Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7140

1 Thursday, 20 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you hear me in a language

10 that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

12 I can hear you and I understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Brdjanin.

14 General Talic, good morning to you too. Can you hear me in a

15 language that you can understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I

17 can hear you in a language that I understand.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, General Talic.

19 Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Anna Richterova and Julian Nicholls for the

21 Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, madam.

23 Appearance for Radoslav Brdjanin.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

25 I'm with my co-counsel, Milan Trbojevic, and Marela Jevtovic.

Page 7141

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Ackerman.

2 And appearances for General Talic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and

4 Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

6 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, as we closed yesterday I told you I

8 wanted the evening to think about some proposals I want to make to you

9 regarding the Witness 52. Your Honours will remember that on Monday I

10 brought to your attention my concern about the apparently closed-ended

11 time that he was scheduled to be here and suggested that once a witness is

12 here that it should be up to Your Honours how long they are here and not

13 the witness himself.

14 We were then told yesterday that the witness must leave and not be

15 here after Tuesday, and therefore we all have to change our lives to

16 accommodate his business interests. And I don't think that is an

17 appropriate situation for us to find ourselves in.

18 On Monday we were handed two fairly large packets of material.

19 Because of other responsibilities regarding this case --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ackerman.

21 Could the usher please inform the witness that once more we have a

22 procedural problem that we are dealing with and that is why we are keeping

23 him waiting. Thank you.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: We were both -- both teams were handed fairly large

25 packets of materials. Because of other responsibilities, I was not able

Page 7142

1 to begin looking at those materials until Wednesday, at which point I

2 discovered that there were two -- three additional transcripts of prior

3 testimony of Witness 52 contained in those materials.

4 On Thursday, when I arrived here, I spoke with Ms. Gustin

5 regarding the B/C/S versions of those transcripts and whether the tapes

6 were ready for our clients to listen to or not, and I was told that they

7 were not ready and she didn't know exactly when they would be ready. But

8 the bottom line is that Mr. Brdjanin has not had an opportunity to listen

9 to the tapes of those three transcripts that were provided to us on

10 Monday.

11 Now, Your Honour, those transcripts are from testimony of 13 and

12 14 May 1999. I cannot imagine how under the -- any conditions at all

13 there's any excuse for waiting until Monday of this week to supply us with

14 those materials and to not have prepared the tapes in B/C/S for our

15 clients. This should have been done before this case started because this

16 witness was known to the Prosecutor and known that this witness was going

17 to be brought here before this case started.

18 So in view of that, I am not of a mind to be very accommodating

19 regarding Ms. Korner's requests of yesterday. I will make to you this

20 proposal, which might solve the problem and might accommodate everyone's

21 needs.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

23 MR. ACKERMAN: No. Let him testify on direct in this Chamber

24 tomorrow and then let the Stakic case have him until -- through Monday and

25 then bring him back here on Tuesday for cross-examination. That is based

Page 7143

1 upon the proposition that the Prosecutor can supply us the tapes that I

2 can get to Mr. Brdjanin by today or tomorrow so I can take instructions

3 from him regarding this.

4 Now, Ms. Korner or the Prosecutor will tell you that there is

5 nothing in these transcripts or the tapes that's relevant to anything that

6 they're going to ask this witness. But very frankly --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What she said yesterday - sorry to interrupt you -

8 was that the events that Mr. McLeod testified upon on those two previous

9 occasions were not in any way related to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- now, whatever. I'm not in a position to confirm

12 or deny that because obviously I have never gone to -- I don't even have

13 the transcripts that you have been given. So --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, yes, Your Honour. And it may very well be

15 the case that once we get through this material, we'll take that same

16 position, but I can't have Ms. Korner deciding what's relevant for the

17 Defence.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Definitely not.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: My client needs to hear this.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither you nor the Tribunal.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: And my proposal would be that, that we have him

22 here on direct tomorrow, that once he's finished his direct that he goes

23 on to the Stakic case or whatever they want to do with him, that he's back

24 here Tuesday for cross-examination. I think that might solve everybody's

25 problem. If it doesn't, then he can come back, you know, when the

Page 7144

1 Prosecution can get him back here, but I don't think we should be forced

2 into a cross-examination tomorrow.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before I -- before we pass on your suggestion

4 to Ms. Richterova for onward -- or onward transmission to Ms. Korner,

5 Mr. Zecevic, would you agree with the suggestion that Mr. Ackerman is

6 putting forward?

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. We do join with the submission

8 of Mr. John Ackerman.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So Ms. Gustin or Ms. Richterova or Mr. Nicholls - I

10 don't know who will be the ambassador amongst you in this particular

11 case - could you convey the suggestion made by Mr. Ackerman and endorsed

12 by Mr. Zecevic to Ms. Korner and -- yes?

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour. We will convey these

14 messages. I think it's possible to --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: In which case, then, you have -- you will need to do

16 two things -- or, rather, three things. First thing, make sure that the

17 first of the other two witnesses, that is 7.135, if I remember well. I

18 may be mistaken in the number, but --

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: 139.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 139. Will give evidence today.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would wish -- I would wish that I

22 manage to finish both these witnesses, because they are talking only about

23 one incident, and I want to focus only, and only on that incident.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's not waste time talking and

25 discussing that.

Page 7145

1 Please convey the suggestion made by Mr. -- by the two Defence

2 teams to Ms. Korner, and if we could have feedback by the first break, I

3 think that would be extremely useful.

4 Next thing I would like you to convey to Ms. Korner, next message,

5 is this: We would like -- we were discussing amongst ourselves, and we

6 would like to be in a position to have a schedule in place right through

7 the end of December. And our suggestion to both sides is to sit together

8 as you did previously and then submit to the Chamber what your preferences

9 would be for breaks, in other words. The only thing that we might come up

10 with is that there may be a couple of dates that we ourselves would

11 require but shouldn't -- I don't think that's going to make any big

12 difference. So please do sit down.

13 If you could come back to us by either Monday or early next week,

14 then we could have the timetable, the time schedule -- the time schedule

15 in place and so that you would know where you stand between now and

16 December.

17 Yes, Mr. Cayley. I see that you must have been watching --

18 MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I was actually walking out

19 of the building and I heard Mr. Ackerman's dulcet tones, and I was

20 listening to what he was saying, and I just wanted to clarify with the

21 Court about these two transcripts, because I was actually involved in one

22 of the two other cases, and they actually have absolutely nothing to do

23 with this case. They're actually concerning another conflict in Bosnia,

24 the Muslim-Croat conflict. And whereas in principle Mr. Ackerman is

25 absolutely right, he should have these materials available to him. I

Page 7146

1 don't think in any way he is going to be prejudiced -- his client is going

2 to be prejudiced by not having the transcripts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cayley, he did not bring up the matter as a

4 casus belli in order to start an argument, because all in all -- I mean,

5 he just made his point but then also made a practical suggestion. So

6 let's concentrate on the practical suggestion and leave the rest,

7 because -- I mean, let's not argue about it.

8 MR. CAYLEY: No. I just wanted to make it clear to the Court that

9 these transcripts are not a problem. And in terms of the practical

10 suggestion, I actually think it's probably quite a good idea.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. So two feedbacks. One today and one as

12 soon as practicable. The one today is whether we are taking up

13 Mr. Ackerman's suggestion regarding Witness 7.52, McLeod. And second

14 feedback coming next week: How do you intend to have -- or what are your

15 preferences for a time schedule for this case between first -- end of

16 August, when we resume, until the end of September [sic] when we go into

17 recess, end of September [sic] when we go into recess in September [sic]

18 anyway. In December, sorry. In December. Okay. Like we did

19 previously. In other words, when you -- beforehand when we were going to

20 have breaks and when we are sitting.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I was thinking about the same thing

22 myself this week. The thing that kept me from starting that on my own was

23 that we don't know when we're returning from the August break.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I can tell you my intention is to start

25 working again the last week of August, because the official break

Page 7147

1 terminates, I think, on the 23rd of August, if I remember well. I'm

2 speaking from memory. The official break of the Tribunal finishes 23rd of

3 August. And my intention was to start on the 26th, if I remember well,

4 which is a Monday, the 26th of August. That would give us the last week

5 of August as the first week after the recess.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: And then the other thing that I don't know is when

7 the December break begins.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The December break -- I think there is a plenary

9 in -- 11th, 12th, something like that, and after that you have the break.

10 More or less I think -- I am on duty starting from the 13th to the 20th of

11 December, so I'll still be enjoying the beautiful weather of The Hague,

12 but I think we would have already started the recess.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But in the meantime, I can have that

15 checked. Ms. Registrar, you can check exactly when the -- there is a

16 document which I have already, which was circulated in the beginning of

17 the year -- so that we can give the information.

18 The witness. You can bring him in, please.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Good morning to you,

21 Mr. Biscevic, hoping that this will be your last day in --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, to you Mr. Biscevic, hoping that this

24 will be your last day in this Tribunal.

25 Once more please proceed with making the -- entering the same

Page 7148

1 solemn declaration as before. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: FAIK BISCEVIC [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You my sit down. Thank you.

7 Mr. Zecevic.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Biscevic.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. Yesterday before we adjourned we were speaking about the 20th of

13 April. Do you remember?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. 1992.

16 Could you tell me, after that incident in Sanski Most there

17 weren't any other large-scale incidents until the 25th of May; isn't that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. However, the situation in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina

21 had dramatically -- or was dramatically deteriorating from the 20th of

22 April to the 25th of May, during that period.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On the 1st of May, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was arrested, and on the

25 3rd of May, a column in Sarajevo was attacked in Dobrovoljacka Street a

Page 7149

1 column was attacked. 160 and 200 people were wounded in an ambush. You

2 know about all these things, don't you?

3 A. More or less.

4 Q. Tell me, Mr. Biscevic, you said that on the 27th of May you were

5 arrested and then taken to the area of the village of Magarice; isn't that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Before the 27th of May, you were in that village Magarice or

9 not -- were you in that village or not?

10 A. No, I wasn't.

11 Q. On that occasion, on the 27th of May, you were taken there -- he

12 took you there and he showed you the town and he said, "Look, can you see

13 what you did?"

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigators of the

16 Tribunal in 1997 and 1999, you said that at the time he was thinking of

17 the Party of Democratic Action.

18 A. Yes. When he told that to me he was thinking of the party in

19 particular.

20 Q. In that same statement, on page 00838010 you said in your

21 statement of 1997 and 1999, you said the following. I'll read it out in

22 English and it will be translated to you.

23 [In English] "Major Vukic was Basara's deputy. He had come from

24 Tuzla where he used to serve as an active-duty JNA officer. Vukic told me

25 that he had come from Tuzla when he interrogated me after my arrest. He

Page 7150

1 was born in the village of Dabar in the vicinity of Sanski Most and that

2 is why Vukic came to Sanski Most. He had to leave Tuzla after the

3 Bosnians forced the JNA to leave Tuzla."

4 [Interpretation] Do you remember giving this statement?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And you stand by what you said?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. The major told you this on that occasion, on the 27th of May, or

9 did he tell you something before that date, if you can remember?

10 A. That was at the time we were in that curing hut, and then he told

11 me, "I'm from Tuzla. I've been expelled. I've come to Sanski Most."

12 Whether it's Branko Vukic, I don't know. But from those two villages

13 somewhere in Sanski Most.

14 Q. Thank you. Tell me, yesterday you told us that at some time there

15 was -- there were groups of paramilitary formations of the army.

16 A. All the Serbian people were armed.

17 Q. Do you know that members of other nationalities were armed?

18 A. They weren't armed in Sanski Most.

19 Q. So when you say that "they weren't armed," you want to say that

20 they weren't armed in Sanski Most, in the Sanska Valley, in Sanski Most.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know of a paramilitary formation called the SOS? We

23 mentioned them yesterday.

24 A. Yes. Yes, I've heard about this formation.

25 Q. Are you aware of the Patriotic League?

Page 7151

1 A. Yes, I am.

2 Q. That was also a paramilitary formation.

3 A. I don't know what it was. I know that it was the Patriotic

4 League, that this was established. But what happened to that Patriotic

5 League, what it did, I don't know. But I know that it existed.

6 Q. The Patriotic League was a military formation, wasn't it?

7 A. I don't know. It was formed in Sarajevo. I don't know whether it

8 was a military or civil organisation.

9 Q. Do you know whether on the 11th of June, 1992 a great meeting of

10 the headquarters of the Patriotic League was held in Dosici Nikolecija

11 [phoen], and it was attended by presidents of the municipalities and

12 municipal organisations of the SDA?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Very well. The people who belonged, such private army formations,

15 paramilitary formations, or groups of armed men, they didn't

16 participate -- they weren't included in any official military or police

17 units, were they?

18 A. Yes, they were.

19 Q. In what sense?

20 A. That was a legal army which had been issued weapons and uniforms,

21 and later it was part of a particular party, the SDS or the SOS or the

22 command of the 6th Corps. These were all armed formations and they had

23 various branches and belonged to certain parties. But they were all armed

24 and they had illegally been issued weapons. They had received these

25 weapons legally from the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

Page 7152

1 Q. And tell me -- could you tell me how you know this?

2 A. It was common practice in the last -- in the most recent days, the

3 helicopters come from the Banja Luka area. They would land in Serbian

4 villages, and they would distribute weapons.

5 And a second -- well, it wasn't a secret but it was something that

6 was publicly known. Mico Krunic was given a bus. He took the windows out

7 and covered them with tin sheets and took weapons to villages, Serbian

8 villages, and distributed these people to the Serbian villages on a daily

9 basis.

10 My son had a girlfriend in a village, in a settlement, in our

11 settlement where the majority of the population that was Serbian. They

12 received flats which they -- in which they lived. The mother of his

13 girlfriend said -- her neighbour said that on that night, every Serbian

14 flat had to put a window in the -- a candle in the window, and that was a

15 sign that the house was a Serbian one, and then they would distribute

16 weapons. We didn't believe that because that was a little earlier on.

17 But later on, it proved to be true.

18 Q. If I have understood you correctly -- if I have understood you

19 correctly, what you have just told us, you saw none of this personally.

20 You heard about this.

21 A. I saw Mico Krunic. I was watching every day, and I could see the

22 helicopters every day with my own eyes. I wasn't there when helicopters

23 arrived in the Serbian village and distributed weapons, but I saw the

24 helicopter-- helicopters, and I knew why it had arrived.

25 Q. Very well. Tell me, around that time many people put on uniforms

Page 7153

1 for no particular reason?

2 A. If they had a uniform, maybe they put it on. It wasn't necessary,

3 because they had uniforms which had been legally issued to them. So they

4 could put them on.

5 Q. In your statement you said, in your statement of 1995 which you

6 gave in the court in Sanski Most, you said that Vlado Vrkes, the President

7 of the SDS, had been going there recently. I think you're referring to

8 the period before the 25th of May. You said that he would come to the

9 meetings in the municipality wearing a uniform and carrying a weapon. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes. He came to our meetings in uniform and he had a revolver.

12 We laughed at him and joked about it with him. We didn't think it was

13 anything in particular, but he was very official. He said, "This is the

14 weapon I have been issued with, and I carry it with me quite legally

15 throughout the day and throughout the town." And it wasn't just Vlado

16 Vrkes but other leaders at the time. They had weapons.

17 Q. You also told us yesterday that Rajkica Stanic, a Judge from

18 Sanski Most, had put on a uniform and acted as some sort of a coordinator,

19 didn't you?

20 A. No, he didn't act as a coordinator. He was literate. He was an

21 attorney, and he worked as a civilian in the court in Sanski Most. When

22 the war came, in my opinion all those people working in MUP were not of

23 the same profession. They were not qualified. So he would come and go

24 and talk to the interrogator. He wasn't acting or pretending to be a

25 coordinator but he was the coordinator because of his qualifications.

Page 7154

1 Q. Tell me, please, before April and May 1992, there were no

2 stationary garrison of the JNA in Sanski Most, was there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When on the 27th of May you were taken to the village of Magarice

5 or the area of the village of Magarice, as far as you know, was there any

6 kind of a permanent military facility there, a warehouse or something like

7 that, before that, before the 27th of May?

8 A. There was nothing permanent there before or after that, but the

9 6th Corps came. They took the weapons into the meadow. There were boxes

10 of weapons piled up, and there were mortars and there was a provisional

11 canteen, and the soldiers were sleeping in the stables or around there.

12 There was nothing organised. It wasn't prepared in advance. It was as it

13 was before.

14 Q. So we will agree that this was a kind of provisional camp?

15 A. Yes, provisional.

16 Q. You told us yesterday -- I'm sorry, the day before yesterday, that

17 you were taken that same day to the radio station where you read out a

18 statement that had been prepared and which we heard the day before played

19 in this courtroom. Isn't at that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I should like to read to you a part of that statement of yours if

22 you remember. We heard it the day before yesterday. On page 10 of the

23 Serbian version of the transcript -- of the statement, or page 6 of the

24 English version, the last three sentences which in English begins, "That

25 is why we are prepared...." I'm going to read it to you in Serbian.

Page 7155

1 "That is why we are prepared, on the orders of the Serb armed

2 forces, to come out before our people and to be judged by our people in

3 the next few days. I assure you that the command of the Serbian armed

4 forces which is carrying out the armed activities in Sanski Most was

5 forced into such behaviour by our lies and sycophancy." End of quote.

6 Do you remember reading that out on that occasion in Sanski Most,

7 in Radio Sanski Most?

8 A. I don't know what I read, but I heard it yesterday.

9 Q. You heard it yesterday on a tape?

10 A. Yes. I heard my voice.

11 Q. Tell me, for the needs of this Court and people who don't speak

12 our language, the abbreviation for "Serbian armed forces" is SOS, is it

13 not, S-O-S?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me, please, as far as you know, this statement that you read

16 in Radio Sanski Most on that day, did it have any effect in the sense that

17 you had made a call for weapons to be surrendered? Did it have any effect

18 at all, if you know?

19 A. I don't know, but the JNA knew exactly what they were doing. They

20 knew that I was very influential in Sanski Most, that I come from a

21 wealthy, noble family, a dentist, a jeweller in Sanski Most, highly

22 influential. And the Muslims and Croats, some of them at least, believed

23 what they heard, and those that hadn't surrendered their weapons until

24 then did so.

25 Q. Tell me, please, after this did you go to the Radio Sanski Most on

Page 7156

1 any other occasion to read statements, different statements? Do you

2 remember that, any other statement?

3 A. The major, whatever his name was, Brajic or Vukic, in Magarice

4 spoke to me. Now, whether he taped that or not, I don't know, but I

5 didn't go to the radio station again. But I did hear myself, in prison,

6 speaking on Radio Sana, and then I realised that everything had been taped

7 and that they aired it even though I was in prison.

8 Q. So if I understand you correctly, your conversation with this

9 major or some other person was taped and, after that, broadcast.

10 A. I don't know that. Probably. If there was any other statement,

11 then it was probably taped.

12 Q. I'm going to read out to you from the same transcript of the

13 audiotape that we heard the day before yesterday on page 01907762 of the

14 English version and the B/C/S version, 01104887. This is P827 A. And it

15 says the following:

16 "Male voice: Muslims and Croats to hand over their legal and

17 illegal weapons to the Serbian authorities, not to fall prey to Muslim or

18 Croat extremists, nor to the tale they tell, because that would lead to

19 the large-scale suffering of innocent people. We have now shown who and

20 what we are, accusing and blaming one another. Our people have seen

21 through us and don't trust us any longer. That is why I ask you to

22 respond to the legitimate Serbian army and authorities. The Serbian army

23 has already made a few announcements and has given us the opportunity to

24 surrender, so please heed the appeal and hand over your weapons to the

25 commander of the Serbian army, where I have been staying for two days now

Page 7157

1 and I am personally convinced that it is the most humane army I have ever

2 met," et cetera.

3 The last sentence: "Announcement written by Faik Biscevic."

4 Mr. Biscevic, do you remember writing a proclamation of this

5 kind?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Tell me please, so you don't know whether your statement produced

8 any result, or rather, both of these statements, all these statements,

9 whether it had any effect in terms of the surrender of weapons by Muslims

10 and Croats, do you?

11 A. How could I know, when I was in prison?

12 Q. I mean did you learn later after being released from prison? Did

13 anyone tell you about it, that they heeded what you said in your

14 announcement on the radio, if you know?

15 A. I do know very well. They didn't need to heed anyone. The

16 practice of the Yugoslav People's Army was to go to Muslim and Croat

17 villages and their streets and to collect or round up the population, to

18 separate men to one side, women to another. And anyone found after that

19 would be executed, because on that first day 43 civilians were killed in

20 Sanski Most who were in hospitals and their apartments. They were

21 collected on the third day and buried in a mass grave at the cemetery in

22 Sanski Most. Therefore, my statement had the least effect on them because

23 they had no chance of surrendering anything. They simply had to. They

24 were simply rounded up.

25 Q. Mr. Biscevic, I asked you in connection with weapons. My question

Page 7158

1 was related to weapons. So could you please answer that for me. You've

2 already explained this whole procedure. I was just asking you about the

3 weapons. Did your statement have any effect on the Muslims and Croats to

4 surrender their weapons, if you know?

5 A. I told you. I was in prison, so how could I know?

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Just bear with me, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. My colleague is telling me that all that you said a moment ago

10 also happened while you were in prison, yet you are aware of it, whereas

11 you are not aware of what I am asking you about.

12 A. I don't understand your question. Would you rephrase it, please.

13 Q. I'll tell you just in a minute. You spoke about the practice of

14 the Yugoslav People's Army, and this was in response to my question about

15 weapons. You spoke about the practice of the Yugoslav People's Army and

16 said that on that first day, 43 civilians were killed in Sanski Most, that

17 they were rounded up on the third day and -- sorry, collected and buried

18 in a mass grave at the cemetery in Sanski Most. So my question is: Since

19 at that point in time you were under arrest, you were in detention, you

20 were in prison when all this was going on, so how is it you know about

21 this?

22 A. After my release.

23 Q. Very well, Mr. Biscevic. After spending some 30 hours with the

24 army, as you told us, you were transferred to the MUP building in Sanski

25 Most. That's right, isn't it?

Page 7159

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you spent 95 days there, until the 27th of August, 1992 when

3 the police transferred you to Manjaca and handed you over to them there.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell me please, during this period of detention in Sanski Most,

6 you were guarded by members of the police, were you not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your statement of 1997 and 1999 you said that they wore police

9 uniforms and that Bosko Kuzmanovic, an active policeman, was their

10 commander. That's right, isn't it?

11 A. Bosko Kuzmanovic was one of the shift leaders.

12 Q. Very well. The police was escorting all people to Manjaca, wasn't

13 it?

14 A. Yes. They were transported by vehicles and escorted by the

15 police, yes.

16 Q. In your particular case, on the 27th of August when you reached

17 Manjaca, it was only at the entrance to Manjaca that the police handed you

18 over to the officers of Republika Srpska; isn't that right?

19 A. The official police had no access to the Manjaca camp, the

20 complex; only outside.

21 Q. If I understand you correctly, so this was happening at the very

22 entrance to the camp, at the fence.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you were handed over to the officers and soldiers of

25 Republika Srpska under their competence; isn't that so?

Page 7160

1 A. Yes. The bus went as far as the gate on the outside. It

2 stopped. We got off, lined up four by four, and waited to enter. And as

3 soon as we entered, the police had nothing more to do with us.

4 Q. Thank you. Tell me please, on the 15th of November, when you were

5 released, the situation was the same, wasn't it? The procedure was the

6 same.

7 A. No.

8 Q. I mean that the Army of Republika Srpska went as far as the

9 fence --

10 A. No. When we were released, 12 buses came. I was in the fourth or

11 fifth. A representative of the International Community was with us on the

12 bus. And the escort, the security of the buses -- I didn't pay

13 attention. I don't know who provided the escort.

14 Q. Now, let me go back to the time you spent in Sanski Most. During

15 your detention in Sanski Most, that was in the remand custody. You were

16 held in remand custody, were you not?

17 A. Maybe you know that as a professional. We know that we had

18 special treatment. We were under lock and key. The shift leader was

19 responsible for us and he was the only one allowed to unlock and lock the

20 gates, according to the regulations.

21 Q. So let me rephrase the question, make myself clearer. Do you know

22 that the purpose of the premises in which you were kept from the, shall I

23 say, the 29th of May until the 27th of August, 1992 in Sanski Most - even

24 before May 1992 - was as an investigating prison or detention on remand?

25 That is what it was used for. I am talking about the building.

Page 7161

1 A. I don't know how you call it. We know that it was the city

2 prison.

3 Q. A municipal prison in your view implies a prison attached to the

4 police station in Sanski Most.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know that the conditions that you found there in that

7 prison, the city prison, as you call it, in May 1992 were the same even

8 before 1992?

9 A. I was never imprisoned.

10 Q. I was just asking you whether you know.

11 A. I was never imprisoned.

12 Q. In the course of your time in those cells, other persons were

13 brought there, the perpetrators of some criminal acts; isn't that right?

14 A. Some were coming, others going, on a daily basis almost. So what

15 was going on, I don't know.

16 Q. You told us yesterday in transcript page 22, line 10 to 13 that on

17 one occasion a Serb soldier had been brought in who activated a hand

18 grenade who was afterwards beaten for as long as he could speak. That's

19 right, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Also yesterday, on the unofficial transcript, on page 19, lines 11

22 to 15, you explained that running water in that building of the city

23 prison in Sanski Most did not exist because of lack of electricity, and

24 the fact that the water supply system worked in such a way that the pumps

25 pumped the water up to higher levels and these provided the city with

Page 7162

1 water.

2 Tell me, please, this system, water supply system, was the water

3 supply system, wasn't it? The whole town was provided with water in the

4 same way?

5 A. Yes, in the same way.

6 Q. Which means that no citizens of Sanski Most could have water when

7 there was no electricity. That's right, isn't it?

8 A. Yes, no one could.

9 Q. Tell me, please, yesterday while you were testifying in answer to

10 a question from the Prosecution, you described in detail the appearance of

11 the room in which you were held, and among other things, you said that

12 there was sheet steel on the window with small holes drilled into it of

13 four millimetres each, so that there wasn't enough air in the room. Do

14 you remember that?

15 A. Not about four millimetres but exactly four millimetres. And

16 those holes were made by Redzo Kurbegovic, as he was an expert. And he

17 did this before the war. And we joked with him and said, "How could you

18 have made such tiny holes?"

19 So it is true. There was a sheet steel cover, and the holes

20 drilled in it were of four millimetres diameter.

21 Yes, it was fixed so that the room was hermetically closed,

22 probably to prevent anyone from escaping. But it was placed there, as we

23 heard, just in case anyone would want to throw in a hand grenade. So the

24 sheet steel was fixed very firmly, and there was no air as a result.

25 Q. You say that this was hermetically --

Page 7163

1 A. It was nailed in, nailed in.

2 Q. So light, sound could hardly penetrate those tiny holes.

3 A. As this window was to the east, in the morning there would be some

4 light. And after 11.00 it was semi-darkness. And in the afternoon, it

5 was total darkness.

6 Q. Was it also difficult to hear anything?

7 A. There was no glass, and one could hear much better than if there

8 were glass panes. The doors were metal, so one could hear through that

9 too. And people spoke in a normal loud voice. There was no need to

10 whisper, so that things could be heard.

11 Q. I'm asking you all this because yesterday, at one point in time

12 you said that as far as you knew, soldiers, upon returning from the front,

13 were lined up on a plateau close to the city prison where you were being

14 detained. Do you remember saying that?

15 A. Not a plateau but a soccer field that was separated from the

16 prison by a wall. There was a football pitch.

17 Q. How do you know, then, that they were lined up on this football

18 field? Did you see that?

19 A. We heard the officers making speeches, distributing decorations,

20 appraising certain combatants, whether they would cheer. When Lieutenant

21 Colonel Basara would say something then they would cheer. Then there

22 would be shooting. There was just a wall separating the two.

23 Q. I'm just asking you whether you saw this or not.

24 A. I told you nicely. We heard it. We couldn't see when it was not

25 possible to see.

Page 7164

1 Q. Tell me, please, sir, while you were in this investigating prison,

2 you told us that you were questioned about supplies of weapons for the

3 SDA, didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Questions also had to do with collecting funds for the purchase of

6 weapons?

7 A. There was no question about money.

8 Q. Yesterday you mentioned, if I remember correctly, that the

9 investigator, Mima Dosenovic in those days, asked you in connection with

10 some debt that you had to another fellow citizen of yours. Do you

11 remember that?

12 A. Alagic, photographer, is my neighbour, and I borrowed some money

13 from him which I didn't pay back for a certain period of time. He said

14 this in a restaurant, and an informer heard this and told Mima. And then

15 he said, "You see, you had money for weapons." But this money was

16 something I needed to do a general service for my car.

17 Q. My question was precisely whether Mima Dosenovic had asked but the

18 collection of money for weapons. Your answer was no, so I've just

19 reminded you. So he did ask you about collecting funds for weapons,

20 because he thought that the money you had borrowed from your fellow

21 citizen was allegedly being used for the purchase of weapons; isn't that

22 right?

23 A. Yes. He specifically mentioned Riza Alagic because he knew

24 exactly who the money had been borrowed from.

25 Q. Tell me Mr. Biscevic, please, whether you really did procure

Page 7165

1 weapons for the SDA or not.

2 A. What do you mean?

3 Q. I'm asking you whether you procured weapons for the Party of

4 Democratic Action in Sanski Most. Yes or no.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Tell me, please, you told us that when this statement was being

7 taken from you that you were first beaten by the investigator

8 Mima Dosenovic, who was a policeman, and another person who kept -- who

9 wrote the record, and then two men in uniform whom you didn't know and who

10 came with this Rajkica Stanisic. Is that right?

11 A. They didn't come with Rajkica, but they came in when Mima came

12 out. And Rajko came when Mima was there, and he would talk to Mima. He

13 didn't beat people, he just talked to Mima. He didn't talk to me and he

14 just went off. And the soldiers came in after Mima left. They didn't say

15 anything.

16 Q. Tell me, please, these two persons who were wearing military

17 uniforms and whom you didn't know, do you remember what kind of uniforms

18 they were wearing?

19 A. They all wore those camouflage uniforms.

20 Q. When you say "everyone," who are you referring to?

21 A. They had camouflage uniforms of the Serbian army. As they were

22 wearing shirts, they had short-sleeved shirts. It was summertime.

23 Q. I'm asking you about these two men. What sort of uniforms were

24 they wearing?

25 A. These two men too, camouflage uniforms, military uniforms.

Page 7166

1 Q. Did they have some sort of insignia on those uniforms?

2 A. They had some sort of mark here and they had some sort of tags.

3 Whether they had them at the moment -- whether those two men had them, I

4 don't know. I wasn't looking. But all soldiers had some sort of

5 insignia, yellow, green, white insignia. What it was exactly, I don't

6 know, but they had this on the soldier.

7 Q. When you say "tag," do you mean bands of some kind?

8 A. Yes. A sort of band which is tied here. A sort of braid. And it

9 would be tied here on the epaulettes.

10 Q. In different countries --

11 A. Yes. It wasn't sewed in. It would be tied -- tied up, perhaps so

12 that it would be possible to change it.

13 Q. Mr. Biscevic, we'll finish this very rapidly now. Tell me, you

14 were taken to Manjaca on the 27th of August, 1992; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you do your military service in the former JNA? Did you serve

17 in the former JNA?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Where and when?

20 A. In Ljubljana and in Sarajevo. I was a part of the medical corps.

21 I was a reserve officer in the medical corps when I finished -- towards

22 the end of my service in the army.

23 Q. Could you tell me what year that was.

24 A. It was in 1963. That's when I was a Second Lieutenant in the

25 medical corps.

Page 7167

1 Q. As a reserve officer in the medical corps, you are surely aware of

2 the procedure for bringing recruits to do their military service.

3 A. Yes, I am.

4 Q. They go for a medical check-up, they're registered, and then they

5 are given accommodation; isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So that is a very similar to the procedure through which you went

8 when on the 27th of August, 1992 you arrived in Manjaca. I am referring

9 to the medical check-up, being registered and being provided with -- being

10 provided with accommodation.

11 A. No, it's not at all the same. How could it be the same?

12 Q. Very well. Tell me, from Manjaca -- you were released on the 15th

13 of November, 1992 from Manjaca; isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the statement you gave here, you mentioned a certain boy who

16 was underage, someone from your town - I assume that was Sanski Most - and

17 you said that he was a retarded boy and his name was Senad Kalic; isn't

18 that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. According to the list that we have, the person with that name was

21 pardoned by decision of the main headquarters of the Republika Srpska and

22 he was released on the same day as you, on the 14th of November, 1992.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You remember that, don't you?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 7168

1 Q. But the only thing that doesn't agree with this is that according

2 to the list, Senad Kalic was born in 1992.

3 THE INTERPRETER: 1962. Correction.

4 A. I don't know what you mean by that.

5 Q. I want to mean that in 1992 he was 30 years old. He wasn't

6 underage. He wasn't a minor.

7 A. Excellent. That confirms what I said, because my father was over

8 50 and they had no other solution other than to send him with his -- send

9 him away with his father. That was the only solution. They didn't know

10 what they would do with him without his father.

11 Q. I'm just asking you whether you allow for the possibility that

12 this boy was not a minor. You said he was retarded. I'm only asking you

13 whether it is possible that the boy in question was not a minor, since on

14 the basis of the documents that we have that person, who has that name

15 from Sanski Most, he was born in 1962, which means that in August 1992 he

16 was about 30 years old.

17 A. You are playing with words. It is a custom among us to say that a

18 retarded person is -- has a child's mind. But although he was 30 years

19 old, they released him as if he were a child of ten years old. For what

20 were they to do with him, because he was less than a minor. That is

21 probably why he was released. It was an exception of sorts.

22 Q. We have solved that. Obviously they didn't understand you,

23 because in the -- in the transcript it said "a minor." It didn't say

24 "someone who was retarded." Thank you, Mr. Biscevic.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

Page 7169

1 Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: First, I didn't want to interrupt the

5 cross-examination, but for the record could he -- could counsel state what

6 list he was referring to, what document he was reading from.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to know what he means by "this list of

9 names we have."

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not a list of names. It's

11 something that we verified. Our investigators verified this. And

12 according to the name that the witness gave to us, we've verified the

13 facts relating to this person.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with that, Mr. Nicholls?

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I would like to see the list --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But she's telling you there was no list --

17 she verified -- the mentioning of a list was obviously a mistake.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 Yes. Mr. Biscevic, you're now going to be cross-examined by

21 Mr. Trbojevic, who is co-counsel for Mr. Brdjanin. Thank you. And again,

22 same recommendation, allow a pause, because Mr. Trbojevic has exactly the

23 same problem that Mr. Zecevic has. Thank you.

24 Go ahead, please.

25 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7170

1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's okay.

4 Go ahead, please.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Biscevic, you said that were -- are a

7 politician, a political leader.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said that after the multi-party elections, together with the

10 SDS and HDZ you formed a coalition government in Sanski Most.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If we assume that at one of those many meetings that you had on

13 the agenda was the formation of these authorities. That's -- would that

14 be a correct assumption?

15 A. Absolutely.

16 Q. At the beginning of 1991, those authorities started functioning.

17 A. Immediately after the multi-party elections.

18 Q. In the course of 1991, there were political differences among

19 these parties.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In your statement, you didn't go into details, you didn't explain

22 this in detail, you didn't explain these differences in detail.

23 A. Was it -- would it have been necessary to explain anything?

24 Q. I'm asking you whether you would agree with me that one of the

25 main differences was the fact that the political position of the SDA was

Page 7171

1 that Bosnia and Herzegovina should separate from Yugoslavia, and the SDS's

2 position was that it should remain within Yugoslavia, that Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina should remain within Yugoslavia.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you agree with me?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. These were the themes of the referendum, of the plebiscite?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And this resulted in absolutely and totally

10 contradictory positions -- contrary positions on the part of these

11 parties.

12 A. Well, that wasn't so much an obstacle. It wasn't so prominent at

13 the time. But it became prominent later.

14 Q. After the 6th of April, when the independence of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina had been declared, it was practically no longer possible to

16 work together, to follow a common direction.

17 A. We nevertheless discussed matters in Sanski Most and we would

18 meet.

19 Q. Would I be right to say that at the time talks about a possible

20 division of the territory commenced, of the division of institutions, et

21 cetera?

22 A. Yes. There were discussions, but towards the end in May, when

23 everything had collapsed, then people started talking about dividing the

24 municipality.

25 Q. And these discussions finished with that situation when the police

Page 7172

1 force was divided. The Serbian police remained in the police building and

2 the Muslim force in the municipality building.

3 A. When the police station was taken over, then the Serbian Sanski

4 Most was declared. And when the municipality building was attacked, then

5 all ties were severed, and that's when it finished.

6 Q. Do you agree with me that the war events in Slovenia and Croatia,

7 which happened a little before the events we are talking about, would you

8 agree that these affected, in an important manner, the events in Sanski

9 Most?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I mean the fact that some of the police were mobilised and there

12 weren't as many who were within the police force. I'm referring to the

13 return of armed reservists with their weapons. And I'm also thinking of

14 the decision on the part of the SDA that Muslims should no longer go and

15 join the JNA.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yesterday, you told us that the cause of that decision by the

18 Party of Democratic Action not to join the JNA any longer, the cause of

19 this decision was the fact that there were Muslim soldiers who had been

20 killed, who had been killed by being shot in the back.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Don't you think that the political position of the SDA was more

23 important, more important than certain individual cases if such cases had

24 occurred?

25 A. You are right. As far as the individuals are concerned, those who

Page 7173

1 returned and who were killed, we couldn't do much about that. That was a

2 matter for the army. But our position was that if anyone had to go from

3 Sanski Most, they should remain in Sanski Most, not go to Croatia.

4 Q. But that decision was taken in Sarajevo, wasn't it, without the --

5 without the presence of the Serbian members?

6 A. Yes. By the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina without the

7 Serbian members.

8 Q. I'd like to return to the beginning. On page 2 of the statement

9 that you gave to the investigators of the Prosecution, when you spoke

10 about important people, people who were important for the situation, you

11 started with Rasula, and you said that you went to school together, et

12 cetera. You said he was a -- he was a pro-Serb. What were you referring

13 to exactly when you side that he was a pro-Serb and that he was in favour

14 of the Serbian cause?

15 A. The monument to his father -- on the monument to his father, he

16 said, "My father was killed by state enemies." You can see that to this

17 very day. It hasn't been destroyed. Whenever anything had to happen, was

18 to happen between the Muslims and the Serbs, he would be the one in

19 charge. When he graduated in Sanski Most, Avdo Umcanin was the director

20 of the secondary school. And as soon as he came with his brother Sofia

21 and Slobodan - I don't know what the name is - they just replaced Avdo,

22 retired him summarily, and then Rasula became the director because he

23 thought the director of a secondary school had to be a Serb.

24 Q. You said that Rasula sought -- provided the Serbs who had

25 graduated with important positions.

Page 7174

1 A. That was common practice then. It wasn't common practice then,

2 but always later on most personnel would come from the village. And in

3 the town we also had graduated professionals but these professionals

4 weren't able to take up important posts. The custom in our place was that

5 if you wanted to be a politician, you should finish political school and

6 then you would become an official because that was a condition to hold

7 such a post.

8 Q. I understand that. There's a certain lack of tolerance on the

9 local level between the town and the village.

10 A. Yes. More or less that's how it was.

11 Q. But if on page 4 of this same statement you told us that before

12 the war the police in Sanski Most was about -- 90 [Realtime transcript

13 read in error "09"] per cent of the police was Serb and the leader was

14 Salko Coric. Doesn't that indicate that the leading positions were

15 important and occupied by Muslims too, even in such a situation where a

16 large number -- we say that if someone had -- it was just for show, to

17 show people that it was mixed up. Salko Coric was a communist, and a

18 condition for him to hold that post was for him to be a communist. So

19 that means that he had severed ties with Muslims, with religion, et

20 cetera. Then he would assume such a post. And this was just for show.

21 Q. So that was the -- those were the policies at the time.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, in the beginning of your

23 question the transcript says "09 per cent of the police were Serb." In

24 actual fact, I heard the interpretation say "90 per cent." Just for the

25 record. It's corrected then later on, but I think for the record we need

Page 7175

1 to clarify it. Thank you.

2 You may proceed Mr. Trbojevic, please.

3 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be

4 shown P832 , Exhibit P832.

5 Q. It's a record of the release of your son from Manjaca, and you

6 have had it in your hands already. It says: "Record on the release of

7 someone from Manjaca, of the release of a person from the Manjaca

8 Prisoners of War Camp."

9 Have you found it?

10 A. Yes, I have.

11 Q. Could you please read the following sentence?

12 A. "On the basis of an order from Colonel Stevo Bogojevic, Biscevic

13 Nedim, son of Faik, is being released from the Sanski Most camp."

14 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] You can remove that. There is

15 nothing of interest for me in this document any more.

16 Q. From the very first day, we spoke about the notes that you had

17 before you. You told us that you had made notes, so I assume -- so you

18 will be able to give a fuller and more detailed testimony here. Am I

19 correct?

20 A. Absolutely.

21 Q. And if I suggested that you should provide us with these notes and

22 provide the Trial Chamber with these notes too so that they could examine

23 them, what would you say to that?

24 A. I was going to ask the Trial Chamber at the end. After the

25 cross-examination, I was going to ask them to read out these notes so that

Page 7176

1 you could hear them and the Trial Chamber, but it's no problem to

2 photocopy them.

3 Q. Well, I will finish then.

4 A. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls, is there re-examination?

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please proceed.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: I would say for the record, though, it's my

9 recollection the witness used the notes for one question to refresh his

10 memory --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I was not going to raise the matter at all because

12 to -- from what I could observe, and I do keep my eyes open, as you may

13 have noticed to now, he was not referring to the notes. But he's

14 volunteering these notes, and I have no problems if there is no problems

15 forthcoming from your part.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: I just don't think that it's necessary for that

17 there's any point, because he did not refer to those notes. He's referred

18 from his own memory. He's referred from his -- he's used his recollection

19 to give evidence. That's the evidence which is before the Tribunal.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: His expectation, Mr. Nicholls, is that he be given

21 time to even make declarations based on those notes. So if we could avoid

22 wasting time which is precious for Madam Richterova today, I would rather

23 prefer proceeding the way I suggested.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. In the meantime, unless you need them

Page 7177

1 now, Mr. Biscevic, we can have them photocopied now so that you take the

2 originals back with you when you leave the courtroom.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are no problems, but I would

4 just like to ask you: It's just two pages. Could I read it out in front

5 of you? Could I read out what I think is the most important and then you

6 can take it?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Your wish will be granted, but Mr. Nicholls.

8 Please finish with your re-examination. We have five minutes. I

9 really would like to finish with this witness within --

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it may help if I say why I'm here,

11 because I think this may take some of the pressure off. I heard what was

12 said earlier -- or I was sent an e-mail. Your Honour, it seems to me that

13 there's only, at the moment, one realistic way of proceeding. I would ask

14 Your Honour to sit all day tomorrow whatever hours it requires for this

15 purpose. Ms. Richterova can deal with the witness. Both witnesses need

16 to give evidence before Mr. McLeod, apparently, and I accept that. The --

17 I think we could start -- we will do Mr. McLeod certainly in chief. And I

18 would ask that if we're sitting all day, whoever is cross-examining first

19 cross-examines and then we'll see where we are at the end of tomorrow.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: My position hasn't changed, Your Honour. I think

22 we do Mr. McLeod on direct and cross-examination on Tuesday, and I still

23 think that's a sensible suggestion.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's not possible. That's why I said

25 that. The reason is because there is still and will be still for part of

Page 7178

1 Monday a witness part heard in the Stakic case. We're just having to

2 proceed on the ordinary basis. There's no reason, in our submission, why

3 the Defence, if there is time and the witness is finished in chief, should

4 not begin cross-examination.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I've already told you the reasons this

6 morning, Your Honour, and I think they're valid. Materials were given us

7 on Monday. There is not a B/C/S version of those materials yet in the

8 hands on my client. I can't take instructions. I was going to meet with

9 him Friday morning. I had scheduled a meeting between 10.00 and 12.00

10 Friday morning. That's now being taken away because Ms. Korner wants us

11 to sit all day on Friday. And so the next opportunity I would have to

12 meet with him would be on Monday. And that would mean that I couldn't

13 possibly do my cross-examination until Tuesday. And if the witness has to

14 stay here through Wednesday, that's -- that's just the way it is.

15 MS. KORNER: No.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry that he has business problems, but he's

17 here now under the control of the Trial Chamber and he should remain here

18 until the Trial Chamber is satisfied --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, Ms. Korner, let's finish with this

20 witness first, because I don't think it's proper that we discuss these

21 things in his presence, in any case.

22 MS. KORNER: No. I -- Your Honour, I agree. But can I make it

23 absolutely clear there is no question, as Mr. Ackerman says, of this

24 witness being kept here on Wednesday. This witness has given up a lot of

25 time to come and assist the Court. He has said that he has to be back for

Page 7179

1 that and he won't be here, if that's what the situation is.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If necessary, he will come again. I mean, it won't

3 be the first time.

4 But anyway, let's finish with this witness. Re-examination,

5 please.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Nicholls:

8 Q. Mr. Biscevic, Defence counsel for General Talic read out an

9 additional part of the radio -- the tape-recording transcript and asked

10 you whether or not you had read the portion attributed to you and you said

11 that you did not. I'd like to read you the following section. This is on

12 page 10 of the English translation.

13 It begins at the top: "Female voice: We have received

14 information on seized and returned weapons from Husmovci settlement. A

15 successful operation by the 6th Krajina Brigade and the operative efforts

16 of the Sanski Most public security station on 26, 27, and 28 May of this

17 year have resulted in the seizure of illegally owned weapons and a large

18 amount of ammunition," and it continues.

19 Is that -- did you hear any broadcast of this type which referred

20 specifically to the involvement of the 6th Krajina Brigade in disarming

21 the population of Sanski Most?

22 A. Nothing in particular. No, I didn't hear it. They had their

23 plan. For each particular area they would designate a military officer

24 with a truck. A date and time would be given for collecting the weapons.

25 And how it was actually done, I don't know.

Page 7180

1 Q. Okay. And very briefly when you refer to "they" in the answer

2 you've just given, who are you speaking about? "They had their plan."

3 A. The 6th Krajina Brigade and the JNA.

4 Q. Thank you. You were also questioned and asked about who was

5 guarding you when you were in the MUP, and you confirmed that it was

6 police. Just to clarify, did you not also say yesterday that soldiers in

7 uniform would enter the MUP and beat you and other prisoners there?

8 A. Yes, correct. It was customary, because working hours were until

9 2.00 p.m. There was a joint building shared by the police and the army.

10 Then the officer on duty who had the key, they would give the keys to the

11 soldiers. They would unlock it and do what they wanted. That was a daily

12 occurrence in the afternoons and the evenings.

13 Q. Now, counsel yesterday helped you refresh your recollection on

14 some dates. And he showed you Prosecutor's Exhibit P608 and P609. Both

15 of these -- P608 is an order signed by General Talic on the 1st of April,

16 1992. P609 is a regular combat report, signed on the 2nd of April, 1992.

17 And both of those documents contain instructions for the 6th Krajina

18 Brigade to go to Sanski Most and prevent inter-ethnic conflict.

19 P608, the order, also states that the 6th Brigade is to establish

20 full cooperation with the organs of government in Sanski Most municipality

21 in collaboration with the TO and Territorial Defence units and the

22 police. And that was used to show you that the arrival of Basara and the

23 6th Brigade would have been around the first week of April. At that time

24 Mr. -- it was after that point, then, that Colonel Basara assured you as a

25 representative of the Muslim community and the SDA that the army was there

Page 7181

1 to guarantee peace and prevent war; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then on the 19th of April - you were refreshed on that date or

4 around that date - was the crisis at the municipality building when the

5 non-Serbs were forced out. And you were asked questions about how the

6 following day Mr. -- General Talic arrived by helicopter. And again you

7 weren't at that meeting but you heard that he guaranteed peace and

8 security and that there would not be war between different ethnic groups.

9 Is that right?

10 A. Everything was like that. One thing was said and action was

11 something quite different.

12 Q. And then about five weeks after that was the civilian order

13 broadcast over the radio for people in your town, in your community, in

14 Sanski Most, to turn over weapons. And those weapons were turned over to

15 military officials at checkpoints; is that correct?

16 A. Only Muslims and Croats. The Serbs didn't have that obligation.

17 Q. And on the 26th of May, shelling of Sanski Most began. Who was

18 shelling Sanski Most?

19 A. The Yugoslav People's Army from the surrounding hills.

20 Q. They were shelling Muslim and Croat neighbourhoods only; correct?

21 A. All Serbian houses are standing. The Muslim houses were

22 destroyed.

23 Q. So it's fair to say that Branko Basara did not keep his promise to

24 the Muslim and Croat people.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already stated that.

Page 7182

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Far from it.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. But this has been brought up

3 again. These statements have been shown. There's been the implication

4 that there were these orders to prevent inter-ethnic conflict, and I think

5 he should be given a full opportunity to explain what he thinks these

6 orders were really about, these promises, what the motive for them was.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

8 MR. NICHOLLS:

9 Q. And you said also that - I think it was on the first day - that

10 when you first heard these guarantees from the JNA that you were -- and

11 the Muslim and Croat people were happy because you thought there might be

12 a chance that the army would fulfil its promise and prevent war between

13 the different ethnicities; isn't that right?

14 A. That was our only salvation. The Yugoslav People's Army should

15 have been a guarantor of peace.

16 Q. Now, as His Honour said yesterday, you're an educated man, you're

17 a professional man. You were there, and you lived through all this. In

18 your opinion, what was the purpose of these guarantees made to you by

19 Branko Basara and General Talic that you could rely on them to protect you

20 and prevent inter-ethnic conflict?

21 A. To mislead us so that they would be able to elaborate the plan

22 they had in mind at peace. If -- but that is true. I would ask the Court

23 once again as these are just two pages covering the chronology of events

24 in the municipality of Sanski Most, that it should be read out so that we

25 can see that there was a plan behind it with specific stages that followed

Page 7183

1 one another in order.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: I have no further questions, Your Honour. And I

3 think he should be allowed to make a statement at the end if he wishes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Is there any objection on

5 the part of the Defence?

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if -- if the witness is to use a

7 certain -- certain notes concerning certain issues, then we are, of

8 course, entitled to have that beforehand and cross-examine him on that. I

9 don't really see any particular reason --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, he's making -- going to make a statement.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Going to make a statement.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. He can make a statement but without consulting

14 his notes. Because in that case, we will be --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But if he has a pre-prepared statement, which

16 he wants to read, I see no problem in -- in not -- allowing to do so. And

17 then obviously we'll have -- he will make it now, and if you have any

18 questions you would like to ask afterwards, I will give you the

19 opportunity.

20 Go ahead, please. Go ahead. You can read out this statement or

21 make your statement. Please be as short as you can. Thank you.

22 And we'll have the break immediately after.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chronology of events in Sana.

24 On the 14th of March 1992, the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived with

25 Basara Brana as commander.

Page 7184

1 On the 14th of April, 1992 the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most

2 was proclaimed and a Crisis Staff was formed. For control in the Crisis

3 Staff, Rasula Nedeljko, Vrkes Vlado, Vrucinic Mirko, Basara Branko, Anicic

4 Nedeljko, Lukic Slobodan, Savanovic Boro, Banjac Bosko, Tadic Boro,

5 Tripkovic Nemanja, Davidovic Nenad, Ergarac Dane, Jaglica Nebojsa, Delic

6 Tomo, Krunic Mico and others were appointed.

7 On the 17th of April, 1992 workers, Muslims and Croats, were

8 chased out of the MUP. Nedeljko Rasula was in charge of this action.

9 On the 19th of April, the Crisis Staff was formed consisting of

10 SOS, SDS, and the 6th Krajina Brigade of Basara's -- no. Basara commanded

11 this operation of formation of this staff. That is when executives,

12 Muslims and Catholics, were chased out of the social accounting service,

13 the court, the prosecutor's office, the radio station, the public utility

14 company, Famos, the hospital, educational institutions, and the municipal

15 assembly.

16 On the 15th of May, 1992 all employed were fired, a curfew was

17 introduced, patrols by the military police and the 6th Krajina Brigade,

18 instruction at school was suspended.

19 On the 22nd of May, 1992 a general mobilisation of Serbs was

20 proclaimed. Vlado Vrkes was in charge, as well as Boro Savanovic and Boro

21 Tadic.

22 On the 25th of May, 1992 by orders of the Crisis Staff

23 paramilitary units and the police arrest us, the leaders. They declare us

24 to be Alija's fighters, Mujahedins, the worst extremists. In addition to

25 us, other more -- men of repute in Sanski Most were arrested. We were

Page 7185

1 taken to the prison at the Betonirka, the Hasan Kikic school, the Krings

2 Hall.

3 On the 26th of May in the evening paramilitary forces by decision

4 of the Crisis Staff and the SDS carry out an armed attack on the town,

5 shelling of the Muslim part of town Otoke, Muhici, and Gornja Mahala.

6 On the 27th of May, I was taken away as well. In the course of

7 the day of the 27th of May, there was evacuation and the beginning of

8 systematic looting and burning of Otoke, Muhici, and Mahala. The people

9 were gathered at the exercise grounds in Krkojevci. 43 victims were

10 killed, women, children, and men, in Muhici and Mahala. Those victims

11 several days later were collected and their bodies buried in a mass grave

12 at Greda.

13 On the 6th of June, 1992 by orders of the Crisis Staff the first

14 group was taken to Manjaca. And from then on in certain time periods a

15 total of some 1.500 men were taken to Manjaca. The transport was carried

16 out in -- escorted by Serbian policemen upon instructions of Drago

17 Vrucinic.

18 That is all that I wrote down, and I allow this copy of mine to be

19 photocopied -- this document to be photocopied.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a break now.

21 Please, Mr. Biscevic, make that -- that block of notes available

22 to the usher, who will make photocopies of it.

23 Yes. He needs to come back because I want to know if there are

24 any questions forthcoming and -- unfortunately.

25 In the meantime, please Ms. Korner, Mr. Ackerman, and Mr. Zecevic,

Page 7186

1 try to utilise the next 20, 30 minutes --

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to talk to Defence.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- because --

4 MS. KORNER: Yes. I agree, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to find -- we need to find a solution.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise I will have to impose a solution, which

8 both of you will not like. I mean, as simple as that.

9 MS. KORNER: At least that would be evenhanded, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Break for 30 minutes.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.23 a.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry for the delay, but we had a minor mishap. It

14 was minor.

15 MS. KORNER: Well, Ms. Sutherland informed me this morning she'd

16 upset a whole pot of coffee over her desk, so I hope it wasn't as bad as

17 that.

18 Your Honours, we have spoken --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

20 MS. KORNER: -- and the Prosecution, as ever, has given in to this

21 extent --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a question of size.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, may be. Your Honour, I just hope that for

24 future we can try and perhaps be a bit more agreeable on these matters,

25 but anyhow, the agreement reached, subject to Your Honours' approval is

Page 7187

1 this: that Mr. Ackerman, as he wishes to see Mr. Brdjanin tomorrow morning

2 between 10.00, that will remain. We'd ask if Your Honours were to sit at

3 12.00 to start. Ms. Richterova, then depending on where she gets with her

4 witnesses today, will complete those two witnesses, and then we'll deal

5 with Charles McLeod. I would hope enough time being left that he can

6 complete his evidence in chief. I'm pretty certain he can. And, Your

7 Honour, then on Monday, cross-examination will take place in the

8 afternoon.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go step-by-step. Tomorrow, you're

10 suggesting that we commence at 12.00 noon.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, if that is agreeable to Your Honours.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but before -- do we have a courtroom available

13 at 12.00?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. The Courtroom I will be available between

15 12.00 to 3.00.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That will mean sitting from 12.00 noon to what time?

17 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry? Well, Your Honour, I'd ask the Court --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You have to advise me on this, because --

19 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. From 12.00 until 6.30, the normal

20 time, but just with two more breaks. A break for lunch, obviously.

21 THE REGISTRAR: So we can move between Courtroom I and

22 Courtroom II.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that's -- for me that is not a big

24 problem. I mean, it's not a problem at all moving from one courtroom to

25 another. But I still have to have the time.

Page 7188

1 It's 12.00 noon until what time first before we break?

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Just wait a minute.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Everything is confused. I don't know how this

5 happened, but my understanding of the agreement that I just made with

6 Ms. Korner was this: That we were going to meet the entire day tomorrow,

7 that I would --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I just heard her say that she wants to honour your

9 commitment to --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: No. That commitment --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- with Mr. Brdjanin.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: No. That commitment only has to do with meeting

13 with him after he hears the tapes of the transcripts, which won't be

14 available. So he can't hear them by tomorrow morning at 10.00.

15 Therefore, it makes no sense for me to meet with him tomorrow morning at

16 10.00. It makes sense for me to meet with him Monday morning at 10.00,

17 after he's had a chance to hear the tapes over the weekend, which is what

18 my understanding was of what we were going to do. And so we can meet all

19 day tomorrow, as far as I'm concerned, and finish up the two witnesses

20 Ms. Richterova has plus the direct examination of Ms. Korner's witness,

21 and then the cross-examination would be at the normal time Monday

22 afternoon, and I think we can finish the cross-examination on Monday and

23 that solves all the problems, and that was my understanding. I don't need

24 to meet with Brdjanin tomorrow. I need to meet with him Monday.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

Page 7189

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I understand that; in which case

2 one -- we could sit -- I mean, I need to meet with Mr. McLeod, who's not

3 arriving until this evening, as I said yesterday. But if we could -- I

4 think if we could sit 10.00, then sit through until -- it may be I'll be

5 finished at -- in fact we sit at 9.00 or 9.30, and then it may well be

6 that if Your Honour feels --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me make myself clear. I still have to look

8 right and left, because obviously, I mean, we haven't even started

9 consulting amongst one another yet.

10 MS. KORNER: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But I would imagine that on the basis of past

12 experience that there shouldn't be any problems.

13 However, let's start. Are you suggesting that we start at 10.00,

14 therefore?

15 MS. KORNER: Yes. For Ms. Richterova to finish.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

17 MS. KORNER: And then --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I need to know exactly what time we would break

19 after that. That would be 11.30?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: For half an hour, resuming at 12.00 noon and

22 finishing at 1.30. Then we would have a break of...?

23 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour will obviously want, I imagine, a

24 bit more for the luncheon adjournment. So if we said we sat again at

25 2.30.

Page 7190

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 2.30.

2 MS. KORNER: And depending on where we've got to --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

4 MS. KORNER: -- we may need to move courts after that, but I would

5 hope not.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: 2.30 and --

7 MS. KORNER: And --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And that would mean sitting till 4.00?

9 MS. KORNER: Yes. Although, I heard --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically we're talking of an hour and a half

11 here, another hour and a half here. That's three hours. And that's

12 another hour and a half here. Four and a half hours, I think that should

13 be plenty for one day. I wouldn't like -- even if you want to shorten it

14 by quarter of an hour, I would be prepared to do that.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's -- okay. So tentatively first

17 proposition: 10.00 a.m. to 11.30, 12.00 to 1.30, 2.30 to 4.00 p.m.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that agreeable to the two Defence teams?

20 Okay. So tomorrow that will be the time schedule.

21 Madam Registrar, you're tasked with informing the parties -- the

22 times are established but the courtrooms are not, so please -- Courtroom I

23 to start with.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exactly. Just the last one, from 2.30 to 4.00,

25 we'll be sitting in Courtroom II.

Page 7191

1 JUDGE AGIUS: In Courtroom II. Okay.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So that seems to be the arrangement: Courtroom I

4 until 1.30 and Courtroom II for the last -- the third and final session.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes. Can I -- and there's one -- I've spoken to

6 Mr. Ackerman and I've asked if it's possible that both sets of

7 cross-examination could be completed on the Monday session in the

8 afternoon. At the moment my intention is that he will start in Stakic

9 then only on the Tuesday morning. But it may well be, because I haven't

10 had a chance to address Judge Schomburg, that he may want him to start his

11 examination-in-chief on the Monday before he's finished in this court. In

12 that event, I'm taking it from what was raised earlier there's no

13 objection, although it's a highly undesirable way of proceeding.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. But I interfere as little as I can in

15 these things, as you may have gathered. But --

16 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't force anyone to tell me beforehand either --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: No objection to what? I don't --

20 MS. KORNER: It's Mr. Ackerman's original suggestion that

21 Mr. McLeod should start his examination-in-chief in the Stakic case before

22 he's being cross-examined in this case. I hope that's not going to

23 happen, but it may well be that's what has to happen.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I don't have any objection to that

25 happening. I think, you know -- I am certain that he is a very busy man,

Page 7192

1 and I think his time here should be utilised to the fullest if possible.

2 So I don't have an objection to his spending some time in Stakic in the

3 midst of what we're doing here.

4 MS. KORNER: Whether he can do it is another matter, but

5 anyhow ...

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So anyway, we'll start from that.

7 So the understanding as far as tomorrow is concerned, it's all

8 clear. And then Monday we'll reassess the situation obviously, and we

9 will do our -- our level best to finish with the witness so that -- we'll

10 try anyway.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour. Thank you

12 very much, Your Honour --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: -- Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zecevic, are you sure you want to put questions

16 to the witness on the statement that he read or ...?

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Actually, I have five questions

18 for him.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And Mr. Ackerman -- or Mr. Trbojevic, do you

20 want to put questions to the witness?

21 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls, do you intend to put questions to

23 him?

24 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour. My only suggestion would be, I

25 think, if these -- if his statement is treated as evidence, of course --

Page 7193

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's not going to -- I'm not going to treat it

2 as evidence.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, in that case, I --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to treat it as evidence.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: In that case, I don't honestly see the need. I've

6 put all my questions to him. They put all their questions to him. The

7 Chamber allowed him to make his statement, which is not evidence. You're

8 not a lay jury. If it's not treated as evidence, I don't see --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I mean, I have no intention of

10 admitting this as evidence. Obviously you have a copy of it. If there is

11 a request from one of you to have it admitted as evidence, we will

12 consider it. But frankly, I mean, it's -- I don't ...

13 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not trying to stop you, Mr. Zecevic.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not trying to stop you.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Oh, I know that you're not trying to stop me. And

18 the point is that his statement is on the transcript, so we have now a

19 couple -- this is not the statement. These are the facts, the dates, the

20 actual names of the people. That is why --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Bring the witness in again, please.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I mean, this is going to be considered anyhow.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But my invitation to you was to pre-assess

24 where this could -- where you could get with these five questions, whether

25 it's going to change anything or --

Page 7194

1 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I know it's --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just as much as his extra statement, whether it has

3 changed anything or not from his previous testimony.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: My point, Your Honour, if I may, is that if the

5 statement which he read at the end after I was through with my redirect

6 examination, if that's not evidence, there's no point in him questioning.

7 The answers won't be evidence --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: He made a statement in open court. That -- he made

9 a statement. And what's not going to be evidence is this -- these notes

10 which I suppose include also the version -- the written version or the

11 prepared statement that he read from. I mean, I don't -- I don't need it.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: My only --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He made a statement verbally.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: My only suggestion was that his statement made here

15 be treated as just a statement made - it wasn't a response to

16 questioning - and that it not be considered in your deliberations either

17 way.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: But Your Honours, with all due respect, this

19 statement was made in the open court.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You have every right to question him, Mr. Zecevic.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, of course. And that is why -- and the witness

22 has provided with new information --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That has been pointed out. Yeah, especially as

24 regards date, because you put questions to him during your

25 cross-examination regarding the dates and it's obvious that you are not

Page 7195

1 agreeing.

2 Try to be as short -- concise as you can so that we get it over

3 and done with.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Biscevic, as a result of you reading

6 your -- your reading of that short statement that you made, Mr. Zecevic

7 has got a few questions to -- additional questions to put to you, so

8 please listen to what he needs to question you about and give us a short

9 answer. Thank you.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Biscevic, just a few questions for

13 clarification in connection with this statement of yours. In your

14 statement, you repeated that the arrival of the 6th Krajina Brigade

15 occurred on the 14th of March. And yesterday I thought we had agreed that

16 it was on the 3rd of April.

17 A. I read out what I had noted down. And we agreed you are probably

18 right. I will not dispute the dates.

19 Q. Tell me, in your statement you mentioned -- I think on page 44 of

20 the transcript - I don't want to waste time by quoting you - you mentioned

21 members of the Crisis Staff, I think.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your statement to the investigators of the Prosecution in 1997

24 and 1999, on page 00838012, second paragraph of the English version, you

25 said the following. And I'll quote you in English: [In English]

Page 7196

1 [Previous translation continues] ... "the Crisis Staff as the authority

2 they had to consult but never specifically stated who were the members of

3 the Crisis Staff. At that time I did not know who were the members of the

4 Serb Crisis Staff in Sanski Most."

5 [Interpretation] Did you make that statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This statement that you made today was based on what? When you

8 listed members of the Crisis Staff when in your statement to the

9 investigator, you explicitly said that you didn't know who were members of

10 the Crisis Staff.

11 A. These are my notes that I took down every day on the basis of my

12 knowledge.

13 Q. Does that mean that you learnt about these facts as to who were

14 members of the Crisis Staff after 1999?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So I assume someone told you.

17 A. Yes, in contact with others.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me, Your Honours, these questions could have

19 been asked on his original cross-examination. They're all based on this

20 statement. It's got nothing to --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll finish earlier if you let Mr. Zecevic

23 finish with his five questions. I think you have already put four.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I have two or three more, Your Honours.

25 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement today, you said that on the

Page 7197

1 19th of April, the Crisis Staff was formed by the SDS, SOS, and the 6th

2 Brigade, didn't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So this is some other Crisis Staff, if I understand you

5 correctly.

6 A. These are my notes.

7 Q. So this, too, is something you learnt after 1999.

8 A. These are my notes that I work on on a daily basis.

9 Q. Today -- or, rather, yesterday and today, you repeated that on the

10 20th of April -- that it is true that on the 20th of April, according to

11 what you know, General Talic came to the meeting, and that on that

12 occasion he said to Mr. Kurbegovic that what had been done in Sanski Most

13 was wrong and that Rasula had done it on his own initiative. Is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell me, please, in your statement, you said that the mobilisation

17 took place on the 22nd of May and that it was organised by Vlado Vrkes,

18 Boro Savanovic, and Boro Tadic, didn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Vlado Vrkes was the President of the SDS, Boro Savanovic President

21 of the Club of Deputies, and Boro Tadic a member of the SDA, weren't

22 they?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So not one of them was a military man.

25 A. They were civilians who later put on uniforms.

Page 7198

1 Q. Tell me one more thing. From your notes here, I can see that you

2 know Adil Draganovic, a Judge of the court in Sanski Most.

3 A. I know him very well.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: This you could have asked him before.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Well --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean it's -- you don't need to see one's notes to

7 know -- and he told you that. He mentioned Adil Draganovic earlier. He

8 said that Adil Draganovic was in Manjaca. So he mentioned him already.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, this is just the information which we

10 got right now. This is new information.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which information?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: That Draganovic Adil was the organiser of the SDA

13 party in Sanski Most. This is relevant information which we received.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So ask him the question.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is it true that Adil Draganovic was the organiser --

17 MR. NICHOLLS: This isn't about the statement now that he made

18 just before he finished on his own. As you said, Adil Draganovic was

19 mentioned in his direct examination. There is -- I don't see any point in

20 asking questions about that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think I'm going to stop you Mr. Zecevic.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, with all due respect, if I may say --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Because these notes, he made them available not

24 because he referred to them. He made them available because he wanted to

25 make them available. But I allowed you to question further the witness on

Page 7199

1 the basis of what he stated in his final statement and not beyond that,

2 not beyond that.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours, but with all due

4 respect, we have found a piece of information right now.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's your problem. That's your problem.

6 Ask some other witness, not him. With this witness, you can ask him with

7 regard to the statement that he made. In his final statement, he did not

8 mention Adil Draganovic.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

10 questions. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So, Mr. Biscevic, that brings us

12 to the end of your role here as a witness. On behalf of the other two

13 Judges and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for having come here to

14 give evidence. You will now be escorted by the usher, and you will be

15 given all the assistance you require to return to your home. I thank you

16 once more, and you may now withdraw. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much and good-bye.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And have a safe journey.

19 Next witness. We'll give the usher a chance to escort the first

20 witness out.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: This witness is in closed session.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The witness is in closed session, so we will

23 go --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness, BT14, is in closed session. So we

Page 7200

1 will wait for the usher to come forward and prepare the courtroom for a

2 closed session, according to the Rules.

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11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

12 at 1.42 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

13 the 21st day of June, 2002, at 10.00 a.m.

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