Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7931

1 Thursday, 4 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, you can proceed to call the

6 case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

11 language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

13 Honour. I can hear you and I understand you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

15 General Talic, good afternoon to you too. Can you hear me in a

16 language that you can understand?

17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18 I can hear you in a language that I understand.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

20 Let's see whether there is something wrong with the monitor here.

21 I don't have anything, and Judge Taya doesn't have anything -- yeah, it's

22 come now. Sorry.

23 Yes. Appearances for the Prosecution.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good afternoon. Anna Richterova and Julian

25 Nicholls for the Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin.

Page 7932

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, madam, and to your team.

2 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, on this 4th of July, Your Honours.

4 And I appear here on behalf of Mr. Brdjanin along with my co-counsel Milan

5 Trbojevic and our assistant Marela Jevtovic. Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. And good afternoon to

7 you and your team. And our best regards on the occasion of your national

8 day.

9 Appearances for General Talic.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and

11 Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you and your

13 team.

14 So let's -- any preliminaries? No. Let's bring in the witness

15 and continue from where he left yesterday.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Delic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We are going to continue from where we left

20 yesterday. In other words, you are practically going to start giving

21 evidence today in substance. But before you do so, may I ask you to read

22 out once more your solemn declaration to tell us the truth and the whole

23 truth.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 7933


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. You may sit down.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Nicholls will be firing questions one after

6 the other until exhaustion.

7 Yes, Mr. Nicholls

8 Examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

9 Q. Thank you. Sir, now, yesterday we didn't have very much time to

10 start your testimony, and you had just told us about your background and

11 that relationship -- the relations between the Serbian and non-Serbian

12 population of Sanski Most had started breaking down towards the end of

13 1991. Do you remember whether civilian-owned property began to be blown

14 up at night at any time during that period, late 1991, early 1992?

15 A. Yes. They started blowing up shops, business premises, and houses

16 that belonged to Muslims and Croats.

17 Q. Now, who is they who you say started committing these crimes?

18 A. I don't know, because I didn't go out at night. The perpetrators

19 were never found.

20 Q. And do you know when these explosions -- to the best of your

21 recollection, when did this blowing up of non-Serb property start? What's

22 the first incident that you recall?

23 A. Well, a law office across the road from the court,

24 Sarcevic Sabic -- this was towards the end of February in 1992.

25 Q. And do you remember when the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived in Sanski

Page 7934

1 Most?

2 A. The 6th Krajina Brigade arrived when power was taken over in

3 Sanski Most by force, between the 19th and 20th. But before that they

4 were playing the key role. They had already been deployed at main points

5 in the town. That's where they had been deployed. So it was not possible

6 to get out of town without authorisation.

7 Q. Who was the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade?

8 A. It was Colonel Basara.

9 Q. Now, who was, if you know, Dusan Saovic? I hope I'm pronouncing

10 that reasonably correctly.

11 A. Dusan Saovic was commander to the SOS unit in Sanski Most.

12 Q. And what was that unit created for? Can you describe what role

13 that unit had in Sanski Most in early 1992?

14 A. Well, they issued orders of the SDS party, which was led by

15 Nedeljko Rasula.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment before you proceed to the next

17 question -- next answer.

18 Sir, you said the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived when power was taken

19 over in Sanski Most by force between the 19th and the 20th. Could you

20 tell us the month, please, because that is not reflected in the question

21 or in the answer.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in my opinion, as far as I

23 know, I know that that was in April, as far as I know. I don't know about

24 what happened before because I didn't get around very much.


Page 7935

1 Q. Now, you stated that the SOS -- the translation reads -- "issued

2 orders of the SDS party."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you clarify that. Did they issue orders to the SDS party or

5 did they carry out orders issued by the SDS party to them?

6 A. They implemented the orders that the SDS issued to them.

7 Q. Did Mr. Saovic have a nickname?

8 A. They called him Njunja.

9 Q. Now, you said earlier that you didn't know who was blowing up this

10 non-Serb property in Sanski Most, property owned by non-Serbs. And I

11 don't know whether you were referring to you don't know the individuals or

12 you don't know which groups were doing that. Could you clarify that for

13 me.

14 A. Well, I wasn't --

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think he's been asked and it's been

16 answered. He said he didn't know because he wasn't there. He wasn't out

17 at night. I mean, I think he said what he knows about it. I object to

18 any further questioning about it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have to say to that, Mr. Nicholls?

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I don't think it's that clear because he

21 could be stating that he doesn't know the actual individuals who planted

22 bombs at certain specific businesses or homes, but he might know which

23 groups or organisations were carrying out these acts. And if he doesn't

24 know, he can say he doesn't know.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, if he wasn't out at night, like he said, and

Page 7936

1 didn't know who was doing it, then how would he know what groups were

2 doing it? I mean, the question was broad enough for him to answer it if

3 he knows. It's been asked. It's been answered. I think we're done

4 already.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think as the question has been put, it has been

6 answered already. If you want to rephrase it in some other way as to

7 cover new ground, then you are allowed. But otherwise the objection

8 [Realtime transcript read in error "organisation"] is sustained. Not the

9 organisation -- the objection is sustained. It still remains the

10 organisation. Yeah.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Do you have any personal knowledge as to whether

12 the SOS was carrying out bombings of non-Serb property? And please don't

13 answer the question yet.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: That's pretty leading, Your Honour. And it's the

15 same question asked in a different way but in a leading way. And I object

16 to it --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- him to rephrase the question in a different

18 way. So as to cover -- he is begin specific now.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: He's leading. He's now telling the witness who

20 he thinks it was that was carrying out the bombings. It's pretty easy for

21 the witness now to agree with him, isn't it?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but he said as to whether the SOS was carrying

23 out bombings. In other words, he's not suggesting that SOS was and then

24 asking the witness whether he has personal knowledge of it. It's --

25 it's -- no. The objection is not sustained now, and the witness is

Page 7937

1 invited to answer the question.

2 The question is, sir: Do you have any personal knowledge as to

3 whether the SOS was carrying out bombings on non-Serb property? If you

4 have personal knowledge as to whether the SOS was carrying out such

5 bombings, you tell us yes and then you explain. If you don't, you tell us

6 no and you don't need to explain anything further.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally don't know. I didn't

8 move around. In evening I didn't go out -- I didn't leave my house in the

9 evening.


11 Q. Now, could you -- when did you stop working at the courthouse in

12 Sanski Most? In 1992 I'm speaking of.

13 A. That was after the 15th. A few days later on the municipal court

14 in Sanski Most was taken over by force.

15 Q. You're speaking of the 15th of April, 1992, when you say the

16 15th?

17 A. No. On the 15th of May, 1992.

18 Q. And can you describe what you mean by -- when you say the

19 courthouse was taken over. What do you mean by that statement?

20 A. On that day, in the morning, when we turned up at our jobs, three

21 or four vehicles arrived. They were terrain vehicles, civilian and

22 military ones. They blocked the court -- they surrounded the court, and

23 that's the fist time that I met Mr. Vrkes. That's how he introduced

24 himself. He was with his bodyguard who was wearing a military uniform and

25 had an automatic rifle. They entered the building, and they said that we

Page 7938

1 should all gather in a courtroom, room number 8, and with them was

2 Milan Stolic, who was a retired policeman whom they had sent, and they

3 removed someone who was at the door called Lisic Sefik, so Lisic Sefik had

4 to leave his post and Mr. Stolic took over his job.

5 Q. Who was Mr. Vrkes? How did he introduce himself? What authority

6 did he tell you he had to hold this meeting with you?

7 A. Well, when he entered the courtroom, we all sat down. There were

8 benches. He then introduced himself and he said that his name was Vlado

9 Vrkes and that he was there on behalf of the Autonomous Region of Bosnian

10 Krajina.

11 Q. And did you have any -- you and the other court personnel, did you

12 have any advance notice of this visit by Mr. Vrkes with his armed guards?

13 Did you know this was going to happen when you went to work that day?

14 A. No. We turned up at work in the morning. We weren't expecting

15 something like that to happen.

16 Q. And was there any -- were there any demands made upon you and the

17 other court personnel? Were there any requests of acts that you would

18 have to comply with in order to keep your jobs?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You can lead here. You can be more specific.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

21 Q. Were you required to take any kind of oath that day by Mr. Vrkes?

22 Was that demanded of you?

23 A. Well, we were asked to sign a pledge of loyalty in order to be

24 able to continue working in the municipal court.

25 Q. And I don't need the exact wording, but if you can describe a

Page 7939

1 little bit what that pledge stated and what entity you would be pledging

2 loyalty to if you signed that oath or pledge.

3 A. I didn't see that document because I didn't sign any such pledge.

4 Q. Why did you refuse to sign that pledge?

5 A. Well, if I had signed that pledge, then I would have been a second

6 class citizen, a second class man.

7 Q. Why do you say that? Could you explain why that would make you a

8 second class person to sign that oath, or you felt that way.

9 A. Well, I would have had to carry out their orders. I would have

10 been a servant in a certain sense. And the same would have happened if --

11 even if I hadn't signed it, because the same thing happened. We lost our

12 jobs a few days later.

13 Q. A servant to whom?

14 A. I would have been -- Mr. Vrkes said that today the court would be

15 under Bosnian Krajina, under the authority of Bosnian Krajina, and that we

16 had to respect their laws and their rules.

17 Q. Now, how many employees were -- refused to sign that oath and

18 subsequently lost their jobs in the next couple of days?

19 A. There were about ten of us, ten of us Muslims, and there was a

20 Croatian lady. I don't know about her, because she was married to a

21 Croat -- to a Serb.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.


24 Q. Were there any Serb employees of the court who were forced to

25 leave their jobs?

Page 7940

1 A. Yes, about 40.

2 Q. On that same occasion are you saying that 40 Serb employees were

3 forced to leave their jobs because they refused to sign a loyalty oath?

4 A. No. I didn't see any of them signing a pledge of loyalty, and

5 they continued to work.

6 Q. Now, I believe that about a week after this -- after you lost your

7 job you moved out of your house in Sanski Most. Can you tell us why that

8 was?

9 A. I left my house. I lived in the Alagica Polje neighbourhood with

10 my parents, who lived in Mahala and with my brother and sister-in-law

11 for the same reason, because on the 23rd of May in the evening my house

12 was blown up.

13 Q. Were you at home when your house was blown up? How did you find

14 out about it?

15 A. No, I wasn't. Over the weekend I usually went to my wife's

16 mother, so I was in -- with her in the village of Caplje over that

17 weekend. And that morning my brother phoned me. He wasn't able to tell

18 me, but he said that there was a leak in my house. I didn't understand

19 how there could have been a leak, since I had checked everything and I had

20 cut -- I had shut the water off, and then I went to Caplje.

21 Q. What kind of neighbourhood was your house in, the one that was

22 blown up, the Alagica Polje neighbourhood? What was the predominant

23 ethnicity in that neighbourhood?

24 A. Yes. The majority of the population was Serbian. I was the only

25 Muslim in the street with my wife and son.

Page 7941

1 Q. Now, being the only non-Serb in that street, were you speaking now

2 about just before the house was blown up -- did you feel comfortable

3 living there, in that neighbourhood?

4 A. Well, that situation had already started in April. I didn't

5 really feel safe, so my wife and child went to Croatia. I hoped that this

6 would be over very soon; however, what happened happened.

7 Q. Now, did you report to anybody this criminal act, somebody blowing

8 up part of your house?

9 A. When I got there, I took my car, I went to Mahala, I fetched my

10 brother and father, and then I saw what happened when I arrived there. My

11 father and brother remained in the house. I went to the police to report

12 the explosion, to report the fact that my house had been blown up.

13 Q. And what did the police do in response to your report?

14 A. They said they would go to the site. I returned home. And later

15 on two inspectors arrived to carry out an investigation -- on on-site

16 investigation.

17 Q. And did they carry that investigation out? Did you get a sense

18 that this crime that you were a victim of was being taken seriously or was

19 not being taken seriously?

20 A. I didn't take that very seriously. I -- in previous occasions

21 when cafes had been blown up, these cases were never solved, so similarly

22 my case wasn't solved.

23 Q. You said cafes. These cafes and homes were being blown up. Just

24 to be completely clear, were any of these to your knowledge owned by

25 Serbs, or were they all owned by people of other ethnicities?

Page 7942

1 A. They belonged to people of other ethnicities.

2 Q. After -- well, was the damage to your home so severe that you

3 couldn't continue to live in it even if -- even if you had wanted to?

4 A. The kitchen and another room remained intact, however that was a

5 warning issued to me. They wanted to tell me that I shouldn't live there

6 any more, so it wasn't a good idea to continue living there.

7 Q. Who's they? You said they wanted to issue you a warning.

8 A. I don't know who the perpetrators were, because I wasn't at home

9 so I couldn't say.

10 Q. Now, after this explosion at your home, are you aware of whether

11 these types of incidents continued to occur in Sanski Most?

12 A. That was on the 26th and 27th, when the attack in Mahala took

13 place.

14 Q. Okay. Why don't you tell me about that now. Where did you go

15 around the 26th, since you could no longer live in your home, you didn't

16 feel safe there.

17 A. On the 26th in the morning I went to Mahala, to my parents'

18 place.

19 Q. And what happened that day when you arrived in Mahala? What do

20 you remember happening?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not getting any interpretation, Your Honour.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.

24 A. I was going into town on a bike, and in front of the department

25 store there was an APC.

Page 7943

1 Q. I'm not sure if we got that all. Let me ask you the question

2 again.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you did.


5 Q. In your statement, you talk quite a lot about what happened to you

6 and your parents in Mahala that day and how you were in the basement of

7 the house and there was some shelling. Can you describe that to us,

8 please.

9 A. I, my mother, and father went to my brother's, who was renting a

10 place, and he had a basement. And we were there about 7.00 or 8.00, and

11 the shelling started between 8.00 and 9.00. He was the only one who had a

12 basement there, so that the neighbours also came to that basement to seek

13 shelter, women, children, and the elderly.

14 Q. How many people were in that basement with you?

15 A. About 25 to 30 women, children, and old men, my whole family, my

16 father, my brother, my sister-in-law, and myself.

17 Q. Did you have any warning that this shelling of Mahala was about to

18 start? Was there any kind of warning to you?

19 A. No. I had no prior warning.

20 Q. And if you know, do you know who -- who or which armed forces were

21 shelling Mahala that day?

22 A. It was the 6th Krajina Brigade that was shelling from the

23 surrounding hills where they were positioned around Sanski Most.

24 Q. Now, when you were out in Mahala and when you arrived there, did

25 you see any armed groups of non-Serbs? Did you see any rebel paramilitary

Page 7944

1 formations on the streets?

2 A. No, not at all. Everything was deserted.

3 Q. Well, what was the threat to the 6th Krajina Brigade or to the

4 Serb people from Mahala the day that shelling was happening?

5 A. There was no threat. There was no resistance. Just the people

6 who were powerless.

7 Q. How long did you remain in that basement and also how long did the

8 shelling continue?

9 A. The shelling went on from 9.00 in the evening until the next day

10 at 9.00 or 9.30 in the morning, the 27th.

11 Q. What did you do after the shelling stopped? What did you and

12 those other people in the basement do?

13 A. We didn't all go out. The owner's father went into the house. He

14 switched on the radio and listened, and there were announcements broadcast

15 every five minutes calling on the population to come out and to gather at

16 the exercise ground where people were training for drivers, for their

17 driving licence test, and this was a large area with a fence round it.

18 Q. At the same time, if you remember, were there any other demands

19 made over the radio, specifically referring to the surrender of weapons?

20 A. No. We didn't, because we were in the basement, so that we were

21 isolated and we didn't dare go out until it stopped. And he went out to

22 see what was going on.

23 Q. And then tell me about how you left the house and where you went

24 after -- after you'd heard about these announcements on the radio.

25 A. Late in the afternoon everything was deserted when we left that

Page 7945

1 basement, and we formed a column and we went from upper Mahala towards

2 lower Mahala. By then Mahala had been completely abandoned. The people

3 had already left. We didn't know that. We were left alone in that

4 basement.

5 Q. What did Mahala look like after you came out and started walking

6 through it? Could you see any results from the shelling? Did you see any

7 damage? Can you describe what you saw.

8 A. From the second half of Mahala, where we were stopped, and from

9 there towards town, we saw the damage and some houses burning.

10 Q. If you can just briefly describe to the Chamber the extent of that

11 damage to the town, how many houses you saw damaged or burning. If you

12 don't remember, that's -- that's okay.

13 A. When this soldier led us down there towards town, where he left us

14 for the night, we came across a couple of houses that were burning, and we

15 saw a soldier throw a cocktail grenade into one house and it burst up in

16 flames suddenly.

17 Q. And then tell us what happened. You said you were walking through

18 town and you stopped and you spent the night. Just -- if you can just

19 continue. What happened to this group of people that you were walking

20 through Sanski Most with? Can you tell me where you spent the night --

21 the next night after you came out of the basement and walked through

22 town.

23 A. We spent the night in a house, in a basement owned by a Sarcevic.

24 This was just before night-time. There were another ten people there, a

25 total of 40 of us in that basement which was close to the river and it was

Page 7946

1 cold and damp.

2 Q. And then at some point were you given permission to leave that

3 area?

4 A. No. We stayed there all night until the morning.

5 Q. And then what happened the next morning?

6 A. Well, the owner of that building, Sarcevic, called up the Crisis

7 Staff to see what he should do with so many people, because he couldn't

8 accommodate them any longer. But he didn't get any answer. And outside

9 was a guard who went off. There was no one. And we spontaneously headed

10 towards a settlement. I had an aunt up there, my father, my mother, and

11 myself. Other people went in a different direction, I don't know where.

12 Q. And that was at a place in Sanski Most called Narodni front?

13 A. Yes, a housing district.

14 Q. If we can move on now to the very end of May. I believe you heard

15 another radio announcement telling you that you and your family had to

16 report somewhere. If that's right, can you tell me about that radio

17 announcement and what you did.

18 A. On that day the population who were not residents of the Narodni

19 front were called upon, because there were quite a number of families from

20 Mahala who had relatives there, and we all went to the football pitch of

21 the Narodni front elementary school.

22 Q. Now, these families from Mahala who were at Narodni front, they

23 were there because -- why were they there at that point? Why hadn't they

24 gone back to Mahala?

25 A. They were not allowed to go to Mahala.

Page 7947

1 Q. What happened at the elementary school when you arrived with your

2 parents?

3 A. This is the football pitch in front of the elementary school and

4 in front of the sports hall. Then us men were separated into the sports

5 hall and the women and children were taken back. I don't know. My mother

6 and father were also told to go back because they were elderly.

7 Q. They were 61 and 62 years old; is that right? Something like

8 that?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Now, the men being held with you at the sports hall who were not

11 released, who were not told to go back, what -- what ethnicity were these

12 men who were held at the sports hall?

13 A. They were all Muslims, mostly from Mahala.

14 Q. Citizens or members of --

15 A. Yes, citizens of Muslim ethnicity. Mostly people who used to live

16 in Mahala.

17 Q. Now, I believe from your statement you spent seven days at the

18 sports hall. Can you tell me if that's correct and then what happened

19 after that seven days when you were released.

20 A. While we were in this small hall, we spent the whole day there.

21 And towards dusk they escorted us to the sports hall. And when we

22 entered, there were a couple of thousand men already there from Mahala.

23 It was only there that I learnt two days later that my two brothers were

24 alive, an older and a younger brother. I found them there in the hall.

25 Q. And how long were you held in that hall? And if you can just very

Page 7948

1 briefly describe what the conditions were like while you were held there,

2 what you slept on and what you had to eat and drink.

3 A. I was there for seven days. We slept on the parquet floor. We

4 were given water, but frequently there was none. The conditions were

5 impossible. We couldn't bathe, and very often the water supply -- there

6 was no water in the taps. The food would come occasionally.

7 Q. Were you told why -- why you were being held there and why you

8 couldn't leave, given any explanation?

9 A. No. I didn't have any contact with anyone. We were detained

10 there. So I had no contact with anyone outside.

11 Q. Who was detaining you and the other men at that -- at the sports

12 hall?

13 A. The guards who were reserve policemen.

14 Q. Tell us how you came to be released from that detention facility.

15 A. That day when I was released there was a large convoy, 10 to 12

16 buses. Inside were women and children, and then they filled up the buses

17 with men from the sports hall. And someone said, "As my settlement was

18 mostly Serbian and it was not a war zone, I was told I could go back

19 home.

20 Q. Did you go back to your house, the one that had been -- the one

21 you told us about that had been damaged by an explosion?

22 A. No, I didn't go back. I didn't dare. But I went to my

23 neighbour's in another street where there were more Muslim houses.

24 Q. And at some point soon after that, were you taken back into

25 custody? Were you arrested again?

Page 7949












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7950

1 A. Yes. On the 5th of June, 1992 in the morning they were looking

2 for me at a neighbour's. They asked him where this other house was. And

3 four military policemen came and asked me whether my name was Bekir

4 Delic. They said -- I said yes, and they said, "You must come with me for

5 an information interview at the police station."

6 Q. Why do you say -- how do you know these were military policemen

7 who came to get you?

8 A. They had military uniforms and white belts.

9 Q. What happened next? What happened during -- tell us where they

10 brought you and what happened to you after they picked you up.

11 A. They took me to the police station. We parked the car. We

12 entered the corridor. And they told me to lean against the wall, to turn

13 around, and to wait until the inspector called me.

14 Q. And how long -- and then at some point did the inspector come to

15 interview you and to interrogate you?

16 A. No. Another inspector came, Dusko Zoric, who took me to his

17 office to interrogate me.

18 Q. Did you know this man Dusko Zoric from -- is this the first time

19 you had met him, or did you know him from before?

20 A. No. I knew him from before, because we lived in the same street

21 when we both got married.

22 Q. And tell me about what happened next. What happened during that

23 interrogation with this person that you knew?

24 A. This didn't last long, his interrogation, because soon after that

25 Brane Sobot, also an inspector, came, who had sent the policemen to fetch

Page 7951

1 me to interview me. Dusko Zoric started yelling at me as if he'd never

2 seen me before, and he was holding a weapon. I don't know much about

3 weapons, so I knew nothing about it.

4 Q. And how long did this go on, this interrogation?

5 A. Not long. And then they took me to the next-door office, that is,

6 inspector Brane Sobot took me there.

7 Q. And when you're talking about this building you're in now, the

8 police station, that is also known as the MUP; is that correct?

9 A. [No audible response]

10 Q. You need to answer for the microphone, because we're recording

11 this.

12 A. I'm sorry.

13 Q. But was the answer yes or no that this was the MUP that you were

14 being held in at this point?

15 A. Yes. Before it was called the SUP. Now it is called the MUP.

16 Q. Thank you. And you weren't beaten during these interrogations,

17 but you were shouted at and you were questioned about weapons and anything

18 you knew about weapons; is that right?

19 A. Yes, that's right. But I didn't know anything about that. I was

20 an ordinary citizen who had spent the three years prior to the war

21 building my house, so I didn't have any time for anything else except to

22 devote my time to the building of my house and to my family that I had

23 just formed.

24 Q. Well, before this arrest, did you in fact own any weapons, any

25 firearms?

Page 7952

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. After this interrogation, where were you taken?

3 A. After a couple of hours, the inspector left, and he said I should

4 go to the prison and that he would continue later. And in the corridor,

5 there was a policeman, Drago Dosenovic, known as Maco, and Ivica Pranic

6 was also waiting in the corridor, a Croat, and he took both of us.

7 Q. Where did he take you?

8 A. We went downstairs. The offices were upstairs. We followed him,

9 and he -- he opened the door and we entered a police car called a Golf, a

10 Golf police car, and we headed towards town. It was already dark.

11 Q. And where did he take you in this police car?

12 A. As I know the town well, we passed by the court, and then we

13 turned towards the Hasan Kikic elementary school. We entered the yard and

14 stopped behind the gym.

15 Q. And what happened there? I don't think you were there for very

16 long. Can you tell us what happened there and where you were brought to

17 next, where you were finally imprisoned.

18 A. Mr. Dosenovic handed us over to the guards. There were three of

19 them there wearing reserve police uniforms. He turned back, and when we

20 entered they closed the door. They told us to take off our laces. They

21 asked whether we had any money or anything. This was a small hall with

22 the sports equipment inside. Then they opened the door of the large hall.

23 We entered, and it was full of men.

24 Q. And how long did you spend at this place before you were taken to

25 the Betonirka garage?

Page 7953

1 A. I just spent the night there. In the morning, together with the

2 others, after breakfast a policeman came, who read out a list of seven or

3 eight names. He told us to go into a smaller room and to sit down.

4 Q. And you were in there for just a short time and you were told to

5 write out some statements; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then what happened next? If you can tell us, just briefly

8 after you -- after that incident.

9 A. This was just a formality for us to write down something. We

10 didn't write anything. About five times -- five minutes later

11 Dusan Saovic, known as Njunja, passed through the corridor. I knew him.

12 And they entered and shut the door. We just heard trucks outside, and a

13 policeman came, who told us to get in. There was no one there. The hall

14 was empty.

15 Q. What had happened to all those other people who had been in the

16 hall?

17 A. That was the first transport of people from that hall to Manjaca.

18 Q. At this point, where do you go next from here? Where were you

19 taken?

20 A. A young policeman came and said that we should go out three by

21 three and get into a car, and he drove us to the Betonirka.

22 Q. Now, when you say "the Betonirka," that's what you're referring to

23 as the prison; correct?

24 A. Yes. There were three garages there, concrete garages with iron

25 doors. They were garages used for cars.

Page 7954

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I please have the witness take a look at

2 P824.1. And I suppose we should put this on the ELMO so that everybody

3 can see it.

4 Could you try to -- I don't know if it's possible to get the whole

5 photo on. It doesn't appear to be on my monitor.

6 Q. Well, in any event, if you could look at this photo -- and if it's

7 easier, you can look at the paper photo to your right -- at P824.1. Can

8 you look at that for a second and tell me if you recognise the garages in

9 that photo.

10 A. Yes. Those are the garages, 1, 2, and 3, of Betonirka.

11 Q. Now, this photograph was not taken in 1992. Is this a fair and

12 reasonably accurate photograph of what the garages looked like back when

13 you were there in 1992 in June?

14 A. Yes, just as they are on the picture.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I please have the witness shown P824.2.

16 Q. Could you take a look at that. Is that a reasonably fair and

17 accurate picture of the interior, of what the garages looked like from the

18 inside?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to show the witness two more photos.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: They're new ones?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah. These are new ones which have not yet --

23 this will be P845.

24 Q. Again, if you could look at that photo for a minute and tell me

25 whether that is a fair and accurate representation of the interior of the

Page 7955

1 Betonirka garages as you remember it from June 1992.

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: And here is the last one, which will be P846.

4 Q. Again, if you could take a look at that. Tell me whether that

5 looks like the interior of the garages looking out in 1992 and if those

6 doors look similar to the doors there in 1992.

7 A. No. These holes weren't in the doors, and this hole above wasn't

8 there either, but this window was there. But on the outside there were

9 two concrete blocks. There was very little air because they blocked the

10 windows.

11 Q. Okay. We'll go through that now. Thank you.

12 When you arrived at Betonirka, were you told why you were being

13 placed in one of these garages? Or tell me what happened right when you

14 first arrived at Betonirka garage.

15 A. Well, we were taken there in three shifts. We were driven there

16 to the Betonirka. And the guard who was there opened the garage. We came

17 three by three. There were seven or eight of us. We were in groups. We

18 entered the garage. There was nothing inside. There was just that

19 concrete, concrete floor.

20 Q. And were you told how long you were going to be held there? Did

21 you have any idea how long you were going to spend in that concrete

22 garage?

23 A. No, no one told me anything. I had no idea.

24 Q. Were you charged with any offence? Were you told you had -- were

25 suspected of committing any crime or anything like that before you were

Page 7956

1 locked up in there?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How many people that first night were locked up with you in that

4 first garage?

5 A. There were about seven or eight of us. We had been separated from

6 that big group and put into that first garage.

7 Q. Do you remember the names of any of the people who were held with

8 you? I'm speaking now right at the very beginning.

9 A. I remember individual names. Osman Talic was there, the police

10 commander Enver Burnic, Nihad Kljucanin, Karabeg Rasim, Pranic Ivica,

11 Neno Alagic, and myself. As far as I can remember.

12 Q. How long did you spend in total in that garage? How many days?

13 A. I spent 31 days there.

14 Q. Now, I'd like you to start telling us what conditions were like

15 and what the daily routine, for lack of a better phrase, was like for you

16 in Betonirka garages. We've seen what the interior of the cell looked

17 like and you've said it was similar back then, except those holes were not

18 in the doors. You started telling us about the windows. How many windows

19 were there in your cell and were you able to open those windows?

20 A. No. There was a window which we couldn't open, and I said when we

21 got there they had placed those concrete blocks there.

22 Q. And we saw that there was a door to that cell -- to the garage -

23 excuse me - were you allowed to -- was that door normally kept open or

24 closed? And if it was closed, was it locked or unlocked?

25 A. When we were inside, and if we didn't go to have breakfast or

Page 7957

1 lunch, it was usually closed. But when we went to have breakfast or when

2 we went to have lunch, obviously it would be open for us to go out.

3 Q. What was the greatest number of men that you can remember being

4 held in that cell with? Because I think that people would come and go.

5 You correct me if I'm wrong -- that some people would be released, others

6 would come in. Can you tell me what the greatest number of people who

7 were forced to stay in that cell.

8 A. About 25 people. They started opening up, and they would then put

9 people in the second and third garage when others arrived.

10 Q. So you mean when one garage would fill up, then they would start

11 filling up the second and then the third?

12 A. Yes, that's what I want to say. When one garage would be filled

13 up, then they would use the second and then the third. There were three

14 garages.

15 Q. Now, obviously we can tell from those photos that there were no

16 showers or toilet facilities or running water in the garages. Can you

17 tell us what facilities you were provided with for bathing and for going

18 to the toilet.

19 A. Well, we didn't have any water for bathing. All we had was some

20 sort of field toilet. If they allowed us to we would use this field

21 toilet. That was a little further away. It was in the grounds of

22 Betonirka.

23 Q. You say "if they allowed us to." Can you explain that. Were you

24 not -- when were you allowed to and when were you not allowed to use the

25 field toilet?

Page 7958

1 A. Usually when we had breakfast or lunch we asked if we could use

2 the toilet.

3 Q. And what would you do if you were not given permission? What

4 would you have to do?

5 A. On one occasion we were given bad food which had been left outside

6 in the heat, so people had stomach cramps and pains. And I apologise. I

7 have to say this. They had -- people had to relieve themselves into nylon

8 bags because they wouldn't open the doors and let us out.

9 Q. Tell the Chamber some more about what food you were provided with

10 during those 31 days or so that you were held there.

11 A. In the morning we usually had tea and a slice of bread for

12 breakfast. Food would be brought in from the kitchen for lunch, which was

13 in the MUP building. The kitchen was in the MUP building.

14 Q. And was this good food? Did you have enough to eat? Did you feel

15 that you were being adequately provided for?

16 A. No. Sometimes we weren't even able to eat that food because the

17 guards asked us -- demanded that we eat it in five minutes' time. And

18 this food was very hot, so you could only take a slice of bread and return

19 to the garage. Otherwise we would have burned ourselves.

20 Q. And what about water? Were you given enough water and --

21 A. No. We didn't have enough water, but we were given water.

22 Q. What was the temperature like in that garage in the summer of 1992

23 when you were held there?

24 A. The temperatures were very high. You could imagine. We were

25 surrounded by concrete. The windows were blocked. The door was a metal

Page 7959

1 door. So on one day when Martic, the commander of the shift, was there --

2 he didn't let us have lunch or breakfast. We were shut in all day long,

3 and it was impossible to endure this. People just fainted.

4 Q. How many hours a day would you typically spend in that garage with

5 all those other men? You said you had five minutes to run out and get

6 food, so I'm wondering how long you would normally have to spend in the

7 garage.

8 A. Well, I've just said -- I've just mentioned one occasion. It

9 depended on the shift that was there. Sometimes we would spend half an

10 hour outside. That was the maximum. But as I have said -- I've told you

11 about this case. There was a case in the evening too. We were ordered

12 that we -- to stand up from 7.00 in the evening up until 7.00 in the

13 morning, and we weren't allowed to sleep. And Martic, the shift

14 commander, ordered Kravic Milan the guard to control us every ten

15 minutes -- to check to see if someone had fallen asleep. If someone had

16 sat down, that person knew what he could expect.

17 Q. What could that person expect, somebody who hadn't obeyed that

18 order and had fallen asleep?

19 A. Well, that person would be taken away to a room. There was

20 another office -- another hut which was used as an office, since it was a

21 construction firm. And that person would then be beaten.

22 Q. How often were people taken out of your garage, the one you were

23 held at, and beaten?

24 A. On average for several hours.

25 Q. My question though is: How often would somebody be taken out and

Page 7960

1 beaten? Not how long they would be beaten for, but how many times a day

2 or how often in a week would somebody be taken out and be beaten by the

3 guards?

4 A. Well, it was very seldom that someone would not be beaten.

5 Usually when people were arrested or captured they had to go through this

6 torture when entering the Betonirka.

7 Q. Can you tell me what these people would look like when they came

8 back from being beaten, what -- what a prisoner -- what you would -- what

9 they would look like, what you would see when somebody came back from

10 being beaten.

11 A. You could see that they had difficulty in enduring those blows and

12 the pain. You could see that they had cramps. You couldn't touch anyone

13 anywhere. If you touched anyone, the -- you'd be told, "Don't touch me.

14 That hurts me -- it hurts me here. It hurts me everywhere."

15 Q. Were you personally beaten while you were held there for that

16 period?

17 A. No. Only on one occasion by Martic. I was hit by Martic. I was

18 slapped by Martic on one occasion.

19 Q. Do you remember Martic -- this Martic you're speaking of, do you

20 remember his first name?

21 A. I can't remember that. He was the shift commander. He'd been

22 born in Kljevci. He was a lot younger than I was, so I can't remember

23 that. He grew up in Kljevci.

24 Q. Who ran the Betonirka prison? Do you know who was in charge of

25 running it?

Page 7961

1 A. Drago Vujanic ran it and Krunic Milorad was the deputy.

2 Q. And were these policemen, civilians? Can you describe which

3 authority was in charge of this prison?

4 A. Mr. Drago Vujanic was a lawyer by profession. So he was the

5 chief of the department where passports and identity cards were issued,

6 whereas Milorad Krunic was a retired policeman.

7 Q. Now, were any types of people, did it seem to you, specially

8 selected for beatings or for mistreatment?

9 A. No. It didn't make any difference. If it was an ordinary man or

10 a Muslim, they didn't pay attention to -- to differences. They didn't

11 distinguish between anyone.

12 Q. Let mow just ask you about something in your statement. You talk

13 about a man named Enver Burnic. Can you describe how he was beaten.

14 A. Yes. Well, on the 28th of June, that's when they had a religious

15 day. Martic came. He was drunk. He came in the afternoon with two young

16 men, 16 and 17 years of age. They were wearing police uniforms. They

17 called him and asked him to come out, and the guards took him to that

18 room, to those offices, where people would be tortured.

19 Q. And what happened? Did you see him after he came back,

20 Mr. Burnic?

21 A. He begged them to stop beating him. He said that he would rather

22 they killed him. However, Martic said, "A bullet is too costly for you.

23 You're going to die. That's for sure. But your death will be a slow

24 one."

25 Q. And what was Mr. Burnic's job or position before he'd been

Page 7962

1 arrested and locked up with you?

2 A. He was a police commander.

3 Q. Now, were any of these people who were locked up in that cell with

4 you -- to your knowledge were any of these people involved in any form of

5 armed resistance or rebellion?

6 A. No, none of them.

7 Q. What kind of people were they who were being held in there with

8 you, held in the Betonirka garages while you were there?

9 A. They were ordinary citizens from Sanski Most, and they were of

10 Muslim ethnicity. And there were Croats too.

11 Q. You've talked about these beatings that occurred on a -- I think

12 it's -- what I'm getting from what you say, a daily basis. Was any

13 medical care provided for the victims?

14 A. No. No. The people who came, they would return to the garage.

15 We'd give them water if we had any. We would put wet cloths on them.

16 That's the only thing we could do.

17 Q. Now, you weren't physically beaten. You've told us that. But

18 what happened to you physically as a result of being kept in this small

19 room with that many men in that heat for 31 days? How did you feel?

20 A. Well, I lost some weight, and I felt ill later on, since there was

21 a concrete floor and it was cold. I had problems and I had haemorrhoids,

22 so I had terrible pains for four or five days. And that was due to the

23 bad nutrition and to the conditions we were in and to everything else.

24 Q. Now, that time you were there were you able to change your clothes

25 at all, were you able to wash your clothes, or did you -- how long did you

Page 7963

1 have to keep wearing the same set of clothes that you wore when you were

2 arrested and when you were brought in?

3 A. No. Only on one occasion, on the 11 of June. My elder brother

4 brought me a change of clothes.

5 Q. Now, I'm almost done talking about this topic, but if you know who

6 was actually doing the beatings? You say that men were brought out of the

7 cells and taken and were beaten and then were brought back and you could

8 see that they'd been severely beaten. But who -- who was beating the

9 prisoners?

10 A. Well, the worst shift was when Commander Milan Cetkovic, known

11 as Dzo Banana was there, and the guard Veselinovic whose first name I

12 don't know. Martic when he was the guard commander and Milan Kravic,

13 another guard, Milenko Mrkanovic, Savo Mrkanovic, that was another shift.

14 Q. Why was Cetkovic, the person you say with the nickname Banana, why

15 was his shift -- why do you call that the worst shift?

16 A. Well, because torture would take place during their shifts, and

17 that happened during his shift when the food was left outside in the -- in

18 the sun. I don't know how you would interpret this, but he said that

19 after we had been poisoned, he said, "It would be better for my pigs to

20 eat this food than you balijas, you Muslims." We had food poisons, we who

21 were in the first garage, and we banged on the door and begged them to

22 open the door but they wouldn't let us go to the toilet.

23 Q. And this is fairly obvious too, but with that many men in one of

24 these garages to just hold a single vehicle, was there enough room at

25 night for everybody to sleep? Were you able to sleep at night?

Page 7964

1 A. Well, it was impossible to sleep because you'd -- you were

2 expecting to be called out at any time, because they took people away to

3 beat them. So it was very rarely that one was able to sleep.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I know we'll probably be breaking in

5 about seven minutes. If -- I'm going to move on to a new topic. I don't

6 know if you prefer to break early.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That suits us fine. We will break now, resuming at

8 five to 4.00, please. Thank you.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.


12 Q. One question I should have asked you before we broke, about the

13 men that you were held with in the Betonirka garages. What was the age

14 range of your fellow prisoners, to the best of your memory? What was the

15 youngest -- the age of the youngest person there and the age of the oldest

16 person there based on your personal knowledge of the 31 days that you were

17 held in the garage?

18 A. The youngest was about 20, and the oldest was about 65.

19 Q. Well, let me try to refresh your recollection. Do you remember

20 making a statement and giving it to the Office of the Prosecutor

21 investigator?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That's all right. I'll move on.

24 I want to start talking now about how you came to leave Betonirka

25 garage and transferred -- were transferred to Manjaca camp. And we'll go

Page 7965

1 through this step by step. First of all, can you tell me what the date

2 was. What's the last -- what day was the last morning you remember being

3 at the Betonirka garages?

4 A. It was the 7th of July, 1992.

5 Q. Now, that morning did you know you were going to be leaving

6 Betonirka?

7 A. We didn't know. It was only after breakfast when the call-out

8 started. Seven or eight men were separated, and they were taken to the

9 SUP, and we stayed on in the garages.

10 Q. Again, just for clarity, the SUP is also what is now known as the

11 MUP; correct?

12 A. Yes. Yes, the police station.

13 Q. And that building was just behind the Betonirka garages, a short

14 ways behind it, across a field.

15 A. Yes, just behind the Betonirka construction company.

16 Q. Okay. What were you told after breakfast about how you were going

17 to be leaving the camp -- the garages?

18 A. We didn't know anything. But I asked a guard called Savo, "Tell

19 us what's happening." And he said, "You're going to Manjaca." And I

20 asked, "Am I going too?" And he said, "You're first on the list."

21 Q. What time of day was it when you actually left the garage, when

22 you were told, "Okay. Out"?

23 A. We left when we all got onto the truck and it was closed, it was

24 about 12.00.

25 Q. What was the -- what kind of -- what was the temperature at noon

Page 7966

1 that day?

2 A. It's the month of July, the summer, and it was very hot.

3 Q. How many men from your garage were taken out to be put on this

4 truck?

5 A. From all three garages people were called out, and you lined up

6 and got onto the truck.

7 Q. You've talked a lot about beatings at the Betonirka garages. Was

8 anybody beaten that morning or that day before leaving?

9 A. Yes. Rufad Zukic was called out by a guard called Veselinovic,

10 and he took him to this office where he was beaten up and he came back

11 crawling, and we had to draw him -- drag him into the garage. Also a

12 Croat who was beaten by soldiers, and they brought the handle of -- broke

13 the handle of a broom over him.

14 Q. When you say "crawling," do you mean that literally? Crawling on

15 his hands and knees? Or do you --

16 A. On all fours, yes. On his knees and hands. He had been beaten so

17 badly that he couldn't walk.

18 Q. Were you personally threatened in any way or beaten?

19 A. This guard Veselinovic came inside and started from the door. I

20 was standing in the corner and he was holding a knife. He came up to me,

21 pointed the knife at my neck, and asked me, "How are you doing, Delic?"

22 What could I answer but saying yes. And then he said, "Take off

23 everything you have on your hands because it will be taken anyway at

24 Manjaca."

25 Q. Now, the truck pulls up in front of the garages; is that right?

Page 7967

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please describe the truck to the Chamber, as best as you

3 can remember it.

4 A. Nothing. We were called out in order according to the list, and

5 we all had to run out. We had to run between two lines and climb onto the

6 truck.

7 Q. Run between two lines of what? What do you mean by "run between

8 two lines"?

9 A. Two lines of guards, policemen, just in case anyone were to try to

10 go outside these two lines so as to make sure that we got onto the truck.

11 Q. Did anything happen to anybody while they were running between

12 those two lines of people to get onto the truck?

13 A. I don't know. This went on very quickly. I was among the first

14 to get onto the truck, so I climbed right to the front of the truck.

15 Q. Okay. Now, my earlier question, which I'm not sure you

16 understood, was to describe the truck. Can you just tell Their Honours

17 whether this was a civilian truck if you know or a military truck and

18 about how large the compartment was where the prisoners had -- were loaded

19 into, how high it was, how wide it was, and how long it was.

20 A. It was a civilian truck, not very big. I don't know the exact

21 size, but it was too small for the number of men who got on. There was an

22 orange rubbery tarpaulin, but I don't know exactly how long and how wide

23 it was.

24 Q. I didn't expect you to remember the exact dimensions. That's

25 okay.

Page 7968












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7969

1 You said it was too small for the amount of men. Do you remember

2 how many men got on the truck?

3 A. Some 60 or so. About 60. Maybe one or two more. And it was too

4 small, so we sat in each other's lap. We couldn't really move.

5 Q. You said there was a rubber -- rubber sort of orange tarpaulin.

6 Can you describe how that was attached to the truck, how tightly and how

7 much space was left between the tarpaulin and the truck.

8 A. It was tightened, as it is normal to do for transport. And if

9 anyone were to try to do anything, we would get beaten with a truncheon.

10 There were policemen walking round the truck all the time, so that we

11 couldn't try to do anything.

12 Q. You said you were one of the first people onto the truck. What --

13 where did you -- what position did you take? Where were you sitting or

14 standing?

15 A. Right in the corner at the front, from the -- when you are looking

16 from the cabin backwards.

17 Q. Now, you said that it wasn't big enough for all these men, these

18 60 or so men, and that you were kind of sitting on each other. And in

19 your statement, you said you were like sardines. When you were at the

20 front behind the cab, can you -- was it so tight that you were being

21 pushed into it, or did you have room to move around at all? I want you to

22 try to describe how packed it was in that truck, if you can.

23 A. There wasn't any space. We were so packed that we couldn't move

24 around. We would trample on each other. That was the only way to move.

25 Q. Now, were there any rips, holes, or openings in this tarpaulin or

Page 7970

1 any way that you could open it yourself from the inside if you wanted to

2 look out or get some air?

3 A. As I was the first right up there, while we were parked I tried to

4 look through a small hole through which the rope is threaded to tighten

5 the tarpaulin to see where we were, and when I peeped out -- it's a small

6 hole -- I was hit with a truncheon, so that after that I didn't even try,

7 because he said if anyone tried, he would kill us.

8 Q. To be clear, other than that small hole or eyelet which you tried

9 to look out which you said was for tying the tarpaulin down with the

10 ropes, were there any other holes, or was that the only type of hole in

11 the tarpaulin is what I'm trying to ask you.

12 A. No, I didn't see any. Everything was very tight. If we would try

13 to push with our own hands, again, we would get blows and threats that

14 they would kill us if we tried to do it again.

15 Q. Now, you got on the truck about noon. And it was closed up, I

16 take it. You were locked in there. You said you couldn't get out. Where

17 did the truck go and what time did it leave? Did it leave right at noon,

18 or were you on the truck awhile before it left?

19 A. We were taken to the sports hall where another 500 or 600 men who

20 had been detained there from Mahala joined us. And we stood there for

21 about three or four hours. And the heat was the worst there. You can

22 imagine. In the sunshine when you're standing there, there's no shade.

23 There's nothing to protect you.

24 Q. And when you say "standing there," you mean that the truck was

25 parked outside the sports hall?

Page 7971

1 A. Yes, we were parked there, and we were waiting for the rest of the

2 men to get on. But this took a long time, so that during those first few

3 hours already people started to lose consciousness. They were crying out

4 for help, but there was no help coming. There was a young man of 17, and

5 he was the first to start fainting. We tried to revive him by slapping

6 him, but he had turned blue already. And a couple of kilometres later on

7 our way to Manjaca he died.

8 Q. When you first got on the truck at Betonirka with all these

9 people, were you given any food and water for the journey ahead of you?

10 A. No. When people were called out, only just one man managed to get

11 a bit of water. But even that small amount of water didn't help him

12 survive.

13 Q. When you were parked at the sports hall -- I think it's clear, but

14 just to be certain -- for those hours, was anybody allowed off of the

15 truck? Was anybody provided with any water at that point?

16 A. No. We couldn't get off. I said before, if we were to try to do

17 anything, to move the tarpaulin with our hand, we would be beaten and

18 threatened, that if we didn't stop we would get killed.

19 Q. Did you try to move the tarpaulin at all yourself and were you

20 beaten at all? I'm speaking of you personally.

21 A. Only on the first occasion that I told you about, when I peeped

22 through that hole, and that is when I got a blow. After that I didn't try

23 again, and I couldn't anyway.

24 Q. Now, then while you were parked at the sports hall, that's when

25 people began to faint or pass out from the heat.

Page 7972

1 A. Yes. People already started to pass out, and they started tearing

2 off their clothes. It was intolerable. This was a life-and-death

3 struggle, which many failed to survive.

4 Q. You say that the first person to die was this 17-year-old man --

5 young man. Do you remember his last name or first name?

6 A. Hukanovic Sevdaga from Vrhpolje. He was detained in the SUP, and

7 that day he was brought from the cell in the SUP to be transported to

8 Manjaca.

9 Q. Now, when that young man died, that was while the truck was

10 already moving again. Correct me if I'm wrong. That was after you'd left

11 the parking area at the sports hall?

12 A. Yes. We had already set off on the journey.

13 Q. And please continue. Tell me what happened on that next part of

14 the journey after leaving the sports hall as you went towards Manjaca.

15 A. I can tell you that it was dreadful. People were struggling to

16 remain alive. They were trying to catch some air in one way or another,

17 and there was no chance. It just depended on the strength of the

18 organism, because people had already been mistreated and there was no

19 water and people started to drink their own urine, so it was really

20 dreadful.

21 Q. How long did you remain on that truck from leaving the sports hall

22 until it arrived at Manjaca? How long was that journey -- that part of

23 the journey?

24 A. About eight to nine hours. It was a long journey.

25 Q. What time -- I know it's difficult for you to tell, but what time

Page 7973

1 do you think it was approximately when you arrived at Manjaca, when the

2 truck finally stopped there?

3 A. About 9.00. The sun had set when we got there. When the truck

4 was parked and when they lifted the tarpaulin and told us to get off.

5 Q. So you spent about -- and all the other men spent about nine hours

6 on that truck with the tarpaulin tied down from leaving Betonirka till the

7 arrival, is that right, arrival at Manjaca?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. And I think you said the sun was setting or had set when you

10 arrived. When you got to Manjaca, what happened? What did you see? Were

11 you allowed off the truck right away, or did it park there and did you

12 stay on it for some time? Describe what happened at the end of this

13 journey.

14 A. When we arrived there and when the truck stopped, the other trucks

15 with trailers were parked behind us with the men from the sports hall.

16 Then they opened the tarpaulin and then they said that we should get off.

17 However, it was only then that we saw what had happened with the men who

18 were with me on the truck. We were told to get off, whereas I and two

19 other men were told to take out the bodies of 17 or 18 men who had

20 suffocated or had a heat stroke or whatever - I don't know myself - and

21 then these others who were alive were lined up outside and stood waiting.

22 So we carried them all out and lined them up where we were told to do

23 that.

24 Q. Now, you said in your statement -- you characterise the way these

25 men died as slow and agonising, that they would pant for air, hallucinate,

Page 7974

1 finally faint, and that you would try to slap them back into consciousness

2 to keep them aware or alive and it didn't work. Is that -- do you stand

3 by that statement? Is that accurate, or do you have anything to add?

4 A. Yes. Whatever you have said is correct.

5 Q. Now, once they lifted that tarpaulin - and I take it that's when

6 you realised how many people had died - were there any people amongst --

7 on your truck who had not died but who were ill or in very bad shape?

8 A. Yes. Those men who were in poor shape, we carried them out too

9 and lined them up together with those who had already died.

10 Q. And approximately -- I don't expect you to remember - maybe you

11 do - how many men were there who needed -- who were still alive at this

12 point but who needed to be carried off the truck because they couldn't

13 move themselves?

14 A. About 35, counting us as well who were carrying out the dead, as

15 far as I can remember.

16 Q. Now, you said when you got there, and they pulled back the

17 tarpaulin. Who was it who started giving orders when you arrived? Who

18 said you guys get off the truck, you carry the dead, you help those people

19 who are sick, who was giving orders at that point?

20 A. You mean the policemen who were in the transport and the leader of

21 the convoy in a car accompanying the convoy was Dosenovic Drago, also

22 known as Maca, and also there was the warden of the camp nicknamed Spaga.

23 Q. Now, do you know who -- who was the warden of the camp? What was

24 his position? You've said his name and that he was a warden, but was he a

25 policeman, a soldier, a civilian authority? Do you know who was in charge

Page 7975

1 of Manjaca camp?

2 A. He was wearing a military uniform.

3 Q. And what did he say or do when he -- when he saw that this

4 transport had arrived and that there were 17 or 18 men who had died on the

5 way? What was his reaction?

6 A. He said that the men who were on their feet and who were all right

7 should enter the camp and those who were dead and who were lying down

8 should be taken back to Sanski Most and that the people from Sanski Most

9 should be held responsible for them.

10 Q. And is that what happened? Were the -- what happened then to the

11 people who --

12 A. But before that he called the three of us, among those who were --

13 who had survived, and the policeman Mrsic who was nearby, he spoke to

14 Enver Burnic, and a Croat, Vicko Mauzner, and he told them to get off and

15 help these men. And the warden Spaga asked whether there was a doctor

16 around to help these people, so that in this transport behind us there was

17 some 500 or 600 other men from the sports hall -- Biscevic answered, a

18 twin, the son of Faik, who was a dentist by profession, and he stayed

19 there. And it was already dark and we were ordered to go inside into the

20 camp. We entered, 50 in a line at a time. So these stayed behind me, so

21 I don't know what happened to them, those who were dead and the few that

22 were still alive. Those men are registered as missing.

23 Q. Let me just make sure this is clear. Mr. Burnic, Mr. Mauzner, and

24 Mr. Mauzner were ordered to load the bodies of the dead back on the truck

25 and help those who were still alive; is that right?

Page 7976

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. And --

3 A. No. These bodies were already on the ground, and they told them,

4 "We don't know. We entered the camp, and those who were lying down

5 remained there. And the transport escort -- I know nothing else. They

6 are listed as missing. We then entered the camp.

7 Q. And this dentist -- you said somebody named Biscevic who was on a

8 different truck answered the call as somebody who was willing to try to

9 help.

10 A. Yes. Yes, and he separated from the group and went to where these

11 people were lying.

12 Q. The translation -- the transcript on page 43, line 22 has

13 Mr. Mauzner and Mr. Mauzner twice. I think for clarify it was only -- I

14 said it once.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what -- that's what we heard. And I think

16 that's what you said, because I -- I perfectly remember you saying

17 Mr. Mauzner twice, actually.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Oh. I apologise.

19 Q. Now, do you know what happened to these three men who stayed

20 outside to help while you went into the camp?

21 A. I don't know. We tried to find out, when after a long period of

22 time we were able to establish contact, because there was the first camp

23 and the second camp in Manjaca, but no one knew anything because it was

24 already night -- no one knew what had happened to those people.

25 Q. How many trucks -- you've talked about your -- the small truck

Page 7977

1 that you were on. How many other trucks when you got off at Manjaca --

2 could you tell how many trucks there were in total in that on -- convoy to

3 Manjaca?

4 A. About four or five trailers, big ones. I think about a hundred

5 people could get in them. There were about 500 or 600 of us who were

6 transported to Manjaca on that day.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I show the witness Prosecution Exhibit P698,

8 please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have an extra copy, Mr. Nicholls, to put on

10 the ELMO, please.


12 Q. Now, if you take a look at that. It's a 1st Krajina Corps command

13 report from the 8th of July, 1992, and it's got at the top "Strictly

14 confidential. Number 44/1-223." Is that the same document that you have

15 before you in your language?

16 A. Yes. I've got it.

17 Q. This is a combat report to the main staff of the Serbian Republic

18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina army.

19 A. Yes. Item 4, situation on the ground, where it says: "Gradual

20 mopping up of the Kotor Varos area. During the afternoon of 7 July, 1992,

21 600 prisoners of war were brought from Sanski Most."

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop. The interpreter who is

23 translating into English for us, please speak into the microphone.

24 Because I know that you are translating, but we can't hear a single word

25 of it. Thank you.

Page 7978


2 Q. Actually, let me stop you, sir, and ask a question. We can go on

3 that way.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so, yes. Go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.


6 Q. Now, in you look at item 4, which I think is what you had begun to

7 look on yourself, that reads: "Gradual mopping up of the Kotor Varos area

8 continues. During the afternoon of 7 July 1992, 600 prisoners of war were

9 brought from Sanski Most."

10 And then if we skip to section 5, it states that "There have been

11 no unusual incidents."

12 Is that what your -- is that what you read on your B/C/S version?

13 A. Yes, that's what it says.

14 Q. And that figure of 600 prisoners would -- on the 7th of July would

15 correspond to what you've told us about the amount of men you believe were

16 transferred to Manjaca that day; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's the convoy that I mentioned in 1992.

18 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you some questions now about what it was like

19 for you while you were in Manjaca camp. But first of all, can you tell me

20 how long you were imprisoned at Manjaca.

21 A. I was there from the 7th of July, 1992 up until the 14th of

22 December, 1992.

23 Q. And again, the same questions I asked you about when you arrived

24 at Betonirka. Were you told how long you would be kept there? Were you

25 told why you were there? Were you charged with any crime or given an

Page 7979

1 explanation of why you were not -- why you were being held a prisoner?

2 A. No, they didn't explain anything to us, and we didn't have any

3 contact with them. We were just imprisoned. We were just placed in those

4 stables. That's what they called them. There were two camps with three

5 big stables and up to 600 people on average could be placed in them.

6 Q. Now, do you -- if you know, who was guarding the inside of the

7 camp? Who were the guards on the inside of the camp, as opposed to the

8 outside?

9 A. Around the camp there were guards, and then at the gate to the

10 camp. When we arrived, there were reserve policemen from Kljuc there.

11 Later policemen from Sanski Most came who were also guards, and they

12 guarded us. And finally, there were military policemen, guards who stood

13 guard over us.

14 Q. Now, I think after the conditions you've described that you were

15 held in at Betonirka, over all conditions at Manjaca were an improvement;

16 is that correct?

17 A. No, they weren't better because we were put in the stables and we

18 had to lie down on the ground. There was nothing there. The conditions

19 were nonexistent. It's not possible for me to say that the conditions

20 were any better than those at Betonirka.

21 Q. While you were at Manjaca, were you personally beaten?

22 A. No. But the following day, on the 8th, they started calling 20

23 people out to go for questioning, and they would return from this

24 questioning after having been beaten up.

25 Q. And again, what types of people were with you in your stable in

Page 7980

1 Manjaca? If you can just briefly describe whether these were civilians or

2 soldiers or rebels or people involved in any kind of armed resistance. If

3 you know, if you could tell us.

4 A. No. These people were ordinary citizens.

5 Q. Now, did you personally see anybody murdered in Manjaca camp?

6 A. No. But Mr. Sabanovic came -- Mr. Mulalic Emir, a policeman who

7 was beaten when questioned. He succumbed to his wounds. And

8 Mr. Sabanovic came, he was escorted by the police, and he said that Emir

9 Mulalic had died of a heart attack.

10 A. How often did you see people being called out and then see them

11 return and -- in cases in which you could tell that they had obviously

12 been beaten? How often did that happen?

13 A. Initially that was on the 14th of July when the Red Cross arrived

14 in Manjaca.

15 Q. And what happened after that? You -- well, first could you answer

16 my question. About how often did you see -- was it just the one time that

17 you saw people called out to be beaten, or how often?

18 A. Well, that was the first week, one week before the arrival --

19 before the arrival of the Red Cross in Manjaca it occurred every day.

20 Q. And did things improve after the arrival of the Red Cross? Can

21 you tell me what happened after, you say, the 14th of July?

22 A. Nothing improved. It wasn't until later when the Red Cross --

23 towards the end of August, the food was better.

24 Q. And during the time that you were there, were you personally

25 forced to do any work inside the camp or outside the camp by the guards?

Page 7981

1 A. Yes. We were taken away to do forced labour. We went to dig

2 canals. People went to build churches. Others went to dig up potatoes.

3 Others went to fell trees and so on.

4 Q. And you said the food got better. Was there enough to eat? If

5 you can just give us a general idea of whether you felt you had enough to

6 eat during the day when you were there.

7 A. Do you mean during the period before the Red Cross started feeding

8 us, or from the time they started providing us with food?

9 Q. Just tell me briefly before and after what the conditions were.

10 A. Well, before that, the food was very bad. In the morning we'd get

11 half a cup of tea without any sugar and a slice of bread. And for lunch

12 you'd get a potato and a bit of cabbage, but there was no salt. And then

13 with such food -- having had such food, people would have to go to work.

14 That was when we got up. Because of this lack of vitamins, we had to get

15 up slowly in order to establish our balance, because people often fell

16 over before they were able to stand in a stable manner and to move

17 normally.

18 Q. And then later on --

19 A. Later on, after the Red Cross had arrived, the food was normal.

20 Q. And now, just tell us about your release from Manjaca. When did

21 you learn you were going to be released? Or did you learn in advance?

22 A. We only heard that there were negotiations. But the first group

23 from Manjaca, they were people who -- who had been born in 1953 -- up to

24 1953, about 700 people left. That was on the 14th of November, 1992. We

25 left after one month, on the 14th of December. And the day before we'd

Page 7982

1 been called out -- but on that morning, when this call-out was to take

2 place, the Red Cross wasn't allowed to enter. They had brought food for

3 us. And policemen came with lists. They entered into each stable and

4 they said, "All the Croats are to take their blankets and go outside.

5 They're to go outside the camp." And then they called out another 300

6 Muslims from the Prijedor, Sana, and Kljuc areas. So 520 people in total

7 were taken out. They were put into buses, and they left to the -- they

8 went in the direction of the Batkovici camp. And in the afternoon these

9 same people were called out. They were to leave with us. The first group

10 was the 1.040, because there were three phases for leaving, the 14th, and

11 the 18th, and the 20th of December. So these people were called out and

12 they were taken to the Batkovici camp.

13 Q. And you've told me about the people who were there with you. If

14 you can just remember, what was the youngest person in your stable and

15 what was the oldest person at any time while you were there, their ages?

16 A. Well, there were some minors, 16 or 17 years old, and up to 62, 63

17 years of age.

18 Q. And then after you were finally released in December 1992, you

19 eventually reunited with your wife and your child and moved back to Sanski

20 Most some five years later.

21 A. Yes. On the 10th of April, 1997, that's when I returned to Sanski

22 Most.

23 Q. When you returned, did you rebuild your house? It's the same one

24 which had been damaged I'm speaking about.

25 A. Yes. I rebuilt the first floor, what had been damaged, but I

Page 7983

1 didn't find anything in the house. Everything that was there had been

2 taken away.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think I have any further questions, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Who will go first?

9 Yes. Now, Mr. Zecevic, we are proposing to you to have the break

10 now and -- the same break that we intended to have. Instead of having it

11 at ten past or quarter past 5.00, we'll have it now. And then you will

12 have one stretch in which you can conduct and finish -- possibly your

13 cross-examination.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is agreeable. If you prefer to start now --

16 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I am fine with the decision of the Trial

17 Chamber.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Twenty minutes' break.

19 --- Recess taken at 4.50 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 5.17 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Delic, you are now going to be cross-examined by

22 Mr. Zecevic, who is the lead counsel for General Talic. I must point out

23 to you that Mr. Zecevic has a duty to defend his client, and he will be

24 asking questions not because he has got anything against you but he --

25 because he has precisely this duty, to defend his client. So please

Page 7984

1 understand that before I give Mr. Zecevic the go ahead. Thank you.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Before I start, may I ask my learned colleagues from the

4 Prosecutor to provide the witness's statement which was given in September

5 2001, because I will make a reference. In B/C/S, please.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Delic.

8 A. Good afternoon to you too.

9 Q. Mr. Delic, my name is Slobodan Zecevic, and I'm going to ask you

10 a few questions. But please, could you make a break after I have put a

11 question to you for the sake of the interpreters, you know.

12 A. Very well.

13 Q. Mr. Delic, you gave a statement to investigators for the OTP in

14 September on the 12th and 13th of September, 2001; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you have that statement in front of you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that the statement that you gave to the OTP?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I assume --

21 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Something is wrong with

22 the earphones. I cannot follow the interpreters. That's why.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, when you came to The Hague, this

24 statement was certainly shown to you when you spoke to the Prosecution;

25 isn't that correct?

Page 7985

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. In that statement you said, on page 2, the fourth

3 paragraph, that the Serbian defence forces arrived in Sanski Most probably

4 towards the end of 1991 or at the beginning of 1992; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you stand by this claim?

7 A. Well, I know that this all took place in April 1992.

8 Q. When you said that they arrived, where did they arrive from?

9 A. That part came. It was the 6th Krajina Brigade, which was in

10 Croatia.

11 Q. I'm asking you about the Serbian defence forces.

12 A. No. The Serbian -- I only know about the 6th Krajina Brigade.

13 And SOS stands for the Serbian defence forces. That's a unit that was

14 established -- was founded in Sanski Most.

15 Q. So that unit, the SOS unit, the Serbian defence forces, was

16 founded in Sanski Most. It didn't come from anywhere. Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes. That's a unit from Sanski Most, and it consisted of men from

18 Sanski Most, from the town.

19 Q. Njunja was the commander of that unit; isn't that right?

20 A. Dusan Saovic, known as Njunja. That's right.

21 Q. On that same page, there are two sentences -- two sentences below

22 the one that you have just read out, you said that the SOS differed from

23 the 6th Krajina Brigade on the basis of their uniforms. At that time they

24 wore camouflage uniforms, and later all soldiers wore camouflage uniforms

25 too.

Page 7986

1 A. Yes. The 6th Krajina was there when there was an attack. They

2 were wearing reserve uniforms. These were winter uniforms, warm ones, and

3 later on they wore these camouflage uniforms.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. One moment. May I remind both of you,

5 please, to speak more slowly and to allow an interval between question and

6 answer and between answer and question, because in spite of all the

7 previous exultations, neither of you is following the -- the rule. And I

8 can see -- I can -- I'm following the interpreters. I can see that they

9 are having great difficulties in trying to follow both of you. Thanks.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, do you know what sort of uniforms the

12 Territorial Defence wore?

13 A. Well, they wore olive-drab uniforms. These are winter uniforms.

14 Q. So on the basis of what these uniforms looked like, you were not

15 able to determine who belonged to a certain unit.

16 A. These were reservists who had those warm winter uniforms, and

17 these other men had thinner summer uniforms.

18 Q. When you say "these other people," who are you referring to?

19 A. That is the unit led by Dusan Saovic, known as Njunja, the SOS.

20 Q. A minute ago you said that they wore camouflage uniforms, if I'm

21 not mistaken.

22 A. Later on they wore camouflage uniforms. And other witnesses can

23 confirm this. But I didn't see them very often. I only saw them when I

24 was present there.

25 Q. Thank you. Today you told us about the fact that sometime in

Page 7987












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7988

1 February, if I'm not mistaken, a grenade or some sort of explosive device

2 was thrown into the law office of Mr. Sabic's, which is across the road

3 from the court?

4 A. Yes. That was towards the end of February -- and as I worked in

5 the court -- well, yes, that happened in the evening, and we noticed this

6 in the morning when we turned up for work.

7 Q. Please slow down.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Delic, please allow a little bit of time before

9 you start answering -- because you are very quick. Okay? As soon as --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: As soon as Mr. Zecevic finishes his question, you

12 don't -- you don't give the interpreters a chance to translate it into

13 English or into French to us, so please allow that little bit of time, an

14 interval of time, for the interpreter's sake and for our sake. Thank

15 you.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. As this took place -- this happened across the road from the

18 court, you worked in the court, and you are aware of the fact that an

19 investigation was conducted into this; isn't that so?

20 A. Yes. An investigation was carried out.

21 Q. Do you know that on that occasion they used dogs too?

22 A. No, I don't know about that. I am not aware of that part of the

23 investigation because I was not present.

24 Q. And tell me, Mr. Sabic, Suad Sabic, the lawyer, he was also a

25 member of the core SDA leadership in Sanski Most; isn't that right?

Page 7989

1 A. No. I don't know, because I don't belong to any party and I had

2 nothing to do with such activities.

3 Q. Do you know whether he was a member of the SDA?

4 A. No. I know nothing about that, because I wasn't involved in

5 politics.

6 Q. Tell me, today when speaking to the Prosecutor, on several

7 occasions you said that during that period, from the end of February up

8 until April, it was mostly business premises, shops belonging to Muslims

9 and Croats -- it was mostly such buildings that were blown up; isn't that

10 right?

11 A. Yes. And my house too.

12 Q. Tell me, do you remember that a Serbian cafe was blown up on the

13 14th of April?

14 A. No, I don't recall such an event.

15 Q. You told us that you delivered court summons, and you also worked

16 as a driver for the court. You took --

17 A. Yes. I delivered court summons, but in 1986 I stopped, as a

18 driver, we didn't have a vehicle.

19 Q. Did the investigating judge go to carry out on-site investigations

20 following these explosions?

21 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. Only two inspectors came to

22 carry out an on-site investigation in my house when my house was blown

23 up.

24 Q. Tell me, given that you delivered court summonses, you probably

25 got around town quite a lot; isn't that right?

Page 7990

1 A. Yes. Yes. I delivered the mail. Naturally.

2 Q. You know that the SDA in Sanski Most had its own command posts.

3 A. No. I wasn't aware of that.

4 Q. The old fire brigade building.

5 A. No, I don't know about that.

6 Q. Pobrijezje?

7 A. No. I don't know. I didn't go around the village -- villages. I

8 was only responsible for the town area.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. -- one moment. Mr. Nicholls.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: I think he's answered the question about whether he

11 knew about any of these command posts. He said he didn't know about any

12 of them.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But that was in Sanski Most. Now he was

14 asked about the other place -- whatever it is. I mean -- yeah. So

15 let's -- let's go ahead. Thank you.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Delic, during your examination-in-chief you

18 said -- I think it was on the 15th of April that there was a meeting in

19 court.

20 A. I apologise. Not on the 15th of April. The 15th of May.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The same mistake was made before. And he corrected

22 it, saying that it was the 15th of May.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: I think now it's correct.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: It was I who said 15th of April, not the witness.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... we're talking

Page 7991

1 of the 15th of May, anyway.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Tell me please, at that meeting you said that you were required to

4 sign an oath of loyalty.

5 A. Yes, a kind of oath of loyalty. Yes.

6 Q. This was required of the judges. Not of you as well, was it?

7 A. No. It was required of us too, not just of the judges.

8 Q. Tell me please, Mr. Delic, when you started working in the court

9 in the former Yugoslavia -- do you need the assistance of the usher?

10 A. No. It's fine. Thank you.

11 Thank you very much.

12 Q. Let me repeat. When you started working in the court during the

13 time of the former Yugoslavia, you didn't sign any kind of oath.

14 A. No. That went through the employment bureau.

15 Q. But the judges did, didn't they?

16 A. The judges were elected and they had to take an oath.

17 Q. The same applied to prosecutors.

18 A. Yes. Those were the positions that required it.

19 Q. And now you're telling us that on the 15th of May, you too were

20 required to take an oath of loyalty.

21 A. Yes. It was required of us employees as well.

22 Q. Is it not a fact that as a sign of protest or solidarity with the

23 Muslim judges, you stopped going to work?

24 A. No. We didn't want to sign that statement of loyalty, but we

25 would have faired in the same way had we signed it.

Page 7992

1 Q. In your statement from September 2001 that you gave to the

2 investigators of the OTP, you said that on that occasion there were

3 certain replacements of the president of the court and so on, didn't you?

4 A. Yes. The president of the court, the secretary, the

5 deputy prosecutor, and the president of the magistrate courts were

6 replaced.

7 Q. On that occasion, the public prosecutor, Slobodan Milasinovic, a

8 Serb, was also replaced, wasn't he?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Delic, again you are not allowing that small

11 interval of time. You're just jumping straight. So please. Okay. Thank

12 you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Tell me please, if you know, whether this gentleman,

16 Slobodan Milasinovic also refused to sign this oath of loyalty even though

17 he was a Serb.

18 A. I don't know. I just don't know.

19 Q. But you certainly do know that he was replaced as well.

20 A. Yes. It was read out that he was being replaced.

21 Q. Tell me please, on the 23rd of May there was an explosive device

22 that was thrown at your house; isn't that right?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. You told us that after that you came with your father and brother

25 and that you went to report it to the police while they stayed at home and

Page 7993

1 two policemen came to do the on-site investigation.

2 A. Yes, two inspectors arrived.

3 Q. In your statement, the same statement to the OTP in 2001, on page

4 3, last paragraph and sentence, they showed you some sort of an official

5 report, that is, the security services centre in Banja Luka.

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the witness be shown P206, P206. The Serbian

8 version, please.

9 Yes. I think that's the front -- that's the first page.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The other copy, please, put it on the ELMO. Thank

11 you.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Tell me please, this is a weekly report for the period from the

14 18th to the 25th of May, 1992, a weekly report issued by the centre of the

15 security services of Banja Luka.

16 A. Yes, that is what it says.

17 Q. The date is the 26th of May, 1992, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, on page 2, the one but last paragraph, under the date the

20 "23rd of May, 1992," it says: "In Sanski Most, at the house owned by

21 Bekir Delic, an explosive device was thrown into the open area."

22 A. Yes. That is my house. It was thrown through the bathroom

23 window, destroying the bathroom and the room I sleep in. All the windows

24 were broken.

25 Q. This is the document that was shown to you in 2001 when talking to

Page 7994

1 the investigators of the OTP?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Please look at the last page and the signature. The head of the

4 centre, Stojan Zupljanin.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Delic, after that you didn't stay in your

7 house, and on the 26th of May you went to Mahala.

8 A. Yes, that is right.

9 Q. You told us repeatedly that your house was in a part of town

10 inhabited mostly by Serbs; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes, right.

12 Q. And there were no real problems, shall I put it that way, with the

13 exception of this explosive device that was thrown at the house.

14 A. Yes. On that day, but after that I couldn't live there any more.

15 Q. In answer to a question from the Prosecution today, on page 12,

16 lines 22 and 23 of the LiveNote and after that, you said -- not in that

17 statement, in what -- in your testimony today -- you said that you didn't

18 know that anything was in the offing on the 26th of May in Sanski Most.

19 A. No, I didn't know.

20 Q. And though you didn't know that anything was about to happen, that

21 morning you went to Mahala, to a house that has a basement. Why?

22 A. Let me tell you. Passing through Mahala -- as I was passing

23 through the centre of town, there was an APC standing there and next to it

24 was Dusan Saovic standing. They asked me where I was going. I answered I

25 was going to see my father in the Mahala. Then Dusan said, "Let him

Page 7995

1 pass."

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you explain to us what APC is, please, or

3 stands for.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Would you explain to Their Honours what a personal carrier is.

6 A. It's a military vehicle rather like a tank, which has an

7 anti-aircraft machine-gun attached in front.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So after you went to Mahala, you hid in this basement and you said

11 that you heard shooting, didn't you?

12 A. Yes. That was at my brother's. We went down to the basement.

13 The shooting started about 9.00. And it was full of women, children, and

14 old people.

15 Q. You said you heard shooting, rifle shots, and cannon fire?

16 A. Yes. I heard the shells, cannon fire.

17 Q. Did you have the impression that there was a combat going on?

18 A. No, I didn't have that impression at all.

19 Q. The next day, when you came out of the basement, you said in your

20 statement of 2001 that you came across a Serbian paramilitary unit on --

21 SOS, on page 4, second paragraph.

22 A. Yes. That is right. That was in a part of Mahala, halfway

23 inside.

24 Q. There was even a problem that occurred. One of them wanted to

25 kill you, and others prevented him from doing that. That is what you said

Page 7996

1 in your statement of 2001.

2 A. Yes. He separated us males, and he wanted to kill us.

3 Q. And this other member of the same unit led you to the Montenegro

4 Cafe, owned by Sarcevic.

5 A. Yes. That was his cellar where he held the drinks.

6 Q. You also told us today that when you came out on the 27th of May

7 that Mahala was virtually deserted.

8 A. Yes. We were the last to stay there. There was not a soul in

9 Mahala when we came out.

10 Q. Tell me please, this Montenegro Cafe where they put you up in the

11 cellar owned by Sarcevic, that was also in Mahala.

12 A. No. That was already in town.

13 Q. So the next day the owner of the cafe, Mr. Sarcevic, called up the

14 Crisis Staff, and after that the guards withdrew and you left; isn't that

15 right?

16 A. Yes. He asked. He didn't know what to do with those people. He

17 said it was very damp and cold and we weren't dressed properly and he

18 didn't know what to do with us.

19 Q. Let us go back to something for a moment. Do you remember what

20 happened on the 19th of April in Sanski Most?

21 A. That was when the attack on the municipality took place.

22 Q. When you say "attack," is it not true to say that the SDA leaders

23 and the HDZ leaders and policemen had captured the building two days prior

24 to that?

25 A. They were the legal elected authorities.

Page 7997

1 Q. Tell me, do you know that those policemen who entered the building

2 were armed?

3 A. I don't know those things. I was not familiar, because I didn't

4 move around in the evenings.

5 Q. Yes, I know. But they held the building for two days, two whole

6 days. Did you pass by the building of the municipality during that time,

7 from the 19th to the 20th of April?

8 A. No. I didn't move around. This was in the night of the 19th to

9 the 20th, as far as I know.

10 Q. Is it not true that you drove Mr. Adil Draganovic to that

11 building?

12 A. No, I didn't escort Mr. Draganovic to that building at all. I

13 didn't accompany him.

14 Q. Between the 18th and the 20th of April, or did you go there with

15 him --

16 A. Do you mean his official or private car?

17 Q. Either.

18 A. No. I had no contact with Mr. Draganovic, nor did I drive him in

19 that period.

20 Q. Let us go back to the 28th of May. After you left Mahala, you

21 went to another settlement, Narodni front, didn't you?

22 A. Yes. It is a housing estate.

23 Q. And then after that, on the basis of a radio announcement, you

24 reported together with all the other members of your household.

25 A. Yes. Just my mother and father and me, because we had come there

Page 7998

1 from Mahala.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Delic, have a break and have some water.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And -- because I'm -- I'm getting worried about

5 this. I mean, the positions -- the respective positions that you've

6 taken, you standing there at the back and Mr. Delic having to literally

7 bend backwards to be able to face you -- not that he needs to face you --

8 but if you want to take my advice, have a break of two minutes, bring over

9 your papers if it's not too much, and come forward to this empty --

10 MR. ZECEVIC: That's no problem.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- desk over here --

12 MR. ZECEVIC: It's no problem, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- at least you will be facing together in a manner

14 which is comfortable to both. And I thank you for your cooperation,

15 Mr. Zecevic.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I was just thinking, Your Honour, that it could be

17 helpful if someone who is listening to the English translation could work

18 out some kind of just a little signal to the witness when the translation

19 is finished, at which point he could then begin to answer, because --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Tell me how to do it, Mr. Ackerman, and I will -- I

21 will --

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'll volunteer just by raising this

23 when he can answer if you want me to do it. I mean, I -- it's -- I'm

24 afraid that the translation is not getting done because it's going too

25 fast.

Page 7999

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Not on the 4th of July. It will be too much for

2 you, Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: It might be. But someone could probably do that

4 service, and it would help us all. I'm sure. It's up to you, Your

5 Honour.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think it's really necessary, Your Honour.

8 I mean, I -- why don't we just keep going.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I can -- listen,

10 Mr. Nicholls. I can read into --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I can read into the stress of the interpreters. I

13 mean, I can read into their voice. They are literally battling to keep up

14 with the rhythm.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: One thing that's been done in the past, Your Honour

16 is to have him put his earphones around his neck in English and he can

17 then hear the English. When the English stops --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But that could be disturbing to him, that could be

19 disturbing to him. What's being suggested to me by Madam Registrar is to

20 switch on his monitor to the transcript mode, which he will look at, and

21 he will only start giving his answer when he sees that the translation

22 into English has come to a stop.

23 You see that blinking black cursor. And when you see nothing else

24 behind it, that means you can go ahead. You will see that as I talk now,

25 the moment I stop, that blinking black spot, black cursor, stops, and

Page 8000

1 there is nothing behind it. There are words behind it as soon as I start

2 talking again. So we'll try and do it this way. Look at the black

3 cursor. When there is nothing else behind that black cursor, please start

4 giving your answer.

5 Mr. Zecevic.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Can we continue?

8 A. Yes, of course. Please do.

9 Q. Just after you arrived there, your parents were released together

10 with the other older people, women and children, weren't they?

11 A. Yes, that is right.

12 Q. You were then transferred to the gym, and after that to the sports

13 hall; isn't that right?

14 A. Yes, correct.

15 Q. And in that sports hall, you met up with your brothers, didn't

16 you?

17 A. Yes, that is when I learnt they were alive.

18 Q. You spent about seven days in that sports hall, didn't you?

19 A. Yes, correct.

20 Q. You told us that you were released because you were living in a

21 part of Sanski Most where the Serbs were in the majority and where there

22 was no war zone.

23 A. Yes, correct.

24 Q. Slowly, please.

25 Tell me please, does that mean that there were no problems in that

Page 8001

1 part of Sanski Most of any kind?

2 A. Because only Serbs lived there as a majority.

3 Q. When I say "problems," I mean conflicts.

4 A. There can't be any conflicts if only Serbs were living there.

5 Q. The other members of the Muslim nation living in that part of

6 Sanski Most were also released home, were they not, together with you?

7 A. Yes, correct. There were a few of us.

8 Q. So after that you were free to return home, weren't you?

9 A. No. I didn't feel safe going home. The house was already

10 damaged.

11 Q. When I said that you were free to go, I mean that nobody prevented

12 you from going. If you had wanted to and if you had felt safe in your

13 house, you could have, couldn't you?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, Mr. Delic. Mr. Zecevic, I don't have the

15 page, line number, et cetera, but earlier on he was asked a question and

16 he said, That was a message. I took it as a message. The moment they

17 threw a bomb or blew up part of my house, it meant don't come here any

18 more. So I think we move to the next question.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could just say, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That wasn't enough, Mr. Nicholls, on my part?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: No. Just earlier when the witness was answering a

23 question, counsel went like that a moment ago, because -- and I'd prefer

24 that he not make stopping gestures to the witness while he's answering the

25 questions.

Page 8002


2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I made this gesture just to slow him

3 down. And after that I said, "Please slow down." That is --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Zecevic.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. No problem.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I tried to be helpful to the interpreters.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, Mr. Delic, where did you go after this?

9 A. I went to my neighbour's in another district.

10 Q. You yourself chose to go to your neighbour's in another district,

11 didn't you?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Delic, I notice that you have practically lost

14 your voice. If you want to stop and continue tomorrow, we'll stop now and

15 we'll continue tomorrow. What do you prefer?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can continue. I've had a cold for

17 a couple of days, the change of climate I think here. I don't know. It's

18 up to you. I shall try to go on.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... it doesn't make

20 a difference. We want to make sure that you don't undergo any undue

21 stress while you are giving evidence. If you are not feeling well -- if

22 you have lost your voice, just tell us and we'll stop, and we'll continue

23 tomorrow. I mean, no one is putting any -- you're not going to finish

24 today in any case. I mean, it's ...

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with you.

Page 8003

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll continue tomorrow. Yes. Okay.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.


4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Make sure, Mr. Nicholls, that he's attended to,

7 because we have a whole sitting tomorrow.

8 May I just ask. How long did you ...?

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I anticipate 45 minutes to 1 hour.

10 Not more than that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Ackerman?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think my cross is somewhere between

13 15 and 30 minutes. It's a little difficult to tell. Somewhere in that

14 neighbourhood.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we owe it to the witness. I can see that he

16 is suffering. I mean, at first I thought it was just a loss of voice.

17 But if he's telling me that he's got a cold and he's trying to recover

18 from the cold, I mean, it's no use keeping him here and putting him

19 under -- under more undue pressure.

20 The important thing is, Mr. Nicholls, not you directly but through

21 the relative section to make sure that he is given all due attention, to

22 make sure that tomorrow he is -- he is fit to continue his evidence.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: I will talk to the person who does that for our

24 team, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 8004

1 MR. NICHOLLS: I've just got to make some calls.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm wondering, Your Honour, if you might ask the

4 guards to contact the appropriate people to see if a transport can be

5 arranged so that the accused don't have to sit down in those little holes

6 in the basement until 8.00 today.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. -- Madam Registrar, could you deal with

8 that straight away, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. As well I'm going to inform the victims and

10 witnesses section to take good care of the witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you.

12 Sorry about this, Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Ackerman, but I don't think

13 I should continue with the -- we should continue with the -- with the

14 cross-examination in these conditions.

15 I thank you. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15.

16 In the meantime, try to rest, sir, as much as you can. Rest your

17 voice in particular so that tomorrow you will be in a position to continue

18 and finish your testimony here.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope everything will be fine

20 tomorrow.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. He may be escorted out of the

22 courtroom.

23 In the meantime, General Talic and Mr. Brdjanin, we are going to

24 take -- to do all that is within our power to do -- to ensure that you are

25 not kept here till half past 7.00 or even after.

Page 8005












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8006

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't promise you miracles, because I was not

3 anticipating to finish at 6.00, but we will do our best.

4 Thank you. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15. I know that the one

5 who is mostly concerned is you, Madam Richterova. But -- I had you in

6 mind, but I think first things come first. Thank you. Good evening.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

8 at 6.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

9 the 5th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.