Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9413

1 Tuesday, 3 September 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

7 number, IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir

8 Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

10 me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

12 Honours. I can hear you and understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

14 General Talic, can you hear me in a language that you can

15 understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 I can hear you and understand you in a language that I understand.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

19 Appearances for Prosecution.

20 MS. KORNER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,

21 assisted again today by Denise Gustin to much surprise has come back from

22 holiday.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back, and good afternoon to you.

24 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, for Mr. Brdjanin, I'm John Ackerman

Page 9414

1 along with Marela Jevtovic. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Good afternoon to you.

3 Appearances for General Talic.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and

5 Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And good afternoon to you too.

7 So -- yes, Madam Fauveau.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Ms. Korner

9 used yesterday P882, and she said that this document was found in the 1st

10 Corps documents. But according to the list that was supplied by the OTP,

11 this is a document that would have been given to the Prosecutor's office

12 in June 2000 and which supposedly came from the Croatian files. This is a

13 document that would have been written by the 13th Partisan Brigade because

14 this is a document which comes from Zagreb. We object to it because we

15 don't know how this document arrived in Zagreb and what was the chain of

16 custody of the document.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's right. I've just checked. I

18 tend to rather assume without checking that all military documents come

19 from the 1st Krajina Corps collection, in the sense of being seized from

20 Banja Luka. It's right. It was taken from the Croatian state archives;

21 the reason being, and Mr. Brown is going to be a witness -- is that when

22 the Croatians retook part of them, they also seized part of the military

23 documents. But Your Honour, we can also hear an explanation about that.


25 MS. KORNER: But Madam Fauveau is absolutely right.

Page 9415


2 MS. KORNER: While I'm on my feet, can I correct something that I

3 said yesterday?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner, please.

5 MS. KORNER: In relation -- oh, yes, that's right. The OHR

6 report. I told Your Honours that a request to the office of the high

7 representative for an update on the security areas had only resulted in us

8 being sent the 2000 report again. In fact, I made an error. It was put

9 into my room, and I assumed that's what had been sent. In fact, it was

10 the I think UNHCR report which somebody had merely put into my room but it

11 had nothing to do with it. So I made an error. And we're still chasing

12 up the situation with the office of the high representative.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Apropos the information that I have, because

14 I chased the matter up as well -- the information that I have is that you

15 should receive a communication updating the risk assessment for 2002. And

16 it should be in your office - when I say "in your office," the OTP's

17 office - by the end of business today.

18 MS. KORNER: Oh, well, clearly Your Honours have had a splendid

19 effect on that office.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It should. That's what I was promised. Now, that

21 stands to be seen, obviously. I mean, I've had many promises in my life.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes. I believe -- I understand Mr. Ackerman had

23 something to raise. But purely while we're on administrative matters, I

24 don't know whether Your Honours had a chance to consider the transcript

25 of --

Page 9416

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I was going to raise that issue

2 myself after posing a question to Mr. Ackerman and Mr. Zecevic. And my

3 question to you is this: Having gone through the transcript which is a

4 transcript of -- a partial transcript of the tape, and having heard what

5 the witness said yesterday, that the commentator is identifiable even with

6 regard to his name at the end of the video recording, something that we

7 were not in a position to confirm or deny because we haven't seen the

8 video recording, are you in a position to confirm, update, or change the

9 position that you made yesterday about the admissibility of the --

10 MR. ZECEVIC: If it pleases the Court, Your Honours. I have

11 checked the tape yesterday in the evening. There are no acknowledgments

12 on the tape either at the very beginning or at the end of the -- of this

13 particular portion of the tape which our learned colleague intends to

14 use. So there is no way we can identify either the commentator or

15 whoever -- the producer of the program or whomever.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you agree that at least since the witness said

17 that at some point in time there is also the picture of this commentator

18 which he could identify to us, and since he also said that at the end he

19 is identified, could we at least show that part, whichever part it is - I

20 wouldn't know - to the witness so that he can confirm this? Would you

21 agree to this?


23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. But I watched the tape very

24 closely, but --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. I'm not in any way contradicting what you're

Page 9417

1 stating.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I haven't seen the commentator. That is what

3 I --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I just want to confront the witness now

5 without telling him --

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course we don't have a problem with that, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you agree to that, Ms. Korner?

9 MS. KORNER: Certainly. I'm just wondering what Your Honour

10 means. What, the witness should sit in court watching it and identify the

11 man to us?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We will ask him the question again, and perhaps

13 someone would prepare the tape according to what the witness will tell

14 us. For example, because the witness yesterday said very clearly at some

15 point in time towards the end there is the -- this commentator is shown in

16 person and then there is -- there is his name later on. So we will --

17 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I can do this. What I would

18 suggest as a simple way of doing it, providing nobody objects, is that

19 when the witness finishes today he can be taken to a room where there is a

20 video and simply asked to watch it and point out where he says that is,

21 rather than us all sitting around.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Would you agree with that?

23 MS. KORNER: I can get an investigator to deal with that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you agree with that, Mr. Ackerman and

25 Mr. Zecevic?

Page 9418

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it's more fun to confront him with it in

2 court, and that's what Ms. Korner is trying to avoid, of course. But I

3 think it's not there, so --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It may been time consuming in court. Because --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it would be time consuming.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: If no one knows exactly except the witness where the

7 relevant part of the video recording is, it will definitely be time

8 consuming.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: We're not objecting to this --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: No objection.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: -- solution from Ms. Korner.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I leave it in your hands. You will

13 take care of that, Ms. Korner, and then we'll deal with it tomorrow.

14 Yes.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes. I mean the only thing that I -- I don't know.

16 It's quite difficult to gauge how long we'll be on the rest of the

17 documents with him. But it might be that I've reached the point where I

18 want to play the video today. So in any event, in which case he can do it

19 in court.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I'll start -- I'll start with this point again

21 today. Maybe he can be more categoric today. And if that's the case, we

22 will do what you're saying.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it defeats the whole purpose of the objection

24 if she's just going to play the tape in court and at the end he can't

25 identify the commentator.

Page 9419

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course not. That's not what I meant. What I

2 meant was putting questions to the witness which would help us identify

3 the part in the -- if there is a part in the video recording which we

4 could show him direct. If it's at the end, just the end of the video

5 recording. And then he should be in the position to tell us, "This is the

6 person I'm referring to."

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I take it, Your Honours, if you -- if you sustain

8 the objection, that the -- the parts that the commentator says will be

9 removed from the transcript before it becomes an exhibit and the -- those

10 parts will also be extracted from the tape before it becomes an exhibit.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But as I understand it, from what I could understand

12 yesterday, there are two possible relevant parts which one could use to

13 identify who this commentator is. One is, according to the witness, at

14 the end of the video recording there is a list of those who collaborated

15 in its production. That's how I understood it. I may have misunderstood

16 everything, which would not be the first case.

17 The second part is that he said that somewhere -- and I also

18 understood towards the end -- there is a -- a part in which the

19 commentator himself is shown, and he also described him as a person who

20 has gone bald. And so I would like to know where that part -- if it's

21 somewhere in the middle of the video recording, then yes, we will do it as

22 Ms. Korner suggested. He will see it sometime after the sitting today or

23 during a break, have that slot identified, and then we'll see only that

24 slot here together with the end piece of the recording where the names of

25 the collaborators or -- are. And if he can identify it -- if he can

Page 9420

1 identify the broadcast -- the commentator by just looking at this video

2 recording himself without us having the need to go through all this

3 procedure and then tomorrow or later on today he comes forward and says,

4 "The commentator was Mr. Zecevic's brother," then we can carry on from

5 there and we will hand down the decision.

6 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, we have in fact -- I'm sorry,

7 Mr. Ackerman. We haven't in fact argued it. That was the objection that

8 was raised. Then Mr. Filipovic said that he thought the man was on the

9 tape anyhow. But I would wish to submit, Your Honours, it doesn't make a

10 hate worth's of difference whether or not the --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we'll tell you that in our decision

12 basically.

13 MS. KORNER: No, but we haven't actually -- Your Honours haven't

14 heard any legal argument on it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But basically we will understand immediately, as

16 I'm sure Mr. Ackerman has understood already, because that was made

17 abundantly clear yesterday, that if this commentator's identity is

18 established, then practically 94, 95 per cent of the argument he put

19 forward yesterday falls.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think the whole argument falls.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I am saying 94, 95 not to be 100 per cent categoric.

22 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, Your Honour, we'll proceed on that

23 basis.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Any -- anything else? Yes,

25 Mr. Ackerman.

Page 9421

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, in preparation for the

2 cross-examination of this witness, I have looked at just very briefly a

3 portion of a book by a gentleman named Safer Halilovic where he talked

4 about the Patriotic League which this witness has testified about.


6 MR. ACKERMAN: And having discovered that, I'm aware that

7 Mr. Halilovic is a -- an accused in this Tribunal, General Halilovic, and

8 that he has, I understand, given very lengthy statements to the

9 Prosecutor. And judging on the content of his book, I would expect that

10 significant portions of those statements are relevant to issues that are

11 being raised in this case and perhaps exculpatory to the defendants

12 regarding some of the issues in this case, certainly some of the

13 statements in his book are. And I understand that those statements might

14 be quite sensitive in some respects. So what I would request is that you

15 order the Prosecutor to give the statements to Your Honours, have you look

16 at this in camera, and determine whether there are any parts of them that

17 you believe are Rule 68 exculpatory kinds of material that ought to be

18 turned over to the Defence.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But I understand the substance of your argument very

20 well. Where I entertain great doubts is how proper -- fit and proper it

21 is for this Trial Chamber to indicate to the Prosecution what falls under

22 Rule 68 and what doesn't when it is absolutely the responsibility of the

23 Prosecution to decide what falls within their obligation to disclose by

24 way of exculpatory material under that rule. I mean, as what you're

25 saying basically means that if in going through these documents in camera,

Page 9422

1 the three of us in our ignorance fail to notice something which is highly

2 exculpatory or partly exculpatory in regard to your clients, we fail to

3 notice it and we fail to indicate it to the Prosecution, then you have no

4 redress against the Prosecution because the Prosecution would have

5 followed our direction or directive. I think it's -- you've sent a

6 message that you think that in these statements there may be exculpatory

7 material, and then it is the duty of the Prosecution once it has this

8 information to go through that material themselves, make an assessment.

9 If they think that there is material --

10 THE GUARD: Excuse me, Your Honour. We have an emergency in the

11 building. We are going to take the detainees out. Please stay seated.

12 You'll get more information later. We have an emergency in the building.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What happened?

14 MS. KORNER: This -- we've had this before, Your Honour. This is

15 a fire -- my feeling is once a year they do this. They have a fire drill

16 and they clear the building regardless of what is happening.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: When I'm saying something so important.

18 [The accused withdrew]

19 MS. KORNER: Exactly. Your Honour, this is I'm afraid to say this

20 is to bring Your Honours down to a level of an ordinary mortal.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. It's -- never for a moment do I

22 think that I belong to the other category.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have a horrible feeling this is going

24 to be all of us -- I remember this from last year around this time. It

25 will be all of us out of the building for the rest of the day.

Page 9423

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But when -- when there are complaints that we keep

2 witnesses here unduly.

3 MS. KORNER: I know.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That we bring them, and that's costing money.

5 And -- Chuqing was not informed about this.

6 MS. KORNER: Well, it may be a genuine emergency. But it seems

7 to me --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But we would hear it. No, I'm not hearing any

9 sirens or alarm bells. Nothing.

10 MS. KORNER: We've been here before.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But I was here in November when they asked me

12 to take part in the drill. And I had an appointment that day. But it was

13 at 2.30. Yes. Because I remembered I had an appointment at 2.30 and --

14 MS. KORNER: I think perhaps Your Honour that Ms. Chuqing is the

15 person to ask. Is this a drill or is it genuine.

16 THE REGISTRAR: I really know nothing about it.

17 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I consider -- I mean, you know,

18 it's all very well. I understand fire regulations. But I hope there will

19 be no complaints.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, of course not. I mean, we will.

21 [The accused entered court]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

23 Yes. So basically -- okay. I'll just wait. So basically what I

24 think is that this is something that the Prosecution ought to take in

25 hand. And I think our responsibility stops there at this point in time.

Page 9424

1 MS. KORNER: Can I reply.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Just for the record, we are joining along with

3 the -- with the -- with the -- asking for our learned colleague

4 Mr. Ackerman and we believe that it is -- it is for the Prosecutor to give

5 us -- to disclose to us the statements of -- or the relevant part of the

6 statements of Sefer Halilovic.

7 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, can I take this in stages.

8 First of all, sometime ago, considerable time ago, the Defence for General

9 Talic wrote to us in respect of the Halilovic and other cases, asking for

10 exculpatory material that -- with a specific list. And we did a check,

11 and I think we gave them some documents. We have never so far been asked

12 to consider what he said in interview.

13 Now, Your Honour, both Defence counsel have known for some time

14 that Mr. Filipovic was going to be a witness and that the Patriotic League

15 was going to be part of it. So can I say this: It's a little late in the

16 day in one respect because this is going to cause a lot more difficulty

17 than I think Mr. Ackerman or Your Honours may perceive.

18 First, I can of course make inquiries about the content of the

19 interview that was held with other members of the Office of the

20 Prosecutor. However, that's not the end of the matter. That, of course,

21 is a confidential matter to that case. And those who represent

22 Mr. Halilovic may have an interest as to whether or not there should be

23 disclosure beyond that. And so therefore we will have to contact, because

24 the contents of that interview of course are confidential. It's not the

25 same as documents which are being disclosed.

Page 9425

1 Now, I don't know -- I know that one of the counsel involved in

2 the case was here today, and it may be because of that, that Mr. Ackerman

3 is raising it. But we'll have to make contact with them. And so it's not

4 something that can be done overnight.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The point I would like to make, Ms. Korner, is

6 this: That the argument that the Defence knew that Mr. Filipovic was

7 going to give evidence, including evidence on this Patriotic League is an

8 argument which applies to you as well in the sense that you also knew that

9 you were going to produce Mr. Filipovic as a witness of the Prosecution

10 and inter alia he would be giving evidence on the Patriotic League. So

11 basically if the statements of Mr. Halilovic contained information which

12 was exculpatory pertaining to the Patriotic League or related -- related

13 matters, I don't think it -- the fact --

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, with the greatest respect, how on earth

15 are we supposed to know that there's the slightest hint that Mr. Halilovic

16 has got anything to do -- General Halilovic, whatever he is called, has

17 got anything to do unless we're asked. I mean, we can search --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being suggested to you now.

19 MS. KORNER: I know that. What I'm saying is it could have

20 been -- should have been suggest sometime ago.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily. I mean, it depends when someone

22 gets information. I mean, it's --

23 MS. KORNER: All right. Well --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: As you say, it seems -- it seems --

25 MS. KORNER: Regardless --

Page 9426

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems that the information arrived today or --

2 MS. KORNER: No, I don't know that it did I'm guessing, because I

3 saw Mr. --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But I think you're guessing right.

5 MS. KORNER: I know. All right.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you show me the book, it means that it could

7 have arrived earlier, Mr. Ackerman.

8 MS. KORNER: In any event, Your Honour, all I'm saying is this is

9 not a simple matter.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I know it's not a simple matter.

11 MS. KORNER: And it's most unlikely that if there is such

12 material -- and I'm sorry, I don't understand what is it that they

13 consider to be Rule 68 that Mr. Halilovic was a member of the Patriotic

14 League. I think we're going to need a little more guidance on this.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I suppose -- let Mr. Ackerman speak -- sorry,

16 Mr. Ackerman. Madam Fauveau was standing before you.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Ms. Korner said we

18 asked a year ago all of the exculpatory material which could be contained

19 in the two cases related to Muslim generals. We have said that we are

20 particularly interested in all the documents that prove the existence of

21 Muslim units. And the Defence of General Talic couldn't have known that

22 General Halilovic had given a statement. Now, if we had asked exculpatory

23 elements in relation to this case that the statement of General Halilovic

24 would enter into this category if it contained certain details relating

25 to Muslim units.

Page 9427

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, by making this request, I'm not asking

3 that the cross-examination of this witness be delayed while Ms. Korner is

4 going through this process. The information, if it is what I believe it

5 might be, can be useful on other parts of the case, even in the Defence

6 part of the case. So I'm not requesting any kind of a delay. So time is

7 not an issue here. I can tell you that the part that I read was

8 translated this morning, and I read it at noon. And I raised it at, I

9 think, the first opportunity I had.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Okay.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: So I haven't waited to ambush Ms. Korner or any

12 such thing. But it seems to me that there is a rule that says it's the

13 obligation of the Prosecutor to provide to the Defence evidence in the

14 possession of the Prosecutor that's exculpatory to the accused, statements

15 from accused are evidence. And the business that they have to get

16 permission of his lawyers to disclose them to us is ridiculous.

17 Statements of Mr. Delalic and Mr. Mucic, were admitted in evidence in the

18 trial against them without the permission of their lawyers. They were

19 made public without the permission of their lawyers. There's nothing --

20 there's no ownership interest in the lawyers. These are statements --

21 voluntary statements given to the Prosecutor. They're evidence. And they

22 belong to the Prosecutor. And she can give them to us if they are

23 relevant.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

25 MS. KORNER: I don't think -- of course the statements made by

Page 9428

1 Mr. Delalic and the rest were made -- given in evidence. They were

2 statements within the trial, the process that involved them. What we're

3 talking about is a totally separate process involving separate accused.

4 May I say, Your Honour, a completely different time scale as well. The

5 charges relate to 1995, I think.

6 But Your Honour, that's a totally different matter from disclosing

7 material relevant to a trial which has not begun and which is at the

8 moment undergoing the pre-trial process in a different trial and as a

9 result making public those matters. But Your Honour, at the moment we're

10 all arguing slightly in a vacuum. I will have inquiries made as to

11 whether within the interviews conducted with Halilovic or, I suppose,

12 properly any of the other defendants, accused in the Muslim case, there is

13 any -- at the moment all I'm being asked to do, so it's quite clear as I

14 understand it, is look to see what, if anything, they said about the

15 Patriotic League. Well, then, I'm sorry, I hear Mr. Ackerman. I need

16 guidance. It's no good just a general what is Rule 68. What do the

17 Defence consider for these purposes on the interview of Rule 68? We've

18 asked this question before -- is Rule 68?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: The guidance is the same guidance that you've been

20 operating under as you determined everything else regarding Rule 68.

21 That's your job. That's the Prosecutor's job, Your Honour. I shouldn't

22 be talking to Ms. Korner. That's the Prosecutor's job to determine what

23 is Rule 68. Anything that contradicts obviously the Prosecutor's theory

24 of this case, anything that contradicts the testimony of witnesses that

25 are being put on by the Prosecutor -- I shouldn't have to stand here and

Page 9429

1 give Ms. Korner a lecture about what Rule 68 is and what exculpatory

2 evidence is. Everybody in the world that tries cases, criminal cases,

3 knows what exculpatory evidence is and what she'd like me to do is reveal

4 my defence so that she can then decide what there's material that's

5 relevant to what my defence is but I'm not going to do that. But I'm

6 going to hold her to that standard.

7 And what I'm afraid will happen, Your Honour, and what Rule 68 is

8 designed to avoid is there will come a time when the statements of General

9 Halilovic will probably be evidence in his case or some other case become

10 part of the trial record. And if we read those statements three or four

11 years from now, when that happens, and find that they are filled with

12 exculpatory material that should have been disclosed in this case, then we

13 can seriously consider trying this case all over again, and that's what

14 Rule 68 is designed to avoid. So that's what Ms. Korner's job is. Her

15 job is to look at those statements. And if it contradicts her case, give

16 it to us.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, I think the responsibility of this Chamber

18 for the time being rests with making sure that the point raised by the two

19 Defence teams, namely that they believe that there are statements by

20 General Halilovic which contain exculpatory material which should be

21 disclosed, is a point taken by the Prosecution which will follow up on

22 that point and come back to either the two Defence teams directly or the

23 Trial Chamber if there are difficulties that need to be smoothened or

24 straightened out before a final decision is taken. But certainly it's not

25 the case of the Trial Chamber receiving these document, going through

Page 9430

1 them, and deciding for the Prosecution that it is exculpatory material or

2 that it isn't exculpatory material at this very early stage, not even

3 later, I suppose, because that's your discretion.

4 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, can I just make one other point. In

5 the interests of not taking up time, it was perfectly open for

6 Mr. Ackerman or Mr. Zecevic to raise this matter. I saw Mr. Ackerman

7 earlier this morning or whatever outside court and ask us the question,

8 rather than raising it with Your Honour, which tends to suggest there's

9 going to be refusal. In my view, it's only necessary to bring these

10 matters up before Your Honour. It's now of course in the public domain --

11 if, for example, we had refused or refused to make any inquiries, so

12 Your Honour, I merely mention that at this stage. Mr. Ackerman in the 15

13 minutes before Your Honours came in when I was sitting here discussing

14 other matters could have raised those matters with me. And I would urge

15 that in the interest not of wasting time in court, not having this sort of

16 discussion in open court, which is unnecessary, Defence counsel raise

17 these matters with me.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, matters of this nature always need to

20 be made of record because they may be important to future litigants

21 regarding this case, and therefore that's why I do it that way. My

22 private conversations with Ms. Korner is not part of the record and can't

23 be read by some appellant lawyer and some other lawyer down the road.

24 That's why they have to be part of the record, I think.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Can we bring in the witness now.

Page 9431

1 And by the way since definitely just for the record, the Rule 92 bis

2 decision should be available by the -- by now. We handed it down today.

3 That regards Kljuc municipality. The other one will follow as soon as I

4 get this updated report on the risk assessment.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: The same procedure as yesterday. Could you please

9 repeat your solemn declaration to tell us the truth.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

15 Please --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- our apologies for starting late. We started on

18 time, but we had some procedural preliminaries to thrash before we could

19 proceed with your testimony.

20 Ms. Korner will take over from where she left yesterday.

21 MS. KORNER: I thought Your Honour wanted to ask about the video.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes, yes.

23 Now, yesterday you will recall, Mr. Filipovic, when you started

24 giving evidence I asked you a couple of questions with regard to the video

25 recording that you brought with you and which you handed to the

Page 9432

1 Prosecution and which we haven't seen as yet. And I asked you

2 specifically whether you knew who the commentator was, and you told us

3 basically two things: Number one is that from the video recording itself,

4 we -- you are in a position to identify the commentator because he's shown

5 somewhere in the course of this video recording, and you also said that he

6 is a gentleman with a bald head. And then you also said that at the end

7 of the video recording there is his name. You're not -- you were not in a

8 position to tell us his name just like that because you couldn't remember

9 it, but you said that his name appears at the end of the video recording

10 of this documentary. Do you confirm this?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, because I cannot know his

12 name. While he was making this programme, I was in the Manjaca

13 concentration camp. And I have seen the video recording, and I can show

14 you when he appears who he is. I can show him to you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Do you know whether he appears in the

16 beginning, in the middle, or towards the end of the video recording, do

17 you know?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think towards the end.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps during the break, Ms. Korner, we can take

20 up what we discussed earlier. And instead of a 15-minute we can have a

21 20-minute break.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to say yesterday you asked

25 me about the name of the man who held the Galleria cafe. And I remembered

Page 9433

1 last night. His name was Nikola Todorovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the Serb.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... now receives

5 the rent, and the place is in the hands of a Muslim, of a Bosniak. No?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So basically would you agree,

8 Ms. Korner, to detail someone from your office to stay with the witness

9 during the break and --

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, no, what will have to happen is

11 he'll have to be taken to an area where there's a video rather than

12 being --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know where.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, we can organise that and I can arrange

15 for an investigator and an interpreter so that can point it out and show

16 him the video.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And then we can just have that clip

18 shown here, and we can take it up from there and see to the rest. All

19 right?

20 MS. KORNER: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good. Thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour just give me one moment while I

23 just deal with that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 9434

1 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

2 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic. I'd like you to have back again

3 the document we were looking at last thing yesterday, which is document

4 P850.

5 And if you could find -- on the translation it's page 13, but it's

6 a part of the document that is headed "Assessment of the general and

7 military and political situation in the municipality." I think you'll

8 find it, at least if I'm right, on page -- it's got some numbers you'll

9 see on the handwritten, 00574398. Is that headed "Assessment of the

10 general military and political situation in the municipality"?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. All right. I just want to pick out some parts

13 of this. If you come to the paragraph that begins "There are not many

14 Croats in the municipality, but they are definitely well connected and

15 would join the Muslim units." Did any Croats join units set up by the

16 Muslim TO?

17 A. As far as I know, they did not. But there were Croats who were in

18 the regular police force and who refused to show loyalty to the SAO

19 Bosnian Krajina and refused to sign to become their police officers. And

20 I believe that had there been more intensive conflicts, they would

21 certainly have joined our men.

22 Q. It goes on to say this: "The Muslims of the Kljuc municipality

23 are organised. The leadership of the MBO and SDA is also the military

24 leadership." Was that correct?

25 A. Excuse me. Well, let me see. I think it is, because the people

Page 9435

1 who headed the political parties were at the same time in the defence

2 staff, defence headquarters, so that is true.

3 Q. And then this: "They receive orders directly from Sarajevo."

4 Again, was that a correct assessment?

5 A. Well, I don't know from where we would get our orders if not from

6 Sarajevo. Sarajevo is the capital of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is where

7 the government is. We couldn't get orders from Belgrade or from Amsterdam

8 or London but only from Sarajevo.

9 Q. All right. So the simple answer is yes.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then the next sentence -- or the next part of the sentence:

12 "They definitely have connections in Sanski Most and Prijedor." Did you

13 have any meetings with the Muslims in Prijedor and/or Sanski Most?

14 A. Well, you mean me personally or ...?

15 Q. Well, first of all, you personally, yes.

16 A. I did go to a meeting in Prijedor and also to Sanski Most. But

17 these were more meetings of an informative nature, for us to see and

18 familiarise ourselves with the situation over there. As far as I can

19 recollect, I only went to one meeting in Prijedor, and I talked to

20 Mr. Mirza Mujacic, who in those days was a member or actually a deputy

21 in the state parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And we went there to

22 appeal to him that as a deputy in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina he

23 should put on the agenda the situation in our region.

24 Q. Apart from that meeting, did others from your organisation, the

25 MBO, attend other meetings in Prijedor or Sanski Most?

Page 9436

1 A. Well, all of us in the region are more or less friends. And some

2 real meetings for consultations were not held, but people would call us

3 from Sanski Most. This is 30 kilometres from Kljuc. "Come to see what

4 things were like." We went over there, had a cup of coffee, and that's

5 it. I think my late brother and Asim Egrlic went to Mirzet, Karabeg, and

6 other people in Sanski Most for meetings of some sort, for discussions.

7 Q. All right. There's some suggestion here of, as it were, a sort of

8 plan, a get-together. Was there any agreement between the Muslims in

9 Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Kljuc that there should be some kind of attack

10 planned on the Serbs in those areas?

11 A. That is not true. Our plans were exclusively defence plans.

12 Q. Then the report goes on: "They are most likely aware of their

13 handicap in certain areas where the settlements are surrounded by or in

14 the immediate vicinity of the Serbian population (the town of Kljuc,

15 Velecevo, Dubocani, Crnjani, Zgon, Humici, Gornji Budelj, et cetera) they

16 do not have clear natural protection of the rear, such as Sisa, Manjaca,

17 and Grmec. It would be safe to assume that they could evacuate a part of

18 their population by relying on Sanski Most. Their initial action would be

19 a firm hold on Velagici and Krasulje, with bigger activities in Sanica and

20 Krasulje-Kamicak. They will not refrain from advancing on Peci, Prhovo,

21 Kopjenica, and Humici."

22 Was that an accurate assessment of, for example, that you had no

23 natural protection in the rear?

24 A. That is a correct assessment. And our greatest handicap was that

25 we didn't have any protection in the rear, as opposed to the Serbs who had

Page 9437

1 the Yugoslav People's Army behind them plus the Bosnian mountains and the

2 big cities. We simply had the people, who were left to their own devices

3 to flee, to see where they would go, and only Mount Osljak was the only

4 mountain where the people could hide in.

5 Q. All right. And then finally on that paragraph, before we get to

6 item 2: "It is realistic to say that the Muslim and Croatian forces

7 cannot even have an initial advantage." Would you agree with that?

8 A. I wouldn't agree with that, because we had -- because we had no

9 intention of having an advantage.

10 Q. Yes. Sorry. But presupposing that the author of this report is

11 correct and you had had an intention of causing an uprising of some kind,

12 would you agree that, as the author says, you couldn't have even had an

13 initial advantage?

14 A. I would agree with the author of this text if everything he wrote

15 yesterday was right, that we had battalions, companies, weapons, the kind

16 of weapons they had. Then I would agree with his assessment, because in

17 that part of the area, who starts first has the advantage. Using the

18 language of sports, who scores the first goal, he is in the lead.

19 Q. Well, this author doesn't think even if you started first, you

20 could have even an initial advantage, but goes on to say this: "It is not

21 unlikely that they might succeed in causing initial confusion with their

22 actions."

23 In any event, if we leave that part and we go to the second part

24 of this assessment: "In realistically assessing the situation, we have to

25 count on the sense, experience, and the organisation of our Serbian

Page 9438

1 people. The Serbian people believe in the SDS and we believe that the

2 beginning of combat would bring about complete unity of all Serbs.

3 "The main task of all the SDS staffs would be the regularly and

4 intensely monitor the situation in this and the following period in time

5 and to take measures to neutralise surprises and maintain organised work

6 and activities in the entire region.

7 "Under no circumstances are we to lose our grip on power, which

8 in short means the following: We hold the leadership of the forces and

9 control the activities of the public administration organs. We are to

10 maintain a base and a firm foundation in the police organs, hold the

11 management of companies, control traffic," et cetera, et cetera.

12 From your knowledge of Kljuc and the area, was that an accurate

13 assessment of the SDS, the Serb's position?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then there's the question raised of an attack on the SAO

16 Krajina and what should happen.

17 Finally, item 3 "Tasks." "The Kljuc local board and staff."

18 The primary and immediate tasks are as follows: "Secure a

19 timely mobilisation of all our forces, keep and maintain our rule while

20 maintaining the necessary level of management and command; secure and

21 maintain the mobilisation of the entire police force, of Serbian

22 nationality, naturally; hold and secure the municipality assembly

23 buildings, the PTT building, the police buildings, the medical centre," et

24 cetera, "the forest products company, the Sana clothing factory, communal

25 services," and so on and so forth.

Page 9439

1 First of all, it states in the translation we've got "Sana

2 clothing factory." Was there a Sana factory in Kljuc?

3 A. That is not that company. That company is in Bosanski Novi, the

4 textile factory. And in Kljuc there is a construction company called

5 Sana. And there was one plant in Ribnik, a textile plant, a small plant

6 in Ribnicanka, but it wasn't called Sana.

7 Q. Can I ask, in the original, does it actually state "clothing

8 factory"?

9 A. Here it says "GP Sana", which means construction company Sana.

10 That is the abbreviation for a construction company, GP.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think we ought to just mark that

12 that's an erroneous translation.

13 Q. Now, aside from that point, Mr. Filipovic, this is what they said

14 had to happen. Was this in fact what happened in Kljuc? Was there

15 mobilisation and mobilisation of the entire police force?

16 A. Yes. All companies, the executives -- the executive positions

17 were held by Serbs. So all the things that you have listed so far are

18 correct.

19 Q. And then if we go over the page, there are a number of points that

20 are raised. But we see the words "Cover the entire town with police

21 forces using Serbian buildings, apartments, and houses, with the initial

22 focus on the already determined tasks of peacetime police."

23 Before your arrest, Mr. Filipovic, on the 29th of May, was the

24 town covered with police forces?

25 A. A correction. I was arrested on the 28th.

Page 9440

1 Q. I'm sorry, the 28th.

2 A. On the 28th of May. And before that, apart from the regular

3 police force, Kljuc was flooded with reservists, reserve policemen. And

4 to a considerable extent, as I said yesterday in my testimony, we call

5 them Knindzas, these were men with red berets. We gave them this

6 nickname, ninja. We called them Knindzas because of Knin. They were

7 attached to them. They were not local inhabitants of Kljuc. And I think

8 there was a platoon of them, about 30 men strong. So the regular police

9 force, the reserve police force, plus these 30 Red Berets.

10 Q. Now, did you yourself hear these men speak, these Red Berets, any

11 of them?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Were you able to tell where they came from?

14 A. I couldn't tell because I didn't have any documents. But judging

15 by their accent, they spoke the Ekavica. But I can't assert that either,

16 because in those days when the SDS took over power, all Serbs more or less

17 switched to the Ekavica, because whoever did not speak Ekavica and who

18 didn't write in Cyrillic was considered to be a poor Serb. In the last 50

19 years, 99 per cent of Serbs wrote the Latin script. And suddenly in the

20 1990's, everyone started writing in Cyrillic.

21 Q. And then under that we see "Maintain roads in Kljuc and the exit

22 from Kljuc, especially paying attention to exits towards Sisa." Anyhow, I

23 asked you yesterday about barricades, and you said they weren't erected

24 until the end of May. Were there checkpoints though, before the end of

25 May set up?

Page 9441

1 A. There were checkpoints. As far as I can remember, there was at

2 the entrance to Kljuc on the bridge, then at the exit to Kljuc, at the

3 turning for Sanski Most, at the turning for Sanica, at the entrance to

4 Sanica, and down there close to the stadium. That is as much as I can

5 remember, because movement was restricted so that we avoided moving

6 around. But those I have just listed were checkpoints for sure.

7 Q. And when did they start to be set up roughly?

8 A. Sorry?

9 Q. Roughly at what period of time were these checkpoints established?

10 A. Well, in the course of the month of May. At the time -- I think

11 even before the takeover of the police administration on the 7th of May,

12 but certainly from 7th of May onwards. But I think it happened even

13 before, but I'm certain about it happening from 7th of May onwards.

14 Q. Was there ever an occasion when you ignored the checkpoints?

15 A. Yes, once.

16 Q. And what happened on that occasion?

17 A. I was going with my late brother for Dzenaza to Sanica. And we

18 were left before we left Kljuc, we were checked four times and as we were

19 going back, we were supposed to go through the same procedure, get a

20 detailed check. If there was an airport, they would search the car. We

21 would be searched. Even if they were just neighbours and friends, they

22 knew who we were, there would be a detailed check. And as we were going

23 back from Sanica, I said to my brother, "Shall we have a joke," and he

24 said, "Why not?" So as they put out the sign to stop, I slowed down

25 because I was driving. And the policeman as he approached, when he came a

Page 9442

1 few metres from me, a couple metres from me, I then accelerated and then I

2 went all the way -- drove all the way to the Kljuc checkpoint. As we

3 arrived in Kljuc, they must have called Vinko, the chief, and Vinko was

4 very angry and said, "Why didn't you shoot?"

5 Q. And how did you hear that Vinko had said to the people at the

6 checkpoints, "Why didn't you shoot?"

7 A. Because he said that because Atif Dedic was at a checkpoint as a

8 member, which means that situation with us happened before the 7th of May.

9 Atif Dedic was there, as a policeman, a regular policeman. And as a

10 reservist from the army was a man by the surname of Sirar. I don't know

11 his first name. And I found out about Atif Dedic. That he said that to

12 Vinko. And I said to Vinko, "You would have killed your colleague," and

13 Vinko tried to justify and said that this wasn't true.

14 Q. Yes. Thank you. You can put that document away now.

15 Now, I want to move, then, back to -- or I want to keep on going

16 through the events of April and May. Could you please be shown now

17 document P892.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] We saw this yesterday?

19 MS. KORNER: I don't think so, Your Honour. But I may be wrong.

20 Q. This document is undated, but it's addressed -- and I think --

21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I will be corrected if I'm wrong,

22 but I don't have a note that this is objected to, although it's not signed

23 or dated.

24 In any event, while Madam Fauveau is checking that -- but I went

25 through her list, and I don't recall marking this particular document.

Page 9443

1 Q. It's addressed to the Kljuc Municipal Board -- oh, I'm sorry, the

2 Serbian Democratic Party, municipal of Kljuc, notification of a meeting of

3 the SDS Sokolovo local board. Now, again, could you have the map that you

4 looked at yesterday, which is -- that's a name that comes up a number of

5 times in these documents.

6 MS. KORNER: It's 1097. Thank you.

7 Q. If we could just put that on the ELMO and if you could point out

8 roughly where that is. We may have to use an alternate Serbian map, I

9 think, at some stage.

10 A. This is Donji Sokolovo. And this is the village of Crljeni.

11 Donji Sokolovo is located by the regional road between Kljuc and Sanski

12 Most, while a few kilometres up the hill is the local road leading to the

13 village of Crljeni. I think there's about 5 or 6 kilometres from Sokolovo

14 to Crljeni.

15 Q. Thank you. All right. And this is a report that "There are a

16 large number of weapons in the village of Crljeni, mostly automatic, which

17 have been distributed to the population already included in guard

18 watches. It was also discovered that those engaged on guard watch are

19 paid. They even have a commander and a guard shift leader. Also stressed

20 that the village has about 70 submachine-guns and one light machine-gun.

21 We also found out from the villagers that the following persons are

22 involved." And it names the people. I'll come back to that in a moment.

23 And then says: "We wish to draw your attention to the fact that the

24 Serbian people in this area are really under threat. The people ask you

25 to understand this serious situation and immediately undertake everything

Page 9444

1 within your power to address this issue."

2 First, the people that are named, did you know them,

3 Mr. Filipovic?

4 A. Yes, I did. I know Kemal Dedic, I know Muhedin Hrustic, I

5 know Miralem Medic, I know Jusuf Omerovic, and I know Latif Omerovic not

6 so well. But the ones I've mentioned, I know them well.

7 Q. It is said that they had about 70 submachine-guns and one light

8 machine-gun. Now, do you know whether or not that was true?

9 A. I don't think that's true.

10 Q. And what makes you say that?

11 A. Because if we had had in only one village so many weapons. Here

12 you can put a map up on here and we can see how many villages. Now, if we

13 had -- really would have had all the weapons that the SDS claimed that we

14 had. And out of this, most of the weapons were hunting rifles,

15 old-fashioned pistols, handguns with permits. And I'm not saying that

16 somebody didn't have an automatic or a semi-automatic rifle, which they

17 bought from JNA members.

18 Q. Was anybody in your organisation, the MBO, responsible within the

19 Crisis Staff of the Patriotic League -- responsible for keeping a list of

20 what weapons were available to the Muslim population?

21 A. Well, to tell you, we did have -- we knew about it. We knew what

22 weapons we had. When I mentioned earlier when I went to see Mr. Mujacic,

23 we particularly went to see him on this matter to ask from Sarajevo

24 Territorial Defence weapons, but the Serbs preempted us and they took the

25 Territorial Defence weapons to Kula. And the Territorial Defence weapons

Page 9445

1 belonged to Muslims, Serbs, and Croats. These are not the weapons owned

2 by the JNA but these are the weapons owned by the town of Kljuc.

3 Q. But you said you went to ask for help but you were preempted. Was

4 anybody actually saying, "This is what we know we have available for the

5 Muslim population"?

6 A. Who do you mean said that?

7 Q. No. Was there anybody that you're aware of who was responsible

8 for keeping a record, a written record, of what weapons were available to

9 members of the Muslim population?

10 A. We didn't keep a list and records, but we knew roughly what we had

11 because we had contact with people, so we knew when a person had a rifle,

12 anyone who bought a rifle would say, "I have a rifle." Everybody knew.

13 In my statement I said that there were five to seven hundred guns that

14 we had, and this would include automatic rifles, old-fashioned pistols,

15 handguns, and hunting rifles. This is according to the records that we

16 had.

17 Q. All right. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner.

19 Mr. Filipovic, could I kindly ask you to read the penultimate

20 paragraph, the one which starts [B/C/S spoken]. Could you read it aloud,

21 please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "We have listed here just some

23 individuals. Out of the total number of persons involved, that's about 70

24 people."

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Because this is missing in the English translation.

Page 9446

1 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps if you knew these -- the persons you

3 mentioned out of the list that shows -- is shown in this document, would

4 you agree that the -- in the organisation itself there were about 70

5 members? Would you agree that there were 70?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, the whole

7 village was involved in the organisation, men, women, and children,

8 although men were more exposed. And now to tell you where Crljeni is, to

9 tell you here in The Hague, I have to say that Crljeni is just a drop in

10 the ocean surrounded by the Serb territory. It's like a very, very small

11 pond in the Netherlands. This is what Crljeni is. And according to my

12 estimate, without any census data from 1991 how many inhabitants there

13 were, I believe that they were unable to do anything.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 Ms. Korner.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Sorry, Your Honour, I just noticed that

17 the next documents I think are out of place. I'm going to skip them.

18 Q. Yes. Can we come, please -- could you be shown Exhibit P167. It

19 comes after the second divider 10, and it follows on from 897.

20 This is a decision of the autonomous -- the Secretariat for

21 National Defence. And it is stamped on the other side and signed

22 secretary of the regional secretariat for National Defence, Colonel

23 Miodrag Sajic. Did you know who Colonel Sajic was, Mr. Filipovic?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 9447

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. This is dated the 4th of May, the decision. It calls for public

3 mobilisation, introduces a curfew in paragraph 4, and then in paragraph 5,

4 "All paramilitary formations and individuals in possession of illegal

5 weapons and ammunition are asked to surrender these weapons -- or those

6 weapons and ammunition immediately, or not later than 1500 hours on

7 the 11th of May, 1992." And I don't think you need trouble with the rest.

8 Now, do you recall, first of all, a -- the SAO Krajina calling for

9 general public mobilisation at the beginning of May?

10 A. I don't remember that the mobilisation was public, but the

11 mobilisation started when the war in Croatia started, so there was always

12 mobilisation, always new recruits were mobilised to leave. So I don't

13 know whether we as Muslims had publicly said that we were refusing to join

14 such an army, so I wasn't really interested in that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, page 35, line 4 says that Ms. Korner

17 asked the question "do you recall the SAO Krajina calling for general

18 public mobilisation." This document doesn't say anything about SAO

19 Krajina. In fact, there was no organisation as SAO Krajina. And so it's

20 a misstatement of the evidence or a mistake in the transcript. I'm not

21 sure which.

22 MS. KORNER: Well, Mr. Ackerman -- this is Mr. Ackerman's ploy to

23 say it's a mistake in the transcript. I said and Mr. Ackerman heard me

24 say and indeed I heard his legal assistant tell him something about this.

25 Your Honour, I apologise. I will read out what is in the

Page 9448

1 translation if these technical points are to be taken. What the document

2 is headed is "The Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Autonomous

3 Region of Bosanska Krajina republic secretariat for National Defence. The

4 number is 01-1/92. The date is the 4th of May, 1992. And the decision

5 which apparently is pursuant to a decision of the 16th of April, 1992 of

6 the Ministry of National Defence of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina is:

8 1. A call for general, public mobilisation on the entire

9 territory of what is said to be the AP Krajina."

10 However, you've already dealt -- however I called it,

11 Mr. Filipovic, you've dealt with that. But can I ask you about the second

12 paragraph -- I'm sorry, the fifth paragraph in this decision. The call

13 for disarmament of paramilitary formations and individuals in possession

14 of illegal weapons. They should be surrendered by -- immediately or by

15 the 11th of May, 1992. Do you recall any announcement being made in Kljuc

16 that there should be a surrender of what were termed "illegal

17 weapons and ammunition"?

18 A. I don't recall. But I know we didn't pay attention to this

19 because we believed that everything that was being done here was illegal

20 at that time. So very quickly, after that you can see here the date is

21 4th of May, 1992, three days later. There was the takeover of the

22 police. And from then on everything else that I spoke about came into

23 force.

24 Q. All right. Thank you. You can leave that document now. Thank

25 you very much.

Page 9449

1 Now, I want you to look, please, at the next document in the

2 bundle, P898.

3 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, again this comes from the Croatian

4 state archives, not the 1st Krajina Corps, although it is -- it does bear

5 a stamp.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We contest this document

9 for the same reasons. We don't know what the chain of custody was.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. And I understand what you

11 said earlier, applicable to the other document would apply to this

12 document as well.

13 MS. KORNER: Mr. Brown will deal with that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Correct.


16 Q. Can we look at the date. The document is dated the same day as

17 the document we've just looked at, the 4th of May, 1992. And it's signed

18 or -- I'm sorry, it bears the name at the end of Colonel Galic.

19 "Situations in unit. A reconnaissance platoon of the 30th

20 Partisan Division was formed of 52 volunteers from the broader Kljuc

21 municipality area."

22 And then over the page, please, in the translation but paragraph

23 6. "State of morale." The paragraph -- the second part of the paragraph

24 reads as follows: "Could you please intervene through the Krajina

25 government to exert its influence on representatives of the authorities in

Page 9450

1 Kljuc. Serbian extremism is increasingly present there, induced by the

2 official organs of authority, since the president of the municipality is

3 asking to have his own army which he would use as he sees fit. This must

4 be resolved urgently."

5 This was the -- the report was apparently being sent to the

6 command of the 5th Corps.

7 Now, were you aware of Mr. Banjac asking to have his own army?

8 A. I don't know whether he requested that, but what he did certainly

9 went in that direction. He was working on that, to make some kind of a

10 unit, that is, a Kljuc unit, whereby he would be the commander of it.

11 Q. And presumably the sentence "Serbian extremism is increasingly

12 present there," would you agree with that?

13 A. Yes, I agree completely.

14 Q. All right. If we then look on the same topic at the next

15 document, P899, please.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this does come from the 1st Krajina

17 Corps.

18 Q. This is dated the following day, the 5th of May. It's addressed

19 to the 30th Partisan Brigade command. And it seems to be a reply to the

20 previous report. It talks about the bridge in Donji Vakuf which was

21 mentioned and the transmitter in the wider area of Kljuc have recently

22 been destroyed.

23 Now, by the 5th of May, had a transmitter been destroyed?

24 A. The repeater wasn't destroyed. It was broken. The equipment --

25 I'm not an expert in this matter, but the equipment was broken so that it

Page 9451

1 made it impossible to follow the second channel. But there was still --

2 the pillar was still there on the Ramicki Kamen.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I think I'll have to

4 go back to the previous document because I did miss out a part that

5 this makes sense.

6 Q. Could you have back, please, 898. I'm sorry.

7 If we look at 3, "Situation in the territory." "Following the

8 destruction of the bridge in Donji Vakuf, most of the town's inhabitants

9 of Muslim nationality and many of Serbian nationality left, and now there

10 is practically nobody in charge in the town."

11 Then if you go over the page in the translation: "The problems in

12 connection with the Kljuc municipality are worsening due to the murder of

13 another Muslim in the village of Sehovci on the 3rd of May, 1992, when

14 Senad Dervisevic -- I think I'll give that one up -- son of Ibrahim was

15 murdered by military conscript, Pero Grujicic, son of Milutin, from the

16 village of Purici-Sitnica. The murder was committed while under the

17 influence of alcohol."

18 Very briefly, did you know about that murder, Mr. Filipovic?

19 A. Yes, I did know about it. The murder didn't happen in Sehici, but

20 the murder took place, as I explained yesterday, near the bus station on

21 the main street, Masala Tita Street, and very near the Galleria coffee

22 bar. Dervisevic Senad was killed. And yesterday I said that everything

23 ended by the statement that a drunken soldier had come from the front

24 exhausted, and after that we felt like feeling what will happen to us if

25 Serb soldiers come back from the front, come back tired. So people

Page 9452

1 started to stay at home, to go home and hide, as the Serb soldiers were

2 coming back from the front.

3 Q. Right. So --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The last sentence wasn't heard by the

5 interpreter.

6 MS. KORNER: Sorry.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The interpreter didn't hear the last

8 sentence. The -- what we have here -- "so people started to stay at home,

9 to go home and hide, as the Serb soldiers were coming back from the

10 front." Then you went on to say something else, another sentence. Could

11 you remember what you'd said, so the interpreters can translate it to us?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I went to his funeral.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, sir.

14 Whenever it's -- I think you can go to the transmitter thing now,

15 which is the next sentence, then refer to 899, and we'll have a break

16 after that.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


20 Q. "The TV repeater on the Osljak relay station in the village of

21 Ramici was sabotaged, and as a result there is no TV signal reception in

22 the Kljuc area. The sabotage was carried out by Muslim extremists in

23 response to the capture of the transmitter on Mount Vlasic."

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm just going ask one question on that,

25 then.

Page 9453

1 Q. The description of Muslim extremists. Who did sabotage this relay

2 station?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If you know.


5 Q. If you know.

6 A. I know one person, Emin Pejic. He was such an extremist. He's

7 even now in prison at the Zenica penitentiary. He is a young man with a

8 criminal file. And he as a criminal didn't like what he was seeing on TV,

9 so on his own initiative he went without anyone's order and he went and

10 destroyed this equipment so you could still follow the first channel of

11 Sarajevo television but you couldn't follow the second channel of -- so

12 that would have been Belgrade TV.

13 Q. Okay. Well, I think you may have answered the question, but was

14 this on any orders of any Muslim leaders that the relay was destroyed?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, we'll make arrangements over the

18 break for Mr. Filipovic to watch the video.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will have now a 20-minute break, extendable as

20 you make an assessment of the situation.

21 MS. KORNER: Well, would you -- I think if you say 25 minutes.

22 He'd have to go upstairs.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: 25 minutes break. If you need more so that you make

24 sure he can identify which parts of the video recording we need to see,

25 then obviously -- thank you.

Page 9454

1 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I apologise they had to ask for more

4 time. We had a slight --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem.

6 MS. KORNER: Mr. Filipovic has watched the video together with an

7 interpreter and investigator, has identified the part where you can see

8 the reporter. He can't -- he doesn't know what his name is, but he says

9 he can find out probably if it's so required. There are no credits as

10 such on the tape, but it mentions that it's from TV Banja Luka. So that's

11 the situation.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Okay.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Are from any comments from Mr. Ackerman or

15 Mr. Zecevic?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I don't -- I've not seen what

17 the witness thinks is a picture of the commentator, and so I don't know

18 what it is. If it's -- I mean, how does he know that the picture is a

19 picture of the person who actually did the commentating on the tape?

20 Because he was in Manjaca when the whole thing was done and I don't know

21 how he would know. He's apparently identified a picture of some bald guy,

22 but how can he say that's the person whose voice is the commentary, as he

23 said, he wasn't there. He was in Manjaca. He has no idea. And so -- I

24 don't know. Maybe if we saw that segment of the tape we would all draw

25 that conclusion, but I'm not certain we would. I haven't seen it, so I

Page 9455

1 don't know.

2 MS. KORNER: Why don't we ask the witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In fact, that's what I was going so do.

4 Do you have any remarks to make having heard what Mr. Ackerman had

5 to say?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the observation by

7 Mr. Ackerman is out of place and it is suited to a six-month-old child.

8 It's sufficient to see the video to know who is the commentator, and

9 therefore I stand by what I said.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And if Mr. Ackerman thinks I'm a

12 fool, then let it be.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't need to insult Mr. Ackerman, and I will

14 stop you if you try to do that. The lawyers are here to do their duty.

15 They have their clients to defend, and I will allow them to defend their

16 clients according to law. But I will stop you if you do anything which is

17 not according to law. And calling a lawyer that his remark is that of a

18 six-year-old child is very offensive, and I wouldn't expect it from

19 someone like you. I hope you got the message from me, because if you do

20 that, we will suddenly be on a head-on collision course, you and I.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you, Your Honour.


23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I, too, am a person, and

24 therefore Mr. Ackerman cannot accuse me of certain things. If the law

25 applies to me, it applies to you too.

Page 9456

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We simply asked you to explain. We asked you to

2 explain, and that's it.

3 So can we see the relevant part from the video recording, please.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it will have to go to the AV unit. It's

5 on -- if they start the counter at nought and run to 2419 according to our

6 counter -- and I know that not all counters are the same -- that should

7 show why Mr. Filipovic says that's the reporter.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

9 MS. KORNER: When the usher comes back, if the screen is done for

10 Mr. Filipovic, and if he just says "forward" or "back."

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, exactly.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, if -- when -- I think you have to -- does he

14 remain on "video monitor", or does he go on "computer monitor" now, at

15 this --

16 MS. KORNER: He goes on to "video" now, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You go on "video monitor." The usher will perhaps

18 help you with that.

19 Now, Mr. Filipovic, what's going to happen is the technician is

20 going to start relaying the video from where we told him to start from.

21 Now, that may be either precise, correct, or else a little bit before or a

22 little bit after. If we need to go back, please tell us so that we go

23 backwards a little bit. We do -- a rewind procedure.

24 I'm still waiting.

25 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]

Page 9457

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 [Videotape played]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I've already been to the doctor once today to -- to

4 have my neck checked. I don't want to go again to have my eyes checked.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what's happened is -- I'm sorry, a

6 complete misunderstanding. The video was set up from where it should

7 start, they've taken it back to --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Ms. Korner. Microphone.

9 Microphone, please.

10 MS. KORNER: The video was -- [French interpretation]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm hearing someone talking in French.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, I'm getting French now.

13 THE INTERPRETER: My apology. My apology. The French interpreter

14 was on the English channel.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. It's -- okay. Please make my life a

16 little bit more easy.

17 Ms. Korner tried to explain that she had -- that the tape was

18 set --

19 Okay. Madam Chuqing is clarifying that.

20 I think we are still in time to be able to go back, to revert.

21 MS. KORNER: If Your Honour the technicians go -- take it -- I've

22 had -- I don't know why. Each time we set up a video from the place that

23 it should start, something goes wrong. It's now going to be much more

24 difficult, but if you run it roughly forward for 20 minutes or so where

25 the beginning of the sequence is that deals with the members of the Crisis

Page 9458

1 Staff talking. It's about 20 minutes. Put that at nought and then run 24

2 on from that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Has that reached the technician, that explanation?

4 [Videotape played]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it after this, Mr. Filipovic? Do you remember

6 whether this -- what we are seeing now -- came before or after?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it should be wound forward.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. All right.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An armoured checkpoint -- a

10 checkpoint should appear.

11 MS. KORNER: Can we try fast-forwarding?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. It's supposed to -- I think it's being

13 fast-forwarded, but ...

14 MS. KORNER: Mr. Kondic is very loquacious.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you fast-forward it without us having to see

16 this? Because I understand from the little that I know that when you

17 fast-forward not having the picture on, it's much faster.

18 This is all your fault, Mr. Ackerman. You may sit down.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I will just take whatever punishment I deserve for

20 it, Your Honour. I'm prepared.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Perhaps the instruction from Madam Korner is not

22 that helpful. If we stop the picture, then the technician couldn't spot

23 where we should stop.

24 MS. KORNER: I didn't give that instruction. I'm told, however,

25 that if they take it -- if we stop this whole thing again, go back to the

Page 9459

1 beginning so that it's at nought, and then run it for 44 minutes, that

2 roughly we hope they get -- they've got a copy upstairs. So I think the

3 answer is go back, run it right back as they did to the beginning, and

4 then try at around 44 minutes.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there. Stop.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Go back a little bit.

9 [Videotape played]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this the -- this is where you want us to start?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the reporter. You asked me

12 to show you the person -- the interviewer in this programme, and this was

13 the commentator, the moderator of this whole broadcast.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we go back -- rewind just a little bit to see

15 where he comes into the picture. Is this being wound -- rewound or

16 forward?

17 I think, Ms. Korner, this is confusion being made more confounded.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as Mr. Filipovic will no doubt say, it's

19 perfectly apparent that this man is sticking -- holding a microphone under

20 the man's face and asking the questions, and that's what he's identifying,

21 and that's as far as we can take it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But let's go backwards a little bit to see --

23 this man on the screen from beginning to end, at least --

24 MS. KORNER: I don't think -- I think that's the first shot of

25 him.

Page 9460

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the first shot of him?

2 MS. KORNER: Yes.

3 [Videotape played]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we see it again, please.

5 [Videotape played]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think -- start from there.

7 Is there a way of eliminating this -- on an ordinary VCR, there

8 is. You just press a button and all this fluttering disappears.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have to say it's not a good quality

10 video. So --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But usually there is a button which

12 compensates for this and ...

13 [Videotape played]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we've seen enough. Thank you.

15 What perhaps could be helpful, if we could listen to the voice of

16 this person during this part of the video recording and then check any

17 other part of the video recording, whether we hear the same voice. Or is

18 it different?

19 MS. KORNER: I -- Your Honour, I don't know. But Your Honour, I'd

20 be extremely -- I'd express some reservation, as people acting as voice

21 experts.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But -- no, it's not a question of acting as

23 voice experts. It's acting to see whether there is a similarity to start

24 with.

25 MS. KORNER: Well, I mean, Your Honours, I -- as I say, I express

Page 9461

1 reservations about Your Honours saying, "Well, the man who's asking the

2 questions here, the voice is the same as the man --"

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It should be identical, at least to the ear. Then

4 it's --

5 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, I -- I'm raising this not because,

6 as Your Honour knows, we've had discussions about --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But on the face of it, Ms. Korner, if there

8 is an obvious disparity between one voice and another, then you obviously

9 beg the question. If there is an apparent similarity, I mean, one tends

10 not to put any further questions, without the need of entering into the

11 question of whether we are experts or not experts - we obviously aren't -

12 but at least on a prima fascia basis, one would expect to take that

13 measure. I mean, one could find out, for example, that the commentator is

14 a female voice. I don't know, I haven't seen the video. I haven't

15 listened to the commentator.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we are drifting some way away from the

17 point, in my submission. Whether it's the same commentator or whether it

18 isn't the same comment day or whether it's the man sticking a

19 microphone outside somebody's face is the same man as the man who does the

20 commentary earlier on, Your Honour, our submission is this is all

21 relevant and admissible evidence. And trying -- the Defence have said,

22 "We don't know who the reporter is." There's a photograph of the

23 reporter --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Who the commentator is.

25 MS. KORNER: Who the commentator is. Mr. Filipovic has said that

Page 9462

1 he could establish, no doubt the Defence could do it, because it comes

2 from Banja Luka Television, that whoever this man is or somebody who

3 watched the programme if that's required. I mean, the only objection the

4 Defence are raising is we don't know who this reporter is so we can't

5 interview him.


7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this happens all the time.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness has identified who he considers to

9 be the commentator. And what I am bringing out is precisely that if the

10 witness is saying, "This is the commentator," and luckily he has a

11 microphone in his hands and we should hear him speak, then obviously we

12 should be in a better position to know whether the witness's judgement

13 is -- or assessment is correct if we hear at least part of the commentary

14 to see whether there is a similarity in the voice. If there is a

15 similarity --

16 MS. KORNER: All right.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- in the voice, then obviously the Defence can come

18 up and put objections and you and the Defence say that we are not

19 experts - and we are not experts - but we are not deciding that it is. We

20 are just establishing on a prima fascia basis whether it's likely or

21 unlikely that we are talking of the same person.

22 MS. KORNER: Well, then, Your Honour, all I can suggest is that

23 the video people run it back so that we have some of the commentary and

24 you can hear it over the earphones, and then we go back to that same place

25 and you can hear the same voice.

Page 9463

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Because obviously, I mean -- if you hear my brother

2 speaking or talking and you hear me, you would immediately notice a

3 difference, even though we are brothers. But if you heard my father, for

4 example, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

5 MS. KORNER: I really don't think it's for me to comment on that,

6 Your Honour. But anyhow, I think the best thing is -- I think the best

7 thing is if the video people can run it back a bit so --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I would hear -- I would hear first the part

9 where the correspondent or the commentator -- the alleged commentator is

10 interviewing this other person whose name appears in a subtitle so that we

11 hear the voice of that person first, and then we'll hear part of the

12 commentary from some other part of the video recording.

13 [Videotape played]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we have the sound on, please.

15 Can we have the sound on, please.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Do you have a specific name of

18 somebody --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: There is -- this is -- everyone is trying to do his

20 best to confuse the -- make the situation more confounded. I don't want

21 any interpretation in this.

22 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to listen to the voice, particularly of the

24 person who is interviewing. So please rewind again just a little bit to

25 the place -- to the point where there are about six or seven people around

Page 9464

1 the truck or a tank or whatever it is, or a checkpoint. And then all of a

2 sudden this bald-headed man appears on the scene.

3 [Videotape played]

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Stop there, please.

6 Can we go to -- now, I don't know the tape. You have obviously

7 seen it, Ms. Korner. Is the rest, say, a few metres forward -- do we have

8 the commentator now or -- or do we have to go backward or forward?

9 MS. KORNER: I think we need to go -- I was looking at the

10 transcript to see if we could identify a part where there's pure

11 commentary. I think you would need to go back to around 39.55. So go

12 back to about that. And we'll see the pictures of the area. There's

13 commentary.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. The -- I see the technician has

15 understood that.

16 MS. KORNER: It's on page 8 of the transcript.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So 39 is 39th minute, in other words.

18 Okay.

19 MS. KORNER: But again, the counters vary.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thanks.

21 [Videotape played]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Okay.

23 Now, any further comments from Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Zecevic before we

24 decide?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm not a voice expert, but it sounds like

Page 9465

1 the same voice to me.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I cannot tell. There is only one

3 other thing. I wouldn't like to split the hair in two. I'm just

4 wondering -- Ms. Korner said that there is a certain piece of this -- of

5 this tape which says it's Banja Luka Television.


7 MR. ZECEVIC: That it was produced by Banja Luka Television? I

8 haven't seen that. I'm sorry.


10 MR. ZECEVIC: But we can clarify that out of court. I mean, I

11 didn't want to lose any more time.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And also there are two -- in fact, this is what I

13 was waiting for, reactions from you obviously, but there are two things

14 that I was going to mention, having first established that there is at

15 least a similarity -- a prima fascia similarity in the voice. One is that

16 Ms. Korner has in effect pointed out that this was a Banja Luka TV

17 production, and therefore on that basis one can possibly assume -- I would

18 assume that one could establish who the commentator was.

19 Secondly, it seems to me, at least this is what you suggested,

20 Ms. Korner, that Mr. Filipovic, the witness, would probably in all

21 probability be in a position to tell us the name if he checked this out.

22 MS. KORNER: I would rather imagine that Mr. Brdjanin, who was

23 there at the time, might be able to give instructions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So you want me to ask him.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: There is absolutely no evidence that Mr. Brdjanin

Page 9466

1 was there at the time or that he was ever in Kljuc. I mean, that's just

2 outrageous.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, Mr. Ackerman. Okay. Sit down.

4 MS. KORNER: In Banja Luka in 1992. I didn't think there was any

5 dispute at all in this case that Mr. Brdjanin was in Banja Luka in 1992.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I can't ask Mr. Brdjanin whether he

7 identifies the bald man.

8 MS. KORNER: No. But Your Honour, what we're -- as I think -- as

9 I say, I think we've been drifting away from the point. I'm saying that

10 this is -- this tape is admissible evidence which we can play. The

11 Defence have objected on the basis they can't identify the reporter.

12 Mr. Filipovic has pointed out the gentleman who is the reporter. I

13 suppose Mr. Filipovic could start asking round and whatever.


15 MS. KORNER: But it seems to me there's a much quicker way of

16 doing it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: At this point in time, may I ask the Defence whether

18 you have any other arguments, apart from not being able -- the argument

19 that you put forward earlier, not being able to identify the

20 commentator -- who the commentator was. Do you have any other arguments

21 on the basis of you would suggest that this Chamber does not accept

22 this document or this exhibit?

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, with all due respect, I would like to

24 very shortly summarise what is the basis of our objection.

25 First of all, we don't know when this tape was -- when this

Page 9467

1 programme was actually aired on the television. We don't know on which

2 television. We assume it's the Banja Luka television. We don't know who

3 produced it. We don't know the name of the journalist or whether it's the

4 same person as the commentator. And that's the basis of our objection if

5 I -- if my learned colleague agrees with that. Thank you.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree with that, Your Honour. And I would add

7 this: It is the burden of the Prosecutor to establish who the speakers

8 are on a tape that they want to put into evidence. It's not the burden of

9 the Defence to figure out who they are. And it seems to me before this

10 should be admitted, it is Ms. Korner's burden to tell Your Honours who

11 all the voices are that are speaking on this tape. And until that's done,

12 I object to its -- to the tape in its entirety. I would permit if the

13 commentator part is all extracted, then I would have no objection. But

14 until she identifies the actual person who's speaking at each point in

15 this tape, I think it's not admissible.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Our decision is that at this point in time, things

18 being what they are, this video recording is admissible subject to the

19 confirmation in due course of who -- of the identity of the commentator.

20 MS. KORNER: So Your Honours are ordering us to try and establish

21 who the commentator is.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I mean, your witness said that he can do it

23 himself, actually. So of course he -- I do not give him permission to

24 ring anybody while he is still giving evidence to establish, but I'm

25 pretty sure that having finalised his testimony here, concluded his

Page 9468

1 testimony, he can give you the name. I don't -- I don't think at this

2 point in time -- we don't foresee, at least, the way we see it -- we don't

3 foresee any difficulty in establishing the identity of the commentator.

4 And I am assuming throughout that what you stated earlier, that

5 this is a production of the Banja Luka TV production is correct.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I understand it's actually said.


8 MS. KORNER: This is what the interpreter watching it today in

9 fact who did the -- the translator.


11 MS. KORNER: I mean, I --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because that would change the picture. If we're

13 talking of something different, I mean, that would mean that we have in a

14 way misled -- involuntarily misled the Defence into believing something

15 which is important.

16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm reliably informed, and I have

17 every faith in the translator --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

19 MS. KORNER: -- that it's stated somewhere that this is a Banja

20 Luka Television production.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's go ahead.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we may as well, while I'm at it,

23 although I'm going to play it in full at a later stage in Mr. Filipovic's

24 evidence. Could it be marked then P -- because it's with the audio-visual

25 booth -- P1100.

Page 9469

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's okay. I just thought for a moment that

2 you had missed a couple of numbers. But you are correct.

3 MS. KORNER: I don't think so.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. You are right. Yes.


6 Q. All right. Mr. Filipovic, before we had this interlude about the

7 video, we were looking at two 1st KK -- I'm sorry, two military

8 documents. And can we just complete this, please, this part of the --

9 could you look now, please, at document P900.

10 This is the 5th Corps reporting to the 2nd Military Command. And

11 if we look at item -- under item 3, "Situation in the territory," over on

12 the second page of the translation, "The situation in the municipality of

13 Kljuc is still serious, especially after the repeater was put out of

14 action and a Serb killed a Muslim."

15 So if we look at the sequence, we have the 5th Partisan -- 30th

16 Partisan Division reporting to the command of the 5th Corps, the 5th Corps

17 replying to them, and then the 5th Corps reporting to the 2nd Military

18 District Command.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Sorry to interrupt you like this,

20 Ms. Korner. I hate to do it. But it is my recollection before we had a

21 break -- you started asking the witness on Exhibit P899. Then it -- it

22 transpired that you wanted to stop for a moment and refer back to the

23 previous document, which is 898. I would have assumed that you wanted to

24 continue with 899 having finished with 898.

25 MS. KORNER: I dealt with everything in it. Well, Your Honour,

Page 9470

1 let me just follow it through for Your Honour to make absolutely certain

2 that we're all on the same wavelength.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Because you never asked questions on 899.

4 MS. KORNER: I did. I suddenly realised that in order to make

5 sense on it --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. You've had to go back to 898.

7 MS. KORNER: Yeah. But it's self-evident now what we're talking

8 about.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But --

10 MS. KORNER: Can we just follow it through, because all the

11 documents are --

12 Your Honour, in Exhibit P898, the document that comes from the

13 Croatian state archive, it's a report of the 30th Partisan Division of the

14 4th of May to the 5th Corps dealing with the destruction of the bridge in

15 Donji Vakuf and then the murder in Kljuc municipality and the TV

16 repeater. And then the request for the Krajina government to exert its

17 influence on the authorities in Kljuc.

18 The next document, 899, which I started to deal with before I

19 realised it didn't make sense without 898, is the response of the 5th

20 Corps to the 30th Partisan Brigade talking about the transmitter and

21 giving an order to submit a detailed report on the demonstration of

22 Serbian extremism and so on.

23 And then in 900 --


25 MS. KORNER: They're reporting up to the 2nd Military District.

Page 9471

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So there are no questions on 899.




5 Q. Now, can we look, please, next at P901, the 5th of May as well.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, by my records, this is objected to as

7 well.

8 Headed "The Kljuc Municipal Assembly."

9 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. You have interrupted

12 Ms. Korner when she was posing the question. The witness never answered

13 the question. There is no answer in the transcript as far as I can find

14 in the -- there is a question, Your Honours --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: About 900.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Page -- it starts page 56, line 25. And then I

17 cannot find the answer.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Probably he's right.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: And it can be assumed that it's a submission and not

20 a question. Thank you, Your Honours.

21 MS. KORNER: Well, I -- Your Honour, I can't without looking

22 at it, I have no idea what I asked, if I asked anything.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, actually, I stopped you.

24 MS. KORNER: What did I ask when you stopped me?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Where you were dealing with situation in the

Page 9472

1 territory, you had just started asking a question -- reading, actually,

2 from what there is on the first page of Exhibit P900. The part you were

3 referring to was --

4 MS. KORNER: I don't -- yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: "Situation in the territory."

6 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, I don't think I was actually asking

7 a question. I was merely effectively drawing the witness's attention --

8 more Your Honours' attention to the sequence of events.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

10 MS. KORNER: I wasn't asking a question.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: But I am going to ask a question about this

13 document.

14 Q. Exhibit P901, Kljuc Municipal Assembly, dated the 5th of May,

15 1992. And then it says: "Pursuant to the decision by the government of

16 the Autonomous Region of Krajina, the president of the council for

17 Territorial Defence of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly issued the

18 following --" I'm not so interested in items 1 -- item 1 --

19 2. The entire territory of the municipal assembly shall be placed

20 under curfew."

21 Do you recall at the beginning of May, Mr. Filipovic, a curfew

22 being ordered?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I just want to ask you this, because you mentioned this in

25 relation to another document that we saw yesterday, I think, about -- that

Page 9473

1 it didn't bear the various numbers which would mean it was logged as part

2 of municipal assembly documents. As far as this document is concerned, is

3 there anything to suggest that this wasn't issued by the assembly in some

4 form or other?

5 A. There isn't, because this document was dated the 5th of May. And

6 as I said on several occasions, the takeover of the police took place on

7 the 7th of May. So while this was done, the ceremony of writing back and

8 forth, the curfew had already started, and it was introduced, as it can be

9 seen, that the order was recorded under 05014592 and it was dated the 5th

10 of May, 1992. At that time we, the Muslims, did not take part in the

11 authority, in the power.

12 Q. Yes. All that I'm concerned about, Mr. Filipovic, as far as

13 you're -- I know you weren't part of this. But this document is the type

14 of document with all the figures, the stamp, and whatever, that would be

15 issued by the assembly.

16 A. Yes, it is. That's right.

17 Q. All right.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If Ms. Korner has a copy,

21 where the signature of Mr. Banjac is legible, I would be very grateful if

22 we can have it, because on our copy there is no signature.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: In ours there is a hint of a signature.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we can certainly see. But -- all

25 right. Well, it's perfectly clear to Your Honours. It's also clear to

Page 9474

1 Madam Fauveau why I'm asking these questions. The goal post shift on each

2 of these documents -- and I'm just trying to establish when we're ever

3 going to reach some consensus.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Fauveau may be wrong, but if you look at

5 Exhibit P904, there seems to be the signature of Jovo Banjac. I have

6 never seen it in real life, so I can't vouch that it is.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, Mr. Filipovic has.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But -- we can show it to Mr. Filipovic.

9 Please, usher, can you show Mr. Filipovic Exhibit P904.

10 Sir, can I kindly ask you to look at the signature at the bottom

11 of the page and confirm to me if that is -- confirm to us if that is Jovo

12 Banjac's signature.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. Because if anybody

14 would sign for him, he would have to write "for." It would say "for the

15 president of the Crisis Staff." And then by adding "for," then would add

16 their own signature. But here you can see the letter "B." This is Jovo

17 Banjac's signature.

18 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 MS. KORNER: Let's move on.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So that solves the problem as well. Let's go on.


23 Q. Can we look, please, at the next document, at -- which is P902,

24 which relates back, it would appear, to the three documents we looked at a

25 moment ago. This does come from the 1st Krajina Corps.

Page 9475

1 It's a document dated the 8th of May from the Banja Luka Corps

2 command addressed to the Autonomous Region AR -- I'll read this

3 properly -- to the AR Krajina Assembly, to the president, and

4 information on the situation in Kljuc Municipal Assembly.

5 "Dear sir, you are well aware of the efforts that we are

6 investing together with you and the municipal leaderships in preserving

7 the peace in Krajina. We would have failed in these efforts had it not

8 been for the high level of cooperation between the military and civilian

9 authorities, which we have no doubt shall continue.

10 "With the goal in mind of upholding the peace and continuing our

11 fruitful cooperation, we would like to inform you that we are dissatisfied

12 with the cooperation provided by the municipal organs in the municipality

13 of Kljuc. We care deeply to achieve stability in this area too. However,

14 there is a presence in the municipality of Kljuc of extremism and

15 disregard for anything which is not Serbian. There are Chetnik units

16 being formed there that are led by self-proclaimed Vojvodas, desertion

17 from the JNA units is being encouraged (an entire battalion deserted from

18 Kupres) under the pretext that 'they are going to defend Kljuc', two

19 Muslims were killed for unknown reasons, and the president of the

20 municipal assembly is attempting to exercise command over the JNA units in

21 the area.

22 "In order to avoid further misunderstandings and conflicts

23 between the JNA units and the extremists in the municipality of Kljuc, we

24 would hereby like to appeal to you to use both your own authority and the

25 measures at the disposal of the authorities to intercede with the

Page 9476

1 leadership of the municipality of Kljuc regarding the urgency of putting

2 an end to various Vojvodas and extremists and of respecting those

3 solutions that have been successful in safeguarding the peace on the

4 Autonomous Region."

5 Two questions about this document: It refers to Chetnik units

6 being formed there that are being led by self-proclaimed Vojvodas. Were

7 you aware of these Chetnik units? Is that what you've already described

8 to us as the Red Berets or something different?

9 A. This is another matter. We all know who Chetniks are, who

10 Chetniks were. The Chetniks are a Serb guard from the Second World War.

11 And they believe that if they called themselves Chetniks, then that would

12 mean that they are true Serb fighters. Specifically a Chetnik on his

13 uniform had a cockade and a fur hat, and I saw personally a couple of them

14 in Kljuc walking about. I knew two of them who declared themselves to be

15 Vojvodas. Whether they were Vojvodas or not, this, Your Honours would

16 have to be asked of the SDS. I know that they wanted people to address

17 them as Vojvodas. One was Milenko and the other one was Vojinovic.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. Vojinovic Brane from Sanica.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Just one thing, Your Honours. 64.13, I believe the

22 witness has said the other name of the gentleman. I didn't get it. But

23 he says "from Sanica." I believe he said that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Is Mr. Zecevic correct, Mr. Filipovic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said he was from Sanica.

Page 9477

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


3 Q. Can we move, then, to what -- adopt the next document, which has

4 been marked P171. I think it was probably originally 903.

5 And this just deals with what you've mentioned on a number of

6 occasions, the changes in the police force. It's headed "Crisis Staff of

7 the Kljuc municipality." It's an announcement. And it says: "The Crisis

8 Staff of the Kljuc Municipality informs citizens that yesterday, the 7th

9 of May 1992, certain changes have been made in the Kljuc public security

10 station concerning the uniforms of the police employees and the signing of

11 a solemn oath."

12 And I can summarise the rest. It describes them as wearing blue

13 berets, the Cyrillic script, the Serbian flag is to be flown together with

14 the Yugoslav flag as a symbol signifying the fact that Kljuc municipality

15 is now part of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina and the Serbian

16 Republic.

17 And it goes on to say this: "The very act of replacing the

18 symbols will not threaten the livelihood of those workers who did not sign

19 the solemn oath and refused the new symbols because attempts will be made

20 to create conditions for their further work, in other words employment

21 which corresponds to their qualifications and professional training."

22 From your knowledge, Mr. Filipovic, was that true that the

23 livelihood of workers who did not sign was not threatened?

24 A. It is not true. All those who didn't sign the loyalty statement

25 to the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina were left without a job, were

Page 9478

1 made jobless.

2 Q. Was there any consultation with any of the leaders of the Muslim

3 parties, the SDA and the MBO, before this change was made?

4 A. That's out of the question. This is an obvious example of the

5 arrogance of the SDS and the leadership of the SDS.

6 Q. And just to finish the document: "Citizens of the Kljuc

7 Municipality know that the municipal assembly reached the decision about

8 the Kljuc Municipality joining the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina

9 and since this is a part of the Serbian Republic, the Kljuc municipality

10 will automatically be obliged to implement laws and decisions reached by

11 the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

12 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina.

13 "One obligation that the Kljuc Municipality is obliged to

14 implement is to change the insignia. The changes should have been

15 implemented earlier, as was done in almost all municipalities belonging to

16 the Autonomous Region."

17 They then -- the document goes on to say they postponed the

18 implementation of this task so that it could achieve its realisation in

19 the most peaceful way possible.

20 "The Crisis Staff considers that after the implemented changes,

21 the authorities in the municipal assembly should continue with the regular

22 work. But it is noted that all decisions will be reached and all jobs

23 carried out in accordance with the regulations and decisions of the

24 authorities of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina and the Serbian

25 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

Page 9479

1 And it calls -- to summarise the rest, the citizens should carry

2 on regular jobs. "All citizens are guaranteed civil rights and liberties

3 regardless of their national or religious affiliation as long as they

4 behave correctly towards the authorities and do not disturb peace and

5 threaten safety of citizens and property.

6 "Citizens are notified that the increased presence of armed

7 forces on the territory of the municipality is by no means an attack on

8 the freedom and safety of any of the nationalities," and so on and so

9 forth.

10 Now, was that the first time, Mr. Filipovic, that you became aware

11 that there was a Crisis Staff -- a Serbian Crisis Staff operating in

12 Kljuc, or were you aware of that earlier?

13 A. I was aware of it earlier.

14 Q. And I think you may have told us that yesterday, but how did you

15 become aware of it?

16 A. We learnt that simply from conversations and stories. As soon as

17 the multi-party system became operational in Kljuc, the Crisis Staff of

18 the SDS was in existence from the beginning of 1991. The president was

19 Jovo Banja, and his deputy Veljko Kondic, so that this was -- it was only

20 normal to know that there was a Crisis Staff even before this date.

21 Q. All right. If you can't remember, just say so. Was this,

22 however, the first time there had been a public announcement of the

23 existence of a Crisis Staff?

24 A. I think this was the first time, because they believed at the time

25 that in Kljuc there were only Serbs now, that is, a people that has power,

Page 9480

1 whereas the other peoples are subordinated. Here in this announcement it

2 says that property is guaranteed. However, I can state with full

3 responsibility here that property was not guaranteed. Any Serb could

4 enter my house and take what he wanted, what he liked, from a pen to a

5 recorder or car. It's not necessary for me to list other objects.

6 Everything, in short. So there was no security. This was just the

7 throwing smoke into the eyes of people, saying that they would be safe.

8 Q. All right.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I -- normally I'd wait to the end, but

11 I think it might be hard to reconstruct. 67, line 15, we have a question

12 as to whether he said "Veljko Kondic" or "Vinko Kondic."

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I heard him say, "Veljko Kondic." But I

14 stand to be corrected.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: We thought we heard "Vinko." It probably is

16 Veljko.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You said, sir, the Crisis Staff -- you learnt about

18 the Crisis Staff's existence as way back as the beginning of the 1991.

19 Then you said the president was Jovo Banjac and his deputy was Veljko

20 Kondic or Vinko Kondic?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Veljko Kondic. Veljko.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


24 Q. Yes. Could we now have a look -- could you just have Exhibit P904

25 again, the one you were asked to identify the signature of.

Page 9481

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Incidentally, Madam Fauveau, 917 has also got

2 the signature of this gentleman, a little bit different but it's obvious

3 that we are talking of -- sorry, not 917. I will soon tell you which one

4 it is. Anyway, let's go --

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm taking us through these documents at

6 the moment.



9 Q. Again, this is a public announcement --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 913.

11 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, 904 I'm on.

12 Q. And it -- item number 2 states: "Read out the order to disarm

13 citizens that you received earlier." This is the 9th of May. Do you

14 recall any order at that stage about people having to be disarmed?

15 A. As far as I know, public announcements were not issued. But I

16 personally in this period lived through an incident, if I could call it

17 that. I went to work. I had a pistol on me. And as I went inside to

18 work, and there was -- it was quite illogical for the police to be there

19 and reserve officers of the JNA asking, "Do you have any weapons?" I

20 said, "Yes." They addressed me and my brother. I said I had a pistol

21 with a licence. "You have to leave it." I left the pistol and look out

22 the bullets. He wanted the bullets. I wouldn't let him have them. I

23 said, "You want to steal some bullets?" And then he gave me a

24 certificate, a receipt. I said, "Why are you searching only employed

25 Muslims and not Serbs?" Jovo Banjac was following me. "Why don't you

Page 9482

1 search him. He certainly must have a weapon." And the guard said, "It's

2 none of your business to tell us who we would search." I went in, had

3 some coffee, and went back, so I know for sure that there were such

4 things. As for public announcements on the disarming of citizens, I can't

5 say that there were any on Radio Kljuc.

6 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, in fact, if we look -- if you look

7 at the handwritten part --

8 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I think we can see, because it refers to 2, read

9 out the orders to disarm citizens. "We call on armed citizens who are not

10 members of legitimate military or other units to hand their weapons over

11 to the Kljuc public security station by the 11th of May."

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour -- I don't know what Your Honour is

13 intending to do today in the light of the -- to sit through with the

14 change of tapes or ...?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That was my intention, because we had too many -- we

16 lost precious time today. Obviously we will need to stop for about five

17 minutes or so, so that they can change the tape, and then we'll stop as

18 usual at half past 6.00.

19 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can recover some of the lost time.

21 MS. KORNER: Can we now go, please, to document --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's unless the interpreters and the technicians

23 and anyone else involved finds it too difficult to cope with.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are fine, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And the technicians, whenever it is necessary for us

Page 9483

1 to stop for technical reasons, to change tapes, et cetera, please let us

2 know.

3 MS. KORNER: P51, please, which is a meeting of the 14th of May.

4 It follows on from, I'm sorry, P374 -- it's after 905.

5 Q. This is headed -- let's look at the original. Yes, it's with a

6 stamp, "Command of the 1st Partisan Brigade," dated the 14th of May,

7 1992. It's a meeting with presidents of municipalities in the zone of

8 responsibility of the Division. It sets out the agenda.

9 And then present at the meeting: "Commander of the 3rd Partisan

10 Division, Colonel Stanislav Galic." Pausing there for a moment. Did you

11 ever meet or come across Colonel Galic in Kljuc?

12 A. I may have come across him, but I don't know. I didn't meet him,

13 because I don't know him except from television, so I didn't meet him.

14 Q. The Commander of the 6th Partisan Brigade, Colonel Basara. And

15 then Commander of the TO staff in Kljuc, Major Bosko Lukic; president of

16 the Kljuc Municipal Assembly; and then there was Sipovo, Mrkonjic Grad,

17 Jajce, Donji Vakuf, Bugojno, and then Mr. Kalabic. And the president of

18 Kljuc acquainted those present with the goal of this meeting.

19 If we go, please, where it's headed "Kljuc Municipality," or

20 "Kljuc SO." "After the partial takeover of power, the situation of the

21 territory of the Kljuc municipality is relatively calm. The time of the

22 takeover of power, units from the 9th Corps (Laniste) and the 5th Corps (a

23 battalion of the 6th Partisan Brigade and the 3rd Battalion of the 1st

24 Partisan Brigade) were securing Kljuc.

25 "Since the part of the territory between Kljuc and Sanski Most is

Page 9484

1 controlled by the 6th Partisan Brigade and the city itself by units of the

2 Serbian Territorial Defence and reserve police, the conclusion is that

3 Kljuc is safe for now."

4 This is the 14th of May. Would you agree with that as an

5 assessment of the situation in Kljuc, that it was calm and that it was

6 controlled by the military and police?

7 A. Well, the city was under control of the Serbian police much

8 earlier, and they considered it to be peaceful. They were aware of us, so

9 there was no chance of us being able to jeopardise them. They were

10 convinced 100 per cent that there was peace. Because what can a handful

11 of people do to such an organised army?

12 Q. And then just literally -- I don't think we need trouble about the

13 other municipalities. It refers to the decision taken to name the armed

14 forces of Krajina, the Army of the Serbian Republic of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It talks about the strategic goals that had been

16 formulated at the meeting in Banja Luka. And finally the president of

17 Kljuc, Jovo Banjac, said that "In Kljuc the policy of finding a peaceful

18 solution to the problems were still being pursued." He also said that

19 "Kljuc municipality will work for the army with all its available

20 strength and propose to set up a military police department to control the

21 behaviour of reservists on leave."

22 So that's the 14th of May. And can we now look, please, at the

23 next document, which is marked P196, at around the same period of time.

24 If we look at the original. It's got a stamp on it.

25 MS. KORNER: I don't know whether this was the one that Your

Page 9485

1 Honour was --


3 MS. KORNER: There's a trace of a signature, it looks like.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

5 MS. KORNER: All right. Now, I just want to look at a couple of

6 things from this.

7 Q. The agenda was "1, the adoption of decisions (conclusions) on

8 behalf of the Kljuc municipality pursuant to the decisions of the

9 Autonomous Region of Krajina." Yes. Well -- and it also says, "the

10 Krajina AR" -- if one looks at the original, it certainly mentions Krisni

11 Stab, I think. Crisis Staff.

12 Then on item 1: "Banjac, president of the Crisis Staff, informed

13 the members of Crisis Staff of the conclusions adopted by the Crisis Staff

14 of the Krajina AR on the 11th of May, 1992."

15 MS. KORNER: I don't know whether Your Honours have available

16 P227; probably not. But I wonder if we could just put it up on the

17 board -- on the ELMO. All right.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: And while we're doing this, just in passing, I

19 think this is the same document we looked at the other day that

20 Ms. Fauveau drew attention to that first paragraph, that it refers to in

21 the plural to the Crisis Staffs of the Autonomous Region and not the ARK

22 Crisis Staff.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MS. KORNER: No, she didn't. She's shaking her head, and she

25 didn't.

Page 9486

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If I remember well, 227 is a document which we used

3 very often in Sanski Most.

4 MS. KORNER: No. It's the Banja Luka.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, the Banja Luka. It's one document that has been

6 coming up on a regular basis. That -- but --

7 MS. KORNER: No. We're now all at cross -- we're at

8 cross-purposes. I think Mr. Ackerman is suggesting that we've looked at

9 document 196 before, which we haven't -- oh, we have during Mr. --

10 Dr. Donia's evidence, and he's saying that Madam Fauveau had pointed

11 something out. I don't think that that's right.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Nicholls wanted

13 to use this document, and this document does mention the Crisis Staffs and

14 not the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

15 MS. KORNER: It says -- all right. Can we -- for a moment.

16 Sorry, usher.

17 Can we stick to 196. It says "Staffs" in the plural in fact in

18 the translation as well. So I don't see what the problem is.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The problem is that when

20 Mr. Nicholls wanted to use it, he spoke of the Crisis Staff of the

21 Autonomous Region and it is in response to that that I contested the use

22 of this document by Mr. Nicholls at the time on this basis.

23 MS. KORNER: All right.


25 MS. KORNER: One way or another. Can we just put up for a moment

Page 9487

1 on the ELMO so that we can all see it the English of the -- this one. I'm

2 sorry, usher. This one. Sorry. Which is -- no, you should -- come

3 here. I'll just give you this for the moment. Sorry. I don't mean to

4 say come here like that. Would you be kind enough to come here.

5 It's been a somewhat stressful afternoon.

6 And if you just put -- yes.

7 Your Honour, just to remind ourselves, this is the -- it's the

8 weapons that the primary schools and all of those. Can we just move

9 it up for a moment, slightly, on the ELMO so that we can see 4. "The work

10 of the Crisis Staff has given full support," management posts, able-bodied

11 men, and so on and so forth. Yes. Thank you.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, I'm confused. What document was that

13 that was just on there?

14 MS. KORNER: P227.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: 227. Thank you.

16 MS. KORNER: 227.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry to interrupt.


19 Q. Then if we go back to, please, Exhibit P196. These are the

20 conclusions that were adopted by the Crisis Staff in Kljuc, the deadline

21 being extended. And once the deadline is expired, officers of the

22 security services of the Krajina Autonomous Region will proceed to

23 confiscate weapons and take strict measures against those who fail to

24 respond to the call of the Crisis Staff." It deals with the schools, the

25 military records.

Page 9488

1 4: "The meeting supports the activities of the Krajina Autonomous

2 Region Crisis Staff." And then "All wartime operation of enterprises, all

3 management positions in enterprises must be filled by people absolutely

4 loyal to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

5 Do you recall any -- you've told us you don't remember anything

6 about surrender of weapons and the deadline, but do you recall anything

7 being issued in respect of the school year, that it should end by the 20th

8 of May?

9 A. I just know that that period things were hastened. I had a son.

10 I think he went to second grade of elementary school. But Your Honours, I

11 really can't say whether he went to school or didn't go to school just

12 then because I was indignant about the situation as it evolved and I would

13 often say to his mother, "Don't send the child to school. He's safer at

14 home." So I really don't know. I have no idea whether he completed his

15 school year or not.

16 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you very much. You can give that document

17 back to the usher.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Filipovic, you are -- if you are tired, if you

19 feel tired and you want to stop at any time, just tell us so.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no problem.


22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can manage. Considering all the

23 things I lived through in the past, I can manage through this very well.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.


Page 9489

1 Q. Could you just look now, please, at Exhibit 907, 15th of May.

2 Again, this appears to be some kind of an order. And it relates to

3 members of units -- I'm sorry, "All recruited conscripts and citizens in

4 possession of firearms prohibited from using them without authorisation

5 strictly prohibited to spread disinformation, engage in propaganda

6 activities, and provoke incidents," and so on.

7 And simply one question: Do you remember anything being

8 announced, for example, that it was prohibited to spread disinformation or

9 engage in propaganda activities?

10 A. I remember this. This was a kind of formal -- just a formal order

11 so that Mr. Banjac could say, "You see, I did order." But on a daily

12 basis, from hour to hour, whenever reservists passed through there was

13 firing, shooting, throwing of hand grenades from the lorries onto the --

14 onto the ground. It wasn't inside the town, but it was on the access

15 roads. There was shooting onto religious facilities. I was present when

16 I believe that it was a unit from Titov Drvar, when they fired at a

17 mosque in Velagici that was later destroyed. We went to see, and the main

18 body of the mosque was completely bullet-ridden. So this was just an

19 order by Mr. Banjac so that he can have a clear conscience, but in fact

20 what he thought was just continue shooting.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. We can now move on to the 20th of May.

22 And can you be shown, please, Exhibit 203. Now, this is --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we stop for five minutes.

24 MS. KORNER: Oh, sorry. Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

Page 9490

1 --- Break taken at 6.03 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes.

4 Q. P203, have you still got that, Mr. Filipovic? This is a meeting

5 of the 20th of May. One of the conclusions: "There's no reason for the

6 population of any nationality to move out of the territory of the

7 Autonomous Region of Krajina." It's actually headed, in fact, "Serbian

8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis

9 Staff, Banja Luka." And then it looks like this has been forwarded to

10 Kljuc and stamped by them.

11 Anyhow, were people of non-Serb nationality moving out of Kljuc at

12 this stage, the 20th of May?

13 A. Yes. They were mostly women and children. We, the men, remained

14 in case there was war, that we would try and protect our homes. However,

15 whoever was in a position to send wives and children abroad, they did it.

16 The Serbs knew that. And there were many problems on the border crossing

17 from Bosnia to Croatia. People were mistreated. There were robberies and

18 there were many problems when people were leaving Bosnia. So one would

19 have to take a lot of money in order to bribe whoever was needed, in

20 order to leave Bosnia, so it was women and children who left.

21 Q. And I know in one sense you've answered this, Mr. Filipovic, but

22 why were you, the men, sending your wives and children away?

23 A. I did not. My wife and my child remained with me.

24 Q. I know. I'm sorry. Just pause. I don't mean you personally.

25 You've told us already your wife remained. But why were Muslim men, or

Page 9491

1 non -- men of non-Serb nationality sending wives and children away?

2 A. Well, they sent them away to safety, some kind of safety, because

3 Kljuc was not safe at the time, so they believed that if they went to

4 Austria or Germany, they would be safe. And because there were mostly

5 people who worked there for a number of years, so they had employment

6 there, they had an apartment, they had all the problems resolved, so

7 that's where they sent them.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Ms. Korner has said that with regard

10 to this document, she correctly described how it is headed -- she says

11 that "it looks like this has been forwarded to Kljuc and stamped by

12 them." I don't know that that's anything but a -- an assertion and

13 conclusion on her part, because there's nothing -- I'm looking at the

14 document. There's nothing on there that makes it look like it's been

15 forwarded to Kljuc and stamped by them. It appears to be a document that

16 was prepared in Kljuc and signed there. But I don't know. Nobody knows

17 what it is. But certainly, Ms. Korner's conclusion is not the obvious

18 one.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for the observation, Mr. Ackerman. In

20 reality, on the face of it this document shows that at the top -- it

21 purports to be a Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous

22 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff, Banja Luka. Then in the bottom it says

23 "Crisis Staff Kljuc Municipality, signed and stamped." Now, the stamp as

24 such, I don't know enough -- but it seems to be Kljuc. It -- the stamp

25 seems to be of Kljuc.

Page 9492

1 MR. ACKERMAN: It is.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The stamp seems to be of Kljuc. So if the

3 stamp is of Kljuc and it says "Kljuc municipality," why on earth should it

4 be headed "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous Region

5 of Krajina Crisis Staff, Banja Luka."

6 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour again I can assist --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know.

8 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour, again can we have -- I think to

9 this extent Mr. Ackerman is right, so that the actual document is not

10 forwarded but it is absolutely clear, we would submit, if you look at the

11 P227 again, item number 13, the first bits of it.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. I see what you mean.

13 MS. KORNER: What's happened is they've sent it through.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I see what you mean.

15 MS. KORNER: But I accept that that's a supposition and a comment.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I see what you mean. Okay. Thank you.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I was saying. Nothing more.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes.


20 Q. All right. Thank you. You can put that document away now,

21 Mr. Filipovic. And I think I'm going to ignore the next one I've marked

22 here.

23 Yes. Can we look please, at Exhibit P379. It comes under 9 --

24 after P912. This is a document that bears the typed signature of Colonel

25 Vukelic, the assistant commander for moral guidance of the 1st Krajina

Page 9493

1 Corps. It describes the situation -- it's headed "Political and security

2 situation in Bosnian Krajina," and describes the situation in the area of

3 Kljuc and Sanski Most. "The certain forces are controlling the situation

4 and blocking all Green Beret forces."

5 It then gives a description of other places. And then there's a

6 paragraph that begins -- and just so that we don't have any mistake --

7 "The AR Bosnian Krajina Assembly has taken all possible measures to

8 remove from important posts those persons who have failed to meet their

9 obligations." I think you'll find -- I'm sorry to interrupt. I think

10 you'll find that, Mr. Filipovic, on the last typed page before we have the

11 handwritten part, page 2.

12 "Who have failed to meet their obligations boycotted all earlier

13 mobilisations or unfairly treated the Krajina fighters, soldiers who have

14 been fulfilling their patriotic duty since the very beginning and who

15 went into battle, sacrificing their lives and their human dignity. Most

16 of the officials relieved of office are Muslims and Croats, but there are

17 also some Serbian degenerates."

18 By the 26th of May in Kljuc, had anybody been removed from

19 important posts that you were aware of? Mr. Filipovic, in Kljuc had there

20 been any removal from any of the important posts of Muslims or Croats or

21 even some Serbs described as degenerates?

22 A. I don't have the interpretation. I don't have the interpretation.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat your question.

24 Have you received the interpretation now?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear it now.

Page 9494

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I will ask you to repeat your question

2 again, please. Thank you.


4 Q. By the 26th of May, had anybody in the Kljuc area who was a Croat

5 or a Muslim or what is described as a Serb degenerate been removed from

6 any important post?

7 A. Well, on the 27th of May all Muslims and Croats were dismissed

8 from their jobs. Even what happened was that at the gate, entrance to the

9 hospital, it actually said "Prohibited for Muslims and Croats." So this

10 is what happened in Kljuc on the 27th of May. Up to then I would go into

11 my office and I left a little bit earlier, so specifically to me I was not

12 told, "Muhamed, you're fired. You no longer have to come to work." But

13 this is what happened in Kljuc on the 27th of May.

14 Q. All right. Let's just look at how that did happen. Could we

15 look, please, at P208, which is after the document 913 -- I think was

16 originally 914.

17 This is a Crisis Staff meeting of the 27th of May, 1992. And it

18 affirms the legitimacy of the decisions of the Autonomous Region Crisis

19 Staff. And then says item 3: "By the 1st of June, 1992, remove all

20 non-Serbian personnel from positions which allow independent decision

21 making and securing property."

22 And then it goes on at 15 -- paragraph 15: "Suspend Osman Avdic,

23 Zeljko Savovic, and Dzevad Kapetanovic, employees of the municipal

24 council for National Defence immediately, today, and authorise Tihomir

25 Dakic, Jovo Malbasa, and Slobodan Jurisic to find a solution to fill

Page 9495

1 the vacancies."

2 Now, those people, the names, did you know them, Osman Avdic and

3 the rest?

4 A. Yes, I knew them. Osman Avdic worked at the Secretariat for

5 National Defence. There is a mistake. It's not Zeljko Savovic. It's

6 Zeljko Bakovic. And the third person is Dzevad Kapetanovic. I knew

7 them well. They were my colleagues from work. We worked on the same

8 floor of the same building, except that they worked at the Secretariat for

9 National Defence, while I worked at the surveyors' office. They were good

10 people. Zeljko Bakovic is a Croat. Osman Avdic and Dzevad Kapetanovic

11 were Muslims. Out of the three of them, only Zeljko Bakovic is still

12 alive. Osman Avdic was killed in Biljani, and Dzevad Kapetanovic was

13 killed when Kljuc was being liberated.

14 Q. It says that they were to be suspended that day, the 27th of May.

15 Were you there at the time - you say they worked on the same floor - when

16 the suspension took place?

17 A. Well, I don't know, to tell you the truth, how much you will take

18 what I say. Everything I ignored. Everything that happened to me, I

19 didn't pay attention to it at all so to speak. So if anybody said

20 anything to me, I would just turn away. So I know that on the 27th of

21 May, everyone was banned from entering places of work, offices.

22 Q. That's what I want to understand. Did people go to work on that

23 day and then were evicted, told to leave, or were they just stopped from

24 going to work?

25 A. They came to work on the 27th of May. I don't know about what

Page 9496

1 time. And then they went out, outside, because we were second-class

2 citizens. In the Autonomous Region of Bosnia Krajina there was supposed

3 to be one nation, only the Serbs.

4 Q. And then just finally on this document in paragraph 10: "The

5 relationship of the military authorities to the civilian authorities

6 should be such that the military will execute the orders of the civilian

7 authorities while the civilian authorities will not interfere with the way

8 these orders are carried out."

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: With regard to that document, Your Honour, the

11 paragraph she just referred to, the copy I have, that paragraph has been

12 rendered in bold underlining. And I don't know if that's the case with

13 what you have.


15 MR. ACKERMAN: But --


17 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ours is just like the rest of the paragraphs.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Normal print.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine.

22 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, does Mr. Ackerman mean in the original or

23 the typed version?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Neither in the original nor in the typed.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: In the translation I have, paragraph 10 is in bold

Page 9497

1 type, underlined.


3 MR. ACKERMAN: And it's not a draft translation. It says

4 "translation," on the top it. So somehow mine is different than yours,

5 Your Honours. But I'm satisfied if yours is what you say it is.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But even in the original, in other words, the

7 Serbo-Croat version, paragraph 10 is just like every other paragraph, not

8 underlined nor in any way highlighted.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That was going to be my point, that the original

10 was not so highlighted and that the copy shouldn't be. But the copy

11 apparently isn't except the one I have.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 Yes, Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm now going to deal with the

15 actual events of the 27th of May from the report that was prepared by the

16 security services. Your Honour, I did ask whether -- I asked whether Your

17 Honours would be prepared to sit till later, but I understand not. So

18 this is probably as good a place as any.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

20 So we'll stop here. Mr. Filipovic, you have stayed with us long

21 enough for today. You will go to your hotel now and rest, and tomorrow we

22 will continue from where we've left today. And hopefully that should be

23 your last day as far as the examination-in-chief is concerned. And then

24 prepare yourself for the cross-examination. Have a nice evening.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same to you.

Page 9498

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll meet tomorrow at 2.15. Okay? I think this

2 same courtroom, if I remember well. Thank you.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

4 at 6.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

5 the 4rth day of September, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.