1 Wednesday, 16 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, please proceed to call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. And this is the

7 case number, IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances -- wait.

9 Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. I can

11 hear you and understand you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you. You may sit down.

13 Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Julian Nicholls with

15 Denise Gustin.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls, and good afternoon to you

17 both.

18 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm John Ackerman. I'm here with

20 Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic. May I expand my remarks?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. And good afternoon to you first.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Your Honour, I would like first of all to -- we may finish today.

24 And the reason I'm saying that -- what I'm going to say is because of

25 that. I will probably file a motion tomorrow which might require a

1 sitting sometime next week.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's no problem.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: And so I just wanted to make you and the Prosecutor

4 aware of that.

5 And in addition, I would ask again your indulgence while I go

6 forth and work on Prijedor and leave Mr. Trbojevic in charge of matters

7 here.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's no problem. May we have an indication what

9 kind of motion we're talking about?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't want to say very much about it

11 because I don't want to make any mistakes, but it will have to do with a

12 number of things, including Rule 68, the Prijedor case, and the military

13 documents. It refers to all three of those matters, I think. It's in its

14 very early rough draft stages and ...

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll come to it when it's been filed.

16 So I think we can proceed. Usher -- where's the usher?

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I have one very brief preliminary matter.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: The motion on behalf of Jonathan Randal for release

20 of transcript --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I have been informed about it by my ALO, but

22 it has not yet arrived on my desk.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, just to say we have no objection and --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You have no objection.

25 Yes, Mr. Ackerman has left anyway. I would imagine that he has no

1 objection.

2 Mr. Trbojevic, this is a motion by Mr. Jonathan Randal to have a

3 copy of the transcripts which relate to his case, if I may say so. Do you

4 have any objections?

5 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours, that

6 Mr. Ackerman insisted on the cross-examination of Mr. Randal; if such a

7 ruling is made, that he be brought here to testify.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's -- that's -- I don't think you understood me

9 or I -- what I said was not translated properly. I don't know; either of

10 the two.

11 You know that last week we discussed what's happened in the

12 appeal, and we had a debate here which lasted for hours. What Mr. Randal

13 wants is a copy of the transcript of the debate in this chamber of last

14 week, so that he can come to no -- he will be made aware of what was said

15 here with regard to his case. And that's because it was in private

16 session.

17 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] If you're asking me if I have any

18 objections, I have none.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So then we can actually proceed by

20 giving an oral decision here and now that the motion is granted, there

21 being no objection from either the Prosecution or the Defence. All right?

22 Granted as requested.

23 Usher, please, the witness.

24 Thank you for your cooperation, Mr. Trbojevic and Mr. Nicholls.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Ticevic. We will

2 continue and finish with --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But before we do so, may I kindly ask you to repeat

5 your solemn declaration, please. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 WITNESS: NISVET TICEVIC [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Examined by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

13 Q. Have a seat.

14 Sir, before we continue, there's one very simple point from

15 yesterday that I want to clear up so there's no ambiguity in the

16 transcript. You stated that the person who gave you orders and told you

17 what you would do each day as regards the work obligation you performed

18 after your release from the school was Ratko Marcetic, and you stated that

19 he was a sergeant that you would meet at the checkpoint every morning. He

20 was a sergeant in the military or in the police?

21 A. He was a sergeant in the Army of Republika Srpska.

22 Q. Thank you. Yesterday when we left off, we were looking at a Kljuc

23 report of the CSB, signed by Chief Vinko Kondic, in which he explained

24 that he and the police were not filing reports against known perpetrators

25 of serious crimes against the Muslim population, including murders,

1 because it would not be advisable due to the current political situation

2 and pressure from the international community. Do you remember us talking

3 about that?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... 1045.

6 You'd also just finished telling us about the investigation, such

7 as it was, into the murder which you witnessed, or you were present for,

8 of Ibrahim Kumalic and Draganovic. My question is, having read to you

9 this section of the report: In your case, the crime which you witnessed,

10 did you feel as though there was any serious investigation being made into

11 those two murders?

12 A. No. There was no serious investigation. Two military policemen

13 came, they took notes, and left. No official person was present, apart

14 from them.

15 Q. And just if you know - I don't know whether you do or not - was

16 there ever a prosecution in that case, to your knowledge, of those men who

17 you were warned not to identify?

18 A. No, there was no investigation, and they're living in freedom to

19 this day, wherever they're living.

20 Q. And if I'm correct, it was shortly after these murders which took

21 place at the house you were living at that you decided to leave Kljuc; is

22 that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Now I'm going to ask you some questions about the actual process

25 of leaving Kljuc at that time for you and for other people who were trying

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1 to get out.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: If the witness could please see P989.

3 Q. We've looked at this exhibit before. It's the book of minutes

4 from the Kljuc Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff. And I'll ask you to look

5 at the minutes from the 9th of June session, 1992, which began on page 14

6 of the English translation, and if I have it right, on the page with the

7 ERN 00573870 in the B/C/S original.

8 Have you found that section, sir? It's headed "Minutes from the

9 Kljuc SO Crisis Staff session, 9th of June, 1992," and the first heading

10 is "Agenda."

11 A. [No audible response]

12 Q. Could you answer verbally for the record, please. You've shaken

13 your head to indicate yes, but could you answer whether you've found that

14 section.

15 A. Yes, I've found it.

16 Q. Now, if we look under "Agenda," item 3 on the agenda at this Kljuc

17 Crisis Staff session is "Report from the session of the Banja Luka

18 Regional Crisis Staff." And if you turn the page, we can see item 3,

19 where Veljko Kondic, it states: "Informed the Crisis Staff of the

20 conclusions of the Regional Crisis Staff session and remarked on the most

21 important issues." On the next page, if you could just read down what

22 those important issues were. And you can stop at -- just above where it

23 says that, "Muslim and Croatian personnel should be removed from the most

24 responsible posts in the army and police ranks." Just read down to that

25 section.

1 And do you see where, just above that section, one of the

2 important issues which the Kljuc Crisis Staff was being briefed on was

3 that the question of population resettlement should be solved and that an

4 agency, a team of men, should be formed to work on this issue?

5 Have you found that? It's the third item under item 3.

6 A. Item 3, Kondic Veljko; is that correct what you're referring to?

7 Q. Yes. And if you look below there, the third bulleted point

8 concerns the question of population resettlement.

9 A. Yes. I've found it.

10 Q. Now, just confirm in the original before you, does that point

11 state that: "The question of population resettlement should be solved and

12 that an agency (a team of men) should be formed to work on this issue"?

13 A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, what page does the witness have in front of

15 him? [Microphone not activated] Just give me the last four numbers.

16 THE USHER: 871.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it, but I didn't hear the

18 question.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Okay. So Mr. Nicholls,

20 please repeat your question.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Please turn on the microphone.

22 MR. NICHOLLS:

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ticevic, I'd just like you to confirm if it's

24 accurate that in the original it states that: "The question of population

25 resettlement should be solved and that an agency (a team of men) should be

1 formed to work on this issue."

2 A. Yes, that's what it says.

3 Q. Okay. That's the 9th of June.

4 MR. NICHOLLS: And if the witness could now please be shown P240

5 before I ask him the question.

6 Sorry, this was not on the list, Your Honours, but I've passed it

7 out. It was a Banja Luka exhibit.

8 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trbojevic.

10 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the following: Could

11 the Prosecutor put his question related to what is stated in these

12 minutes. The question to the witness was whether that is stated in the

13 minutes, but he didn't go on to put a question to the witness about those

14 minutes.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm planning to do that, Your Honours. I think

16 it's clearer if these two exhibits are read together, and then I'll ask

17 him my question.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Otherwise, I'll just ask the question twice.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Well, I'll come to your objection after

21 seeing what this other document is all about and then seeing what the

22 question is.

23 Yes, P240. Put the English version on the ELMO, please, and the

24 B/C/S you hand to the witness.

25 MR. NICHOLLS:

1 Q. Now, this is a document from the Banja Luka Security Services

2 Centre, dated the 12th of June, 1992, and it's to the chiefs of all public

3 security stations. It refers to: "The Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

4 Region of Krajina has adopted the following decision." And that decision

5 was dated June 10th, 1992. So this -- Mr. Ticevic, this decision is being

6 forwarded.

7 The decision of the Crisis Staff -- under section 1, 10th of

8 June, states: "Only children, women, and old people may voluntarily, that

9 is, of their own free will, leave the Autonomous Region of Krajina."

10 Is that stated under Roman numeral I in your B/C/S original?

11 A. Yes, it is stated.

12 Q. And then at the very end, the last paragraph of this document, it

13 states: "You are to brief the staff of your public security station about

14 this decision and arrange for the required cooperation with the

15 humanitarian organisations in your area for its implementation." Signed,

16 Stojan Zupljanin.

17 My question is: You stated yesterday that, in the beginning, only

18 women and children and the elderly were allowed to leave, or you stated

19 that men of military age, rather, were not allowed to leave. You've seen

20 these documents from the 9th, 10th, and 12th of June referring to that

21 issue, prohibiting men of military age from leaving the Autonomous Region

22 of Krajina. You, however, were able to leave in September. If you know,

23 when were men of military age able to begin to freely leave Kljuc

24 municipality between June and September?

25 A. Yes, I do know. At first it was women, children, the sick, the

1 disabled who left. I left at the end of September because, according to

2 the assessment of the JNA, actually a major who was my commander in the

3 barracks, he proclaimed me mentally immature; however, many men who were

4 able-bodied never left, because those remained to do work obligations and

5 we found them there when we returned.

6 Q. Okay. I'll move on. When you did leave in September, did you

7 have a house and any property in Kljuc at that time? You said that you

8 left with nothing yesterday, but I'm wondering if you had any property

9 that you left behind.

10 A. Yes. I had a house together with my brother in Pudin Han.

11 Q. It was actually your brother's house, wasn't it?

12 A. The house was my brother's, but I lived in it, and he's living in

13 Switzerland, so we lived there.

14 Q. Now, did you have to sign any documents in order to be able to

15 leave Kljuc in September; any official documents?

16 A. Yes, we did. First of all, meet all our debts towards Republika

17 Srpska, electricity and things like that. After that, we all had to sign

18 a document leaving all our mobile and immobile property voluntarily to

19 Republika Srpska.

20 Q. And just to be clear, you said "we." Did you personally have to

21 sign all of these documents?

22 A. Yes. I signed one too.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Could the witness be shown P1007, please.

24 Q. And what you're being shown is entitled "Kljuc Municipal Assembly

25 War Presidency Decision," which was adopted at a meeting held on the 30th

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1 of July, 1992. It's the decision on the criteria for the possibility to

2 move out of the territory of Kljuc municipality.

3 Could you just read to yourself Article 1 and tell me when you've

4 read that.

5 A. Yes. I've read it.

6 Q. And this Article 1 states that one of the conditions stipulated by

7 the decision was, to paraphrase, people who wish to leave are allowed to

8 move out voluntarily and permanently from the territory of Kljuc

9 municipality. Do you have to sign that you were moving out voluntarily

10 and also permanently?

11 A. Yes, we did have to sign that. But we also had to sign that we

12 were going to third countries, that we would not become members of the

13 army.

14 Q. Thank you. And now could you please just read to yourself the

15 next article, Article 2. And this Article concerns what happens to

16 immovable property, real estate, real property, to persons who are

17 choosing to permanently leave the municipality of Kljuc. And it states

18 that: "The exchange of immovable property must be carried out before or

19 at the latest within three months of the departure or Kljuc municipality

20 shall seize the property in question." That's an exchange with somebody

21 from outside the municipality.

22 Or 2: "Persons who leave their immovable property at the disposal

23 of Kljuc municipality shall also be allowed to leave the territory of

24 Kljuc municipality permanently."

25 Finally: "The sale of immovable property is not allowed."

1 My question is, once you've read that: Which option occurred with

2 your brother's house? Did he leave it to the municipality? Did he

3 exchange it with a family that was trying to come to Kljuc? Or did he

4 just abandon it?

5 A. My brother was not there, as I have said. He's been living in

6 Switzerland for a long time. But I had to sign that I was leaving the

7 house and everything in it.

8 Q. Do you remember - if you don't remember, that's fine - do you

9 remember who you signed that you were leaving the house to? Who took

10 possession of the house when you left?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Those are two questions, Mr. Nicholls. Let's go

12 through them one after the other, please.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

14 Q. Well, when you left and you signed that document, did you -- first

15 of all, did you sign a document turning over the house, leaving the house

16 that your brother owned?

17 A. I did sign a document in Tihomir Dakic's office, a highly-ranked

18 politician of the Serbian Krajina.

19 Q. And within -- if it's -- did it state within the document you

20 signed who was now the legal owner of the house once you had signed that

21 document?

22 A. No. But they gave us a sort of ultimatum. The deadline was three

23 months for an exchange, and it was impossible to do it in that time, so I

24 signed something like this: I, my name, my father's name, am leaving all

25 my immovable property to Republika Srpska.

1 Q. Now, can you briefly tell the Court what -- how you physically

2 left. On the day you left, where did you go? Did you board a bus or a

3 train? How did you actually physically come to leave the municipality,

4 and who transported you out, if it was any organisation?

5 A. I wish to say that I don't wish to name the person who helped me,

6 for his own safety. I travelled by bus, like other people. And there

7 were a lot of people inside. It was crammed full. It was stuffy. But

8 this friend of mine - again he was a highly-ranked officer - said to a

9 civilian policeman that I had to reach my destination and that nothing

10 could be allowed to happen to me.

11 Q. Now, is that one bus -- you were obviously on a bus, but was that

12 bus part of a convoy of buses, or was it a bus -- a single bus that was

13 leaving?

14 A. There were about 14 buses, something like that, and several trucks

15 with trailers.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

18 [Microphone not activated] Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.

19 MR. NICHOLLS:

20 Q. Did you personally see, before you left, any other convoys like

21 this, of buses taking civilians out of Kljuc, permanently leaving Kljuc

22 municipality?

23 A. Yes. There were several convoys that left before I did.

24 Q. And when people like yourself boarded these convoys to leave, was

25 there any set procedure or any names checked off? Were there any final

1 forms to fill out, or did you just -- how did you know when to appear and

2 which bus you were going to get on, and on what day you were going to

3 leave?

4 A. We were informed that at 9.00 - I don't remember the date - should

5 be in front of the youth centre in Kljuc. And once we got there and as we

6 boarded the buses, we left behind more valuable things, and the names were

7 called out from a list of people who had paid, and we boarded the buses

8 one by one.

9 Q. Did you have to, in addition to these official forms and paying

10 off all bills and debts, did you have to pay any bribes to be allowed onto

11 this convoy? Did you have to pay any individuals? Put it that way.

12 A. I personally did not, but some people did. They would leave their

13 tractors behind or a cow or something to somebody who could help them take

14 care of their paperwork.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Could the witness be shown P1059, please.

17 Q. Sir, you looked at this document yesterday as well. This is a

18 16th of February, 1993 report to the command of the 1st Krajina Corps

19 Banja Luka from Colonel Gojko Vujnovic. Sorry, it's authored by Assistant

20 Commander for Civilian Affairs Slobodan Dakic. And I'll ask you to find

21 the section entitled "Departure of the Muslims in the period from May 1992

22 to 31st of January, 1993," which is probably on page 4 of the original.

23 A. Yes. Yes, I've found it.

24 Q. You stated in your statement to the OTP that by the time you left,

25 you estimated that about 90 per cent of the non-Serbs had left Kljuc,

1 either forcibly or under duress. I'd like you to just look at the figures

2 contained in this report to the 1st Krajina Corps. "Out of 4.200 residents

3 of the Sanica local commune, 4.154 people left and 46 remained. Most of

4 those who stayed are sickly elderly people with low incomes."

5 Next: "Out of 3.649 residents of the Velagici local commune,

6 3.429 left and about 220 remained. Lists indicate that for those

7 remaining --" it's not clear from the translation, that -- destinations,

8 it appears, for those remaining families, people, have already been

9 drafted.

10 And it continues, if you read down through these yourself, to the

11 Kljuc local commune: Out of 4.516 residents, only 884 remained.

12 Do you agree with those figures, that those are accurate?

13 A. Yes, I agree.

14 Q. If you know, what percentage of the population of Pudin Han

15 remained by the time you left in September?

16 A. I think that about 10 per cent stayed. And it states also here in

17 the documents that low income or poorer people stayed behind, those who

18 could not meet their outstanding debts and pay for the trip.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

21 That means that the Prosecution has finished its questioning of

22 you. Now it's the turn of the Defence to cross-examine you, and you will

23 be cross-examined by the co-counsel for Radoslav Brdjanin, Mr. Milan

24 Trbojevic.

25 As I explained to you yesterday, your duty in answering Mr.

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1 Trbojevic is exactly the same as when you were answering questions from

2 the Prosecution. You have a duty and responsibility to answer each and

3 every question truthfully and accurately unless we tell you not to answer

4 it.

5 Mr. Trbojevic.

6 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ticevic, I will have to go back to the

9 beginning now, so could you please pay attention because we will be

10 starting from the very beginning of your testimony.

11 In the statement you provided to the Prosecution and in the course

12 of the examination here in the courtroom, you mentioned several uniforms.

13 Yesterday you said, for example, that you saw people in military uniforms

14 and in police uniforms come out of the Tamic van, truck. They were also

15 wearing camouflage uniforms and some had red berets. If you agree, the

16 term Tamic in Bosnia means a small truck or a small van. Isn't it a bit

17 much to have four different kinds of uniforms come out of a Tamic?

18 A. Sir, I said from a Tamic -- from Tamics, which means that it

19 wasn't one of such trucks but there were several such trucks.

20 Q. Very well. It was a misunderstanding. Were there any soldiers

21 who were -- belonged to the White Eagles?

22 A. I saw them personally not then, but I saw White Eagles and also

23 Red Berets who said that they had come to separate the two sides hat were

24 quarrelling. But however, we knew who they were and what they were.

25 Q. In the statement you provided to the Prosecution, you said that

1 you heard that the Red Berets were from Pozarevac or Pancevo.

2 A. I personally know who was the commander of the Red Berets because

3 I worked in a cafe where they used to come by. It was a person called

4 Frenki Stamatovic. I'm not sure what his last name is, but Frenki was the

5 name.

6 Q. I'm not trying to dispute that. I'm just asking you whether you

7 were sure they were from those towns.

8 A. Some of them I considered as my friends before the shooting

9 started.

10 Q. So you are sure that they are from Pozarevac and Pancevo and not

11 from this area where you're from.

12 A. Some of them are from Leskovac as well.

13 Q. Thank you. You said that you were a courier, that you would bring

14 information to Mr. Omer Filipovic from Pudin Han. Did you just bring

15 information from Pudin Han, or did you also return with information from

16 Omer Filipovic to Pudin Han?

17 A. Well, it was according to need. If some relations were disrupted,

18 I would then convey the message to Omer Filipovic that they would hold out

19 until the negotiations or the talks were completed.

20 Q. You said that you had attended certain meetings that were held

21 which were headed by Mr. Filipovic.

22 A. Well, perhaps there was a mistake in interpretation but I said

23 that they were mostly gatherings in local restaurants, and we trusted this

24 man. They were not formal meetings, but it was just conversation about

25 the political situation, because we felt a lot of fear.

1 Q. But you said that you had confidence in him because he was the

2 legally elected president.

3 A. Yes. We gave him our votes, and I did have confidence in him.

4 Q. I'm not disputing whether you should have had confidence in him or

5 not. I'm just trying to establish his post.

6 A. Mr. Filipovic was the number one person in Kljuc. How shall I put

7 it? He was the president of the Muslim Bosniak organisation, and

8 Mr. Egrlic was the president of the SDA. However, from the top of the

9 state, I think it came down from up above that Mr. Omer Filipovic should

10 be the one to represent our side, to represent the Bosniak people.

11 Q. Could you please tell me, those meetings where you had those

12 confidential conversations, were they attended by Mr. Asim Egrlic, Amir

13 Avdic, Esad Bender, Ismet Muratagic, Aziz Gromlic?

14 A. I said that these were not meetings with an agenda, they were

15 informal meetings, and I never saw all of those people together at one

16 time.

17 Q. You never saw Omer Filipovic and Asim Egrlic together.

18 A. Yes, I did, but not at the meetings.

19 Q. Did you know that Asim Egrlic travelled to Zagreb?

20 A. No.

21 Q. He said that he went over there to take some money which was to be

22 used to obtain weapons.

23 A. I said that money was sent in order to help families. I had

24 family there and I sent money there. Those in Kljuc looked for any kind

25 of document in order to accuse those people and to create propaganda and

1 in order to cause a conflict.

2 Q. But some weapons did come.

3 A. Well, this is not something that I know. There is a person who

4 has four sons in Switzerland and who was building a house before the war

5 and he used to receive this money from Switzerland through some people.

6 This person was also taken to the camp and accused of purchasing weapons.

7 Q. Did you see an automatic rifle, which was quite unusual for

8 Bosnia, in the possession of Mr. Filipovic?

9 A. Mr. Filipovic was not a person with weapons. He was unarmed.

10 Q. Could you please now remember for us the first, let's say, drastic

11 events. As far as I understood from your testimony, on the 26th of May,

12 you were in Pudin Han when shots were fired at a truck and a bus.

13 A. I don't know if that's the correct date, but yes, I was there.

14 Q. In the statement that you provided to the Prosecution, you said

15 that --

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, just for the record, I think yesterday he

17 said 27th of May was the date I put to him. So I don't know if it's a

18 translation or --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Agius, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I quite remember vividly that yesterday he did

22 say 27th of May and not 26th.

23 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not insisting on the date.

24 No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, then.

1 And your question was --

2 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] My question was --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You had just started stating, "In the statement that

4 you provided to the Prosecution you said that --" and then you were going

5 to say something.

6 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution, you said that there were

8 from 200 to 300 people on both sides of the road. Yesterday you said

9 perhaps there were even 400. I am asking you: Did any of those people

10 whom I mentioned a little while ago for whom you said that you knew them

11 but who did not attend these meetings, did any of those people -- were any

12 of those people present at the time; Bender, Avdic, Egrlic?

13 A. I know that it was on the 27th. You said it was the 26th. That's

14 why I said I don't know.

15 Number two, none of them was present. I provided a rough estimate

16 the first time, 300, but I did say that there were women and children

17 there, and they were also afraid, so I included them as well.

18 Q. I just wanted to check whether any of them was present. Of course

19 it's not possible to know the exact number, and I'm not trying to dispute

20 that or precisely establish the number of people there.

21 You told us that on the 27th of May a meeting was held between

22 Vinko Kondic and Omer Filipovic and that you attended this meeting. The

23 meeting was in Pudin Han, and that that was when Kondic issued an

24 ultimatum for weapons to be handed over.

25 A. Well, maybe it was a mistake in the translation, but this meeting

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1 was held on the 28th.

2 Q. Again, the date is not that important, but was that meeting held?

3 A. Yes, the meeting was held.

4 Q. Does that meeting have anything to do with the death of the police

5 commander Stojakovic and the wounding of the two police officers?

6 A. Yes. The meeting does have something to do with that. They

7 wanted those who committed that to be handed over.

8 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

9 Prosecution Exhibit --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the number.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which number, Mr. Trbojevic? Exhibit number ...?

12 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] P921.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You saw this document before.

16 A. I saw it, but I didn't read it. I would like to read the document

17 again.

18 Q. Yes. Please go ahead.

19 A. You can continue.

20 Q. The Crisis Staff, in the form of an order, even though it's wrong,

21 but it says under point 1: "Calling all citizens who own illegally

22 acquired weapons to hand them over..." and so on. It says "citizens." It

23 does not state their nationality; isn't that right? Their ethnicity.

24 A. It does say that, but it related to non-Serbs.

25 Q. In item 2, it says: "Members of the Muslim nationality are

1 ordered from the Ramici and Krasulje areas to hand over those responsible

2 for yesterday's crime against the deputy commander of the police station."

3 A. Yes, that's what it says.

4 Q. So the Muslim population here is explicitly being asked to hand

5 over those responsible.

6 A. I would just like to state that the village of Ramici has nothing

7 to do with that incident. There was only -- they were only looking for a

8 reason to attack that village.

9 Q. Item 3 states: "The body is being asked for"; isn't that right?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Item 4 states that "Citizens of Muslim nationality from the Egrlic

12 and Pudin Han areas are asked to hand over those responsible for the

13 attack on unarmed soldiers who were in an organised transport from Knin to

14 Banja Luka."

15 A. Those soldiers were not unarmed in that convoy.

16 Q. So something is being asked for in those three paragraphs from

17 Muslim -- citizens of Muslim ethnicity.

18 A. Could you, sir, please look at the deadline for handing over --

19 for the citizens in all of those 15 local communities; two hours.

20 Q. They're indicated or termed under a general term "citizens."

21 A. I said that this pertains to non-Serbs.

22 Q. Since you were present there, could you please tell us how it came

23 about that there was this shooting at the police officers.

24 A. I wasn't present when there was shooting, when shots were fired at

25 the police officers but at the convoy.

1 Q. Do you know how those soldiers were arrested in the convoy?

2 A. No, I don't know. There were no soldiers in the convoy.

3 Q. Those in the Red Berets [as interpreted].

4 A. That's not the convoy. You are confusing those two things. The

5 convoy was in Pudin Han and Crljeni, 20 kilometres away.

6 Q. The soldiers were arrested in Crljeni? They were coming back from

7 the front. Seven of them.

8 A. I note that Crljeni are completely different, in a completely

9 opposite side from my village. They are about 10 or 15 kilometres away

10 from Kljuc.

11 Q. I was asking you if you know.

12 A. I said that I don't know.

13 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in line 24, Red

14 Berets are mentioned in my question but no mention of Red Berets was made.

15 I had said the name of the village Crljeni. Just the first two letters

16 are similar, but those two terms are completely different.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trbojevic. I remember you mentioning Red

20 Berets. Does the witness wish to change his answer? Because presumably

21 he heard what you said.

22 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We understood each other. It

23 didn't affect his answer. I'm just pointing out the mistake in the

24 interpretation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... so. So next

1 question, please.

2 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you know where those soldiers were arrested near Crljeni?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. Can we agree that this was on the road which is in that area

6 called Put Avnoj, Avnoj Road?

7 A. I made an oath here that I will speak only about what I saw and

8 heard, not about -- no, not what I heard about.

9 Q. Did you hear that explosives were placed on the road?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Do you know by whom?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. These activities, these incidents, had they been planned within

14 the framework of the meeting that you referred to?

15 A. During the shooting in my village, nothing was planned. There was

16 general confusion, so that if somebody did anything, he did it on his own

17 initiative to protect his own life and that of his family.

18 Q. After that, you said that artillery opened fire on the civilians

19 because the men had left towards Bihac.

20 A. When the artillery started operating, the men still hadn't left.

21 Q. Do you know the purpose of the withdrawal of those men towards

22 Bihac?

23 A. Yes, I do. Because I would have been one of them if I had

24 succeeded. We didn't have a chance, so 90, 95 per cent of those men

25 wouldn't have survived.

1 Q. In view of the fact that the women and children stayed behind,

2 regardless, they were ready for it.

3 Was there a plan to link up with the forces in the Bihac region

4 and come back?

5 A. Yes. Normally such a plan existed. Whether they would link up

6 then or later on, when the shooting started, in any event the plan was to

7 save lives.

8 Q. Yesterday you said that the ultimatum for the surrender of weapons

9 was actually just an excuse to justify the attack because the demand was

10 that in a few hours several thousand people should be disarmed.

11 A. Not in a few hours, in two hours.

12 Q. And then you went on to say that there were 400 to 500 pieces of

13 weaponry.

14 A. Yes, that's what I said.

15 Q. 400 to 500 is not several thousand, is it?

16 A. What are you implying?

17 Q. What I am saying is that there's no reason why several hundred

18 people cannot be disarmed in a couple of hours.

19 A. Yes, there is a reason; because they were spread out. They were

20 -- there was general confusion. I mentioned that there were ten villages

21 and many hamlets that had all rallied in that one area.

22 Q. In the statement you made to the Prosecution on page 10, you said

23 that you had no property and that you easily obtained permission to leave.

24 A. I said what I said now. Maybe there's a mistake in the

25 translation. I was living with Mr. Ibrahim Draganovic because of their

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1 sickness, but otherwise I was living in Pudin Han, in my brother's house.

2 Q. Can we agree that the law prescribes how immovable property can be

3 transferred to someone else?

4 A. Yes, in normal circumstances. But in that republic, there was no

5 rule of law.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Just a question, Your Honour. My colleague stated

8 that on page 10 of the statement, Mr. Ticevic stated that it was easy to

9 leave, or that you easily obtained permission to leave. Does he mean that

10 that is actually contained in the statement or that that is his

11 interpretation of it? Because I don't see in the statement that was

12 signed that he said --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, which statement?

14 MR. NICHOLLS: I presume we're talking about the statement of 1st

15 October, 2001.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let's hear Mr. Trbojevic say, because he

17 definitely knows more than you which statement he was referring to.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Trbojevic, which one, please?

20 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] On page 10.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But which statement? What's the date of the

22 statement?

23 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] The statement of the 1st of

24 October, 2001.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Page 10, the paragraph before the last,

1 it says that --

2 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] The one but last.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: "I had no property to sign over but I had to have a

4 certificate from the military that I was not an army conscript. I had to

5 pay 1.400 German marks to Lieutenant Marjanovic. 400 marks went to

6 Marjanovic personally. On the convoy that I was on, there were 20 buses

7 and several trucks. I would estimate that there were over 1.000 non-Serbs

8 who left when I did. I went to Travnik and joined ..." et cetera. He

9 doesn't actually say that he did not --

10 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] It doesn't say "easily."

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So if it was, as Mr. Nicholls suggested, that you

12 were drawing conclusions, you have every right to draw that conclusion. I

13 probably would have drawn that conclusion too.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: I just wanted to make that clear to Your Honours

15 that it was a conclusion, not a statement from the witness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. So your question now to -- I think he

17 answered.

18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] It's not stated.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. He answered.

20 All right. So go ahead, Mr. Nicholls -- Mr. Trbojevic. I don't

21 want to listen to -- Mr. Trbojevic.

22 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Could the witness be shown Exhibit P1007, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: He saw this document a few minutes ago.

25 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 Q. Do you remember seeing this document, the decision on criteria?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. The decision contains several rules, shall we call them. I'd like

4 you to look only at the preamble, where it says that, "The War Presidency

5 of the Kljuc municipality, at a session held on the 30th of July, 1992

6 adopted the following decision ..." Do you agree with me that the War

7 Presidency is not referring to any particular law?

8 A. A decision on criteria required in order to move out. That is

9 what it says, but the resettlement was by force.

10 Q. I'm saying that it would have been normal for the Crisis Staff to

11 have said, "Pursuant to Article so and so of law so and so," whereas you

12 don't find that here.

13 A. I'm saying, and I say again, that there were no rules or laws.

14 They made them as suited them best.

15 Q. As we are not allowed to enter into any polemics, I will not

16 respond to that comment.

17 When talking about this property, I forgot to mention that in your

18 statement you said that you paid to Lieutenant Marjanovic a certain sum of

19 money while you were collecting documents for moving. And a moment ago

20 you said that you paid something to Tihomir Dakic.

21 A. I said that I signed a statement leaving my property for Tihomir

22 Dakic. I had originally wanted to protect Mr. Marjanovic, who assisted

23 me, but you know now and I said that the statement that I signed was for

24 Tihomir Dakic.

25 Q. And you said that Tihomir Dakic was a high official where?

1 A. In Kljuc municipality. That is, the Serbian municipality of

2 Kljuc.

3 Q. You told us that you were under work duty.

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And that this work obligation was assigned to you by someone. I

6 think you used the term "sergeant."

7 A. It was Bosko Lukic. In my opinion, he was TO commander. And it

8 was implemented by Ratko Marcetic, who was a corporal at the checkpoint.

9 Q. Did anyone issue a written document about that work obligation?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you know that, according to the law on people's defence, it

12 was envisaged which body, under which conditions, in which way war

13 obligations should be assigned?

14 A. We didn't know anything. We didn't have weapons. And we had to

15 do what they told us.

16 Q. Tell me, please: When you said that in August you saw three men

17 entering Draganovic -- the Draganovic house, you said that this was around

18 midnight.

19 A. I can't remember exactly when it was. I know it was dark.

20 Q. Will you tell me how you saw them and recognised them in the

21 darkness.

22 A. Because this was just across the road from where I was sleeping,

23 and the road was lit.

24 Q. And you were able to recognise them going into that house in the

25 dark?

1 A. I can tell you all the men who were at the checkpoint, and I said

2 that in the evening we would look through the window to watch what people

3 were doing. The house in which the killing occurred is 20 to 30 metres

4 away from the house in which I was sleeping.

5 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

6 Honour. Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You see, I am bit by bit learning your language too.

8 I know when you are finished before I get the translation, the

9 interpretation. So I thank you, Mr. Trbojevic.

10 Mr. Nicholls, is there any re-examination?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: Nothing.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Ticevic, that brings us to the end of your

14 testimony in this case. I wish to thank you on behalf of the Tribunal and

15 the two Judges, and also on behalf of the Prosecution and the Defence for

16 having come over here, accepted to give evidence. You will now be

17 escorted out of this courtroom by the usher, and the other officers of

18 this Tribunal will take care of you and assist you in your return to your

19 country. I thank you once more. You may now leave the courtroom.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to thank you too, Your

21 Honours.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

24 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, just before the next witness comes in,

25 I've received a communique from upstairs, and we'd request that Mr.

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1 Ackerman, if he can, tomorrow orally raise his motions rather than waiting

2 to file a release, to give us an idea of what these contain, because if

3 there is going to be any delay in the start of the next witnesses and the

4 next time we're sitting to hear evidence, we need to know it right now, as

5 soon as possible, if we're going to have to make decisions about who comes

6 and when they come.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Chuqing, Madam Registrar, could we have the

8 extract of this part communicated to Mr. Ackerman as quickly as possible.

9 In any case, I will be here tomorrow -- we will be here tomorrow. This is

10 why I asked him too. And more or less there is an indication what he may

11 be after, but -- anyway, we'll see. I don't see a reason why -- or at

12 least, I did not catch that in what he was saying that should obstruct the

13 bringing forward of the first witness, at least. But anyway --

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Just if we can resolve that tomorrow, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And what I would suggest is that when communicating

16 this to Mr. Ackerman, we also indicate -- we also ask of him to indicate

17 to us without delay whether the motion he is contemplating essentially

18 means -- essentially means delaying the bringing over of the first

19 witness. So there at least you know where you stand. In any case, we

20 still have a good week and a half, if not almost two weeks.

21 All right. Next witness is not -- is he protected? Let me --

22 because this --

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: He's Sanski Most and I need to check. He's not. We

25 just need to make sure that he's not, because I wouldn't like to make such

1 a mistake. Have you checked?

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I said no.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. According to my records, he is -- he is not a

4 protected witness, but -- yes, all right. I just wanted to make sure.

5 Okay. Bring him over, please. Bring him in.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: The Prosecution calls Jakov Maric.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Maric.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You're here to give evidence in this case. And

10 before you do so, the Rules require me to ask you to make a solemn

11 declaration that in the course of your testimony, you will be speaking the

12 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. In other words, you

13 will be making a solemn declaration which is the equivalent of an oath.

14 The text of the solemn declaration is contained on a piece of

15 paper that the usher is going to give you, to hand over to you. And may I

16 now kindly ask you to read that declaration allowed, and that will be your

17 solemn undertaking to this Tribunal that you will be speaking the truth.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 WITNESS: JAKOV MARIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

23 And let mow now explain to you a little bit what's going to

24 happen. You are in a courtroom. That, you have understood. And you are

25 giving evidence in a trial that has been instituted and that has been

1 going on for about ten months already against Radoslav Brdjanin. The

2 procedure that will be followed is a very simple one: To your right, you

3 see a lady standing; that is counsel for the Prosecution. Her name is Ms.

4 Sutherland. I suppose you have already met before today. And she will be

5 conducting the -- what we call the examination-in-chief. It's a series of

6 questions on the basis of which the Prosecution tries to build its case.

7 When the Prosecution finishes with the examination-in-chief, or

8 direct examination, then it will be the turn of the Defence counsel to

9 cross-examine you, to put a series of questions to you. Now, this is a

10 right that the accused has, and it is a fundamental right. So the

11 consequence of this is a very simple one; that you have a duty to answer

12 all questions irrespective of whether they are coming -- irrespective of

13 whether they are being put to you by the Prosecution or by the Defence.

14 You have no right to distinguish between them. You have a duty to answer

15 in as complete a manner as possible and to answer in a way that you will

16 be saying the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 And with that, I leave you in the hands of Ms. Sutherland, who

18 will start with her first question.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

21 Q. Mr. Maric, can you please state your full name.

22 A. Jakov Maric.

23 Q. You were born on the 1st of August, 1954?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. You were born in Sasina in the Sanski Most municipality?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Your father's name is Ivo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is your ethnicity?

5 A. Catholic.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ivo, in the Catholic religion, is the patron

7 saint of lawyers. Supposedly he's the only lawyer who made it to

8 saint-hood.

9 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND:

11 Q. Are you a Croat?

12 A. A citizen of Bosnia.

13 Q. You grew up in Sasina. And after completing secondary school, you

14 worked in Zagreb until 1981.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. From 1982 to 1984, you were a member of the reserve police?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You lived abroad between 1984 and 1988.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in 1988, you returned to Bosnia and built a house in Sasina.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You set up a grocery store on the ground floor of your house and

23 ran that business until the 29th of June, 1992.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You're married and you have two children.

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. I want to deal now with the statements that you've provided to

3 authorities. You were interviewed on the 8th of December, 1998 by the

4 Bosnian authorities; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You were subsequently interviewed by members of the Office of the

7 Prosecutor on the 11th of March, 2000. Do you recall that interview?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. And you were visited on the 2nd of June, 2001 by members of the

10 Tribunal, where you signed a Rule 92 declaration.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Besides those statements, the only other statement that you

13 provided to authorities is a very short statement to the UNHCR in Zagreb,

14 prior to immigrating to a third country.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you arrived in The Hague the other day, you were given an

17 opportunity to review the Bosnian and ICTY statements, and upon review,

18 you wished to make some corrections.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In relation to the Bosnian statement, you stated that one of the

21 guards named in the statement was Zivko Grujicic and that you were

22 unfamiliar with this name; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, correct.

24 Q. And you didn't know how it appeared -- came to appear in the

25 statement.

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1 A. That's right.

2 Q. In relation to a person called Savo, a member of the reserve

3 police force, forcing you to write a letter to your wife in respect of

4 some money, the correction you wished to make to that was the amount of

5 money and that he had forced you to write the amount of 10.000

6 Deutschmarks and that you provided -- your wife provided him with 10.000

7 Deutschmarks; is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Also in the statement, there are a number of names of persons who

10 died as a result of the convoy from Sanski Most to the Manjaca camp on the

11 7th of July, 1992. Is it correct that you provided some of these names

12 but not all of the names that are contained in the statement?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. There was also the name of a person called Darko Matanovic

15 [phoen], otherwise known as Dado, who also died on the convoy and his name

16 was not listed on the statement.

17 A. That's true.

18 Q. You stated in relation to those names that the person who -- that

19 the person who took the statement --

20 A. I don't understand.

21 Q. -- must have been aware of the other people that had died on the

22 convoy, the names that were included in the statement.

23 A. That's right. I have the number of 26 who died; three went

24 missing, and nobody knows anything about them.

25 Q. Was it 26 who died on the convoy or 24?

1 A. 24.

2 Q. In relation to the ICTY statement provided on the 11th of March,

3 2000, you wanted to make two corrections to that statement. Where in the

4 statement it said that Sasina was the only Croat village in the Sanski

5 Most municipality, you state that this is incorrect because there are

6 other villages --

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. -- where the inhabitants are of Croat ethnicity.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Finally, the last correction that you wished to make was in

11 relation to where it states that Serb police arrested over a thousand men

12 in the village of Poljak during their religious holiday Bajram. Is it

13 correct that you don't know the specific number but that it was a large

14 number of men and not just from the village of Poljak but from all over

15 the Sanski Most municipality?

16 A. That is right.

17 Q. If we can turn now to events that occurred in the Sanski Most

18 municipality in 1992. The Judges have had an opportunity to hear a great

19 deal of evidence about the political and military developments in the

20 Sanski Most municipality, and I want to focus your testimony on your

21 places of detention and matters relating to your village.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, we will be having a break in two

23 minutes' time. I think you've just finished with the corrections --

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- section. And may I suggest to you to stop here

1 for the time being and resume immediately after the break.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 20 minutes' break.

4 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

7 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, before I continue with the witness,

9 if I can go back to the matter that Mr. Nicholls raised before we broke in

10 relation to the motion that is going to be filed by Defence tomorrow.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: The Prosecution wishes to be advised on the

13 particulars to do with that motion, and we would also like to have an oral

14 hearing on it tomorrow or Friday, when we are normally supposed to be

15 sitting in this case.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see, Ms. Sutherland. First of all, I -- don't

17 try to force my hand to force Mr. Ackerman's hand, because I can't force

18 anyone's hand in -- and when -- if and when to file a motion. That's

19 number one.

20 And strictly speaking, I was going perhaps beyond what I should in

21 trying to communicate the transcript to Mr. Ackerman and asking him to

22 give more information than I had actually asked before. I was doing that,

23 knowing that Mr. Ackerman will understand what the preoccupation of the

24 Prosecution is. But beyond that, I'm not prepared to go. I mean, I will

25 not ask Mr. Ackerman to give more information unless he's prepared to do

1 it voluntarily, willingly. I mean, it's just not done.

2 Let's see what Mr. Trbojevic has to say.

3 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we provided the part

4 of today's transcript to Mr. Ackerman at the break, and he told us that

5 tomorrow by 11.00 he will submit the motion and that he's prepared to

6 discuss it after that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll wait. We'll see what the motion will be,

8 if it's going to be filed tomorrow by 11.00, and after that, we'll take it

9 up, see if we need -- if we need to summon an urgent sitting, we will do

10 so and meet tomorrow. We had a courtroom booked in any case, so Madam

11 Registrar, I don't think that should be -- there should be any difficulty

12 at all. And if it's necessary to meet tomorrow, we'll meet tomorrow. If

13 it's necessary -- it's not necessary to meet tomorrow, and we can meet the

14 day after or next week, I don't know. Because I haven't seen this motion

15 and I haven't got the least idea what it is about, except very, very

16 generically.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. It's my instructions from Ms.

18 Korner that she would rather deal with this motion orally than in writing.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't say that I would -- we would decide it in

20 writing. I never said that.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we were to deal with it orally, Ms. Korner

22 would ask if we could sit either Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday next week,

23 if we aren't going to deal with it Thursday or Friday this week.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, Ms. Sutherland, let's do things as they are

25 normally done. I'll wait until tomorrow, when Mr. Ackerman files this

1 motion. I will have a look at it, see what -- what it is all about,

2 because, for all I know, it might be extremely important or not that

3 important. And if on the face of the document itself it seems that it may

4 require an urgent sitting, we'll sit tomorrow afternoon. So be on the

5 alert, both parties, because if it's necessary, we will sit tomorrow

6 afternoon. And if it's necessary, we will give an oral decision tomorrow

7 afternoon, tomorrow evening. So I don't see any difficulties.

8 But I can't force Mr. Ackerman's hand and say, "No, I want to know

9 beforehand what the motion is all about, what your requests are going to

10 be." I mean, I can't do that. I mean, I asked him very informally

11 earlier on in the day to give us an idea, and he did give a very generic

12 idea on very broad terms. What you can make of that, I don't know. But

13 you can come to various conclusions, actually. I mean, not necessarily

14 one or the other. All right? And we'll take it up from there.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But anyway, tomorrow morning -- by 11.00 -- if it's

17 filed at 11.00, it should be on my desk by half past 12.00 usually. And

18 then if it's necessary -- I mean, we will all be here tomorrow. And if

19 it's necessary, we will convene a -- an urgent sitting in the afternoon.

20 All right? If it's not that urgent, we will convene Friday or Monday, but

21 please do tell Ms. Korner that we've not been adopting a practice of

22 ignoring the needs of either the Defence or the Prosecution. Okay?

23 So let's go ahead. Mr. Maric.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND:

25 Q. Mr. Maric, what villages make up the Sasina local commune?

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1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you move forward a little bit, come near to the

3 microphone, please, because the interpreters can't hear you well. Thank

4 you.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND:

6 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please.

7 A. Skrljevita, Kladernica, Razboj, Gornje Selo and Dragoc.

8 Q. And approximately how many people live in these four villages?

9 A. According to the pre-war census, it was 3.236 -- 3.636.

10 Q. What is the ethnicity of these people?

11 A. Mostly Catholics.

12 Q. Do you recall the day of the takeover of power by the Serbs in

13 Sanski Most?

14 A. On the 20th of April.

15 Q. After this date, were the non-Serb population ordered to surrender

16 their weapons?

17 A. Of course. They went from village to village through Mahala,

18 Trnova, Sasina, Hrustovo, Vrhpolje, and so on.

19 Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to? Can you be more

20 specific?

21 A. The Serb police or army.

22 Q. How did you become aware that you had to surrender the weapons?

23 A. It was broadcast over the radio station.

24 Q. Did you possess a weapon?

25 A. A civilian pistol, registered with the police.

1 Q. Did you surrender that weapon?

2 A. Yes, of course.

3 Q. Was there any armed resistance in your village of Sasina?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was your freedom of movement restricted in any way after the

6 takeover?

7 A. Totally. It was completely restricted.

8 Q. Were there any demands made on the radio?

9 A. To hand over weapons and for the surrender of the villagers by

10 placing a white sheet on each house as a sign of surrender to the Serb

11 army.

12 Q. Who made these demands?

13 A. The Serbs demanded it over the Serb radio station of Sanski Most.

14 Q. Do you recall the religious holiday Bajram in 1992?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Do you recall the exact date?

17 A. Not the exact date. Maybe it was May.

18 Q. Do you know what happened on that day?

19 A. Mass arrests of non-Serb citizens.

20 Q. Where from?

21 A. From all the villages in the area of Sanski Most. Mostly Muslim

22 villages.

23 Q. Do you know where the people were taken after they were arrested?

24 A. Those who were registered as extremists by the Serb authorities

25 were taken to the police station --

1 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not get the rest of the

2 answer of the witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Maric, the interpreter had difficulty in

4 following you, and they could only understand the first part of your

5 answer. Could you answer the same question again, please.

6 The question was: Do you know where the people were taken after

7 they were arrested? And you had started saying: Those who were

8 registered as extremists by the Serb authorities were taken to the police

9 station. Then you said something else, but it was not picked up by the --

10 not picked up by the interpreters. Could you repeat it, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those registered as extremists by

12 the Serb police, according to them, were taken to the Betonirka prison and

13 other prisons in smaller schools and also to the Krings factory and to

14 some other halls.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND:

16 Q. Was the village of Sasina shelled?

17 A. A smaller area, in the area of Trnova.

18 Q. Do you recall when this happened?

19 A. In late May and early June.

20 Q. Do you know from what direction the shelling came?

21 A. It was mortar fire, so it was very difficult to determine the

22 direction. It was either from Usorci or from Sana.

23 Q. What is the ethnicity of the people that live in those two areas?

24 A. The area from where there was shelling.

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. Serb nationality. The village of Usorci and --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name of the

3 second village.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And the name of the second village -- the first one

5 was Usorci. And the second one?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dabar.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Dabar.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND:

9 Q. Mr. Maric, I would just ask you to try and keep your voice up so

10 that the interpreters can hear your answers.

11 Were you arrested?

12 A. On the 20th -- on the 20th of June at 2.30.

13 Q. You said the --

14 A. The 29th.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The 29th.

16 A. The 29th of June.

17 Q. Who arrested you?

18 A. The Serb police.

19 Q. Where were you when you were arrested?

20 A. At home.

21 Q. Do you recall the names of the people from the Serb police who

22 arrested you?

23 A. Gojko Macura, Krunic Milorad, Zdravko Papric [phoen].

24 Q. Where were you taken?

25 A. The reason was for me to just provide a brief statement, and then

1 I would be released. I was taken to Betonirka.

2 Q. Where is Betonirka?

3 A. Not far from the Sanski Most police station.

4 Q. Was a statement taken from you?

5 A. On the third day I was interrogated by the Serb authorities.

6 Q. How long were you detained in Betonirka?

7 A. From the 29th of June until the 7th of July.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can be shown Prosecution Exhibit

9 P824.1 and P824.2, please.

10 Q. Looking at Exhibit P824.1, do you recognise what's in that

11 photograph?

12 A. Yes. That's the so-called Betonirka.

13 Q. Using the pointer next to you, can you point to the room that you

14 were detained.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness points to the first

17 garage on the right of the photo.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND:

19 Q. Can you now look at the next photo, P824.2. Do you recognise

20 what's in that photograph?

21 A. That's the garage, and this is window.

22 Q. Is that the garage that you were detained in?

23 A. Yes. That's where the window was, and behind the window were two

24 pallets.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I've finished with the photographs.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Could it be any one of the other two garages?

2 Could that photo be of any of the other two garages?

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: The other photograph.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see the other two garages?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The picture is not quite sharp for

6 me on the screen.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND:

8 Q. Looking at it to your left-hand side, looking at the machine, the

9 photograph on the machine to your left.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know whether --

11 MS. SUTHERLAND:

12 Q. How do you say -- how do you say that that's the room that you

13 were detained in, as opposed to one of the two other rooms? I think

14 that's His Honour's question.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because that's the way it faces.

17 This is where the entrance was, this is where the window was, and then the

18 other garages were over here.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND:

20 Q. Mr. Maric, you said you were interrogated on the third day by the

21 Serb authorities. Did you know the name of the person who interrogated

22 you?

23 A. Yes. The person who interrogated me was called Dusko Zoric, a

24 former inspector.

25 Q. Was anyone else in the room?

1 A. Inspector Majkic was next to him, but he was doing some other

2 work. He was probably waiting for another person that he was supposed to

3 interrogate. And also the guard who had escorted me.

4 Q. Were you mistreated during your interrogation?

5 A. As was usual.

6 Q. Which is ...?

7 A. Beating, the occasional slap, rifle butt in the ribs, and so on.

8 Q. What were you questioned about?

9 A. What we were preparing, what kind of defence, what we were

10 planning to do, what did we think about the Serb authorities, do we plan

11 to remain loyal.

12 Q. Where were you interrogated?

13 A. At the police premises.

14 Q. I should have asked you this earlier: When you first arrived at

15 Betonirka, what happened when you first arrived?

16 A. We were registered. That's what they called it. They beat us.

17 Everything that we had - watches, valuables, jewellery, or a good jacket

18 or a shirt, that kind of thing - those things they took, they confiscated

19 right away.

20 Q. When you're referring to "they," do you know the names of these

21 people?

22 A. The Serb police. I know Dusan Veselinovic and Savo. I don't know

23 his last name.

24 Q. What were their occupations prior to the war?

25 A. Dusan Veselinovic worked at SIP up until the war, and then during

1 war he became a member of the police reserves. And Savo worked in the

2 mine.

3 Q. And is SIP a wood factory?

4 A. Timber industry and furniture.

5 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the guards at Betonirka?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Could you name them?

8 A. I have already mentioned two, and the rest of them were Milan

9 Marceta, called Djo Banana, a police officer, retired police officer;

10 Drago Dosen, a professional police force; Gojko Macura, professional

11 police officer; the prison warden, Drago Vujanic, former criminal

12 investigations inspector; and other guards; Radoslav Martic, a police

13 officer from SAO Krajina, and there were probably others.

14 Q. What sort of food did you receive whilst you were in Betonirka?

15 A. Terrible. Sometimes there would be leftovers from their -- from

16 the meals of the police and the army, and we would find cigarette butts

17 inside. Then they would keep that over the day for it to go bad in the

18 sun. It was summer. So that every evening the people who ate that had

19 stomach problems.

20 Q. Approximately how many people were detained in Betonirka?

21 A. There would be between 40 and 120. People were coming in every

22 evening. Others were allegedly taken for exchange or transferred to other

23 prisons or schools.

24 Q. Who were the other people that you were detained with, the names

25 of the people that were in the same room as you were?

1 A. There were many. Osman Botunic, Fajko Botunic, Osman Talic, Redzo

2 Kurbegovic, Asar, nicknamed Mlinar - I don't know his family name for sure

3 - Kale Kamic [phoen].

4 Q. What were the ethnicity of these men?

5 A. Mostly Muslim ethnicity.

6 Q. And if they weren't Muslim ethnicity, what other ethnicities?

7 A. The others were Catholics, and there were a couple of Gypsies.

8 Q. You mentioned a guard called Savo. Did he ever force you to do

9 anything?

10 A. Correct. A letter that my wife wrote to be released and to

11 protect me. In spite of all that, I ended up at Manjaca in the camp. She

12 also paid some money for this.

13 Q. It says on the transcript "a letter that my wife wrote." Did your

14 wife write it, or did you?

15 A. I didn't understand that.

16 Q. I'll repeat the question. What did Savo ask or force you to do?

17 Can you explain that?

18 A. He called me, apparently saying that we knew each other. He

19 called me in to the former offices of Betonirka, where they produced

20 concrete products. And when I got there, they beat me up, they kicked me,

21 and he asked me how much money I had at home. And thinking that that

22 would satisfy him, I said I had a couple of thousand of various foreign

23 currencies, some shillings and some Francs. And then they beat me and

24 Veselinovic pointed his pistol at my head. And then they ordered me to

25 write down a letter, saying that I would be their protege. And I had to

1 sign this, and my wife gave all the money she had for this.

2 Q. How much money were you asked to give?

3 A. They beat me. They took turns at it. And I said that there was

4 no more. "You can kill me." And then we ended up with a figure of 10.000

5 marks.

6 Q. You said that you were to be their protege. What do you mean by

7 that? What was the 10.000 Deutschmarks for?

8 A. To pretend that I had bribed them to protect me so that nothing

9 would happen to me, that nobody would hurt me, the police or anyone else.

10 Q. And did they do this?

11 A. No. I ended up at Manjaca. They took the money, but I still

12 ended up at Manjaca.

13 Q. You said that you were detained in Betonirka for nine days. After

14 that time, were you told where you would be taken?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Where was that?

17 A. Drago Vujanic came, the warden of Betonirka, and said that it is

18 much better for me to be moved to Manjaca, because we are choking in

19 Betonirka, there is no air, it was very hot, small windows, that Manjaca

20 would be best for us because it is at a high altitude, the air is fresh,

21 there is plenty of space, and we could walk around.

22 Q. We will get to Manjaca shortly. Can you tell the Court what

23 happened the night prior to leaving Betonirka for Manjaca.

24 A. The customary things; mistreatment, beatings until one could

25 hardly stand it. Many had broken ribs, hands, teeth knocked out. And

1 then in the morning a truck arrived, about 10.00, 10.30. We were loaded.

2 Again, we had to run the gauntlet before entering the truck. Who was

3 quick managed to get on quickly; who didn't, got some more beatings and

4 ended up on the ground.

5 Q. How big was this truck?

6 A. It was a truck of 6 to 7 tonnes carrying capacity.

7 Q. And how many people were put on the truck?

8 A. 65.

9 Q. Was anything said to you as you entered the truck?

10 A. Vujanic said to Dosen, who was the commander of this convoy for

11 Manjaca, "I am handing over 65 to you." And he answered, "We'll see how

12 many of them there'll be when we get to Manjaca."

13 Q. You mentioned the person Dosen. Do you mean Dosenovic?

14 A. Drago Dosenovic.

15 Q. Were you able to sit, or did you have to stand in the truck?

16 A. There wasn't room for sitting. There was very little space. We

17 all stood there, packed like sardines.

18 Q. What happened when you were all loaded onto the truck? Was

19 anything else said?

20 A. Those who managed to sit down, they choked. That is how 24 men

21 died. If someone managed to hide a little bottle of water, all larger

22 containers of water were seized from us.

23 Q. I think you may have misunderstood my question. There may have

24 been a misinterpretation. What happened when you were all boarded onto

25 the truck? Was anything said to you when you were all on the truck?

1 A. Yes. They said that once we got to Cadavci, we will let you run

2 and then we'll execute all of them.

3 Q. Did you go straight to -- did the convoy go -- the truck, I'm

4 sorry, go straight to Manjaca?

5 A. No. The truck went in front of the hall where a large number of

6 civilians were detained, 250 or 300 of them, I don't know. This was a

7 larger trailer truck. And when they loaded them, then the truck went in

8 front of the Krings factory, and there, too, there were between 150 and

9 180 men. And from there, they headed towards Manjaca in a convoy.

10 Q. If I could --

11 A. The journey lasted, from Betonirka to Manjaca, they left about

12 10.30, 11.00, and the convoy arrived in Manjaca about 7.00, 7.30 in the

13 evening.

14 Q. Just to be clear. If I understood you, you said that the truck

15 left Betonirka and then went to a hall. Which hall were you referring to?

16 A. The sports hall. The sports hall.

17 Q. And then I think you said another truck joined your truck and then

18 you made your way to Krings and then on to Manjaca; is that correct?

19 A. We were transported in a small truck of 6 to 7 tonnes, and the

20 trailer truck was waiting in front of the sports hall to load these other

21 people. And once they had been collected, then together they went onto

22 the third truck into which the people from Krings were loaded and then all

23 three went on towards Manjaca in a convoy.

24 Q. How was your truck -- was it covered or was it open?

25 A. It had a very good tarpaulin cover.

1 Q. Can you describe for the Court the conditions inside the truck and

2 your journey to Manjaca.

3 A. It is very hard to describe, very difficult. On the journey, 24

4 men died. When we reached Manjaca, we realised this. We counted them.

5 Some individuals who had a small bottle had to urinate in it in order to

6 drink their urine. Once we reached Manjaca, even the Serb police couldn't

7 understand how many people had died. And then they took Enver Burnic, a

8 former police commander until the Serb authorities had taken over control;

9 Vicko Mauzner, a former policeman, Senad Biscevic, a dentist from Sanski

10 Most. As they knew many people, to write down their names, so that the

11 people who had died could be given a dignified burial. In the meantime,

12 we were lined up and led into the Manjaca camp.

13 Q. Who escorted your truck from Betonirka at the Sanski Most police

14 station to Manjaca? You mentioned somebody that was in charge of the

15 convoy.

16 A. The commander of the convoy was Drago Dosen, a policeman, a

17 professional policeman.

18 Q. When you say Dosen, do you mean Dosenovic?

19 A. Dosenovic. Dosenovic. Escorting the convoy was the warden of the

20 prison, Drago Vujanic, a former inspector also; Brane Sobot, a retired

21 inspector; Andjelko Kajtez, a former professional policeman now retired;

22 Dusan Veselinovic, a policeman in reserve; Mirko Kravic, a reserve

23 policeman; and Rega, known as Milan -- known as Rega, who was chief of a

24 socially owned cooperative.

25 Q. I just want to go back to when you first reached Manjaca and you

1 all got off the truck and the bodies remained. You said that three people

2 had to write down the names of the people that had died on the convoy.

3 What happened to those three people?

4 A. They brought them back, I think I said. They had to identify

5 these people, and they escorted them to be given a dignified burial.

6 However, those people never reappeared. They are registered as missing.

7 Q. The Court has also heard a lot of evidence over the past months

8 about the conditions in the Manjaca camp, so I will just ask you a few

9 questions about that. Do you recall the names of any of the guards in

10 Manjaca?

11 A. Zeljko Bulatovic, known as Bula; Spaga. No one knew his name.

12 They were all Zokas, Spagas, Bulas, Omers; these are all nicknames. No

13 one wanted to introduce himself by name. The warden of the camp was

14 probably a retired Montenegrin, but no one ever discovered what his real

15 name was.

16 Q. Did you know any of these guards, or you learnt of their names in

17 the camp?

18 A. Only in the camp. I learned their names from the guards at

19 Manjaca.

20 Q. Were you mistreated while you were at Manjaca?

21 A. As usual, this was quite customary. There's no point in

22 elaborating. People hit you wherever they could. You give somebody a

23 dirty look, and you'd get beaten up. This was just normal.

24 Q. Were you registered by the ICRC at some stage?

25 A. Yes. On the 14th of July, I think it was.

1 Q. Did any delegations from Banja Luka visit the camp?

2 A. Vojo Kupresanin, I think visited the camp at the end of July, and

3 he promised -- he said the camp had to be closed, we would all go home,

4 that all that had been done had been done wrong. And for a while we

5 started believing it. In the end, what happened happened. Thirteen

6 months went by before I left that camp of theirs.

7 Q. How many people accompanied Mr. Kupresanin on his visit?

8 A. There were many of them. They came in two vehicles under police

9 escort. There were two policemen, Kupresanin and another one with us, in

10 our stable. Stables were separated. Nobody could move from one stable to

11 another. Each one of us had to sit in his place.

12 Q. How did you know his name was Kupresanin?

13 A. From television. When he took over power in Republika Srpska at

14 the Assembly or whatever it was called.

15 Q. When the delegation arrived in Manjaca --

16 A. And -- I'm sorry, he introduced himself, and we'd seen him on

17 television before that.

18 Q. How long did he stay in the camp? Do you know?

19 A. In our stable, maybe 10 minutes or 15. I couldn't tell you

20 exactly. As for the other stables, I don't know. He went from one to

21 another. There were six of them. If he spent 10 minutes in each, that

22 would make it an hour.

23 Q. How long did you stay in Manjaca for?

24 A. From the 7th of July until the 13th of December.

25 Q. Were you allowed outside the stable to get this so-called mountain

1 air?

2 A. Yes. We could walk around. If the weather was nice, we could

3 walk around two hours a day - an hour in the morning, an hour in the

4 evening - but there were a lot of us so our walks were brief.

5 Q. What were the conditions like in the stables?

6 A. Until the International Red Cross took over, impossible. We lay

7 on the ground with a little bit of hay on the floor. Below that was just

8 stone. There were pigs or sheep or cows held in these stables, it

9 depended. The water we drank was the same as for the livestock, because

10 before the war it was an agricultural combine. So the cows drank the same

11 water as we did. They probably didn't.

12 Q. You said that you stayed in Manjaca until the 13th of December.

13 Were you released at that point?

14 A. At that point, under escort of a reporter - I don't know of which

15 newspaper - they were promising us that we would go to the Croatian border

16 for an exchange, but we ended up at the Batkovici camp near Bijeljina.

17 They escorted us all the way towards the Sava River. It was a news

18 agency; I don't know which one. And the people who knew the way turned

19 right towards Prnjavor, and they started panicking. "We are not going for

20 an exchange." We thought we would end up in Sremska Mitrovica, a prison.

21 Because they said, "When winter comes, the 20 per cent of you who are more

22 extreme will be transferred to warmer parts, where it is better for you."

23 But we didn't. We ended up in Batkovici near Bijeljina.

24 Q. How long did you stay in Batkovici camp?

25 A. From the 13th of December, 1992 until the 23rd of June, 1993.

1 Q. During your time in Batkovici, did you have to undertake any

2 forced labour? And if so, what?

3 A. Agriculture is highly developed in Bijeljina. The region is known

4 as Semberija. So we had to do farming work, depending on the season. In

5 the spring, we would collect hay, then we would spread the manure or

6 fertiliser for the wheat in the autumn, and then there would be ploughing,

7 who knew how to drive a tractor. The mechanics would do the repair work,

8 the drivers would drive. Those who didn't know any of these trades would

9 take care of the livestock. Some, under duress, went to Muslim

10 settlements and looted houses. I remember there was a village called

11 Janja, and other Muslim villages. They were forced to go there and loot.

12 Q. The people that ran Batkovici camp, what ethnicity were they?

13 A. Serbs.

14 Q. Were you forced to go to the front lines?

15 A. Yes. I went to dig trenches along the axis Majevica-Zivinica, the

16 left side of this axis. Some went to Tercak [phoen], known as Greban,

17 which was a strategic feature for them. A third group went to a third

18 area, to Brcko. A fourth group, somewhere else where they had these

19 defence trenches dug. I didn't go there, but I -- because we were divided

20 up into four or five groups and each one went to a different area.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown this map, which is a

22 new exhibit, Your Honour, which will be Prosecution Exhibit P1121.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: 1121.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND:

25 Q. Mr. Maric, could you take a moment to orient yourself with that

1 map. And once you have done that, place it on the ELMO machine to your

2 left.

3 Could you please point to the town of Sanski Most with the

4 pointer.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Could you also point to your village, Sasina.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness has so far pointed at

9 Sanski Most to the left of Banja Luka and to Sasina, to the north-east of

10 Sanski Most.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND:

12 Q. Could you now point to Batkovici, where you were taken from

13 Manjaca on the 13th of December, 1992.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. For the record, you're pointing to Batkovici, which is directly

16 north of the town of Bijeljina, in north-eastern Bosnia.

17 You said that you stayed there until the 23rd of June, 1993.

18 Where were you then taken?

19 A. Correct. They separated the Catholic detainees and they loaded us

20 onto a bus in the morning, about 3.30 or 4.00, and said that there would

21 be an exchange at Celebici near Livno. So the trip took all day. This is

22 quite a large distance, 450 to 500 kilometres away. And when we got

23 there, the commissions apparently couldn't come to an agreement and then

24 they returned us to Kamenica near Drvar, to a school. It was probably

25 formerly used as a camp because we found quite a number of blankets and

1 some things, pieces of clothing, footwear, and things that former

2 detainees had left, I assume.

3 Q. Using the pointer, could you now point to Kamenica.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if that can be laid flat onto the ELMO

6 machine so that we can see it.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. And you're pointing to the town of Kamenica north -- sorry, south

9 west of the town of Drvar; is that correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. How long did you stay in Kamenica for?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trbojevic.

13 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, both Batkovici and

14 Kamenica are outside of Krajina. They're not in Krajina. I don't know

15 what the Prosecution wishes to achieve with these questions, because these

16 are regions that are not covered by the indictment.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: The Prosecution --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But he's not being asked whether he was maltreated

19 in these places. Please -- it's important to establish when he was

20 actually released and from where he was released.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. It was for completeness more

22 than anything.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I know that there are -- I mean, any

24 evidence that tends to prove more than that will be not -- will not be

25 taken cognisance of.

1 MS. SUTHERLAND:

2 Q. How long did you stay in Kamenica for?

3 A. From the 23rd of June, until the 19th of July. We were exchanged

4 around 12.00 or 12.30. The Serb side signed the exchange all for all, and

5 then about 60 of us Catholics remained behind. They wanted to conduct

6 this exchange with us, but according to what they told us there were no

7 more detainees, so this is why they did carry out this all-for-all

8 exchange. This is what they said. We were exchanged at about 1.30 on the

9 20th of July. It was 2.00 or 2.30 in the morning.

10 Q. Where did your exchange take place?

11 A. At Celebici near Livno.

12 Q. At any of the places you were detained for the 13 months, either

13 at Betonirka in Sanski Most or at Manjaca or Batkovici or Kamenica - but

14 more importantly Betonirka or Manjaca - were you ever told why you were

15 being detained?

16 A. No, never. They had tried us in Bijeljina, because they said that

17 they were going to separate us, because as far as they were concerned, we

18 were extremists. Then they transferred us to Bijeljina. For a while we

19 were at all the different lines of theirs in order to dig trenches. One

20 morning they came to me --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer the question. I mean, the question was

22 a very simple one: Were you ever told why you were being detained?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: "No." And leave it at that.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND:

1 Q. To your knowledge, during 1992, were you ever charged with any

2 offences?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I want to turn now to ask some questions in relation to your wife

5 leaving the municipality. When did your wife leave the Sanski Most

6 municipality?

7 A. In mid-November 1992. I don't know the exact date.

8 Q. How did she come to leave?

9 A. All the people practically were leaving. They were feeling

10 insecure, especially the families of the camp inmates. They were singled

11 out. They were mistreated. They felt insecure. So they received

12 recommendations from the police that those who do not accept to be

13 perfectly loyal to the Serb authorities should best move out. People

14 didn't feel safe; not only Croats. Muslims also were fleeing.

15 Q. What did she have to do in order to leave?

16 A. They had to pay the municipal and city taxes, everything that we

17 had already paid once, in order to receive permission -- documents to be

18 able to move out and also to sign a piece of paper stating that they were

19 leaving their property for the use of Republika Srpska.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown a document dated the

21 2nd of December, 1992, a Sasina parish report. It's a new document. It

22 was disclosed under Witness 7.119.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's this witness.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. That will be Prosecution Exhibit --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: P1122.

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- P1122.

2 Q. Sir, this is a document entitled "Sasina parish report on the

3 killed, missing, and wounded from June 1992 until December 1992," from the

4 parish rectory in Sasina. Do you know who the parish priest was?

5 A. Vlado Tomic.

6 Q. Do you see your name on this document?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Is it listed at number 2 -- sorry, paragraph numbered "2"?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And it states that you're from Sasina and you were at the Manjaca

11 camp.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Looking at paragraph number 1, "On St. Peter's Day 1992, the

14 following civilians were taken from their homes to camps where they

15 disappeared." Do you know any of the people listed at numbers 1 to 4?

16 A. Ivica Tutic was taken in after me; Petrov was taken at 2.30. This

17 was on a Catholic holiday and it was a holiday in our village, on the 29th

18 of June. Ivica Tutic was taken away a couple of days after that and he

19 died in that truck. He is registered as a missing person because he never

20 appeared. The rest of them are from the hamlet of Tomasica; Juro Grgic,

21 Tomo Grgic, Vinko Topalovic. While the other four people --

22 Q. Do you know these people, these three people you just mentioned

23 from Tomasica?

24 A. They're registered as missing persons, but they're from a

25 different hamlet than myself. They belong to the municipality of

1 Prijedor, but it's a Catholic hamlet, a small village.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I've finished with that document.

3 Q. Finally, sir, I want -- can you name the people that were on the

4 truck, the 24 people that you said died as a result of suffocating on the

5 convoy?

6 A. A number that I can remember. I can tell you I know that it was

7 24 people. Three persons came back alive. Enver Burnic, former police

8 officer; Vicko, former Sanski Most police officer; and Vicko Mauzner, who

9 was a professional police officer right up until the war, until the Serb

10 police took over the police station. Zubar -- Biscevic, called -- a

11 dentist called Biscevic. They identified those 24 people. They placed

12 little cards on them. These were people who never came back. These 24

13 people, they all went in the same direction.

14 Q. You've mentioned one of the names, Ivica Tutic. Can you recall

15 the names of any of the other men that were on that truck that died that

16 day, the 7th of July, 1992?

17 A. Yes, of course I can. Mlinar; Izet Hodzic; Kale -- he was an old

18 merchant. His nickname was Kale. Izet Kamic [phoen], from Kamengrad;

19 also Zijad. I know that he was a head of a department at SIP but I'm not

20 sure about his precise post, but he was working on some documents. Dado

21 Matanovic; Vinko Matanovic; Ivica Tutic. I already mentioned him. Then

22 there were some other men from Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, Kamengrad, Dusanovci

23 [phoen] and other villages. So these were among those 24 men.

24 This was registered at Manjaca. The warden of the Manjaca camp

25 said that he will not allow these 24 people to remain there. They cannot

1 be buried there. "I will not accept these people to be as my

2 responsibility. Some of you will be responsible one day, will be held

3 accountable for what you did, after the war." And this is exactly what

4 happened.

5 Q. Who took these men away, the bodies, the 24 bodies and the three

6 men that you mentioned earlier?

7 A. The same escort that came with us. Exactly the same people went

8 back. Some of those people who were on the truck were registered again,

9 and then they loaded them up back into the truck again with a small

10 cardboard on their chest with their names, and these three people who were

11 alive were also returned with them and they probably ended up just like

12 the others did. I think that all of those 27 persons are still being

13 considered missing persons until this day.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I can just have a moment.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have no further questions with

17 this witness.

18 Witness, if you could stay there for a moment, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

20 Mr. Trbojevic.

21 Now, Mr. Trbojevic, who is defending Mr. Brdjanin, will be asking

22 you a set of questions. As I explained to you earlier on, your duty is to

23 answer those questions as accurately as possible and certainly truthfully.

24 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I only have a few questions, Your

25 Honours.

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] You said at the beginning that the Serbs took

3 over power in Sanski Most on the 20th of April, 1992.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Are you sure about that date?

6 A. Yes. I'm 100 per cent sure.

7 Q. You said that among the police officers who were at Betonirka was

8 Radoslav Martic, a SAO Krajina police officer.

9 A. Exactly. He wore a blue uniform with the tricolour flag, and

10 that's how he introduced himself.

11 Q. You mean the blue uniform which is worn in the Republic of

12 Croatia.

13 A. He introduced himself to us.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down. Slow down.

15 Mr. -- Please look at me. You speak the same language, so whether

16 you like it or not you fall into the sin of jumping straight to answer the

17 question without giving us some time, which the interpreters need very

18 badly in order to translate to us in English and French what you are

19 saying. So please, Mr. Trbojevic and Mr. Maric, allow a little bit of a

20 short interval between question and answer.

21 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. We'll be more careful, Your

22 Honour.

23 Q. You said that he was a police officer from SAO Krajina.

24 A. I didn't say that. That is how he introduced himself.

25 Q. I don't dispute that. I am just asking, did he have insignia

1 which would indicate that this was true?

2 A. A blue uniform with a tricolour flag. He said that that was that

3 police force.

4 Q. You said -- when you say "SAO Krajina," did you mean the so-called

5 Republic of Serbian Krajina in Croatia?

6 A. I only repeated the words that he used in introducing himself to

7 us.

8 Q. I'm trying to clarify this, because here in this case we're mostly

9 speaking about the Bosnian Krajina, Bosanska Krajina, the region around

10 Banja Luka.

11 A. That's your intention, since 1991.

12 Q. This case. So when you said Martic was a police officer from SAO

13 Krajina, were you thinking of the Banja Luka Krajina or the Knin Krajina?

14 A. I didn't indicate anything about him. There's no need to ask this

15 question again. This is how he introduced himself to us, and that's how I

16 characterised him.

17 Q. From Banja Luka or from Knin?

18 A. I am only repeating the way he introduced himself to us as a

19 police officer.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You can move to the next question, Mr. Trbojevic.

21 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You said that Vojo Kupresanin introduced himself as the president

23 of the Assembly of the Republika Srpska Krajina.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you sure that that is the title that he mentioned?

1 A. There are about 3.600 inmates at Manjaca.

2 Q. I am asking you because the Republic of Srpska Krajina does not

3 exist in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It didn't exist then.

4 A. You know very well that it did exist.

5 Q. It was the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

6 A. There are stamps from 1992 of Srpska Krajina. I

7 Q. You mentioned that there was a trial in Bijeljina, or was supposed

8 to be one.

9 A. There was a trial in Bijeljina. We were all sentenced to

10 sentences ranging from 5 to 25 years. When we went for the exchange,

11 those documents, those judgements were confiscated from us, and it stated

12 there in case that there was no exchange, the president of the military

13 court where we were tried, up there in the barracks - I don't know what

14 they're called, I was never up there - it stated that if the exchange did

15 not take place, we were under threat of a death sentence. When this was

16 published at night, when they came at 9.00 in the evening to tell us that

17 we would prepare for exchanges -- for an exchange between 4.00 or 5.00 in

18 the morning, we should prepare all of those sentence documents because

19 there was no need for us to keep them, so that nobody's names would be

20 found out later, that they would be kept hidden, the names and the stamps.

21 Q. So you were sentenced -- you were charged and sentenced; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. I'm asking you that because in response to an answer by my learned

25 colleague from the Prosecution, "Did anybody tell you why were you

1 arrested?"

2 A. I was interrupted before I finished my answer.

3 Q. Yes. I just wanted to clarify that.

4 You said that the guards at Manjaca, Spaga, Bula --

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. -- were in police uniforms.

7 A. Spaga used to come quite often drunk with young girls. Several

8 times he was in uniform. When he was drunk, he would take people out --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Slow down, Mr. Maric.

11 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I'm not disputing anything that you are saying. I just want you

13 to say whether those camouflage uniforms were blue or green.

14 A. They were blue and green and blue and green, with red berets and

15 blue berets, and they were also olive-grey uniforms. You know very well

16 all the uniforms that you had. You could have done anything. So this is

17 not in question.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to answer the question and nothing but the

19 question. Mr. Trbojevic here is trying to do his duty as Defence counsel

20 for his client.

21 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Could you please tell us, during the attempt at the exchange, you

23 said that it was supposed to take place at Batkovici and then at --

24 A. Then Drnis.

25 Q. -- and then Celebici. Was there an exchange commission there?

1 A. Yes, definitely. On both sides. Well, you know how you conducted

2 the negotiations for the exchange.

3 Q. I'm asking you about the Serbian side.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Maric, please refrain from telling

5 Mr. Trbojevic, "You know what you did." Mr. Trbojevic here is just a

6 lawyer. He is a Defence counsel. He's not here to answer your questions

7 or to be held responsible for whatever was done by others or by Republika

8 Srpska or by the Autonomous Region of Krajina or by his client. He is

9 here a lawyer, and I will protect him, like I will protect you as a

10 witness. But you have no right to address Mr. Trbojevic in the way you

11 have been addressing him. He is here, doing his duty. So please answer

12 the question and just the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Trbojevic.

15 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I asked you: Did a Serb commission for exchange appear at those

17 exchanges?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know the members of that committee?

20 A. Not very well. I would say if I knew them.

21 Q. Was it the same commission in all the places of exchange or not?

22 A. No. No, the commission -- the members of the commission would

23 always be different. Maybe some of the members were the same, but ...

24 Q. A while ago the Prosecutor showed you Exhibit P1112. I think that

25 we don't need to show it to the witness again. This is the report from

1 Sasina, of the Sasina parish.

2 I wanted to ask you: How did the parish know who was arrested,

3 who is missing, who was killed by a sniper, who was wounded, and so on?

4 A. The statement that I read just now does not say anywhere that

5 anybody was killed from a sniper.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, just for the record --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

8 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Under item 4 --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One minute.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: P1121 -- sorry, 1122.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Correct.

13 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. The Sasina parish report, under paragraph 4, it states "Anka

15 Klaric [phoen] was wounded in the back by a sniper rifle."

16 A. I don't know that woman.

17 Q. I am not disputing anything. I'm just asking how would the parish

18 priest know?

19 A. If he lived in the parish, then he would know.

20 Q. As far as I know, a parish priest does not maintain official

21 records of this kind.

22 A. I wouldn't know. I was arrested on the 29th of June and the

23 parish priest remained behind after that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... how can he

25 answer for the parish priest?

1 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very simply, Your Honour. The

2 information about the killed is held by the Registrar's Office, also about

3 marriages and births and so on. But those who are arrested or who are

4 wounded or who are in hospital, these records are not maintained by the

5 church or by the municipality, so this cannot constitute a document and

6 the witness quite rightly says that he doesn't know, because this is

7 impossible.

8 A. Who made the church in Manjaca? Can you tell me that?

9 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... a lot more

11 information about their parishioners than others. But anyway, they even

12 hear confessions.

13 No more questions. Re-examination?

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Maric, you see, we have come to an end and

17 you can go back to where you came from now. In fact, you will be escorted

18 out from this courtroom by the usher and then you will be attended to by

19 other officials of this Tribunal who will give you all the assistance you

20 require and be returned to your country. Before you leave this courtroom,

21 however, it is my duty on behalf of the Tribunal and on behalf of my

22 colleagues, the other two Judges, and everyone in this courtroom, to thank

23 you for having accepted to come here and give evidence in this trial.

24 Thank you. You may now leave. Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we made it by the second break.

2 Before we adjourn, any other messages from Ms. Korner for onward

3 transmission to Mr. Ackerman?

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't have any messages from

5 Ms. Korner, but there's -- Witness number 7.101 is waiting. He was the

6 Rule 92 bis witness who Your Honour ordered to attend for

7 cross-examination for half an hour, I think, by the --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: He's here?

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Yes, all right. So we'll hear that

11 after the break.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Ms. Richterova will be leading the witness --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: -- through the introductory questions before

15 cross-examination.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So are you prepared for that,

17 Mr. Trbojevic?

18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I am not, Your

19 Honour. I don't know who this witness is. I don't have any material

20 pertaining to him.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: We could advise you on the break of the name of

22 the witness.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: In that case, if it's necessary, we'll call

24 Mr. Ackerman. I mean --

25 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a 20-minute break.

2 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's clear up the mess. What's wrong, madam?

5 Yes. Ms. Korner is here. Mr. Ackerman -- Mr. Ackerman -- now,

6 Mr. Trbojevic, this is sheer bad luck, I think. You're two against four.

7 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour -- I'm sorry. Your Honour, actually,

8 I didn't realise you were sitting. I came in to find out what was

9 happening about Mr. Ackerman's motion because I'm due back in the Stakic

10 case at 6.00.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman's motion is arriving tomorrow at 11.00.

12 I will have a quick look at it as soon as -- as soon as it arrives. And

13 then if necessary, we'll reconvene in the afternoon. And if we do that,

14 we will decide it -- if we can decide it, obviously. We will decide it

15 orally tomorrow. If not, it will Friday. If not Friday, it will be

16 Monday; depends. Because I haven't got an idea what this motion is going

17 to entail.

18 MS. KORNER: Nor have any of us. This is all news to us. But

19 Your Honour, I ask that it should be raised because it strikes me that

20 anything to do with Prijedor could have a potential effect on delaying the

21 start of this trial. And so we really need to know what's in Mr.

22 Ackerman's mind.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But what I did, Ms. Korner, was very simply

24 to ask at the time Mr. Ackerman to give general -- very generic sort of

25 information on what to expect, which he did.

1 MS. KORNER: I heard that. That was about as useful as --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Nothing spectacular. I mean, you couldn't really

3 make -- anyway, I left it at that at the time because I also know that I

4 can't expect Mr. Ackerman -- he could have easily gone back to his office

5 without even informing us that he was going to file a motion in any case.

6 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm most grateful. If we can sort

7 it out this week, I would be very grateful. Thank you so much.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we will, Ms. Korner.

9 We have another problem, however. I was under the impression that

10 after having finished with the previous witness, Mr. Maric, that we were

11 ready to go home, only to find out that we had 7.101.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, the Defence asked for him, and he wasn't one of

13 the ones they agreed.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, for cross-examination. But Mr. Trbojevic seems

15 to have been taken by surprise as much as I was.

16 MS. KORNER: Well, it helps if the Defence know their own case and

17 know what witnesses they're asking for, particularly when we drag them

18 here from parts unknown.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but he can always pass on the baby to Mr.

20 Ackerman. And Mr. Ackerman, I understand, couldn't be found now? He's

21 printing the motion?

22 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Ackerman was convinced that

23 this witness would not be appearing today. And he was due to

24 cross-examine him. And that is why I was not prepared for him, nor to

25 accept to cross-examine him.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What I recall is that about a week -- last week

2 anyway, before 7.162 gave evidence, this witness, this witness -- or Rule

3 92, anyway, was mentioned and this witness was referred to. I pointed out

4 to Ms. Korner that 7.101, I wanted a clarification as to whether he was

5 going to be brought forward for cross-examination, because his evidence,

6 his testimony, was cumulative of 7.162, who had not given evidence as yet

7 then. And Ms. Korner informed me 7.162 will be our next witness, which he

8 was. So --

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely last week we -- we had an idea, at least,

11 that 7.101 will be brought forward to give evidence. There may have been

12 some misunderstanding in the sense that I myself was not aware that he was

13 going to be --

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he was on the list for -- to be called

15 this week after --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he? I am under the impression that we were not

17 given a list this week.

18 MS. KORNER: Last week you were given a list of the witnesses who

19 would be coming this week.

20 But Your Honour, the fact is that was one the Defence -- when we

21 provided the list of witnesses under Rule 92, the Defence for Brdjanin

22 specifically asked for him.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

24 MS. KORNER: We asked Mr. Ackerman whether he still required all

25 these witnesses. He said he did. He then recanted on the ones that --

1 Talic had asked for but never recanted on any of the others. Your Honour

2 may recall --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a witness -- and then I -- one other thing I

4 want -- I want to mention is that I do recall also that you stated at the

5 time, and I did not contradict you because I thought you were right, that

6 this witness was being called for cross-examination half hour -- half hour

7 each. In fact, it is one hour each, according to our decision. So it's

8 one hour by Brdjanin and one hour by Talic, which is not -- who is not

9 here now.

10 The main opposition for this witness being -- having his statement

11 received under 92 was forthcoming from General Talic, but as you stated,

12 he was also opposed by your team. So what I suggest we can do is we can

13 adjourn for today, reconvene tomorrow in any case, deal with the witness

14 and the motion tomorrow, possibly motion first and witness later so that

15 it would give time to Mr. -- to Mr. Ackerman to be ready for -- for the

16 witness.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I -- with respect, could it go the other

18 way around? I mean, he's been here --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. We can start with the witness. We can

20 start with the witness.

21 And in any case, we can't finish -- I can't allow one hour to the

22 Defence of Brdjanin today if we only have 23 -- 25 -- 27 minutes left.

23 So I think this is the best solution that I can think of. We will

24 adjourn for today. Please communicate this decision to Mr. Ackerman. I

25 have -- I am under the impression that --

1 MS. KORNER: If Your Honour will forgive me, I have to get back to

2 court. Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Cross-examination of this witness won't last

4 long. That's what I think. But anyway, we will reconvene tomorrow at

5 2.15 -- 2.15 -- Chuqing, I think it was this same courtroom. No? This

6 same courtroom at 2.15 tomorrow. All right? I thank you.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

8 at 6.04, to be reconvened on Thursday

9 the 17th day of October, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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