1 Monday, 28 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,
8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you hearing me in a language that you can
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hear and I understand, Your
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
17 Appearances for the Prosecution.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning, Your Honours. Anna Richterova, Ann
19 Sutherland, and Denise Gustin for the Prosecution.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Where's Ms. Gustin? I can't see her.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: She's here. She just left for two binders.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I thought there was something wrong.
23 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.
25 I'm here with Milan Trbojevic. Ms. Jevtovic is not here. It probably has
1 to do with the storm we had yesterday and flights and things. I hope
2 she'll be here soon.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. And good morning to you
5 Any preliminaries? Yes.
6 MS. RICHTEROVA: Okay. So I will start. It has -- it is about
7 three motions which were filed by Defence lawyers of Mr. Talic.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. I'm not interested to hear about those.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: In that case --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: You know that the composition of the Chamber in
11 Talic has been changed, as of last week. And therefore, any submissions
12 in relation to that case on behalf of either the Prosecution or the
13 Defence ought to be addressed to a different Chamber, not to this one.
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: I only thought that the one motion, motion to
15 prevent the Prosecution from introducing evidence relating to
16 General Talic in Brdjanin case --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget it. I mean, that will -- that will be -- I'm
18 not interested in hearing anything.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: In that case, I --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And please proceed, because we have been discussing
21 amongst ourselves and we will be introducing a new system in this Chamber.
22 When you have submissions to make on a legal argument, we are not going
23 to entertain any further oral submissions which will take time from our
24 schedule for the hearing of witnesses. So any oral arguments which you
25 have, which you might have, as from now onwards which are tantamount to a
1 specific request or remedy, please henceforth be advised to formulate them
2 in writing. But we will not entertain any further loss of time from the
3 hearing of witnesses. The Chamber is here to hear the witnesses primarily
4 and to deal with the rest during other hours.
5 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand, and I do
6 not have any preliminaries.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Ackerman.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, after what she just said, Your Honour, I
9 don't know if I should say anything or put it all in writing.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I mean, you can advise the Chamber what to
11 expect, but just leave it at that, because it may well be that -- some
12 kind of debate might be required.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll limit it to one matter, Your Honour. As you
14 know, you have and you've been given a copy of a joint memorandum that was
15 entered into between the Prosecution and Defence.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Regarding the Prijedor phase of the case. That
18 memorandum by its specific terms and in its spirit contemplates that we
19 will dramatically shorten --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: -- the evidence presentation in Prijedor by using
22 transcripts of prior testimony as the basis of the direct testimony.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Supplemented by very brief additional direct,
25 having to do with specific Brdjanin issues. That's what Your Honour
1 suggested; that's what we agreed.
2 The first of those witnesses is 7.178, who's the next witness to
3 be called. As a matter of fact, with regard to that witness, I advised
4 the Prosecution that I would accept the transcripts without the witness
5 even needing to be called. The Prosecution decided not to accept that
6 offer and to go ahead and call the witness in any event.
7 And then this morning when I got up I was greeted with a list of
8 proposed exhibits for that witness. It appears that the Prosecution is
9 going to put in as many as 48 documents -- have this witness talk about as
10 many as 48 documents. It seems to me it goes way beyond the limited
11 direct specific to the Brdjanin case. And if that's going to be the
12 attitude of the Prosecution regarding the agreement, then I don't know why
13 we spent any time entering into it in the first place. And it seems to be
14 a waste and that we're just going to go forward as usual. And that's what
15 I wanted to bring to your attention.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But that's not a legal matter. That's a
17 matter of administration. And what I said earlier -- what I hinted at
18 earlier as the henceforth future policy of this Trial Chamber does not
19 relate to matters of administration. Matters of administration need to be
20 addressed at the beginning of the sitting as much as possible.
21 I have a list of potential exhibits, and mine is only of 25.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: You're looking at today's witness, Your Honour.
23 I'm looking at --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. 7.68.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm looking at the first one that has -- that
1 involves transcripts. This witness there are no previous transcripts.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: 7.178 is the one I'm talking about, which is the
4 witness scheduled probably for tomorrow. And I think there are 48 -- I
5 counted it quickly, but I think there are 48 exhibits listed there.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest that you thrash it out with
7 Ms. Korner as much as you can -- or is the next witness in your hands,
8 Ms. Sutherland?
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Is the next
10 witness ...?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness will be --
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. He'll be testifying tomorrow.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, 7.178; correct?
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. Your Honour, did Your Honour want me to
15 respond to this?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. But it could well be that these are
17 the documents that are covered or referred to in his -- no?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, they're not, Your Honour. These documents
19 are part of the Prijedor binders, the five binders that have been
20 submitted as potential exhibits. A number of them -- I can't count off
21 the top of my head, but perhaps 25 to 30 of them are dealing with
22 dismissals and appointments. Now, we say that is relevant to
23 Mr. Brdjanin, and this witness will not be dealing at great length with
24 these documents and it will not take a lot of time.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's -- it's still -- I can understand
1 Mr. Ackerman's complaints in the sense that if he's given one scenario in
2 the beginning which is enough for him to take a decision even to the
3 extent of not calling -- of not needing the witness to be present and then
4 all of a sudden be informed that the witness is going probably to be
5 referred to in the short direct to 48 documents, then the whole -- the
6 whole picture changes --
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it's my understanding that
8 Mr. Ackerman was informed last week by the senior trial attorney that this
9 witness was going to be called by us after we had received his e-mail to
10 say that he was happy for this witness not to be called. There was a
11 discussion held, and he was advised that this witness was going to be
12 called -- a few documents were going to be introduced through him from the
13 Prijedor binders and some videos. That's my understanding of the matter.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In any case, let's close the debate on this
15 matter here. May I suggest to you that knowing and fully aware that
16 what's going to happen with Prijedor is the result of a mutual decision to
17 cooperate between -- a mutual decision between Prosecution and Defence, I
18 think the rest, how you administer the evidence stage in regard to this
19 Prijedor, has to be proceeded with in the same spirit of collaboration.
20 So in other words, please do not create situations or bring about
21 situations which may to any extent -- because in these instances when
22 there is good faith and cooperation, even the slightest irritation
23 irritates more than usual. So what I would suggest is that you take these
24 matters up in the same spirit that you have done so far and try to sort
25 these things out in as practical --
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: I will have a discussion with Ms. Korner.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: And then I will discuss it with Mr. Ackerman.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
5 Can we call the witness in? Any further submissions Mr. Ackerman?
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I hesitate to ask but I was wondering what the
7 status of --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: 98. Yes, a decision is on its way from Belgium,
9 because it was drafted but it needed some more drafting, some amendments,
10 and we still have to go through it, the three of us. It will be handed
11 down very soon. The only thing that I can tell you before we hand down
12 the decision is that in this we are perfectly entitled to say that the
13 decision will not be such as to hamper or obstruct the continuation of the
14 Prosecution proceeding with the witnesses for the time being. Okay?
15 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I think in that connection I should report to the
17 Trial Chamber that I -- that I worked every day since last Friday.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So have we.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Numerous hours, 10, 12, 14 hours a day. It's my
20 considered judgement that I have managed to work through about 20 per cent
21 of the workload that needs to be done to be prepared for the Prijedor
22 phase of this case. And I am absolutely prepared for the three witnesses
23 that are scheduled for this week. No problem with any of those. Next
24 week becomes a serious problem.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next witness, please, 7. --
1 MS. RICHTEROVA: He's in closed session.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: In closed session.
3 So members of the public, I'm afraid your presence in the public
4 gallery practically comes to an end here, because we need to go into
5 closed session with this witness for -- as a protective measure.
6 We'll go into closed session now.
7 [Closed session]
13 Pages 10960-11033 – redacted – closed session
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
24 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
25 the 29th day of October, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.