Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11919

1 Thursday, 21 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court].

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a language that you

9 can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

11 Honours. I hear and understand.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner, properly attired this

14 afternoon, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good afternoon to you. Appearances

16 for Radoslav Brdjanin.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman

18 with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you. Yes,

20 preliminaries. I have got a few as well to address to Mr. Ackerman. But

21 please go ahead.

22 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it goes back to the discussions we

23 had yesterday. Your Honour, because -- well, first of all, we stuck to

24 Witness 7.45 for this Monday because he's here and I would hope that given

25 that he was cross-examined for something like four days in the Stakic

Page 11920

1 case, on matters which effectively are the same as those he's going to

2 testify today, that he can be concluded by the end of the Wednesday

3 sitting. However, because of the moving of the plenary to the 2nd and 3rd

4 of December, we've had to take out Witness 7.46, who is clearly, because

5 as going to be called, in full, a witness of some length.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: He would have taken four days, that one?

7 MS. KORNER: Well we estimated the best part of three days

8 because --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to offer you - sorry to interrupt you

10 like this - but I was going to offer you to sit on Tuesday, the 3rd as

11 well but I don't think -- unless you have...

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour we've got the holiday on the 4th .

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We've got a holiday on the 4th. No, the 5th, sorry.

14 MS. KORNER: 5th, sorry.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are sitting on the 4th.

16 MS. KORNER: And we are committed as I said yesterday to calling

17 Lord Ashdown, because trying to find a window on the 6th.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not a problem.

19 MS. KORNER: So Your Honour we've then -- we hope, can I say

20 straight away this is a provisional list because none of these people

21 have YET been contacted to ask if they could come on different days from

22 which originally anticipated. Witness 7.54, we definitely say to be

23 confirmed is because we are having problems with his VISA. Your Honour, I

24 think I ought to stress that the major problem about sudden changes is

25 that the witnesses quite often only get a visa for a limited stay and it

Page 11921

1 takes some time then to reorganise the visa to get them another one for a

2 different date. In addition to that, they make arrangements with their

3 work and it sometimes becomes difficult then to rearrange it. But, Your

4 Honour, that's a provisional list with Your Honours will recall that

5 because the plenary is gone you stated we would be sitting, moved rather

6 the 12th -- the 11th, 12th and 13th. Mr. Ackerman has already made

7 arrangements I understand so we've given this list so that he can clear

8 whether or not these witnesses can be dealt with by his co-counsel.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yesterday, he confirmed.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Ms. Korner, could you slow down, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Everything.

12 Yesterday, you stated that it would be all right for us to sit on the 11th

13 12th and 13th. He definitely did. First he reserved his position but

14 then later on he came forward and said we could sit the 11th, 12th and

15 13th.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I said I would consent to sitting on the 11th, 12th

17 and 13th if we started on January 11th, in return.

18 MS. KORNER: That's one thing I object to, I'm afraid.

19 Your Honour, we had a huge break over the Christmas period. It seems to

20 me, I'm -- I understand, of course and I wouldn't seek for one moment to

21 suggest that the Orthodox -- those of the Orthodox faith shouldn't be

22 allowed to celebrate Christmas on the Monday and Tuesday or whatever it is

23 but there is no good reason that I can see why Mr. Ackerman, for example,

24 couldn't be here on immediately, on the Wednesday to start whether we do

25 intend to call Witness 7.46. In which case we will finish the Prijedor

Page 11922

1 municipality within effectively the first week of sitting. With one

2 caveat to that, Your Honour. You will recall that you gave permission to

3 Mr. Ackerman to deal with the application under Rule 92 in stages but I

4 think the stages ought to come to an end.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's something I was coming to.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes, we need to know whether any of these witnesses

7 will be required immediately after the new year. We've had that request

8 from VWS.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go in private session for one minute.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 11923

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would just like to have --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you say something, what I would like you to

Page 11924

1 address also in the course of your intervention is your -- an update on

2 the Rule 92 bis matter and update on the Rule 94 matter, provided that you

3 have been furnished with copies of the transcripts, which I am told you

4 have been, and then finally, there is an application, motion by the

5 Prosecution, 12th motion, on certain protective measures. If I am -- if

6 my calculations are right, I may be wrong, I stand to be corrected, the

7 deadline for your response was yesterday. I don't know if you have filed

8 a response but we haven't had any. We haven't received any. So those are

9 the three things I would like you to address as well, apart from what you

10 had in mind of saying.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, with regard to those three things, Your

12 Honour, let me -- please give me until Monday and I think I can resolve

13 them all for you by then. They haven't gotten my attention simply because

14 other things have had priority, primarily preparing a number of

15 cross-examinations to be able to proceed this week. And that's mostly

16 what I've done the last seven days.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You will appreciate especially with regard to 92

18 bis.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I fully appreciate it.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's important for the Prosecution to know.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: As Your Honour knows there is only so many hours in

22 the day there is only so much time I can work. I work hard and I do as

23 much as I can and if I haven't gotten something done it's only because I

24 haven't had time to do it. I don't do other things that detract from my

25 work in this case. As far as the -- I would just like Your Honour to tell

Page 11925

1 all those people out there in the international community who are worried

2 about the progress of our case, that just because we are not sitting in

3 court doesn't mean we are not working. The judges are working, all the

4 lawyers are working. We are all moving this case forward outside the

5 Court just as rapidly as we are moving it forward inside the court and

6 it's not practical for us to sit much more than we can because lawyers

7 simply can't be prepared for much more than the hours we are sitting. And

8 so I think this case is moving forward properly, appropriately, and I

9 think we are all working real hard to make sure that happens and so I

10 don't think we should be subject to any criticism whatsoever, neither this

11 Chamber nor any of the lawyers in it, for the way this case is moving. I

12 think it's being done properly and efficiently.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Incidentally, Mr. Ackerman, and Ms. Korner, I

14 have received just a few minutes before I came up for this sitting, a copy

15 of a letter which I have just read actually, just before walking into the

16 room, from Ms. Martinez with regard to the discussions we had earlier on

17 in the month about resources, additional resources that you had asked to

18 be put in place to assist you to prepare better your Defence. Have you

19 been served with -- have you received this letter?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: That letter is pretty old, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is 8th of November but it only arrived today.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I've seen the letter and I've had two meetings with

23 Ms. Martinez since then, the latest one being this morning and we are

24 still involved in discussions regarding these issues.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So this matter is not concluded as yet.

Page 11926

1 MR. ACKERMAN: That letter does not conclude it. Many of the

2 suggestions in there are moot at this point.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I then take -- I'm sorry just to go

5 back to the timetabling. I don't think we had a decision finally because

6 at the moment we need to instruct or get instructions to the person

7 organising the witnesses. We will not be sitting the whole of that week,

8 the first week in January, the 6th to the --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's my understanding. That's my understanding.

10 MS. KORNER: Very well.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness is 7.226.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the next witness is Mr. Atlija who

13 requires no protective measures, 7.79. Mr. Ackerman originally asked for

14 certain excisions from the transcript which is what you were given. He's

15 since, in the light of the information I've now given him, withdrawn his

16 objection. You should have been handed replacement pages for the ones

17 which were originally redacted and the only basis -- and I have said that

18 I will ask certain follow-up questions to provide further information

19 about some of the things he said.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: If you're not happy, we could do away with the

23 sittings of the 13th -- 11th, 12th, 13th of December, schedule to sit

24 starting from Wednesday. That would be 7th of January. Or 8th of

25 January. I don't remember.

Page 11927

1 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, my application was to sit all

2 those days.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no way we are going to sit all those days.

4 MS. KORNER: I understand it's Your Honour's particular

5 circumstances that would make that first week in January as opposed to

6 Mr. Ackerman's objection, that first week in January, difficult.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

8 MS. KORNER: So, Your Honour, I just wanted to confirm that so

9 that we could get the witnesses reorganised again.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Usher, could you bring in the witness, please?

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Atlija.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are about to give evidence, testimony, in this

15 case, and before you do so, the usher will be handing you the text of a

16 solemn declaration that you will be telling us the truth, the whole truth

17 and nothing but the truth. So, please, now I invite to you read that

18 solemn declaration out loud and that will be your undertaking to this

19 Trial Chamber that you will be testifying the truth.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 11928

1 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not the first time that you have come to

2 this Tribunal to give evidence. I still welcome you. And I will be very

3 concise and explain to you --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- What's going to happen. You are first going to

6 be asked a set of questions by the Prosecution and in this case

7 represented by senior counsel Joanna Korner. She will then be followed by

8 Mr. Ackerman for Radoslav Brdjanin, who is the accused here, in what we

9 refer to as a cross-examination.

10 I am also to inform you that we have available the transcript of

11 your testimony in the Stakic case and what you stated -- what you

12 testified in that case will also form part of the records of this case.

13 However, you will be asked questions which may be in addition to what you

14 testified in that case, but also with reference to what you testified.

15 Ms. Korner, he is all yours.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examined by Ms. Korner:

18 Q. Mr. Atlija, can we just establish your identity and background for

19 the purposes of the record? I think your full name is Ivo Atlija; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And you were born on the 19th of May, 1963, in Brisevo, which is

23 in the Prijedor municipality?

24 A. That is also correct.

25 Q. You are, by nationality and ethnic origin, a Croat?

Page 11929

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And a Roman Catholic by religion?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Mr. Atlija, as you're aware I'm going to just summarise the

5 evidence that you gave when you testified in the case against

6 Dr. Milomir Stakic, which I think you yourself have had a chance to review

7 by listening to the tapes of your testimony?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. First I'd like to you have a look, please, at a map so that we can

10 just show the judges where Brisevo is.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think we will use this one because

12 it's -- I don't think it's one of Mr. Inayat's maps but I just --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What we have -- at least what it seems that we

14 have --

15 MS. KORNER: Yes, you have.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is S184A in Stakic.

17 MS. KORNER: That's right.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is a clear enough map.

19 MS. KORNER: Right. Well, I think we've got a coloured version.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to --

21 MS. KORNER: In that case we will use that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly and I don't think he needs to point.

23 MS. KORNER: Could Your Honour just hold up that particular map

24 which one that was? We are having some difficulty ourselves in --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: When we have is a black and white -- it's a very

Page 11930

1 simple map, rudimentary with a lot of arrows.

2 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour, that's not it. Would Your Honour

3 forgive me for one moment?


5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, I think what we will do

7 is -- this map has already been exhibited as -- all right. We will look

8 for the exhibit number. Can we just put it on the ELMO so everybody can

9 see what we are looking at? All right.

10 Q. First of all, just so we look at it, we can see Prijedor, the

11 town, and then can we see Ljubija to the southwest?

12 A. This is Ljubija here, Donja Ljubija and Gornja Ljubija.

13 Q. And can we find Brisevo? We may need to move the map up a little

14 bit.

15 A. Yes, of course. That's where I was born and where I grew up.

16 This area here is called Brisevo.

17 Q. Move it up.

18 A. [In English] It's okay.

19 Q. And did Brisevo come within the commune of Ljubija?

20 A. [Interpretation] Yes, it was part of the Ljubija local community.

21 MS. KORNER: And this, Your Honours, appears at page 5546 - you

22 can take the map away, thank you very much, usher - on the transcript at

23 the bottom.

24 Q. I think it was a village of approximately 120 houses?

25 A. That's right.

Page 11931

1 Q. And apart from some women of Serb ethnicity who were married to

2 Croats, all the other inhabitants were Bosnian Croat; is that right?

3 A. Yes, about 400 inhabitants.

4 Q. All right. And as we are going to see and hear, I think it

5 contained a Catholic church.

6 A. That is also true.

7 Q. Now, let's just go through, then, please, and I'm going to ask you

8 to look at photographs and videos during the course of this summary, you

9 told us -- you told the Court in Stakic about your background and your

10 military service and that you worked after your military service had

11 finished at a repair shop for the Ljubija mines?

12 A. Yes. That's correct. The workshop was usually referred to as the

13 central workshop.

14 Q. Again, I'm just summarising, you described the interethnic

15 relationship before and after 1990.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm moving to page 5549.

17 Q. And then the propaganda that was put out, which began to change

18 the nature of the relationship?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. You described the increase in the carrying of weapons that took

21 place shortly in the months before the takeover, and then I think you

22 described the takeover in Prijedor on the 30th of April, after which you

23 were sent home from your work and returned to your village in Brisevo; is

24 that correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 11932

1 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, may I interrupt to say that the map

2 I put on the ELMO was in fact P1127 so that we know.

3 Q. You described --

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is at page 5555 onwards --

5 Q. -- your witnessing of the attacks on Hambarine and Kozarac?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. And the announcements that you heard on Prijedor Radio being made

8 on behalf of the Crisis Staff.

9 MS. KORNER: That's at page 5559, Your Honours.

10 Q. You described on the 27th of May the shelling of Brisevo, which

11 came from Serb villages, and the ultimatum that was given to you, your

12 village, to surrender all your weapons, including a gun they thought you

13 had called a Bofors gun, although you had no such weapon. Do you remember

14 saying that?

15 A. I do, and you put it quite accurately.

16 Q. Thank you. And then you described how Brisevo was blockaded and

17 you were unable to leave, to obtain either food or medical supplies. And

18 you described some incidents where people were arrested before the attack

19 on Brisevo and taken to camps. Now I just want to ask you?

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm now going to page 5569. This was

21 originally one of the pages where excisions took place.

22 Q. You told us last time, in the Stakic case, about an attack on,

23 first of all, on sorry, on a man named Milan Ivandic, who was beaten and

24 cut with a screwdriver. Do you remember telling us about that?

25 A. I do.

Page 11933

1 Q. You didn't witness this yourself, but who told you about this

2 incident?

3 A. I first learned about it from Milan Buzuk, but the news spread

4 very quickly by word of mouth, as is usually the case in villages.

5 Q. And how long after this incident did Milan Buzuk tell you about

6 it?

7 A. A day later, a day after it happened, I already knew what had

8 happened.

9 Q. And just so the Defence know, what happened to Mr. Buzuk?

10 A. Mr. Buzuk was tortured and killed in the course of the attack on

11 Brisevo.

12 Q. Thank you. Then after that, you described at some length the

13 actual attack on Brisevo which began at about half past 3.00 a.m. on the

14 24th of July; is that right?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. And this was an attack that took place without any warning

17 whatsoever?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And it was, as you discovered, an attack by two separate units.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is at page 5585.

21 Q. The 6th Krajina Brigade and the 5th Kozara Brigade?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And I think you received confirmation of this at a meeting that

24 you later had with Mr. Vojo Kupresanin; is that correct?

25 A. It is, yes.

Page 11934

1 Q. Now, you witnessed a number of killings personally which you

2 described, and I think you also drew a number of sketch plans to

3 illustrate the evidence you were giving. The first one --

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this was referred to at page 5580. And

5 I think we better give you that so you can just -- it was annex D, that's

6 it, yes. Could that be given to the witness, put up on the ELMO?

7 Your Honours, just before that does, I wasn't quite sure what the outcome

8 of the discussion was other than each document was to be given a new

9 exhibit number for this case.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I think what we are going to do - I had

13 a very short discussion with Madam Chuqing before we started the

14 sitting - is that in order to lessen the possibility of confusion as much

15 as we could, we are creating a new number that would be the exhibit number

16 in this case but then we will be preserving, keeping, the Stakic reference

17 number, separating the two with a dot. So it would be, for example,

18 1516.the number in Stakic, is that how you proposed it, Madam Chuqing?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Would that be accepted by the OTP. I think that

20 would save us a lot of work.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it will be easier for us later on because

22 what is going to happen, Ms. Korner is this: We will -- I would

23 imagine -- out of these many witnesses that we have, coming from Stakic,

24 with transcripts, we are going to be reading those or quoting from those

25 for the purposes of the judgement.

Page 11935

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And there will be references to the documents as

3 numbered in Stakic.

4 MS. KORNER: Right.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And we give them a completely different number in

6 Brdjanin, that could create a confusion even as far as tallying is

7 concerned. So what has been suggested to me, I agreed to, or I agreed

8 with, because I think it will lessen the possibilities, reduce the

9 possibilities of confusion.

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, what -- yes, I'm perfectly content

11 with that. For example, this one, which was S183, if we could call that

12 P1522/S183?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect.

14 MS. KORNER: Right. Your Honours, I hope we don't need because we

15 handed out the documents if Your Honour could just write them over the top

16 or the registry can write.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We can move along without any problems like that.

18 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. In that case -- has the witness

19 now got it? Yes.

20 Q. Could you just so the Court can see, just very briefly summarise

21 what you showed on this drawing?

22 A. On this drawing in front of us, I described and marked the place

23 where Pero Dimac was killed and in the text I described the incident and I

24 put a small cross with initials PD, that is the place where he was killed

25 and another small cross with IA, that is my name, and VT, VT, Viktor Tozan

Page 11936

1 these are the two places, these marked these indicate two places where we

2 were hiding and from which we saw Pero Dimac being killed and I also drew

3 some houses just to provide for a better orientation to show you what it

4 looked like.

5 Q. Right. So where we can see is where you've marked other people's

6 houses?

7 A. Yes, that is right. That's just for the sake of orientation so

8 that you know where the site of the murder was in relation to the church

9 and other buildings in the vicinity.

10 Q. All right. Thank you very much. So can we now look at the second

11 map that you drew in respect of military units? That was page 55 -- annex

12 E. Yes, thank you. Would you look at that, please?

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that will then become Exhibit

14 P1523/S184. Your Honour, this was referred to at page 5585 of the

15 transcript.

16 Q. Can you just again show -- we can see you've marked various troop

17 movements. If you just indicate what you were showing there?

18 A. On this drawing, I tried, and I wasn't alone, I didn't do it all

19 by myself, we tried to reconstruct the attack on Brisevo and the direction

20 from which the units of the 5th Kozara unit came and from which direction

21 the units of the 6th Krajina Brigade came. I can show you from south,

22 from the Sava bridge, the units of the 6th Kozara Brigade were moving,

23 mostly through the villages of Ostra Luka and Rasavci to this side here

24 and from the direction of Ljubija and Prijedor, that is from the north,

25 the units that belonged to the 5th Kozara Brigade were advancing and

Page 11937

1 somewhere in the centre of Brisevo, they came together and thus closed the

2 circle.

3 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. That's very helpful, Mr. Atlija. You

4 can put that one away. Now, I think you went back to Brisevo after the

5 attack had concluded, and after the infantry had been in and you described

6 the deaths, the looting. I want to look now -- you described the level of

7 destruction, and I think you said that some 68 houses had been burnt and

8 the church had been virtually destroyed, and I want to you have a look,

9 please, now, at some photographs that you were shown as well, just to

10 identify them.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, those were 185, yeah, in the Stakic

12 case. Thank you. Just put them up on the ELMO, one by one.

13 Q. First photograph?

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, for reference that's page 5591 of the

15 transcript --

16 Q. Is -- shows what?

17 A. It shows the Catholic church in Brisevo, built in 1990. At the

18 time, when it was photographed, I believe it had not yet been officially

19 opened.

20 Q. The next photograph, please?

21 A. On this photograph, we see the remains of a house owned by Antika

22 Mlinar, Ante or Antika. We just called him Antika but whether his true

23 name is Ante or Antika, I'm not quite sure.

24 Q. Then can we look, please, at the next photograph?

25 A. This photograph shows what remains of the houses owned by

Page 11938

1 Nedo Mlinar and Andjelko Mlinar.

2 Q. Next?

3 A. This photograph also shows what remains of Antika Mlinar's house

4 from a different angle. The photograph was taken from a different place.

5 Q. And the photograph after that?

6 A. This could be what remains of the Matic's family house.

7 Q. If we look at the next photograph, with the number 4764, I think

8 that shows a closeup taken from above?

9 A. Yes. That's right. This photograph was taken from above, from a

10 higher altitude, from the road, yes.

11 Q. And then can we look at the next, please? 4765?

12 A. I think that here you see what remains of the house which I think

13 belonged to Stipe Dimac.

14 Q. And then finally, 4766?

15 A. This I think is the same building but the photograph was taken

16 from a different angle, from a different place.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. That will then be P1524/S-- what? I

18 think it's 24. We've had two diagrams and if they can be -- it will be a

19 collection point 1, whatever the photographs are. I think there are six

20 altogether.

21 Next could I ask you, please, to have a look at the video that you

22 saw before? We've shortened it because it shows a lot of Ljubija. I just

23 want you to look, please, at the church. This was filmed, I think, by a

24 German television crew so if we could just play that video, from the point

25 where it was set up? Yeah.

Page 11939

1 [Videotape played]

2 MS. KORNER: Can we stop, please, stop the video? Sorry, freeze

3 it. I'm sorry, I should have said.

4 Q. Mr. Atlija, I think as last time if you just say to stop the video

5 and they will freeze the frame. So if we could go back to the frame?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes exactly let's rewind a little bit, please.

7 MS. KORNER: Yeah.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And then when you want us to freeze the screen,

9 please tell us what's on the screen.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Freeze. This is where you can see

11 very well what remains of the church. This is the same the one that we

12 saw in the photographs. This is taken from the front door towards the

13 interior of the church.

14 MS. KORNER: Can we carry on playing?

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here we should see the roof of

17 the church which is gone. I mean it burnt down and caved in.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the interior of that church.

20 I don't think there is any need to freeze it. I mean if it is moving so

21 slowly then there is no need to stop every time.

22 MS. KORNER: All right, just carry on playing.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can see where the

25 so-called altar was. That is, you see what remains of the cross on the

Page 11940

1 wall. This is the remains -- what remains of the belfry, again taken from

2 the inside. This is the front door, taken from inside, and to the left,

3 the staircase leading to the choir. That is where the choir usually is

4 during the mass, during service.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The belfry once again.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we see the bell, or rather the

9 pieces of the -- of the bell, which fell down and broke. And around it we

10 see the brick, tiles of those that fell inside when the roof fell down.

11 MS. KORNER: All right. Yes, thank you very much. I think that

12 will do.

13 Your Honour, that will be P1525/S186.

14 Q. Now, you then described to the Court -- you told the Court that

15 some 68 people had been killed, and you then described to the Court the

16 various burials that you took part in around the area, and you drew -- you

17 used for those purposes, again, another diagram, and I wonder if you could

18 now look at that?

19 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour, there is a slight hitch. Just a

20 moment. I think I've got another copy.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the problem?

22 MS. KORNER: Yes, sorry, we used the same map. That's right.

23 It's whatever it is, Exhibit -- annex E, which was Exhibit

24 P1523 -- 1523/184. That's it. Could we have that back? Yeah. That's

25 right. And I now recall because he did draw another map but it was very

Page 11941

1 unclear so we used this one.

2 Q. I think first of all, you described how you buried your father,

3 who was killed?

4 A. That is right.

5 Q. And then you dealt with the various bodies and graves that you

6 dug. First of all, I think at Stara Rijeka; is that correct?

7 A. It is.

8 Q. Which you can see on the left of that plan. Now, I need to ask

9 you about that, because that was related to some people who passed through

10 your village.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this was at page 5601. It was again

12 one of the original excisions.

13 Q. You didn't see a group of Muslims passing through your village, I

14 think, but were you told about it. Can you remember now who told you

15 about it?

16 A. I didn't see them personally and I cannot remember who it was

17 exactly who told me at that time that some ten or 12 Muslims had passed

18 through our village and moved towards Stari Majdan across through

19 Stara Rijeka, I'm sorry, I just can't remember.

20 Q. That's all right. I just thought I'd check. Then I think you

21 described to the court, this is page 5602 -- you found some remains,

22 people you recognised, and that was at a hamlet called Dimaci; is that

23 correct? And if you just point to that?

24 A. Yes, it is correct, and I'll point at it. It's a very small here

25 but you can still here that it says Dimaci.

Page 11942

1 Q. And one of the people you described was a gentleman named

2 Stipo Dimac who was between, you thought, 76 to 78 years old. Then I

3 think you described bodies at the hamlet of Mlinari and again if you can

4 just point that out?

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Now, there you described how you heard from eyewitnesses that the

7 people who had been killed had been made to dig their own graves and had

8 then been killed with the tools. That's at page 5604. Can you tell us

9 who told you about that?

10 A. It is true that I said that, and it was described. One of the

11 survivors who witnessed that event, her name is Zdenka Lovric. She's now

12 married and changed her last name. Now, she's Dimac and her mother

13 Mara Lovric was also present and some ten or 12 women and children more

14 but their names, I don't know.

15 Q. And I think you yourself witnessed the injuries. Obviously you

16 can't tell us because you're not a medical man, which of the injuries

17 caused death.

18 Then I think that you described bodies in Buzuci, in front of

19 Marko Buzuk's house and he was the man you mentioned earlier, I think?

20 A. That's right. That is the father of the mentioned Milan Buzuk who

21 first told me about the unfortunate event with Milan Ivandic.

22 Q. Then I think you described at page 5607 the hamlet of Mustanica

23 and there I think you buried Pero Dimac and your father; is that right?

24 A. Yes. That's true. That's about here. It's a stream called

25 Mustanica. It flows towards Stara Rijeka and that is how that part of the

Page 11943

1 village got its name.

2 Q. And I think you also described finding the body of a man named

3 Ante Matanovic who had been killed, you thought, with a firearm. You

4 identified a bullet wound. Were you familiar with bullet wounds as a

5 result of your military service?

6 A. Yes. I know what bullet wounds look like. The entry wound is

7 about the width of a finger and there is a little bit of blood. The exit

8 wound is the size of a fist and it's of an irregular shape. This is

9 generally what bullet wounds look like and this is what I was able to see.

10 Q. Then you described, I think, the -- some graves at a hamlet called

11 Ivandici which I don't think was on the map. Could you point it out? I

12 think you pointed it out last time.

13 A. It's not marked on the map but I will indicate it. It is

14 somewhere in this area. If you go from the direction of Brisevo towards

15 the village called Zecovi it's on the right side. Straight ahead is

16 Kurevo.

17 Q. And then you described a grave near Ivo Zunic's house in the

18 hamlet of Cengije.

19 A. Cengije.

20 Q. Cengije, thank you.

21 A. Cengije.

22 Q. If you can indicate that?

23 A. I can indicate that. It's not marked. It is before the house

24 that we mentioned a little while ago. There is only one house indicated

25 here but the hamlet of Cengije would be approximately here.

Page 11944

1 Q. Now, you described to the Court on the last occasion, this is page

2 5610, that there had been women in the graves, in particular somebody

3 called Kaja Komljen, and you described that eyewitnesses said that other

4 people, Luka Komljen and his son had been tortured. Can you just tell us

5 who told you that?

6 A. Drago Zunic was the eyewitness as well as his wife. I'm not sure

7 what her name is. I think her name is Jelena.

8 Q. Then you described some graves on the Raljas hill. If you can

9 just indicate that on the map?

10 A. It is marked on the map. The peak of the hill, Raljas. We can

11 see it here. The graves are a little lower. The marked road is on the

12 map. There are some houses there. There is a stream a little bit above

13 that. So one group of graves was on one side of the stream and another

14 group of graves was on the other side of the stream.

15 Q. All right. I think you find there -- you found a 14 year old,

16 Luka Mlinar, buried in one. Was he somebody that you knew as a neighbour?

17 A. Yes, of course. I knew him from the day he was born, from the day

18 he was born. He's younger than I am.

19 Q. And then was there also another boy called Mirsad Svraka. Can you

20 just tell us how you were able to identify who that was?

21 A. That boy was not someone we knew but we found his identity card in

22 his clothes so all his particulars were contained in that card, the first

23 and last name, the date of birth and et cetera.

24 Q. And then I think you described some graves in Redak. Can you just

25 indicate on the map where the Redak grave is?

Page 11945

1 A. Yes, I can point it out. The name is Redak. This area here is

2 called Redak. These are the remains of a mine. There are still some

3 remains of ore that was mined there. The road forks to Gornji Ravska on

4 one side and Brisevo on the other and then it continues in the direction

5 of Stara Rijeka, Stari Majdan, Sanski Most and so on. The grave itself

6 was at the fork in the road. There were some large truck tires nearby.

7 It wasn't really a grave. It was just a pile of bodies thrown one on top

8 of another.

9 Q. And?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.

12 Q. I think that then deals with that. Can you look, please, now,

13 briefly at a video you saw last time as well, which is part of the video

14 that Mr. Inayat shot? I just wanted --

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that was referred to at page 5632. And

16 again if you want to point something out, perhaps just say "stop."

17 If we could play that?

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. In this part of the footage,

20 you can see the elementary school in Ljubija, a little bit to the right,

21 in the frame, you can see the premises, the changing rooms of the football

22 club. I can't remember whether that was the name of it but I think it was

23 the soccer club. To the left is the playing field, the soccer field, and

24 next to the field and the school, the road continues and leads to the

25 settlement or the town of Ljubija itself.

Page 11946

1 MS. KORNER: Yes. We can carry on playing.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. In this frame, I think you

4 can see the factory which I think was called Tomeks, the Tomeks factory

5 which is a factory for the construction of -- or the production of metal

6 and explosives. I think it was a relatively new factory and I think that

7 that was what it produced.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. At this point, I think you

10 can see in the background of the frame the low hills of the Kozara. In

11 front of it is Prijedor. Then you can see some mist in the front or

12 clouds. That is approximately where the river Sana flowed, and

13 these along the river were villages which were in inhabited 100 per cent

14 by Serbs, the villages of Rasavci all the way to Ostra Luka and so on so

15 from that direction towards the front, towards Brisevo, is where the

16 members mostly of the 6th Krajina Brigade came and all the way to the left

17 from Prijedor towards Ljubija and Raljas is where the members of the 5th

18 Ljubija Brigade came from.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Here in this picture, you can

21 see very well the remains of the burnt and demolished houses. This is the

22 house that was owned by Nedo Mlinar.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Here you can see the remains

25 of the house that was owned by Andjelko Mlinar, and on the left are the

Page 11947

1 remains of the house owned by Vlado Mlinar, Nedo Mlinar's son. In the

2 background you can see hills. That is where the border is between Brisevo

3 and Rasavci to the left and -- to the right and Ostra Luka to the left and

4 that is the direction from where the infantry came.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Here on the -- in the upper

7 right-hand corner you can see the remains of the school in Brisevo.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Also to the right, on the

10 right side of the screen, you can see the remains of a church. You can

11 see the bell tower and then you can also see the road which leads to the

12 Marijani hamlet. If you continued straight ahead, you would arrive at

13 Sanski Most. On the right side is the village of Raljas, and then further

14 is Ljubija and from that side, from that direction, is where the members

15 of the 5th Kozara Brigade came from.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. On the right side, across

18 from the church, you can see, not so clearly, but you can see the remains

19 of the house of Jozo Jakara. He was killed right next to the house.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Your Honour that will be P1526/S58.

22 Q. Now just to then really conclude, Mr. Atlija, the summary, you

23 described to the Court that armed men came to Brisevo, even after the

24 attack, and you described then how you heard about the women who were

25 raped in Brisevo immediately after the attack. And you gave the ages.

Page 11948

1 Your Honours, this is at page 5640. Again, it was one that was originally

2 redacted.

3 How did you hear about the rapes?

4 A. It was very difficult to get information from the women themselves

5 about what happened, but the members of their families and from what we

6 were able to see of their injuries, it could be concluded which women were

7 raped. Some of them tried to commit suicide. However, because of their

8 conservative Catholic upbringing and because of some prejudices, and I

9 cannot speak for others, but I believe that the majority of them will

10 never state publicly anywhere that they had been raped.

11 Q. And when you talk about their injuries, are you talking about

12 external and internal injuries?

13 A. I am talking about both external and internal injuries. The

14 physical injuries could be cured or healed, treated in some way, but their

15 traumas, I don't know what the expert terminology would be for that, but

16 the psychological consequences of what they had gone through are something

17 that we could not help them with. There were no psychiatrists or any

18 experts who at that point in time could help those women with their

19 experiences. So it was very difficult to do anything for them.

20 Q. Were you able to obtain the necessary sort of medical supplies to

21 treat those injuries?

22 A. We didn't receive any kind of medical supplies from anybody.

23 Q. Then I think you described the two visits to the area by

24 Vojo Kupresanin and Bishop Komarica amongst others. Is that right?

25 A. That's right.

Page 11949

1 Q. And you described at page 5643 the speech that Mr. Kupresanin made

2 to the assembled people there. And I think you personally spoke to him.

3 A. That's right. I did talk to him.

4 Q. And as you said earlier, he was the one who confirmed the units of

5 the military that were involved in the attack.

6 A. That's right. He confirmed that they were, in fact, the

7 6th Kozara and the 5th Krajina Brigade and as regards to all the crimes,

8 he did say that this was a small group which was not under anybody's

9 control. When I asked him how was it possible that two brigades would

10 escape anybody's control, he didn't respond to my question. He didn't say

11 anything.

12 Q. And I think that he also said that he would do everything in

13 respect of General Talic so that the situation would end?

14 A. That's correct. He said that he would personally intervene with

15 General Talic, that things like this have to stop, that we will live with

16 one another again and all of these things will stop as soon as they

17 occupied the Tuzla industrial centre, and so on and so forth.

18 Q. I think he made the suggestion that you should go and speak to

19 Dr. Stakic who was president of the Municipal Assembly, as you understood

20 it, or the Crisis Staff, and I think you and others went as a delegation

21 to him without much success?

22 A. That's right. He directed us to Mr. Stakic and he also

23 recommended that we should telephone to Ljubija, to the headquarters of

24 the Serb command that was situated in Ljubija. However, we didn't manage

25 to achieve anything through this. There were no results.

Page 11950

1 Q. Eventually, did you leave the area for Zagreb on the 17th of

2 November of 1992?

3 A. That's correct. On the 17th of November, 1992, I crossed over

4 into Croatia.

5 Q. Before leaving, I think you had to pay, Your Honours this is page

6 5655 -- you had to pay electricity, phone and other utility bills and you

7 were actually paying for things you didn't have, such as a phone, and did

8 you also have to sign a document saying that you were leaving of your own

9 free will and some kind of a certificate leaving your property to the

10 disposal of -- you weren't quite clear whether it was the Republika Srpska

11 or the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

12 A. Yes. That's correct. I'm not sure what that entity or region at

13 that time was officially called but we did have to sign, yes.

14 Q. Finally, Mr. Atlija, have you ever been back to Brisevo since

15 these events of 1992?

16 A. I went to Brisevo during the exhumation of those killed at

17 Brisevo, and their burial, and later, I visited again the graves of those

18 killed in Brisevo. However, no one has returned to live in Brisevo.

19 People occasionally go to visit the graves there but then they go back to

20 wherever they are now.

21 Q. You can't answer for others, but why haven't you personally gone

22 back to try and restart your life again there?

23 A. One of the reasons, one of very important reasons why people are

24 not going back there and will not go back there and why I personally will

25 not go back there as long as the entity called Republika Srpska exists is

Page 11951

1 as follows: As long as people who are in power there and in Prijedor who

2 organised, planned and took part in all of these crimes, they are again in

3 power, they are again police officers, judges, and they occupy other

4 posts, we do not trust such people and we have a saying that a person,

5 once bitten, twice shy. So that is the reason why we will not go back.

6 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Mr. Atlija.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, we are due to break in any case in

9 five minutes' time. Shall we take the break now and you start straight

10 afterwards? We need to finish today at 6.00 to enable the interpreters in

11 particular to attend a special function so may I suggest to you that we

12 restrict the break to 20 minutes? All right? Or 15 minutes? 15 minutes.

13 Is it okay.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I'm just wondering we've got a second

15 witness coming today, are we likely to get to that second witness today?

16 If we are stopping at 6.00? Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I imagine so. So 15 minutes, all right? Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just before Mr. Ackerman cross-examines,

21 two matters. First, I'm told I misunderstood the way that --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. She has told me you may proceed,

23 Ms. Chuqing has told me.

24 MS. KORNER: For today, we will have to stick to this but we will

25 go back to the old system for the next witness but, Your Honour, I didn't

Page 11952

1 make the transcript an exhibit which is P1527.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was going to draw your attention.

3 MS. KORNER: In addition to that, Your Honour, what unfortunately

4 we left behind which I only realised when I was checking was Mr. Atlija

5 looked at three other photographs which we haven't shown him this time. We

6 are going to get them and we'll just attach them. They are self

7 explanatory in any event.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: My bundle, I do have about four other photos.

9 MS. KORNER: You do, do you?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: With grave and the fields.

11 MS. KORNER: That's right. That's it.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours do have it. For some reason it seems to

14 have escaped us.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I have about four. If they have escaped you. I can

16 imagine what Mr. Ackerman is going to say.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I have them.

18 MS. KORNER: You have them too. In that case I'm quite happy

19 then.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I have one, two, three, four -- four other photos

21 that he was not shown.

22 MS. KORNER: I wonder for a moment. I hate to ask this, does the

23 registry have those as well? If not, can I just borrow Your Honour's

24 bundle for a moment?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. These are the four photos.

Page 11953

1 MS. KORNER: Thanks. Oh, yes. That's right. Having said to

2 Mr. Ackerman -- can I just show them to the witness and he can identify

3 them for Your Honours it makes things easier.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

5 MS. KORNER: If we can just take these -- we did have them and I

6 just missed them. Perhaps if we can show them now to the witness and just

7 get him to identify them?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, I didn't mention anything before because I

9 imagined that you were coming to them later on during your --

10 MS. KORNER: I just couldn't find them in the bundle I was

11 clutching.

12 Q. Mr. Atlija, can you just tell the Court again what we can see

13 there?

14 A. This photograph could be the place at Redak where I mentioned

15 there was a pile of bodies.

16 Q. And the next?

17 A. This is the so-called Raljas cemetery where the majority of those

18 killed at Brisevo were buried.

19 Q. And the next? I think there we see -- sorry.

20 A. This photograph was taken at the same cemetery and you can see

21 gravestones. On one is my father Ilija Atlija, Jozo Jakara and Stipo

22 Dimac. They are all the people whom I mentioned in my earlier statement

23 about -- that they had been killed.

24 Q. I think there is one more or is that the lot? Yes. Are you able

25 to identify that?

Page 11954

1 A. Well, this is not really clear but one can glean, I think, the

2 remains of the church.

3 Q. Yes, right at the top. Yes, thank you. Yes, thank you very much,

4 Mr. Atlija?

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour can they just be added to the

6 photographs -- yes, the photographs, P1524 with the Stakic numbers and the

7 transcript? I think I've already done 1527.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm wondering while we are

12 dealing with photographs if the witness might be shown that series that he

13 was shown earlier the S185 series starting with number 2 through 8, I

14 believe, it would be 47, 60 through 66, I think are the numbers.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

16 Q. Sir, I don't need to put these on the ELMO. I'd like you to --

17 the one that I'm not concerned about, that's the photograph of the church,

18 the balance of those photographs that we saw showing buildings that had

19 been destroyed and damaged, do you -- do you know when those photographs

20 were taken?

21 A. I couldn't tell you the exact date.

22 Q. It appears by looking at them that they were taken quite a long

23 time after the events. For instance, look for instance at S185-8 it's got

24 a number 4766 probably the last photograph in the batch. It looks like

25 it's been so long that trees have grown up inside that building, doesn't

Page 11955

1 it?

2 A. Yes. It is. But you know, when something burns, ash is produced

3 and ash is a substance which boosts the fertility of the soil so that I

4 cannot really say whether this was taken six months later or two years

5 later, ten years later. I can't really tell you because I wasn't the one

6 who took those photographs.

7 Q. Do you think you can grow a 12-foot tree in six months? A 3-metre

8 tree, 4-metre tree?

9 A. Well, I don't know how tall is this tree. I just mentioned as an

10 example. I can't really say six months later a year or two years later.

11 I really cannot answer that.

12 Q. Well if you just look at the photograph, sir, there is leaves

13 coming out the top where the roof would have been. That has to be at

14 least four metres high, doesn't it?

15 A. Yes. I see that the leaves are at about the roof level but how

16 tall that is, again, I cannot tell you but to me it is relevant, some

17 plants grow faster, some grow slower. I'm not an expert on these things.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stop this. Point taken, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Move to the next --


22 Q. Sir, between the 18th and 20th of October of the year 2000, you

23 gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. You recall doing that,

24 I take it?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 11956

1 Q. Let me just tell you now that if at any time during the questions

2 I have about that you would like to consult that statement and look at it,

3 I can arrange for you to have it. So just tell me if you'd like to have

4 it, okay?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest we have it ready and give it to him

6 straight away rather than waste time later on, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: That would be fine with me, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So usher, please. Which statement are you referring

9 to the one of the 18th to 20th October?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So please, usher, could you hand the

12 witness that statement, please?


14 Q. The part I want to speak about first is -- it's actually the

15 second page of your statement. It has the number 3 on it, in the English

16 version. Where you told the investigator from the Tribunal, "I have

17 attended several conferences where the topic of discussion was the Bosnian

18 war." You say they were mainly attended by journalists, local politicians

19 and refugees. We never talked of specific incidents but focused primarily

20 on the general situation in Bosnia before the war. In some of those

21 conferences, I too addressed the participants." Okay?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. Where were these conferences held?

24 A. They were all held in Germany.

25 Q. And where in Germany?

Page 11957

1 A. In Germany, around Frankfurt, that is all I can tell you. They

2 were so-called jugendhaus, which is youth hostels, in some small places in

3 villages in localities where young people would gather in the presence of

4 local politicians and journalists and they talked about politics and war.

5 They mostly looked like some workshops, like roundtables rather than

6 conferences.

7 Q. Sir, if you will listen to my questions, and just answer the

8 question I ask you, we will be finished here much quicker. My question

9 was where in Germany were the conferences held and let's try to do that,

10 and if you want to elaborate on an answer I'm certainly going to let you

11 do that but you should try to answer my question as quickly and easily as

12 you can, okay?

13 A. One of the places where such a conference was held is called

14 Ingelheim near Mainz. I don't know the names of all those villages.

15 Q. Okay. That's fine. Who sponsored these conferences?

16 A. I'm afraid I might go wrong but I think that at least one of those

17 conferences was organised -- it was called Hessische Landespolitische

18 Zentralle or something like that. But I suppose some others participated

19 too.

20 Q. And you said in your statement that you actually spoke at some of

21 these conferences. How many of the conferences were you -- did you

22 actually speak at?

23 A. Three, maybe four. I'm afraid to give you a wrong figure.

24 Q. What was your speech about? What did you talk about at each of

25 these conferences?

Page 11958

1 A. Those conferences discussed generally the relations in Europe.

2 For instance, what the relations were on the eve of World War II or after

3 it, the relations in the Balkan peninsula in the former Yugoslavia, the

4 relations before the war broke out, the possibilities for reinstating some

5 more or less normal state of affairs. And then people confronted our

6 opinions. Of course there were different opinions.

7 Q. Well, that's what I'm a bit confused about and just see if you can

8 help me, will you? First of all, you told the --

9 A. I shall be happy to do so.

10 Q. First of all you told the Prosecutor's investigators that you

11 attended several conferences where the topic of discussion was the Bosnian

12 war. Now, I assume that would have been the war in 1992 and thereafter,

13 when you say the topic of discussion was the Bosnian war, that would be

14 the war you're talking about?

15 A. Yes, that's right. Mostly, principally about the war in Bosnia,

16 perhaps I wasn't precise enough.

17 Q. Well, but then the next thing you said was that it was focused

18 primarily on the general situation in Bosnia before the war. Now, which

19 one of those was it? It was a discussion about the events before the war

20 or was it a discussion about the events during the war?

21 A. Well, the most correct answer would be if I told you that

22 the -- that the attention was principally paid to the causes which brought

23 about the war in Bosnia, the causes, different political stances,

24 different political influences. Those were the things that relate -- the

25 chief emphasis on and we discussed very little some combat operations on

Page 11959

1 the ground and things like that.

2 Q. Can you tell us who Luka Gavranovic is?

3 A. I met Luka Gavranovic in 1993. At that time I know that he worked

4 for the Croatian information bureau in Zagreb and he was one of those to

5 whom I gave one of my first statements about the developments in Brisevo.

6 Whether he was the chief of that centre or whether he was just an ordinary

7 official, rank and file official, I can't really say.

8 Q. What is the Croatian information centre?

9 A. As far as I know, the Croatian information centre is an

10 organisation which collected information about the war in Bosnian Croatia,

11 excuse me in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Croatia. Whether it still exists,

12 whether they still do that or is it perhaps some other organisation today,

13 I don't know.

14 Q. I take it you never worked for that centre or was -- you were

15 never a part of that centre? Is that a fair statement?

16 A. It is, yes. I never worked for any such organisation.

17 Q. This -- the map that is Prosecution Exhibit 1523/S184, that's -- I

18 don't know if you -- you probably don't know the map I'm talking about,

19 you probably ought to be able to see it. So would you take a look at it,

20 please? P1523/S184. It's annex E to the documents. You know which map

21 I'm speaking of now, don't you?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. It's the case, isn't it, that this Luka Gavranovic assisted you in

24 the drawing and preparation of this map?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 11960

1 Q. And I take it that means that much of the information contained on

2 this map, especially regarding these various units, was information that

3 Mr. Gavranovic claimed to know, that you weren't certain about?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's divide the question into two parts,

5 Mr. Ackerman, because in one part you are alleging and asking the witness

6 to confirm or deny that Mr. Gavranovic or whatever his name claimed to

7 know, and secondly, you are also alleging that the witness wasn't certain

8 about these facts, which may not be the case. So I would suggest to you

9 that you either rephrase the question --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll rephrase it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- or you separate it into two questions.


13 Q. Parts of this map were based on information that Mr. Gavranovic

14 claimed to know about, weren't -- isn't that true?

15 A. I wouldn't be able to say yes or no. Mr. Gavranovic helped me to

16 draw this map but more technical matters, drawing the map, the distances

17 and some of the features. As for the facts from which direction, which

18 unit advanced, whether this is the 6th Krajina or the 5th Kozara, which

19 battalion, those were some things I heard from some officers who were not

20 far from places where I hid or from some eyewitnesses, the survivors in

21 Brisevo. These facts are the facts that I knew, not something that

22 Mr. Gavranovic knew.

23 Q. So nothing on here was information given to you by Mr. Gavranovic

24 but all information that you had knowledge of either personally or that

25 you had heard from someone?

Page 11961

1 A. Yes, that is right. Mr. Gavranovic received information from me

2 rather than the other way around.

3 Q. I want to go back to your statement now on a different matter. On

4 the next page, after the one we referred to, there is a paragraph that

5 begins with, "I was never a member of any political party." And then what

6 you tell the investigator is, "Before the war, the interethnic relations

7 amongst different groups was extremely good."

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. You were from Brisevo, right?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. And what was the ethnic makeup of Brisevo?

12 A. Well, 100 per cent Croats, a few Serb women married to Croats.

13 They also lived in Brisevo.

14 Q. And you told us a little earlier, looking at one of the

15 photographs that showed mist apparently rising up from the river, that all

16 the villages along that river were Serb villages, correct? 100 per cent

17 Serb villages?

18 A. Almost 100 per cent. I also know that there were some mixed

19 marriages but mostly, not mostly, almost 100 per cent -- the population of

20 these villages were almost 100 per cent Serbs that you can see on that

21 photograph but if we move to the left, with the -- to where you can't see

22 on the photograph, Carakovo, Biscani, Hambarine, Rizvanovici, and so on

23 and so forth, and their population was almost 100 per cent Muslim.

24 Q. There were several villages, the Kozarac area, Jakupovici, those

25 areas, Trnopolje down there, that were 100 per cent Muslim, weren't they?

Page 11962

1 A. That's right. They were across the Sana on the other bank the

2 Sana, the foot hills of Kozara and this is from this part -- this side of

3 the Sana, towards Brisevo.

4 Q. My question is this: If interethnic relations amongst the

5 different groups was extremely good, why were they all living apart from

6 each other like that, why were they living separately, ghetto-ed apart

7 from each other?

8 A. The villages were almost ethnically pure but the distance between

9 those villages was not big. They attended the same schools, worked for

10 the same companies, played basketball or football together or practised

11 karate and other sports. I did not notice during those years before the

12 war that the ethnic relations were disrupted in any way. We played

13 instruments together, played music together, danced together, played

14 various games together and I'd say that these relations were good. Why

15 the villages were Serb or Muslim or Croat almost 100 per cent, well, to

16 tell you the truth I'd never really given it a thought before.

17 Q. Well, that was the case in 1989 and in 1989, everybody knew that

18 there were villages that were Muslim villages that were Croat and villages

19 that were Serb, didn't they? That wasn't something that came about as a

20 result of the elections or the war or anything else, right?

21 A. The elections before the unfortunate war in the former Yugoslavia

22 were no elections, because you could vote only for representatives

23 nominated by the then League of Communists of Yugoslavia or somebody

24 against them. There were no democratic elections in which you could

25 properly elect freely and democratically amongst a number of candidates

Page 11963

1 and amongst a number of political options.

2 Q. Well, I didn't ask you about the elections. I'm going to give up

3 on the question I actually asked you because I think you've already

4 answered it.

5 Page -- the same page of your statement, you were asked to give an

6 example of Serb propaganda and the example you came up with was this:

7 "Once in 1991, the Prijedor Radio announced that a Muslim doctor,

8 Mirza Mujadzic had given injections to pregnant Serb women so that they

9 would give birth to girls and in this way, reduce the Serb male

10 population." That's what you said, right?

11 A. Yes. And it spread very fast indeed.

12 Q. Sorry?

13 A. It spread, such things, such news spread very fast by word of

14 mouth. That kind of propaganda.

15 Q. Did you actually hear that announcement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you -- do you personally know anybody that believed that? Do

18 you know anybody that's dumb enough to believe that?

19 A. Unfortunately, regrettably, there were some people working with me

20 who did believe those things. Unfortunately. I repeat it once again.

21 And we tried to tell them that if somebody had such an injection he would

22 win the Nobel Prize for medicine because it does not exist in the world.

23 However their heads, their heads were full of such things. They simply

24 could not not believe it, and they adhered to that, they held on to it, as

25 if it was a sacrosanct thing. That is so and it must be so. I mean it is

Page 11964

1 regrettable but it is true.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Male, females,

3 according to the temperature.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Sorry.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, I'm not -- if the temperature is constantly

6 hotter than usual, then they produce only females. If the temperature

7 drops, they produce males. So Mr. Mirza Mujadzic may have taken the idea

8 from there. Yes. Let's go -- let's proceed, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you for that aside, Your Honour. I don't

10 know whether to say I appreciate it but thank you for it.

11 Q. Couldn't you just look around and see, sir, women going around

12 with boy babies? Wouldn't that kind of obvious that it was not true?

13 A. I could, but it didn't have anything to do with me, with what I

14 could see or what I believed in because I didn't decide on anything. It

15 was more important what other people believed in and what other people

16 advocated.

17 Q. So basically it was Serbs that were believing this story?

18 A. When I say Serbs, please do not take it that I mean all Serbs. I

19 do not think that all the Serbs in the world believe something like that.

20 Either in Serbia or in Bosnia or in Prijedor but I'm saying that some

21 Serbs who worked with me and I can't remember all the names, after all it

22 was ten years ago so many things have faded away even in my memory.

23 Q. All right. I think we've talked about that enough. Let's go

24 to -- I'm now going to page 12 of your statement. And I'm in the English

25 version so I'm not sure where it is in B/C/S version but it deals with

Page 11965

1 soldiers you saw, the paragraph I'm talking about: "The soldiers I that

2 saw were wearing very narrow red armbands."

3 The part of that I want to refer you to is the very last sentence

4 of that paragraph. You said, "All the officers spoke in an Ekavian

5 dialect which is spoken in mainland Serbia. However, this does not mean

6 that these officers were from mainland Serbia because I know that the

7 official dialect used in the former JNA was the Ekavian dialect,"

8 correct?

9 A. It is correct. I did my military service with the JNA and the

10 official language, yes, was the Serbian dialect, the Ekavian dialect.

11 Q. You speak in there of seeing four or five officers and you say

12 that you could tell that they were officers by the insignia they were

13 wearing on their epaulettes, the officer insignia on their epaulettes. Do

14 you know in war situations whether officers remove those rank insignia so

15 they will not be identified as officers? Do you know whether that happens

16 or not?

17 A. Not only that this happens. It was a rule. It was a rule in the

18 Yugoslav People's Army, at least when I served in it. And that is why it

19 struck me that those people had not removed the epaulettes from the

20 shoulders, they still -- they kept them.

21 Q. All right. On the same page, talking about the attack and the

22 units involved, the very last paragraph on page 12, you simply mention

23 that you saw no policemen involved in the attack, and that's also the

24 case, isn't it?

25 A. I didn't see police officers.

Page 11966

1 Q. I want to now talk with you for just a moment about the statement

2 that you actually gave to the Croatian information centre. The statement

3 itself indicates -- it's dated January 30, 1993, which I think indicates

4 the date that that statement was given, correct?

5 A. I think that is correct.

6 Q. And a great deal of what you said in that statement was based upon

7 what you'd been told by other people and not your own personal knowledge,

8 correct?

9 A. It's true that there are parts that are based on information I

10 received from other people, but in my statements here I tried to separate

11 what I personally saw and experienced and what I heard from somebody else.

12 Q. Yes. I understand that. The point I will make, and I think

13 you'll agree with me, is that you later learned that a number of the

14 things that you had said in that statement, based on what other people had

15 told you, were simply not correct, didn't you?

16 A. I don't remember stating that there were things that were not true

17 in my statements. I don't remember that it says anywhere here that

18 something that is in the statement was not true.

19 Q. Well, look, for instance, -- do you have that statement? Is it

20 attached to the one that you were given? It was in my...

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher? Did you give the witness his statement to

22 the Croatian information centre?

23 MS. KORNER: No, it's here.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's annex A with the ERN number 01056384.

25 THE WITNESS: I thank you.

Page 11967


2 Q. I want you to look at page 3 and I have a few questions about that

3 page. It's page 3 in the English version. It's underneath the paragraph

4 that says, "16th grave." The paragraph begins with the language, "As to

5 the Brisevo casualties."

6 A. [Interpretation] That's right.

7 Q. It says, "As to the Brisevo casualties, we found out about the

8 ways in which they were murdered." When you use the word "we," does that

9 include you?

10 A. Not in all of these 68 cases, regarding all of the 68 persons

11 killed.

12 Q. So when you say, "We found out," you may be referring to other

13 people and not yourself? You're not part of that "we"?

14 A. With the majority of those killed out of those 68 people, I was

15 present when they were buried. So with most of them, I could see the

16 cause of death, but not with all of them. I stress that. And when I say

17 "we" here, I mean us survivors who buried those people but I did not

18 attend every single funeral. That is also stated somewhere in the

19 statement. I said that I was not present at every single funeral.

20 Q. I totally understand that. Look at the next paragraph, it begins

21 with the name Milan Buzuk. You say about that, "When we found him." Did

22 you find him? Or did someone else find him?

23 A. Milan Buzuk, his mother was the first person to see where he was

24 killed. Naturally she fled from that place and later Franjo Mlinar,

25 Viktor Tozan, myself, Branko Atlija and someone else found him. I was

Page 11968

1 present then and I saw everything very clearly and all the facts are known

2 to me.

3 Q. In the paragraph that begins with the name "Ivica Mlinar," just a

4 couple more paragraphs down, in the middle of that paragraph you make this

5 statement: "First they would sever their muscles and tendons so that a

6 victim was in no position to escape or defend himself/herself." You've

7 said subsequent that that part of your statement was not correct, haven't

8 you?

9 A. I think that there is a small misunderstanding here. I didn't say

10 that a part of the statement was not true but maybe that it was

11 unfortunately termed. I didn't mean that they cut off the muscle or

12 remove it from the body, but I'm talking about the wounds indicating that

13 the tendon was severed which would separate the muscle from the bone so

14 that the person is unable to move that limb any more, is unable to defend

15 themselves to offer resistance or to flee and I think somewhere later, I

16 explained this.

17 Q. Go, please, to about two pages later, the paragraph begins with,

18 "Beside the above-mentioned 6th Krajina Brigade," it's a long paragraph.

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... of that paragraph, you say

21 this: "The 6th Krajina Brigade numbered 3500 armed men at the time."

22 Now, the fact is that you have no idea what the number of armed men in the

23 6th Krajina Brigade at the time was. Isn't that the case?

24 A. That was my assumption. I did not know then, nor do I know now,

25 exactly how many people there were in the 6th Krajina Brigade. This is

Page 11969

1 based on the knowledge I gained in the JNA; what is part of a platoon, a

2 company, a unit, a brigade, a corps. That is what I base my estimate on.

3 Also how many men would comprise a reserve brigade also.

4 Q. So that's -- by the book, that's the number of men who should be

5 in a brigade?

6 A. Approximately that number of men.

7 Q. Were you aware that some units in the JNA had desertion rates of

8 as high as 90 per cent? That kind of attrition? Did you know that was

9 going on?

10 A. At that time, I didn't know that.

11 Q. Do you know that now?

12 A. I know it because you've just told me that.

13 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I was go about to get to my feet

14 and object to the form of that question. There is no evidence at all

15 before this Court at this time that that's what the rate --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: There certainly is.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It was mentioned.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It is something that was mentioned about a month ago

20 by one of the witnesses, and I think there was a document which specified

21 that there was heavy -- quite a considerable desertion -- not 90 per cent,

22 no.

23 MS. KORNER: I don't recall any evidence that there was 90 per

24 cent desertion in July of 1992.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: 90 per cent is being suggested by Mr. Ackerman.

Page 11970

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: But we did see a document in which it was alleged

3 that desertion --

4 MS. KORNER: No, no, I saw that.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Was rampant.

6 MS. KORNER: I took the witness through the document myself but I

7 don't recall any recollection --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: 90 per cent, no, 90 per cent is Mr. Ackerman's

9 assessment. He comes from Texas, you know.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: My recollection is this. The strength of the unit

11 this person commanded -- I think it was supposed to be 1500 and I think

12 there were 78 people.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... To the bare

15 essentials. I mean, I think he's answered you in a way which should be

16 enough for you to proceed to the next question because more or less you

17 know what value you would give to his assessment.


19 Q. A bit further down in the same paragraph, sir, you say there were

20 two tanks on Redak hill, isn't it the case that you later said, well,

21 there was really only one tank on Redak hill?

22 A. I think to this very day that there were two.

23 Q. Did you ever tell anybody that you were mistaken about that and

24 that you really only knew of one tank there?

25 A. I don't remember. Perhaps I said that one tank could be clearly

Page 11971

1 seen, that it could be clearly seen, but judging by the detonations and

2 the firing, I think that it was clear that there were two tanks.

3 Q. On page 10 of the English version of the statement, it

4 begins -- there is a paragraph that begins with, "Regarding interethnic

5 relations of Croats and Serbs." Do you see that?

6 A. Yes. That's right. I know. Thank you.

7 Q. What you say in there that it was only in 1991, two years before

8 you gave this statement, that Serbs started calling themselves Serbs, that

9 before that, they had called themselves Vlasi or Orthodox. Is that true?

10 A. That was the usual thing. We called ourselves Sokci and when they

11 came to our villages, they would say that they were going to the Sokcis'

12 and we would say that we were going to the Vlasi but this was not taken in

13 any derogatory way and it wasn't taken in a bad way.

14 Q. So, what you're saying is it's true that Serbs didn't call

15 themselves Serbs until 1991?

16 A. The majority of those that I know, whom I socialised with and

17 worked with, became, let me put it that way, hard-core -- they became only

18 Serbs and nothing else during those years. Before it wasn't so important.

19 Most frequently we would call ourselves Vlasi, Sokci, Muslims. Only later

20 did this polarisation come about that they called themselves only Serbs

21 and nothing else, and then on our Croatian, the Sokac side, we became only

22 Croats and nothing else.

23 Q. Isn't it the case that during that period of 1992, that you did

24 not, yourself, personally, witness the commission of any crime?

25 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, can we make it clear what period of 1992?

Page 11972

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: The spring of 1992, when you're talking about the

3 attack on Brisevo, the events that you've been -- you have spoken about in

4 your direct testimony. Isn't it true that during that period you were not

5 an eyewitness to any crime?

6 A. It's true that I was the eyewitness to the killing of a person

7 called Pero Dimac. I saw the killing and torture of that person myself,

8 from a distance of 15 to 20 metres at the most. The other actual

9 killings, I did not see. And this is clearly stated somewhere in the

10 statement.

11 Q. Well, again, I find myself confused and I'm going to ask you to

12 help me. There is a statement, and I don't know quite how to identify it,

13 it's got an ERN number of 03042383 in the English version. It's a

14 statement that involves questions and answers.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Incidentally, I didn't know whether anyone was

16 going to refer to this statement. But I had in mind to draw the attention

17 of you, Ms. Korner, in particular, that I have -- before I allow any

18 questions on this statement, I need a clarification. It seems that this

19 statement is made by Ivo Simo Atlija, born on the 3rd of March, 1929. If

20 that is the case, it's certainly not the witness that we have, because the

21 witness was born on the 19th of May of 1963.

22 MS. KORNER: I think the best thing is if the witness -- if Your

23 Honour can perhaps -- or I can, can be asked if he knows who

24 Ivo Simo Atlija, born on the 3rd of March, 1929, was -- is.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Also I wouldn't like to mention the residence, the

Page 11973

1 address, but perhaps if the document is shown to the witness --

2 MS. KORNER: I think perhaps he can help -- I didn't see --

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, if it is not this witness who

4 made this statement, I have no interest in asking questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman I was waiting for someone to refer to

6 this statement because until that happened, I was not considering it as

7 being tendered in evidence.

8 MS. KORNER: I think one of the difficulties is when the searches

9 are does you quite often get somebody with the same first and second name.

10 I hadn't picked up that clearly this hadn't --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know of anyone Ivanka Atlija. Do you know of

12 anyone by the name of Ivanka Atlija.

13 MS. KORNER: I think the witness can tell us who this man is.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know both the mentioned persons,

15 Mr. Ivo, the son of Simo, Atlija is my cousin. He's an elderly man. You

16 said that you don't need the address but I could tell you the address.

17 And the woman that you mentioned, Ivanka Atlija, I know her. I am

18 Ivo Atlija, the son of Ilija, that's how you can tell us apart and he's

19 the son of Simo.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Do we need this document, Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, we don't.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Ackerman, next question.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: The document I suppose should be removed from Your

24 Honour's packets.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You don't have to worry about that.

Page 11974

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. All right. I want to now go to some of your testimony in the

3 Stakic case, sir. And I'm now going to refer to page, for the record,

4 5557 of your testimony. You talk there about seeing the events and the

5 fighting at Hambarine and being able to observe that, correct?

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. And there was shooting coming from both sides there, wasn't there?

8 A. Correct. There was shooting from both sides.

9 Q. And what you told the Court in Stakic was that when the shots

10 would come from Hambarine the Serb soldiers moving forward would lie down?

11 A. Yes. That's correct. I said that. And I said that that I didn't

12 know whether that was because they were hit and wounded or whether they

13 were just seeking shelter.

14 Q. All right. We are now going to speak about the Brisevo situation.

15 You spoke about 24th of June, 1992, when some arrests were made in

16 Brisevo. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes. I remember.

18 Q. And these arrests were actually made by police officers, weren't

19 they?

20 A. That's right. They were wearing blue police uniforms.

21 Q. And I think you told the Court in Stakic that one of those police

22 officers involved in those arrests was a Croat by the name of Bjekic or

23 that you at least thought he was a Croat. Is that true?

24 A. Yes. That's true. I think he's a Croat by ethnicity and I think

25 that his number -- his name is not Jekic but Bjekic. There is a "B" at

Page 11975

1 the beginning of his last name.

2 Q. I think I said Bjekic. At least I'm looking at the word Bjekic. I

3 hope I said that. But in any event your answer is correct. I want you to

4 see P1523. That's this map again. Do you still have it? Do you still

5 have it over there?

6 A. Yes, yes. It's here.

7 Q. In your testimony, you talked about a day when you went from

8 Brisevo to go swimming. Can you show us on the map where you went to go

9 swimming?

10 A. I can show it to you even though that little lake is not marked

11 here. It's somewhere here. It belongs to the village of Stara Rijeka and

12 they are actually -- the lake is something that was created after the ore

13 was dug so it's a hole from where ore was extracted and then later, a lake

14 is formed in that hole.

15 Q. Now, you had talked earlier in your testimony about how your

16 village was completely blockaded, that you almost felt like you were under

17 siege in your village, and how the only food you could get was what was

18 available in the village and that you could get out of gardens and things

19 of that nature. I'm wondering how it is that you could leave your village

20 and go off swimming at Stara Rijeka?

21 A. We could go because this pool was closer to Brisevo, and it was

22 further away from the road from Stara Rijeka to Ljubija, and that was the

23 road that was under the control of Serb soldiers. We were able to get to

24 the road, the pool was before you got to the road. So we could go to the

25 pool and swim and do other things.

Page 11976

1 Q. What you just showed us on the map, unless you were wrong, to go

2 from Brisevo to where you said the pool was, you have to cross at least

3 one road. Am I wrong about that?

4 A. No, you're not wrong. You could go and -- down one road. There

5 are also roads here that are not marked on the map at all. They are local

6 roads, and I mentioned in the statement that the map is not very precise

7 because it was drawn by hand. This is not a topographical map where I

8 could locate down to one metre where something was, where the road was,

9 where the pool was, where the river was, and so on.

10 Q. Well, just seems to me if you could leave the village to go off

11 swimming you could also leave the village to go off and get food, couldn't

12 you?

13 A. That is only something that you think. Somebody tried to go to

14 Gornja Ravska village and he was beaten up and returned. They also waited

15 for him on the road that leads from Ljubija to Stara Rijeka and where the

16 road to Gornja Ravska branches off.

17 Q. When you went to Stara Rijeka to go swimming, I assume you came

18 back home and in that trip, were you ever beaten up?

19 A. I did not encounter anybody on that road who would beat me up.

20 Q. There came a time when the Serbs were demanding that your village,

21 Brisevo, surrender a weapon called a Bofors, weren't they?

22 A. That's right. First we were shelled for one day, and then they

23 set terms that we should surrender all our weapons, including the Bofors

24 gun which was something that we never even had.

25 Q. And your understanding of that weapon, I think is that it's a

Page 11977

1 three-barrel anti-aircraft weapon; is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And isn't it the case that the Serbs believed that you had that

4 gun because a Croat by the name of Nikola Juric told them that you did?

5 A. I also heard that information later. Nikola Juric from Gornja

6 Ravska, if that's the person you're thinking of.

7 Q. That's the person I'm thinking of. Do you know -- did he just

8 make that story up or had there once been such a gun in Brisevo?

9 A. In all of my 30 years of life at Brisevo, I never saw such a gun,

10 not even when military exercises were being conducted, and there were such

11 exercises sometimes at Brisevo so there was never any gun like that used.

12 Q. I'd like to now talk about the two meetings that you had with

13 Vojo Kupresanin. There was one around the middle of August and at the

14 time you had that meeting, you knew I take it that Vojo Kupresanin was

15 president of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 Q. You said in your testimony in Stakic that he said that he was the

18 President of the Serb Autonomous Region of Krajina. You know that there

19 was no entity called the Serb Autonomous Region of Krajina, don't you?

20 A. At that time, names were changed overnight. There was the Serb

21 Autonomous Region, Krajina, Autonomous Region Krajina, Serb Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and eventually Republika Srpska. Whether at that time

23 it was the official name Autonomous Region of Krajina or the

24 Serb Autonomous Region of Krajina I really wouldn't be able to tell you

25 now.

Page 11978

1 Q. Do you know there was never an entity called the Serb Autonomous

2 Region of Krajina?

3 A. I don't know. I don't know that it never existed. I even think

4 that such an official name was mentioned somewhere, whether you can find

5 it in some document, on a piece of paper, I just don't know.

6 Q. The answer is you don't know but you think you heard that?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. In your meetings with Kupresanin, you begged him to help you leave

9 Brisevo and cross the Croatian border, didn't you?

10 A. That's true.

11 Q. And you said to him, in your testimony you said, "We asked to

12 be -- to let us leave from there, that the killings should stop, that they

13 wanted that territory, then they should keep it." Right?

14 A. Right. I said if they wanted that territory so let them have it

15 but just let those much beleaguered people leave that area and stop the

16 killing because it couldn't end up in anything good.

17 Q. Now, in your testimony at page 5643, you said, "We asked to be --

18 to let us leave from there." When you say, "We asked," did you ask? Or

19 did somebody else ask on your behalf?

20 A. I talked with Mr. Kupresanin personally, and I was speaking in my

21 own name and the name of the survivors of Brisevo, that is why I said, "We

22 want to leave," not only myself but all those who had survived in Brisevo

23 wanted to leave.

24 Q. And Mr. Kupresanin was apparently unable to help you in that

25 regard, correct?

Page 11979

1 A. Mr. Kupresanin promised to help us as best as he could, that he

2 would first intercede with General Talic because individuals, a group of

3 soldiers, continued to come and persecute us and loot us, even after those

4 killings, he said that he would intercede with General Talic, that it

5 would end, that he would do whatever he could do but that he would help us

6 to leave the area.

7 Q. Well, in fact what he told you was that he couldn't help you leave

8 the area, that you should go see Milomir Stakic about that, didn't he?

9 A. He said that for assistance, that we could ask for assistance from

10 Mr. Stakic, and if nothing came out of that, and if we couldn't leave

11 then, then he gave us his telephone number and promised that we'd be ail

12 to make a phone call from the headquarters -- from the Serb headquarters

13 in Ljubija, that is what he promised. We could go to Ljubija, back and

14 forth, two or three of us, we could make our phone calls from

15 Mr. Kupresanin or from Bishop Komarica's office or from Caritas's office.

16 Nobody stopped us from doing that but unfortunately at that time we still

17 were not able to leave that area, unfortunately at that time we could not

18 do that yet.

19 Q. And it's the case, isn't it, that Bishop Komarica, who was also

20 there, opposed you in your efforts to leave the area, didn't he? He

21 didn't want you to leave?

22 A. He thought that we should stay at all cost in the area because the

23 Croats had lived there for more than 700 years, that our homesteads were

24 there, the graves of our forefathers were, that it was our turf, which in

25 a way is all true, but we thought we believed that if it was better to

Page 11980

1 leave and survive rather than stay and get killed on our turf.

2 Q. But the other thing that you talked to Mr. Kupresanin about was

3 the violence going on on that territory and how the killing needed to be

4 stopped and what he told you was that he would talk with General Talic and

5 try to intercede and to get the situation under control, correct?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. And do you know if he ever talked to General Talic?

8 A. No. I don't. I don't know if he talked with General Talic

9 personally but when he came to Ljubija the next time, he bid me to come

10 aside and asked me what the situation was, has anything been done to

11 improve the situation?

12 Q. And what did you tell him?

13 A. And I told him that nothing had changed except that Juro Dimac and

14 Zdenka Lovric and I could freely go to Ljubija to make phone calls.

15 Q. So he -- can we conclude that one of two things happened? He

16 either did not take it up with General Talic or General Talic was unable

17 to effect any kind of a change?

18 A. Well, I could agree with you that it was -- yes, that one of those

19 two possibilities is what probably happened.

20 Q. There was a second occasion, then, that you saw Kupresanin at the

21 Ljubija church, right?

22 A. Right. In front of the church, not inside the church.

23 Q. And again you asked him to help you move out of there and that you

24 were willing to go just about anywhere? Correct?

25 A. Correct. And Kupresanin told us again that he'd help us in so far

Page 11981

1 as he could do that. He even offered that two or three of us could go to

2 Banja Luka that he would put us into a hotel and from there it would be

3 easier for us to establish contact with the UNPROFOR or whatever other

4 organisation, whatever they were called, through which we could perhaps

5 leave, that is move out of that territory. However, we never went to

6 Banja Luka.

7 Q. Do you know whether he helped any other people that way or not, by

8 taking them to Banja Luka and then getting them help to leave from there?

9 Do you know about anybody else that was helped by Mr. Kupresanin in that

10 way?

11 A. No, I don't, because with other -- what shall I call them,

12 refugees, victims of those war, we had no contact. We were not in touch

13 with them. We could go make phone calls to Dr. Stakic, no, sorry, we

14 could make phone calls from Mr. Kupresanin's office or from Bishop

15 Komarica's office but we had nobody else in Banja Luka to get in touch

16 with.

17 Q. You were actually finally able to leave, weren't you?

18 A. Yes. Eventually, at long last, after a lot of red tape, payments

19 and negotiations, persuasions, yes, thank God, we managed to leave.

20 Q. Page 5655 of your testimony in Stakic, you were asked this

21 question: "Did you have to sign any documents before you left?" And the

22 answer you gave, and I'm quoting, sir, "We were supposed to sign that we

23 were leaving of our own free will and then also sign a certificate leaving

24 our property at the disposal of I can't remember whether it was called

25 Republika Srpska or the Autonomous Region of Serbian Krajina at that

Page 11982

1 point. I can't say with certainty now." Did you actually then didn't

2 wind up signing a document? You were supposed to but you didn't? Is

3 that -- am I -- am I interpreting that answer correctly?

4 A. No. I don't think you are. We had to sign these documents, all

5 these documents that we had paid our electricity, water and whatever other

6 bills. We had to hand them over at the secretariat of the interior in

7 Prijedor and in exchange we received from them a paper which was the

8 authorisation to move out and even that paper was seized from us as we

9 mounted the buses when the convoy was formed.

10 Q. So you actually signed a piece of paper leaving your property at

11 the disposal of some government?

12 A. Yes, that's right. We signed it.

13 Q. And let me ask you this: In terms of preservation, do you think

14 it would be better to just abandon your property and leave it totally

15 unattended or to leave it at the disposal of and in the custody of a

16 government agency?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You want to hear what I think about

20 that?


22 Q. I don't know?

23 MS. KORNER: Well, yes, Your Honour, I do. He was asked and he

24 should be allowed to answer.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Now that the question has been put and allowed.

Page 11983

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, okay.


3 Q. Go ahead.

4 A. Okay. I personally think that only I and my lawyer, my solicitors

5 or somebody else I authorise may dispose of my property and nobody else.

6 But since at that time the lives of 300 or more people were in question,

7 they were worth more than all the property there. I mean, I think that

8 these people are worth more than all the property in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 I mean any material value, I do not think that there is any material value

10 that can be compared in terms of its worth with the human life. That is

11 what I think.

12 Q. Do you know that by the Dayton Accords that you could go back

13 there today and request your property back and it would have to be given

14 to you?

15 A. Yes. I am aware of so-called certificates about surrendering

16 property have been proclaimed invalid and vacated. I am aware that I

17 could get my property back, and some of these things are also in the hands

18 of lawyers in Prijedor. But I think that nothing will come out of this

19 return.

20 Q. You were asked a question by Ms. Korner at the end of your

21 testimony about whether you even wanted to return or not. I want to know

22 if you know that according to the authorities, I think it's SFOR or maybe

23 Mr. Ashdown's office, I'm not sure, but according to one of those

24 authorities, one of the easiest and safest places to return to is the

25 Prijedor municipality. Are you aware of that?

Page 11984

1 MS. KORNER: Could we have a reference to that reference? Which

2 report you're referring to?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: It's the report you attached to the witness

4 protection motion.

5 MS. KORNER: Could I have an actual quote.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't have the exact quote. I don't have it in

7 front of me.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I may have it here.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have it available, Ms. Sutherland?

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no, but Ms. Gustin is having a look.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I know I don't have it here.

12 MS. KORNER: All right, Your Honour, I won't pursue this. The

13 question has been asked.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go. Perhaps I could ask the witness

15 whether he feels he will agree with that assessment irrespective of where

16 it's coming from.

17 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I think the question is asked. I think the witness

19 is ready to answer if we just let him.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The question, sir, was this: You were asked a

21 question by Ms. Korner at the end of your testimony about whether you even

22 wanted to return or not. I want to know if you know that according to

23 authorities, I think it's SFOR, that's, you know what SFOR is or maybe

24 Mr. -- Lord Ashdown's office, I'm not sure, but according to one of those

25 authorities, one of the easiest and safest places to return to is the

Page 11985

1 Prijedor municipality. Are you aware of that? Lord Ashdown had nothing

2 to do with that assessment and neither did SFOR by the way, Mr. Ackerman.

3 That was the office that the Tribunal has which monitors situations from

4 time to time.

5 MS. KORNER: It was, Your Honour, it was one of the UN

6 organisations, nothing to do with your office.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Have you found it, Ms. Korner?

9 MS. KORNER: Yes, I have.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd like to be precise so if you could let me look

11 at it, the precise language so the record is clear as to what the precise

12 language actually is because I'm working from memory.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think you ought to put the precise language.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I would love to. I'm very anxious to do that.

15 Q. Okay, sir, what I'm looking at is a document called a security

16 assessment.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this was filed confidentially and we are

18 in open session. Could we just not refer to where it emanates.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner is right or we go to private session for

20 a while.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Let's go to private session for a moment because I

22 think it might be important.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will go to private session. Private

24 session, Ms. Chuqing, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 11986

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now, Mr. Ackerman.


12 Q. Sir, with regard to Prijedor, the report says this: "Prijedor has

13 been open to returns since 1998 and remains one of the best return sites

14 in the RS. Returns are estimated at over 8.000 for the entire

15 municipality, with returnees continuing to come back every day. The

16 current mayor is moderate and has been very cooperative with the

17 international community. The security situation for returnees is

18 generally good, although there have been mostly minor incidents until now.

19 Recent return-related incidents involve explosions near the homes of

20 returnees and the Imam in town. The explosions are not limited to

21 returnee sites, though, as the majority of the incidents are more likely

22 related to local organised crime. The Bosniak community here is now

23 strong enough to enable Bosniaks to testify with more confidence although

24 the risk for a Bosniak or Croat testifying against a Serb is still

25 considerable. The Serb community continues to harbour hard-line elements.

Page 11987

1 The risk for a Serb from Prijedor testifying against a Bosniak or Croat is

2 minimal."

3 Now that's the report and the question I really asked you was were

4 you aware that it was one of the best return sites for people wanting to

5 return? And I take it you were not aware until I read that to you?

6 A. I was not aware of this perception of the situation but let me

7 tell you why I do not want, and I think cannot go back there. At the time

8 of exhumation of people killed in Brisevo and the funeral, one of the

9 policemen who allegedly was there to look after our security, the

10 policeman of the Republika Srpska, he was one of the policemen who

11 participated in the attack on Brisevo. I recognised him. Secondly,

12 during the exhumation, during the exhumation itself, when one body was

13 taken out of the ground and it was in a pretty good condition, not

14 decomposed that is, and one of the Serb policemen said, "Fuck his Ustasha

15 mother, he's still bleeding after ten years." Such men cannot guarantee

16 my security. I want to protect myself from them and also to protect them

17 against themselves.

18 Q. You know, don't you, that there were horrible things that happened

19 in that area in World War II? Massacres of immense proportion, you know

20 that, don't you?

21 MS. KORNER: Relevance, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, relevance, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: It has to do with the answer he just gave, Your

24 Honour, and I think the next question will make it clear.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear the next question too.

Page 11988


2 Q. You said that before the war, interethnic relations amongst

3 different groups was extremely good. My question is: How did it happen

4 that after those horrible events of World War II, that interethnic

5 relations became good in view of what you just told us about your concern

6 that they will never become good after what happened in 1992? What was

7 different?

8 A. The difference, I wouldn't be able to tell you about the

9 difference because I was born some 20 years after World War II. I do not

10 know what was the set of -- what was the state of mind and what kind of

11 political tensions or differences existed amongst different groups

12 following World War II. I am aware that many, many crimes were committed

13 against the Serb population during World War II but I was born 20 years

14 later. Most of those people who attacked Brisevo were also born 20, 30 or

15 even more years after World War II. I have nothing to do with that and I

16 therefore cannot -- I cannot really comment on something like that. I

17 cannot make any appraisals of the situation or anything.

18 Q. In the Stakic trial, Judge Vassylenko asked you to name persons

19 involved in propaganda activities in the region, and your answer to

20 Judge Vassylenko was that there was a journalist from Radio Prijedor and

21 Kozarski Vjesnik by the name of Milan Mutic. I believe that's the person

22 you named being involved in the propaganda activities. Am I right about

23 that? Did I read that properly because it was a bit confusing?

24 A. Yes. You did, but it's not the same Milan Mutic whom I mentioned

25 in a part of my statement that he had misappropriated my flat. They are

Page 11989

1 two different persons called the same, though. There were more of them.

2 But I know the name of Milan Mutic because that is a person whom I

3 personally -- whom I know personally, unfortunately he wasn't the only

4 one.

5 Q. But that was the answer you gave Judge Vassylenko regarding who

6 was involved and responsible for the propaganda, correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's all I have, thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I suppose there is a re-examination,

10 Ms. Korner?

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, there is, Your Honour. Mr. Trbojevic is on his

12 feet for some reason.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see. I recognise Mr. Trbojevic.

14 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, part of a witness's

15 answer is not in the transcript and the video was on and so Mr. Ackerman

16 did not see. On page 58, line 21, with reference to the existence or

17 non-existence of an anti-aircraft gun, the witness said that unfortunately

18 they did not have it. And that is not recorded.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: "Unfortunately, we did not have it?" Is this what

20 you mean, that he said, used the term, the word "unfortunately" and this

21 does not show in the transcript?

22 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You've heard what Mr. Trbojevic has just

24 stated. When you were being asked a question about the Bofors gun, did

25 you actually state, "Unfortunately we did not have it"?

Page 11990

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer was, "We did not have such

2 a gun, now I think unfortunately we did not have it, because had we had

3 it, we then would have been in a position to return it. We cannot return

4 something that we do not have."

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Trbojevic. What I suggest is we

6 give the technicians four minutes to change the tape because it should be

7 coming up any time now. We have been sitting for almost an hour and a

8 half, and we remain here and you proceed with your re-examination. Is

9 that all right with the interpreters? Okay? All right?

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I haven't got that much in

11 re-examination but there is there any point in trying to start

12 Ms. Sutherland's witness since 6.00? He's been in the room since 5.00.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know how long Ms. Sutherland anticipates

14 this witness to last. How much time she needs. Because.

15 THE REGISTRAR: We still have 15 minutes.

16 MS. KORNER: Ms. Sutherland won't finish --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't expect her to finish the witness today.

18 MS. KORNER: She can certainly start him. I've got about ten

19 minutes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed with your re-examination then.

21 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:

22 Q. Mr. Atlija, it was put to you or you were asked about your

23 evidence respect of the surrender of this so-called Bofors gun. Were you

24 asked to surrender that gun before or after the village was initially

25 shelled on the 27th of May?

Page 11991

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he already gave the answer that it was

2 after the village had been shelled. I don't think it needs to be

3 repeated. When I asked him the question he said it was after the village

4 had first been shelled.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes. I want to make -- I want to counter a point

6 which I think is going to be made that the attack on Brisevo was connected

7 with this gun so I want to just deal with that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Proceed, Ms. Korner. Go ahead.


10 Q. Mr. Atlija, the attack, the shelling of Brisevo, on the 27th of

11 May, had there been any request for the surrender of a Bofors gun or other

12 weapons before that initial shelling?

13 A. Before the shelling, there was no demand to hand over the Bofors.

14 Only when our delegation went to Rasavci to see why they were firing at

15 us, then they said what they were looking for. They presented it as an

16 example of what would happen to us if we do not surrender weapons,

17 including that infamous Bofors.

18 Q. You've told us over and over again you didn't have such a weapon.

19 Did you hand over to them such hunting rifles and pistols as you had?

20 A. The weapons that we did have were loaded on to a small tractor.

21 There wasn't more than ten of such weapons. I don't know the exact

22 number. And this was given to the soldiers at the checkpoint at

23 Donja Ravska. We even received some kind of certificate, receipt, but I

24 don't know who has this receipt, whether it was thrown away or destroyed.

25 I don't know.

Page 11992

1 Q. Now, between the 27th of May, or thereabouts, and the all-out

2 attack on the 24th of July, were there any other requests or demands for

3 the handing over of the Bofors gun?

4 A. When these weapons that we had were taken away and handed over,

5 the Serb soldiers or the Serb authorities, whoever there was responsible

6 for that, said that their delegation would come to run a house-by-house

7 search in the village, that some of the villagers had to be present and

8 that a house where weapons were found would be burned. The owner would be

9 killed. And if they don't find any weapons at Brisevo, any weapons or the

10 Bofors, then that nothing would happen to us. But they kept talking about

11 this Bofors, Bofors.

12 Q. Were any house-to-house searches carried out by members of the

13 Serb police or military or the authorities generally?

14 A. No, no one ever.

15 Q. You've told us how -- or you told the Court in Stakic how you were

16 awoken at 3.00 a.m. on the 24th of July by the sound of shelling. Before

17 that, either immediately or in the week before that, had there been any

18 demand made to surrender weapons?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Had there been any announcements made over radio or megaphone that

21 the Serbs were -- had reason to believe that you were in possession of

22 arms and that unless you surrendered them, your village would be shelled?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you given any kind of warning that the shelling was to take

25 place?

Page 11993

1 A. No. We were never given any warning.

2 Q. Any opportunity to take, at least send from the village, the

3 women, the children, the old, the elderly, the infirm?

4 A. We didn't have any means to do it. We didn't know where to go,

5 how to go. Allow me to explain. There was no petrol and the few cars or

6 tractors and other transport means that we had, for example, we were not

7 in a position to be able to buy gas or oil so even if we were -- if it was

8 possible for us to go, we could only go on foot.

9 Q. Had you -- had anybody in your village attempted any kind of

10 attack or resistance to what was happening?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just -- I object to this. I just

12 can't imagine how this was raised by anything I asked on

13 cross-examination. It's brand new direct examination.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman is right.

15 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, with respect, he's not. Unless --

16 what I'm dealing with is, I anticipate, a suggestion being made that this

17 village was shelled on the 24th of July because in some ways this was

18 connected with the Bofors gun. Otherwise, what was the purpose of

19 Mr. Ackerman's cross-examination on the Bofors gun?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That point you have made. Now you have -- you are

22 proceeding further. You're suggesting that a further point in your

23 argument, a further step, which I don't think is fair because he never

24 suggested that the --

25 MS. KORNER: Fine, if Your Honour there is not going to be any

Page 11994

1 suggestion at any stage in this case that the attack on Brisevo on the

2 24th of July was anything other than an unprovoked attack then I'm content

3 and I won't take this further.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: That's a completely different matter, Your Honour.

5 And if she wanted to make sure that there wasn't going to be any such

6 thing she should have done that in direct. She had her direct

7 examination. She finished with it. What she's doing now is not raised by

8 my cross.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Your objection is sustained. Let's move to the next

10 question. Forget about whether there was --

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I just want to make absolutely clear and

12 we are back to the good old Rule 90(H). If there is going to be evidence

13 called or in any stage going to be suggested that this attack resulted

14 from something that was done by them, then that should have been put to

15 this witness and it hasn't so I will leave it at that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: There was no suggestion forthcoming from Mr. -- At

17 least during his cross.

18 MS. KORNER: I'm content with that, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither does it appear from the documents that I

20 have read that any such thing sort of happened in the case of his village

21 or town or whatever it is.


23 Q. Mr. Atlija, I just want to deal then, please, with one other

24 matter and that's the question of your property. You lived in Prijedor

25 before the takeover on the 30th of April. What happened to your property?

Page 11995

1 A. As I said, several times before, Milan Mutic moved into my

2 apartment, who lived in Donja Ljubija. Before that, it wasn't possible

3 for me to move around, normally, I wasn't able to return to Prijedor

4 because -- because -- without the permission of the authorities in

5 Ljubija, it was not possible to travel. The house in Brisevo was burned

6 to the ground. And all of the things of value that we had in the house

7 were -- and also, the immovable property around the house, so all of the

8 property owned not only by myself but my whole family and my mother and my

9 father, all of that was destroyed, all of the property that I managed to

10 bring out of Brisevo, or Prijedor, amounts to one pair of shoes, one pair

11 of trousers, one T-shirt, and one jeans jacket. That was the entire

12 property that I took with me when I left that area.

13 Q. The suggestion was made to you that wasn't it preferable to sign

14 over all your property to the custody of the -- in inverted commas --

15 government. In normal circumstances, would you have been prepared to hand

16 over your property to the state?

17 A. No, not to any state. I own my property and not the state.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour, that's all I

19 ask in re-examination.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What's wrong, Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Nothing wrong, Your Honour I just have an

22 additional question based on the re-examination by Ms. Korner.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Ms. Korner asked him if they had been warned in any

25 way that Brisevo was going to be attacked and he said no. And in fact, on

Page 11996

1 the day that he went swimming, a Serb came there and told them that the

2 next day, their village was going to be attacked and warned him that that

3 was going to happen. And it's in the Stakic transcript. Your Honours

4 will find it there. I don't necessarily need to ask him the question.

5 MS. KORNER: I agree, Your Honour, but what I was asking about was

6 not some Serb neighbour kindly warning them, "you're about to be

7 attacked," but any official warnings from any kind of governmental thing.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you need to answer it because we

9 already had the answer. So let's conclude with this witness.

10 Mr. Atlija, I thank you on behalf of this Tribunal for having

11 accepted to come over a second time to give evidence at this time in this

12 trial, previously in the Stakic trial.

13 You will be attended to by the staff of this Tribunal to help you

14 return to your place of residence. And now you will be escorted by the

15 usher. Thank you.

16 Now, Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop in any case to enable the

20 technicians to change the tape. I promised everyone to finish in time

21 to -- as requested. Ms. Sutherland, do you prefer to start today or what

22 do you -- what is your preference? How long -- do you think tomorrow's

23 sitting will be enough for you?

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. I think I estimated last night

25 possibly three-quarters of an hour. I think I may be an hour and a half.

Page 11997

1 I want to show a couple of videotapes to the witness and what I wanted to

2 possibly even try and do either this evening or tomorrow was admit the

3 photographs and maps from the prior witness so we can do that first thing

4 in the morning, in the afternoon.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: In the afternoon, yeah. And Mr. Ackerman, do you

6 plan to have a lengthy cross-examination?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Depending on how the witness answers questions, it

8 should be about the same as today. Length wise.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Pretty close to that.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we haven't, in any event, got another

12 witness because the witness who starts on Monday is a lengthy witness and

13 he's got to listen to days and days of tapes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I think we can stop now, all right? Would

15 someone please explain to the witness, if he's been here waiting, that

16 this is not due to any disregard to his -- who is going to take care of

17 that? You will take care of that? Okay. Thank you. So I thank

18 everyone. This is the end of today's sitting. We adjourn until tomorrow

19 in the afternoon.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 5.42 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

22 the 22nd day of November, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.