Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12644

1 Thursday, 12 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So could you call the case, please, Madam

6 Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can

10 you hear me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

12 can hear you and understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Appearances for the

14 Prosecution.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honours Ann Sutherland for the

16 Prosecution assisted by Denise Gustin case manager.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you. Appearances

18 for Radoslav Brdjanin?

19 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

20 Milan Trbojevic and my associate Marela Jevtovic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you too. Before we

22 proceed, Ms. Sutherland, I would like to know which municipality to expect

23 immediately after Prijedor. If you have the order --

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Bosanski Novi. We can provide Your Honour and

25 the Defence with a list of the order of the witnesses very soon.

Page 12645

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So the next witness --

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: The next witness has protective measures, BT33.

3 Her evidence will be heard in closed session.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.134, just let me check to make sure. Yes. So

5 usher, please prepare the courtroom for closed session.

6 Please, let's go into closed session.

7 [Closed session]

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11 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

13 [Open session]

14 [The witness entered court]

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour before we begin.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: For the record, Mr. Rupert Read, law clerk from

18 the Office of the Prosecutor has joined us.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome and good morning to you.

20 One thing, Ms. Sutherland and Mr. Trbojevic, it occurred to me and

21 my attention has actually been drawn also to the fact that referring to

22 the previous witness, the transcript of her testimony in Stakic shows that

23 at a certain point in time, what was an open session and subsequently a

24 private session, and then open session, et cetera, turned out to be a

25 closed session, which makes it important to take some precautionary action

Page 12678

1 over here and I was going to suggest to you -- since it's not feasible to

2 divide the transcript into different parts, parts which are open, parts

3 which are private, parts which are closed, I was going to suggest to the

4 Defence and the Prosecution to agree that Exhibit P1544 will be accepted,

5 admitted, under seal. Is that all right?

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

7 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We agree.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's it. Let me -- the next witness, 7.54,

9 I understand has not asked for any protective measures.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, Mr. Nasic, good morning to you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. This is the first

14 time you are giving evidence and therefore I need to explain to you very

15 short -- and very briefly what is important for you to know. Our rules

16 require that before you start giving evidence, you make a solemn

17 declaration, equivalent to an oath. That in the course of your testimony,

18 you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The

19 text of the solemn declaration is contained in a piece of paper that the

20 usher is going to hand to you after which I would invite you to stand up

21 and read that declaration aloud and that would be your solemn undertaking

22 with us that in the course of your testimony, you will be telling us the

23 truth. Please proceed.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 12679

1 WITNESS: ELVEDIN NASIC

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. You will be

4 conducting the examination-in-chief, Ms. Sutherland will be now examining

5 you in chief, putting a series of questions to you, which you are required

6 to answer. After that, you will be cross-examined by the Defence team.

7 Now, your duty is not to make any distinction between the Prosecution and

8 the Defence. You're duty is to answer each and every question,

9 irrespective of who is putting the question to you, as truthfully and as

10 completely as you can.

11 Incidentally, what you see in this courtroom, I need to explain

12 very briefly. Right in front of you, in the front row, is the Registrar's

13 staff. They will be following the proceedings as they go along. And I am

14 the Presiding Judge, my name is Carmen Agius, I come from Malta and I'm

15 flanked at my right by Judge Janu from the Czech Republic and on the left

16 by Judge Taya from Japan. The team for the Prosecution is to your

17 right. You need only be concerned with Ms. Sutherland, who will be

18 cross-examining you. It's not that the others are not important but for

19 the time being, that's -- and then you will be cross-examined, I presume

20 by Mr. Trbojevic who is co-counsel for the accused Mr. Brdjanin. Yes you

21 may proceed, Ms. Sutherland.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

24 Q. Sir, please state your full name?

25 A. Elvedin Nasic.

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Page 12681

1 Q. You were born on the 1st of July, 1971 in the Prijedor

2 municipality?

3 A. In 1971, yes.

4 Q. Your nickname is Vedo?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And your ethnicity is Bosniak?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In 1994, you provided a statement to the CSB in Banja Luka about

9 events which occurred in the Prijedor municipality in 1992, do you recall

10 that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. In January, 1995, you were interviewed by an investigator from the

13 Office of the Prosecutor in this Tribunal?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. In March, 2000, you were again interviewed by an investigator and

16 a lawyer from the Office of the Prosecutor where you made some changes to

17 your 1995 statement and provided some additional information?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. In January, 2002, you were visited by members of the Tribunal when

20 they took a declaration from you and you made some additional changes to

21 the statements taken in 1995 and 2000?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In January and February, 2002, you had a brief conversation with

24 an investigator in respect of another case. Do you recall that

25 conversation?

Page 12682

1 A. Yes, I do recall.

2 Q. Mr. Nasic, you spoke some limited English. However, I would ask

3 that you wait for the translation into your native language before you

4 answer the question.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, I would like to deal with a

6 sensitive matter for one moment and I would ask that we go into closed

7 session to do that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is there any objection on the part of the

9 Defence?

10 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Trbojevic. Madam Registrar, let's

12 go into closed session for a while, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are -- I notice that we are in private session.

14 I said closed session. You said closed session.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, private session, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So keep it in private session, thank

17 you.

18 [Private session]

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9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Ms. Sutherland. So please

11 proceed.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND:

13 Q. Mr. Nasic in May, 1992, you were residing in the village of

14 Hambarine in the municipality of Prijedor with your parents, your three

15 brothers and your two sisters; is that correct?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. And up until that time, you had lived in Hambarine all your life?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. During 1990 and 1991, you completed your compulsory JNA military

20 training and you specialised in firing ammunition from tanks?

21 A. Yes. I was a gunner.

22 Q. In May, 1992, you were 21 years old and worked as a mechanic?

23 A. I was 21 but I had already completed my schooling. However, I was

24 not employed.

25 Q. You were a member of the TO in Hambarine?

Page 12686

1 A. Yes, I was.

2 Q. After the takeover of power by the Serbs in Prijedor, on the 30th

3 of April, 1992, did your village set up night patrols?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you participate in those patrols?

6 A. I did occasionally.

7 Q. I want to turn now to events that occurred in May, 1992.

8 According to your recollection, on or about the 21st of May, 1992, an

9 incident occurred at the Muslim checkpoint in Hambarine? After that

10 incident, was an ultimatum given to hand over weapons and the Muslim men

11 who were at the checkpoint?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How was the ultimatum given?

14 A. It was aired on Radio Prijedor.

15 Q. What was stated, if the ultimatum wasn't met?

16 A. I can't remember the exact details of that.

17 Q. What occurred the following day in Hambarine?

18 A. The following day, since the weapons were not surrendered, nor did

19 the people who were at the checkpoint surrendered, then sometime around

20 12.00 or around that time, the general attack on Hambarine started. Some

21 occasional shells landed on neighbouring villages.

22 Q. Was the shelling continuous or intermittent?

23 A. Initially, it was continuous and then afterwards, it was

24 intermittent.

25 Q. Do you know what direction the shelling was coming from?

Page 12687

1 A. Since I was a gunner, one tank was positioned in the area of

2 Tukovi and the artillery, the mortars were firing from Miljakovci. I'm

3 not sure whether that was the exact area but around there somewhere.

4 Q. What was the ethnicity of the people that lived in the village of

5 Miljakovci, if you know?

6 A. I don't know. There were Muslims and -- but I'm not sure.

7 Q. Approximately how long did the shelling last?

8 A. I can't be -- I'm not going to be very specific about that but

9 probably for several hours, three to four hours.

10 Q. What did you do when the shelling began?

11 A. Before the conflict broke out, we made some kind of a zone of

12 defence for the village. Just in case. In order to protect the

13 population, and in order to enable the inhabitants to flee into the

14 neighbouring woods in case of an attack.

15 Q. What did you do?

16 A. I was with my neighbours on the positions. I was unarmed.

17 Q. How long did you stay on the position for?

18 A. I think two to three hours.

19 Q. What did you see from that position?

20 A. We didn't see much. However, we could feel, we could see the

21 shells flying by and landing all over the village. The mosque was

22 targeted quite a lot. It was targeted and we could see it well.

23 Q. In relation to the village, where were -- where was the position

24 where you were at?

25 A. At the entry point into the village, looking from Prijedor, we

Page 12688

1 were to the left.

2 Q. You said that the mosque was targeted quite a lot. Were any --

3 could you see any damage to any of the houses?

4 A. Some were damaged.

5 Q. At some point, did tanks and soldiers enter the village?

6 A. Yes. They did. After we had withdrawn, the civilians withdrew,

7 then we withdrew, and then they entered. With one or two tanks, I'm not

8 sure, because I was not present because we had already left the village.

9 Q. Did you see any soldiers before you left the village?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Where did you go?

12 A. We went into the neighbouring wood, which was called Kurevo.

13 Q. How long did you stay in the Kurevo forest?

14 A. We spent there three days and then I went to my aunt's because she

15 was in the vicinity.

16 Q. Were you with your parents and your brothers and sisters?

17 A. During the first three nights, yes. And later on, they went to

18 Donja Ljubija where there was a refugee centre.

19 Q. But you said you went to your aunt's house. Where was that?

20 A. That was in the local commune of Donja Ljubija. It was close to

21 the Kurevo woods.

22 Q. How long did you spend at your aunt's place?

23 A. Not long. I would go there only occasionally.

24 Q. And when you weren't at your aunt's house, where were you?

25 A. We were hiding in the woods, the same woods.

Page 12689

1 Q. Approximately how many people were hiding in the woods with you?

2 A. During the first day, we had small groups of some 10, 20, 30

3 people there.

4 Q. How long did you stay in the woods for?

5 A. About a month, to month and a half.

6 Q. Of the people that were in the woods, how many of them were armed?

7 A. I don't know. After the villages were cleansed, the neighbouring

8 villages, such as Biscani, Rakovcani, Rizvanovici, Carakovo, there were

9 some 300 to 400 civilians.

10 Q. Do you recall the date when these villages were cleansed?

11 A. Biscani, Rakovcani, and Rizvanovici, around the 22nd of July.

12 Q. Did you subsequently visit or go to these villages?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. Did you notice any damage to the houses in the villages?

15 A. A lot of houses had been set on fire.

16 Q. Was that in all three villages or one or two in particular?

17 A. In all three villages.

18 Q. While you were in the forest, was anyone killed?

19 A. Since the village of Carakovo was cleansed after the first three

20 villages, four young men were killed.

21 Q. Did you witness their killing or were you told about it?

22 A. I didn't see it personally. However, we heard from the people

23 that were with us.

24 Q. In the woods, did you meet up with a person called Asim Mujic?

25 A. I did.

Page 12690

1 Q. And did you, as a group, leave the forest?

2 A. We started towards the free territory, towards Bihac.

3 Q. Approximately how many people were there in your group?

4 A. About 50 to 60.

5 Q. And you said that you -- you started towards the free territory.

6 Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened as you went towards the free

7 territory?

8 A. At night, I can't exactly remember the date, we set out towards

9 the free territory. There were 50 to 60 in our group. As we passed

10 through other forests, which were privately owned, we were joined by other

11 groups so that in the end, there were about 200 of us.

12 Q. In what direction were you heading?

13 A. That night, we walked towards the village of Kalajevo.

14 Q. Is that towards Bihac?

15 A. Our aim was to reach not just Bihac but any place in the free

16 territory.

17 Q. Approximately how many people in this group were armed, if you

18 know?

19 A. A few. I don't know how many exactly, but some did have some

20 personal weapons.

21 Q. What happened the following day?

22 A. The next day, around 11.00, we were in the village of Kalajevo,

23 and we were discovered there by Serb troops, and at that moment, they

24 opened fire. We scattered in groups so that a group of about 120 went

25 on. That same day, sometime in late afternoon, at dusk, we entered or

Page 12691

1 rather we were passing -- passing and unaware where we were going, we

2 entered the village of Miska Glava, and when we got there, that is we were

3 in the woods nearby, and two guys went to the first house to find out

4 where exactly we had fetched up. However, when they reached that house, a

5 man came out and we could hear a shot. Meanwhile, troops were coming from

6 behind our backs so that we were surrounded, and then they took us to a

7 meadow where we were lined up in four columns.

8 Q. Approximately how many soldiers were there that surrounded the

9 group?

10 A. About 20, maybe more. I'm not sure.

11 Q. How were they dressed and were they carrying arms?

12 A. Some of them were in olive-green grey uniforms and others were in

13 camouflage uniforms. There were some individuals wearing those. And they

14 were well armed. They had automatic weapons.

15 Q. After you were put into this column, what were you made to do?

16 A. We were lined up in foursomes and then we headed off in some

17 direction, I don't know which, and then again we stopped in a place, in a

18 valley, and we waited for some transportation, because after that, we were

19 put in a van and taken further on.

20 Q. While you were in this valley, did anyone try to escape?

21 A. As a matter of fact, before that, as the column started on its

22 way, a man whose last name is Crljenkovic, I believe, his first name is

23 Mustafa, he tried to escape but failed. He was killed. He was hit in the

24 head. And he was killed from -- by a bullet from a rifle called PAP.

25 Q. Were two men selected from your group who then buried this Mustafa

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Page 12693

1 Crljenkovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You spoke a moment ago about being put in a van and being taken

4 further on. Where were you taken?

5 A. There was one van. They took us to the community centre in Miska

6 Glava, took us to a place, I think it was a coffee bar or a tavern,

7 something. I don't know.

8 Q. What happened when you were put into the -- taken to the coffee

9 bar/tavern?

10 A. When we arrived there, there were lots of troops, I don't know how

11 many, but lots of them, and they were even bringing their wives and

12 children to look, to see us, to observe us. That night, nothing special

13 happened. Some who went out to relieve themselves were beaten up.

14 Q. Were your names taken?

15 A. I don't remember if it was that night or perhaps the next day.

16 Q. But in any event, they were?

17 A. That's right. They took down the names. A man called Zoran, I

18 believe his last name is Petrovic but I'm not really 100 per cent sure, I

19 know he used to work in the veterinary pharmacy before the war.

20 Q. Was this in Hambarine?

21 A. What do you mean? Sorry.

22 Q. The veterinary pharmacy, was it in Hambarine?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Miska Glava, approximately how far away is that from Hambarine, do

25 you know? And in which direction?

Page 12694

1 A. About 20 kilometres in the Hambarine-Ljubija direction, there are

2 some other villages, too. Surkovac. That direction.

3 Q. While you were staying at Miska Glava, while you were detained in

4 Miska Glava, was anyone mistreated, apart from the people that you

5 mentioned that received a beating when they went out to relieve

6 themselves?

7 A. Yes. The next day, as they already had the list, they called out

8 names and because in this community centre, there were also some offices,

9 I suppose that was the neighbourhood community, the local community

10 office, centre. And then they called people out, took them there to

11 interrogate them, and beat them along the way.

12 Q. Were you called out for questioning?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you mistreated?

15 A. I was.

16 Q. What happened?

17 A. As I entered that room, and it was quite small, perhaps 3 by 3, 3

18 by 4 metres, I'm not sure, but in any event, we had to keep our hands

19 behind our neck, and had to look down at the chest, so that I can't really

20 give you the precise size of the room. As I entered it, two or three

21 soldiers who were standing in there right at the entrance would start

22 dealing blows. With whatever they could lay their hands on, with rifle

23 butts, with their fists.

24 Q. How long were you detained in Miska Glava?

25 A. Two, three, or four days, thereabouts.

Page 12695

1 Q. Was anyone called out and taken away, never to be seen again?

2 A. Ten guys from the village of Rizvanovici were called out and they

3 were told to come out, but they didn't, and then a soldier came and then

4 he pointed at those ten guys to come out. And most of them came from that

5 village, from Rizvanovici.

6 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Ismet Hamulic?

7 A. Yes. He was one of them. He was my school fellow. He came from

8 Hambarine.

9 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the other men that were called

10 out and taken away?

11 A. No, not really.

12 Q. Where were you taken after four or five days?

13 A. They took us in a bus towards Gornja Ljubija. That is where the

14 football stadium was, and that is where they beat us up and some were

15 killed even, including a relative of mine, Irfan Nasic my first cousin.

16 Q. I'm going to that in a little more detail in a moment. When you

17 were first put on the bus in Miska Glava, did the bus stop anywhere before

18 it reached the football stadium in Ljubija?

19 A. Yes. It stopped -- now, what shall I explain it? In Gornja

20 Ljubija, something like the centre of Gornja Ljubija or not far from it,

21 and there was the entrance into the mine, that is where the mine gate

22 was. And when we stopped there, as we stopped there, a policeman called

23 Simo came on. He was an active policeman in the former police, or

24 whatever it was called, and he merely cast a look at us. I remember him

25 well. He just looked at us and then got off, and after him, uniformed

Page 12696

1 soldiers came on. They were wearing overalls, dark blue and black

2 camouflage, disrupted pattern coverall uniforms, and later on, I heard

3 there was some kind of an intervention platoon, and in the bus, they also

4 beat with whatever -- with their boots, anything, but mostly kicking

5 people.

6 Q. Were these intervention platoon soldiers -- people armed?

7 A. I'm not sure. They didn't have -- when they entered the bus, they

8 didn't have any rifles with them, but I assume they had pistols. That was

9 when they entered the bus.

10 Q. And then the bus continued towards the Ljubija football stadium?

11 A. The football stadium was at the entrance into Gornja Ljubija, so

12 the bus entered Gornja Ljubija, then made a turn and went back to the

13 stadium.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

15 Exhibit P1127, the map of Prijedor area?

16 Q. Sir, using the pointer, can you point to where the Ljubija

17 football stadium is on that map?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. We cannot hear the witness.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the audio-visual director please zoom into

20 Ljubija? And if the map could be moved slightly up? Further? Further?

21 And across to the right a little and further up? Thank you.

22 Q. Could you point now to where the Ljubija football stadium is

23 located?

24 A. In this area here.

25 Q. And that is just above the word "Ljubija" and the red line that

Page 12697

1 goes across the map?

2 A. That's right. If you are looking to -- if you are -- if you face

3 Donja Ljubija.

4 Q. Can you point now to where the iron ore mine is?

5 A. [indicates] Here.

6 Q. And you're pointing now, you're circling the place where it says,

7 "Rudnik" -- where it says, "Rudnik Zeljezne;" is that correct?

8 A. "Ljubija Zeljezne Rude."

9 Q. And that is to the south-west of the town of Ljubija?

10 A. Sorry, could you repeat the question?

11 Q. You're pointing to the place called Rudnik Ljubija, which is to

12 the south -- just south-west of the town of Ljubija, a short distance from

13 it?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Is there another name for that mine?

16 A. I don't know what you mean. I'm sorry.

17 Q. Could you point on the map to where the Kipe mine is?

18 A. That is a locality called Kipe. I don't think it is -- Kipe we

19 called Rudnik, that is the mine, this whole area. Kipe I guess, is the

20 name of a -- just of a locality.

21 Q. And what direction is that mine, is that locality?

22 A. Well, I can't really see it here. I think it is somewhere here to

23 the left.

24 Q. Thank you. I've finished with the map.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, I have another map here with Miska

Page 12698

1 Glava highlighted, because unfortunately, it is just off this map. So if

2 we could have this map marked as P1546? And if that could be placed on

3 the ELMO?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Registrar, that map, this map is being

5 admitted as Exhibit P1546. Thank you.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND:

7 Q. Sir, is that -- where it's marked Miska Glava, is that the place

8 where you were taken when you were first surrounded by the soldiers?

9 A. That's right, yes.

10 Q. Thank you. I've finished with the map.

11 Mr. Nasic, what happened when you arrived at the stadium?

12 A. At the entrance into the stadium or rather as we got off the bus,

13 there were quite a number of civilians there who were already there when

14 the buses came to the mine for the first time, and as we got off the bus,

15 one of those civilians managed to hit us, and we entered -- we were

16 entering the part of the stadium facing the stands. It was an area of

17 some five, perhaps six metres wide.

18 Q. Besides these number of civilians you said who hit you as you got

19 off the bus, besides these people and the people that you said were part

20 of the intervention platoon, were there -- were there anyone -- was there

21 anyone else at the stadium, any policemen, for example?

22 A. Yes. I remember one. I didn't know him well, but we all called

23 him by his nickname, which was Stiven. I believe he was with the police

24 reserve force. He personally killed my relative, my cousin. There was

25 another man there, who was a military, with a rank of a captain. That is

Page 12699

1 he had the patch on his blouse, but I think it was a rank. He obtained --

2 he was conferred upon for war, for valour, because he didn't have it on

3 his epaulettes.

4 Q. What were you beaten with?

5 A. Sorry?

6 Q. What were you beaten with, as you got off the bus?

7 A. Anything, you name it, metal rods, baseball bats, rifle butts,

8 whatever.

9 Q. You said that Stiven personally killed your cousin. You mentioned

10 his name before, Irfan Nasic. Can you explain to the Court how that

11 occurred?

12 A. Since we were the first ones to enter that area, facing the

13 stands, to the left was the retaining wall and to the right was wire, wire

14 fence, and in front of us were the stands. Some were singled out and

15 moved over to the wire and others were sent to the other side, to that

16 retaining wall. And I was in the latter group. And my cousin was on the

17 other side, next to the wire. And he was the first one in the -- in the

18 line. And meanwhile, Stiven, with one or two guys carrying weapons, was

19 taking one of ours, one of the guys from our group, and asking him about

20 what kind of weapons each one of us had. And this man from our group said

21 that my relative had a zolja, but that was not true, because I know that

22 he didn't have any weapons at all. And Stiven approached him, since he

23 had his back on him, and fired a pistol at him and killed him on the spot.

24 And another man called Muharem Crljenkovic, he opened fire from an

25 automatic rifle and with a burst of fire, he cut his head off. I saw that

Page 12700

1 with my own eyes. And moreover, he would say afterwards, "Look at this.

2 This man didn't even have any brains." I don't know, they were making

3 jokes, I guess, but that's what they said, "Look at this one, he didn't

4 even have any brains in." The third man was killed but I do not know his

5 name.

6 Q. Do you know anyone called Muharem Petrovac?

7 A. Yes. He came from Rakovcani, a neighbouring village.

8 Q. Was he at the stadium that day?

9 A. He was.

10 Q. Did anything happen to him?

11 A. He was the man whose head was split into two by a gun -- burst of

12 fire.

13 Q. And so you were actually referring to Muharem Petrovac when you

14 mentioned a man called Muharem Crljenkovic a moment ago?

15 A. No, no. I can't remember the first name. I don't know whether

16 the first name was Muharem. I know that the last name was Crljenkovic. I

17 knew him well. We used to play football together. His nickname was Duca,

18 this man called Crljenkovic that was killed in Miska Glava.

19 Q. So Crljenkovic was killed in Miska Glava but it was Muharem

20 Petrovac that was killed with Irfan Nasic, your cousin, at the Ljubija

21 football stadium?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Did you recognise anyone besides Stiven?

24 A. I recognised somebody called Predrag Vasiljevic from Ljeskare. I

25 knew him personally.

Page 12701

1 Q. And that is the neighbouring village from Hambarine, across the

2 river?

3 A. That's a village on the road from Hambarine to Ljubija, the

4 following village after ours.

5 Q. Were you mistreated again that day at the stadium?

6 A. Yes. They beat us. They hit me with a metal baton on the head.

7 And I lost my consciousness then.

8 Q. What happened when you regained consciousness?

9 A. I lay on the floor, on the concrete floor. An armed soldier

10 kicked me with his boots saying, "Get up." He cursed my mother. That was

11 their custom. I got up and then he said, "The two of you," since there

12 was a young man next to me, "Pick up these dead bodies and take them

13 elsewhere." We moved them just a few metres from the place where they

14 were.

15 Q. And this was Irfan Nasic, Muharem Petrovac and a third man whose

16 name you don't recall, whom you didn't know?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know who was in charge of these intervention platoon men?

19 Was anyone in particular in charge, from what you could see?

20 A. He introduced himself to us by his first and last name but I only

21 remember the nickname Major.

22 Q. After you had moved the bodies a few metres, what happened then?

23 A. After that, in columns by three, four or five, with our hands

24 behind our necks, and legs spread apart, started moving towards the bus,

25 which was a double bus. As we were leaving the stadium, they beat us too

Page 12702

1 with baseball bats, here in this area.

2 Q. I'm sorry, where were you pointing to? The -- for the record,

3 you're pointing to the side of --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: His right-hand side of the body, below the

5 shoulder.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, they stood on both

7 sides. As we were leaving the stadium, we would have to pass two

8 soldiers, standing on each side. One of them was Predrag Vasiljevic. He

9 stood on the right, to the right of me.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND:

11 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened then?

12 A. Upon entering the bus, there were numerous armed soldiers. We

13 entered the bus, or boarded, or whatever you want to call that. They even

14 threw in the dead bodies into the bus. Since I was at the end of the bus,

15 they were with us. And when everything was ready, the bus started in the

16 direction unknown to us. Immediately after the bus started, one of the

17 soldiers asked us first whether we wanted to go to Kurevo, and then he

18 made us sing some of their songs. "Who is saying that Serbia is little,

19 small?" "All of the guards are that of General Draza."

20 The bus travelled for some 20 minutes. I'm not quite sure but

21 approximately that long. And then it stopped. I don't know how many

22 armed people there were on the bus. They got off, whereas one with PAP

23 rifle stood by the driver's seat, by the door there. And he told us that

24 we should go out in groups of three. Upon leaving the bus, some 10 to 15

25 seconds, a half minute later, one could hear gunfire. After the gunfire,

Page 12703

1 he would call out the names of others, until our turn came. The names of

2 me and two other young men who came out with me were called out. Upon

3 leaving the bus, and I was the third in my group, the first two that got

4 off lay down by the bus immediately. I was the third to get off, and I

5 expected to hear the shots. However, something else was going on, because

6 when I met the two young men later, who were with me, that evening, while

7 we were descending, they broke the window and jumped off the bus so that

8 they drew their attention to them and the soldiers that were armed started

9 chasing them because four or five of them jumped off the bus and

10 scattered. Four of them managed to escape, but out of them, only two are

11 currently alive.

12 So that when I got off the bus, I expected a burst of gunfire any

13 minute, since the two others fell by the bus right away, I stepped over

14 the dead bodies, who had been taken out and killed prior to that. Since

15 there was a depression there, I lay down over the bodies. This depression

16 was some two to three metres deep, I'm not exactly sure. And I got down

17 between those dead bodies. In the meantime, shots were heard directed at

18 those that had escaped. And then everything got calm. The ones that had

19 been firing came to the door. I didn't see that, as I was lying down

20 there in that hole, but this is the picture that I created in my mind.

21 The one that stood next to the door in front, it was probably him, said,

22 "There are three who are alive and got out." All of this was taking place

23 at night. I'm not sure of the exact time but it was night-time. Could

24 have been 8.00, 9.00, 10.00, I have no idea but it was night-time.

25 So this one man said that some were still alive, and the other one

Page 12704

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Page 12705

1 asked for the torch light. And then, using the flashlight, he illuminated

2 the area, covering the dead bodies, and he saw that -- or rather, he said,

3 "Fuck his mother, look at this guy. He's alive." Then there was a burst

4 of gunfire and the same happened to the other man. He would illuminate

5 the area with the flashlight and then after that, there would follow a

6 burst of gunfire.

7 At the same time, people that had been taken out prior to that and

8 who had been hit by a bullet did not die immediately, and what -- one

9 could hear moaning. And then the armed people shot at them.

10 I remember hearing the words to the effect, "Look at these

11 fighters. They have stone hearts." And this word "fighters" that

12 referred to them, and I don't know what was the message, what were they

13 trying to say, because we had not been arrested as soldiers.

14 Then they cursed their Muslim mothers, saying, "Look at them, they

15 have stone hearts."

16 Then it was my turn. He took the flashlight, illuminated the

17 area, and since I lay on my stomach, I felt the light above my head. At

18 that moment, that person cursed again and said, "Here is another one

19 that's alive." Excuse me. Then he took the rifle and there followed a

20 burst of gunfire and then again with the flashlight he covered the area

21 and then there was another burst of gunfire. So that this lasted until he

22 ran out of ammunition.

23 After the third burst of gunfire, a car came, and one of them said

24 that they should use the lights on the car to illuminate the entire area

25 because there were others that were still alive. However, since this was

Page 12706

1 in a depression, the car probably could not illuminate the area so that he

2 managed to shoot two more bursts of gunfire.

3 After these five rounds, he ran out of ammunition. And he asked

4 for a pistol. Somebody give it to him and then he shot two, three, four

5 bullets around him, again used the flashlight in the area where I was.

6 Then he took the pistol and again fired a couple of bullets more,

7 illuminated with the flashlight again and then for the nth time cursed my

8 mother and said, "This guy is not normal. He's still breathing.".

9 However, the soldier, a uniformed man or somebody standing next to him,

10 belonging to the escort that was on the bus, and that killed the people,

11 one of them told him on a few occasions that nobody else was alive, and

12 that all had been killed. Then he cursed the man again and they started

13 singing their war songs. "Who is saying that Serbia is little?" And so

14 on. They turned on the car and the bus and drove off.

15 Q. How long did you stay in the hole on top of the bodies for?

16 A. About 15 to 20 minutes.

17 Q. Do you know the names of anyone that was killed that night?

18 A. My school mate, Reuf Fikic from Hambarine was there. Then there

19 was Muhic Abdulah, called Dule. Rasid Medic. Suad Mulalic. I remember

20 their names, although I only knew nicknames of the majority of people.

21 Q. Did you know a person called Islam Hopovac?

22 A. Yes, I did. He was from the village of Carakovo.

23 Q. Was he one of the people that were killed that night?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Besim Hegic?

Page 12707

1 A. I knew him by sight. He was a bus driver. I think he used to

2 work for AutoTransport.

3 Q. What was his approximate age?

4 A. 40, 41, or 42.

5 Q. In 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is there any other names that you recall, the surnames only?

8 A. There were people with the last name Muhic, Hamulic, they were

9 from Rizvanovici. Jamastagic [phoen], Kadiric, they were from Sredice.

10 Q. Do you recall seeing anyone with a surname Kekic?

11 A. I do. I can't remember the first name but I know them.

12 Q. Do you know approximately how old this person was?

13 A. There were two men, cousins. One was about 17 and the other one

14 18 or 19. Judging by their looks, I think that's how old they were.

15 Q. Did you recall seeing anyone with the surname Kadic?

16 A. No, I don't. I can't remember.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, you will hear further evidence in

18 relation to an exhumation that took place in March, 2000, later on in the

19 case. Would that be an appropriate time for a break, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Ms. Sutherland. How much longer

21 will your --

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Perhaps half an hour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Half an hour. And do you think you would be in a

24 position to conclude?

25 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I believe I will. I don't have

Page 12708

1 many questions for this witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll try and make an effort, try and

3 make an effort, and I suggest that we have a short break of 15 minutes.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it all right with you? Is it okay with the

6 parties?

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So a 15 minute break. Thank you.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please go ahead.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Nasic, when you -- when you got out of the hole where the

14 bodies were, where did you then go?

15 A. As it was night time, and I didn't know the area, I headed in some

16 direction, unknown direction, but before I did that, I was sitting there,

17 there was a road, a macadam road, as a matter of fact, and on the other

18 side of the road, I saw a sign, and I went to it. I couldn't see clearly,

19 so that I had to crawl up the post with the sign to see the direction, and

20 it said -- I can't be quite accurate, but it said "Ravska."

21 Q. Could you just pause there, witness?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, with the agreement with the Defence

23 and the Chamber, I may lead the witness through the next few questions

24 until we get to the next issue.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have our authorisation. If there is any

Page 12709

1 objection forthcoming from the Defence as you go along, I'm sure they will

2 let us know and we will decide accordingly.

3 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So please go ahead.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND:

6 Q. Mr. Nasic, did you spend the night in the forest?

7 A. I did, yes.

8 Q. The following morning, did you go to a village predominantly Croat

9 village called Stara Rijeka?

10 A. I came to that village and I came across a woman, because I had

11 never been to that place before, so I asked her, although I assumed that

12 it could be it, I mean Stara Rijeka, and she told me that it was.

13 Q. Did you see only old men, women and children in that village?

14 A. First I came across a little boy in a garage. He was playing with

15 toy cars.

16 Q. Mr. Nasic, just pause there for a moment. I'm wanting to ask the

17 next following questions and I want you to answer me very briefly because

18 I want to move on to when you left on a convoy on the 21st of -- 21st of

19 August, 1992. So did this -- did a woman in Stara Rijeka provide you with

20 some food?

21 A. She did. That woman gave me food, and the next woman I came

22 across, she told me that her husband and her two sons had been taken

23 away. I believe her name was Kata or something like that.

24 Q. Was this -- when was the last time you received food? Were you

25 given any food in Miska Glava?

Page 12710

1 A. No, none. They wouldn't even give us water.

2 Q. So you hadn't eaten for approximately seven days?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Over the next three or four days, you walked around, and you were

5 in a very bad physical condition; is that correct?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. And you met up with a woman who was going to Ljubija. What did

8 that woman who was going to Ljubija tell you about what had happened the

9 night before -- I'm sorry, not the night before, the night that you were

10 at the Kipe mine?

11 A. I'm sorry, that woman was not going in the direction of Ljubija.

12 I went there, and she was headed for the next house. She was taking some

13 grains to have them ground, to have them milled for feed.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you go straight to what you consider

15 is important for the rest of the facts that he's released statements about

16 because I think basically, we.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Nasic did you return to the place of the massacre at Kipe?

19 A. I did. After a few days of walking around.

20 Q. What did you see when you returned there?

21 A. I came up to that place and I saw parts -- I mean one could still

22 see parts of footwear or jackets and there was a lot of blood. I mean

23 this whole place was covered up, I suppose, an earth mover had come and

24 covered it up.

25 Q. Is it correct that you then spent the next few days in Stara

Page 12711

1 Rijeka and then you were in the forest for approximately ten days?

2 A. I was in Stara Rijeka for a few days before I turned up again in

3 that place where it all had happened.

4 Q. Whilst you were in the forest for approximately ten days, you met

5 up with three friends, Armin Petrovac, Sead Crljenkovic, and Eniz Jujic

6 and you were shot at in the field; is that correct?

7 A. It is. One of those three had -- was wounded in the leg.

8 Q. And at some point, when you were in the forest, did you hear about

9 a convoy leaving the area?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that convoy leaving from Tukovi and going to Travnik?

12 A. That's right. It left from Tukovi and it was said that it would

13 go in the direction of Travnik. That was the information that I was

14 given.

15 Q. And at that point you left the forest and went to Tukovi?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. When you arrived there, approximately how many other civilians

18 were there?

19 A. I don't know the exact number but there must have been 200, 300,

20 maybe even as many as 400 but I cannot guarantee that. Quite a number of

21 people.

22 Q. Do you recall the date of the convoy?

23 A. The 21st of August, 1992.

24 Q. Approximately how many buses and trucks were at Tukovi?

25 A. I'm not sure about that now because I dared not look around. I

Page 12712

1 was too frightened. I was -- I was afraid. I don't know what. I was

2 simply afraid.

3 Q. Did you recognise any of the soldiers there or policemen?

4 A. No, not in Tukovi, but as we set off between Banja Luka and Vlasic

5 or Skender, I'm not quite sure but I think it was that road, there was

6 this soldier in a uniform, and he had a magnum pistol, and he had a belt

7 with bullets in it.

8 Q. Do you recall his name?

9 A. I think he was Mrdja.

10 Q. How did you know him?

11 A. I knew him -- I mean I didn't know him personally but I used to

12 come across him in Prijedor before the war because before the war, I went

13 to school, so that I was often there.

14 Q. Whereabouts did you see him around Prijedor?

15 A. In coffee shops there, or just in passing. That was before the

16 war.

17 Q. Did you say his name was Mrdjan or Mrdja?

18 A. I think it was Mrdja but whether that is his name or a nickname, I

19 don't know.

20 Q. Sir, when you got on to the truck at Tukovi, you proceeded towards

21 the crossroads, Prijedor-Banja Luka road and the Kozarac-Trnopolje road;

22 is that correct?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. And I think in your statement of 1995, it said that you stopped at

25 the Trnopolje camp when in fact you stopped at the crossroads; is that

Page 12713

1 correct?

2 A. No. We didn't stop by the camp. It was the Prijedor-Kozarac road

3 and at that place, yes, there was this crossroad where there were -- a

4 road branched off to Trnopolje.

5 Q. Is it correct that the guards that were escorting the convoy asked

6 you for money and valuables?

7 A. Yes. Repeatedly.

8 Q. And when you stopped the second time, I think this is the time

9 where you say you recognised the person you referred to as Mrdja, what

10 happened at that place when you stopped? If you could explain to the

11 Court.

12 A. When we stopped there, since there was a bloke in the bus who was

13 ordered by those soldiers to collect money or valuables, because they

14 would simply come and say, "We want, for instance, 5.000 marks." Or, say

15 10.

16 Q. What happened when you stopped at the place near Vlasic?

17 A. In the meantime, there was talk -- or rather it was said that

18 women and children should move. I was in a trailer truck. And it was

19 said that women and children should move over to -- closer to the driver.

20 And that men should stay in the rear part of the truck.

21 Q. At some point, were men asked to get off the trucks and the

22 buses?

23 A. No. It was said that ten guys, I mean ten men, should get ready

24 to get off.

25 Q. And did they?

Page 12714

1 A. Well, not from our truck fortunately, because --

2 Q. Did you see men getting off other trucks and buses?

3 A. I didn't.

4 Q. Did the convoy then move off towards Travnik?

5 A. It did.

6 Q. Where did you get off the bus?

7 A. You mean off the truck?

8 Q. I am sorry, where did you get off the truck?

9 A. On Vlasic.

10 Q. And then did you walk to Travnik?

11 A. That's right, yes, all of us.

12 Q. Did all of the people on the convoy that left Tukovi and the

13 Trnopolje camp, the trucks that met at the crossroads from the Trnopolje

14 camp, did you all arrive in Travnik that day?

15 A. No. We didn't. Unfortunately. Because when we left Tukovi,

16 there were lots of families there, and when we arrived in Travnik, those

17 people who were taken out that day, they were with those, with those --

18 with families.

19 Q. Do you know approximately how many people did not make it to

20 Travnik that day?

21 A. A list was made, one of those days, I think about 150 or something

22 men, males.

23 Q. Besides Mrdja, did you recognise anybody else that was escorting

24 the convoy?

25 A. No, not one of the escorts but I remember a truck driver, a man

Page 12715

1 who used to drive a Prijedor bus, a city bus.

2 Q. Do you recall his name?

3 A. No. I don't. I only know he was a bus driver, rather the truck.

4 Q. Is it correct that your father died on the 21st of July, 1992?

5 A. He was killed.

6 Q. Whereabouts was he killed?

7 A. In the village of Biscani.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And the date is correct, the date suggested to you,

9 the 21st of July, 1992; is that correct?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I am not sure about the

11 date, but it was a day when Biscani was cleansed and I think it was the

12 22nd. I'm sorry about this, but it was that day when the village was

13 cleansed.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND:

15 Q. And your brother told you about the killing of your father when

16 you met up with him later?

17 A. Yes, because he eye witnessed this killing.

18 Q. Did he tell you the circumstances of your father's death in

19 Biscani?

20 A. Yes. An armed soldier asked who was with whom, and my father said

21 that he was with him, that he was his son, and he said, "Well, one of you

22 has to die."

23 Q. Were your father or your brother armed?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How many other close relatives did you lose in the conflict which

Page 12716

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Page 12717

1 occurred in the Prijedor municipality in 1992?

2 A. Well, what we call they are cousins, that is my uncles, my

3 brother -- my father's brother, three sons.

4 Q. What are their names? You mentioned Irfan Nasic earlier in your

5 testimony.

6 A. Yes. Emsud Nasic, Ibrahim Nasic.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I have no further questions from the

8 witness.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you Ms. Sutherland. Mr. Trbojevic?

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Nasic, I do not have many

12 questions and I'm really sorry to have to remind you of all these events

13 but I'll have to ask you to try and explain certain things to us. You

14 told us that you did your military service with the former JNA?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And what was your combat assignment after that?

17 A. Combat assignment?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. All I remember is that when I was leaving the army, the battalion

20 or brigade commander said, in case of anything, I think you will be called

21 up to -- now, what's it called? To back to this brigade, with which I'd

22 done my military service.

23 Q. So you didn't join the reserves?

24 A. No. I suppose that was how it was before, for those who served in

25 Kosovo because -- and I served in Kosovo, then for a few years after that,

Page 12718

1 you'd be exempt from any reserve service.

2 Q. You told us that you were a member of the TO when these things

3 started in 1992.

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. You mean in Hambarine?

6 A. Yes, but those were just village patrols.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nasic and Mr. Trbojevic, please allow a short

8 interval between answer -- question and answer and vice versa, so that we

9 help the interpreters in their difficult job a little bit more than we

10 are. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

12 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We shall do our best, Your

13 Honour.

14 Q. That Territorial Defence unit which according to some information

15 we have had an office in the neighbourhood community centre, didn't it?

16 And it was supposed to have some weapons, some Territorial Defence weapons

17 that had been distributed earlier, isn't it? Did you know about that?

18 A. That's true. Some weapons there were, perhaps a couple of rifles,

19 old ones, some drum rifles, as they used to call them.

20 Q. And one of the chief activities were those village patrols, simply

21 to see who is coming, who is going, and who is passing through, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was there any cooperation between the relevant Territorial Defence

24 units in adjacent areas and between them?

25 A. I am not aware of that. I don't know it.

Page 12719

1 Q. You said that when the attack on Hambarine started, that plan was

2 to defend Hambarine, at least as long as people would need to withdraw

3 into the woods?

4 A. Yes, there was talk about that.

5 Q. Was it some agreement that you reached in the neighbourhood

6 community or in some place where this group of people decided that they

7 would take a position and try to hold on to it?

8 A. Well, it was more or less villagers there, local people.

9 Q. Well, I suppose you -- one would know should be somebody who would

10 be in command, who would say when to open fire, when to stop the fire?

11 A. I don't know. I wasn't really privy to this kind of thing. I

12 think that it -- Agan Sikiric was the TO commander, but I didn't

13 really -- but I wasn't really privy to any detail.

14 Q. You said that you saw the Serbs advancing with a mechanised units

15 that they were very strong and that they therefore any attempt to resist

16 would be in vain and that you waited for people to pull out and then you

17 pulled out from Hambarine?

18 A. Well, I don't really remember saying that I saw them.

19 Q. I will remind you on page 2 of your statement, the one of 1995,

20 you say, "We tried to get people out of the village and defend the village

21 but then the Serbs came with artillery and infantry. We saw that we

22 absolutely stood no fighting chance and therefore we withdrew to the

23 forest?

24 A. I mentioned today but this had to do with the artillery firing

25 from the rear.

Page 12720

1 Q. Is it true that you retreated from Hambarine before the Serb

2 infantry reached the village? Started moving from house to house?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can we then conclude that in this attack on Hambarine, except as a

5 result of artillery attacks, there were no other casualties which would be

6 due to the entry of the troops in Hambarine?

7 A. Well, I did not see anyone injured at the time but I did hear

8 about woundings.

9 Q. Tell me, that first moment after you left, I suppose you turned

10 back to see what the village looked like. Were there many houses set on

11 fire?

12 A. Not straight away, but as the time went by, more and more houses

13 were set on fire and destroyed.

14 Q. You say as the time went by, do you mean the day, hours after it,

15 or some days later?

16 A. Days later.

17 Q. Could you explain this to us? You said that a group of people

18 went to the water and were killed. You mentioned this on page 3 of your

19 1995 statement. You said, "The following morning four of our men were

20 killed when they went for water. Some of our men had rifles and

21 machine-guns, and they went to where the man had been shot in order to

22 defend the rest of us and allow us to get away." That's what you said?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, in relation to that paragraph, Mr.

25 Nasic made a correction to that statement. He didn't say rifles and

Page 12721

1 machine-guns, he said only rifles.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You've heard the question. You've also heard

3 the remark by Ms. Sutherland. What's your answer to the question?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the lady from the Prosecution

5 said, those were not machine-guns, those were personal weapons, which we

6 used in order to try and defend ourselves. Or rather the people who were

7 armed tried to defend us.

8 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation].

9 Q. And following that, when you describe that the soldiers appeared

10 and that about 500 people scattered away and then grouped in people of 50

11 or 150 and then there was a group of 114, you always said that nobody else

12 in the group had any weapons any more. How is that possible?

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, he testified today that some people

14 in the group did have some weapons.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I would rather let him answer the question

16 rather than intervene or interrupt in this way. Yes. Did you understand

17 Mr. Trbojevic's question?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And what's your answer?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As Mrs. Sutherland said, I've

21 already said that those were just pistols. When one says weaponry, on

22 weapons, that can refer to rifles, machine-guns, all kinds of things.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you happy with that answer, Mr. Trbojevic?

24 Shall we move to something else or do you want to put further questions on

25 the same topic?

Page 12722

1 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] No. We can go on and Your Honours

2 will evaluate the evidence.

3 Q. Following that, you described the situation where you entered the

4 Serb village, were encircled and detained. I'm now reading from your

5 statement where you say that, "One man tried to escape but one of the

6 soldiers killed him with an automatic rifle." And then you go on to say,

7 "We had to bury him in the field." That's on page three of your

8 statement, 1995 statement.

9 In your 1994 statement, using the only possible logic, you say,

10 "We went on." And this is in reference to the same situation. "So we

11 went on and passed two Muslim villages entered by mistake the Serbian

12 village." This corresponds to the other statement. And then you go on to

13 say, "There we were encircled by the Chetniks" and this is as in the last

14 statement. Then you go on to say, "Muhamed, called Duca, started fleeing

15 from the column and one Chetnik firing from the Pap rifle hit him directly

16 in the head and he dropped dead."

17 Is the same event described in these two statements?

18 A. I think there was a misunderstanding there. It is the same event,

19 the same man.

20 Q. And on one occasion, you used the automatic rifle, on the second

21 time, you say the PAP rifle?

22 A. Today, in my testimony, I pointed out that that was the PAP

23 rifle. I made a lot of corrections because when I gave that statement, I

24 did not agree with some things, because the interpreter had probably made

25 a mistake. Just like in that case, instead of the PAP rifle, they put in

Page 12723

1 the automatic rifle. However, it was the PAP rifle.

2 Q. This 1994 statement, where it says centre of security services in

3 Banja Luka, was probably given in Travnik, isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In your 1994 statement, on page 2, where I just read an excerpt

6 from, you said that on the 26th of July, after spending two nights and one

7 day in the forest and so on, a courier came and told us to gather and head

8 towards Bihac. That's what you said. Can you tell us whose courier was

9 it?

10 A. I don't know that. That wasn't a courier. We had a plan to set

11 out towards the free territory.

12 Q. It says "courier" here and there was no interpreting involved when

13 giving the statement. Could you have possibly said "courier" or there was

14 no courier at all?

15 A. As we were in groups, we had no means of communication, and

16 probably because of that, in order for the groups to communicate between

17 themselves, that is probably why I said a courier, because that was a

18 means of communication between the groups.

19 Q. On that same page, you said that "upon being taken to Miska Glava,

20 that the following day, people were called out one by one and interrogated

21 and beaten, and then on the second day, ten young men from Rizvanovici

22 were taken out and killed there." That's what you said. In your 1995

23 statement, when describing that event, on page 3 of that statement, you

24 said that "the military police came and took ten men away from Rizvanovici

25 village and that they had not been seen since." It seems that these two

Page 12724

1 descriptions are not quite identical, are they?

2 A. I apologise. The story involved three men, three young men. I

3 don't know if this is mentioned in any of these statements. I believe

4 that one of them was from Cazin area. One was from Bosanski Novi.

5 Q. I'm asking you about this group.

6 A. Could you please repeat your question?

7 Q. In 1994, when you described this in Travnik, you said that a list

8 was used to call out a group of ten men who were immediately killed

9 there. I am now retelling what you said, but along those lines. You said

10 the following day, we were called out from that list, interviewed and

11 beaten. The next day, ten young men from Rizvanovici were called out and

12 killed right there. This is what you said, whereas in the statement that

13 you gave the following year to the Prosecution, you said the military

14 police came and took ten men from Rizvanovici village and they were not

15 seen afterwards.

16 In the first statement, there is no mention of the military

17 police. You said that they were killed immediately, whereas the event is

18 described in different terms in the other statement.

19 A. I am sorry, but there must have been a mistake there. Three young

20 men were taken away. As to for these men from Rizvanovici, they were

21 taken out too and they never reappeared later on, and I assumed that they

22 had been killed.

23 Q. If you know, and since you moved in that area, can you tell me

24 what time of the day was it when the attack on Carakovo started?

25 A. As far as I know, there was just a search in Carakovo during which

Page 12725

1 a lot of people were killed.

2 Q. Was it at night, in the evening hours, early morning hours, at

3 mid-day? When was that?

4 A. Those were early morning hours.

5 Q. Now, tell me, please, as your convoy entered Tukovi, there were no

6 formalities involved, were there, no formal procedure, no documents were

7 shown; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You simply entered and got on to a truck; is that right?

10 A. Exactly so.

11 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

12 further questions.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there re-examination, Ms. Sutherland?

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Janu would like to ask some questions.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE JANU: Sir, you informed us that your brother was witnessing

19 the killing of your father and you also told us that the soldier said,

20 "One of you must die." So my question is who made the choice who will be

21 killed, your father or your brother? Was it the soldier or who?

22 A. My father.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we managed to finish with your testimony today,

24 as you see. And that will enable you to return back home earlier than you

25 probably were expecting. You will be attended to by the usher, who will

Page 12726

1 escort you out of this courtroom but before you leave it is my duty as the

2 Presiding Judge on my own behalf, on behalf of the other two Judges in

3 this Trial Chamber as well as the Tribunal to thank you for having

4 accepted to come and give evidence. You may now leave and I wish you a

5 safe journey back home.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trbojevic?

8 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, may my associate

9 be allowed to object to interpretation that was recorded in the

10 transcript, in order for me not to create the confusion, she will explain

11 in her good English what term was used instead of what?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem from the Prosecution either?

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please proceed.

15 MS. JEVTOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. If we go

16 on page 43, line 2, we will see that the word "cleansed" has been used,

17 and when this word was used --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. 43? Line 2?

19 MS. JEVTOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and later on too.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.

21 MS. JEVTOVIC: [Interpretation] The word "cleansed" was used. Then

22 the translation when going from the B/C/S booth was "ethnic cleansing" in

23 the language that I was listening to. The witness was talking about what

24 we used to earlier previous days translate as "mopping up" or "sweeping

25 up" or "cleaning." And we have the same occurrence on page 67, line 3.

Page 12727

1 That is all. Thank you.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour this is something that probably could

3 have been cleared up with the witness.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact if the witness is still here, we will bring

5 him back in, usher? Where is she? Ms. Gustin, please.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: The usher will be with the witness, Your Honour.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MS. JEVTOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, before you leave again because we had a small

13 problem. At a certain point, during your testimony, you were being asked

14 this series of questions and your answers were as follows and now I will

15 explain to you what the problem is. You were asked, "And when you weren't

16 at your aunt's house, where were you?" And you said, "We were hiding

17 in the woods, the same woods." And then you were asked, "Approximately

18 how many people were hiding in the woods were you?" And you answered,

19 "During the first day we had small groups of some 10, 20, 30 people

20 there." And then were you asked, "How long did you stay in the woods

21 for?" And you said, "About a month. To a month and a half." Question:

22 "Of the people that were in the woods, how many of them were armed?" And

23 you said, "I don't know. After the villages were cleansed." Now, what

24 did you mean by the word "cleansed" and what word exactly did you use?

25 THE WITNESS: Sorry, can you repeat the question.

Page 12728

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Page 12729

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes the question was this, you were asked of the

2 people that were in the woods how many of them were armed and you said, I

3 don't know after the villages were cleansed, the neighbouring villages

4 such as Biscani, Rakovcani, et cetera, there were some 300 to 400

5 civilians. You are reported here to have used the word "cleansed" after

6 the villages were cleansed. What word did you use and what did you mean

7 by that word?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what they called it,

9 cleansing.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What did you mean by it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. That simply is what

12 they called it, cleansing of the terrain.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Who called it like that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our people.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Cleansing of the terrain?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Terrain, villages. This is what our

17 people would say, they started cleansing the village. Because that word

18 was used quite a lot.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you ever heard the word ethnic cleansing?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I've heard about that word,

21 but in this case, no reference was made to ethnic cleansing. This was

22 just plain cleansing.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What we call mopping up as well?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it the equivalent of mopping up? Cleansing means

Page 12730

1 mopping up? Have you ever heard of the term "mopping up"? I don't know

2 how that is being translated to you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I truly don't know.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What I want from you is also another clarification.

5 Later on you said, you referred to -- you were asked to answer a question

6 about the death, the killing of your father and I myself asked you to

7 confirm whether the killing took place on the 21st of July or not and you

8 said, "I'm sorry, I'm not sure about the date but it was a day when

9 Biscani was cleansed." Also you mean cleansed, the terrain being

10 cleansed, and not ethnic cleansing?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Same word, same meaning. It was not

12 ethnic cleansing.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. You may now leave. Sorry for

14 having brought you back to the hall. Thank you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything?

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: First of all, I think Judge Janu may want the

21 audio-visual directors to take a photo of her in her elevated status. We

22 have a list of the witnesses for the Bosanski Novi municipality starting

23 around the 23rd of January.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.

Page 12731

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally we would also require, if possible,

2 that you enter a note showing the sequence in which these -- the next

3 municipalities will be dealt with. My staff requires it and I think also

4 the Defence would find it extremely useful.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour if I understand Ms. Korner well, we

6 will be completing the municipalities in the order they appear in the

7 pre-trial brief, although we have dropped a couple of those

8 municipalities.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But again, I mean Ms. Korner had confirmed that

10 orally. It's not that I doubt her word but I think for the proper conduct

11 of the proceedings if we have this document between now and when we

12 commence the Christmas recess, I think that would be quite useful at least

13 for my staff if not for the Defence. All right.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour we will provide you with that

15 before we begin again on the 13th of January.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think this is the last time we are sitting

17 before the holidays, and I am taking this opportunity on my behalf and on

18 behalf of my two colleagues to wish you all the very best for the festive

19 season, those who celebrate Christmas and those who -- and the new year,

20 and those who don't. And we will look forward to resuming our works on

21 the 12th of -- 13th of January. So our greetings. To you as well,

22 Mr. Brdjanin.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

25 the 13th day of January, 2003.