Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13461

1 Friday, 24 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

7 please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

9 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you.

11 Can you follow the proceedings in a language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner assisted by Denise Gustin, case

16 manager. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, to you both.

18 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, I'm John Ackerman

20 with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you three as

22 well. Colonel we are continuing and hopefully finishing with your

23 cross-examination, and then I understand there will be a short

24 re-examination and possibly some questions from the bench. So let's

25 start.

Page 13462


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued].

6 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel Selak and welcome back to your last day

7 here, at least this trip. I need you to have the war diary again, please.

8 A. Good afternoon to you too.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I think the Prosecutor has it.

10 Q. We are going very close to the end of that document, sir. The

11 page is 4736. 250 -- 260 in English. 4736.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You'll find an entry, I believe, that reads as follows: "At 1100

14 hours, a group of military judges and Prosecutors arrived because of a

15 large number of cases pending trial. The Court was ordered to organise

16 round the clock work and to update cases as soon as possible. The

17 misdemeanors magistrate will also work on a 24-hour basis."

18 Based on your military experience, would you have any idea what

19 this backlog of cases was? What kind of cases it was that these judges

20 and Prosecutors were coming there to work around the clock trying to deal

21 with?

22 A. I assume that it was a large number of deserters that were being

23 tried, deserters from the units and failure to respond to the call-up and

24 mobilisation call, to report to the military units, and other

25 infringements against military provisions and laws, which all military

Page 13463

1 personnel come under, and citizens employed, civilians employed in

2 military units as well are subject to those laws and provisions.

3 It is not the civil courts that are in charge of persons of that

4 kind but the military courts.

5 Q. And it would also be, I suppose, fair to assume that some of these

6 cases might also have had to deal with these problems of looting that have

7 been mentioned throughout here and that General Talic seemed to be so

8 concerned about. Does that make sense?

9 A. Possibly. I would like it to be so, because that would have

10 prevented looting and plunder, yes, and this would have made the authority

11 of the unit greater.

12 Q. Now, I want to do this as quickly as I can. There are two places

13 in this war diary, sir, one is -- it's page 68 in the English edition, if

14 you want to look at it, it's 4566. I don't think you need to but you can

15 if you want. And then the other place is at page 101 in the English, and

16 that would be, for you, 4597. Both of those places, the diary speaks of

17 businessmen from Banja Luka arriving for visits to the command. The first

18 one just says that, businessmen [Realtime transcript read in error

19 "American"] from Banja Luka arrived for a visit.

20 The second entry -- and that was 11 July. The second entry, 20

21 July, "A group of private businessmen from Banja Luka arrived today and

22 brought us various radio sets as a gift." What would be the purpose for

23 businessmen coming to the forward command?

24 A. Businessmen came to the forward command because it was certainly

25 in their interests for the army to perform the tasks intended for it. And

Page 13464

1 so both materially and financially, they assisted it. There were donors

2 who supplied money, who gave money contributions to assist the army and

3 others would give material goods in this case various appliances,

4 equipment and so on. I know for a fact that businessmen came to visit

5 very frequently both from private firms and socially owned and social

6 organisations.

7 Q. And do you know what it -- do you have any idea what it would mean

8 that they brought various radio sets as a gift? A gift to who? What

9 would that all be about? Do you have any idea?

10 A. Radio receivers. They are not radio stations. They were radio

11 receivers for the work -- battery operated, they were, these radio sets so

12 that the officers and soldiers in the trenches up at the front could, say,

13 hear the news over the radio.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ackerman.

15 Colonel, I notice that the last entry, the one page -- relating to

16 20 August, refers to a date when you had already left the army. How do

17 you know these things? How do you know what kind of radios were brought

18 over by the businessmen from Banja Luka? And incidentally for the record,

19 as far as the first entry is concerned, the transcript refers to American

20 businessmen from Banja Luka, which is incorrect. You never mentioned

21 American businessmen.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: He never did.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm referring to page 3 line 18.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the information media, let me

25 explain, on television, in the press, radio Banja Luka, there were cases

Page 13465

1 broadcast of this type, and while I was an active duty officer, they would

2 come to my own units, giving gifts of other products, not only technical

3 goods but other things, even clothing and gloves, things of that kind, too

4 so that's how I know. And I heard it over television and the radio and

5 the other information media. It was quite customary even before, not only

6 during the war. This was done in peacetime too.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Sir, the next place I want to direct you to is page 4550. It's

10 page 51 English, and --

11 A. Just a moment, please. Give me a moment to find it. 4550, you

12 said.

13 Q. Actually, I think it's 4549 -- no it's 4550. I'm right the first

14 time.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are referring to the entry of the 6th July,

16 Colonel.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you find it, Colonel?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I have.



22 Q. Right at the very end of that day's entry, you'll see an entry,

23 "The General left for Banja Luka to attend a service marking the death of

24 Colonel Milan Stevilovic and the others."

25 The question I want to ask you about that is: Was it to your

Page 13466

1 knowledge customary, required, for any time the general left the area that

2 it be entered in the logbook?

3 A. Well, not customary, because that was his professional duty. He

4 had to attend commemorative sessions of this kind and other meetings, but

5 the officer on duty saw fit to record that. And the person on duty knew

6 where the commander was going, so he didn't actually have to enter all

7 those details into the logbook but it's up to the duty officer and the

8 team on duty, in fact, to decide.

9 Q. So there is no requirement that the duty officer account for

10 General Talic leaving the command for a period of time? That doesn't have

11 to be in the logbook? Is that what you're saying?

12 A. I said that when the corps commander or unit commander, whichever,

13 leaves his office, well people aren't going to record where he's gone

14 every time. He just tells his deputy orally or the team on duty where

15 he's going so that he can be reached in an emergency. Now, if he goes

16 further away from the area of responsibility or he goes up to the front to

17 visit some operative groups, then he would have to write in the time he

18 left and where he left for.

19 Q. I just want to make sure that we are understanding each other.

20 What I'm not asking you is whether the purpose of his trip needs to be

21 recorded. What I'm asking you is if it's required that some mention be

22 put in the logbook that General Talic has left for Banja Luka, for

23 instance. Or can he just go without that ever showing up in the logbook?

24 A. It had to be recorded in the logbook. Information of that kind

25 had to be recorded.

Page 13467

1 Q. All right.

2 A. It can also take the form of an official note written by the duty

3 officer.

4 Q. Could I have you look at, then, let's do this as quickly as I can,

5 4590? That would be page 92 English. I'll tell you it simply says: "At

6 1000 hours General Talic left for a meeting in Banja Luka."

7 A. Give me a moment please. I have the page but I haven't found at

8 1000 hours, that passage. Yes, I see it I've found it.

9 Q. Then you if you go to 4606 --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. 22 July, you see General Talic left for a meeting in Banja Luka.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And if you go to page 4655, the very last entry on that page for 6

14 August, 164 English?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It not only records that he went to Banja Luka but says why,

17 "General Talic left for Banja Luka to attend a meeting at which all units

18 of the 1st Krajina Corps were given clear instructions for further

19 operations in the Krajina section of the front." Correct?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. So in this case, they also recorded the purpose, didn't they?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If you look at 4674, right at the very beginning, at 0800 hours,

24 "General Talic left for Banja Luka and the forward command post at Kula

25 Mrkonjic Grad, to meet the President of the Serbian Republic of

Page 13468

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Radovan Karadzic for talks on the situation on the

2 front and the organisation of the Serbian army."

3 So he had gone there to have a meeting basically with the

4 Commander-in-Chief, had he not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the last one, sir, look at page 4707, part way through the --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- entry for 21 August, "General Talic stayed in Banja Luka for a

9 meeting with the commanders of brigades and the presidents of

10 municipalities from the area covered by the 1st Krajina Corps. They

11 discussed the situation on the front and functioning of authority."

12 Now, I will tell you that I have not been able to find any other

13 entries in this war diary about General Talic leaving and going to Banja

14 Luka except the six that we have just talked about. And among the six

15 that we have just talked about, none of those indicated that he was going

16 to Banja Luka to meet with Mr. Brdjanin or with the President of the ARK

17 Crisis Staff or anything of that nature, do they?

18 A. That's right, but he did have his representatives or rather his

19 assistants. He had an assistant for moral guidance and legal affairs,

20 Colonel Vukelic, head of security, Colonel Stevo Bogojevic and Colonel

21 Vujnovic - what was his first name - Gojko Vujnovic, and they attended

22 those meetings or rather they could attend those meetings on his behalf.

23 And Colonel Marcetic the head, the Chief of Staff. So General Talic

24 didn't always have to be present but he was always informed by his

25 subordinates and they would attend these sessions both in the municipality

Page 13469

1 and of the Regional Crisis Staff on his behalf.

2 Q. All right, sir. Finally we are finished with the war diary, no

3 more questions about that. I want you to take -- I want to ask you this

4 question first, see if you recall this. During my cross-examination of

5 you two or three days ago, we were talking about the organisation of

6 Muslims in Kozarac and the arming of Muslims in Kozarac and I think where

7 we finally got was you agreed that certainly some of the Muslim people in

8 that area would have had weapons, hunting weapons and other kinds of

9 weapons but I think you rather emphatically told us that there was no

10 organised TO units, Muslim TO units, operating in that area. Did I fairly

11 characterise what you told us?

12 MS. KORNER: Can you give a page reference for that on the

13 LiveNote?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I can't, I don't have it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: The last few days he's been forgetting that.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?


18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes. I did say that a number -- a certain number of citizens had

20 hunting weapons, with the legal permits, but I believe that another part

21 of the population did not have permits for the weapons that they could

22 procure, but what I was saying was that there was no military organisation

23 on the part of the Muslims, the Bosniaks. Military formations. I don't

24 know about the weapons. I don't know how many people did have weapons.

25 But I'm sure that a lot of them did, because those were the kinds of times

Page 13470

1 they were. People were afraid for their lives and afraid for the lives of

2 their families and in that kind of situation I'm sure I would buy a weapon

3 too to protect myself and my family.

4 Q. When you say there was no military organisation, what you're

5 saying there was no organised or mobilised Muslim TO units there?

6 A. What I'm saying is this: That in the local communities, people

7 set up barricades in order to control the passage of certain vehicles and

8 they organised themselves --

9 Q. The question is simple. Were there organised or mobilised TO

10 units in Kozarac? That's all I want to know from you.

11 A. As far as I know, no, there weren't.

12 Q. Would you look, please, at DB127? Now, there are two things I'd

13 like you to pay attention to with regard to this document. One is that

14 it's entitled, "List of mobilisation," and the second is that each page

15 refers to Stab, TO Kozarac. And what you should find and take your time

16 and look through it, is a list of members of the TO Kozarac and the

17 weapons which they possessed, and when you've read it --

18 A. Yes, I can see that. I can see the signatures and it says,

19 "Hunting rifle, pistol, 7.65, et cetera." Underneath that the people who

20 don't have any. And of the 33, I see that only three or four men were

21 armed, in fact, out of the 33 there.

22 Q. Well, if you keep going, you're going to find that there were

23 quite a few weapons and you're going to find that several of them were

24 sort of classic military weapons.

25 A. On page A 12 of the 28 persons there, not a single one, nor does

Page 13471

1 it say -- of the 49 people, there is a hunting rifle, it says here pistol,

2 7.62, one has a M-48 rifle and that's all. All I can see of all these 49

3 people mentioned.

4 Q. What is a PAP? Can you tell me what a PAP?

5 A. A semi-automatic rifle. Where did you see the PAP?

6 Q. If you look at A/1/13, entry number 27, you'll see that.

7 A. Number 27, you say?

8 Q. Dedo Karabasic.

9 A. Give me a moment, please. I'm not looking at the same thing,

10 then.

11 Q. In the upper right-hand corner, you should see an A/1/13.

12 A. I have 3/4 -- yes, just a moment. I don't seem to be on the same

13 page. 12? That's fine. Under 27, yes, it says here semi-automatic

14 rifle, personal weapon for Dedo Karabasic, yes.

15 Q. Go you go up to number 17 can you tell us what a automasko licno

16 oruzje is or whatever? I can't read that. Do you know what that is?

17 A. Automatic personal weapon. Well it could be an automatic gun, a

18 pistol -- it could be a pistol or a rifle. A personal weapon. It doesn't

19 say clearly what it is, but it is a weapon, a personal weapon.

20 Q. And I think a M-48 is kind of an older model military weapon, is

21 it not?

22 A. Yes. Manufactured in 1948.

23 Q. It's clear from these that someone was making a serious effort to

24 list all the people and the weapons that they had with regard to this stab

25 TO Kozarac or TO, BiH, Kozarac, isn't it?

Page 13472

1 A. Yes, but this could be expected. People were not going to

2 voluntarily offer their heads, but were going to try to protect their

3 lives. From what you can see, one can conclude that this is a minimum of

4 what a unit of the Territorial Defence should normally have. This is the

5 strictest minimum.

6 Q. Could you look at --

7 A. 2 per cent of the people were armed here, according to this.

8 Q. Would you look at page A/1/82, please?

9 A. A/1/82? Just a moment, please. Yes.

10 Q. Number 77 on that list, I can't -- I don't know what that means,

11 after the entry. I don't know whether that says zolja or what that says,

12 that looks like it says two bomb?

13 A. Yes, "zolja - two hand grenades," and then this other thing I'm

14 not sure, but that's what it says. All these weapons could be normally

15 obtained on the black market, that is on the local market. So this really

16 does not reflect anything. I mean, all this in case of a normal operative

17 army, operative military, these are just toys.

18 Q. It's awfully different from what you told us was absolutely no

19 organised TO units in Kozarac, isn't it? There clearly was organised TO

20 units in Kozarac. They signed up, they declared their weapons, the whole

21 thing.

22 A. Yes. This is just a list of people and weapons that they

23 possess. This is not a military formation, because in a military

24 formation, the strength of the unit would be regulated, including the

25 company, platoons, and so on and so forth, including also who the

Page 13473












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13474

1 commander officer was and the Chief of Staff. Here I only see a list of

2 people who could have been organised if -- if I'd been there, I would have

3 organised them. Unfortunately, they were not organised themselves and

4 this is why the genocide took place, because they had no one to defend

5 them.

6 Q. All right. Now what I want you to do is go to page A/1/93.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I think what you see on those pages there is a formal or

9 formal mobilisation orders for the TO Kozarac, aren't they?

10 A. Yes. It says here, "General mobilisation call, local community

11 Kozarac," and so on.

12 Q. All right. I'm finished with that document, sir. I'm now going

13 to ask you to again take out your notebook, we will try to get through

14 some things in there very quickly that I want to talk to you about, and

15 then we'll be finished.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. First place we are going is 26 December, 1991.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Under number 2, commander's report, there is a -- it says VBS, and

20 then in our translation, there is some question about what that is. The

21 translator thinks it's military hospital Sarajevo. Is that right?

22 A. Yes. That's quite right. The Sarajevo military hospital, and now

23 we see the problems of the specialists, the problems with the personal

24 income, which at the time was 15.000. Here we also see that they lacked

25 some basic medicines such as the kofan and other.

Page 13475

1 Q. What I was interested in with regard to this, just to bring your

2 attention to, the shortage of basic medical supplies, was that a

3 continuing problem during this period of time or not?

4 A. Yes. That was a continuing problem at the time, but it -- we

5 also -- they also had a problem with electricity cuts, power shortages,

6 and the fact that they did not have enough generators -- well, actually

7 no, they did have electricity on the 26th of December, 1991, but they were

8 already lacking medicine. The problem with energy would arise only later

9 on.

10 Q. Outside, going outside Sarajevo now, into the -- your area of

11 responsibility, was there a problem there with shortage of basic medical

12 supplies, during primarily early 1992?

13 A. Yes. There was. We managed to get via Belgrade, that is from the

14 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, something; the corridor had been

15 established in the meantime. But it is true that medicines for treating

16 combatants and the civilian population in general were lacking in the

17 Krajina at the time.

18 Q. And especially during that period of time that the corridor was

19 closed and supplies couldn't come from Belgrade, it became a rather

20 critical problem, did it not?

21 A. It became a problem for all, for the military and civilian

22 authorities in this area, and I'm sure that there were consequences.

23 Q. Look, if you will, please, now, just a little further down, there

24 is a -- it's "see chief of army housing institution." There is an entry

25 there that says: "Programme for tenants to buy out their apartments,

Page 13476

1 paper work prepared." Can you explain to us what that was about.

2 A. Excuse me, what page are you referring to?

3 Q. It's the same date, 26 December, just a little further down from

4 where we have been talking about.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. There is a "see chief of army housing institution," and then it

7 talks about a programme for tenants to buy out their apartments, paper

8 work prepared?

9 A. Yes, yes, yes. I see. The programme to buy out the apartments,

10 that such a programme was prepared, you mean. What is referred to is the

11 action of buying out the apartments that were property of the housing

12 fund, and that could be bought by the active duty servicemen and other

13 employees of the Yugoslav People's Army.

14 Q. So these -- correct me if I'm wrong -- these were apartment that

15 is were previously owned by the army, basically, and then the army decided

16 to allow the active duty servicemen to purchase those apartments if they

17 wished to?

18 A. Active duty officers. Conscripts who were doing their military

19 service did not have such right. Only officers and civilians employed

20 with the JNA.

21 Q. And do you know when that programme was initiated? Was it around

22 this time in December of 1991?

23 A. Yes. That is when it started, and I think it lasted until the

24 15th of February, 1992.

25 Q. Okay. Go just a little further now to number 5, Colonel Milicevic

Page 13477

1 on mobilisation. There is an entry that says "The general manpower level

2 in the first military district at 60 per cent." Does that mean that the

3 units are only overall at 60 per cent of authorised strength?

4 A. Yes. At the time, the strength was also -- only 60 per cent of

5 the 1st military district. That is to say a mobilisation had been

6 proclaimed and a number of people did not respond. However, in respect of

7 certain units, the mobilisation was declared null and void because combat

8 operations were not taking place in the entire area of responsibility of

9 the 1st military district, and that is why the mobilisation was declared

10 null and void, because there were other units who were in charge of the

11 rest of the Bosnian Krajina and it was only logical that not all units

12 should be mobilised.

13 Q. Who had the power to declare a mobilisation null and void? Who

14 could do that?

15 A. I didn't say invalid. The commander of the 1st military district

16 could in respect of the units on the territory of the Republic of Serbia

17 choose not to declare such a mobilisation. It is his right to decide

18 which of his units are going to be mobilised on the basis of his

19 assessment of the situation and what units he needed. The general

20 mobilisation in the entire area of the former Yugoslavia could only be

21 declared by the Presidency of Yugoslavia.

22 Q. Yes. But the question, and think we have a translation problem,

23 you had told us that the mobilisation was declared -- for parts of the

24 area, was declared null and void. I did not say "invalid." I said "null

25 and void," which I think is what you said. My question is: Who has the

Page 13478

1 power to declare a mobilisation null and void?

2 A. Yes, yes, I see.

3 Q. Who has that power? Who can do that?

4 A. The commander of the 1st military district, in respect of the

5 military district.

6 Q. If you go now to -- on the same date to paragraph 8, General

7 Vidovic. "General Vidovic reports that military courts convicted 232

8 persons." Would you have any idea what kind of offences these were, the

9 people were being convicted for?

10 A. I don't know. In respect of the 1st military district, like I

11 said, it covered a very large area from Novi Sad all way to the southern

12 Serbia including Sarajevo, Banja Luka, Mostar. It was a huge area and I

13 really -- I didn't know. I wasn't interested in that. I just made a note

14 in my notebook. I Just wrote down this piece of information.

15 Q. Okay. Can you go now to 7 January, 1992?

16 A. Just a moment. Here I have the 6th. Just a second. Yes.

17 Q. Right before 7 January, do you have a page in your notebook that

18 has a list of a bunch of page numbers, or is this something that's just in

19 our translation? It says page 95, page 120, 121, 132 through 136.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: That's at page 24, Your Honours, in the English.

21 Q. Do you have that right before the January 7 entry? Just a list of

22 page numbers?

23 A. No. On page 29 of my diary, before the 7th of January, I have a

24 conversation with a commander of the 2nd military warehouse, and I have

25 enumerated the items and there are seven numbers, seven items on the list.

Page 13479

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel, are you not being correct. Look, please,

2 at page 01036889, and at the back of it, 01036890. These are the numbers

3 or the entry that Mr. Ackerman is referring you to, to confirm whether

4 they exist or not in your original diary and notebook, and they do exist

5 because I have them here in front of me.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please. You can have

9 a look at my notebook. I don't have that in my notebook. I don't know

10 what we are talking about. Here. Have a look.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It must be there. I don't think anyone invented it.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it wasn't that he was denying the

13 mistakes. The point I'm trying to make it wasn't that he was denying it

14 was there, whatever Your Honour is looking at, yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the page that you indicated, sir,

16 no, I didn't say anything in respect of other pages. Please refer me to

17 the exact page and we will solve the problem.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Sir, I'm doing the best I can but I can't find it

19 either, so I'm not surprised that you can't.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, as I can see it, it's somewhere between the

21 3rd January 1992 entry and the 8 January 1992 entry.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you want me to, I can have a look

24 at the English version and try to help. It will maybe remind me of the

25 equivalent page in the original.

Page 13480

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What we will do, Colonel, very simply put --

2 Usher, please come here. Give this to the witness. Show him this

3 page and the back of it, and then he will find it in his original for sure

4 because I'm pretty sure this is not something which is made up.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Can you also show this him. This is what the

6 English version that I have looks like.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is my handwriting.

8 Whether this is from the same notebook, I don't know. Let me just have a

9 look. These should be the same pages as the ones in the notebook. I

10 think I wrote this as my personal notes of important things with respect

11 of this war diary. The page number is 95. Let me have a look, please.

12 Yes. Once again, this is my handwriting but I don't have it in my

13 notebook. I don't know where it can be found, but it is my handwriting.

14 The last entry, page 64, makes mention of the financing of the VRS from --

15 by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, at the situation as of the 20th of

16 May. Yes, I can only confirm that this is my handwriting but I still

17 don't have it in my notebook and these are the page numbers of my diary.


19 Q. Is it likely a document you prepared for the Office of the

20 Prosecutor to direct them to the parts of your notebook that you thought

21 important?

22 A. No, sir. Here is a piece of paper where I made note of the

23 important things, the things that I consider to be significant from this

24 notebook. I have prepared them for this occasion as well, in order not to

25 wander too much. If you ask me so that I can quote the correct

Page 13481

1 information, in order not to waste time. Only for that reason. You can

2 check the number of the diary page.

3 Q. I'm perfectly willing at this point to let it all remain a mystery

4 but I do -- I would like my piece of paper back. We had made it to 7

5 January then, and the only thing I wanted to call your attention to on

6 that page --

7 A. Just a moment. Yes.

8 Q. The only thing I want to draw your attention to is under

9 quartermaster service, they mention a shortage of sugar. Was that a

10 continuing problem or was that just at that particular time?

11 A. I'm not sure. This was reported by the chief quartermaster

12 officer, that there was a shortage of sugar, and that we would have to

13 borrow it from work organisations. What we are talking about here is the

14 sugar needed for the units in the area of responsibility of the logistical

15 base. He said that we should go ahead with the borrowing and that we

16 would return them -- the commodity later on because the problem needed to

17 be solved.

18 Q. Thank you. Go now to 8 January, please, the next day, under

19 political and moral guidance.

20 A. Oh, I see.

21 Q. It says under 30 per cent of men present in the units, that means

22 that more than 70 per cent aren't? Is this because of desertion? Or what

23 is this?

24 A. No. See here, an approval was issued that the units who do not

25 need to have a reserve component because they are not taking part in

Page 13482

1 combat operations, if they are able to perform their tasks with the peace

2 time force, that they can return the surplus of their human resources to

3 the enterprises. This is what we are talking about here. I personally

4 did not have any problems with the manpower, and I gave my consent to the

5 commander. I told the commander of -- commanders of my subordinate units

6 that they should return these people if they did not need them to the

7 economy, to various businesses.

8 Q. Well, if we go to the next day, just the very next day, 9 January,

9 under the heading, "Reporting," for instance the 2nd ammunition depot

10 commander reports a large number of unauthorised absences, unauthorised

11 departure by conscripts is probable and expected, that people are stealing

12 weapons from you," doesn't he?

13 A. Could you please repeat? Because what I have -- oh, reporting for

14 the 9th. And you're referring to the next page? The page after that?

15 Yes.

16 Q. "2nd ammunition depot commander reports that there are a large

17 number of unauthorised absences," in fact it's more than that. "There are

18 shootouts around the town at guard posts, ten conscripts went AWOL from

19 their unit, not coming back, can't afford experimenting with the military

20 organisation, a large number of unauthorised absences, unauthorised

21 departure by conscripts probable and expected, and stealing of weapons."

22 Those are things he reports, right?

23 A. Yes. Major Obrad Nikic from the ammunition depot in Mrkonjic Grad

24 where the command of the 30th Partisan Division of the Colonel, now

25 general, Galic was located. That was his command post and it is true that

Page 13483

1 they had problems. However, the unit managed to carry out all of their

2 assignments. They were burdened with some other problems, which this

3 person is indicating here, but the issue was finally resolved with

4 Colonel Galic at the time, who was based in the barracks.

5 Q. Now, the question that -- the thing that baffles me about this

6 and- that maybe you can help me with is this: This is a military

7 installation. It's an ammunition depot. How is it that they are not able

8 to provide sufficient security to keep people from stealing weapons? How

9 can that be?

10 A. Weapons were arriving on a daily basis by trucks, but they also

11 left in trucks, to the units of the corps, and we were informed of this

12 problem. However, the human factor, or rather the mobilisation, resulted

13 in the fact that there was a large number of dissatisfied people who were

14 afraid for their safety and they simply fled. We are talking about ten

15 conscripts, people who had been mobilised, who had left the unit on their

16 own, and the problem was discussed, but there were many units that were

17 faced with this kind of problem.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... This is probably related to

19 this unauthorised departure by conscripts and as they unauthorisedly

20 departed they took weapons with them, thereby stealing them? Is that what

21 you're telling us?

22 A. No. They weren't stealing them. They were close by and so, from

23 Mrkonjic and the neighbouring villages, from the Mrkonjic municipality,

24 the commander of their company and platoon allowed them to take weapons

25 because the people were afraid. This was contrary to military provisions

Page 13484

1 and laws, but unfortunately that's what happened. So they didn't actually

2 agree to them taking the weapons home, but I had a lot of problems in that

3 warehouse for -- because of other matters. I don't want to focus on that

4 now in this courtroom, but perhaps I could make a statement to that

5 effect.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel Selak, in the entry, the third entry from

7 the bottom, under one, reporting, number 1, second ammunition depot

8 commander, you do have stealing of weapons. So what is being referred to

9 or meant by that entry? If it's not what you have been mentioning, what

10 kind of stealing of weapons is being referred to? Stealing of weapons

11 from where?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The weapons were stolen from the

13 units themselves. There were cases when the duty officer of the unit, the

14 unit in a company, a soldier would be on duty and would go to sleep while

15 on duty. And people would take advantage of this, seize the weapons, and

16 carry them off home. So things like that did happen. I never said they

17 didn't.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you happy with that, Mr. Ackerman?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead, then.


22 Q. Sir, on the next page, it's the entry about the third fuel depot.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It says, "130 conscripts would like to volunteer after the

25 mobilisation announcement." What does that mean? They are already

Page 13485












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13486

1 conscripts. What are they volunteering for?

2 A. What this is about is that some of these soldiers were released

3 and left to go home. The commander of the warehouse discharged the

4 soldiers, the surplus soldiers, the ones he didn't need, and they were

5 allowed to go home. However, people still came in because they would be

6 given money, and so probably they didn't have enough money and then

7 volunteered. They wanted to be called up into the units first.

8 Q. Okay. Go now to number 16, in this same list where we were just

9 at number 3. Just keep going until you get to number 16 which talks about

10 the quartermaster service, and the quartermaster service --

11 A. Number 5? Not 16. I apologise but I think it's number 5, the

12 quartermaster service. We talked about number 3, 4 were the reserve

13 parts.

14 Q. Keep going.

15 A. This is 5.

16 Q. Go to 16, it's quartermaster service. You're looking at

17 quartermaster stores.

18 A. I see yes.

19 Q. It says, "some manufacturers cancelling orders." These would be

20 orders the army had given to these manufacturers who are now cancelling

21 them and not supplying what the army had asked for? Is that what that

22 means?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were they doing that because of this shortage problem we've

25 been discussing, the inability to get the raw materials necessary to

Page 13487

1 fulfil these -- those orders?

2 A. I assume that was so. I didn't say which goods they were, which

3 materials, but I do believe that that was the reason.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Just out of curiosity, there is throughout your

5 notebook on occasion, you refer to one combat set of ammunition. Could

6 you tell us what one combat set of ammunition consists of?

7 A. One combat set of ammunition is a pistol, six bullets, for an

8 automatic rifle or rather the M-48, 7, 9 millimetres, that would be five

9 bullets and so on. For a tank, for example, let's take the T-55 tank, 35

10 grenades. So every type of weapon would have a combat set of ammunition

11 that would be issued for it. And so this is a mathematical calculation.

12 When the commander plans an operation of any kind, he tells the

13 units what part of the combat set they can use, artillery ammunition and

14 so on, infantry ammunition and so on. So these are calculations and this

15 was essential to have the necessary supplies. It was also essential

16 because it stipulated how much ammunition each person could have with him

17 so as not to weigh down the soldiers in combat, and these supplies were

18 filled by the logistics base.

19 Q. That's very helpful. Thank you. If you go to January 14th, the

20 last entry on January 14th, you indicate that you were informed that a

21 Golf car was missing from the headquarters administration staff with an

22 automatic rifle and one combat set of ammunition. So that would mean an

23 automatic rifle and, like, six rounds or something. Correct?

24 A. Just a moment. I've found the 14th of January but -- yes. Here

25 it is. The last one. Just a moment, please. Security, specifications, I

Page 13488

1 don't know what this is. I was informed at exactly 1230 hours. Probably

2 the chief of security because I see that underneath that, point 11, refers

3 to the chief of security and I don't know what was undertaken.

4 Q. I'm really trying to move a little more rapidly. And the only

5 thing I'm interested in here is: With that automatic rifle, one combat

6 set of ammunition would have been how many rounds?

7 A. For an automatic rifle that would be eight -- 16 bullets.

8 Q. All right. You told us --

9 A. Two rounds of eight bullets each, 16.

10 Q. You told us a few minutes ago when we were talking about

11 mobilisation, and this was referring to JNA times, that it was only the --

12 I think you said the president of the republic that could order a full --

13 the president of SFRY, that could order a full Yugoslav JNA mobilisation.

14 Is that what you said? I don't want to misquote you. Just tell me if

15 that's what you said.

16 A. Yes. I said in peacetime. If the assembly cannot meet, the

17 assembly of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, then what happens is that

18 on its behalf, the decisions are made by the Presidency on all issues

19 including that of mobilisation.

20 Q. So when the -- when the VRS was formed, and the rules and

21 regulations that had previously dictated operations within JNA were

22 adopted, then it would have been the Presidency of Republika Srpska that

23 would have been able to declare public mobilisation in the absence of the

24 assembly?

25 A. Yes. I assume that the constitution of the Serb Republic of --

Page 13489

1 actually, I haven't read the constitution of the Serb Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I think this was done in the name of the assembly

3 and the president of the republic and the Supreme Commander can make

4 decisions of that kind.

5 Q. What about the Ministry of National Defence? Would the Ministry

6 of National Defence actually be the organ that would announce and organise

7 that mobilisation?

8 A. The Ministry of Defence is at the head of the units, and if it has

9 being given authorisation from the competent authorities, that is to say

10 the assembly or the Supreme Commander, rather the President, then it would

11 have to conduct preparations, and to proclaim a mobilisation, I don't

12 think it can do so on its own bat.

13 Q. Let's look at, and I just kind of want to get your take on P137,

14 please. 137. Let me see what you have there. That doesn't look right to

15 me.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm going to move on to something

17 else.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, Mr. Ackerman, thank you.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: If necessary, I can live without that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: 371. Let's try that. Yes.

22 Q. All right. You have a document signed by a person named

23 Lieutenant Colonel Milorad Sajic, and I think you and I talked about him

24 briefly last week, did we not, or earlier this week?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13490

1 Q. And what this purports to be, among other things, is a decision

2 ordering the general public mobilisation on the whole territory of the

3 Autonomous Region of Krajina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, I take it that somebody in the position of Lieutenant Colonel

6 Milorad Sajic could not, on his own, declare a mobilisation, but that that

7 authority had to come from the highest levels of government, and here it

8 says the Ministry of National Defence of the Serbian Republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina is the source, doesn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Let's go back to your notebook. I want you to look

12 under 16 January, 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if you go, there is an introduction under that there is a 1

15 and a 2, and if you keep going, then you'll get to another area, where

16 there is also a 1 and a 2. It's that second 2 that I'm interested in,

17 that starts with large consumption of small arms ammunition.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Underneath that there is a paragraph that -- it's not -- it's not

20 well translated, maybe, but here is what it seems to say. "The fact that

21 a state of war has not been declared reflects negatively on logistical

22 support because of the difficulties involved in using the MR, material

23 reserves, of the territory and the SRR, strategic stockpiles, including

24 preventing their use and attempts to hide or perhaps conceal them and

25 obstructing the supply lines." Tell me -- tell us what that all means.

Page 13491

1 A. I should like to ask you, if you would, or rather I'm looking at

2 this reference to ammunitions in two portions, in two sections. So I'm

3 not sure I can find it. I'm reading this here. "Due to the enormous

4 usage of ammunition."

5 Q. That's not where we are. It says, "The fact that a state of war

6 has not been declared." It's under number 2, it's the second number 2.

7 Number 1 is "fuel given to business organisations." Number 2 is "large

8 consumption of small arms ammunition." And then you just go down a couple

9 of paragraphs and you see, "The fact that a state of war has not been

10 declared." It's fairly early on 16 January?

11 A. Ah, 54, yes.

12 Q. Mentions --

13 A. Yes, I've found it, that's right.

14 Q. What is that about? What are these material reserves and

15 strategic stockpiles, and how do they relate to whether or not a state of

16 war has been declared?

17 A. There was large consumption of both ammunition and fuel by the

18 units here, and this is an analysis of the logistics supplies in my own

19 command. The problems were put forward, and we see 80.000 bullets are

20 mentioned here which is what one brigade requires for a 7.65 millimetre

21 pistol. This is a criminal act, because where can a brigade in combat use

22 80.000 bullets? I ask you. And so the corps commander was supplied with

23 this information. We focused on those figures because they would not have

24 the ammunition they needed when they most required it. So that's why we

25 went to Gornji Milanovac and Skoplje and Tetovo and other towns Serbia to

Page 13492

1 bring in both fuel and ammunition and the other things that were needed.

2 Q. I'm really trying to finish and the question I asked you was

3 what -- it's the next paragraph down where we are talking about the fact

4 that a state of war has not been declared. You see that paragraph?

5 "The fact that a state of war has not been declared?"

6 A. Yes. The fact a state of war has not been declared creates

7 problems to the army, because declaration of a state of war then the

8 units, if that is done, then the units can ask companies to supply them

9 with the necessary material once a state of war has been declared. In

10 peacetime, they have to be contracts signed and agreed upon for several

11 years, but in wartime, the army disposes of human and material potential

12 in its area of responsibility.

13 Q. These are -- this is materiel that is basically stockpiled,

14 reserves, strategic reserves and material reserves that can only be tapped

15 if there is a declaration of war? I think that's what you're saying.

16 A. Yes. But even then, the material reserves of the territory are

17 given on the basis of a percentage. Let me give you an example. Federal

18 fuel reserves in 1992, in Prijedor, the army was allowed to use a part of

19 those reserves and the autonomous region was allowed to use the other

20 portion, the Energopetrol company and some other companies were given 60

21 per cent of those republican -- I beg your pardon, I meant republican

22 reserves and federal reserves.

23 Q. Go, please, to 4 February, 1992.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Under quartermaster service, it says this: "There is no equipment

Page 13493

1 for military conscripts. There are 1.000 sets with items missing.

2 Requests filed, no response. Factories do not have production material.

3 Stocar has no meat, bread," and then next entry under that, veterinary

4 service, "shortage of meat." It looks like there are quite a few

5 shortages going on on February 4, 1992. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, because the market had undergone upsets already.

7 Q. And what is Stocar?

8 A. Stocar was a company in Banja Luka.

9 Q. Was that a company that ordinarily supplied meat but because of

10 the supply disruptions was not able to do so? Is that what that means?

11 A. That was one of the reasons. The other was that the civilian

12 authorities had to ensure necessary supplies for the population. So there

13 were shortages both for the population at large and the army, and we had

14 to solve this problem as best we could, and we did so in different ways.

15 Q. If we go now to 7 February, 1992 --

16 A. I have it written down twice here.

17 Q. 7 February --

18 A. Which page, please?

19 Q. It's a meeting with unit commanders and the base command where a

20 functioning of the military organisation. That's the 7 February I'm

21 looking at.

22 A. Military organisations, yes.

23 Q. If you go down through there, you'll finally -- there will be a

24 number at the top there is numbers 1, 2 and 3, then you go along and

25 you'll finally get to where there is a second number 2, it says, "Military

Page 13494

1 conscripts refusing guard duty."

2 A. One is the first warehouse. Yes.

3 Q. How could it be in a military organisation that a conscript could

4 refuse to carry out an order? What kind of a military organisation is

5 that where they say, "No, we are not going to do that"?

6 A. What this is about is the first ammunitions warehouse in my base

7 in Banja Luka. The commander of the warehouse was Lieutenant Colonel

8 Aljosa Mujagic. And people were afraid.

9 Q. Sir, I really don't want to spend the rest of the day asking you

10 questions. If you'll answer the one I ask you, we can finish; if you

11 won't, we won't finish.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, Colonel Selak said -- Your Honour,

13 I'm sorry, I didn't understand what all that is meant to mean. What is a

14 question like: How could a military organisation -- what kind of a

15 military organisation is that? What is the officer supposed to say to

16 that?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: He's obviously asking for an explanation. How come

18 that in an army, at this particular time in its history, with all the

19 problems that there were, it seems that military conscripts were refusing

20 guard duty.

21 MS. KORNER: But I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't -- what is the

22 actual -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. What is that actual question that

23 Colonel Selak is being asked to answer?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, he's being asked to explain how come this was

25 possible within an organised army.

Page 13495

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if Your Honour thinks that that is a

2 question that can be answered, all right.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood it. He's showing surprise

4 that this could happen at all, but perhaps Colonel Selak has the

5 explanation ready for us.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have an answer. The warehouse

7 is situated on the outskirts of Banja Luka. The citizens had quite a lot

8 of weapons, and there was a lot of shootings, sporadic shooting around the

9 warehouse and in the woods, and people were afraid to do guard duty. It's

10 all human, and we had to work with human beings to explain to them what

11 was going on and to ensure their safety. They are all children,

12 youngsters, of 18 years, 20 years.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Next question, Mr. Ackerman.


15 Q. Go down now to just a little ways, number 3, quartermaster

16 battalion where they say they are -- somebody is powerless to stop

17 conscripts from running away home. See that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you agree with me that it's beginning to look like an army

20 with little or no discipline?

21 A. Yes. That's also true. The battalion was in town. It was a

22 quartermaster battalion with the bakery detachments and kitchens and so

23 on. People fled to town. I called the commander for a talk. You have

24 this later on in the diary. I invited him for an official meeting, and we

25 drew his attention to that, that he had to ensure the control and

Page 13496

1 functioning of the military organisations he was Major Ivica Malic who had

2 to leave the unit later on and he went to Belgrade when he did.

3 Q. Let's go to 26 February, 1992, and just look briefly, if we can, a

4 little more about this morale problem. And try to help me work through

5 this?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If we just start with the first ammunition depot, "Conditions in

8 quarters, morale on the decline, the evenings men running away home, mass

9 absence in the evenings, food quality mediocre, second ammunition depot

10 status much morale exhausted, lack of enthusiasm, quality of food, no

11 cooks. Second ammunition depot section," that's a little ways further

12 along, "a few undisciplined soldiers creating disorder in the whole

13 section. The third fuel depot, grumbling, men tired of guard duty.

14 Fourth spare parts depot, status of morale, too much strain overworked,

15 security and self protection stagnating, firearm shootouts in the

16 neighbourhood. Quartermaster store, 23 men not back from leave,

17 dissatisfaction with pay and grumbling. Quartermaster battalion, status

18 of morale, dissatisfaction, going AWOL into town." And that's enough of

19 that but there seems to be quite a lot of dissatisfaction in discipline,

20 things of that nature, going on at the time. Correct?

21 A. Yes. The economic state was reflected on moral discipline and

22 insecurity that families felt. People were dissatisfied. There was

23 general chaos. That's all true. And this is after the reporting of

24 subordinate commanders to me that I focused on these critical problems for

25 us to take steps to solve them. But yes, it's true that's what the

Page 13497












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13498

1 situation was like.

2 Q. Can we go now to 1 March, 1992?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I think we go for the break instead,

4 Mr. Ackerman. 15 minutes, thank you.

5 In the meantime, just to keep you informed, next witness, in case

6 we opt for, not for the closed session but for voice distortion, whatever,

7 I'm instructing the technicians so that during this break and the next,

8 they will make the necessary technical arrangements for that to be

9 possible should we decide later on to resort to that.

10 MS. KORNER: I'm just not sure whether the next.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Next witness, you had --

12 MS. KORNER: I'm just not sure where the next witness is at the

13 moment, and there has to be testing done.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. They will start preparing the microphones

15 and everything and they will do the testing in the second break. That was

16 the idea.

17 MS. KORNER: Okay.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Colonel, we are making progress here. Let's go to 1 March, 1992.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I was told by the technical people, Your Honour,

25 that I'm doing this a little too fast so I'm going to have to slow down

Page 13499

1 just a tad so everybody could keep up.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I was actually going to ask you to go faster.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 96, 97, I cannot find the 1st of

4 March. I wonder whether the page numbers are correct. No. I don't have

5 the 1st of March in my notebook. Give me just a moment, please. Yes, I

6 got it.


8 Q. The first entry, sir, reads, "At 1400 hours, Lieutenant Darko

9 Savic reported that all roads leading to and from the second ammunition

10 depot section had been blocked." Do you know what that's about?

11 A. Yes. The second ammunition depot section in Donji Vakuf, the

12 commander, Lieutenant Savic, reported that the roads were blocked at 1400

13 hours.

14 Q. Blocked by whom? And why?

15 A. Donji Vakuf is a junction of roads towards Bugojno, Travnik, and

16 Jajce. In the military sense, the authority lay with Colonel Galic; one

17 of his brigades was there. I assume that it was the local communities

18 that carried out the blockade of the roads. However, shortly after that,

19 the problem was resolved and the depot was able to function normally.

20 Q. When you say "local communities," you mean local civilian

21 authorities, blockaded the roads leading to and from the second ammunition

22 depot?

23 A. That is at least my assumption. I didn't note down the details

24 because the problem was quickly resolved.

25 Q. Let me take you, please, to 13 April, 1992. This is another entry

Page 13500

1 dealing with Donji Vakuf.

2 A. Just a moment, please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 132, Colonel.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 15th? I found it. Thank you.


6 Q. Right before an entry that reads, "President of the Bugojno

7 municipal assembly," right before that, there is an entry that starts

8 with, "80 per cent." Let me know when you find that.

9 A. Just a moment. Yes.

10 Q. It says, "80 per cent of Serbs have moved their families out of

11 the area, and about 5 per cent Muslims."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you have any explanation as to why it was such a high

14 percentage of Serb families that left and such a low percentage of Muslim

15 families?

16 A. Here, the President of the Donji Vakuf municipal assembly,

17 Mr. Terzic is reporting on the problems in Donji Vakuf. He provided this

18 piece of information. I personally was surprised, because after that, the

19 bridge in Donji Vakuf was destroyed by the military, which was there on

20 the 1st of May, 1992. They blew up the bridge to prevent communication

21 with Bugojno.

22 Following that, as you will see later, the Serbian Municipality of

23 Donji Vakuf was proclaimed. We discussed it two days ago. So this

24 information is not correct. Ethnic composition of the population in Donji

25 Vakuf, as far as Serbs and Muslims, that is Bosniaks, are concerned, was

Page 13501

1 such that there were only 1 or 2 per cent Muslims more than Serbs, and

2 there was a total of 4 per cent of Croats living in Donji Vakuf.

3 Q. Can you go to 15 April, 1992 now, please?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You'll find an entry that says, "Stamenkovic"?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If you just go up a little ways from there, about oh, five or six

8 lines on this issue of discipline -- well, actually there are three

9 entries under Malic regarding discipline. "Lack of discipline in

10 quartermaster battalion units, going AWOL to go home particularly in the

11 baker's company." And then this entry, "company commanders have to beg

12 their men to carry out tasks." Do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you find it a little bizarre that a company commander has to

15 beg someone to do something rather than order them to do that and expect

16 it to be carried out?

17 A. Yes. You're quite right.

18 Q. Could we go, please, to 16 April? And there is one 16 April entry

19 that says "Jajce," and then after that, there is another one that says

20 "Meeting".

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If you look down through the one that says meeting, you'll come to

23 an underlined section called "chief of patrolling sector." When you find,

24 "Chief of patrolling sector," let me know.

25 A. "Chief of communication -- road sector". Do you see letters RH

Page 13502

1 written just above it? Is that the entry you have in mind?

2 Q. The entry right above it is a paragraph that starts, "The number

3 of people attended a course in Zagreb."

4 A. Just a moment. I haven't found it yet.

5 Q. If you start from the front of that meeting 16 April, you see "a

6 shot was fired from Colonel Galic's escorts," go down further you see,

7 "afraid of the military police." And then right after that, "A number of

8 people attended"?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. "A number of people attended a course in Zagreb." Do you see

11 that?

12 A. I see "from the escort of Colonel Galic a bullet was shot during

13 the meeting," and then it goes down, decision by Crisis Staff.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 A. Yes, yes, yes, I see. A number of people attended a course in

16 Zagreb, yes, I've found it.

17 Q. When the course was interrupted and there was a refusal to sign a

18 pledge of allegiance to the Republic of Croatia, they came home." Now,

19 who were these people that attended that course, do you know?

20 A. The course in question was intended for police officers. It was

21 interrupted and the people who attended it went back home. No other

22 comments, because I didn't know the details.

23 Q. "Police officers from Jajce apparently went to this course in

24 Zagreb and the authorities of the Republic of Croatia demanded that they

25 sign a pledge of allegiance to Croatia."

Page 13503

1 Is that your understanding of what happened?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Go, please, to the entry for 5 May.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And we touched on this very briefly the other day. Diagonally

6 across that page, there is a rather colourful entry that someone else put

7 there and my question to you about it is: What was that all about? Why

8 was that put there? It looks like somebody was frustrated with you not

9 giving them the supplies that they felt like they needed. Do you know

10 anything about that?

11 A. Yes. I know what this is about. To my left was a colonel from a

12 brigade. Weapons were required. This is all about weapons. A request

13 therefore was made for weapons, and I insisted on the appropriate legal

14 procedure to be applied. The mobilisation -- and then once the

15 appropriate conditions were met, I was willing to issue the weapons. And

16 then he wrote down these words in a pencil.

17 Q. So he was expressing his frustration at being required to follow

18 the regulations? Is that basically it?

19 A. Yes. He wanted to speed up the procedure. I didn't have the

20 right -- I mean I did not have an authorisation to issue ammunition and

21 weapons for those units that had not been mobilised, who did not have

22 right to such weapons. The units in question were the units from the left

23 bank of the Sana River, and this Lieutenant Colonel was from one of these

24 units.

25 Q. Would you go to 18 May now, please? And we've discussed this

Page 13504

1 again before.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... day that the JNA became the

4 VRS. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the item A, under 5th Corps commander, reads, "Information

7 from meeting of the Crisis Staff."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in your testimony earlier, you concluded that meant that

10 General Talic had attended that meeting, but it doesn't say anywhere that

11 he attended it, just that he is passing along information from it.

12 Correct?

13 A. What he's talking about here are the tasks following a Crisis

14 Staff meeting. I'm not claiming that he attended the meeting but it is my

15 assumption because the meeting in question, the session in question, was a

16 very important one, and I see no reason why he wouldn't be there.

17 Q. Well, General Talic was in Gradiska at this time, wasn't he? In

18 this period of time?

19 A. Yes. His office was in Gradiska. However, his area of

20 responsibility and his rear command post was in Banja Luka, so he

21 occasionally went to Banja Luka. As far as he's concerned, this was a

22 normal travel, normal form of communication.

23 Q. I think you've answered the question that I really wanted to ask.

24 Thank you. Go to 22 May, please.

25 A. Yes.

Page 13505

1 Q. If you go back from there to the last entry on 21 May, it says,

2 "Talic," and it says that he extends his welcome to Mr. Cyrus [phoen] and

3 his support regardless of ethnic background. Do you know who Mr. Cyrus

4 was?

5 A. Cyrus Shakaline [phoen] was a representative of the International

6 Red Cross on behalf of the UN high commissioner for refugees. I too was

7 present on that meeting.

8 Q. Okay. Go to 29 May, 1992, then, would you, please?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After the reporting section, the last one being E, fourth spare

11 parts depot, there is an entry called "duties for commanders."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who is it that would have been assigning those duties? Who

14 does this come from? Does this come from General Talic?

15 A. No. This was my order. Tasks to the commanders of subordinate

16 units.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Because this was a briefing by my subordinate units, their

19 commanders, that is, and after this briefing, I issued tasks and

20 assignments to those commanders.

21 Q. All right. Would you go now to the 4th of June, then?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If we look at the report of Colonel Tepsic --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That would be at the level of the 1st Krajina Corps command, would

Page 13506

1 it not?

2 A. Yes. He reported at the meeting with General Djukic about rear

3 supplies for the corps units.

4 Q. And what he reports there under paragraph 7, which comes right

5 after 9 and before 4, "material reserves exhausted, no ammunition, spare

6 parts, food."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So it looks like the supply situation is worsening rather than

9 improving?

10 A. Yes. Because in point 9 of his report, he had informed that there

11 were over 100.000 men in the corps. So the problem was how to ensure

12 supplies for them all. That was four regular corps in strength.

13 Q. And it was just virtually impossible to supply them with

14 ammunition and food and things like that because it just wasn't available;

15 fair statement?

16 A. Well, yes, and large consumption, particularly of fuel,

17 ammunition, vehicles were used a lot and so on.

18 Q. Colonel, thank you for letting me take so much of your time. I

19 appreciate your efforts to answer my questions. And that's all I have for

20 you. Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Colonel, there is going

22 to be a short re-examination.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour keeps saying short. I don't think I said

24 short.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It was a suggestion.

Page 13507

1 MS. KORNER: No. It's going to be about an hour. There is quite

2 a lot I have to cover.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's going to take an hour?

4 MS. KORNER: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What about the next witness.

6 MS. KORNER: That's what I'm about to raise with you.

7 Mr. Nicholls has brought to my attention that she's been waiting in the

8 witness room now for an hour, and if I finished at 5.30, I don't know how

9 long Your Honours are going to be in asking questions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well --

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be very few questions. Very few questions.

13 A question of a couple of minutes. That's all.

14 MS. KORNER: In that case, Your Honour, think we might start her

15 then at least.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is this: We will require testing with the

17 witness, 30 minutes I'm informed now, 30 minutes.

18 MS. KORNER: You mean it can't be done outside court with the

19 witness at present?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No. They require the witness sitting where

21 Colonel Selak is sitting and test the equipment, et cetera. So basically

22 we should --

23 MS. KORNER: It would have been nice if somebody told us that

24 before.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I tried to avert previously, but I was

Page 13508

1 told that doing what I suggested meant the technical staff not having a

2 break and therefore, that is perfectly understandable.

3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, may I say, I think when Your

4 Honour hears from the witness, I think Your Honour will accede to closed

5 session rather than --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe, maybe, maybe. Maybe what the situation as it

7 is now, Ms. Korner, is that we will need to break at 5.15 in any case, and

8 that's less than the hour that you require.

9 MS. KORNER: We do need to break at 5.15?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we break at 5.15.

11 MS. KORNER: But we only started at 5 past 4.00, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's an hour and a half any way.

13 MS. KORNER: Anyhow, Your Honour -- all that I'm asking Your

14 Honour is to make a decision. Is this witness going to start this

15 afternoon?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are here at your disposal, Ms. Korner. I mean,

17 there's no question about that. So -- but let's see how long your

18 re-examination is going to take. Then perhaps halfway through or at some

19 point in time, you yourself make a reassessment of the situation, keeping

20 in mind that the technicians require a 30-minute break in any case.

21 MS. KORNER: In that case, Your Honour, it seems to me it's hardly

22 worth it. Because all that would happen if Your Honour -- rather than

23 seeing first whether you're going to grant closed session is going to have

24 the half hour testing with the technicians just in case, and then there's

25 no point, you can't start. In that case, Your Honour, she can't -- Your

Page 13509












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13510

1 Honour, I'm going to have to ask to call Mr. Mayhew first on Monday. He

2 has to leave, finish his evidence.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That's no problem -- that's no problem with us, but

4 you understand, I'm sure you understand that we are dealing with a witness

5 that has given evidence before, on previous occasions. It's true that you

6 have explained to us that there are new circumstances that have come up,

7 that would warrant a closed session, but honestly I mean --

8 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, in that case, it seems to me

9 that the only solution is that if it requires half an hour's testing, that

10 should happen when we finish with Colonel Selak and clearly the witness

11 can't start until Monday.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The reason is that if we are satisfied that with

13 these extra precautions, voice distortion or image distortion, he or she,

14 so that we don't give an indication, would be sufficiently protected in

15 addition to the precautionary protective measures that are already decided

16 upon. We will go that way rather than go into closed session obviously.

17 MS. KORNER: I mean, Your Honour, I don't think it's -- but I can

18 say if Your Honours minded to do that, the Court will be in and out of

19 private session because the nature of the evidence is such that it

20 identifies her. Anyhow, Your Honour, having said that, perhaps I can now

21 continue with Colonel Selak.

22 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:

23 Q. Colonel Selak, I know you've spent a very long time testifying.

24 If you can just answer the questions directly that I ask - if I want more

25 details I'll follow up - I think we get through it and let you go a little

Page 13511

1 bit quicker. I want to deal first of all with the very last thing you

2 were asked about virtually, and that is the attendance of General Talic at

3 Crisis Staff meetings.

4 And you've told us that in relation to the 18th of May, he didn't

5 say directly that he'd just come from it, but from the very context and

6 what he was saying, you took it he had been at the meeting. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You told us earlier that though he personally wouldn't tell you

10 that he had been to a Crisis Staff meeting, it was necessary that other

11 officers were aware of his whereabouts at any given time. I want you to

12 think back quite carefully. Were you told by other officers that General

13 Talic when not at the post wherever he should have been, was attending a

14 Crisis Staff meeting?

15 A. No. I was not told.

16 Q. All right. So how did you know that General Talic attended

17 meetings of the Crisis Staff?

18 A. At the meeting with General Talic, I felt from what he said --

19 Q. I'm going to stop you. Don't worry about the 18th of May. I

20 think you've explained why. But at any other stage, are you saying that

21 you knew or were told that General Talic was attending meetings of the

22 Crisis Staff?

23 A. We discussed amongst ourselves, that is to say the officers, of

24 the corps command, about these meetings. I never asked who attended them,

25 whether Talic or one of his associates.

Page 13512

1 Q. I see. All right. Now, before I move on, there is one matter

2 that I just want -- if I could, Mr. Ackerman, to confirm.

3 MS. KORNER: I understand that the suggestion that was put to the

4 colonel yesterday that, when I asked in fact in terms, that Mr. Brdjanin

5 never wore any kind of uniform, is not in fact the suggestion that

6 Mr. Ackerman intended to make.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm authorised to say this: It was

8 the representation I intended to make but it was my error.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I could notice I was looking at your

10 client at the time.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I was told -- and my client has authorised me to

12 tell you this, I was told by my client that what he said was not true

13 because he didn't even have a uniform. And I concluded from that that

14 meant he never wore one, and that's why I said what I said.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Korner? I think that clears the

16 situation?

17 MS. KORNER: It does. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


20 Q. Now, I want to go back, please, briefly over a couple of matters

21 that you were asked about yesterday. First of all, you were asked about

22 Milan Martic and the fact that it wouldn't be unusual for a TO officer or

23 whatever to be leading troops. I want you to look, please, and this is

24 the last time --

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, to correct it, the question had to do

Page 13513

1 with the fact that he was the head of MUP and that MUP has police troops

2 and that's -- it wasn't the head of TO. It had to do with his police

3 position.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And the colonel had explained to you that he saw

5 nothing strange in it in considering that he was a retired army officer or

6 a reserve --

7 MS. KORNER: No. It was put to him that it would be -- the

8 colonel said it would be logical -- at page 71 of yesterday's transcript.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

10 MS. KORNER: For a professional soldier to stand at the head of an

11 unit. However, if Mr. Martic was a reserve officer, then I see no reason

12 why he shouldn't command an unit.



15 Q. I'd like you -- and this is the last time, Colonel, I'm going to

16 ask you to do this -- to look at your diary -- sorry, your official

17 notebook, for April the 16th.

18 MS. KORNER: Which Your Honours will find in the translation at

19 page 104.

20 Q. It's headed, Colonel, "Jajce."

21 A. Just a moment, please. Yes.

22 Q. And did you record there something about a group hijacking vans,

23 et cetera?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you go on to say, "The group were Martic's men, who went

Page 13514

1 about ill treating people"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that the same Martic that we are talking about? Or that

4 Mr. Ackerman was asking you about, the Milan Martic, the minister in the

5 RSK?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As far as you were aware, and from this report, were his men

8 proper, authorised soldiers? Or police officers serving under a proper

9 military command?

10 A. No. Martic did not have his units in the Jajce area, Kljuc,

11 Jajce, and Mrkonjic. This group of men, according to the report by the

12 depot commander in Jajce arrived in a van, they took the van -- actually,

13 how they came, that doesn't say, but he said they were Martic's men. I

14 didn't ask him where he got this information from, how he knew they were

15 Martic's men.

16 Q. From your own knowledge of that area, was that the only occasion

17 that these so-called "Martic's men" committed criminal offences? Not just

18 in Jajce but in other places.

19 A. When we speak of the concept of Martic's men, in Banja Luka there

20 was information along those lines, and people feared the very name of

21 Martic's men when they heard it, because there were problems in my area of

22 responsibility, which was Donji Vakuf, Jajce, and Mrkonjic, there were not

23 any other cases except for this one but the word "Martic's men" would

24 instill fear in us. It wasn't pleasant for us to hear it mentioned.

25 Q. Now, next I want to deal with one of the documents that you were

Page 13515

1 asked about again yesterday, and this in fact was P229, which is this

2 document prepared or conclusions of a meeting of various municipalities,

3 and I would like you now please -- and it was put to you that you don't

4 know whether this document was actually ever sent to the Serbian Republic

5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the Autonomous Region of Krajina or the 1st

6 Krajina Corps and you said no?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you standing up for any reason, Mr. Ackerman?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm trying to find a book.


10 Q. Could you now please have a look at a document called -- with a

11 number P247? And if we could have -- if it's possible to have the

12 English, just the first page of the English, placed on the ELMO? Yes,

13 thank you.

14 Now, this is a document dated seven days later, the 14th of June.

15 It's headed, instead of Sanski Most, "Intermunicipal agreement Sanska

16 Unska area," but it's the same group of municipalities, it appears, Krupa,

17 Petrovac, Novi, Dubica, Prijedor, and Sanski Most. And could you look at

18 the last page, Colonel? Is that again the same stamp that we looked at

19 last time but a rather fuller version?

20 A. Just a moment, please.

21 MS. KORNER: Usher, could you give me the -- and I'll find it for

22 the colonel. Yes.

23 A. Yes. This is the same stamp.


25 Q. Which is I think you told us the SDS party Sanski Most; is that

Page 13516

1 correct?

2 A. Yes. That's what I said.

3 Q. All right. Now, if you just go to the first page --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Paragraph 1, does that say, "With regard to the previous meeting

6 of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, we can note that

7 most of our proposals have been adopted and have been incorporated into

8 the official positions of the Crisis Staff taken at its 8th June, 1992

9 session."

10 Now, we haven't got the record of that session, but we do have a

11 radio announcement in relation to it. Could you look now, please, at

12 Exhibit P233? And to remind ourselves that the 9th of June -- sorry, the

13 7th of June document from this group had asked for a purging of Muslims

14 and Croats from the Krajina Corps.

15 This is Banja Luka Radio, the 9th of June, which states this:

16 "The Crisis Staff of the Krajina autonomous region has issued an

17 announcement in which the following is stated: Urgent differentiation

18 along national lines is required within the officer corps of the army of

19 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina." And then it goes on to

20 deal with centres of security services.

21 Now, Colonel, you were asked this yesterday about the earlier

22 document. Have you any reason to believe that either of these two

23 documents, that is of the 7th of June or the 14th of June, are forgeries?

24 A. No. These are authentic documents. I believe in them completely.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's all I want to ask you about that topic

Page 13517

1 that you were asked about yesterday.

2 Now, finally on yesterday's cross-examination, it was suggested to

3 you, in no uncertain terms, that you were acting as a spy when you passed

4 information to the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in respect of what

5 you learned of troop movements and the like. Whom did you regard as the

6 legitimate government within Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 A. The legitimate government in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- there was a

8 referendum and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was officially

9 proclaimed. It was recognised by the United Nations. And that was what I

10 considered to be the legitimate government.

11 Q. I'm not asking you for a legal opinion in any way, Colonel, but

12 did you regard the so-called Serbian Republic of -- in Bosnia-Herzegovina

13 as a legitimate government?

14 A. No, I did not consider it to be a legitimate government because it

15 was proclaimed only by one nation, one ethnic group, whereas

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina is a multi-ethnic state with three nationalities,

17 Serbs, Bosniaks, and Muslims. And this was proclaimed by the Assembly of

18 the Serbian People and for me, it was not legitimate, unlawful.

19 Q. I want now, then, please, to go back to questions you were asked

20 during the first day you were cross-examined, I think the Tuesday of this

21 week. And I want to deal with three different matters, please.

22 First of all, you said to Mr. Ackerman, when he was asking you --

23 I will just find the page. Yes. He was asking you in respect of arming,

24 and I'm going to come back to the two major documents but you said this:

25 "In the Tribunal, there is a document from the commander of the 6th TO

Page 13518

1 Brigade, Colonel Basara, October 1991." And then you explained you had an

2 a copy of the document in which he explains emphatically and clearly how

3 he armed the Serb people in Bosnian Krajina, Kljuc, and Sanski Most.

4 That's at page 13.228 of the transcript. I'd like you to have a

5 look now please at Exhibit P745. First, Colonel, is that the document you

6 were thinking about? It may help if you look, please, under paragraph 4

7 of this document.

8 A. Give me a moment, please. I haven't found it yet. One, two,

9 three. I can't see number 4. Could you help me and read the text out?

10 Q. Yes, it begins, "In the course of March, 1991, clashes between the

11 nationalities intensified." I think you'll find it on page -- with the

12 stamp number 00478674. Which begins with the word "Krajs" [phoen]?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if you go down that paragraph, and if the usher would be kind

15 enough to put the English on to the ELMO so that everybody can see what we

16 are looking at, do you see there, "We had to resort to a trick to make it

17 possible for us to arm the Serbs publicly and legally"? And before

18 that -- all right. Colonel, don't worry about that. Is this the --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All I want to know is: Did you know Colonel Basara?

21 A. Yes, I did, during the war, but I didn't know him before the war.

22 Q. All right. Would you be able to recognise his writing? Did you

23 ever see his writing?

24 A. No. I wouldn't be able to recognise his handwriting but I can see

25 that this document speaks about what I quoted and what I noted down in my

Page 13519

1 notebook. I quoted the document. I had it in my hands and I made a note

2 of it and I'm reading from it, "We worked in two directions, the first to

3 organise and arm the Serb people and the second to negotiate, persuading

4 the Muslims and Croats to remain loyal." So that is the document.

5 "In order to be able to arm the Serbs publicly, we had to resort

6 to a trick to make it possible for us to arm the Serbs publicly and

7 legally. The story was devised that the commander of the 1st Krajina

8 Corps ordered" -- that's the document, but I don't know the handwriting.

9 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel. That's all I ask from that

10 document. You can put that away.

11 Now, I want to deal with two allied topics. First of all, this

12 question of those documents showing arms supplied by the 1st Krajina

13 Corps. Could you have back, please, document 1572? Now, a lot of time

14 was spent on this document, both when I asked you questions and when

15 Mr. Ackerman did, but the situation as I understand your evidence now is

16 that this relates to arms supplied to various TO staffs and units from

17 1991 onwards. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct. And that was from the 5th Corps.

19 Q. And these arms could have been properly issued if these particular

20 TO units had been actually mobilised?

21 A. Yes. And in that case, the regular path would have been through

22 the logistics base and not via the corps.

23 Q. All right. It appears from the other documents you were shown by

24 Mr. Ackerman, which showed a supply of arms to Kotor Varos that this may

25 be an incomplete list. Is that correct?

Page 13520

1 A. Yes. Not everything is included here. I received an order to

2 issue even machine-guns to the MUP units, the police units, so even a

3 larger amount and a larger assortment of weapons and other equipment,

4 everything that the units needed on the basis of their requests.

5 Q. Now, in order for them to be mobilised, as you and Mr. Ackerman --

6 or as you told Mr. Ackerman this morning, there had to be an order for

7 mobilisation issued. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. There had been an order issued in September of 1991, in respect of

10 the conflict in Croatia. Is that also correct?

11 A. Yes. When I too mobilised my logistics base.

12 Q. Now, there are no dates on this so we don't know when these arms

13 were issued. But can I just ask you this: Omarska, which is -- it's the

14 tenth, I think, or ninth TO on this list, did that fall -- did that TO

15 unit fall within any other area unit?

16 A. The Prijedor unit.

17 Q. All right. But it was issued separately with arms because we can

18 see, I think, that Prijedor -- don't think -- a correction on this --

19 appears on this list?

20 A. I don't understand your question.

21 Q. Does Prijedor appear on this list?

22 A. Prijedor? I don't see it here.

23 Q. All right. So -- and can you just tell us this: Was Omarska a

24 Serb ethnicity village or Muslim or mixed?

25 A. I don't know. I'm not sure. I mean I'm sure it was mixed, but I

Page 13521












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Page 13522

1 don't know what the percentage was.

2 Q. All right. Now I want you to have again, please, the other

3 document that you were asked about in respect of this, and that's 1573.

4 Now, this is the one you were asked a lot of questions about, whether it

5 was authorised or ordered or whatever. But the date is the 14th of March,

6 1992, and you've already told us that this particular village, Karanovac,

7 was Serb.

8 A. Yes. Located five kilometres from Banja Luka, to the west, as you

9 get out of the --

10 Q. Yes. Don't worry about where it is.

11 A. Vrbas canyon.

12 Q. We do know the date of this. 14th of March, 1992. On the 14th of

13 March, 1992, had any order for mobilisation been issued?

14 A. I don't remember that. That is, when it was issued in respect of

15 individual units. I don't remember the date that there had been a

16 mobilisation. I'm not sure.

17 Q. All right. If there had not been, if evidence shows that there

18 had been no mobilisation call, would there have been any reason for this

19 village to have had this selection of weapons sent to it?

20 A. Yes. In my assessment, these weapons were issued to a 30 troop

21 strong battalion for the purposes of controlling access roads to Banja

22 Luka from the direction of Jajce and Mrkonjic Grad which were the only

23 routes from the direction of Jajce along the Vrbas canyon towards Banja

24 Luka. That is the only road that vehicles could take. It is a canyon

25 that can be easily controlled with a battalion.

Page 13523

1 Q. But is that a -- that's -- you deduced that but was that is a

2 legitimate reason for these -- for this village being given the weapons?

3 A. No. This does not seem to be logical to me because the small unit

4 should have been part of a larger TO staff, a larger TO unit, such as a

5 company or a battalion. To arm a small group of people, such as platoon,

6 from the military point of view, doesn't seem logical.

7 Q. Well, was it the job, was it lawful, if you like, for a TO unit

8 to, as you put it, control all the roads? Or was that a police job?

9 A. No. This is in the spirit of the law, because normally, the

10 civilian police is in charge of controlling the traffic, and the military

11 police as well if necessary, in the area of combat operations, if there

12 are no combat operations, then it is the job of the civilian police.

13 Q. Were there any combat operations going on on the 14th of March,

14 around the area where this village was?

15 A. No. Not even throughout the war, there were no combat operations

16 in this area.

17 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Colonel. You can put that

18 document away now.

19 Now, you were asked this morning to look at the records of the TO

20 units in Kozarac and to look at the weapons. I want you to have again,

21 please, the document you looked at earlier, P1416.

22 Now, you looked at it when I was asking you questions about the

23 attack on Kozarac but this is for a different point. The motorised

24 brigade that you described was supported by two 105-millimetre howitzer

25 batteries and a tank squadron. Did any of the weapons that you looked at

Page 13524

1 on the lists this morning compare with the type of weaponry that the VRS

2 had?

3 A. I apologise for having smiled. The weapons that the so-called

4 conditionally speaking Green Berets had and the weapons that this

5 Motorised Brigade had, I mean, it's just toys compared to this.

6 Q. What sort of weaponry would the VRS have had?

7 A. The VRS had the most modern weapons, from the JNA, even a surplus

8 of weapons that had been pulled out from Slovenia and Croatia and which

9 were kept in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the JNA units,

10 initially, later in the units of the VRS. As for automatic rifles --

11 correction, they had automatic rifles, all kinds of weapons, including

12 M-84 tanks, MIG 21 and 25 aircraft, with complete logistical support.

13 Q. Apart --

14 A. And the assistance of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm just wondering if the Prosecutor is now

17 conceding that this document reflects an accurate account of what happened

18 at Kozarac or -- in other words, does she accept paragraph 4 as well as

19 paragraph 2?

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's quite clear, that isn't even a

21 question that deserves an answer. Your Honour, I'm asking the difference

22 between what is put down here as what was engaged in the attack in

23 Kozarac, I'm certainly not accepting, and Mr. Ackerman knows it, that to

24 describe the total strength of the Green Berets as 1.500 to 2.000 men

25 isn't in any way accurate and we've been through that. I'm merely

Page 13525

1 comparing the relative strength of what's down here. But if Mr. Ackerman

2 wants to suggest that they also lied about what they used I'm quite happy

3 to take that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the explanation forthcoming from Ms. Korner

5 is a fair one, Mr. Ackerman. We can proceed.


7 Q. To your knowledge, apart from the tanks and the weaponry, did the

8 Motorised Brigade also have armoured personnel carriers?

9 A. Yes, of course it had. In terms of formations, it is normal for a

10 Motorised Brigade to have armoured personnel carriers.

11 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour said you wanted to have a break at 5.15.

13 Perhaps I can just deal with one allied topic first.

14 Q. You were asked -- you were shown the -- the CSB version of what

15 happened in Prijedor and Kozarac around this period of time, and you were

16 asked whether you accepted that there was an attack on Prijedor, as was

17 put in this report, launched by Muslims and Croatian extremists, 200 well

18 armed and organised men launched an all-out attack on vital facilities and

19 institutions. And you said you did not accept there was an attack on

20 Prijedor. Now, I want you to have a look at another document on this,

21 please. Could you look, please, at first of all, P937?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: While they are looking for the document, how much

23 longer do you expect your re-examination to last?

24 MS. KORNER: About another 20 minutes or so.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Another 20 minutes?

Page 13526

1 MS. KORNER: I have quite a lengthy section to go through.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have the break. I think it's safer to have

3 the break because we can run into the same problem we did last time when

4 Mr. Trbojevic said he would only take 20 minutes.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I was expecting to have a break.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have the break but let's give the witness the

7 document that -- the exhibit that you want to question him about.

8 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it can wait until after the break,

9 then.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will do that after the break. Thank

12 you. 15 minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 5.33 p.m.


16 Q. Now, Colonel, this is a report -- one of the first KK reports,

17 dated the 30th of May, and it deals under situation on the ground, with a

18 description of what happened in Prijedor on the 29th, 30th of May. It

19 says, "In the morning at about 0400 a group of Muslims extremists

20 neutralised a position at the Sana River bridge, killing two sentries,

21 overpowered the hotel Prijedor security guards." That's paragraph 3.

22 "And using a Molotov cocktail, set fire to the hotel where the military

23 police was accommodated." And then, "sniper fire in the vicinity of the

24 hotel." And then, "eight extremists from the area of Donji Puharska

25 opened fire on targets in the barracks. Heavy fighting is taking place in

Page 13527

1 the town of Prijedor. The assault was carried out by a group of about 80

2 Muslim extremists."

3 If you look, please, at the combat report for the next day, or the

4 day after, that's Exhibit P655, that shows, under, "Situation in the

5 units," "the 1st Krajina Corps in the areas of Prijedor, Kljuc, Sanski

6 Most, et cetera, are in control of the situation and are continuing the

7 mopping up." And so on and so forth. Now, do you remember that incident,

8 when approximately 80 people, 80 Muslims, extremists or not, did try and

9 seize part of Prijedor?

10 A. I really cannot remember this. I think that it would have been a

11 suicide to attack the town of Prijedor, where a very powerful brigade,

12 with almost 6.000 troops, was located. It is possible that there were

13 individual actions, but that there was -- that there would have been an

14 organised attack on the town, no, that would have been a suicide, as I

15 said. I am not aware of this attack. I believe I already indicated that.

16 Q. All right. Thank you, Colonel. Then I needn't trouble you

17 further on that matter. Then the final top take I want to cover with you

18 is this question of cooperation, military, political, and the exact

19 meaning of orders. Now, Mr. Ackerman asked you a number of questions, and

20 ended by showing you this document from Bosanska Krupa, which purports to

21 give actual military orders to the units that were stationed there.

22 Now, I want you to look, please, at a series of documents from

23 different municipalities, at the end ask you to really sum up for us the

24 nature of this type of cooperation.

25 Can we start, please, by you having for a moment the gazettes, the

Page 13528

1 Official Gazette of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, P227? And could you

2 go, please, to number 9?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which is the 13th of May meeting. Paragraph 7, "The persons

5 authorised to resolve all military and political --"

6 A. Just a moment, please. I have the 14th of May on page 9.

7 Q. I'm sorry, can I -- it's -- you need to go to the 9th, as it were,

8 meeting. It's the one of the 13th of May, and you'll find it on page --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you found that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. "The persons authorised to resolve all military and

13 political issues in the Autonomous Region of Krajina are Vojo

14 Kupresanin" --

15 A. No, no. Just a moment, please.

16 Q. All right. Can you give me --

17 MS. KORNER: Usher, just give me them?

18 A. Yes, I've got it. Item 7.


20 Q. Yes. And you see that, "The persons authorised to resolve all

21 military and political issues in the autonomous region are Kupresanin and

22 Radic." Now, can you go, please, to the meeting 11, which is the 15th of

23 May?

24 A. Yes, the 15th of May, conclusions.

25 Q. 5: "Talks should be held with General Talic about calling up and

Page 13529

1 assigning military conscripts on the 20th and 21st of May, 1992." Do you

2 see that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. We've looked already at the 18th of May in respect of Kozmos and

5 finally on these gazettes could you go to number 15, which is the 22nd of

6 May meeting? Have you found that?

7 A. The 15th? Yes. Just a moment, please.

8 Q. You'll find -- I think you'll find that on --

9 A. Something's wrong.

10 Q. You'll find that on the page that's got the ERN number 00497848.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Paragraph 4, conclusion 4, "In view of the presents poor

13 coordination between the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

14 and the newly established army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina, mandatory attendance of General Talic or a person designated

16 by him is requested at the meetings of the Crisis Staff."

17 5, "The Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina hereby

18 demands that the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina and its ministry of the army urgently secure a passage, a

20 corridor, to Semberija and Serbia in order to facilitate a flow of goods

21 and people."

22 Now, Colonel, do these sections represent the sort of cooperation

23 and, if you put it that way, requests that were going on at the level of

24 the ARK Regional Crisis Staff and the corps command?

25 A. Yes. Here, it is the coordination in terms of tasks between the

Page 13530

1 military and the civilian authorities.

2 Q. All right. Now, I want you to look, please, at some documents

3 from various municipalities, and then ask you at the end the question.

4 First, could you be given Exhibit P902?

5 MS. KORNER: This comes from the Kljuc municipality, Your Honours.

6 Q. A letter from General Talic to the Kljuc Municipal Assembly, and

7 also to the autonomous region assembly, 8th of May. "Dear sir," it reads,

8 "you are well aware of the efforts we are investing together with you and

9 the municipal leaderships in preserving the peace in Krajina. We would

10 have failed in these efforts had it not been for the high level of

11 cooperation between the military and civilian authorities which we have no

12 doubt shall continue."

13 And then, it goes on to say, "We are dissatisfied with the

14 cooperation provided by the municipal organs in Kljuc." And then it goes

15 on to describe Chetnik units, "units being encouraged to dessert under the

16 pretext they are going to defend Kljuc. Two Muslims killed for unknown

17 reasons and the president of the municipal assembly is attempting to

18 exercise command over the JNA units in the area." And it goes on to ask

19 for the intercession of various people.

20 Next, please, could you look at again, it's P208. Dealing with

21 this in order.

22 This is Sanski Most Crisis Staff meeting, 27th of May, 1992 -- I'm

23 sorry, Kljuc, sorry, again. Item number 10. "The relationship of the

24 military authorities to the civilian authorities should be such that the

25 military will execute the orders of the civilian authorities while the

Page 13531

1 civilian authorities will not interfere with the way these orders are

2 carried out." And I'll come back to that at the end.

3 Next could you be shown, please -- now this is a document that

4 doesn't have an exhibit number yet, it's disclosure number is 3.202, and

5 we have copies available for Their Honours, the Registry, and the Defence.

6 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, may that then be marked P1607

7 [Realtime transcript read in error "P1067"]?

8 Q. Now, this comes from Kotor Varos, 24th of June, 1992, Crisis Staff

9 meeting. Item number 3: "After a discussion of the work of the security

10 station, it was concluded that the Crisis Staff has no right to interfere

11 in the professional work of the police and army, and that no one wishes or

12 requires it to take upon itself security --"

13 A. I apologise, but I do not have that document. This is from the

14 36th session.

15 Q. Yes, that's right. Yes. Can you look at item 3?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does it start, "Inspector Pejic"?

18 A. Yes, I do apologise.

19 Q. Okay. On this date, the 24th of June, the Crisis Staff is saying

20 that it shouldn't interfere in the professional work of the army.

21 Next, please, I'd like you to have a look at another document from

22 Kotor Varos, and that's 3.223, which will become Exhibit 1608. And I'll

23 hand those out as well.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 65, line 21, is should be, I think, 1607, not

Page 13532

1 1067.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Mr. Ackerman.

3 MS. KORNER: Quite possible I said that, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you didn't. No, you definitely said 1607.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: And the other thing is at 66, line 9, Ms. Korner

6 says that this document says that the Crisis Staff is saying that it

7 shouldn't interfere in the professional work of the army and that's --

8 that is a misquote, because what it says is that it is --

9 MS. KORNER: I read out the exact quote.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: That it has no right to interfere, not that it

11 shouldn't but that it has no right to interfere.

12 MS. KORNER: I read out the exact quote earlier on.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's correct and I have the impression that

14 she did read out has no right, in fact, because I remember it vividly.

15 Okay. But in any case, thank you, Mr. Ackerman, for pointing that out,

16 and you, Ms. Korner, for confirming it.

17 MS. KORNER: Could the witness look at the next one which is the

18 14th of July, Kotor Varos again?

19 Q. Item 1, "Mane Tepic and Savo Tepic briefly expanded Presidency

20 members on combat operations. Based on this information, the War

21 Presidency concluded it was not satisfied with the results achieved so far

22 and the current military and security situation. It was further concluded

23 that General Talic and Stojan Zupljanin chief of the CSB have to be

24 contacted urgently in order to inform them of our satisfaction of

25 development so far and task them with creating conditions needed to

Page 13533












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13534

1 accelerate late the operation."

2 All right. Next please, I'm sorry, there are only another three

3 documents. Could you be handed Exhibit 7 -- P710?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: This last document, was it given an exhibit number,

5 3223.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: 1608, Mr. Ackerman.


8 Q. Now, this is the Sanski Most municipal assembly on the 27th of

9 July, because then it had gone back to an assembly. Can you turn, please,

10 Colonel, to item number 4?

11 A. 27th of July, yes.

12 Q. 27th of July, I hope.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Item number 4, when the chairman opened the debate on the

15 political and security situation. Do you find that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then this is rather difficult but can you -- if you move down

18 the paragraph, just before a man called Boro Savanovic speaks, you should

19 find a sentence reading as follows: "The command of the 6th Krajina

20 Brigade should be relocated to Sanski Most and the chairman of the

21 executive committee should put this forward at a meeting of the government

22 of the autonomous - it reads republic, but it must be - region of

23 Krajina. So there they were saying this is what they wanted to happen and

24 they would put it forward.

25 Now, could you look, please, at document P746? Which is a

Page 13535

1 description generally of the work of the 6th Krajina Brigade.

2 If you turn, please, Colonel, in that -- I'm afraid this is rather

3 difficult. It's a paragraph, a short paragraph, that begins, "On the 28th

4 of August."

5 MS. KORNER: It's at our page 9, Your Honours, and it's just above

6 a list of brigade commanding officers.

7 A. I haven't found that yet.

8 Q. You will find that, I think --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, page 9.

10 MS. KORNER: But that's the English.


12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.


14 Q. On the 28th of August, 1992, the command of the brigade with

15 headquarters support units relocated from Lusci Palanka to Sanski Most.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Which is about -- almost exactly a month after that last request.

18 Now, finally on this topic could you be shown P733 and P735.

19 A. Basara.

20 Q. 733, please, first of all. Sanski Most again, November, 1992 now.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Item 2, "Arrange a visit to the 1st Krajina Corps command, inform

23 the corps commander of the situation in the municipality. The issue of

24 reducing the number of battalions in the 6th Krajina Brigade to four.

25 Respect of the army command for work obligation. The issue of course is

Page 13536

1 for military officers," and so on and then the delegation. And then item

2 number 4, "The 6th Krajina Brigade command is asked to analyse its work

3 and make personnel changes."

4 Thank you. That's all I want on that document. And the final

5 document I want now, I assure you, Colonel, is Exhibit P735. 17th of

6 November, 1992, Sanski Most again. "The command of the 6th Krajina

7 Brigade and the public security station are requested to submit a report

8 on who participated in the organisation of the armed attack on Trnovo and

9 Sehovci and what was the goal of an attack on such a scale? The

10 perpetrators of this horrible crime must be urgently found and the most

11 severe measures provided by the law taken against them. The 6th Krajina

12 Brigade and the public security station are hereby requested to provide

13 security for all citizens of Sanski Most municipality and their property."

14 All right. Colonel, that's it. Thank you. I'm sorry to have

15 taken so long with the documents.

16 Now, Mr. Ackerman, in a rather dramatic way, suggested that the

17 way that Krupa attempted to give orders to the military was laughable. I

18 think he said, "When they stopped laughing." Having looked at all these

19 documents and from your own knowledge, although the civilian, political

20 authorities could not give orders in the military sense to the military,

21 order them to do things, could they, as we've seen, have an influence on

22 what the military actually did by making these requests, and in some case

23 dressing them up as orders?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object for a couple of reasons.

25 First of all, he's already answered that question twice at least in the

Page 13537

1 course of his testimony. He has said that a civilian authority could at

2 any time could make requests of the military and the military could decide

3 what they wanted to do about that request. Either passing it up the chain

4 of command or within the authority of the local commander, go ahead and

5 carry it out if he thought it was appropriate. That's in the record.

6 It's been put in at least twice. I asked both of us asked him about it.

7 Second of all, it seems to me it's rather unfair to go through

8 this whole list of documents and not ask him a question along this line

9 about the document while he's looking at it, and ask him to try to give

10 some kind of a summary answer after having looked at all of them.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You did exactly the same thing yesterday for almost

12 an hour, Mr. Ackerman. And I'm allowing the question for a very simple

13 reason: That in the course of your cross-examination, you showed the

14 witness other documents purporting to prove exactly the opposite of what

15 is being suggested now by Ms. Korner.

16 So particularly -- particularly with reference to Krupa, which is

17 specifically being referred to by Ms. Korner in the beginning of her

18 question. And that arises precisely from your cross-examination.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, there may be a misunderstanding because that

20 was a document where a civilian leader actually issued a document that was

21 called an order, purporting to order the military to do something. All

22 these document that is Ms. Korner has been going through this afternoon

23 all say requesting the military to do things and the that the military

24 should do certain things.

25 MS. KORNER: That's not actually right.

Page 13538

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Your objection is not being sustained,

2 Mr. Ackerman.

3 And Ms. Korner,


5 Q. Colonel, all I want to know is: Looking at these documents and

6 from your own knowledge is it as simple a concept as Mr. Ackerman would

7 have it, that the military only carry out its own orders without

8 effectively any input into those orders from the political?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That is absolutely not my position. I went through

10 the whole thing that the military is under the control of the civilian

11 Commander-in-Chief, and of course they do everything under their control.

12 And I never said what she suggested.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right. In a way you didn't say,

14 because what you suggested in the course of your cross-examination was as

15 follows: That the military authorities took orders from the higher

16 echelons of the military organisation itself, except in as far as the

17 President of the republic with specific reference to Mr. Karadzic at the

18 time that you mentioned, and previously the relative political -- the

19 highest level.

20 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: As the chief of -- Commander-in-Chief, as the

22 Commander-in-Chief, that was your suggestion. But the witness did also,

23 as a result of several questions that you put to him, and some documents

24 that you should to him, tend to suggest that there were instances where

25 the military would not be subjected to any kind of interference or

Page 13539

1 influence on the part of the civilian authorities. And what Ms. Korner is

2 precisely asking of the witness is to clarify this position on the basis

3 of the documents that she has shown him now. This is why I'm telling you

4 that her question is perfectly in order and I'm allowing it. Perhaps you

5 may prefer to rephrase it.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the suggestion as I understand it from

7 Mr. Ackerman was that effectively the only political authority that could

8 have any control or influence over what the army did was the

9 Commander-in-Chief, the very top level.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: That's absolutely not the case. My question had to

11 do with chain of command.


13 MR. ACKERMAN: Superior-subordinate relationships. The

14 superior-subordinate relations go through the army chain of command from

15 the Commander-in-Chief now. No intervening civilian authority has a

16 superior relationship over any army unit. Those are exactly the questions

17 I asked and exactly the answers I got.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not suggesting for one movement, and

19 that's not what my question about. But the impression was clearly left by

20 Mr. Ackerman that effectively it was laughable for any municipality

21 president or authority or regional to attempt to, as it were, get the army

22 to do things. I am merely asking Colonel Selak if that is correct.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: No. That is not what I said. I said it was

24 laughable for somebody to order the army to do something. Not to try to

25 get them to do it. He said, and I have said all along, that the army can

Page 13540

1 request all they want to. I mean, the civilians can request all they want

2 to and then the army decides what they are going to do about it, but this

3 document was an order. He was purporting to order the army to do

4 something. And the witness correctly said to me, no he can't do that. He

5 can't order the army to do something. That's the issue. That's all.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's correct with regard to that Krupa incident.

7 But as regards the rest, the question that Ms. Korner has put is perfectly

8 legitimate and it is arising out of the cross-examination. So I am

9 allowing the question.

10 And, Colonel, please -- I would suggest that you repeat the

11 question because now.

12 MS. KORNER: I can't remember what it is either.

13 Q. Colonel, having looked at all these documents and from your own

14 knowledge, the relationship below the republic Commander-in-Chief, a

15 simple -- that the municipality and the regional level couldn't issue

16 orders, and that was the end of that, or was this a more complex

17 relationship?

18 A. The relationship was a little more complex. To order the use of

19 units by the municipal authorities is something that could not have taken

20 place. However, in certain cases, and in some of the previous documents,

21 where investigations were called for with respect to certain sabotage

22 activity or the killing of certain persons, et cetera, the army had to be

23 involved, and engaged, because it was assumed that some of the

24 perpetrators may have been army members. So they had this common goal,

25 and the municipal authorities and the units located in the area had to

Page 13541

1 cooperate in matters of this kind. So let me repeat.

2 The head of the municipality could not issue orders to the brigade

3 commander to have the brigade deployed. However, in the area of

4 responsibility where there were common problems, they had to discuss

5 things and reach agreements as to what was to be done. Have I been clear

6 enough?

7 Q. Well, I was going to ask you finally, Colonel, and this is the

8 last question: Does the part that I read from the document -- yes, the --

9 it was Exhibit P208, from Kljuc, where they say, "The relationship of the

10 military authorities to the civilian authorities should be such that the

11 military will execute the orders of the civilian authorities while the

12 civilian authorities will not interfere with the way those orders are

13 carried out."

14 Does that seem an accurate summary of the relationship?

15 A. Authorisation has been overstepped by the President of the Crisis

16 Staff. He has overstepped his authority to command, issue commands and

17 orders to the army.

18 Q. Right. But if the situation is this: The political authorities

19 say, "This from a political point of view is what needs doing, we, the

20 political authorities tell the army this is what needs doing but you do it

21 in the way you think proper." Is that a fair summary of what would

22 happen?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the document is being misquoted again

24 by Ms. Korner. The document says, and she quoted it right above, from

25 Kljuc, says, "The relationship of the military authorities to the civilian

Page 13542

1 authorities should be such that the military will do this." Not that it

2 is. This is a wish, and the wish was never granted.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken. But I don't think she is misquoting.

4 MS. KORNER: I quoted exactly.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: She did read out the text verbatim and I don't think

6 the colonel did not understand the question. I'm not quite sure whether

7 he is directing his answer bull's eye where it should be, but put the

8 question again.

9 MS. KORNER: I think and certainly I think the colonel and

10 everybody else in this Court is quite tired on a Friday afternoon let me

11 just try one more time a simple question.

12 Q. Yesterday, or the day before, when Mr. Ackerman and earlier, when

13 you were testifying, you explained that it was the political who set the

14 goals. They were then carried out by the military. Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The actual orders to the military could only come from the

17 political Commander-in-Chief, if you like, that is, as you pointed out,

18 Mr. Karadzic, and the actual order to carry out an attack or deploy or

19 whatever could only come within the military chain of command?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But at the regional level or at the municipal level, in this

22 cooperation that was going on, if the regional level said, "This is an

23 objective that needs to be achieved," as we looked at now, or at the

24 municipal level, and you the army should carry this out because it's

25 within your sphere of competence, is that something that would carry

Page 13543

1 weight, even if, as you say, they couldn't give an order?

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this has been asked and answered about

3 ten times now, I think.

4 MS. KORNER: I'm just finishing off, thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Korner, and please bring it to an end.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The unit commander, if he had the

7 authority and duty to carry something out, he would have done so. Now, if

8 this went against his authorisations and competence and assignments, he

9 would not carry it out. However, he would have to inform his superior of

10 the problem that had arisen between the civilian organs of power and

11 authority and his own particular unit, and likewise, the civilian

12 authority would have to follow its own hierarchy and chain to solve the

13 problem. However, there were very few such problems in actual fact.

14 Q. And that was why?

15 A. Because the goal was the same: The creation of a state called

16 Republika Srpska. And the goal uses all the means it can.

17 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you very much, Colonel Selak. That

18 really is all I ask.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I had one re-cross question with

21 regard to Exhibit P227.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And the question is what?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it was the contention of the

24 Prosecutor, or suggested by the Prosecutor, that General Talic had

25 attended the Crisis Staff meeting of the 18th of May. And document P227,

Page 13544

1 I just would like to ask the witness if it's not a bit strange that four

2 days later they would be demanding his presence at the Crisis Staff

3 contending that he had never attends, if he'd been there four days before.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's not even a proper question on any

5 showing and it's one that could have been asked a lot earlier.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Could have been asked and I think the position has

7 been made quite clear by the witness. I mean why he concluded -- he

8 reached the conclusion that he reached. I don't think it's going to

9 change anything basically.

10 Yes, Judge Janu. I believe you have some questions. Go ahead.

11 Colonel, we have some questions from the bench

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE JANU: Colonel Selak, I have two simple questions for you.

14 I would like to go back to your statement, first one, from the year

15 1995-96, and you stated there that the top three reasons for the war in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina were, first, Serb nationalism; second, the propaganda

17 of Orthodox Church; and the third one, propaganda of Serbian academy of

18 art and science.

19 My question is: I would like limited myself to the second and

20 third point, because on the first one, we already have heard quite a lot

21 of -- we have quite a lot of evidence. So I'm interested in the

22 propaganda of the Orthodox Church and propaganda of Serbian academy of

23 science. My question is: Who was involved in this propaganda, concerning

24 the Orthodox Church. Was it just individuals from the structure of the

25 church or was it the top leadership, top clergy? And if you can provide

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Page 13546

1 us with some names, I would be happy about that. And in the Serbian

2 academy of science, the same, if it was the top or just individuals in the

3 structure, and if you know some names, please give it to us. That's the

4 first question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Colonel. And please try to be as concise as

6 possible.

7 A. The media reported on this, in Serbia, for instance, that the

8 objective of creating a Greater Serbia, a meeting was held at the Belgrade

9 patriarchy, attended by the federal secretariat for National Defence,

10 General Adzic, patriarch German. I don't know who represented the academy

11 of science. It was mentioned in the conclusions that, with the purpose of

12 creating a Greater Serbia, we are prepared to sacrifice as many as 70.000

13 lives. There is a document to that effect in Serbia. Therefore, the

14 Orthodox Church was also in favour of Greater Serbia. And the history has

15 taught us that as early as during the Balkan wars, this was the case. I

16 don't know whether I've been clear enough.

17 JUDGE JANU: Yes, thank you. And my second question is going back

18 to the meeting from your official notebook, and you don't need the

19 document. It was the meeting with the directors of Rudi Cajavec and

20 Kozmos, and there were present directors and there were also present two

21 generals, General Dukic and General Nikitovic, and I don't know, Major

22 Tepsic and others. And the discussion was going on and concerning the --

23 for example, production of ammunition. There was a problem of the defined

24 status of military industry firm. I think this meeting was in connection

25 how to convert these companies to the military sphere, for ammunition, and

Page 13547

1 there were of course because the war wasn't declared there were some

2 problems. I understood this document this way. And there was also

3 present Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Radic, president of the municipality.

4 And Mr. Brdjanin in this connection, when, among all these

5 technical problems of conversion, for example to invite the experts from

6 Federal Republic of Serbia, to help with this, Mr. Brdjanin stated, "the

7 production must begin as soon as possible." And the statement of

8 President Radic was something like, something similar. He said, "If we go

9 to the government, it will be too slow, so it must be organised on the

10 municipal level and there shouldn't be any delays because of the

11 administration."

12 My question is: Could a person without power and authority make

13 such a request in the presence of representative of the army, I mean

14 statement of Mr. Brdjanin. That's one part of the question. A second one

15 is: What was the reaction of the military officials to this request?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Colonel?

17 A. The Rudi Cajavec factory belonged to the municipality, to the town

18 of Banja Luka, and it also manufactured some military equipment. It

19 needed to be reorganised in order to be able to manufacture ammunition as

20 well, and experts were being sought for that purpose. President Radic

21 wanted to speed up this process, and he suggested that the government

22 should be bypassed in order not to waste time. That is at least how I

23 understood him. General Djukic was also in favour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not answering the question, Colonel. The

25 question was this: With reference to what Mr. Brdjanin allegedly said in

Page 13548

1 the course of that meeting, according to you, could a person without power

2 and authority make such a request in the presence of representatives of

3 the army? That's question number one. Your answer, yes or no?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Next question: What was the reaction of the

6 military officials to this request?

7 A. They didn't react at all, and it was decided that they should

8 start with the production as soon as possible.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's it.

10 Okay, Colonel, I'm sorry to have been so abrupt with you at this

11 very last part of the sitting. I know that everyone is tired. I thank

12 you -- yes.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your Honours,

14 just a few words. Honourable Judges, I wish to inform you that, as a

15 6-year-old boy in 1941, at the beginning of the Second World War, I was

16 placed in a children's home where I spent almost 15 years. I was educated

17 and brought up by the state. In this home, in this orphan age, we

18 socialised according to our inclinations and not in accordance to our

19 religious or ethnic affiliations. And it was to this multi-ethnic state

20 and multi-ethnic army that I gave my oath of loyalty. In Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina, there are many people now with the same beliefs, who hold the

22 same beliefs as I do. We are sparing no effort to have -- in order to

23 create once again a new Bosnia and Herzegovina, a prosperous country for

24 all its citizens and all its three constituent peoples who must people at

25 home in this state.

Page 13549

1 Your Honours, your assistance and your help is invaluable for us

2 in our efforts, and I should like to express my sincere gratitude to you.

3 Thank you very much for allowing me to say these words.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Colonel. On our part, on behalf of the

5 Tribunal and this Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over

6 and give evidence. I know that this must have been quite tiring for you.

7 You've been here for more than a week. This has now come to an end. Once

8 more, I thank you. You will be assisted by the officers of this Tribunal

9 to arrange for your return trip home, and on our part, we wish you a safe

10 journey back home. Thank you.

11 Ms. Korner, Monday, Mr. Mayhew first.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, Mr. Mayhew and then the witness who

13 had been here today.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I just want to offer DB116 through DB128.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. They are so admitted and yours too. That's

17 the end. Thank you. Have a nice weekend.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 6.27 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

20 the 27th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.