Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13550

1 Monday, 27 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

7 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Madam Registrar.

9 Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you hear me in a language you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner; Julian

15 Nicholls; hiding in the back, Ann Sutherland, just to show that we don't

16 have too many lawyers and as usual, Denise Gustin case manager.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Appearances for Radoslav

18 Brdjanin.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. John Ackerman with

20 Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No one hiding. Good morning to you.

22 I understand we have Mr. Mayhew this morning.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's right. He's here and -- but can

24 I just go into private session for a moment, please.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

Page 13551

1 No objection, Mr. Ackerman?

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And we are in open session. Let me know because I

19 can't check now. We are in open session.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, with respect to Mr. Mayhew, it's his

21 transcript that will be tendered, and the -- I think we will have to work

22 out the exhibits that were tendered with him -- I'm sorry, through him in

23 the Stakic case. Some of them may have already been tendered in this case

24 through Mr. McLeod, so I'd ask that we -- at the end of his evidence, we

25 can give Your Honour and the Registrar the numbers at a later stage.

Page 13554

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he will be testifying about documents

3 which came to light after he had completed his testimony in the Stakic

4 case. One of which came off his own disc, and it included a document that

5 we already had but with an extra bit added. The caveat had been taken out

6 by ECMM, but he had the original plus some earlier documents.

7 Your Honour, can I say straight away, as you will hear, he only

8 began working for ECMM in March, and some of these documents are earlier

9 documents. Your Honour, what I don't want to have to do is to call yet

10 another witness just to put the documents in. So, Your Honour, unless

11 there is an objection taken by Mr. Ackerman, I'm just going to literally

12 put them in by him attesting that these are the sort of documents that

13 ECMM produced.

14 So there will be some new documents and part of the OSCE report

15 which, although he dealt with extensive parts in testimony, some were left

16 out because they dealt with Manjaca which wasn't relevant to the Stakic

17 case.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: The problem that I see with the proposed way to

20 deal with the documents is the one that I keep referring to, and that is

21 some future lawyer working on this transcript trying to relate the

22 documents we are talking about to an exhibit number. If we don't assign

23 the exhibit number until after the testimony is completed, then everything

24 in the transcript about that exhibit is unrelated to the exhibit number.

25 And that always -- always creates a problem.

Page 13555

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That will create problems, yes, indeed.

2 But do you think there is a possible solution to that, Ms. Korner?

3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, what -- as I say, I personally

4 will not with one exception be referring to any of the documents that he

5 dealt with in the transcript, because they are there for Your Honours to

6 read. If Mr. Ackerman wants to cross-examine on some of them, then what

7 we'll try to do is assign a number as Mr. Ackerman cross-examines. I can

8 certainly -- I have a note of all the Stakic numbers within the

9 transcript.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I have actually prepared two of the documents that

11 I know I will use for sure and given them Defence exhibit numbers, and my

12 only concern about that is I didn't want to give them Defence Exhibit

13 numbers if they were also going to be given Prosecution exhibit numbers

14 first, but it looks like that's not going to happen.

15 MS. KORNER: Well, except they are. That will create all sorts

16 of -- obviously I was intending that everything --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I would rather prefer you gave them the usual

18 exhibit number since they were exhibited in Stakic, so that should be

19 easy.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And any -- I understand there is

22 something else which needs to be given --

23 MS. KORNER: They will be -- they have never been exhibited

24 before.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. Those will be new numbers. And perhaps if

Page 13556

1 Mr. Ackerman knows beforehand what the new number is going to be, that

2 shouldn't pose any problem at all.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: That would then solve the problem. And

4 Ms. Korner's suggestion that there are some documents older than the time

5 he started with ECMM does not bother me at all. I'm convinced they are

6 all authentic documents.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thought that much.

8 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Mayhew, Usher, please.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, while we are waiting I just might say

11 for the record and for Your Honours that I have gone through all of the

12 Novi exhibits and the Novi exhibit book, and I have no authenticity

13 objections with regard to any of those exhibits. And rather than put that

14 in writing, I think I can just announce that that's my position.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Mayhew.

18 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not the first time you're giving evidence

20 before this Tribunal. You've already given evidence in the Stakic case,

21 so you know what the procedure is. The usher will be handing you the text

22 of a solemn declaration which is -- to us, it's the equivalent of an

23 oath. Please read it out loud, and that will be your undertaking that

24 during the course of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the

25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, please proceed, thank you.

Page 13557

1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: JAMES BARNABAS BURKE MAYHEW

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. You will be first

5 examined-in-chief by Ms. Korner for the Prosecution, and she will then be

6 followed, I would imagine, by Mr. Ackerman, who is the lead counsel for

7 the accused, Radoslav Brdjanin, in this case. Ms. Korner, thank you.

8 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examined by Ms. Korner:

10 Q. Mr. Mayhew, I think your full name is James Barnabas Burke Mayhew?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But as the Court will see, when we look at some documents, do you

13 normally -- do you normally sign those documents Barney Mayhew, and you're

14 known generally as Barney?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Mayhew, you testified in Stakic at length about your

17 background and about a lot of your activities during the period whilst you

18 were working for ECMM, and I'm not proposing to go over that again. But I

19 want to ask you about some further documents that have since come to light

20 from the ECMM archives and I think partly from your own records.

21 I think it's right you only started working for ECMM in March of

22 1992. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But I want to you have a look, please, at some documents that were

25 produced before you started work and really just to confirm who the people

Page 13558

1 are and that these are actual reports produced by ECMM. The first report

2 I'd like you to look at is one dated the 1st of February, 1992.

3 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour forgive me for just one moment.

4 I'm not sure Your Honours have this. I think we may have to put them up

5 on the ELMO.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No, we don't have a single one.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm told Your Honour does have them. You were

8 handed -- or you should have been handed a bundle of documents.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe the Registrar has them because we don't.

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I don't -- Ms. Gustin tells me

11 that bundles of documents were handed in last week, and it doesn't appear

12 they've got -- this is I think one of the problems about us handing them

13 out in advance; they get lost in the system. Perhaps the simplest way of

14 dealing with there is to put up the documents on the ELMO for the present.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I would think so,

16 Ms. Korner that would spare us, but none of us up here do have the bundle

17 that you were referring to, so it hasn't reached us for sure.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I checked with my secretary this morning, she spent

20 almost half an hour --

21 [B/C/S interpretation channel coming through instead of English]

22 MS. KORNER: Right, but I mean we did hand out the bundle last

23 week.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's proceed.

25 MS. KORNER:

Page 13559

1 Q. Now, Mr. Mayhew, I think you had a chance to look through these

2 documents yesterday evening after you arrived here. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And just so that the Court understands, this is headed, "Team

5 Doboj." What was Team Doboj?

6 A. Team Doboj was a team of ECMM monitors assigned to visit Doboj

7 over possibly one visit or possibly over a period of time, and they were

8 part of the wider group of ECMM monitors based in Banja Luka.

9 Q. All right. This is not actually going to work, I think, if we

10 have the ELMO -- if you look at the screen --

11 MS. KORNER: Is Your Honours' screen not working either? Can we

12 put it on --

13 A. I can see on the screen part of the document.

14 Q. We'll move it up and that way the Judges can see you. It's dated

15 the 1st of February, 1992, which I think is, as you said, before you

16 started work. But if you look, please, at the second page, is there --

17 there are three signatures there. Do you know these people? Or any of

18 them?

19 A. I know Dave Holt, the signature on the left. I know the name. I

20 don't know the signature.

21 Q. All right. And who was Mr. Holt?

22 A. By the time I arrived in Banja Luka, which was sometime later,

23 Dave Holt was the leader of the Banja Luka group of teams. He was an ECMM

24 monitor.

25 Q. And how many teams were there in the Banja Luka -- working in the

Page 13560

1 sort of Banja Luka area?

2 A. Roughly three from memory. I think it was seven monitors roughly

3 seven, plus the necessary drivers.

4 Q. This is a daily report dated the 1st of February, which deals with

5 a visit to a town called Donji Vakuf, as is stated, on the way to Banja

6 Luka. Is that a place that you became familiar with at all?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. And we see that the officials met included the mayor, the

9 president of the SDS, and various other officials and party members who

10 were there. I don't think we need bother so much about the population,

11 which is listed, and there is then a series of problems. And item number

12 4 says, "There are about 69 refugees in the town, 95 per cent Serbs. They

13 present no problem. They are housed with families and friends."

14 And then if you could look at the second page, please, that states

15 that cooperation between leading parties is generally good, the SDA

16 reported that sometimes the SDS had tried to exercise influence without

17 consultation. And then item number 7, "National conflict is not common."

18 And then finally, the conclusion, "The main humanitarian problem facing

19 this town is the food shortage which seems to be out of proportion with

20 the other towns visited."

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that then be made an exhibit please,

22 which will be 1609?

23 Now, the next document please I'd like you to look at is one dated

24 the 7th of February, so some six days later. Again, a daily report signed

25 by the same people as -- signed twice for some reason, and signed at

Page 13561

1 last. And the subject is a visit to Celinac. The officials met -- the

2 mayor, Kovacevic, SDS; and then R. Brdjanin, SDS deputy chairman then SDP

3 president, SDS; and so on, and the local press.

4 Before we go any further, did you, to your recollection, during

5 your time in Banja Luka or the Banja Luka area ever meet Mr. Brdjanin?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. You can't say whether you did or not?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. All right. Anyhow, definitely your colleagues did. The general

10 under item 1, "General, though, there had been no problems since the last

11 visit." This was the 2nd. "An increase of refugees from 745 in November,

12 1991, to 1200 now. No major medical or food or problem with elderly or

13 children." And then, "Refugees are mostly Serbs with some Muslims

14 quartered in private houses."

15 And then it says, "Next visit, CFV investigation." Do you know

16 what that stands for?

17 A. CFV stands for cease-fire violation.

18 Q. "Novska, see new bridge and visit concentration camp to view

19 desecration." Yes, thank you.

20 MS. KORNER: Could that be made 1610, please?

21 Q. Next, could you look at effectively a weekly summary dated also

22 the 9th of February? And again, just so that the Court understands, were

23 the earlier reports we were looking at, as we can see, a daily report, and

24 then at the end, would there be a summary of all the activities during the

25 week?

Page 13562

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. And I think we can really deal with that very quickly

3 because we see in paragraph 1, the team visited Donji Vakuf, which was

4 that report we looked at. Item number 7, there was a visit to Celinac.

5 And then at the end of the report, if we look at the second page, there

6 was a conclusion that there was 100 per cent improvement on the part of

7 the JNA cooperation. And effectively -- a lot of this report I think is

8 dealing with the cease-fire in relation to the events of Croatia. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. I'd have to look back at page 1.

11 Q. Don't worry.

12 A. When we are talking about cease-fire, generally it referred to the

13 front line running through Croatia.

14 Q. That will be 1611, please.

15 And then the next document, please, 23rd of February, a daily

16 report dated, as I say, the 23rd of February, and it says there was a

17 meeting at Pakrac with -- is that CNG?

18 A. As far as I remember, that refers to Croatian National Guard.

19 Q. And the JNA and then it says, "Authorities met at the meeting,"

20 and then various places are mentioned, and then we see under Stara

21 Gradiska, General Talic. And again, I don't need to trouble you with the

22 contents so much. Item 5 deals with that meeting with General Talic, but

23 it's mainly, I think, in respect of, again, the Croatian front line, as it

24 were.

25 Again, Mr. Mayhew, did you ever meet General Talic?

Page 13563

1 A. I can't remember whether I did or didn't.

2 Q. All right.

3 MS. KORNER: 1612, please.

4 Q. Then the next document, please, the 9th of April. Now, by then,

5 had you actually reached Banja Luka?

6 A. I'm not absolutely certain as to dates. My recollection is that I

7 arrived in Sarajevo on around about the 6th of April, possibly the 5th,

8 and that I was delayed in Sarajevo for several days because some shooting

9 had occurred there. So it may be that I arrived roughly on the 9th of

10 April or possibly a day later. I'm not certain.

11 Q. And we see again Mr. Holt's name on this report and two other

12 people, a Denis Bouttier and a Jerry Krupka. You knew Mr. Holt, what

13 about the other two?

14 A. I remember Denis Bouttier. I don't remember Jerry Krupka.

15 Q. And this deals with the current situation in Banja Luka. "Team

16 would leave for Derventa. In Banja Luka last night, at 2400 hours, there

17 were two low order explosions, possibly hand grenades, and automatic small

18 arms fire. This lasted for about half an hour. It was with within 250

19 metres of the hotel."

20 Was the team staying in the Hotel Bosna, your team?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then there is a report from an interpreter that he heard about a

23 power station having been attacked. And then finally an interview with

24 the UN yielded the information that it is not possible to go from Banja

25 Luka to Belgrade due to hostile blockades. It is understood that this

Page 13564

1 information is from the JNA.

2 When you got to Banja Luka, did you have a problem with

3 barricades?

4 A. I remember there were several barricades of an informal kind, some

5 men on the road, possibly with a make-shift barricade at several points

6 between Sarajevo and Banja Luka, but we were allowed through.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that will be 1613, please.

9 Q. Then next the 18th of April, 1992, this is a situation report.

10 What's the difference between a situation report and a daily report?

11 A. Well, a daily report would be put out at the end of each day. In

12 fact, a daily report is a daily situation report or it's a report of your

13 activities that day which would include a report on the situation. The

14 fact that it is titled here, "Situation report" probably means that it is

15 not a daily report but is a report on the situation put out other than at

16 the normal time for a daily report.

17 Q. All right. Now, I think this -- you know something about the

18 events here. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Item 1 refers to a CapSat and a flak jacket and

21 personal effects of Banja Luka 1 remaining unrecovered.

22 And it goes on to describe that. What was that about?

23 A. Yes. As far as I recall, Banja Luka 1 was a team of which I was a

24 member. We had been working in Derventa. The situation had become

25 violent. There had been some shelling of the town. We were trying to

Page 13565

1 negotiate with the leaders of all sides to calm it down. An informal

2 front line had grown up between the hotel in Derventa where we were

3 staying, and where we had our CapSat communications machine and as I

4 recall, one of the military leaders. We crossed that front line to

5 negotiate with him. By the time our meeting was over, that front line had

6 become too dangerous for us to return to the hotel, and we were obliged to

7 evacuate back to Banja Luka, leaving the CapSat and these other effects

8 in the hotel.

9 Q. All right. Then item 2 deals with the JNA and Croatian

10 interpreters. Item 3, "The Banja Luka chief of police told us that police

11 escorts and fuel from the police resources will no longer be provided as

12 of today." Do you remember the name of the Banja Luka chief of police?

13 A. I've been reminded by reports that I've read in the -- in

14 preparation for today. I remember Mr. Zupljanin was the name of the chief

15 of police in at least one meeting.

16 Q. And then item 4, "The JNA LO," LO being what?

17 A. Liaison officer.

18 Q. "And city officials confirmed that the government of the Serbian

19 Republic of Krajina and Kninska Krajina have decided that EC observers are

20 no longer desired on their territory." This has nothing to -- should that

21 read to do with Bosnia?

22 A. I think so.

23 Q. "Commander 5th Corps has stated that the -- that EC are welcome to

24 operate in the above areas within five corps boundaries." So are we

25 talking there about the Croatian Krajina as opposed to the Krajina which

Page 13566

1 included Banja Luka?

2 A. May I just take a moment to read it again?

3 Q. Absolutely.

4 A. Well, I think we are talking about the whole 5th Corps area whose

5 boundaries I don't recall, but I think it's -- and therefore, if that

6 extended into Croatia, then it would refer to Croatia as well as Bosanska

7 Krajina, which is one of the descriptions for that northern part of

8 Bosnia.

9 Q. When it was talking about though the government of the Serbian

10 Republic of Krajina, and saying that the EC observers are no longer

11 desired on their territory, can you recall now what was meant by that?

12 A. Sorry, yes, that is the Serb Republic of Krajina and think it

13 should read probably Kninska Krajina from memory rather than -- I think

14 there is an N missing. Is that part of the Krajina which is outside what

15 is now known as Bosnia and within Croatia.

16 Q. And then Mr. Holt finishes by saying "I have secured a meeting

17 with the mayor for Monday, the 20th of April, at 1000 hours to discuss the

18 fuel, escorts, and whether we can expect to see a similar decision made

19 about banning our services within the Autonomous Region of Bosanska

20 Krajina." And ends, "Have a nice day."

21 Yes, thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: That will be 1614.

23 Q. Next can we have the report of the 20th of April, which covers

24 that meeting that was going to be held? It's a daily report. Subject,

25 "Visit to Mayor Radic of Banja Luka. On the 20th of April, at 1000 hours

Page 13567

1 we had a meeting with the mayor of Banja Luka. We updated him on the

2 situation in Livno and then assured him that we, through the cooperation

3 of the EC at Split would continue to deal with the problem of the Serb

4 hostages being held in that area. We asked if the ban of EC activities

5 now adopted in the Serbian Republic of Krajina would be extended to

6 include the Bosanska Krajina, to which he indicated that he valued our

7 work and it was not foreseen."

8 And then, "He was asked to reconsider the question of the

9 provision of fuel by police, and he said but due to shortages he offered

10 that we could have to seek settlement of the claimed theft of some 76

11 tonnes of fuel, and some tankers owned by the city of Banja Luka by the

12 city of Derventa before he could help. We asked if there would be, and

13 when, elections would occur in the Bosanska Krajina, to which he did not

14 give a direct answer."

15 And then he asked about pursuing the release of a Major Zaric,

16 something to do with Zagreb. And then there was a discussion in respect

17 of Livno, and various permits. Then he talked about refugees, Serbs, and

18 the mayor showed some documents. And then if we go to the next page,

19 please, where we see -- there is a comment, "We feel that since he is

20 receptive to this," this is about working agreements, "And since he is a

21 potentially important figure in the formation of politics to be, it is

22 significant and may be a good basis for future agreements, negotiations on

23 the whole problem."

24 2, EC activities, "The mayor is satisfied with our activities and

25 is appreciative of our successes. He does not foresee our expulsion from

Page 13568

1 the Bosanska Krajina. He also agrees with the JNA decision of allowing us

2 to operate in the Serbian Republic of Krajina within the 5th Corps

3 boundaries. His staff checked and no new instructions exist from the

4 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina concerning this." And then

5 there is fuel, and then the elections. "The mayor did not answer our

6 question directly but went on to explain that a Prime Minister, professor,

7 Dr. Djeric has been appointed along with several ministers." And then the

8 remarks effectively dealing with satisfaction.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes, that will be 1615, please.

10 Q. Now, the other documents I think you dealt with those that relate

11 to your return to -- sorry --

12 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour, I've managed to get my microphone

13 tangled up.

14 Q. Except you were able to produce the complete version of a document

15 in respect of the visit to Manjaca and Trnopolje, and I want to ask you to

16 look at that because a caveat had been removed by ECMM before it was sent

17 off and I think you had the whole document on your disc. So could you be

18 shown now a report dated the 4th of September, headed, "Manjaca and

19 Trnopolje"? I want to deal in fact with the part on Manjaca.

20 MS. KORNER: Now, Your Honour, although I think this did go in

21 through Mr. McLeod, it was the original version with the caveat removed.

22 So that will have to become another document.

23 Q. Can we deal with Manjaca? Was this a report written by you, as we

24 can see your signature at the end?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13569

1 Q. Manjaca. The camp at Manjaca, you said, was a military camp, and

2 you described it. "It holds approximately 3.600 male prisoners, about

3 95 per cent of whom are Muslims. The Bosnian Serb authorities claim that

4 these are prisoners of war. When pressed they defined prisoner of war as

5 those who were arrested in combat zones. Combat zones appear in practice

6 to have been local municipalities with a high proportion of Muslims. As

7 far as we know, there has been little fighting in these areas. Once

8 arrested, according to the camp commandant, the Manjaca prisoners are

9 investigated and if found to be innocent of any crime, they are released

10 to Trnopolje or elsewhere. The stories of the prisoners interviewed

11 without witnesses conflict with the authorities' claims. According to the

12 prisoners, almost all of them are civilians from Prijedor, Sanski Most,

13 Kljuc, and other nearby areas. They claim that most of them had not

14 possessed weapons. They say they do not know why they are held. Most

15 have no news of their families and believe that their houses are

16 destroyed.

17 "In consequence, all to whom we spoke wished to leave Serb-held

18 Bosnia and rejoin their families anywhere else. The prisoners are housed

19 at closed quarters, in six large cattle sheds. In attitude they are cowed

20 with their eyes deliberately held on the ground until spoken to directly.

21 No visible prisoner bore marks of physical abuse but discipline is

22 evidently extremely strict. Latrines appear to be well constructed.

23 Water and soap are in short supply, leading to prevalent diarrhoea-related

24 sickness. This was named as the top medical problem by the camp doctor

25 who gave urinary tract and respiratory infections as other major

Page 13570

1 problems. Food has, according to the prisoners, dramatically improved

2 within the last week, as the ICRC has been supplying food. The camp

3 commandant said that no provision of any kind had been made for winter, as

4 he hoped the prisoners would all have gone before then. A doctor

5 travelling with the team assessed that prisoners would begin to die

6 rapidly with the onset of winter if they remained in the camp under

7 current conditions."

8 Now, Mr. Mayhew, even ten years on, do you still remember now what

9 Manjaca was like?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. We can see what you said in your report. What impression did it

12 leave with you?

13 A. It left me the impression that -- that the regime was very firm

14 indeed. I was very struck by the demeanour of the prisoners in Manjaca.

15 I have been into other prisons in different countries, and I have not seen

16 this demeanor elsewhere. For -- I had the impression that for people to

17 be behaving in this way, even when walking along, hands were behind back,

18 very firmly eyes down on the ground, that to achieve that uniformity of

19 behaviour, a very harsh regime would have been necessary. And I was

20 impressed particularly by the fact that this was the day on which a

21 preannounced high level visit was taking place, which -- in which the camp

22 authorities would have wanted to show the camp off at its best.

23 Q. You recorded that the prisoners were nearly all civilians. From

24 what you saw of them, and obviously -- because you weren't there to see

25 their arrest, you can't say for sure, but did that seem to be accurate

Page 13571

1 that these were civilians as opposed to being fighting men?

2 A. I think just to be strictly correct, I think I reported that the

3 prisoners said that they were nearly all civilians. Would you just repeat

4 your question.

5 Q. Sorry. The prisoners told you that they were civilians. From

6 what you saw of them, did that seem to be an accurate description? In

7 other words, that these were not men who had been fighting?

8 A. It seemed to me credible that that was true for the majority. It

9 seemed to me likely, because of my knowledge of the general situation,

10 that there would be at least some within that camp who had taken up arms,

11 whether or not they were part of any kind of regular or paramilitary

12 force, but my impression again from what they said combined with my

13 knowledge of the general situation. And the way in which they said it

14 made me think that it was highly likely that a very large proportion -- or

15 a large proportion, and I certainly couldn't get into percentages, were

16 civilians who had had no part in any fighting.

17 Q. Yes, thank you.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that then be made P1616? I'm sorry,

19 can it -- just one -- I should deal with the caveat because that was the

20 reason it was produced. Sorry about that.

21 Q. At the end of this report, you added the caveat, "It is emphasised

22 that the team has not yet given the Bosnian Serb authorities an

23 opportunity to tell their side of the story of Kozarac and similar

24 places. Teams hope to do this soon and in addition make a more

25 wide-ranging assessment of the situation in Northern Bosnia. This report

Page 13572

1 should therefore be protected."

2 And just on that note, Mr. Mayhew, first, did you ever get a

3 report from the Bosnian Serb authorities about what they were saying

4 happened in Kozarac?

5 A. I don't think we did, other than the conversations we had with

6 them in the course of this visit and the one that immediately succeeded

7 it, which was in the next couple of days.

8 Q. Yes. Thank you.

9 MS. KORNER: May that be made Exhibit 1616?

10 Q. And the final document that I want to ask you to look at again,

11 please, is the report of the mission which you were accompanying with

12 Mr. McLeod, the CSCE mission, to inspect the places of detention.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that was Exhibit 217 -- S217A in Stakic,

14 so this will be 1617/S whatever.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

16 MS. KORNER: All right.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you able to follow, Mr. Ackerman?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. Now, this report and your knowledge, Mr. Mayhew, caused a little

22 bit of problems in the Stakic case.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm grateful to Mr. Ackerman who said he

24 takes no point on what happened at all there. Indeed I was going to point

25 out the way it came out was not in fact the way it was said.

Page 13573

1 Q. But I think it's right that you saw it at the time it came out and

2 you've reread the whole thing now. Is that correct?

3 A. I have reread the whole thing now. At the time it came out, I

4 can't remember whether I read the whole thing or not. I would -- but I

5 think it's very likely that I did, because I was involved in the mission

6 and the mission would have received a copy.

7 Q. Right. Now, again I dealt with large parts of this in the Stakic

8 trial. But I think we just need to look, please -- forgive me for just

9 one moment. Yes. The first part was the introduction to the mission and

10 then the background. Yes. Can we go, please, to the seventh page of that

11 report?

12 You dealt with the meeting with Mr. Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb

13 leader, and then you dealt with -- or I'm sorry, you -- the report dealt

14 with, I apologise -- lack of respect for the civilian population. "The

15 mission determined that a complete range of individuals both males and

16 females, young and old, are now being held throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina

17 in various places of detention, and we met with prisoners as young as 17

18 or even less and as old as 83." And then going on, "There were three

19 categories, prisoners of war. These prisoners have taken an active part

20 in the hostilities and can legally be detained as combatants under the

21 third Geneva Convention of 1949. The mission saw very few of these. It

22 was our impression that much of the fighting was to the death."

23 Obviously this report was based on places that you didn't visit,

24 as you explained, the mission was split. But was that an impression that

25 you got, that fighting was to the death in the area that you visited and

Page 13574

1 you knew, that is around Banja Luka?

2 A. I obviously was not present during the fighting except at the

3 edges of it and except by mistake and except when trying to negotiate a

4 deal, a cease-fire between commanders. So I can't comment on the manner

5 and style of fighting. My colleagues and I had the impression at the time

6 that there was not much respect on any side for prisoners, nor for some of

7 the internationally accepted rules of war. Therefore, it would not have

8 surprised us, given our experiences at the time, had prisoners been killed

9 or had there been a refusal to take prisoners and therefore fighting would

10 have been to the death. But that is based on our general knowledge rather

11 than specific observation.

12 Q. Right. Then there was under B, "people who had allegedly been

13 hiding weapons and/or possessed information of potential military

14 significance." The next page, page 8, please. C, "people who were taken

15 prisoner because they lived or worked in the zone of combat. These people

16 were not taking part in hostilities but were seen as enemies due to their

17 ethnic origin. Their civilians [non-combatant status] should have

18 protected them from detention. This category was easily the largest."

19 Next paragraph deals with stating that, "The mission was not

20 impressed by claims, that they were incarcerated for their own safety or

21 simply because they happened to be resident in a combat zone. Impossible

22 to escape the conclusion that most prisoners are innocent people who have

23 been seized as hostages to promote ethnic cleansing. They are pawns in

24 vicious games played by nationalist politicians."

25 And then the penultimate paragraph talks about, "The destruction

Page 13575

1 of dwellings, local population of one or other ethnic group can never be

2 justified as an action against military targets, a claim that was made to

3 the mission. The ethnically selective torching of houses constitutes in

4 all circumstances a grave violation of international humanitarian law.

5 And military commanders or political authorities who were in a position to

6 prevent such acts should be held legally responsible."

7 Very briefly because I believe you described it to the Stakic

8 trial, I think you, on your visits to Manjaca, Trnopolje, and the other

9 places, saw destruction. Is that correct?

10 A. We saw a number of burned-out houses.

11 Q. Then if we move on quickly through this, page 9, you dealt with

12 the responsibility of leaders or I'm sorry, I keep saying you. The

13 report, "Despite the existence of warlords, the bulk of the evidence

14 points to the responsibility of acknowledged leaders. The mission

15 believes that in general, leaders exercise effective control over their

16 military and civilian structures. Contrary to what is usually accepted,

17 the so-called uncontrolled elements are marginal. They exist but their

18 importance has been exaggerated by various leaders who find them a

19 convenient explanation for numerous barbarities. The mission had seen

20 camps well organised with military personnel or policemen doing what they

21 were told to do."

22 Is that something that you would agree with from seeing Manjaca

23 and/or Trnopolje?

24 A. Yes. I would agree with this paragraph, which I think is well

25 written on this point.

Page 13576

1 Q. Then as I say if we move through to page 10, "Lack of

2 transparency. Ethnic cleansing operations, which are taking place with

3 official connivance or direct support have left people virtually

4 defenceless even in their homes. Murders, rapes, robberies, assaults and

5 beatings are continuing. Those who carry out these activities are often

6 personally known by their victims and by others in the community. Few

7 have reportedly been brought to justice. Local authorities who profess to

8 be powerless to prevent such abuses and who claim lack of knowledge should

9 not be allowed to continue such charades."

10 Again, did you have yourself, were you present at discussions with

11 such local authorities?

12 A. I was present with the CSCE team in all of their meetings.

13 Q. Then you deal with Trnopolje, but we've already dealt with that

14 in -- it's in the transcript. The treatment of prisoners by authorities

15 and general conditions in the centres at page 11. "With very few

16 exceptions camp authorities have little sympathy for detainees. We

17 witnessed the results of beatings, wounds, fractures, and other injuries

18 in camps controlled by Serbian, Muslim, and Croatian authorities and have

19 reason to believe that innocent prisoners on all sides have been

20 executed. Then the general conditions, "Almost all the centres visited

21 have been improvised and there we see there were stables in Manjaca."

22 You then dealt again with Trnopolje.

23 A. The report deals with Trnopolje.

24 Q. I'm sorry, I keep saying this. The report deals. And then with

25 the conditions there, and then, "Water and food, thus at Manjaca detainees

Page 13577

1 are provided with five only litres of water daily for drinking and

2 bathing." Then the health, if we can look at that at page 12. "In

3 Manjaca, most prisoners exhibit signs of very serious malnourishment,

4 including" -- it's almost as bad as Bosnian --

5 A. I think it may be cachexia.

6 Q. "Cachexia, hair loss, sunken eyes, and muscle wasting while

7 detainees in other centres are generally less seriously threatened.

8 Detainees in Manjaca admit to weight loss of 10 to 40 kilograms during 2

9 to 3 months of detention there and in other notorious centres such as the

10 camp at Omarska which the prisoners believe is now closed. In Manjaca and

11 in other locations, the foodstuffs provided have improved during the past

12 two to three weeks due, we believe, to visits by international

13 delegations, the press, and the ICRC."

14 Then I think there is -- the rest -- yes, if we go, please, to

15 medical services at page 13 -- I'm sorry, the bottom of page 12. "It's

16 not too strong to say that the vast majority of the prisoners are living

17 in fear and some in terror of their lives. This is reflected in their

18 behaviour. They react immediately to commands to stand, sit, proceed to

19 the eating places, and in many instances walk like humbled and degraded

20 persons with stooped shoulders and their hands behind their backs. This

21 was particularly evident in Manjaca and Konjic. Previous mistreatment by

22 authorities has undoubtedly broken the spirits of many prisoners. Mental

23 scars are likely to persist for a long time to come." Medical services,

24 and then again, you dealt -- the report dealt with Manjaca. "The hospital

25 ward at Manjaca is completely unacceptable, with the ill and injured

Page 13578

1 accommodated on the floor of a small former stable with only a single

2 blanket for each of their comfort."

3 And then violations, you deal -- or the report deals with

4 violations of international humanitarian law and then recommendations,

5 which we dealt with, plus various annexes.

6 Yes. Thank you very much.

7 And then, Mr. Mayhew, after you dealt -- you accompanied the

8 mission, I think you also - and we dealt within your previous testimony -

9 helped with an air lift of prisoners I think from Manjaca?

10 A. From Manjaca and I think also from Trnopolje and a hospital, yes.

11 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Mayhew.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I tender the transcript, please, as

13 Exhibit P1617? And that report which I've just dealt with is S --

14 whatever it is /S217. Right.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. Mr. Ackerman will now be

16 cross-examining you, sir.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. You may proceed.

20 MR. ACKERMAN:

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mayhew.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. How are you?

24 A. I'm well, thank you.

25 Q. Welcome back.

Page 13579

1 A. Thank you.

2 Q. I want to begin by going through some of the documents that

3 Ms. Korner spoke with you about in the last few moments, and the first

4 one -- basically the same order she went through them, the first one is

5 P1610 -- I'm sorry, P -- okay. It's not the first one actually?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, you're right, Mr. Ackerman. It's not the

7 first one. It's the second or the third one. It's the second one

8 actually.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: P1610. Here it is.

10 Q. Do you have it where you can see it?

11 A. I can see the document here.

12 Q. I'm interested, sir, in the -- in paragraph 7. First of all, do

13 you know where Novska is?

14 A. Yes, I refreshed my memory last night using a map.

15 Q. Good. Tell us. Thank you for doing that by the way.

16 A. It's in Croatia.

17 Q. Okay. And this talks about a cease-fire violation that will be

18 investigated in Croatia near Novska, and then adds, "see new bridge and

19 visit concentration camp to view desecration."

20 Now, that part, "visit concentration camp to view desecration"

21 involves a visit, does it not, to the World War II concentration camp of

22 Jasenovac, which had become a museum and which the Croatian forces had

23 desecrated?

24 A. I remember from another report which I read in the bundle that I

25 was reading last night the report of that visit, and it is that report

Page 13580

1 which tells me that it is referring to Jasenovac.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Or Jasenovac. I'm not quite sure how it's pronounced.

4 Q. It's not referring to any of the camps that are the subject of the

5 1992 events in the Krajina area, is it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. All right. The next document I want you to look at is P1613 --

8 well, actually let's go to P1612 first, I guess, and then we'll go to

9 P1613. So if we can get them both over there.

10 Now, P1612 is the 23 February 1992 Team Doboj report and

11 Ms. Korner referred very briefly to paragraph 5 of that report. I assume

12 last night when you were reviewing these documents you had an opportunity

13 to read paragraph 5?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. And the question I have about it is that that paragraph describes,

16 does it not, among other things, a visit with General Talic at what would

17 have been the front lines at that point, and at that point, there was a

18 cease-fire agreement in effect. And this paragraph reveals a rather

19 serious cease-fire violation by the Croatian National Guard, doesn't it?

20 A. I need to check a part of the document I can't see at the moment

21 to check if it was during a visit with General Talic. May I see that?

22 Q. Yeah, you can just pull it off the ELMO or however you want to do

23 it because it's hard to read. It's not a very good copy.

24 A. Would you please give me a moment?

25 Q. Yes. Please take your time.

Page 13581

1 A. From a quick rereading here, I'm not sure that it's clear that

2 they were with General Talic when, in paragraph 3, it refers to burnings

3 taking place four to five times nightly. I'm looking at five times

4 nightly which I took to be paragraph 5 there. Do you mean paragraph 5?

5 Q. Paragraph 5. It begins with, "At Stara Gradiska this team met

6 General Talic."

7 A. I'm sorry. Okay. It is dealing with a reported cease-fire

8 violations in the presence of General Talic.

9 Q. And of the monitors?

10 A. And of the monitors, yes.

11 Q. Yeah. For instance it says, "It should be noted that the CNG,

12 Croatian National Guard, has advanced far forward of the 3 January

13 cease-fire line at the hill. They were asked to withdraw at the 17

14 February meeting but at that meeting Lieutenant Colonel Vukovic stated

15 that he did not have authority to comply." And then you go a little

16 further, it indicates, "The team had investigated a reported cease-fire

17 violation and confirmed it because of the fresh dust." And then

18 apparently while they were there, the CNG fired SA, what's SA?

19 A. Small arms.

20 Q. At the town showing absolute disregard for the cease-fire and the

21 agreements with the EC about monitors. Correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And then, "It's recommended that negotiations be made with a view

24 to withdraw the Croatian National Guard from this" -- it's difficult to

25 read, this -- from something. "They will have to return to 3 January

Page 13582

1 cease-fire line," and so forth.

2 A. I think it says this dominating ground.

3 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.

4 Now, 1613, please.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I think I have my numbers confused, Your

6 Honour. I think it maybe 1616. I'm looking for the one of 9 April, 1992,

7 and I think that might be 1616 -- no, it's not.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is 9 April, 199 --

9 MR. ACKERMAN: It is 1613. I just read it wrong on here.

10 Q. All right. This is the one Ms. Korner was talking to you dated 9

11 April 1992, and she had asked you if you had arrived in Banja Luka by the

12 date of that report, and you indicated that possibly. It certainly was

13 very close to that date, that you had arrived. Correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Apparently, there were other ECMM monitors on the scene in Banja

16 Luka before your arrival?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So you actually came there and joined a group that had already

19 been there, including apparently Holt and Bouttier?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I think you said in Stakic that you were unfamiliar with any

22 activity in Banja Luka by a group calling themselves the SOS. Is that

23 correct?

24 A I don't remember now whether -- I don't remember about that, so I

25 can't be sure whether at the time I was familiar with it or not.

Page 13583

1 Q. You don't remember being told anything by the other team members

2 when you arrived there around the 9th of April about recent events

3 involving an organisation called SOS?

4 A. I don't remember that.

5 Q. All right. Now could we look at 1615, please? This document

6 deals with a - among other things - locality known as Livno, does it not?

7 A. Just looking for the -- can you point out where Livno is

8 mentioned?

9 Q. It's the beginning of paragraph 2.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then A talks about shelling and bombing at Livno. Can you

12 tell us where Livno is?

13 A. It's some considerable distance to the southwest of Banja Luka.

14 Q. And yet when you met with the mayor, he -- I don't know. Were you

15 part of this meeting?

16 A. I think not. It is signed by Holt and Bouttier, which implies

17 that I was probably not there.

18 Q. When this meeting took place the mayor was expressing some concern

19 apparently about what was going on at Livno. Paragraph 2 basically says

20 that, "The mayor's concern is as follows."

21 A. Yes. I didn't realise you were asking me a question.

22 Q. Sometimes I don't put the right emphasis on the end of a sentence

23 to make it sound like a question.

24 Now, Livno, of course, was way outside the borders of the Banja

25 Luka municipality, wasn't it?

Page 13584

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. What the mayor said, that -- about that was that he feared that

3 the Croats wanted to use Serb hostages as exchange for POWs from Kupres

4 and as a shield from shelling and bombing at Livno. Correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And then look at C. "He showed us documentation, we have same --

7 apparently copies of it were given to the -- stamped and signed by one

8 Mr. Stipe Barun which the mayor claims is being sold at Deutschmarks 2.000

9 per copy to Serbs in the Livno area. This permits them to leave the area

10 but not to return, in effect confiscating their properties for their

11 lives. These people had the consent of the legal authority, their mayor,

12 Mr. Brkovic to leave but they have been stopped by Mr. Barun the current

13 president of the crisis committee of Livno. The mayor also claims that

14 Barun is an infamous criminal known as the stranger from Split."

15 JUDGE AGIUS: "Stranger" or "strangler"?

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. Strangler from Split. Do you know anything more about that than

18 we can read there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right.

21 Q. And then finally look at paragraph, it's the second paragraph 2,

22 there are two paragraph 2s. It's the one on the next page, regarding EC

23 activities. "The mayor is satisfied with our activities and is

24 appreciative of our successes. He does not foresee our expulsion from

25 Bosanska Krajina. He also agrees with the JNA decision of allowing us to

Page 13585

1 operate in the Serbian Republic of Krajina within five corps boundaries.

2 His staff checked and no new instructions exist from the Serbian Republic

3 of Bosnia and Herzegovina concerning this."

4 So apparently what this indicates is the mayor checked with the

5 higher authorities in Pale and there were no new instructions regarding

6 how your mission should be viewed. Is that the way you read that?

7 A. Yes, with the only rider that I'm not certain where the higher

8 authorities were, whether they at that stage were in Pale or elsewhere.

9 Q. Or maybe Sarajevo.

10 A. I don't know.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. It's a good time to break there.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. We'll take a break of 25

13 minutes please. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

16 MS. KORNER: I understand Your Honours have now got the documents.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and they actually had been delivered, as you

18 had stated, Ms. Korner.

19 MS. KORNER: In open court, Your Honour. I'm not going to start

20 spreading --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: They got shipwrecked somewhere along the way. We

22 got them with apologies, so that's no problem. Thank you.

23 Mr. Ackerman, just before I give you the go ahead, please slow

24 down because the interpreters are having problems. The problem,

25 Mr. Mayhew and Mr. Ackerman, is that you both speak the same language,

Page 13586

1 and the same mistake I'm making myself sometimes when I interject the way

2 I do. So please allow a little bit of an interval between question and

3 answer and vice versa to enable the interpreters to pick up enough time

4 for their interpretation. Because otherwise they have to interpret into

5 B/C/S, Serbo-Croat, and also in French, even though I don't think there is

6 anyone following in French, but that's the position, all right? Thanks.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Mayhew, let's both try to do better, even though we might

11 quibble with the proposition whether we speak the same language.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's exactly -- okay. I concede that.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

14 Q. I want now to spend some -- just a very brief time with the

15 mission report, which is P1617/217. All right. Let's go to page 11. On

16 page 11, the report says, under treatment of prisoners by authorities, "We

17 witnessed the result the of beatings, wounds, fractures, and other

18 injuries in camps controlled by Serbian, Muslim and Croatian authorities."

19 Now, you've -- you told us, and you told the judges in Stakic, that in

20 both Manjaca and Trnopolje, you saw no evidence of beatings of the

21 prisoners.

22 So could I understand that this paragraph, then, refers to other

23 camps that you visited throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. I think in one of the reports, possibly the transcript that I read

25 last night, and I am not sure which, I said a phrase such as, "Although we

Page 13587

1 saw some people in the medical centre with injuries." And I do recall now

2 also that in the medical centre at Manjaca, there were people with leg

3 wounds, and I don't know the cause of those.

4 Q. Other than that, you would agree, I take it?

5 A. I would agree with what, precisely?

6 Q. That what I suggested with regard to that paragraph, that it

7 primarily referred to other camps beyond Manjaca and Trnopolje, that you'd

8 been able to visit? Or that someone from the mission had?

9 A. I can't be sure of that, and the reason for that is that we found

10 out and spoke to different people and saw different people within both

11 Manjaca and Trnopolje. And it's possible that other members of the team

12 present while I was present saw injuries that I didn't see.

13 Q. Please go now to page 13. Now, the fact is that this fall mission

14 to Bosnia-Herzegovina had as its purpose visiting a very large number of

15 detention facilities, didn't it?

16 A. I think its purpose was to visit as many as possible within the

17 time allowed.

18 Q. That's what it was about, to inspect places of detention. And, of

19 course, a great number of them were in fact visited. And there is a list

20 in this document of all the ones that were visited, isn't there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You had talked this morning about the -- what you believe to be

23 the unique behaviour of the prisoners in Manjaca, the walking with their

24 heads down, their hands behind their backs, stooped shoulders, that sort

25 of thing. The report says there on page 13, you'll see, that this was

Page 13588

1 particularly evident in Manjaca and at Konjic.

2 Were you with the group that went to Konjic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you know that that was a facility where Muslim authorities were

5 holding Serb prisoners?

6 A. I don't remember the details about Konjic.

7 Q. We could actually look back in the back of the document and

8 confirm that. If you look at page 59 -- page 59, it speaks of a visit to

9 Konjic on 3 September of 1992, "Prisoners being held in the sports hall,

10 167 Serbian prisoners, men of all ages, Konjic, Celebici, 109 Serbian

11 prisoners, and then it speaks of who the authorities in charge of holding

12 them there were, the commander of the Bosnian-Croatian military

13 headquarters, the commanders of the Bosnian-Muslim military headquarters,

14 and then a person named as the director of the Celebici prison."

15 So you'd agree with me that that was a prison in which Serbs were

16 held?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. The thing that sort of baffles me is the -- the paragraph

19 describes a characteristic regarding treatment of these prisoners, and let

20 me put it in the exact language of the report. "They react immediately to

21 commands to stand, sit, proceed to the eating places, and in many

22 instances walk like humbled and degraded persons with stooped shoulders

23 and their hands behind their backs." And then it says, "This was

24 particularly evident as Manjaca and Konjic."

25 Now, you know, don't you, that Konjic is near Mostar completely

Page 13589

1 across the country?

2 A. I don't remember its exact location but I will take your word for

3 it.

4 Q. The thing that baffles me, and I don't know if you have an answer,

5 you probably don't but you might, as to how it could be that Muslims in

6 Konjic would house and treat prisoners in almost exactly the same fashion

7 as Serbs in Manjaca would. It's almost like there was an agreement

8 between them as to how to go about this.

9 Do you know if that was some previous existing culture or what?

10 A. I don't know, if I answered that I think I would be speculating.

11 Q. Yes. It is a bit curious, though, isn't it?

12 A. Again, if I answered that, I think I might be straying towards

13 speculation.

14 Q. Okay. I won't make you --

15 A. Sorry, I thought that was a rhetorical question.

16 Q. All right. I'm going to talk to you now about various parts of

17 your testimony in the Stakic case, and I think that's something else

18 you've had an opportunity to review before coming in here today, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At page 6.111 you talked about time you spent in Derventa, and you

21 said that when you were there, the town divided itself into an area

22 controlled by a Muslim and Croat coalition, and an area controlled by

23 Bosnian-Serb groupings. Can you tell us when it was that you made that

24 observation, approximately?

25 A. Would it be possible for me to see a copy of the transcript while

Page 13590

1 answering?

2 Q. The answer is yes.

3 A. Thank you.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: It's the 18th July, second day, but he'll probably

5 want to refer to both days as we go through this.

6 A. Would you guide me to the page, please?

7 Q. Work your way -- it's the second day, 18 July, page 6.111. And

8 don't bother with the fact that it says "not official, not corrected."

9 There has never been an official corrected transcript in the history of

10 this Tribunal. So it's the best we get. Okay?

11 Did you find that page already?

12 A. Yes, I have the page.

13 Q. Okay. I'm just interested in that paragraph that begins at line 3

14 there. That's what I was talking about. My question is: Do you know

15 about when that was?

16 A. For exact dates I'd need to refer to reports, but having seen the

17 reports last night, it's in the second half of April.

18 Q. Sometime in -- the best I can -- all I'm really looking for is

19 kind of an April 1992 --

20 A. It's in the second half of April, as far as I'm aware.

21 Q. Okay. Did you get any sense of the state of equipment that the

22 Muslim-Croat coalition had at their disposal? How were they equipped? If

23 you recall.

24 A. I don't remember seeing any equipment other than small arms, but

25 we did not make an attempt to investigate equipment on either side.

Page 13591

1 Q. Okay. The next portion of the transcript I want to discuss with

2 you is just a couple of pages 6.114 starting at line 24 and then going

3 from there. My question is: You did suspect, did you not, that Croatian

4 military authorities were providing arms to Muslims to fight against the

5 Serbs?

6 And what you said on page 6.115 was this: "We were never able to

7 verify arms supplies by anyone, as far as I recall, within the ECMM. We

8 had a strong suspicion that Croatia was supplying arms at least to the

9 Bosnian-Croat forces, regular or irregular, and since the Muslims and

10 Croats were cooperating in Derventa, at least, and elsewhere, as we've

11 already mentioned, we suspected that arms might be reaching the Muslim

12 side as well from Croatia." Correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. You need to also be given the statement that you gave to the

15 Office of the Prosecutor in March of the year 2000, because I will refer

16 to parts of that also. Keep the transcript there with you, because we'll

17 be going back to it frequently. Your statement on page 2, the third

18 actual paragraph of your statement, near the end, you say that, "During

19 March, I also spent about ten days -- and this would be March, 1992 -- as

20 a member of the team monitoring the cease-fire line in the area of Pakrac

21 and Lipik in Croatia. I was then operating on the Croatian side of the

22 line."

23 Tell the Judges, first of all, just sort of roughly where Pakrac

24 and Lipik are located with reference to the Bosnian Krajina and the area

25 we are primarily talking about.

Page 13592

1 A. They are in Croatia, to the north.

2 Q. They would be north of, like, Prijedor and that area, just across

3 the Sana River -- the Sava River?

4 A. If you want me to be precise, I'll need to look at a map, and that

5 will tell us. But it's north of the Banja Luka and Prijedor area in

6 general.

7 Q. And do you know how close to the Sava River?

8 A. I'm not going to guess about a matter of fact, which will be a

9 number of kilometres.

10 Q. The question that I want to ask you about that: Could you

11 describe the forces that the Croats were able to deploy in that area?

12 What forces did you see? Did you see artillery? Did you see tanks? That

13 sort of thing.

14 A. In the area of Pakrac and Lipik?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I don't remember in detail what we saw mostly was infantry units

17 dug in on front lines. I do remember seeing mortars dug in in mortar

18 emplacements at one point. I do not remember whether I saw artillery or

19 tanks. We were, of course, aware of the effects of artillery and

20 witnessed -- examined splash marks from artillery freshly fired.

21 Q. So whether you saw it or not, you knew that it was available to

22 those forces?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to go now to the various meetings you had with "Leaders."

25 I think in Banja Luka, and Prijedor, and Derventa, you had meetings with

Page 13593

1 what you described as the leadership of each of the principal groups, that

2 being your words, the SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ. If that's not correct,

3 you can correct me, but my question really is: Could you describe to the

4 courts the purpose of those meetings? Why were you meeting with these

5 leaders?

6 A. We were meeting with them to understand the point of view of the

7 leaderships of all three main sides in the conflict. In order to attempt

8 to report accurately and then to influence the situation towards calming

9 down tension, we needed to have as clear a view as possible of the

10 positions of the leaders, and then to discuss with them ways of calming

11 down the situation.

12 Q. And one of the things you have said about these leaders, that's

13 page 3 of your statement, paragraph beginning, "From our visits," you said

14 that the leaders of the three groups often seemed to be drawn from the

15 hard-core element in their respective communities. Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And at no time during any of those meetings did you ever meet with

18 Radoslav Brdjanin, did you?

19 A. I don't remember whether or not I met with him.

20 Q. If you look at the very end of your statement, page 6, what you

21 said there was, "As far as I am aware, I have never met General Talic nor

22 Radoslav Brdjanin."

23 A. That is another way of saying the same thing.

24 Q. Yes. Back to your transcript now, and we are at page 6.043, so we

25 are close to the beginning in the first day. At line 12, there is

Page 13594

1 described a meeting that's actually contained in the question. Meeting

2 with Mr. Radic, that would be Predrag Radic; Mr. Zupljanin, Stojan

3 Zupljanin; and the Banja Luka -- who you called the Banja Luka chief of

4 police; and a representative of the army, Colonel Vukelic.

5 Do you recall the meeting with those three persons?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So there was a representative there from the civilian authorities,

8 the police, and the military?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that meeting was 23 August, 1992, wasn't it?

11 A. If the report says so.

12 Q. That's what it says. If you want to look at it, you can, but I

13 can tell you that's what it says. Now, didn't you know at that time and

14 all the time that Stojan Zupljanin was not just the chief of police in

15 Banja Luka, that he was a regional -- head of a regional police called the

16 CSB, that covered a fairly wide area, not the same as that of ARK but a

17 fairly wide area of the Krajina, covering police stations in many of the

18 municipalities? You knew that, didn't you?

19 A. I don't remember at this stage what details I knew about his area

20 of command.

21 Q. You certainly knew that Colonel Vukelic came from the 1st Krajina

22 Corps, which had an area of responsibility well beyond the borders of

23 Banja Luka municipality?

24 A. I knew that he came from the 5th Krajina Corps, and I imagine that

25 I knew roughly the boundaries of that corps. You must realise that at

Page 13595

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13596

1 this distance, for really hard fact on some of these details, I have to

2 rely on the reports.

3 Q. By -- of course by August of 1992, it was no longer the 5th Corps

4 but the 1st Krajina Corps. Do you recall that?

5 A. I don't recall that.

6 Q. And in a meeting -- in this meeting -- in a meeting of this

7 nature, you were certainly discussing issues that went beyond the

8 boundaries of Banja Luka municipality, weren't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you ever meet with Vojo Kupresanin?

11 A. I can't now remember whether I did or didn't.

12 Q. Going to page 6.169 now. In all these meetings that you had with

13 Serb leaders in Prijedor, Banja Luka, and Derventa, it never became clear

14 to you, did it, that there was, and that they had, an unanimous, single

15 political vision?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And that's what you said in the Stakic case there on page 6.169.

18 You noticed there were disagreements amongst them as to their aims, didn't

19 you?

20 A. I don't remember if I noticed that or whether that was our

21 impression from our general experience with the area. Is there a

22 particular line you want me to look at?

23 Q. Well, line 5 says, and maybe you meant something different than

24 what I just said. "And there will have been disagreements among the

25 authorities as to their aims."

Page 13597

1 A. Yes. I stand by that. It is a reasonable deduction from our

2 experience of the area.

3 Q. Would you agree with me, I think that if it had been a unified aim

4 of the Serb authorities to massacre the people who were confined in

5 Manjaca and Omarska and Keraterm and Trnopolje n May, June, July of 1992,

6 that there was absolutely nothing to keep them from doing so? They had

7 the guns and the bullets and could have done it. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Back now to your statement, we will talk a little bit about Banja

10 Luka.

11 During that period of April and early May, when you were actually

12 in Banja Luka, you never heard, did you, of a Crisis Staff or a War

13 Presidency?

14 A. I don't think so.

15 Q. In fact, throughout 1992, no matter where you were, you never

16 heard of an ARK Crisis Staff, did you?

17 A. I can't now remember if I did or didn't.

18 Q. During this time, in April and early May, there was, in Banja

19 Luka, almost no damage of property or other large-scale violence in Banja

20 Luka or its immediate vicinity?

21 A. As far as I remember, no.

22 Q. It was not a city at that time, was it, that could be described as

23 a ghetto for non-Serbs?

24 A. Well, I certainly didn't describe it as that. Whether someone

25 else could describe it as that is a matter of opinion.

Page 13598

1 Q. Would you look at DB129, please. Now, Exhibit DB129 is a document

2 that was authored by you and a person named Veldman or Veldman dated 16

3 September, 1992. Am I correct about that?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And this is a document where you and Mr. Veldman were trying to

6 make the case for an ECMM return to Northern Bosnia, apparently an updated

7 version of the effort to make that case. Correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. If you look at page 3, under heading, "The delays so far," you

10 say, "In the view of all the monitors who were with drawn from Banja Luka,

11 it was always sufficiently safe for the ECMM to remain in Banja Luka

12 itself." Correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. That implies that you had polled the views of all the people that

15 had been monitors there with regard to their feelings in that regard, and

16 that it was unanimous that they all felt that it would have been

17 sufficiently safe to have remained in Banja Luka throughout the period

18 from May through September when you were authoring this document?

19 A. Yes, with the rider that, of course, the monitors had not been in

20 Banja Luka after the evacuation, and so our knowledge was limited, but as

21 far as our knowledge went, that was our unanimous view.

22 Q. You certainly would not have been recommending a state of affairs

23 that would have put the monitors in a very serious physical threat, would

24 you?

25 A. No.

Page 13599

1 Q. During the time that you were actually in Banja Luka, and dealing

2 with various politicians in that area, it appeared to you, did it not,

3 that Predrag Radic was one of the leading politicians in the area?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in your meetings with him, he spoke frequently, in fact almost

6 invariably, of issues that transcended, went way beyond the Banja Luka

7 municipality. Correct?

8 A. For the exact details, please refer to the reports, but we did

9 discuss the position of the entire Bosnian-Serb community within Bosnia

10 and other more wide matters, much more wide-ranging than the Banja Luka

11 municipality.

12 Q. And he provided assistance to you that also went beyond the

13 confines of that municipality?

14 A. As far as I recall, it was he who provided assistance such as

15 interpreters and police escorts, even when we were operating outside the

16 municipality.

17 Q. And you said that you were in touch with his office like every two

18 or three days while you were there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You had a meeting with him on 13 April, 1992, where he went way

21 beyond the confines of the Banja Luka municipality and went into a very

22 detailed discussion about his concept of the Serbian Republic of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the -- how -- what it would consist of, where the

24 capital would be, very detailed kind of discussion about that, didn't he?

25 A. For the date, I'll refer to the report but I remember the meeting,

Page 13600

1 and we did have a very detailed discussion about future political

2 arrangements within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think it might -- since we have

4 brought it up, it might be wise to turn this into an exhibit so it would

5 become --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You're free to do so, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: It would become DB130.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry.

10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, what are we talking about

11 now?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: It's a document dated 13 April, 1992.

13 MS. KORNER: I know, but I'd rather it didn't become a Defence

14 Exhibit, Your Honour, because it's in the Stakic --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's already in the Stakic --

16 MS. KORNER: So it's all going to be given Prosecution numbers.

17 All of this -- all these reports were dealt with in the Stakic.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we determine now what its Prosecution number

19 will be, so that --

20 MS. KORNER: It will be the next one up, yes.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: What would that number be?

22 MS. KORNER: I don't know where we've got to.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: P1617/214.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you happy with that, Mr. Ackerman?

Page 13601

1 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm very happy with that, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So there will not be a DB130, just for the record.

3 Now, I know there won't be, but just for the record I'm making it clear.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: There will be some day but not today.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes, not today.

6 MR. ACKERMAN:

7 Q. You want to go back now to your statement again and we are now up

8 to page 5. And on that page, you're talking about your visit to Manjaca.

9 And during that visit, you of course had occasion to visit with the camp

10 authorities, and one of the things you say about that was, this is in

11 paragraph 3, "They expressed their gratitude to the ICRC for having

12 provided food for the camp." They took it away from you, did they?

13 A. I have it now.

14 Q. Did they take the transcript away from you yet or do you still

15 have that? Don't let them have that. If they try to take it away, tell

16 them no. It just wastes time. Keep your statement too.

17 You say, "They expressed their gratitude to the ICRC for having

18 provided food for the camp." You see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the time, did you believe that was genuine, that gratitude that

21 they expressed?

22 A. I really can't remember.

23 Q. Second, "They explained that previously they had been unable to

24 provide enough food for prisoners from their own resources." Did you

25 believe that to be a genuine expression?

Page 13602

1 A. I think I believed that in a difficult situation, authorities in

2 that position have to make choices, when there are not enough resources

3 for all needs. So it was a question of priorities for them rather than

4 absolute inability to find enough food for the prisoners. Sorry, excuse

5 me, I have more to say on this.

6 I believed that food was limited, and I did not know what penalty

7 it would cause to other people who needed food to bring food to the

8 prisoners.

9 Q. I now want to go to -- back to P1617, and I assume they took that

10 away from you too. And we are going to look at, this time, at page 9 of

11 that document. With regard to the status of the people that you found

12 confined there, what this report says was that "Serb authorities also

13 insisted that they had the right to hold individuals taken in the area of

14 the conflict."

15 Did you hear that expression that they believed they had that

16 right?

17 A. I'm sorry, I'm not on the right line.

18 Q. Page 9, right at the very top, "Serb authorities also insisted."

19 A. I don't remember the precise wordings used, but I accept this as

20 an accurate record of the meeting.

21 Q. Do you recall if it was the theory that these people had either

22 been combatants who had disposed of their arms or were trying to become

23 combatants by acquiring arms, and therefore being in the area of the

24 conflict they could be detained?

25 A. Would you please restate that question?

Page 13603

1 Q. Yeah. Was the theory behind that, was it your understanding of

2 the theory behind that statement was that these people had either been

3 combatants who had disposed of their arms or were trying to become

4 combatants by acquiring arms at the time they were captured?

5 A. My recollection is that we were simply told that these were people

6 taken in combat zones, and it was not made explicit whether they were

7 doing as you have just described or whether they were simply civilians who

8 were not alleged to have any intention or role in the conflict but who

9 were simply in combat zones. I remember that phrase, "Arrested in combat

10 zones," was the phrase used.

11 Q. Now, in spite of that status that they might have held at that

12 point, they were still permitted visits from the ICRC, weren't they?

13 A. Yes. I think for a fairly short period before our visit, but I

14 cannot remember with certainty whether it is it for two or three weeks

15 that the ICRC had been bringing food or whether it was for two or three

16 weeks only that they had been permitted to visit at all.

17 Q. Isn't this claim that they had the right to hold individuals taken

18 in the area of combat, area of the conflict, without further explanation

19 similar to that being put forward by the United States now with regard to

20 prisoners being held at Guantanamo from the Afghan campaign?

21 A. Is the Court content for me to comment on United States'

22 justification for its conduct?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to allow this question to be

24 answered. Mr. Ackerman, please, next question.

25 MR. ACKERMAN:

Page 13604

1 Q. Page 6.072 of the Stakic transcript now, sir?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. [Microphone not activated] Transcript, okay.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

4 MR. ACKERMAN:

5 Q. In your visit to Manjaca, you not only observed the prisoners who

6 were there, sir, but you spoke to several of them for, I think you would

7 say, fleeting moments privately, didn't you?

8 A. I think for about 30 seconds or so for each person before a guard

9 would approach.

10 Q. In the Stakic case, Ms. Korner asked you, and she asked a similar

11 question today, the following: "Would you agree that you saw very few

12 people who actually appeared to have taken part in an active part in the

13 fighting?" And you answered, "Yes, that was our impression."

14 My question is: How can you tell by someone's appearance whether

15 or not they have taken an active part in fighting?

16 A. I didn't say that I can tell by someone's appearance. But I used

17 to be an army officer, I recognise soldiers, and so that gives me some

18 ability to know whether I'm dealing with a soldier, but of course that

19 only goes so far. The principal reason for that being our impression was

20 the manner in which people responded to our questions and the things that

21 they said and the way that that corresponded with my conversations with

22 many civilians over a number of -- over a -- the period of time that I had

23 been active in Northern Bosnia and in the wider region.

24 Q. But Ms. Korner's question had to do with the appearance. The

25 question specifically said, "You saw very few people who actually appeared

Page 13605

1 to have taken part." And you indicated that that was your impression.

2 I'm going to stop there. Isn't it the case that all you really knew about

3 that was that the prisoners themselves told you they had not taken an

4 active part in the fighting? Objectively, that's all you really knew?

5 A. I would want to pick up this point about appearance. The phrase

6 "appear to" in the way that I use English, perhaps it's our different

7 languages -- can mean physical appearance or it can mean seem to. And it

8 is in that sense that I took the question from Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: And I was about to rise to my feet and say that is

10 how I speak English as well. "Appears" does not mean appearances.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I take back what I said

12 in the beginning, Mr. Ackerman.

13 THE WITNESS: I think it was Oscar Wilde who said we are two great

14 nations separated by a common language.

15 MR. ACKERMAN:

16 Q. That's right.

17 A. But to take your question, whether objectively, that is all I

18 really know, it depends on your definition of "objective." That is all I

19 could report as hard fact. However, it's for the Court to decide whether

20 the impression of someone who has relevant experience is objective or can

21 be taken into account as objective or not.

22 Q. Well, let me ask you this about them: Do you think that those

23 people confined in Manjaca knew that if they had not been active

24 combatants, then they could not be held as POWs and perhaps telling you

25 that they had not been fighters would encourage you to help them get

Page 13606

1 released? That's possible, isn't it?

2 A. That is possible.

3 Q. And you've said on more than one occasion that one of your

4 problems there was trying to distinguish between truth and lies?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And one of the ways that you might distinguish between whether

7 what somebody tells you is a truth or a lie is to look for what kind of

8 motive they might have to tell you what it was they told you, and if they

9 knew about the rules, then saying to you, "I wasn't a fighter, I shouldn't

10 be here, please get me out," could very well be an untruth but seeking to

11 have them relieved of their current situation. Right?

12 A. That's correct, but because we had developed some experience,

13 albeit not infallible by any means, in distinguishing when we were being

14 lied to, that was one of the factors we took into account when making up

15 our minds as to what our impression, considering all the factors, was.

16 Q. The people you saw were virtually all of military age, certainly

17 could have been combatants?

18 A. As far as I recall, they were mostly of military age.

19 Q. And I don't know if you know the way the system worked in former

20 Yugoslavia, but those of military age would -- large numbers of them at

21 least, would likely have to do compulsory military service with the JNA at

22 some time in their early lives. Did you know that?

23 A. I don't remember the details, but I would have known that at the

24 time.

25 Q. And so, it's very likely you were looking at people who had in

Page 13607

1 fact had military training, who in fact were soldiers, who had spent time

2 in the JNA and were then parts of territorial units or something like

3 that, kind of as a reserve force?

4 A. At this stage, I can't remember. But I would have taken into

5 account what I knew of these matters at the time.

6 Q. They certainly could have -- I mean the fact that they didn't have

7 uniforms is totally insignificant. They could have operated as guerrilla

8 fighters, blending in as civilians when necessary and fighting in civilian

9 clothes when the opportunity arose, couldn't they?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And whether or not they were wearing uniforms when they were

12 captured tells you absolutely nothing about whether they were combatants

13 or not. Correct?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer that question, because it's -- it's

15 just not going to change anything, Mr. Ackerman. What he thinks about it,

16 what we will decide eventually, and we have to know who we are talking

17 about because it varies from individual to individual.

18 MR. ACKERMAN:

19 Q. In fact, if you look at page 6.076 of the transcript, sir, at line

20 21, you were even told by Serb authorities in Prijedor that they were

21 facing a group of Muslim extremists fighting a guerrilla campaign against

22 them, didn't they?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if someone is going -- realises they are going to be captured,

25 a fairly wise thing to do is try to get rid of your weapon and claim that

Page 13608

1 you weren't involved in the fighting?

2 A. Your Honour, in the last trial, I got into trouble because I

3 answered questions that were later -- that were then construed as offering

4 an opinion. And I'd just like to check with you whether if I answer that

5 question, it would be construed as opinion and therefore not legitimate,

6 or whether it's a legitimate question for me to answer.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't answer the question.

8 Mr. Ackerman, next question.

9 MR. ACKERMAN:

10 Q. You even said, didn't you, in your testimony, page 6.075,

11 referring to people that you saw in Manjaca, a proportion of them - you

12 qualified that with a minority - based on what you saw of them, would have

13 felt quite ready to pick up a weapon if available and either defend

14 themselves or take part in offensive operations. Correct?

15 A. Would you please refer me to the line?

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. It's 6.075.

18 MS. KORNER: I think -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think you need

19 to go back to make sense of this to look at 6.074, Your Honour.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: It begins on line 25 on 6.074 and continues over.

21 MS. KORNER: But you need to look at it in the context of the

22 question asked.

23 MR. ACKERMAN:

24 Q. It's correct that you said what I quoted there, isn't it?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 13609

1 Q. All right. While you were at Manjaca -- actually that's not the

2 true question. Let me -- because this wasn't while you were at Manjaca.

3 You were at Manjaca when?

4 A. In late August.

5 Q. Then it was when you were there?

6 A. Or may have spilled over into early September.

7 Q. While you were there, you learned that a nutritionist had been

8 provided to the camp and would remain there for at least ten days, maybe

9 more, to improve and monitor the quality of the meals being provided,

10 didn't you?

11 A. I remember all of that except for the ten days. I don't know the

12 exact time period but I know that it was for some time going forward.

13 Q. I'm going to refer now to some parts of Exhibit P1616. First of

14 all, the first part of that report, this is a report that you authored

15 yourself. The first part of that report deals with Manjaca, and in the

16 second paragraph, regarding Manjaca, the last sentence, you speak about

17 having spoken with various of these prisoners, you say this: "In

18 consequence all to whom we spoke wished to leave Serb-held Bosnia and

19 rejoin their families anywhere else." Correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Then you go to page 2 and it deals with Trnopolje. And you say

22 that the centre is run by the local Red Cross and has no visible internal

23 discipline. Yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Page 6.159 in your testimony in Stakic, you are talking about your

Page 13610

1 visit to Trnopolje and in line 12 you say this: "We noticed that the

2 barbed wire fence had been recently removed from Trnopolje." Now, I know

3 there is an explanation for that but the thing that came to my mind when I

4 saw that was how can you tell by looking at a place that there had been a

5 barbed wire fence there that had recently been removed?

6 A. I recall fence posts still being in place, and you can tell if a

7 wire has recently been cut. I do not remember the exacts detail, but I

8 think that it was a case of fence posts with pieces of wire still on them,

9 but the main part of the wire removed.

10 Q. Well, if the wire was still on them, you would have been able to

11 tell whether it was barbed wire or not, wouldn't you?

12 A. If there was enough of it.

13 Q. Where did you -- where did you get this idea in that answer you

14 gave in Stakic that the wire was barbed wire?

15 A. On reflection, I think I got it from the CSCE mission report,

16 which I think I'm right in saying mentions barbed wire. And the other

17 reason would be that it would be unusual for a prison camp not to have

18 barbed wire because it will not prevent escape. I'm not aware of a prison

19 in similar circumstances without barbed wire.

20 Q. Do you still have the mission report?

21 A. It's being brought to me.

22 Q. Look at page 47. Under the heading, "Facility," I think you'll

23 agree with me it does not say "barbed wire," it just says "fencing"?

24 A. That's correct. It may be that my memory of this report is

25 faulty, but I think I remember that in some part of it, it refers to

Page 13611

1 barbed wire. But as I made clear in my earlier reply, it's what I think I

2 remember. It's not an absolute claim to certainty.

3 Q. Do you have any impression that the entire Trnopolje complex was

4 at one point surrounded by barbed wire?

5 A. My impression at the time was that it had been completely

6 surrounded by barbed wire and that that had recently been removed. That

7 is clear.

8 Q. Do you leave room in your mind for the possibility that you're

9 incorrect about that?

10 A. By using the word "impression at the time," I leave room for that

11 possibility.

12 Q. We've heard earlier in this case about how the people in Trnopolje

13 had to live outside night and day. It's your view, is it not, that it was

14 to their advantage to live outside and would continue to be until the

15 weather became cold in the winter?

16 A. Did I say that in a statement?

17 Q. 6.092, Stakic transcript. Also in a statement.

18 A. I recall something about this, but...

19 Q. I think if you look at 6.092, line -- starting with line 2, what's

20 actually being done there is a quote from something that you yourself had

21 written.

22 A. I think it is a quote from the CSCE mission report.

23 Q. You could be right about that. In any event, do you agree with

24 that proposition? Rather than trying to find out where it came from.

25 A. In general, it is better if people are housed in buildings. We

Page 13612

1 all know that. I think what the mission report was trying to say is that

2 under the circumstances, being in the open air had some benefits as well

3 as some obvious disadvantages, in terms of protection against the

4 weather. And I again -- remembering my previous experience, I think it is

5 probably not for me to say what they thought the benefits were, but fresh

6 air speaks for itself.

7 Q. Do you still have the report in front of you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Page 10, Ms. Korner read the first half of the paragraph beginning

10 with, "Local authorities." It goes on to say this: "At the same time, we

11 cannot allow them to close their camps and push the unfortunate inmates

12 into the danger-ridden regions where social predators remain at large."

13 You remember reading that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That was a real situation, wasn't it, and a real concern?

16 A. You mean a specific part of this?

17 Q. That, what I just said about ECMM had a concern about if the camps

18 were closed and the inmates were just put out, outside the gate, that they

19 would be prey to what they call the social predators who remain at large?

20 A. It was the CSCE mission that had that concern but yes, it was

21 their real concern.

22 Q. Okay. 6.024 of Stakic is where we go now. That part in your

23 testimony in Stakic, you were speaking of your mission, as you arrived in

24 Bosnia. You said you first were trying to understand a complex and

25 changing situation. And one of the things that you decided would be

Page 13613

1 beneficial was to try to verify rumours that would circulate regarding

2 atrocities. Correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And that was because these stories of atrocities, these rumours of

5 atrocities, would get people stirred up, get people angry, and cause them

6 to want to seek revenge?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And you hoped that by, as quickly as possible, discovering the

9 truth regarding these rumours, that in some instances, at least, by making

10 the actual truth known, that you could calm the situation and avoid the

11 inevitable consequence?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you described this business of false rumours as a very major

14 and important feature of the situation as you found it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You gave an example of a rumour, just a hypothetical, a rumour

17 comes into a village that two Serbs have been killed by Croats. You say,

18 "The Serb community would get furious and frightened, the rumour would go

19 around, and quite often they would then organise some sort of retaliation

20 in their town against the Croat community." When you say "they would then

21 organise," and that's 6.025, line 6, some sort of retaliation, when you

22 say, "They would then organise," that could simply be anything from the

23 authorities of the town to a group of concerned citizens, couldn't it?

24 A. Yes, or other groupings.

25 Q. Yes. As you said, in Stakic, it's perfectly possible that there

Page 13614

1 were a number of isolated incidents of atrocities which realistically the

2 authorities could do little or nothing about? You'll find that at 6.081,

3 if you want to check it.

4 A. I remember that and I agree.

5 Q. And I think you'll agree that in many cases of these kinds of

6 incidents, it could be extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, to

7 ever even identify the persons involved in that?

8 A. I've no objection to answering that question, but again my -- I

9 wonder if that's in danger of me straying into expressing an opinion or --

10 Q. Well, I think the --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: In this case, I would invite you to answer the

12 question, because it's partly, if not mainly based on your personal

13 knowledge of the circumstances and the environment at the time. So what

14 you're being asked to give us information about is quite legitimate.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. The answer is yes.

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. And revenge -- in these instances, as hard as you all were trying,

18 revenge could actually have been taken before the situation, before you

19 would ever have a chance to come, try to calm the situation by ferreting

20 out the truth?

21 A. That is quite true.

22 Q. And many of the rumours that were circulating around were just

23 never checked out by you or anyone else to your knowledge, were they?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Certainly more of a job than your small team could handle, but you

Page 13615

1 were doing the best you could? That's fair, isn't it?

2 A. That's quite fair.

3 Q. Okay. And I think what one can sort of glean from what you've

4 been saying about this, and what you said about it in your prior

5 testimony, that one of the problems was that people, uncritically, with

6 virtually no scepticism would believe these rumours, and you basically

7 said that on page 6.079, where you said in line 20, "Virtually all stories

8 about atrocities are believed."

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. There seem to be an inability or an unwillingness to question.

11 There was just this immediate tendency to believe the story?

12 A. In general, that was our clear impression and experience, although

13 of course there will be a variety of reactions. And I'm sure there were

14 some people who were not so quick to believe every rumour.

15 Q. And we've talked about how many of these were never able to be

16 followed up or checked out to determine whether or not they were true, and

17 I take it you'd agree that it's likely that some of those rumours which

18 probably weren't true persist even today in the minds of the people who

19 live there?

20 A. I agree that that is likely.

21 Q. You told the Stakic court that most often when you were able to

22 check these rumours, quite often something had been done but on a much

23 smaller scale, that you would report back, and when you reported back the

24 truth, that that frequently had a calming effect on the situation, didn't

25 it?

Page 13616

1 A. Would you please refer me to the line.

2 Q. I hope I can. It's probably 6.079.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Anyway, let's not waste time on this,

4 Mr. Ackerman. Just put the question as direct as you would like to,

5 without referring to what he had stated to the Stakic court.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I mean --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the position would, I assume, remain the

8 same for him, and he would be able to give us an answer.

9 MR. ACKERMAN:

10 Q. And I think you can give an answer without me asking a further

11 question, can't you?

12 A. It's just that word "frequently" that made me look for the line.

13 We did sometimes have a calming effect, but of course we were very

14 conscious that it wasn't anything like frequently enough.

15 Q. But it's while you were doing what you were doing that you could

16 have this calming effect and avoid a retaliation?

17 MS. KORNER: It's 6.024.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

19 MR. ACKERMAN:

20 Q. Correct?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Ms. Korner. I appreciate that.

22 A. The answer to your question is yes.

23 MR. ACKERMAN:

24 Q. At page 6.026, you, in the Stakic court told about a situation

25 that occurred in Derventa, a place where the front lines basically went

Page 13617

1 through the middle of the town. You had spoken to a Serb military

2 commander who told you he had reliable information that 400 Serbs were

3 being held in a basement in Derventa and forced to give blood for wounded

4 Muslim forces, and that he was ready to use all means at his disposal to

5 launch an attack to stop this atrocity. You remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then you said that you went to that basement, you checked it

8 out, that you found eight Serb prisoners, none of them giving blood, you

9 reported this back to the commander. He accepted your word about that and

10 did not launch the threatened attack.

11 A. Yes. It was my colleagues who did the verifying, but I was

12 involved in the discussion with the commander.

13 Q. Okay. You've been asked about this previously. It's in the CSCE

14 mission report, page 4. It's in the background part of that report, where

15 it's written, "This is not an impersonal war. It is a civil war between

16 communities for territorial expansion and ethnic supremacy. The first

17 casualty has been good neighborliness and compassion, the second, truth."

18 And you've indicated previously that you agree with that statement.

19 A. I think it's well put.

20 Q. And truth was a casualty because, as the report later says on page

21 5, facts and truth have become enmeshed in partisan distortion, and says,

22 "This is possibly an unduly gentle way of expressing the reality."

23 You agree with that?

24 A. I agree with that.

25 Q. Lord Owen spoke in the introduction to his book and you've

Page 13618

1 probably read it, he said, "Never before in over 30 years in public life,"

2 speaking of his experiences in Bosnia, "Never before in over 30 years in

3 public life have I had to operate in such a climate of dishonour,

4 propaganda, and dissembling. Many of the people with whom I have had to

5 deal in the former Yugoslavia were literally strangers to the truth."

6 That pretty much matches your experience, doesn't it?

7 A. It matches much of my experience there.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you so much for your precise and concise

9 answers. That's a rare event in this Court, and we have finished in good

10 time. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

12 Ms. Korner, do you have re-examination.

13 MS. KORNER: Just one question, Your Honour, and it goes back to

14 the document DB129.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hmm.

16 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:

17 Q. Mr. Mayhew, I don't know if you've still got that?

18 A. Nor do I.

19 Q. It's your report of the 16th of September. As has already been

20 pointed out, you were writing that with a view to persuading ECMM to

21 return to Northern Bosnia. Had you spoken to a number of people before

22 writing this report?

23 A. Very likely. I was in the headquarters of the ECMM and speaking

24 to some of my colleagues every day.

25 Q. Can we look at what you said about the minorities view from Banja

Page 13619

1 Luka? It's paragraph 9.

2 A. Can I read it here?

3 Q. I don't think it needs to go on the ELMO. "Both the Catholic

4 bishop and the Muslim mufti said that for their people the situation had

5 worsened sharply after ECMM's departure at the end of April."

6 Is that the Catholic bishop and the Muslim mufti in Banja Luka

7 that you're talking about?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. "They were extremely keen to see us return permanently. Large

10 tracts of land not far from Banja Luka and also further afield have been

11 dramatically ethnically cleansed since April."

12 Was that what they -- was that what they said to you or what you

13 were able to observe yourself from what you can remember?

14 A. It's not exactly 100 per cent clear from this text, that's no

15 doubt why you're asking the question. I cannot now remember whether the

16 bishop and the mufti told us that. So it is possible that either they

17 told us that or -- which would not be surprising, or we had that from the

18 many other sources that were reporting similar things at the time, or

19 both.

20 Q. All right. The process reportedly still continues with

21 considerable momentum. Religious leaders meet the authorities regularly

22 but elected minority political leaders say they may not. Again,

23 Mr. Mayhew, it may not be the clearest sentence, with the greatest of

24 respect. What was actually being said there?

25 A. Well, religious leaders meet the authorities regularly, that's

Page 13620

1 clear, but elected minority political leaders say -- and I don't remember

2 whether this was directly to us, or were reported to have said, reported

3 perhaps by those religious leaders, that they are not allowed -- they were

4 at that stage not able to, not permitted to, meet the authorities.

5 Q. I see. All right. Yes. And I think that's -- well, perhaps you

6 could just read the last paragraph, please, paragraph 16. "The need for

7 urgency. It is a straightforward if emotive fact that every day more

8 people are killed on the front lines, more are evicted from their homes,

9 more homes are destroyed, and winter moves closer. No other organisation

10 is currently as well placed as the ECMM to report on and tackle these

11 problems at their roots."

12 Did you -- did in fact ECMM return to Northern Bosnia after this?

13 A. Not in any -- not with any permanently deployed mission for the

14 remainder of my time, which was up until I think March of 1993. We may

15 have had some few day missions or very short little missions in.

16 Q. Yes.

17 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Mr. Mayhew, that's all that I

18 ask.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

20 There are no questions from the bench, and that means that your

21 testimony comes to an end here.

22 I should like to take this opportunity to thank you on behalf of

23 the Tribunal for having come again this time in a different case to give

24 evidence. And I need barely tell you that you will receive all the

25 assistance that you require to enable you to return wherever would you

Page 13621

1 like to go to.

2 Thank you, and the usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Ms. Korner, just the confusion is mine not

6 anybody else's. Next witness is 7.110. 7.210?

7 MS. KORNER: The next one is 7.210.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Just out of precaution, I brought both of them.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 210.

11 MS. KORNER: It's 210.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: This one I think we had agreed we will hear her

13 first in closed session to determine whether it's a case of continuing or

14 not.

15 MS. KORNER: Mr. Nicholls will be calling her, Your Honour. I

16 don't know whether Your Honour wants to --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we will take a break now and when we are

18 about to return, Madam Chuqing, please, just prepare the courtroom

19 straight away so that we will waste as little time as possible. Thank

20 you. We'll have a 25-minute break.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into closed session for a while.

24 Until we decide whether we will continue with closed session or not.

25 [Closed session]

Page 13622

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25 [Open session]

Page 13633

1 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, can I just remind the counsel to switch

2 off the microphone when the witness is answering the question.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: The document can come off the ELMO. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are in open session now.

5 Mr. Nicholls, you may proceed.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

7 Q. I'm now going to ask you some questions about an event that took

8 place in Omarska after you'd been there for some time. At one point, was

9 there a delegation which arrived at -- excuse me, at Omarska camp, that

10 sticks out in your mind?

11 A. [Microphone not activated]

12 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone for the witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness's microphone is switched off.

14 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Can the interpreter go to channel 7? Because we

16 are having voice distortion.

17 THE INTERPRETER: We are ready, yes. We are on channel 7.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if I can be heard now.

19 Yes.

20 THE INTERPRETER: I can hear everything.

21 MR. NICHOLLS:

22 Q. Let me ask the question again. Do you remember a delegation

23 arriving in Omarska camp after you'd been there for some time?

24 A. I remember that delegation very well.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: On channel 8, I am not hearing any distorted. I

Page 13634

1 don't know how it works but I'm hearing the witness's voice first, then

2 somebody else's.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

5 MR. NICHOLLS:

6 Q. I don't expect you to remember the exact date but approximately

7 when did this delegation arrive? What month and if you can tell me, what

8 part of the month?

9 A. I remember it well. It was in the month of July, around the 15th

10 of July, a day before or a day after the 15th. I remember a high-ranking

11 delegation arrived at Omarska, and everything at the camp was arranged to

12 meet the delegation. As far as I can remember, they arrived around noon.

13 I could clearly see the camp commander, Zeljko Meakic, wearing his

14 parade uniform, blue with cap with a fringe, saluting to the high-ranking

15 delegation. And since for the entire duration of that time, I was at the

16 canteen, together with other women, and the restaurant had glass walls, I

17 could clearly see all the members of that delegation. They were Radoslav

18 Brdjanin, Vojo Kupresanin, Radisav Vukic, Stojan Zupljanin, and Momir

19 Talic.

20 On the tarmac outside the canteen, a choir was lined up, made up

21 of inmates, living skeletons, who, while the delegation was passing, sang

22 Chetnik songs such as, "Who is talking, who is lying, that Serbia is

23 small?" And held three raised fingers crying, "Long live Serbia, long

24 live Yugoslavia." And sang other Chetnik songs as well. The song

25 reverberated through the camp. We, the women, were sitting in the canteen

Page 13635

1 and observing all this. The delegation then went upstairs where the

2 personnel of the camp were sitting down. How long they stayed upstairs, I

3 really cannot say now, but they remained there long enough for me to be

4 able to see clearly the persons I have enumerated.

5 In that choir, I saw a lot of --

6 Q. Let me stop you for a second and go back over some of the material

7 you've just talked about. How -- if you can describe -- and I'll show you

8 a diagram in a moment to help you, but how did this delegation arrive?

9 Were they on foot? What kind of vehicles did they arrive in?

10 A. Near the canteen, I saw them coming, escorted by a special unit

11 which was normally not stationed at the camp. There was talk about some

12 sort of special intervention platoon, which came specially for that

13 delegation. They were wearing blue uniforms, to the best of my

14 recollection. I could clearly see an APC.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could show the witness, P1128.4, which is a

16 diagram, if that could be put on the ELMO?

17 Q. And, Witness, if it's easier, you can look at the exhibit to your

18 right, just on the ELMO. That's a photo of a model. If you look at that

19 for a second, can you tell me whether that's a fair and accurate portrayal

20 of Omarska camp as it was in July 1992?

21 A. Yes. For the most part, yes. I can see the canteen here, the

22 rooms upstairs where interrogations of prisoners were conducted, the room

23 where we slept. I can see the "white house." I can see the tarmac.

24 Q. If I could ask you to just make a mark, make an X, on that --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Is the document, the exhibit that she

Page 13636

1 has, already a marked exhibit? Do you have a spare copy that you could

2 give her and she would put the markings on that spare copy?

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. If you prefer, she doesn't need

4 to mark it. I just want it to be very clear to you what her position

5 was. It doesn't necessarily have to be marked.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.

7 MR. NICHOLLS:

8 Q. Now, I don't know if I missed it but would could you just please

9 mark -- just point to where you were when this delegation arrived.

10 A. [Indicates] [Microphone not activated] This is where this --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not receiving any interpretation.

12 [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters may have missed the beginning

14 because the lady was turned away.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Witness, please, could I ask you to start

16 again? Start your answer, your reply, from the very beginning, because

17 the interpreters missed the initial part of it.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. This is the canteen

19 where I was spending time with other women. At the moment when the

20 delegation arrived, I was here, right here. Zeljko Meakic, camp commander

21 was standing here. And this is where he was standing as he was saluting

22 the delegation. And I was here for a while before I walked to the other

23 side of the canteen to observe the choir which was standing here.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think [Microphone not activated] An indication of

25 what she has shown us would be difficult. I think you ought to give her a

Page 13637

1 fresh copy and we ask her to mark on the copy that you will give her,

2 Mr. Nicholls, because otherwise we will get a confusion.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: That's fine, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have another one available?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Usher, please remove the previous one from

7 there. Hand it back to the Registrar. And, Witness, I'm going to ask you

8 again, this time, take a pen, show us with -- and put a number 1.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then, if you go here again --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Put a number 1 against -- okay. That's where you

11 were? Together with --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please mark on that --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several of us standing

15 there.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Please mark with a number 2 where Meakic, according

17 to you, was.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right here.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I take it that you moved to the backside of the

20 canteen, or could you explain your movement in better language? And

21 perhaps draw the position by means of an arrow and a number 3? Did you

22 move alone or together with others?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I walked to the backside alone but

24 there were other women here as well.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And where would that be? Where did you go to?

Page 13638

1 Could you mark it with a number 3, please?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From this side to the opposite side,

3 where there was a table and two chairs, where we women who weren't working

4 that day in the canteen used to sit. It's not very convenient for marking

5 on this particular photo.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I asked to you put an arrow, and then

7 behind the arrow, you put an arrow pointing to where you were, and then

8 behind the arrow put a number 3.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but the arrow must be on the light blue part of

11 the --

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I have another photo which may help to

13 understand that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't understand the difficulty that she is

15 encountering.

16 Now, with your pen, can you point at where you went to? Don't

17 write anything for the time being.

18 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Stop where you went to, the place where you

20 went on your own. There. Okay. Now can you just draw out of that spot

21 into the blue area, a line?

22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, and mark number 3 at the beginning of that

24 line.

25 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

Page 13639

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. More or less we have handled it.

2 Next question.

3 MR. NICHOLLS:

4 Q. You were at position 1. At number 2 is where you saw the

5 greeting. I'm going to ask you: For how long were you observing this

6 delegation when you were at position 1 looking out the window?

7 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly how long it lasted, this salute and

8 greeting of the delegation before they moved on towards the tarmac in

9 order to hear the choir singing. I really can't give you an exact time

10 but it was long enough for me to see what it all looked like. It was ten,

11 maybe 15 minutes. I can't be more exact than this now.

12 Q. Now, when the delegation moved to where you say this was this

13 choir, and I'll ask you to describe that in a minute, were you able to

14 watch them walk from the point you've written as 2 to the other side of

15 the -- around the corner of the building?

16 A. Correct. I was perfectly able to see it, and I saw them coming,

17 and then they turned to face the choir. I had a feeling that they were

18 talking to the inmates in the choir, but the singing was too loud for me

19 to hear the discussion between them.

20 Q. And just to be clear, this entire time, you were inside this

21 building you call the canteen, the restaurant, and you walked inside there

22 just to look out another window as the delegation moved?

23 A. Yes. The canteen was glazed. It had glass windows and walls on

24 all sides. I was inside all the time, and no matter where you are located

25 at the front or at the back, you can see clearly what's going on outdoors

Page 13640

1 at all times.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Mr. Nicholls, we need to stop there because

3 we have already overstepped.

4 Witness, we will continue tomorrow morning.

5 Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman, I told you last week that I was

6 trying to have the sittings of the 3rd -- of the week starting the 3rd of

7 February, to shift it to the morning. That's what's going to happen. We

8 will have five morning sittings. If you have difficulties in your case

9 and you would like any one of those to be sent back to the afternoon,

10 because of what you explained to us as being your difficulty,

11 Mr. Ackerman, then let us know and we'll shift one or more of them to the

12 afternoon.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't think it would require that at

14 all. It might require that we adjust the breaks a little bit so that I

15 can take care of some business I have to do at 11.30. That's the problem.

16 MS. KORNER: Before Your Honour arises, could we have a ruling

17 fairly shortly because of witness organisation, as to whether Your Honour

18 is going to grant Mr. Ackerman's request for the break in February.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't discussed it with the other two judges.

20 MS. KORNER: That's why I'm asking. Your Honour, we need a fairly

21 quick decision.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. We haven't discussed it as yet. I

23 hope to discuss it between today and tomorrow, and we should be able to

24 come back with an answer.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour --

Page 13641

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sorry, Mr. Nicholls?

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour. Just before we break could we

3 have this exhibit, which has now been marked, remarked as 1128.4/1?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that's 1128, okay. Perfect. We are going

5 to leave the courtroom. Madam Chuqing, the necessary precautions before

6 the witness goes out. Thank you.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

8 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

9 the 28th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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