Page 16510
1 Wednesday, 28 May 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
6 please?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav
9 Brdjanin.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.
11 Can you follow in a language that you can understand?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I can
13 follow in a language I understand.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution?
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner assisted by Denise Gustin,
16 case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you both. Appearances for the
18 Defence?
19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honours. David Cunningham
20 with Barbara Baruch, we are assisted by Vesna Anic.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you too. What's the
22 bad news this morning, Ms. Korner.
23 MS. KORNER: It is and it isn't. It is bad news in one sense.
24 The witness -- do Your Honours have the witness list with you?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. One moment, until I dig it up. Yes.
Page 16511
1 MS. KORNER: The witness for this Friday is ill.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: That much we know.
3 MS. KORNER: And unable to travel.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's Witness.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's Witness 7.
7 MS. KORNER: 7.72, I'm told.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the suggestion that we have, and it's
10 really a matter for Your Honours and the Defence, although we wanted to
11 call Mr. Sebire immediately after the Whit holiday because it meant not
12 keeping a witness here very long we can put him in.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.44, you mean.
14 MS. KORNER: No, Nicolas Sebire. Does he have a number? 7.44.
15 We would be able to deal with the exhumations. If Your Honours were
16 content with that and the Defence.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: That would be Friday?
18 MS. KORNER: Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You will bring -- Mr. Sebire has to come from
20 abroad.
21 MS. KORNER: No, he's a member of the OTP.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect. With us, it's perfect. We are here
23 available any way. So -- and if we are dealing with exhumations it
24 shouldn't be a problem with you either, I suppose.
25 MS. BARUCH: I really couldn't -- [Microphone not activated] I
Page 16512
1 must discuss that with Mr. Ackerman. If the Court is confident that it's
2 not going to be a problem, I see no reason why it would be, but I have to
3 discuss it.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, I will give you all the time in the
5 world to do that. So let's do two things in the meantime. First alert
6 Mr. Sebire if he hasn't been alerted already to be prepared just in case.
7 Secondly, I don't have a statement from Nicolas Sebire to my knowledge. I
8 don't know, perhaps Ms. Gustin can check that for us.
9 MS. KORNER: No, you probably don't at this stage because it's a
10 sudden --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't recall having seen anything for him.
12 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour what we will do is try and make
13 arrangements that Your Honours get it today or at the latest tomorrow
14 morning.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, because it will also assist me and my
16 colleague, Judge Janu to decide whether we should put some pressure on
17 Defence or not, because if it's obvious that they need time, they require
18 time, then we will give them time.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what Mr. Sebire has done is -- he's an
20 investigator and he has simply collated all the information that we have
21 received which is still coming in, I may add, it's a never-lending saga.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand.
23 MS. KORNER: The results of exhumations carried out both under the
24 aegis of the Tribunal itself or by the Bosnians and the declarations of
25 death issued by the cantonal courts. Your Honour may remember you had
Page 16513
1 some evidence about that from --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We have had several witnesses giving details,
3 particularly the Judge from Sanski Most.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, exactly. So but Your Honour that's the
5 situation. Your Honour, that's that problem then hopefully dealt with.
6 In respect of next Friday, the witness there cannot attend but we have
7 done a swap with the witness for Friday the 13th. They both come from
8 Bosanska Krupa.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean? You mean that --
10 MS. KORNER: In other words, the witness for the 13th of Friday,
11 I'm sorry, I haven't got the numbers on my form.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: There are -- I suppose it's 7.102?
13 MS. KORNER: Ms. Gustin will confirm that in a moment but it's a
14 direct swap of the two Fridays, the witnesses for the two Fridays.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words the one we should have had this
16 Friday --
17 MS. KORNER: No, no, Friday week, that is, the 6th of June, the
18 one who should have come on the 13th will come on the 6th.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And 7.67 will go to the 13th? And 7.102 will go to
20 the 6th?
21 MS. KORNER: Well, I think the other way around.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It should be like -- 7.67 will be shifted to
23 the 13th? And 7.102 to the 6th.
24 MS. KORNER: Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The only thing I would like you to confirm is that
Page 16514
1 these two numbers are correct, 7.67, 7.102 so that the Defence will know
2 exactly what they should be prepared for.
3 MS. KORNER: Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay? Which witness to cross-examine, in other
5 words.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we will just confirm all that at the
7 break with the Defence and Your Honours.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Also what is important is that all documents that
9 need to be in the hands of the Defence, particularly with regard to 7.102,
10 because we are two weeks afar from that, are in the hands of the Defence
11 by the end of this week already early next week at the latest.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I leave it with you -- I leave that in your hands.
14 Yes?
15 MS. KORNER: And can I before I deal with Mr. Ackerman -- the
16 matters Your Honour has raised yesterday at the end of the day can I just
17 go into private session for one moment?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while.
19 [Private session]
20 (Redacted)
21 (Redacted)
22 (Redacted)
23 (Redacted)
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13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And --
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour raised yesterday Mr. Ackerman's reply to
16 the motion in respect of --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I raised it in order to avoid you having to file a
18 further response to the response. We will deal with it orally and then my
19 legal secretary who is here present should be -- would be in a position to
20 move ahead once I have directed her where to go.
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Your Honour, this is the motion in
22 respect of the Rule 92 witnesses for Teslic.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the documents.
24 MS. KORNER: Yes, I'll come on to the documents. If Your Honours
25 have got it there, paragraph 2 with regard to witnesses, he's made an
Page 16517
1 error in the number it should be 7.148, not 7.48. 7.149 and 7.115. All
2 these witnesses are victims of rape. It was originally intended to call
3 7.115 and have the other two as cumulative of that witness. Because of
4 the indications that we've had from Your Honours that you really would
5 wish us if at all possible to finish the case by the adjournment in
6 August, which is the 1st of August, we took a decision that as there has
7 been no cross-examination at all effectively of any of the people who said
8 that they were the victims of rape, that we would seek to Rule 92 them. I
9 have no idea what Rule 93 bis is because it doesn't exist. And therefore
10 I'm assuming that Mr. Ackerman, it's a typing error again, it should be 92
11 bis and he's saying that although they are not cumulative of a live
12 witness he actually has no objection and in each case we do have the Rule
13 92 attestations. So if that's right, Your Honour, I would invite Your
14 Honour that these may be tendered if Mr. Ackerman has no objection in any
15 event.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: In actual fact, that's what he says also in
17 paragraph 3.
18 MS. KORNER: Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: But I have no authority to speak for him so perhaps
20 you will make a note of it and --
21 MS. BARUCH: I've already discussed it with him and he does not
22 have an objection for it being 92 bis.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So that answers the only
24 problem that I had.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, then the --
Page 16518
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And then the documents.
2 MS. KORNER: The documents. I'm not sure what Your Honour wanted
3 me to deal with.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I mean, I am trying to avoid you having to
5 file a response to this objection, if you can deal with it orally here and
6 now, on your two feet.
7 MS. KORNER: I can. Your Honour, I'm going to say the same thing
8 I have said over and over and over again.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
10 MS. KORNER: This is not -- none of these objections, we suggest,
11 really raise anything -- with one exception. I had a look at the list and
12 I think there is another one of those documents that we can't trace a
13 source for. If Your Honour just waits a moment while I -- in actual fact,
14 funnily enough, it's not one that's objected to by Mr. Ackerman. Your
15 Honour, it's P1738. It's the same source, if you see what I mean, it's
16 the same gentleman who collected the other four documents that were in the
17 Prnjavor binder -- no, Petrovac binder, where we couldn't trace from the
18 documentation where he got them from. Mr. Inayat is still trying to chase
19 it up but it's actually quite difficult because it was so long ago that
20 this gentleman was dealing with matters that in the absence of having
21 documentation to show where it comes from, it's quite difficult but
22 Mr. Inayat is seeing if he can trace it.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
24 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honour, in respect of the other objections,
25 Your Honour, we would invite Your Honour to admit the whole of the Teslic
Page 16519
1 binder of documents, Mr. Ackerman's objections notwithstanding.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mrs. Baruch, we will not hand down a
3 written decision on this. We will just give an oral decision.
4 MS. BARUCH: May I just understand? Because I'm looking at a
5 document that was the objection, there were objections, clear objections,
6 to three documents: P1937, a press report that came off of Croatian
7 Radio; P1940, which although it says it had no signature, there was a
8 signature but there was no stamp, that came from AID; and P1950, again a
9 press report and I believe that's also from Croatian Radio. Those are the
10 three documents I believe that Mr. Ackerman actually objected to, and then
11 asked the Court to examine many of the other documents in depth. That's
12 what we are talking about.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. Now, until now, as of now, I haven't seen
14 actually these three documents that are being objected to. I will see
15 them in the course of the day when they are made available to me.
16 MS. KORNER: Does Your Honour not have the Teslic binder? Because
17 I'm going to be using it.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I think we have the Teslic binder but I haven't
19 had them pulled out and shown to me and this is the problem. Yesterday I
20 was here until 7.30. After the sitting, there was a meeting of Trial
21 Chamber II so there was little time after that to go and examine any
22 documents, Ms. Korner, so after ten hours straight here.
23 I'll see, together with Judge Janu, these three documents and we
24 will reach a decision probably later on today, okay? Okay. Probably
25 later on today. In the meantime Inneke, please, liaise with Rene so that
Page 16520
1 they are on my desk during the first break.
2 So ready?
3 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honours, one last piece of news. I see
4 Mrs. Baruch is --
5 MS. BARUCH: No, no, I'm sorry.
6 MS. KORNER: Mr. Hidic, after he'd finished testifying I spoke to
7 him just to thank him.
8 MS. BARUCH: Excuse me a protected witness? No, sorry.
9 MS. KORNER: I spoke to him just to thank him for coming to the
10 Court. He then informed me that back at his hotel, he had other
11 documents. I then made arrangements for an investigator and an
12 interpreter to go over to the hotel and collect from him any documents
13 that were relevant to any of these matters. Some of them were. Your
14 Honour, I can't say anything other than we are very sorry. We didn't
15 appreciate -- he was asked to bring the documents that you remember we had
16 to get translated overnight, and it may be that we didn't make ourselves
17 clear enough that we didn't just mean the documents that supported his
18 notebook but any other documents that he might have. We have arranged
19 that they will be -- we hope the B/C/S versions will be given, disclosed
20 today. We are making -- we hope so. We just have to get it together. We
21 are trying to make arrangements again for a rather quicker translation
22 than can be done by CLSS so that they will be available at the end of the
23 week because there is another witness from the same municipality,
24 Petrovac, who will be here on Monday. Your Honour, of course, if there
25 are matters that the Defence wish to cross-examine about, then we will
Page 16521
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Page 16522
1 make arrangements if necessary though we hope it won't be necessary
2 because of the expense, for Mr. Hidic to return.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mrs. Baruch? Or Mr. Cunningham?
4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I won't know if there is additional
5 cross-examination required until I see the documents.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The position as I see it from a legal point
7 of view, from a procedural point of view, ought to be the following:
8 First of all, I reserve for the Defence the right, after having perused
9 these documents, to ask for Mr. Hidic to be brought over for any possible
10 cross-examination. And that would also mean that the Prosecution would be
11 entitled to put questions to him as well. In the meantime, however, I
12 would require that simultaneous with the filing of these documents,
13 whoever received them or picked them up from Mr. Hidic, to be brought
14 forward and confirm that on oath.
15 MS. KORNER: He's made a statement, Your Honour. We appreciated
16 what might happen and so the investigator has made a statement as to the
17 events and the documents that he took.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So I have made that clear.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I wasn't proposing to file, unless Your
20 Honour wants it filed. I was proposing to disclose.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Filing is a matter of saying. Before being made use
22 of.
23 MS. KORNER: All right.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Before being tendered in evidence as exhibits,
25 that's important, because, I mean, we need to establish the origin. It's
Page 16523
1 not that I doubt your word. Don't take me -- it's a formality that
2 probably we need to follow.
3 MS. KORNER: I think I did ask that in this case, we keep, just
4 for the time being, the originals which are, I'm told, very similar to the
5 ones he produced himself in court.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, incidentally, Nicolas Sebire on Friday,
7 how long do you expect him to be in the witness stand?
8 MS. KORNER: I don't really know. It depends on how much, A, the
9 Defence want to ask him about his collation of documents, and B, there are
10 a number of schedules that he's going to be producing. I would have
11 thought a bit like Mr. Kaiser, that it should be possible to finish him
12 within the one day but I wouldn't like to bet on that.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have difficulties particularly,
14 Mr. Cunningham and Mrs. Baruch, we are talking of schedules and details
15 which you may not be familiar with and which you need to go through
16 considering that this witness is here available at any time, we could
17 actually do the in-chief on Friday and reserve the cross-examination for
18 you for some later point in time, if you prefer it. If you think you
19 are -- you will be in a position to conclude also with the
20 cross-examination on Friday, then we conclude it on Friday.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we are perfectly content with that
22 because, as I say, we had actually originally arranged for him to testify
23 on the Tuesday after the bank -- the Whitsun holiday, so we could reserve
24 cross-examination for them which would help maybe.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: All we could ask is an opportunity to confer with
Page 16524
1 Mr. Ackerman and report back after the break.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. We are flexible, Mr. Cunningham, so
3 you don't have to worry on that. So shall we bring in the witness?
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, did you get the message that next week
6 we will be working in the morning and not in the afternoon? We have
7 shifted all the sittings from the afternoon to the morning.
8 MS. KORNER: Yes, I didn't, Your Honour, but I imagine so because
9 I know how few cases are going to be sitting next week.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thanks.
11 MS. KORNER: And will it be in this Court?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That much I can't tell you.
13 MS. KORNER: I thought they were finishing --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Simic had the last sitting yesterday, I think. No?
15 In any case, it's an advantage even for Mr. Ackerman himself to sit in the
16 morning rather than stay here until 7.00 in the evening.
17 All right. Witness? Does he enjoy any protective --
18 MS. KORNER: No, he doesn't, Your Honour. Did Your Honour get --
19 I understand that --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The briefing?
21 MS. KORNER: The extra statements --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
23 MS. KORNER: -- simply where he'd made corrections.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I simply don't -- I got them and they are
25 here.
Page 16525
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to give
5 evidence and testimony. Before you do so, our rules require that you
6 enter a solemn declaration, which is equivalent to an oath, that in the
7 course of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth
8 and nothing but the truth, a formula with which I am sure you are
9 familiar, and I suggest you take in your hand the text of the solemn
10 declaration and go ahead by reading it aloud, and that will be your solemn
11 undertaking with us.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: ADIL OSMANOVIC
15 [Witness answered through Interpreter]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Now, what's going
17 to happen, Mr. Osmanovic, is that you are going to be asked a series of
18 questions by Ms. Korner, who is lead counsel for the Prosecution in this
19 case, a case which has been instituted against Radoslav Brdjanin, and she
20 will then be followed by the Defence team for Mr. Brdjanin on
21 cross-examination. It may well be that you will not finish your testimony
22 today. In other words, that you will -- we may have to continue tomorrow.
23 We will try to do our best to have you finish your testimony tomorrow, but
24 I can't promise that. Very much depends on how you answer the questions.
25 Many witnesses have the habit of giving us more information than they are
Page 16526
1 asked for. So my suggestion to you is to answer the question, the whole
2 question, and nothing but the question, and I can assure you that if you
3 do that, you will leave this Tribunal earlier than you think.
4 So Ms. Korner, he is in your hands.
5 Examined by Ms. Korner:
6 Q. Sir, could you be very kind and give us your name.
7 A. Adil Osmanovic.
8 Q. And were you born on the 24th of July, 1963?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And are you a Bosniak by nationality?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you presently president of the regional SDA board for Northern
13 Bosnia?
14 A. No.
15 Q. But are you presently, therefore, a vice-president of the
16 Republika Srpska Assembly?
17 A. Not the assembly, but Republika Srpska.
18 Q. I'm sorry, which shows the folly of trying to lead.
19 Were you, however, when your statement was taken in 2000, the
20 president of the regional SDA board?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when did you become the vice-president of Republika Srpska?
23 A. In the last general elections, in October 2002.
24 Q. Up until May of 1992, from the time of the multi-party elections,
25 were you a member of the SDA in Teslic?
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Page 16528
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. All right. If I can deal briefly with your background, I think
3 that you attended, after your secondary education in Sarajevo, an arts and
4 language facility in Pristina between 1984 and 1990.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. With a two-year break for your JNA military service?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And after graduating for Pristina, did you go to a village called
9 Hrankovic in the Teslic municipality where you performed religious
10 services as an imam at the mosque there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you hold that position between January, 1990 and the 1st
13 of April, 1991?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then after the multi-party elections, in April of 1991, did
16 you -- were you appointed to the position of secretary to the municipal
17 assembly for the Teslic municipality?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I want to ask you first of all, please, a little bit about Teslic
20 and then deal with your position.
21 Could you have a look, please, at the census document for 1991?
22 It's Exhibit P60.
23 And if you can find Teslic, which, I think, you will find on the
24 last page but one.
25 A. Yes, I've found it.
Page 16529
1 Q. Does that show that in 1991, the total population of Teslic was
2 just under 60.000 people, 59.854?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Of the Croats were some 9.525, forming 15.9 per cent. The Muslims
5 12.802, 21 per cent, and then the Serbs, 32.962, 55.1 per cent. And then
6 a few people who declared themselves Yugoslavs or others. So Teslic -- in
7 Teslic there was an overall majority of Serbs; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Now, I think we need to look now please at a map of Bosnia to
10 identify the whereabouts of Teslic rather than the ARK map.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is a new map.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Ms. Korner, let me ask him a question. I
13 notice from this table that you were just looking at, that over the space
14 of -- a period of 20 years, that's from 1971 to 1991, the population, the
15 Serb component of the population, was on the decline, it was 62 per
16 cent -- 62 per cent in 1971, at 32.700, it went up to 35.000 in 1981,
17 dropped back to 32, which is equivalent to 55 per cent, as against the 62
18 per cent that it was 20 years earlier. Can you fathom a reason for this?
19 Do you have an idea why this could be so? Why the Serb population was
20 diminishing in a municipality which was predominantly Serb?
21 MS. BARUCH: Your Honour, I believe that this witness was not in
22 that town at that time.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but perhaps he knows. Let's see whether he
24 can give us an answer.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that during the 1971
Page 16530
1 census period, a significant number of Muslims declared themselves
2 differently. They didn't declare themselves as Muslims, and also a
3 significant number of Serbs worked in Vojvodina and in Serbia, so there
4 was a migration of population within the then Socialist Federative
5 Republic of Yugoslavia.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough for the time being. Yes. Ms. Korner,
7 please go ahead.
8 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
9 Q. That's all we need to do with that document. Could you be handed
10 now, please, a map of the whole of Bosnia? There are copies available for
11 Your Honours because I don't think we've used this one before. And if we
12 could put it up on the ELMO? Sir, you'll be able to see it on the screen
13 in front of you. Except it's upside down, usher. All right.
14 Can we see on that map -- I don't know whether we can focus a
15 little bit better on it, yeah, we need -- usher if you could pull -- we
16 need the left hand bit to come -- no, sorry, the other way, and down, no,
17 down. Thank you. That's great.
18 We can see there, if we see Doboj at the right-hand side of the
19 screen, we can see Teslic just below that as we are looking at it, to the
20 left, and then the road to Banja Luka, and we can see, I think, that going
21 up from Doboj to Derventa and then we see the Croatian border, do we?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Roughly -- I'm sorry, you've taken Teslic off. The
24 focus -- sorry, the focus is too -- I want Teslic. Thanks. Stop, that's
25 it. Roughly how far was Teslic from the border of Croatia that we can
Page 16531
1 see, Bosanski Brod and up there?
2 A. Around 70 kilometres.
3 Q. And just for the purposes of this -- can we focus on the left-hand
4 side of the map as we look at it? Thank you.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we didn't have this map when the
6 Petrovac witness was here but Your Honours will see rather more clearly
7 than with the ARK map Petrovac to the left there and then we can see down
8 the side of that Drvar and Knin is just over -- can we pull the map
9 slightly to the right? No. Can we see it? No. We can see Bihac at the
10 top. Never mind. Anyhow, that's what I wanted to do. Your Honours have
11 the map in any event.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. No problem.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you. Your Honour, that will be 1956,
14 please. We've jumped some numbers because of the Rule 92 statements.
15 Q. Now, next, can I ask you to look at a map that deals with the
16 ethnicity, the nationality of the various areas?
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we haven't at the moment got any other
18 copies, they are going to be brought down so perhaps I can put it on the
19 ELMO. Thank you.
20 Q. We can see there -- and I think you've had a chance to look at it,
21 and can you confirm that the villages shown in green had a Muslim majority
22 within those villages and areas? And would you agree that that's pretty
23 accurate?
24 A. Yes. The green colour indeed shows those areas where Muslims were
25 a majority.
Page 16532
1 JUDGE AGIUS: When?
2 MS. KORNER: In -- yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: What time are we talking about?
4 MS. KORNER:
5 Q. In 1992, is this where they were a majority?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We can see Teslic town itself is marked as largely Serb but there
8 is a particular area called Stenjak where there were Muslims; is that
9 accurate?
10 A. Yes, that is accurate.
11 Q. And did you yourself live in the Stenjak area?
12 A. Yes. Up to 1992, I lived in Stenjak. That was up to the end of
13 May, 1992.
14 Q. Can we just jump ahead to the present time, 2003? Would that map
15 be an accurate description of the way the ethnicities were split? Are
16 Gornji Rankovic, Gornji Teslic, places like that, are they still a Muslim
17 majority?
18 A. No. They are not.
19 Q. We don't have any accurate figures but roughly how many Muslims
20 are living presently in Teslic?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Teslic the municipality?
22 MS. KORNER: The municipality.
23 Q. If you can answer the question. If you can't, say so.
24 A. I can't give you a precise number, but I can give you a rough
25 estimate because I was until recently a deputy in the Municipal Assembly
Page 16533
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Page 16534
1 of Teslic, so the number would be between 4 and a half and 5.000 Bosniaks
2 who currently reside in Teslic.
3 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's all I want to ask you about that map.
4 And then that would be P1957, please.
5 And finally, I want you to look at a map with some photographs.
6 Are you able, on the left-hand -- can we move the thing so we can
7 see the photographs on the left of the -- thank you. Are you able to
8 identify photograph number 3 on that map? Yeah, thank you.
9 A. On that photograph, you can see clearly the building which housed
10 the political and social associations which made part of the Municipal
11 Assembly of Teslic up to June, 1992. On the left-hand side, but you can't
12 see it on this photo is the public security station, the police station.
13 Q. You say the political parties. Did all the political parties have
14 their offices in this one building? Political associations?
15 A. After the general elections which took place in November, 1992,
16 when the administration in Teslic was founded, all the political parties
17 which had their seats in the municipal assembly had their offices in this
18 room. That meant the SDA, the SDS and the HDZ, and then existing the
19 Socialist Democratic Alliance, the Alliance of Reformists and so on and so
20 forth.
21 Q. It was translated 1992. Did you mean to say 1992? Don't worry,
22 Ms. Baruch, I can see these things myself.
23 A. No. After the general elections in 1990.
24 Q. Yeah.
25 A. Those were the first elections that ever took place in the former
Page 16535
1 Yugoslavia. That is the multi-party elections when the administration was
2 established in Teslic, then all the political parties got room for offices
3 in this building and they kept those offices up to mid-May or late May,
4 1992.
5 Q. All right. And the only other photograph, could you look at,
6 please, photograph number 5, which is on the right-hand side? Can you
7 tell us what that is?
8 A. This building housed the Territorial Defence staff and the
9 Secretariat for People's Defence.
10 Q. And where was the municipal building? Can we see that in any of
11 the photographs?
12 A. The municipal building -- you can't see it on this photo but it
13 was not far from this building.
14 Q. From the TO building?
15 A. Yes. Not far from the Territorial Defence staff building.
16 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that will then become P1959.
18 Q. Now, can we go back to your job in the municipal assembly? You
19 were appointed as the secretary of the municipal assembly. After the
20 election, did the -- was the SDS in control approximately of 48 per cent
21 of the assembly? In other words, they had 48 per cent of the seats?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And so did they hold the key positions in the assembly, namely the
24 president of the municipal assembly?
25 A. Yes. The president and -- of the assembly and the president of
Page 16536
1 the executive board came from their ranks.
2 Q. And was the president of the assembly a gentleman named Nikola
3 Peresic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the president of the executive board Milorad Markovic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did the SDS, i.e., the Serbs, also have charge of the
8 Territorial Defence unit, the commander being a gentleman named Cedo
9 Grbic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And was the chief of police also a Serb?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And was that a gentleman named Dusan Kuzmanovic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I think that the SDA had 16 per cent of the seats, and did they
16 hold the following positions: The vice-president of the executive board,
17 who was a Mr. Mahalbasic?
18 A. Yes, Ferid Mahalbasic.
19 Q. And also the secretary to the Secretariat of the People's Defence?
20 Was that a gentleman named Mensur Degirmendzic? You tell us his name.
21 A. Yes, Mensur Degirmendzic.
22 Q. And yourself as secretary to the assembly. And then finally, the
23 HDZ, the Croatian party, did that have 10 per cent of the seats and they
24 held a few positions, though not particularly high ones?
25 A. Yes.
Page 16537
1 Q. Now, I want to ask you, please, a little bit about first of all
2 your position as secretary and your duties. What were the duties of the
3 secretary to the assembly?
4 A. The secretary to the assembly had to look after the legality of
5 the work of the municipal assembly. He was also the first assistant to
6 the president of the assembly when it came to preparing the upcoming
7 sessions of the assembly. All the documents, all the materials, that were
8 to be discussed by the municipal assembly would be prepared by the various
9 heads of the Secretariats, and then they would forward them to the
10 secretary to the assembly, at which stage the secretary, together with the
11 president of the municipal assembly, would prepare the agenda of the
12 upcoming session of the assembly and that would be the final preparation
13 for the upcoming session of the assembly. So that would be in a nutshell
14 what the role of the secretary was, and that is exactly what I did in
15 Teslic.
16 Q. And were your duties actually defined by law, by the Statute of
17 the municipality?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, the preparation of the agenda which you did with the
20 president of the assembly, was that an important matter?
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. And why was that?
23 A. First of all, according to the statute and the book of rules that
24 governed the work of the assembly, the president was in charge of
25 proposing an agenda to the municipal assembly, so he was authorised by the
Page 16538
1 statute to propose the agenda, and the topics to be discussed by the
2 deputies largely depended on the decision of the president, and hence all
3 the decisions that were to be made by the assembly depend on the
4 president. Certainly the last say on that was by the assembly but the
5 proposal was up to the president.
6 Q. All right. What would have to happen if the deputies to the
7 assembly wanted to alter the agenda in some way?
8 A. Before the session of the assembly, the president would put
9 forward the agenda for discussion and every deputy was in the position to
10 either remove certain items from the agenda or alternatively, to propose
11 some new items to be added to the agenda, in providing that the relevant
12 Secretariat had enough time to prepare the required materials for the
13 discussion.
14 Q. And would there have to be a vote in the assembly as to whether or
15 not a particular item would be added to the agenda?
16 A. Yes. The first vote was on those proposals, and if those
17 proposals received a qualified majority, then they would be added to the
18 finalised agenda for that session.
19 Q. So the president could set the agenda himself without any vote,
20 but if somebody wanted something added, there would have to be a vote?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. Now, I want to jump forward for a moment to the time after you'd
23 left Teslic and you were in Tesanj and were placed in charge of a Crisis
24 Staff that was set up, or War Presidency, I should say, in exile.
25 Appreciating that you had no -- nothing to control, as it were,
Page 16539
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Page 16540
1 because you were in exile, but would the same procedures about the setting
2 of the agenda by the president of the Crisis Staff in consultation with
3 his secretary, be followed?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Now, once the agenda was set and matters were
6 discussed, if a decision had to be made, how would that decision be taken?
7 A. Could you please repeat your question?
8 Q. I'm returning to the assembly. You've told us about the agenda,
9 the items on the agenda. If there had to be a decision made, for example
10 as to the distribution of oil, how would that decision be arrived at in
11 the assembly?
12 A. If a decision were to be adopted, if it would really be on the
13 agenda, and if this kind of decision were adopted by a parliamentary
14 majority, then it would enter into force.
15 Q. Sorry, it's the actual mechanics. You say a parliamentary
16 majority. Would there be a vote?
17 A. Yes. Yes, a vote.
18 Q. And if the majority decided either in favour or against, was that
19 then a binding decision? Or could the --
20 A. Yes, yes. That decision is binding. If it is passed by a
21 qualified majority in the assembly, the kind of majority required to pass
22 a decision.
23 Q. Did the president of the assembly have any power to overrule a
24 decision made by the members of the assembly?
25 A. If, during the actual vote, the president were to vote against a
Page 16541
1 draft decision, and if the parliamentary majority were to be in favour of
2 that decision, it is the duty of the president to see that the decision is
3 implemented nevertheless, even if he were against it.
4 Q. And once a decision was taken, did it have to be signed by the
5 president, if he was present, before it could become law?
6 A. Yes. If the president presides over the assembly, it is his duty
7 to sign all the decisions that are passed by the assembly, and then these
8 decisions are published in the Official Gazette of the assembly of the
9 municipality.
10 Q. And would they come into effect, the decisions, before they were
11 published in the Official Gazette?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So it was only the publication in the gazette, was it, that gave
14 those decisions the force of law, effectively that what was decided could
15 take place?
16 A. Yes. At the end of every decision, it says that it shall enter
17 into force on its date of publication in the Official Gazette of the
18 municipality, or at the end of some other decisions it may say that they
19 shall enter into force within a certain time period, within 30 days or 60
20 days but they have to be published in the Official Gazette.
21 Q. All right. Supposing the president was absent from an assembly
22 meeting, was anybody else authorised to sign these decisions in his
23 absence?
24 A. Decisions that are passed by the assembly are signed by the person
25 who had chaired the assembly meeting. If the president was not in a
Page 16542
1 position to chair the actual meeting, if he were replaced by the
2 vice-president of the assembly, then it would be the vice-president who
3 would sign the decision concerned.
4 Q. Now, finally I want to ask you briefly, please, about the
5 executive council of the assembly. What was its function?
6 A. In the setup of the municipalities as they existed then, we also
7 had an executive board which could be called a local government or a
8 municipal government. The executive board was in charge of preparing
9 bills that were to become laws. Then these bills would be submitted to
10 the president in order for them to appear on the agenda. The executive
11 board consisted of secretaries of the Secretariats. Then there were two
12 people from the outside so to speak, volunteers, who covered specific
13 areas like the economy, for instance. The executive board as the word
14 itself says, is an executive body. It is in charge of implementing the
15 decisions that were adopted by the assembly.
16 Q. Did it report to the assembly?
17 A. Yes. They are appointed by the assembly and the assembly possibly
18 relieves them of their duties as well.
19 Q. Can we turn to your relationship with Mr. Peresic, who was the
20 president of the assembly? Did you have -- what sort of a working
21 relationship did you have with him?
22 A. After the establishment of the assembly and the executive
23 government in Teslic, Mr. Peresic, the president of the assembly, and I
24 had rather good and professional relations, until the beginning of April,
25 1992.
Page 16543
1 Q. You've told us that the president had to abide by the vote that
2 was taken by the deputies, whether he agreed with it or not. In the case
3 of Mr. Peresic, was he able in any way to affect decisions that were
4 taken?
5 A. In the assembly?
6 Q. In the assembly.
7 A. Well, the president was the person who would propose the agenda
8 for the meeting, so then he would have the -- he should have the political
9 wisdom, if I can put it that way, not to put anything on the agenda that
10 would not receive adequate support or rather majority support.
11 Q. Supposing -- and I'm dealing specifically with Mr. Peresic now --
12 a decision was taken that he didn't like, was he able to do anything about
13 it, if not directly, indirectly?
14 A. If we were to abide by the statute and legal enactments passed by
15 the Municipal Assembly of Teslic, the president should not do anything
16 against a decision that had been adopted by the assembly.
17 Q. I understand that. But what I'm asking is even if legally he had
18 to abide by it, in reality, was he able to in some way affect a decision
19 that had already been taken?
20 A. Well, at given points in time, he certainly could, as the
21 president, and as the person who exercises authority among the secretaries
22 of the Secretariats of the municipality.
23 Q. And how would he do that?
24 A. I cannot say that I have any information to that effect, that he
25 had actually done such things, but as president he could call in the
Page 16544
1 secretaries of the Secretariats and he could say that even if a decision
2 were adopted, it would not have to be dealt with that seriously and it
3 wouldn't have to be implemented to the letter. That would be sufficient
4 for having the people who were supposed to carry out the decision have
5 certain reservations about it.
6 Q. All right. Now, generally speaking, what were relationships like
7 between the different nationalities up until the war in Croatia started?
8 A. Well, in the town of Teslic itself, in the municipality of Teslic,
9 after the elections, the first democratic elections, in November 1990,
10 when an entire system had been replaced, the communist system, that is,
11 there was great delight among the citizens. Interethnic relations in
12 Teslic, among all the ethnic groups, were indeed at a rather high level.
13 That's the kind of atmosphere that prevailed in the assembly of the
14 municipality of Teslic too.
15 Q. Were there -- had intermarriages between the nationalities, the
16 ethnicities, taken place?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in Teslic town itself, we've seen that Stenjak, you told us,
19 where you lived, was a suburb, I think of the town and was a Muslim area.
20 What about other areas? Were they segregated or mixed?
21 A. The villages around Teslic were rather mono-ethnic but the town
22 itself was truly multi-ethnic. Like all -- like in all towns in Bosnia,
23 there were apartment buildings and members of different ethnic groups were
24 neighbours within these buildings. They had apartments right next to each
25 other.
Page 16545
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Page 16546
1 Q. Now, I want to move, then, please, to the events after the war in
2 Croatia began. When there was the call for mobilisation, did the Bosniaks
3 or Muslims respond to the call?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did that affect the relationships?
6 A. Well, to a large degree, yes.
7 Q. And in what way?
8 A. Because Bosniaks and Croats did not respond to the mobilisation
9 call-up because they were afraid that they would be sent to the front in
10 Croatia.
11 Q. And how did -- did the Serbs respond to the mobilisation order?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And how did that affect the way that the Serbs treated the Croat
14 and Muslim population in Teslic, in the municipality?
15 A. Well, a large number -- or rather there were quite a few Serbs who
16 were volunteers, who took part in the war in Croatia, who were there at
17 the front line, but then a large number were mobilised as well. A
18 considerable number of Serbs from Teslic were killed in the battlefields
19 in Croatia. All of this led to tensions in the relations between Serbs on
20 the one hand and Bosniaks and Croats on the other hand. Also many
21 soldiers who were returning from the front line and who had experienced
22 everything that they had experienced there, bloodshed, suffering, et
23 cetera, all of that certainly did affect their relationship with the
24 Bosniak and Croat population in Teslic.
25 Q. I want to look, please, at the political alignment of where Teslic
Page 16547
1 was. We can see that Teslic was close to Doboj and certainly closer to
2 Doboj than to Banja Luka. Was there a link between Teslic and Doboj?
3 A. There was always a link between Teslic and Doboj, because these
4 are two neighbouring towns relatively speaking.
5 Q. In terms of the political area, in terms of finance and whatever,
6 was Teslic aligned to Doboj or Banja Luka?
7 A. As I have already said, Teslic was always aligned to Doboj in
8 terms of financial flows, and in terms of health care. People were sent
9 for medical treatment to Doboj, to the hospital in Doboj, from the health
10 centre in Teslic.
11 Q. During 1991, was there ever a proposal made that Teslic should be
12 aligned to Banja Luka?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. By whom was that proposal made?
15 A. At the regular session of the assembly, the president of the
16 assembly acted in a rather unusual manner and just before the agenda was
17 adopted, he suggested that the agenda should include the following, namely
18 that the municipality of Teslic should be annexed to the Banja Luka
19 region. Then the assemblymen started debating the issue. All the
20 assemblymen from the ranks of other political parties except for the
21 assemblymen coming from the Serb Democratic Party, were opposed to this,
22 and then the president withdrew this proposal.
23 Q. Why was there opposition from all parties save the SDS?
24 A. Because there was not a single valid argument for Teslic being
25 annexed to Banja Luka.
Page 16548
1 Q. Did the -- did Mr. Peresic explain why he and the other members of
2 the SDS wished to join the Banja Luka region?
3 A. The president then presented the following argumentation: That
4 the Banja Luka region is stronger economically and that in that context,
5 the municipality of Teslic would fare better. That's what he said
6 publicly. In the conversation that I had with him, this was a tete-a-tete
7 conversation, he said that they were safer there in the region of Banja
8 Luka.
9 Q. Did he explain what he meant by safer?
10 A. Well, in that area, in the broader area of the Banja Luka region,
11 the SDS was in government, that is to say around the region, and therefore
12 it was better for them than Doboj.
13 Q. What was Doboj like, then, as an area, in the sense of who
14 controlled it, which party?
15 A. Well, from Teslic to -- between Teslic and Doboj, there was the
16 municipality of Tesanj and the SDA was in government there. The
17 municipality of Gracanica is right next to Doboj, again the Party of
18 Democratic Action was in power there and in Doboj itself the SDA and the
19 SDS were more or less equally in control. The president of the municipal
20 assembly in Doboj was from the SDA.
21 Q. All right. And finally on this topic, can you remember roughly
22 when this proposal was made by Mr. Peresic?
23 A. It was sometime in the second half of 1991.
24 Q. Had you heard at all of something called the association of
25 Bosnian Krajina municipalities? I think I'm mixing it slightly but
Page 16549
1 something like that.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was that in existence at the time that Mr. Peresic made the
4 proposal?
5 A. I'm not sure.
6 Q. All right.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to move to a new topic so
8 perhaps that would be --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner. We will have a 25-minute
10 break so that means resuming at roughly 5 to 11.00. Thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Korner.
14 MS. KORNER:
15 Q. Now, sir, we were talking about the attempt that was made to join
16 the Banja Luka region. At around this time, did you notice any change in
17 your relationship with your -- or rather your dealings professionally with
18 Mr. Peresic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was the change?
21 A. Up to then, we had regular meetings, we had regular contacts, and
22 exchanges of views and opinions. We cooperated in preparing the upcoming
23 sessions of the assembly. After that period, however, I noticed that the
24 relationship between me and the president of the assembly was no longer at
25 a professional level. I also noticed that he was prone to organise
Page 16550
1 meetings with the secretaries of Secretariats only, and only those who
2 were Serbs. His contacts with the chief of the Public Security Station of
3 Teslic were also more frequent than before.
4 Q. Did you discover about meetings he was holding with other
5 presidents of municipalities?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. From whom did you get this information?
8 A. I received this information regarding the presidents of municipal
9 assemblies who were Serbs holding meetings on the territories of
10 particular municipalities. I received this information from many friends
11 and the most striking information to that effect was from the secretary
12 for People's Defence, Mr. Mensur Degirmendzic, who had received a fax that
13 was addressed to his office. In that fax, a meeting of the Serbian
14 presidents of municipal assemblies was called and, by mistake, it reached
15 his office rather than some other office.
16 Q. I want to then move through the remainder of the events of 1991,
17 and I don't think there is any dispute about the fact that in late August,
18 early September, the JNA took over the records and files of the military
19 reservists from the Secretariat of the People's Defence. What was the
20 importance of that, as far as Teslic was concerned?
21 A. In late August or early September, officers of the JNA arrived in
22 Teslic. Their task was to take over all the records from the Secretariat
23 of People's Defence and place them under their control. The importance of
24 those records lies primarily in the fact that those records contained all
25 the data, all the particulars, of all the reserve officers and the
Page 16551
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Page 16552
1 establishment of all the units. If one has these records, then one can
2 carry out a mobilisation within the space of 24 hours and end up with all
3 the exact establishment of all the units along the chain of command.
4 Q. Now, was the matter of the taking over of these records by the JNA
5 discussed in the assembly?
6 A. What surprised me and many others was the fact that we never
7 carried out any sort of discussion about this problem at any of the
8 sessions of the Municipal Assembly of Teslic, although everybody was aware
9 of the fact that civilians in Teslic opposed to the JNA taking over those
10 records. There was a rally which almost escalated into an incident.
11 However, this was never discussed at any of the sessions of the Municipal
12 Assembly of Teslic.
13 Q. But did you discuss the matter personally with Mr. Peresic?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And what did he tell you about this?
16 A. I told him that such a move on the part of the JNA is something
17 that I could not understand and that I could not accept. He simply told
18 me that the JNA was the only armed force on the territory of Yugoslavia
19 which was a legitimate armed force and that it had the authority that it
20 had. I could not agree with that, because at that time we did not need a
21 military administration, and everybody pointed into that direction. I
22 also told him that I could no longer perceive the JNA as the army of all
23 the peoples and of all the nationalities that existed on the territory of
24 Yugoslavia.
25 Q. And why was that? Why had your view of the JNA changed?
Page 16553
1 A. The developments that took place on the territory of the Republic
2 of Slovenia, on the territory of the Republic of Croatia and the moves on
3 the part of the high ranking officers of the JNA who communicated only
4 with representatives of the Serbian people, pointed to the fact that the
5 Yugoslav People's Army was the army of only one people, and increasingly
6 an army of just one political party, and that was the Serbian democratic
7 party.
8 Q. Now, did the JNA in fact come to Teslic and take the records?
9 A. Yes, they did. After this very hard day when a number of
10 civilians wanted to prevent the JNA from taking those records from the
11 Secretariat, many of those civilians literally placed their bodies in
12 front of the vehicles of the JNA to prevent this from happening. The JNA,
13 i.e., its officers, withdrew but on the following night, when the duty
14 officer in the Secretariat was a Serbian citizen, they got in the building
15 and they took all the records that they wanted to take on the previous
16 day.
17 Q. Now, up until the autumn of 1991, were there any JNA units
18 stationed in Teslic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did that change in the autumn of 1991?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In what way?
23 A. In a very strange way. An active officer of the JNA, whose family
24 name was -- I can't remember exactly, he came to talk with the president
25 of the municipal assembly. We found out that in the village of Djulici
Page 16554
1 where certain facilities of the JNA were at the time, a JNA unit was
2 stationed there. This unit was some 100 men strong. And this was the
3 first time ever that active officers of the JNA and its troop were present
4 in Teslic or in its immediate vicinity, because this village of Djulici
5 was in the immediate vicinity of Teslic.
6 Q. You said that you couldn't remember the family name of the
7 officer. Were you able to remember it at the time you made your statement
8 to the investigator in 2000?
9 A. Yes. I know that he was then replaced by Dejan Bilanovic but
10 currently I can't remember the name of this first person, the person that
11 Mr. Dejan Bilanovic replaced.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is a -- unless there is an
13 objection I mean, I can either lead it from him from his statement or ask
14 him to refresh his memory from his statement.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: As far as I am concerned, you can go ahead. I
16 wouldn't imagine there is a strong objection from the Defence.
17 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
18 Q. Was the name of the first officer Major Veljko Bosanac?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said that he met with the president of the municipality. Did
21 you -- were you ever given an explanation by Mr. Peresic as to why this
22 JNA unit was suddenly being stationed there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was any kind of training being carried out within the municipality
25 by the JNA?
Page 16555
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And where was that being carried out?
3 A. Later on, we received information from some of the citizens of
4 Teslic municipality who moved about the entire territory of the
5 municipality for various reasons, either for farm work or some other
6 reasons, and they told us that a number of the troops of the JNA were
7 stationed in a Serbian village called Jesenova and that in that area,
8 there was an intensive training of reservists taking place.
9 Q. Now, again, around this period of time, the autumn of 1991, was
10 there anything happening in relation to non-Serb property?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what was that? First of all, what kind of property? Private
13 or commercial?
14 A. Private property, the property belonging to Bosniaks and Croats,
15 of those who had already been targeted in summer and autumn of 1992, their
16 property was blown up or set fire to. The property that I'm talking
17 about, are mostly summer cottages that were not permanently inhabited by
18 their owners.
19 Q. The translation of what you said is that they were targeted in the
20 summer and autumn of 1992. Did you mean 1992?
21 A. 1991. I may have made a mistake.
22 Q. All right. Were these explosions or arson investigated by the
23 police?
24 A. Unfortunately, the police did carry out some on-site
25 investigations but without any results. All they did was to make a note
Page 16556
1 of the act but perpetrators were never found.
2 Q. I want to move through quickly the last real event of 1991. Did
3 the Serbs hold a plebiscite in November of 1991 in Teslic?
4 A. A plebiscite did take place.
5 Q. And then in -- moving through until early 1992, was there then the
6 referendum in February, organised by the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. Yes, there was.
8 Q. Now, I want, before I deal with the last part of the events that
9 you were concerned with in Teslic, to ask you about the Autonomous Region
10 of Krajina so-called. Did you become aware of the creation of such an
11 autonomous region?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And how did you become aware? From the media or from any other
14 information that you were given?
15 A. I learned that from the media.
16 Q. Did you ever become aware of the Serbs creating something called
17 the Autonomous Region of Northern Bosnia?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how did you become aware of that?
20 A. Also from the media.
21 Q. Did you ever learn whether Mr. Peresic had anything to do with
22 this particular autonomous region?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, did you ever meet Radoslav Brdjanin?
25 A. No.
Page 16557
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Page 16558
1 Q. Did you ever see him in Teslic?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you become aware of Mr. Brdjanin? And can you tell us, if you
4 did, when you first became aware of Mr. Brdjanin?
5 A. I met Mr. Brdjanin -- actually, I became aware of him through the
6 electronic and written media. I never saw him personally face to face.
7 It is only today that I'm seeing him for the first time. I know that he
8 was a deputy in the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and I
9 saw him in the media, I read about him, and I followed his appearances and
10 activities, but only through the media.
11 MS. KORNER: Does Your Honour want me to ask him to identify him
12 Mr. Brdjanin, as he said he saw him on television.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. He mentioned and he also said that he's seen
14 him here.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: He's just stated that he's seeing him for the first
17 time today. Perhaps he may look left, right and centre and identify him
18 for us, if he can.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. Sir --
21 MS. BARUCH: Your Honour, I have been informed since the last
22 in-court identification that the acknowledgement of the various common law
23 countries and authorities followed by this Court is that the setup in the
24 courtroom is so prejudicial and influential with regard to such
25 identifications, that it would be inappropriate to do so in the courtroom
Page 16559
1 and for that reason, I am objecting.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: It is not -- the objection is not sustained. It's
3 overruled. It's only because the witness has pointed out that he is
4 seeing him here for the first time that we want to make sure that he is
5 seeing the right person. So otherwise, we wouldn't have asked him to
6 identify the witness.
7 MS. KORNER:
8 Q. Sir, can you just -- the best thing would be if you can look
9 around the Court and tell us whether you can see Mr. Brdjanin and if so,
10 where.
11 A. Yes. I can see him to the left side of me.
12 Q. Is there anybody next to him?
13 A. Yes. A policeman.
14 MS. KORNER: I don't think there is --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go ahead.
16 MS. KORNER: Thank you. I suppose technically I see my last words
17 because I muttered them, for the record that he identified Mr. Brdjanin.
18 Q. I know it's a long time ago, sir, but can you remember now
19 anything about the sort of speeches that Mr. Brdjanin was making?
20 A. I can say that Mr. Brdjanin, at least during the period while I
21 followed the political situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, when he spoke
22 in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, his political speeches were rather
23 heated.
24 Q. And can you give us a little bit more detail of that? What do you
25 mean by "rather heated"?
Page 16560
1 A. When I say "heated," I mean that the discussions in the parliament
2 regarding the referendum, he was the advocate of the Serbs living in
3 Yugoslavia and he said that the Serbs would never accept the independence
4 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 Q. Now, finally on Mr. Brdjanin, did you become aware of his
6 position -- I'm sorry, I should go back. Did you become aware of the
7 establishment of a regional Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region with its
8 base in Banja Luka?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And again, how did you hear about that? Through the media or
11 through people telling you?
12 A. Through the media.
13 Q. And did you become aware, again, obviously, through the media, of
14 Mr. Brdjanin's position on that Crisis Staff?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that position was what?
17 A. He was the president of the Crisis Staff.
18 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, after the referendum that took place
19 on the independence of Bosnia, how did that affect the Assembly in Teslic?
20 A. This had a huge bearing, a huge negative bearing on the work of
21 the Municipal Assembly of Teslic. The plebiscite was carried out, the
22 so-called by the election commission of the municipality of Teslic which
23 consisted of Serbs only, and the referendum on the independence of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina was carried out by the legitimate municipal election
25 commission that existed in Teslic. Moreover, the Municipal Assembly of
Page 16561
1 Teslic no longer had the correct harmony amongst the political parties
2 that existed before, and there was a deterioration in the professional
3 relationship between the president of the municipal assembly and the
4 president of the executive board on the one hand, and the secretary to the
5 municipal assembly on the other hand.
6 Q. Now, did there come a time when there was a meeting of the
7 assembly to discuss joining the Teslic municipality to the Serbian
8 republic, which had been declared?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was that meeting attended by all the deputies?
11 A. Unfortunately, I as the secretary to the assembly, the secretaries
12 of various Secretariats, or any of the deputies from the Croatian or
13 Muslim peoples were not aware of such assembly session being prepared, nor
14 did we ever found out when it took place.
15 Q. And how did you get to hear about it?
16 A. In the first half of April, 1991, the president of the executive
17 board of the Municipal Assembly of Teslic, Mr. Milorad Markovic, called
18 all the secretaries of the Secretariats of the Municipal Assembly of
19 Teslic to a meeting. At that meeting, he told us that on the previous
20 day, there had been a session of the Municipal Assembly of Teslic and that
21 at that session, a decision had been made for municipality of Teslic to
22 join the so-called Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The present
23 officials belonging to the Bosniak and Croat peoples found this very
24 surprising.
25 Q. All right. Now, you said again or it's the translation, in the
Page 16562
1 first half of April, 1991. Can we take it you meant 1992?
2 A. 1992, yes.
3 Q. Now, I want you to look, please, at a document, Exhibit P1921.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, while that's happening can I correct an
5 exhibit number that I gave to Your Honour on the maps, just so it's there?
6 The ethnic map should have been P1958, not P1959.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.
8 MS. BARUCH:, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I have the ethnic map
9 originally as 1957 and --
10 A.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right. The -- what was 1959 does not
12 have -- is not the ethnic map but it's the map with some corresponding
13 photos. So that I assume needs to become 1958 because there was no 1958
14 in between the 1959 and the 1957. So the ethnic map would, I assume,
15 remain 1957.
16 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour, I'm sorry, there was a slight
17 confusion over maps.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. It's not the first time that that
19 happens, Ms. Korner. So ... yesterday, we had a hell of a confusion in
20 the morning.
21 MS. KORNER: Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mrs. Baruch.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. First of all, I don't think, sir, you saw that until you arrived
25 at this Court to look at these documents; is that correct? You didn't see
Page 16563
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Page 16564
1 it at the time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We will just go through it and then I want to ask you something
4 about it. It is allegedly -- and it's signed you apparently by Mr.
5 Peresic. Do you recognise the signature of Mr. Peresic?.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is the formal document that states that the Teslic Municipal
8 Assembly at the meeting held on the 6th of April, adopted by a majority
9 vote, the following decision: "Teslic a constituent part of the Serbian
10 Republic of Bosnia, of the territory of the Serbian republic, that the
11 constitution and laws of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
12 shall become null and void, and laws of the Serbian republic applied."
13 And then to deal with the administrative organs, "pending final
14 consolidation of the Serbian autonomous region of Northern Bosnia, all
15 functions of municipal administrative organs and state and public
16 institutions shall be performed through the organs of the autonomous
17 region of the Bosnian Krajina whose seat is in Banja Luka." And then a
18 call for the citizens to accept this, particularly the Muslim and Croatian
19 fellow citizens.
20 Now, the form of this document, did that comply with the normal
21 form of documents issuing decisions?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What should it -- what should this document have contained?
24 A. This document was done rather unprofessionally. All documents
25 that were adopted by the Municipal Assembly of Teslic had a preamble that
Page 16565
1 was quite different. In the preamble, it would say that pursuant to
2 article such and such of the statute of the Municipal Assembly of Teslic,
3 and pursuant to such and such article of the rules of procedure of the
4 municipality -- Municipal Assembly of Teslic, at a regular session, and
5 then there should be the number of that session, whether it was the 5th
6 session or the 15th session, et cetera, the following decision has been
7 passed. It never said by a majority vote, because by mentioning the rules
8 of procedure in the preamble, it was obvious that any decision that was
9 passed meant that it was passed by majority vote. Since this document was
10 drafted in this way, it should have invoked this so-called constitution of
11 the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and such and such an article
12 should have been mentioned again, the rules of procedure of the Municipal
13 Assembly of Teslic should have been mentioned too, because it was still in
14 force. Also, it should be noted then that such and such a decision was
15 passed, item 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but this shows that this document or this
16 decision does not refer to any valid document. The Statute of the
17 municipal assembly or the rules of procedure of the municipal assembly, or
18 the constitution of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. Before this decision to join the Serb republic, had there been any
20 discussions between yourself and Mr. Peresic or the SDA and the SDS about
21 splitting the assembly into a Serbian assembly and a non-Serb assembly?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, you -- you can take the document, thank
24 you very much. You were telling us how you were informed by Mr. Markovic
25 about the decision that had been taken. Did Mr. Markovic explain to you
Page 16566
1 what you had -- what you and the other members of the assembly had to do
2 if you wanted to continue to work?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what was that?
5 A. After having informed us of the fact that a decision was passed on
6 the annexation of the municipality of Teslic to the Serb Republic of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Milorad Markovic said that all the employees of
8 the municipality, notably elected officials, if they wished to remain in
9 their positions, should state -- should sign, rather, statements of
10 allegiance to the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Q. What was your reaction to that?
12 A. We were all truly surprised by this kind of thing. I said that
13 none of the officials that were proposed by the Party of Democratic Action
14 to certain positions in the municipal assembly would not sign such an
15 illegal, illegitimate and unnecessary allegiance to the Serb Republic of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I said that this is indeed an unconstitutional and
17 unlawful way for the assembly to work, as well as for the president of the
18 executive board, and I also said that professional staff members employed
19 in the assembly or municipal organs of Teslic should at least be spared
20 from signing these statements of allegiance to the Serb Republic of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We elected officials came to our positions from
22 certain jobs that we had held previously so we can simply go to our
23 original jobs, whereas people who were staff members at the municipal
24 assembly for 15 or 20 years had no where else to go if they would not sign
25 this statement of allegiance.
Page 16567
1 Q. What was Mr. Markovic's reaction to what you said to him? What
2 did he tell you would happen if people didn't sign?
3 A. Mr. Markovic wanted to show his principled stance and rigid stance
4 vis-a-vis this decision passed by the Municipal Assembly of Teslic and he
5 said that all of those who didn't sign this statement of allegiance to the
6 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina would remain jobless regardless of
7 whether they were elected officials or professional staff within the
8 municipal assembly.
9 Q. What happened to people who didn't sign the loyalty oath?
10 A. Neither I nor other officials belonging to the Muslim and Croat
11 peoples, did not sign this loyalty oath, and this period went on until the
12 second half of April. Afterwards, people were dismissed if they did not
13 sign this loyalty oath.
14 Q. We got a double negative in this. So do you mean that you and the
15 other officials didn't sign?
16 A. We did not. We did not.
17 Q. You were dismissed eventually and others. What about people such
18 as the police? Were there any non-Serbs in the police?
19 A. After that, this loyalty oath came to apply to the police and
20 public services. First it focused on the municipality and the police, and
21 all of those who did not sign it remained jobless.
22 Q. Now, around this time, April of 1992, were checkpoints set up?
23 A. Yes. After that, checkpoints were already being established in
24 Teslic vis-a-vis neighbouring municipalities and vis-a-vis villages where
25 there were Muslims and Bosniaks and Croats.
Page 16568
1 Q. Who was manning the checkpoints?
2 A. These checkpoints were manned by unknown men. We called them
3 paramilitary formations. They were armed.
4 Q. Did you ever discover if these paramilitary formations had any
5 kind of name?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I want you to look, please, at one other document, P1925. I'm not
8 sure I made the last one an exhibit. Did I? Oh, it's already. I'm
9 crazy, it's already got a number. Could we have a look at P1925, please?
10 Now, this is a document which is headed the Teslic municipality
11 Crisis Staff, and it's dated the 6th of May. Did you know before you left
12 at the end of May, Teslic, that there was now a Crisis Staff?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How did you find out about it? Did somebody tell you about it or
15 did you hear about it on the media?
16 A. I heard about it directly from some of my friends.
17 Q. Did Mr. Peresic tell you that a Crisis Staff was established, of
18 which he was now the head, president?
19 A. No.
20 Q. If we look, please, at item 1.8, that states that all paramilitary
21 formations and individuals illegally possessing arms and ammunition are
22 called upon to hand them over to the municipal TO staff or the nearest
23 military unit immediately or by no later than 1500 hours on 11 May, 1992.
24 After the expiry of this deadline, responsible organs will search and
25 confiscate arms and ammunition applying the most rigorous sanctions.
Page 16569
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Page 16570
1 How did you find out about this call to disarm?
2 A. I heard this call to disarm over the local radio, Radio Teslic.
3 Q. Was it, as the order says here, all paramilitary formations and
4 individuals, that was said over the radio, should surrender their arms?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that aimed at everyone or a specific element of the
7 population?
8 MS. BARUCH: Your Honour, I'm going to object. That calls for
9 speculation.
10 MS. KORNER: No it doesn't. I'm going to ask for why he says it
11 or how he knows what he's about to say.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection rejected.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Korner.
15 MS. KORNER:
16 Q. Was that aimed at all or just certain sections of the population?
17 A. This call was aimed at the Bosniak and Croatian population only.
18 Q. And how are you able to say that?
19 A. Because in that period, within the unit of the Yugoslav People's
20 Army that was in that area, there were only members of the Serb people.
21 According to the decision passed by the Crisis Staff, it was the legal and
22 legitimate unit in that area. Also, at the public security station, in
23 the police, there were only members of the Serb people who were left. In
24 the opinion of the Crisis Staff, it was legal and legitimate too. It was
25 the legal and legitimate unit. So this only pertained to the Bosniak and
Page 16571
1 Croatian population. For the most part, those policemen, Bosniaks and
2 Croats, who had stopped working, who were forced to stop working at the
3 police station in Teslic.
4 Q. What effect did that call to disarm have on you and the other
5 members of the non-Serbs whom you knew?
6 A. This propaganda or rather this call that was broadcast over Radio
7 Teslic introduced quite a bit of panic among the Bosniak and Croat
8 populations. They were trying to fathom what this meant. A number of
9 them returned their hunting weapons or the pistols that they had obtained
10 legally.
11 Q. Amongst the Serbs that you knew, did this call cause any of the
12 panic that it caused to the Bosniaks and Croats?
13 MS. BARUCH: I'm going to object again, Your Honour, I think that
14 calls for speculation of what other people felt.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Not speculation at all. It's a perception that he
16 may have arrived at, having been present and having experienced these
17 events. So it's not speculation. Go ahead, Ms. Korner.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. Did this panic that you've described, people --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from this, this is a question that has been
21 repeatedly asked actually to about 80 or 90 per cent of the witnesses that
22 have come here to testify.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Talked about the panic it caused, people handing in not illegal
25 weapons but legal weapons. The people, the Serbs that you knew, did they
Page 16572
1 have the same panic, handing in weapons that were legally permitted?
2 A. No. They did not feel this kind of panic and they were not
3 handing in their weapons either.
4 Q. Now, did you yourself possess any weapon?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what was that?
7 A. A pistol.
8 Q. Was that a pistol for which you had a permit?
9 A. Yes. I got that pistol legally from the secretary of the
10 Secretariat of National Defence, and I had a permit for that weapon in my
11 official capacity.
12 Q. Did you hand in your pistol?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And why was that? Or rather why didn't you hand it in?
15 A. I was afraid for my own safety.
16 Q. What did you think might happen, as far as you or your family were
17 concerned?
18 A. Since I was in Teslic then with my wife and our eight-month-old
19 child, we were alone in our apartment, and the only kind of safety I could
20 fear after everything that had happened at the police station, was that I
21 had this pistol. If my apartment were to be attacked or broken into or
22 something like that.
23 Q. You say that everything that had happened at the police station.
24 What do you mean by that?
25 A. What I already said, at the police station there were only ethnic
Page 16573
1 Serb policemen left. I did not trust the police station in Teslic any
2 longer either.
3 Q. Did you have any reason to think that there might be an attack on
4 your apartment or your family?
5 A. Well, certainly, I was afraid, amidst this chaos that started to
6 prevail throughout town, also there was such lawlessness in the
7 municipality, and in the police. People were being forced to sign a
8 loyalty oath to the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You simply no
9 longer had an institution to rely upon and that you could expect to
10 protect you.
11 Q. Did you have any information, whether right or wrong, that might
12 suggest that you -- would be a target of any attack?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. First of all, what was the information?
15 A. What we already touched upon, the Crisis Staff. I received
16 information that the Crisis Staff was meeting very often and that they had
17 compiled certain lists of Bosniaks and Croats that should particularly be
18 paid attention to, and that should particularly be monitored.
19 Q. And from whom or how did you receive this information?
20 A. Well, my friends in Teslic still had some contacts with ethnic
21 Serbs that were correct. They had conveyed such information to them.
22 Some were told quite openly that they were on such and such a list. Some
23 were told that it would be best for them to move out of the municipality
24 of Teslic, and it is through them that I received this type of
25 information.
Page 16574
1 Q. And the lists that were compiled for Bosniaks and Croats that
2 should be paid special attention to, were they told what was going to
3 happen to people on this lists or what might happen to people on this
4 lists -- on these lists?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Which was what?
7 A. We were told quite openly that on this list were Bosniaks and
8 Croats that the Crisis Staff planned to liquidate at a given point in
9 time, that a certain number of Bosniaks and Croats from that list would be
10 brought in, interrogated, mistreated, a certain number from this list
11 would be expelled, and so on.
12 Q. All right. Now, did you speak to Mr. Peresic about this? Or if
13 not you personally, people on your behalf?
14 A. No. In May, I was practically no longer seeing the president of
15 the assembly. Afterwards, there were certain initiatives that a certain
16 number of people should start talks with the president of the assembly and
17 the commander of the town's defence, in order to discuss possible peaceful
18 solutions that would be acceptable to all the peoples and ethnic groups in
19 the territory of the municipality of Teslic.
20 Q. And did those -- did that get anywhere?
21 A. Since we were in a situation that gave us no way out, as far as
22 the municipality of Teslic was concerned, in the talks we suggested that a
23 group of prominent citizens who did not belong to any political parties,
24 consisting of ethnic Bosniaks and Croats, should go and see the president
25 of the municipal assembly, Mr. Peresic, and that this meeting should also
Page 16575
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Page 16576
1 be attended by Dejan Bilanovic. An open discussion should be held, in
2 terms of what the Bosniak and Croat population of the municipality of
3 Teslic should do, in order to prevent anything bad for happening in the
4 municipality of Teslic, and in order to have peace prevail there.
5 Regrettably, this yielded no results whatsoever. Those who attended this
6 meeting told me that the president and the commander, Dejan Bilanovic, did
7 not really give any reason for optimism, but that certain measures would
8 be taken within the municipality of Teslic.
9 Q. Now, I want you to look very briefly, please, as an exhibit,
10 P1953. This is a document written in September, 1993, reporting on the
11 period between September, 1991 and September, 1993. It's a report by the
12 SJB in Teslic. I just want to ask you about certain things that it says.
13 It talks about, if we look halfway down, we can see reporting the
14 joining -- Teslic on the 6th of April, joining the Krajina autonomous
15 region, and that the Teslic public security station became part of the
16 Banja Luka CSB. Before that, had it fallen under the Doboj CSB?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then I think we see the reserve police stations mobilised. Then
19 this paragraph, "Serbs in position of authority and some of the active
20 duty police helped in withdrawing weapons and equipment from military
21 depots and storing them at locations in certain villages. The vehicles
22 carrying the weapons were escorted and guarded by the police in the RSMs"
23 - whatever that may be - "This was one of the ways in which the SDS was
24 helped in its work and a preparation of the Serbian people for
25 self-defence."
Page 16577
1 Were you informed by Mr. Peresic or anyone that this is what --
2 they or the Serbs in position of authority were doing?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And then we see, after the separation of the MUP, one Croat and
5 one Muslim pledged loyalty to the Serbian MUP. Then we see the sealing of
6 the town. Then this incident, on the 17th of April, 1992, a group of
7 unidentified persons threw a hand grenade at the police employees manning
8 the checkpoint. And it goes on. Did you hear about this incident?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What effect did that have on how the non-Serb population,
11 including yourself, felt about how things were going to turn out in
12 Teslic?
13 A. Certainly, this incident that had happened aggravated the
14 situation and increased tensions among ethnic groups in Teslic. Bosniaks
15 and Croats, as I've already said, felt to be in dire straits, as if there
16 was no light at the end of the tunnel, and they could not expect any help
17 or support from those institutions that according to the constitution and
18 law were in charge of helping them.
19 Q. Thank you. Yes, you can give the document back.
20 Now, around the middle of May, did you hear the sounds of
21 artillery?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And where did those sounds come from?
24 A. Those sounds, the artillery sounds, came from the area of Teslic
25 municipality where Bosniak and Croat villages were, those villages were
Page 16578
1 Komusina, Slatina, Rajseva and Kamenica.
2 Q. Roughly how far away were they from where you lived in the Stenjak
3 area?
4 A. Roughly 8 kilometres.
5 Q. And how could you tell that it was artillery?
6 A. I had served in the Yugoslav People's Army and I was an
7 artilleryman. I was a mortar -- a member of the mortar crew, so I could
8 easily tell those sounds apart. I could easily recognise the artillery
9 sounds.
10 Q. As far as you knew -- sorry, I'll change that question. Was there
11 media reporting about these incidents?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what did the media say was happening?
14 A. Radio Teslic had already been taken over by Serbs, and according
15 to Radio Teslic, strong HOS forces were concentrated in that area,
16 together with the Green Berets, and according to those reports, the Serb
17 armed forces were carrying out operations in that area.
18 Q. Did you accept that explanation, that this was effectively an
19 attack or a gathering of the HOS, who were I think the Croatian forces,
20 and the Green Berets?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And why was that?
23 A. Up to mid-May, the locals used to come from those areas to the
24 town of Teslic. I spoke to them and they would tell me that in those
25 areas there were just local villagers who were trying to organise their
Page 16579
1 own defence in case they were to be attacked by the so-called Yugoslav
2 People's Army and other paramilitary units. So I had first-hand knowledge
3 on what was going on in this area that was under the blockade by the JNA
4 and paramilitary formations.
5 Q. After this attack or whatever one likes to call it, did people try
6 and leave the municipality? Non-Serbs, I should add.
7 A. Yes. Panic increased amongst Bosniaks and Croats in Teslic and in
8 other parts of the municipality so that already during that period, people
9 started moving out or fleeing on a larger scale, people who were fleeing
10 were Bosniaks and Croats, and they were running to the neighbouring
11 municipality of Tesanj.
12 Q. What happened if the authorities caught the people who were
13 fleeing?
14 A. The only road that one could take from Teslic was not even a road
15 but a route through the woods towards Tesanj. In that area, there were
16 already paramilitary Serbian formations which would intercept citizens,
17 search them, mistreat them, and if they were on the lists that were
18 compiled by the Crisis Staff, then they would be returned to Teslic. If
19 not, they would be allowed to proceed towards Tesanj.
20 Q. And what was happening to the people who were returned to Teslic?
21 Were they allowed to go home?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On the 26th of May, did you and others decide -- you and your
24 family and others, decide to leave?
25 A. Yes.
Page 16580
1 Q. Why did you take the decision that you had to leave?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already given us an answer to that
3 earlier on when you were asking him about the personal danger that he was
4 perceiving.
5 MS. KORNER: It was why he kept his pistol, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but it went beyond that. Any way, if you want
7 to proceed.
8 MS. KORNER: I may as well get the --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But he's mentioned that he had a wife and an
10 eight-month-old baby.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, any way.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
14 Q. What was the final, if you like, thing or combination of
15 circumstances that made you decide to leave?
16 A. On that evening, that is on the 26th of May, two or three tanks
17 stormed into Teslic. Those were JNA tanks. This increased the panic
18 among the citizens and I finally took the decision to flee Teslic and go
19 towards Tesanj. I have to be honest and say that I did not expect that
20 concentration camps would ever be open in Teslic. I did not expect that
21 there would be cruel killings. As one of the leaders of the SDA, I
22 primarily feared that I would be interrogated by the Serbian police in
23 Teslic, that I would be mistreated and that this mistreatment would be
24 more of a psychological nature but later on, when I heard what had
25 happened in Teslic to the Croats and the Bosniaks who had remained there,
Page 16581
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Page 16582
1 I found it very difficult to accept that things like that could ever have
2 happened in Teslic.
3 Q. All right. And so on the 26th of May, did yourself and others in
4 fact go through the woods and went to Tesanj?
5 A. Yes. I asked my friend, Ibro Merjamic, who was a villager of
6 Stenjak, the neighbouring village of Tesanj, I asked him to try and take
7 me through the woods to Tesanj. If you take this route through the woods
8 it would take about an hour and a half. The ten of us led by this friend
9 of mine travelled for six hours to Tesanj. We crossed various streams and
10 we managed to avoid those paramilitary formations that had been stationed
11 along that forest road from Teslic to Tesanj.
12 Q. And whilst you remained in Tesanj, as I think we've mentioned, did
13 you become the Presidency of -- the president of the War Presidency of
14 effectively Teslic in exile?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when did you return to Teslic?
17 A. After all of these developments, you mean?
18 Q. Yes, the -- after -- did you go back to Teslic after the Dayton
19 agreement?
20 A. Not yet.
21 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Osmanovic.
22 MS. KORNER: That's all I ask.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner. And I don't know if -- who
24 will be leading the cross-examination?
25 MS. BARUCH: I will be, Your Honour. Is this a good time to take
Page 16583
1 a break and then go straight through?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I was going to suggest but I think it
3 would be more convenient. How much time do you think you will require?
4 MS. BARUCH: I don't think it will be very long, Your Honour. I
5 do not think it will be very long.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, if we start -- let's take a break of
7 25 minutes in any case. We keep it at 25 minutes and we take it up from
8 there.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Baruch? Now, Witness, I should like to
12 draw your attention to a principle that -- a rule that you need to follow,
13 and that we impose here, and namely that you do not have a right to make
14 any distinction between questions coming from the Prosecution or questions
15 coming from the Defence. The accused here, personally or through his
16 lawyers, has a right o cross-examine each witness what is brought forward
17 and that necessarily entails a responsibility, an obligation, on your part
18 to answer each question that is put to you from the -- from the Defence as
19 fully and as truthfully as you can. In conformity with the solemn
20 declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony. You are
21 going to be cross-examined by Madam Baruch.
22 Madam Baruch?
23 MS. BARUCH: May it please the Court?
24 Cross-examined by Ms. Baruch:
25 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, I'm one of the lawyers for Mr. Brdjanin. I'm going
Page 16584
1 to ask you a few questions. The first is I'd like to try to understand
2 your participation in the organisation of the SDA. I believe that you
3 mentioned that in your statement that you were -- that you participated in
4 the formation. Can you tell us about that, please?
5 A. Yes. I was the president of the initiative committee to establish
6 the SDA in Teslic. Once we were aware of the fact that general and
7 democratic multi-party elections would be held in Yugoslavia, we set out
8 to establish new political organisations, so I decided to become one of
9 the initiators to establish the SDA in Teslic.
10 Q. And I noticed as well in your statement, or rather your statement
11 here today, that you are the vice-president of the Republika Srpska. Did
12 I understand that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And are you the only vice-president or is there more than
15 one vice-president?
16 A. There are two vice-presidents.
17 Q. And the ethnicity of the other vice-president is?
18 A. In accordance with the constitutional amendments, one
19 vice-president is a Bosniak and the other one is a Croat.
20 Q. So that in the Republika Srpska, all three ethnicities are
21 represented in high positions; would that be correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you tell me if you're also a minister or a secretary of
24 any sort or is your sole position that of one of the vice-presidents of
25 the RS?
Page 16585
1 A. I do not hold a position in the government of Republika Srpska.
2 According to the constitution, the Republika Srpska has a president and
3 president has its two vice-presidents, that means I do not hold any
4 positions in the government of Republika Srpska itself.
5 Q. Now, I think you haven't testified about this but other people may
6 have mentioned similar situations. I think that there was a bit of a
7 hoorah recently, that is after the year 2000, when you visited some grave
8 exhumations for Muslims who were killed during 1991 and 1992; is that
9 correct? Was there some protestations about that?
10 A. I'm not aware of any protests. Can you be more precise, please?
11 Q. Fine. I was trying to find out if anybody was disturbed because
12 you visited the exhumations, if there were any Serb protests about that,
13 because, in fact, I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to visit the
14 scene of an exhumation and show your respect. Would you agree with that?
15 A. Yes. I was present during the burial of the exhumed remains of
16 the people of Srebrenica, and this has recently taken place in Srebrenica.
17 Q. Okay. And you did not do that as any provocative or inappropriate
18 activity on your part, did you? You were merely showing your respect and
19 your concern to people of your ethnicity; isn't that true?
20 A. Yes. That burial unfortunately was attended by the officials of
21 Republika Srpska who are Muslims. We would have liked to see the
22 president and the other vice-president at that burial. I attended as one
23 of the vice-presidents of Republika Srpska. I was invited, as such, by
24 the organisers.
25 Q. Thank you. I think this would be an appropriate point to remind
Page 16586
1 you to listen carefully to my questions because we can go a whole lot
2 faster if you answer the specific question that I ask. Now, you said that
3 you had some conversations with Mr. Peresic, who was the president of the
4 Teslic Municipal Assembly, and I think you told us that Mr. Peresic was a
5 member of the SDS. Did I hear you correctly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The reason that I'm asking that, Mr. Osmanovic, is because I've
8 heard that he was a member and maybe even is still a member of the SDP
9 party. Have you ever heard that?
10 A. He was a member of the League of Communists in the former
11 Yugoslavia before the elections that took place in November, 1990. After
12 that, he was a member of the SDS, as far as I know he was never a member
13 of the SDP.
14 Q. Is that because you considered him a member of the SDS or because
15 you know some specific fact situation associating him with the SDS and not
16 the SDP?
17 A. He was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party and he was on its
18 list for municipal deputies. He was on the SDS list. He represented the
19 SDS as one of its candidates for the deputies in the municipal assembly.
20 Q. Okay. Now, I referred you to conversations that you reported
21 having with Mr. Peresic, and one of those conversations was with regard to
22 why Serbs did not want to leave Yugoslavia, and become part of a new,
23 independent Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you remember being asked about that
24 when you gave your statement?
25 A. Yes.
Page 16587
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Page 16588
1 Q. And is it correct that Mr. Peresic told you that the Serbs did not
2 want to find themselves a minority in an independent Bosnia controlled by
3 Muslims and Croats? Did he indicate that to you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, when the JNA came to the town of Teslic to take the reserve
6 military records, you've told us generally that the people of the town
7 prevented them from doing it on the first occasion. Do you recall that
8 event?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell me, was that all citizens of every ethnicity in
11 Teslic prevented him from doing that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm sorry, I said preventing him; I meant preventing the JNA.
14 Thank you for understanding my question.
15 So, can you tell me how these citizens of every ethnicity from
16 Teslic that prevented the taking of the reserve list, military reserve
17 lists, can you tell me how they were able to block the army of their
18 country?
19 A. Once the news spread in Teslic that the officers of the JNA had
20 arrived in the Secretariat for National Defence in order to take over the
21 records -- and before that, we heard on the television that such things
22 had already happened in other municipalities, the civilians had already
23 been informed about that and what was happening with the records. After
24 that, there was a spontaneous rally of the city population in Teslic
25 municipality, and as I've already told you, they prevented the JNA from
Page 16589
1 doing what they wanted to do. They threw themselves in front of the
2 vehicles of the JNA and the building of the Secretariat for National
3 Defence was blocked by the bodies of these people. There was also the
4 police there, members of the public security station were there, so the
5 whole situation bordered on an incident, an incident was threatening to
6 escalate from that.
7 Q. Did any of the citizens arm themselves for that event, that you
8 know of?
9 A. I don't have that information.
10 Q. Okay. And you said -- by the way, you said that the next -- that
11 night or the next night, the JNA was able to get the information from the
12 People's Defence headquarters because you believe there was a Serb
13 employee on duty that night? Is that right?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he said it already. He did say it already.
15 MS. BARUCH:
16 Q. Okay. My question to you is wasn't the head of the People's
17 Defence at that time a Muslim?
18 A. Yes. But in the Secretariat, after regular working hours, there
19 had to be persons on duty, and everybody who was employed at the
20 Secretariat had their turn.
21 Q. Okay. But assignments were made by the head of that department;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Yes. The secretary of the Secretariat still abided by the
24 principle that there had to be a roster as to when who would be on duty,
25 irrespective of ethnicity.
Page 16590
1 Q. And that was the man, Degirmendzic; is that right? Mensur
2 Degirmendzic? Is that right? He was head of the department?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You also talked about later there were about a hundred soldiers,
5 headed by Veljko Bosanac, stationed at Djulici -- I hope I'm pronouncing
6 that in a way that you can understand it. Do you remember the month of
7 that assignment?
8 A. It was the second half of 1991.
9 Q. Okay. And was that the time that JNA troops were leaving Slovenia
10 and Croatia?
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. So that the JNA troops who had previously been stationed in
13 Slovenia or Croatia would have to find another place to be stationed,
14 correct?
15 A. In a certain sense, yes.
16 Q. Okay. And when you were saying that now it happened that 100 JNA
17 soldiers - and they were JNA soldiers at that time - were stationed in
18 Teslic municipality, "they never gave us an explanation," who would you
19 have expected to give you an explanation with regard to the JNA forces'
20 assignments?
21 A. We expected the president of the assembly to convene all the
22 persons in charge in the municipality, the head of the public security
23 station, the chief of police, this Major Bosanac, and to seek information
24 in this regard. It was to be expected that this would be dealt with by a
25 session of the municipal assembly.
Page 16591
1 Q. And in fact, what had occurred is JNA headquarters had -- in
2 Belgrade, had ordered the assignment of those JNA troops to Teslic
3 municipality; isn't that true?
4 A. Yes, but as for conditions for a longer stay of these JNA units,
5 there weren't any in the local commune of Djulici, in this make-shift
6 barracks.
7 Q. So is what you just told me that the barracks that they were
8 actually stationed at, in, were not designed to be permanent barracks but
9 merely almost the temporary make-shift place for them to stay? Is that
10 what you just said?
11 A. It's a military facility.
12 Q. But you used the word "make-shift."
13 A. It's a military facility that was used when there was mobilisation
14 in Doboj, Teslic, and even beyond. This is where reservists stayed for a
15 certain amount of time. So these are prefabricated buildings. That's why
16 I used the word.
17 Q. Okay. And in amongst those hundred soldiers, were there any
18 Bosniaks in that unit? That is, people of Muslim ethnicity.
19 A. I don't have that information.
20 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Osmanovic. I think you just said you don't
21 know instead of guessing, and thank you, I hope you can continue to do
22 that. It's very helpful to the Court.
23 You said in your statement that there was even an area where they
24 trained nearby. Would you agree with me that it is useful and regular for
25 soldiers to continue their training periodically and that there is nothing
Page 16592
1 suspicious about soldiers training?
2 A. Yes. But there were reservists at that training.
3 Q. Were there any Muslim reservists at that training?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Is that because the Muslim reservists had refused mobilisation?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Now, you said in your statement that, "We learned that
8 their presence was to arm the Serbian civilian population." Can you tell
9 me who learned that?
10 A. We received that information from our local people who were moving
11 around in that area. This area is populated by Serbs only, so these
12 citizens of ours had received information from citizens who were of Serb
13 ethnicity as to what had been going on in the area.
14 Q. So is what you're telling the Court what you learned was not
15 directly from any official source but you heard it from someone who heard
16 it from somebody else who was just moving around in the area and gleaning
17 information? Is that correct?
18 A. Yes. Obviously, nobody felt it was necessary to provide anybody
19 else with official information, anybody who was in position of authority
20 from among the Bosniaks and the Croats in the municipality of Teslic.
21 Q. So people who you knew, Muslims in Teslic, getting pieces of
22 information from Serbs in that area where there were no Muslims, discussed
23 this amongst themselves and that's how you learned the purpose of the JNA
24 being there? Would that be correct?
25 A. Yes. That is correct. Until then, the training of reservists had
Page 16593
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 16594
1 never taken place in that way in a particular area.
2 Q. And in fact, you had not had JNA stationed in that particular area
3 in the past; isn't that true?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, the Prosecutor asked you to look at P1925 and I would
6 like you to look at that document again.
7 MS. BARUCH: Now, Your Honours, I didn't prepare a list because I
8 didn't know which documents Ms. Korner was going to use and I see that the
9 bailiff has those records easily available.
10 Q. So Mr. Osmanovic, could you look specifically at the second page
11 of that agenda item? Because you drew a conclusion with regard to
12 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1925 and specifically paragraph 1.8. I think you'll
13 agree that I'm reading this correctly when I say it says, "All
14 paramilitary formations and individuals illegally possessing arms" and you
15 can read the rest of those sentences. It does say that even in B/C/S,
16 doesn't it?
17 MS. KORNER: I agree.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You don't need to answer it because the
19 Prosecution agrees.
20 MS. BARUCH: Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, the reason that I directed your attention to that
22 is because I believe you had indicated in your direct examination that the
23 paramilitaries in the area were Serb paramilitaries; is that correct?
24 A. No.
25 Q. There were paramilitaries who were Muslim in the area of Teslic,
Page 16595
1 inside the municipality?
2 A. As you said, this referred to all paramilitary formations, and it
3 was addressed by the Crisis Staff of Teslic and there were no Bosniaks or
4 Croats on the Crisis Staff. They thought that the present units of the
5 Yugoslav People's Army along with the reservists who were undergoing
6 training were legal and legitimate forces in the territory of the
7 municipality of Teslic. They also considered the public security station
8 and its policemen to be legal and legitimate. In their view, this call
9 referred to the Bosniak and Croat population only.
10 Q. Now, I did not ask what somebody's internal thinking process and
11 what their view may have been. My question to you was with regard to the
12 paramilitary organisations operating within the Teslic municipality.
13 Can't you agree with me that there were Serb paramilitary organisations
14 operating within the Teslic municipality? There were such paramilitaries,
15 weren't there?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. And the wording of this agenda item, 1.8, doesn't limit itself to
18 certain paramilitary organisations, and I'll get back to that in a minute.
19 It says all paramilitary formations, doesn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you raised a question in my mind. Were there, to your
22 knowledge, Muslim, Bosniak, paramilitary operatives in the municipality of
23 Teslic at that time?
24 A. In that period, in the territory of the municipality of Teslic,
25 there was self-organisation among the Bosniak and Croat populations in
Page 16596
1 certain villages only. That is to say, to put up resistance if they are
2 attacked.
3 Q. Okay. So we are talking in May of 1992, about paramilitary
4 organisations in Teslic that were Bosniak or Muslim, whom you have
5 described as self-organisation; is that right? When you use
6 self-organisation, you mean they formed paramilitary organisations?
7 A. To put it in a certain way, this was defence of Bosniak and Croat
8 villages. That is to say self-organisation on the part of that section of
9 the population.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mrs. Baruch. It's my impression that
11 you're trying to answer this question tangentially. The question is a
12 very simple one and a very direct one. Do you see any distinction at all
13 in your mind between what has been referred to you as a paramilitary
14 organisation and what you have described as self-organisation for the
15 purposes of defence? It's being suggested to you that these are one and
16 the same thing, paramilitaries and self-organised groups. Would you agree
17 with that proposition or not?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, the Bosniak and the
19 Croat population was completely pushed out of the police, out of the
20 Yugoslav People's Army that was present in Teslic. They embarked upon
21 this form of self-defence only if the police and these units went and
22 attacked their villages. Somebody can consider that to be defence or a
23 way of self-organisation in case of an attack.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's as far as you're going to get, Mrs. Baruch,
25 so move to the next question.
Page 16597
1 MS. BARUCH: I suspect the Court is right.
2 Q. You have talked before about people who were acting in a way to
3 defend themselves because the Bosniaks were no longer a part of the police
4 and had refused mobilisation, and you talked about that when Ms. Korner
5 referred you to P1953. And you can tell me if you need that document
6 again, but it's a very small piece that I'm referring to, because -- and
7 I'll read that to you. It says, "The enemy forces could not resign
8 themselves to do this and the first to come under attack were the members
9 of the Serbian MUP. In the evening of April 17th, 1992, a group of
10 unidentified persons threw a hand grenade at the police employees manning
11 the Margita checkpoint." Those people manning that checkpoint were Serb;
12 correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the unidentified persons who threw a hand gun -- a hand
15 grenade at the police employees, you would agree that they were non-Serbs;
16 isn't that true?
17 A. No. I cannot agree. I don't know. There never had been a
18 definite investigation in this regard.
19 Q. Well, either they were Serbs throwing grenades at Serbs, in which
20 case some Serbs had illegal weapons, or they were non-Serbs throwing a
21 grenade at Serbs, in which case there were non-Serbs having an illegal
22 weapon, and so directing your attention again back to P1925, when, on the
23 agenda item, it said, "All paramilitary formations and individuals
24 illegally possessing arms and ammunition are called upon to hand them over
25 to the municipal TO," and so that section of the agenda was directed at
Page 16598
1 all citizens, wasn't it?
2 A. That's what it says in this document.
3 Q. Okay. And the reason that I direct you back to P1925 again is
4 that you felt that by reading it, you could explain that it was only
5 directed at Serbs and Croats because the police were legally armed and the
6 TO was legally armed, but there were people in Teslic who were illegally
7 armed at that time, weren't there?
8 A. As I've already said, this is the first time I see this document.
9 Unfortunately, I was not made aware of it before that, but certainly there
10 were people in Teslic who were in the possession of weapons, illegally and
11 legally.
12 Q. Okay. And as well, you heard over the radio, over the radio, an
13 announcement that all people in Teslic should turn in their illegal
14 weapons; isn't that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you said in your statement that there was never any resistance
17 to the Serbs, and a portion of citizens turned in their weapons. But I've
18 heard you talk today about resistance to authorities. I've heard you say
19 today that there were people who had illegal weapons, and there were
20 Muslims who self-organised for groups that you described as, to defend
21 themselves?
22 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm sorry, that's a mistake, with respect.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I'm sorry, if that's suggested that
25 wasn't in the statement, it's actually in the statement. If Ms. Baruch
Page 16599
1 has a look at page 8, she will see there is a paragraph which begins:
2 "There was never any resistance --" and if she reads on it says,
3 "Villagers in the Teslic municipality were less likely to turn in their
4 weapons and there was some organisation of these villagers into defence
5 forces for their areas but eventually, I think, almost every one turned in
6 their weapon."
7 MS. BARUCH:
8 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Osmanovic, that there was resistance in Teslic,
9 such as the throwing of the hand grenade at the police? Isn't that
10 correct?
11 A. There was no resistance in terms of carrying out this order or
12 proclamation of the Crisis Staff. A significant number of citizens,
13 particularly in town, returned the weapons that they had had legally.
14 Q. Well, I understand that what you're saying that people who were
15 law-abiding citizens, who had registered their guns and had them legally
16 were also turning in their weapons; is that what you're trying to tell us?
17 A. I've already said that in the territory of the municipality of
18 Teslic, there were many things that were going on that were not in
19 accordance with the law so this was not in accordance with the law but
20 many people handed over their weapons, primarily Bosniaks and Croats,
21 because they wanted a peaceful solution to be found within the territory
22 of the municipality.
23 Q. Do you know that there were searches of homes for illegal weapons?
24 Do you know that that occurred?
25 A. While I was in the territory of the municipality of Teslic, there
Page 16600
1 were no searches of homes for weapons. Later on, according to the
2 information that I received while I was in Tesanj, such things did take
3 place.
4 Q. Did you hear that a police officer was killed when a grenade
5 exploded that had been set up as a trap while they were searching a home
6 for illegal weapons? Did you learn that while you were in Tesanj?
7 A. No. I didn't hear that.
8 Q. You've talked about a list of people to be watched. Have you ever
9 seen a -- such a written list?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You have seen that list?
12 A. Unfortunately, I only saw that list once the Dayton Accords were
13 signed. It was published in the newspapers, on the territory of Republika
14 Srpska. It was published in an independent newspaper, and that was
15 something that was not good for editor of that paper.
16 Q. It was published in the Republika Srpska, in which newspaper,
17 please?
18 A. An independent newspaper, whose owner was a journalist Kopanja.
19 After this article, that was published over a few issues, he had his car
20 blown up and he was severely injured as a result of that. He became
21 disabled.
22 Q. Can you tell me when that was?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And the name of the newspaper, please?
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour we have a lot of information about that,
Page 16601
1 rather than asking the witness to try and remember, we can provide the
2 name of the newspaper and the date.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.
4 MS. BARUCH:
5 Q. Can I get some idea of the date now, Your Honour, if he knows?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, it's perfectly legitimate question.
7 MS. BARUCH:
8 Q. Can you tell me the date?
9 A. Unfortunately, it is a well-known thing when this happened. It
10 was either in 1999 or 2000. This newspaper confirmed all the information
11 that we had previously received. My name was also in that newspaper.
12 Q. It was a list of names; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, you talked in your statement about some violence occurring
15 regarding the Muslim, Albanian pastry shop. And I think you told us today
16 that there was a mechanism for putting things on the agenda at the Teslic
17 municipality. Did you attempt to put that matter on the agenda?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And was it voted to be placed on the agenda?
20 A. The president of the municipal assembly was of the opinion that
21 this should not have been put on the agenda. He thought that the
22 discussion on the political and security situation in Teslic could
23 aggravate the tensions among the deputies. He as the person who was in
24 charge of proposing items for the agenda, thought this should not have
25 been put often the agenda. The deputies who belonged to my political
Page 16602
1 party did raise this issue but we could never obtain a qualified majority
2 in favour of putting this on the agenda.
3 Q. Can you just help me with one thing, then? Was -- am I correctly
4 remembering that the SDA -- I'm sorry, SDS, had 48 per cent of the
5 municipal assembly at that time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So the majority of people were not SDS. The majority of the
8 people were the coalition of other parties that made up the other 52 per
9 cent; correct?
10 A. No.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a captious question, Madam Baruch. You're
12 using the word coalition. No one suggested that the remaining 52 per cent
13 was coalesced or had a coalition in operation between them.
14 MS. BARUCH: I'm sorry, if the question suggested it, I can
15 rephrase the question, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Rephrase it, please.
17 MS. BARUCH:
18 Q. So the other 52 per cent of the assembly -- at least 3 per cent of
19 them agreed with the president of the assembly that it should not get on
20 the agenda; is that correct?
21 A. A parliamentary majority, or the coalition in Teslic, was made up
22 of the SDS, the HDZ and the SDA. That was the majority. When the SDA
23 deputies proposed that this should be put on the agenda, this could not be
24 done without the deputies of the SDS.
25 Q. I thought that you had instructed us today that any item could be
Page 16603
1 put on the agenda by a majority vote. Did I get that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that 48 per cent of the deputies were SDS. I've got that
4 right as well; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So if the other deputies who were not SDS, who agreed that it
7 should go on the agenda, it could have gotten on the agenda; correct?
8 A. But there were SDS -- there were Serb representatives in other
9 parties, like the SDP, the reformists, and some Serbian deputies were not
10 supportive of that.
11 Q. Okay?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put the question straight and clear. Those
13 who had an interest to have this included in the agenda, were they in the
14 majority or in a minority at that point in time?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the voting, it turned out
16 that they were a minority.
17 MS. BARUCH:
18 Q. Thank you. And one other thing. I thought I read that the
19 commander of the police was a man by the name of Ferid Mahalbasic; is that
20 correct?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was the commander of the police a Bosniak?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Because I may have said his name wrong or picked the wrong name.
25 Okay. So when something would have to be investigated at that time, there
Page 16604
1 was at least a commander of the police who would have input into the
2 investigation, at that time?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to complement this, according to him in his
4 statement, and I think he did repeat that earlier on today, the commander
5 of the police was Sabahudin Mehmedovic.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: While the chief of public security was Dusan
8 Kuzmanovic.
9 MS. BARUCH:
10 Q. So when an investigation had to be done early on there was a
11 Bosniak who had input into such investigations; isn't that correct?
12 A. In keeping with the law, this should have been the case.
13 Q. And do you know who was the commander of the police when that
14 Muslim-Albanian pastry shop suffered an explosion?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And his name, please?
17 A. Sabahudin Mehmedovic.
18 Q. The name that I mentioned before; is that correct?
19 A. You've mentioned the name of Ferid Mahalbasic.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. He is right.
21 MS. BARUCH: I'm sorry.
22 Q. It was Sabahudin Mehmedovic. And he was the commander at the time
23 that the Albanian shop exploded and he had at least some input into the
24 investigation of that event; is that correct?
25 A. He complained to me that his work was obstructed, that there was
Page 16605
1 nothing whatsoever he could do with that respect.
2 Q. Well, do you know that there was any information gathered as to
3 who had done that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. On page 6 of your statement, you said that in April of
6 1992, the Teslic municipal authority met to discuss the joining of the
7 municipality to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you
8 weren't informed of that, and you said despite the fact that you believed
9 the meeting was statutorily illegal, despite that they met, after getting
10 orders from Pale?
11 MS. KORNER: To be accurate, he didn't say he believed it was
12 statutorily illegal. He said that it was statutorily illegal.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, she is right, but he said so because he
14 believed so.
15 MS. BARUCH: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Despite that you indicate they met after getting orders from Pale.
17 Tell me about that. How do you know about that?
18 A. First of all, I talked about the way the Municipal Assembly of
19 Teslic should have worked.
20 Q. Excuse me, I thought we had a deal that I would -- you would try
21 to answer my question, okay? And my question really goes to the orders
22 from Pale. So can you tell me how you know about that?
23 A. This way of calling the sessions of the municipal assembly should
24 have been preceded by instructions from a centre, and I also learned about
25 that from my friends who had good relations with the Serbs who were
Page 16606
1 employed in municipal organs.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That will be the last question for today. Do
3 you have much longer, Mrs. Baruch?
4 MS. BARUCH: I never like to promise a court because I try to be
5 as honest as I can. I cannot promise it would be short.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Shall we finish with the witness
7 tomorrow?
8 MS. BARUCH: Yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
10 MS. KORNER: Only on the question of Mr. Sebire, I understand
11 from --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I was coming to that actually.
13 MS. KORNER: -- from Ms. Baruch, that Mr. Ackerman's, I don't know
14 if consent is the right word, but acquiescence to the plan to call
15 Mr. Sebire on Friday, he is happy for him to be called in chief but would
16 prefer cross-examination to be adjourned in which case, Your Honour, we
17 are, subject to Your Honour we are content with that. We would ask that
18 the cross-examination occur on Tuesday, the 10th of June, because of
19 problems of getting a witness.
20 MS. BARUCH: Is that the original scheduled date?
21 MS. KORNER: That was the original scheduled date for him to be
22 called.
23 MS. BARUCH: Yes, thank you, and Mr. Ackerman was very pleased
24 with the compromise of the court. Thank you for suggesting it, Your
25 Honour.
Page 16607
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That's how it will be. Mr. Sebire will
2 attend -- come over on Friday.
3 MS. KORNER: He comes down, in fact, Your Honour, as opposed to
4 over.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: For the examination-in-chief. Cross-examination
6 will be held in the course of the sitting of the 10th of June.
7 We are now handing down a decision on documents 1937, 1940, 1950.
8 Our decision is: Having looked at the documents and in conformity with
9 the previous decision and the practice of this Tribunal, that we cannot --
10 that there is nothing on the face of these documents that a priori would
11 make it incumbent on this Tribunal to declare them inadmissible at this
12 stage so they are -- they are being admitted with the usual caveat that
13 the probative value will be assigned to them as we go along, depending on
14 what the evidence will be on them, as well as on other matters.
15 The last thing is we had discussed very, very briefly, although I
16 did get an indication that this would not materialise but I want to make
17 sure, we had discussed sometime last week the possibility of working
18 extended hours next week. The week of the 2nd to the 6th. Which we are
19 very well prepared to do, in order to try and recover some lost time. I
20 know that Mr. Ackerman should be back amongst us next week. Are you in a
21 position to enlighten us on this matter, Mrs. Baruch
22 MS. BARUCH: I would ask this Court, I would implore this Court
23 that if we have to catch up time, perhaps we can do it later on but that
24 will be his first week back here. In additionally I have a question, we
25 have not been informed that we have a new case manager but the Court
Page 16608
1 stated something to that effect yesterday.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I was informally informed.
3 MS. BARUCH: So we should expect some kind of a decision
4 communicated to us soon but as the Court knows, at this time we are
5 working without somebody who speaks B/C/S in the team. So that
6 communicating with our client has to be scheduled in advance and so I
7 would ask not, please not at this time.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner?
9 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, as Your Honour knows, we are
10 anxious that if we have to try and complete our case by the 1st of August,
11 that we sit as much as possible. But clearly, I mean --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think.
13 MS. KORNER: I see --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: What Mrs. Baruch has said deserves understanding.
15 And I think for the time being, we will forget about sitting extended
16 hours next week. And we'll take the matter up again as we go along.
17 Please try tomorrow to ensure that we finish with this witness so
18 that he can return home and we can start with Mr. Sebire on Friday.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I, while you've just dealt with the
20 exhibits, very quickly just so Your Honours can make a note of Exhibit
21 P1942 and for this reason. Your Honour will recall that in other
22 exhibits, there has been a query about who this man Milos was.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it was mentioned by one witness. Milos was
24 identified by one witness before we broke --
25 MS. KORNER: Maybe I missed it but anyhow there is a clear
Page 16609
1 indication however, that whoever was using the pseudonym Milos was an
2 employee of the SMB, which was the security services. But you will
3 remember right at the beginning there was a lot of discussion about this.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. All right. And I think also we are told that
5 it was a pseudonym.
6 MS. KORNER: It is. It's an operative name.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't remember the name of the witness who said
8 it, to be frank with you, I don't remember.
9 So that's it. We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
10 And that will be a usual sitting right through 1.45. Thank you and have a
11 nice day.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
13 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
14 the 29th day of May, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.
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