1 Tuesday, 3 June 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you are following what I am saying in
14 a language that you can understand.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: If at any time that doesn't happen, please let me
18 Appearances for the Prosecution.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning, Your Honours. Anna Richterova for
20 the Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, and thank you.
22 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.
24 I'm here with David Cunningham and Lidija Lacroix who is substituting
25 today as an interpreter for us. I would ask in advance your permission to
1 leave at some point during the morning, and I don't know whether I'll do
2 that or not, but I'm not feeling particularly well today --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You feel free. Even if you want to leave now,
4 Mr. Ackerman, you have the Court's -- the Tribunal's -- the Chamber's
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I think Mr. Cunningham is prepared for the
7 witnesses today and can probably carry forward without too much difficulty
8 in my absence, so I may depart. I may start feeling better in a few
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. By the way, may I ask
11 you if the binders did arrive yesterday? Did you get your binders, your
12 documents, Mr. Brdjanin, handed over to you in the afternoon?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, last night. Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
15 And the interpreter, I suppose, she knows what her job is. You're
16 the go-between, actually, the channel of communication between the accused
17 and counsel for today. And you will treat that in strict confidence,
18 because these are communications that are authorised to be strictly
19 confidential. Thank you.
20 So any preliminaries on your part, on your part? So let's bring
21 the witness in, please. 7.50?
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: 7.55.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.55, yes.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Tenic, and welcome to this
1 Tribunal. Can you follow what I am saying in a language that you can
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this your first time in this Tribunal, first time
5 you're giving evidence before this Tribunal?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first time.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So I will need to explain a few things to you. The
8 first one being a very simple one, but it's the most important part for
9 us. The lady who is standing next to you will be handing you a piece of
10 paper on which there is the text of a solemn declaration that you are
11 required to make here before you start giving evidence. It's the
12 equivalent of an oath, an undertaking which you make with this Tribunal
13 that in the course of your testimony you will speak the truth, the whole
14 truth, and nothing but the truth. So I invite you to take that document
15 in your hands, read the statement aloud, and that will be your solemn
17 WITNESS: MEHMED TENIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down. What's going to
22 happen, Mr. Tenic, is that Madam Richterova, who is to your right and who
23 is leading the Prosecution today, will put to you a series of questions.
24 She will then be followed by Mr. Cunningham, the gentleman in the middle
25 front row here, who is defending Mr. Brdjanin, who is the accused in this
1 trial. I don't know if you've ever given evidence anywhere else before in
2 your life, but the important thing that I need to explain to you is the
3 following: That first you need to answer each and every question that is
4 put to you, irrespective of whether it's being asked by the Prosecution or
5 by the Defence, as fully and as truthfully as possible. No one expects
6 you to know everything or to be a walking encyclopedia on the events that
7 we're talking about, but what you know you must tell us, if you are asked
8 the appropriate question. That's number one.
9 Number two is: Please, if you really want to leave this Tribunal
10 today and return to your home, please try to answer each question as
11 briefly as possible. Don't answer more than you are asked. Just answer
12 the question, the whole question, and nothing but the question. All
13 right? Have you understood me?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I have.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You have.
16 So Madam Richterova will now take you over and start with her
17 series of questions.
19 Examined by Ms. Richterova:
20 Q. Good morning, Witness. Would you be so kind and state your full
22 A. Good morning. I am Mehmed Tenic.
23 Q. Mr. Tenic, is it correct that you were born on 11 of September,
24 1957, in Teslic?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. Your ethnic origin is Bosniak and your religion is Islam?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. You lived part of your life in the village of Barici, and later
4 you moved to Teslic town; is it correct?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. Now I would like you to tell us something about the year 1991 and
7 1992, because we have already heard here the general information about the
8 development in Teslic municipality. So I will ask you only a few
9 questions relevant to this period of time.
10 In your statement, you mentioned dismissals. Can you tell us:
11 What do you know about dismissals, when they occurred, if they occurred?
12 A. Well, what I know about dismissals, about people being fired from
13 their jobs, well, something I know from my personal experience, and I also
14 had this feeling, that is, I suddenly realised that people were
15 disappearing all of a sudden from their jobs.
16 Q. You said that you know something from your personal experience.
17 So can you be more specific? Did you know anybody who would be dismissed?
18 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know the name of anyone, but I know
19 it because -- you see, the man was missing from work and then you ask:
20 Where is he? And mm [phoen], you know -- I mean, a man is simply not
21 needed any longer.
22 Q. And you also stated that people started disappearing from their
23 jobs. What did you mean exactly by "disappearing"? Did they just stop
24 working or just did they disappear from Teslic?
25 A. No. They didn't disappear from Teslic, but they did not work any
1 more. I worked for a company and I saw suddenly that those people who
2 held executive posts were gone. Earlier on, there were Muslims and Croats
3 there, but then gradually their numbers started decreasing.
4 Q. And when you are stating there were Muslims and Croats there, but
5 then gradually their numbers started decreasing, are you referring to
6 Muslims in executive posts or just generally Muslims and Croats in that
8 A. People who held executive posts, more important posts.
9 Q. Now I would like to move to the TO. You were a member of the
10 Territorial Defence; is it correct?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. Until when you were a member of the TO?
13 A. I was its member until about the end -- no. Until about mid-1991.
14 Q. And what happened in mid-1991?
15 A. I had to return the uniform, my military uniform, to the
16 secretariat for -- no. Well, the Territorial Defence.
17 Q. And was it only you or were there some other people who had to do
18 the same?
19 A. I don't know much about it. I couldn't say that I know a number
20 of people, because I had to return it, and later on I heard that some
21 other people had to do the same.
22 Q. And can we be again more specific? These people who had to return
23 the uniforms, were they Muslim, Croats, or Serbs, or all three nations?
24 A. Concretely, Muslims and Croats.
25 Q. And do you know whether the members of TO had to also hand over
1 the weapons?
2 A. As a member of the Territorial Defence, I would be issued with a
3 weapon in case I was called for an exercise or something like that,
4 because that was it. After you've done your military service, everybody
5 who completed the service with the Yugoslav People's Army, after - I don't
6 know - after returning from the army, he would be issued with this gear or
7 become - I don't know - a member of the Territorial Defence. And then
8 once or twice per year, as need be, one goes out for exercises or
9 something. I wouldn't be able to tell you more.
10 Q. So in fact, you, as a member of Territorial Defence, you didn't
11 have weapon; you got it only when participated at some trainings. Is it
13 A. It is.
14 Q. And do you know whether police reservists were in possession of
16 A. Members of the reserve police had their weapons, of course.
17 Q. And to your knowledge, at the time when you had to hand over your
18 uniforms, was it the case that reserve policemen had to hand over their
19 uniforms and their weapons?
20 A. I wouldn't know that.
21 Q. Now I want to ask you about Crisis Staff. To your knowledge, was
22 there any such an institution like Crisis Staff in Teslic?
23 A. From what I know, all I know about the Crisis Staff in Teslic is
24 what I heard from my father-in-law, who was friends with Mirko Devic.
25 They were kums, bestmen at each other's weddings. They both liked to have
1 a glass or two.
2 Q. And what did they -- what did you learn from your father-in-law
3 about the Crisis Staff? Just answer me this question.
4 A. He told me that kum Mirko had caused him great pain today. And I
5 said: What happened? And he said: Well, kum told me that I couldn't go
6 to the pub with him because they were having a meeting of the Crisis
8 Q. Who were the members of Crisis Staff, or what was the purpose of
9 Crisis Staff? Did you learn anything about this from your father-in-law?
10 A. I wouldn't know that. I know nothing about it.
11 Q. Mr. Tenic, do you remember that sometime in 1992 there would be a
12 special police or military unit which would arrive to Teslic from some
13 other area?
14 A. I remember it. Towards the end of May, a unit arrived from the
15 direction of Teslic. Men or boys. I didn't know who they were or what
16 they were. Later on I learnt that they were Red Berets.
17 Q. Mr. Tenic, you said they arrived from the direction of Teslic.
18 Did you mean to say from direction of Teslic? Because I asked you whether
19 they arrived to Teslic, into Teslic.
20 A. I'm saying that that unit came from the direction of Doboj.
21 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Tenic. It was just -- I have to follow
22 the transcript, what you are stating, and the translation was "from
23 direction of Teslic."
24 You said that they were Red Berets. Did you know who was the
1 A. Not at that time.
2 Q. And did you learn at some later stage who was their commander?
3 A. Later on I did learn that.
4 Q. And what was the name?
5 A. I know his nickname. I know people called him Piko.
6 Q. And after this Red Berets arrived, what did you see? Were you in
7 the town at the time when the Red Berets arrived?
8 A. I was in the town then. They beat everybody, didn't ask who it
9 was, what -- who the person was, what the person was. They simply beat
10 all around.
11 Q. So they were beating Muslims, Croats, and Serbs?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Before I will go on, I want to ask you something about arming. Do
14 you know whether, during the year of 1991 or first half of 1992, whether
15 Serbs, Croats, or Muslims were arming themselves?
16 A. I don't know that.
17 Q. Did you see people carrying weapons openly in Teslic or in the
18 surrounding villages?
19 A. In Teslic, I saw the reserve policemen carrying arms openly, and I
20 did not see anything in the villages.
21 Q. I would like to show you one document. It is Exhibit P1925.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: If we could place the English version on the ELMO
23 and B/C/S version you can give to the witness. And if we could place the
24 second page, please, on the ELMO.
25 Q. Mr. Tenic, if you could have a look at the paragraph 1.8. In
1 English version it is second page on the top. And it says: "All
2 paramilitary formations and individuals illegally possessing arms and
3 ammunition are called up and to hand them over to the municipal TO staff
4 or the nearest military unit immediately or by no later than 15 hours on
5 11 May, 1992. After the expiry of this deadline, responsible organs will
6 search and confiscate arms and ammunition, applying the most rigorous
8 And this document was issued by Teslic municipality Crisis Staff
9 on 6 May 1992. The signature is Nikola Perisic.
10 Mr. Tenic, do you know whether there was some announcement to hand
11 over weapons in the Teslic municipality?
12 A. There was an order for those who had weapons to return them. That
13 was in Teslic. I didn't see that announcement. I only heard about this
14 from some people from my village, you know. There was this disarming.
15 Q. So you heard from someone in your village, and is it correct that
16 you are referring to the village of Barici?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you heard from people in the village of Barici that there was
19 such an announcement?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And to your knowledge, did people hand over their weapons?
22 A. That is something I don't know.
23 Q. Were there any weapons in Barici or in some other places?
24 A. I don't know that either.
25 Q. And did you at least hear that people from some villages would
1 refuse to hand over the weapons?
2 A. Yes, I did. I heard that.
3 Q. And from which villages?
4 A. Rankovici village and Slatina, or Komusina village.
5 Q. And do you know what happened after they refused to hand over
6 their weapons?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Mr. Tenic, when we read this paragraph, there was that "after the
9 expiry of this deadline, responsible organs will search and confiscate the
10 arms." To your knowledge, were there any searches, either in Barici or in
11 some other villages?
12 A. I saw that in Barici. I experienced that.
13 Q. So what can you tell us about these searches?
14 A. In Barici, in my village, on that day when they arrived to carry
15 out searches --
16 Q. Mr. Tenic, I will -- I will stop you for a second. I know that it
17 happened many years ago. Would you approximately remember the date? And
18 when you are saying "they arrived," who you are referring to.
19 A. I am referring to the army and the Red Berets.
20 Q. And you are referring to army. Are you referring to the Serb army
21 or JNA?
22 A. I wouldn't know exactly, but the reserve troops of the Serbian
23 army did not have tanks.
24 Q. So were they regular soldiers?
25 A. I'm not sure, but I believe so.
1 Q. Did you, at the time when they entered your village, did you
2 recognise any one of them?
3 A. I recognised some people from the reserve policemen.
4 Q. And can you tell us the names of these people who you recognised?
5 A. Tomo Mihajlovic, and there was another man whose nickname I know.
6 I know that he was a regular policeman in Blatnica, and they called him
8 Q. And apart from Tomo Mihajlovic, did you name somebody else whose
9 name you know?
10 A. Nobody else.
11 Q. And now can you tell us approximately when this happened, the
13 A. On the 3rd or on the 4th.
14 Q. And 3rd or the 4th of which month?
15 A. May -- I apologise. The 3rd or the 4th of June.
16 Q. Yes. Thank you. So you stated that the soldiers, and also you
17 now stated that there were reserve policemen, they entered your village on
18 4th of June. What happened after they entered the village?
19 A. Everybody had to stand in front of their house. They had to have
20 some piece of identification on them, either an ID or a passport. They
21 would then enter the houses. What they were looking for, I don't know.
22 They ransacked all the houses and they did it house after house.
23 Q. And after they finished searching houses, what happened then?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. And what happened to you that day?
1 A. I had an ID with my address on it, my place of residence in
2 Teslic. It was Proleterskih Brigada Number 7. And the guy told me: What
3 are you doing here? I told him that I was here visiting my father, that
4 there was nothing to eat down there, that I didn't have any food. Then he
5 told me that I should have been in Teslic rather than here. He kicked me
6 very strongly, and then, after that, I don't remember anything.
7 Then I got up and I heard another order, and the order was for me
8 to run towards the cemetery.
9 Q. And you were ordered to run towards the cemetery. Were there more
10 men or was it only you who was running?
11 A. All the men were asked to run.
12 Q. And you said that after you were hit, you do not remember
13 anything. Do you remember -- you mentioned it at the beginning - that
14 there was a tank in the village. Do you remember anything in connection
15 with this tank?
16 A. They hit me in front of my father's house. At that moment, I fell
17 down, which was to be expected. Not that I fainted, but I simply wasn't
18 aware of anything around me. And as I was running towards the cemetery,
19 at some 200 or 300 metres away from my father's house, there was a tank.
20 At that moment, I also saw some five or six lads who were on the ground in
21 front of the tank, and I was also ordered to do the same, to lay down in
22 front of the tank. And then the game started. Somebody would say: Tank,
23 move forward. Run over them. And then the next order would be: No,
24 don't move forward. And then we were also beaten up there.
25 Q. And how long did it last?
1 A. Twenty minutes or so.
2 Q. And after this, as you called, game, what happened then?
3 A. Then we had to get up and start running again, this time with our
4 eyes closed.
5 Q. And where were you running?
6 A. Towards the cemetery, the new cemetery.
7 Q. And did you enter the cemetery?
8 A. No, we didn't. We stopped short of the cemetery, in front of its
10 Q. And Mr. Tenic, would you be able to recollect approximately how
11 many people were there together with you?
12 A. When I arrived there, there were already some 300 or 400 people
14 Q. Were they all men, or were they also some women?
15 A. All men.
16 Q. And would you be able to tell us which age range these men were?
17 A. They were between the ages of 40 and 50, on average.
18 Q. So they were -- were they people younger than 40?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember who was the youngest?
21 A. At that moment, I didn't notice anybody in particular.
22 Q. Was there anyone from your family there with you? I'm referring
23 to immediate family.
24 A. My brother.
25 Q. And what happened in front of this cemetery?
1 A. We had to stand there with our hands on our heads. I remember a
2 van, a white van, arriving, and somebody asked for Vaso to step from the
3 line. And then my cousin told me: Don't leave the line. You're not
4 Vaso. You are Mehmed Tenic. This vehicle, this Golf, we call, I think it
5 was, returned to the village.
6 Q. Mr. Tenic, I will stop you again for a second. When this person
7 called out Vaso, is Vaso your nickname?
8 A. Yes. All this time my nickname was Vaso.
9 Q. You then stated this vehicle, Golf, returned to the village. What
10 happened when this vehicle returned to the village?
11 A. We remained standing there. The car returned. And on this second
12 occasion, a guy who knew me was in the car. He told me to stop playing
13 stupid and to step out of the line.
14 Q. And who was the person who knew you?
15 A. Bobic, a former regular policeman.
16 Q. We have Bobic. I think I heard some other name. Could you repeat
17 his name, please, once again.
18 A. Not Bobic. Bubic.
19 Q. And do you know his first name?
20 A. I can't remember.
21 Q. So what happened after that?
22 A. I entered the car. In the car, there was my friend, Sead Iriskic.
23 Q. And where were you taken?
24 A. I was taken to the SUP building in Teslic.
25 Q. And when you arrived in front of the SUP Teslic, what did you see?
1 A. When I arrived in front of the SUP building in Teslic, I saw two
2 or three persons lying down, covered in blood. I saw some reserve
3 policemen. I saw people being beaten up, clubbed.
4 Q. Did you recognise anyone who was beaten?
5 A. I recognised the former commander of the police.
6 Q. Do you, by any chance, remember his name?
7 A. His first name is Sabinko, and I don't know his last name.
8 Q. Do you remember names, or did you recognise anybody who
9 participated in the beating?
10 A. I didn't understand your question.
11 Q. The people, did you recognise the policemen or soldiers who were
12 in front of the SUP and who did the beating?
13 A. At that time, I did not know their real names, but I found out
14 later on who they were.
15 Q. Can you tell us what did you find out later about their names?
16 A. I learned that the main person among them was Piko and that he was
17 a member of the Red Berets.
18 Q. And did you learn some other names later?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And my last question to this is: Were they -- the people who did
21 the beating, were they policemen or were they soldiers?
22 A. Policemen.
23 Q. Before I move further, I would like to show you Exhibit P1929.
24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can you please place the first page on the ELMO.
25 Q. I'm referring to the first paragraph in the middle, and it says:
1 "About 50 Muslims and Croats have been arrested in Teslic. There is
2 information --" first page for you, in the middle. "There is information
3 that they were responsible for the organisation and creation of enemy
4 military formations and the organisers of weapons, procurement, and
6 This document is dated 5th of June, 1992, and it was prepared by
8 You stated you were arrested on 4th of June. Does this document
9 refer to your arrest?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And were you responsible for organisation of military formations?
12 A. I was not a member of any party. I was not a member of any
14 Q. Did you possess any weapon?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And if I read for you the third paragraph, can you tell me whether
17 you know anything about this: "There is still heavy presence of Ustasha
18 formation in the area of the villages of Slatina and Komusina."
19 You already mentioned that these two villages didn't hand over
20 their weapons. Were you aware that there were some fightings?
21 A. At that time, I was not aware of that. When I was in the camp, I
22 heard about some fighting that had taken place. And while I was in the
23 camp, I also heard some detonations.
24 Q. And I will show you last document before we will move to your
25 detention, and it is Exhibit P1250. And it is also in Teslic binder, and
1 the date is 8th of June, 1992. The binders are organised in chronological
2 order. And it follows directly the Exhibit P1929. I have extra copy for
3 the ELMO.
4 Mr. Tenic, I would like you to have a look at the fourth
5 sentence -- no, I cannot -- I'm sorry. I cannot count. It's really the
6 third sentence. And it says: "Our forces have engaged in successful
7 mopping-up operation in the areas of Prijedor and Teslic."
8 Did you hear anything about mopping-up operations?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you hear anything about shelling of witnesses -- of villages
11 in Teslic, in the Teslic municipality?
12 A. I only saw Stenjak.
13 Q. And when was it?
14 A. Stenjak was before I was taken away, a day or two days before
15 that. I'm not sure.
16 Q. And did you see it yourself or did you receive this information
17 from somebody else?
18 A. I was watching Stenjak with my own two eyes.
19 Q. What did you see?
20 A. Well, I saw people fleeing across fields. I saw houses being set
21 on fire manually.
22 Q. Do you know -- and did you see that the village would be shelled?
23 A. I saw, from the direction of Priletar [phoen] stadium that fire
24 was opened. I don't know whether it was a tank or a gun or what. I know
25 it was something. I mean, one of such pieces.
1 Q. Did you know who did the shelling?
2 A. That, I don't know.
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with these documents. And now I would
4 like to focus on your detention.
5 Q. I interrupted you when you stated that you saw several men lying
6 in front of the SUP. You arrived to the SUP. What happened after your
8 A. As I've told you, the first person I saw lying was Sabinko, former
9 police chief, and that is when I was hit too. And they took us
10 downstairs, to the cellar of the building. And as there was no room
11 there, a policeman took us to another room.
12 Q. When you say -- when you say "they took us," who was there with
14 A. Well, I think that it was those Piko's Red Berets.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Was that what you meant? Because I don't think
16 that's what you meant. Who was there with you? Who -- you were taken
17 with others down to the basement, no?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Richterova wants to know who the others were
20 that were taken down with you to the basement, not who took you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hasan Iriskic, Sead Iriskic, Huso
22 Kopic, Nazif Kopic, and I can't remember who else was there with me.
23 MS. RICHTEROVA:
24 Q. You said you were taken to the basement. Were there already other
25 people locked in the basement?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know approximately how many?
3 A. No, I don't know that.
4 Q. Did you recognise anyone from these people?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you stay together with them or -- I'm sorry. You already
7 answered: "There was no room there. A policeman took us to another
8 room." In the other room, how many of you stayed in that other room?
9 A. Seven or eight; I'm not sure.
10 Q. How long did you stay in the basement of the SUP?
11 A. I wasn't in the basement.
12 Q. I apologise. So how long did you stay in the building of the SUP?
13 A. All night.
14 Q. And after this night, did you stay in the SUP or were you
15 transferred somewhere else?
16 A. After that night, we were taken to the Territorial Defence
17 building. That is what it was called at the time.
18 Q. While you were in the SUP, did you receive any food?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you receive any water?
21 A. A litre and a half bottle.
22 Q. Did you have any toilets?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Where did you sleep?
25 A. On the floor.
1 Q. Did you have water to wash yourself?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And while you were in the SUP, how were you treated?
4 A. Nobody touched us in SUP that night, because that policeman knew
5 Iriskic, so he put us away and told us not to know anything, just to keep
7 Q. You say that nobody touched you that night. Are you referring to
8 your group of approximately seven or eight people?
9 A. I am.
10 Q. Do you know whether people who were in other areas of the SUP, how
11 they were treated -- I'm sorry. How the people who were in other areas of
12 the SUP were treated?
13 A. I could only hear cries of pain, but I don't know anything else.
14 Q. Were you interrogated when you were in the SUP building?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were you told why you were taken in the SUP?
17 A. No.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the
20 MS. RICHTEROVA:
21 Q. Would you come closer to the microphone? The interpreters cannot
22 hear you.
23 And you already mentioned that later you were transferred to the
24 Teslic TO building.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were all the people who were kept in the SUP transferred to the TO
2 building, or, to your knowledge, were they transferred in some other
4 A. I don't know whether everybody went, but people were coming out of
5 the basement, and we came out. I don't know if all of them did.
6 Q. When you arrived to the TO building, where were you taken in the
7 TO building?
8 A. Their former storage room, warehouse.
9 Q. When you arrived there, how many people were there together with
11 A. Why, about 40, 50.
12 Q. Did this number vary during your stay?
13 A. Yes, later on.
14 Q. Do you know approximately what was later the number of people who
15 were kept in the TO building?
16 A. About 100, maybe 120.
17 Q. Were they all men?
18 A. Yes, they were all men.
19 Q. Were there any soldiers among them?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you receive any food while you were in the TO building?
22 A. No, not that day.
23 Q. And later, did you receive any food? And if yes, how often?
24 A. A sandwich once a day.
25 Q. Did you receive water during the whole time you were in the TO?
1 A. We had a 10 litres of water, a cannister of 10 litres, and that
2 was it.
3 Q. This 10 litres was for everybody who was in the warehouse?
4 A. Everybody, yes.
5 Q. Did you have toilets?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So what did you do when you wanted to use toilet?
8 A. Well, we urinated in the cannister.
9 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness please repeat.
10 A. And if we needed to defecate, we risked it and went outside, I
11 mean risking the beatings.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need -- for a moment I thought I heard you
13 say that you needed the witness it repeat something. I'm addressing the
14 interpreter who is translating from B/C/S to English. Do you still
15 require the witness to repeat any of his statements?
16 THE INTERPRETER: No, thank you, Your Honour. The witness said
17 the explanation.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA:
20 Q. You stated you were risking the beating. Were you beaten if you
21 wanted to use the toilet, or were you beaten on the way to toilet? Can
22 you please explain this.
23 A. Well, you have to knock on the door if you want to do it. You
24 have to put your hands on the head, and then you move towards the WC.
25 Then you're hit once or twice; depends.
1 Q. Where did you sleep?
2 A. On the concrete.
3 Q. Did you have any blankets?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you able to wash yourself?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you able to change your clothes?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Could you shave yourself?
10 A. No.
11 Q. When were you released from that TO building?
12 A. I was released 30 or 40 days later; I'm not sure.
13 Q. You don't know the date, exactly the date when you were released?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. If I can refresh your memory from the statement, on the page 5,
16 you stated that you were released on 17 of July, 1992. Is it correct, or
17 you do not remember it?
18 A. I think that was the date, thereabouts.
19 Q. Were there any diseases spread in the TO among the inmates?
20 A. Well, there were lots of people suffering from diabetes, and there
21 was a lot of dysentery.
22 Q. Do you know whether the people who suffered from diabetes or
23 suffered from other diseases, whether they received any medical attention?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know who were the guards in the TO?
1 A. I know two of them.
2 Q. Can you tell us their names?
3 A. Tomo Mihajlovic and Milorad Panic.
4 Q. Were they members of the Red Berets, these people, or you didn't
5 know whom they belonged?
6 A. Not then.
7 Q. I want to ask you one question in connection with these Red
8 Berets. Did you hear the name Mice, Mice group?
9 A. I've heard it.
10 Q. What did you hear about this Mice group?
11 A. Well, I heard that those men, that Mice were part of a Green
12 Berets [as interpreted], sort of Teslic guys.
13 Q. And did you know or did you learn at some stage whether people who
14 guarded you in the TO were member of this Mice group?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I am getting a little bit
16 confused. Usually, until now, we have always associated the Green Berets
17 with Muslim, Bosniak groups. Did the witness say that the Mice group, or
18 did you intend saying that the Mice group was part of a Bosniak
19 organisation? Because the Green Berets that we have heard of so far have
20 always been Bosniak.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry. I think it was -- it --
22 Q. Can you please repeat which group this Mice group was part of?
23 Was it Green Berets or Red Berets?
24 A. Red, Red Berets.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
1 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry. I didn't notice in the transcript the
2 word "green."
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then you can proceed.
4 MS. RICHTEROVA:
5 Q. Before this clarification, my question was: Did you know or did
6 you learn at some later stage whether people who guarded you were in the
7 TO, were members of the Mice group?
8 A. It was afterwards that I learned that Tomo Mihajlovic and Milorad
9 Panic were in the Mice group.
10 Q. How were you treated during your stay in the TO?
11 A. I was taken out for a beating a couple of times, never any
12 questions, never any reasons given, only because I was called Vaso and was
13 that nickname.
14 Q. You said you were beaten. Can you be more specific? Who did the
15 beating, and did they use -- or the person who beat you, did they use any
16 tools to beat you?
17 A. As a rule, it would be those wooden batons or cords, all types of
18 objects, boards.
19 Q. And who did the beating?
20 A. Well, at that time you can't see who that is, because it is
21 usually at night-time. You are not allowed to look. You have to face the
22 wall. You have to have your hands on the wall, and so on.
23 Q. Did you recognise at least the uniform of this person who did the
24 beating? Were they policemen, reserve policemen, or soldiers?
25 A. No.
1 Q. This beating, did it take place every day or just on several
3 A. The worst beatings we received when men from Rankovici were
4 brought. Nobody could stand then.
5 Q. Did they beat you all, or did they just select -- did they select
6 only some people for beating?
7 A. I said all.
8 Q. Did you witness that someone would die in the TO?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you please tell us, what did you see?
11 A. A young man was brought, whom I knew, who used to work with me
12 for -- in a private business. I can't remember his last name, but I know
13 his first name was Zlatan. He asked me to give him a pillow and to cover
14 him with something, and he died around 4.00 in the morning.
15 Q. This Zlatan, can you describe, just briefly, in which condition he
16 was when he was asking you for some help.
17 A. When I pulled up his T-shirt, well, he was -- he was all blue from
18 the beating.
19 Q. And he -- was he brought to the TO in this condition, or did he
20 sustain these injuries in the TO?
21 A. He was brought to the TO in that condition.
22 Q. And do you know where he was brought from?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And did you witness anybody else who would die in the TO?
25 A. In the TO building, nobody else died except Zlatan.
1 Q. In your statement, if I can again refresh your memories, you
2 mentioned that there were two young guys who died in the TO.
3 A. The other one died in the hospital in Teslic. He was taken there
4 and died the same day.
5 Q. And did you see this young guy before he was taken to the
7 A. I didn't pay attention to the young man, but I could see that he
8 was tall and quite young.
9 Q. Did you see that this young guy was beaten in the TO?
10 A. Since the authorisation had come that those who were injured or
11 ill could stay lying down, and I had been hit in the back forcefully so
12 that I couldn't stand. And as two came in, I saw how this young man was
13 hit with the rifle butt in his back. And for a couple of days, he could
14 only move his fingers. But then we asked them for a favour and they took
15 him away, and afterwards I heard that he had died in the hospital.
16 Q. You stated that the worst night was when they brought some men
17 from Rankovici. Do you still remember this statement?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Do you remember who participated in the beating that particular
20 night? Was it the same people who did the beating throughout your
21 detention, or were these people -- or was it somebody else?
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. Do you remember name Boban Jovanovic?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Who was this person?
1 A. That person had brought little Zlatan in, him and his friend, his
2 best friend. I can't exactly remember the name of the other lad, but that
3 other lad had told me that Boban and somebody else - I can't remember his
4 name - had beaten him.
5 Q. This Boban Jovanovic, did he stay in the TO and did he participate
6 in beatings, or did he leave after he brought Zlatan?
7 A. He only brought him in and left.
8 Q. During your stay, was there any occasion when large amount of
9 people would be taken away and never seen again?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. When did this happen?
12 A. I think after some three or four -- no, seven days after I was
13 brought to the TO, they started calling out some people and taking them
15 Q. Do you remember any names of people who were taken away?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Can you please state their names.
18 A. To begin with, I know Rasim Galijasevic, Mesud Kopic, a Croat --
19 no. His name escapes me, but I know him. Himzo Jasarevic. That's all I
20 can remember.
21 Q. But you remembered it better when you gave the statement and you
22 listed a few more names?
23 A. Well, you know, it begins to fade slightly.
24 Q. Do you know the names of people who took them away?
25 A. I don't know that.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: You can -- we are going to stop for a break now, but
2 you can proceed with mentioning the names one by one and ask him whether
3 he knows those persons, whether he remembers the name, and whether he
4 could enlighten us. Thank you. Twenty-five minutes.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, may I address the Court briefly? I
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, if I might address the Court briefly.
11 First of all, Mr. Ackerman was not feeling well, so he asked your
12 permission to leave, and so he's not going to be with us the rest of the
13 day. I'm ready to go forward.
14 Secondly, during the break on a sheet of paper I wrote down the
15 exhibits that I would be using -- anticipate to use in my
16 cross-examination. I put them on a Post-it note in front of the usher so
17 I wanted it give her some notice.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cunningham.
19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richterova, you may proceed.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA:
22 Q. Before the adjournment, I got permission to read you the names of
23 people you mentioned in your statement from 17 of March, 2000, as people
24 being taken away. It was Rasim Galijasevic; is it true? Himzo Jasarevic?
25 A. I remember.
1 Q. Mesud Kopic?
2 A. Yes, I remember him.
3 Q. Nihad Medic?
4 A. Yes, I remember that. He was a professor, a teacher, that is.
5 Q. Victor Tibetanac?
6 A. Tibetanac. I remember.
7 Q. And one Lugonic?
8 A. I remember.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Sorry to interrupt you. I hate doing
10 this, Madam Richterova, but we'll leave it now. When you referred to
11 Nihad Medic, you said yes, I remember that. He was a professor. In your
12 statement you also referred to a professor Midhad Midjic, who was all
13 covered in wounds and who a meat axe or a hammer -- is it the same person
14 or are we talking of two different persons?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Midjic, Midjic is a professor. I
16 know Professor Midjic personally. He sported a beard. And Nijad is also
17 a professor or a teacher and he was also beaten up.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So we're talking of two persons, one is Midjic and
19 the other one is Medic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know Midjic personally, and the
21 other person I don't know so well. I know that his name is Nihad, but I'm
22 not sure about his family name.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
24 MS. RICHTEROVA:
25 Q. You also mentioned in your statement two names, Petrovic and
1 Panic. These two men, did they participate in taking away these people
2 who I just listed?
3 A. I don't know it for a fact, but I suppose so.
4 Q. When you were in the warehouse and these people were taken out,
5 how did it happen? Were they called to go out or did someone come inside
6 to take them away?
7 A. Their names were called and then they had to go out.
8 Q. And did you see the person who called them?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And I would like to ask you one more question just to clarify from
11 your statement. You again mentioned Panic, and in that case, Milorad
12 Panic, and Boban Jovanovic -- I'm sorry. My fault. You mentioned Boban
13 Jovanovic in connection with the death of the other young boy who later
14 died in hospital. Was this Boban Jovanovic involved in the beating or
15 maltreatment of the other young boy who later died?
16 A. I said that I suppose that Boban was there, because I know Boban
17 from a very early age.
18 Q. But did you see Boban Jovanovic beating this other guy who died
19 later in hospital?
20 A. No, I didn't see him beating him, but I saw him running past him
21 and hitting him with a rifle butt in the head.
22 Q. The people who are -- who you mentioned that you saw as being
23 taken away, were there only these six men, or were there more people who
24 would be taken away and never seen again?
25 A. I know of only those that I mentioned. I don't know of any
2 Q. Do you know what happened to these people you mentioned?
3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I'm going to object to that. It's going
4 to be hearsay unless he can establish who his source is.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: But we are having hearsay evidence all the time.
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I understand that, Your Honour. I'm just --
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I will rephrase my question.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA:
10 Q. Did you learn from a particular person what happened to any of
11 these people whom you mention in your statement?
12 A. Not at that time, but later on I did.
13 Q. And what did you learn later on?
14 A. When I left the camp, I heard that they had been killed.
15 Q. From whom did you hear this information?
16 A. From Mesud Kopic's father.
17 Q. And to your knowledge, was anybody from these people ever found
18 either alive or dead?
19 A. I know that Kopic was. I don't know about others.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Kopic was what?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard later on about an exhumation
22 during which his body was -- his remains were found and buried in his
23 village. Yes.
24 MS. RICHTEROVA:
25 Q. Do you know the place of the exhumation, the name of the place of
1 the exhumation?
2 A. I heard that, and I know that the name of this place is Bebe.
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, we already -- we didn't see exactly
4 the exhumation in Bebe, but we saw the exhumation in Hanifici. And on the
5 same tape is also the exhumation which took place in Bebe, and also we
6 have the report, and both the report and the video were exhibited under
7 P2018 and 2019 respectively.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Richterova.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA:
10 Q. I would like to show you, before we go any further, a few
11 photographs. They have been exhibited under P1955.1 until 10. These are
12 identical copies. If you could have a look and tell us whether you can
13 see -- can you give them to the witness? And if you can see the TO
14 building on any of these pictures.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Put them on the ELMO, please, rather than giving
16 them to the witness.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge please.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Let's put them on the ELMO, please, rather
19 than give them to the witness. The first one. And there we are seeing on
20 the ELMO Exhibit Number P1955.1.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: What was my intention is if the witness first
22 could go through these photographs and identify the picture on which is
23 the TO building.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We can do that one by one, and the usher will
25 put them on the ELMO one after the other. Yes, but he hasn't answered the
1 question as yet.
2 What do you see on this first photo, the one which was the ERN
3 number 0219-4087? What are we seeing there? Do you recognise that
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I can't tell you. I don't
6 recognise the building.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next photo. We are looking now at
8 Exhibit number P1955.2, with ERN number 0219-4088. Look at that photo,
9 sir. Do you recognise that mosque, or that building?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Next photo, and we are now looking at Exhibit
12 P1955.3, with ERN number 0219-4089. Looking at that building, sir, do you
13 recognise it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Next photo. And we now have on the ELMO Exhibit
16 number P1955.4, with ERN number 0219-4091, showing a building, or one
17 building. Do you recognise that building, sir, the main building that you
18 see on that photo?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And what are we looking at on that photo?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the other side, there used to be
22 an entrance, and this building used to house the Teslic radio station.
23 And in the basement of this building, there were people.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
25 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry.
2 MS. RICHTEROVA:
3 Q. In the left-hand side corner, we can see the remains of one
4 building. If we can quickly could have a look at P1955.5, which is the
5 next picture. Is it the part -- we can now see a building whose one part
6 we were able to see on the previous one. Can you recognise this building?
7 A. This is the Teslic SUP building.
8 Q. And when you said, during your testimony, that you saw some people
9 lying on the ground and people being beaten, where did you see it? Can
10 you point at the place where these people were lying? You have to point
11 at the picture in the -- on the ELMO.
12 A. Sabinko was here, where the car is. Piko came from here. This is
13 where he was standing. The reserve policemen were standing here, as well
14 as the regular policemen. Piko came from here, to this place, and asked:
15 Where are you bringing these guys from? And somebody said: From Barici.
16 Then he hit Sabinko first and then he hit me and then he shouted to the
17 reserve policemen and ordered them to start beating the former commander
18 of the police.
19 Q. Can we show the previous picture with the radio station? Did you
20 see anyone close to that building maybe being beaten or lying on the
21 ground? The P1955.4, if the usher could --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want -- better place --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put the previous photo on the ELMO.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here. Three men were lying here, in
1 front of the staircase.
2 MS. RICHTEROVA:
3 Q. Can we place now Exhibit P1955.6.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, we are looking at Exhibit
5 P1955.6, with ERN number 0219-4096.
6 Do you recognise that building, sir?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So tell us what we are looking at.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recognise this building.
10 MS. RICHTEROVA:
11 Q. What is it? What is the name of this building?
12 A. This used to be the TO building.
13 Q. Can you show us in which area you were locked, if it is possible
14 from the outside.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, let's say: This is the front of the
16 building or the back of the building or the side of the building? Can you
17 tell us what we are looking at?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the front of the building
19 that faces the street.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And were you kept in in the front of the building or
21 in the back of the building or any other place in this building that you
22 could tell us?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were exactly here, in this part
24 of the building.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So in the front?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This used to be a storage, and it is
2 in the front part of the building.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
4 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with the photographs for now, but I
5 would like to show the witness a sketch which was prepared by the witness
6 during his interview in 2001, and it was attached to his statement.
7 Q. You prepared it as a sketch of the TO warehouse. Can you please
8 just briefly describe what we can see? And first, what is the side facing
9 the street, the front side of the building?
10 A. This here is the front of the building.
11 Q. And where were you located?
12 A. I was exactly here.
13 Q. Did you have your own designated places, or you can stay wherever
14 you wanted?
15 A. You couldn't stay just anywhere.
16 Q. So what was the normal routine when someone entered to the room?
17 What did you have to do?
18 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the question.
19 Q. You were kept in the warehouse. Did you stay the whole time in
20 your place or were you able to walk around within the warehouse?
21 A. I could move about, but when they entered the premises, I had to
22 be in my own place.
23 Q. Were you kept only in this warehouse or were you allowed to go
24 out, any time during your stay, from 4th June to 17th of July?
25 A. When there was no water, then two guys were allowed to go out and
1 bring water when we ran out of water.
2 Q. But I'm asking whether you all were, at any time, allowed to go
3 out of this warehouse, for a walk, to do some work, or did you stay the
4 whole time inside of that building?
5 A. No. We were inside all the time.
6 Q. And when the people who were called in June, and you never see
7 them again, can you tell us where you were at that time and where were the
8 people or the person who called these men on -- can you show us on this
9 sketch where was your location and where was the person who called them
11 A. I was here, as I've already told you. Rasim was here, that is,
12 Rasim Galijasevic. Himzo was here. And little Kopic was here. I believe
13 that Midjic, Professor Midjic was here, but I can't be sure about that.
14 Q. And the guard who called them, where was the guard?
15 A. The guard would call our names from this room here.
16 Q. And he did it on that occasion as well?
17 A. Yes, from this room.
18 Q. And you didn't see who he was?
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with this piece of paper.
21 Q. Mr. Tenic --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you tendering this sketch an exhibit in evidence
23 or not?
24 MS. RICHTEROVA: I am not tendering this document into evidence.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
1 MS. RICHTEROVA:
2 Q. According to your statement, you were released on 17 of July,
3 1992. I would like to show the witness an exhibit, P1930. This document
4 is dated 6th of July, 1992, issued by Teslic Municipal Assembly, signed by
5 Nikola Perisic. And I would like to place the last page, the page number
6 4 in English, on the ELMO. And if the witness could go to the last page
7 of his version. And I am referring to paragraph 16 and 17.
8 The paragraph 16 says: "Prepare a list of apartments and family
9 houses that have been abandoned by their occupiers or owners for whatever
10 reason or who were not in their house or apartment during the inspection
11 by the civilian protection unit."
12 Can you see this paragraph? Mr. Tenic, can you see the paragraph,
13 what I just read? It was paragraph 16 on the last page.
14 A. Yes, I can see it.
15 Q. And paragraph 17 says: "Start moving people into the houses and
16 apartments referred to in the previous item, giving priority to the
17 families of those killed or wounded and to refugees."
18 When you were released on 17 of July, did you go back to your
20 A. I came as far as in front of my apartment, and I knocked on the
21 door. And the door was opened by a woman wearing black. She asked me
22 what I wanted, and I asked her if I could collect my belongings and
23 explained that I had previously lived here. She told me to go away, and
24 she said: I myself lost two members of my family on Stenjak, and if you
25 don't go away, I'll call the police.
1 Q. Were you allowed to take your things from that apartment?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And where did you go after you left the place where you used to
5 A. I went to my father's in Barici.
6 Q. How long did you stay in Barici?
7 A. I don't remember exactly, but --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you stay days, weeks, or months, or years?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not long. A month or maybe two
10 months or so.
11 MS. RICHTEROVA:
12 Q. Did you leave the municipality on convoy, in organised way, or did
13 you leave it on your own?
14 A. I did it illegally.
15 Q. Did you know whether other people were leaving as well?
16 A. I heard that people were leaving in great numbers.
17 Q. Did you notice when this departure started, was it only after you
18 were released in July or was it already before, let's say in May, June,
19 before you were arrested?
20 A. After I was released from the TO, I noticed that people were
22 Q. And were they also leaving before you were arrested?
23 A. They were leaving. For example, I took my wife away before I was
24 arrested. I was afraid because the situation became a bit unpleasant in
25 Teslic. I don't know how else to put it.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 16887 to 16899.
1 Q. You said you left illegally. Did you pay someone to take you
3 A. I had to.
4 Q. Whom did you pay?
5 A. A truck driver.
6 Q. Do you know whether there was some organised way how to leave the
8 A. I only heard about it.
9 Q. What did you hear?
10 A. You signed that you're renouncing your property and then you can
11 take a convoy to Novi Sad or Subotica.
12 Q. You said that you had to renounce your property. Do you know
13 where such a person needed to go to renounce his or her property?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. Did you sign over your property?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And you also said that after a person would sign over the
18 property, that they can take a convoy. Do you know who organised these
20 A. No.
21 Q. Before you left -- and my one more question in this respect to
22 your departure - was it in 1992 when you were asked -- when you decided to
24 A. I didn't understand the question.
25 Q. Did you leave the municipality in 1992 or later?
1 A. 1992.
2 Q. During the time you were still in the municipality, did you
3 witness or did you see any mosque or Catholic churches as being destroyed
4 or damaged?
5 A. I saw the church in the centre of the town, demolished, and in
6 Barici, I saw the mosque.
7 Q. And in Barici, did you witness when the mosque was destroyed?
8 Were you there in the time when the mosque was destroyed?
9 A. Close to.
10 Q. And can you just very briefly describe what did you see?
11 A. I saw then a few guys get off it, enter, and half an hour or an
12 hour later, they left, and 120 -- and when the van had moved a hundred or
13 200 metres away, one could hear a powerful explosion.
14 Q. When did it happen? During the day or during the night?
15 A. Night.
16 Q. And when did it happen? Before you were arrested or after you
17 were arrested? I'm sorry. Before you were arrested or after you were
19 A. After I was released.
20 Q. And it was before you left the municipality?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The church in Teslic town, when was it you saw it damaged?
23 A. I don't remember the exact date.
24 Q. It will be enough for me if you could state whether it was, again,
25 before you were arrested or after you were released.
1 A. After the release.
2 Q. And in which way the church was damaged?
3 A. Well, there was only one side of it, and that was pulled down
4 too. One side, where there was a picture of something.
5 Q. Did you see any other mosque being damaged or destroyed, apart
6 from the one in Barici?
7 A. I saw one in Ruzevic.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I show the witness four photographs? It is
9 P1955.7 until .10.
10 Q. And if you could recognise on any of these pictures the mosque
11 which you would know.
12 A. No.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So, for the record, we are looking at Exhibit
14 P1955.7, with ERN number 0219-409 -- I can't see the last digit. 99.
15 Yes. And your answer to Madam Richterova's question is you don't
16 recognise this building, no?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Next photo.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA:
20 Q. The following, P1955.8, the ERN is 0219-4100.
21 A. No.
22 Q. The following picture is P1955.9. The ERN is 0219-4101.
23 A. No.
24 Q. And the last one is P1955.10.
25 A. I know this one. This is Ruzevici.
1 Q. The ERN is 0219-4103. When did you see this mosque? Was it
2 before you were arrested or after you were released?
3 A. After the release.
4 Q. Do you know what happened to this mosque, who destroyed?
5 A. No.
6 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm done with the pictures. I have only a few
7 more documents for this witness. If we can show the witness Exhibit
9 Q. This document was issued by public security station Teslic on 8th
10 of July, 1992, and it says, in its first paragraph: "About 40 Muslims and
11 Croats have been massacred in the Teslic municipality by a group of
12 criminals from Doboj. In addition, in only 20 days, the same group caused
13 material damage of several million German marks to the Teslic
14 municipality. They raped a large number of girls and women of all
15 nationalities, which has caused fear among the citizens."
16 This document was signed by Predrag Radulovic. First, did you
17 know Predrag Radulovic or did you see this person in TO camp?
18 A. Once.
19 Q. Do you know what was his nickname?
20 A. Pile.
21 Q. What was the occasion when Predrag Radulovic came to the TO?
22 A. Pile came after those guys were taken away and told us he didn't
23 know what was happening and who was doing that, and that it would not
24 happen again.
25 Q. After he left, were you immediately released or did you stay in
1 the camp for some other time, for a longer time?
2 A. No. We were released after that.
3 Q. And how soon after his visit you were released?
4 A. I don't remember that.
5 Q. Was it the following day or was there some period?
6 A. No. A little bit longer.
7 Q. And about 40 Muslims and Croats were massacred. Did you learn
8 later, or at the time of your detention, that these people were massacred
9 or were killed?
10 A. I heard about it later.
11 Q. Did you hear that a group of people from Doboj did it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So what did you hear? Who did it?
14 A. I don't know much about that.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to show an exhibit, P1932.
16 Q. This document was issued by Teslic Lower Court on 11 of July,
17 1992, and it was signed by Nenad Kovacevic. It's the list of people that
18 an investigation shall be conducted against the following accused persons.
19 Can you please have a look on the first page and the second page.
20 There is a list of names. And can you tell us whether you know anyone
21 from this list of names?
22 A. The first one I don't know.
23 Q. Do you know the first one or you don't know the first one?
24 A. No. Sorry, not the first one.
25 Q. The first one is Pijunovic Miroslav, nickname Piko. Do you know
1 this name or the person, or not?
2 A. The name is familiar, but -- the person, no, I don't.
3 Q. You mentioned that person with the nickname Piko was the one who
4 was present in front of the SUP. Is it the same person as mentioned in
5 this report or not?
6 A. Miroslav Pijunovic Piko is the same person.
7 Q. And when you go quickly, because I gave you an opportunity --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Tell him -- witness, go through the list. We don't
9 need to ask you with each and every -- with reference to each and every
10 particular name that there is. Go through it, take your time, and from
11 that list, see if you know anyone, and tell us -- if you could give us any
12 information on any of these persons.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know Stojan Djuric.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA:
16 Q. And did you see this person either in the SUP or in the TO
18 A. Stojan, no.
19 Q. Do you know anybody else from this list?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now I want to -- I want you to go to the page 3 of your version,
22 and it is also page 3 of the English version. And there is the
23 explanation of -- because -- the reasoning of the investigation. And you
24 had the opportunity to read these reasonings. Does it reflect accurately
25 what happened, to your knowledge? Does it reflect accurately what
1 happened in Teslic and in the TO building?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, has he seen this document before?
3 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. He saw this document during his proofing.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you don't -- we don't need to give
5 him much time to read it through completely.
6 MS. RICHTEROVA:
7 Q. Is it correct that people were arrested?
8 A. I didn't understand the question.
9 Q. Yesterday you had opportunity to read this document, and I would
10 like to know whether the content of this reasoning reflects accurately
11 what happened to you or what happened in Teslic. My first question is:
12 Is it correct that people were arrested?
13 A. It is.
14 Q. Illegally confined?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you ever told the reason why you were detained in the TO?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Is it correct that people were killed?
19 A. It is.
20 Q. What can you tell us to the statement that they falsely introduced
21 themselves to the civilian and military authorities as national security
22 employees of the Doboj security service centre? It is the second sentence
23 of this reasoning.
24 A. Incorrect.
25 Q. And can you elaborate on this, in your opinion, why this statement
1 is incorrect?
2 A. Because they were civilians.
3 Q. Who were the civilians?
4 A. Rama Skopljak [phoen] was with me.
5 Q. I'm referring to these people who are --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have a hell of a confusion here. Let's
7 separate them straight away, because he definitely misunderstood you
8 completely. There was no reason why he should have misunderstood you, but
9 he has misunderstood you, because you were obviously referring to the man
10 who supposedly came from Doboj, not to your village mates or other
12 MS. RICHTEROVA:
13 Q. So my question was: If you can make a comment whether the fact
14 that Miroslav Pijunovic, aka Piko, and others, whether they falsely
15 introduced themselves to civilian and military authorities?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: How do you suppose that the witness can answer that
18 MS. RICHTEROVA: I withdraw this question. I withdraw this
19 question, Your Honour.
20 Q. We also mentioned that you heard about this group of Mice.
21 A. I did.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: We have, Your Honours, the file on Mice group,
23 which I would like to distribute it to you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
25 MS. RICHTEROVA: And this document which I was just reading is
1 part of this file. And this Mice file contains the statements of all the
2 people who were arrested and accused.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Has it been disclosed to the Defence?
4 MS. RICHTEROVA: It was disclosed to the Defence.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: When?
6 MS. RICHTEROVA: It was disclosed many months ago.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I will let you know in a second when
9 exactly. I would like to give these ...
10 This document was disclosed to the Defence on 29 of October, 2001.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but when was the Defence informed that you were
12 going to make use of this document?
13 MS. RICHTEROVA: I informed him yesterday.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And that's correct, Your Honour, but I do not
16 have a copy of that document with me, so I'd ask Ms. Richterova if there's
17 by any chance an additional copy. And I realise it's somewhat voluminous.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA: Unfortunately, I do not have an additional copy
19 of this document.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Chuqing. You can give Mr. Cunningham
21 mine for the time being.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I am going to refer only to one
23 statement, and I can give Mr. Cunningham this one particular statement
24 which I am referring to.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I appreciate that, Your Honour, but during
1 the break, at our next break, I'd still like the opportunity to at least
2 look through that and I appreciate the Court's indulgence --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are 100 percent right, because I don't
4 relish the idea at all that -- I know now that I have, I don't know how
5 many pages, right in front of me, and you're going to refer only to one
6 particular part from that bundle. And I don't know what the rest is all
7 about. So --
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I apologise that we hand over this
9 file at such a late stage, and we are calling a witness who will talk
10 about all the criminal files and will give a detailed explanation about
11 the criminal procedure --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's go -- let's proceed, hoping that we
13 won't encounter --
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to show the witness only one page
15 from this file, which is in English version L0059796 until 59801. And in
16 B/C/S version, if the witness can be shown the second page, in the middle.
17 Q. And the paragraph starts: "Sto se tice oduzimanja imovine." In
18 English, it is -- in English, it is: "As far as I know --" "as far as I
19 know, these people voluntarily donated the money for the Serbian military
20 and were released after that." The whole paragraph refers to Croat and
21 Muslim citizens who gave money to the Serbs during the interrogation.
22 Would you agree, to your knowledge, that Muslim and Croat citizens
23 who were interrogated in the TO or the SUP building, that they would give,
24 voluntarily, the money and donate this money for the Serbian military?
25 A. I disagree.
1 Q. Was it -- did anything like that happen, or did --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you put the document on the ELMO,
4 MS. RICHTEROVA:
5 Q. Do you agree with this statement or the situation was different
6 than stated in this statement?
7 A. The real life was different.
8 Q. So what do you mean? Can you elaborate on this?
9 A. All the money, watches, rings, all the valuable jewellery had to
10 be handed over. And as far as I know, nobody got it back.
11 Q. And you stated that this Piko was in the SUP, and this Piko was,
12 among others, charged as one of the Mice group. And I would like to
13 exhibit this file who contains the statements taken in Teslic in July
14 1992, statements taken from all the members of the Mice group, and I would
15 like to tender this file into evidence.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exhibit number?
17 MS. RICHTEROVA: The exhibit number would be P1969.
18 Q. Mr. Tenic, did you hear, any time during your detention or after
19 you were released, that the members of Mice group were arrested?
20 A. I heard about it later.
21 Q. And did you also hear that the members of Mice group were released
22 shortly after the arrest?
23 A. I heard that too later.
24 MS. RICHTEROVA: This is the last document which I want to show
25 the witness. It's Exhibit P1935, and it is a newspaper article from 23rd
1 of July, 1992. The publication is Glas, and the headline is: "The
2 Notorious Mice Are Free." And I intend to read only the first sentence,
3 which says: "As we have learned unofficially, the notorious Mice from
4 Teslic are free again. In spite of dozens of the most serious criminal
5 offences which they committed against the inhabitants of Teslic in June of
6 this year, they were released by the High Court in Doboj for reasons which
7 are still unknown."
8 Q. To your knowledge, were -- after they were released, were they
9 ever convicted of any crimes which they committed in Teslic?
10 A. I don't know that.
11 Q. Did you ever see anybody who was in Teslic, who was in TO
12 building, and who was member of the Mice group or Red Berets? Did you see
13 such a person at some later stage, again in Teslic or in Doboj?
14 A. I did see one, but I can't remember what his real name was. And
15 since I was in house detention after I was released, I wasn't allowed to
16 move about, move away from the house in Barici. And that man came to the
17 TO too.
18 Q. And if we are talking about, let's say, the years 2000, 2001,
19 2002, have you ever seen, walking, anybody of these people in Teslic,
20 Doboj, or in some other areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
21 A. No.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour. I've concluded my
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Richterova.
25 Mr. Cunningham.
1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I proceed, Your Honour?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but before we do so, can we have an indication
3 as to whether we require the presence of the next witness here this
4 morning, or not? Because if we don't, I wouldn't like to see anyone here
5 waiting in a room by himself for an hour, or for any time, for that
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: My guess is my cross-examination -- I'm going to
8 surprise the accused and not say 45 minutes, but I think my
9 cross-examination is an hour, maybe a little bit more. So --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have half an hour now. Then we start at 12 --
11 at 1.00. You decide, Madam Richterova. My rough guess is that if
12 Mr. Cunningham has an hour or a little bit more, I wonder if we need to
13 bring him over. I don't know. It's up to you.
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: I asked to bring the other witness at 12.30.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but it's --
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: I understand -- I understand your point. We are
17 scheduled other witness for tomorrow. Luckily I'm not using any exhibit
18 with that witness, so --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I have gone through his statement, and it's
20 not a short statement.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: It is not a short statement, but I believe that
22 it will be faster than this testimony. But I would -- of course, I would
23 like at least to start with that witness.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would suggest that you bring him over at about
25 1.15, and hopefully see if we can give him half an hour. But I don't
1 anticipate more than that. And please do make it clear to him, whoever is
2 going to be in contact with him, that not to be surprised at all if
3 nothing happens today.
4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Will do.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right? Thanks.
6 Mr. Cunningham.
7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Cunningham:
10 Q. Mr. Tenic, good afternoon. How are you today?
11 A. Good afternoon. I'm very well, thank you.
12 Q. Good. I'm glad to hear that. I'm going to ask you some
13 questions, and much as you did with the Prosecutor, please answer only the
14 question I ask you, to the best of your ability. If you don't know, just
15 let me know. Fair enough?
16 I'm going to talk to you about some events that happened in your
17 municipality. They may not be in order chronologically, and I'm not doing
18 that to confuse you. That's just the way that I have it organised. So
19 bear with me.
20 One of the very first things that you talked about was the fact
21 that a number of Croats and Muslims, Bosniaks, were dismissed from their
22 jobs. I want to go back to the time in 1991, to go back to the spring of
23 1991/the beginning of summer 1991, say June 1991. How was the economy in
24 your municipality? How would you describe it? Were a lot of people at
25 work? It was as good as it was, say, in the late 1980s? How would you
1 describe it?
2 A. I can't answer that.
3 Q. Fair enough. In -- when the war with Croatia started, did that
4 war have any impact on the local economy? By that I mean, did people
5 start to lose their jobs because of the war?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You were a locksmith; am I correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you have your own shop or did you work with other people?
10 A. I worked with others.
11 Q. And how many people did you work with in your locksmith shop? How
12 many other employees?
13 A. I first worked in Zanatstvo and later on I was employed by a
14 private employer, and I worked with some five or six people altogether.
15 Q. Okay. When the war with Croatia, in Croatia, started, did any of
16 the five or six people that you worked with, did any of them either get
17 called up or leave work for another reason? And when I say "called up," I
18 mean mobilised, called up into the military.
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. During the time that -- during your testimony earlier in the day,
21 you talked about how you had been a member of the TO and that there came a
22 time when you were required to turn in your uniform. Do you remember that
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. At any time before you turned your uniform back in, had you been
1 called up, had you been mobilised into the military? And let me rephrase
2 that, because I realise it's a poor question. You told us that you had to
3 turn in your uniform to the TO barracks or office. Before turning it in,
4 had you received an order to mobilise?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Had anyone in your municipality received an order to mobilise, as
7 far as you know?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. You talked about - and I believe that was in your statement - how,
10 in the winter and spring of 1992, February/March of 1992, you talked about
11 in your statement that it was Serb reservists who were the ones that had
12 weapons. Do you remember making any statement like that in your written
13 statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor?
14 A. I remember.
15 Q. Now, you obviously did your duty for the JNA and were part of the
16 reserves. Let me ask you this: Based on your knowledge and experience,
17 when a reserve is called up, are they incorporated into the army or are
18 they just in a separate reserve unit that acts separately from the JNA?
19 A. I can't answer that.
20 Q. Is it because you don't know or don't remember?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Okay. That's fair enough too. Were there checkpoints in the
23 summer - excuse me - in the winter of 1992, around the municipality of
24 Teslic, did you notice any checkpoints?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. And when did you first start to notice those, if you can recall?
2 A. No, I don't remember the date.
3 Q. Okay. Did you ever have to try to pass through the checkpoints
4 that were set up?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And were you successful in doing that?
7 A. Not through all of them.
8 Q. Okay. You say not through all of them. Roughly, if you can tell
9 us, what percentage were you able to get through? Could you get through
10 50 per cent of them, three-quarters of them? What is your best
12 A. There were very few of those that I could go through.
13 Q. And the reasons that were given as to why you couldn't leave were
14 statements like: The citizens of your municipality who were of a certain
15 age, say age 18 to 60, had to remain within the municipality. Correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So the military-aged men had to stay in the community. And did
18 you see that order that military-aged men having to remain in the
19 community, was that enforced against the Serbs, the Bosniaks, and other
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. In your statement, the written statement you gave to the OTP many
23 months ago, back on March 17th, the year 2000, you said this: "I know
24 that during the end of 1991, all Serbs, Croats, and Muslims armed
25 themselves. They usually brought those weapons from soldiers who were
1 coming from the Croatian front lines."
2 Do you remember making a statement like that?
3 A. I remember.
4 Q. Okay. So what you're telling us, that your recollection is,
5 during that period of 1991, all the ethnic groups were arming themselves.
6 And I believe, to be fair to you, in the very next part of that
7 statement - and let me read it in English so you'll have the complete
8 statement in front of you - that you said the following: "All those
9 weapons had registration numbers and it was easy for the Serbs to trace
10 those weapons and take them from the Croats and Muslims. I know that in
11 March and April, that there were no more weapons among the Muslims and
13 My question to you is this -- and judging by your yes answer, you
14 recall making that statement back in March of 2000. My question to you is
15 this: What was the registration system that allowed -- well, let me back
16 up. It appears that those guns were bought on the black market, because
17 they were purchased from people coming back from the Croatian front line.
18 Would that be a fair statement?
19 A. Could you please repeat that?
20 Q. Sure. You talked about how, in your statement which you've
21 confirmed today, that the weapons that were purchased were usually
22 purchased from people coming back from the front line. Do you remember
23 making that statement?
24 A. I remember.
25 Q. And it would be fair to say if people are buying weapons from
1 people returning from the front line, they would be buying those guns out
2 on the black market, they would be buying them illegally?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So my question to you is this, and if you know, fine; and if you
5 do not know, that's equally well: How would the registration numbers be
6 traced if these weapons were purchased on the black market?
7 A. My aunt's son was in Croatia. He was on the Croatian front line,
8 and he told me that.
9 Q. Okay. So the information -- the only source of the information
10 you have that these weapons could be traced, the registration number could
11 be traced, comes solely from a relative of yours?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In the next part of your statement, and I think I read it to you
14 again, but to be totally fair, I want to read it to you yet again to make
15 sure that I get it totally correct --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps we could give him a copy of his statement
17 straight away if you're going to refer, and later on I will be referring
18 to the statement. I think it would be better if he has a copy in front of
19 him all the time.
20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Of course, Your Honour. And by way of
21 introduction, Mr. Tenic, obviously I do not speak B/C/S. I'm referring to
22 the English copy. I believe the paragraph that I'm talking about will be
23 on the second page, and it begins, at least the English version begins
24 with the following statement: "I know that during the end 1991," just to
25 help get you oriented. If you could read that paragraph that I just gave
1 you the introduction to. In English, it looks like it's about six lines
2 long. Read it to yourself, because I'm going to ask you about the very
3 last sentence.
4 I can tell by the nod that you're done. The very last sentence
5 says: "I know that in March or April there were no more weapons among the
6 Muslims and Croats."
7 Q. Now, the area you grew up in, your municipality, is very, very
8 common for people to have hunting rifles. Am I correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it was common for people, for many people, to have pistols.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, the -- you've mentioned two towns, and I apologise if I
14 mispronounce them. One was Rankovici, and the other one was Slatina. And
15 again, I apologise for my pronunciation. Do you remember mentioning those
16 two villages?
17 A. Slatina and Komusina. I believe these are the names of those two
19 Q. Okay. Let's talk about those villages. Those are villages that
20 have largely a Bosniak population. Correct?
21 A. In Slatina and Komusina, I'm afraid I did not understand.
22 Q. Is the majority ethnic group in those two villages that you've
23 mentioned, is it Bosniak or another ethnic group?
24 A. They're mostly Croats.
25 Q. Okay. Are there any -- what about the town -- the village of
2 A. Muslims.
3 Q. Now, because I'm going to -- I want you to get oriented. If we
4 look at the very next paragraph of the statement that you were reading, it
5 says the following: "I remember that people from villages had to hand
6 over their weapons, and I heard that people from Rankovici and Komusina
7 did not do it."
8 A. I didn't understand your question.
9 Q. Okay. I just wanted you to read the next paragraph so that you
10 could confirm what I just read to you in English, which says: "I remember
11 that people from villages had to hand over their weapons, and I heard that
12 people from Rankovici and Komusina did not do it." And that's what you
13 wrote in your statement that's in front of you right now. Correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So we have at least one village within your municipality that
16 you've characterised as a Bosniak village, that didn't turn over their
17 weapons. Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know of or know an individual by -- living in Rankovici by
20 the last name of Beganovic [phoen]?
21 A. Beganovic?
22 Q. Again, I apologise for my pronunciation, but I believe that's how
23 it's pronounced. Do you recognise that name, first of all?
24 A. There are quite a few individuals with that name.
25 Q. Let me -- and again, I apologise in advance for my pronunciation.
1 The name S-u-l-j-o, Suljo, does that name, first name, ring a -- do you
2 recognise it?
3 A. Yes, I do recognise it.
4 Q. Were you aware that it was known that he had been supplying arms
5 in the city or the village of Rankovici?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You were not present, obviously, between -- you heard about the
8 fighting in the two villages you told us earlier, but were you aware that
9 during that fighting, that there were policemen of Serb nationality that
10 were killed when the villagers didn't turn over their guns? Did you hear
11 that when you heard about the fighting in those villages?
12 A. I heard of all these things once I was released from the camp.
13 Q. Okay. And another thing, and tell me this: After your release
14 from the camp, did you know that there were two officers who were ambushed
15 and killed also in Teslic, two police officers?
16 A. No, I didn't, not in Teslic.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I'm speaking of Teslic, not the town of Teslic, but
18 the entire municipality.
19 A. Yes, I've heard of that.
20 Q. And it was suspected that they were killed by Bosniaks still
21 possessing arms. Correct?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. That's fair enough. Do you know who the president of the SD [sic]
24 was in Rankovici, who the head of the SD [sic] was in the village?
25 A. I haven't a clue.
1 Q. Did you ever hear once you were released or while you were in
2 custody that weapons were found in his home when a search was conducted?
3 A. I don't know. No.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Cunningham, because we need to
5 clarify this, at least for the record.
6 When you asked the witness whether he knew who the president of
7 whichever party you mentioned, it seems that the -- in the transcript we
8 just have the first two letters, SD.
9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Obviously it should be SDA, Your Honour. That
10 was my question.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So -- but I want to make sure that it was
12 translated or it was interpreted accordingly to the witness.
13 Do you confirm that you understood the question as referring to
14 the president of the SDA party?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not a member of any party in
16 Teslic municipality, so I wouldn't know anything about that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead, Mr. Cunningham.
18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: There's a brief area that I want to try to cover
19 in the next three or four minutes.
20 Q. You told us, sir, that while you stayed in Teslic, you had your
21 wife leave town to go stay either with friends or relatives. While you --
22 before you were detained, were you aware of Bosniaks leaving Teslic and
23 going to Tesanj? And I know I'm probably mispronouncing that as well.
24 Were you aware of that?
25 A. Yes, I was.
1 Q. And I know from your statement and what you've told us today, that
2 you didn't -- you don't watch TV, but were you aware of programming that
3 was coming, originating from Bosniaks in that area, in Tesanj?
4 A. No, I wasn't.
5 Q. Before you were -- after you were released, were you aware that a
6 War Presidency had been set up by Bosniaks in that area?
7 A. No. No, I wasn't.
8 Q. That's fair enough.
9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours, I'm about to go into a different
10 area and we're right on the cusp of a break, if the Court pleases.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.
12 Thank you.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.
16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour. With the Court's
17 permission and the usher's assistance, I'd like to show Exhibit P1925 to
18 the witness, and specifically, I'll be going to the second page, paragraph
20 Q. This Exhibit, sir, is a document issued by the Crisis Staff of the
21 Teslic municipality on 6 May 1992 --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: He's seen it already.
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. Just for the record, I wanted to clarify
24 that, Your Honour.
25 Q. And if we look at the very first paragraph on the second page,
1 that paragraph being 1.8, you would agree with me that that is a directive
2 that paramilitaries and individuals illegally possessing guns should turn
3 them over. Correct?
4 A. I know nothing about this.
5 Q. And I'm just asking you to confirm what's in the record. It
6 appears to you - correct me if I'm wrong - that it's a directive for
7 people who are in illegal possession of guns, including individuals and
8 paramilitaries, that they're to turn those guns in; would you agree with
10 A. I don't understand the question.
11 Q. Okay. I'll move on, because the document speaks for itself. In
12 the middle of May, you were not incarcerated, and that's when the Red
13 Berets first -- according to your statement, that's when you first became
14 aware of them. Correct?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When did you first become aware of them, then?
17 A. I saw the berets -- well, I gave you the dates. It could have
18 been the 28th or the 30th.
19 Q. 28th or the 30th of what month?
20 A. June, I think.
21 Q. Okay. I want you to look, if you have your statement that you
22 gave on March 17th, 2000, available. I'd like to take you to - and I
23 apologise if the paragraphs are different in your B/C/S statement - but
24 one, two, three, four paragraphs down, the very last sentence of the
25 fourth paragraph in the English version says the following, and I want to
1 see if you can recall this your statement says this: "Later on the Red
2 Berets came, the chaos started. They arrived in the middle of May 1992."
3 A. That's not what it says in my text.
4 Q. It appears to me, even with my very, very limited knowledge, that
5 the very paragraph, the very last sentence of the fourth paragraph, says
6 May 1992. But let's don't get stuck on dates.
7 A. I'm sorry. You said the fourth paragraph, not the last sentence.
8 Q. Okay. Do you see that portion of your statement where you say
9 that they came around the middle of May 1992?
10 A. I see it, yes.
11 Q. And when you first saw the Red Berets, obviously they were wearing
12 red berets, but how else were they dressed? What sort of military
13 uniforms, if any, were they wearing?
14 A. They were in olive-green/grey uniforms. Some had neck scarfs.
15 That is what I saw.
16 Q. And you were at some time found out that they were from Doboj.
18 A. I said they had come from the direction of Doboj.
19 Q. Fair enough. Who was their leader? Who did you understand was
20 their leader?
21 A. I didn't know who the leader was at the time.
22 Q. And did you later come to find out who their leader was?
23 A. Yes, I did find that out later on.
24 Q. And who was the leader?
25 A. Piko.
1 Q. Okay. Once they arrived, they started beating on people on the
2 streets irregardless of their ethnicity?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And they operated in the town and were attacking people of all
5 ethnic groups. Correct?
6 A. Yes. They beat people all over the town. They didn't care who
7 was what.
8 Q. Were you aware that they even went to the Crisis Staff meeting and
9 assaulted the members of the Crisis Staff of the municipality?
10 A. I didn't know that.
11 Q. Okay. You were -- and when Ms. Richterova was asking you a
12 question, she showed you - and I'm done with that document, Madam Usher -
13 she showed you Exhibit P1969, which was a criminal record associated with
14 the individual you call Piko. Do you remember seeing that document?
15 A. I don't.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: With the Court's permission and the usher's
18 assistance, can we show him again P1969, please.
19 Q. Earlier we --
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I'm sorry to interrupt. It's only that I
21 tendered into exhibit the whole file, and I was only reading from one
22 particular statement from this whole file. So when Mr. Cunningham is
23 referring to Exhibit P1969, he is referring to the whole file.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think your -- rather than objection, I think
25 your observation is right. Perhaps you could --
1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I can clear it up.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We can clear it up. We can have the English version
3 put on the ELMO. At least we can look at the ERN numbers. And the same
4 we'll do after that with the B/C/S version, if there is a B/C/S version.
5 I would suppose that there is.
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's fine, Your Honour. And I apologise to
7 Ms. Richterova. I should have said an excerpt from P1969. And the ERN
8 number for the page, we were looking at page 4, the English version. This
9 was something that was pointed out to you earlier, sir. The ERN number is
11 Q. And to refresh your recollection, what was shown to you was the
12 second paragraph that begins with the phrase: "As for the confiscation of
13 properties from detainees or other citizens."
14 Now, having seen that document, again, do you remember talking
15 about it before the break?
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: I think the witness has English version. He
17 needs B/C/S version. And in B/C/S version, we are talking about second
18 page. And it's second page, third paragraph, in the middle.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember it.
20 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
21 Q. Okay. Now, Ms. Richterova asked you questions about what this
22 individual put in his statement, talking about the money that he took, and
23 I want to ask you some questions about the Mice in general.
24 While you were either in custody or released from custody, you
25 came into contact with the Mice. Correct?
1 A. I didn't understand your question.
2 Q. While you were in custody, while you were detained and while you
3 were -- after your release, you saw the Mice personally?
4 A. I did, yes.
5 Q. You also had conversations with people, either while you were in
6 custody or after your release, about the Mice and what they had done?
7 A. To begin with, Mice was a group of people. There wasn't only one
9 Q. And I understand that. I'm speaking of the group as a whole.
10 A. One of them -- after I was released, I was at home then at my
11 father's, and the one who used to beat me in tow came to that house and
12 beat me again, which means that he stayed on in Teslic. That is how I
13 made my conclusion.
14 Q. Right. And what you've just told us is the Mice beat you, and you
15 saw them beat other people while you were in custody.
16 A. That guy, yes.
17 Q. Okay. And you saw other members of the Mice while you were held
18 in the TO. Correct?
19 A. I'm telling you that I learned it all later on, that they were
20 called Mice and everything else, and about the berets.
21 Q. Okay. And what you learned later on is that these people known as
22 the Mice, for example, had been stealing jewellery, cash, personal
23 property, from people in the municipality. Right?
24 A. I said that they had taken it from us, that I had to turn over the
25 money that I had on me, my watch, the jewellery that I had, that I had to
1 turn it over when I was detained.
2 Q. And it wasn't just you; it was other detainees. Right?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And you know, either from it happening to you or happening to
5 someone from the municipality, they also took cars and vehicles from
6 people. Right?
7 A. I've heard about it.
8 Q. Okay. And you know from what you saw happen in the camp that they
9 were involved in the brutal beatings of people that were detained with
10 you. Correct?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. And you also know, from what you saw or what you heard after your
13 release, that the Mice were involved in the execution of individuals from
14 your municipality?
15 A. I don't know that.
16 Q. Okay. The Prosecutor asked you some questions earlier about the
17 Mice and what happened to them in the courts, and I want to ask you some
18 questions that follow up on the questions that she asked you. And if you
19 know, that's fine; and if you don't know, that's fine.
20 Did you know that the authorities in Teslic municipality requested
21 a forensic team to help them in the investigation of the Mice? Did you
22 know that?
23 A. I didn't.
24 Q. Did you know that -- and I want to make sure I have the
25 terminology right. Did you know that an investigating judge of the Teslic
1 Lower Court had ordered them detained?
2 A. I know nothing about it.
3 Q. Okay. Let me just move on. You know from what Ms. Richterova
4 suggested to you and showed you in exhibits today that, for some reason,
5 they were not prosecuted for the wrongs that they have done; right? You
6 know that?
7 A. Could you repeat it, please?
8 Q. Sure. As far -- and I'm going to rephrase it, and I'm not doing
9 it to confuse you, but let me see if I can make it a better question. You
10 know that the Mice have never been prosecuted, have never been brought to
11 court for the wrongs that they have done in your community. Right?
12 A. I do not know.
13 Q. That's fair. Let me move on to another subject.
14 I'm going to talk to you about your detention, and I'm not -- and
15 I know that this is a little bit out of order and I'd just ask you to bear
16 with me.
17 When you testified earlier, you were shown Exhibit P1929.
18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And with the Court's permission and the usher's
19 assistance, I'd like to show you the B/C/S copy of that.
20 Q. And I believe the Prosecutor questioned you about the very first
21 paragraph on the page, in the English version, the ERN number is
22 L0040195. I want you to look at the B/C/S version of that to make sure
23 that we are on the same page, that we're talking about the same document,
24 before I ask you a question about it. Let me know when you're done
25 reading the first paragraph.
1 A. I've finished reading.
2 Q. There's a sentence in there that reads as follows: "About 50
3 Muslims and Croats have been arrested in Teslic. There is information
4 that they were responsible for the organisation and creation of enemy
5 military formations and the organisers of weapons procurement and
7 That's what that paragraph says, and I believe Ms. Richterova
8 asked you: Is that you? Were you among the 50 people that were
9 arrested? Do you remember when she asked you that?
10 A. I remember that.
11 Q. How did you know that that statement refers to you?
12 A. Why, because it says 50 arrested individuals, and I was in the
14 Q. But I thought -- I thought - and correct me if I'm wrong - that at
15 times the camp it up to 200 people in it.
16 A. I'll do it slowly. In the beginning, at the SUP, from what I
17 could see in the bus, we were 40 to 50 people in the bus and we were lying
18 on the floor. And when we got to the TO, groups started arriving from
19 Rankovici, from Gornji Teslic, from Komusina, Banja Vrucica, and I stated
20 that we were about 100, 120.
21 Q. Okay. And in Rankovici and Komusina, those were the towns that --
22 at least Komusina was. Let me back up so I can make my question shorter.
23 You told us that one of the towns that people started arriving from was
24 from Komusina. Komusina is one of the towns that was a Bosniak town that
25 was offering resistance, armed resistance, against the authorities.
2 A. Incorrect.
3 Q. Okay. I'll just move on, because I'll get to another area.
4 While you were in custody, you told us that an individual- and
5 just to get you oriented, this is, I believe, close to the end of your
6 detention, before your release - an individual by the name of Radulovic
7 arrives. His -- I believe his nickname was Pile, P-i-l-e.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he made a speech to the detainees. Correct?
10 A. He did.
11 Q. And he said -- and he provided you with some items. I want to say
12 he gave you some food, gave the detainees food and cigarettes. Correct?
13 A. It is.
14 Q. And he told you that the maltreatment, the mistreatment, would
15 stop. Correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And it wasn't that day, but shortly after that speech, is when you
18 were released. Correct?
19 A. Yes, shortly after that.
20 Q. And I forgot to go over something with you while you were in
21 detention, and I apologise for that. I'm not trying to confuse you. But
22 I want to talk to you about one of the deaths, beating deaths, that you
23 witnessed while you were in detention, and that death involved a young
24 man, aged 17, by the name of Zlatan.
25 A. I said that he was 17 or 18.
1 Q. Okay. I'm not arguing with you over the age. I just have a
2 question. You told us that you knew him from work. Where did you work
3 with him at?
4 A. He worked for a private metal shop.
5 Q. Okay. And I don't -- I know I will show my ignorance of your
6 country, but would you have known him working when he was 15 or 16? How
7 old was he when you first came into contact with him?
8 A. I said he was 17 or maybe 18.
9 Q. I have a couple more areas to go over with you, and I'll try to do
10 them as quickly as I can. Ultimately, arrangements were made for you to
11 leave your municipality. Am I right?
12 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
13 Q. To leave your country, certain arrangements had to be made. For
14 example, you had to find the truck driver and pay the truck driver. Your
15 family had to find the truck driver and pay the truck driver to get you
16 out of the country. Correct?
17 A. To begin with, I had to leave. I had to flee. And I found -- and
18 it wasn't my family which paid, but I collected the money. And I didn't
19 even pay the full amount.
20 Q. And believe me, I'm not criticising you for what you did, but in
21 order to leave, you had to leave illegally, with a counterfeit passport.
23 A. Well, when you are travelling illegally, you don't need a
25 Q. Wasn't there a correction in your statement that came up during
1 proofing that, with the assistance of a policeman, you got some -- a
2 policeman pointed you or directed you to a place where you could get false
3 travel documents?
4 A. In Subotica, which is in Serbia, not in Bosnia.
5 Q. Okay. But just -- that happened. That is, you got those --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- documents? Okay. I see you answered the question. There's
8 one final question, and again I apologise, because I'm going to go back to
9 something that you witnessed. I believe you told us that at one time, you
10 saw the former commander --
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry to -- I apologise. I didn't react
12 quickly. But I can't see anywhere in his statement that --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's in the -- Madam Richterova, it's in the other
15 statement of 13th June 2002.
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: I apologise.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the last paragraph, where he makes some
18 alterations or changes or explanations with regard to page 6 of his
19 original statement.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: I can see. I really apologise for this
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I promise this is the last area I'll ask you
24 Q. In your testimony earlier today you told us that at one time you
25 saw the commander, Sabinko, being beaten. Do you remember testifying
1 about that today?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And he was - correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he being beaten
4 by the individuals that you associated with being the Mice?
5 A. I've stated, and my statement was given after all this. These
6 people who brought me in were Berets, or Mice.
7 Q. Okay. And the people that were doing the beating on Mr. Sabinko,
8 were they the Red Berets, the Mice?
9 A. Pika's men.
10 Q. And do you know, happen to know, what ethnic group Mr. Sabinko
11 belongs to?
12 A. He was a Muslim.
13 Q. That's all the questions I have, sir. I wish you a safe journey
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is there re-examination, Madam Richterova?
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: There is no re-examination.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Janu, do you have any questions?
18 We have some questions for you. It will soon be over. If you're
19 too tired, we can postpone them, but we can finish now. I think it will
20 be better for everyone.
21 Yes, Judge Janu.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Witness, when you were describing us the death of
24 one of these young boys, that older one, Zlatan, you mentioned also that
25 there were 16-year-old boy. You didn't name him in your statement. You
1 only said that he was from Rankovici. You said his family name was
2 Begovic. Yes. And you said he was also severely beaten by Boban
3 Jovanovic, and you also said that you asked for some guards to help him,
4 but they didn't. Do you remember the name of this guard or those guards
5 who were asked to bring some medical aid to this boy, or you don't
7 A. I can't remember the exact names of those who were standing guard
8 at that time. No, I can't remember.
9 JUDGE JANU: You can't remember. Okay. And my second and last
10 question is: Are you back at your house, or did you restitute this house,
11 or are you still living abroad?
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry. I think we should redact the last
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So be it. Yes. The -- where he's living now should
17 not be communicated to the public. So it will be redacted, for your own
19 Judge Taya, do you have --
20 I have a few questions to ask you. In your statement, apart from
21 Tomo Mihajlovic and Milorad Panic, you had also mentioned Milovan Djukic
22 and a certain person, individual, with the name of Petrovic. Do you
23 remember these two persons at the TO building, being guards over there?
24 A. I remember.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Were they policemen, military, or part of the Mice
2 A. They were policemen. One of them was a policeman, and the other,
3 I learned at the time, was a member of the Mice group.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one?
5 A. Petrovic.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take Zlatan now. Who would you say, according
7 to what you witnessed, would be responsible for his death, directly,
8 physically responsible for his death?
9 A. I can't remember the exact name of the lad with whom Zlatan had
10 been brought in, and this lad told me that they had been beaten by Boban
11 and the other person whose name was Damir and whose last name I can't
12 remember at the moment.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But earlier on, when you were telling us about
14 Zlatan and how he asked you for a pillow and he needed to be covered
15 before he died, you told us that he himself told you who had beaten him
16 up. Did he mention a name to you?
17 A. He mentioned the names, but he was in such a condition that he
18 couldn't really talk. So this other lad later on told me everything.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other young man who in your statement you
20 referred to as Enes Begovic, from the village of Rankovici, who would you
21 say is responsible for his death, directly and physically responsible for
22 his death?
23 A. I would say that it was Boban, but I am not sure. I've told you
24 that I saw him running past him and hitting him in the head with his rifle
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, am I right that Boban Jovanovic was from
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he there as a policeman, as a military, or as a
5 member of Mice, part of Mice?
6 A. He was a member of the Mice or the Berets. I don't know which one
7 of those.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: You have seen the list of the Mice group that were
9 originally put under investigations and arrested or detained. I put it to
10 you that Boban Jovanovic's name is not there. Could you think of a reason
11 why his name would not be there if he participated in the killing of these
12 two persons, young men?
13 A. I wouldn't be able to say anything about that.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know if Boban Jovanovic is still alive today?
15 A. I've heard.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is Teslic now part of Republika Srpska?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Is Doboj part of Republika Srpska?
19 A. Yes, but not all of it.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Did Boban Jovanovic have any connection with Doboj,
21 that you know of?
22 A. I don't know.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know if Boban Jovanovic still resides in
24 Teslic today?
25 A. According to what I've heard, he's in Sweden.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: In your statement, you said that: I heard that
2 Boban Jovanovic is now in Sweden and that he got asylum. Why would he ask
3 for and obtain asylum in Sweden if he resided before that in a town or in
4 a village or in a municipality that forms part of Republika Srpska? What
5 is he running away from?
6 A. I really don't know.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Why would he seek asylum in a foreign country?
8 A. I don't know. I only heard that he sought an asylum.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know the Glas newspaper?
10 A. No.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You've never seen the Glas newspaper?
12 A. Glas? No.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You were shown document 1935 before. Perhaps we can
14 have it shown to him again, 1935. It's the Serb -- that's the name of
15 the -- you've never seen that newspaper in your life, never come across
16 that newspaper or heard about it?
17 A. I may have, but I really never paid too much attention to its
18 name. I'm sorry. This is the first time that I actually see Glas.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And you wouldn't know whether it's -- where it's
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's all.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You see me smiling, and that's because we have
25 finished with you, and you should be smiling too, because now you can
1 leave this courtroom and go back to your country of residence. Before you
2 do so, however, I want to put your mind at rest that you will be given all
3 the attention and assistance you require by our staff to enable you to
4 return to your country. And on behalf of the Tribunal and the two Judges,
5 Judge Janu from the Czech Republic and Judge Taya from Japan, I should
6 like to thank you for having come over to give testimony in this trial.
7 My last words to you is have a safe journey back home. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while.
11 [Private session]
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
11 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
12 the 4th day of June 2003, at 9.00 a.m.