Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17968

1 Monday, 23 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call

6 the case, please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you follow

10 the proceedings in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

12 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone switched off.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

14 can follow you in a language that I can understand?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner assisted by Denise Gustin, case

17 manager, good morning, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you too.

19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Morning, Your Honours, I'm John Ackerman I'm here

21 with David Cunningham and Aleksandar Vujic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you too. Any

23 preliminaries. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. I do have. I need to bring Your

25 Honour up to date regarding the treasury department issue and put some

Page 17969

1 additional information on the record in that regard. Based upon

2 information from the U.S. Embassy last week I called David Mills at the

3 U.S. Treasury and I was advised that I would be issued a licence within 24

4 to 48 hours of receipt of a letter from me requesting one. That letter

5 was sent, it would have arrived in Washington early on Thursday afternoon.

6 No licence has yet been issued and I have this morning sent another fax to

7 treasury in that regard. I also want to place on the record a short note

8 which I sent to Mr. Larry Johnson, the chef de cabinet of -- the President

9 of our Tribunal. Having had some time to study the 19 June letter to the

10 President from our Richard Newcombe, two things have caught my attention.

11 First of all the CFR requires the issuance of a licence. I was instructed

12 to contact David Mills by telephone to expedite the issuance of a licence.

13 I was advised to submit a letter by fax and that a licence would be issued

14 in 24 to 48 hours. I have yet to receive a licence. Do I not think the

15 Newcombe letter is a licence. It is simply a conditional authorisation.

16 It requires submission by U.S. lawyers of unspecified information by 29

17 June 2003.

18 What about U.S. lawyers who undertake representations after that

19 date? Also and maybe of greatest concern is this line from the

20 letter: "All such payments must come from sources not currently within

21 the United States or within the possession or control of a U.S. person."

22 I'm not sure what this means. To a very large extent I believe the funds

23 I have been paid here have come in part from contributions by the U.S.

24 through the UN or directly to ICTY. Finally, contrary to representations

25 apparently made to President Meron, there is no language in the letter

Page 17970

1 that would make its authorisation retroactive if to the beginning of my

2 representation.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please, Mr. Ackerman?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I'm sorry. Finally, contrary to

5 representations apparently made to President Meron, there is no language

6 in the letter that would make its authorisation retroactive to the

7 beginning of my representation of Mr. Brdjanin or the beginning of

8 services provided by other U.S. lawyers at the Tribunal. I believe these

9 matters must be cleared up quickly.

10 And I just wanted to make that a matter of record and advise the

11 Trial Chamber that at least in my view, this matter has not yet been fully

12 resolved. And I might say, Your Honour, that if I were asked to provide

13 legal advice to someone in the position I find myself in right now, I,

14 being conservative would advise them that they are not yet on firm ground

15 with regard to this issue.

16 The second thing I want to bring up this morning is

17 this: Mr. Cunningham and I are facing an extraordinarily difficult

18 situation with regard to the current scheduling and the upcoming

19 witnesses. I have been frankly, Your Honour, working beyond what I should

20 have to be prepared for today and in some ways preparing for today's

21 witness is easy compared to what we have to do next week. I'm quite

22 exhausted. I've taken one day off in the last month, which is much less

23 than I should have done. Your advice when I first returned that I need to

24 be careful with my health or I'll pay is good advice. I'm simply unable

25 to do that on the schedule that we are pursuing right now, Your Honour.

Page 17971

1 Especially considering the magnitude of the witnesses upcoming in this

2 case.

3 I think I can make it through this week. Mr. Cunningham is also

4 exhausted. He mentioned to me last night that the work load we have right

5 now is a work load that requires five lawyers, not two. We are trying to

6 train a completely new staff. We have a new case manager, legal

7 assistant. We have a couple of new interns trying to learn how to assist

8 us. We need time. And what I'm asking is this: Bearing in mind that if

9 we had been on the kind of schedule that we pursued throughout the course

10 of this trial so far, we would be at the point right now where we would

11 probably have about a week off, and that's what I'm asking you to let us

12 have next week is a week off. With that week, I think Mr. Cunningham and

13 I can prepare to finish up the rest of this case but I assure you that if

14 we do not have that time, we are not going to be able to conduct proper

15 cross-examinations of the expert witnesses that are coming from the

16 Prosecution. The material, just the material that we have to deal with,

17 is voluminous and huge and difficult.

18 Now, I understand, because we have discussed it, that there is a

19 problem with regard to timing in this case and when we will get to the end

20 of it, at the time we need to get to it. All I can do, Your Honour, is

21 assure you that taking a week next week to give us a chance to prepare

22 properly will not affect the end of this case. I suggest that that bridge

23 can be crossed when we come to it. Whether it involves -- whatever it

24 involves, I think we can get there and I can assure you that we will get

25 there because to some extent I will control that process, with regard to

Page 17972

1 the scheduling of witnesses and things of that nature.

2 That would require adding at least another week to the

3 Prosecution's time to give us that preparation time next week but I just

4 feel that it's absolutely crucial for me to be able to give any kind of

5 adequate representation to Mr. Brdjanin, for Mr. Brdjanin to continue to

6 have a fair trial in this case. I know that's a large request but I think

7 it's --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And you're not going to get it, Mr. Ackerman. I'm

9 afraid I have the responsibility for -- for managing this trial, as I have

10 explained before, I am not prepared to take the risk of a working to a

11 schedule which will not allow for any calamity, for any contingency that

12 might arise. What you are saying is, and what the Prosecution has put

13 forward, is absolutely unacceptable to me. We have to finish the case for

14 the Prosecution by the 1st of August. If there is cross-examination, that

15 you cannot cope with, I will reserve it for you and you will conduct it

16 when you are dealing with your case later on when we start with the

17 Defence. But I am not in a position -- for example, a week ago, we had

18 absolutely no idea that were you coming forward and telling us I am tired,

19 we are tired, we need a week off. And this is what I mean. A week ago,

20 we were told examination-in-chief we only require five minutes more, ten

21 minutes more, and then all of a sudden it was 35 minutes. I simply cannot

22 go on like this. I'm afraid I have allowed you, both the Prosecution and

23 the Defence, too much space and what has happened is that we are now in

24 the position where I need to discipline you, both of you, according to

25 what I consider to be absolutely necessary for this case to finish by the

Page 17973

1 deadline that circumstances have put. So I understand that this may not

2 be easy but don't put me in a position where I have to react and say we

3 cannot go on like this.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, you've just suggested a solution which

5 I think is probably satisfactory.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's put it like this, Mr. Ackerman, one moment,

7 because next week I'm going to be told that Mr. Cunningham needs to go to

8 the States and I understand that and that you will be shouldering the

9 burden yourself for a whole week. Share the burden as you like, but

10 please don't let me stop for one single hour between now and the 1st of

11 August and we have to finish by the 1st of August. If you're not in a

12 position to conduct the cross-examination, we will leave it until later

13 but we have to finish by the 1st of August. And this is something which

14 is at my prerogative as the Presiding Judge and I will be the one who will

15 be taking decisions and I'm not going to budge for one single minute on

16 this 1st August deadline.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I fully understand that it's your

18 prerogative and I'm certainly not standing here trying to tell you what to

19 do. I was simply making a request. But you have come up with a solution

20 that I think is satisfactory so I'm satisfied with that.

21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, there is one problem that arises

22 out of that. And --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: There is more than one problem, Ms. Korner. I'm

24 going to send you back offering you to withdraw it instead of me ordering

25 that it be expunged from the records of this case. You sent us a

Page 17974

1 Prosecution submission of statement of expert witness pursuant to Rule 94

2 bis. This is the expert on propaganda, a Croat educated in Slovenia, who

3 starts her report by saying: "The International Criminal Tribunal for the

4 former Yugoslavia commissioned the content analysis of official documents

5 of Republika Srpska Autonomous Region of Krajina, certain municipalities

6 and the Serbian Democratic Party." When did we commission this lady to

7 make this report for us? That's number 1.

8 The task of the researchers at the Faculty of Social Sciences

9 University of Ljubljana was to analyse the content of official documents

10 and mass media and to establish a connection between the propaganda

11 activities and the events that took place on the ground. A special

12 attention was given to the role played by the indicted persons, Radoslav

13 Brdjanin and Momir Talic in this process. Is this the purpose of an

14 expert witness to tell us that the accused is guilty.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, well, I'm sorry, that's a total

16 misreading.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a total misreading. Three-fourths of the

18 report is what Mr. Brdjanin may have said on TV. What Mr. Brdjanin is

19 reported to have said in the newspaper. Is that an expert's report?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters cannot keep up.

21 MS. KORNER: Look at what Mr. Brdjanin said within the context of

22 how propaganda works, that there would be no point in making a --

23 producing a report that didn't look at anything --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You've got it all rote. We will not accept any

25 expert report or report of an expert witness which deals precisely with

Page 17975

1 the activities of the accused, an expert witness is here to tell us, give

2 us his expertise on a particular matter and not to testify on the accused.

3 That's number 1.

4 Secondly, because we are supposed to have commissioned this

5 content analysis, we have also selected the documents on which this report

6 is being based.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: There is what the report says.

9 MS. KORNER: They have to make a selection, Your Honour there is

10 thousands and thousands of documents.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Who made the selection?

12 MS. KORNER: They made the selection.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Who made the selection?

14 MS. KORNER: Sorry, they made the selection.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, no, no. The researchers examined the

16 material that the ICTY made available for us. We made the material

17 available to them. So you have got until the end of today to withdraw

18 this document and second thing, if it is represented with the contents

19 regarding Mr. Talic, General Talic, and Mr. Brdjanin, the Defence is going

20 to be exempted, dispensed with any cross-examination and that gives you an

21 indication of how much importance we are going to give it.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in that event, the expert --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: This is an abuse of the whole idea of being allowed

24 to get here an expert witness, an abuse, a blatant abuse.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in our submission, it is not an abuse.

Page 17976

1 It is a perfectly proper aspect of an expert's report that they should

2 look at what the defendant or the accused said. Your Honour, I'm sorry

3 that it said the ICTY. I didn't pick that up when I reread it. If Your

4 Honour rules that we can't call that witness, then Your Honour will rule

5 that we can't call that witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from the fact that it has not been disclosed

7 within the 30 days that is specified, contemplated by the Rules --

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the reason it hasn't been disclosed is

9 because, Your Honour, we disclosed it in time had we been sitting at the

10 end of August, because she was going to testify then. That was dealt with

11 before Your Honour made the ruling that we were not to sit beyond the 1st

12 of August.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I'm sorry, I will not accept that

14 explanation. It's absolutely --

15 MS. KORNER: Is Your Honour saying --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It is not an explanation --

17 MS. KORNER: Is Your Honour saying --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- with regard to other expert witnesses the report

19 was disclosed months before, months.

20 MS. KORNER: Actually not, Your Honour, no.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no? Of course not. Of course not.

22 MS. KORNER: Is Your Honour suggesting that I'm lying to Your

23 Honour?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I'm suggesting that there is no reason why

25 this should not or could not have been disclosed earlier.

Page 17977

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we got the report from the expert, I

2 can't remember the date, but a couple of days before it was disclosed.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, there is no reason why you should not have

4 insisted for it before, because this deals with General Talic so it is a

5 report that must have been written months and months and months ago.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it wasn't a report. There was a draft

7 that was written, then there was further information that came in. Your

8 Honour, one of the difficulties we've had throughout with experts is that

9 we have been translating documents as we go through the trial. And so as

10 these documents come up, they clearly become relevant. Now, Your Honour,

11 we got this report, I don't know how many days before, we told Your Honour

12 because it was on the original application and list, that the expert could

13 not testify until the end of August. That --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Because she had her holiday booked.

15 MS. KORNER: That's correct, and if Your Honour looks at the

16 original submission for timing that we put in, this would have been

17 disclosed well within the 30 days. I hope Your Honour will accept that.

18 If Your Honour does not accept it, well, then I hope Your Honour will tell

19 me because there were certain --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case, that is beside the point at this point

21 in time, Ms. Korner. I think we cannot accept on record a report which

22 starts with an affirmation which is not true. Which is false.

23 MS. KORNER: Sorry, you cannot use language like that. It was an

24 error on that part, but to say it is not true ...

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It is absolutely not true. It's not an error,

Page 17978

1 Ms. Korner. It's not an error. One day anyone who is studying the

2 records of this case will come across this report which makes out of this

3 as an ex officio expert and not as an ex parte expert report.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we can put a correction in but for Your

5 Honour to suggest that this was done deliberately to mislead is in my

6 submission simply an outrageous suggestion. These are --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't use that language, Ms. Korner.

8 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour is using language which is --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I am using language which arises out of the face of

10 the document. If anyone reads this document that person is going to

11 conclude that this is a report by an expert appointed by the Tribunal and

12 that is absolutely not true.

13 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honour, that was an error. I'm merely

14 quarrelling with your language.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Any way, Ms. Korner, take it back because we are not

16 going to accept it any way. And if it is represented in the form that it

17 is, dealing precisely with Mr. Brdjanin and General Talic, I told you

18 precisely from -- as from now what use we are going to put to it.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour has every right to reject the filing and

20 that is an end of the matter.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That is not an expert witness report. That is

22 evidence on the accused using the pretext of expertise to tell the

23 Tribunal the accused is guilty. Please find him guilty. And we will not

24 accept that.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say this? Propaganda is merely

Page 17979

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Page 17980

1 one element. They are not saying that the accused is guilty. Propaganda

2 goes to the counts of persecutions and genocide. They are saying within

3 the scheme of propaganda, this is how the defendant's utterances come.

4 It's a different matter to say, "You should find him guilty." Your

5 Honour, that's not what the report says and not for one moment does it say

6 that. It simply says, "We are experts in the use of propaganda, here is

7 the model and this is what the defendant's utterances come into within

8 that model," and it's for Your Honours to accept or reject that expert

9 evidence.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Expert evidence should be an evidence on a

11 particular matter on which the Tribunal needs expertise. But the Tribunal

12 does not need expertise to understand or to look at a particular newspaper

13 cutting or a particular video recording or a particular transmission or

14 the transcript of a speech. We don't need an expert. We will reach the

15 decision ourselves when we read those transcripts and for an expert to

16 come here and try to influence us basing herself or himself on the

17 supposed expertise, influencing us that according to expert there is no

18 way we could look at those documents but in an incriminating manner is an

19 abuse of the process. An expert should not -- an expert should never

20 involve himself or herself in deciding a matter which the Tribunal has to

21 decide.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is perfectly entitled to say we don't

23 need expert evidence on this. That's a totally different matter.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I can assure you, Ms. Korner that if we had

25 appointed an expert on propaganda, we would certainly not have chosen a

Page 17981

1 Croat or a Slovenian.

2 MS. KORNER: That is simply a suggestion said in open public.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

4 MS. KORNER: That someone who because they happen to be a Croat

5 cannot give an unbiased opinion. Your Honour, that is simply something

6 which in our submission ought not to be said.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think everyone would feel much more comfortable if

8 an independent, someone who has absolutely nothing to do with the whole

9 story and who doesn't come from the region, from the area, it would have

10 been much, much better and I can assure you we would never dream of

11 appointing as an expert witness or as an expert someone who has come --

12 who comes from the region or who even on the face of it may send even

13 though there is absolutely no shadow of -- to indicate that this is so.

14 But the idea of throwing into the arena someone coming from the area

15 itself to tell us whether the Serbian propaganda machine was conducive to

16 what happened, do you think it's wise?

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, these are Slovenians, they are

18 acknowledged experts and have published on the propaganda of the region.

19 It is also important that whoever deals with this is able to speak the

20 language but, Your Honour, I think we are now, with respect, wasting what

21 is -- Your Honour has made clear is valuable time. I hear what Your

22 Honour says. Your Honour is rejecting the report. You do not need

23 expertise on that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not saying that, Ms. Korner. I am saying I

25 will not in the first place accept a report which on the face of it

Page 17982

1 presents itself as being a report commissioned by this Tribunal when this

2 is not so.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we can certainly make that absolutely

4 clear but as it's served on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor, I

5 don't think anybody will think that the Tribunal ordered this report.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I simply don't understand how you think that,

7 Ms. Korner, because anyone who reads this report can only think that it

8 has been commissioned by the ICTY. Which is not true.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there is nothing more I can say about

10 that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither do I. Neither do I. I think we can bring

12 in the witness.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before that, please, first, in the light

14 of what Your Honours do -- I take it Your Honour's ruling is that there

15 will be no further time.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course there will be no further time. Definitely.

17 MS. KORNER: Then the question that I stood to ask Your Honour was

18 this --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: There is going to be an extension for the Rule 98

20 bis for sure, both of you. I mean both Prosecution and the Defence. We

21 still have to discuss some of the details but there we are going to --

22 MS. KORNER: We would prefer, and I make this absolutely clear as

23 I have to Your Honour, that the witnesses who are coming up are so

24 important that we would prefer to have the extra time to call the witness

25 rather than the extension of the Rule 98.

Page 17983

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You'll get that if Mr. Ackerman withdraws his

2 request for more time to file the Rule 98 bis motion. If he withdraws

3 that and restricts it to two weeks and you cut it down to seven days, then

4 yes we might consider that. Otherwise not.

5 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, my application is again, that

6 because of the importance of these witnesses, and indeed to accommodate

7 Mr. Ackerman's desire for further cross-examination, that we be given at

8 the very least that week at the end of August. But Your Honour, the

9 second thing is this: If cross-examination is adjourned until after the

10 close of the Prosecution case, and goes into, as it were, the Defence

11 case, then, Your Honour, how is that evidence to be treated for the

12 purposes of Rule 98? Because there has been no cross-examination, whereas

13 we will want to rely on it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: There you have a point, yes, but we are not going to

15 beyond the 1st of August deadline. So you have to make arrangements, you

16 yourself. I have a document here which goes back to May in which you

17 indicated that you were already concerned that there is a great

18 possibility that we will impose a time limit within which you have to

19 finish your case, and the time limit has come, the 1st of August, and we

20 not going to budge on that. I can assure you there ask no way we can

21 budge on that, except as I said there is two weeks and one week then maybe

22 we can contemplate that but --

23 MS. KORNER: I don't want to carry this on because it seems to me

24 it's a pointless argument but I would remind Your Honours that for a very

25 long time I've been asking about this, and for a very long time I have

Page 17984

1 been objecting to the weeks off that we had. And, Your Honour, it's in

2 the interests -- I hope I've made this clear, of Your Honours coming to a

3 just conclusion to the international community who are following this

4 trial that witnesses of the importance who are coming up now are unable to

5 give their evidence fully and --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not my problem. You chose to leave Kotor Varos

7 to the very end, Ms. Korner.

8 MS. KORNER: I did, Your Honour, because Your Honour gave me no

9 indication that we would have this happening to us.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner had examination-in-chief been kept within

11 the number of hours and number of days that you had indicated as we went

12 along, we would have finished something like four or five months ago.

13 Unfortunately, what we were told was going to be a one-day witness became

14 two or sometimes three-day witness. What was a two-day witness became

15 three- or four-day witness as we went along and I certainly cannot blame

16 it on the Defence. I'm being very plain on this. I simply can blame it

17 on bad management of the case.

18 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that leads me to the next

19 question: How much time are you going to give me for the witness today?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: How much time do you require, Mr. Ackerman, for

21 cross-examining this witness? I know that this is an important witness.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm still in the middle of

23 preparation. It's looking to me like about a day and a half. That's what

24 it looks like.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And you had planned to have this witness here for

Page 17985

1 two days or three days, Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: Two days.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Two days. Will the -- how much time do you think

4 you require?

5 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour has seen the list of entries that I

6 would like to refer to. It's a question of what Your Honours -- Your

7 Honour said you were going to impose a time limit. I would suggest it is

8 a little unfair to say I will be given one hour and Mr. Ackerman a full

9 day and a half.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But you have a diary which we can read and you have

11 summarised it for us by pages so I frankly don't know what you want to ask

12 your witness.

13 MS. KORNER: I want to draw the attention of the witness to

14 various entries and ask him about how they were made.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: How do you compare this witness with the other two

16 that you have the rest of the week?

17 MS. KORNER: The one, the following, is obviously an important

18 witness from the point of view of the Defence.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you limit yourself to presenting the

20 statement of the next witness and reserving the rest of the time for

21 cross-examination and the same with the other witness?

22 MS. KORNER: No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No. So it's your problem. I don't know. I will

24 give you one hour and you have to finish within one hour, today's witness.

25 In fact, when we met in my chambers that Monday or Tuesday, you yourself

Page 17986

1 said that you could easily present the diary and let Mr. Ackerman do the

2 cross-examination without even putting any questions to the witness.

3 MS. KORNER: I could but it would be a --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But you said you could and if you could if I give

5 you one hour, that's more than enough.

6 MS. KORNER: Thank you so much, Your Honour. There is one other

7 matter and that is that the witness is very concerned that there are a

8 large number of people mentioned in his diary, full name, who are still

9 living in Banja Luka. At the moment, the pages will be brought up on the

10 screen. That of course will mean that sometimes the names are visible to

11 the public.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And what do you suggest?

13 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm going to suggest closed session. I don't

14 see how it's going to work otherwise.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Same position always, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think what Ms. Korner is suggesting, I went

18 through what I could on this, here -- I think it's wise to go into closed

19 session. What I doubt is whether we should be closed session throughout

20 the whole evidence of this witness.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it seems to me that we don't have to

22 project the documents on the screen. We have them.

23 MS. KORNER: The judges only have them on CD.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Apparently the Registrar is saying otherwise.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: If we can direct the witness to avoid mentioning

Page 17987

1 names.

2 MS. KORNER: It's not -- the fact is that he's going -- the diary

3 in English will go up on the screen. I mean there is no other way of

4 doing it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Does it have to go on the screen?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Can't we keep that from going outside the

7 courtroom? Can't we just block that part from going outside?

8 MS. KORNER: That's fine, if that's all right.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Rather than go to full closed session.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's agree on this. We will -- I don't

11 think that we need to -- and if we need to at any particular moment then

12 we go into closed session.

13 MS. KORNER: The alternative to not putting the page up on the

14 screen or whatever is for me to ask the witness to read out the entry

15 which is a complete waste of time.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But you can direct the witness to the entry. He

17 reads it without reading it aloud and then we can proceed.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I take it the concern is not having

19 it on -- not with the problem with having it on the scene in the courtroom

20 but having it broadcast outside this courtroom. And I think the

21 audiovisual people can simply keep it within the courtroom so it's not

22 broadcast outside and that solves the problem, doesn't it?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I'm not technical enough to know

24 whether that is possible or not.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it is possible, Your Honour. We simply not

Page 17988

1 to broadcast that part.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Are you happy with that?

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I want it make sure that the

5 technicians have grasped the whole idea.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I believe so. You have assurance of our

7 technicians.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. It's not a question of doubting what they

9 will do. I want to make sure that they know precisely what's expected of

10 them. All right.

11 So the witness does not enjoy --

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, he does.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He does, yeah, of course.

14 MS. KORNER: Image distortion.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have to bring down the curtains for a while,

16 until he comes in.

17 MS. KORNER: It's image only.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Is it BT97?

19 MS. KORNER: No, 94. No voice distortion.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's check for sure.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- there was -- this was BT94? No?

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: This is pseudonym -- good morning to you, sir.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you.

Page 17989

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you can follow the proceedings in a

4 language that you can understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You are about to start giving evidence very shortly.

7 Before you do so, our Rules require that you make a solemn declaration to

8 the effect that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the

9 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It's the equivalent of

10 an oath. The text is contained in the document that you've just been

11 given. Please read it outloud and that will be your undertaking with this

12 Tribunal.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS BT94

16 [Witness answered through Interpreter]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, please take your seat.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it the first time you are giving evidence before

20 this Tribunal?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The procedure is pretty much similar to what it is

23 in basically all domestic jurisdictions. You will first be asked a series

24 of questions by Ms. Korner who is appearing for the Prosecution and then

25 she will be followed by Mr. Ackerman who is representing Mr. Brdjanin in

Page 17990

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Page 17991

1 this case and who will cross-examine you. You asked for some protective

2 measures, namely image distortion and a pseudonym. You will not be

3 referred to by your name in the course of these proceedings. You are

4 going to be referred to by a number. You are BT94. And if you look at

5 your monitor, and the cameras focus on you, this is how others will be

6 seeing you outside this courtroom. May I ask the cameraman to focus the

7 camera on the witness, please. This is how others will see you and that

8 is image distortion. Thank you. Ms. Korner

9 Examined by Ms. Korner:

10 Q. Sir, can you have a look, please, at a piece of paper and just

11 identify that you're the person referred to there?

12 A. Yes, that's my name.

13 MS. KORNER: Could that please be made P2323 under seal?

14 Q. Sir, I'd like to go, please, and ask you a few questions about

15 your background and I'd like to go into private session, please?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

17 [Private session]

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17992

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. During the course of the events of 1992, and 1993, did you keep a

15 diary?

16 A. Yes. I kept a diary.

17 Q. And can you just tell Their Honours how you would make the entries

18 in the diaries?

19 A. To start with, it was supposed to be a diary. I wrote about

20 personal impressions, about everything that was going on around me, but

21 then the diary developed into a black chronicle of my town and there were,

22 in the end 150 people who were bringing me information that I was

23 entering.

24 Q. In your diary, as Their Honours have seen, having read through the

25 whole thing, there are quotes from Glas, and in many cases articles as

Page 17993

1 well as other newspapers. How would you record those in your diary? In

2 other words, was it a summary or would you copy word for word what was in

3 the newspapers?

4 A. Well, that depended on the type of the text, what kind of

5 interview it was. Sometimes I literally transcribed everything. In fact

6 in most of the cases if I thought that there should be a trace, that it

7 should be recorded and remembered, that is what I entered into my diary.

8 Q. We will also see, in the diary, although we may not see it in

9 court today, but in the diary are contained full -- what appear to be full

10 transcripts of radio interviews. How did you record those in your diary?

11 A. I recorded radio programmes which I thought to be interesting. I

12 recorded news, particularly interviews with the then leading

13 personalities, and then I would transcribe it. I would type it out.

14 Q. Did you keep the tapes, the cassettes or whatever you were

15 recording on or did you then reuse them?

16 A. For a while, I kept them, but later on, I was no longer able to do

17 that because I had no money to buy new tapes so then after I transcribed a

18 recording, I would then reuse the tapes for a new recording.

19 Q. All right. Now, I'm afraid, sir, I've been given a time limit on

20 how long I can ask you questions for, so I'm going to ask you, please,

21 just to look at one or two entries. I'm going to ask, Your Honour, that

22 his statements be made an exhibit now, if I'm to be given so little time.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. [Microphone not activated] Is there any

24 objection on your part, Mr. Ackerman?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour.

Page 17994

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So the statements --

2 MS. KORNER: There are three statements Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's identify them and give them a number straight

4 away. Which one do you want to start with?

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we better take them in chronological

6 order. The first is the 9th of October, 2001.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

8 MS. KORNER: The second is the 24th of November, 2001.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment, one moment. So this will be

10 the first one? P?

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I would like them maybe P2324.1.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The next one is 24 November, 2001.

13 MS. KORNER: So it would be 2324.2.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

15 MS. KORNER: And the last made yesterday will be .3.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have the last one made yesterday? Because I

17 don't have it. I don't have the last one.

18 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, I take it Your Honour would take it

19 as if the witness has said every word that's in these statements?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what it means.

21 MS. KORNER:

22 Q. Now, can I take you just to --

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me just a minute.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: In light of what Ms. Korner just said, it seems to

Page 17995

1 me, if the Court is going to take it that he said every word that's in the

2 statements, then there should be some oath by him that what he said in the

3 statements is true and correct.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously. I would expect Ms. Korner to put that

5 question. I don't think she needs to be directed by the Trial Chamber on

6 that.

7 MS. KORNER:

8 Q. Sir, I think you followed that. You made three statements to the

9 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor. Is what you said in

10 those statements true?

11 A. It is absolutely the truth.

12 Q. And to the best of your recollection obviously because they were

13 taken ten years or so after the events, is your -- what you said in there

14 accurate?

15 A. Yes. It is accurate, and because I relied on my diary, I was not

16 remembering, I was writing things down.

17 Q. Now, I'd like you to have a look, please at a couple of entries

18 only. First of all, Thursday, the 27th of February. If somebody would

19 like to give it to him, please?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, can the documents be placed on the

21 ELMO or else could the interpreters be provided with copies of the diary?

22 MS. KORNER: I think this particular entry can go on to the

23 screen.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's -- do you have it available in the

25 English language?

Page 17996

1 MS. KORNER: It's going to come up on the screen, or we'll try.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I see on the screen is something completely

3 different at the moment.

4 Usher, if you have the English version -- Ms. Gustin?

5 MS. KORNER: Do Your Honours have it now on the screen?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Yes.

7 MS. KORNER:

8 Q. You will see there at the top, sir, you were recording that on the

9 27th of February, 1992, there was an explosion and damage to the tomb of

10 somebody called Pasa Sokolovic, builder of a mosque named after him, which

11 completely destroyed the front door of the burial site and we can see the

12 damage described. Did you yourself -- this was a report from Radio Banja

13 Luka, but did you yourself see the damage to that mosque? Or tomb, I

14 should say? I'm sorry.

15 A. Yes, I did see it.

16 Q. And throughout your diary, in 1992, you record attacks on mosques

17 or some attacks on mosques. When you recorded that, did you go and have a

18 look at the damage yourself?

19 A. No. I did not go every time, but I had people who did that, and

20 who enjoyed my complete confidence.

21 Q. But on this one you did see yourself, did you, this damage?

22 A. Yes, I did see that.

23 Q. Now, I'd like you, please, to move on in your diary to the 29th of

24 February. And if we -- I'd like you to find the part where you were

25 quoting an item of news from the radio station relating to the Serbian

Page 17997

1 Radical Party.

2 A. I found it.

3 Q. Right. And it was putting out something about the referendum that

4 was to be held. Serbs who participate in the referendum will run afoul of

5 their people. The troops the souls of dead heroes and so on. And then,

6 the Serbian Democratic Party put out its own release. If you go to the

7 next part, the next page. Right. And we see: "Do not participate in the

8 referendum, brother and sister Serbs, it's an Islamic state, a knife at

9 the throat of Serbian children, Serbian mothers," and so on and so forth.

10 Throughout your diary, you record this type of what I'm going to

11 call propaganda, and as we see throughout the time, it got worse and

12 worse. From what you saw, what effect was this type of proclamation or

13 things being said on media, what effect was that having on the Serbs in

14 Banja Luka?

15 A. Well, a bad influence, not just on the citizens [as interpreted],

16 on the urban part, but particularly on the rural part. It had a

17 catastrophic influence. They were convinced they were under threat, and

18 every word that was uttered through the media represented a law to them.

19 Q. Did you listen to radio programmes where people rang in?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. Do you remember any particular type of radio programme where it

22 could be seen what effect this type of propaganda was having?

23 A. Well, if you have enough patience, I can, for instance, mention

24 one, just one programme, of the type, and that was evening talk show

25 hosted by Milinko Stojicic, a journalist. It was a live programme.

Page 17998

1 People phoned in and made their comments. Now, I can't tell you exactly

2 the day when it was on, but you can find it in the diary. There was a

3 threat of the NATO to bomb part of the -- of Republika Srpska because of

4 all that was happening there, and the programme was organised in relation

5 to that. So listeners began to call in and, for instance, I remember a

6 man and his name I noted down because he introduced himself quite openly,

7 and then -- he was from Sanski Most, and he said, "Just let them try. In

8 Sanski Most, we have 5.000 Muslims there. If they throw their bombs, we

9 know what we will do with our Muslims and you can do with yours whatever

10 you think you should do with them." The host, the anchor never tried to

11 bring the tension down, to placate these people and the programme just

12 went on. The next day, I learned that it was exactly at the time when

13 this programme was aired a zolja had been fired at the mosque in Potok,

14 and at the time when this programme was on air, on Rudarska Street, Nermin

15 Djumisic, now I can't swear to his name, but again I have his name there,

16 and I think his -- was stabbed with knives in his home and an open Koran

17 was put over his head. So this is one of the examples.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour there is a translation error that's

20 important. Page 28, line 9, the answer reads, "Well, a bad influence, not

21 just on the citizens." I'm told that what he said was: "Not that much on

22 the citizens, on the urban part." In other words, instead of "not just,"

23 it should say, "not that much."

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, did you hear what Mr. Ackerman said?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did.

Page 17999

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree with what he said?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. I said, and I think you

3 quoted me correctly, that it didn't have all that much influence on town

4 dwellers, on townsmen, as on rural part of the population, on rural

5 dwellers and later on it escalated.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Korner?

7 MS. KORNER:

8 Q. All right. Could you now, please, have your diary for July,

9 please? The 15th. 15th of July I want you to look at first, please.

10 A. I must say I can't really find my way about this, can somebody

11 help me. Oh, thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, when we, according to you, should not be

14 transmitting, please let me know.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because otherwise, I would not be in a position

17 myself to know.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. On the 15th of July, did you -- sorry -- did you have a

20 conversation with the then-editor of Glas?

21 A. I did, yes, yes, I did.

22 Q. [Microphone not activated]

23 A. No, Miro Mladjenovic.

24 Q. I'm sorry, was he the editor of Glas at the time?

25 A. He was, yes.

Page 18000

1 Q. And at that stage, and Their Honours will be familiar with it,

2 there was a massive row, I think, going on between the Glas and the Crisis

3 Staff in Banja Luka or the War Presidency as it then became known. Is

4 that correct? Is that right, sir?

5 A. It is, sorry.

6 Q. That's all right. Now, look, here you speak to him and you tell

7 him that you would like to encourage him in his fight against the powerful

8 triumvirate whom he, to a large extent, helped in becoming almost

9 untouchable in this area. Can you just tell us who you meant by the

10 powerful triumvirate?

11 A. Why, those were Brdjanin, Kupresanin, Vukic. A triumvirate?

12 Well, actually it was a quartet because there was the Mayor Radic there

13 too. They were people who destroyed our town.

14 Q. You later described them in your diary as the four horsemen of the

15 apocalypse. What did you mean by that?

16 A. For centuries, Banja Luka promoted coexistence. It was a

17 multi-religious, multi-cultural, multi-ethnic centre. After the

18 earthquake in Banja Luka in 1969, because of the damage done to the

19 Catholic church, the Serb Orthodox Church invited the Catholics, that is

20 Croats, to have their religious services in its church, because there

21 indeed was cohabitation there, and when those four emerged, and after they

22 took over the power, flying on the wings of the Serb defence forces, life

23 became unbearable, chaos set in, and after all, ladies and gentlemen, you

24 all know what Banja Luka turned into at the time, the biggest

25 concentration camp in the world. And another thing, if I may add, I know

Page 18001

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 18002

1 from my own experience, that over 300 young men of Muslim and Croat

2 ethnicity, who fortunately had left Banja Luka with the IDs of their Serb

3 friends, that is those boys gave them their ID cards and we put in

4 photographs and forged stamps to enable them to get out through the

5 corridor.

6 Q. All right. If you go to the next page, please, of -- it's the

7 next page in our translation. And can we not have this go out, please?

8 Because that does give some names. I don't know, is it going out or not?

9 All right. 48328. And you will see there that you spoke with some of the

10 detainees who were brought from Manjaca?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. We see references to the camps throughout your diary. Was the

13 existence of these camps known to the people in Banja Luka?

14 A. Sure, of course, of course they knew about it. We knew about

15 those camps. People talked about it. You can't hide anything.

16 Q. In your experience of life in Banja Luka in this period, is it

17 conceivable that those in authority, any one of the four horsemen did not

18 know of the existence of the camps in Omarska and Keraterm and Manjaca and

19 the like?

20 A. Out of the question, out of the question, absolutely. They all

21 knew about them and after all, they visited that camp, for instance

22 Mr. Brdjanin went to Omarska, I believe.

23 Q. And how did you hear that?

24 A. I think I had it recorded. I think I have an audio tape, which I

25 managed to obtain. And it contains a statement of a lady who testified,

Page 18003

1 but was a detainee and --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: The audiotape was not furnished to the Defence. In

4 addition, my understanding is that the Prosecution don't even know the

5 name of this person who allegedly made such a statement on tape. It

6 doesn't -- this doesn't appear anywhere in the diary of this witness, and

7 I therefore object to the whole matter being brought up at this point.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner?

9 MS. KORNER: It's an audiotape with an unnamed -- there is a first

10 name given, an unnamed woman talking about her experiences in Omarska.

11 That's what he's referring to.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But has it been disclosed to --

13 MS. KORNER: No, because we don't rely on it and it doesn't take

14 this case any further. But he's giving his reason as opposed to whether

15 it's true or not, for why he believes Mr. Brdjanin went to Omarska.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We can leave it at that, anyway. I don't think

17 there should be any further questions on this matter.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. Now --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment. You didn't bring this --

21 MS. KORNER: It's here.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But you are not going to make use of it? Right.

23 Okay, let's proceed.

24 MS. KORNER:

25 Q. Now, you describe here the man who explained how he'd come to

Page 18004

1 Sanski -- to Manjaca and the conditions that were in that camp. Were the

2 conditions, and let's just concentrate on Manjaca for a moment, known to

3 people in Banja Luka generally? If we move to the next page, 329? And

4 that can go out.

5 A. Yes. Yes. People knew that. You know how it is. For instance,

6 specifically, I was told about the conditions in the Manjaca camp by a man

7 who was a guard there. He told me about the things that went on there and

8 how terrible they were and so on and so forth. I can give you his name.

9 He's called Momir Dragic. Of course people knew what went on there. I

10 had a friend who was arrested, he was a Catholic, so they took him in on

11 Christmas so that he would spend Christmas there, and he even drew what

12 that camp, Manjaca, looked like, and wrote a few words about it.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

14 microphone?

15 MS. KORNER:

16 Q. Now, I want to move, please, to the 1st of August, please. This

17 is another topic I just want to touch on through your diary. You say

18 there on the 31st of July: "Today, six busloads of people wishing to

19 leave Banja Luka set out for Croatia in the reorganisation of the

20 resettlement --" I'm sorry, "in the organisation of the resettlement

21 agency and the Red Cross."

22 Now, during this period in 1992, was this an unusual number of

23 buses to be leaving or was it a regular occurrence?

24 A. That was already in August, 1992. In August, 1992, it was already

25 happening. Well, I won't say a regular occurrence, but I'd say it was

Page 18005

1 quite a frequent occurrence. Perka Bandic in Mejdan and many others

2 organised the transport. These six buses -- well, that was perhaps a

3 major thing that day, but every day there would be two or three leaving.

4 This was perhaps the first sizeable transport and perhaps that is why I

5 put it in.

6 Q. You've mentioned Perka Bandic. What was her role in all of this?

7 A. She headed this intermediary agency for the resettlement of

8 persons. You had to go through her, through her and some other agencies

9 which I didn't mention here. Perhaps I don't even know them all.

10 Q. Sir, you talked about -- there were every day two or three buses

11 leaving. Would you agree with a suggestion that there was something like

12 one a week at most?

13 A. More than that, more than that. Many more. Once a week? No. We

14 saw them day in, day out. (Redacted)

15 (Redacted) I saw huge crowds next to the workers'

16 centre where that was happening. There would always be a throng of

17 people, a multitude of people waiting there, queueing to get out.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'd like, please, line 7.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Redacted?

20 MS. KORNER: And line eight redacted.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Madam Registrar, line 7 and the first

22 part of line 8. In other words, the beginning of the sentence in line 7

23 and where you have a comma before the words, "And whenever." Those need

24 to be deleted, or redacted.

25 MS. KORNER:

Page 18006

1 Q. And what was making all these people leave Banja Luka?

2 A. It's simple. They simply could not survive there any longer

3 because they had been sacked from their jobs because they had not

4 responded to the call-up. They simply refused to kill, and so they were

5 fired. They were given notice in their companies. People had nothing to

6 eat, whilst they still had some they sold whatever they had at home, but

7 after that, they shall -- there was simply no way to eke out a living any

8 way. So those people could not survive there. There simply were no means

9 of livelihood or of existence in the town for them any longer,

10 unfortunately.

11 Q. All right. Could we move now to another aspect of life in Banja

12 Luka? Tuesday, the 4th of August, please. Now, on that page, sir, you

13 describe how you were in front of the Mejdan police station and you saw

14 the red van with registration plates and you give those, as well as the

15 group of seasoned hunters, you say, in camouflage uniform armed to the

16 teeth. These rascals drive around in the wretched van and never bother

17 shutting the door whenever they spot a large concentration of people and

18 they search, you go on to say they search people and so on and so forth.

19 Did you -- you saw the red van there. Did you yourself know about

20 this particular red van before?

21 A. Of course I did, of course. I had really focused on

22 investigating, of finding out who was it in that van. And in time, I

23 learned the names of all of them. It was, I think, one of the most

24 horrendous things that went on in Banja Luka. At night, they would circle

25 around the town or perhaps of evening, of late afternoon, they would round

Page 18007

1 up a group of people and put them in the van, and in the middle of the van

2 there was a noose and they would put the noose around the person's neck

3 and the person -- and then they would drive, while the man had to crouch

4 on the floor, and whenever the driver would turn a corner or something,

5 that person of course would start falling down and the noose would tighten

6 around that person's neck. I mean, it was a -- heaven forbid. At a

7 funeral, if I may add, of a woman, they turned up in the middle of the

8 burial ceremony and they went to the sheet, to the cover in which the --

9 the shroud in which a Muslim is wrapped, and when people started to weep,

10 they began to beat them, and that was the role of the red van, and this is

11 another answer to a question about why people were leaving Banja Luka.

12 Q. I'd like you then to move in your diary to the 5th of August, and

13 you recorded there the length of time that you had been writing this

14 diary.

15 A. I can't really find it. It's a long time since I --

16 Q. Yes. It's about two pages after the beginning of the entry for

17 that day. It's a paragraph that begins: "It has been 218 days since I

18 started following developments in this misfortunate city."

19 A. Just -- just a moment, please. Be patient with me. I've reached

20 the 14th.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he was directed to the 15th of August

22 by the translation rather than the 5th. That's why he's confused. If he

23 goes to the 5th of August, he'll find it.

24 MS. KORNER: Can you -- usher, it's marked, if you could turn it

25 up the 5th of August, please?

Page 18008

1 A. The 5th?

2 Q. 5.

3 A. My apologies. I understood you were talking about the 15th. I've

4 found it.

5 Q. All right. All I want to ask you about that is everybody can read

6 what you said. Are those the reasons that you felt at the time that it

7 was necessary to record, and which you still feel today?

8 A. Yes. Of course these are the reasons. Quite simply I could see

9 what was happening and I felt the impulse to write it down so that it can

10 stay behind, so that it can be remembered, so that it is not forgotten.

11 Q. All right. Just two other aspects, please, then. Could you move

12 now -- just forgive me one moment -- to the 11th of August?

13 A. I've found it.

14 Q. You refer there to: "In Celinac Muslims are allowed to move

15 around for not more than four hours a day and people in mixed marriages

16 are also in disfavour. A Serbian woman married to a Muslim will be

17 fired." And then you deal with Brdjanin.

18 How did you hear about these laws that prevented various Muslims

19 from moving around Celinac?

20 A. Well, some people from Banja Luka worked there. For instance, I

21 had friends who worked there. For instance, a nurse whom I knew worked

22 there. And in the diary you can find her name, and you know it. I'd

23 rather not mention her because she has stayed behind. She was, for

24 instance, one of those who told me about these things. And besides, it

25 was no secret. Come, Mr. Brdjanin never tried to conceal his feelings.

Page 18009

1 He was always quite open-minded. He was the happiest when he appeared on

2 the radio, and when he could talk. True, he always mentioned honest

3 Muslims and honest Croats, and those were those who found excuses even for

4 things such as, say, the red van. They were honest. And if somebody said

5 that this was madness, that this was not all right, well that person was

6 not honest and that person had to go.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to break here.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I believe I still have ten minutes left

9 of the hour Your Honour allotted me.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But we need to break here and we will continue after

11 the break. Can we shorten the break to 20 minutes, Mr. Ackerman?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's okay with me, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That would give Ms. Korner an extra ten

14 minutes. You will have 20 minutes in all.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. Now, sir, throughout your diary, as we've all seen, you record

20 explosions, shooting, and give accounts of people who to your knowledge

21 were beaten. I want to ask you about one occasion when you actually saw

22 the results of one of these beatings by the authorities. Could you could

23 have your diary, please, for the 27th of August, 1992? And I'd prefer --

24 yes, thank you, no, this should not go out, please.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner. Technicians, please take

Page 18010

1 note of that. Madam Registrar, check that, because I don't know how to

2 check it. All right. Okay. What I mean to say is I don't have the means

3 to check it.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. On the 27th of August, did you actually not only take a statement

6 from someone who was beaten up by the police but also photographs of his

7 injuries?

8 A. Yes. I did. Except that I'd like to make a slight correction,

9 I'm sorry, this is not the only person that I'd seen who had been beaten

10 up. There were many people who had been beaten up but I was in a

11 situation to bring a doctor to him. The person was spitting blood and I

12 had to somehow look after him. I brought a friend who was a doctor, and

13 who came to examine him, and to administer some help, and I also got

14 another friend of mine who was a journalist, a colleague of mine, in fact

15 he's a photojournalist, he worked for many newspapers and he photographed

16 him and these are the photographs that I attached to my diary.

17 Q. I'd like you to have a look, please, and identify the photographs

18 that you took -- or that were taken in your presence. And I think they

19 can go on to the ELMO.

20 A. Yes. These are the photographs.

21 Q. I think there are some other ones. If you turn over --

22 A. There are more, there are more photographs.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... other side, please, usher.

24 A. Yes, these are the photographs, yes.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that please be made Exhibit 2325?

Page 18011

1 Your Honours, I think in fact what we better do is produce colour

2 photocopies and makes those the exhibits because this has to go back to

3 the evidence unit, the originals.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that agreeable with you, Mr. Ackerman?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

7 MS. KORNER:

8 Q. Thank you, sir.

9 I now want to move, please, in your diary to the 29th of August,

10 please. The first page is 4418 and then 4419. I think there you were

11 recording or recording in your diary a discussion with Dr. Milan Subotic

12 and as you describe on the previous page the unavoidable Brdjanin, and you

13 record there that Brdjanin stated in respect -- this is after the camps

14 obviously had been discovered -- sorry, can we get 54419 up? Thank you.

15 A bit further up. Thank you.

16 Brdjanin saying: "When I first came to Banja Luka as a child, I

17 really thought that this was a Muslim city, as all the leading positions

18 were occupied by Muslims. If Hitler, Stalin and Churchill could have

19 working camps, why could not we? We are in a war, after all."

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, I can't find where we are.

21 MS. KORNER: Look at the screen, you'll see it up there.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: But I can't find it in --

23 MS. KORNER: It's L0054419 is the translation.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, it's 28 August, I'm sorry.

25 MS. KORNER:

Page 18012

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 18013

1 Q. Throughout your diary you record a lot of Brdjanin's sayings. How

2 did that strike you at the time?

3 A. Well, that was a habitual way in which this was done. It's

4 nothing special, really. I mean the way that Brdjanin addressed himself

5 to the wide audience through the mass media, to be honest, one thing that

6 has to be said for him is that he was the bravest one because for the most

7 part his statements and I think all of them, all of the announcements

8 he -- he was sober when he said that, while Vukic, for instance, when he

9 made his public announcements, he was mostly drunk, and they provoked

10 panic among the people. But for -- as for Brdjanin, he thought he was a

11 God's gift to the masses. He decided on life and death. He thought that

12 was his right. I'm not saying here that he really wanted bad things to

13 happen to Croats and Muslims. I don't want to say that. But the way he

14 addressed himself, the way he spoke, in his public announcements, in the

15 mass media, the way he spoke, he caused panic among the people. That is

16 what he did. That's a fact. And this case in question is nothing

17 special.

18 Q. Thank you, sir. All right. Can we move into September, please?

19 First of all, the 2nd of September. And if we just move up the page

20 there, we'll see -- don't worry, sir, you needn't turn it up because you

21 were recording, as you stated, yet more people leaving Banja Luka. And

22 you end up by saying: "Only the most persistent, like me, are staying and

23 those who cannot afford the journey."

24 Now, can we look, please, at your recording of an eyewitness

25 apparently to a massacre? First of all, on the 4th of September, at --

Page 18014

1 this is 54916. You -- yes, you record the radio reporting that soldiers

2 had killed about 250 Muslims, somewhere around Travnik, while the

3 Trnopolje camp that was being relocated, and you'd heard that also, as it

4 were, second or thirdhand, as we can see. But then if we move, please, to

5 the 7th of September --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I think you there had a conversation with a Lieutenant Peulic, son

8 of the commander of the same name, Bosko Peulic, I think it is, who

9 described to you --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- the massacre as it's come to be called that took place on Mount

12 Vlasic. And if we move, please, to the next page --

13 A. May I just say something very briefly? This was a recording, a

14 friend of mine in the cafe bar called Formula recorded the drunken Davor

15 Peulic who was speaking about this. And later on I met a Serb soldier who

16 in fact even introduced me into the hospital where I saw a great deal of

17 time [as interpreted], and this soldier was -- had been there and had seen

18 all of those corpses at the location, and he had told me that this had

19 been carried out by the Prijedor police, not the army. That was his

20 opinion. That's what he told me, I'm sorry.

21 Q. Could you move now to the 17th of September? I want it look at

22 something that was said by one of the top Serbian leaders, Bosnian Serb

23 leaders. I think you were recording, if we look at 47328, a programme

24 called Open Screen, and the subject was genocide. The guests were Velibor

25 Ostojic, Mr. Petrovic, Davidovic and Deretic. Could you find the part

Page 18015

1 where you're recording what Mr. Ostojic had to say after there had been a

2 discussion of the Vatican by Mr. Petrovic? And then --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- Ostojic said this: "To my mind, the Muslims are not an ethnic

5 group but yet another socialist realist creation." And if we go on over

6 the page, although it's not quite the point, he said, "There were no

7 prisons, let alone concentration camps, there was only a prison in

8 Manjaca. All the others were collection centres." Now, throughout this

9 period, you record the visit of the top leadership, the Bosnian Serb

10 leadership, as well as internationals. Did you get the -- from hearing

11 what they said on radio programmes, that there was any difference in the

12 attitude taken to non-Serbs by the Banja Luka leadership, Brdjanin and the

13 like, and those at the top?

14 A. Well, in the essence, no. For instance, Biljana Plavsic was one

15 of the most extremist ones, if I may say so. As far as Karadzic is

16 concerned, we all know what he was like. But they perhaps sometimes spoke

17 in some softened terms and Mr. Brdjanin said, "we Krajina people," we

18 know, and I'm speaking that I believe is supported by the majority of the

19 Serb people. Our ones, so to speak, the local ones, Brdjanin, Vukic,

20 Kupresanin and Radic, for instance, although Radic not to such an extent,

21 they went one step ahead. That was a fact. Even occasionally Karadzic,

22 the way he was, seemed to be a lamb, a dove, compared to our ones,

23 compared to our leaders, our party leaders. I don't know what to call

24 them.

25 Q. Thank you. Sir, I'm sorry, I've reached the end of my allotted

Page 18016

1 time limits so I can't ask you any further questions but thank you very

2 much, sir?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You're now going to be cross-examined by

6 Mr. Ackerman. You are an educated person so I will restrict myself to

7 what is essentially necessary. Mr. Ackerman here is doing his duty and he

8 has an obligation to look after the rights of his client to the best of

9 his ability. He's also got a right on behalf of his client to

10 cross-examine you which means that you have an obligation to answer all

11 the questions that are put to you in accordance with the oath that you

12 took at the beginning of your testimony. You have no right to, in other

13 words, make a distinction between questions coming from the Prosecution

14 and questions coming from the Defence.

15 Mr. Ackerman, he is all yours.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

18 Q. Good morning, sir.

19 A. Good morning to you.

20 Q. I have, what seems like I have, spent a significant part of my

21 life reading your diary. It is quite a long piece of work, as you know.

22 Correct?

23 A. I'm so sorry if I have tired you out.

24 Q. What gave you the idea in the first place to create this diary?

25 What was the impetus that made you want to do this?

Page 18017

1 A. You know, I think I did say a few words about this but I will

2 repeat. We lived in a town where, for instance, nobody knew, I think half

3 of my friends did not know what my ethnicity was, and I didn't know what

4 their ethnicity was. It was not an important factor. We lived a normal

5 life, and then some horrible things started to happen. Because of the --

6 in the -- on behalf of a nation, ethnicity, people lost their jobs, lost

7 their flats, were expelled from their apartments, were beaten up. When I

8 saw that, when I saw all that, where all this was leading to, I wanted to

9 record it, for a trace to remain from all that. That was what made me do

10 this. And apart from that, if I hadn't done that, I would have gone mad.

11 In this way, I was releasing some tension.

12 Q. Actually, you -- from what we have before us here, you started

13 this process in January of 1992, well before a lot of these things you

14 just described had happened; correct?

15 A. Yes. That's correct. But --

16 Q. Did you actually work on this diary every day? I mean was it

17 something you did every day?

18 A. Yes. That's right. Occasionally, I would even write for six

19 hours.

20 Q. Is it the case, then, that you didn't have any employment, that

21 were you simply free to spend as much time as you wanted to or needed to

22 to work on this diary?

23 A. Well, yes. That's what it meant, (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 18018

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we should be in private session.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You're right, Ms. Korner. I was about to say that.

9 Let's go into private session.

10 MS. KORNER: This should be redacted and I'd ask Mr. Ackerman to

11 be more careful please.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I'm sorry. I'll be more careful. I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 [Private session]

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 18019

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12 Pages 18019 to 18032 redacted private session.

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Page 18033

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: So I was prepared to ask the next question on what

13 I believe to be a 24 February 1992 section of the diary and I was sitting

14 here looking through the 24 February 1992 section of the diary and the

15 translation I have is from some other date obviously because the material

16 contained in there is not in the 24 February 1992 version of the diary.

17 The page I'm looking at is L0065790. And I think the Prosecutor has a

18 guide that would maybe tell us what the ERN number of the B/C/S version is

19 which is probably not the same date I thought it was. I sure hope we

20 don't have these continuing problems as we go through this, Your Honour.

21 We may not but this first one is certainly plagued with difficulty. I

22 think Ms. Gustin is now looking to see what L0065790 might be.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, on the document that I gave Mr. Ackerman

24 last Friday and on the document Your Honour has it clearly shows what date

25 the B/C/S is and what date the translation is. So if there are going to

Page 18034

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13 English transcripts.

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21

22

23

24

25

Page 18035

1 be problems, perhaps Mr. Cunningham could take that document and check it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: To the L.

3 MS. KORNER: The L number is the translation.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the translation.

5 MS. KORNER: Exactly. Un L number, as it was, the B/C/S.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to make that clear.

7 MS. KORNER: And I think I ought to point out also as well, Your

8 Honour, should something arise, all of these are draft translations,

9 nearly. Nothing was sent back.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: They are marked as such in yellow.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. And I notice there are errors in dates and

12 sometimes spellings and names.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I have no idea what this page is, Your

15 Honour, in B/C/S and that's where we are.

16 MS. KORNER: Can we move on and we'll find your page for you.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: We are going to do that. I'm going to go to the

18 next document.

19 MS. KORNER: It is actually the 25th of February and that's in the

20 binder. It's a sentence continuing from the previous.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, it's in here as the 24th.

22 MS. KORNER: It's the 25th of February. It's not -- it's the

23 25th. 0065790 -- zero. The witness has that already in his binder

24 because I picked on that one.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Could that be handed to him then?

Page 18036

1 MS. KORNER: For Your Honours we can put it up on the screen.

2 MR. ACKERMAN:

3 Q. Sir, we have taken a long time to get to what is a fairly simple

4 question. You're talking about a session that was held in Banja Luka

5 where some decisions were passed, and I think it was a session of the

6 Autonomous Region of Krajina and you mention in your diary the following:

7 "At this session a decision was also passed to have the special committee

8 comprising Predrag Radic, Nikola Erceg and Vojo Kupresanin to travel to

9 Belgrade to arrange with the representatives of the government of Serbia

10 the delivery of food and fuel for the territory of Bosnian Krajina." Let

11 me know if you find that language.

12 A. To be honest, I can't see that here. I'm looking at the 25th of

13 February, am I?

14 Q. Yes. That's what I'm told. The names just above it are Rajko

15 Vasic, Aleksandar Sukalo?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Now, Ms. Korner, can we remain in open

17 session?

18 MS. KORNER: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN:

21 Q. And then the paragraph right after it talks about --

22 A. Yes, I've found, I've found this bit, yes.

23 Q. And so that's the first part I want to bring to your attention.

24 Then I want to go down, just skip one paragraph that mentions Dr. Vukic

25 and you're talking about a magazine, discussing the Assembly of the

Page 18037

1 Serbian Radical Party held on 22 February. Do you find that?

2 A. Yes, I have found it, yes.

3 Q. And it names the chairman of that party as a person Nikodin Cavic?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. And this indicates that he says that, "He proceeded to enumerate

6 all units that had been formed so far, and then asked his followers not to

7 shoot around the town, that is dangerous."

8 Do you have any idea what units he's talking about? Would that

9 have been SOS or what units is he talking about that he -- that the

10 Serbian radical party has that he's telling not to shoot around town?

11 What would those be?

12 A. I understood your question. Let me explain. Banja Luka was full

13 of armed groups. For instance, criminal groups that until SOS appeared

14 had been pick-pockets, criminals, thugs. They were recruited by the SDS

15 if they had the right ethnicity and very frequently even if not, and they

16 were armed. They were given weapons. They walked around the town quite

17 normally walking with automatic rifles, carrying Scorpion pistols, and

18 this was probably referring, most probably referring to those paramilitary

19 groups. They were naturally under their control.

20 Q. All right. Now, if you turn -- if you turn -- well, actually,

21 it's -- I think it's this document here now. I think if you go back to

22 the beginning of the document you have in front of you, somewhere in there

23 you talk about Brdjanin appearing at a press conference. It's right after

24 you talked -- the paragraph says, "While the president of the SDS was

25 boozing -" I think referring to Vukic, "the president of the autonomous

Page 18038

1 region was meditating and here is what Mr. Brdjanin said at a press

2 conference in AR Krajina".

3 A. That's in the same.

4 Q. Yeah. It should be on the same day.

5 A. Same day.

6 Q. Yes. Maybe close to the end. I'm not sure about that. Because

7 part of it was not translated.

8 MS. KORNER: There is no 22nd of February.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: 25th, same day we have just been referring to, just

10 a different part.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't find it.

12 MR. ACKERMAN:

13 Q. Well, sir, I'm going to read the translation, bring that to the

14 attention of the court and ask you --

15 A. Yes, please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Ackerman. I think that's easier.

17 MR. ACKERMAN:

18 Q. Here is what Mr. Brdjanin said at today's press conference in AR

19 Krajina, the most reasonable form of organisation for the Serbian people

20 in BH would be to establish two cantons, a Krajina one to be later joined

21 by Posavina and Semberija and an east Herzegovinian one encompassing

22 Romanija and Bihac. The capital town would be Banja Luka instead of

23 Sarajevo as insisted by the Serbian assembly of BH.

24 Now, do you recall Mr. Brdjanin saying that?

25 A. Yes, yes, I do.

Page 18039

1 Q. And I think you'll also recall that that was kind of the beginning

2 of what turned into a fairly serious dispute between Karadzic and the

3 people in Sarajevo, Pale, and the people in Banja Luka, about where the

4 seat of the government --

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now I want to go to 27 February of 1992. And I think -- I think

9 you also have that. And that's the document that Ms. Korner referred to

10 where you talked about the tomb of Ferhat Pasa Sokolovic?

11 A. Yes. Please go on.

12 Q. Quite a ways into that there is an interview going on and Brdjanin

13 is being asked a significant number of questions and giving his answers.

14 If you go quite a ways in, he's asked, and it's page 4285 in the English

15 translation, beginning on 4284, is the question. What would be your

16 message to the Serbian population of Krajina ahead of the referendum? And

17 then Brdjanin gives this answer: First says he'll be very brief and then

18 asks Professor Lazarevic to say something and then he says: "We shall not

19 hinder the plebiscite to be carried out by Muslims and Croats. I

20 intentionally call it the plebiscite because we will then be on equal

21 footing." Then he says later on in that paragraph, "I think we have

22 nothing to do with this referendum. We had our say and voted to remain in

23 Yugoslavia. We shall not obstruct it as they allege."

24 Have you found that?

25 A. I haven't found it but I recall this very well.

Page 18040

1 Q. It's very close to the end of your entries on that day. I'm sure

2 it's like right the last page or so. And then Lazarevic follows Brdjanin

3 with, "You see I'm a democrat by nature. I believe that every nation has

4 the right to voice their opinion. But on condition it is called a

5 plebiscite and financed by that people's political party and not at my

6 expense." And you say you remember that. The contention --

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. The contention there is that the Serbs had a plebiscite which they

9 paid for and that their contention is that the --

10 A. With what? With whose money?

11 Q. Well, I assume with money from the SDS. That's what it seems to

12 be saying and what they seem to be saying is that they don't mind the

13 Muslims and the Croats having a plebiscite of their own regarding

14 independence, they just don't think that everybody should pay for it, that

15 they should pay for it like they paid for the plebiscite that they held.

16 That's what they are saying, isn't it?

17 A. That's what they were saying but that's not how it was. Let me

18 explain something. The money used to have the plebiscite is -- was most

19 certainly from a joint pot of money but once they had the plebiscite, then

20 they said "Okay, this is the right, they should have their own

21 plebiscite," except that every single Serb that went to vote in the

22 plebiscite for independent Bosnia was a traitor to the Serbian nation and

23 that's when they said, "Well, we won't give the money," and even what was

24 questioned was how this plebiscite will be carried out, where would it

25 happen and when it did happen it was well known where there was voting

Page 18041

1 that's where the plebiscite was taking place but when we are speaking

2 about the referendum, then they said this electoral location was close,

3 this one wasn't suitable and so on. So these were games that were played.

4 This was a game of democracy. It was playing at democracy. And that's

5 then what resulted in all that happened later. Of course I recall this

6 extremely well. Everybody had a right to everything. We were all equal

7 but it went all very slowly.

8 Q. The fact is that on the 29th of February in the municipality of

9 Banja Luka, there were 65 voting locations where people could go and vote

10 for the referendum, weren't there?

11 A. See, if I had written this down, that's how it was, but you must

12 understand the psychosis that was rife in town at the time.

13 Q. You must answer my question. The fact is on the 29th of February

14 in Banja Luka, there were 65 voting locations where people could go and

15 vote for the referendum, weren't there?

16 A. Mr. Ackerman, I confirmed what you said. If I had written it

17 down, that's how it was. But I have to say that you have to understand

18 the atmosphere. Many people were fearing about going out.

19 Q. Sir --

20 A. I apologise.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... there were 65 locations. If

22 you will answer the questions I ask you, then we will be finished sooner.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell the Chamber who Mr. Lazarevic was at the time this interview

25 that we are talking about was taking place?

Page 18042

1 A. Professor Lazarevic was a teacher at Banja Luka grammar school, at

2 the time I think he was a kind of president of Serbian intellectuals in

3 Banja Luka.

4 Q. All right. I'm going to go now to 1 March of 1992. Now, sir, if

5 you look at your diary entry for 1 March, 1992, you're describing a press

6 conference from the day before. That took place apparently in Banja Luka.

7 And Radovan Karadzic was present, he spoke. Vojo Kupresanin was present

8 and he spoke.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you mention that on that day, when there was a meeting of the

11 Assembly of the Autonomous Region, with Karadzic present, with Kupresanin

12 present, with a press conference, that Radoslav Brdjanin wasn't present,

13 wasn't there at all; correct?

14 A. Yes. If that's what I wrote down, then it is correct.

15 Q. You refer to Mr. Brdjanin on that page as the president of the

16 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. That's not correct, is it?

17 Vojo Kupresanin was the president of the assembly, wasn't he?

18 A. I am not mentioning him here as a president but as a

19 vice-president. If you have the data that you have just told me, then you

20 have it wrongly translated. It says here vice-president of the Assembly

21 of the Autonomous Region.

22 Q. That's fine. I concede that it was wrongly translated, obviously.

23 If you go a little further along in the same day --

24 A. Yes?

25 Q. I'm looking for a reference, and again this is in an appropriate

Page 18043

1 name to mention, Your Honour so I'm -- well, maybe it's not?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Tell me whether it's yes or no in which case we go

3 to private session.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Let's go to private session.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go to private session for a while, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MR. ACKERMAN:

20 Q. I don't know if you have found his name but you have a very brief

21 reference there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The coordinator, Mr. Jovan Cizmovic made reference to -- and

24 that's obviously a bad translation, I think, a octoriad [phoen]

25 constitution?

Page 18044

1 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

2 MR. ACKERMAN: What?

3 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Octoroid [phoen], eight.

4 MR. ACKERMAN:

5 Q. Octoroid constitution --

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... while in fact the only

8 imposed constitution was the one adopted in Sarajevo. You've found that.

9 You referred to him as the coordinator?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What, to your knowledge, was he the coordinator of, coordinator

12 for what?

13 A. To be honest, it's probably the part which I took from one of the

14 programmes on Banja Luka Radio, and as they named it or him, that's how I

15 wrote it down. At this moment, I can't recall who Jovan Cizmovic is. I

16 think he is a lawyer. I'm not certain really.

17 Q. Would it help your memory any if I suggested to you that he was

18 Karadzic's man in Banja Luka who was informing Karadzic about what was

19 going on there?

20 A. They were all Karadzic's men, all of them. You mean that your

21 defendant was my man?

22 Q. Well, you know that there were some major disputes that went on

23 between Brdjanin and Karadzic, don't you?

24 A. That's right. I know that.

25 Q. On the 6th of March, you referred to Cizmovic again. "The SDS

Page 18045

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Page 18046

1 municipal board, political and economic council. And the coordination

2 board of the party banned the attorney at law Jovan Cizmovic, a SPO

3 member, from representing the party anywhere because he had inflicted

4 damage on the Banja Luka SDS by falsely informing the SDS central office

5 on the situation in the party in Banja Luka."

6 Do you remember writing that? You're not going to find it there.

7 It's on a different day. It's on 6 March.

8 A. Yes. I remember, I recall it now, I think, yes. I was away but

9 you must tell me about it because I've forgotten quite a lot of things and

10 I can't really talk about what I'm not sure about but I do recall writing

11 that. I do.

12 Q. I understand that you don't remember a lot of these things and you

13 shouldn't. I mean this diary is huge and nobody could remember everything

14 that's in it so I understand that. Don't worry about that. If I suggest

15 to you at any point that there is something in your diary and you're not

16 certain about that, then I would be happy to show you your diary?

17 A. I believe you. I believe you.

18 Q. But I think we can go a little bit faster if you let me suggest

19 something is in your diary and if you want to quarrel about it, we can

20 look at the B/C/S version?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. This would be an okay time, judge.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we limit the break to 20 minutes?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I got yelled at by the translators the

25 last time, that they have a contract for 25 minutes and I shouldn't agree.

Page 18047

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. 25 minutes.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, we were talking about Mr. Jovan Cizmovic and whatever role it

7 was he was playing in early 1992. You mentioned him one more time during

8 that period of time and that was on 5 April of 1992. There is a press

9 conference, in fact I think it's a radio show, and Brdjanin is being asked

10 questions and giving answers. It was a press conference actually on that

11 date. Brdjanin says this, and you may remember this: "A person from

12 Banja Luka without a base of his own was still relaying misinformation.

13 We were specifically talking about Mr. Cizmovic who thought he was a

14 godsend in Banja Luka entitled to decide whether this was a struggle for

15 political power, or a means of protecting Serbian people." Do you recall

16 Mr. Brdjanin saying that?

17 MS. KORNER: Can we have the page, please?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes it's L0034677, 5 April of 1992.

19 Q. Do you recall that?

20 A. Well, I can't say, not that conversation exactly, but here I have

21 it in front of me, and I believe you when you say that he said that, and

22 if I noted it down, then it must be so because I was taking it off a tape.

23 Q. All right. Thank you.

24 I now want to go back to 1 March 1992, and the English is

25 L0054414. I think you have 1 March there in front of you, don't you?

Page 18048

1 A. I do, yes.

2 Q. You talk about a report from the evening news of Television

3 Sarajevo 1 and you say this: "We heard a devastating report that simply

4 shocked all those anxious about the welfare of BH. A terrible incident

5 happened in Sarajevo today that might have far-reaching consequences for

6 the entire republic or maybe even the entire region. A gang of rampant

7 chauvinists attacked a wedding party in front of the Serbian Orthodox

8 Church in Sarajevo. They first tried to snatch away and burn the national

9 flag and when the wedding guests offered resistance, they opened fire.

10 The bridegroom's father was deadly wounded in the shooting and a priest

11 was injured. After the crime without a precedent in this part of the

12 world, the attackers ran away but MUP is on their trail. I believe that

13 nothing worse could have happened at this moment, a shot fired at that

14 unfortunate man whose joy over his son's wedding has been so brutally

15 disrupted was also a shot straight into the heart of Bosnia."

16 Now, you were writing there your feelings about what you learned

17 had happened in Sarajevo that day, weren't you?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And when you said on that day that you believed it was a shot

20 straight into the heart of Bosnia, that was certainly the way you felt on

21 that day, wasn't it?

22 A. No doubt about it.

23 Q. I'm going now to the 3rd of March of 1992. We are at L0080628.

24 You're actually quoting from a news report, I believe it is, that contains

25 demands of the Serbian people's Crisis Staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 18049

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think that in order to put this into

2 context one should start the page before that, 80627, which is the

3 beginning of it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's start -- let's take Ms. Korner's advice

5 and start from the previous page.

6 MS. KORNER: It's at the bottom, Glas also published excerpts from

7 Karadzic's statement.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Karadzic's statement, yes.

9 MR. ACKERMAN:

10 Q. Do you have that with you, sir, over there? Do you have that

11 material?

12 A. I do, yes.

13 Q. Now, as I understand it, what's going on here is basically a

14 reaction to the events we just talked about that happened in Sarajevo the

15 day before?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the language Karadzic begins with having warned people about

18 what would happen if they insist on an independent BH and then later

19 says, "Until yesterday," next page, "the Serbian people unconditionally

20 believed in the traditional values of coexistence in BH. With this belief

21 we thought we should endorse the conference on BH. Indeed we initiated

22 and supported it. Unfortunately, our expectations were betrayed

23 yesterday, states the Crisis Staff. In the context of the factual

24 situation in Sarajevo and BH, the SDS and Serbian people's Crisis Staff

25 demand the following: That all activities in the campaign for sovereign

Page 18050

1 independent and internationally recognised BH stop until a satisfactory

2 solution for all three constituent peoples can be found. A conference

3 about a democratic transformation of BH urgently needs to be continued."

4 Second paragraph: "We call for an unconditional halt of the media

5 campaign promoting sovereignty and independence for BH." And then you

6 skip down to paragraph 4: "We demand that the perpetrators of the

7 horrific crime in front of the Serbian Orthodox Church be arrested today."

8 So your prediction that those activities in Sarajevo would have

9 far-reaching consequences, you can see fairly clearly in the reaction of

10 the SDS, can't you?

11 A. Well, right, yes, yes. That's correct. But one shouldn't

12 confound my misgivings that it might escalate and become a conflict. I

13 mean, I realised the situation that the people had been put in, and as

14 Karadzic said, they were afraid of the referendum and they did not really

15 care in the least for that wretched [as interpreted] man who was killed.

16 It was just a good immediate cause to start the war. Before that in the

17 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Karadzic said, and if you know that, well,

18 if you intend to fight, you will take the Muslim people to hell, on the

19 road of no return, and that was simply a good, immediate reason to start

20 it.

21 Q. I'm now baffled. You just called -- let's see how you put it --

22 in your report about what had happened in Sarajevo that we referred to a

23 little while ago: "A shot fired at that unfortunate man whose joy over

24 his son's wedding had been so brutally disrupted was also a shot straight

25 into the heart of Bosnia." Now, you have referred to him as that wretched

Page 18051

1 man who was killed. Why do you call him a wretched man?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make sure it's not a translation error,

3 Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN:

5 Q. It's page 75, line 14?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, I heard that, yeah.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Line 13.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I understand wretched to mean

9 unfortunate. I don't know what Mr. Ackerman understands it to mean.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it has two meanings, not just unfortunate. I

11 understand it like that too, but it does have a second meaning that is --

12 it's in a disparaging way of describing a person.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no, no, heaven forbid.

14 I'm sorry, if this sounds disparaging. I was very unhappy about what

15 happened and I was ashamed of it having happened in my country. No, no,

16 no. I think that the man is unfortunate. That's what I meant.

17 MR. ACKERMAN:

18 Q. How could you draw the conclusion that if you cared about him,

19 that Mr. Karadzic or other people in the SDS didn't? How could you draw

20 that conclusion?

21 A. You have to believe me, the atmosphere that reigned in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, across it, and that includes my native Banja Luka,

23 meant that I could almost swear, I could even put my hand in the fire that

24 I felt more sorry for that man than Radovan Karadzic. To him it was just

25 a reason to embark on the implementation, on the translation of his idea

Page 18052

1 into life.

2 Q. But you have no knowledge about that. You have no knowledge as to

3 how Radovan Karadzic felt about that man being shot, do you? None

4 whatsoever.

5 A. Well, you could say I don't, but on the other hand when you have a

6 man upon Jahorina and Lovsoval [phoen] his drunken soldiers fire at

7 civilians in Sarajevo, such a man doesn't look to me like a

8 philanthropist.

9 Q. On 5 March, 1992, page L0054471 of your diary.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact wretched has -- one meaning is distressed,

11 the other miserable, dejected. The other one is despicable,

12 MS. KORNER: I would have thought, Your Honour, it was perfectly

13 clear from the context.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It was to me, too.

15 MR. ACKERMAN:

16 Q. And your diary on this day, 5 March, you quote from the diary of

17 another diarist by the name of Thomas Mann to this effect: "Those who

18 fundamentally detest evil will be banished by it from their homeland,

19 seeing the evil appreciated by a nation of lackeys. It is far better to

20 relinquish one's homeland than among childish kinsmen endure the rage of

21 masses blinded by hate." Did you quote that pass page from Thomas Mann

22 because you subscribed to it and agreed to it on 5 March, 1992? Is that

23 the way you felt?

24 A. Well, of course. I won't do something against me, something that

25 is opposite to what I feel.

Page 18053

1 Q. Did you believe on 5 March, 1992, that remaining in Banja Luka,

2 one would be subjected to the rage of masses blinded by hate?

3 A. It is difficult to put it precisely. At that time, the situation

4 was not that serious to make one think of leaving but we realised that if

5 it went on down that particular road, that there would be no life for us.

6 That much was clear.

7 Q. You just said we realised and life for us. Who is "we"?

8 A. I meant generally, Muslims, Croats and even those Serbs who

9 disagreed with the doubtful SDS policy which was getting us involved in a

10 war. I have a vast number of friends who left because they did not want

11 to fight, who didn't want to raise their hand to fire at a friend. My

12 diary, if I may say so, was kept by a person 21 members of whose family

13 were in the Serb army. That person knew what was in my diary and yet he

14 kept my diary for me because my diary was safe with that person and wasn't

15 safe with me.

16 Q. Are you saying that you stored the diary with someone? That you

17 didn't actually have it in your possession?

18 A. Why, of course, of course. In Banja Luka, say, or as early as

19 1993, we were not even allowed to listen to the radio aloud, unless it was

20 a radio station which was in line with the -- those who were in power.

21 Q. We are in -- we are still in 1992. Did you -- were you not

22 maintaining the pages of this diary? Were you giving it to someone else

23 at that time?

24 A. No, no, no. No, no. Don't try to change what I've said. I kept

25 my diary, that is, I put entries in it, I received information from

Page 18054

1 different sides, from many people, and there were dozens of Serbs amongst

2 them, but when sometime in mid-1993, when things escalated to thuggery and

3 beatings, then I entrusted it for safekeeping all wrapped and packed to

4 somebody who kept it until the departure.

5 Q. So mid-1993 was when things got really bad in Banja Luka?

6 A. Not really bad. I mean it became dangerous in 1992 already, after

7 the so-called liberation forces, Serb liberation forces, turned -- began

8 to arrive. That was April, I think.

9 Q. It wasn't dangerous enough that you felt reluctant to keep your

10 diary but by the middle of 1993, it was dangerous enough you thought you

11 ought to put it in the hands of someone else; right?

12 A. It was dangerous but it was also dangerous then, and when you meet

13 with the gentleman that you are defending ask him what would have happened

14 to me had they caught me doing what I was doing? And he will tell you

15 that openly but I am a man that I am, and I wasn't afraid. I did it -- I

16 did it as long as I could, as long as I could I kept it with me.

17 Q. 7 -- the date is 7-8 March of 1992 that I'm interested in now.

18 That page is L0080584. And I'm not sure you need to see this. If you

19 need to see it, you tell me. The entry you make is this. You are

20 referring to Glas. You say, on the last page, "There is the Federal

21 Secretariat of National Defence report about casualties in Croatia. To

22 date about 1.279 members of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

23 armed forces were killed or died from wounds in combat operations in

24 Croatia. They were under the Yugoslav national army command or in joint

25 operations with them." And then you comment about this report in Glas.

Page 18055

1 You say, "This ridiculous, galling information was released by the army

2 which had been defeated in two wars within a short time. Nobody expected

3 the army to give us exact numbers at this stage but such underestimate is

4 counterproductive." So what you're saying there is that 1.279 killed in

5 the fighting in Croatia is a large underestimate to the point that it's

6 ridiculous and galling. Yes?

7 A. I thought this to be the case.

8 Q. You thought it so strongly that you used the words "ridiculous"

9 and "galling" to describe the information, didn't you?

10 A. If you say so, and if that's what it says here, then yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us who at the time a person named Velimir Cvijic was,

12 Cvijic. Velimir Cvijic, do you know who that was?

13 A. Cvijic, I don't know. Could it be Velimir Sijetic [phoen]?

14 Q. It might be. There might be another mistranslation here. Let me

15 read you what you wrote about him and then maybe that will help you tell

16 us?

17 MS. KORNER: Page, please.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: L0081440.

19 MS. KORNER: Date.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, what my assistants tell me is that it's 9

21 through 14 March of 1992.

22 Q. You wrote this, sir, "The Serbs are the people most exposed to

23 hardship in Banja Luka, continues Velimir Cvijic, because they were

24 freezing in the largest number last winter. They are the most numerous on

25 unemployment --"

Page 18056

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Page 18057

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. "-- and the front. They sustained most casualties in the bomb

3 explosion in the centre of town and the SDS continues to claim they take

4 great care of their people." Do you remember that?

5 MS. KORNER: It's the 11th of March.

6 MR. ACKERMAN:

7 Q. Do you remember that, sir?

8 A. I remember it very well. I didn't say that. I quoted one of the

9 politicians. I think it was from a Liberal Party. I don't know which

10 party in fact. And he said that as a capital truth, that the Serbs were

11 most at risk, more threatened -- most threatened. Let me explain. Because

12 they were the majority and because there was no heating, they were the

13 most frozen. They were the ones who fired most bombs and they were the

14 ones who were most hit. So this is in this sense that this was written.

15 And they also had the real representatives who led them and brought them

16 to where they had brought them to. Unfortunately, they took them and took

17 us.

18 Q. All right. Now, I think the date that I'm going to now is 12

19 March, the page is L0081448 and it talks about a visit to Banja Luka by

20 Lieutenant General Satish Nambiar, commander of the UN peacekeeping

21 forces, and you wrote a little bit about that visit. Do you recall that?

22 A. To be honest, not very well. One would have had to remember

23 everything. A man is such a person that when horrible things happen, one

24 tries to forget but of course I can try and recall it.

25 Q. Please understand that I'm not expecting you to remember these

Page 18058

1 things. Do you understand that? I'm not testing your memory. I want to

2 try to save time?

3 A. Yes, I do know that, yes, I do.

4 Q. I want to try to save time by not showing you these unless you

5 would like to look at them to confirm.

6 A. Please do.

7 Q. All right. When you speak about -- and this is L0081448. When

8 you speak about the visit of Nambiar, you tell us that he came to Banja

9 Luka and met with General Vladimir Vukovic, 5th Corps commander, and that

10 he would also visit with Mayor Predrag Radic. There is no indication in

11 what you've written that he either would or did meet with Mr. Brdjanin.

12 Do you accept that?

13 A. Well, if I have written down that they didn't meet, then they

14 didn't meet.

15 Q. You did not write down that he did not meet with Brdjanin.

16 Brdjanin is just not one of the names you mention that he did meet with.

17 That's all. I don't want you to be misled thinking that you said he did

18 not meet with Brdjanin. You didn't.

19 A. I understood, yes. No, I understood.

20 Q. If we go, maybe about a page from there, I think you're again

21 quoting from Glas, if I'm not mistaken, and you say, under the headline

22 "660 million dinar losses, V. Dubocanin has written the following text."

23 And then the dateline is Banja Luka, 11 March, and it says this: "As many

24 as 132 out of 803 privately or publicly owned Banja Luka enterprises

25 operated a loss last year. However, it is probably not an accurate figure

Page 18059

1 because about 200 companies have not submitted annual reports for the last

2 financial year to the Banja Luka SDK," and then something "service branch.

3 Even then the losses surpass the 660 million dinar mark which is double

4 the last year's amount. If we add the losses incurred by the Banja Luka

5 health care services last year, it is clear that it will take a long time

6 to improve the local firms' liquidity. The big iron and steel industry

7 works have been hit the hardest by the disappearance of a Yugoslav market

8 and the severed financial and trade ties. These industries make up a

9 third of the overall losses for the last financial year. About 100

10 private enterprises operated at a loss last year. True their losses are

11 considerably smaller than those of the publicly-owned enterprises. If

12 that is so, many will have to close shop. Only big monopolies and those

13 with big financial capital can survive in these conditions. Such

14 enterprises are few and far between, and it's obvious that Banja Luka's

15 economy's prospects have not been good for sometime."

16 Now, it's a fact, isn't it, that at this time, March of 1992, the

17 economy of Banja Luka is going downhill fast?

18 A. It's true.

19 Q. Not as many jobs available as there had been before?

20 A. Naturally, contacts were a threat, communications were a threat.

21 I remember I listened to the Mayor Radic who said at the time, we are not

22 going to be trading with Ustashas, we will turn towards Serbia. That's

23 how it was. These were difficult years.

24 Q. Then what happened not only was the border between Krajina and

25 Croatia closed so that there was no trading there, the corridor was closed

Page 18060

1 so there could be no trading between Serbia and the Krajina either which

2 was devastating to the economy of the Krajina, wasn't it.

3 A. Certainly, certainly, that's true.

4 Q. And this was as early as March of 1992 and the economy actually

5 just got steadily worse as the year went on, didn't it?

6 A. From one day to the next, it was progressively worse. It was the

7 consequence of everything that was going on.

8 Q. Inflation became a huge problem. You talk frequently in your

9 diary about how the price of cigarettes just kept skyrocketing up into the

10 air? Yes?

11 A. Yes, yes. You could make an order at one price and then pay at a

12 different price.

13 Q. I'm going now to 12 April of 1992. Begins with English page

14 L0054479. At page 4481, you're talking about a meeting of the Assembly of

15 the Autonomous Region of Krajina, may have been held the day before on 11

16 April, 1992, and the part that I'm interested in is you're talking about

17 Nikola Erceg trying to get approval for the executive council which he was

18 the president of, of the membership of that council, and one of the people

19 he wanted to be a member was Predrag Radic. And I think you will recall

20 that the deputies basically wound up, after discussing the matter, voting

21 against Predrag Radic and not making him a part of the executive council;

22 correct?

23 A. Yes. I recall that.

24 Q. You recall, I think, also, that Mr. Radic was not present at that

25 meeting which had something to do with some of the criticism leveled

Page 18061

1 against him at that time.

2 A. Well, I -- that escapes my memory. I can't remember exactly. I

3 remember approximately.

4 Q. All right.

5 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, can you point out, please, where you say

6 showing he wasn't present?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I can.

8 Q. If you look right after the names, the last name being Nikola

9 Erceg, then it reads, the first one to ask for the floor after these names

10 were announced was Rajko Kasagic who said that those who did not attend

11 the sessions of the assembly could not be members of the government. The

12 deputies realised he was referring to Radic, and a long and at times

13 bitter discussion ensued. Now if we go now, sir, to 15 April of 1992 --

14 MS. KORNER: I'm very sorry, the only reason I'm objecting to this

15 at the moment is that that doesn't, in my reading, and I think that's why

16 we should stick very carefully instead of summarising to the accurate

17 words. The fact that it says that people who didn't attend the sessions of

18 the AR Krajina assembly could not be members of the Krajina government. It

19 may be an interpretation but it doesn't actually say that Mr. Radic wasn't

20 there.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: It actually says the deputies realised he was

22 referring to Radic.

23 MS. KORNER: I appreciate that but it's still - I'm sorry,

24 Mr. Ackerman - doesn't say that Mr. Radic wasn't there. He may not attend

25 some sessions of the assembly.

Page 18062

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Well --

2 MS. KORNER: The exact -- I'm sorry, may I finish? The exact

3 words should be put rather than what Mr. Ackerman perceives as the

4 inference to be drawn.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: It might even be more helpful if the Prosecutor

7 would wait until I had finished an issue before she has contended that

8 there is no evidence to support it --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Because there is.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Ms. Korner has made her point with which the

12 Trial Chamber agrees more or less, obviously not knowing what your next

13 question is going to be or any other further references that you may have.

14 So please proceed, Mr. Ackerman, taking into account what was brought up

15 by Ms. Korner.

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. On 15 April of 1992, sir, you wrote about Glas, an article in

18 Glas, dated 13 April, the author said: "We contacted Predrag Radic and

19 asked him to comment on the fact that he was not elected to the Krajina

20 government, to the post of vice-president of the executive council --"

21 MS. KORNER: Page, please.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Page L0034686.

23 Q. Radic apparently says, however: "On Saturday, 11 April, I could

24 not attend the AR Krajina assembly session for the simple reason that I'd

25 been asked by the gentlemen from the European community mission,

Page 18063

1 Mr. Botanik and Mr. Mayhew, to go with them to help them reach the area of

2 Tomislavgrad, Rascani village, where 200 Serbs are imprisoned." He then

3 talks about returning Saturday evening around 1900 hours, that he couldn't

4 be in two places at the same time, and then says this: "I am just

5 surprised that I was simply erased from the list of candidates for

6 vice-president of the executive council without finding another candidate

7 in my place. This move is utterly frivolous and irresponsible and all I

8 can say is that in the future, I will be very critical in my dealings with

9 the Krajina AR assembly as well as with respect to its work, said Banja

10 Luka mayor, Predrag Radic, MA."

11 Now, it looks like at that time one of the horses of these four

12 horsemen you've been talking about really wasn't pulling with the rest of

13 them, doesn't it?

14 A. Well, these were struggles for position, the same thing as for

15 Karadzic and Krajina Stupna. It was a faction struggles between two

16 extremist factions of the SDS just like regarding Radic, they often

17 argued, they had arguments, and if you think that that is excusing him

18 during whose mandate as a mayor the entire part of sacred facilities were

19 destroyed, then that's fine. I can erase him from my list of the horsemen

20 of the apocalypse.

21 Q. I now want to go just a little further on the same date. I'm at

22 page L0034688, and this is a news report from Radio Banja Luka that you

23 have reproduced in your diary. The reporter seems to be Stegic, it talks

24 about --

25 A. Stegic.

Page 18064

1 Q. Talks about a meeting between representatives of the SDA and the

2 president of the Banja Luka SO to discuss the current situation in Banja

3 Luka. What I'm interested in is this. It's quite simple, I think. You

4 mention in there, or it is mentioned in that report that there was this

5 meeting between Predrag Radic and the chairman of the SDA, Muharem Krzic,

6 and the thing that I -- that kind of struck me was that I don't recall

7 anywhere else in your diary, and I could be wrong but I don't think I am,

8 I don't recall anywhere else that you mention Muharem Krzic again, and was

9 it that he was not active after that or he left town or faded away? Or

10 what?

11 A. No. I do mention him, as far as I can recall. This man, Muharem

12 Krzic, he's an obscure character and it is thanks to an article I wrote

13 for a newspaper he was removed from his post of a consul to Norway. He

14 was, how can I explain it? He was one of those men who only allegedly

15 were concerned about their people but in fact he was self-publicist, that

16 kind of thing. He was around. I did mention him, although I don't have

17 any positive opinion on him.

18 Q. And you say that you wrote some kind of an article about him that

19 caused him to be removed from his post as consul to Norway?

20 A. Yes, that's right. I really can't tell you when that was exactly.

21 I think it was in 1994 or 1995 or even in 1996. I wrote an article and

22 accused him of -- in fact -- collaborating with the Serb side in an

23 awkward manner and this was obvious demonstrated during the operation

24 September 1994 when the Serb army tried to remove the leadership. He was

25 well looked after.

Page 18065

1 Q. If we go now -- sir, I think it's about another page maybe, to

2 L0034690 --

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if Mr. Ackerman is moving to a new page,

4 can I raise something at the end of the session then? In the sense it's

5 quarter to 2.00 now.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll stop.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stop with the testimony here. Sir, you will

8 need to come back again tomorrow. We'll continue with the

9 cross-examination. Please draw the curtains down so that the witness can

10 leave the courtroom without being seen. We are in open session. Please

11 try to be brief as much as you can, Ms. Korner, because we are already at

12 quarter to 2.00.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll just wait for the witness to leave.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in the light of Your Honour's remarks

16 this morning, do I understand that Your Honour will not grant any

17 extension beyond the 1st of August? Because we have to --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I have made it very clear, Ms. Korner. I

19 have worked my calculations extremely well, how much time we require to

20 write the final judgement, I'm being very conservative. If I can cut down

21 even further I would cut down even further. We need time, we need time,

22 we are desperately in need of time. There is no way I can extend the end

23 for the case of the Prosecution beyond the 1st of August. So that's

24 definite. I am going to extend the time for the Rule 98 bis for both of

25 you. You will have an additional week each. Mr. Ackerman will have one

Page 18066

1 week more. That's three weeks in total. And you will have two weeks

2 instead of the one week that we had spoken of. And that's about it.

3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm afraid there is no point in

4 arguing. I simply don't follow why there is enough time to extend the

5 Rule 98 but not enough time to hear the evidence. But Your Honour has

6 made the ruling.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I can give you back seven. I will take back the

8 extra week that I offered you if you want.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that the Defence request for -- to have an

11 additional week is justified, given the circumstances, and I'm prepared to

12 give it. If you don't need that week, I will take it back. That -- but I

13 will not give you the week to your advantage. I will take that week to

14 our advantage because we are short for time.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, clearly, we will take what crumbs Your

16 Honour gives us. My next application, therefore, is that we sit, as there

17 is no other case going on, all day.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, file it in writing, Ms. Korner and we will see

19 what Mr. Ackerman will say about that.

20 MS. KORNER: I know what Mr. Ackerman's response will be because

21 we've had Mr. Ackerman's response. Your Honour has taken this decision.

22 I think in fairness we are entitled to use as much time as the Court can

23 offer us.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: In fairness, Ms. Korner, try to reorganise your

25 ranks completely, see where you need to go beyond the statements and if

Page 18067

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Page 18068

1 you don't do that, I will do it.

2 MS. KORNER: That leads me to the third question: Am I going to

3 be given any time tomorrow to re-examine the witness?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, if necessary, we will bring him the day after

5 for re-examination. If we don't finish the examination -- the

6 cross-examination tomorrow, you will -- and you need to re-examine the

7 witness, I'll bring him over the day after.

8 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm going to ask.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, wait until she finishes and then

10 you will have your say.

11 MS. KORNER: I'm going to ask that Your Honour be a little more

12 even-handed with -- I understand with this witness, because it was all in

13 writing but where the witnesses, it's a verbal, the statements are not in

14 my submission sufficient, that Your Honour is a bit more even-handed about

15 the time allowed for chief and the time allowed for cross-examination.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You obviously have said what I have in mind.

17 It is obvious that with this witness it is different. With other

18 witnesses it may not be the same and if there is to be a sharing of time,

19 that would be taken into consideration according to the requirements in

20 each case. That's definitely how it will be.

21 Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I was just going to say that the way the

23 examination is proceeding, because of the way we are doing it now, I will

24 very likely finish before the end of the session tomorrow.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That will make it even easier for Ms. Korner to go

Page 18069

1 ahead with the re-examination. There is one other thing that I want to

2 make clear, that we have a right and maybe we will have a great interest

3 in asking for some witnesses to be brought over ourselves when your case

4 is over, Mr. Ackerman. So please don't try to bang your heads against a

5 concrete wall because you will only hurt yourselves. And that's the end

6 of it.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

8 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

9 the 24th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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