Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18172

1 Wednesday, 25 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could you

6 please call the case?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Brdjanin.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow the proceedings in a language that

12 you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat. Appearances for

15 the Prosecution?

16 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner assisted by Denise Gustin, case

17 manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Appearances for Radoslav

19 Brdjanin?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman. I'm

21 here with Aleksandar Vujic. Mr. Cunningham will be gone maybe all or part

22 of today, back with us tomorrow. May I report very briefly on the

23 treasury department issue?


25 MR. ACKERMAN: I spoke late last night, which was in the afternoon

Page 18173

1 in Washington DC, with a representative from the office of foreign assets

2 control explaining our concern. He agreed that the authorisation that was

3 sent to Judge Meron is not a licence and that the regulations require that

4 we be licensed. His view was that even though it wasn't a licence, it was

5 probably a good Defence in case we are charged with a crime.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I wish you luck, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I told him that gave me a lot of comfort. He said

8 what they are doing is they are trying to decide whether to issue

9 individual licences or a group licence, and that they would try to have an

10 answer to that today. I expressed to him that I felt that it was

11 important that they make that decision rather quickly because I didn't

12 like the jeopardy that I was in and so that's where we are and I have

13 advised all members of our association of that situation. Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. And as I did yesterday,

15 I would like you, Madam Registrar, to extract this part from today's

16 transcript and have it communicated to His Excellency, President Meron.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I've been keeping President Meron well

18 advised as to what I'm doing in this regard so he's getting all my letters

19 and I'm sending sort of daily e-mails to his chef de cabinet so he knows

20 where we are.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I prefer to do it myself, too. President Meron is

22 not someone who sleeps on things. He will act and he will act fast.

23 Thank you.

24 So, Ms. Korner, before you bring the witness in.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I apologise first for two things?

Page 18174

1 The schedule is catching up with me as well. I was unable to list -- to

2 have time to list the documents I was going to use after I'd spoken to the

3 witness so I just said both volumes. I'm not going through both volumes

4 of documents, but I will be going through a number with the witness,

5 particularly in relation to the military operations because he can deal

6 with them.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

8 MS. KORNER: And I apologise also for the late arrival of proofing

9 notes. They were sent to me by an intern who worked until half past 11.00

10 at night to get them into some sort of order. For which I'm very

11 grateful. But I'm sorry they arrived so late.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't read them as yet but I will go through

13 them as we go along. All right I thank you, Ms. Korner. Yesterday you

14 raised the matter of the exhibit binders for Bosanska Krupa, Celinac and

15 Kotor Varos. Well, I checked with my staff and indeed, none of these

16 binders or none of the binders for these three municipalities have been

17 admitted as yet. The -- yesterday, I made a mistake myself in referring

18 to the documents relating to the Celinac municipality, saying that I

19 remember that there was an objection on the part of Mr. Ackerman. Indeed

20 there was an objection on the part of Mr. Ackerman. The only thing being

21 is that we had discussed that objection here in an open session and I had

22 taken a decision. However, contrary to what you said, Mr. Ackerman, we

23 are all making mistakes now. There does not, at least we tried to go

24 through all the recent documents, which I brought with me too but there

25 doesn't seem to be a Defence response objecting to the exhibits from the

Page 18175

1 Bosanska Krupa municipality.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's correct, Your Honour, and I'll try

3 to get to that as quickly as I can, hopefully even today.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, because I wouldn't like, since I'm

5 tightening up the belt myself I wouldn't like to put the Prosecution into

6 further restrictions. That having been said, there will be some decisions

7 later on this morning, one will be on Rule 92 bis and also some on

8 protective measures. So expect them later on in the day, probably after

9 the first break because I still have to tie up with two of my staff.

10 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, on that note may I raise something

11 and I think it's worth raising in open court so Your Honours hear it and

12 Mr. Ackerman. Statements were taken from a number of women who were raped

13 in the Kotor Varos sawmill. We cannot persuade a single one of them to

14 come and testify. The one who was due to testify, who I think is on Your

15 Honour's list near the end, is -- she just had a baby, another small baby,

16 she is psychologically, we are told, incapable of giving evidence. It's

17 the same for all of them. It's perhaps not surprising. Now, Your Honour,

18 we can get, we hope, a Rule 92 bis declaration from at least -- we have

19 already got one from one of them who was put in as Rule 92. We tried to

20 persuade her to testify and the answer is the same there. We are going to

21 ask that Mr. Ackerman be kind enough to accept none of these statements

22 are direct evidence against Mr. Brdjanin, for obvious reasons we couldn't

23 even begin to try and put them in as Rule 92. We would ask that we may be

24 permitted to submit two statements under Rule 92 rather than calling any

25 of these women to relive these experiences. Your Honour, I'm raising it

Page 18176

1 now, I don't expect an answer straight away but so far Mr. Ackerman has

2 not in fact when there have been rape victims insisted that they go

3 through that evidence. And so it may be that that's acceptable but I

4 raise that at this stage.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest, Ms. Korner, now that you have given fair

6 advance warning to Mr. Ackerman, that you try and file the motion today

7 or --

8 MS. KORNER: You'd like it in writing would you? We are really

9 drowning with work, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But at least you need to hand in a copy

11 of these statements and an indication of who we are talking about.

12 MS. KORNER: I will.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That we won't do in open session obviously.

14 MS. KORNER: No.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But no, I'm pretty easy on that. I can live with an

16 oral motion.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And I can hand down an oral decision that's no

19 problem with me but obviously he needs to know who we are talking about.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Mr. Ackerman has the statements in any

21 event but we will give him the names and we will hand in the statements to

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We can move in that direction if

24 Mr. Ackerman cooperates, and I use cooperate not in the sense that if he

25 says no it means that he's not cooperating. So I want to make myself

Page 18177












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Page 18178

1 clear.

2 MS. KORNER: The other matter Your Honour is this, while we are on

3 the subject of documents. We haven't had the decision yet in the

4 journalist witness aspect and I am just wondering whether -- have Your

5 Honours admitted the article? I think Your Honours did say that but I'm

6 not 100 per cent sure.


8 MS. KORNER: It's admitted into evidence.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: The decision hasn't been handed down for more or

10 less administrative reasons more than anything else. We are still waiting

11 for a document which hasn't arrived as yet. None of us is to blame for

12 that but I wouldn't like to go into details but the position is, yes, the

13 document itself is being admitted.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, then, we will arrange to give it an exhibit

15 number at some stage and hand in a copy properly. Your Honour, then

16 finally, unless Your Honour has any other matters, this witness was

17 granted protective measures but when I spoke to him yesterday, he appeared

18 to be content to testify in open session. I just think it perhaps

19 preferable that Your Honour checks that with him before we do that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I will but we need -- yes, Mr. Ackerman?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, with regard to the first issue that

22 was raised by Ms. Korner, I can just say as a general proposition that in

23 every such instance, we have basically agreed to the testimony regarding

24 the actual sexual assaults themselves. My only concern would be the

25 peripheral matters that might be contained in those statements. But

Page 18179

1 otherwise --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't like to say much more than what I have

3 said until I have seen the statements or someone from my staff has seen

4 those statements. I think we can safely anticipate that if there is

5 anything beyond the sexual crimes, then this will be given due

6 consideration and --

7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, obviously there is the background

8 of how they ever got to the sawmill in the first place so the women do

9 describe the attacks on the villages, what happened to them and how they

10 arrived at the sawmill.


12 MS. KORNER: It may well be -- well, Your Honour, I think the best

13 thing is for Mr. Ackerman to have a look at them and to see whether he can

14 agree them or if he wishes to have excisions or redactions to let us know.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think we can take it up from there. It was

16 the whole idea, the purpose behind your request is to have some evidence

17 on rapes and basically that. I mean, I don't think you're going to rely

18 on these witnesses to prove that there was an attack on the town or on the

19 village. I don't know but.

20 MS. KORNER: I think one witness because we thought it would cover

21 both aspects of it but it may be Your Honour we can look at it from a

22 different way.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You make your own assessment and then we will decide

24 accordingly.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

Page 18180

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I can promise you our cooperation there. So let's

2 bring down the curtains for the time being until we bring the witness in.

3 Then we will discuss with the witness whether he cares for the protective

4 measures that have already been given, granted to him, and if not, we will

5 go into complete open session.

6 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, I propose to adopt the same system

7 in that I'm going to ask to hand in his statements just in case I'm unable

8 to complete my examination-in-chief properly in the day.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any objection to that, Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I do, Your Honour, unless in fact she is able to --

11 she is unable to complete her direct examination.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll leave it to the end.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: She's been given a whole day, I think that's

14 sufficient.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll leave it to the end. At the end of today's

16 sitting we will take the matter up.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to give

21 evidence in this trial that has been instituted against Radoslav Brdjanin,

22 and before you do so, our rules require that you make a solemn

23 declaration, equivalent to an oath, that in the course of your testimony

24 you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

25 truth. Mr. Usher, who is standing to your left will be handing you the

Page 18181

1 text of this declaration which I kindly ask you to read out aloud and that

2 will be your solemn undertaking with this Tribunal. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start from something that --

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour maybe we better go into, just for moment,

9 private session while you deal with those questions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree, Ms. Korner.

11 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

13 [Private session]

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 18182

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 [Open session]


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Now that we are in open session, I can confirm that

13 the witness has chosen out of his own free will to waive the two

14 protective measures that the Chamber had granted him upon specific request

15 by the Prosecution, namely the use of a pseudonym and facial distortion.

16 Now, have you ever given evidence before in your life?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I will just explain very briefly what's going to

19 happen. You know Ms. Korner. Ms. Korner is the lead counsel for the

20 Prosecution in this case. She will be putting to you a series of

21 questions which you need to answer in conformity with the oath that you

22 have taken a few minutes ago. It is anticipated that she will finish her

23 questioning today. Then you will be cross-examined, in other words

24 questioned, by the lead counsel for Radoslav Brdjanin, the lead Defence

25 counsel. That will be tomorrow. Tomorrow I will remind you once more but

Page 18183












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Page 18184

1 what is important for you to remember is that both Ms. Korner and

2 Mr. Ackerman have a right to question you. It's not just the Prosecution

3 that has a right to put questions to you but also the Defence, which

4 basically means that you have a corresponding duty, obligation, to answer

5 every question that is put to you irrespective of where it's coming from,

6 irrespective of who is putting the question to you.

7 My last word of advice to you, if you want to return home after

8 tomorrow, is to be brief in your answers and you just answer yes or no

9 when the question requires just that simple answer, and go into details

10 only in as far as you are asked, not beyond what you are asked, all right?

11 Did you understand me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, fully.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So good luck, Mr. Sadikovic. I leave you in the

14 hands of Ms. Korner, which is not a threat.

15 MS. KORNER: I hope Your Honour didn't mean it in the way it

16 sounded.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Examined by Ms. Korner:

19 Q. Mr. Sadikovic, is your name Muhamed Sadikovic?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And were you born on the 26th of June, 1961?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. So it's your birthday tomorrow, the day after?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow.

25 A. Yes, precisely.

Page 18185

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman will help you celebrate it tomorrow.


3 Q. Is it right that you are a Bosniak by ethnicity? Nationality?

4 A. That's true.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Sadikovic, I want to ask you a little bit about your

6 background and then we will go immediately to the events in 1991 and 1992.

7 I think, although born elsewhere, you were actually brought up in the

8 municipality of Kotor Varos, in the actual town itself?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And did you study construction engineering at the university of

11 Sarajevo?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Graduating in 1987?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And also by that stage, having done your military -- compulsory

16 military service?

17 A. Yes, in the former JNA.

18 Q. Then did you return to Kotor Varos where you were employed by a

19 construction company?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Thereafter, did you start your own company, manufacturing concrete

22 blocks?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can I just ask you this? In the course of your time in the

25 construction industry, did you ever come across Radoslav Brdjanin?

Page 18186

1 A. No, no, I didn't.

2 Q. Then, did you run this company until the start of the war in

3 Croatia in 1991?

4 A. Yes, yes. I was on the ground in Istria and Rovinj [phoen] away

5 on business.

6 Q. Did you join the SDA in 1991?

7 A. I did, yes.

8 Q. And were you a member of the executive board of the party in Kotor

9 Varos?

10 A. I was, yes.

11 Q. Was the president of the SDA Fikret Djikic?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And it may be we'll need to go through some of the other members

14 in a moment. Was the deputy president Ahmet Cirkic?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. And the secretary Bakir Dizdar?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Was there also in Kotor Varos a branch of the HDZ?

19 A. There was, yes, municipal board.

20 Q. And was that headed by a gentleman named Anto Mandic?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. And was there also obviously a branch of the SDS?

23 A. Yes, there was.

24 Q. And who was the president of the SDS?

25 A. It was Mr. Nedjeljko Djekanovic.

Page 18187

1 Q. Did you know both Mr. Djekanovic and Mr. Mandic?

2 A. Mandic was my neighbour, and I knew him much better than

3 Djekanovic.

4 Q. Can I just ask you this? Did the three political parties operate

5 from the same building within Kotor Varos or were they in separate

6 buildings?

7 A. In the early days, they were in different buildings but at a later

8 stage we were all given offices in one and the same building.

9 Q. And can you roughly tell us when that was?

10 A. Let me tell you I joined them later, after I returned from the

11 field in Croatia, but I think that in late 1991 or perhaps early 1992,

12 they already had premises in the same place.

13 Q. Now, you were -- you worked in the construction industry.

14 However, did there come a time when you entered into employment with the

15 Kotor Varos police force?

16 A. That's right. My party fellows decided that I should -- that I

17 could do it because they knew my family, they knew how I was brought up,

18 how I was educated. They knew that I had lived in a city, and that my

19 views were normal and that I would be up to the task.

20 Q. In order to do that, did you have to have any kind of training?

21 A. I was in Sarajevo at the republican MUP for Bosnia-Herzegovina and

22 I also underwent a short -- I mean for the training, and then I also

23 passed the medical checkup and a test.

24 Q. Now, Kotor Varos, I think we've heard, was a municipality that had

25 the majority but not an overall majority were Serb, some 14.000 or so.

Page 18188

1 The next biggest proportion being the Muslims, with 11.000 odd and then

2 the Croats with 10.000 odd. How was that ethnic makeup reflected in the

3 police force?

4 A. Let me tell you, before the elections, the ethnic structure of the

5 police force was tipped in favour of the Serb population and it was only

6 after the elections that the Croats and Bosniaks put that ethnic structure

7 right so that it was better then.

8 Q. Okay. So roughly -- before you say the elections, it was what,

9 largely a Serb police force? After the elections, there was more of a

10 balance, was there?

11 A. Yes. Indeed. Before the war, attention was not paid to the

12 ethnic structure, that is the ethnic structure of the population was not

13 reflected there.

14 Q. All right. So if you were asked to estimate, when you went into

15 the police, what the structure was percentage wise, what percentage when

16 you went in after the elections were the Serbs?

17 A. Well, roughly 40 to 45 per cent were Serbs, and the Bosniaks and

18 Croats accounted for some 55 per cent.

19 Q. Now, we've heard a lot of evidence about how the appointments of

20 police officers, police leaders, the chief and the commander were

21 political appointments, you've told us that your party decided you were

22 the candidate that should be put forward. Was your candidacy accepted

23 without opposition?

24 A. No, my candidacy was not accepted and it took a lot of time for

25 me to get to the police station to work. The Serb representative, the

Page 18189












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Page 18190

1 chief, was appointed immediately, and his superior, and that was Nedjeljko

2 Maric, was appointed by a decision of the republican MUP in September 1991

3 and I made it finally to the police station in early 1992. I think it was

4 January, because there was a lot of opposition to my joining the police.

5 Q. All right. Who was the chief -- who was the Serb representative

6 to the chief, what was his name?

7 A. Savo Tepic was the chief, and the commander was Nedjeljko Maric,

8 representing the Croat population, of course, and I was the third one,

9 deputy commander.

10 Q. All right. Now, who was leading the opposition to your

11 appointment and why?

12 A. Head of the public security centre in Banja Luka, that is the

13 whole region, Stojan Zupljanin, and also the head of my office, Savo

14 Tepic.

15 Q. And why were they opposing you?

16 A. Mr. Zupljanin told me something like he'd heard that I was not a

17 bad man but that he had already a Muslim in the police, Sejdo Tatar, who

18 was a good policeman, a highly competent one, and that as long as he was

19 there, there was no way I could make my way into the police station. And

20 the reason for it was that this gentleman, Sejdo Tatar, was married to a

21 Serb and he thought that he'd be able to manipulate him and that he would

22 do whatever he ordered him to.

23 Q. What rank did Mr. Tatar told in the Kotor Varos police?

24 A. I think that at that time he was a criminal investigation -- that

25 is an inspector in the criminal investigations department in the Kotor

Page 18191

1 Varos station.

2 Q. All right. Now, when did you meet Mr. Zupljanin, when you had

3 this conversation with him?

4 A. It was when I went to Sarajevo to collect the decision signed by

5 the then minister, and the decision was sent through official channels,

6 like all the other documents, but it was never delivered to me, and I was

7 never invited to come and start performing my duties, but I knew that a

8 decision had been signed so I went to Sarajevo, collected the document,

9 and then went to Mr. Zupljanin to ask him why was it that I could not

10 enter the police station and perform the duties to which I had been

11 assigned. Normally, like my chief and the commander, there was the same

12 procedure, so why couldn't I assume my duties like the other two

13 candidates? I enjoyed the support of the head of the municipality, Anto

14 Mandic, and of course I had the support of the president of my party, and

15 his other associates, and that is why I was issued this decision in

16 Sarajevo and then we all fought together so that I could get into the

17 police station and start performing my duties.

18 Q. All right. What I was actually after, it's my fault,

19 Mr. Sadikovic, is roughly what date was this, that you spoke to Zupljanin?

20 A. Well, I think it was sometime in October, I think we talked in

21 October, in mid-October.

22 Q. All right. And you saw him in Sarajevo, is that what you were

23 saying?

24 A. No, no. In his office in Banja Luka, that is where we met.

25 Q. All right. I'd like you very quickly, please, to look at a

Page 18192

1 document that dealt with your actual appointment, please, Exhibit P2129.

2 Which is after divider -- my bundle, 12. It's dated the 31st of January,

3 1992. This is an extract from the minutes of the HDZ Kotor Varos

4 municipal board dated the 31st of January, and do we see under item 2,

5 that the president, Anto Mandic, submitted a report on the interparty

6 meeting, the major problem for the continuation of the work of the

7 assembly was the appointment of yourself as the deputy commander of the

8 police, agreement was reached and you started work on the Monday? So as

9 you remember, you started work in January, 1992?

10 A. Yes. This proves it. That is I gave you the month. I didn't

11 give you the date. And I have to explain that an inspector from the

12 Sarajevo Ministry of the Interior had to come before I could enter the

13 police station in Kotor Varos and assume my duty.

14 Q. All right. Thank you very much, sir, you can put that document

15 away. You took up your position, did you, as the deputy commander of the

16 police station in Kotor Varos?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And in order for you, for the police in Kotor Varos to communicate

19 with the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo, could you go directly to

20 them or did you have to go via Banja Luka?

21 A. No. On the chain of command our communication is such that you

22 first report to the chief, to the head of the public security centre in

23 Banja Luka and then they communicate with others, and also, when something

24 comes from Sarajevo, it first goes to Banja Luka and then reaches us in

25 Kotor Varos.

Page 18193

1 Q. All right. And were you having any problems with your

2 communication with Sarajevo during the period between January and June of

3 1992?

4 A. Let me tell you, in the early days, there were -- it wasn't

5 difficult, but after the parallel police was formed for the Autonomous

6 Region of Bosanska Krajina, communication with Sarajevo was interrupted,

7 it was discontinued and we stopped receiving dispatches and all the rest

8 that we had to receive from Sarajevo. It went to Banja Luka, to the new

9 police, or the -- of Republika Srpska and Kotor Varos was an integral part

10 of that police, without our knowledge or our consent, of course.

11 Q. All right. Are we talking about after March of 1992, when

12 the -- there was a split in the Ministry of the Interior and the Serbian

13 Ministry of the Interior was set up?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. All right. I want to look at some of the early events in 1992 in

16 Kotor Varos. Could you be shown now, please, P29? Now, this is a

17 decision that apparently was taken by what is described as the Assembly of

18 the Serbian People of Kotor Varos to join the Autonomous Region of

19 Krajina, and it's dated the 7th of February of 1992. Now, what was the

20 Serbian assembly, as far as you were aware?

21 A. Let me tell you that is the highest authority in the Serb region

22 of Bosanska Krajina, that is Republika Srpska.

23 Q. Yes. It talks about here, though, in February, 1992, the Assembly

24 of the Serbian People of Kotor Varos. Were you aware of such an assembly?

25 A. No. It was done unlawfully and in parallel with the parliament,

Page 18194

1 with the assembly which was elected lawfully in the elections of 1991, and

2 that assembly functioned normally after the elections in 1990, and this

3 was a parallel body set up without our knowledge or the -- or the

4 Croatian -- or the Croats.

5 Q. All right. Now, were you aware, at the time, in other words in

6 February of 1992, that this so-called assembly had made a decision to join

7 the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

8 A. No. I don't think anybody was wise to it. I certainly wasn't.

9 Q. Thank you very much. You can give that one back to the usher.

10 In this period of time, that is around February and March of 1992,

11 were you able to receive television broadcasts from Sarajevo?

12 A. No. Unfortunately, we couldn't, and that was one of the things

13 that were done in the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, we could not

14 watch Sarajevo television because the relays, the transmitting stations on

15 Vlasic and Kozara were all pointed at Banja Luka and Belgrade so that we

16 could not watch that programme.

17 Q. Now, what were the programmes like that you were receiving from

18 Banja Luka or other areas?

19 A. Let me tell you, these were nothing but propaganda programmes

20 which talked about the sufferings, the trials and tribulations of the Serb

21 people throughout its -- their history. The opening of graves where

22 allegedly the Serb people were buried. And such programmes, which suited

23 only one of the peoples, whereas the other two peoples were just ignored,

24 and all these programmes were sending a message that those two peoples

25 were a threat to the Serbs, and that throughout their history the Serbs

Page 18195












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Page 18196

1 had been under threat and that they had been victims.

2 Q. Now, did you, during the period between January and June of 1992,

3 ever see Radoslav Brdjanin on television?

4 A. Yes. In the media and the written press and on television and

5 radio.

6 Q. Did you know what position he held within the political structures

7 in Banja Luka?

8 A. Yes, I did. I knew that he was also a member of parliament of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

10 Q. And can you remember specifically any of the things that he said

11 on television?

12 A. He said that -- that Serb people needed it and that the Serb

13 people had to do it and that the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina

14 would be established and that it would be an integral part of Republika

15 Srpska and that all Serbs had to live in one state. That was the gist of

16 it.

17 Q. Now, had the non-Serbs in Kotor Varos responded to the

18 mobilisation following the outbreak of the war in Croatia?

19 A. Let me tell you, 95 to 98 per cent of Bosniaks and Croats did not

20 respond to the mobilisation. A, they did not want to go to war, and B,

21 they above all didn't want to go to a war in another state and be involved

22 in it.

23 Q. Now, how did that failure to respond to the mobilisation, by the

24 non-Serbs, affect relationships in the municipality, in the town in

25 particular?

Page 18197

1 A. Let me tell you, it was also a way to eliminate Muslims, Bosniaks

2 and Croats from the Territorial Defence, because they knew that when the

3 summons came to a Bosniak or a Croat to go to the front in Croatia, that

4 he would refuse to do it, and thereby he would be eliminated from the

5 Territorial Defence, his weapon taken away, and given to -- that is either

6 left in the depots, either stored or given to a Serb.

7 Q. Within Kotor Varos, was the town divided into areas which were

8 specifically Serb, Muslim or Croat, or was it all mixed?

9 A. Let me tell you, it was mixed by and large. Across Bosnia it was

10 mixed, you can't really separate Bosniak or Croat or Serb part because if

11 you have a purely ethnic village somewhere, right next to it is a village

12 with somebody else so that it is impossible to separate, to take out, some

13 territories or parts of territories and have them really ethnically pure.

14 Q. Now, you've told us that the failure to respond meant that Muslims

15 didn't have weapons and so on. Was there any other consequence that

16 resulted from the failure to respond to mobilisation?

17 A. Well, under the then law of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that was --

18 that was tantamount to desertion but we didn't understand it like that.

19 We thought that it was a highly moral act because we did not want to go to

20 war and we did not want to attack other peoples.

21 Q. Were the people who failed to respond to mobilisation able to keep

22 their jobs?

23 A. Until the aggression -- before the aggression, yes, but when power

24 was taken over in Kotor Varos on the 11th of June, Bosniaks and Croats

25 were removed from their jobs.

Page 18198

1 Q. All right. I want to ask you very shortly about arms. During

2 this period, were you aware of Serbs receiving arms, and if so, how?

3 A. I was aware of that, yes. Serbs were armed on three different

4 occasions, weapons were being given to them. A large amount of weapons

5 from Croatia and Slovenia was being transferred into Bosnia. The weapons

6 belonging to the JNA, which had been paid for by all the different peoples

7 of the former Yugoslavia, went to the Serbs, and the officers of the JNA

8 had those weapons put away. Later given only to one of the ethnic armies,

9 which was the case in Kotor Varos and across the other towns too.

10 Q. Yes, you say three -- you told us three different occasions.

11 A. Yes, yes. Three times. The weapons were being handed out three

12 times. Chronologically speaking in January, I believe, February and

13 March, roughly speaking. I'm talking about three different periods of

14 time.

15 Q. All right. Now, did you, in the Kotor Varos police station, have

16 weapons?

17 A. Yes. Being a police station, we did have certain weapons. Each

18 of those working there had a certain amount of weapons, and the reserve

19 police force had been 100 per cent mobilised so we did have our own

20 warehouse containing our own weapons.

21 Q. Roughly speaking, what sort of weapons were they?

22 A. Mostly automatic and semi-automatic weapons, hand-held launchers,

23 M-53 and short barrel guns.

24 Q. What happened to the weapons that were in the Kotor Varos police

25 station?

Page 18199

1 A. Just in order to avoid confusion there, we had our own weapons at

2 the police station but in the same building, we had the TO, Territorial

3 Defence warehouse, the weapons from the whole municipality, which had been

4 paid for in peace time by the companies working in the area, certain

5 money, amount of money was put aside to pay for the weapons that were to

6 be used by all the three different ethnic groups. The warehouse was in

7 the same building that our police station was. The policy of the Serbian

8 people, in that period, was clearly indicating that they were preparing

9 for war, so the weapons that were meant for all the three peoples of the

10 municipality had been taken from the warehouse in Kotor Varos to Banja

11 Luka without the consent or without any kind of agreement with the

12 remaining two ethnic groups. All the documents that every municipality

13 had, military administration, with records of military conscripts,

14 military service, the assignments given to conscripts, once their military

15 service had been served, all these documents was in an unfair way whisked

16 away to Banja Luka, as well as all the weapons to keep Muslims and Croats

17 from laying their hands on those weapons and using them.

18 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you to look at a document and

19 then ask you about some detail of that. Could you have a look, please, at

20 P2141? Now, Mr. Sadikovic, this is an except from the minutes of the

21 National Defence council dated the 7th of April, and it appears you were

22 present at that meeting. Do you remember that meeting?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Because one of the things, if we look at item 1, we see that

25 Lieutenant Colonel Peulic, the commander of the unit based in Kotor Varos,

Page 18200

1 was talking --

2 A. Peulic, Peulic.

3 Q. Peulic. Was talking about the locations of the JNA units and then

4 there was a discussion about the Territorial Defence, in which the taking

5 of weapons from the TO depot to Banja Luka, the self-organising of

6 citizens and setting up of units in local communes was discussed and

7 Mr. Tepic, the commander of the TO stressed that weapons had been taken

8 away and put in the Mali Logor barracks in Banja Luka. And then if you --

9 if we go to the end of the item, we see that there was a discussion about

10 the reserve police force being strengthened, reserve police force should

11 maintain watches in order to avoid the creation of other units and

12 self-organising in villages, and then there was an arrangement for a

13 meeting with Stojan Zupljanin, with representatives from the municipality

14 effectively I think from all three parties.

15 Now I want to take each area in turn. First of all, the removal

16 of the weapons to Banja Luka, had that happened shortly before this

17 meeting took place?

18 A. Yes. That was the Serbian policy throughout Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. Vlasic and the rest, the communications, they did that and we only

22 discussed later on, but once everything had already been done, and the

23 weapons had already been taken away, and then there was discussion but

24 they had already taken all the documents away. And it was only then that

25 they were prepared to talk. They had their own agenda. Once they had

Page 18201












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13 English transcripts.













Page 18202

1 carried it out there was a discussion which was no use to us, what could

2 we have done at that point?

3 Q. All right. Had you been on duty the night that the weapons were

4 taken?

5 A. Yes. I was on duty. I was the officer on duty at the police

6 station.

7 Q. And --

8 A. And about midnight, or just after midnight, 1.00 a.m. perhaps, I

9 can't remember the exact time, inspector Savo Todorovic arrived from Banja

10 Luka and told me to come with him to inspect the local branch stations in

11 Maslovare and Siprage. So I went with him to Maslovare and Siprage to

12 inspect the stations that had been set up there. We didn't reach Siprage

13 because there were problems with the road. There was a bridge there that

14 had been damaged by water. We went to the checkpoints to the station in

15 Maslovare and after that, we went to a cafe to have a drink. However,

16 once I returned, my duty officer, Anto Kljajic told me, boss, while you

17 were away, the weapons were loaded on to trucks from the depot, from the

18 TO depot, army members came and took the weapons to Banja Luka.

19 Q. All right. Now, the other matters that were discussed was that

20 there should be the strengthening of reserve police forces to maintain

21 watches in all local communes in order to avoid the creation of other

22 units and self-organising in the villages. Now, what was actually

23 happening at this stage? Were patrols being set up or barricades?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who were they being set up by?

Page 18203

1 A. Let me tell you, Kotor Varos had already been blocked, a lot

2 earlier, before the takeover on the 11th of June, it was blocked by

3 checkpoints set up by Serbs at the exit towards Banja Luka, Teslic and

4 Skender Vakuf, the roads out of town. No one could enter or leave Kotor

5 Varos without being checked, without their cars being searched. Might

6 have been just an ordinary small car or a truck, a lorry, all the vehicles

7 were being searched. It was done a lot earlier, a long time before the

8 takeover on the 11th of June, 1992.

9 Q. Yes, we are looking at the moment at April of 1992 at the time of

10 this meeting, had this -- blockages been set up, barricades?

11 A. Yes, yes. That's the period of time I'm talking about, precisely.

12 Q. Now, I think when the investigator came to see you in October

13 2000, you marked on a map where these various checkpoints were and I

14 wonder if you can have, please, the document which was attachment 3 to

15 your statement?

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour we have the original here which as you'll

17 see is easier to see because it's in colour, whereas the copy we all got

18 is -- if that can be put onto the ELMO? I can't see any markings on it.

19 Your Honour, that's the original colour map but I don't think

20 Mr. Sadikovic's markings are on that but you can see it --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a particular part that you would.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can make the markings now, if

23 you'd like me to.


25 Q. All right. We have actually got --

Page 18204

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Where do we need to zoom in, Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: This is the one, sorry, it's here. This is a better

3 one. Sorry. This is the one he actually marked, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let him confirm that he is the author of the

5 markings first, because they are marked but not initialed from what I can

6 see.

7 MS. KORNER: At the bottom of the page, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't see the bottom of the page.

9 MS. KORNER: Can we move up for just a moment? Yes, you will see.



12 Q. Can you just confirm, Mr. Sadikovic, that those are your initials

13 at the bottom?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: There are three initials there.

15 MS. KORNER: I think one's in -- I think it's --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, mine is the one in the

17 middle.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


20 Q. Can we now bring the map down again so we can just see where --

21 where you marked those crosses, sir, are those where the blockages were,

22 as it were, the checkpoints?

23 A. Yes. Maybe the locations are not specified but it was along these

24 sections of the road.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, could you direct the witness to the top,

Page 18205

1 right-hand corner, where there is a capital M, full stop, S, full stop,

2 dash C and further up, where there is Srpska Kontrol Tatcka, which I

3 suppose that is Serb checkpoints, if I translated well.


5 Q. Is that?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether it's his writing to start with and what does

7 MSC mean.

8 MS. KORNER: His initials, Your Honour. The C is for the number

9 of the exhibit. It's in the statement.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.


12 Q. Could you just confirm, Mr. Sadikovic, is that your writing at the

13 top?

14 A. Yes. I wrote that.

15 Q. With your initials, MS, and then dash C for the number of the

16 document, I think it is.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if you look at the statement at page 6,

18 you'll see it's referred to there, the second statement, that is, 2000.

19 Q. Those, obviously, nobody expects them to be 100 per cent accurate,

20 but those are roughly where the checkpoints were? Is that right?

21 A. Yes, yes. You're right.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honours may that be made, then, P2327?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


Page 18206

1 Q. Now, the discussion was talking about patrols. Were there patrols

2 set up by the police?

3 A. Yes. The peculiar situation of Kotor Varos near the front in

4 Croatia and the overall security situation, it was in view of these that

5 we still had mixed patrols, patrolling the town and the local communes,

6 the surrounding local communes. That was according to our plan of work.

7 Q. Now, were there any patrols set up which were not ethnically

8 mixed? First of all in Kotor Varos town itself.

9 A. Yes. There were patrols that were ethnically pure, those were

10 Serb patrols. I'll give you two examples that might have resulted

11 in -- that could have resulted in incidents and conflict. It was in a

12 place called Bilice. It was a Croat village, and there was a platoon, a

13 squad, maybe even a platoon, including between 20 and 30 members of the

14 Serbian Territorial Defence. They were armed. And they went about the

15 village provoking the population. Drago Bandalo, a well-respected

16 citizen, who had previously worked abroad in Austria, he could no longer

17 stand by and watch, so he started arguing with them but that -- it never

18 came to anything more. I'll give you another example. Every single

19 evening in the late -- at late hours of the evening, there was a van, a

20 rather large van, that could hold between 10 and 15 police officers, or

21 uniformed persons, almost every night the van made the rounds of certain

22 locations in the town, and in the local communes of the Kotor Varos

23 municipality. The van was carrying Serbs and the commander was Sasa

24 Petrovic who was always in that van and they would make the rounds of

25 certain points in town, and this was also very irritating for the

Page 18207












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Page 18208

1 citizens, the population. However, we always tried to calm the situation

2 down. I used my authority as deputy commander and people respected me. I

3 always told everyone that they had to keep cool and stay calm -- to

4 prevent conflict from breaking out, to prevent armed conflict.

5 Q. Now, first of all, can you look, please, at another map of the

6 area, which has already been exhibited, P2120? If we can just put that on

7 the ELMO? If you can just indicate, Bilice, I think we can see. Is that,

8 if we focus on the top, right-hand corner. Yes, just stop there. Roughly

9 how far was that from Kotor Varos town?

10 A. Between 2 and a half and 3 kilometres, perhaps 3 and a half.

11 Q. Thank you. You can put that away again now.

12 Were there any actual incidents of violence breaking out before

13 June the 11th?

14 A. There were quite a number of incidents, provocations, rather.

15 I'll just give you several examples where people were being fired at, plum

16 in the middle of the town of Kotor Varos. I'll give you an example. I

17 think it was in March, 1992, perhaps April, I'm not sure. A reserve duty

18 police officer, a member of the Serbian TO, came back from the front in

19 Croatia carrying weapons and in a drunken state, or tipsy perhaps, doesn't

20 make a difference really. He fired at an unarmed civilian who was sitting

21 in a garden near one of the cafes in the town, just across the way from

22 Sumaria [phoen]. Another example from the Zanatski Centar, a group of

23 reserve duty officers just when the inspector from Banja Luka had arrived

24 for the Muslims and Croats to sign an oath of loyalty to the MUP of the

25 Republika Srpska we had a meeting at the pensioners' home but there had

Page 18209

1 been an incident caused by soldiers returning from the Croatian front, a

2 group of soldiers, again fired at a Bosniak, Smajlovic, nicknamed Bili,

3 and the third example I can give you is they fired at a car, a taxi, Ahmet

4 Kovacic from Vecici. An honest man, known as an honest and decent man by

5 Croats, Serbs and Muslims alike. So these are the three examples I can

6 give you now but there were many incidents like that. I personally tried

7 to sort things out when these things happened. I went there to try to

8 calm people down. I'm giving you these three situations because I

9 personally took part in those. I was trying to tell everyone to calm

10 down.

11 Q. Now, you mentioned the loyalty oath. I want to come on to that in

12 a moment. Still on that document, a meeting was going to be arranged with

13 Stojan Zupljanin on the 8th of April. Did you attend that meeting? First

14 of all, was there such a meeting, to your knowledge?

15 A. There was no meeting with Stojan Zupljanin, who was my boss at

16 that time, as a result of those incidents, inspector Savo Todorovic came,

17 who tried to sort the problems out in cooperation with myself and other

18 relevant people in Kotor Varos.

19 Q. Right. Now, let's move to the question of the loyalty oath. At

20 what stage did you, the police in Kotor Varos, get informed about the new

21 loyalty oath?

22 A. Let me tell you, just like all the other police stations, the

23 security services centre in Banja Luka, they came to us in Kotor Varos

24 that day and told us that we should take sides, whether we would be part

25 of the Republika Srpska MUP or whether we would remain loyal to the Bosnia

Page 18210

1 and Herzegovina MUP. From what I could tell from the media, and I did

2 have a phone conversation with a colleague of mine from Kljuc, he told me

3 that the Muslims and Croats in Kljuc had been sent off for vacation and

4 that the police station had been taken over by Serbs, of course. In our

5 town it was supposed to be the same day when each and every single

6 individual at the police station in Kotor Varos were supposed to publicly

7 declare their allegiance, but that was the reason why the oath of loyalty

8 was never signed to the MUP of Republika Srpska. I think that was the

9 only police station in the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina where

10 there was no division along these lines and no oath of loyalty to the MUP

11 of Republika Srpska was actually signed.

12 Q. So, no Serbs or Muslims or Croats in the Kotor Varos police

13 station signed the loyalty oath at that stage?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. Not officially, we didn't sign any oath.

15 But the Serbs were already working for the MUP of Republika Srpska, they

16 were there when its foundation was proclaimed at the Borac football

17 stadium, they were already working for the MUP of Republika Srpska. They

18 were mopping up the Kupres area and so on and so forth. The Bosniaks and

19 Croats officially did not sign a loyalty oath. Most of them, anyway, I

20 think, would have refused to sign this oath. I'm speaking on behalf of

21 myself, my colleagues, Bosniaks and Croats alike, my commander Nedjo

22 Komavic [phoen] and all the rest. I think only very few Muslims and

23 Croats would have signed, as they did later on.

24 Q. Were you called to a meeting with Stojan Zupljanin around this

25 period of time, May of 1992?

Page 18211

1 A. Yes. My chief, my superior, according to our chain of command,

2 informed me that we had a meeting scheduled in Banja Luka with the chief

3 of the public security -- security services centre, Stojan Zupljanin.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour this is going to take a little time,

5 perhaps a little time, so perhaps that is an appropriate time to break.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will break now for 25 minutes

7 starting from now.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.


11 Q. Now, Mr. Sadikovic, you were just about to --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Hold on one moment. We need the accused.

13 [The accused entered court]


15 Q. Mr. Sadikovic, you were about to tell us about this meeting you

16 had with Zupljanin. Your superior, that is Mr. Tepic, had told you to

17 attend this meeting; had he?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. And was the meeting in Banja Luka in the CSB building?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did something happen when you arrived at the building?

22 A. Something did. The colleagues involved in the security of the

23 public security centre were surprised when I came because I was wearing my

24 official cap and the patch, and that is the five-pointed star like

25 everybody else was wearing in Bosnia, and I had all the other insignia and

Page 18212

1 he asked me who was I and whoever saw anyone wearing the -- sporting the

2 five-pointed star still?

3 Q. Just very briefly, how had the uniform changed, as far as the Serb

4 police were concerned?

5 A. Instead of the star that we wore and the cap, they started wearing

6 blue berets, and they had the Serb, tri-coloured flag rather than the

7 five-pointed star. And in Cyrillic, they had the flashes on their

8 sleeves, it said, Militia Republika Srpska, Republika Srpska police, and

9 there was nothing in Latin.

10 Q. All right. Now, at this meeting, what did Zupljanin want?

11 A. That meeting went on for a long time, almost three hours. We

12 talked in a normal atmosphere, and basically, what was said was that I, as

13 a representative of the Bosniak people in the police, and as a senior

14 official, should prevail upon my people and the Croats to hand over their

15 weapons and to sign loyalty to the Ministry of the Interior of Republika

16 Srpska, that he wanted me still to be the deputy commander at the police

17 station, that we should maintain the relations in Kotor Varos as such, so

18 that the transition could be done. But basically it was to hand over the

19 weapons and to sign our loyalty to Republika Srpska, that is the

20 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner, just to make this clear for

22 the record, we are talking of Stojan Zupljanin here?

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And not Slobodan Zupljanin.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, Stojan Zupljanin. He

Page 18213

1 was my boss at the time, head of the public security centre.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.


4 Q. Did you agree to any of those requests or demands, however you put

5 them?

6 A. Let me tell you, it never crossed my mind to do anything like it.

7 I tried to gain some time because I wanted to talk to other people about

8 it, so I asked for about a month to do that, to talk to people, to visit

9 everybody on the ground, to talk to people who could understand. As a

10 matter of fact I was bidding for time so that we could get our bearings

11 and see which way things were developing so that I could seek advice from

12 other people hoping that something else would happen rather than what did

13 happen.

14 Q. And did you give Zupljanin an answer after that month?

15 A. No. Let me tell you, Zupljanin told me that, no, that was much

16 too long, and that there was no way I could get a month, that I could have

17 about seven days, and regardless of my performance and what I thought and

18 regardless of what I did or did not do, they would take over the power in

19 Kotor Varos, as they had planned, as their plans anticipated, envisaged.

20 Q. So he gave you a week. Did you take a week?

21 A. Why, of course. Needless to say, seven days, a week, did not mean

22 anything. I needed much more time to see how things would turn there or

23 in Bosnia and all the rest. I couldn't do anything in seven days.

24 Q. All right. But really what I'm trying to get at is did you ever

25 say to him, no, I won't accept your requests, or demands?

Page 18214

1 A. Yes. I told him openly our meeting, how shall I call it. Well,

2 now suddenly I'm beginning to be afraid. At that time I wasn't afraid

3 and then I told him openly that the weapons would not be handed over

4 because we had all paid for these weapons and the Bosniak and the Croat

5 people had bought every one of these rifles, or other pieces with their

6 own money and therefore those weapons would not be handed over but if they

7 had decided to take over the power, no problem, I and everybody else in

8 the executive government and everything, I will leave and whoever wants to

9 may step in and take over the power but just as long as they let the

10 Muslim and Croat people be. The moment they laid a finger on anyone in

11 our municipality, in our area, then those weapons will be used and we

12 shall come back, but until such a thing happens, no problem, I will leave

13 my duty, I will leave my office and I will sign it because I don't want to

14 have anything to do with that kind of authority, be it I or the majority

15 of people of my origin, and I believe I was speaking in the name of

16 Bosniaks and Croats and that we won't mind the flag or anything, let them

17 take over the power but let them also leave people alone.

18 Q. All right. I'm going to then look quickly at the events that --

19 some of the events in the documents that led to the takeover but I want to

20 touch very briefly on a slightly different topic. As a police commander

21 in the SJB in Kotor Varos, from whom did you receive your orders? Or who

22 did the SJB in Kotor Varos receive its orders from?

23 A. Nedjeljko Maric was the commander, a Croat. Of course, and my

24 colleague, that is a friend, who studied in Sarajevo. We both studied in

25 Sarajevo, and we were on very good terms, personal and all the rest.

Page 18215

1 Q. Sorry, it's my fault again. It wasn't a proper question.

2 In the chain of command, from whom did the SJB in Kotor Varos take

3 its instructions?

4 A. The police station in Kotor Varos received its instructions from

5 the public security centre in Banja Luka. That was the chain of command

6 and communication.

7 Q. Now, did the municipal assembly have any authority to issue

8 instructions to the police?

9 A. No. No. Under normal circumstances, that is in peace time, the

10 interior affairs law, because we have one such, the municipal assembly

11 could propose certain amendments or perhaps if problems arose, if things

12 happened, then they could submit their own proposals, suggestions, and

13 help us to overcome such problems in peace time. But in wartime, under

14 emergency conditions, of course, the competences, the terms of reference

15 of the assembly are different than in peace time so that we were present

16 at meetings when relevant problems were discussed and cooperated and

17 solved all the problems jointly and we always heeded proposals and

18 suggestions that the assembly had to make, all people employed in the

19 municipal hall in Kotor Varos.

20 Q. You say in wartime, in emergency conditions, it was different.

21 What happened in respect when the assembly could not sit and its functions

22 were performed by a Crisis Staff? Could it, the Crisis Staff, issue

23 directions to the police?

24 A. Yes. In such instances, of course, the municipal assembly ceased

25 to function, the Crisis Staff assumes all its duties, and the Crisis Staff

Page 18216

1 has more jurisdiction, more competences, over other bodies, that is, and

2 it can have its say in army or police matters too.

3 Q. Was the chief of police a member of the Crisis Staff?

4 A. Yes. Ex officio, his office makes him automatically a member of

5 the Crisis Staff.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. Of the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Kotor Varos and all the

8 other municipalities.

9 Q. All right. I now want just to follow some of the events through

10 the documents until the takeover. Could you be shown, please, Exhibit

11 P2149? This is a report signed by someone who appears to have been a

12 police operative of sorts, in which he talks about the security situation

13 in the Vrbanjci village, where he says that individuals of Muslim

14 background, armed and dressed in camouflage uniforms, have been seen

15 gathering in houses, 60 of these armed individuals, members of the Green

16 Berets, they increase activity when they patrol the village, that it's

17 spreading anxiety and fear amongst citizens of Serbian ethnicity, and

18 because of this, a large number of able-bodied Serbian citizens have come

19 to Maslovare to seek help in the form of protection and weapons so as to

20 be able to put up an adequate resistance to the extremist citizens and the

21 fact that yesterday, and this is dated the 19th of May, at around 2330

22 hours, armed clashes broke out between Muslim extremists and citizens of

23 Serbian background in the village of Sakan. No one was injured and then

24 it goes on to say that women and children of Vrbanjci and surrounding

25 villages have moved to nearby Serbian villages. And it's a request to arm

Page 18217

1 the able-bodied inhabitants of Vrbanjci. And there is a proposal for an

2 use of a special unit.

3 First of all, do you know anything about these incidents that are

4 being described apparently in these -- in this report?

5 A. I can claim under full responsibility that these incidents did not

6 take place, because as a deputy commander, I would have known about it,

7 since I was informed and participated in the solution of all the incidents

8 that had been happening until then, that is gunfire and all the rest, and

9 just as I was informed about them I would have been informed about this

10 and I once again say under full responsibility that these things did not

11 take place except for the patrols and the guards around villages and

12 neighbourhood communities, but without any uniforms, in civilian clothes,

13 there was not a single formation which could get through or be armed and

14 behave in that way. It would have been recorded somewhere in the media or

15 somewhere because that would have been an event which would have

16 necessitated solution and tackling but no such things, rapes or such

17 problems simply did not happen, and all those burials and everything else,

18 now I'm repeating, under full responsibility, that it did not happen

19 because the public would have known about it and we in the police too.

20 Q. All right. They propose the so-called special unit from Banja

21 Luka come down to Kotor Varos. Were you aware of this so-called special

22 unit?

23 A. I was, yes. Every public security centre has its special unit.

24 We in Kotor Varos had such a unit which was called a manoeuvreing unit and

25 at the level of the public security station, there is a special unit

Page 18218

1 bringing together police members from all the municipalities and that unit

2 is naturally used when there is a serious disruption of public law and

3 order, or some other excesses, when they happened, some major conflicts or

4 wars, on such occasions, in such instances, the heads of public security

5 centres are authorised to use such units but such units never came to

6 Kotor Varos.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. That's all I'm going to ask you about that

8 document. There is a --

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, there is another document dated the

10 next day but -- which is 2150 but it refers to the same thing effectively.

11 Yes.

12 Q. Now, can you look, please, at Exhibit P12 -- sorry, can I just

13 check?

14 A. My apologies, Your Honours but may I add something to what I just

15 said, all the excesses which happened in the municipality of Kotor Varos

16 were recorded and discussed by the municipal assembly, so that this

17 incident would have been recorded and put on the agenda and discussed like

18 all the other problems.


20 Q. Now, can you look, please, as Exhibit P1250? This is another one

21 of these reports dated the 8th of June, which refers to Kotor Varos at the

22 end of the first paragraph. For now, Kotor Varos and Banja Luka are the

23 only areas where there has been no operation to return weapons or mop up

24 the ground of Green Berets and HOS members.

25 Now, had you been made aware, Mr. Sadikovic, of the call or the

Page 18219

1 order to disarm that had been issued by the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

2 A. No. I'm not aware of that. And I claim under full responsibility

3 that the municipality of Kotor Varos, there were no members of HOS or the

4 Green Berets. It was simply used by Serbs where Bosniaks lived, the Serbs

5 said that there were Green Berets and where Croats lived, they said that

6 they had HOS there. But I am saying that there was not a single

7 formation, either belonging to the Green Berets or the HOS before or in

8 the course of the aggression. Later on, there was the self-organisation

9 and all the rest but no formations, there has never been HOS, there's

10 never been any Green Berets. There was only the Territorial Defence of

11 Kotor Varos.

12 Q. All right. Then we see the recommendation, we possess firm

13 evidence that there are Green Beret units in the area of Vrbanja, Kotor

14 Varos municipality. I'm not sure where that is. Whereabouts is that,

15 sir? Or is that meant to be Vrbanjci?

16 A. Vrbanjci is about 7 kilometres from Kotor Varos, from the centre,

17 if you take the main road, Banja Luka-Kotor Varos-Teslic-Doboj. It's

18 about 7 kilometres away. It's a large neighbourhood community which was

19 economically quite well-standing because a large number of people were

20 migrant workers abroad and because of the Serb propaganda they frequently

21 brought up Vrbanjci and even if their written propaganda, they were saying

22 that a Muslim and Croat police stations would be set up, that some

23 authorities would be set up and so on and so forth but this never

24 happened. It was simply propaganda because it was an economically strong

25 area and there was a rather large concentration of Muslim and Croats and

Page 18220

1 they were afraid of that area and that is why they mentioned the area

2 frequently in their propaganda, however offering no proof of what they

3 were saying.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I think it's because of the way it's been

5 translated. If one looks at it, it's clearly Vrbanjci, if one looks at

6 the original.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


9 Q. "We recommend urgent action against these areas for the purpose of

10 returning weapons and getting rid of extremists." That's dated the 8th of

11 June.

12 If you please now look at P234, which is the next day, by the same

13 operative. P234, please?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment in the previous document,

15 it should not be "we recommend." The original says: "We suggest."

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


19 Q. 9th of June, Milos: "Following our proposal and the proposals of

20 others, the SDS is due to start an operation soon with the aim of taking

21 over power in Kotor Varos and settling the ethnic tensions in the Kotor

22 Varos SJB and other organs. While this operation is going on, individuals

23 who are in possession of unlicensed arms or those they have obtained from

24 the HDZ or the SDA should be handing these arms in. This operation should

25 be carried out in a synchronised manner with the help of the Banja Luka

Page 18221

1 CSB."

2 Now, had you, as a member of the SDA and a police officer,

3 supplied arms to other Bosniaks in Kotor Varos?

4 A. Your Honours, and I apologise for forgetting to address you as

5 Your Honours, I forgot my manners so please receive my apologies for it.

6 It is not that I do not respect you, I really respect you, and very much,

7 because you are doing a great deal, but I am saying, Your Honours, that I,

8 as a policeman or as a man outside of working hours, I never distributed

9 any weapons because I didn't have them. There were not only Serbs but

10 Muslims and Croats, that is those who were on the reserve force were

11 issued with such weapons but when -- there's exactly -- there was a list

12 of fellows and it wasn't me who distributed them. There was the order

13 from -- which came from Sarajevo, to arm the reserve -- members of the

14 reserve police force so that they were issued with weapons officially.

15 Just as the regulations said it should be done. So I didn't distribute

16 any personal weapons, the -- I didn't distribute any SDA weapons, and I

17 don't think, well I cannot really claim it under full responsibility, but

18 I don't think the HDZ did either. It was people themselves, because they

19 saw what had happened in Croatia and the number of people working abroad,

20 they realised it and they were buying weapons, paying for them with their

21 own money and they were also buying in Croatia on their way back in a

22 different way so they were also buying from Serbs in Banja Luka directly

23 and other places. The sale of these weapons was organised in open and of

24 course, there were smugglers and war profiteers who were obtaining those

25 weapons, selling them and reselling them. It wasn't easy to come by a

Page 18222

1 weapon, I have to tell you in Kotor Varos, or somebody else, you couldn't

2 do it, especially not in any adequate quantities. Perhaps you can smuggle

3 in a rifle or two in your car but to come by any major weapons there was

4 no way you could get into Kotor Varos bringing those because there were

5 controls and checkpoints. Now, individual arming of course there were

6 people who were involved in contraband, that they would bring in 2 -- 1,

7 2, 3 pieces, smuggling them in and then selling them but

8 nobody distributed any weapons, I did not do it and I don't think that the

9 HDZ did it either.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the question was had he or anybody

12 else supplied arms. I think the answer was no.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: We are going to be here for days.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: In actual fact I know exactly how you feel about it.

16 I felt the same until I realised basically that he was answering the next

17 and the next question. So that's why I kept him going.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's right. I would have asked the

19 next questions.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It is obvious. On the other hand, please, Witness,

21 slow down because I can notice that you are making it a little bit

22 difficult for the interpreters to catch up with the speed at which you're

23 talking. So please slow down a little bit. Thank you.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes.

25 Q. Thank you, sir, that's all I want on that document. Can you now

Page 18223

1 be shown briefly P959? This is a document from the 1st Krajina Corps and

2 it's dated -- well it was the 8th of June and then somebody seems to have

3 added by hand, the 10th of June. In item 3, paragraph 3, situation on the

4 ground, there is intensive reconnaissance activity and attempts at

5 organising an uprising of the Muslim population outside the conflict

6 areas, particularly in Gradiska and Kotor Varos. Now, was there any

7 attempt to your knowledge to organise a full-scale, armed uprising of the

8 Muslim population?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And we are talking of the 10th of June or

10 thereabouts.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no. I would have

12 known about such organisation, right up until the 11th of June, there was

13 nothing. We stayed there and I was performing my duties normally. I was

14 even to be the -- on duty on the night between the 10th and 11th of June

15 but because it was Bajram and that is a major Bosniak holiday, that is a

16 major Islamic holiday, I had asked Anto Pranjic, my colleague, to replace

17 me, that is to be on duty that day, so I was working until the very last

18 day, until the very last moment, that is I should have been but I wasn't.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to ask you now about what happened

20 on the day of the takeover so you can -- the usher can take the document

21 back from you.

22 A. That day, that is that morning, I was in front of the mosque in my

23 neighbourhood, that is in my street, in Donji Varos. I didn't go for a

24 prayer because I thought I'd visit all the mosques and I'd see some people

25 and so on. However, sometime around half past 4.00 or rather sometime

Page 18224

1 between half past 4.00 and five past 5.00, I heard a moving column of

2 motor vehicles, a sizeable one, moving from the direction of Banja Luka.

3 I assumed that it was a column bringing forces to take over the power,

4 because -- I'd like to mention incidentally that people often talked how

5 power would be taken over and then people would come up with the dates,

6 but nothing ever happened on those dates, I don't know why. So that I --

7 that evening I had also heard that story that there would be the takeover

8 but I paid no attention because I thought it would be just like all those

9 dates that were mentioned earlier. But that morning, I realised it, and I

10 hid behind a house near the mosque and they passed by and I realised that

11 the day has come -- had come, and the column was -- so in front of the

12 column was a police official vehicle, followed by an APC, or some army

13 vehicle, and then two or three jeeps, and then followed by two or three

14 buses -- I'm not quite sure about that -- with, I suppose, a special unit

15 and then finally followed by an armour combat vehicle. They stopped for a

16 while near the mosque and then they went on towards the centre of the

17 town.

18 Q. Can you pause for a moment?

19 A. There was attempt to --

20 Q. I'm going to ask you if you could have, please, the map with the

21 photographs -- I'm not sure -- which has already been exhibited, P2123.

22 Sir, just before we look at the actual map, I can assure you, Your

23 Honours, that he doesn't speak English. He's got everything marked on it.

24 Can you just tell us for the photographs, can you identify what

25 photographs 2 and 3 are?

Page 18225

1 A. This is the police station where I worked, number 3 is -- it's the

2 factory, but I'm not sure about this. I think it's one of the halls in

3 the sawmill in Kotor Varos.

4 Q. All right. Don't worry about that, but number 2 is the police

5 station in which you worked. And can you identify what number --

6 photograph number 6 --

7 A. And this below it is a factory hall after all.

8 Q. Okay. And number 6, can you identify? Don't worry if you can't.

9 It's not important.

10 A. I am not 100 per cent certain, so I would not like to be venturing

11 a guess here.

12 Q. Okay. Can we go --

13 A. Really not sure.

14 Q. Can we go back to the town plan? Can you indicate to us from

15 which direction the convoy, as it were, came from?

16 A. From the direction of Banja Luka and Celinac. This is Donji Varos

17 and the mosque, I believe, is around here, yes, right here. They passed

18 here, the convoy came from there and they passed through here down this

19 street towards the centre.

20 Q. Right. Thank you. And you were, you say, standing in Donji

21 Varos, near the mosque?

22 A. Yes, that's correct, near the mosque, at a bridge.

23 Q. Thank you. Yes, you can put the map away now. All right, sir,

24 you saw this convoy arrive. As it was the religious holiday of Bajram,

25 were most of the Muslims at the mosque?

Page 18226

1 A. Well, most of the Muslims were at the mosque, but there were a

2 number of different mosques in different locations too.

3 Q. All right. So what did you do when you saw this convoy arrive?

4 A. Well, first, I kept one of the armed boys from doing anything [as

5 interpreted], then I entered the mosque, and I addressed the people

6 praying there, my neighbours, friends and the people there, I told them

7 that there would be no prayer because a convoy had entered Kotor Varos,

8 and the war had broken out. I said it was inevitable that there would be

9 a takeover. I told them to disperse, and whoever felt unsafe staying in

10 town should leave and get on their way, I said. And those who wanted to

11 stay could stay. It was up to them, I said, to decide whether they felt

12 safer inside or outside the town. I wished them all the best, obviously.

13 Q. So what did you personally do?

14 A. I left immediately. I went to my house. I spoke to my brother

15 and told him to join me. I took some clothes, a backpack, which I filled

16 with food, medicines and some ammunition. I took my rifle, the rifle that

17 I'd signed for officially, and together with some neighbours, I set out

18 for Ravne, an area between four and five kilometres away from Donji Varos,

19 across the Vrbanja river.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 48, line 25, I think what he said was he kept

22 one of the armed boys from firing a shot or shooting or something like

23 that rather than doing anything. I believe that's what was said.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What we'd like to know, witness, whether you

25 said I kept one of the armed boys from doing anything or I kept one of the

Page 18227

1 armed boys from firing a shot? The question of interpretation -- of

2 translation that you need to clear up for us.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I prevented that young

4 man from using that weapon, from firing. I was trying to prevent an

5 incident.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Korner?

7 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

8 Q. Now, you said that you set out for Ravne and can you just have for

9 a moment again the map P2120? Can we see Ravne in -- yes, you're just

10 pointing to it at the top left of the map.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. The River Vrbanja, yes.

14 Q. In a moment I'm going to ask you to look at a video of the area

15 and we can see not Ravne itself but at least the landscape. All right.

16 Now, you set off for Ravne, did you go anywhere before you got to Ravne?

17 A. Your Honours, no. I didn't. I went straight to Ravne.

18 Q. And did Mr. Djikic, the President of the SDA, amongst others, go

19 with you?

20 A. Yes. He did. Haza Djikic [phoen] was also at the mosque. He was

21 about to pray for the Bajram prayer. He had a flat in Carsija but his

22 mother is a neighbour of mine, so every Bajram he'd visit his mother and

23 pray near Donji Varos near where she lived. So that's why he was at the

24 mosque that day. He was in two minds whether to join us or not, probably

25 because his wife and two daughters had remained in the flat in Carsija,

Page 18228

1 but his cousin, Senad Djikic told him you must come with us, there is

2 nothing for you to ponder, you must not say. So he joined us eventually

3 but he was very much in two minds and I think it was his cousin's

4 influence that decided it for him.

5 Q. All right. Now, I think you set up, as it were, your headquarters

6 or centre of operations in Ravne but did you visit other villages around

7 this period of time on the 11th of June?

8 A. Your Honours, I didn't set up headquarters right away. That was

9 several days later. I went to the neighbouring village, Vranica. I knew

10 people there and I went to see them, to tell them about what had happened

11 in Kotor Varos, in Carsija. I arrived in the village, some young men were

12 there on the football pitch preparing for a traditional Bajram tournament,

13 a traditional local tournament which was the usual thing to do around that

14 time in the region and the teams were preparing for the tournament. Well

15 you know the atmosphere, holiday atmosphere. I told the boys that the

16 tournament would not take place. I told about what had happened and I

17 asked them to please take it seriously. I told them what the situation

18 was and to set up guards immediately around the village and to be on their

19 guard. To take things seriously because hard times were coming, I said.

20 Q. All right. Now, once you were in Ravne, were you joined by other

21 people?

22 A. Yes. When the forces entered Carsija, a number of people for

23 their own reasons, for reasons of their own personal safety, came over,

24 obviously some of them had family there, some may have been born there,

25 but had a house in town. For example, Suljo, a neighbour of mine who was

Page 18229

1 from Ravne, he had a house in Donji Varos but he left the house with his

2 wife and daughter and came to his father's place in Ravne. There were

3 many cases like his.

4 Q. Now, did the Serbs themselves send any kind of troops or police to

5 Ravne?

6 A. No. No. They didn't send any kind of troops. I know this for a

7 fact. People who had arrived from Donji Varos told me this. They told me

8 that 15 or 20 minutes after I'd left the house, my house was surrounded by

9 members of the special unit, but they didn't send any of the police or

10 military troops. They did send over certain people to negotiate,

11 messengers from the Crisis Staff, from Carsija, those people came to Ravne

12 and I personally talked to one of them Karin Dizdar [phoen], who, at the

13 beginning as a Muslim was a member of the Crisis Staff. That was at the

14 beginning. I'm not sure if there were any other Muslims who were members

15 of the Crisis Staff. This only lasted for a very brief while so they

16 didn't send any units or troops, they sent civilians to negotiate.

17 Q. All right. Now, eventually, did -- was there a group with you as

18 the head that formed the resistance in Kotor Varos?

19 A. This group was set up on that day. That's when we started setting

20 it up but prior to that, there was nothing, no unit, no formation like

21 that. It was from that day on, following the takeover, that's when

22 certain people started organising themselves, people I knew, my friends,

23 approached me, and we used this group to set up our headquarters, and

24 people suggested that I should become the commander of that staff, and

25 that was a Territorial Defence of Kotor Varos municipality. That's how we

Page 18230

1 referred to it. It was made up of Muslims and Croats, according to the

2 different localities that were represented in the body so that's how this

3 body worked roughly.

4 Q. All right. Before we go into the details of that, I'd like you,

5 please, to have a look at a video of the area and just identify certain

6 landmarks, if you can.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is part of Mr. Inayat's long video

8 and we've split a segment and I think, I hope, the audiovisual unit have

9 it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think they have it because it was already on the

11 monitor a minute ago.

12 MS. KORNER: It's very dark.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I suggest you put it on video evidence. It's

14 much better.

15 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

16 Q. Sir I'm just going to ask you to stop if you recognise landmarks.

17 Can you tell us what that is. Can you stop the video, please, what we're

18 looking at?

19 [Videotape played]

20 A. Your Honours, I would just like to ask a question. Am I speaking

21 any slower now? Is this better? Is it slower than it used to be, before

22 I start answering the question.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you're doing fine. Thank you.


25 Q. Okay, Mr. Sadikovic, do you recognise that building? If you

Page 18231

1 don't, say so straight away.

2 A. I believe this is Donji Varos, Vrbanja to the left, and this to

3 the right, this is the asphalt road. I think this is a place, one of the

4 halls, factory halls in Donji Varos. Can we just zoom in a little? Just

5 to make sure this is not the mosque? Because if there is a mosque there,

6 then it's Vrbanjci. This white building here.

7 Q. All right. I'm not sure, we'll have to see what the camera man,

8 mainly Mr. Inayat, did. Continue, playing, please?

9 [Videotape played]


11 Q. And the answer is not really.

12 A. I believe this is Vrbanjci, the school building and the

13 surrounding buildings, and the River Vrbanja over there. I think this is

14 the Vrbanjci local commune.

15 Q. Okay. Do you know what --

16 A. This is Vecici. This was after the aggression against Kotor

17 Varos, that's when the footage was taken, also part of Vrbanjci, of the

18 local commune of Vrbanjci. This is Vecici, the mosque in Vecici, the

19 minaret had been torn down and across the way from there, Grabovci and so

20 on.

21 Q. Can we stop and just go back a little bit because I think we've

22 missed the mosque. Mr. Sadikovic, if you can say stop when we can see the

23 mosque in the picture?

24 A. Stop. This is the mosque without the minaret, understandably,

25 because it had been torn down.

Page 18232

1 Q. Can you -- I know it's difficult, but we can't see your finger

2 pointing, regrettably, sir, can you just tell us roughly if we look at it,

3 whereabouts in the picture? Is it in the foreground?

4 A. This -- you can see the dome here, the copper dome.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I wonder if I may just be permitted to

6 go and see what he's pointing at.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps if we rewind a little bit more, I think it's

8 more visible.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a bit unclear but yes, you can

10 see it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Now let's go forward.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You've moved it. Here, this, stop.

14 We can just try to zoom in a little bit.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, can the camera or one of the cameras focus on

16 the witness and his monitor and then I ask him to point on the monitor

17 where he is seeing the mosque, please? I don't know if that is possible.

18 MS. KORNER: Unless -- is it that building at the back, we can see

19 a flat-roofed building, or what looks like a flat-roofed building,

20 carrying down the road that we can see in the foreground and just by the

21 trees? Is that what you're indicating? I wonder if the usher -- it's

22 probably easier if the usher goes and has a look and sees what he's

23 indicating at.

24 A. Yes, Your Honours, there is no minaret so this may be a bit

25 confusing but I know the place really well. Although you can't see it

Page 18233

1 clearly, here, this is the mosque, except without the tower, the minaret

2 which had been pulled down. There is only the dome left and parts of the

3 original mosque.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm seeing it and I have no doubt what he is

5 referring to.

6 MS. KORNER: Good, that's all right. In that case, if Your

7 Honours are all seeing it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman isn't.

9 MS. KORNER: I'm not sure I am either.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can leave your place, go next to the

11 witness and he will show you what he is pointing at.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, I thought it was that building.


14 MS. KORNER: Yes, all right. If we can continue playing the

15 video, please?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman, thank you, Ms. Korner.

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. If you can indicate, I know we don't see Ravne itself but roughly

20 where it was when you see the nearest place?

21 A. Let me tell you, this footage here shows Vrbanjci local commune.

22 This is at least ten kilometres away from Ravne. Therefore, I can

23 orientate myself on the road leading to Banja Luka. I could point it out

24 roughly but it's not in this footage because you can't see it here. There

25 is a great distance between the two places. The place we are showing

Page 18234

1 here, and Ravne. Ravne lies in the direction of Banja Luka heading out

2 towards Vrbanjci towards Casa [phoen] and the town to the left of the

3 Vrbanja river and above Gornji Varos between three and four kilometres

4 further on down the road from Donji Varos.

5 Q. Okay. Is it on -- is it in the hills itself?

6 A. No, no. I don't think so. I think we are still far off the mark.

7 This footage is showing the Vrbanjci local commune and then further down

8 towards Donji Varos, but in order for me to point out Ravne, you would

9 need to have some footage of the town itself. And then I could point it

10 out to you.

11 Q. Mind, never mind?

12 A. Or I could tell you how far it was from Donji Varos if at least we

13 had that, if we had the factory.

14 Q. Don't worry, just tell us what we are looking at, when you

15 recognise a landmark.

16 A. This is panoramic view of a section of the local commune of

17 Vrbanci. I think that's what most of your footage is showing. Well, this

18 is -- we are getting closer to the town itself. This is the urban area of

19 Kotor Varos. This is Carsija. This is a neighbourhood we refer to as

20 blocks. Here is the saw mill and there is Ravne over there. If we just

21 rewind the tape a little and then move it a little to the left, a bit more

22 to the left, please, stop here. Roughly speaking, Ravne, this hill side

23 over there, this is the River Vrbanja, this is Donji Varos, this is where

24 the river runs, to the left is the Kotor neighbourhood, Kukavica,

25 Duratovci, and then above that, that's where Ravne lies.

Page 18235

1 Q. All right. Thank you very much, I think that's all we need of the

2 video. Thank you. All right. Now, can we deal, please, with the setup

3 of your group of people who formed, as you put it, the TO of Kotor Varos?

4 How many people did you have under your command?

5 A. Let me tell you, the number kept growing as people were arriving,

6 as the situation developed in the town itself. Certain villages had

7 already handed over their weapons but the truce only lasted for a very

8 short time. They said that they wanted to do away with all the

9 extremists, the Green Berets, the Ustashas and the rest and that peaceful

10 people could continue to live peacefully as they had up to that point.

11 When people realised that certain villages had handed over their weapons

12 they left them alone for a while. They went to the centre they are were

13 moving about freely but after a certain period of time, they started

14 arresting people, beating people and all the rest. All the rest they did.

15 Now certain people realised they had made a mistake so they started

16 leaving their villages and local communes and they started joining us so

17 the number kept growing. The command itself consisted of a mixed group of

18 Croats and Muslims, Bosniaks. I was appointed commander, Goran Markovic

19 was my deputy, he was a Croat from Visevice. After the attack on

20 Visevice, he went to Koljane [phoen]. My assistant was Bandalo, Drago

21 from Bilice, and Puskaric. I can't remember his first name now. He was a

22 good friend of mine but right now I can't remember his first name. Later

23 on, the staff too, expanded and at one point included the local commanders

24 too who stayed in their villages. So later on the staff grew also and had

25 more members than originally.

Page 18236

1 Q. Pause there?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, and so that if Mr. Ackerman

3 wants to make use of it for cross-examination, the footage, Mr. Inayat's

4 footage, I know it has an exhibit number already, if you could perhaps

5 indicate just indicate --

6 MS. KORNER: It's part of P447.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's it. That's all. Thank you,

8 please proceed.


10 Q. All right. Sir, you had local commanders who stayed in their

11 village. Was there a strict command and control over all those villages?

12 In other words, did they have to follow your and your staff's orders?

13 A. Your Honours, naturally there was a respect but it was mostly

14 based on the patriotic, on human considerations. Those people by and

15 large knew me, who I was, what I was, what family I came from, what kind

16 of jobs I performed because in our area people always respected those

17 employed with the police or the military and so on and so forth. So

18 people respected me because of what I was, who I was, who my parents were

19 and what I did. So these people respected me, heeded and listened to me

20 but to talk about some chain of command, no, it was based on patriotism,

21 on purely human relations, of respects and appreciation.

22 Q. All right. Now, at its height, or rather at the strongest point,

23 how many people did you have directly in the village of Ravne working

24 under your command?

25 A. Your Honours, there were other villages too, not only Ravne. I

Page 18237

1 mostly stayed there, well if I may call it the command of the staff later

2 on I moved away, but when we add up all these villages, Doljani, Hadrovci,

3 Radici, Ravne, Duratovci, Sokoline, Visevice, Postolje, I'd say some 300

4 or 400 people were under my care. The village of Vecici, well, they were

5 reportedly on their own staff's command but they always held their own and

6 they didn't really operate quite properly. Then on the other side, Drago

7 was a local commander and because we couldn't communicate, because we

8 didn't have any communicating equipment or anything, we were physically

9 separated, you know, this is a huge territory, and especially Bilice,

10 Visevice where Drago was, we -- there was the town in between us, which

11 was controlled by the Serbs, and we held the village parts, and features

12 around the town. So that it wasn't all in one piece. There were about

13 three or four places where you could find larger number of people standing

14 guard and performing other work, you know, food and, well, you know.

15 Q. All right. Did you have any support in terms of manpower or arms

16 from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. Your Honours, unfortunately, I had absolutely nothing to do with

18 anyone. We were completely surrounded. Both in terms of information,

19 politics and everything else. And especially if you remember that Kotor

20 Varos is between Celinac, Skender Vakuf, Travnik and Teslic

21 municipalities, bearing that in mind we simply had no contact whatsoever.

22 We didn't even have electricity so we couldn't watch the television or

23 anything. So I even didn't have that possibility. I couldn't even learn

24 anything from television. And I wasn't really paying attention to what

25 was happening. Forget about communicating with somebody or helping.

Page 18238

1 But sometime in late June or early July, we heard that there was

2 a formation made of Croats and Muslims, a formation in Dubravci, or

3 rather, Travnik, that is we heard that it was Travnik and later on we

4 learned that its true place was Dubravci. Well, a certain number of guys

5 in that group couldn't wait because they had been told to go to Kotor

6 Varos to help us and so on and so forth but for some reason they never

7 came but that is well known and I realise that later. But a number of

8 guys disobeyed their command and they were so close and yet so far from

9 their families and of course they wanted to know what was going on and

10 they wanted to really know, find out what was happening to us just as we

11 didn't know what was happening to the rest of people in Bosanska Krajina

12 and Bosnia. And I thought that everybody had put up resistance in all the

13 other towns in Prijedor, Sanski Most and Kljuc and so on and so forth. So

14 we will see later on we'll come up with a solution but unfortunately that

15 was not the case but I didn't know at the time that we were the only ones

16 who were resisting. My apologies, Your Honours.

17 Q. You're going too fast.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You are running loose now again. Please slow down.

19 Thank you.


21 Q. All right. I think we got the general idea from that. Can I ask

22 you now about arms?

23 A. Your Honours, my apologies but you have to bear in mind that I

24 simply get too emotional and at times I simply can't control myself. My

25 apologies to Your Honours.

Page 18239

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 MS. KORNER: You're by no means the worst, I can assure you that

3 we have had here.

4 Q. Can I ask you now about arms? What sort of arms did you have in

5 weapons?

6 A. At that time, we had automatic weapons, the members of the reserve

7 force, for instance had them, and they in part joined the resistance and

8 we also had hunting weapons because we had our hunting society in Kotor

9 Varos. There was quite a number of hunters and people made their weapons,

10 they would take some pipings, pipes or tubes and make something -- some

11 sort of single-barrelled rifles or pistols or some makeshift -- a certain

12 number of our men had worked in Croatia and Slovenia, which made

13 explosives so when they came home to Kotor Varos, they brought those

14 back. So they made those devices. Or at times, they had bought the

15 original TNT from Serbs. They bought the so-called soaps [phoen] hundred

16 gram packages and used them to make bombs and so and so forth. But it was

17 all based and light infantry weapons and to my knowledge there were about

18 2, 53 [Realtime transcript read in error "54"] machines -- 2 and 53

19 machine guns and there were a couple of more machine guns in the reserve

20 force but otherwise it was all light infantry weapons perhaps a couple of

21 Osa's which were bought from the Serbs but unfortunately somebody had cut

22 off the cables so that they could not be activated.

23 Q. All right. I think we need to go back because what's come up is

24 2, 54 machines, I think you said two -- was it 2, 53 machine guns and is

25 53 the description?

Page 18240

1 A. Yes. Well, I think that that is the make. That is how we called

2 it. It was a Garonja and a Brno of Czech make.

3 Q. Did you have any hand-held rocket launchers?

4 A. We didn't have any hand-held launchers, not in the beginning. We

5 had zoljas, which is a smallish anti-armour device which is used to act

6 against armoured vehicles. We didn't have Osa's at that time. They were

7 larger and we later on we captured some of them and we captured more

8 machine guns, so that later on we had more machine guns, but this was

9 later brought, a group of guys who were in Travnik brought these --

10 brought one also to Vecici I heard that one also had me brought with three

11 or four charges but later on we captured mortars in combat [as

12 interpreted].

13 Q. Did you?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the word that he keeps saying that's

16 not making it into the transcript is Osa, O-S-A. That describes a

17 particular weapon.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, you have heard what Mr. Ackerman has just

19 remarked. Have you been mentioning Osa in which case can you explain to

20 us what it means?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I mentioned both zolja and

22 Osa. Zolja is a weapon used to destroy -- is an anti-armour weapon. I

23 think it's -- that it's calibre is smaller than that of Osa. And Osa is

24 similar but it's more powerful. It is a larger calibre. And I mentioned

25 both these types of weapons.

Page 18241

1 Q. Did you acquire any tanks or armoured personnel carriers?

2 A. Yes. Sometime in July, I think, I'm not sure, was it end of July

3 or beginning of August, in an infantry attack, the Serbs were using a tank

4 which broke in Vrbanjci, between Donji Vrbanjci and Zebe, roughly there,

5 so they left it to us. But it was malfunctioning. However, they had

6 mined it, removed all the anti -- all the weapons from it, and just left

7 it to us. We couldn't use it.

8 Q. All right. Did you have any functioning tanks working for you?

9 A. No, never, Your Honours.

10 Q. Or what about APCs?

11 A. No. I already said only light infantry weapons. That is what we

12 had. And that is how it was until the end.

13 Q. So just to confirm, did you have any long-range artillery?

14 A. No, we did not, never.

15 Q. You mentioned how you captured various weapons. Did you as a

16 group launch any offensive actions against the Serbs?

17 A. Let me tell you, Your Honours, we simply gave it no thought. We

18 were -- our purpose was to preserve the population, to safeguard it, to

19 keep the territory we had, to begin with we had no weapons for anything to

20 conduct any actions, we would have needed much more. However, the local

21 commanders would at times engage in some small operations or sabotage

22 activities in their areas. Personally, I was against it. And I was

23 against it because whenever an operation was conducted and the Serbs would

24 capture our innocent inhabitants, Croats and Bosniaks, in the town, those

25 who had signed a loyalty, and every time something like that happened they

Page 18242

1 would retaliate against the civilians and that is why I was against it and

2 I was saying that such operations should not be conducted that we should

3 agree what to do and later on we'd see.

4 Q. I want to look, please, with you, at the description from the

5 documents of various actions that took place during these months. Could

6 you have a look, first of all, please, at P2157? This is dated the 14th

7 of June of 1992, and it's from the 4th Light Infantry Brigade command and

8 it records after the cleansing of the town of Kotor Varos, a part of the

9 enemy forces and the Croatian and Muslim population escaped to the wider

10 area of the village of Hadrovci. Was that, as you understand it, a

11 reference to you?

12 A. Hadrovci, the village of Hadrovci.

13 Q. As you understand it, is that a reference to the area in which you

14 and your other colleagues were in?

15 A. Yes. Your Honours, it does refer to us. This is the place, and

16 it could be nobody else but us.

17 Q. Okay. Then the rest I think we can leave. Now, can you have a

18 look, please, at 2165, I think it is? This is an extract from the minutes

19 of the Crisis Staff held on the 22nd of June, which was attended by

20 Lieutenant Colonel Peulic. And he apparently said that a group of about

21 what he called 2.000 Ustasha were moving from central Bosnia as

22 reinforcements for Kotor Varos. Now, did you ever see sight or sound of

23 those 2.000 Ustasha, as they are described?

24 A. Your Honours, this is propaganda in which the Serbs in the area

25 engaged. I wish we had those formation there because we would have taken

Page 18243

1 Kotor Varos with their help.

2 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, can we look, please, at 217 -- P2177? This

3 is the bulletin of the Crisis Staff dated the 26th of June, and it refers

4 there in the second paragraph to this: Despite the fact that we are at

5 war with extremists who will not surrender until the last man, events are

6 unfolding to our advantage and our positions are better and better. The

7 enemy is leaderless and in disarray, experiencing heavy losses. Their

8 twin strong holds of Hrvacani and Bilica have been destroyed. Now, can I

9 ask you what you know about this destruction of these two villages?

10 A. Your Honours, as for Hrvacani, it was no strong licence hold. It

11 was just people who lived in their houses. No formations, nothing. That

12 was the first village that was attacked, shelled, and it happened

13 immediately on the 13th or the 14th, but it was the first village which

14 was publicly in front of everybody who could see it, was first razed to

15 the ground by the artillery, and people yet managed to pull out under all

16 those shells with minimum casualties. I think that six or eight

17 civilians, that's what I found later, who did not manage to pull out, but

18 the rest of the population pulled out and fled to the village of Cerkvisce

19 [phoen] because there they had their relatives and friends and then some

20 went to Hanifici and those who were younger went to Vecici and some of

21 them went to Ravne Hadrovci whether they had any family there. So I can

22 say under full responsibility that there were no formations in Hadrovci

23 that there was no strong hold that there were guards looking after that

24 territory but in Bilice, yes. There were considerable number of members.

25 There was Drago Bandalo, he was the local commander and there were also

Page 18244

1 people from -- from the town, who had joined there, people from Donji

2 Varos, from Kotoriste and some even from Banja Luka, a guy had turned up

3 there, he had either come to visit relations or whatever, and then

4 eventually ended up in Bilica so that in Bilica yes there was a

5 considerable number of members of the Territorial Defence but in Hrvacani

6 there was absolutely nothing. It was just people who lived there

7 normally, who worked there, and that they were shelled with large number

8 of shells, one could see it easily because the weather was fair and I was

9 looking through my binoculars from the position where I was, where I was

10 moving, and I could see how house after house were shelled. The bulk of

11 the shells went towards the minaret, that is the mosques. However, even

12 after two days of shelling they did not manage to destroy it. They

13 destroyed it later on when the infantry went in because then they planted

14 explosives there and managed to destroy it so that is how things unfolded

15 in Hrvacani but in Bilica so, so this is misinformation. Bilica did not

16 take [Realtime transcript read in error "fake"] it and members of the TO

17 were -- continued in Bilica and were there until the end. They were under

18 attack at times but they never left Bilica.

19 Q. On the screen it says Bilica did not fake it should be take it.

20 Very briefly, because there is a lot I need to cover still with you. What

21 was the purpose then as far as you could see, for attacking Hrvacani?

22 A. My personal opinion was that this was an attempt to demonstrate --

23 to give a demonstration of power, to show off, and to try to

24 psychologically, to produce a psychological effect to show people what

25 would happen if they didn't accept and sign loyalty to these authorities.

Page 18245

1 Q. Now we see in that same bulletin that the -- they are asserting

2 their control -- most of the municipality's territory except for the area

3 to the left of the River Vrbanja from Vecici to Ravne. Enemy forces are

4 currently in that area but they are encircled and under constant fire.

5 Among their ranks they have many wounded and their food reserves are at an

6 end. Yet despite this on the 25th of June the enemy extremists led by

7 Spasa [phoen] and Sadikovic carried out a planned and well-coordinated

8 attack on three places simultaneously, Vrbanjci, Revici [phoen] and Kotor.

9 They suffered a terrible defeat with heavy losses. Now that asserts

10 that you carried out a planned and well-coordinated attack. What do you

11 say about that assertion?

12 A. Your Honours, I have already answered this, and once again under

13 full responsibility, I claim that no counterattack or rather a planned

14 attack was launched from our side, because that is how our positions were.

15 We have -- we didn't have the wherewithal. We wanted merely -- our

16 purpose was to protect the population, to defend them and then see what

17 would happen. This is just propaganda which they were carrying out.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sadikovic, the Prosecution hasn't got much time

19 to finish her examination-in-chief. And you would be helping her very

20 much if you contained your answers a little bit. In other words to be

21 shorter.

22 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: In your answers, thank you.

24 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour, I mean -- I will finish I

25 have no doubt about that but it does help.

Page 18246

1 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. That's all I want to ask you. Can

2 you look, now, please at P --

3 A. Very well, Your Honours. I will do my best to try to cut my

4 answers shorter. My apologies to you.

5 Q. P2188, please. This is a report, Mr. Sadikovic, on the death of

6 Lieutenant Colonel Stevilovic, who was the head of security for the 1st

7 Krajina Corps, who apparently was killed in an ambush on the 5th of July.

8 Did you or your group have anything to do with that?

9 A. Your Honours, personally, I had nothing to do with that action.

10 Two or three days -- two or three days later, though, I heard about it and

11 I was told the story by Stipo Maric so he was one of the local commanders

12 who had a group and he -- who was slightly mischievous, if a good man, and

13 who conducted this action. He always roamed around. I mean he just

14 couldn't stay in one place. So I knew that that action was conducted but

15 I didn't know about it then. I learned about it two or three days later.

16 Q. Did you give any orders for any such ambush?

17 A. Your Honours, I've already said it. I wasn't even aware of it,

18 let alone issued the order. I learned about it only two or three days

19 after it had happened.

20 Q. All right. Just one moment. Yes. Your Honour, perhaps we could

21 break there because I want to show Mr. Sadikovic that video of the Kotor

22 Varos, because we've reached that point.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's have a 25 minute break starting

24 from now. Thank you.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

Page 18247

1 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

2 MS. KORNER: Just before we play the video, can I ask you, please,

3 to look at one more document, very briefly, P2217?

4 Q. This again is another one of these bulletins of the War

5 Presidency. It states at the beginning that the Serbs armed themselves in

6 any way they could, they did not have foreign support in this, unlike the

7 other two ethnic groups which struggled to subjugate, expel or destroy

8 them. Short answers, please, Mr. Sadikovic. Did your -- did the Bosniaks

9 in Kotor Varos have foreign support to arm themselves? It can be answered

10 yes or no, I feel.

11 A. No, Your Honours.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you and the other Bosniaks intend to subjugate,

13 expel or destroy the Serbs in Kotor Varos?

14 A. No, never.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. Now I want you please to look at the video

16 which has already been exhibited at P510 --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: While that is being prepared Ms. Korner in one of

18 his statements he also mentions that -- about possible help, or money or

19 weapons from SDA. Perhaps you could direct that question to him.

20 MS. KORNER: I think I already asked him about the SDA but --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I don't recall that.

22 MS. KORNER: If Your Honour can tell me which page of which

23 statement you're looking at?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, Ms. Korner, there are three statements

25 and I wouldn't know exactly which one but -- you can put the question

Page 18248

1 whether his group or resistance group --

2 MS. KORNER: I thought I did but I'll ask it again, Your Honour.

3 Q. Did your group, sir, receive any assistance, financial or by way

4 of weaponry, from the SDA party?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the last -- the last statement, the one of 10th

6 March, 2001, the last page. Go ahead. Can I ask you? Can you answer the

7 question, please, Mr. Sadikovic?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I can. We

9 never, to the best of my knowledge, and I would have known had there been

10 any form of support, financial or by way of weaponry from the SDA. There

11 was never anything like that. It was just Serb propaganda going on all

12 the time. There was no such thing happening. Had this been the case,

13 things would have turned out differently, I believe.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you.

15 Q. So, you -- I think before we start playing the video, and there is

16 a transcript, Your Honours, of this, I'm sorry, at -- it's in the bundle

17 at -- I just passed it actually, when I was -- yes. It's P510. It's the

18 same as the video, and it's in the bundle at -- in my bundle, divider 16.

19 It comes after P2155.

20 Q. Sir, I think this is right, although you haven't yourself watched

21 this video, in 1994, once you'd left Kotor Varos, did you see a film of

22 news -- of a news report from Banja Luka Television?

23 A. Yes, Your Honours. In 1994, I left on official business. I was

24 in Croatia, Slovenia, Austria and Germany, and our citizens who lived over

25 there informed me about the tape that they had recorded, because obviously

Page 18249

1 they were interested in knowing what was happening with us down there. It

2 was satellite footage and they recorded this on a tape, news from Banja

3 Luka TV, about events in Kotor Varos. So I did have occasion to see that

4 tape back in 1994.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you.

6 MS. KORNER: If we now play the tape, then I'll stop and ask you

7 various questions.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MS. KORNER: Sound? That's it, yes. I can't hear any sound.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. It's -- what I am seeing on my

11 screen -- now it's changed. What I was seeing on my screen was the

12 previous video.

13 MS. KORNER: It's all part of the same video. It goes into the

14 news.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But Madam Chuqing already had the footage that you

16 would now be referring -- while I was --

17 THE REGISTRAR: That was the -- and this -- in computer evidence

18 channel, and then the previous video, it is on video evidence.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, it is --

20 MS. KORNER: We are playing it on the computer but I'm told by

21 Ms. Gustin that we don't control the sound so we are not getting any

22 sound. Can we try playing it again? I don't know whether the --

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. KORNER: No. All right. I don't -- we've actually played

25 this video before. There is -- the exhibit is the actual video but I

Page 18250

1 think we will just go on. Otherwise, it will waste time.

2 Q. So, did -- first of all, is this, looking at this beginning bit,

3 is this the bit that you saw -- I'm sorry -- is this the video you saw in

4 1994? Or do you need to see more of it before you can tell us?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sadikovic?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's the same

7 tape that I saw, the same footage. And I'm familiar with the content of

8 this particular tape so I don't think there is any real need for us to

9 play the tape on.


11 Q. Yes, but I want to ask you to look at parts of it because I want

12 to see if you can tell us if you can date it? Can we go on even though

13 it's silent?

14 [Videotape played]

15 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we just move on to the first --

16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Only a few kilometres from Kotor

17 Varos are concealed house, Muslim extremists waited, hidden in ambushes

18 and treacherously and perfidiously opened fire on the army and police

19 troops [as interpreted]. In this perfidious attack one person was killed

20 and a number of specials and soldiers wounded. Today, Captain Slobodan

21 Zupljanin is also in the Banja Luka hospital. We first went to visit

22 Captain Zupljanin who is currently recovering here.

23 Captain Zupljanin: To be quite frank, I suppose that it could

24 happen.

25 MS. KORNER: Pause there.

Page 18251

1 Q. Did you know Captain Slobodan Zupljanin?

2 A. Yes, Your Honours, I did know him personally, yes.

3 Q. All right. Carry on.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] But we never expected it at that

6 place because the place we were to go to we were to meet at is much better

7 for an ambush so that it came as a surprise. I'm aware, though, after all

8 the situations in the west Slavonian theatre of war from which I had come,

9 that the enemy will resort to any method, any means, any way, to destroy

10 and liquidate us systematically step by step.

11 Reporter: I repeat, this is not all that important either for

12 Europe or the world but for ourselves to know who we are dealing with and

13 to know who is waging war against us.

14 MS. KORNER: Pause.

15 Q. Do you know who that was? I mean I know it gives his name but did

16 you know him, Mr. Stevandic or had you seen him before?

17 A. No, no, Your Honours.

18 Q. All right. Can we move on, then, please?

19 A. No, Your Honours. I don't know this person. This was the first

20 time I saw him on this tape.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Because all we can do is either win

23 or vanish. Anyone else's victory would unquestionably mean that we would

24 vanish and become extinct as a people.

25 Reporter: Goran Tunic, a member of the special police detachment

Page 18252

1 from Banja Luka was also seriously wounded yesterday.

2 Tunic: There can be no more negotiations with them. They seem to

3 recognise only the language of arms and that is how we should respond to

4 them.

5 Reporter Branko: They do it to their own and what they are

6 prepared to do to others they show us day in and day out.

7 Banja Luka television announcer: It is high time for you to part

8 company with the extremists who endanger their lives -- saying terror.

9 And we call on you to drive out any extreme individuals who have come to

10 your villages as your villages could go up in flames because of them. In

11 particular, we call upon the Muslim people not to be duped by Croat

12 extremists who push Muslims in front of them to kill Serbs. You must

13 realise that Croatian policy uses the Muslims in pursuit of its goal.

14 Citizens go back to your homes, hand over your weapons and once and for

15 all leave the extremists who wish neither you nor your children well. To

16 all those who return their weapons, we guarantee absolute safety of their

17 property and person says the appeal of the Kotor Varos Crisis Staff.

18 Reporter Lagitak: Are under the control of Muslim and Croat

19 extremists, the chief organisers of resistance in these villages are the

20 notorious criminals --

21 MS. KORNER: Stop, I'm sorry, can we go back for a moment? No, to

22 just the part before, sorry.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Are under the control of Muslim and

25 Croat extremists. The chief organisers of resistance --

Page 18253

1 MS. KORNER: Pause, please. Right.

2 Q. Sir, looking at that, I don't know whether that's meant to be

3 Muslims or Serbs. Are you able to say?

4 A. Your Honours, I'm afraid I haven't quite understood the question.

5 Q. There is a picture of two people apparently in uniform holding a

6 weapon. And they are talking, the commentator is talking about Muslim and

7 Croat extremists. Are you able to tell us whether those are Serb

8 soldiers, Muslims or Croats?

9 A. Your Honours, I can state under full responsibility that these are

10 Serb soldiers because neither the Croats nor ourselves had this.

11 Q. And what's the weapon?

12 A. In my opinion, it's some kind of a rocket or a mortar but it

13 certainly is an artillery weapon of a rather large calibre.

14 Q. Carry on.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Muhamed Debic [phoen] and Muhamed

17 Sadikovic, they have many wounded in their ranks and they are running out

18 of food. Vrbanjci, a recent Ustasha stronghold is now firmly in the hands

19 of the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. On this

20 occasion I want to point out that we have met with outstanding cooperation

21 even among those people but unfortunately, our experience in two villages

22 where we managed to reach an understand was that units of the interior

23 ministry of the Serbian Republic of Krajina and members of my unit were

24 fired on from these villages so that we had to respond appropriately.

25 Reporter: Mr. Brdjanin, tell us, why did you come and how do you

Page 18254

1 see the latest developments in the Kotor Varos municipality?

2 Mr. Brdjanin: Let me tell you my duty as the president of the

3 Crisis Staff of the autonomous region is to visit all the fronts. I must

4 admit most of the time I was in the corridor leading to Serbia but simply

5 my visit, the reason for my coming here is that every Monday I must inform

6 the presidents of Crisis Staffs about the political situation in this

7 area. We must clean up our area which unquestionably includes Kotor Varos

8 and Jajce and the most important battle which is under way and which I

9 attended yesterday is the break through to Serbia. Simply, we can see for

10 ourselves that there can be no more negotiations with those waging war

11 against us. Those who took up arms must be defeated, hand them over and

12 total Serb authority must rule here.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you, that's all I need of the video.

14 Q. Sir, the only other question I have, Mr. Sadikovic, about it, is

15 this: Can you tell us roughly when this film must have been shot?

16 Because we don't have a date.

17 A. Your Honours, I believe this was the end of June or early July,

18 1992.

19 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, that's all I need on that.

20 Q. Now, very quickly, can we look please at document P2001? This is

21 a 1st Krajina Corps report dated the 17th of August, and in paragraph 3,

22 it states that following a sabotage attack on a minibus in the area of

23 Kotor Varos in which 13 of our soldiers were killed, the light Infantry

24 Brigade from Celinac decided to take its revenge on the Muslim population

25 around Celinac. Don't concern yourself with what happened in Celinac but

Page 18255

1 do you know what this refers to, the sabotage attack on a minibus?

2 A. Your Honours, I believe this refers to attacks carried out by a

3 local group from Vecici who had carried out reconnaissance and monitored

4 the movements of those vehicles. They knew that another unit was taking

5 over shift and they knew that they were soldiers on that minibus, not

6 civilians, that's at least what I heard later. And that's when and where

7 the action was carried out. In the Vrbanjci area. That's my opinion. I

8 believe that's what it refers to.

9 Q. Did -- we've seen the map. Did you have any control or authority

10 over the events in Vecici or in the other areas, Muslim areas, of Kotor

11 Varos which were the, as it were, the other side of the town from where

12 you were?

13 A. Your Honours, as I've said before, I had no physical control

14 because I was physically distant from this area. These were two or three

15 distinct different areas. I could not physically be there. So in the

16 early days, it was the local commanders who carried out those actions.

17 This whole time I opposed those actions because there would always be

18 retaliation as people from those areas were telling us. That's why I

19 opposed this kind of attack, even against soldiers. That was the reason I

20 was against it.

21 Q. Right. Thank you. If you have 2239, please, now? And we'll see

22 what you've just been telling us reflected in that report of the same date

23 as the earlier one. This is another report, the 1st Krajina Corps, dated

24 the 17th of August, to the main staff. If you go to paragraph 4, there is

25 two paragraphs 4, in fact, but the situation in the territory, there is a

Page 18256

1 very complex situation in the territory, in the general Kotor Varos area,

2 Muslim Croat extremist groups operating, constantly sending in groups from

3 the Siprage village area and the general area of Zebe [phoen], which are

4 inflecting serious losses on our units in ambush operations. Before I

5 move to the next line, were those two villages, as we can see from the

6 map, the other side of Kotor Varos from which you were?

7 A. Yes. Siprage, the village actually, it's a local commune,

8 including a number of villages, it's about 18 to 20 kilometres from where

9 I was. And it's closer to Travnik. Our territory, that part of the local

10 commune borders on Travnik municipality. So I had no contact or

11 communication with that part of Kotor Varos municipality.

12 Q. And then we see that it's reported that amongst the troops there

13 is an ever-growing desire for revenge against the Muslim and Croat

14 population, particularly against those who have buried members in their

15 families. All right. Thank you, you can put that one aside.

16 Can we now move, please, to part of the Exhibit 2248? It's the

17 document -- it's the 71st meeting of the War Presidency. There is two

18 documents contained in this exhibit. Actually I think it's one document

19 in B/C/S.

20 This is -- could you look at the one that's on the back? It's the

21 71st meeting, I hope. And in item number 2, it states that there was

22 contact made by representatives of the village of Hadrovci with the

23 command of a company in Vagani who wanted to hand over weapons in exchange

24 for a guarantee of their safety. And this is dated the 3rd of September.

25 Do you remember any negotiations like this?

Page 18257

1 A. I remember, let me tell you, but I found out later from a local

2 commander again, this is proof that I had no control over the whole

3 territory. People play games. Some villages met, now were those

4 informers, Serb informers or whatever, but those people without my

5 knowledge, even without telling the local commander who was there, it may

6 have been a group of two, three, four or five people from the village, so

7 without informing their local commander, they went to negotiate with the

8 Serbs, whether for fear, maybe they were afraid that they had made a

9 mistake or something but to be honest I didn't know about it. I only

10 found out later this could have given rise to serious difficulties among

11 those people there. So when the local commander told me, I tried to calm

12 the whole situation down. I tried to understand those people and tried to

13 keep conflict from breaking out between those and the villagers.

14 Q. All right. Thank you.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours perhaps without showing it to the

16 witness, two -- P2249 shows that apparently the negotiations referred to

17 came to nothing. It's the meeting on the 6th of September. And the army

18 will be put into action as planned.

19 Q. Now, sir, there is a report which again I'm not going to show you,

20 P2250, from this man Milos, dated the 7th of September which stated that

21 the enemy formations in Kotor Varos area number about 3.000 members who

22 are mainly positioned in the hills. Can I just ask you this: I know

23 you've told us how many people you had. Would that -- your number plus

24 the Croats that you knew of amount to 3.000 people? Resisters?

25 A. Let me tell you, it's a far cry from the real situation on the

Page 18258

1 ground. I wouldn't say there were as many as 1.000 people, including all

2 the Muslims and Croats and the kitchen and everything -- everybody else.

3 I wouldn't say there were as many as 1.000, let alone 3.000.

4 Q. Thank you. All right could you have a look now please at Exhibit

5 2256? And could you be given at the same time or have ready 2257? This

6 is a War Presidency meeting of the 17th of September, attended by

7 presumably Slobodan Zupljanin, ah, yes, Captain First Class, briefing the

8 War Presidency on the situation, no significant operations but an all-out

9 attack on Vrbanjci took place in the morning, a village was also attacked

10 and set alight and the people who happened to be there were most probably

11 killed.

12 Now, were you aware of that attack at the time that it happened?

13 A. Let me tell you, Your Honours, this attack never happened, because

14 Serbs held Vrbanjci throughout. It simply makes no sense. There was no

15 attack on Vrbanjci, the village was in the Serb hands throughout. I'm

16 completely unaware of this attack.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are talking of the 17th of September or

18 thereabouts, you confirm that on the 17th of September, the village of

19 Vrbanjci was already in Serb hands?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. All the time, throughout.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Korner.

22 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

23 Q. Then, please, I want to ask you about the event referred to in

24 P2257. It's a meeting the following day. Now, Mr. Zupljanin, Slobodan

25 Zupljanin, is briefing the War Presidency on an attack on the village of

Page 18259

1 Serdari. Your Honours, that's not on any of the maps we've got so far so

2 I'm going to ask that we hand in a map that's been prepared just to show

3 that village. It will be P2328.

4 Now, sir, Mr. Sadikovic, this I think was an attack, was it not,

5 that took place by Muslims?

6 A. Yes, Your Honours. I found out later that there had been an

7 attack on Serdari but this attack was carried out again by a local group

8 with men who had come from above, from Travnik, a joint, a mixed group, of

9 people from Travnik had come, Bosniaks and Croats, and allegedly, there

10 was a depot or something like that there, and they therefore launched

11 their attack on Serdari but there were no mortars because that depot

12 wasn't there, and I found out about that later. It was closer to Bilica

13 and Tesici and Bastine but yes, I heard about that attack. It did happen.

14 Q. All right. Now, can we look, please, at 2264? This is another

15 military document. It's the command of the 1st light Infantry Brigade in

16 Kotor Varos and if you go, please, to paragraph 4, the commander,

17 Mr. Novakovic says he's going to carry out preparations and mount an

18 attack and we see the places that he's going to mount an attack?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's no use putting the document on the ELMO and

20 when we are referring to paragraph 4 we can't see it. Thanks.


22 Q. The objective by unexpected and rapid actions using all combat and

23 technical means to crush the enemy forces in Kotor, Ravne and the other

24 places and then further actions to prevent enemy groups from carrying out

25 actions against the army, the population and the facilities, and that's

Page 18260

1 dated the 24th of September. Now, did such an operation start?

2 A. Yes, Your Honours. That operation took place and it was a very

3 difficult and broad operation with intensive use of artillery. I think it

4 took several days. No, I don't think. It did last several days. I can't

5 tell you whether it was four, five or six days but it did take quite a

6 number of days. And the villages of Hadrovci and Doljani were razed to

7 the ground by artillery and all the people took refuge in a nearby forest

8 between Jakotina and Hadrovci, so the whole village with a mosque and all

9 the other houses was destroyed, but luckily for us, the Serb infantry did

10 not enter there and we repulsed the attack.

11 Q. Now, I want to move to the time when you left the area, and I

12 think we can pick it up from a minute of the 1st of October, which is

13 P2271. There, in the third paragraph, under item 2, Nedjeljko Djekanovic

14 stated that representatives came from Sibovo where more than 650 people

15 from other villages, including extremists were staying, by compiling lists

16 of inhabitants the whereabouts of others, especially the men are to be

17 checked. Bishop Komarica [phoen] had visited and suggested that

18 everything be achieved by way of agreement with the involvement of the

19 corps representatives, the people be transported and a stance be taken in

20 all matters.

21 Now, at the beginning of October --

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, unless there is an objection I'm going

23 to lead on this because I've got very little time left.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Lead and then we see if there is an objection.

25 MS. KORNER: Right.

Page 18261

1 Q. Did you attend at the beginning of October a meeting in some

2 place -- four or five kilometres out of Kotor Varos town?

3 A. Yes, Your Honours. I did attend that meeting.

4 Q. And was that on the recommendation of Bishop Komarica, who was

5 acting as it were as an intermediary between the Serb side and both the

6 Croatian -- and the Croatian and Muslim resistance?

7 A. Yes, Your Honours. And I'd like to seize this opportunity to

8 really thank that great man. A true religious official who played a major

9 role there. I would have never gone to these negotiations because I would

10 have been afraid of it, but I talked with this priest and he gave me some

11 guarantees and said that I could go and -- I could talk with him, and I

12 really want to seize this opportunity because that was -- that was what

13 was decisive in my consideration of the possibility of negotiating with

14 the other side.

15 Q. All right. Was that meeting then attended by Mr. Djekanovic,

16 Slobodan Zupljanin, Vojo Kupresanin, and some other persons,

17 representatives of the military and also a representative, Mr. Bandalo,

18 from the Croat side?

19 A. Yes, Your Honours. I will tell you exactly the composition. In

20 addition to those you mentioned, there was Captain Balaban and there was

21 Peulic, a member of the state security Stru [phoen], Mandela Simovic

22 [phoen], and Mehmet Smajlovic, and I -- and I think Krevola [phoen] was

23 also there. Four of us.

24 Q. I'm trying to deal with this as shortly as I can, I'm afraid,

25 Mr. Sadikovic, because of the time. I think from what you remember,

Page 18262

1 Mr. Kupresanin was the main spokesperson from the Serb side and to you, he

2 seemed to be in charge; is that right?

3 A. Yes, that's how it was.

4 Q. And effectively, did you raise the issues of guarantees for, if

5 you all left and went to Travnik?

6 A. Yes. The other side was flexible enough, which surprised me,

7 because they accepted the conditions, we are talking about the conditions

8 under which we would agree to leave our municipality.

9 Q. All right. I think there was then a later meeting with Colonel

10 Peulic which you attended together with the Catholic priest and where

11 you -- gave him the name of a list of around 2.000 men, women and

12 children, that would form the convoy?

13 A. A small correction. At that meeting, we agreed that we should

14 compile a list with the full names of all those who would take that

15 convoy, between 1.000 and 1500, not 2.000, and I didn't bring it then but

16 we had simply agreed at that meeting that we would make the list of all

17 those who would be leaving and that list contained about 1500 names of the

18 citizens of Kotor Varos.

19 Q. All right. Now, did you also go to Vecici, accompanied by the

20 Catholic priest?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And with Peulic?

22 MS. KORNER: No, I don't think so. If you look at the statement,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I see after the meeting with Peulic.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes.

Page 18263



3 Q. Did you go to Vecici?

4 A. Yes, Your Honours. Since the local Vecici command did not accept

5 our conditions, and the decision of the staff to go in this way, I thought

6 that if I went to Vecici and used my authority, that I would be able to

7 prevail upon those people and if I risked my own life, my brother's life,

8 the life of my parents and everybody, I wanted to prevail on them that

9 unless you risk something, then you couldn't gain anything or succeed in

10 anything. However, between, on the road to Vecici, a group of people I

11 knew was on their way. Now I don't want to go into details. But --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You can lead him here Ms. Korner so that you

13 conclude.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I know there is a matter Mr. Ackerman

15 wants to raise and can I -- literally, I just want to put in one more

16 document tomorrow morning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman do you think you will require the

18 entire sitting tomorrow?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I think probably -- I don't know. Probably not,

20 Your Honour. Probably not.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you be prepared to concede the first 15

22 minutes of tomorrow's sitting to Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: Ten minutes would be ample.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Ten or fifteen would be no problem.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can stop here, send the witness back to the

Page 18264

1 hotel and see what Mr. Ackerman needs to tell us. Do I have your

2 indulgence, interpreters and technicians to stay for a further two, three

3 minutes? Do you think you will cover that in two minutes, three minutes,

4 Mr. --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Very quick, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness can be escorted. Thank you, sir. We

7 will see you again tomorrow morning, when we hope to conclude with your

8 testimony.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, too.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to wait until he's out, Mr. Ackerman or

11 can you start?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I can start right now, Your Honour. It's a very

13 simple matter.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 MR. ACKERMAN: In line with your offer basically earlier this

16 week, I think on Monday, and looking at what's coming to us the rest of

17 this case, and considering how exhausted I am today, I don't know if

18 you've noticed, I've even had trouble staying awake in court today, I

19 would like to defer the cross-examination of those two main experts of the

20 Prosecution, Mr. Brown and Mr. Treanor, until the Defence case. If we

21 could do that, then I think we could get through this. That would -- I

22 think that's acceptable to Ms. Korner, and that's my suggestion and my

23 request. I don't need to go my further.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know whether I'm overstepping at all but do

25 you -- at the present moment, are you thinking of providing -- bringing

Page 18265

1 forward also your own experts on the two areas that these two experts will

2 be dealing with later on as Defence witnesses?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Depends very heavily on the cross-examination and

4 how it works out, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that in Stakic, for example, an expert was

6 brought to balance what Mr. Brown had stated.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm fully aware of that and I'm even aware of that

8 particular expert, and I think -- I will only know when I have finished

9 the cross-examinations.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is what is being suggested by Mr. Ackerman

11 acceptable to you, Ms. Korner?

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, yes and no. First of all, yes.

13 Subject to this, the matter I raised yesterday, which is we are going to

14 be relying very heavily, pretty heavily, anyhow, on the expert testimony

15 of Mr. Brown, and the expert testimony of Mr. Treanor, although

16 Mr. Treanor in a sense is more just pulling the documents together but

17 Mr. Brown is actually going to give you an analysis.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the expert evidence of both of them, I've

19 gone through all the documentation that you have provided us with, and I

20 think both experts are very, very, very important. One more than the

21 other.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Treanor to a lesser extent than Mr. Brown and then

24 there are parts in Mr. Treanor's reports which are extremely important,

25 but others which are not that important.

Page 18266

1 MS. KORNER: The difficulty, Your Honour, arises -- I think Your

2 Honours saw yesterday how is Your Honour meant to treat uncross-examined

3 evidence for the purposes of the Rule 98 submissions? I think the

4 Defence -- I think the only way of doing it is that the Defence will have

5 to accept that that evidence is there, and they can't argue against it.

6 That's the difficulty. Particularly, Your Honour, in respect of the

7 schedules that were prepared to show what we suggest is the implementation

8 of the Crisis Staff -- the regional Crisis Staff's decisions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I hear all of that and I think that makes a great

11 deal of sense.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so too.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me just kind of play it this way. We'll see

14 what we can do. If we can do it, we'll do it, and if we can't, we just

15 can't, Judge, and I just can't put it any other way right now.

16 MS. KORNER: The only reason I ask.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Tomorrow may be better, I don't know.

18 MS. KORNER: The only reason I asked Mr. Ackerman to raise it

19 because I told Mr. Ackerman today that in order to fit in other fact

20 witnesses we were going to reduce Mr. Treanor to two days and wait and see

21 how long he wanted to cross-examine him for.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to suggest that in any case to reduce

23 him to two days.

24 MS. KORNER: To two days, and Mr. Brown, I think we've left the

25 three days for him because it's more of a complicated issue to follow

Page 18267

1 through.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: He's definitely a very important witness, Mr. Brown.

3 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour made reference to the general in the

4 Stakic case who said he agreed with Mr. Brown's findings.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Not with everything.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes. So, Your Honour, that's why we need to know,

7 because clearly if Mr. Brown is not going to be cross-examined, then we

8 will reduce the period.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I personally, and I am more or less thinking aloud,

10 I don't see much harm if any harm at all, if a cross-examination of

11 Mr. Brown takes place before Mr. Ackerman brings forward his own expert,

12 if he does. That's number 1.

13 Secondly, with regard to Mr. Treanor, I don't know if Mr. Ackerman

14 intends to bring forward an expert on the subject.

15 MS. KORNER: Well -- what, I'm sorry, This is going to take a

16 little longer but what's important is, if Mr. -- we can't wait. You see

17 what I mean. We can, but -- for if Mr. Ackerman cross-examines Mr. Brown

18 and then says I may be now getting an expert's report so there is no

19 expert's report, and we can't consult Mr. Brown about any expertise,

20 that's the difficulty.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But what -- I will be consulting with my colleagues

22 and we will come back to this because you caught me a little bit on the

23 wrong foot and I don't know what to tell you.

24 MS. KORNER: It's important, Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt,

25 but it's important because of organisation.

Page 18268

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you 100 per cent with you Ms. Korner

2 but perhaps if we could for the time being restrict ourselves to your in

3 chief which you keep to a minimum, and in a way, organise everything to

4 try and make sure that we finish with the other witnesses, give and take

5 some respite for Mr. Ackerman, I think it would be -- wouldn't be a bad

6 idea. I don't know. But -- let me think about it.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you caught me on the wrong foot.

9 MS. KORNER: All right. Can I then finally - I'm sorry,

10 Mr. Ackerman - can I ask --

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Can I just finish this one quickly?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: What I had in mind Your Honour, and I think this

14 was the logical thing, is if it's going to be deferred they would be the

15 two initial witnesses in the Defence case. I'd finish that

16 cross-examination before we actually went into Defence evidence so clearly

17 they would be testifying before I would call any expert at all, clearly.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine so. But --

19 MS. KORNER: Well, that's right, Your Honour, then as I say the

20 only problem remains the treating of that evidence for the purposes of

21 Rule 98 submissions and Your Honour and Mr. Ackerman --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: If it will be in the records, in the acts, it has to

23 be taken into consideration of course, no point in discussing that

24 because there is nothing which is in the records that is not being -- that

25 is going to be neglected for the purposes of Rule 98 bis.

Page 18269

1 MS. KORNER: All right. But it shouldn't lose any of its cogency

2 if I can put it that way, Your Honour.


4 MS. KORNER: Because it's not cross-examined. Then, Your Honour,

5 perhaps I can have a confirmation tomorrow morning from Your Honours and

6 Mr. Ackerman as to the definite that they won't be cross-examined because

7 we have to start moving witnesses up. The difficulty there is some

8 witnesses we haven't disclosed and we will fall foul again of the 30 day

9 disclosure rule. So I raise that if we have to move witnesses up.

10 The other matter is this: I don't whether this witness was

11 protected or not. He's the man who has to come back who brought the diary

12 with him. We would like to know has the Defence been given any indication

13 when it's being translated because there is no point --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: His book.

15 MS. KORNER: His memoir.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: His memoir, exactly.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: As Your Honour -- as you know they are not real

18 quick and I asked that it be done by the 15th of July and I haven't gotten

19 any complaint about that so I think it probably will be.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. We will take that up. Again, I

21 would like you, Madam Registrar, to extract what I'm going to say now and

22 communicate it to the President.

23 I wish to show in public my appreciation and that of my two

24 colleagues for the constant and continuing cooperation of the

25 interpreters, the technicians and the remaining staff of this Trial

Page 18270

1 Chamber, which makes it possible for us to clear up certain matters in

2 time but during extra time that they very kindly let us have. And I

3 want to acknowledge that and I want the President of the ICTY to know

4 that. Thank you.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 1.56 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

7 the 26th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.