Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21749

1 Thursday, 30 October 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning, everybody, and welcome.

7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

9 Case Number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.

11 Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the proceedings in a language you can

12 understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I

14 can.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. It's Joanna Korner,

17 Julian Nicholls, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And good morning to you. Mr. Cunningham,

19 appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm David Cunningham I'm here with Aleksandar

21 Vujic for the defendant.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Thank you and good morning to you too.

23 Good morning, Mr. Blagojevic. We are proceeding with your

24 testimony today. I just want to remind you that your testimony continues

25 on the solemn declaration you made yesterday. You don't need to repeat it

Page 21750

1 today, but I am reminding you that you are under the same oath.

2 Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that there are no preliminaries.

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: There are none from our side, Your Honour.

5 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

7 WITNESS: BORO BLAGOJEVIC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Cunningham: [Continued]

10 Q. Sir, when we left off yesterday, we were talking about the

11 physical plan, if you will, of the ARK Crisis Staff. I want you now to

12 tell us how decisions were reached. You told us yesterday that at some

13 point, the Crisis Staff became more a collection of municipal officials

14 and assemblymen. What I'd like to do is have you focus in on the way

15 decisions were reached prior to that time, that is, prior to the time it

16 became more of a body of people from municipalities. So having said that,

17 could you tell us how decisions were reached when this was a - and this is

18 going to be my phrase - when it was primarily a group of individuals from

19 Banja Luka.

20 A. I don't remember all of the details. It was a long time ago, and

21 I really can't remember all the details.

22 Q. Okay. Well, I'd like for you to tell us what you can remember.

23 You said you can't remember all the details. That implies that you can

24 remember some of the details. So tell the Chamber as best as you can how

25 the decisions were reached.

Page 21751

1 A. I really cannot remember all of those details.

2 Q. Can you remember anything about the way meetings were like when

3 members of the municipalities became the main participants in the ARK

4 Crisis Staff?

5 A. Yes. There were meetings. There were deputies there as well as

6 representatives of the municipalities.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. And I'm afraid I can't remember any of the details as to how this

9 looked like. I told you what I remember, and I told you yesterday. I

10 can't remember anything else.

11 Q. But I want to remind you that you also told me something different

12 in Banja Luka and something different in a proofing session. You have no

13 recollection of what you told me in those sessions?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

15 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I don't know if that's a

16 proper question to ask.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know how your system works.

18 MS. KORNER: I don't know either, but I've never heard a question

19 like that before.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: In my system, which we didn't borrow from

21 Ms. Korner's, we borrowed it from the Scots, I wouldn't allow it. So I do

22 realise the problem, but if you can rephrase it, Mr. Cunningham.

23 MS. KORNER: If -- can I put it this way, Your Honour, I have no

24 objection if this witness made a statement in writing from which he wishes

25 to refresh his memory.

Page 21752

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I apologise for interrupting. If there would

2 have been a statement, it would have been provided to you; he did not make

3 a statement in writing. With your permission, I'll proceed, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, but do try to rephrase it.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

6 Q. Do you remember when the ARK Crisis Staff consisted primarily or

7 the majority of the people came from the municipalities -- do you remember

8 what the main topics of conversation were at the ARK Crisis Staff

9 meetings?

10 A. The topics were all contained in the conclusions. Whatever is in

11 the conclusions that were passed by the Crisis Staff were the topics of

12 the conversation.

13 Q. Very well.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: If I could show the witness Exhibit 227,

15 Prosecutor's Exhibit 227, which is the first set of published opinions of

16 the ARK Gazette.

17 Q. I'm going to go to entry number 3, which is on page 4 of the

18 English translation. I direct your attention to entry number 5 under the

19 conclusions. Have you read that conclusion before, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That conclusion deals with security measures at the Laktasi

22 airport. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Laktasi airport or the Banja Luka airport by the

25 Laktasi Territorial Defence?

Page 21753

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It deals with the Banja Luka airport which is

2 actually in Laktasi.

3 Q. But having said that, it deals with the airport. Right, sir?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Do you know if this provision was ever implemented?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Well, let's go to the same exhibit, entry number 13. That is

8 in -- on page -- appears to be page 23 of the English version. If we look

9 at conclusion number 5, there is another provision that says: "The Crisis

10 Staff of the Municipality of Laktasi is to implement immediately the

11 decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and place

12 a barrier on the road to the Banja Luka airport along the

13 Banja Luka/Bosanska Gradiska main road." Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does it appear to you by 20 May, the date of this conclusion, that

16 that provision had ever been implemented?

17 A. Judging by this here, it was not implemented.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go back to entry number 3, the first time that this

19 provision is talked about. That is the conclusion reflected in the

20 Gazette on English page 4.

21 Looking at those conclusions, the remainder of those conclusions,

22 do you have any idea which, if any of those conclusions, were ever

23 implemented?

24 A. I don't know. I really don't.

25 Q. Fair enough. Let's go to the next page in the Gazette, entry

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Page 21755

1 number 4, English page 5, the listing of the conclusions of the Crisis

2 Staff of 8 May, 1992. I'm going to talk to you about three specific

3 conclusions. Look at conclusion number 3. Read that conclusion to

4 yourself and let me know when you're done reading.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That obviously has to do with paramilitaries. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you happen to have any recollection of the discussion at the

9 Crisis Staff related to this as to whether the discussion was concerned

10 with Serb paramilitaries, Croat paramilitaries, Muslim paramilitaries?

11 Can you shed any light on the who the paramilitaries they're talking about

12 are?

13 A. It applied to all the paramilitary formations.

14 Q. Was there any distinction made between Serb and non-Serb

15 paramilitaries, or was the desire to disarm all paramilitaries?

16 A. To disarm everybody but an emphasis was put on the Serb

17 paramilitary formations.

18 Q. Read conclusion number 8 to yourself. This deals with refugees.

19 And let me know when you're done reading.

20 A. For the refugees to come back home, you mean?

21 Q. Right. Have you read that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When that conclusion was issued, did it have any impact on those

24 refugees? That is, after the conclusion appeared in the ARK Gazette, did

25 the refugees go back to their homes?

Page 21756

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. The final one I want to ask you about specifically here is number

3 13, and this deals with Professor Mirjanic being appointed to replace

4 Mr. Kuzmanovic. That's what we had talked about yesterday. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Take these conclusions as a whole. Read them to yourself. I know

7 you've read these conclusions before, but if you need time to read them

8 now do so because I want to ask you which, if any, of these conclusions

9 were implemented, if you know.

10 A. Are you asking me to read all the 13 conclusions? I'm not clear.

11 Q. Yes, read all 13 to yourself, and then tell us based on that

12 reading which, if any, of those conclusions were ever implemented.

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Okay. Let's go to --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because sometimes I'm baffled by some

16 answers. Number 1, Professor Dragoljub Mirjanic is hereby appointed a new

17 member of the war staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina replacing

18 Ratko Kuzmanovic.

19 Do you remember this happening? Because you yourself yesterday

20 said that at a very early stage --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So this was implemented?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: This was implemented, so you know it was

25 implemented.

Page 21757

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

4 Q. Beyond that, do you know if any of the other decisions were ever

5 implemented, sir?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please, can you start from number 1 and we go

7 down so that the public can see what we are talking about.

8 A. I don't remember whether any other conclusions were implemented,

9 save for the one under number 13. I really don't remember whether any

10 other conclusions were ever implemented.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move ahead, Mr. Cunningham.

12 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, sir.

13 Q. Entry number 6 in Prosecutor 227 on English page 13 are the

14 conclusions of the Crisis Staff meeting, 9 May 1992. I want to first of

15 all direct your attention to entry number 2. Specifically, the third

16 paragraph under entry number 2 which reads as follows: "Decisions adopted

17 by the war staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina are to be strictly

18 respected in all public and economic organisations."

19 Do you recall why it was necessary, why someone felt it was

20 necessary to put such a statement in to these conclusions?

21 A. I really don't know.

22 Q. Okay. Reading the remainder of the conclusions to yourself, I

23 want to ask you the same question. Do you have any recollection of any of

24 these other conclusions being implemented?

25 A. I believe that only the decision under number 7 was applied.

Page 21758

1 Q. Okay. And what is your recollection of that?

2 A. We're talking about parts of enterprises whose headquarters were

3 in other republics of the former state. By this decision, they were

4 unable to continue their work.

5 Q. Do you remember anything about the subject matter of number 6,

6 which deals with various travel agencies in Banja Luka? Do you have any

7 recollection of that?

8 A. Travel agencies started charging a lot of money for the air

9 tickets that they were selling to people.

10 Q. Okay. Look at number 5, because that deals with the question of

11 the disarmament of paramilitary formations. Consistent with your prior

12 testimony, the presence of that conclusions there, would it be indicative

13 of the fact that that was a topic of discussion that day?

14 A. Yes. It says here: "We appeal to the presidents of the National

15 Defence Council to take immediate steps to disarm paramilitary

16 formations." So an appeal was made for the formations to be disarmed.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Cunningham. Have you finished with

18 number 5, or do you still have questions on number 5?

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm done with number 5, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So let me ask to make sure that I'm understanding

21 the witness well.

22 So in other words, you mean to tell us, Mr. Blagojevic, that

23 although this decision was taken, divided into three parts, the first one

24 being an appeal for the disarming; the second, the establishing of a

25 deadline by which the disarming had to -- or the weapons were to be turned

Page 21759

1 over; and the third, establishing the sanction, firm action should be

2 taken.

3 Do you mean to tell us that this decision had absolutely no

4 follow-up, no one took any steps to disarm the paramilitary formation? No

5 one ever mentioned or established the 11th of May 1992 or any subsequent

6 or other date by which weapons were to turn over? And that absolutely

7 nothing, and nothing happened to those who refused to turn illegally owned

8 weapon and ammunition? Is this your version? Is this your position?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see here that an appeal was

10 made to take measures. I don't know whether anything was actually done in

11 that respect.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't know?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I'm told there might be a possible

16 error in the translation of his answer at 8:25, so with the Court's

17 permission, I would re-ask the question.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, proceed, Mr. Cunningham.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

20 Q. Sir, a minute ago, we were talking about entry number 7 which had

21 to deal with business enterprises. And I asked you the following

22 question, it's reflected on page 8, line 23: "And what is your

23 recollection of that?"

24 Your answer was: "We're talking about parts of enterprises whose

25 headquarters were in other republics of the former state. By this

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Page 21761

1 decision, they were unable to continue their work." My case manager says

2 that he believes that there's an error in translation. So what would your

3 answer be?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You can suggest to the witness, Mr. Cunningham.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Sure.

6 Q. Did they get the translation correct? Is that what the effect of

7 number 7 was?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually I will put it myself. Did you say that by

9 virtue of this decision that they were unable to continue their work or

10 did you say by virtue of this decision they were able to continue their

11 work?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could continue their work.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That explains it. That is what you meant,

14 Mr. Cunningham, I suppose.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's fair, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'd like to show the witness a new exhibit, but I

18 want to keep 227 at the ready because he's going to be looking at it

19 again. I want to show you P182, which is a decision 9 May 1992, by the

20 Crisis Staff.

21 Q. I want you to read that exhibit 182 if you have the Serbian

22 version in front of you. Once you get it, read it.

23 A. "All the decisions and" --

24 Q. Go ahead and read it to yourself. You don't need to read it out

25 loud. When you're done, I'll ask you a question about it.

Page 21762

1 Ready? You were at the meeting, I take it. Why was it necessary

2 to put such a statement in a decision?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Are the people -- are the municipalities or other entities

5 complying with ARK Crisis Staff conclusions at this point?

6 A. I don't know whether they were complying or not.

7 Q. Do you have any idea why this statement would be put in there?

8 A. They were probably not complying in reality, and that must have

9 been the reason.

10 Q. And --

11 MS. KORNER: Well, that's being -- pushing it too far.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I would leave it for the cross-examination,

13 Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: All right.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Rather than raise it as an objection now.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to go to a new exhibit. I'd like to

17 look at P184. Then I'll come back to 227. And just to let the usher

18 know, the next exhibit after that will be 187, so that we can move ahead.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Noticing also the date of this document and the

20 proximity with the establishment of the Autonomous Region -- the ARK

21 Crisis Staff.

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Actually, Judge, I made a mistake. I mean to go

23 to 227. I apologise to the Court and counsel.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to go back to P227, entry number 7.

Page 21763

1 Should be the conclusions of 11 May 1992.

2 Q. This is reflected at page 15 of the Gazette. Entry number 4 reads

3 as follows: "The work of the Crisis Staff of the ARK is given full

4 support." Do you have any recollection why that provision was put in

5 there?

6 A. Probably because there were some who did not recognise it.

7 Q. And when you say "some that did not recognise it," what do you

8 mean when you identify them as "some"? Who is it that doesn't recognise

9 it?

10 A. Well, a considerable part of the municipality supported the

11 principle of regionalisation. Similarly, quite a few municipalities were

12 in favour of the centralisation principle.

13 Q. Okay. So having said that, how does that tie into your answer

14 that some did not recognise it? Those municipalities that, as you put it,

15 that were in favour of centralisation?

16 A. Well, even at those meetings, there was some controversy among

17 those who attended.

18 Q. Tell us what you -- identify what you mean by those meetings. Are

19 you talking about ARK Crisis Staff meetings or other meetings?

20 A. Yes, yes. I meant the meetings of the Crisis Staff.

21 Q. Could you tell us more about what you mean when you say that there

22 was some controversy among those who attended. How did this controversy

23 express itself? Was this expressed during the ARK Crisis Staff meetings?

24 A. Yes. Yes. Some people openly advocated this principle of

25 centralisation of organs or bodies, whereas others preferred

Page 21764

1 regionalisation.

2 Q. And those bodies that advocated centralisation, what was their

3 position with respect to the authority or competence of the ARK Crisis

4 Staff?

5 A. I did not understand that question.

6 Q. Sure. You told us that there were people at meetings who

7 advocated regionalisation; others that advocated centralisation. Those

8 that advocated centralisation, did they think that the ARK Crisis Staff

9 was a competent organ or lacked competence?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that in the translation, that in

11 the interpretation the word "competent" and "competence" are being

12 translated in the legal connotation in which they are being put by you,

13 Mr. Cunningham.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not being asked to confirm whether these

16 persons who opted for centralisation rather than regionalisation had their

17 own idea on the capabilities of the ARK Crisis Staff. But basically, on

18 whether the ARK Crisis Staff had jurisdiction, had the competence, in

19 other words, the legal competence, to take decisions. This is what you're

20 being asked. It has got nothing to do with competence in the sense of

21 expertise and ability to do something, knowing how to do it. But we're

22 talking of you're a lawyer by profession, so you should know what I am

23 talking about. Legal competence.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the regulations that were in

25 force then, the Crisis Staff did not have jurisdiction because it was not

Page 21765

1 established under a government decision or any -- by a decision of any

2 other republican body.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And this was your personal opinion, or the personal

4 opinion and stand taken by others, by someone else?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my opinion. I don't know what

6 the others thought.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: What did the others complain about, then? Those who

8 preferred centralisation rather than regionalisation? What was their

9 objection? Did they just say "we don't like you, we don't recognise you

10 because we shouldn't be dealing with this Crisis Staff on a regional basis

11 but on a national centralised basis"? What was being said in the

12 meetings?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, people objected for the most

14 part to the allocation of funds, the way funds were distributed, because

15 funds were kept in the reserves of the region, and they were not allowed

16 to go on to the budget of the republic.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You have my sympathy, Mr. Cunningham. I'm at a

18 loss, so I return him back to you. Maybe you'll be more successful than I

19 have been.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I appreciate that, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Let's go to a new exhibit. Let's look at P187

23 which ironically enough deals with finances. This is a decision of 11 May

24 1992 by the ARK Crisis Staff.

25 I don't have it in Serbian. I'm sorry.

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Page 21767

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What are you looking for?

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I've got it, Your Honour. I had a copy.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. If you need it in Serbo-Croat, I can

4 give it to you as well.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

6 Q. Sir, this is a decision dealing with the financing of the

7 institution in defence of the ARK directing that all the municipalities

8 within the Krajina deposit money on a per capita basis into a specific

9 account. Read that to yourself, make sure that I've described it fairly.

10 And when you're done reading it to yourself, I'd like to ask you a

11 question.

12 Do you remember this decision?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Is this one of the decisions of the financing that you were

15 talking about just a few moments ago?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was money ever deposited into the account reflected in there, or

18 any money ever paid over to the ARK that you recalled from these

19 municipalities?

20 A. No, these funds were never paid because the municipalities were at

21 that time applying the laws enacted by the National Assembly including the

22 law on turnover tax and tax and services under which they paid

23 contributions and dues. But the point is that these funds did not go to

24 the budget of the republic. They went, instead, to various funds in the

25 territory of the autonomous region. This decision was never applied.

Page 21768

1 Q. Okay. Do you know of any municipality that was ever sanctioned

2 for not paying funds as you've just described?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. All right.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it possible, Mr. Blagojevic, that you were not

6 being kept informed and that these funds or these deposits may have

7 actually taken place, and you are simply not aware of them, or not aware

8 of the fact?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You're a hundred per cent sure that no municipality

11 ever paid these 30 dinars per citizen to this transfer account number?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly not in 1992. In 1992, I'm

13 sure they were not.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

15 Mr. Cunningham.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

17 Q. Back to Exhibit P227, I'm going to go to entry number 9. English

18 translation is on page 17.

19 A. Which date is that?

20 Q. It should be 13 May 1992, and specifically I want you to look at

21 conclusion number 4 which reads as follows: "The Security Services Centre

22 in Banja Luka is to fully implement the decisions of the Crisis Staff of

23 the Autonomous Region of Krajina on the disarming of illegal paramilitary

24 units and individuals who are in possession of weapons and ammunition."

25 Which paramilitaries was the Crisis Staff referring to?

Page 21769

1 A. It was probably referring to all paramilitary formations.

2 Q. We know from your prior review and your prior testimony that this

3 is a topic that is brought up several times in the conclusions. Do you

4 know why it was necessary - thank you - why it was necessary or felt

5 necessary to put the language that the Security Services Centre is to

6 fully implement the decisions? Do you know why that is?

7 A. I don't know whether this decision was enforced. That is the only

8 reason.

9 Q. Let me take you to number 7. Conclusion number 7 reads as

10 follows: "The persons authorised to resolve all military and political

11 issues in the Autonomous Region of Krajina are Vojo Kupresanin and

12 Predrag Radic." Do you have any recollection of that conclusion, why it

13 is that those two gentlemen are authorised to resolve all military and

14 political issues in the ARK?

15 A. Vojo Kupresanin was probably named as the president of the

16 assembly of the autonomous region. And Predrag Radic as the president of

17 the Municipal Assembly of the largest municipality.

18 Q. Do you have any idea why it is that Mr. Brdjanin didn't receive

19 that authorisation?

20 A. I don't know. I really don't know.

21 Q. Fair enough. Let's go to the very last entry. The very last

22 entry is number 12. That appears to be the same --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let's go back to the previous one,

24 Mr. Cunningham. This number 7, the assignment to Mr. Kupresanin and

25 Mr. Radic of the authorisation, responsibility basically, to resolve all

Page 21770

1 the, not just some, but all, the military and political issues in the ARK.

2 Do you consider this as a heavy assignment? A heavy responsibility?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It probably was.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it heavier than being president of the ARK

5 Crisis Staff?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really don't know.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But Vojo Kupresanin was healthy enough to take over

8 such a responsibility?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, by virtue of this conclusion,

10 he was appointed. He was assigned this responsibility. Whether he was

11 really able to discharge it, I don't know.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

15 Q. Let me go to the same exhibit, to the next entry, entry number 10,

16 the conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff, 14 May 1992. And sir, I want you

17 to look at number 1, read it to yourself, because this again deals with

18 disarmament.

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Okay. Has the topic changed? By that I mean: Are we talking

21 about all paramilitary groups or just non-Serb paramilitary groups?

22 A. I don't know. I really don't.

23 Q. What about number 5? Read number 5 to yourself because this has

24 to deal with the financing of the republican institutions on ARK

25 territory.

Page 21771

1 A. Yes. That refers to what I said a moment ago. Funds were not

2 paid into the republican budget. Contributions and dues were instead paid

3 to funds inside the region, to the SDK, the social accountancy service or

4 the government auditing agency of the region. And from these funds,

5 pensions were paid, healthcare, police, education, and other institutions.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next entry, which is the conclusions of the

7 ARK Crisis Staff meeting held 15 May 1992. I'm going to talk to you about

8 entry number 3 which reads as follows: "Especially strict measures shall

9 be implemented against any person misusing the uniform and insignia of the

10 police, the TO, or the army and, without authorisation, stopping or

11 checking people's identities or vehicles, searching dwellings or other

12 premises."

13 Was that conclusion directed at Serbs or non-Serbs, if you know?

14 A. Paramilitary units were meant. Probably Serb paramilitary units.

15 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next entry on Prosecutor's Exhibit 227.

16 These are the conclusions of 18 May 1992. It says: "The Crisis Staffs

17 are now the highest organs of authority in the municipalities." Do you

18 see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Looking at number 4, this is another provision dealing with

21 disarming paramilitaries. Number 6 is also something to deal with the

22 disarming of the paramilitaries. I'm going to read number 4 out loud.

23 "All formations that are not in the army of the Serbian Republic of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina or the Banja Luka security service centre and are

25 in the ARK are considered paramilitary formations and must be disarmed.

Page 21772

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Page 21773

1 "All those who are not part of the armed forces of the Serbian

2 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina or its police must return their

3 weapons."

4 Considering the language there, is that language directed towards

5 Serb paramilitary or non-Serb paramilitaries? Do you know?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Okay. Let's go to entry number 13, the last two conclusions of 20

8 May 1992 Crisis Staff meeting read as follows. Number 8 says: "All

9 municipalities must contribute adequate funding for the security service

10 centre of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."

11 Number 9 reads: "All municipalities must immediately pay in funds

12 for the financing of the institutions of the Autonomous Region of

13 Krajina."

14 You told us earlier that individuals didn't pay money into the ARK

15 by 20 May 1992. Does this appear to be another request for money?

16 A. It must be.

17 Q. Well, you were there. What's your recollection?

18 A. I think that not all municipalities were paying these taxes and

19 contributions that were due. And the funds available were insufficient to

20 pay out pensions, to finance education, healthcare, et cetera.

21 Q. Were you aware of any sanctions that were ever imposed or

22 penalties imposed on those municipalities that were not paying these taxes

23 and contributions that were due?

24 A. Well, no sanctions could be prescribed because the taxes and

25 contributions were payable under republican legislation. The law on sales

Page 21774

1 tax stipulates very precisely who is sanctionable in case of failure to

2 pay. It was strictly legislated. It did not depend on anybody's will.

3 Q. Do you know whether if the ARK Crisis Staff had the authority or

4 the competence, the legal authority or the legal competence to sanction

5 member municipalities for not paying?

6 A. It could not do that. The ARK Crisis Staff had no legal tool to

7 sanction anybody.

8 Q. When you say "they had no legal tool," what do you mean by that?

9 A. Nobody could be dismissed if they didn't apply this.

10 Q. And why couldn't they be dismissed? Did the ARK have the power to

11 do that or not?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The ARK Crisis Staff?

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: ARK Crisis Staff. I apologise, Your Honour.

14 A. Very simply put, even if somebody failed to comply, there were no

15 penalties to be imposed. When taxes were paid, it is well known who is

16 supposed to control that and see whether a person abides by the law or

17 not. The body that controls it is the tax administration.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go to entry number 17, page 29 of the English version

19 of P227. The conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff meeting, 26 May 1992.

20 Conclusion number 1 reads as follows: "The work of the Crisis Staff of

21 the Autonomous Region of Krajina has absolute support since it is now the

22 highest organ of authority in the Autonomous Region of Krajina, as the

23 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina cannot function due to

24 objective and subjective circumstances.

25 "Decisions of the Crisis Staff are binding for all crisis staffs

Page 21775

1 in the municipalities.

2 "These decisions of the Crisis Staff shall be submitted for

3 verification to the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina as soon

4 as it is able to convene."

5 I've read that to you. I want to make sure that you have that in

6 front of you because I'm going to ask you questions about it. You were

7 present at the ARK Crisis Staff meetings during this period. Do we still

8 have the controversy between the municipalities in favour of

9 regionalisation and those in favour of centralisation?

10 A. Yes, yes. That remained the case until the very end.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. And that is why on either the 14th or the 15th of September,

13 amendments were adopted to the constitution by which regions stopped

14 existing.

15 Q. Okay. Well, let's get back to the controversy. Those -- at

16 around this time period, which is 26 May 1992, in ARK Crisis Staff

17 meetings, are there municipalities who are questioning the legal

18 competence of the ARK Crisis Staff?

19 A. There were no written complaints. This thing transpired only in

20 debates and discussions.

21 Q. Okay. So to answer my question, are there or are there not people

22 who are questioning the legal competence of the ARK Crisis Staff at the

23 very meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff?

24 A. Yes, there were.

25 Q. Let's go back to conclusion number 1 where it reads that "the work

Page 21776

1 of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina has absolute

2 support..." I'm going to stop right there. Did it have the absolute

3 support of all the municipalities, the ARK Crisis Staff?

4 A. Well, since it is worded in this way, you can guess that it didn't

5 enjoy the support of all the municipalities.

6 Q. And why do you say that, sir?

7 A. Based on the dislike on the part of the people who were either in

8 favour of regionalisation or in favour of centralisation.

9 Q. Okay. The next clause in -- next segment of conclusion number 1

10 reads: "... Since it" - the ARK Crisis Staff - "is now the highest organ

11 of authority in the Autonomous Region of Krajina." Was it the highest

12 organ of authority?

13 A. I really don't know.

14 Q. Do you have any idea why they felt, they, the members of the ARK

15 Crisis Staff, felt it was necessary to reach a conclusion with this

16 wording? Let me phrase it this way: If they claim to be the highest

17 organ in the ARK, why do they have to keep saying it? Do you know?

18 A. Probably because of the dislike and the division among the

19 municipalities who were either in favour of regionalisation or

20 centralisation.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next entry, which is in Prosecutor's 227,

22 entry 18, English page 30, the conclusions of the Crisis Staff meeting of

23 the ARK 27 May 1992, a number of conclusions. I'm going to read to you

24 number 1 because I want to ask you a question about that. Number 1 of the

25 conclusions reads as follows: "A maximum degree of cooperation is to be

Page 21777

1 established between the civilian and military authorities."

2 Earlier, there was a conclusion dealing with General Talic and how

3 he was requested to have mandatory attendance, and that talked about the

4 cooperation between civilian and military authorities. 27 May, when this

5 conclusion is entered, do you know why this provision is put into the

6 conclusions of the Crisis Staff?

7 A. Probably, there was no cooperation, at least no good cooperation.

8 And the military even mobilised some of the deputies. According to the

9 law which was then in force, deputies were not supposed to be mobilised.

10 Q. Okay. Now, earlier you told us that I think it was

11 Colonel Vujinovic attended the meetings in the place of General Talic. Do

12 you have any recollection of any direct orders being given by the Crisis

13 Staff to either Colonel Vujinovic or any other military member of the

14 Crisis Staff?

15 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.

16 Q. Do you remember any direct orders ever being given by the ARK

17 Crisis Staff to any member of the security organs who might have been a

18 member of the Crisis Staff?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Do you remember the military making any request on the

21 Crisis Staff either for food or supplies or anything like that?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Let's go to entry number 23 in Prosecutor's 227.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I have just a minute, Your Honour. I've got

25 the wrong conclusion.

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Page 21779

1 Let's go back one conclusion to number 22. These are the

2 conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff 28 May 1992.

3 Q. Conclusion number 1 reads as follows: "The control of all black

4 marketeering outlets, the illegal exchange of foreign currencies and

5 illegal trade must be tightened." Do you remember if Mr. Brdjanin had any

6 position one way or the other against black marketeering and illegal

7 trade? Did he speak out against it?

8 A. Everybody fought against this.

9 Q. And would that include Mr. Brdjanin?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm done with Exhibit 227. I'm going to talk to

12 him about Exhibit 258, which is the next publication, I guess, of the ARK

13 Crisis Staff Gazette. Actually, it's the ARK Gazette.

14 Q. Entry 34 deals with the conclusions of the Crisis Staff reached at

15 a meeting, 9 June 1992. Actually, it's a decision rather than a

16 conclusion. Roman number I reads as follows: "In order to make more

17 rational use of oil and oil products, the senior officials of the security

18 service centre and the command corps shall impose immediate, absolute, and

19 unconditional controls over the consumption of such products by

20 significantly reducing the rather large number of transport units used and

21 ceasing to using these vehicles immediately."

22 Do you know what the response was from the police and the military

23 with respect to this decision? Do you know whether it was ever followed?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Are you aware of anyone ever reporting back from the police or the

Page 21780

1 military as to whether or not they ever did anything to implement that

2 decision?

3 A. I don't remember. I really don't.

4 Q. Okay.

5 Let's go to entry number 42 in P258. This is a decision from the

6 ARK Crisis Staff at a meeting held 15 June 1992. Reads as follows:

7 "Decision on amending and supplementing the statute of the Autonomous

8 Region of Krajina. Article 1, paragraph 2 of the Article 35 of the

9 statute of the Autonomous Region of Krajina - it gives the reference

10 number - is hereby amended to read: `The decisions and conclusions of the

11 Assembly must be respected by the municipalities.'" Article 2 gives the

12 date that the law is to come into effect.

13 Do you recall what the thought process was of the Crisis Staff

14 as -- when they reached this decision?

15 A. The statute of the autonomous region could be amended on the

16 proposal of the assembly of the region, of the associated municipalities,

17 and on the executive council. Here, the statute was not respected. This

18 is contrary to the statute.

19 Q. Okay. What is the sense from the municipalities at this point?

20 Are they respecting the ARK decisions? What can you tell us about that?

21 You told us about the controversy between regionalisation and

22 centralisation. I take it it's still going on at this juncture, correct,

23 in 15 June 1992?

24 MS. KORNER: Well, Mr. Cunningham can take what he likes, but

25 what's the answer from the witness?

Page 21781

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: My question was I take it there was still the

2 discussions over -- discussions between centralisation foes and

3 regionalisation foes.

4 MS. KORNER: My objection to it is it's a leading question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has put the question once before, and it

6 was allowed. And he is taking it week by week sort of. In some instances

7 the witness said yes, he was aware of it, and other instances he said he

8 was not aware of it. So maybe he can tell us now whether it was still on

9 or not. Here he has, however, answered by saying that this division

10 remained to the very end.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've sat here -- I don't want to give

12 basic advocacy lessons, but the proper question is: Was there at this

13 stage still discussion going on? Not, I take it there was. But Your

14 Honour, I agree; I haven't objected so far.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically he has already answered the question, and

16 I don't even see the need for the question being put again because he has

17 already told you that this division, this discussion was there, remained

18 until the very end, until practically September 12th or 14th.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Well, I'll certainly honour Your Honour's

20 directives. I have no problem doing that.

21 Q. But my question is -- and it's in a different way. What is the

22 attitudes towards the municipalities on 15 June 1992 with respect to the

23 legal competence of the ARK Crisis Staff; that is, the legal ability of

24 the ARK Crisis Staff to issue binding decisions? Are they respecting

25 this, not respecting it? What is your answer?

Page 21782

1 A. At their sessions, the municipalities had to adopt those. Whether

2 they did that or not, I don't know.

3 Q. But during this time period, when we're talking about -- I guess

4 we're in mid-June, what is the sense of the municipalities? Are they

5 respecting it or not respecting the ARK Crisis Staff decisions?

6 A. It transpires from this decision since the statute was amended,

7 one may conclude that they didn't respect that.

8 Q. Okay.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Cunningham.

10 How was this statute before and how is it amended now? Am I

11 correct in stating that the statute required before being amended that

12 decisions and conclusions taken by the Crisis Staff were to be validated,

13 approved, by the municipal assemblies, by the respective municipal

14 assemblies?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Were the municipal assemblies meeting at the time?

17 Or were they in hibernation because of the existence of crisis staffs in

18 all the municipalities?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably they had to freeze their

20 activities, so there were no sessions due to the government's decision on

21 the establishment of crisis staffs.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So wouldn't it have been logical and reasonable in a

23 time of great crisis that the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of

24 Krajina to make sure that the decisions and conclusions are adopted, are

25 implemented, that the statute of the Autonomous Region of Krajina be

Page 21783

1 amended?

2 Since the municipal assemblies were not meeting, and therefore

3 could not adopt or approve the decisions taken by the ARK Crisis Staff,

4 was that the situation to be accepted, to be kept, to be tolerated in a

5 time of crisis, or a situation which needed a remedy, the remedy being the

6 amendment to the statute that was adopted on decision number 42?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since the assemblies could not hold

8 their meetings, then the crisis staff of each municipality was supposed to

9 ratify this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would take it that if I were to show you

11 documents of conclusions of decisions taken by the municipal crisis staffs

12 adopting, endorsing the decisions taken by the ARK Crisis Staff, would

13 that mean that the municipalities were implementing the decisions of the

14 ARK Crisis Staff, or not to you?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they ratified them at their

16 sessions, I suppose they were then in a position to implement them.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

19 Q. Following up on Mr. President's questions to you, do you know what

20 percentage -- do you have any idea of the percentage of ARK Crisis Staff

21 decisions that were implemented? Do you have any way of knowing that?

22 A. I don't know. I really don't.

23 Q. Were you aware in the time that you were on the Crisis Staff and

24 working with it on a regular basis of the ARK Crisis Staff ever

25 sanctioning a specific municipality or any municipality for failing to

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Page 21785

1 implement any of their decisions?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know.

3 Q. Okay. I'm done with -- while we're talking about ARK Crisis Staff

4 meetings, let me ask you: To the best of your recollection, do you ever

5 remember any discussion about Manjaca or any of the other camps at ARK

6 Crisis Staff meetings?

7 A. I don't remember. I don't.

8 Q. Do you remember the representatives from -- first of all, what was

9 the attitude of the Prijedor Municipality towards the ARK Crisis Staff?

10 A. They showed dislike towards the people and the work of the Crisis

11 Staff.

12 Q. And how did that dislike manifest itself? Were you aware of any

13 written decisions by, for example, the Prijedor Crisis Staff relating to

14 the ARK -- the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff?

15 A. No, I'm not aware of any decisions that were passed in Prijedor.

16 But this dislike was very obvious at the meetings. It transpired very

17 clearly.

18 Q. And how did it transpire? How did it manifest or show itself at

19 the meetings?

20 A. They emphasised the principle of centralisation whereas the others

21 emphasised the principle of regionalisation.

22 Q. Other than the Prijedor Municipality, do you know what

23 municipalities joined with them in the -- on the principle of

24 centralisation?

25 A. There were some, but I can't remember which ones.

Page 21786

1 Q. Let me see if I can jog your memory. What about Sanski Most? Do

2 you have any recollection of what their position was?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. How about Krupa?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How about Kotor Varos?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. During specific Crisis Staff meetings, were you and the members of

9 the Crisis Staff given information, for example, about the clashes in

10 Prijedor around Kozarac?

11 A. I don't remember. I don't remember any.

12 Q. During your testimony today, you and I have -- you've discussed

13 and referred to decisions that were published in Prosecutor's 227,

14 Prosecutor's 258, which are the ARK Gazette. Were those ARK Gazettes

15 published and disseminated during the existence of the ARK Crisis Staff?

16 A. They were not disseminated. They could be purchased.

17 Q. Okay. Well, after a meeting of the ARK Crisis Staff, if decisions

18 and conclusions were reached, how were they -- how was the word spread?

19 How did the municipalities find out?

20 A. I believe that they found out through their representatives.

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I'm about to go into a new subject

22 that's a rather lengthy one.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a break of 25 minutes starting from

24 now. Usher, please could you accompany the witness first.

25 Okay. 25 minutes from now. Thank you.

Page 21787

1 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. As the secretary to the ARK Crisis Staff, were you responsible for

6 the actual drafting of these conclusions and decisions that we just have

7 been talking about?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. Were you the individual also responsible for typing them up in the

10 form that we see in the various exhibits that have been admitted to this

11 Chamber?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After the decision or conclusions were in their final form and

14 ready for signature, what would happen? What was your -- what did you do?

15 A. After that, we published them in the Official Gazette.

16 Q. Did the -- was it necessary for -- to obtain some signatures on

17 the decisions or conclusions?

18 A. Well, sometimes yes; sometimes not.

19 Q. Let's talk about the times that it was done. Would you take these

20 decisions and conclusions and present them to the defendant for his

21 signature or to someone else for his or her signature?

22 A. It was usually I who did it.

23 Q. Okay. And of the decisions and conclusions that were presented,

24 do you remember how many the defendant signed?

25 A. I can't remember.

Page 21788

1 Q. Okay, let's go ahead and refresh your recollection by looking at

2 the exhibits.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I apologise. This is going to take a little

4 bit, Your Honour. The exhibit to look at -- I'm working on a spreadsheet,

5 Your Honour, because our database was down last night and I couldn't pull

6 off the specific documents.

7 The first exhibit would be P175, decision of 6 May 1992. And what

8 I'm going to ask you to do, sir, is to look at the --

9 Mr. Usher, there's going to be a string of decisions that are

10 going to be in this same range, between 175 up to 241 -- 243. The bulk of

11 them will be in that range, just to assist you.

12 Q. You should have Exhibit P175 in front of you. Do you recognise

13 that signature? Do you know whose signature that is?

14 A. No. I don't.

15 Q. The next exhibit I want to show you is Exhibit P179, 8 May 1992

16 conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff. I want to ask you if you recognise

17 that signature.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is obviously a matter for

19 Mr. Cunningham. But if he's going to do this exercise, it may be

20 sensible, he gave us a list of all the documents that appear to do with

21 Brdjanin's signature. I don't know if he wants to look at Exhibit 176

22 because that's the next one --

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, I don't intend on doing that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner. Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

Page 21789

1 Q. Do you recognise that signature as the defendant's?

2 A. I'm not sure.

3 Q. Okay. Let's go to P183, 9 May 1992 conclusion. Do you recognise

4 that signature?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to 18 -- Prosecutor's 182, and I'll ask you the

7 same question. This is a decision, 9 May, ARK Crisis Staff, 1992. Again,

8 do you recognise that signature?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is it the defendant's signature?

11 A. I'm not sure.

12 Q. All right. And you do recognise Mr. Brdjanin's signature; you've

13 seen it many, many times before, or have you?

14 Let me rephrase it so it's not leading. Do you recognise

15 Mr. Brdjanin's signature?

16 A. Well, I do.

17 Q. I just want to make sure. Okay. The next exhibit would be 185.

18 Conclusions, 11 May 1992. Is that the defendant's signature, sir?

19 A. I'm not sure.

20 Q. Okay. After this, let's look at P187. Decision, 11 May 1992. Is

21 that the defendant's signature?

22 A. I'm not sure.

23 Q. When you say you're not sure, what do you mean by that? Do you

24 recognise it as his signature? You mean, you tell us you know it.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand this.

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Page 21791

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat your answer because the

2 interpreters didn't hear you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the question,

4 is what I said.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

6 Q. This is going to be a series of questions. It's going to be the

7 same thing. I'm trying to establish if these are the defendant's

8 signatures on these documents that I'm putting in front of you. So the

9 question is a very, very simple one: Is this his signature?

10 A. I'm not sure because there were a lot of people at that time who

11 may have faked his signature.

12 Q. Did you ever sign for him?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Let's now look at P184. This is 11 May 1992, information related

15 to travel permits. Do you recognise that to be the defendant's signature?

16 A. I'm not sure.

17 Q. Does it appear to be his signature? Is it close, or what are you

18 not so sure about?

19 A. Whose signature?

20 Q. Okay. Let's look at P192, please. Yes, 13 May 1992 conclusion.

21 Do you recognise whose signature that is?

22 A. You mean Mr. Brdjanin's?

23 Q. My question is do you recognise that signature as belonging to a

24 specific --

25 A. I did not understand whose signature you mean.

Page 21792

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I don't know why you're getting confused.

2 What you have right in front of you, what does it show there?

3 There's a stamp; there's a name; there's a signature. Whose signature is

4 that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that, and I'm not sure

6 whose signature it is. I don't know.

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

8 Q. Okay. Let's go to P191. I'll ask you the same question. Whose

9 signature is this?

10 A. I'm not sure.

11 Q. Okay. I'll ask you the same question with respect to P198, 14 May

12 1992 instructions dealing with a duty rota. Whose signature is that?

13 A. I'm not sure whether this is Mr. Brdjanin's signature.

14 Q. Okay. Next exhibit will be P194, 14 May 1992 conclusion. Whose

15 signature is that?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Okay. The next exhibit will be P200, 15 May 1992 statement

18 regarding curfews. Whose signature is that?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Next exhibit will be P199, this is 15 May 1992, a conclusion

21 dealing with curfew. And again, sir, whose signature is that? Actually,

22 that doesn't appear to have a signature. Well, the good news is -- well,

23 I won't say anything.

24 The next exhibit will be P210. This is 27 May 1992, conclusion.

25 Do you recognise -- I'm glad to see there's a signature and ask you if you

Page 21793

1 recognise that?

2 A. No, I don't know.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: May I interrupt you for a minute, Mr. Cunningham.

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Absolutely, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And ask the witness a very simple question. Was

6 there anyone else authorised to sign these conclusions, apart from the

7 president, apart from Radoslav Brdjanin?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, any member of the Crisis Staff

9 could have signed.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Could you sign any of them?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that I was

12 authorised to sign.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: On what do you base your conclusion that any member

14 of the Crisis Staff was authorised to sign these conclusions? On what do

15 you base --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, sometimes after a session was

17 over, if Mr. Brdjanin had to leave very quickly because he had prior other

18 engagements, then somebody else could have signed for him.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour. The next exhibit would

21 be P532, 3 June 1992, decision. This regards Atlas Travel.

22 Just for the usher's benefit, the next exhibits will be in the

23 range of 230 to -- roughly up to 273.

24 Q. Is that Mr. Brdjanin's signature?

25 A. I don't think it is.

Page 21794

1 Q. Okay. Next exhibit will be P232, 8 June 1992 decision. Do you

2 see a signature there?

3 Okay. Move to the next exhibit, which is going to be P238,

4 conclusions, 9 June 1992. I'll ask you the same question when you get it:

5 Is that Mr. Brdjanin's signature if indeed there is a signature on that

6 form?

7 A. I think not.

8 Q. Next exhibit would be P295, 9 June 1992 decision dealing with

9 employment matters.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham, Ms. Korner, I need to suspend the

11 sitting for a couple of minutes. In the meantime, perhaps if you give the

12 list to the usher --

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Absolutely, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- We can prepare. This list, we can hand the

15 documents straight away to the witness, and he can then simply identify

16 from amongst those documents any in which Mr. Brdjanin's signature he

17 recognises.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's a wonderful suggestion.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- and you can stay here.

20 --- Break taken at 11.22 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.25 a.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think if we finish the exercise --

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think we're coming close, Your Honour. I've

24 given him a list, put it in chronological order. And he's also, because I

25 couldn't access these documents last night, checking to see if there's a

Page 21795

1 signature.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And our usher, I can assure you is an extremely

3 efficient person. I told him so yesterday, that his help -- yes, I see.

4 Mr. Nicholls, one moment.

5 His efficiency contributes to the better running of the

6 proceedings and I appreciate that.

7 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: Just a completely different subject, Your Honours

9 had suggested that Mr. Brown look for documents on two topics based on his

10 cross-examination. Yesterday we were to give you a deadline, and in

11 everything that happened, we didn't. And we forget to tell you. I

12 apologise. Last night, I called Mr. Brown and just asked him how long he

13 would need, and he would ask until next Friday. Not tomorrow, a week from

14 tomorrow, and he'll submit whatever documentation he can find on those two

15 matters.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, so it would be Friday the 7th.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I think that's right.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. All right.

19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Then for the record, Mr. Brown has until Friday, the

21 7th of November to furnish the Trial Chamber with additional information

22 reference to which was made in one of the last two sittings.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, following your suggestion, what

Page 21796

1 we're doing is we're pulling all the documents --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's what we need. Because going through

3 each document one by one sometimes only to discover that there is not even

4 a signature, I think it's a cumbersome procedure.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It's tantalising testimony, I'm sure everybody's

6 just enthralled by it, but I appreciate the Court's suggestion.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Once he has singled them out if any at all, he will

8 hand them to us, we will have them verified by the Prosecution, by

9 yourself, and by us, and we will put them on record.

10 Now, witness, Mr. Blagojevic, what I want you to do is this: You

11 are going to look through a series of documents on which supposedly there

12 is a signature. I want you to go through each one of these documents.

13 And if you recognise Mr. Brdjanin's signature on any of them, please keep

14 that document separate. And at the end of this exercise, you will hand to

15 the usher all those documents on which you have recognised Mr. Brdjanin's

16 signature. The others, you put aside for the time being.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: When you are ready tell us.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you please give to the usher all the documents

21 on which you have recognised Mr. Brdjanin's signature.

22 How many? Just one document. Can I have a look at it, usher,

23 please, before I show it to the Prosecution, to the Defence, and then

24 we'll put it on the ELMO.

25 Yes, usher, could you show it to Ms. Korner, please. That's the

Page 21797

1 same document. I mean, it's two copies of the same document.

2 Could you show the document, please, to Mr. Cunningham.

3 Yes, and usher, could I ask you, please, to put the document, both

4 pages, one after the other on the ELMO so that the accused himself has a

5 look at it, and the public. Yes, could we see the other one, please. All

6 right.

7 Could you hand them back to me, please.

8 For the record, the witness has identified

9 Document Exhibit Number P255b.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just confirm, that the number of

11 the decision is 03-531/92.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is.

13 MS. KORNER: It has been exhibited twice.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly this is why. Which refers precisely to

15 decision 3-531/92 dated 22nd of June of 1992.

16 Yes, usher, you can have this document back. And could I have the

17 other -- all the other documents, please. And for the record, the other

18 documents which were shown to the witness and on which he did not

19 recognise the signature of Mr. Brdjanin are document having ERN number in

20 B/C/S, 01061766, referring to the decision numbered 03-486/92, dated 17th

21 of June 1992.

22 Exhibit Number P243, which refers to decision number 03-562/92

23 dated 12th June 1992; Exhibit Number P273, referring to decision number

24 03-604/92, dated 2nd July 1992; document bearing ERN number

25 0057384 -- 3850 which -- on which there is no indication as to the date of

Page 21798

1 the decision; document Exhibit Number P260 referring to decision number

2 03-361/92 dated 24th of June 1992; document Exhibit Number P254 which

3 refers to "Leaders only loyal Serbs," an article in a newspaper, dated

4 22nd June 1992 having as a title: "Leaders only loyal Serbs"; document

5 with ERN number 00880271 referring to decision number 03-457/92 dated 12th

6 June 1992; Exhibit Number P239 referring to decision 03-465/92 dated 11th

7 June 1992; and finally, document in B/C/S having ERN number 00880273

8 referring to decision 03-579/92 dated 12th June 1992.

9 You can have them all back, usher. And again, once more, I thank

10 you. And I thank you also, Mr. Cunningham.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Don't get in a hurry, Judge, because I have one

12 more document I forgot to show the witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No major calamity.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't think he was shown P46, which is a 24

15 June 1992 decision, and I also want to ensure he was shown P1725. And the

16 usher has told me he was shown that document. So P46, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this is

18 Mr. Brdjanin's signature.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm done with that exhibit, Your Honour. And I

20 have just two final, brief areas.

21 Q. Sir, obviously when we looked at those documents, we saw that

22 there were seals on them, on or near the signature. Who kept the seal for

23 the ARK Crisis Staff? Was that your responsibility?

24 A. According to the statute, it was. However, we had an assistant.

25 She was the one who was in charge of keeping the seal.

Page 21799

1 Q. Was it a seal for the ARK Crisis Staff or a seal for the ARK

2 Assembly, or do you remember?

3 A. It was seal of the Assembly of the autonomous region. The Crisis

4 Staff never had its seal.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, the final area, if I could go into private

6 session to ask --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while,

8 please.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 21800

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Page 21801

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

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5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are back in open session. And

10 Mr. Cunningham hasn't got any further questions for you, which brings us

11 to the cross-examination. And you are now going to be cross-examined by

12 Ms. Korner, who is lead counsel in this case for the Prosecution. Your

13 duty as a witness, even if you are a witness of the Defence, produced by

14 the accused, your duty is to answer all the questions that Ms. Korner will

15 put to you as fully and as truthfully as you can, as possible, in

16 accordance with the oath that you took at the beginning of your testimony.

17 In other words, my duty is to make it clear to you that the fact

18 that you came here because the Defence brought you over to give testimony

19 does not entitle you to draw a distinction between Mr. Brdjanin and his

20 interests and the interests of the Prosecution. Your duty is to answer

21 all questions irrespective of where they are coming from, truthfully in

22 accordance with your oath. That's unless I dispense you from answering

23 any questions. In fact, if there are any questions that you think you

24 ought not to answer because of one reason or another, then you refer to

25 me, and I will consult with my two Judges, and we will take a decision on

Page 21802

1 whether you should answer that question or not.

2 Ms. Korner, please proceed.

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Korner:

4 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, the events of the spring to autumn 1992 must have

5 been some of the most dramatic that you have lived through. Is that

6 right?

7 A. I had even more dramatic moments later on.

8 Q. But 1992, April through to September, was the first time for you,

9 was it not, that you had been involved in a situation where conflict was

10 taking place in Bosnia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were in a position to see how the authorities were

13 attempting to deal with that conflict?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you came to this Court to give evidence, was it your

16 intention to try and assist the Court as much as you can with describing

17 what happened?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But you find yourself, is this correct, in a position where you

20 are wholly unable to remember the detail of those dramatic events?

21 A. Yes, it was a long time ago, Madam Prosecutor.

22 Q. When were you first asked to testify on behalf of Mr. Brdjanin?

23 A. I don't remember exactly.

24 Q. Well, was it a month ago, two months ago, two years ago?

25 A. I believe that it would be sooner two years than anything else,

Page 21803

1 but I can't say that for a fact. I can't remember exactly when it was.

2 Q. When you were asked to testify for Mr. Brdjanin, were you asked if

3 you had any documents available?

4 A. I believe so.

5 Q. And did you have any documents from which you could refresh your

6 memory about those events?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. You were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in July of

9 2001. Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Before coming to this court, were you able to either read any kind

12 of record of that interview or listen to any tape recording of that

13 interview?

14 A. Yes, I had an opportunity.

15 Q. What was it? Written or oral? In other words, did you hear a

16 tape or did you read it?

17 A. I just read, and I believe that it was only a part of it.

18 Q. So you read the part that was supplied you by the Defence?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: To inform the Court.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: He had access to his Rule 68 statement from us.

23 That's all we had from the Prosecutor, and I want to make that clear.

24 MS. KORNER: I understand that. And my inquiry is slightly

25 different directed.

Page 21804

1 Q. Did anybody in the authorities enable you to listen to your

2 interview? And by "the authorities," I mean the authorities in the

3 Republika Srpska.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, July of 2001 was not the first time, was it, that you had met

6 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You first met representatives, didn't you, in April of 1996?

9 A. Possibly.

10 Q. If I put the names of the people that you met to you, do you think

11 you would remember them?

12 A. No, I wouldn't.

13 Q. All right. Did they meet with you in the municipal building in

14 Mr. Radic's conference room?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And were you there, if you can remember, for something like two

17 hours?

18 A. I believe so.

19 Q. And were you asked questions then about the Autonomous Region of

20 Krajina Assembly and the Crisis Staff?

21 A. Yes, I think that we spoke about that as well.

22 Q. Did you tell the representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor

23 that the legal basis for the existence of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

24 was the Amendment 42 to Article 276 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

25 constitution?

Page 21805

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that was your understanding as a lawyer?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you also tell them that the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

5 Region began working when war broke out in Bosnia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, you were asked, weren't you, to provide documents in

8 connection with both the Assembly of the Autonomous Region, and then the

9 ARK -- then the Crisis Staff?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you provided a number of documents which related to the

12 assembly?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you remember the name Grant MacIntosh?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you have with you at this meeting a folder?

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. Which contained documents which you declined to give copies of to

19 the representatives?

20 A. No, no, I don't know.

21 Q. Are you sure about that?

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. Because they asked you, didn't they, if they could see the

24 documents that were in that folder, and you said that they didn't need to

25 see that?

Page 21806

1 A. Now I remember. They asked for my private folder. It was a

2 folder given to me by a client of mine who asked me to try and exchange

3 his property.

4 Q. Why had you brought that folder to a meeting with representatives

5 of the Office of the Prosecutor who were investigating the matters that

6 had occurred within the autonomous region?

7 A. I don't remember having had that folder with me.

8 Q. All right. I asked you whether you'd had a folder with you which

9 you declined to show the representatives what was in it, and you said you

10 remembered it was something to do with your private client.

11 A. No, no, what I'm saying is that I don't know whether I had that

12 particular folder with me as I came to this meeting.

13 Q. All right. Let's start again. Did you have a folder with you

14 which contained documents which you refused to let the representatives of

15 the Office of the Prosecutor see?

16 A. I don't remember whether I had this folder on me at the time.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Stop, Ms. Korner, because I'm getting

18 annoyed with this.

19 Earlier on, Ms. Korner asked you a very simple question, after

20 that you had stated that you couldn't remember having a folder, couldn't

21 remember having declined to give copies or to make available what you had

22 in that folder, after all that you said -- Ms. Korner told you: "Because

23 they asked you, didn't they, if they could see the documents in that

24 folder because you said that they didn't need to see that?" And you said:

25 "Now, I remember. They asked for my private folder. It was a folder

Page 21807

1 given to me by a client of mine who asked me to try and exchange his

2 property."

3 Did you have it with you or not? Because you didn't say you

4 remember now that you had a folder, but that you also was asked -- you

5 were asked to show what you had in that folder and that you declined to

6 show it. So you can't remember and forget at the same time. I mean,

7 you'll be the first one that I have come across that is capable of doing

8 that.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the following day, when they

10 arrived on the following day, they asked for a folder from a filing

11 cabinet. In the meantime, the client had come and taken the folder away.

12 I don't know whether I had that folder on me when I came to the meeting

13 with them. I can't remember that.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So when you said "now I remember." I'll read it out

15 again to you. When you were asked -- I repeat it again. Ms. Korner told

16 you: "Because they asked you, didn't they, if they could see the

17 documents in that folder and you said that they didn't need to see that?"

18 And your answer was, referring to a specific day and a specific incident

19 when you were in the office of Mr. Radic. And you answered: "Now I

20 remember. They asked for my private folder. It was a folder given to me

21 by a client of mine who asked me to try and exchange his property." They

22 wouldn't have asked you for that folder if you didn't have it with you,

23 would they?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. When I returned from that

25 office, there was a folder on a shelf, and then they inquired about that

Page 21808

1 folder. And then I told them, "I'm sorry, the folder contains some

2 private documents."

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, yes, please.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. You knew, didn't you, Mr. Blagojevic, that what the investigators

6 wanted was documents which related to the operation of the assembly, and

7 then the Crisis Staff.

8 A. Yes. And on that day, everything that was there was handed over.

9 Q. I want to ask you this, Mr. Blagojevic: Was what was in that

10 folder which you refused to let the representatives see, did that contain

11 the minutes of the meetings of the Crisis Staff of the region?

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. Are you sure?

14 A. I'm sure.

15 Q. And that's because according to you, no minutes were ever taken.

16 Is that right?

17 A. It's right.

18 Q. All right. Well, I'll come back to that a little later.

19 Now, I want to start with these -- your actual employment so that

20 we can try and make sense out of what you said yesterday. But before I do

21 that, can I just ask you this: During this period, were you reading the

22 newspaper Srpski Glas?

23 A. Rarely.

24 Q. Why? Why rarely? It was the only newspaper really available,

25 wasn't it, in Banja Luka?

Page 21809

1 A. That's true. But I read them very rarely.

2 Q. Why was that?

3 A. At that time, I was preparing for my bar exam, so I had no time.

4 Q. I'm talking about the period, please, from March 1992 until

5 September.

6 A. Yes, I understand.

7 Q. And that's when you were preparing for your bar exams?

8 A. Actually, yes, yes, it was the bar exam.

9 Q. I'm sorry. I thought you'd already qualified as a lawyer some

10 years ago, or some years before that.

11 A. What I had qualified before involved a specialist exam which is a

12 part of the bar exams.

13 Q. All right. I'm not going to press on that.

14 In addition to that, did you also, when there was electricity,

15 watch television?

16 A. If I had the time, yes.

17 Q. And listen to the radio?

18 A. Yes, I did when I had the time.

19 Q. Now, can we look, please, at how you came to be employed by the

20 assembly. What you said yesterday was, I'm afraid, slightly confused as

21 far as we're concerned. So can I ask you now to have a look, please, at a

22 document which is P6.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are some documents I'm afraid that

24 I'm going to ask the witness to look at which are not on my list, but that

25 one was.

Page 21810

1 Q. Now, that's an excerpt from the minutes of the 6th Session of the

2 Bosnian Krajina Community of Municipalities on the 6th of September. And

3 if we go to item number 3 -- I'm sorry, usher, you have to pull it up on

4 the agenda, right at the bottom of the page. I'm sorry, usher, you have

5 to put it up so that we see the bottom of the page. On mine, it's all on

6 one page. Can you turn it over. Number 3, okay. Thank you.

7 "After the Bosnian Krajina Community of Municipalities Assembly

8 president made the introductory remarks, Boro Blagojevic, a lawyer who has

9 worked for several years in the municipal assembly as the director of the

10 department for inspection and determining of public revenues was

11 unanimously elected secretary of the Bosnian Krajina Community of

12 Municipalities Assembly." Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You started work on the 6th of September. It states there you had

15 worked for several years in the municipal assembly as the director of the

16 department for inspection and determining of public revenues. Was that

17 the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka?

18 A. No. That was the Bosanski Brod Municipality. And I wasn't the

19 director. I worked first as an inspector, and then became head of that

20 tax department.

21 Q. All right. It may not matter.

22 Now, you told Mr. Cunningham yesterday that you worked for some

23 months, or that's the way it seemed, as the secretary to the community of

24 municipalities. Well, now, can you have a look, please, at P12.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours, if Ms. Korner has an updated list

Page 21811

1 of exhibits, I'd like to get it during the break because 12 wasn't on the

2 list.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have an updated list, Ms. Korner?

4 MS. KORNER: I don't. I'm afraid I just picked up some

5 scrawled -- they are all going to go on the ELMO. And in fact, some of

6 them were on Mr. Cunningham's list but weren't used by him.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: If this at any time causes you a problem,

8 Mr. Cunningham, let us know. But I don't believe it should.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, at the break, I can write up the extra

10 ones.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. Do you agree that's the minutes of the assembly of the community

14 of municipalities on the 16th of September? And item number 1 on the

15 agenda, the adoption of a decision to declare the Autonomous Region of

16 Krajina.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you present at that meeting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So all in all, you worked for the association of the

21 community -- I'm sorry. The association of Bosnian Krajina municipalities

22 for a total period of ten days?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And after that, you were the secretary to the Assembly of the

25 Autonomous Region of Krajina?

Page 21812

1 A. Yes. Because it was only a question of renaming the autonomous

2 region. It used to be the association of municipalities, and it was

3 renamed autonomous region, but the responsibilities and duties remained

4 the same.

5 Q. Yes, but as a lawyer, there was a difference, wasn't there?

6 Because the autonomous regions, as such, did not exist under the BiH

7 constitution.

8 A. Correct. The constitution speaks of the association of

9 municipalities.

10 Q. All right. And I want to come on to the legalities of all of this

11 in a moment. But in any event, am I right also in thinking that your

12 acquiring of this job as secretary to whatever it was called, assembly or

13 community, was obtained for you by Predrag Radic?

14 A. No, no. That's not through Predrag Radic.

15 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Radic about this before you

16 took the job as secretary?

17 A. No. I had talked to his chef du cabinet. In fact, I made

18 inquiries before that about vacancies in the Municipal Assembly. I was

19 interested.

20 Q. So it's wrong, is it, to say that you found out about the job of

21 secretary at the end of August 1991 when you ran into Mr. Radic at the

22 Municipal Assembly?

23 A. No. I found out about it earlier, in August. That's when I found

24 out about the vacancy in the Self-managed Regional Community of

25 Banja Luka. That's how it was registered it the court.

Page 21813

1 Q. All right. This is a simple question. Did you have any

2 discussions with Mr. Radic about this position?

3 A. No, no. None at all. I didn't even know Mr. Radic at the time.

4 Q. All right. Can we look now at what your job description was.

5 Could you have a look, please, at the statute of the assembly rather than

6 of the Community of Bosnian Krajina Municipalities, which is P80, although

7 I accept that it's identically worded.

8 And can you have a look, please, and can we have up Article Number

9 30, which is on page 10 of the translation.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Does that set out the duties of the secretary, to assist the

12 president in his work; supervise the preparation of sessions or

13 prepared - I'm not sure that's a good translation, but anyhow - the

14 executive council..."

15 Now, did your job, therefore, include helping to draft the agenda?

16 Helping the president to draft the agenda?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Making sure that items which were suggested by other members of

19 the assembly were communicated to the president, items for the agenda, I

20 should say?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Making sure that the sessions were properly minuted and recorded?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. For that, did you employ a technical secretary or was there a

25 technical secretary employed?

Page 21814

1 A. I believe that at the beginning, there wasn't one. And later on,

2 I can't remember when it was. I believe it was in March that we may have

3 employed somebody. But I can't remember. In any case, up to then, there

4 was nobody. But there was a secretary to Mr. Kupresanin. However, she

5 was not an employee of Krajina. She was an employee of the municipal

6 assembly who would sometimes help me with some things because I was on my

7 own obviously.

8 Q. All right. But the importance of minutes of these meetings was so

9 that it could be seen how decisions had been arrived at. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. We would draw up minutes, and then this thing here.

11 Q. Who had spoken either in favour or against a motion, a decision?

12 A. Yes, right.

13 Q. And this was standard, was it not, for any body of authority in

14 the former Yugoslavia, municipal assembly, committees, whatever?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, as secretary, your job was an important one, was it not?

17 A. Well, I don't know whether it was important or not because at that

18 time, there was no proper financing of the municipality, of the municipal

19 assembly. It did not really operate as a body of authority. Can you

20 imagine the assembly of the autonomous region which has only one employee?

21 It's not even serious. It was simply unable to function as an important

22 institution.

23 Q. Whether or not it actually was able to function is neither here

24 nor there. Within the terms of that assembly and its statute, your job as

25 secretary was an important one. Isn't that right?

Page 21815

1 A. Well, I was the only one who had this responsibility. I was the

2 one who was in charge of preparing all that, and I could not transfer my

3 duties to anyone else.

4 Q. Now, while we're dealing with the statute, can you have a look,

5 please, at Article Number 16.

6 That article was also in the statute of the Bosnian communities,

7 but says: "The Autonomous Region of Krajina shall monitor the situation

8 and coordinate activities for the organisation and implementation of

9 preparations for All Peoples' Defence in accordance with the law,

10 municipal defence plans, and the republican defence plan."

11 That article was something that did not appear, did it, in any of

12 the earlier associations of communities?

13 A. I don't remember whether that language also featured in the

14 statute of the association of municipalities.

15 Q. No, no, it did. But I'm talking about the earlier ones. Before

16 the Krajina association of municipalities, the earlier associations of

17 municipalities allowed for under the law did not have any provisions as to

18 defence, did they? They were economic only.

19 A. I think that's right.

20 Q. When you took the job, did you read the statute of the

21 association?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Did you notice this particular provision?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. Did you query why an association that was only economic should

Page 21816

1 have something in its statute about defence?

2 A. Yes, I did, because it did sound odd.

3 Q. And who did you ask about it?

4 A. I didn't ask anyone. It's just that it seemed a little odd to me

5 as I was reading article by article. I wondered to myself.

6 Q. But you didn't think that you should ask, perhaps, Mr. Kupresanin,

7 or Mr. Brdjanin, the vice-president of the association, why an economic

8 association had something in it about defence?

9 A. No, I didn't ask.

10 Q. In December of -- I'm sorry, in November -- no, I better go back.

11 In December of 1991, did the constitutional court of Bosnia rule upon that

12 particular provision?

13 A. I think a motion was made to review the constitutionality of this

14 decision. But I'm not sure of the outcome.

15 Q. At the time, would you have been informed as the secretary and as

16 a lawyer of what the decision was?

17 A. No, I wasn't.

18 Q. So you can't remember anything about the decision of the

19 constitutional court?

20 A. No, because I did not receive Official Gazettes of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina. I really didn't.

22 Q. All right. But as far as you were concerned, after -- certainly

23 after November 1991, the assembly of the autonomous region was a legally

24 constituted body, having been approved by the second assembly of the

25 Serbian people.

Page 21817

1 A. Yes. On the 21st of November. I think that was the date, but I'm

2 not sure.

3 Q. You're absolutely right, Mr. Blagojevic. It was the 21st of

4 November. So as far as you were concerned, the assembly was legal and

5 your job was legal.

6 A. Well, in view of the fact that assemblymen had approved the

7 statute and they were elected assemblymen, deputies from assemblies

8 adopted the statute which was verified, I worked there, I had no other

9 job.

10 Q. I understand that. No, no. I mean, there's no trick about this,

11 Mr. Blagojevic. Regardless of whether or not the declaration of the

12 Serbian republic was legal, but as far as you were concerned, the Serbian

13 assembly, 21st of November, had verified all the autonomous regions?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You told us that the assembly contained not just Serb delegates.

16 That's what you told us yesterday.

17 A. That's true.

18 Q. All right. Can you have a look, please, at a list that you, in

19 fact, provided to the Office of the Prosecutor, which is Exhibit P61.

20 That is on my list, yes.

21 Do you remember giving the representatives this list?

22 A. Probably.

23 Q. All right. Now, I want you to just have a quick look through it.

24 Actually I'll tell you what --

25 MS. KORNER: If Your Honours will take the break now.

Page 21818

1 Q. The question I want you to answer after the break is this,

2 Mr. Blagojevic: If you can point to any delegate who is not of Serb

3 nationality.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think there shouldn't be any problem with

5 having the witness remain in possession of that document.

6 MS. KORNER: We've got lots of copies, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: During the break, have a coffee. Go through it.

8 Just don't mark -- or at least we can have a photocopy of it, and to help

9 you, you can mark on the photocopy, and then you can come back to us and

10 indicate who was not of Serb ethnicity. All right? The usher will make a

11 photocopy of the document. You go through it during the break and do

12 exactly what I have told you to do.

13 Yes, usher, you may escort the witness, prepare the photocopy for

14 him. And we'll have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

17 MS. KORNER:

18 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, you've had a chance now to look at this document.

19 Can you tell me - if I can find my own copy - anyone who's not a Serb or

20 from a declared Serbian municipality?

21 A. Here under Prnjavor municipality, there is Mehmed Sabic --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Usher, could you just put on the ELMO

23 the document from the very -- just start from page 1, but at the top,

24 because -- let's -- okay.

25 What I require from you as you start mentioning names, since the

Page 21819

1 list also shows a number plus the name plus the municipality, you will

2 follow the same order. For example, if you're going to refer to number

3 12, Mehmed Sabic, you would say representative number 12, Mehmed Sabic

4 from the municipality of Prnjavor. And then you go on from there one by

5 one as you identify them. All right? Go ahead. And I don't think

6 Ms. Korner needs to interrupt you each time. So you can go down the list.

7 Starting from the top, each time there is one from non-Serb ethnicity, you

8 just indicate him to us, or her.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 12, Prnjavor Municipality;

10 number 27, Bosanska Gradiska; number 31 --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, mention the name. 27, Stjepan Kozjan from

12 Bosanska Gradiska. Would this be a Muslim or a Croat?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this person is a

14 Croat.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go on.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 31, Bosanska Gradiska,

17 Edin Biscevic, a Bosniak. Number 32, Dzevdet Kozarcanin in Bosanska

18 Gradiska, a Bosniak. Number 52, Nezir Karahodzic, a Bosniak. Number --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: From Glamoc.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Glamoc. Number 58 from

21 Bosanska Dubica, Bakir Karabegovic. And I have not identified anybody

22 else.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

24 Yes, back to you, Ms. Korner.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

Page 21820

1 Q. Sir, with the exception of the six people you've identified,

2 everybody else was a Serb?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you give us a date of this list? There's no date on it. A

5 rough idea of when this list would have been compiled.

6 A. I believe that this is a list that belonged to the association of

7 municipalities. Those were the delegates that represented the association

8 of municipalities.

9 Q. Well, it actually says: "List of representatives in the Krajina

10 Autonomous Region Assembly."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But you mean that the representatives never changed over the

13 period?

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right. And Prijedor, if you look at page -- the third page,

16 numbers 116 through to 122, can you tell us, please, who, if you can read

17 it, who is the representative at number 120? And 121?

18 A. 120 is Pilipovic. And 121 is Kurnoga.

19 Q. Number 119, that's Milomir Stakic, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Prijedor had a number of Muslims, did it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It was a Muslim majority municipality, wasn't it?

24 A. I wouldn't know whether that was the case.

25 Q. But only Serbs, all these people who attended were Serbs, weren't

Page 21821

1 they?

2 A. I believe that at that time, Prijedor was not a member of the

3 assembly of the region. I really don't know how that it happened that

4 these people were even able to attend the sessions, and I can also see

5 here -- I don't know whether this means under 117, 118, 119, I don't know

6 what this means. There's some sort of signs.

7 Q. Wasn't this, in fact, an organisation for gathering together the

8 Serbs in the municipalities of the ARK?

9 A. According to the statute, the assembly was supposed to be composed

10 of the elected representatives of all the municipalities. I don't know

11 whether these people here are elected representatives who were elected at

12 the sessions of their respective municipal assemblies.

13 Q. Forget about what the statute says. In reality, and you were

14 there on a daily basis, Mr. Blagojevic, wasn't this an organisation

15 intended to pull together the Serbs within the municipalities of the

16 Krajina?

17 A. I don't know whether that was the objective.

18 Q. Well, you worked on a daily basis, didn't you, with

19 Mr. Kupresanin?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Didn't it become apparent to you from the meetings and from your

22 dealings with Mr. Kupresanin that that was what this organisation was for?

23 A. Given my job, which was to prepare the meetings and the room where

24 it was to be held, and then compile the minutes, I really wouldn't be able

25 to tell you what the intention was.

Page 21822

1 Q. When you had your meetings with Mr. Kupresanin, as the president

2 of this assembly and of this region, didn't it become apparent to you that

3 this organisation was nothing more than an excuse to pull together the

4 Serbs in the municipalities?

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object, Your Honour. He has been

6 asked that question twice, and twice he said he didn't know.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection sustained. Or if you want,

8 Ms. Korner, rephrase the question in some other way. But basically, this

9 is a repetition, an exact repetition of what you had asked him before.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that may be right. I thought I was

11 being rather lenient as far as Mr. Cunningham was concerned, but I'll move

12 on because I don't want to waste any more time.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. I want to go back to what you told us about how you came to get

16 this job. And you told us -- you denied emphatically that it had nothing

17 to do whatsoever with Mr. Radic.

18 MS. KORNER: Sanction is not working, Your Honour, so we'll put it

19 on the ELMO.

20 Q. Could you have a copy of the translation of your interview with

21 the Office of the Prosecutor. Could you have, first of all, page 4 of the

22 English on the ELMO. And B/C/S, we'll give you page -- I suppose we

23 should have marked it.

24 Yes, sorry, I can't for the moment see.

25 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour forgive me. We were going to put

Page 21823

1 it up over the ELMO, but we discovered over the break it's not working

2 properly. Yes, okay, thank you, yes. It's page 5 in the B/C/S. Can we

3 have page 4 on the ELMO, please.

4 Q. Now, if we look at the bottom of our page 4, and if you can find

5 the part where the investigator, Mr. Inayat, asked you: "Okay, are you

6 aware that at that point when you moved to Banja Luka, there was already

7 an institution here in Banja Luka called the Community of the Bosanska

8 Krajina Municipalities?" Your reply: "No, I didn't know about it."

9 Mr. Inayat asked you,"When did you learn about it?"

10 "I found out about it at the end of August, when I bumped into the

11 president of the municipality, Mr. Radic, when I went to the Municipal

12 Assembly in Banja Luka."

13 Do you see that?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's on the next --

15 MS. KORNER: Yes, it's on the next page. I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: What we need to see for the time being is the top of

17 page 5.

18 Thank you, Judge Taya.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer, please.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. Yes. What I want to understand -- well, first of all, do you

22 agree that's what you said?

23 A. No. It says here that I met Mr. Zoran Joldzic, not the president

24 of the Municipal Assembly, Mr. Radic.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's the first time that we've had

Page 21824

1 this problem this way because of course the interview was recorded in

2 English, and this is a translation that we had done.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's what it says here.

4 MS. KORNER: Can I have the page back for a moment.

5 No.

6 Q. Could you have a look, please, page 5, line 7. Sorry, line 12.

7 A. Yes, it says here: "I learned that at the end of August when I

8 bumped into the then chief of the cabinet of the president of

9 municipality, Mr. Radic."

10 Q. I'm sorry. In your translation, and it may well be we have to get

11 back the original tape for this, but does it say "I found out about it" -

12 i.e. the Bosnian Krajina Municipalities - "at the end of August when I

13 bumped into president of the municipality, Mr. Radic"?

14 A. No, not President Radic, but the chief of his cabinet, and this is

15 what it says here.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Can I have a look at the B/C/S version, please.

17 Yes, basically, I have a confirmation from Judge Janu who can

18 understand the language that what indeed is stated here is that the

19 witness met with the chef du cabinet of President Radic.

20 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour. I do apologise. I apologise to

21 Mr. Blagojevic. I'm making a bad point. We'll check the tape, but I had

22 hoped that we had already done a check between the two versions.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's no major --

24 MS. KORNER: All right.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Ms. Korner.

Page 21825

1 MS. KORNER:

2 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, it wasn't Mr. Radic you met, but the chef du

3 cabinet. And who was the chef du cabinet?

4 A. It was Mr. Zoran Joldzic.

5 Q. And he was the person who suggested you should apply for the job.

6 Is that right?

7 A. He told me that there was a vacancy in the self-management

8 interest community. I asked him whether there was a vacancy in the

9 municipal assembly, and he told me that there was one but that that one

10 was in the self-management interest community.

11 Q. All right. Well, let's move on because clearly the point I want

12 to make is not a good one.

13 All right. Now, we've dealt with the membership of the assembly.

14 The assembly itself did have actual power, didn't it?

15 A. According to the statute, it did.

16 Q. Yes. No, no. In reality, it had actual power, didn't it?

17 A. It was not organised at the time. It had just one professional

18 member of staff, and it was really hard to see it as an organisation that

19 could function properly.

20 Q. Forget about for the moment whether it actually was well organised

21 or disorganised; it had actual, real power, didn't it?

22 A. In keeping with the statute, it did. Again, in keeping with the

23 statute.

24 Q. Yes, the statute gave it power. That's right, isn't it?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 21826

1 Q. The autonomous regions were verified on November the 21st?

2 A. Yes, I think so.

3 Q. And it exercised the power that the statute gave it, didn't it?

4 A. In keeping with the statute.

5 Q. All right. Well, can you have a look, please, now at Document

6 P -- sorry, I'm just going to get this right. P159. Again, I think it's

7 on my list. 'Tis, yes.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Actually, it isn't.

9 MS. KORNER: According to the list Ms. Gustin is waving, it's

10 there.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I stand corrected. I apologise.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. Now, this is a decision dated the 27th of April 1992. And can you

15 have a look, please, there at the stamp, and perhaps you can tell us

16 whether you recognise Mr. Kupresanin's signature.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You have no difficulty in recognising his signature?

19 A. No, he was closer to me.

20 Q. The -- while we're on the subject of signatures, although I will

21 come back to it, if it's not signed by the person whose signature block

22 appears on it, it has the word "za," doesn't it, by it, which I think

23 means "on behalf of"?

24 A. Yes, that was the customary procedure.

25 Q. And when a decision was sent to the Official Gazette, did it have

Page 21827

1 by the signature the letters "SR"?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know.

3 Q. All right. I'll come back to that.

4 All right. Mr. Kupresanin, on the 27th of April 1992, is making a

5 decision, or the assembly is, signed by the president I should say that

6 there should be a special police detachment formed within the Banja Luka

7 security services. And the explanation for it is given at the back of

8 that decision. Do you agree?

9 A. Yes, that is what it says here.

10 Q. And indeed, a special police -- a special-purpose police

11 detachment was formed, wasn't it?

12 A. I don't know. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you not remember --

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. Did you not remember an enormous parade in Banja Luka in May of

16 this particular detachment?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. So can we take it that it was formed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to look a little bit more at the powers of

21 this assembly. Could you now have a look, please, at P118. Now, this

22 should be an assembly you do remember, Mr. Blagojevic. If you look,

23 please, at the end of the conclusions, does your signature as secretary

24 appear there?

25 A. No. There's no signature. It just says "secretary" here.

Page 21828

1 Q. All right. I'm sorry. I haven't got the B/C/S in front of me.

2 But your name appears there, doesn't it?

3 A. Yes, I was the secretary of the regional assembly.

4 Q. Yes. In fact, this appears to be a copy because there are no

5 signatures on either, either of you or Mr. Kupresanin.

6 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour just give me one moment. I just

7 want to check.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this a document which is contested by the

9 Defence?

10 MS. KORNER: I'm just checking, Your Honour, that it was one that

11 was given to us by Mr. Blagojevic himself, but I can't see.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 118, isn't it? Now I'm trying to look at the

13 provenance.

14 MS. KORNER: It's, Your Honour, I'm told -- yes, it was contested,

15 so perhaps we can go through it then in a little bit more detail. It was

16 used by Dr. Donia, interestingly enough, on the -- I see, it's the same as

17 P35. Just a moment. Thank you. It's one of those, I'm afraid, where we

18 gave two numbers, and we don't have the provenance of this.

19 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, I want to go through this then in a little detail.

20 Do you remember this meeting? It was the meeting attended by

21 Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Koljevic, and Mr. Ostojic.

22 A. This was probably at the meeting of the assembly of the autonomous

23 region.

24 Q. I agree. That's what it says at the top. I'm asking you if you

25 now remember a meeting of the assembly attended by the most senior Bosnian

Page 21829

1 Serbs in the government, or some of the most senior?

2 A. Yes. What I can see in the minutes is correct. They were indeed

3 there.

4 Q. Yes. Forget about the minutes for a moment. I'm asking you now

5 if you recall, actually can visualise, that meeting attended by all -- I'm

6 sorry, by some of the most senior Bosnian Serbs?

7 A. It was a session of the assembly of the autonomous region. They

8 were present, and they addressed the representatives who were there.

9 Q. And do you remember that the reason they were there is because

10 there was talk of the Krajina becoming an independent republic joining

11 together with the Croatian Krajina, the RSK?

12 A. What I can't see this -- what I can't see here is when it was

13 held, the date.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: 29th of February of 1992, Mr. Blagojevic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a session of the regional

16 assembly where the deputies or the MPs wanted to separate themselves and

17 form an independent state of Krajina. That's what happened at that

18 session.

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. Right.

21 A. That was where the clash happened between the region and the

22 centre.

23 Q. And this is one of the documents, in fact, isn't it,

24 Mr. Blagojevic, that you gave to Mr. Grant MacIntosh?

25 A. Correct.

Page 21830

1 Q. Thank you. Now, what I want to look at, please, in this, there

2 was a discussion in which Mr. Kupresanin and Mr. Brdjanin spoke. And then

3 the conclusion, can you look at that, please. It's on the second page.

4 Mr. Cizmovic, the coordinator in the Serbian government of BH recalled the

5 that the Autonomous Region of Krajina can draw its autonomy from the

6 recently adopted constitution of the Serbian Republic and that if a

7 republic of Krajina were declared, all Serbs outside this territory would

8 suffer from the consequences of this decision.

9 In other words, Mr. Blagojevic, what Mr. Cizmovic was emphasising

10 was the Autonomous Region of Krajina had sufficient power under the

11 constitution and did not need -- and under the Serb constitution and

12 therefore didn't need to become an independent republic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And just so -- if we look at the next conclusion, we see there's

15 conclusions. And then over the next page for us in English: "The

16 deputies in the assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina accepted the

17 constitution.

18 "Two, the status of the Autonomous Region of Krajina will be

19 incorporated into the constitution of the Republic of the Serbian People

20 of BH in accordance with its practical needs in order to achieve its free

21 economic development.

22 "Three, establish immediately strict control of the territory

23 [Realtime transcript read in error "Territorial Defence"] of the

24 autonomous region."

25 What was meant by that, Mr. Blagojevic?

Page 21831

1 I'm sorry. I see it's come out. It should read -- I didn't say

2 Territorial Defence. "Establish strict control of the territory of the

3 autonomous region." I think that has been properly translated.

4 What was meant by that conclusion, Mr. Blagojevic? "Establish

5 immediately strict control..." Strict control of what?

6 A. I really don't know.

7 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, I want you to think hard. You were present at

8 this meeting. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It was a meeting of major importance, wasn't it?

11 A. Well, in light of the number of those present, it certainly was.

12 Q. What was discussed that resulted in number 3 of the conclusions

13 being established immediately "strict control of the territory"?

14 A. I really can't remember. I don't know what that meant.

15 Q. I want you to think about it one more time.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object. He's thought about it and

17 answered twice. He says he can't remember.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it deserves a further -- a little bit of

19 thinking, Mr. Cunningham.

20 Think about the third time and try and answer the question,

21 please. Can you follow the first two decisions? Can you recall those

22 first two decisions and follow the logic in them based on the discussions

23 that took place? Let's take them one by one. Do you recall the deputies

24 present there accepting the constitution of the Republic of the Serbian

25 People of BH in full, without any reservation?

Page 21832

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you recall the deputies, all of them, because

3 this was a unanimous decision with not even abstentions, 148 attended, out

4 of 161 if I remember well, do you remember them deciding that, "The status

5 of the ARK will be incorporated into" - status or the statute? I suppose

6 it's the statute - "will be incorporated into the constitution of the

7 Republic of the Serbian People of BH in accordance with with its practical

8 needs in order to achieve its free economic development." Do you recall

9 this decision being taken?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says here that they

11 accepted the constitution in full. Accepted. That means they had no

12 jurisdiction to adopt the constitution on the Serbian Republic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not answering --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rather, the republic of the Serbian

15 people. Only MPs could do that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember the deputies present at that meeting

17 agreeing, voting in favour of the decision that the status or statute of

18 the Autonomous Region of Krajina will be incorporated into the

19 constitution of the Republic of the Serbian People of BH in accordance

20 with its practical needs in order to achieve its free economic

21 development? Do you remember this decision being taken?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, since they endorsed the

23 constitution, and the constitution emphasised the existence of regions,

24 then they probably did.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do these first two decisions follow from the records

Page 21833

1 of the debate that you see on the previous page, or pages? If you look at

2 the minutes and see what Vojo Kupresanin said, what Brdjanin said, what

3 Cizmovic said, what Karadzic said, are the first two decisions a natural

4 and logical consequence of that debate? And of the statements made?

5 Sorry to have taken him over from you for a while, Ms. Korner.

6 MS. KORNER: It's quite all right, Your Honour.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's look at the decision. It didn't fall from

9 heaven. Must have been debated, too. Read that decision, please.

10 Decision number 3.

11 Do you tie it up, do you connect it with the first two decisions,

12 with the previous two decisions? Do you remember that decision being

13 taken?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was adopted on the 29th of

15 February 1992. And it probably fitted into the entire discussion that

16 took place at that session.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I invite you to look back at the previous two

18 pages where you see the record minutes of the statements made by

19 Kupresanin, Brdjanin, Brdjanin again, Karadzic, Cizmovic, and Karadzic

20 again. Take your time. Read the decision again.

21 And can you now try to explain what it means on the basis of that

22 debate.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't remember.

24 MS. KORNER:

25 Q. Was there a discussion in the assembly about the Serbs seizing

Page 21834

1 power in municipalities where they did not hold overall power?

2 A. I really can't recall. But that session was held precisely due to

3 this clash between the region and the centre. And whether they debated

4 this issue or not, I can't remember. Because it was really a major

5 conflict.

6 Q. But the strict control of the territory of the ARK was to be

7 established by whom?

8 A. I really don't know. I don't know what was meant.

9 Q. Do you have an expression in the Serbian language, "see no evil,

10 hear no evil?"

11 A. Yes, I understand the meaning, yes.

12 Q. And is that what you're trying to persuade us, Mr. Blagojevic, of

13 today?

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Excuse me, Judge. I'm going to object to the

15 form of the question. Although put nicely, it is argumentative with the

16 witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, rephrase your question, Ms. Korner, please.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, you're not going to finish today. But I want you

20 to think about this tomorrow -- until tomorrow.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Who drafted this third decision and the minutes?

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. Mr. Blagojevic, who drafted it?

24 A. I drew up the minutes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So do I take it you drew up -- you formulate a

Page 21835

1 sentence which doesn't make sense to you, which you say you don't even

2 know what it is all about?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I prepared a draft minutes

4 based on the discussion. And then at the next session, my draft is

5 presented to the delegates, and then it is up to them to accept my

6 proposal, my draft, or not.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but when you wrote "establish

8 control immediately -- strict control of the territory of the Autonomous

9 Region of Krajina," what were you writing? What were you stating? What

10 were you reporting?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember what the discussion

12 was about. I can't remember what was discussed, what gave rise to this

13 item 3. I don't remember the gist of the discussion.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. Mr. Blagojevic --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm going to read part of the minutes, unless you

17 want to read it yourself, Ms. Korner.

18 I start with Jovan Cizmovic, Mr. Blagojevic.

19 The interpreters would bear with me a couple of minutes, and we'll

20 wind up after this question.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: "Jovan Cizmovic, coordinator of the Serbian

23 government of BH recalled that the Autonomous Region of Krajina can draw

24 its autonomy from the recently adopted constitution of the Serbian

25 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that if a republic of Krajina were

Page 21836

1 declared, all Serbs outside this territory would suffer from the

2 consequences of this decision. Radovan Karadzic stressed that it would be

3 a crime against the Krajina if it were declared a republic. Those who

4 advocate such childish ideas are exposing the Serbian people to trouble.

5 The Bosnian Krajina does not need any national councils, since it has

6 legally elected organs, and the republican Serbian authorities are fully

7 functioning."

8 Does it give you a lead as to what was decided in the part where

9 you report that a decision was taken to establish immediately strict

10 control over the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll stop there and continue tomorrow, Ms. Korner.

13 MS. KORNER: May I just perhaps ask Mr. Blagojevic before tomorrow

14 over the afternoon to think about what happened during those meetings of

15 the Crisis Staff, because he is going to be asked further questions

16 tomorrow.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I need an updated exhibit list from

19 the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I take it that you will hand it --

21 MS. KORNER: I will, Your Honour, yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Blagojevic. You'll

23 return to this courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00. In the meantime,

24 Mr. Usher will escort you. Thank you.

25 I should like again once more to thank the interpreters, the

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1 technicians and all the staff for staying with us a few minutes beyond the

2 scheduled time limit. I thank you. And we stand adjourned until tomorrow

3 morning.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of

6 October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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