1 Tuesday, 4 November 2003.
2 [Open Session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good afternoon, everybody. Madam Registrar,
6 could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon. Case Number
8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.
10 Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow in a language that you can
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I can.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please be seated.
14 And Madam Korner, appearances for the Prosecution.
15 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. Animated conversation with
16 Ms. Gustin about exhibits.
17 It's Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise Gustin,
18 case manager. Good afternoon.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you. Appearances for
20 Radoslav Brdjanin.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,
22 with David Cunningham, and Aleksandar Vujic.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you.
24 Any preliminaries before we proceed? Right. Usher, thank you.
25 As I said, we will need to stop just before 5.00. So
1 Madam Registrar, if you could think between now and when we should have a
2 break, when we should have a break, if we could have just one break, it
3 would be better.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I suggest, why don't we break at 20
5 minutes to 4.00, until 4.00, and then 4.00 until 5.00.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's perfect. Thank you.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, too.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's agreeable to you, I understand, Mr. Ackerman,
10 because I did not hear you complain.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I almost never complain about anything.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, I know. Everyone talks about it actually.
13 Mr. Ackerman's synonymous with no complaints.
14 Mr. Radic is here.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: You reckon you need how long, Mr. Ackerman? Another
17 hour? Hour and a half?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm going to try for an hour, Judge. The problem
19 is without the ability to use something like Sanction, it's going to be
20 tedious just dealing with documents, dragging them back and forth. But
21 we're working on it.
22 MS. KORNER: I thought there were no complaints.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: No, that wasn't a complaint. That was just
24 answering His Honour's question.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But to think of it, for two years, he never used it
1 and it never was a problem, and that today that he cannot use it, it has
2 become a problem.
3 Mr. Radic, good afternoon to you. We are proceeding with your
4 testimony today. May I remind you that you are testifying under oath and
5 on the basis of the solemn declaration, in other words, that you entered
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to stand up?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, you are a professional man, so I don't need
9 to waste my words. You are under oath. You are going to continue
10 testifying. Mr. Ackerman will proceed with his direct. Please.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 WITNESS: PREDRAG RADIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examined by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Radic. Welcome back.
18 A. Good afternoon, thank you.
19 Q. When we stopped yesterday, we were dealing with the subject of
20 dismissals and the June 22nd, 1992 decision of the ARK Crisis Staff in
21 that regard. What I want to do now is look at some documents which
22 indicate that a municipality or two may have paid some attention to that
23 document. I just want you to notice them. If you look at first of all
24 P1879. Well, that's nowhere near the document that I was looking for.
25 P1879 should be a completely different document. I think there's another
1 one, the same document is also P255, if that helps. I think it has got
2 two different --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: 255 we saw yesterday, and that's the document, the
4 decision of the ARK Crisis Staff purportedly signed by Radoslav Brdjanin.
5 And the witness said he wouldn't -- couldn't recognise his signature.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: That's not the one.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: But that is 255.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. 1879 is the one we need.
9 Q. Okay, you should have a document dated 25 June 1992, three days
10 after the 22 June ARK Crisis Staff document, which is a document directed
11 to the ARK Crisis Staff regarding implementation of the 22 June order.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and if I may add at this point, this is why you
13 got confused with P255, because decision number 03-531/92 is precisely the
14 decision that is reported in Exhibit 255.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Exactly, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's move ahead.
17 MR. ACKERMAN:
18 Q. If you'll look at this, the crisis staff in Petrovac is telling
19 the crisis staff of the autonomous region that they have implemented that
20 22 June decision. If you look, for instance, going down to a paragraph
21 after the indented paragraphs, it says: "Speaking about the employees of
22 Serb nationality..." Do you see that? Do you see the part I'm referring
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before we go on, I wonder if we could
25 ask whether Mr. Radic has ever seen this document. Because if he hasn't,
1 then I'm not sure how he's supposed to be able to comment on it.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Well, he can still comment on it because he is
3 seeing it now. But your question is very pertinent. Did you see this
4 document before?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the first time?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time, yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And are you in a position to comment on it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is too short a time for me to on
10 it. The only thing I can see is the people of non-Serb ethnicity were
11 dismissed from the public security station as well as employees of the
12 municipal assembly. All of them in the administration but one. As far as
13 the Serb workers are concerned, according to our knowledge from -- as for
14 the employees of the Serb ethnicity, according to our information, in all
15 the public enterprises and companies, people have already been sacked from
16 these jobs cited in item 1 of the decision. All the employees cited in
17 paragraph 3, item 1. As for the units of the Serb -- BiH Serb Republic
18 Army, the steps set by AR Krajina Crisis Staff are in the stage of being
20 Since taking into account that not all staff could be dismissed
21 before the necessary takeover could be carried out.
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. Mr. Radic, if you sit here and read all these documents to us,
24 you'll be here until Friday.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Until Friday of next week.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: I just had one question about this document.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You tell me when to stop.
3 MR. ACKERMAN:
4 Q. Okay. Stop.
5 From now on, when I show you a document, wait for me to ask you a
6 question about it, and I will point you to the part of it that I'm
7 interested in. Feel free, however, to read the document any time you feel
8 it's necessary for you to do so. But don't read us to us, that just taxes
9 the interpreters unnecessarily, because we do have translations of all
10 these documents.
11 The only part of this one that I'm interested in is that paragraph
12 that reads: "Speaking about employees of Serb nationality, all the
13 employees cited in paragraph 3, item 1 of the decision have already been
14 sacked from those jobs cited in item 1 in all public enterprises and
15 institutions." In other words, even though Petrovac says that what
16 they're doing is complying with that June 22nd decision, they are pointing
17 out that they already had sacked all those people before that decision
18 even came out. Correct?
19 A. Mr. Rajko Novakovic, the signatory of this document, he is the
20 president of the Municipal Assembly of Petrovac. So he must have done
21 this even before he received this instruction from the crisis staff.
22 However, there's one confusing thing here in the last paragraph. He
23 informs that the crisis staff has dismissed soldiers, members of the army.
24 I don't know where this authority comes from. How could he also dismiss
25 soldiers? Because the dismissals of soldiers could only be done by the
1 army command and not any civilian organ of authority. In this case, the
2 president of the Municipal Assembly of Petrovac. Unfortunately, you will
3 not be able to get his statement because he was killed in the early days
4 of the war.
5 Q. I want you to look now at the next document. It's P1837.
6 A. I must say that this document is not very legible. It's very hard
7 for me to read it.
8 Q. What I'm -- the only thing I'm really interested in with regard to
9 this document is that it is a document from Petrovac, that it's dated 29
10 June 1992, that it refers to the 22 decision -- 22 June decision of the
11 ARK Crisis Staff, and it actually grants leave without pay to a worker by
12 the name of Senada Mehdin who apparently was laid off in accordance with
13 the ARK Crisis Staff decision. I don't know if you can see that from the
14 illegible copy you've got, but I tell you that's what it says.
15 A. What was your question, sir?
16 Q. Just -- I just wanted you to see the document, and in preparation
17 for some additional questions I will ask you later, to know that this is
18 another case where there was at least some implementation of the 22 June
19 crisis staff decision.
20 We can just go on to the next document now. It's DB312. This
21 document, DB312, you might be familiar with, and what I'd like you to do
22 is look at it and tell me if you are familiar with it and if you recall
23 seeing it before.
24 A. Bosko Lukic. I don't know. I've never seen this before. It
25 says: "Penal and correctional facility." This is the penal and
1 correctional facility which was under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of
2 the Interior.
3 Q. Well --
4 A. They are a state institution of special state importance, and the
5 flow of information could go from there towards the -- those people who
6 were detained. "We hereby informed you that we have carried out our
7 obligation as ordered in the decision of the AR Autonomous Region of
8 Krajina and we have employed the" --
9 Q. Please don't read the document, please.
10 A. I see the document for the first time. I really don't know what
11 your question is going to be.
12 Q. If you want to go ahead and read it, but don't do it outloud
13 because that makes the translators translate it and we have a translation.
14 If you want to sit there and read it to yourself, feel free. I wouldn't
15 mind that at all. The thing I'm interested in is if you look right
16 underneath the date, it says that it's addressed to the president of the
17 Banja Luka Municipal Crisis Staff, which I think, on 26 June 1992, was
18 probably you. And my question is: Did you receive this document or
19 didn't you?
20 A. I don't know why this was sent to me when it says here that this
21 penal and correctional facility is an institution of exceptional public
22 importance, and it was under the direct authority of the Ministry of the
23 Interior. Because here, he says in the first paragraph: "We hereby
24 inform you that we have carried out our obligations as ordered in the
25 decision of the AR Krajina Crisis Staff." This was just information for
1 our reference.
2 Q. Yes. But what it does indicate that this is another situation
3 where that 22 June decision was actually implemented, wasn't it,
5 A. Yes, it transpires from this that this was the case.
6 Q. And then I'd like you to look at P1290. Now, I think you've seen
7 this one. I think you saw it a couple of days ago. I believe I showed it
8 to you. You might remember. That doesn't look like the document I'm
9 interested in. Can I see what you've got there.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, let's economise on time. Take mine.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: It's the same thing. All right. I'm sorry.
12 Q. It's very brief, so you can read it to yourself very quickly. And
13 I think I showed it to you the other day.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, this document again refers to that 22 June 1992 decision of
16 the ARK Crisis Staff. And it says it's being forwarded for
17 implementation. But it doesn't indicate anywhere, does it, where it's
18 being forwarded?
19 A. No, it doesn't.
20 Q. Do you know just from your own knowledge whether it actually was
21 forwarded to anybody and implemented in Prijedor in any degree at all?
22 A. I don't know. It says here that the Municipality of Prijedor or
23 its crisis staff is the one that is forwarding it. And the signatory is
24 Dr. Milomir Stakic. There's no addressee. There is no list of
25 addressees, so it is very difficult for me to even assume who the
1 addressees were, who this document was sent to. It must have been
2 somebody in Prijedor.
3 Q. Do you know if Prijedor was a municipality that was particularly
4 obedient to the ARK Crisis Staff? Were they a municipality that always
5 did what the ARK Crisis Staff suggested?
6 A. I believe that you have a document where it says very clearly that
7 the decisions of the Crisis Staff of the AR Krajina do not have to be
8 implemented in Prijedor. You must have a document of that nature.
9 Q. Look at P1268.
10 The decision that I need you to look at is at decision number 119.
11 And I'm going to help you with the page number here in just a second, if I
12 can. Yes, if you look at -- up at the top you'll see the number 0017800.
13 If you find what is page 800, then you'll find decision 119 at the bottom
14 of that page.
15 A. Yes, it is here, I believe.
16 Q. Now, that's a decision of 25 June 1992, just three days after the
17 decision of the ARK Crisis Staff that we have been talking about. Isn't
19 A. Are you referring to this decision at the very top of the page?
20 Q. It's number 119 at the bottom.
21 A. Yes.
22 Yes, that is that.
23 Q. All right. And that's the one you were referring to when you said
24 that there was -- you knew there was such a decision from Prijedor.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I saw it once.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. And I remembered it. And it wasn't binding for me. I read it,
4 and it was clear to me that the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor Municipality
5 would not observe any enactments adopted by the government of the
6 Autonomous Region of Krajina until such time as the Assembly of AR Krajina
7 has elected all members of the government and so on and so forth. So this
8 was not binding for the government or for the implementation of any
9 government decisions.
10 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Radic, what I'm going to do now may be easy to do,
11 or it may be hard. I hope it's easy. I have a very large number of
12 documents that I want you to look at just very briefly. And each one of
13 them, I believe, is a Prijedor decision dismissing someone from their
14 employment. And the Registrar going to have to be really helpful with
15 regard to this. We need Documents P1173 through 1176. 1173, 74, 75, 76,
16 78, 78, and then 85 and 87 and 88 and 89 and 91 and 99. And 1201 and
17 1205. And then DB313 and 314.
18 Now, there's a lot of paper there, Mr. Radic, and all in the world
19 I want you to do is look at each of those and confirm for the Trial
20 Chamber that they are Prijedor-ordered dismissals, all of which preceded
21 the June 22nd decision of the ARK Crisis Staff. And once you've done
22 that, then I have an additional question to ask you about.
23 A. I know about these first two documents. They refer to the people
24 that I know, Milenko Djukanovic, Mirko Savic, his deputy. Miroslav who
25 was with Cikota, Topic Ranko was the one who replaced him. But here, let
1 me just have a look.
2 The date is the 2nd of May, 1992. Therefore, before that time.
3 This one is in English. Do you have it in Serbian?
4 Q. Turn it over to the other side. It's probably --
5 A. This is also in English. It refers to Mirko Brkic and Savic.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, usher, which document does he have in
7 front of him and let's keep it one document at a time, please.
8 Mr. Radic, which document do you have in front of you? Can I have
9 the number, exhibit number?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2150 or the one at the bottom.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: He has got P1173. We start with that one. 1173.
12 Take them all in your hand, usher, please, and find P1173.
13 Mr. Ackerman, 1173, 1174.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: 1175, 1176.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: 1175, is it also 313? 1176, 1178.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Then 1185.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: 85 I don't have. I have 1186. 1187. 1185 I have
18 as well, yes.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: 1188, 1189. 1191.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And 1199.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: There should be 1201 and 1205, too.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have them all usher? Okay. Let's start with
23 1173, please.
24 Mr. Radic, do you have Exhibit P1173 in front of you?
25 MR. ACKERMAN: It should refer to Milenko Djukanovic, yes.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't. Djukanovic, yes, yes.
2 Yes, it is.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: And the date on that one?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, Djukanovic.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The 2nd May. Yes, that's it. Make sure that he
6 has -- okay, but he said no.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: The next one should be 1174, Miroslav Turnsek.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: 1174. Are you going to put one cumulative,
9 all-encompassing question or what?
10 MR. ACKERMAN: At the end, when he has seen all the documents,
12 Q. Miroslav Turnsek, and the date on that one is 2 May 1992.
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ranko Topic. Yes. Next.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Next should be 1174 -- 75.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: 75.
18 MR. ACKERMAN:
19 Q. And that one should be Idriz Jakupovic, and it should be the 2nd
20 of May. Right? Do you have that one, Mr. Radic?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have it, Mr. Radic?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
23 MR. ACKERMAN:
24 Q. The next one should be 1176, Nikola Saric. 4 May of 1992
1 A. Prijedor, Nikola Saric, yes, that's the one.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: 1178, Sabiha Obrenovic.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: 4 May 1992.
4 Q. Yes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. 1185 would be next.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And it's Iso Bucan.
8 MR. ACKERMAN:
9 Q. 5 May 1992. Yes?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Next one is 1187.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: 86, I have.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not using 86, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: 1187. Hilmija Jakupovic.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: And that one is 5 May 1992
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hilmija.
18 MR. ACKERMAN:
19 Q. 1188. That should be Vahid Seric, 5 May?
20 A. Vahid Seric.
21 Q. The next one is 1189, that should be Jasminka Hadzibegovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The next one should be 1191, Dzemal Sefer, 7 May 1992?
24 A. Dzemal Sefer, yes.
25 Q. And 1199 is --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Javic Babija [phoen].
2 MR. ACKERMAN: 13 May 1992.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 13th May, yes.
4 MR. ACKERMAN:
5 Q. 1201 is Bozidar Bajic, 13 May.
6 A. Correct.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 MR. ACKERMAN:
9 Q. 1205 is --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Radira Menis [phoen].
11 MR. ACKERMAN:
12 Q. 14 May.
13 A. Correct.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: 1206. Are you making use of that?
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me see, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, this one is an appointed acting manager.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Not that one.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's not the one.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: There should be a DB313.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: 313 or 314?
21 MR. ACKERMAN: But I don't see it on my list. Yes, here it is.
22 There it is.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: 313 is -- do you have it, usher? It's about Izet
24 Mehmedagic and Slobodan Radulovic.
25 MR. ACKERMAN:
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. The dismissal of Mehmedagic on 4 May.
2 A. I have only Esad Mehmedagic, but I don't see the other one.
3 Q. That's it.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it, Esad Mehmedagic, Slobodan --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
7 MR. ACKERMAN:
8 Q. Finally, DB314 is the dismissal of Mirsad Muftic on 18 May.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And your question, Mr. Ackerman?
10 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm told the transcript is missing P1205, so just
11 to --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record --
13 MR. ACKERMAN: -- For the record --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- 1205, 1205 was -- referred to the witness --
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Enes Kadiric, dated 14 May.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Enes Kadiric, dated 14 May 1992.
17 MR. ACKERMAN:
18 Q. Can you tell us with all of these dismissals from the Prijedor
19 Municipality predating the June 22nd ARK document, where would the
20 Prijedor Municipality have gotten the authority to do these dismissals?
21 What authority would they have gotten to do this and where would it have
22 come from, do you know?
23 A. One cannot see it from the preamble, because normally the preamble
24 should contain the words on the basis of such and such law. But this is
25 simply a decision reached by the executive council on the dismissal of
1 these people. But we do not see the legal basis. We do not see the
2 relevant article of the law on which this is based.
3 Moreover, this does not contain any legal remedy. Normally such a
4 document should contain a legal remedy instructing plaintiffs where to
5 lodge their complaint. So we do not see the legal basis. On the basis of
6 article of the rules of procedure, only in the case here, the article of
7 78 of the rules of procedure of the executive council. But once again,
8 this is not the relevant legal basis. So these are the decisions of an
9 executive body of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor, and I do not know
10 what basis they used to pass these decisions. Obviously not on the basis
11 of the instructions of the crisis staff of the ARK because they preceded
13 Q. All right. The next document is P256. And it's a rather long
14 document, and I just want to refer you to a very small part of it.
15 You'll see at the very top of the document, it says: "Item 2" and
16 refers to talks that were held with General Talic on the 22nd of June
17 1992. And it lists people that were part of that discussion. The part
18 I'm only -- the only part I'm really interested in is that which is on
19 that third-full paragraph which begins with: "General Talic and other
20 officers were thereby informed..." And if you look in that, about halfway
21 down, it will tell you that it's referring to Muslims, that about 2.000
22 have been dismissed from their jobs.
23 Do you see that?
24 A. I cannot find it. I have a 2, and then I don't see -- I mean, I
25 see the words but I don't understand. Is this on the same page?
1 Q. I'm going to find it for you.
2 It's the same page, it's the paragraph that begins: "Pre"
3 something, Generalu Talicu, and then about halfway down it talks about
4 2.000 Muslims having been dismissed from their jobs. Do you see it?
5 A. I do, yes.
6 Q. Now, this document being dated the 22nd of June and referring to
7 2.000 Muslims already having been dismissed from their jobs, it's -- those
8 dismissals wouldn't have been pursuant to that June 22nd ARK Crisis Staff
9 decision, would they?
10 A. I couldn't say before I read the document because this is the
11 first time I see this document.
12 Q. That's the only part of the document that has anything to do with
13 anybody being dismissed from their jobs, and that's all I'm interested in.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I recognise Ms. Korner.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what Mr. Ackerman is actually doing is
16 making a speech using the witness to do it.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: They are both used to it.
18 MS. KORNER: Well, whichever it is, all of these points
19 Mr. Ackerman points out rightly, common sense it be made in a speech.
20 It's not a proper question for this witness, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I see your point, Ms. Korner, and it was in my mind
22 as well. I think if the document speaks for itself, Mr. Ackerman it,
23 becomes an argument or a submission, and not confirmation from someone who
24 had something to do with the decision process in Prijedor or who drafted
25 that document.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I actually learned this from
2 Ms. Korner. I can show you hundreds of pages of documents where she read
3 documents and didn't even ask a question about them.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's true as well. But I don't think you need to
5 confirm -- a confirmation from the witness that if on the 22nd of June,
6 already 2.000 Muslims had been discharged according to this document.
7 That couldn't have been by way of implementation of the ARK Crisis Staff
8 decision of the same date.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Let's move forward.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: To which P255 refers. I think it's a very valid
11 submission which you have already made and which you can continue making.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to look at DB183 now, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: One --?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: DB183.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you skipping 192?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I guess I am, Judge. I may go back to it. I don't
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
19 MR. ACKERMAN:
20 Q. Now, this is a document -- it's dated in 1993, 6th of February.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: 6th or 15 -- yeah, okay.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: It has got two dates on it.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Two dates. It refers to a decision taken on the 6th
24 of February. You're correct. Go ahead, Mr. Ackerman.
25 MR. ACKERMAN:
1 Q. On the 6th February, there was this conclusion by the Executive
2 Committee of Banja Luka, Rajko Kasagic. And if you look at first of all
3 the Roman numeral 1 paragraph, the committee notes that there is a
4 considerable number of workers in Banja Luka who have been laid off. As a
5 result of either a complete suspension of operation or reduction of the
6 scope of work in enterprises, institutions and private shops due to the
7 immediate danger from war.
8 Do you know yourself, Mr. Radic, that that was the case, that
9 there was a complete suspension of operation of some enterprises, a
10 reduction of other enterprises that caused significant layoffs in Banja
11 Luka? Did that happen?
12 A. This is a decision by the Executive Council, and if you look at
13 the preamble, you see that they do not invoke the decision of the
14 Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka. This is a document of an executive
15 nature adopted by an executive body. And I assume that it concerned the
16 following. In view of the date, the 15th of February 1993, a number of
17 refugees found themselves in Banja Luka. At the same time, Derventa
18 Jajce, Modrica, Brod, municipalities that were part of Republika Srpska
19 did not receive and accommodate those refugees. Therefore, the town of
20 Banja Luka was severely burdened --
21 Q. Mr. Radic, I had a question I wanted to ask you. You're not
22 answering the one I asked, and I want you to answer the one I asked,
23 please. I want you to look just at the first paragraph, and what is said
24 in that first paragraph, that a number of workers in Banja Luka had been
25 laid off as a result of the complete suspension of operation or reduction
1 of the scope of the work of enterprises, institutions, and private shops
2 due to the immediate danger of war. All I want to ask you right now is do
3 you know of your own knowledge that that's true, that that's exactly what
4 happened in Banja Luka --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, before he answers that question,
6 Mr. Ackerman, because I think it's my duty to bring this out. As you
7 yourself pointed out, and I agreed with you, the document on the face of
8 it shows two dates, 6th of February and 15th of February. But also two
9 years, 1992 at the top and 1993 at the top and at the bottom. But halfway
10 through the document, again you have reference to the 20th of February
11 1992. We need to decide whether this is a 1992 or a 1993 document, and if
12 it is a 1993 document what is the relevance of your question?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, mine says 1993 everywhere.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: But mine doesn't.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm looking at the original Serbian version,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The original Serbian version is 1993 everywhere. I
18 agree with you.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So may I ask you what the relevance of your question
22 MR. ACKERMAN: The relevance -- they're talking here, Your Honour,
23 in the first part about the history, what has happened as a result of the
24 threat of war in Banja Luka.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but in 1993, a threat of war? We're talking
1 of threat of war in 1993 and not in 1992?
2 MR. ACKERMAN: My question is really -- relates to 1992,
3 Your Honour, and that is --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. So we're restricted to 1992 because the
5 witness himself, his first reaction was this was not an implementation of
6 the crisis staff --
7 MR. ACKERMAN: No, he was talking about his own Municipal
8 Assembly. It's not an implementation of anything the Municipal Assembly
9 did. That's what he was saying. What I'm interested in is this.
10 Q. And Mr. Radic, this first paragraph indicates that a number of
11 people were laid off in Banja Luka because of a complete suspension of
12 operation or reduction of the scope or the work of enterprises,
13 institutions, and private shops. My only question is: Do you know if
14 that was the case in Banja Luka? Were people laid off because of a
15 reduction in jobs basically?
16 A. They were dismissed. They didn't have anything to do. They would
17 show up for work, but they didn't have any work to do. They didn't
18 receive any salary. And they were already engaged, most of them, in the
19 so-called grey market -- black market. They went to the local market, and
20 they resold what they had in order to survive. So it is true that a lot
21 of people were left without work at the time. There was no work left in
22 the big companies such as Cajavec and some others.
23 Q. And then if you look at paragraph 2, there the committee is
24 recommending to various enterprises that they terminate the employment of
25 refugees and basically recommending that those refugees go off to places
1 like Derventa, Jajce, Modrica and Brod. And my question about that is
2 those refugees would have been primarily Serbs, right, or all Serbs, for
3 that matter?
4 A. Most of them were Serbs. Almost all of them, I should say,
5 because they had fled the areas where Bosniaks and Croats lived, such as
6 Bugojno and Travnik. All these areas -- people from all these areas came
7 to Banja Luka.
8 Q. All right. I now want to show you a document regarding a
9 dismissal that you know a great deal about because you were involved in
10 it. Look at P276, please.
11 Now, this document, Mr. Radic, is dated -- it refers to a session
12 of 7 July --
13 A. The 7th of July 1992.
14 Q. That's after that June 22nd decision of the crisis staff. And my
15 question is, did you relieve the editor of Glas, Miro Mladenovic because
16 he was not a member of the SDS as directed by the ARK Crisis Staff? Is
17 that why you relieved him?
18 A. Nowhere in the preamble do we see any decision of the ARK Krajina.
19 This was discussed at the Municipal Assembly, and this is a strictly
20 speaking Municipal Assembly decision. The gentleman, a Serb, a member of
21 the SDS was relieved of his duty because he had not fulfilled his
22 obligations as he should have. He didn't have adequate qualifications,
23 and it was decided that he should be replaced by a man who would be better
24 at this job and who would be a better editor. This was the only paper at
25 the time in the Republika Srpska. There was no other reason, and there
1 was no order issued by ARK.
2 Q. So this person was a Serb and was a member of the SDS?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And reading between the lines, are you saying that he was
5 dismissed because he wasn't competent to do the job he was doing?
6 A. No, he was not competent. As I say, he came on the wings of the
7 party, and he left on the wings of the municipal assembly, which
8 decided -- which thought he was incompetent for this job. Of course, it
9 created a major uproar within the SDS. But he had to leave -- he had to
10 leave this job.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, Mr. Ackerman, this document that
12 you have doesn't have -- it doesn't show, one, a letterhead; it doesn't
13 have a stamp; and it is not signed. Still, do you contest its
14 authenticity, Mr. Radic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an authentic document. And
16 there must exist its copy with a signature on it.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed.
18 MR. ACKERMAN:
19 Q. All right. What time did you want to break, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Twenty to four, Mr. Ackerman, so you have almost
21 twenty-five minutes.
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. I just have a very few more questions actually, for you,
24 Mr. Radic. Did Brdjanin have authority over the Krajina by virtue of his
25 position as president of the crisis staff?
1 Let me put it a little bit different language, the language of the
2 Oxford dictionary. As president of the crisis staff, did he have the
3 power or right to enforce obedience?
4 A. That's what he may have expected. However, whether people were
5 obedient, I don't know. Banja Luka is a good example. Prijedor is a good
6 example. They didn't obey at all. I don't know whether he informed them
7 about anything. He must have, because otherwise he wouldn't have had the
8 answer in which they say they are not going to obey unless some conditions
9 are fulfilled. I already said that Mr. Brdjanin de jure was the president
10 of the crisis staff, but de facto he could not discharge those duties. If
11 you want to discharge certain duties, you have to have some resources at
12 your disposal, the resources that he did not have.
13 Q. Do you recall -- you were interviewed, I believe, twice in Banja
14 Luka by the Office of the Prosecutor. And I have one of your answers here
15 that I want to read to you, and then ask you what you meant by what you
16 said there.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman --
18 MS. KORNER: If Mr. Ackerman tells us the page, we can put it up
19 on the ELMO.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have a copy of these interviews.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know if you can, because you've only given
22 me the Rule 68 stuff.
23 MS. KORNER: That's because you only asked for the Rule 68.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: That's not true. I asked for the whole thing. But
25 you said you'd only give the Rule 68. I've got the transcript --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's not --
2 MS. KORNER: Let's finish that, but Your Honour that's an
3 important point. I'll come back to that in a moment. Can you tell us
4 roughly which interview it is.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: I think it's the first interview, and it's page 14
6 of the Rule 68 document that you gave me. The second Rule 68 document
7 doesn't have page numbers so I'm not going to be able to help you much
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we speed it up. Can you lend your document
10 yourself, Mr. Ackerman, and then we can all refer to it on the ELMO?
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: That's a good idea.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ms. Korner can identify the page looking at the
15 ELMO. It starts with "more so the police..." Top of the page.
16 MR. ACKERMAN:
17 Q. The paragraph I'm interested in, Mr. Radic, is the one I've got
18 yellow marks on and everything else on. "Let me tell you one thing: The
19 police was never under the authority of the municipal civilian
20 authorities. This was not the case before the war. Until the 1990, it
21 was not the case during the war, nor is it the case now. The only thing I
22 could do is ask certain policemen to do something for me in order to
23 preserve peace in the city, but I could in no way give them orders." And
24 then this sentence: "Do you know what happened when the guys on the top
25 found out that this person was listened to me? He was replaced
1 immediately." That's the sentence I don't understand.
2 Do you have any idea what you meant when you said that?
3 A. I do. I know. The first person who was dismissed once it was
4 found that he had performed duties in the interest of the town, he was the
5 chief of the public security services of the town of the Banja Luka
6 unlike the Security Services Centre, which covered 27 municipalities of
7 Bosanska Krajina. This gentleman, his name was Tutus, obeyed from time to
8 time, listened to me, did me certain favours in order to preserve peace in
9 the town. The very moment when this was found out, and it was found out
10 after the well-known operation, September 1993, he was relieved of his
11 duties and sent to Bijeljina. I believe he was assigned a duty up there.
12 And the public security service in town was disbanded. All the
13 municipalities in Krajina had their public security services. Only
14 Banja Luka did not have one such service.
15 Three commanders of the local public security stations in town,
16 through whom I managed to maintain peace in town, were also relieved of
17 their duties. Sutilovic, Rodic, Miskovic, and so on and so forth. And
18 the last one who was dismissed was Mr. Kutlija. He was said very clear
19 and loud by a person from the Ministry of the Interior that he was
20 relieved of his duties because he cooperated too well with Mr. Radic.
21 This is what I had in mind, Mr. Ackerman, when I said this.
22 Q. All right. Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you can hand back the page to Mr. Ackerman.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Madam usher.
25 Q. Sir, this is another part of your interview with the Prosecutor.
1 And I'm interested in the bottom part of that document, so if you raise it
2 up for me.
3 The question by Ms. Korner was what about the other
4 municipalities? You told us that in Prijedor it had no effect. Your
5 answer was: "It couldn't affect Prijedor - and we're talking about a
6 particular decision of the ARK crisis staff. "It couldn't affect Prijedor
7 because people were too powerful there for Brdjanin." What did you mean
8 by that, that people there were too powerful for Brdjanin?
9 A. Not only they were too powerful for Brdjanin; they were too
10 powerful even for some other institutions of government. They had a sort
11 of autonomy of their own. I would like to remind you that even before the
12 war, they asked to be a subregion, not to be part of the region of
13 Bosanska Krajina. And that went on and continued throughout the war.
14 They did not have the CSB. They had a public security centre. And from
15 Banja Luka -- the centre from Banja Luka had very little influence over
16 that institution.
17 Towards the end of the war, they became the Security Services
18 Centre, and Brdjanin could not have any influence over them. There was no
19 civilian organ in Krajina who could have any influence there.
20 Q. All right. Mr. Radic, I have no further questions of you. Thank
21 you very much.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner.
23 Mr. Radic, you're now going to be cross-examined by Ms. Korner.
24 And then we'll see whether there is a re-examination by Mr. Ackerman.
25 MS. KORNER: I think that's some time away, Your Honour.
1 Sorry, microphone.
2 Cross-examined by Ms. Korner:
3 Q. Mr. Radic, how would you describe your role in the events between
4 October 1991 and the end of 1992?
5 A. Bearing in mind that Banja Luka was the biggest town in
6 Republika Srpska with the highest number of fighters on the front lines
7 and the highest number of refugees, my role was to preserve peace and
8 order in town and to provide for all the logistical support that the state
9 could not provide, either for the army or for the refugees that were
11 Q. So your role, you saw, was preserving peace and order in
12 Banja Luka?
13 A. Within the scope of my limitations.
14 Q. Were you anxious to see the non-Serbs being driven out of
15 Banja Luka?
16 A. Absolutely not.
17 Q. Did any of your actions in your view have -- play any part in
18 driving the non-Serbs out of Banja Luka?
19 A. My actions did not have any bearing on that.
20 Q. But you accept, do you, that in reality that is what happened,
21 that the non-Serbs slowly but surely were driven out of Banja Luka?
22 A. Whether they were expelled or whether they were just leaving
23 because they were pushed out by the refugees who came from other
24 municipalities is a question that would take some explaining. I would
25 like to remind everybody, if you will allow me to do so --
1 Q. I simply want to the moment, please, a simple yes or no. Do you
2 accept that slowly but surely the non-Serbs were expelled, or left,
3 Banja Luka?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Or made to leave?
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Or made to leave.
7 A. I wouldn't agree with you that they were expelled. I would say
8 that they felt that the time was ripe for them to leave this dangerous
9 area. And that is the case. I'm sure of that.
10 Q. Now before the break, I want to ask you some questions about
11 documents, please. You told us yesterday that you brought with you a copy
12 of the Glas article about the SOS. Did you bring any other documents with
14 A. No.
15 Q. Why did you happen to bring that particular article and no other
17 A. Because in my previous consultations with the Defence lawyers when
18 they were in Banja Luka, that was the question that was most frequently
19 asked. And it was very easy for me to obtain a copy of this article from
20 Glas depicting the role of the SOS, its establishment. And at the end of
21 the day, I used it as a reminder of what happened on the 4th of April
22 1992. It was 11 years ago, as you know.
23 Q. I understand that. For the moment, can we just concentrate on
24 documents. Are you saying you were never asked to bring any other
25 documents with you or whether you had any other documents?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So, I'm sorry. That was two questions in one. You were never
3 asked whether you had any other documents?
4 A. What documents I had I gave them to the Defence counsels for their
5 perusal. But that was a very limited number of documents.
6 Q. Well, can I ask what documents they were, please.
7 A. Maybe the Defence counsels would find it easier to answer that
8 question because I don't remember what documents I gave them. Not only
9 recently, but a long time ago when the Defence counsels for Mr. Brdjanin
10 asked me to provide them with documents. Those were mostly decisions of
11 the municipal assembly. They were in my archives. And I can't tell you
12 anything particular about those documents because I did not have any
13 documents at my disposal that would pertain within the purview of the
14 crisis staff of the Krajina or any other body of that sort.
15 Q. I'm going to come on to that in a moment. But you told us in
16 Banja Luka, you may recall, that you had a certain location where you keep
17 documents, and you were asked, weren't you, are there any documents you
18 would wish to show us? And you said you weren't prepared to, effectively,
19 because you didn't know whether you were a witness or an accused. And do
20 you still have those documents?
21 A. I do have some.
22 Q. Do those documents include decisions of the Municipal Crisis
24 A. All the decisions of the Municipal Crisis Staff were subsequently
25 confirmed by the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka once the crisis staff
1 was disbanded, all the decisions adopted by the crisis staff, that is.
2 Q. That may be, so, Mr. Radic, but I'm asking you whether you have
3 minutes and decisions of the Municipal Crisis Staff available to you?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. So you didn't keep those documents?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. So what documents did you keep?
8 A. Decisions of the municipal assembly confirming all those things
9 which were done previously by the crisis staff.
10 Q. But why didn't you keep the crisis staff minutes or decisions if
11 you kept the municipal assembly ones?
12 A. Because this was not my duty. It was one of the duties of the
13 secretary of the municipal assembly, to preserve all the documents
14 pertaining to the crisis staff. And at the given moment, to present those
15 documents at the meetings of the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka once the
16 Crisis Staff of Banja Luka stopped existing.
17 Q. I understand that. But I'm asking why, if you kept certain
18 documents you didn't keep those, when it was clear to you, wasn't it, that
19 it was going to be important for you to be able to explain what had
20 happened during this period?
21 A. Because I didn't see anything in those documents that was not
22 subsequently considered by the municipal assembly. If you look at the
23 things that were confirmed by the municipal assembly, those are the things
24 that were once considered by the crisis staff. And there was nothing else
25 there. And why would one keep two sets of documents knowing that one set
1 of documents just confirms things that were previously considered by the
2 crisis staff?
3 Q. Why did you think it was important to keep your own personal copy
4 in a certain unnamed location of the decision verifying the crisis staff
6 A. I believe that all these documents were collected by the SFOR,
7 once they arrived in the municipality. So I don't have anything that the
8 SFOR doesn't have. In any case, I don't have anything that was considered
9 by the crisis staff. I only have the documents confirming and verifying
10 what the crisis staff had previously decided. And those documents are the
11 documents of the municipal assembly.
12 Q. That's not the question. I'm going to come on to what you call
13 SFOR in a moment. But the question was why did you think it important to
14 keep a copy of the decision verifying the crisis staff decisions and not
15 those decisions themselves?
16 A. I've told you. Because municipal assembly decisions don't contain
17 anything else but the things that were contained in the crisis staff
18 decisions. The assembly's decisions are word for word copies of the
19 things which were considered by the crisis staff, and those are the things
20 that are within the purview of the municipality, utilities, healthcare,
21 education, and so on and so forth.
22 Q. Full minutes of the crisis staff meetings were kept, is that
23 right, by Mr. Cvijic, or somebody else on his behalf?
24 A. Yes, probably, because those served as the basis for decisions
25 adopted by the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka. It could not just be
1 invented in order to become part of the decisions of the Municipal
2 Assembly of Banja Luka.
3 Q. I'm sorry. You say "probably." You were the president of the
4 municipal crisis staff. You were there. Did you ensure that minutes were
6 A. Yes, minutes had to be taken for a simple reason. The order on
7 the establishment of crisis staffs set it out in the following way: Once
8 the crisis staff no longer need to exist, all the decisions adopted by the
9 paragraph have to be verified at the first subsequent session of the
10 municipal assembly. For that reason, we had to keep minutes.
11 Q. Mr. Radic, there may be certain times when it's necessary, and you
12 want to give an explanation, but that was a simple yes or no. The answer
13 to the question is yes, minutes were taken.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think we need to take a break now. And --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. I apologise.
17 We'll have a break of 20 minutes starting from now. Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
21 MS. KORNER: Right.
22 Q. Can we now deal with minutes of the regional crisis staff.
23 Minutes of those meetings were taken as well, weren't they, Mr. Radic, to
24 your knowledge?
25 A. Regional crisis staff, you mean the crisis staff of ARK?
1 Q. I do.
2 A. Most probably they were kept. They should exist.
3 Q. No, no, can we leave out the "probably." You know, don't you,
4 Mr. Radic, because you were at some of these meetings at least that
5 minutes were being kept by Mr. Blagojevic, the secretary to the assembly,
6 and then to the crisis staff?
7 A. Mr. Blagojevic was here before me. And he should have answered as
8 to how many minutes he kept and how many sessions I attended. I'm sure he
9 should have something to that effect.
10 Q. Yes. Mr. Radic, I'm going to come back to Mr. Blagojevic in a
11 moment. But at the moment I'm asking a very simple question which you've
12 answered before. Minutes of the ARK Crisis Staff meetings were kept,
13 weren't they?
14 A. I said most probably because I cannot guarantee that they were
15 kept because I didn't attend many of them.
16 Q. All right. I'm going to ask that we put up on to the ELMO,
17 please, page 14 of the interview of 2001. I'm afraid Sanction is not
18 working again, so Mr. Ackerman will be happy to hear we can't use it
20 And then we'll try and -- the -- we'll need for the B/C/S, it
21 should be -- I'm sorry. I think we'll have to find it. Can you put the
22 English on the ELMO. This is really going to take a long time. Or we may
23 be able to get it on Sanction. No.
24 MS. KORNER: So can we put page 14 up, and then, usher, if you
25 give me back the B/C/S version. Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this amongst the pages that were disclosed to
2 you, Mr. Ackerman? Because this is a problem. This is his interview.
3 MS. KORNER: This is his interview, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the problem is this: You obviously have
5 the entire transcript. Mr. Ackerman has only got what was disclosed to
6 him --
7 MS. KORNER: The Rule 68.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Under Rule 68. We have nothing.
9 MS. KORNER: Correct.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, I do not expect to have what you didn't feel
11 comfortable disclosing to Mr. Ackerman because you may have -- I concede
12 that you have valid reasons for not disclosing those. So I don't want
13 them. But at least what was disclosed to Mr. Ackerman under Rule 68 I
14 should have. Also, at least to know what he has made use of and what he
15 hasn't made use of.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say, I was about to raise it and I
17 discussed it with Mr. Ackerman in the break, and I think we may be able to
18 come to some decision about all this.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.
20 MS. KORNER: At the moment, rather than waste time --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I'll not force your hands then. Go ahead.
22 MS. KORNER: Can we deal with it first thing tomorrow morning,
23 Your Honour -- tomorrow afternoon.
24 Unfortunately, that's -- no, this is Mr. Cayley. That's Cayley.
25 That's the English. I want the B/C/S. Yes, this is it. Thank you.
1 Sorry. Your Honour, I apologise. We thought we were going to be
2 able to use Sanction. It has collapsed on us, and that's why we can't do
3 it --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I call equality of arms.
5 MS. KORNER: Exactly. I'm told it's corrupted.
6 If this can be handed now to Mr. Radic. Not the top -- just that
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have the right page on the ELMO or not?
10 MS. KORNER: Yes.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.
13 MS. KORNER: No, we haven't.
14 Where's the English? Sorry. All of this for a simple point.
15 Okay. Next page. Thanks. And then the following page.
16 Could you move it to the... Yes.
17 Q. Do you see there, please, Mr. Radic, the question by Mr. Grady.
18 You said: "I did not make it a habit to go every time. I had better
19 things to do." "Well, who reported what was discussed at the ARK Crisis
20 Staff meetings?" "Mr. Blagojevic, who from what I hear missed out quite a
21 few things from the records."
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's him.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the high tech technology in this Court
24 is quite something this afternoon.
25 Q. Mr. Grady asked you: "It was his responsibility to take minutes
1 in?" "Yes, and the decisions, conclusions, and everything else." "And
2 where are those minutes now?" It says Mr. Grady by mistake. I think this
3 is in fact you speaking, Mr. Radic.
4 "You should have to ask him. I only saw one record, and I
5 noticed he did not write what I'd said. I simply said: `you won't be
6 seeing me again'." "When was that?" "It was when the dean was being
8 All right? Do you remember saying that to us?
9 A. The dean.
10 Q. Never mind. Let's not go into that, Mr. Radic. Do you agree that
11 you told us in Banja Luka in July 2001 that not only was Mr. Blagojevic
12 was taking minutes, but that you noticed one day he was making a mistake
13 in them?
14 A. Yes, this is what I stated here, that he did not reflect what I
15 said regarding the replacement of the Banja Luka University dean.
16 Q. Do you know, Mr. Radic, about ten minutes ago, I asked you a very
17 simple question which was this: Did Mr. Blagojevic take the minutes of
18 the ARK Crisis Staff meeting? And we went round the houses while you said
19 "probably" and "we should ask Mr. Blagojevic."
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object. What Mr. Radic said was
21 that he didn't go to the meetings so he didn't know, except the ones he
22 went to. And he's answered that this one that he went to there was a
23 problem. But he doesn't know if Blagojevic took minutes of all the
24 meetings he didn't attend. So that's an unfair question. I object to it.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me just, before deciding that you are right,
1 Mr. Ackerman, read what the witness said.
2 Ms. Korner: "Can we now deal with minutes of the regional crisis
3 staff, minutes of those meetings were taken as well, weren't they,
4 Mr. Radic, to your knowledge?" And Mr. Radic said: "Regional crisis
5 staff? You mean the crisis staff of ARK"? "I do." And his answer was
6 "Most probably they were kept. They should exist." Question: "Can we
7 leave out the "probably." "You know, don't you, Mr. Radic, because you
8 were at some of these meetings at least that minutes were kept by Mr.
9 Blagojevic the secretary to the assembly and then to the crisis staff?"
10 Answer: "Mr. Blagojevic was here before me. And he should have answered
11 as to how many minutes he kept and how many sessions I attended. I'm sure
12 he should have something to that effect." And then to a further question
13 you say:"I said most probably because I cannot guarantee that they were
14 kept because I didn't attend many of them."
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't know where we are. But if it's
16 an unfair point, I'll withdraw.
17 Q. Mr. Radic, can we go back to where I really did start. When you
18 were there at these meetings, Mr. Blagojevic was keeping minutes. Is that
20 A. Again, I have to say that --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And I would imagine that you, as the number one
22 figure in the municipal assembly, if you stated something in one of the
23 meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff, you would want to see how you have been
24 recorded in the minutes, wouldn't you? I mean, I have done that myself in
25 the past, and I wouldn't -- I would certainly not forego not consulting
1 the minutes to make sure that I am reported well.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's... Someone in your position.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, I was not only
5 president of the municipal assembly. I was a university professor, and I
6 knew what a replacement of a dean meant at an autonomous university
7 institution. And this is the reason why I said what I said. But the
8 minutes reflect what I said, and one can clearly see why I experienced
9 what I experienced later on.
10 MS. KORNER:
11 Q. All right. All right, Mr. Radic. Can we leave it at that.
12 Certainly at that meeting over the replacement of the rector of the
13 university, you were present and you saw Mr. Blagojevic taking minutes?
14 A. Now, for me to say whether I saw it or not, all I know is that I
15 didn't find my words reflected in the minutes, and I don't know who kept
16 the minutes at that point. Whether someone did it instead of Blagojevic,
17 I don't know. I don't remember him keeping the minutes. But because he
18 was the one who signed the minutes, I said that this is what he had done.
19 Q. All right. Can we put it this way, Mr. Radic: It is
20 inconceivable to you, is it not, that a record of a body such as the
21 regional crisis staff or any crisis staff did not have somebody noting
22 down what was being discussed?
23 A. That's how it should be, that one had to know who was the
24 president, who was the secretary, and what the official minutes were.
25 Q. All right. Now, at page 82 of this interview, and I hope that we
1 don't have to start putting it up on the ELMO again and looking for the
2 B/C/S, when you were talking about your own documents, you were asked
3 right at the end of this interview: "Do you know where the minutes of the
4 ARK regional Crisis Staff meetings are?" And you replied: "Were they not
5 all collected from the basement in the municipality in the municipal
6 building? That's where they were."
7 Do you remember telling us that?
8 A. I would need to have a look at the B/C/S version. I'm sure you
9 have one.
10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, that's not page 82, usher.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, my memory may be wrong, but I thought
12 he said yesterday that he believed they were probably collected by SFOR
13 when they took all the documents from the --
14 MS. KORNER: I'm coming on to that, Mr. Ackerman. I'm only
15 putting to him what he said in interview.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I just don't know what he's being challenged about.
17 He already said that's what happened.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It makes a difference, Mr. Ackerman, a big
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I have the microphone on. I'm sorry, you put it on.
22 Sorry. My apologies
23 MS. KORNER: Forget about the interview now. This is getting too
24 chaotic now, and I don't want to waste any more time.
25 Q. To your knowledge and belief, that's where the crisis staff
1 minutes were kept which you say were collected by SFOR. Is that right?
2 A. The entire documentation which, according to my knowledge, was
3 kept in the basement of the municipal assembly was collected on that day
4 when SFOR arrived, opened it up, and took it with them. Whether these
5 documents were there indeed, I think that Mr. Brdjanin should be familiar
6 with that better than I am. After all, he was the president of the crisis
7 staff. All I know is that on that day, a session of the municipal
8 assembly was held, and we were told that the SFOR had collected the entire
9 documentation from that location. So I cannot guarantee as to the
10 whereabouts of the documentation relating to the work of the ARK Crisis
12 Q. Right. You were talking about February 1998 when representatives
13 of the Office of the Prosecutor and SFOR combined carried out search
14 warrants on numerous buildings in Banja Luka. Is that right?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. The CSB, the municipal building, the radio station, and the like.
17 A. Yes. And the cabinet of the president of the municipality, which
18 at the time, of course, was not myself.
19 Q. Mm-hmm. Now, Mr. Radic, I'm going to suggest to you that neither
20 the minutes of the regional crisis staff, nor the minutes of the municipal
21 crisis staff were in the municipal building at the time that the search
22 warrant was executed. Now, do you know who removed those minutes?
23 A. No. If they were not there, no, because after their visit, there
24 was talk that they had collected the documentation of the ARK Crisis
25 Staff. Whether those documents were indeed there, again, I don't know.
1 Mr. Brdjanin, Mr. Blagojevic, and others should know where this
2 documentation was stored, if it was not stored there.
3 Q. Did you make your own notes of meetings of the regional crisis
4 staff which you attended?
5 A. No. Because, as I indicated, I did not attend the meetings. I
6 may have attended one of them. And I didn't make notes.
7 Q. Well, I'm going to suggest that you attended more than one. But
8 you made no notes of the regional. Did you make your own notes of the
9 municipal crisis staff or war presidency meetings?
10 A. There were people in charge of that. The municipal crisis staff,
11 which was then transferred into the decisions of the Municipal Assembly of
12 Banja Luka. But I myself did not take such notes as the president of the
14 Q. All right. So you took notes neither of the regional crisis staff
15 meetings, nor of the municipal.
16 I'd like you to look at an article in Glas, and it's disclosure
17 2.589 which was-- it must have been disclosed, or it hasn't been. It's
18 dated 17th of July.
19 Your Honours, I don't think you have it, we're going to hand it
20 out to you now.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm wondering if there's a list of the documents
22 for cross-examination purposes.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes, we sent it to you. We emailed it to you today.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: After I left the office apparently. That's
25 helpful. That's very helpful.
1 MS. KORNER: Unless you tell us when you leave your office,
2 Mr. Ackerman, but we can give you another copy.
3 Q. Now, this was a report of an assembly session on the 17th of July
4 1992. We can put it up on the ELMO, if necessary, on -- I'm going to come
5 back to it later, Mr. Radic. But I want to ask you about one thing you
6 said. It's part of the article. It's the third page on the ELMO, please,
7 of the translation, headed "Off the Record."
8 This is a long discussion connected with the sacking of
9 Mr. Mladenovic. But do you see this in the article: "On the 6th of June,
10 the SDS Executive Committee discussed the Glas editorial policy," Radic
11 continued. "The Krajina War Presidency adopted the replacement decision. I
12 don't suppose we will after all I have to say what was said at the war
13 presidency." Blah blah, and so on and so forth. This sentence: "This
14 cannot be said in front of this gathering especially since journalists are
15 present. In my notepad, I have notes of all the discussions of the war
16 presidency and any assembly member who wishes to see it can do so."
17 Now, Mr. Radic, to what were you referring, the Krajina War
18 Presidency or your own war presidency?
19 A. Deputies of the municipal assembly accepted the decision of the
20 war presidency, therefore they can only accept the decision of the war
21 presidency of the municipal assembly, and not any other decision. So I
22 don't know what else is at issue here.
23 Q. Mr. Radic, what you told the assembly on the 16th or the 17th of
24 July is that you waved at them a notepad saying that you had here notes,
25 and anybody in the assembly who wished to could see them, notes of the war
1 presidency discussions. And you told us a moment ago that you took no
3 A. Does this have anything to do with the replacement of
4 Mr. Mladenovic and his dismissal?
5 Q. Mr. Radic, I'd like you to answer, please, my question, which is a
6 simple one. What notes were you talking about that you had of the war
7 presidency discussions?
8 A. Notes that had to do with the sacking of Mr. Mladenovic. That was
9 one of the items of the agenda of that assembly meeting.
10 Q. You told us a moment ago, Mr. Radic, that you took no notes of
11 either the municipal presidency, war presidency meetings, nor the ARK.
12 That was not correct, was it?
13 A. I apologise. We were talking about the Crisis Staff of the AR
14 Krajina and of the crisis staff of the municipality. We didn't talk about
15 the war presidency, did we?
16 Q. I'm so sorry. You're drawing a distinction, are you, between the
17 crisis staff as a body and the war presidency as a body?
18 A. Absolutely.
19 Q. Was there any difference in the composition of, first of all, the
20 municipal crisis staff and the municipal war presidency?
21 A. There was a difference. However, I wouldn't be able to tell you
22 exactly what it was. I would have to be -- look at the documents in order
23 to tell you what were the authorities of the war presidency and what were
24 the authorities of the crisis staff of the Banja Luka Municipality.
25 Q. By "composition" I mean of the people who actually formed the
1 crisis staff or the war presidency.
2 A. I would like to see the list showing me who the members of the war
3 presidency were and who the members of the crisis staff were.
4 Q. Well, let's go back to this decision. What were you referring to?
5 Did you have notes on the discussions of the War Presidency of the
6 Autonomous Region of Krajina or the Banja Luka War Presidency?
7 A. I'm sure that at that War Presidency of the AR Krajina, there was
8 no discussion about the sacking of the editor in chief of Glas because
9 this whole issue is about the dismissal of the editor in chief, Miro
11 Q. You're absolutely right. I'm going to come back to that. But at
12 the moment, Mr. Radic, I'm simply asking you are those notes that you took
13 of the Banja Luka Municipal War Presidency or of the Krajina War
15 A. I don't remember. I would first have to read this to see what it
16 says. This document was published in July 1992. I would have to read it
17 first in order to be able to tell you exactly what I meant when I said
18 what I said.
19 Q. All right. Where are your notes now that you took of war
20 presidency meetings?
21 A. Simply, I don't have them.
22 Q. What do you mean by that? Do you mean you threw them away?
23 A. What I'm saying is that at this moment, they couldn't be used for
24 anything, and I'm not keeping them. Those notes must have been made in a
25 little notebook. Those were not official notes.
1 Q. At some stage, Mr. Radic, you thought that you had been indicted
2 by this Tribunal, didn't you?
3 A. No, I didn't have this information.
4 Q. Mr. Radic, didn't you at some stage believe that you had been
5 indicted by this Tribunal as a result of reports in the media?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right. We'll come to that tomorrow. But are you saying you
8 didn't think it was important to keep your own records of what happened
9 during this period of time?
10 A. Precisely that.
11 Q. All right.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that now be made Exhibit 2696.
13 Q. Now, I want to go back, please, to your positions, Mr. Radic. You
14 told us yesterday that you became the president of the Banja Luka
15 Municipal Assembly after the elections.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That before the election --
18 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, there's a --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: There's a transcript correction that I want to deal
21 with before it disappears from the screen. 46, line 5, the transcript
22 says that his answer about throwing away the notes was "what I'm saying is
23 that at this moment they couldn't be used for anything." And I'm told
24 that what he said was, "At that moment they couldn't be used for
1 JUDGE AGIUS: It is important.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: A difference between this and that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for pointing it.
4 Did you say "at that moment" or "at this moment" when you were
5 referring to the notepad with the notes?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, they are worthless. Then I had
7 them and I was referring to them when Mr. Mladenovic was being sacked.
8 MS. KORNER: I really don't want to spend any more time on this.
9 Q. But when did you actually get rid of them?
10 A. How should I know? Simply, I didn't keep them.
11 Q. Now, can we go back to where I was. You weren't a member of the
12 SDS at the time of the elections, but you joined after the elections. Is
13 that what you told us?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. By July of 1991, you had been elected to the main board of the
16 SDS. Had you not?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Together with from your area Mr. Kupresanin and Dr. Vukic?
19 A. Yes, I believe that Mr. Kupresanin was also there. It's possible.
20 Q. And Dr. Vukic?
21 A. Dr. Vukic was elected.
22 Q. And also from Celinac, Sveto Kovacevic?
23 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you whether Sveto Kovacevic was also
24 there, but it is possible.
25 Q. So as a member of the main board, you attended meetings with --
1 obviously of the main board. Is that right?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. At which policy for the SDS was formulated?
4 A. Yes. For the most part.
5 Q. And on the 14th of -- well, 14th, 15th of October 1991, the SDS
6 left the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Do you agree?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. All right. And some 12 days later in Banja Luka, a rally was
9 held, wasn't it, on the 26th of October?
10 A. You mean a rally, a gathering?
11 Q. I do.
12 A. Yes. It was.
13 Q. Could you have a look for a moment, please, at P471.
14 This is an SDS document. Is it signed and stamped by -- or signed
15 by Dr. Vukic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Dated the 23rd of October and saying that the rally which should
18 have taken place was now postponed until the 26th of October 1991.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the speakers, we can see Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Koljevic,
21 Mr. Kupresanin, Dr. Vukic, and yourself.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I'd like you to have a look at a news clip of this particular
24 rally. I'm just going to see whether we can get it on Sanction. If we
25 can't, we'll ask the video...
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Doesn't seem to be working.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's all right --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Ms. Korner. Microphone,
5 MS. KORNER: I thought we had put together this clip. It's
6 started. It's coming up in Sanction; however, it's not the right one.
7 Would Your Honour give me one moment. This is one of those days
8 which I want to forget about.
9 Your Honour, there's a transcript as well which we'll hand out.
10 Your Honour, can I say, the Defence were given the whole video, I
11 think, last Friday. But this is -- we only got it translated, this
12 excerpt, now.
13 All right, we can play it then, please.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MS. KORNER: No sound. You're getting sound.
16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... In Banja Luka the plebiscite for
17 all Serbs to live in one state was freely held, not lacking, of course,
18 offences and threats" --
19 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, I don't need the interpreters.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, before any questions are asked, I may
24 have some objections, but I wasn't given a transcript so I have no idea
25 what was being said. The second thing is that I'm told that the actual
1 words of Mr. Radic are not on the tape, but just TV Sarajevo's analysis of
2 what he said which could very well have been propaganda from TV Sarajevo
3 rather than his words, but I won't know until -- I couldn't follow that at
4 all because I didn't have the transcript or anything.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I object to this objection. First of
6 all, Mr. Ackerman could have said that he didn't have a transcript. The
7 reason I asked for no interpretation was --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Was precisely because everybody --
9 MS. KORNER: -- Everybody was given the transcript and
10 Mr. Ackerman never stated that. Secondly, if Mr. Ackerman wants to give
11 the answer to his witnesses, that's all right. But I was about to ask
12 that very question.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that is my objection. It is my understanding
14 that Mr. Radic's words are not on the tape. I didn't know because I
15 didn't have this.
16 MS. KORNER: This tape was disclosed last week.
17 Q. Mr. Radic, now that Mr. Ackerman has intervened, we can't hear
18 what you're saying. We have a voiceover from the reporter to this effect,
19 that you said: "Twice they slaughtered us. We have forgiven, but not
20 forgotten. If they try to do the same for the third time, we shall never
21 forgive nor forget regardless of how non-Christian it may be."
22 Did you say that?
23 A. Possibly. Possibly. It is possible. This journalist of Sarajevo
24 TV which was already working on behalf of promoting Mr. Izetbegovic's
25 ideas and the ideas of others who were working on the secession of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina, this was on the eve of the plebiscite. In light of the
2 fact that there had been a referendum for Bosnia's secession, disregarding
3 the opinion of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so there was an
4 outvoting of the Serbian people, and our response was this plebiscite.
5 And this rally preceded the plebiscite.
6 Q. Mr. Radic, the referendum for the independence of Bosnia took
7 place in February of 1992. This is October 1991. This had nothing to do
8 with the referendum, did it?
9 A. But there was already a rift in the assembly, and preparations
10 were underway for what was going to take place, which was to be the
12 Q. What was happening was that the Serbs were about to hold their
13 plebiscite in November. That's right, isn't it?
14 A. The Serbs were supposed to respond to the intentions of Muslims to
15 have Bosnia secede from Yugoslavia. And this rally, if you follow what is
16 being said, was dedicated to that. It was organised to have us heard.
17 The war was only six months away from us.
18 Q. It was a massive rally, as we can see, attended by thousands?
19 A. Correct. There were big rallies in Sarajevo, in Foca. There are
20 pictures and footages of that as well. And one has to see those footages,
21 analyse those footages to see what messages were sent from those rallies.
22 And there are also photos of flags, Croatian and Muslim flags, being tied
24 Q. All right. Mr. Radic, it is really not necessary to tell this
25 Court every time that the Croats or the Muslims or in other places things
1 were also done. Do you understand that what we're interested is in
2 Banja Luka and what happened there?
3 Now, you told us --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we give a number.
5 MS. KORNER: Just a minute, Your Honour, I haven't finished with
6 it yet.
7 Q. You told us when we started -- when I first asked you that you
8 wanted to maintain peace and harmony in Banja Luka. How were the words
9 you used "twice they have slaughtered us, we have forgiven but not
10 forgotten," et cetera, going to promote peace and harmony in Banja Luka?
11 A. First of all, it has just been said that this is not what I said,
12 that is this is a voiceover of the journalist who quoted me saying that.
13 Secondly, it was a conditional sentence, meaning if again things start
14 happening the way they happened in the Second World War, then we will not
15 be able to forget.
16 Q. Wasn't this an incitement to your audience, the thousands of
17 people we see there, against their Muslim and Croat neighbours?
18 A. It was a warning to those who had done it in the Second World War,
19 a warning to them not to do it again if they wanted for all of us to live
20 in the same state.
21 Q. We saw that there were placards there, the camera focussed on. Do
22 you agree that they contained slogans such as "Germans stop", "Down with
23 The Hague", "The devil may take him", "Serbs in one state", "Down with
25 A. I don't know what it said on these placards. I would have to look
1 at the footage again to see what it says on them.
2 Q. And finally on this, and it will probably be the end for today,
3 did one of the speakers say words for the effect that "Vienna could be
4 turned into Hiroshima"?
5 A. These are just inflammatory slogans which are thrown out at the
6 crowds at such similar rallies.
7 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Radic.
8 A. But I would kindly ask you once again to bear in mind that this
9 footage was made by TV Sarajevo, the same TV which did not say a single
10 word about what was going on in Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was already the
11 beginning of the media war against the Serbs and what the Serbs did.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may, then the video be made Exhibit
13 P2697, with the transcript 2697.1.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner. We have to stop here. We
15 will reconvene tomorrow --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner, Mr. Ackerman. Mr. Radic, we
18 have to stop here. We will continue tomorrow in the afternoon at 2.15,
19 Mr. Radic In the meantime, Madam usher can escort you..
20 Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Please be short, because if I miss my
21 appointment there's another three months, I'm told.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: I better let you go, then, Your Honour. There's a
23 problem with Exhibit P1268. We can take it up in the morning.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: But there's no translation of part of the exhibit,
1 and that's a problem.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please take note of that, Madam Registrar,
3 and single this document out for tomorrow morning, and we can start with
4 the problem if there's a problem.
5 MS. KORNER: Tomorrow afternoon, I think.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow afternoon. Thank you.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.00 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of
9 November, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.