1 Monday, 10 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar. Could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 And Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you follow in a

11 language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Please be seated.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MS. CHANA: May it please Your Honours, Sureta Chana, Julian

17 Nicholls, for the Prosecution, assisted by case manager Denise Gustin.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. And good morning to you all.

19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honours. David Cunningham

21 with John Ackerman and Aleksandar Vujic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good morning to you all.

23 Any preliminaries?

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: A couple of things, Your Honour. In going

25 through our database, we found that this case had given us a statement. I

1 have made copies and provided it to the Chamber. That statement as soon

2 as I found it in our database, I emailed it to the Prosecution. And it

3 just merely discusses his role in the arrest of the Mice. There's a

4 logistical matter I'd like to get the Chamber's feedback. We have put all

5 the English exhibits that we intend to use today on Sanction. What we

6 propose to do is to have a binder that already has the Serbian exhibits

7 pulled, tabbed, and we could direct him to that if that's okay with the

8 Court.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's okay with the Prosecution, it's okay with

10 the Court.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: They indicated they had no objection.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we will proceed. The important thing, I would

13 like to have those documents put on the ELMO at least for a while because

14 I want to see what's highlighted and what's not.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Okay.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: There are two documents that are highlighted, and

18 basically it's -- and I'll alert the Court --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And you understand what I mean.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And Mr. Ackerman will have them on Sanction and

21 have the relevant parts highlighted.

22 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, may I just say something here? We did

23 receive these -- the statement yesterday, which was Sunday, including the

24 exhibit list. I just want the record to reflect that we got it yesterday.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.

1 Before we bring in the witness, Madam Registrar, can you just

2 follow me, we are sitting this week through Thursday, stopping Friday?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: To give the Defence a chance to go on site as

5 requested.

6 25th of November which was a sitting day is now a holiday. The

7 Eid Al-Fitr holiday. Okay. 26th we're not scheduled to sit, but we will

8 be sitting.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, that week, 26, 27, 28, correct me if I am

11 wrong, Madam Registrar, we are sitting in the morning in Courtroom II.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, let's go to the first week in December, Monday

14 1st December right through Friday, 5th December. Which courtroom will we

15 be sitting and what time?

16 THE REGISTRAR: We will be sitting Courtroom I from 2.15 to 7.00.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have in the morning?

18 THE REGISTRAR: At the moment nothing scheduled in Courtroom I in

19 the morning.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Because the list that I had showed

21 Dragan Nikolic by mistake there putting us in the afternoon because of

22 that case. Now that case is over. The sentencing hearing was finished

23 last week, so whoever put that there in that week made a mistake. So if

24 you could transfer all the afternoon sittings to the morning, right?

25 THE REGISTRAR: [No microphone]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't hear you, because I have this and you have

2 the microphone switched off.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Perhaps we have to compromise in the sense that

4 sometimes in the morning Milosevic will be sitting in Courtroom I, and

5 another case will be in the morning too. Then we have to switch from

6 courtroom to courtroom.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, that's not a problem. The important thing

8 is that we sit in the morning rather than in the afternoon. So I leave

9 this matter in your hands. And while we proceed with the witness, perhaps

10 you can find out exactly -- the same applies to the following week, until

11 the 19th. Check whether there are any days when we are scheduled to sit

12 in the afternoon. And see if we could have them transferred to the

13 morning. Keep in mind also that on the 2nd of December, probably

14 Hadzihasanovic trial will start. So we'll have to find -- make sure that

15 we don't clash with that. All right? Thanks.

16 Let's bring the witness in, please. Madam usher.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no protective measures?

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Savic, and welcome to this

21 Tribunal. You are going to give evidence, and before you do so our rules

22 require that you enter a solemn declaration, that in the course of your

23 testimony you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

24 the truth. It's the equivalent of an oath. Please proceed. Read it out

25 loud, and that will be your solemn undertaking.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please be seated.

4 You know you have been summoned to give evidence by Mr. Brdjanin,

5 who's the accused in this case.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Which basically means that you are going to be asked

8 a series of questions first by his lawyer. In this case, it's going to be

9 Mr. Cunningham, the gentleman in the front row in the middle. He will

10 then be followed by the Prosecution, and Madam -- I take it you will be

11 cross-examining the witness?

12 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Will be cross-examining you.

14 The fact that you are a Defence witness does not entitle you to

15 draw any distinction or make any distinction between questions coming from

16 the Defence or questions coming from the Prosecution. The reason -- the

17 purpose for taking the oath, for making that solemn declaration, is, in

18 fact, the need and consequently the obligation on your part to answer each

19 question as fully and as truthfully as possible, irrespective of who is

20 putting the question to you.

21 Did I make myself clear?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Cunningham, he is all yours.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.

25 WITNESS: MILENKO SAVIC

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1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examined by Mr. Cunningham:

3 Q. Your name is Milenko Savic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In which municipality do you currently reside?

6 A. I currently reside in Prnjavor Municipality. I was born in

7 Hrvacani near Prijedor. Am I supposed to say anything else?

8 Q. What I'd like for you to do is just listen to the question, and

9 answer only the question. Don't volunteer any additional information. If

10 myself or the Prosecutor or the Chamber needs additional information from

11 you, they'll let you know. You were born in Prnjavor Municipality. Which

12 municipality do you currently work in?

13 A. Prnjavor.

14 Q. What is your position there?

15 A. I am an inspector for white-collar crime in the public security

16 station of Prnjavor.

17 Q. And how long have you been involved in law enforcement, been a

18 police officer?

19 A. I've worked since the 1st of April, 1990, that is for over 13

20 years I worked as a policemen.

21 Q. I'd like for you to tell the Chamber about your educational

22 experience. Did you attend secondary school?

23 A. Yes. I graduated from the school of economics in Banja Luka.

24 Then I obtained the associate degree in economics and eventually I got a

25 full university degree in economics from the University of Banja Luka.

1 Q. And when did you acquire your degree from Banja Luka University?

2 What year?

3 A. I graduated in 1980, and I obtained the associate degree in

4 economics in 1974.

5 Q. And while you were attending university, were you a full-time

6 student or did you also work while you were in university?

7 A. I started as a full-time student, but later on I worked. I worked

8 in Prnjavor Municipality.

9 Q. When you attended schools, did you attend schools with non-Serbs?

10 A. Yes. There were non-Serbs at the university. There were

11 non-Serbs in my high school.

12 Q. And while attending Banja Luka University, did you have non-Serb

13 professors?

14 A. As I was studying for my associate degree, I had more non-Serbian

15 professors than Serbian professors, whereas at the university, the ratio

16 was 50/50 when it came to non-Serbian and Serbian teachers.

17 Q. You told us you graduated with your university degree in 1980.

18 And became a police officer in 1990. I'd like for you to describe briefly

19 to the Chamber what you did in the ten years between 1980 and 1990. What

20 municipality did you work in first of all?

21 A. Between -- I started working in 1975 as an inspector. That was a

22 market inspector. Later on, I was an official in the local government. I

23 was the secretary for economy and finances. I was the head of that

24 department, that is. Then I was the director of a tax administration, the

25 vice-president of the executive council, the executive board, of Prnjavor

1 Municipality. And then on the 1st of April 1990, I was appointed the head

2 of the public security station in Prnjavor, the chief of police in

3 Prnjavor. So that would be my career in short.

4 Q. Did you prior to assuming the position as the head of the public

5 security station in Prnjavor, did you work as a reserve police officer as

6 well?

7 A. Yes. After my compulsory military service in 1975, until the

8 moment I was appointed the chief of the police, I was a member of the

9 reserve police of the public security station in Prnjavor. I attended

10 certain courses. I underwent certain training as a reserve policeman.

11 Q. Prior to 1990, were you ever a member of a political party?

12 A. Yes, I was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia,

13 that is, of the communist party of Yugoslavia if you want me to put it

14 that way.

15 Q. Were you ever a member of a socialist party?

16 A. Yes, I was a member of the socialist party from 1994, and that

17 would be my entire political engagement.

18 Q. So obviously you were never a member of the SDS?

19 A. I was never an SDS member. And I wouldn't be.

20 Q. You told us that in 1990, you were appointed the head of the

21 public security station. What qualified you to assume that position?

22 A. In order to become the chief of police in Prnjavor, according to

23 the regulations that were in effect in the ex-Yugoslavia, that is, in the

24 then Bosnia and Herzegovina, I had to meet the following criteria: I had

25 to have a full university degree. One of the four. I had to have a

1 degree in law, in economics, security and safety, or any other humanities.

2 I had to have certain work experience. Within that work

3 experience, three years in managerial position. And I was supposed to

4 have a bar exam -- not a bar exam, a state exam which qualified me to work

5 in a state institution.

6 Q. Was it required that you have any experience in administering or

7 heading up a governmental agency?

8 A. Yes. I was the head of one of the organs of the executive council

9 of Prnjavor Municipality. I was the secretary for economy there. And

10 that was one of the things that qualified me for this position.

11 Q. Who proposed you for this position?

12 A. At that time, I was proposed by municipal bodies. Proposals came

13 from the executive council, that is, from the executive board, from the

14 municipal assembly. So that's where the proposals came from.

15 Q. And who ultimately appointed you to your position?

16 A. The procedure was as follows: Once it was established that I met

17 all the criteria, I was nominated by the executive board of the municipal

18 assembly, and I was then appointed by the then minister of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina. I believe that his name was Besic. In any case, it was the

20 minister who -- in whose purview it was to appoint me to become the chief

21 of the police.

22 Q. In 1991 -- from 1990 through the end of 1992, obviously you were

23 originally assigned in Prnjavor. Did you get relocated to another

24 municipality during 1990 through 1992?

25 A. Between 1990 and 1992, I was the chief of police in Prnjavor.

1 From the end of April 1992 to the end of March 1998, I was relocated to

2 the public security centre in Banja Luka. And there I occupied several

3 different positions. During that period of six years, I worked in several

4 municipalities in the territory of Banja Luka, and I would spend anything

5 between three days to three months working in those different

6 municipalities.

7 Q. Focussing in on 1992 after you were transferred to Banja Luka, did

8 the nature of your job with the police, did it take you to

9 municipalities -- other municipalities during that time period, the rest

10 of 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is the -- in 1990 when you took over as chief of police in

13 Prnjavor, what was the ethnic makeup, roughly speaking, of that

14 municipality?

15 A. The municipality had about 50.000 inhabitants. About 13 to 14

16 per cent were Muslims. About 4 per cent were Croats. About 72 per cent

17 were Serbs. And there were also other nationalities like Ukrainians and

18 so on and so forth. In Prnjavor municipality at that time, there were 17

19 different ethnic groups residing.

20 Q. I'd like for you to tell the Chamber about the hierarchy within

21 the police in Bosnia-Herzegovina as it existed in 1991 and 1992. If we

22 were to look at this hierarchy, who would be at the very top of the

23 hierarchy?

24 A. At the very top of the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina was a minister. Minister was a member of the government of

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1 the then Bosnia and Herzegovina. He had his assistants. Those were

2 assistants for different segments within the Ministry of the Interior. So

3 there were people who were in charge of the uniformed police. There was a

4 person who was in charge of the crime prevention. The person who was in

5 charge for national security. A person in charge of general

6 administration, for finances and so on and so forth. So that was the

7 second echelon of people next to the minister.

8 Coming down the ladder, there were other people. The first

9 amongst them was chiefs of security services centres.

10 Q. Let me stop you right there. Where were the security service

11 centres located at, if you can remember?

12 A. The SBs mostly covered the regions of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So

13 there was a CSB in Mostar, a CSB Sarajevo, a CSB Zenica, CSB Tuzla, CSB

14 Doboj, CSB Banja Luka, and Prijedor.

15 Q. Which --

16 A. I may have omitted one or two, but that was basically the

17 structure.

18 Q. So which centre was Prnjavor affiliated with?

19 A. The public security station in Prnjavor was affiliated with

20 Banja Luka. Gradiska was also one of those public security stations

21 affiliated with Banja Luka.

22 Q. And what was the head or the chief of the centre called? Did he

23 have a specific title?

24 A. The chief of CSB Banja Luka. That was the title. And then there

25 was me, the chief of public security station in Prnjavor.

1 Q. Now, if the minister of the interior or any of his deputies gave

2 you an order, were you obligated to follow it in 1990, 1991, and 1992?

3 A. Yes. Minister was at the head of that organ and whatever orders

4 he issued we had to follow, providing those orders were in keeping with

5 the law.

6 Q. Would the same apply to the chiefs that were at the level below

7 the minister and his deputy ministers?

8 A. Yes. The same applied to the chief of CSB, also providing that

9 his orders were in keeping with the law and our internal regulations.

10 Q. All right. If the minister or any of his deputy ministers gave a

11 police officer an order and that order was not carried out, could that

12 police officer be punished? Could he face a sanction for not carrying out

13 the order of a superior?

14 A. Yes. This is regulated by the law and by our internal regulations

15 and should a subordinate refuse to carry out an order, he would be

16 disciplined.

17 Q. Okay. And the law that you're talking about, is that the law on

18 internal affairs?

19 A. Yes, the law on internal affairs of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

20 later on of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. During 1991 and 1992, did the president of the municipality or the

22 president of a municipal crisis staff have the authority to issue a direct

23 order to a police officer?

24 A. In 1991 and 1992, no, no, I don't think he did, because we

25 operated exclusively according to our own legal provisions and legal

1 documents.

2 Q. If a -- did presidents -- was it common for the president of the

3 municipality or of a crisis staff to make a request of the CSB?

4 A. I can't tell you about the CSB, but I can tell you about the

5 public security station.

6 Q. Okay. Was it common in that regard?

7 A. No. It wasn't common in 1991 and 1992 as regards the public

8 security station in Prnjavor.

9 Q. When you were the head of the public security station in Prnjavor,

10 did the president of the municipality ever try to order you to do a

11 specific act?

12 A. The president of the municipality was -- while I was the chief of

13 the public security station in Prnjavor could never issue an order to me.

14 That's how it was due to circumstances. There were talks and agreements

15 about certain ordinary matters, trivial matters, so to speak. For

16 example, escorting cargo, securing a rally, something of that sort. And

17 this was all regulated in our legal provisions. It's true that he never

18 issued an order to me, nor did he ever ask me to do anything unusual. Had

19 he done so, I would not have complied because I had very strict

20 instructions from the chief of the centre and the ministry. And those

21 orders were that I was to work in accordance with our legal provisions and

22 our regulations.

23 Q. And who was the chief of the centre who gave you the order that

24 you were to work within the legal provisions and regulations? What was

25 his name?

1 A. At that time it was Stojan Zupljanin.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, with your permission, I've got the

4 exhibits in the binder if Serbian if they can be tendered to the witness.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher, please.

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

7 Q. Mr. Witness, if you look in that exhibit book what you'll see are

8 red tabs on the right-hand side of the paper, and you'll see numbers on

9 the tabs. When I direct you to a specific document, what I'd like for you

10 to do is go through that document. I left many of these documents with

11 you last night, and I don't think I left the first one with you, which is

12 P25. In a minute I'm going to have you look at that document, but I want

13 to ask you some questions first.

14 In the multiparty elections with Prnjavor being a predominantly

15 Serb municipality, which political party won the elections?

16 A. At the multiparty elections of 1990, it was the Serbian Democratic

17 Party that won the majority of votes, and therefore the largest number of

18 seats in the municipal assembly and higher up.

19 Q. And the president of the municipality, what was his name?

20 A. His name was Nemanja Vasic.

21 Q. While you were in the Prnjavor, did the SDA still participate in

22 the government? Were they still participating?

23 A. The SDA were participating in the municipal government. And as

24 far as I can recall, they had seven or nine assemblymen in the local

25 assembly. I can't remember the exact number. And they also had two

1 officials in the executive board of the municipal assembly. That is, in

2 the executive branch.

3 Q. What about the HDZ? Were they participating in the government,

4 municipal government, when you left Prnjavor, to the best of your

5 recollection?

6 A. There were few Croats, only about 4 per cent. And they were

7 mostly in the villages of Kulasi, Drenova, Babanovci, so the HDZ was not

8 formally organised in the Prnjavor Municipality, although it was active.

9 Q. Okay. The first document I'm going to want you to look at is the

10 very first document there. It should have tab number 25 on it. That is a

11 document that was dated 19 December 1991 by the SDS main board in

12 Sarajevo. And this document is called: "Instructions for the

13 organisation and activities of the organs of the Serbian People in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina under extraordinary circumstances."

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, Mr. Ackerman tells me we need to

16 have the technicians turn on the Sanction programme.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Did the technicians -- Mr. Ackerman is suggesting

18 that he can't use the Sanction until and unless it's switched on. Can I

19 have a feedback from the technicians, please, at least letting me know if

20 there is a problem.

21 Which document is this in English?

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It's P25, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I don't want to waste time in the meantime.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I've got copies available, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you find P25 in English, please.

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1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Madam usher, the first page I'm going to use is

2 the one that has paragraph 3 on it, and I think it's already highlighted.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a word from the technicians, Madam

4 Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: She is calling someone else to come to the

6 courtroom now.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But the English version on the ELMO, please.

8 Which paragraph?

9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Paragraph 3, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Paragraph 3.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think it's already highlighted on...

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

14 Q. First of all, I noticed while we were dealing with the technical

15 questions, sir, that you were looking through the document. My first

16 question to you is have you ever seen this document before?

17 A. No, no, I have never seen it before.

18 Q. While you were in Prnjavor, did you ever hear any of the Serbs in

19 municipal government or any of the Serbs in that municipality discussing

20 this document and variant A and variant B and the contents of the

21 document?

22 A. No, no, I didn't. As I was not a member of the executive board of

23 the municipal assembly, I was not able to get hold of this plan. This is

24 the first time I see it.

25 Q. Okay. Paragraph 3, which should be in front of you, it's on the

1 first page, says that -- paragraph 3 says that the SDS municipal board

2 will immediately form a crisis staff of the Serbian people. And if you

3 look under the list of people underneath there, it says the chief of the

4 public security station or commander of the police station should be a

5 member of the crisis staff.

6 Were you ever a member of a crisis staff?

7 A. No, I wasn't. I was never a member of a crisis staff.

8 Q. If we look at paragraph 6 in that same document, paragraph 6 talks

9 about increasing security of critical facilities within the municipality.

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Is it here?

12 Q. We're looking for paragraph 6 on Exhibit 25.

13 A. Can you say what page it's on?

14 Q. You have the... It should either be on the very first page or the

15 second page of the text.

16 If you don't see it there, let me just go ahead and put the

17 question to you, because in our English version it clearly shows up. And

18 paragraph number 6 says this, sir. It says: "Increase security of

19 critical facilities within the municipality." You've found it?

20 A. Yes, yes, I've found it now, yes, I found it.

21 Q. You just reassured myself that I'm not going crazy.

22 Paragraph number 6, was -- in the first two or three months of the

23 year 1991, was there a feeling that war was approaching?

24 A. Yes. Yes, there was a feeling.

25 Q. And did you and the other police officers take steps to protect

1 critical facilities within the municipality?

2 A. We took steps, and we had a task to secure crucial facilities.

3 This was an ongoing task. And this refers to electrical power lines,

4 important bridges, telephone and telegraph communications, roads,

5 railways, and also we stepped up security measures in villages that were

6 of a multiethnic composition, especially the village of Lisuja and so on.

7 Q. Why did you take steps to ensure increased security for the

8 non-Serbian areas?

9 A. We were afraid of interethnic problems and clashes. And we had an

10 ongoing task to make the security situation as good and secure as possible

11 after the multiparty elections and to protect those communities because

12 there were members of minority populations, non-Serb populations, on the

13 territory of Prnjavor Municipality.

14 Q. Did you establish mixed patrols, mixed ethnicities patrolling in

15 these areas?

16 A. In all the villages where there were non-Serb inhabitants, we

17 formed exclusively mixed patrols. I won't go into a detailed list of

18 these villages. But under my orders, it was only mixed patrols that were

19 established comprising Serbs, Muslims, Croats, and members of other ethnic

20 groups.

21 Q. Did you have requests from the leaders of the non-Serbian

22 community to provide increased police presence in their villages or

23 hamlets?

24 A. Yes. This was especially evident in the Party of Democratic

25 Action. Mr. Husein Vukovic who was the president of the SDA in Prnjavor.

1 Also, some people who were Croats from Dragalovici and Kulasi.

2 Q. Okay. Look at -- and it appears that Sanction is now working,

3 Your Honours.

4 Look at paragraph number 11. It's going to be in that same

5 document, sir. Paragraph number 11 talks about carrying out specific

6 preparations for the protection of, and you'll see a list of four or five

7 things there. Take the time and read that to yourself.

8 With respect to paragraph number 11, did anyone either at the

9 centre in Banja Luka or any of your superiors ever give you this order to

10 carry out these preparations?

11 A. This particular order? No.

12 Q. Okay. If we go further down in this document, sir, you'll see

13 that it starts talking about -- there's a heading that says the second

14 stage of variant A. And in paragraph 2, there is a following quote. It

15 says: "Mobilise all police forces from the ranks of the Serbian people.

16 And in cooperation with the command posts and headquarters of the JNA,

17 ensure their gradual subordination."

18 Do you see that paragraph in your copy?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever receive an order from anyone with respect to this?

21 A. No, we had a completely different system of work. No.

22 Q. Now, if we look at that paragraph, it says: "Mobilise all police

23 forces from the ranks of the Serbian people." That suggests at least to

24 me that the police officers should all be members of the Serb ethnic

25 group. During the time that you were in Prnjavor, were there Serbs --

1 were there non-Serbs under your direct command?

2 A. Whenever I was chief of police in Prnjavor, I had both active-duty

3 and reserve policemen belonging to other ethnic groups in proportion to

4 the ethnic makeup of the population of the Municipality of Prnjavor.

5 Q. Now, you left Prnjavor on 1 April 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when you left 1 April 1992, were there still non-Serbs under

8 your command in Prnjavor?

9 A. When I left Prnjavor on the 2nd of April 1992, part of the

10 non-Serb policemen had left their work in the police station. I was aware

11 of that. But there was still a number of non-Serb policemen who remained

12 working in Prnjavor police station after my departure. This included

13 Muslims, Croats, Ukrainians, and they are still working in the police

14 station.

15 Q. In Prnjavor?

16 A. Yes. In Prnjavor.

17 Q. Why did the -- you said that some non-Serbian police officers

18 left. Do you know why they left?

19 A. Well, why did they leave? Some left because the uniforms and

20 insignia were changed. Some left because the composition of the police

21 force was not the same as it had been, and others left for economic

22 reasons. They saw what was coming. And some left because they were

23 fired. They were dismissed. So there were several reasons, not just one,

24 why they left the police.

25 Q. Let's take the second-to-the last one talked about. The economic

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1 reasons You said that they saw what was coming. Can you explain what you

2 meant about that?

3 A. People realised that there was going to be a war, that there would

4 be enormous problems, both political and economic. They lacked the means

5 to live more and more. More and more people were left without work. And

6 they thought of leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina and going to a western

7 country. There were many such cases in Prnjavor Municipality and

8 elsewhere, but it's well known that almost a third of the population of

9 Prnjavor are migrant workers either temporarily or permanently employed in

10 western Europe. So people had relatives working in Sweden, Germany. Most

11 of them went to Sweden. Some went to Germany.

12 Q. Were Serbs leaving because of these same economic reasons you're

13 talking about?

14 A. Yes, yes, quite a lot of Serbs left for the same reason.

15 Q. In your answer you also said that some left because they were

16 fired, they were dismissed. Why were they fired? Why were they

17 dismissed? Do you know?

18 A. In my time, there were policemen from the territory of Croatia and

19 other republics, such as Slovenia. They came from there, and we employed

20 them. They were Serbs who had been dismissed in Croatia or Slovenia for

21 ethnic reasons. And this probably happened after the 1st of April in our

22 area, that some policemen were dismissed because they were not Serbs.

23 This was a system of cause and effect.

24 Q. And by cause and effect, what do you mean by that?

25 A. Well, at least to my mind, as many Serbs had arrived from Croatia

1 and been accepted in the ranks of the police force, the then authorities

2 then carried out tit for tat dismissals, so that many non-Serbs stopped

3 working in the police in 1992. I think this was a response to the

4 authorities in Croatia, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

5 other parts of former Yugoslavia where there were interethnic problems.

6 Q. I want to have you tell the Chamber briefly about the police work

7 that was done by you and your police officers before you left.

8 Specifically I'd like to know, was there any distinction drawn within your

9 police force about -- between Serbs and non-Serbs? Were they treated

10 differently?

11 A. I didn't understand you. What time period are you referring to?

12 Q. I'm talking about the time, let's say, from the last six months of

13 your stay in Prnjavor, which would mean the last three months of 1990 and

14 the first three months of 1991.

15 A. Yes, I understand now. Until the 1st of April 1992, non-Serb

16 policemen had all the rights and enjoyed exactly the same rights as Serbs

17 in the public security station. I in the leadership of the police station

18 did not permit any sort of interethnic tensions. And while I was the

19 chief of police up to the 1st of April, none of the non-Serbs were

20 dismissed. They were all deployed, and they all enjoyed the same

21 treatment as Serb policemen.

22 Q. Now, with respect to those police officers under your command, how

23 did they work in the field? Were they -- did they treat all the ethnic

24 groups the same? Did they do their jobs professionally? How would you

25 characterise the police officers under your command, during that same time

1 period, last three months of 1991 through 1992? First three months of

2 1992.

3 A. I can state responsibly that the policemen acted fully

4 professionally. There were patrols composed of mixed ethnicity, and they

5 worked on the territory of the entire municipality. This refers to both

6 the active-duty and the reserve policemen under my command.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, before we continue, we need to

8 correct this. And I thank Judge Taya for attracting my attention to this.

9 Page 22, lines 13 and 14, 1990 and 1991 should read 1991 and 1992

10 respectively.

11 Let's continue.

12 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

13 Q. I'm going to change topics on you now, and I'm done with

14 Exhibit Number 25.

15 Who was the chief of the centre in Banja Luka?

16 A. It was Stojan Zupljanin.

17 Q. And in the last three or four months of 1991 and the first three

18 or four months of 1992 while you were still the chief of police in

19 Prnjavor, did you have meetings with Stojan Zupljanin?

20 A. Yes, I had meetings with him. They were regular weekly meetings.

21 And it was not just me who attended those meetings, but also other chiefs

22 from the region.

23 Q. And at these weekly meetings, on the average how many chiefs or

24 their representatives would be at these meetings with Zupljanin?

25 A. It depended on the situation and on the specific things that were

1 to be discussed. If we were discussing crimes, then it would be heads of

2 crime departments. If it was public order, then it would be chiefs of

3 police. So it all depended on the situation and on the issues that were

4 discussed at those meetings.

5 Q. In these meetings while you were the chief of police in Prnjavor,

6 did the subject of paramilitary groups ever come up?

7 A. Yes. That was the most usual topic, and it was on the agenda of

8 every -- almost every meeting. Throughout 1991, throughout 1992, and the

9 beginning of 1993, that was a very common topic.

10 Q. And did you discuss the disarming of Serb paramilitaries -- excuse

11 me, the disarming of paramilitaries?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Which paramilitary groups, what ethnicity was the primary focus of

14 these meetings if you can tell us?

15 A. We mostly discussed Serb paramilitaries, but we also discussed

16 other paramilitaries composed of other ethnic groups but which were not

17 within the scope of our municipality. We mostly discussed those that were

18 in our territory, and we discussed what to do with them. That was my

19 biggest problem, my most pronounced problem at the time.

20 Q. In the binder on the desk, I want you to look at red tab that has

21 number 82 on it. And let me know when you have located that document.

22 A. Yes, I've found it. I've found it.

23 Q. This is a letter signed by the chief of the centre, Stojan

24 Zupljanin, directed to a number of different entities, discussing, does it

25 not, the problems of armed groups within the territory covered by the

1 centre?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when you talked about discussion of the problem of armed

4 Serbian paramilitaries within the region, is this document indicative of

5 the centre's concern for these paramilitary groups?

6 A. Yes, this is not just an indication. This is what really

7 happened.

8 Q. One of the paramilitaries was Veljko Milankovic's group, one of

9 the groups of paramilitaries operating within this area?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he a subject of concern?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you and other chiefs receive direct orders from the chief of

14 the centre to take down and arrest Veljko Milankovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Why was Milankovic a concern to public security?

17 A. Veljko Milankovic's paramilitary were active in Prnjavor. They

18 threatened peace and order and security in the municipality. They caused

19 problems. They caused trouble. Not only in Prnjavor, but also in the

20 general region of Prnjavor. And that resulted in some problems. I wanted

21 him disarmed or placed under the command of the Yugoslav People's Army.

22 At those meetings, we discussed how to disarm him and neutralise his

23 activities in the municipality of Prnjavor and in the general area.

24 Q. You say something interesting when you say "I wanted him disarmed

25 or placed under the command of the JNA." What was the thinking with

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1 respect to placing him under the command of the JNA? The reason I bring

2 that up, it seems odd because on hand you call him a criminal, and on the

3 other hand you want him under the control of the JNA. What was the

4 rationale or the thinking --

5 A. When I say under the control of the JNA, this would mean that all

6 his members would be disarmed and incorporated within regular units, not

7 as the entire unit but every individual according to his specialty should

8 have been put in various units of the JNA. In simple words, this

9 paramilitary unit should have been disbanded and put under the control of

10 the JNA. They were all military conscripts in any case.

11 Q. Okay. Well, were you involved in arresting Mr. Milankovic?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. When did that happen?

14 A. It happened in mid-October 1992 or in late October 1992.

15 Q. And by this time, you had left Prnjavor and gone to Banja Luka?

16 A. Not 1992. I apologise. It was in 1991. I apologise.

17 Q. Okay. Where was he arrested at, in your municipality?

18 A. Yes. In the territory of Prnjavor Municipality.

19 Q. Tell the Chamber how his arrest came about.

20 A. There were problems, and I informed of these problems the chief of

21 public security of Banja Luka every day. At one of the meetings the plans

22 were made to disarm Veljko Milankovic's group. I conducted an operation

23 with assistance of policeman who had arrived from the CSB. They came to

24 assist us in Prnjavor. The group was disarmed. Veljko and his aides were

25 arrested. Their weapons were seized and handed over to the JNA. Criminal

1 reports or various criminal reports were filed against Veljko for various

2 criminal acts that he had committed.

3 Q. And was he taken into custody?

4 A. Yes, he was taken into custody, and he was remanded for about a

5 month, for over 20 days in any case. I don't remember exactly how long he

6 was in custody.

7 Q. At this time how many men were in his group?

8 A. At that time, there were about 60 or so men in his group. They

9 started with 21 men, and then their size increased to 60. Their number

10 varied, but at that time there were about 60 people in his group.

11 Q. And when Veljko was arrested, were any of his men arrested with

12 him?

13 A. Yes. Two or three others were taken into custody. They were soon

14 released, but he remained in prison. They were all taken into custody,

15 and then after the initial interviews, they were all released. There was

16 screening, after which they were released, and he was taken to the CSB in

17 Banja Luka.

18 Q. Was the arrest of Veljko taken as a direct result of the order of

19 the director of the centre in Banja Luka?

20 A. Yes, the order came from Banja Luka upon my insistence I think

21 it's fair to say.

22 Q. Did you inform Mr. Zupljanin about Mr. Milankovic's arrest?

23 A. Yes, but Stojan was directly involved. I only informed him when

24 Veljko was actually taken into custody, when he was apprehended. He was

25 up to speed about the events all the time.

1 Q. Is that what you mean when you say he was directly involved?

2 A. Yes, he planned the whole operation with me, the plans were drawn

3 on the previous day.

4 Q. You told us that Milankovic was released after 20 days, 3 weeks,

5 something like that. What was your reaction when you found out this man

6 you had arrested, insisted on being arrested, was released?

7 A. I learned that around midnight from my employees. I didn't know

8 previously that he would be released. All of us in the public security

9 station were shocked. We were embittered when we learned that he had been

10 released because we knew that we would again have problems with him.

11 Q. Did you ever call Stojan Zupljanin in Banja Luka to find out what

12 had happened? Talk to him about the release?

13 A. Yes. I called the chief of police. He was also surprised and

14 angry. And he told me "I really don't know what to do. I don't know how

15 to go on from here."

16 Q. You told us that there was -- and I think it was your thoughts,

17 that he could be controlled if he was placed under the control of the

18 army. Do you know whether or not that ever happened?

19 A. Later on he was placed under control of the 1st Krajina Corps,

20 together with his unit. What was the form of that control, I don't know,

21 but I know that after I left he had been placed under the control of the

22 then JNA.

23 Q. In that binder in front of you, sir, there is an exhibit tabbed

24 400. If you look on page 5 -- and let me identify this for the record.

25 This is in evidence. It is a 28 July 1992 report on paramilitary

1 formations in the territory of the Serbian Republic of BiH. It is -- at

2 the top appears the BH Army main staff department of intelligence and

3 security affairs.

4 If we look at page 5, we see the following: "The detachment of

5 Veljko Milankovic from Prnjavor has 150 men and is, as of recently,

6 formally under the command of the 1st KK. Members of this detachment are

7 involved in extensive looting and recently attacked the Tactical Group 3

8 Command Post, arresting one SRBH Army colonel in the process."

9 Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know why he wasn't arrested and kept in jail rather than

12 incorporating him into the army?

13 A. Here, a group of 150 men are mentioned. He had less men than

14 that, so I don't know where this number comes from. Why he was put under

15 the command of the 1st KK, I don't know. But I remember having insisted

16 of him being placed under the command of the JNA. But even after that, he

17 continued his usual practices; that is, his group continued whatever they

18 were doing before that. And why the measures were not taken at the time

19 in keeping with the law on the army, I really wouldn't know.

20 Q. Okay. You told us that Milankovic was a topic of the meetings,

21 the weekly meetings that you attended with the chief of the centre in

22 Banja Luka. Let me ask you this: At those meetings that you attended,

23 was there ever any discussion planning for Serb police officers to expel

24 non-Serbian members of the municipality?

25 A. No, not at those meetings, no.

1 Q. Looking back at those meetings, was there ever anything other than

2 legitimate police work or security concerns discussed at these meetings?

3 A. At those meetings, nothing. Now, whether there were things

4 discussed elsewhere, I don't know. At those meetings that I attended, we

5 discussed nothing but the regular police work, and the regular police work

6 at that time was difficult enough.

7 Q. I'm assuming that you also had contact with Stojan Zupljanin over

8 the phone during this time period. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In these telephone conversations, were there any discussions

11 planning of the Serbs to take over the Krajina and expel the non-Serbian

12 population? Was that ever broached in any private conversation that you

13 had with the chief of the centre in Banja Luka?

14 A. I can't remember, but I don't think so. However, the general

15 situation was such that one could sense it in the air.

16 Q. Sense what in the air?

17 A. There was the war psychosis. There was war in Croatia. There

18 were paramilitaries, the Green Berets, the HOS. We were on this side

19 here. There were several municipalities which were blocked. The Serbian

20 population in those municipalities was encircled. So the situation had

21 already come to a head, and we were just waiting for things to explode.

22 Q. You told us that your final day as the chief of police in Prnjavor

23 was 1 April 1992. Do you know why -- what happened with your job?

24 A. On the 1st of April, I was told that I would be replaced by

25 Vincic Radislav, and I was told that I would no longer be chief and that

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1 other heads of department would no longer be heads of department, that

2 from then on we would be required to take the leave of absence and that

3 our further engagement would be decided on by Stojan Zupljanin. Obviously

4 there were some complaints. However, we understood what the situation

5 was, and we decided to take this decision and leave our jobs.

6 Q. Who gave you the news? Who told you that you were being replaced?

7 A. In the course of the previous two or three days, Stojan Zupljanin

8 indicated to me that I would no longer be chief, and I was told directly

9 by the newly appointed chief of police, Radoslav Vincic.

10 Q. And were you given a reason why you were being replaced?

11 A. No. No reasons were given. But I assumed -- I knew why I was

12 being replaced.

13 Q. Why is that?

14 A. In political terms, I did not fit, and I did not meet

15 requirements. I was not an SDS member. I was against the war. And I was

16 against the new organisation of the police in terms of its ethnic

17 composition and in terms of its organisation.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Cunningham.

19 As a policeman or as a member of the police corps, could you

20 belong to a political party, or was it prohibited at the time?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, it was not prohibited.

22 You could belong to a party. And not only that you could, but it was one

23 of the requirements.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

25 Mr. Cunningham.

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. When you talk about the new organisation of the police in terms of

3 its ethnic composition, what are you referring to?

4 A. I believe then, and I still believe, that the police should

5 reflect the ethnic composition of the municipality where it is active,

6 regardless of the fact that the municipality is in the Republika Srpska

7 under the Serbian government. So it was my belief that the police should

8 also have non-Serb members in proportion to the ethnic composition of the

9 municipality.

10 Q. And was that changing or about to change when you left?

11 A. After I left, things started changing in the public security

12 station in Prnjavor.

13 Q. And going back to what we talked about earlier, your next job in

14 Banja Luka, did it take you to Prnjavor during the rest of 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And although --

17 A. Depending on the situation.

18 Q. And although the ethnic composition of the police force had

19 started to change in -- after you left, were there still non-Serbs working

20 within the police force when you would go there in 1992?

21 A. Yes. Yes, and some of them have stayed until this very day.

22 Q. You also talked about how you were against the new organisation of

23 the police in terms of its very organisation. What did you mean by that?

24 A. I believed that people working in the police should be

25 professionals rather than politically fit. And people who started joining

1 the police at that time were people who were politically correct, and I

2 was against that. I wanted only professionals to work in the police.

3 Q. You were transferred to Banja Luka?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what was your job title in Banja Luka?

6 A. I was an inspector for the white-collar crime.

7 Q. Okay. And who -- were you still under the control of the director

8 in Banja Luka?

9 A. Yes. I was under direct control of the CSB, its department for

10 the white-collar crime. The head of the CSB at the time was still

11 Stojan Zupljanin, but he was not my direct superior. I did not report to

12 him directly.

13 Q. And briefly tell us what the new duties in this new position

14 involved?

15 A. My new duties fell under the area of the white-colour crime,

16 money laundering, smuggling, tax evasion, abuse of position in economy and

17 in services. So I had a wide range of duties and tasks.

18 Q. When did you arrive in Banja Luka? Do you remember?

19 A. I arrived in Banja Luka on the 20th of April 1992.

20 Q. So I take it you were not present when the SOS arrived in Banja

21 Luka in early April? Is that true?

22 A. That is true. I wasn't present.

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours, I'm about to go into a new area if

24 this is a good place to break.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Savic, we are going to have a 25-minute

1 break, which basically means we will reconvene at roughly 10 to 11.00.

2 Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You may proceed.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

9 Q. When we left off, I was about to talk to you about the conditions

10 in Banja Luka. From your arrival, the second half of April 1992, until

11 the end of 1992, you told us in the context of your job as a white-collar

12 crime investigator for the centre that you travelled extensively

13 throughout the region in 1992. I want you to think about the places that

14 you went to in 1992, and compare that to Banja Luka in 1992. How would

15 you rate Banja Luka in terms of safety for its inhabitants as compared to

16 those other municipalities?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM:

19 Q. Your microphone wasn't on, so start from the beginning.

20 A. As an inspector, I visited almost all the municipalities in the

21 area and further afield, and I spent the most time in Grahovo, Petrovic,

22 Kljuc, Prnjavor you know about. Gradiska, Laktasi, and other

23 municipalities. These municipalities, with the exception of Gradiska, in

24 this part were affected by the war. And going out into the field, I can

25 say that I was happiest when I was returning to Banja Luka where I had

1 temporary accommodation. And this was because Banja Luka for me and for

2 most of the population was one of the safest towns, unlike Mrkonjic and

3 Sipovo where we also arrested criminals and disarmed them. Banja Luka in

4 my view was naturally the safest town at the time. And Banja Luka now has

5 over 200.000 inhabitants. At that time, it was one of the centres of the

6 then Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I felt far safer there than I did in my

7 native Prnjavor.

8 I'm saying this because there were fewer uniformed soldiers there.

9 There were fewer incidents. They were rare in Banja Luka, unlike other

10 places such as Sipovo, Mrkonjic, or Prnjavor. In Banja Luka, there were

11 no paramilitary troops [Realtime transcript read in error "there were

12 paramilitary troops"], and this was another reason why it was a safer town

13 than others. That's why I feel that Banja Luka was a relatively good

14 place to be.

15 Q. Does that mean that there were no problems in Banja Luka?

16 A. No, no, it doesn't mean that there were no problems at all. But

17 they were not as bad as in other places as regards security. I'm only

18 speaking in terms of security. There were incidents, but they were

19 marginal and minor in comparison to Sipovo or Bosanski Petrovac, for

20 example.

21 Q. The crimes that you were investigating in Banja Luka and the other

22 municipalities, were you only investigating non-Serbs? Were non-Serbs

23 only being charged in your investigations?

24 A. I apologise. I wasn't investigating those kind of crimes, but

25 only economic and other white-collar crimes. And for the most part, I

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1 investigated Serbs. I think there was only one Muslim against whom I

2 filed a criminal report. For the most part, they were all Serbs. It was

3 mostly Serbs who committed those kind of crimes that I was in charge of.

4 So as far as I was concerned, the non-Serbs were not investigated, but I

5 know that all criminals were investigated in the police overall. And I

6 know that measures were taken against both Serbs and members of other

7 ethnic groups who committed crimes.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours, I've got an error in the

9 transcript. LiveNote page 35, line 13. It reflects that he says that

10 there were paramilitaries, paramilitary troops in Banja Luka. He said

11 that there were no paramilitary troops.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: There were no, no. That's what I heard anyway.

13 Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: You're welcome, Your Honour.

15 Q. With respect to -- did you have contact with police officers who

16 were assigned to investigate cases within Banja Luka Municipality itself?

17 A. Yes, due to circumstances we did have contact. And of course,

18 there were policemen who took certain measures against those who stole

19 people's cars, broke into their flats. They were armed people. There was

20 mistreatment and so on. I remember some details, some I probably don't.

21 But I know that this was a regular task of the security services in the

22 Republika Srpska, in the then Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Banja Luka.

23 Policemen did their jobs professionally, and also policemen in my line of

24 work.

25 Q. Getting back to the question I asked you about Banja Luka, based

1 on your conversations and your observations, conversations with and your

2 observations of officers working in the Banja Luka Municipality, were they

3 neglecting the complaints of the non-Serbian population? Were they

4 treating the non-Serb population differently?

5 A. In my department, it was all fully professional. There was no

6 neglect. I know that in other departments, they also acted on complaints.

7 Maybe they didn't always, but I can state and affirm that in my department

8 we acted on every complaint. Our chief insisted on giving priority to

9 non-Serbs. That was my direct superior, to non-Serbs who filed

10 complaints.

11 Q. And do you know if other departments followed the same approach

12 that your department did?

13 A. Well, some departments did. I gleaned that from private

14 conversations with my colleagues from other departments. There were also

15 non-Serbs employed in the centre among the inspectors and other employees

16 so that what I knew I knew mainly from private conversations. In my

17 department, this was a priority. My superior always gave priority to

18 that.

19 Q. I want to follow up on something you just said, that there were

20 also non-Serbs employed in the centre. Was that throughout 1992, that

21 there were non-Serb investigators and officers?

22 A. I can give you their names, those who are still employed there.

23 There were Muslims, there were Croats working with me, Ukrainians, and

24 members of other ethnic groups, and I can even tell you their names.

25 Their first and last names.

1 Q. I don't think that's necessary.

2 You told us earlier while you attended school in Banja Luka, your

3 secondary school and your preuniversity studies, and your university

4 studies that you had non-Serbian friends and non-Serbian professors.

5 During 1992 did you have the opportunity to speak with your former

6 colleagues from your student days?

7 A. Yes. I still have these friends, and I had them during the war.

8 Some left. Some stayed behind. But we kept in touch. I kept in touch

9 with my colleagues and my teachers, my professors, who were non-Serbs, and

10 I can give you their names, too.

11 Q. Could you tell us how, if at all, the war was affecting them or

12 how the life in Banja Luka in 1992 was affecting them?

13 A. My views and theirs differed very little. When we exchanged

14 opinions, we had the same standpoint about the war, about what was

15 happening in Yugoslavia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, about the reasons for

16 the interethnic tensions and conflicts. We all thought that we were worse

17 off than before. Some left. Some for economic reasons; others for

18 security reasons. Some also, of course, had problems. And we all

19 thought, in fact, that things had gone from bad to worse.

20 Q. During the time that you were in Banja Luka working in these

21 various municipalities doing white-collar crime investigations, did you

22 ever hear discussions, conversations about the red combi that was used to

23 seize people and the subject of many complaints? Did you know about that?

24 A. In 1995, 1996, I think it was in 1996 that I heard about a van, a

25 combi, but not a red one, a yellow one. I only heard about this after the

1 war in 1996. In some conversations among policemen, there was a red or a

2 yellow combi van that was mentioned. But I heard this only after the war,

3 not during the war when certain investigations were starting.

4 Q. The investigation of what I'll call street crime, violent street

5 crime, was that within your realm of responsibility?

6 A. As for street crime, that's a broad concept. But if you're

7 referring to black marketeering, then it was, yes.

8 Q. Let me interrupt you. I tried to cross cultures and give you an

9 American's definition of street crime. When I talk about street crime,

10 I'm talking about robbery, burglary, car theft. Things of that nature.

11 Was that within your realm of responsibility when you were in Banja Luka?

12 A. Yes, yes. Yes, in part, especially taking vehicles away from

13 people, both Serbs and non-Serbs, taking goods away from people. That

14 fell within my purview, and this is where we took measures and filed

15 criminal reports in every such case. But this only had to do with goods,

16 money, cars, and such things.

17 Q. Now while you were in Banja Luka during April through the end of

18 1992, did you become aware of an entity known as the ARK Crisis Staff?

19 A. Yes. Yes, I knew it existed. It was not a secret. It was

20 published in the media.

21 Q. Okay. Now, in -- I want you to go back to the notebook that's in

22 front of you and look for the red tab marked 202, because we're going to

23 talk about Exhibit 202. Once you find it, I'm going to direct your

24 attention to paragraph 23. I think it has been highlighted for you in

25 yellow highlights. Do you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This is a document dated 20 May from the Banja Luka security

3 service centre conclusions dating back to 6 May 1992. And it's signed

4 by -- attributed to the chief of the centre, Stojan Zupljanin. I want you

5 to look at paragraph number 23 and read that to yourself.

6 That paragraphs says: "In all our activities, we are obliged to

7 observe all measures and to apply all procedures ordered by the

8 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region."

9 First of all, did you ever see this order, physically see it?

10 A. No. If I had been the chief of police at the time, I would

11 probably have seen it because it would have arrived by dispatch. But as

12 things were, no, I never saw it physically.

13 Q. Okay. Did your supervisor ever talk with you about paragraph

14 number 23?

15 A. You mean in the department I worked in?

16 Q. Yes, sir.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. Was there ever any discussion among you and the other

19 investigators about having to abide by this paragraph number 23?

20 A. There were informal conversations, but professionally speaking all

21 policemen trained in that time, we all adhered to the commands issued by

22 our superiors and the minister. I see this was in May 1992, but there are

23 instructions dating from 1991 -- yes, 1991, where Stojan Zupljanin says

24 the opposite of this, where he orders us to obey exclusively orders coming

25 from him and the minister, not from municipal authorities. Then there

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1 were no crisis staffs. We were not to obey crisis staffs or other civil

2 bodies. So there was a dispatch where we were told to adhere to

3 instructions and orders from the minister, or rather the chief of the

4 public security centre or other people authorised by them. I am now

5 speaking of 1990 and 1991.

6 Q. Okay. Now, in this order, you know from looking at it, it dates

7 from 6 May 1992. Was that directive in paragraph 23 -- as far as you

8 know, was that ever implemented by you or any other member of the police

9 force?

10 A. Whether it was implemented, I couldn't say because it depended on

11 the chief of police in each particular municipality. I can say that I

12 would not accept this unless I received written instructions to that

13 effect from my superior or from the minister.

14 Q. Okay. Do you know if -- you told us how in 1990 and 1991 there

15 were orders to the contrary; that is, you only obey the minister or the

16 chief of the security centre. Do you know after the date of this

17 document, which is -- it's in May of 1992, whether there were orders,

18 directives, that went back to what was the procedure in 1991 and 1990?

19 A. I think this was written just as a matter of form. We obeyed the

20 chief of the security service centres and the minister. I think this is

21 something that was simply put there. We did the same -- we operated in

22 the same way we had before. It was -- the orders we received always came

23 from our superiors, and I'm referring now to uniformed policemen. They

24 received instructions from their superiors, not the crisis staff. And

25 this was not mentioned. This is a very specific area, and I know that we

1 worked only under instructions coming from Stojan or from the ministry.

2 We had our own organisation, just as every other police force has, and

3 this was simply something that was put on paper.

4 Q. All right. I'm going to change topics on you now. And I want you

5 to look in that book at Exhibit P388. It should be on the tab. Because

6 I'm going to talk to you about Teslic and the Mice.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In 1992, did you receive -- were you tasked to go to Teslic to

9 deal with a problem in Teslic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what was the problem that the municipal authorities in Teslic

12 were having?

13 A. I think it was on the 28th of June 1992, or maybe the 27th of June

14 1992. A few of us, including Predrag Radulovic, known as Pile, myself,

15 Dusan Kos, and some other inspectors were summoned to Stojan Zupljanin's

16 office. He dictated a task to us, or rather he gave us our instructions

17 orally. And then he said to Predrag -- should I go on? He said to

18 Predrag that we should go to Teslic. Predrag knew about this already.

19 And he said: "Well, I've given you Milenko as well. He has experience

20 with paramilitaries and organising a station."

21 Q. Let me stop you right there. What was the problem in Teslic?

22 A. The problem in Teslic was, at least what I heard about it at the

23 meeting, that there was a paramilitary unit similar to something that had

24 happened in Prnjavor in 1991. That is, there were paramilitaries acting

25 illegally on the ground, confiscating weapons, goods, driving people out

1 of their houses, robbing them, stealing money and so on. And I understood

2 that the situation was similar but far worse than had been the case in

3 Prnjavor because in Prnjavor there were policemen around who were more

4 efficient.

5 Q. Now, the Mice in Teslic, did they differentiate between the

6 non-Serb and the Serbian population when they would commit crimes?

7 A. In part, maybe they did. But there were also Serbs, wealthy

8 Serbs, who had been robbed, and the Serbs suffered quite a lot, too.

9 There were also confiscations of vehicles from Serbs, robberies,

10 mistreatment, and so on. So that the army also at one point objected to

11 the activities of that paramilitary unit.

12 Q. Now, where were the police -- why couldn't they deal with the Mice

13 in Teslic? You said earlier that they were -- in Prnjavor, you had

14 policemen who were more efficient. What was the problem with the police

15 force in Teslic?

16 A. When these paramilitaries who had arrived from Doboj, and there

17 was a large number of them, when they arrived in Teslic, the first thing

18 they did was to put the police under their total control. The chief of

19 police, they practically drove him away from the station. The commander

20 as well. And the police had to obey their orders or they would have

21 problems involving firearms. The police did complain, but there was

22 nothing they could do. That's why the police could not act efficiently

23 for the month and a half or two while these people were in Doboj. A

24 similar situation could have occurred in Prnjavor, but we prevented it.

25 Q. Now, what specific task did you and Mr. Radulovic and others get

1 from Stojan Zupljanin?

2 A. Predrag Radulovic was the chief of police. Dusan Kos was the

3 police commander. I was the chief of the criminal investigations police

4 in Teslic. And we went to Teslic with this task. Our chief objective was

5 to disarm the paramilitary unit to document what had happened and to file

6 criminal reports with a competent court. That was our main objective.

7 Q. You say in your answer, you say: Mr. Radulovic was the chief of

8 police, Mr. Kos was the police commander, and you were the chief of the

9 criminal investigation police. Are those designations --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. They're designations you received from the director of the centre.

12 Correct?

13 A. We got a general task, and that was the task with which we went to

14 Teslic between the 27th and the 28th of June 1992.

15 Q. Now, when you arrived in Teslic, what did you find or who did you

16 find in the police station and the jails within the municipality?

17 A. First of all, when we arrived in Teslic on the morning of the

18 29th of June, we organised the army. There were about 700 soldiers. And

19 first we took the police station with the soldiers. Then the hotel where

20 the paramilitaries were accommodated, we disarmed them. There were two

21 casualties. One person was killed among the paramilitaries and one on our

22 side, among the policemen.

23 Q. Let me stop you and let's break this down because you said one of

24 the first things you did was we took the police station with the soldiers.

25 What do you mean by that?

1 A. We entered the police station which was under the control of the

2 paramilitaries. There we disarmed the members of the paramilitary unit

3 and called on all policemen to gather in the public security station for a

4 meeting in order to discuss their further work and operations. Some of

5 the soldiers went off in the direction of the hotel where most of the Mice

6 were accommodated. And there, they disarmed them and arrested them.

7 Q. We'll get there in just a minute. When you were within the police

8 station, were there people in custody within the police station?

9 A. Yes, there were about 60 of them, I think.

10 Q. And what ethnicity were those people that were in custody in the

11 police station?

12 A. I think most of them were non-Serbs. I didn't see this myself,

13 but I was told about it. One was a Jew, and there were a few Serbs, one

14 or two.

15 Q. Now, were those the only 60 people being held in custody in the

16 Teslic Municipality, or were there other people?

17 A. No. This was just one location. There were two other locations

18 where there were non-Serbs. This was the playing field in Banja Teslic,

19 and the building of the Territorial Defence staff. There was a building

20 with several services in it, but I wasn't there myself because my task had

21 only to do with the police station and the organisation of the policemen.

22 But I know that all these centres were dissolved, and the people were

23 allowed to go home.

24 Q. Now, when we talk about the people, what ethnicity are we talking

25 about in these facilities that you've just described? Are they Serbian or

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1 non-Serb?

2 A. For the most part, they were Croats and Muslims. There were also

3 others. I wasn't that familiar with Teslic, and it was Predrag Radulovic

4 who dealt with those details because he was a local man, a native of

5 Teslic.

6 Q. Okay. And why were these -- the non-Serbs in the police station

7 and these facilities that you just described, why were they released?

8 A. Well, that was the conviction of the team. People were not to

9 blame for belonging to another ethnic group. And this was also the order

10 of Stojan Zupljanin, the then chief of security service centre. First we

11 had to see whether there were criminals among them.

12 Q. Okay. So the release of this -- and how many non-Serbs do you

13 believe were released when you and the other officers arrived in Teslic?

14 A. I think there were about 1.350 people in those three locations. I

15 don't have the exact figure, but it has been recorded. I think there were

16 over a thousand people.

17 Q. And that was done under the directive of the chief of the centre,

18 Stojan Zupljanin. Correct?

19 A. Correct. He issued us with those orders. But even had he not

20 done so, we would have done that on our own. But he said: "Arrest them

21 and disband or dissolve these collection centres."

22 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the last area, and that is the actual

23 disarming and capture of the Mice. You told us earlier that the army was

24 involved in it, and there might have been 700, 750 troops. Was this a

25 procedure where you worked in conjunction with the army?

1 A. We tried to reach an agreement with the army. It was mostly

2 Predrag Radulovic who was in charge of that, but I do have this

3 information. And one battalion of the Army of Republika Srpska was put at

4 Predrag Radulovic's disposal. Predrag Radulovic also known as Pile. And

5 on the night in question, we developed a plan as to how we should carry

6 this out. And in the morning, at 5.00 a.m., in a factory compound, we

7 began the operation, as we say in the police. And that's how we started

8 implementing our plan. And unfortunately, this had tragic consequences

9 because two people were killed.

10 After they were disarmed and taken to a temporary prison, that was

11 all we were able to do, help arrived from Banja Luka. Inspectors,

12 professionals. And the police station in Teslic began operating normally.

13 Q. Okay. Let's go back and talk about the members of the Mice that

14 were taken into custody. First of all, did you manage to take each and

15 every member of the Mice into custody?

16 A. We took 21 men. That was the bulk of that group.

17 Q. Okay. And were they detained in custody?

18 A. Four or five were released during the investigation because we

19 realised that they were only members of the group and that they did not

20 commit any crimes. We filed criminal reports against 16 people charging

21 them of various -- with various crimes. This is a very long criminal

22 report which was sent to the competent prosecutor's office. After having

23 completed our investigation in Teslic, we transported them in a vehicle to

24 a prison in Banja Luka.

25 Q. Well, why were they transferred to Banja Luka rather than being

1 detained in Teslic?

2 A. This was in keeping with the law which we tried to apply to the

3 maximum extent despite the war. In Teslic, we did not have conditions in

4 place. That was one reason. And the second reason was their safety. For

5 security reasons, we transported them to the prison which was in

6 Banja Luka and which was in keeping with the law. And the third reason

7 was that we had completed all the investigative procedure that had to do

8 with the crimes that they had committed.

9 Q. In spite of the long list of crimes that the Mice committed, they

10 were released. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did you find out that they had been released?

13 A. It just so happened because one of the 16 whose name I can't

14 remember was found in a coffee bar in the evening when we were just

15 patrolling the town. One of the inspectors called me and told me:

16 "Boss, do you know that Mice had been released?" At first we couldn't

17 believe that, and then we started fearing for our safety, and we increased

18 our combat readiness to the highest level. We were afraid. We thought

19 something bad would happen, but nothing bad happened.

20 Q. Did you call Stojan Zupljanin to try to get an explanation as to

21 what had happened? Did you ever talk to him about this, the release?

22 A. I didn't do it myself. There was a -- Predrag Radulovic, who was

23 the head of the police, Predrag was very unhappy. He called Stojan and in

24 an informal conversation, we had learned that Mice had been released.

25 When we talked to Stojan, he himself was not aware of the fact that Mice

1 had been released. It was Predrag who first told him when he called him

2 from the hotel.

3 Q. Did you ever discover what Stojan's reaction was when he heard

4 that the Mice had been released?

5 A. No, I never found out about his reaction.

6 Q. Did you ever find out who was responsible for the ordering the

7 release of the Mice?

8 A. No, I never found out, but I assume and I'm still convinced that

9 it was somebody at the very top level of the government. Stojan himself

10 could not have done that. I believe it was somebody much above him,

11 somebody with a lot more influence and responsibility. Somebody at a very

12 high level.

13 Q. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Brdjanin is at the top. But do you

14 think that Mr. Brdjanin could have ordered the release of these

15 individuals?

16 A. I don't know Brdjanin personally, although I'm witnessing --

17 testifying here today. I know him from TV and from the media, but I

18 believe that he could not have had much of a say there. I don't know

19 whether he was even consulted on that matter. But in any case, I think it

20 must have been somebody at a higher level. It could not have been even at

21 Brdjanin's request because those people were from the area of Doboj. So

22 if anybody had requested or asked for that, it could only have been

23 somebody from that region, the region of Doboj.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Can I have just a minute, Your Honours.

25 Your Honour, that's all I have with this witness.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cunningham, for that exemplary

2 direct.

3 Madam Chana, do you propose to start your cross-examination now,

4 or do you want to break?

5 MS. CHANA: I would appreciate a short break, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.

7 MS. CHANA: But I could start straight away.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm trying to make life easier for you and for

9 everyone actually. If you think a short break will help you organise

10 yourself better, then I'll give you a short break.

11 MS. CHANA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So how much time do you require?

13 MS. CHANA: About 20 minutes is fine, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll have the break now.

15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer].

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.

17 Yes, we start at 12.00 actually. We start at 12.00. Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.38 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.04 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Brdjanin is back in the courtroom.

21 Madam Chana.

22 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You may start. Thank you.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Chana:

25 Q. Mr. Savic, you're an economist by profession, and you have told

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1 this Court you served in the in the security forces for 13 years. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. That would make you, Mr. Savic, an extremely educated man, and you

5 would be aware of all the political developments in the area at the time,

6 in late 1991 to 1992. Is that not correct?

7 A. It is correct.

8 Q. You would as a consequence of that also be privy to a great deal

9 of information, would you not, by virtue of your position as chief of

10 security?

11 A. It is possible, yes.

12 Q. Is it possible or is it true?

13 A. Well, it depends on the type of information that reached me

14 because in terms of hierarchy, I am the first at the municipal level. But

15 in the state, I am at the fourth or the fifth level. First there is the

16 minister, his assistants or deputies, then chiefs of CSBs, and then chiefs

17 of public security stations, and then my assistant. So regarding the

18 Municipality of Prnjavor, I had quite a lot of information.

19 Q. Yes. You were the chief of the municipality, and I'll come to the

20 hierarchy in a minute. But you were sent confidential reports, were you

21 not? You sent reports yourself? Is it true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You would have to send reports, would you not, to your superior,

24 Mr. Zupljanin?

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. You were in contact with the public at large?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As part of your duties, you would go around and talk to people?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You went to various crime scenes?

6 A. There were no crime scenes in Prnjavor.

7 Q. There were no crime scenes in Prnjavor? What do you mean by that,

8 Mr. Savic?

9 A. I mean murders and things like that. When you say "crime," what I

10 understand is murder. Murder is crime, and that's what I mean when you

11 say "crime." Crime scenes are murder scenes.

12 Q. I'm not only talking about murder scenes, Mr. Savic. I'm talking

13 about general crimes which were being committed in the municipality.

14 A. Yes, if we're talking about various aspects of criminal acts.

15 Q. Wouldn't all criminal acts be within your purview as the chief of

16 security, Mr. Savic?

17 A. Yes, yes, that is indisputable. However, there were no murders

18 while I was the chief of police in Prnjavor. We did not have any murders,

19 especially not amongst or between various ethnic groups.

20 Q. Were there people killed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In the whole time --

23 A. Not in Prnjavor. From the moment I was appointed chief to the end

24 of my career as chief of police, there were no murders.

25 Q. Would murders according to you encompass killings? So there were

1 no killings? I want to make quite sure that we are understanding each

2 other.

3 A. Yes, yes. There was none of those either as far as I know.

4 Q. And just to clarify again, what period are we talking about?

5 A. While I was the chief of police in Prnjavor and while I was in

6 charge of Prijedor -- Prnjavor Municipality because I was responsible for

7 the Municipality of Prnjavor. This is a municipality with some 50.000

8 inhabitants. And the town itself had a population of some seven and a

9 half thousand people.

10 Q. I'm not asking you about the population of your municipality. I'm

11 asking you about your statement that you just made to this Court that you

12 were never informed of one murder or one killing in the municipality the

13 entire time that you were the chief of security. Is that still a correct

14 statement?

15 A. Okay, killings, but what I had in mind were crimes between

16 different ethnic groups. For example, if a Serb killed a Muslim or a

17 Muslim killed a Croat, that is what I had in mind when you asked about

18 murders and killings.

19 Q. Mr. Savic, it will help if you listen to my question. And I'm

20 asking you just in very general terms that you would be aware of any

21 killings or murders if they were to take place in your area of

22 responsibility, which was the entire municipality, would you not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Your junior officers would bring you such reports, would they not?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

1 Q. And you were the man in charge?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now that you brought it up, I will pursue that a little bit, but

4 I'll come to it later on. How many reports of killings did you have at

5 the time?

6 A. I really don't know. I can't tell you. But I believe that there

7 must be records on that. If there were any reports, they have to be

8 recorded, and I believe that you can access those records. I really am

9 not aware of any numbers. My subordinates would inform me about any such

10 events, and this would be recorded in official records. I would also like

11 to mention that I received regular daily reports every morning, and that I

12 would forward them to my superiors. And if there was another --

13 Q. I will come to that in a minute. If you can just answer my

14 questions as we go along because I would like to ask you some general

15 questions before we get into the specifics.

16 We're back to the killings, Mr. Savic. You cannot give me even an

17 rough estimate as to how many killings were reported to you?

18 A. How many we forwarded or how many we received?

19 Q. How many you were aware of in your security station of reports

20 coming in.

21 A. Whatever happened in my police station, I knew about it. And if

22 there was a killing, I would receive a report and I would forward it. And

23 I state that in full responsibility.

24 Q. So Mr. Savic, I can take it you're not prepared to give me an

25 estimate.

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Excuse me, I'm going to object to that, Your

2 Honour. He said --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't give you an estimate,

4 no. I can't give you an estimate. The only thing I can say about any

5 murder or any other crime for that matter is that they were covered by

6 regular reports. They -- these things were reported to me.

7 MS. CHANA:

8 Q. Let me ask you about these reports. You sent these reports -- you

9 said you sent a daily report up to Mr. Zupljanin, did you not?

10 A. Yes, every morning.

11 Q. And what was the format of this report? Was it in writing? Was

12 it oral? Was it standard? Was it faxed? How did it happen?

13 A. It was both verbal and written, depending on the situation.

14 Reports were sent via dispatches every morning. And if so requested by

15 the chief of the CSB, we would expand and write information about certain

16 incidents that had happened in the territory of Prnjavor Municipality.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Savic. Did you make these reports available to

18 your Defence counsel, or do you have them?

19 A. No. I don't have them, and I did not make them available to

20 anybody. This is all available in the police station, in the archives

21 there.

22 Q. And you didn't bring or look at them to refresh your memory seeing

23 that you were coming to give evidence in this Court about these events?

24 A. Let me tell you one thing: I don't have any reports on any

25 killings because I'm almost a hundred per cent sure that there were no

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1 murders while I was the chief of police in Prnjavor. As for the regular

2 reports, they were forwarded. And if I were to bring them, I would have

3 had to bring a huge pile of daily reports. You may find it strange. I

4 can see that you're finding it very strange, but there were no murders

5 while I was the chief of police there.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What was the population of Prnjavor? What was the

7 population of Prnjavor at the time?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time about 50.000 or so.

9 47.000 according to the statistics. However, there was a lot of people

10 who arrived from Croatia, the Serbian population who arrived from Croatia,

11 and that increased the number of people to some 50.000 or so.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And given that the population of Prnjavor was

13 precisely something round about 50.000, what was the average annual number

14 of homicides in such a small town?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that there were no

16 homicides at all in 1991 and 1992.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: On an annual basis, for example if I were to ask

18 about Banja Luka, where the population is four or five times as much, you

19 would expect more homicides to take place there than in a small town like

20 Prnjavor. So were there figures for annual, average annual number of

21 homicides in Prnjavor? Not just in 1991. Before the war, how many

22 homicides in a year?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war, below one a year.

24 So it was really not a common occurrence.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go ahead now and jump to something

1 different because I intervened precisely because in a small town like

2 Prnjavor, you don't expect any homicides beyond maybe one a year maximum.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not even one a year.

4 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

5 Q. We're talking about the entire municipality now. Do you know a

6 village called Lisnja?

7 A. Yes, I do because that was a neighbouring village to my village,

8 the village where I was born.

9 Q. And it was a predominantly Muslim village, was it not?

10 A. Yes, predominantly Muslim, and there were some Ukrainians as well.

11 Q. And your area of responsibility would have included Lisnja, would

12 it not?

13 A. Yes, you're right.

14 Q. Were there any killings in Lisnja?

15 A. No. There was, but later, in 1992.

16 Q. When is later? Can you tell us the month, please.

17 A. When I say "later," that is once I stopped being the chief of

18 police. After my term of office, after the 1st of April 1992. There was

19 an armed conflict in Lisnja between the Serbian forces and others. And it

20 was not a classical homicide or murder. Three or four people died in that

21 conflict, but that was after my term of office.

22 Q. But you heard about it, so you were aware that it had happened?

23 A. Yes, I was aware of that. I heard of that subsequently. I was

24 already in Banja Luka at that time when I heard about that incident.

25 Q. You just said that there was a military operation with others.

1 Would you define what these "others" are? Do you know? Who were the

2 others? You just said in the transcript --

3 A. Organised Muslim forces that carried arms, that were reinforced,

4 that had their bunkers there and so on and so forth.

5 Q. Which was the army formation from the Serb side which was part of

6 this combat operation? Which corps?

7 A. I am not familiar with the military subordination and command. I

8 don't know who the participants were. I know that there were Veljko

9 Milankovic's paramilitaries involved, and that the police was also

10 involved, but in the part that had to do with prevention and things like

11 that. So I wouldn't know much about the incident in Lisnja. I just know

12 what I heard. But I didn't participate in that. I was not even in the

13 territory when this happened.

14 Q. But when you were in Prnjavor, which was the corps in command of

15 that particular zone, the geographical zone of responsibility? Was it not

16 the 1st Krajina Corps?

17 A. It was the area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps under

18 Commander Uzelac. I believe this was his name. General Uzelac, I believe

19 he was.

20 MS. CHANA: Give me one moment.

21 Q. And after that, it was General Talic was it not who was in command

22 of the 1st Krajina Corps.

23 Now, you said this military operation had been conducted by the

24 army, the Serb army, the police, and Veljko Milankovic paramilitary group.

25 You just said that in your transcript if I can refer you back to it.

1 A. I apologise. I said Serb forces. I can't give you any detail on

2 who exactly was there. I cannot say that for a fact.

3 Q. All right, that's fine. I'll take Serb forces. Serb forces in

4 conjunction with the police and in conjunction with the paramilitary

5 formation of Milankovic. It was a coordinated effort. Is that not

6 correct?

7 Now, can I move on to the various organs which were functions at

8 the time in the ARK region. You obviously were aware of all these

9 political organs, were you not? All the various organs in the ARK

10 municipality? There was the municipal crisis staff, and there was a

11 regional crisis staff? There was the army?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them one by one, please.

13 MS. CHANA: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you aware there was a municipal crisis staff?

15 Which municipal crisis staff are you referring to?

16 MS. CHANA: Prnjavor, the one he was working in.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware there was a Prnjavor Municipal Crisis

18 Staff?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the crisis staff was

20 established on the eve of the war. That is, the end of 1991, beginning of

21 1992. The crisis staff of Prnjavor Municipality started as the executive

22 board. The executive body of the municipal assembly. Which existed

23 according to the law and constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those

24 organs were legal.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware of the ARK Crisis Staff?

1 MS. CHANA: The regional.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The regional crisis staff?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm more familiar with the

4 autonomous region than the crisis staff. We always talked about the

5 autonomous region. I'm not familiar with the crisis staff. I -- we

6 referred to, when we spoke about those things, was the autonomous region.

7 Now, what organs existed within the autonomous region I didn't know

8 because I found it a bit odd, strange.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I hand him back to you.

10 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Judge.

11 Q. Let's backtrack here a little bit, Mr. Savic. I was asking you

12 earlier on that you were aware of information. Did you own a television?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You had a radio?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you were listening to all the developments which were taking

17 place in the Krajina region of which you were very much part of, being the

18 chief of security in one of the municipalities?

19 A. I didn't have time to listen to the radio and watch TV. But yes,

20 I did hear things that were happening.

21 Q. You told this Court earlier on in your examination-in-chief that

22 you were -- had been listening to the media, the press, the newspapers,

23 and the radio. I don't know the transcript number. But do you recall

24 telling this Court earlier on that you were aware of these things from the

25 press?

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1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I think that's a misstatement. I

2 don't think I went into the media with him, and to the extent that it goes

3 beyond the scope, I object.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't recall it either. Perhaps, Madam Chana, you

5 could refer us to which part of his -- to the precise part of his answer

6 during the direct.

7 MS. CHANA: I do have it somewhere, Your Honour, but I don't think

8 I could find it straight away. But I'll move on.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MS. CHANA: Because the witness has admitted to the fact that he

11 would listen to the --

12 Q. I would say -- Mr. Savic, it would indeed be your duty to keep

13 yourself informed of all developments, would it not, in the region?

14 A. Yes. It was my profession to be informed, so this is

15 indisputable.

16 Q. And it can be equally your duty to keep yourself abreast of all

17 the political developments, would it not?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. The part to which we referred earlier

19 on was page 49, lines 21 to 23. "I don't know Brdjanin personally,

20 although I am witnessing -- testifying here today. I know him from TV and

21 from the media."

22 MS. CHANA: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: "But I believe he could not have had much of a say

24 there." That's with regard to the Mice. That's the only part I find.

25 MS. CHANA: I'm much obliged, Your Honour, but the point being --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Also page 39, he was asked now while you were in

2 Banja Luka during April through the end of 1992, did you become aware of

3 an entity known as the ARK crisis staff? And his answer was yes, yes, I

4 know, I knew it existed. It was not a secret. It was published in the

5 media. And that's it.

6 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. So you did know about the regional ARK Crisis Staff?

8 A. Yes. Again, I'm saying that we were more familiar with the

9 autonomous region. And obviously the crisis staff would be its executive

10 body within that autonomous region.

11 Q. Mr. Savic, when did you first hear about Mr. Brdjanin?

12 A. I can't give you the exact date, but it was sometime in 1991 or

13 1992. But I can't really give you the exact date because I simply don't

14 know.

15 Q. And you also knew or know now as well that he was the president of

16 the ARK Crisis Staff?

17 A. I considered him to be the president of the autonomous region. I

18 wasn't aware of the fact that he was the president of the crisis staff

19 there.

20 Q. I'll -- there are many documents which I'm going to show you in a

21 minute, Mr. Savic, which referred to the regional ARK Crisis Staff signed

22 by Brdjanin which must have been sent to you. Would you like to tell us

23 whether you ever saw any documents coming from the ARK Crisis Staff?

24 A. No, I didn't. I was waiting for something to appear on the

25 screen. I apologise. Only in Official Gazettes that we followed, but I

1 never saw a document signed by Mr. Brdjanin, and I say that with full

2 responsibility.

3 Q. And in the Official Gazettes, of course, the ARK crisis -- the

4 regional crisis staff is on more than one occasion mentioned. Is that not

5 correct?

6 A. Of course, I saw the Official Gazettes, yes. And then of course,

7 I did see Radoslav Brdjanin's signature there beneath some conclusions or

8 something like that.

9 Q. So back to the organs -- the various organs and institutions in

10 the territory of the Krajina at the time, now, did you know

11 Mr. Nemanja Vasic?

12 A. Yes, yes, I did know him, and I still do.

13 Q. And who is he?

14 A. He is the president of the municipal assembly, or rather later on

15 the president of the Prnjavor Municipality.

16 Q. Yes. So now we have two institutions here, Mr. Savic. There's a

17 regional crisis staff, and then there's a municipal crisis staff. Is that

18 not correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct, if there's a regional, then there must also

20 be a municipal crisis staff because that's how things were organised.

21 Q. And the same went for your security service. There was the

22 Central Security Services in Banja Luka of which your superior was

23 Mr. Zupljanin?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then there was the municipal SJB of which you were the chief.

1 Right?

2 A. This is correct, yes.

3 Q. And in that mix, there was also an army. Is that not correct?

4 A. I didn't understand you properly. Where was the army?

5 Q. There was the army, the main staff under General Mladic?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And underneath him were various commanders with their cause?

8 A. Yes, of course. That's the usual way in which army's are

9 organised.

10 Q. And then there was the 1st Krajina Corps, which was operating in

11 your zone of responsibility, which was Teslic, Prnjavor, Banja Luka.

12 Right?

13 A. Teslic, I'm not a soldier. But I think that Teslic was not in the

14 area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps. I think it was in the

15 area of responsibility of the Doboj Tactical Group and the other

16 municipalities you enumerated were in the zone of responsibility of the

17 Banja Luka Corps.

18 Q. But it was the 1st Krajina Corps who was in Prnjavor, according to

19 you, and Banja Luka. Right? Yes.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, each organ that I've just mentioned, which is the regional

22 crisis staff, the municipal crisis staff, the security services, both at

23 the central level and at the municipal level, the army, the main staff,

24 and all the corps, in this region comprising of many municipalities, but I

25 only am talking to you about the ones that you are familiar with.

1 Given all these institutions, would you not agree with me then

2 there would be necessary to have a great deal of coordination amongst all

3 these different institutions and organs?

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I'm going to object. I'm going to ask her

5 to specify the time period because he was in several different

6 municipalities with different tasks.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right. I think you have to pigeon-hole

8 this in particular time.

9 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, we are talking about the time Mr. Savic

10 was the chief of security which would be in Prijedor [sic] in late 1991 --

11 to the end of 1992. Okay, he was there until April.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because he was moving from one place to the other

13 during that long period. Were you talking of the whole year?

14 MS. CHANA: Yes, April apparently -- I mean, that's the time he

15 left Prnjavor.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: He left Prnjavor.

17 MS. CHANA: Let me take it up to April first, yes.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Well, I'm going to object to the question because

19 the ARK Crisis Staff was not in existence until 5 May --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The ARK Crisis Staff was not in existence in April

21 of 1992.

22 MS. CHANA: Right. So we will take it till after April then. My

23 question is really a general one in the sense of all these --

24 Q. Once the crisis staff was formed, whether you were in Banja Luka

25 or whether you were in Prnjavor, just from your general information,

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1 Mr. Savic, would you tell me or tell the Court who coordinated the

2 activities of all these various institutions?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If he knows.

4 MS. CHANA:

5 Q. If you know, of course.

6 A. I don't know. I don't know who coordinated them.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And I am not surprised because we've had

8 something -- I don't know how many witnesses we've had in this case, but

9 no one -- I don't think there is anyone who was indeed in a position to

10 answer that question.

11 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, my question had been -- it actually

12 changed. Would he not agree with me that it would be necessary to have

13 coordination? I think that was really the question as opposed to who

14 coordinated.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Especially in a time of crisis.

16 MS. CHANA: Yes, yes, that's right.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Had there been coordination, this

18 would not have happened. I really don't know who coordinated the overall

19 situation. I was strictly oriented towards professionalism, and I knew

20 that things were bad, and I also knew that I would be held responsible if

21 I acted outside the confines of the law. I didn't get involved in

22 politics. I was not a member of any party. There were extremists on all

23 three sides, and I knew that one had to be very careful in order to

24 survive. So I was oriented only towards my job. And I really didn't know

25 who was coordinating. I think that had coordination been better, some

1 things might not have happened, and maybe we would not be here today. But

2 I really don't know who the coordinator was.

3 MS. CHANA:

4 Q. But the question really was, once again, and I only ask it this

5 one last time, it would be necessary, and you answered that it would have

6 been necessary, to have the coordination amongst all these various

7 institutions and organs, and as His Honour pointed out, especially in a

8 time of crisis.

9 A. Yes, yes, it would have been necessary. But I really don't know

10 anything about it.

11 Q. Mr. Savic, can I now ask you that were you aware of the ethnic

12 cleansing which was taking place in -- let's take first the

13 Prnjavor Municipality, of the Muslims.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Could we have a time frame, please, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Because if we're talking of Prnjavor,

16 he was there until the 1st of April. So let's stick to that first.

17 MS. CHANA:

18 Q. Okay, let's start until April 1991 [sic]. Were you aware at that

19 time that there was a policy which was going to be implemented to --

20 A. Up to April 1992, there was no ethnic cleansing in Prnjavor.

21 Q. So when did it start?

22 A. In my view, it started officially when the war started, and that

23 is in 1992. Everybody knows this, and so do I. But this did not happen

24 in Prnjavor before April. Or rather, I think it was May, June, July when

25 the problem in Lisnja happened. But there wasn't any ethnic cleansing up

1 to that time. There was tension, but there was not ethnic cleansing.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, page 67, last line, line 25,

3 that's -- the Prosecution was supposed to have asked the question "let's

4 start until April 1991." It should be April 1992, just for the record.

5 Yes, please proceed.

6 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, if you just give me one moment, please.

7 Q. Mr. Savic, can I ask you -- I'm back to the institutions again.

8 In your mind, which was the highest institution at the -- in this period

9 of time, 1991, after the war began? Either from Prnjavor or Banja Luka?

10 You were in Banja Luka after April. Which was the highest institution

11 which was directing all the activities of government? What was the

12 government?

13 A. In my view, there was a vacuum at the time. I think it was the

14 assembly, the government, the leadership of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina. That was what it was called at the time. But I wasn't

16 sufficiently familiar with all of that. I thought that it was the police

17 and the army that had to keep the security situation up to a certain

18 level. As regards the executive authorities, the municipality of the

19 autonomous region -- the assembly of the autonomous region and it was then

20 called the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I think that the

21 assembly should be the highest legislative authority. But I'm really not

22 sufficiently familiar with the situation. In my view, it was the Assembly

23 of the Serbian Autonomous Region or Republic that was the highest

24 legislative authority, in my view.

25 Q. Yes, and when this regional municipal assembly could not sit due

1 to the war, who took its place?

2 A. Well, that depended on the area, but I think it was the municipal

3 assembly. In Prnjavor, it was the assembly and its executive board. And

4 later on in 1992, the executive board was transformed into a crisis staff.

5 The crisis staff was something that existed in the legal terminology of

6 the former Yugoslavia. In war situations, the legislation provided for

7 crisis staffs to be established. There was a crisis staff in 1986 in

8 Prnjavor when there was a flood for defence against the flood.

9 In my view, the highest authority was the crisis staff as it was

10 called at the time. But as far as I can remember, Prnjavor Municipality

11 always had an executive board and the town assembly, the municipal

12 assembly. And these were the highest authorities at the time. There was

13 a 60-member assembly which had its executive board, and at one point in

14 time it was renamed the crisis staff. But all this was functioning. I am

15 referring to the Prnjavor municipality, and I assume that in other

16 municipalities the situation it was analogous.

17 Q. But quite right. So when the assembly couldn't sit, the crisis

18 staff resumed all the functions of the municipal assembly, is that not

19 correct? At the municipal level?

20 A. If the crisis staff was analogous to the executive council, then

21 of course, that's how it would be. That's provided for in the

22 legislation. If the assembly cannot sit, then it's the executive board

23 that is responsible for the functioning of certain institutions in the

24 Municipality of Prnjavor. In my view, I'm not a lawyer, but I do know

25 some things. The executive board was renamed the crisis staff because of

1 the time in which it operated and the situation in which it operated.

2 Q. So if that was true for the municipal level, it was equally true

3 the regional level, when the regional assembly could not sit, all the

4 functions were taken over by the regional assembly. Is that not correct?

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm going to object. He

6 say he doesn't know about the regional level. I'm going to object because

7 it calls for him to speculate.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if he speculates or whether he knows or

9 doesn't know. Answer the question, please. If you think your answer will

10 be just mere speculation, tell me so, and you will not answer the

11 question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only draw conclusions, but I

15 have to say that I don't know. I don't know about the regional crisis

16 staff. And to this day, I don't know who was in the regional crisis

17 staff. I assert that with if you mean responsibility. I might be able to

18 talk about Prnjavor, but not the region.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 Let's move ahead.

21 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

22 Q. Did you not ever hear Mr. Brdjanin on the TV in the media talking?

23 Did you ever hear him in the media?

24 A. I did hear Mr. Brdjanin. I know what municipality he's from. He

25 was on television. But mostly, I heard him mostly as a minister in the

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1 government of Republika Srpska in the post-war period. I think he was the

2 minister of building construction or whatever it was called. But I think

3 he was qualified to be the minister because that was his profession. But

4 to tell you the truth, I didn't really pay that much attention to

5 political events because at the very outset, I was opposed to many things

6 that were happening in politics, and I felt I shouldn't have much to do

7 with that because as you know, I was not a member of the SDS. I was in

8 the opposition in a way. I was different from Mr. Brdjanin. And the

9 prevailing situation. And I knew Brdjanin mostly from television and from

10 his speeches in -- the speeches he made as a minister before the assembly.

11 As for the prewar events, the wartime events, I didn't know much

12 about that as far as he's concerned.

13 Q. When you heard Mr. Brdjanin making speeches, what did you hear him

14 say?

15 A. I really can't remember now. There were so many speeches, so many

16 statements were made by Alija, Karadzic, and others. And I really cannot

17 remember those quotations.

18 Q. I'm not asking for exact quotations, Mr. Savic. If you could just

19 assist the Court in telling them some aspects, what kind of things would

20 he talk about? For example, would he ever talk anything about the

21 Muslims?

22 A. What I remember is that he engaged in exclusively professional

23 discussions about the problems of his ministry. Everything that people

24 said during the war sounded the same to me. Alija said he would sacrifice

25 peace for Bosnia. He said: "Go to Serbia. This is Bosnia." Things like

1 that.

2 Q. I'm asking about Mr. Brdjanin's utterances; not Mr. Izetbegovic --

3 Alija's. What was he saying about the Muslims?

4 A. I can't remember. I can't remember that. So many statements were

5 made that you could compile a book. I'm not referring just to

6 Mr. Brdjanin, but all the politicians at the time. They were trying to

7 outdo each other in what they would say and the people simply grew

8 accustomed to that and stopped paying attention.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Try to limit, Mr. Savic, your answers to yes, no,

10 where possible, and please try not to repeat yourself. You've already

11 told us this three times. I know that you have been asked the question

12 more than once, but try to limit your answers to what is just essential.

13 That's all.

14 MS. CHANA: I'd like to show the witness a document, P227,

15 Your Honour.

16 Q. The document is before you, Mr. Savic? Can you see it's a

17 decision on the formation --

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. It's a decision on the formation of the Crisis Staff of the

20 Autonomous Region of Krajina.

21 A. Krajina.

22 Q. It's page 2. I'm not sure -- page 2. The list.

23 A. Decision. That's not it.

24 Q. I'm referring you to where there are a list of names. It's a

25 decision. Are you with me, Mr. Savic?

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. On the formation of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of

3 Krajina. And it's signed by the president of the executive council,

4 Nikola Erceg.

5 A. Yes, Nikola Erceg, yes.

6 Q. Have you ever seen this before?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So let's look at it together. Now, it gives us a list of who

9 belonged to the crisis staff.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And on the top you have Mr. Brdjanin as the president. Then you

12 have Stojan Zupljanin. Do you see that in number 10?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Zupljanin was a member of the crisis

15 staff?

16 A. No. I really wasn't aware of it.

17 Q. All right. I will now show you Document 202. I think the Defence

18 have already shown it to you, but I would like to have it placed on the

19 ELMO again, please.

20 A. Yes, I've seen this.

21 Q. Yes, by Defence counsel.

22 Now, you've just found out that Mr. Zupljanin was a member of the

23 ARK Regional Crisis Staff. Perhaps this document will be looked at with

24 fresher eyes. If you look at the beginning of this particular document --

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. -- It talks about a meeting held on the 6th of May 1992.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it talks about who was present at this meeting. And then it

4 says: "The chiefs of various municipalities" and Prnjavor is there.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you attended this meeting, did you not?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Finished on the 1st of April, no?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 MS. CHANA: Sorry, Your Honour. 6th of May.

10 Q. If I can take you to the portion the Defence counsel took you to,

11 number 23.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where it says that "in all our activities, we're obliged to

14 observe all measures and apply all procedures ordered by the Crisis Staff

15 of the Autonomous Region." Are you saying that while you were there in

16 April, that was not the directive, but after you left that was the

17 directive which was given?

18 A. No. There was even a directive that was dispatched which was

19 quite contrary to this, where the ministry orders all subordinate officers

20 to act in accordance with the orders of the minister. There is a dispatch

21 to this effect. And had I known I would be asked about this, I could have

22 found it.

23 Q. You don't have the dispatch here, do you?

24 A. No. No, I don't. I don't. But there was one. I'm sure there

25 was. And this is contrary to what was in the dispatch. I think in my

1 personal view the chief of the centre wanted to let us know that we had to

2 be responsible in our actions. And even after this came out, we worked

3 only under orders from the minister and the chief of the centre. And I

4 know that the Autonomous Region of Krajina was never even mentioned. We

5 worked according to the instructions, regulations, and internal documents

6 of the Ministry of the Interior. Why this was there, I think it was

7 simply to let policemen know they had to be disciplined.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Savic, which came first? The dispatch or

9 this document that you have in front of you now?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The dispatch was in 1991. It

11 arrived in mid-June 1991. And it said that the police had to operate

12 exclusively according to instructions from the ministry and not

13 individuals from municipal governments. That was the gist of the

14 dispatch.

15 So not the local presidents and so on. There were attempts made

16 in my case, too, but Vasic was not able to impose on me his views. This

17 was the dispatch of 1991.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And in May 1992, where were you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In May 1992, I was in Banja Luka, in

20 Banja Luka, in the crime investigation police.

21 MS. CHANA:

22 Q. So this particular decision supersedes that directive of yours

23 because that was in 1991, and these are new instructions. Is that not

24 correct? This one is dated 20th of May 1992.

25 A. No, no, the police continued observing these instructions. This

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1 is not a new instruction.

2 Q. Mr. Savic, this instruction -- your instruction you just told His

3 Honour is in 1991. Is that not correct? If you would just answer the

4 question, please.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This instruction is on 20th May 1992. Is that not correct? So

7 these would be --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- Instructions is it not, because the crisis staff is now

10 formed, is it not? At the time of your dispatch, the crisis staff was not

11 formed, was it?

12 A. Yes, there were executive boards, executive committees. However,

13 this instruction --

14 Q. Mr. Savic, the crisis staff assumed all responsibilities of any

15 other body, is it not, after 5th of May -- after it was established?

16 A. That's what it says here. However, in full responsibility, I

17 claim, as a policeman, that the police continued acting according to the

18 legal enactments that were in force in 1991 because it is simply

19 impossible to replace internally enactments by something that comes from

20 outside. The police continued observing the enactments which dated from

21 1986. So whatever it says here did not have any bearing on the work of

22 the police. And I claim that with full responsibility.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We have covered this sufficiently now.

24 MS. CHANA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think we ought to go to something different.

1 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

2 I would like to refer the witness to his own statement that we

3 were given yesterday by the Defence counsel. Could he look at his own

4 statement.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a problem, Mr. Ackerman?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I was just -- we had a rule, Your Honour, that if

7 things are given to you they should also be given to us. And I just

8 noticed that a whole bunch of stuff was just given to you, but it may have

9 nothing to do with this case.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: These are the documents that the Prosecution

11 indicates --

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. All right.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- because they didn't have time. Our secretary has

14 only managed to compile them now.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: No problem.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed.

17 MS. CHANA:

18 Q. Have you got the statement?

19 A. Yes, this is my first statement.

20 Q. Now, on the -- I can't tell you what paragraph it is, but it's

21 towards the bottom of the page where it says: "This kind of action..."

22 Can you find a sentence beginning: "This kind of action..."

23 A. Yes, yes. Are you referring to the sentence beginning with:

24 "This operation by the CSB Banja Luka was carried out" --

25 Q. Yes, I'll just read it out. And it says, and you can follow it on

1 your paper: "This kind of action was conducted by the SJB Banja Luka

2 whenever the municipal war presidencies asked..." Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which municipal war presidency are we talking about?

5 A. The municipal war presidency is a general term. There were

6 several terms. The crisis staff, presidency, executive board. So these

7 terms just replaced one another. The municipal war presidency is what I

8 was going to say. There were several terms.

9 Q. The other term for it is the municipal crisis staff.

10 A. Very well, then. If that's what you think, then be it. The war

11 presidency were members of the executive board of the municipality, and

12 this was the executive board appointed by the municipal assembly at one of

13 its sessions. Those were the municipal officials, the chiefs of various

14 departments and so on and so forth.

15 Q. So you did take orders from the crisis staff, did you not? I

16 mean, it says so in your statement.

17 A. Well, it's only logical. President of municipality could ask me

18 to do anything that was in keeping with the law. He could have asked me

19 to do things that were not in keeping with the law, but I would have

20 refused. Even if nobody had ordered me to do this, I would have done in

21 Teslic what I did without the municipal leadership. This is my signature.

22 I'm a professional. So I would have done this even if I hadn't been

23 ordered to do that by municipal bodies. Even Mr. Brdjanin would not have

24 been able to order me that because I would not have been -- I would not

25 have wanted to go there.

1 Crisis staff, war presidency, I was a policeman. And it made no

2 difference to me. What made a difference was that I had to go and do my

3 job. And I would have done it even without Brdjanin, without Zupljanin,

4 without anybody. I would have dismantled these collection centres, I

5 would have reinstated law and order. I would have brought the police to

6 keep law and order --

7 Q. Mr. Savic, I think the Judge has pointed out to you. If you would

8 just please try to answer the question, we can go quicker. I appreciate

9 all this knowledge that you wish to bring forward, but nevertheless.

10 So you did take orders from different institutions, and one of the

11 orders you said was --

12 A. No, no. This operation by the CSB, not the police station, I did

13 not receive instructions from anybody but Stojan Zupljanin who was my

14 superior, my chief of CSB.

15 Q. So you would take orders from your superior, Mr. Zupljanin, would

16 you not?

17 A. Yes, I would. Yes. I never received instructions from anybody

18 else. There may have been some requests in accordance with the law. And

19 here I worked exclusively on the orders of Stojan Zupljanin. And I

20 remember a situation when I came to his office and when he dictated to all

21 of us and ordered us to go to Teslic and deal with the situation there.

22 Q. Now, when the crisis staff gave orders to the police, the CSB,

23 which is the central, passed it down to the local SJBs, did it not? There

24 were orders --

25 A. No, I can't say anything to that effect. I don't know anything

1 about the relationship between politics and the CSB. I was not up to

2 speed with that. I don't even know whether there are any documents on

3 that. I really don't know.

4 Q. I'd like to show you P195, if I may.

5 This is -- have you got the document? Sorry.

6 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, before I actually come to this document,

7 there was one other question I would like to ask on the witness statement

8 where he says --

9 Q. Where you say, Mr. Savic, that this is your first witness

10 statement. How many statements did you make?

11 A. That was my first official statement. I have given a few, not

12 paying too much attention to the terms I used. But in any case, this is a

13 truthful statement. I am not a legal professional. And to my mind what

14 matters is that the essence is here.

15 Q. Mr. Savic, the question is really quite a simple one. How many

16 statements have you made altogether, official or unofficial?

17 A. There were many unofficial statements. But this is the first

18 official one signed by me on this case. I made some official notes as a

19 policeman. I don't know whether you're counting that, too, or when I

20 informed my superiors about the events. But in any case, the only

21 statement that I ever gave on this case is this one here, my first

22 official statement on this case.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it your first and only, or is it just your first?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My first statement, excluding the

25 official circular letters when I was reporting on the developments --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You are a policeman. We're talking of a statement

2 being a document containing questions and answers that you gave to the

3 Defence which we had a copy of.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my first one.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Was there a second one?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there wasn't.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So it was the first and only?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first and only signed by me in a

9 conversation with the Defence team.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's move.

11 MS. CHANA: Right.

12 Q. I was showing you, Mr. Savic, P195. It's signed by Mr. Zupljanin,

13 the chief of the centre. And it's to all the chiefs, all the public

14 security stations, et cetera. It's dated 25th May 1992.

15 And in it, this is your chief saying, and I quote: "In keeping

16 with the decision of the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina regarding

17 the surrender of illegally owned weapons and ammunition..."

18 A. Yes, ammunition, yes.

19 Q. Yes. The line being: "In keeping with the Autonomous Region of

20 Bosnian Krajina."

21 A. Excuse me, what was the question?

22 Q. This was in relation to a decision, was it not, from the crisis

23 staff?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And you were then asked to do various things, was it not?

1 A. 14 May 1992. I was not asked directly, because I was a policeman,

2 a simple policeman at that time. But if you will, to my mind, this is --

3 does not represent anything bad. What they're asking is for us to take

4 certain measures. I have not gone through the entire text, but they asked

5 us to do the ordinary police job. This is all in keeping with the law.

6 There's no problem here. I can't read all of this, but in any case, I

7 believe that everything it says here is in keeping with the law.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Savic, you haven't taken my advice, and you keep

9 ignoring it. Just answer the question, the whole question, and nothing

10 but the question.

11 MS. CHANA: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You keep telling us many other things that we are

13 not interested, or at least I am not interested in hearing.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I apologise.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Because like this, you're going to be here the

16 entire week.

17 MS. CHANA:

18 Q. Mr. Savic, did you actually put this -- this plan, the concrete

19 plans for the seizure of illegally owned weapons, ammunitions, and

20 explosive, this plan that you have been talking about and you have been

21 ordered to do so by your boss, in accordance with the decisions of the

22 autonomous region, did you put it into effect, these orders that you were

23 given?

24 A. I couldn't because I never received these orders. I personally

25 never received these orders.

1 Q. But the police who did receive them would have put them into

2 effect. Do you know that?

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object, Your Honour. That calls for

4 speculation on his part.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection sustained.

6 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, with respect, if I could -- he has been

7 talking about the police and the orders. And I think it's not really

8 speculation as to when such an order -- can I rephrase that question and

9 ask the witness --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. Of course.

11 MS. CHANA:

12 Q. When such an order would have come, had you received it, you would

13 have followed it, would you not? You just said to the Court, there's

14 nothing bad there's nothing wrong in it. And such an order you would have

15 followed it. It's from your boss, Mr. Zupljanin isn't it? Had you been

16 in receipt of it, would you have followed it?

17 A. I would have implemented anything that was in accordance with the

18 law.

19 Q. When you say "in accordance with the law," Mr. Savic, would you

20 take every order and research the law and decide for yourself that it's in

21 accordance with the law? What do you mean by that? How would you decide

22 what's in accordance with the law?

23 A. I was familiar with many things. If somebody says "seize illegal

24 weapons," that is in accordance with the law. All of these items I am

25 familiar with, and I know that they are in accordance with the law. Give

1 me anything, and I will even quote the provision of the law that this is

2 from. For example, an illegal possession of weapons is against a certain

3 provision of the law.

4 Q. I'd like to show you another document, P294, please.

5 This is dated 31st July. It's again from the chief of the centre,

6 your boss. And it's addressed to all SJB public security stations.

7 And -- it says: "Recently through the mediation of the Red Cross..."

8 Have you got that, starting that paragraph?

9 A. "Recently".

10 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is reading.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're referring to the

12 beginning of this document.

13 MS. CHANA:

14 Q. Yes, absolutely, beginning of the document where it says that the

15 Muslims have begun to depart from the Autonomous Region of Krajina to

16 Croatia, Slovenia, and other Western European countries. And since we

17 have learned that these persons are removing large sums of foreign

18 currency from the AR Krajina, with the aim of standardising procedures in

19 the inspection of convoys, we hereby issue the following instruction. And

20 the instruction is, and it starts off with: At the meeting of the Crisis

21 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina held on June 1992, a decision

22 was made, Section 3 of which stipulates as follows: Individuals leaving

23 the Autonomous Region of Krajina may not take with them a maximum of 300

24 deutschemarks or a corresponding amount of other currency.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You said "may not." It says "may."

1 MS. CHANA: Maximum of. Sorry, Your Honour.

2 Q. Which means they can only take 300 deutschemarks as they leave the

3 territory.

4 Now, Mr. Savic, you'll agree with me that this order is passed on

5 by your boss, and this was a decision made -- have you seen this document

6 before, Mr. Savic?

7 A. No, I haven't.

8 Q. Would you still then hold your position that the crisis staff were

9 not giving orders -- I'm sorry, if I can take that back. That the orders

10 did pass down to Mr. Zupljanin who passed them down to you and which were,

11 in fact, implemented?

12 Since you haven't seen this document before, but now it's here,

13 would you like to reconsider what you have told the Court earlier about

14 the instructions?

15 A. I adhere to my former statement. If I had been the chief of the

16 police, I would not have implemented this because this is not in keeping

17 with the law. Now, what was going on, I don't know. In any case, I never

18 had a similar document in my hands before.

19 Q. But this is given by the chief of the centre following a decision

20 from the ARK Crisis Staff, is it not?

21 A. That's what it says here. It's indisputable. That's what it

22 says. And I don't know how they maintained coordination amongst

23 themselves. Who ordered whom to do things? If I had been the chief of

24 police in Prnjavor at the time, I would not have implemented this order,

25 and that is precisely the reason for which I was replaced. Because this

1 is an example of something that is against the law.

2 Q. Mr. Savic, if I could just interject here again, this is sent to

3 all the SJBs, all the security centres, is it not? So every single

4 security centre is supposed to conform to this decision by the autonomous

5 region, the ARK Crisis Staff. And you said that you yourself would not

6 have followed it. Are there any other decisions that you did not follow?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: This is misleading now, Ms. Chana, because you have

8 been referring this set of questions to the witness as if he was still

9 responsible at the time of the SJB in Prnjavor, while we're talking of a

10 time frame when he was just a mere simple policeman in Banja Luka, who had

11 only one responsibility, to carry out the orders that his superior in

12 Banja Luka would direct him to or would give him.

13 MS. CHANA: Yes.

14 JUDGE JANU: And he said he was replaced because --

15 MS. CHANA: No, I appreciate that. But I was basically drawing

16 the witness's attention to this document purely on the aspect of the

17 decision by the ARK Crisis Staff.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If you're going to ask him about other orders, he

19 doesn't even know about the existence of this one. And I'm not surprised

20 because he is not supposed to know. This wasn't directed to the

21 individual members of each --

22 MS. CHANA: No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- SJB, municipal SJB. It was directed to whoever

24 commanded those municipal SJBs.

25 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I think I've mixed up two subjects

1 very fast. What I would like to ask the witness is

2 Q. Did he ever have an occasion to not follow an order of Mr.

3 Zupljanin, when he was the chief in Prnjavor up to April 1992.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to answer this?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I didn't understand the

7 question. I thought this was another comment.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll phrase the question myself. Until you were

9 commander of the Prnjavor police station, was there any instruction or

10 order that you had received from Zupljanin, Stojan Zupljanin, that you

11 decided not to obey, not to carry out?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there weren't any. Well, let me

13 be very short and up to the point. There weren't any.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Next question.

15 MS. CHANA: I want to show you P272.

16 I'm sorry, Your Honour, I seem to have misplaced one exhibit.

17 Here it is. No, I've found it.

18 Q. This is again another document --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: 272.

20 MS. CHANA: Yes, P272, yes.

21 Q. Another decision similar to the last one. It is -- 1st July 1992.

22 You were not the SJB at the time, but nevertheless -- you obviously would

23 not have seen this document before either?

24 A. No. I'm reading it for the first time.

25 Q. It's again a decision which has been disseminated by your boss

1 Zupljanin, a decision made by the crisis -- the regional crisis staff in

2 the ARK, the ARK Crisis Staff. So would you agree with me, Mr. Savic,

3 that Mr. Zupljanin was, after looking at the couple of documents that I've

4 shown you, was following the directions of the ARK, or at least giving the

5 directions to his juniors on decisions reached by the ARK Crisis Staff?

6 These are all documents signed by your boss.

7 A. I can't see his signature here, but it -- the answer to your

8 question arises from this, and the answer is yes. But I would like to

9 clarify one thing if I may. If I don't have to, I won't. But I'd like

10 to.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's your answer. It's enough.

12 MS. CHANA: That's all right.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Savic?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I'm going to object to that because

16 the clarification may explain his answer in more detail and I think he's

17 abiding by the Court's directive as best as he can and I'd ask that he be

18 allowed to give his clarification.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's see what the clarification is all

20 about.

21 Mr. Savic, what do you want to clarify?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be very brief.

23 Stojan Zupljanin forwarded this to all the municipalities to inform them.

24 So CSB had a system in place to inform municipal leaderships. So if the

25 Autonomous Region of Krajina sent it to him, he was supposed to forward it

1 to all the municipalities by way of dispatches because the dispatch

2 system, the centre of the dispatch system, was with the CSB.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

4 Yes, Madam Chana.

5 MS. CHANA: Yes, I would now like to show the witness P2608, which

6 is the Gazette of the Prnjavor Municipality.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, could I just ask what schedule we're

8 on now as far as breaks? We started at noon, just for planning purposes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We have only got another 15 minutes left, less than

10 15 minutes. We go until quarter to 2.00, unless there is a need to stop

11 for a couple of minutes to change the tapes. But I don't think so. So --

12 we will finish at quarter to 2.00 as per scheduled.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

15 MS. CHANA: We're looking at the --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there an English translation of it, Ms. Gustin?

17 MS. CHANA: Yes, I have it here. English, I only have one.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Are you going to translate it

19 for us?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: No, I'm going to try to find it. If I had an ERN

21 number --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I can give you the ERN number of the B/C/S version,

23 and that is 02949289. That's where it starts. But I have the B/C/S

24 version, too. You know, I mean... It's quite a lengthy.

25 MS. CHANA: I've got the English version. I can put it on the

1 ELMO if Your Honours wish.

2 Q. All right. Have you ever seen this Gazette before, Mr. Savic?

3 A. No. This was in 1992. No, I haven't seen it before.

4 Q. This is many decisions, and these are decisions of the municipal

5 crisis staff signed by the president of the crisis staff, Nemanja Vasic,

6 whom you said that you knew. I take you to page 2.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where it says that the decision -- this is in Roman numeral 4.

9 Basically, the decision is made by the crisis staff, and then asks the SJB

10 to be responsible for its implementation. Do you see that? There are

11 several decisions. That's the first one.

12 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, is there any way we can see this on

13 the ELMO, please?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so. Are you reading from the English

15 translation?

16 MS. CHANA: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we borrow it for a while, Madam Chana, and put

18 it on the ELMO, please.

19 MS. CHANA: It has got all my markings on it, but you're welcome.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what we are seeing here is the decision takes

21 effect on the day of its adoption. The Prnjavor SJB shall be responsible

22 for its implementation. Signed by Nemanja Vasic on the 15th of May.

23 MS. CHANA: Yes. There's a whole lot. The witness does have in

24 his language most of that document. But my point was, or my question was

25 going to be on that particular portion --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I still don't get the question.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, is the English translation in evidence? Is

3 there an exhibit that's in English?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman --

5 MS. CHANA: P2608.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I have here, and usually my secretary doesn't

7 make mistakes, I have the B/C/S version of this.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all we have, too, as P2608. I don't know

9 that there's an English version of it in evidence.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So my suspicion is, also because here I have 2608

11 marked twice, my suspicion is that this was exhibited in the original

12 language, and maybe only one or two pages translated into English were

13 made use of. That's my suspicion.

14 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, it was disclosed, the English, to the

15 Defence on 28th August. So we need --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The whole -- the entire document?

17 MS. CHANA: Yes the entire document. Because the B/C/S was

18 already out, the English. And we need to now make copies.

19 I think it's important because they encompass all the crisis staff

20 decisions of the Prnjavor Municipality.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, the English version apparently has not made

22 it into evidence in this case. And I know that the record showed it was

23 disclosed on the 28th. But I don't think it was. I think I'd have it.

24 It's not the first time it's happened that the record shows something has

25 been disclosed when it hasn't been. Because sometimes it's just left out

1 of a stack of documents.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: It's also not the first time he says he's missing

3 something when he's got it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems at least on the face of it that you have it

5 the ones who have a right to complain is us three up here. But the whole

6 point is this, because I need to have this clear in my mind.

7 It still doesn't explain -- or rather, it explains that we don't

8 have the English.

9 It's a little bit beyond me at this point in time. The witness

10 finished from Prnjavor for all intents and purposes on the 1st of April of

11 1992. Now, we have a Government Gazette or -- I call it

12 Government Gazette which is dated August of 1992 which goes back to

13 decisions that were taken after that he had left. And I think on the face

14 of the document itself, there is enough to show that the president of the

15 crisis staff of Prnjavor is implementing, or the crisis staff itself is

16 implementing several decisions that may or may not have had their origin

17 in the ARK Crisis Staff.

18 But why are you seeking to prove this through this witness?

19 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. There are a whole lot of decisions

20 that do go back to various dates and have been within the time frame --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But why by means of this witness when he wasn't

22 there?

23 MS. CHANA: Because the SJB was directed to do some of the things.

24 There are some decisions in his time.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: In his time, the ARK Crisis Staff didn't even exist.

1 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I take your point, Your Honour. In

2 that respect, and I think perhaps this document will not be of such great

3 value. And I think I will not refer the witness to it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I am going to suggest that we stop here. We

5 have got 5 minutes. We stop here. I suggest that you reorganise a little

6 bit the documentation that you have, keeping in mind that the witness can

7 only answer questions with regard to his position of authority up until

8 1st of April of 1992. After that, there may be things that he may have

9 come to know.

10 MS. CHANA: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But why should it be this particular witness to

12 prove these things? I don't know. Because to me, he's more or less of a

13 neutral witness. He has testified what he could. And the period when he

14 was in command in Prnjavor, there was only a crisis staff there, but no

15 crisis staff in the ARK.

16 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. Tomorrow I will just finish up with

17 the witness by talking to him about the paramilitary organisations.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I need to explain also, I don't find objection if

19 you ask him, for example, look at this dispatch of Zupljanin to the

20 various SJBs dated June, July, August, September, does it appear to you on

21 the face of this document that Mr. Zupljanin is trying to implement

22 decisions of the crisis staff? I will not stop you there because those

23 are, of course, decisions that are perfectly legitimate, and he having

24 served as a position of command in the force is in a position to state

25 whether that is an instruction or whether it's just onforwarding of

1 information. That I will allow. But beyond that, I think we are wasting

2 our time.

3 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I stand guided by you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So -- yes. Yes, I think I would rather ask

5 the question tomorrow after she has gone through the documents again. But

6 I suppose today, if we hadn't stopped here, how much longer do you --

7 MS. CHANA: I would have covered three more topics, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So you have the other witness in line tomorrow,

9 Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour, he won't be ready until Wednesday.

11 He doesn't arrive until tomorrow. He's not here until tomorrow at 2.00.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just asking. So we'll finish with this witness

13 tomorrow. Tomorrow you should be in a position to go back home, unless

14 you like The Hague.

15 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: One administrative matter, I'm sure it was just a

17 mistake, I'm not suggesting any bad faith, but the statement of this

18 witness - I don't think it matters if the witness is here - they have had

19 it 11 months and 11 days. We get it Sunday afternoon before he testifies

20 when apparently the name turns up because they're looking through the

21 database and they find ,"Oh, we've got a statement." So just for the

22 future witnesses, I'd ask that they do a full search for all of their

23 witnesses because this has about twice the length and information as the

24 summary we got, and it's better if we don't get them less than 24 hours

25 before the testimony.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I totally agree with Mr. Nicholls. He's

3 absolutely, totally 100 per cent right. And I was very distressed today

4 when I found out that we hadn't found this before. And that will not

5 happen again.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. I think that's important,

7 especially in the light of the problem we had last week and the

8 cooperation shown by Ms. Korner in finding a practical approach. I thank

9 you all. We'll meet again tomorrow, 9.00, I think in this same courtroom

10 if I remember well. Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.

12 To be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

13 November, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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