Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22461

1 Tuesday, 11 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Everyone, welcome.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus

9 Radoslav Brdjanin.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.

11 Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you follow in a language

12 that you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I

14 can.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good morning to you.

16 Appearances, Prosecution.

17 MS. CHANA: May it please Your Honours, Ms. Sureta Chana,

18 Julian Nicholls, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good morning to you.

20 MS. CHANA: Good morning to you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Radoslav Brdjanin.

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: David Cunningham and Aleksandar Vujic.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you, too.

24 Any preliminaries before we proceed? No?

25 MS. CHANA: We do have the English version of the --

Page 22462

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The 608?

2 MS. CHANA: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. Perhaps that can be

4 distributed later. In the meantime, let's bring in the witness, please.

5 I take it that today -- how long do you anticipate --

6 MS. CHANA: I will be finished before the first break.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Which basically means that we adjourn?

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It means we have no objection to adjourning.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it-- we reserve all opposition, Mr. Cunningham.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Mr. Ackerman is preparing for the next witness

11 who we're going to proof this afternoon and we'll be ready to go in the

12 morning.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness will be here for how long do you

14 expect?

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Two days maximum.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Two days.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think it might be comparable to this witness in

18 terms of his direct examination. I think it might be a bit longer because

19 he comes from Kljuc.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And who is going to cross-examine him?

21 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not sure, Your Honour, at this point. Probably

22 Ms. Korner.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

24 So yes, usher, please.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 22463

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is 2608 if I remember the number well. No?

2 MS. CHANA: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Savic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome again once more. You don't need to

6 repeat the solemn declaration. I just want to remind you that you are

7 testifying under an oath, the solemn declaration that you made -- you

8 entered yesterday. So take a seat, and let's get started so that you

9 leave this place the earlier -- the sooner the better.

10 Yes, Madam Chana.

11 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Chana: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, Witness.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Today I want to ask you some questions about the paramilitary

18 formations. Yesterday, you told this Court -- the transcript, Your

19 Honours, is at page 25. And this was when you were shown the document

20 P400. And that is the Main Staff report about the problems the

21 paramilitaries were causing in the Prnjavor Municipality.

22 A. Prnjavor.

23 Q. Prnjavor, yes. Thank you for that.

24 And you said that Veljko Milankovic, they caused problems. I'm

25 reading from the transcript?

Page 22464

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. They caused problems, not only in Prnjavor, but also in the

3 general region of Prnjavor. And that resulted in some problems. And you

4 went on to say: I wanted him disarmed and placed under the command of the

5 Yugoslav People's Army. That's correct, isn't it?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. If you look -- if I can show the witness P400 again, please.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I've got a copy of P400 right here in Serbian.


10 Q. I want to take you to page 2 of that report. And it starts off

11 with "Many formations of this type..." Have you found that particular

12 line, Mr. Savic?

13 A. Page 2?

14 Q. Yes, page 2.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, could...

16 MS. CHANA: Perhaps it's on the first page of the B/C/S. It's

17 this one. Yes, it's just that English typing is larger than the B/C/S,

18 Your Honours.

19 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]


21 Q. It would be the fourth point where it talks about the

22 characteristics of the paramilitary group. Have you got -- it's the

23 fourth point.

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. CHANA: Oh, sorry.

Page 22465

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I apologise, Ms. Chana.

2 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.



5 Q. Have you found the place, Mr. Savic? "Many formations of this

6 type..."

7 A. Yes, it's on page 1.

8 Q. Yes. Now, if I can read it to you, the Main Staff report says

9 that: "Many formations of this type displayed hatred of the non-Serbian

10 peoples and one can conclude without reservation that they are the

11 genocidal element among the Serbian people."

12 A. Yes, that's what I'm reading here.

13 Q. Mr. Savic, did you think it was a good idea to have these

14 genocidal elements included into the army?

15 A. I didn't understand your question. Is it a good idea to do what?

16 Q. Because you had said in your transcript yesterday that you wanted

17 these paramilitary formations disbanded or put under the control of the

18 JNA.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, Veljko Milankovic, who was the commander of the Wolves of

21 Vucak, that's right, is it?

22 A. Yes, yes. I thought you were making a comment. But he was the

23 commander of that paramilitary group in Prnjavor.

24 Q. And he was involved in the takeover of the Kozara mountain in

25 August 1992, the transmitter. Were you aware of that?

Page 22466

1 A. Yes, I was. I had that information.

2 Q. And as of 5th June, I know you were not there at the time, were

3 you aware that he was put under the command of the 1KK?

4 A. I didn't see that document, but I did have some information to

5 that effect.

6 Q. Well, I'll show you P1802, P1802.

7 MS. CHANA: I have the B/C/S if I can assist the usher.

8 Q. This is from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps signed by

9 General Talic, is it not? And if you look at point 2 --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- Would you agree -- you would now agree that he was appointed

12 the commander of the 327th Motorised Brigade?

13 A. That's what it says in the document. He was appointed as

14 battalion commander of the 327th Motorised Brigade.

15 Q. I would now like to show you P1803 and ask you: Were you aware

16 that he was actually given a decoration, a posthumous decoration for his

17 service to the army?

18 A. Yes, I had that information.

19 Q. And this document at point 5 reflects that, does it not?

20 A. It does indeed.

21 MS. CHANA: I would like to show the witness, it's not a tendered

22 document, ERN 03081715 to 1732. It's from Glas, Your Honours. Open

23 sources.

24 Yes, this can be given P2707, Your Honours.

25 Q. Have you ever seen this before?

Page 22467

1 A. No, I haven't. I'm reading this for the first time.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Chana, if you're going to ask him questions

3 based on any part of this, then we need to give him time to read it.

4 MS. CHANA: Yes, he can.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Savic, take your time, please. Go through the

6 article. If he has never seen it before, I think he needs to read it.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't read too well without my

8 glasses, but I think I have got the gist of the article. So you may

9 proceed asking me questions, Madam Prosecutor.


11 Q. This is an interview of Mr. Milankovic, is it not? It's reporting

12 on an interview?

13 Can I point you to the -- I don't know what page it would be for

14 you, where he says, and I quote: "We were the victims of a political

15 game."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then the next paragraph, and I'll read that out, says:

18 "Although it's not time for disputes among the Serbs, I must say

19 something. We were a unit of the Autonomous Region of the Bosnian

20 Krajina. The president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of the

21 Bosnian Krajina, Vojo Kupresanin, and the Prime Minister,

22 Andjelko Grahovac, as well as the members of that government, and the

23 leadership of the Banja Luka SDS were fully informed about all our

24 operations. Actually, we took part in operations at the order of the

25 leadership of the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina."

Page 22468

1 Would you agree that that was the case? Would you agree with the

2 sentiments expressed by Milankovic when he says this?

3 A. Knowing Milankovic as a criminal before the war, I wouldn't

4 believe his words because he was a liar, to put it that way. Who was his

5 commander, how things were arranged, it is very hard to say. He was

6 pretty much his own agent. He organised plundering. His unit consisted

7 of well-known criminals. So I would not be able to confirm this statement

8 of his. He used to brag a lot also.

9 Q. From your own knowledge of the events in the region, would you say

10 that there's any truth in this?

11 A. At the beginning, there is some truth, but let me point you to the

12 first passage. The MUP units of BH disarmed him. They were on paper

13 members of the MUP, but Delimustafic never sent any forces to capture him.

14 Those forces were organised from Prnjavor and Banja Luka. At the

15 beginning when it says walk on Serbian thorns, it's a lie, a notorious

16 lie. So this statement is nothing but him bragging about being

17 subordinated to somebody. Very often, he would issue false statements for

18 the press. So when you look at the first passage from the first word to

19 the last, it's all lies.

20 Q. Now, he was court-martialed, he was tried in a court-martial

21 court, was he not? Do you know about that?

22 A. No, I don't know anything about that. There was no court-martial.

23 It didn't exist. He was tried several times before the war. And during

24 the war, several criminal reports were filed against him.

25 Q. Now in the last -- I don't know what page it is, it's 6 in the

Page 22469

1 English page. "From the ruling of the military court in Banja Luka."

2 This is where the ruling says that Milankovic would not be

3 criminally prosecuted for the above-mentioned crimes because there were no

4 justified grounds to suspect the accused Milankovic committed these or

5 other crimes for which he is charged ex officio.

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. This is from the investigating judge, Lieutenant-Colonel Vujanovic

8 [phoen]? So he was released, was he not? And continued --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- combat operations? Do you know, are you aware that he that

11 his unit --

12 A. Yes, the war started in 1992. He continued with combat

13 operations, and his unit grew into a bigger unit of the 1st Krajina Corps.

14 Q. Now, when you arrested him, you found a large number of weapons

15 and other items, did you not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What happened to them? Do you know?

18 A. Are you referring to the weapons?

19 Q. Yes, the weapons that you found --

20 A. Yes, we did find weapons, all sorts of weapons, small arms mostly,

21 and we packed all of that and transported it to Banja Luka and handed it

22 over to the corps in the military post in Banja Luka. So all the weapons

23 were handed over to the military in Banja Luka.

24 Q. But they disappeared, did they not?

25 A. I don't think so. It was with the army. What happened with the

Page 22470

1 weapons later on, I really don't know. I wouldn't be able to tell you.

2 All I can tell you that we handed the weapons over to the military in

3 Banja Luka.

4 Q. On the last page of this particular document.

5 A. Let me try and find it here.

6 Q. The title is "Where are the Weapons?"

7 A. Yes, I can see it.

8 Q. It was reported, was it not, and I quote: "When Veljko Milankovic

9 and his fighters were arrested, 20 pistols, 50 Zoljas, hand-held rocket

10 launchers, and a variety of other weapons were seized. But a certificate

11 on the confiscation of the weapons was not issued to them. When the

12 military court ruled that all the confiscated items were to be returned to

13 them, the weapons were missing. Where are the weapons? Is a question" --

14 I'm sorry, I'm speaking too fast. I apologise to the translators.

15 "When the confiscated items were returned to them, the weapons

16 were missing. Where the weapons are is a question which Milenko Savic,

17 the chief of the public security station in Prnjavor at the time and

18 military security forces which participated in this operation should

19 answer. Milankovic said he knew for sure that the Zoljas remained in the

20 Prnjavor public security station, but they have simply vanished into thin

21 air."

22 They were never recovered, were they?

23 A. This is not true. This is not true. As usually he told lies.

24 This is just one of his stories to divert attention to myself, to blacken

25 me with the people and the leadership in Prnjavor. And I claim with full

Page 22471

1 responsibility that all the weapons were handed over in Banja Luka, and

2 there are documents testifying to that. I'm sure that you will still be

3 able to locate it in the public security station in Prnjavor and in Banja

4 Luka. We were very careful about all this because they -- we were aware

5 of the fact that he had said that Alija Delimustafic came from Sarajevo

6 with his Green Berets to disarm them, whereas it was us from Prnjavor and

7 Banja Luka. I'm sorry that I don't have the time to read the whole

8 article, but I'm sure that 95 per cent of it is blatant lies. So when I'm

9 reading this subtitle "Where are the Weapons?", all of this is a lie. And

10 Milankovic was known to brag a lot. He would always give himself higher

11 ranks. He would always engage in name-dropping, mentioning some leaders

12 in the area, but that would simply be bragging and not true.

13 Q. Right. Now, let me go to the Mice in Teslic where you also

14 participated in that arrest, is that not correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You -- do you know who brought the Mice into Teslic?

17 A. There are several versions of that story. Some say that it was

18 the official municipal authorities. Some say that they came from another

19 centre of power. But the fact is that they did arrive in Teslic. I

20 wouldn't be able to tell you exactly who brought them and who asked for

21 their arrival in Teslic.

22 MS. CHANA: One minute, Your Honour. I'm looking for P1939. Can

23 the usher please assist me with P1939.

24 Q. It's a document dated 17th August 1992, and it's signed by the

25 chief of the centre. At the beginning of that document, it talks about

Page 22472

1 the arrest of a group of persons in Teslic on 30th June 1992. That would

2 be the Mice, would it not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And it says: "At the request of Nikola Perisic, president of the

5 Teslic Municipal Assembly, and following a written authorisation,

6 operative commander Colonel Simic, First-Class Ljubisa Petricevic selected

7 a group of uniformed members of the military police," and it gives names.

8 Do you recognise any of these names?

9 A. Some names I do recognise, Vitomir Devic and so on and so forth.

10 I am familiar with some of these names.

11 Q. But they do belong to the Mice, is it not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it says that "in addition to the said group, at the request of

14 President Perisic, another group of ten uniformed persons were sent to

15 Teslic, Doboj CSB security services."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it talks about, over the page, that a lot of ammunition and

18 artillery was also seized at the time of the arrest. And it says that

19 "during the arrest, the following items were seized from these individuals

20 without due issuance of receipts."

21 These weapons also disappeared, did they not, Mr. --

22 A. No, they didn't. These weapons were also handed over. And most

23 of these weapons did not disappear. Those people who had sent this group

24 to do what they did in Teslic sought justification for their acts, and

25 this is nothing else but that.

Page 22473












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 22473 to 22476.













Page 22477

1 MS. CHANA: I would like to show the witness P1947, please. 1947.

2 I have the B/C/S. Would you like to take mine.

3 Q. This document is a crime situation in the area of the Teslic

4 Municipality from June to September 1992. And it's by the public

5 Prosecutor, Branko Peric.

6 A. Branko Peric.

7 Q. Branko Peric. Yes, sorry about my pronunciation. And I want you

8 to go to the second page where it says "the actual crime situation...",

9 please. Now, this is after the Mice had been arrested, is it not, the

10 date of this document? And it's talking about the crime situation in

11 Teslic after the Mice had been arrested?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And gotten rid of?

14 A. And it says that "the recorded crime is a fraction of the real

15 crime existing in society today. Most criminal acts remain undiscovered,

16 and many crimes are tolerated by the authorities for various reasons. The

17 Prosecutor's Office has knowledge of the day-to-day looting of property,

18 houses, and business premises being set on fire and destroyed, armed

19 robbery and murder being committed for base motives, socially owned flats

20 and private houses being occupied unlawfully, the stealing of forest

21 timbers. There is no criminal prosecution for most of these acts."

22 So would it not be true, then, to say that the crime continued and

23 went unpunished in the Teslic Municipality?

24 A. It may be said so, if you don't take into account the period

25 before the 2nd of June. These figures were even worse during the period

Page 22478

1 between the 31st of May and the 2nd of June. What is your ground for

2 comparison? If you have that document, you will see that measures were

3 taken and that curfew was introduced and people could only walk freely

4 around the town for three hours. It all depends on what your grounds of

5 comparison are. It is true that there was crime, but there were no

6 murders, there were no killings, no -- except for the killings in the

7 army. And if you look at this period and compare it with the period

8 between March and June, the three-month period between March and June,

9 then this report would be much better, much more favourable in comparison

10 with that period. It all depends on what this period is compared with.

11 So basically if -- I'm not saying that there was no crime. There was

12 looting. There was plunder. There were thefts. We had huge problems.

13 There were armed attacks against the police. There were renegade

14 soldiers, renegade police officers who did not want to put themselves

15 under the control of either the army or the police. So it was bad, but it

16 was not as drastic as one would think when you look at this document. And

17 I remember that people when they stopped me in the street, that they would

18 cry because they were so thankful to me.

19 I know Branko Peric personally. He is a very conscientious

20 prosecutor. He processed quite a lot of crimes at that time, which was a

21 courageous act at that time. I'm not denying that there were crimes, but

22 these figures are much better than the figures that you would find in the

23 period between the 31st of March and the 1st of June of that same year.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Savic. The Mice were also released. They were not

25 prosecuted?

Page 22479

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And they continued combat operations, right?

3 A. I don't know what they did after that. But they did not come back

4 to the area of Teslic while we were there as part of the Banja Luka

5 security centre.

6 MS. CHANA: That's all I have from this witness, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Chana.

8 Mr. Cunningham, I understand, has no redirect?

9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I have no redirect. I just would like to wish

10 the witness a safe trip home.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any questions, Judge Janu?

12 Yes, Mr. Savic, Judge Taya from Japan has some questions for you.

13 Thank you.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE TAYA: Do you know the fate of those 1.350 people, at least

16 1.000 people, after being freed from jail in Teslic? They were not

17 detained once again after being freed by Milankovic's soldiers or by

18 whoever.

19 A. May I reply.


21 A. Veljko Milankovic was not active on that territory. That is a

22 misunderstanding. As for the fate of that 1.300 people, I don't know the

23 exact number, they all went home and they were grateful to us. I knew

24 some of those people. Some of them are still in Teslic, while some left

25 later on to go to another country. However, most of them did come back

Page 22480

1 afterwards. After the collection centres were dissolved, they went to

2 their homes and they were not arrested again. There may have been

3 isolated incidents, but they were quite safe.

4 JUDGE TAYA: During your working in SJB Banja Luka from April to

5 the end of 1992, who were in the position to give you orders? Can you

6 give names of all those people.

7 A. Yes, I can. My immediate superior was Slobodan Djurdjevic. He

8 was the chief of my department when I returned to Banja Luka from Teslic.

9 JUDGE TAYA: Orders were given orally always, without any

10 justifiable supporting papers?

11 A. For the most part, the orders I received were oral, and certain

12 financial documents were shown to me, which I was supposed to control or

13 check on in companies whether state-owned or private. So it was usual in

14 my department for orders to be given orally, and the same situation still

15 obtains in the MUP, unless something was exceptional or highly

16 confidential or high risk. And in that case, written plans were drawn up

17 and written orders issued.

18 JUDGE TAYA: Were you in the position to know with the

19 organisation from which those orders first originated?

20 A. Could I have known?

21 JUDGE TAYA: Yes, were you in the position to know?

22 A. Of course the chief of the centre who was at the head of the

23 pyramid had all the information, and he could issue orders through

24 Slobodan Djurdjevic, and we mostly operated at the request of aggrieved

25 parties and pursuant to information received from the terrain, from the

Page 22481

1 ground. Perhaps a car was stolen or something was stolen, so this

2 information arrived from different levels and different places.

3 If we received information that in a company somebody had

4 appropriated a hundred thousand euros, for example, we would first check

5 the information, and then our chief would issue us with an oral order to

6 proceed.

7 JUDGE TAYA: As far as you know, those orders have never

8 originated from firstly the ARK Crisis Staff?

9 A. No. No, no they did not directly come to the department.

10 JUDGE TAYA: Nor indirectly, but they firstly originated from?

11 A. It's possible, but the police was quite independent because it had

12 its usual scheme of work. And these orders which arrived could arrive

13 from higher levels, but they did not in our case, in the centre of public

14 security. There were 10 or 20 people there, and now I think about it, no,

15 no, we didn't receive orders from higher up.

16 JUDGE TAYA: Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge Taya.

18 I have got one simple question for you, Mr. Savic: Would you

19 agree looking back at the event of Mr. Milankovic's arrest and subsequent

20 release that he enjoyed some kind of protection from higher up?

21 A. Well, I would agree, yes, he did enjoy certain protection. But I

22 also have to say that Veljko was a very dangerous criminal before the war,

23 and people were afraid of him regardless of the post they held. He had 23

24 serious crimes, or rather criminal reports behind him.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know if in actual fact he received a

Page 22482

1 decoration posthumously after he died? Are you aware whether he

2 received --

3 A. Yes, yes. There are documents to that effect, and I did have that

4 information.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous interpretation continues]...

6 A. I don't know what the military chain of command was, but the

7 document was drawn up by the person who decorated him. Whether it was a

8 military or a civilian decoration, I don't know. But -- well, he was

9 decorated. I was not.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. I don't have any further questions

11 for you.

12 Judge Janu now has a question for you, sir.

13 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Savic, it's obvious that you tried to do your

14 work decently and faithfully as a good policeman, and you could see that

15 nobody appreciated that at that time. You could see that others were

16 decorated. What was your explanation at that time? How did you -- you

17 are an intelligent, educated man. You -- I believe there was some

18 explanation.

19 A. I didn't have an explanation, and I still don't to this day. This

20 is the first time I have seen this text. I didn't follow the press. But

21 I always hoped that the war would be over one day. And I think, and I'm

22 deeply convinced, that things will fall into place. Well, I'm glad I

23 wasn't decorated, in view of everything I did and went through, perhaps I

24 deserved it.

25 JUDGE JANU: Was it apparent at that time that everybody who

Page 22483

1 didn't behave simply, say, your way, who didn't stick to the law was part

2 of something what wasn't proper? Was this apparent to everybody at that

3 time generally, that there is going on something what is not at all fair?

4 A. Well, many ordinary people thought the way I did. And they were

5 opposed to everything that was happening so that ordinary people just like

6 me hoped that better times lay ahead. And in Prnjavor, most people still

7 praise my actions, both Serbs and non-Serbs. However, that was what the

8 times were like. We were divided between those who wanted war and those

9 who didn't want war. And I most of the populations didn't want war, but

10 it was imposed on us. That is a broad topic, perhaps, and not something I

11 can go into in this courtroom.

12 But individuals came to the fore who did not deserve to be praised

13 or written about in newspapers.

14 JUDGE JANU: So everybody was able to make his or her choice where

15 to belong? Is that true?

16 A. Well, for the most part, but it was dangerous. It was dangerous

17 not to behave the way people around you were behaving, but everybody had

18 that option. The choice carried a certain risk with it.

19 JUDGE JANU: Thank you. That's all.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Janu, and thank you, Judge Taya.

21 Thank you, Mr. Savic. That brings us to the end of your testimony

22 which basically means you're free to go back home. You will be escorted

23 out of the courtroom by Madam usher, and you will be attended and receive

24 all the assistance that you require to enable you to return home. On my

25 behalf, on behalf of the Trial Chamber, on behalf of the parties here,

Page 22484

1 Madam Chana for the Prosecution and Mr. Cunningham for the Defence, I wish

2 to thank you for having come over to give testimony. And on behalf of

3 everyone, I also wish you a safe journey back home.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good-bye.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So yes, Mr. Cunningham.

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It's just a housekeeping matter, it's my

8 understanding that the Glas article dealing with Milankovic is P2707.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I have marked.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I just wanted to make sure.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Just this, Your Honour, I just want to make sure

13 that, well, I just want to get if we can a firm list of witnesses after we

14 take this next break and come back November 26th up until the Christmas

15 break. I know there has been some shifting around because of witnesses --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I imagine there will be more shifting when

17 Mr. Ackerman and Mr. Cunningham come back from wherever they are going.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: But can we get any confirmation as of today that

19 the list is staying as we received it?

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Can I call and just let you know because I know

21 that Mr. Ackerman is working on that this morning.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: It does create problems --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I have every reason to believe that this matter will

24 be looked into by Mr. Ackerman, and we'll have pretty much a clear idea of

25 what to expect and who.

Page 22485

1 MR. NICHOLLS: And the last question -- sorry. The last question,

2 is there any additional witness statement for the next witness?


4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we are going to adjourn until

5 tomorrow morning at 9.00. And your witness has arrived, I take it,

6 Mr. Cunningham?

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: My understanding is he comes in around noon today

8 because we're proofing at 2.00.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: If there is a problem or anything, please do let us

10 know.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 Any further business? No, okay. We stand adjourned until

14 tomorrow morning. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.04 a.m.

16 To be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

17 November, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.