Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22486

1 Wednesday, 12 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could you

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: What happened, Madam Registrar?

10 Yes, Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [No Interpretation]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow in a language you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, please be seated. Appearances

15 Prosecution.

16 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Julian Nicholls, assisted by

17 Denise Gustin, case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you. Appearances

19 for Radoslav Brdjanin?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm John Ackerman, with

21 David Cunningham, and Aleksandar Vujic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good morning to you too.

23 Any preliminaries?

24 MS. KORNER: Just one, Your Honour. Can I re-emphasise what

25 Mr. Nicholls raised at the end of yesterday's session that we would like

Page 22487

1 to tomorrow before we break the running order of the witnesses between the

2 26th of November and Christmas, please. The reason I ask for it is as was

3 explained yesterday, we do have to prioritise the work, and unless we know

4 who is coming, we can't do that.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, they have the list of all the

7 witnesses we are going to call by the end of December. In the Prosecution

8 case, we had to prioritise our work and we had to prepare, and they

9 wouldn't give us that kind of information until the Thursday before the

10 next week. That was the rule. That's the rule we want to follow. I

11 think it's fair. If they did it that way, we get to do it that way.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's not in fact right as I've

13 explained over and over again. Your Honour, the thing is Mr. Ackerman has

14 put back now a whole series of witnesses, and we don't know whether

15 they're coming before Christmas or what order they're coming. So, Your

16 Honour, I don't think it's an unreasonable request, and I certainly don't

17 think it's an unreasonable request to know who is coming on the week of

18 the 26th and the following week.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, I mean, let's not waste time on

20 these matters. The case of the Prosecution was somewhat different in the

21 sense that we were dealing with municipality after municipality, which is

22 not the case in your case. You've given an initial list of witnesses,

23 which has basically been divided into two parts. One part that you seem

24 to be in a position to bring forward until you finish your case as

25 promised at the end of January. And another list which we don't, but we

Page 22488

1 accept your word, that it's not likely that these people will be called.

2 January is January, and November and December is a different

3 period of time. What is being asked is since we are stopping now, and you

4 have been shifting more or less the position of these witnesses as we went

5 along, and I think the Prosecution at least ought to be put in a position

6 of -- we're talking of two weeks basically, two weeks, three weeks.

7 Whether we can stick to the list of witnesses that we have shown for the

8 weeks starting 1st December, 8 December, 15th December, and 25th, which

9 now 26th November.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I point out, if you have the list,

11 the two witnesses who were due to testify this week aren't testifying.

12 The two witnesses who were supposed to testify on the 25th of November are

13 now testifying this week. So I would like to know, please, for the week

14 of what's now the 26th of November, are we having the two witnesses who

15 should have been called on the 10th of November or are we working to the

16 1st of December or what?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the position.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: So when I made this request in the Prosecution

19 case, it was an unreasonable request and Ms. Korner --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not argue. Even we want to know what the

21 position is because the two witnesses we are having this week weren't

22 supposed to be testifying this week.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, if you order me to provide it by tomorrow,

24 I'll do that. I just think it's unfair.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Come on, Mr. Ackerman.

Page 22489

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Why do I get treated differently than --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: You are not being treated differently. You are just

3 shifting the order of the witnesses from one week to the next. And you've

4 been doing it practically since we started.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: So did they.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And understand that logistically it may become

7 necessary and you haven't been doing capriciously, but on the other hand,

8 they ought to know and we ought to know.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge very frequently, we found out on Thursday who

10 the witness was going to be on Monday. They wouldn't tell us before that.

11 That's true. That's what happened. Now you're making me do something

12 totally different, and it's just not fair.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is coming over the week of the 26th,

14 Mr. Ackerman?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I said I would provide it tomorrow if you order me.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's start from there. So the witness

17 now. Anything else?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I just want the record to show that I complained

19 more than once that we were not getting information until the Thursday

20 before We only had a few days to prepare cross-examination for the Monday

21 witness. You've never ordered them to do it any differently.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I have them all, and I will produce

23 them to you if you need them, but we have had lists months ahead of all

24 the witnesses that the Prosecution was going to produce, say, in

25 Sanski Most or in Kljuc or whatever. And then practically most of the

Page 22490

1 time, Prosecution stuck to the order in which that list was shown. It's

2 true that it was confirmed on the Thursday before, but you had the list

3 before, and the practice was to stick to that list and the order, with the

4 exception of when witnesses weren't called or when they -- there was some

5 problem, which I anticipate will occur also in your case. But it's just

6 sense of cooperation. That's all.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I have another matter to raise, Your Honour.


9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm becoming concerned about the

10 length of time that's being consumed with regard to these witnesses. And

11 I'm mostly concerned about that consumption of time which involves nothing

12 more than showing a witness an exhibit and having the witness confirm that

13 it says what it says for the sole purpose of having Your Honours look at

14 the exhibit again. And I'm as guilty of it as anyone. I've done it. And

15 if we're going to be able to put on in the short time we have been allowed

16 the number of witnesses we need to put on, we need to find a way to

17 shorten this process up. So what I strongly suggest is that you not

18 permit any of us to use an exhibit with a witness unless the witness is

19 familiar with that document and can make some contribution to the

20 Trial Chamber's understanding of that document or its contents. But just

21 to show the witness a document so that you all will see it again for maybe

22 the fourth or fifth time makes no sense.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, before I even ask Ms. Korner because

24 what you are saying has been in the back of my mind for quite some time.

25 We do lose time when it comes to showing witnesses documents. But I

Page 22491

1 strongly disagree with something that you have just said, that it should

2 become the rule not to show the witness documents with which he or she may

3 not be familiar. First of all, how are we supposed to know whether the

4 witness is familiar with a particular document or not? That's number one.

5 So you can only find that out if you show the witness the document.

6 And secondly, I disagree also with you that a witness would not be

7 in a position to enlighten the Chamber or to give information on a

8 document with which he or she is not familiar. We have had -- we have had

9 many witnesses being shown documents which then they read, and all of a

10 sudden, I mean, it dawned on them why certain things happened, why certain

11 decisions were implemented and so -- I mean, I agree with you that we

12 should be practical and reduce as much as possible the time taken first in

13 locating these documents, and then showing them to the witness. That is

14 time consuming. I agree with you. And if we can find a solution, which I

15 can only see if these documents are prepared beforehand by whoever intends

16 to make use of them and by the Registrar in particular, that's the only

17 way. Then I don't know if you have other suggestions. Please come

18 forward.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the difficulty is, of course, and let's

20 take Mr. Radic, he wouldn't take a thing unless he saw a document. I am

21 equally happy not to have to put documents because of the time it takes,

22 and I have been very guilty of not marking up the B/C/S version. In

23 future, if I show documents they will be marked for the witness if it's

24 more difficult to find. But it seems to me that you can't say if a

25 witness says "show me the document" I refuse. So that's the difficulty.

Page 22492

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely not. It's out of the question.

2 MS. KORNER: Can I point out that yesterday we sat for 45 minutes

3 because Mr. Ackerman's next witness wasn't here. It seems to me that it's

4 better in the interests of not wasting time that Mr. Ackerman has

5 witnesses here even if they have to wait. So -- but Your Honour, I'm

6 happy to simply not put documents and say, Mr. X, there's a document, I'm

7 not going to show it to you, but take it from me it says this. I'm quite

8 happy to do that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman, let's close this

10 chapter down. I appeal to you to make minimal use of documents only when

11 it's necessary. And to have them ready. I know that you have assistants,

12 and the more or less you are prepared beforehand. What I would also

13 kindly ask you to do is to make sure that the Registrar is also in

14 possession of the list of the documents you entered, and that they have

15 them ready.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we give them the list. We can't make

17 sure they get the documents ready.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, that's not your problem. But what I'm

19 inviting the Registrar to do is to have these documents ready. Perhaps

20 after consulting with the party producing those documents, whether they

21 will be made use of or not. Because most of the time, I notice that

22 there's a whole list of documents, of exhibits, that purportedly are

23 intended to be made use of, and then maybe 10 per cent of them. And I can

24 also understand that that happens as you go along with the questioning

25 because some documents are in the list because you don't know what

Page 22493

1 question to expect, what answer to expect to a particular question. So I

2 do understand that. But --

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the other reason is there's an objection

4 if we produce a document that's not on the list. So it's better in our

5 estimation --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But it has been done all the time. We complain if

7 it's not on the list because usually we don't have it. But it could be

8 dug up straight away by Madam Registrar and put on the ELMO. We have got

9 all that facility. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Just two very brief things, with regard to the

11 handling of documents, we have adopted a whole new strategy in that

12 regard. We won't require the Registrar to pull one document, I don't

13 think, during this direct examination. Everything will be on Sanction or

14 there's a book prepared for the witness with the B/C/S with the portions

15 highlighted. So there shouldn't have to be one document pulled, we hope,

16 and that should speed things up dramatically.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: If you continue with this efficiency, Mr. Ackerman,

18 you will be tempted to join the Office of the Prosecutor.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: This witness must absolutely be out of here

20 tomorrow. So I will --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not sitting on Friday anyway. So it's in

22 everybody's interest to finish tomorrow.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: So I will finish my direct today and I expect

24 Ms. Korner will finish her cross-examination tomorrow.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's the reason Mr. Ackerman is

Page 22494

1 raising that is cause I raised with him this yesterday that this was

2 clearly an important witness. That's my complaint - my complaint - about

3 not sitting on Tuesday. That witness had he been brought up could have

4 started. Your Honour, I don't know what he's going to say, but the

5 summary says he's going to talk about the background to the Serbs walking

6 out of the assembly. He can discuss the formation of the SDS party Kljuc,

7 how it was formed, provocation, he can discuss events in the national

8 assembly. Your Honour, I will do my best, but if he's going to cover

9 everything that's in that summary, well then, Your Honour, he may be

10 allowed to come back.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's start and see what the position will

12 be.

13 There are no protective measures? So Madam usher, could you

14 bring Mr. Kalabic in, please.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir. I take it that you are

17 receiving interpretation in a language that you can understand?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So welcome to this Tribunal. You are going to give

20 evidence as a witness brought forward, produced by the accused in this

21 case, Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin. Our rules require that before you start your

22 testimony, you enter a solemn declaration to the effect that in the course

23 of your testimony, you will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and

24 nothing put the truth. It's the equivalent of an oath, and it is an

25 undertaking on your part. Madam usher is going to hand you the text of

Page 22495

1 this solemn declaration. Please read it out loud, and that will be your

2 commitment.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please take a chair.

6 I'll explain very briefly what's going to happen. You are a

7 witness for the Defence, and therefore who is going to question you first

8 is Mr. Ackerman, who is the lead counsel for the accused

9 Radoslav Brdjanin. Mr. Ackerman will then be followed by Ms. Korner who

10 is the lead counsel for the Prosecutor in this case, and she'll

11 cross-examine you. On the basis of the oath that you have just taken,

12 your duty here is to answer each and every question truthfully and fully

13 without any mental reservations and without omitting to say what you know.

14 Your duty also does not depend on who is asking you the question. You do

15 not have a right to distinguish between questions put to you by

16 Mr. Ackerman for Mr. Brdjanin or questions forthcoming from the

17 Prosecution. Your duty is only towards the truth. And therefore you

18 have -- you're bound by law to answer each question truthfully and fully.

19 Have I made myself clear?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, you may proceed.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examined by Mr. Ackerman:

Page 22496

1 Q. Good morning, sir.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Your name is Rajko Kalabic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you give the Chamber just a sort of brief educational

6 background, places you went to school, degrees you achieved, things of

7 that nature.

8 A. I completed primary and secondary school in Kljuc in Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina, and then I went to the faculty of forestry in Sarajevo where

10 I graduated. I worked in Kljuc as an engineer, and I was politically

11 active as an assemblyman in the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina as a member of parliament. After the end of the war, I

13 stopped being politically active and started working as a private

14 businessman.

15 Q. Were you a member of any political parties?

16 A. I was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party from 1990. Up to

17 then, I had been a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, or

18 rather, of the then Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 Q. Have you been involved in politics up until now?

20 A. No, I'm not.

21 Q. Most of the questions I'm going to be asking you deal with the

22 period of time 1991, 1992, and maybe a tiny bit of 1993. So that will be

23 the context in which I will ask you questions. The first question I want

24 to ask you is if you knew or you knew of a Professor Muhamed Filipovic

25 from Sarajevo?

Page 22497

1 A. Yes. I knew of Professor Muhamed Filipovic. I heard about him,

2 but I didn't know him personally.

3 Q. There is a book prepared that the usher will give you that has in

4 it all of the exhibits that I'll be asking you to take a look at. It has

5 numbered tabs, and I'll tell you each time which numbered tab to look

6 under. I'm wondering if you recall Professor Muhamed Filipovic visiting

7 Kljuc in the summer of 1991 and making a speech there?

8 A. Yes, I do remember Mr. Filipovic's visit to Kljuc.

9 Q. If you look at Exhibit P854. It's tab 1 in your book. And you

10 should see highlighted there some parts of that document that I'm

11 interested in having you look at. And it's things that Professor

12 Filipovic said at the speech. And I just want to ask you about some of

13 them.

14 The first part says that he first addressed the people of Kljuc,

15 pointing out that it was a place where he felt at ease, where there are no

16 ethnic clashes because the lessons of the past have been learned well and

17 where people respect each other and that it should stay that way. Was

18 that, in fact, the situation that existed in Kljuc in June of 1991?

19 A. Yes. At that time, this was the situation in Kljuc. It was

20 peaceful. There were no interethnic clashes or tensions. And this went

21 on. In the past, because Mr. Filipovic referred to the past, since he

22 knew that in the past, in 1941, there was a horrific pogrom of the Serbian

23 people where over a thousand people - exclusively Serbs - were killed and

24 buried in a cemetery near Kljuc. A monument was erected there, and from

25 time to time memorial ceremonies were held there on the anniversary of

Page 22498

1 this event.

2 Q. Okay, we'll talk about that in a few minutes. The next thing I

3 want to point out to you and ask you about that was said by Professor

4 Filipovic was this. He was speaking of the three national parties,

5 presumably SDS, SDA, and HDZ. And he said this: "In their seven months

6 of rule, all the three national parties have to show is seeking weapons on

7 all sides, log barricades, separatists, demonstrations of power. Instead

8 of agreeing on a political program, the three parties have only agreed on

9 a division of power."

10 Do you agree with his analysis of what had happened during the

11 seven months of the existence of these three national parties being in

12 power?

13 A. I think in essence, this was not the case. Mr. Filipovic was one

14 of the founders of the SDA party, together with Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

15 But they parted ways politically, and Mr. Filipovic established a new

16 Muslim party called the Muslim Bosniak Organisation. Of course, Mr.

17 Filipovic was trying to make room for his party so that it could

18 participate in the government and in the assembly of the Socialist

19 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Muslim Bosniak party had only two

20 members of parliament. This was probably an effort to find a stronger

21 base so as to be more influential in the government.

22 As for his mentioning logs, separatists, and so on, he was

23 probably alluding to the events in Croatia.

24 Q. Those kinds of things hadn't started happening yet in Bosnia, and

25 certainly not in the Kljuc area. Is that what you're saying?

Page 22499

1 A. Yes, in the Kljuc area, nothing like that had happened.

2 Everything was peaceful. People went to work normally. They worked as

3 usual, and interethnic relations were quite normal. This speech was seen

4 as referring to something that was not usual in Kljuc.

5 Q. All right. And finally, I want to ask you about this other thing

6 that he said here. "Slovenia's and Croatia's decision to secede from

7 Yugoslavia will only make the situation more complicated for all, and

8 particularly for Bosnia and Herzegovina, which cannot consent to

9 agreements like the one between Cvetkovic and Macek, and the way they are

10 making arrangements with - something - where Muslims would be a minority

11 in a rump Yugoslavia and we do not want to live in this kind of

12 Yugoslavia." In other words, he's saying that the Muslims don't want to

13 be in a government where they would be in the minority. Correct?

14 A. That's what was said. The secession of Slovenia and Croatia from

15 the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia complicated things in

16 those areas. And it brought and instilled certain fear amongst everybody,

17 amongst Muslims. There was indeed fear that they might be a national

18 minority in the rump Yugoslavia if that rump Yugoslavia continued to exist

19 as a rump Yugoslavia. On the other hand, the Serb people were also afraid

20 that if Yugoslavia disappeared and if a centralised unitarian Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina was formed, they would become a national minority.

22 And going back to the developments and events in -- which took

23 place in 1941, they were afraid that a similar thing might happen to them.

24 So there was fear on both sides.

25 Q. All right. I'm finished with that document, then. Let me ask you

Page 22500

1 if you know and if you knew at the time another Muhamed Filipovic who

2 lived and lives in Kljuc?

3 A. Yes, I knew a Muhamed Filipovic who was younger, who was a native

4 of Kljuc, and who still lives in Kljuc to this very day.

5 Q. And I assume you also knew his brother Omer Filipovic?

6 A. Yes, I knew Omer Filipovic as well.

7 Q. Now, talking about this period of time in 1991, late 1991 when

8 Professor Muhamed Filipovic came and the months after that, do you know

9 what the relationships were like between Muhamed and Omer Filipovic and

10 the members of the SDS, the Serbs, in Kljuc? Was the relationship

11 comfortable? Was it uncomfortable? How was it?

12 A. The relationship was normal. There were no tensions. People met

13 each other. They talked to each other. So what I would say about that

14 relationship is that it was normal at that time. Although I must also say

15 that Omer Filipovic already at that time started delivering speeches which

16 may have instigated and instilled fear amongst both ethnic groups.

17 Muslims were being given to believe that something bad might happen to

18 them. On the other hand, the Serbs were also given to believe that bad

19 things might be done by the Muslims in the territory of Kljuc.

20 Q. So the talk was starting toward the end of 1991, the talk that was

21 engendering fear. And wait until I tell you to go to the next document

22 before you go. Let's finish up with this one first.

23 What I said is correct. Right?

24 A. Yes, it is correct.

25 Q. I want you to tell the Chamber just very briefly about the outcome

Page 22501

1 of the multiparty elections in Kljuc and how the municipality was

2 organised, who got various offices and things like that. And please do

3 that as briefly as you can because the Chamber has heard it before, but I

4 just want to set the scene a little bit for the rest of the questions I'm

5 going to ask you.

6 A. The multiparty elections took place in 1990. There were several

7 parties running for offices. The majority of the seats in the Municipal

8 Assembly of Kljuc was won by the Serbian Democratic Party, followed by the

9 SDA. And the Muslim Bosniak Organisation won two seats in the

10 municipality. Nijaz Durakovic's party, the SDP - I don't know what the

11 full name of this party is - also won two seats. Mr. Ante Markovic's

12 party also had two or three seats. But the majority of the seats was won

13 by the Serbian Democratic Party, followed by the SDA.

14 The SDA and the Muslim Bosniak Organisation talked about a

15 division of power, and they made a joint appearance in these talks. At

16 the beginning, we agreed that the Serbian Democratic Party would be given

17 three key positions in the municipality, and that the Muslim bloc would

18 also be given three key positions in the municipality. The first position

19 in the municipality at the time was the president of the municipal

20 assembly. And this was given to the Serbian Democratic Party.

21 The president of the municipal assembly was Mr. Jovo Banjac. His

22 deputy was somebody from the Muslim bloc. That was Mr. Omer Filipovic.

23 The second most important figure was the president of the executive board,

24 and the person appointed to that position was from the Muslim bloc, Mr.

25 Asim Egrlic. His deputy was a member of the SDS, Mr. Tihomir Dakic. The

Page 22502

1 secretary of the municipal assembly, that is the person who worked along

2 with the president of the municipal assembly and his deputy was a member

3 of the SDS. At the beginning it was Vinko Kondic. And then he was

4 replaced by Jovo Malbesa. The third position in the executive board was

5 allocated to the Muslim bloc, and the person that was appointed was Fikret

6 Balagic. So these were the six first and key positions in the

7 municipality, and they were distributed in this manner despite the fact

8 that the Serbian Democratic Party had the majority of the seats in the

9 municipal assembly.

10 In the secretariat for National Defence, the key position was

11 given to the Serbian Democratic Party. That is to their representative,

12 Slobodan Jurisic. The secretariat for general and legal affairs was given

13 to the Muslim bloc, and the person appointed to the position of secretary

14 was Merima Filipovic, the wife of Mr. Omer Filipovic.

15 Q. All right.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, if -- I leave it entirely up to you

17 because your question asked for a brief description of the scene,

18 portrayal of the scene. I leave it up to you whether you consider that

19 brief or not. So please, take the witness completely under your control

20 when you think he has gone beyond what you're seeking to obtain from him.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to stop him myself because basically I

24 think the information that he was giving was important.


Page 22503

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But for the rest, I leave him in your hands.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I considered that a brief response, Your Honour,

3 because it covered exactly what needed to be covered.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so, too.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

6 Q. Mr. Kalabic, there's a document in tab 3 that I would now like you

7 to look at. And this document is about a celebration of the anniversary

8 of the SDS and a commemoration of the victims of the Ustasha genocide

9 apparently held on the 28th or 29th of September 1991. My first question

10 about this document is why --

11 MS. KORNER: Could we have the number, please.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: It's P861.

13 Q. Is why was there a commemoration in September of 1991 of the

14 victims of Ustasha genocide? Why was that happening?

15 A. This commemoration was organised to commemorate the 50th

16 anniversary of the event that took place in 1941 when over a thousand Serb

17 civilians were executed by the fascist forces. They were all buried in a

18 joint grave in the territory of Kljuc. A monument was erected there for

19 all the victims. So this was the 50th anniversary of this incident.

20 However, this was not the only commemoration. Not only that year

21 was a commemoration held. Such a commemoration was held every year.

22 Wreaths would be placed at the monument for years. Every year there would

23 be a memorial service. However, during those early years, we couldn't use

24 the word "Ustasha genocide," but "fascist genocide," and we did not

25 mention the real victims, their names or their ethnic origin. It was only

Page 22504

1 this year, in 1991, when the spade was called a spade. So the genocide

2 was mentioned as being an Ustasha genocide, and the victims were named as

3 being Serbian civilians.

4 Q. All right. Now, you spoke at this memorial. And it should be

5 highlighted there in your document. It says this: "Another speaker to

6 address the assembly, Rajko Kalabic, SDS deputy from Kljuc, and a member

7 of the Chamber of Municipalities in the BH Assembly, noted that this was

8 the first occasion after World War II when we were actually reminded of

9 the genocide which the Ustashas committed against the Serbian people.

10 Rather late, but still in time to prevent history from repeating itself in

11 its most horrible form. A foul war was being waged in one part of the

12 country typified by the unleashing of a genocidal fascist hysteria on the

13 part of the hordes controlled by and serving the goals of the pro-fascist

14 and pro-Ustasha newly elected Croatian government."

15 When you said in there that this was the first occasion after

16 World War II when you were actually reminded of the genocide, what was the

17 occasion that triggered that memory? What were you talking about there?

18 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question. What occasion are

19 you referring to?

20 Q. You say in that -- the document at least quotes you of saying that

21 you noted that this was the first occasion after World War II when we were

22 actually reminded of the genocide. And I'm wondering what you meant by

23 that? What was the first occasion that you were actually reminded? What

24 are you talking about there?

25 A. This was the first opportunity for the newly elected multiparty

Page 22505

1 government after the socialist times in the former Bosnia and Herzegovina

2 to speak more realistically of what really happened in 1941, who the

3 victims were, who the perpetrators were, and what is happening again. And

4 are the things that are happening again something that would remind us of

5 the things that happened before in 1941?

6 Q. When you say "what's happening again," what do you mean?

7 A. What I meant at that time was the breakup of Yugoslavia, the

8 developments in the then Republic of Croatia. The war had already started

9 in Croatia, and Serbs were already finding themselves on a different side,

10 again being victims, having to leave their homes. Refugees were arriving

11 in Kljuc and all this reminded us of the things that were happening in

12 1941 in Kljuc, and we were afraid that history could repeat itself again

13 in Kljuc.

14 Q. All right. I want you to look at another part now where you also

15 made a statement. According to this document, you said the following --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the number of that document, Mr. Ackerman?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: It's the same document, P861, Your Honour.

18 Q. "Why did they have this attitude towards the JNA, wondered

19 Rajko Kalabic. And offered an answer: It was because they identified the

20 JNA with a Serbian army, but it was wrong. The army was not just a

21 Serbian army but the JNA in which all nations and nationalities were

22 represented and which was fighting for the federal state."

23 Now, stopping there, when you say "why did they have this attitude

24 towards the JNA," who are you referring to? Who's "the they"?

25 A. A certain number of people who were reserve officers of the JNA

Page 22506

1 refused to respond to the mobilisation calls and join the ranks of the

2 JNA. And that is why in my speech I alluded to them. In the former

3 times, the reserve officers of the JNA would often go for manoeuvres and

4 training. And whenever they went, they would be paid quite a lot of

5 money. However, when the time came for us to preserve peace, Yugoslavia,

6 and the JNA, then some of these people behaved differently and refused to

7 join the ranks of the JNA. Not all of them, a few of them acted that way.

8 Q. You talked about the JNA being composed of all nations and

9 nationalities. Was that the case in September of 1991, October of 1991

10 when you made this talk?

11 A. Yes, that was the case at the time. There were some people who

12 refused to join the ranks of the JNA. At that time, JNA composed of Serbs

13 and Croats. Truth be told, Croats had already left the JNA in Croatia.

14 But in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were Croats in the JNA. There were

15 Muslims, Macedonians, Serbians and so on and so forth. So JNA was still,

16 for the most part, composed of all the ethnic groups, all the

17 nationalities and national minorities.

18 Q. All right. Then finally you talk about the creation of six

19 national states in Yugoslavia, and you say that it's not satisfactory for

20 the peoples living in Bosnia. You say that "only Yugoslavia could keep

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina indivisible, not rifles, tanks, or the sacrifice of

22 human life because it could be preserved only as a federal unit of a

23 federative federal state. Everyone must help create a positive

24 atmosphere, in particular those who worked in the public sector, party

25 leaders, and manager, all citizens. Local media should also help to

Page 22507

1 create this atmosphere." What are you asking for there? What is that

2 plea?

3 A. What I had in mind was the following: If peace is not sacrificed

4 for the sovereignty of any of the republics of the former socialist

5 federative republic of Yugoslavia, so if we sit down, if we talk, if we

6 try and agree on things, if all the political figures, all the people in

7 high positions, if they sit down and discuss things and reach an

8 agreement, then there is a chance for Bosnia and Herzegovina to remain

9 integral.

10 However, I was convinced that something like that is only possible

11 in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Otherwise, I thought that the

12 unitarian Bosnia and Herzegovina could not guarantee the well being of the

13 Serbian people. That is why I said that in order to have an integral

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, we have to preserve a certain form of Yugoslavia.

15 Maybe not with Croatia, maybe not with Slovenia. But some sort of

16 Yugoslavia can guarantee peace and the integrity of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina.

18 Q. All right. We'll go to another document now.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just for the information of the

20 Chamber, and perhaps for the Prosecutor, the exhibit number is always

21 displayed down in kind of the lower left-hand part of the screen, the

22 second box on the left. You'll see P861 there. So you can always glean

23 the exhibit number by looking there.

24 MS. KORNER: The other thing, though, is that as Mr. Ackerman

25 keeps pointing out, unless he mentions the name of the exhibit number, it

Page 22508

1 doesn't go on the transcripts. So --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Absolutely true, yes.

3 MS. KORNER: -- Anything.


5 Q. The next document is P1139, and it's your tab 4, sir. This is a

6 meeting of the executive committee of the Kljuc SDS held at 1700 hours on

7 2 October 1991 on the SDS premises. I'm showing you this document because

8 your name appears in it. And you see that Krstan Zoric says: "I wish to

9 thank Veljko Kondic and Rajko Kalabic for the speech they made because it

10 was good." Do you know what speech he's referring to there?

11 A. I believe that Mr. Kondic and Mr. Zoric had in mind my speech to

12 commemorate the 50th anniversary of the pogrom of the Serbian people in

13 Kljuc. And not only Mr. Kondic and Mr. Zoric. All those who wanted to

14 voice their opinion could do so. And there were people who voiced their

15 opinions and Krstan Zoric is the only one mentioned in the minutes who

16 found it appropriate to say something like that.

17 Q. If you look a little further ahead in the document, you'll see a

18 speech by Vinko Kondic. And just quickly tell the Chamber what his

19 position was. Who was Vinko Kondic at this point?

20 A. I believe that he was still the secretary of the municipal

21 assembly. No, I apologise. Let me just try and remember. Later on, he

22 was appointed chief of the public security station, I believe.

23 Q. Okay. He says -- he says in this meeting: "I don't expect the

24 situation to improve. I don't think there will be a conflict between the

25 Serbs and the Muslims, but I believe they are better organised than we

Page 22509

1 are." Was that a general feeling at the time? Was it the general feeling

2 that there was not going to be a conflict between the Serbs and the

3 Muslims?

4 A. Yes, in the territory of Kljuc, that was the general feeling.

5 Nothing pointed to the fact that the worst might happen.

6 Q. Now, several people, then, had something to say. Vaso Stojanovic

7 talked about there being a shortage of weapons, that he's afraid that

8 younger men will leave and the old and infirm will remain unprotected and

9 asked about the chances of obtaining weapons and distributing them to the

10 people.

11 Smiljanic talked about ambiguities about the army, that Uzelac

12 should be supported. Zoric says there's a lot of fear among our people.

13 It's important to know who remains in the village. And then finally

14 Veljko Kondic says: "The fear is quite justified. The peace in Bosnia is

15 being kept by a balance of fear." There's a lot of talk there about fear.

16 What was the fear situation at this time in the Kljuc area? Was there a

17 great deal of fear among the people?

18 A. Was there a great deal of fear? I can't confirm whether this was

19 so. But of course, there was a certain amount of fear among all people.

20 This amount of fear was not caused by any events in Kljuc. But rather by

21 events in the overall area of the former Yugoslavia. So a certain amount

22 of fear was transmitted to the citizens of Kljuc, and individuals or

23 groups were mobilised on a daily basis and went to the JNA. And quite

24 often someone who was in the JNA was killed. All this influenced the

25 emergence of a certain amount of fear. However, I think the fear was not

Page 22510

1 excessive, and people didn't think that things could happen in Kljuc the

2 way they were happening in other parts of the former Yugoslavia.

3 Q. All right. I want to go now -- we're going chronologically in

4 time, Mr. Kalabic. So the next document in chronological order is

5 Document P22. Exhibit P22. And this is a document from 29 October of

6 1991, and it's tab 5 in your book. If you look at the second page, you'll

7 see that it's a document allegedly sent out by Radoslav Brdjanin as a

8 result of some meetings that took place on the 26th of October in Banja

9 Luka. And it appears to be basically a set of instructions. I want to

10 ask you about whether you ever remember seeing this in Kljuc, first of

11 all.

12 MS. KORNER: Seen it where?


14 Q. Do you remember seeing it in Kljuc, or anywhere else, this

15 document?

16 A. I personally did not have an opportunity of seeing this document

17 in Kljuc. And I think that the president, Mr. Jovanic, did not have an

18 opportunity of seeing it either because looking at the document, looking

19 through it briefly, I can see that it was sent by telex. And at that

20 time, the room where the telex was in Kljuc Municipality, there were two

21 officers there -- two officials, rather. One was Croatian; the other was

22 Muslim. And every document that arrived on the telex they handed first to

23 Mr. Filipovic. And after that, he decided at his own discretion whether

24 he would hand this document to President Banjac or not. This document did

25 not reach President Banjac because had it done so, I and other people

Page 22511

1 would probably have been informed about it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: That is an excellent living example of how much a

3 witness can tell you about a document that he has never seen before.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

5 Q. I want you to look very briefly at -- there are 14 different

6 instructions in there. And you've had a chance to see this document when

7 I showed it to you yesterday. And the question I have was, was there --

8 this document is 29 October, I believe. In that period of time, October,

9 November, December, January, in the next three or four months, were any of

10 the things listed in here actually implemented in Kljuc? Any of them?

11 A. None of this was implemented in Kljuc in the period in question.

12 Q. Now, the next document that I want you to look at refers to this

13 one. It's P90. And it's at tab 6 in your book. And this is an official

14 statement from the Muslim Bosniak Organisation of Kljuc and the Party of

15 Democratic Action, Kljuc town board, just two days later, 31 October. And

16 you'll notice in the first paragraph, it speaks about this document having

17 been received in the Municipality of Kljuc, signed by Mr. Brdjanin,

18 approved by Mr. Karadzic. And you'll see that this official statement

19 from MBO says a couple of things that I want to draw your attention to.

20 "Aware of the difficulty situation that Bosnia and Herzegovina is in, but

21 also of the fact that the war has not echoed in our community, that Kljuc

22 is peaceful, we hereby ask the forces acting in the spirit of these Orders

23 whether they want the shooting to begin in Kljuc as well."

24 And then secondly, "If they want peace, such orders should not be

25 issued, at least not in Kljuc."

Page 22512

1 Now, you've just told us that nothing in that order was

2 implemented. What does this indicate to you with regard to what was going

3 on between the various groups in Kljuc at that time, if anything?

4 A. Nothing was implemented in Kljuc that was mentioned in the

5 previous document, nor could it have been, because if the document

6 existed, it was not in the hands of President Banjac. This document,

7 however, was used by the MBO and SDA to issue a communique which might

8 have upset the population of the Municipality of Kljuc, the entire

9 population. I don't remember this being published, but I assume that in

10 circles closer to the Muslim Bosniak Organisation and the SDA, it was

11 thoroughly analysed and that the members of those parties were fully

12 familiar with it. This is one of the communiques that could have

13 contributed to negative developments in interethnic relations in Kljuc

14 Municipality.

15 Q. You have a document, sir, at tab 27 of your book, the last

16 document in your book. It's Exhibit P25. I've only got it there so you

17 can refresh your memory as to what it is. It's the variant A and B

18 document which you have seen. And I'll ask you if you've seen it before I

19 showed it to you yesterday.

20 A. Yes. I saw this document in Sarajevo.

21 Q. Now, in connection with that document, I want you to look now at

22 Exhibit P865, which is tab 7 in your book. This is a document from the

23 6th meeting of the executive committee of the Municipal Board of the SDS

24 in Kljuc on 23 December.

25 If you look at agenda item number 1, Veljko Kondic says: "Veljko

Page 22513

1 Kondic advised on the instructions for the organisation and activities of

2 the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina." Would he be referring to

3 that document P25 that you just looked at? Is that what you think he's

4 talking about?

5 A. Yes. This was the document.

6 Q. If we look, later on, Veljko Kondic says: "Today we will

7 determine who has to do what. And at the next meeting we'll discuss why

8 things were not done, and those who did not work will be held

9 responsible." And then a person called Brane Vojvodic says: "I can

10 accept all Karadzic's proposals without seeing them." And then Veljko

11 Kondic says: "That means that all suggestions and tasks from the

12 instructions are accepted." So basically that means, that document was

13 basically accepted by the SDS board in Kljuc. Correct?

14 A. Yes, it was accepted without a vote, to be sure. But in essence,

15 the document was accepted as it stands.

16 Q. And if we look over at -- I don't know if it's the next page in

17 your document, but further on in the document: "After the recess, Rajko

18 Kalabic informed on the second part of the Serbian Assembly." Then Dragan

19 Smiljanic says: "I think that the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina is

20 being neglected and that should be worked on since everything else is

21 utopia." Do you have any idea what he meant by saying the Autonomous

22 Region of Bosnian Krajina was being neglected?

23 A. Dr. Dragan Smiljanic, in fact, said something that was true. The

24 Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina, when Kljuc was in question, was

25 really not something that came to life in any of its segments. That is

Page 22514

1 why Mr. Smiljanic said this, and I think that he was advocating an attempt

2 to try to bring to life the idea of the Autonomous Region of the Bosnian

3 Krajina which, in the beginning, was envisioned as an economic category on

4 the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina in which the interests of the

5 Serbian people and all the other peoples would be protected economically

6 because it should be noted that at that time, all resources from all the

7 municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina went to the budget of the

8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the funds which were mostly located

9 in Sarajevo. In these times of conflict, while the Federal Republic of

10 Yugoslavia was falling apart, fewer and fewer funds from Sarajevo were

11 forwarded to certain programmes in the municipalities in the Bosnian

12 Krajina. And therefore, the standard of living in the municipalities of

13 the Bosnian Krajina deteriorated because of the lack of funds. At one

14 time, we even went to Banja Luka from Kljuc to ask the president of the

15 Banja Luka municipality which was and still is financially the strongest

16 municipality to remit to us certain funds so that old-age pensioners in

17 Kljuc of all three ethnic groups could be paid their pensions, which were

18 not arriving from Sarajevo.

19 I don't remember whether we got this in Banja Luka, but we did get

20 some funds in Gradiska for this purpose.

21 Q. I think you've more than answered the question I asked. Milan

22 Jovicic, then, says that he thinks the Assembly of the Serbian

23 Municipality of Kljuc should be proclaimed at the Assembly session. And

24 then says: "I asked that this meeting be informed about the second

25 stage," presumably referring again to the instructions, Document P25. And

Page 22515

1 you respond to that: "The first stage is the preparation for the second

2 stage, so there is no need to introduce the second stage."

3 I think it's clear what you're saying there. Are you saying that

4 all we're going to do right now is prepare, but go no further? Is that

5 what you're suggesting?

6 A. Yes, although I wasn't making the decision, but I suggested that,

7 just as I've said, the first stage is only a preparation for the second

8 stage. And as regards the Municipality of Kljuc, in my view at the time,

9 the second stage would not have to be implemented. Of course, I'm

10 referring to instruction that bears the number 27 here.

11 Q. All right. Moving forward now in time, the next document is a 29

12 January 1992 document. And it has been marked DB316.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: And I understand, Your Honour, that there is a --

14 MS. KORNER: It's P872 as well, Your Honour.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: -- It's P872 as a Prosecutors exhibit, and I didn't

16 discover that until this morning until Ms. Korner told me about it.

17 Q. This is a document, a report of a meeting between the SDA and MBO

18 apparently held on January 29th. And the first paragraph reads as

19 follows: "At yesterday's session of the SDA and MBO deputies' club, the

20 formation of a new Municipality of Bosanski Kljuc was proclaimed, which

21 does not accept the unlawful and unconstitutional decisions of the

22 Municipal Assembly concerning the inclusion of this municipality into the

23 Autonomous Region of the Bosnian Krajina."

24 And then secondly Omer Filipovic was elected the first president

25 of this municipality and is also the deputy president of the Kljuc

Page 22516

1 Municipal Assembly.

2 If we then look at the very end of this document, they're talking

3 about the creation of nine new local communes in the new Municipality of

4 Bosanski Kljuc that have a majority Muslim population, that they will not

5 do that demarcation right now, but that the citizens have already

6 expressed their will about this at rallies.

7 "It is also true that this is the first Muslim municipality in

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, but its fate depends on the move of the partner,

9 the SDS, because if there is no regionalisation on an ethnic basis, then

10 there will be no Municipality of Bosanski Kljuc either."

11 Were you aware of this going on at the time and what the MBO and

12 SDA was doing in trying to set up a Bosanski Kljuc Muslim Municipality?

13 A. First of all, I wish to affirm once again that at the beginning

14 the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina was envisioned as an economic

15 category. I will not repeat this again unless asked to explain this in

16 greater detail. And what is stated in this exhibit confirms the earlier

17 statements by Mr. Vinko Kondic who said that the SDA and the MBO, that is,

18 the Muslim people, were far better organised than the Serbian people at

19 that time in Kljuc.

20 This material shows that with regard to the division of Kljuc

21 Municipality into two municipalities, one Muslim and one Serb, was

22 something that all citizens of Muslim ethnicity knew about. It also

23 states that they agreed with this. Whether this occurred spontaneously or

24 whether it was their response to the establishment of the Autonomous

25 Region of the Bosnian Krajina, when we assemblymen -- I was not an

Page 22517

1 assemblyman, but when the municipal assembly of Kljuc reached the decision

2 to join the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina, then Serbs and Muslims

3 alike were equally represented in that assembly. And Mr. Omer Filipovic

4 was one of the assemblymen. Among these assemblymen, there were also

5 assemblymen from opposition parties. Therefore, this was probably a

6 reaction. I think that somebody from the top in Sarajevo suggested to

7 Mr. Filipovic that he had made a mistake and that he should not accept

8 something like that and that he would have to annul it very soon.

9 Q. All right. Just about two days later, this new Bosanski Kljuc

10 Assembly issued a second official announcement. That's P872, and you

11 should find it at tab 9, sir.

12 MS. KORNER: Same one.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


15 Q. It talks about failed attempts to have a meeting of the municipal

16 assembly. It talks about representatives of the newly formed Bosanski

17 Kljuc Municipality Assembly leaving the session of the municipal assembly.

18 They say that "the reason for leaving the session at this time was the

19 fact that the SDS in the joint assembly rejected their objections to the

20 agenda that were based on a request to protect legality." They said:

21 "These were reasoned requests by the SDA and MBO for the item on

22 unauthorised building in Kljuc Municipality not to be removed from the

23 agenda which was a subject of debate in earlier meetings of the executive

24 committee at which there was mention of embezzlement and unlawful

25 activities, and crime involving some SDS assemblymen and certain

Page 22518

1 officials."

2 Can you tell us what that was about, the unauthorised building in

3 Kljuc Municipality, and why did that have the MBO SDA all stirred and

4 walking out of the assembly?

5 A. At that time, on the territory of Kljuc Municipality, a building

6 was erected, which was a commercial and artisans centre. This was the

7 first building of this type in Kljuc. Its construction began quite a lot

8 earlier while there was still harmony in the Kljuc Municipal Assembly, and

9 it was the -- it was a cooperative in Kljuc that was privately owned that

10 was doing the construction. These problems were raised as issues at the

11 municipality only later on. I really wasn't aware that these problems

12 existed. These issues were raised at the session of the assembly when the

13 building was already being completed. The roof was being constructed. So

14 I wonder why this issue was not raised earlier.

15 And I think that this was only used as an excuse to justify

16 walking out of the joint assembly of Kljuc Municipality by the Muslim

17 bloc. I think it was only an excuse for them to walk out. And the real

18 reason was different.

19 Q. All right. I have another question about that document after the

20 break, Your Honour.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I wonder if the witness could leave, and

22 I could just mention one matter before Your Honours leave.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, usher, could you escort the witness out,

24 please. We are going to have a short break, Mr. Kalabic. 25 minutes.

25 Yes, Ms. Korner.

Page 22519

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I take it that after one year, ten

2 months, and however many days of trial, that Mr. Ackerman now having led

3 from his own witness variant A and B, which was accepted, put into

4 practice, and the allegations notwithstanding, it's now accepted that is a

5 document issued by the SDS main board and received by the municipalities

6 so that I no longer have to waste any further time cross-examining or

7 calling evidence to prove it?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It did occur to my mind as well actually, but of

9 course I wouldn't have put the question myself.

10 MS. KORNER: I should add, in the Rule 98, Your Honour, this

11 particular municipality was referred to as showing it was not implemented.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's very clear that it was received

13 in Kljuc, that that particular document was, and that's all I'm actually

14 conceding at this point.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's leave it at that, Ms. Korner. It

16 doesn't lead us anywhere.

17 We'll resume after 25 minutes from now. Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You may proceed, Mr. Ackerman.


22 Q. Sir, we were looking at Document P872, tab 9 in your book. If you

23 look at the very end of the document now, you'll see some more language.

24 It indicates this second session of this Bosanski Kljuc group was held

25 immediately after they withdrew from the municipal assembly, that they

Page 22520

1 examined the situation in detail, and the move that was made was the only

2 possible thing to do as the unruliness and lawlessness had to be finally

3 pointed out, highlighting them now as the basis and only cause of the

4 cessation of the work of the joint Skupstina and not political reasons

5 which are constantly highlighted by the ranks of the SDS deceiving the

6 public and obscuring the truth.

7 And then finally they call on the public prosecutor's office and

8 the competent organs of the Ministry of the Interior to conduct a thorough

9 examination and investigation into the legality of certain decisions of

10 the Kljuc Skupstina Opstina and certain state administrative organs and

11 officials of the Kljuc SO.

12 Did that investigation take place, did the public prosecutor's

13 office conduct an investigation to your knowledge?

14 A. No, the office of the public prosecutor did not carry out any

15 investigation, although later on at the assembly, this issue was

16 considered, this issue is illegal construction. It would be unrealistic

17 to see the Muslim bloc leaving the joint assembly, and it says here that

18 the only and main reason for the cessation of the work of the joint

19 assembly is illegal construction. It also says that the political reasons

20 do not exist. It is unrealistic, and the majority of the assemblymen

21 would not leave the assembly only because of this suspicion about one

22 building being erected against the law.

23 Q. All right. Now, this document is signed by a large number of

24 people.

25 A. On this list, there are assemblymen of the SDA and the Muslim

Page 22521

1 Bosniak Organisation. There are no other names here.

2 Q. Do you see the signatures at the end of that document, the tab 9

3 document? It's signed by a large number of people. Do you see all those

4 signatures?

5 A. Yes, I can see all the signatures.

6 Q. Can you recognise any of them? Do you know who any of those

7 people are that signed it? And if so, can you tell us the names of the

8 peoples whose signatures you can recognise.

9 A. On the right-hand side, Omer Filipovic; Egrlic, Asim; Feho

10 Botanic, I know them. Muhamed Filipovic; Ferid Dizdarevic; Alma Zumanovic

11 [phoen]; Ibrahim Egrlic; Rasim Delic; Cerimagic [phoen]. I know all of

12 these people. They were all assemblymen in the Municipality of Kljuc.

13 Q. So they were all in the Kljuc Municipal Assembly, but also

14 apparently part of this Bosanski Kljuc Assembly also?

15 A. Yes. They are the ones who signed this document as the

16 assemblymen of the Bosanski Kljuc Municipality.

17 Q. All right. The next document is DB315. It's tab 10 in your book.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's also 868.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


21 Q. This is entitled "a report from the Kljuc Municipal Assembly of 2

22 February 1992." It talks about events that went on in the municipal

23 assembly a couple of days after the last document that we saw. It says at

24 the beginning of the session, President Jovo Banjac read a statement of

25 the SDA caucus regarding the declaration of a Muslim Municipality of

Page 22522

1 Bosanski Kljuc. And the request and condition for the participation of

2 SDA and MBO in the assembly. They wanted an item on the agenda regarding

3 the adoption of the decision to hold a referendum on a sovereign and

4 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina and a change of the decision under

5 which the Kljuc Municipality joined the Autonomous Region of Krajina which

6 was adopted 26 December 1991 when the assembly had been suspended.

7 Then the response of the SDS was that the SDS caucus does not

8 accept the request of the SDA and MBO caucus to adopt a decision on

9 holding a referendum on an independent and sovereign Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina because that's a referendum of the Muslim and Croatian ethnic

11 communities. Since the Serbian ethnic community held its referendum in

12 the form of a plebiscite and got an answer to the question of what the

13 Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina want. Therefore, the Serbian

14 people will not take part in the referendum and for this reason do not

15 need a referendum.

16 And after this reply from the SDS, Omer Filipovic took the floor

17 and said he was going to present the views of the SDA and MBO. And you'll

18 see those outlined at some length, then, in this document. He says if the

19 municipal assembly doesn't adopt a decision regarding a referendum on an

20 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, that the SDA and MBO would do that and

21 they would organise the referendum among the Muslim people and among those

22 peoples and ethnic minorities who want that. They are calling for

23 reformulating the decision under which Kljuc Municipality joined the

24 Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina. And then he speaks about

25 transforming local communes. Do you know what he's talking about there?

Page 22523

1 A. Yes, Mr. Omer Filipovic presented a condition for the work of the

2 Muslim bloc, and that was the request for the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc

3 to adopt a decision on holding a referendum on an independent Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina. Obviously the SDS assemblymen could not accept such a thing

5 because the plebiscite had been held amongst the Serbian people, and the

6 Serbian people opted for the nonacceptance of such a referendum.

7 Unfortunately, in this Assembly of the socialist Republic of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina --

9 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I'm sorry. The only thing I'm really interested in

10 is if you know what he meant when he spoke about transforming local

11 communes. I think the rest of it is pretty clear.

12 A. The transformation of local communes referred to the establishment

13 of nine local communes in which Muslims would be a majority. Those local

14 communes would then be legalised by a decision of the municipal assembly,

15 and this would serve to give legality to the newly established Muslim

16 assembly of Kljuc. So this referred to the nine Muslim local communes.

17 Q. The document then talks -- says: "A real storm started when the

18 Assembly President - that would be Mr. Banjac - proposed taking off the

19 agenda a report on the illegal construction in Kljuc Municipality with the

20 explanation that it is incomplete and should be supplemented with concrete

21 data.

22 "There was a discussion that ensued. It triggered a storm

23 immediately at the beginning. Muhamed Filipovic, Jovo Malbesa, and Asim

24 Egrlic took part in the discussion."

25 Egrlic disagreed with the President's explanation on postponing

Page 22524

1 and asked the SDA and MBO deputies to leave, which they then apparently

2 did. They apparently departed the assembly. Then it says for a moment,

3 the situation became uneasy but the session continued since besides the

4 SDS deputies' opposition, deputies... And there was a quorum for the

5 assembly to work.

6 Then it talks about additional discussion and lists the names of

7 some people who took part in that discussion. Can you just tell the

8 Chamber the people that are listed there, Milan Jovicic and that group of

9 people, are those SDS delegates? Are they all Serbs? Tell us who they

10 are.

11 A. Milan Jovicic and Ljuban Jovicic are SDS members. Azimir Burzic,

12 I believe, is -- was an independent candidate who had his own party.

13 Mirko Kvrgic was the president of Mr. Nijaz Durakovic's party of the SDP.

14 And Jovo Dimitrovic was a member of Mr. Ante Markovic's party of

15 reformists.

16 Azimir Burzic, I believe that he was from a mixed marriage, and

17 the rest of them are Serbs.

18 Q. Am I correct in concluding this document in concluding that

19 what --

20 MS. KORNER: Before we even get the question, the whole question

21 is beginning to be leading. Am I correct in assuming that this

22 document...? The proper question is: What does this document say, or

23 whatever it is, but not am I correct in assuming.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, do you have any major difficulty

25 in rephrasing.

Page 22525

1 MR. ACKERMAN: No, I have no difficulty in rephrasing.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's proceed, please.


4 Q. Were the SDA and MBO delegates there suggesting that they were not

5 willing to go along with a majority vote on this issue?

6 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, it's still leading.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It is leading, yes.

8 MS. KORNER: What were the SDA delegates doing? That is the

9 proper way of asking the question.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you don't need to explain it further. You're

11 right, Ms. Korner. Please, don't lead. Mr. Ackerman, rephrase your

12 question, please.


14 Q. What were these delegates saying with regard to whether or not --

15 to their position regarding the vote in the assembly regarding this

16 matter?

17 A. Having received information -- actually having listened to

18 Mr. Jovo Banjac, the president of the assembly, the present assemblymen of

19 the Muslim bloc again referred to the information on illegal construction.

20 And they used this illegal construction to leave the session of the

21 municipal assembly. Before that, they raised four or five very important

22 issues on which the municipal assembly had to vote without mentioning the

23 illegal construction. The first one was referendum. The second was

24 autonomous region. Three, local communes. The fourth was the

25 implementation of the laws passed by the Government of Bosnia and

Page 22526

1 Herzegovina. And five concerned some issues regarding the illegal work of

2 the municipal assembly. The Muslim bloc representatives again used

3 illegal construction as it says in this text to leave the joint assembly.

4 They did not use the previous issues that they raised.

5 Q. All right. The next meeting I want to draw your attention to is a

6 meeting of the municipal board of the SDS, then, held on 18 February 1992.

7 That's Document P876, your tab 11.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just say, I'm sorry, I gave a

9 wrong exhibit for the last document. It's P873. I said 868, and it's

10 873.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


13 Q. If you look at item 1 on the agenda, it refers to you. It says:

14 "Rajko Kalabic addressed the meeting underlining the importance of

15 adoption of a constitution by the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina before the referendum." What was that important

17 about? What were you talking about there?

18 A. At that time, we believed that it would be very important to adopt

19 a constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina because

20 we believed that in that way, the referendum could be stopped. The

21 referendum at which two peoples were supposed to adopt a decision on

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent and sovereign state. We believed

23 that if we adopted a constitution of the Serbian Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, we could prevent the referendum. Unfortunately, the

25 referendum did take place. And I've already said that the HDZ and SDS

Page 22527

1 came to some joint positions in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 There were some joint positions that could be interpreted as something

3 that would indicate that there wouldn't be any referendum. However, the

4 referendum did take place without the Serbian people.

5 Q. All right. It then says that you spoke about the division of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina into cantons, and that you raised the issue of

7 converging positions of the HDZ and the SDS. Is that what you were just

8 talking about?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer yes or no, please. Just yes or no.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


13 Q. A little further down in the document, you again speak. You say:

14 "All parties members have distanced themselves from Vinko Stupar's

15 statements because he is not a member of the SDS. As for the division of

16 Kljuc into cantons, it will proceed as we agree, but we shall not give up

17 anything that is ours. We should pursue a single policy with regard to

18 the Serbian people. The SDS thinks that what M. Babic has proposed is the

19 best solution, only it is not practicable."

20 Do you have any memory of what it was you were specifically

21 referring to in that paragraph?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you referring to the contents of the entire

23 paragraph, or are you interested in any particular part of it,

24 Mr. Ackerman? Because there is two parts. There is Babic, and then there

25 is also the division.

Page 22528












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 22528 to 22537.













Page 22538

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, there are two parts in there, Your Honour, and

2 I am interested in his memory with regard to all of them.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's take them one by one. I think I would suggest

4 you address him straight away to the first one.


6 Q. The first one was distancing yourselves from the statements of

7 Vinko Stupar. Do you remember what that was about?

8 A. Yes, Mr. Vinko Stupar talked about the division of the

9 Municipality of Kljuc that was already underway. We could not support

10 that, and that's why we have distanced ourselves from some of his

11 statements that concerned the division of Kljuc.

12 Q. We already know that the MBO was talking about these communes that

13 would be part of the -- Bosniak Kljuc. Is that what this discussion is

14 about, is what communes would be Bosanski Kljuc and what communes would be

15 basically Srpski Kljuc, I suppose?

16 A. Yes. Stupar advocated such a position, which was not acceptable.

17 Q. And how was the SDS position different from Stupar's?

18 A. The SDS in Kljuc tried to preserve peace, to minimise tensions

19 among different ethnic groups. We wanted Kljuc to remain peaceful and

20 calm. We wanted it to continue being one municipality, and not a

21 municipality that would be divided into two ethnically-based parts. And

22 the SDS managed to have it that way for quite a long time.

23 Q. And do you have any memory now about what it was that M. Babic had

24 proposed that you characterise as the best solution but not practicable?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is this Babic, first of all? Because we have

Page 22539

1 heard of different Babic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me who Babic is?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sir.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that this was Mr. Milan

5 Babic from Knin. And about his proposal for an independent Serbian state

6 that would be a joint state for the part in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

7 part in Croatia. Obviously, we believed that this would be the best thing

8 for the Serbian people in that area, but we also believe that this was not

9 feasible, that it was not practicable, and that's why we didn't accept

10 that proposal.


12 Q. The next part of this document, you'll see it a little further in

13 the document. Jovanka Cvijic says: "It is a disgrace that Muslims are

14 putting up barricades while we people are being taken in - something. Our

15 reactions are slow." Were there any barricades being put up by people in

16 Kljuc at this time?

17 A. Not in Kljuc. There were no barricades in Kljuc at that time. I

18 don't remember that any barricades were put up at that time.

19 Q. Do you have any idea what this person is talking about?

20 A. I assume -- this is Mrs. Jovanka Cvijic who resided in a village

21 in which there was a Muslim majority. And I suppose that she must have

22 noticed something there and mentioned it at this session. We didn't have

23 any significant information about that, and that's why we did not

24 seriously consider this.

25 Q. If you look a little further through the document, you'll see that

Page 22540

1 you speak again. And you say: "It will be well advised to know if the

2 army will come by Friday or not. Politics has no place on a work site."

3 Can you explain that statement to the Trial Chamber. What are you talking

4 about? There are two things you say there, one about the army coming and

5 one about politics on the work site. Take your time, and if you remember,

6 tell the Chamber what you were referring to.

7 A. At that time, the JNA was being transferred from Croatia either to

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina or to Yugoslavia. I'm not sure. But there was an

9 engineering regiment that was supposed to come from Croatia and be

10 accommodated in an industrial facility which was on the border between the

11 municipalities of Kljuc and Bosanski Petrovac. There was a lot of

12 discussion about that, and there was a lot of stories about that which

13 caused a certain degree of unrest among the population. And since some

14 deadlines were mentioned and these deadlines were not met, I raised that

15 issue at one of the meetings, and I asked whether anybody knew whether the

16 next deadline would be met for this to happen. So that would be the first

17 part of my answer.

18 It was my general view that politics should not interfere with the

19 work of economic subjects. After the disappearance of the League of

20 Communists in this area and after the creation of the parties that were in

21 power, all the party activities were removed from companies. And it was

22 in that sense that I spoke at that meeting.

23 Q. All right. The next document is P897, and I think we can deal

24 with this rather quickly. It's at tab 14. It's from May of 1992, but we

25 don't know what day in May. It's called "a proposed work schedule for

Page 22541

1 municipal bodies in war conditions." And several pages in, in the

2 English, it's on the fourth page, it names an executive board, and lists

3 you as number 6 as a member of that executive board.

4 Is it the case that you were -- you became a member of some

5 executive board as a result of this document?

6 A. At that time, I was not a member, or rather I had not been

7 nominated as a member of the executive board because this is just a

8 proposal. This was a different man, but my name was put there by mistake

9 under number 6. It should say "Rade," not "Rajko" as the first name.

10 This document relied on the instructions that I have as number 27.

11 And of course --

12 Q. You're talking about the document P25, the instructions for the

13 organisation and so forth?

14 A. Yes. It refers to that document, yes.

15 Q. So when this says that were made a member of that executive board,

16 that's just not the case. Is that your position?

17 A. That's right. My name was entered here by mistake. I was not the

18 man.

19 Q. If we look at the Serbian version of that document, the last page,

20 we see that there's no signature on it. And up at the top of that last

21 page, you see that things are being crossed out and written over. Do you

22 have any sense as to whether this was a finished document or not?

23 A. The document was only a proposal. It probably had to be tabled at

24 a meeting, and then adopted.

25 Q. Okay. All right. The next document I want to go to now is at

Page 22542

1 your tab 15. It's Exhibit P186. And first I'm going to show you the

2 Serbian version of the document, which you have in front of you. It's

3 from the ARK Crisis Staff. And it has Mr. Brdjanin's name on it, which

4 you notice that it has a "za" there. What does that mean? Does that mean

5 that Mr. Brdjanin signed this or not?

6 A. Mr. Brdjanin did not sign this document. There is somebody else's

7 signature here. I really don't know whose, but it wasn't signed by him.

8 Q. All right.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it, therefore, that you are familiar with

10 Mr. Brdjanin's signature, sir?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In front of the word "president," it

12 says "for." I am convinced that Mr. Brdjanin would not have written

13 "for," and then signed his own name.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But my question is different. I'm not asking you

15 whether you're reaching the conclusion that it's not the signature of

16 Mr. Brdjanin because there is the "za." I'm asking you whether you knew

17 and still can recognise the signature of Mr. Brdjanin.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I've had the

19 opportunity of seeing his signature. And of course, I would not be able

20 to recognise it now.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So your conclusion that it is not Mr. Brdjanin's

22 signature, it's only because there is the "za"?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, Mr. Ackerman.


Page 22543

1 Q. Now this document is an 11 May 1992 document from the Autonomous

2 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka. It asks various

3 municipalities to immediately deposit monies to a specific account to be

4 used for financing institutions of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

5 You'll see that number 7 there is Kljuc, asking Kljuc to deposit 1.116.990

6 dinars to that account. Do you know if that payment was actually made by

7 Kljuc?

8 A. The municipality did not make this payment. It did not make this

9 payment at all, and I'm convinced that other municipalities did not do

10 that either.

11 Q. All right. The next document, then, is Exhibit P51. This is a

12 meeting which was held on 14 May of 1992 apparently by the command of the

13 1st Partisan Brigade. And under "present at the meeting," number 11 shows

14 your name. So you apparently were present at that meeting. Correct?

15 A. I was present at the meeting, yes.

16 Q. If you look over probably on the second page, you'll see a report

17 from the Jajce SO. And it says that: "The Serbs are leaving the town in

18 droves." Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you have any independent knowledge of that? Would you know

21 why -- Did you know that Serbs were leaving, and would you know why they

22 were leaving?

23 A. Serbs from Jajce in that period and a little before that moved out

24 because there was fear among them that something might happen that they

25 didn't want. They were all trying to find safety for their families, and

Page 22544

1 they didn't feel safe in Jajce. The majority of the Serbs from Jajce

2 moved out, and most of those people went to Jezero, which is a place close

3 to Jajce, as far as I know.

4 Q. If you look a little further, you'll see that Jovo Banjac, the

5 president of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly was there. And what he had said

6 to this group was that in Kljuc, the policy of finding a peaceful solution

7 to the problems was still being pursued.

8 Was that true on May 14th?

9 A. Yes. This was true. Jovo Banjac and the other people who were

10 then in the government throughout this time were very active in trying to

11 preserve peace in the Municipality of Kljuc and in finding peaceful

12 solutions to all outstanding issues facing people in the government.

13 Q. And finally at the very end of the document, it says that there

14 were some conclusions that were unanimously adopted. Was a vote taken

15 regarding these conclusions? How did it come about that they were

16 unanimously adopted, or were they?

17 A. There was no vote, so no voting took place. But nobody expressed

18 any opposition to any of these conclusions. That's why it says here that

19 the conclusions were unanimously adopted.

20 Q. I think we have to go back for a moment so you'll understand the

21 question I'm asking you. If you look -- I think it may be a page back up

22 above where Jovo Banjac spoke, Milan Malidja from Mrkonjic Grad explained

23 a meeting where everybody had been in Banja Luka where strategic goals

24 were formulated and he set out what those goals are one through six. Do

25 you see that?

Page 22545

1 A. Yes, yes, I do.

2 Q. And then if you go to that last page of the document that we were

3 just referring to, the first proposal that we see there apparently refers

4 to those six goals. And it says: "Implement the decisions from the

5 meeting in Banja Luka." And then says: "But submit them to the commands

6 of units and municipalities." Do you know what that means, the language

7 "but submit them to the commands of units and municipalities"? Do you

8 know why that's added to the "implement the decisions"?

9 A. Probably Colonel Galic meant to say that the conclusions of the

10 assembly were something that the commanders of the army should be informed

11 of. That's what this referred to.

12 Q. All right, that gets us now up to the 27th of May. Did you go to

13 work on the 27th of May 1992 in Kljuc?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Where did you go to work that day?

16 A. I worked in Sip Kljuc, as the director of one of the plants there.

17 The company had six or seven plants there. I can't remember.

18 Q. That was a company that dealt with forest products, was it?

19 A. Forestry, timber, furniture, transport.

20 Q. Did everyone come to work that day or not?

21 A. Unfortunately on that day, part of the work force who were ethnic

22 Muslims did not report to work. And I noticed this only later on.

23 Q. Did that only happen at Sip or did that happen at other workplaces

24 in Kljuc that day?

25 A. According to information I received later on, this was the case in

Page 22546

1 all other companies as well.

2 Q. What else happened in the Kljuc vicinity on May 27th, just very

3 briefly, and then we'll go into these things in more detail later? Just

4 very briefly, what else happened that day?

5 A. On the 27th of May, an attack was mounted on the police. A

6 policeman was killed in the attack, and some others were killed -- were

7 wounded.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologises.

9 A. And then there was an ambush which fired shots at the column of

10 young soldiers on their way back from Knin in the direction of Banja Luka,

11 and I believe they were to continue on towards Serbia and Montenegro. In

12 this attack on the military convoy, several soldiers of various

13 ethnicities were killed. And a large number were wounded. These were

14 18-year-olds, young conscripts who had been in the army only for a month

15 or two. And they were on their way back without any weapons, so they were

16 unable to defend themselves.

17 Q. All right. I'd like you to look now at another document. It's

18 P1012, 1012, and it's tab 21 in your book. And the first page that I'm

19 interested in is page 8 in the English, page 12 in yours, in a section

20 Roman numeral 6, course of combat activities. I'm going to try and make

21 this as easy --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you sure you didn't invert this? Because it's

23 page 12 in the English, and if that is right, it should be page --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: It's page 8 in his and page 12 in mine. Thank you,

25 Judge.

Page 22547

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


3 Q. Roman numeral 6, course of combat activities. I'm not going to

4 read this because everybody in the room can read it. I'd just like you to

5 look at that paragraph and just tell the Chamber whether or not you

6 believe that's an accurate report. Have you found it? It's page 8, Roman

7 numeral 6, course of combat activities.

8 A. I need a little time to look at this and read it.

9 Q. It should be about five lines. It's the part that I've

10 highlighted there in yellow on page 8.

11 A. I think that this statement is true.

12 Q. All right. I want to take you now to the next page, page 9. It's

13 page 13 in English. And there's a large block there under the heading

14 "setting of ambushes in the area." It's one long paragraph beginning:

15 "On 27 May 1992, about 0900 hours..." What I want you to do is read

16 through that and tell the Chamber whether or not you believe it's

17 accurate. If there's any of it you think is not accurate, let us know.

18 A. I think that this statement is true.

19 Q. Okay. The next part that I want to refer you to is on your page

20 10. It's number 14 -- page 14 in English under the heading "2, setting of

21 the ambush in the area of Busija and the village of Pudin Han." Just read

22 through that paragraph. And again, it's the same thing. If you think

23 it's accurate, tell the Chamber. If you think it's not, tell the Chamber

24 where you think it's not accurate.

25 A. I think this statement is accurate.

Page 22548

1 Q. All right. And still on page 10 on your document, and it's page

2 15, I believe, on ours, it's under number 4: "Blowing up of the M-5

3 road." Begins: "In the evening of the same day, an attempt was made to

4 blow up the M-5 Highway." Do you know about that? If you do, is that an

5 accurate statement?

6 A. Yes, this, too, is accurate.

7 Q. And then finally on the next page, 11 of your document and the

8 same page in the English, it's under number 5: "Attack on the checkpoint

9 in Velagici." If you know about that, is that an accurate statement?

10 A. Yes, this, too, is accurate.

11 Q. All right. Thank you.

12 Once it became known in the town of Kljuc about what had happened

13 out there in the Pudin Han area, was there a meeting of the crisis staff

14 then held on that day? And in that connection, look at P208, please.

15 It's tab 17 in your book.

16 This document seems to refer to a Kljuc Crisis Staff meeting of 27

17 May 1992, has several numbered paragraphs. Before I ask you about any of

18 those, did you attend this meeting?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Just as a general proposition, could you tell the Chamber what

21 this meeting was like. Was it a calm meeting? Was it an excited meeting?

22 What was the attitude of people who attended this meeting?

23 A. The people who attended this meeting, to say the least, were

24 terribly afraid and felt great uncertainty. They displayed, or rather

25 they knew that they bore enormous responsibility, but they did not have

Page 22549

1 the strength to take any action that might prevent the further escalation

2 of negative events in the area of the Kljuc Municipality.

3 Q. All right. Look at the first paragraph of this document. It

4 says: "Legitimacy is rendered to the decisions of the Autonomous Region

5 Crisis Staff." After this date, after May 27th, were all the decisions

6 and conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff implemented in Kljuc?

7 A. In this situation, after the events just mentioned, I have to

8 admit that we suddenly recalled that at one time an autonomous region had

9 been formed and that this autonomous region had its crisis staff. Not a

10 single conclusion of the crisis staff was analysed by us, but in this

11 situation of uncertainty, we put on the agenda the fact that we were

12 giving legitimacy to conclusions that we had never seen or read. That's

13 how it was. And then we went on to continue our work. We did not vote on

14 any decisions, but at someone's proposal, I think it was the president's,

15 we decided to give legitimacy to the decisions of the crisis staff. And

16 that is what was done. But no vote was taken.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I ask Mr. Ackerman to put up the

18 full translation that he has got because it's not a translation that --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, the full translation of what?

20 MS. KORNER: The document. You've got one line from it. In the

21 document that's both P08 and P194, it reads: "The legitimacy of the

22 decisions of the Autonomous Region Crisis Staff are affirmed." So I don't

23 know what you've got. It looks like it's your own translation.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: It's not. It's an official translation. You can

25 see the word right up there. That's what CLSS puts on a document when it

Page 22550

1 translates.

2 MS. KORNER: I know. I'm sorry to tell you, wherever you got it,

3 it's not Exhibit P208 and it's not P914 because they are identical.

4 Your Honour, I don't know if it matters much, but it would -- it

5 seems appropriate. I don't know what Your Honours have got, but it's

6 slightly different wording and it may be important.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I have 208 in front of me here. I have 208 in front

8 of me, and it basically corresponds to what we have on the ELMO.

9 "The Crisis Staff reached the following decision" and what we saw before

10 as decision number 1. The legitimacy of the decisions are affirmed. And

11 then there are another 17 --

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour, that's the whole point.

13 Mr. Ackerman's translation says something slightly different. We had it

14 revised. I can't remember why. I think there was a quarrel by the

15 wording.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I have "the legitimacy of the decisions of the

17 Autonomous Region Crisis Staff are affirmed."

18 MS. KORNER: Correct. That's not what Mr. Ackerman has got. He's

19 got it slightly different. He's got it "legitimacy is rendered." He's not

20 quite the same thing. It refers -- there's a difference

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I've now put the actual language from

22 the original on the screen. We could have the translator translate that

23 for us.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no. We've had this -- in the exhibit we

25 had it revised. There's a revised translation done by CLSS. We can't go

Page 22551

1 on getting new trans -- I don't know what Mr. Ackerman's is, but it's not

2 the one that's in the binders. There is a difference.

3 Your Honour, it was revised, and that's why maybe why -- it was

4 revised on the 23rd of January of this month -- of this year. Sorry. I

5 think because it was used by somebody else, and there was -- so that is

6 the translation. And as I say, it may not matter a great deal, but

7 there's a difference in how it's being put.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, the true evidence in the case, Your Honour,

9 is what it says in B/C/S. And if it says what that new translation says,

10 then fine. If it doesn't, we ought to know that. And that's why --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Which P208 were you cutting and pasting from?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I wasn't cutting and pasting from anything. I've

13 got the full P208 document here. It says "translation" in the upper

14 right-hand corner. It was done by CLSS. It's just different from the one

15 that Ms. Korner has.

16 MS. KORNER: Different from the one that's an exhibit which the

17 Judges have and which the Court have.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: What is the ERN number of the document that you

19 have, Mr. Ackerman?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: It doesn't appear to have an ERN number.

21 MS. KORNER: Right.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Because what I have is 00918141.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, that was the original one which is

24 still -- the line -- the first line is still the same, "the legitimacy of

25 the decisions of the Autonomous Region Crisis Staff are affirmed." That's

Page 22552

1 exactly the same. But there is a revised version which was 03076840. But

2 Your Honour, the line in that paragraph 1 is the same in the original that

3 Your Honours have, 00918141 and the revised version. Mr. Ackerman's

4 doesn't have an ERN. I don't think it's an authorised translation, or at

5 least it's not one done by us.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, probably the best thing to do, Your Honour,

7 is pay attention to the revised translation because it's more likely that

8 it's accurate.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Just precisely what I was going to suggest to you,

10 Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: The next part I want the witness to refer to is

12 paragraph 10. I don't know whether the revision --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I was checking it actually. It seems to me it seems

14 to be the same except that what you have on the screen here, on the

15 monitor, is underlined, and it was not underlined in the original B/C/S.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's the same.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but it is the same. The wording is the same.

18 It's only the underlining which is different.

19 MS. KORNER: I don't know where the underlining comes from.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know why it should have been underlined in

21 the first place because there is no underlining in the original.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I think if I remember properly what we're talking

23 about is all my fault. I think I objected to the document having this

24 underlining if it was not in the original, and that's why it got

25 retranslated and resubmitted. I'm not sure.

Page 22553

1 MS. KORNER: That's not right.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: But I recall objecting to some underlining at some

3 point that was not in the original.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, Mr. Ackerman. I have no explanation

5 for anything because I don't have the P208 that you have put on the ELMO.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the only reason it was revised was

7 because one of the names in the original was wrong in paragraph 15.

8 Originally it said: "Zeljko Savovic," and it should have read "Zeljko

9 Bakovic", it looks like. But I don't see any reason or sense for

10 revision.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's probably the reverse. Because what I have in

12 this document is Zeljko Savovic.

13 MS. KORNER: That's probably because Your Honour's still got the

14 unrevised version. That's why. That's the reason why it was revised.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, let's proceed, let's not waste more time on

16 this.


18 Q. Sir, I want to look at paragraph 10. "The relationship of the

19 military authorities to the civilian authorities should be such that the

20 military will execute the orders of the civilian authorities while the

21 civilian authorities will not interfere with the way these orders are

22 carried out."

23 Is that the way it worked in Kljuc, that the military authorities

24 carried out orders from the civilian authorities?

25 A. It is requested hereby for the military authorities, that is for

Page 22554

1 the military command, because there was no military authorities as such,

2 to function according to the decisions of the civilian authorities. What

3 is meant here is primarily to -- the top of the civilian authorities in

4 the then Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I believe that there

5 was the Defence council, and also what is meant here are the conclusions

6 of the People's Assembly.

7 The second part of this paragraph says that the civilian

8 authorities will not interfere with the execution of these orders, that

9 is, of the execution of these obligations. What is meant here is that the

10 local civilian authorities cannot and will not interfere with that because

11 there is no enactment that would give power to the civilian authorities,

12 the local civilian authorities to be in command of the military

13 authorities.

14 Q. I really need to ask you the question again. My question is after

15 this point, did the local civilian authorities give orders to the military

16 that the military then carried out? I think you can answer that either

17 yes or no.

18 A. No, the civilian authorities did not issue any orders to the army.

19 The local civilian authorities did not issue orders to the army. The army

20 had a hierarchy, and the chain of command, and it acted according to the

21 rules of that chain of command.

22 Q. If you look now at the very end of the document, is there any

23 signature at the end of this document?

24 A. No, I can't see a signature at the end of the document.

25 Q. Is that significant, or is it insignificant?

Page 22555

1 A. I can't give you the right answer to this question because this

2 was a long time ago. However, there is an interesting thing in this

3 document that I didn't notice at first. One part of the document is in

4 the Latinic script, and the other is in the Cyrillic script, which is not

5 what happened when minutes were taken. I'm talking about the original of

6 this document. I would even say that this is not the same handwriting.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think that Mr. Ackerman ought to

8 allow Mr. Kalabic to go down this track. He's well aware of the evidence

9 about this document that we've heard.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I think we've -- I think I've asked all the

12 questions I need to ask about --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.


15 Q. The next question I want to ask you is do you know about the

16 events that occurred at the school in Velagici about this time?

17 A. At one of the meetings in the municipal assembly during the

18 evening hours, together with all the other persons who were present, I was

19 given information about those events. And the information was as follows:

20 A group of people were incarcerated in the old school. Their arms had

21 been seized. And the military command or the commander of the army in

22 that region assigned people to guard the prisoners. Colonel Galic, who

23 was sitting at the meeting in the assembly, asked the director of the

24 local transport company to send two buses to fetch these people and for

25 these people to be transported to the barracks in the vicinity of

Page 22556

1 Banja Luka. The name of the barracks was Dobrinja, and it still stands

2 there in the same place.

3 The buses were indeed sent. After a certain period of time, a

4 driver returned, entered the municipality building, the room where we were

5 all sitting, and informed us that these people -- that something had

6 happened to them and that there was nobody to transport. Colonel Galic

7 jumped to his feet. He was astonished. He was out of his wits, and

8 that's the way I saw it. He couldn't believe that something like that

9 could happen. How many people were --

10 Q. Excuse me, just a minute. When you say "something had happened to

11 them," was it made clear that they had been killed?

12 A. Yes, it was made clear by the driver that there was nobody alive

13 there, and there was nobody to transport to Dobrinja.

14 Q. And now tell the Chamber about Colonel Galic's reaction and what,

15 if anything, he might have said.

16 A. Colonel Galic was extremely surprised, astonished, he couldn't

17 believe that something like that could happen. He was so shattered. I

18 didn't know him for a long time, but I had never seem him in such a state

19 before. He said that the military command would take legal measures

20 against the perpetrators of that.

21 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether that actually happened or

22 not, whether any legal measures were taken?

23 A. I really don't know anything about that. I don't know the details

24 because I never heard it from anybody. The only thing I know is that

25 people had been killed. This is what I heard. This is what I knew.

Page 22557

1 According to my information, the people who did that were arrested and

2 taken to military court. Their statements were taken there. What

3 happened next, I really don't know. I don't have any information on that.

4 Q. All right.

5 There was -- apparently after these events happened, the crisis

6 staff started meeting very frequently. I'd like you to look now at P196.

7 It's your tab 18. This is the next day, on the 28th, another crisis staff

8 meeting.

9 Now, in this meeting, there were some more -- some orders entered

10 by the crisis staff. The first order had to do with surrendering weapons

11 that are procured illegally, that they should be surrendered between 1200

12 and 1400 hours on that date at the public security station or nearest

13 police station.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just in case -- so it's clear for the

15 record, the massacre at Velagici took place on the 1st of June, and we're

16 now going backwards. So this has nothing to do with the massacre at

17 Velagici.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: That's absolutely correct. It has to do with some

20 other things.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


23 Q. In the second one: "The Kljuc Municipality Crisis Staff hereby

24 orders Muslims from the Ramici and Krasulje area to deliver the

25 perpetrators of yesterday's crimes against the deputy commander of the

Page 22558

1 police station."

2 Number 3: "The Crisis Staff hereby requests the Muslims of Ramici

3 and Krasulje to hand over the body of the policeman who was killed. "

4 Number 4: "Similarly Muslims from Grlica and Pudin Han are hereby

5 ordered to surrender the perpetrators of the crime against the convoy of

6 unarmed soldiers that was being transported in an organised fashion from

7 Knin to Banja Luka. "

8 It requests the surrender of the commander of the Territorial

9 Defence and Green Berets Omer Filipovic to the legal military forces of

10 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 It says: "All members of the armed forces from Kljuc and

12 Beli Orlovi who have returned from the Kupres front are hereby ordered to

13 place themselves under the command of the 30th division crossed out, Kljuc

14 operations group to carry out tasks in the Kljuc Municipality."

15 And then finally: "Citizens are requested to remain calm, to

16 undertake nothing by themselves, and to respect the orders given. If not,

17 very thorough measures will be taken against citizens who do not adhere to

18 these provisions."

19 The question I have regarding this is, first of all, were you

20 present at this meeting?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. And second of all, what was it the crisis staff was trying to

23 accomplish the day after these events in the Pudin Han area? What were

24 you trying to do?

25 A. The crisis staff tried to prevent the escalation of these negative

Page 22559

1 events. And that is exactly what it says in that order. The crisis staff

2 thought that this could be achieved by disarming the armed forces of

3 Omer Filipovic. This would mean that these arms would no longer be used

4 for military purposes. Further on, the crisis staff wanted the

5 perpetrators of this killing of the policemen and the young soldiers to

6 surrender. Further on, the crisis staff wanted to -- wanted for

7 Omer Filipovic to surrender. He was the commander of the so-called

8 Territorial Defence and the White Eagles. They wanted to talk to him, and

9 they believed that he would be the person who would be able to stop any

10 further possible escalation of violence in the same manner that he had

11 organised them in the first place. Further on, it was noticed that in

12 Kljuc, all of a sudden, a lot of uniformed people arrived, and the crisis

13 staff thought that it would be normal and that it would be good for all

14 the military groups to be placed under the command of the regular army

15 because it was the only way to prevent incidents, future incidents.

16 A number of groups of people in uniforms appeared in Kljuc, and

17 they were not under the command of the regular army. And they arrived

18 only to plunder, not only in Kljuc, but all over Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 There were such groups all over Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they --

20 wherever there was a conflict situation, they would go to plunder and rob.

21 The crisis staff wanted to prevent such incidents, and that's why it asked

22 for all the existing group to be placed under the command of the regular

23 army.

24 When it comes to civilians, the population of Kljuc Municipality

25 were -- was frightened. Nobody was safe. And nobody could guarantee

Page 22560

1 anybody's safety in those turbulent times. That's why it was asked from

2 everybody to stay calm, not to panic, not to undertake any measures on

3 their own, to stay in their homes and to wait for further developments.

4 This, to my mind, is the essence of the orders of the crisis staff which

5 followed the two incidents in Pudin Han and in Velagici.

6 Q. You talked about these groups that after the 27th showed up in

7 Kljuc and engaged in looting and things of that nature. Who were they?

8 Do you know? Under whose control were they? Who were they? Where were

9 they from?

10 A. Those people were unknown to us. They would be passing through

11 the town. And I didn't know most of them. At first, I thought they were

12 members of the regular army. And only later on did we realise that in

13 addition to the regular army that was under the military command, that was

14 located in certain places, there were also some unknown groups. Neither I

15 nor anybody else knew who these people were, but we assumed that those

16 people were prepared to do anything and that they just looked for the

17 situations that would present [Realtime transcript read in error

18 "prevent"] themselves as an opportunity for them to do whatever they

19 wanted to do.

20 Q. Okay. We just looked at a meeting of 28 May. The next date we're

21 going to go to is 30 May, and it's Exhibit P934. And in your tab, it's

22 tab 19. And this says: "The Kljuc defence command and the Kljuc

23 Municipality Crisis Staff hereby issue the following order." And before

24 we go through some of this order, how were orders like this communicated

25 to the citizens of Kljuc Municipality? How did anybody find out what was

Page 22561

1 being ordered?

2 A. Such orders or positions or whatever you want to call them issued

3 by the crisis staff were mostly communicated to the people via the local

4 radio station.

5 Q. All right. Let's look at the first paragraph, then, of this

6 order. "The command staff of the so-called Territorial Defence of the

7 Muslim forces of Krasulje led by Mirzet Zukanovic, Atif Dedic, Suad Medic,

8 and Resa Omerovic are hereby called upon to report to the Kljuc defence

9 forces command."

10 Second: "All Muslim forced under this command are ordered to

11 surrender their weapons of they wish to avoid more serious consequences."

12 Third: "The two civilians captured are hereby ordered to be

13 returned."

14 Do you know anything about that?

15 A. I can't remember anything about the two civilians mentioned under

16 number 3. So I can't comment on item 3.

17 Q. Okay, can we stop just a minute.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, line 23, page 64, what he said there

19 was "look for situations that would present themselves as an opportunity

20 for them to do whatever they wanted to do" not "prevent," but "present."

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.


23 Q. Let's go over now to the final one of those orders, which is on --

24 "regarding last night's announcement regarding surrender of weapons in the

25 villages of Velecevo, Dubocanin, and Zgonjanin, further clarification has

Page 22562

1 been issued as follows: Prominent citizens from these villages should

2 telephone the public security station to discuss and commence the actual

3 implementation of the surrender of illegally procured weapons."

4 The first thing about this meeting is this a meeting you attended

5 or not?

6 A. I can't remember whether I attended this meeting or not. But even

7 if I wasn't at the following meeting, I was informed about this order.

8 Q. And again, what is the crisis staff and the Defence command trying

9 to accomplish with this order? What are their goals here?

10 A. The goal of the command staff of Kljuc and the crisis staff was to

11 primarily have the leaders of these group to surrender, to have the arms

12 in the possession of Omer Filipovic's group handed over. All this in

13 order to prevent an escalation of these events. In the fourth paragraph,

14 the crisis staff and the defence of Kljuc want to see that Velecevo,

15 Dubocanin, and Zgon, which up to then had not been included into Omer's

16 units, Omer's army, to remain neutral. And if someone from these villages

17 had weapon, it was appealed for the surrender of these weapons through

18 prominent citizens so as to prevent these weapons from being used for some

19 other purposes. The essence of this order is to stop this conflict

20 situation, to stop war operations.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: All right, we're going to make a big leap to June now

22 right after we come back from our next break.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Kalabic, we are going to have a break of 25

24 minutes. Thank you.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

Page 22563

1 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, you may proceed.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. All right, sir, we're now going to tab 20 in your book. It's

5 Exhibit P974. And this is a document of 23 June 1992. It says it is

6 responding to a letter from the Kljuc Municipal Assembly dated 18 June

7 1992. And it's sending a list of the managerial and executive staff of

8 Muslims and Croatian nationality holding positions of foreman and higher

9 in the Kljuc Sip Forestry and Timber Enterprise in the town of Kljuc. Is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes. That's correct.

12 Q. All right. What I'd like you to do, because I think you're

13 familiar with Sip there, is just look through this list and tell us if

14 there are people there who were not dismissed from jobs, who continued

15 working at Sip, and if there are any who are even working there still

16 today. And just tell us where you are as you work through here.

17 A. In the Municipality of Kljuc, nobody ever dismissed anyone from

18 their job. On the 27th of May 1992, most of the employees of Muslim

19 ethnicity did not show up for work. So they did this of their own free

20 will or upon the suggestion of some of the political leaders from the

21 Muslim bloc.

22 After the 27th of May, several days went by. I can't remember now

23 whether it was ten days or so, and nobody came to work, whether they were

24 Serb or whether they belonged to another ethnic group. After this, when

25 work started again and people were summoned to come to work in Sip, as you

Page 22564

1 can see from this list, both employees from the joint services showed up

2 for work. After some time, it may have been a fortnight or more, probably

3 because the overall events in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in Kljuc

4 escalated in a bad direction, they resigned, or rather they said

5 "thank you" to the director and they went home and they did not come to

6 work again. Of the Croats, under number 3, the last list of 12 people,

7 Mile Belajic, he was an ethnic Croat, and he was a lawyer in this plant.

8 He remained at his workplace until he retired, which was just before the

9 end of the war, or rather during the second half of the war. Nobody fired

10 him.

11 There are some other people on these lists who reported for work

12 for a while, and then left. They moved away from Kljuc or they remained

13 in Kljuc until the end of war and are still there. The end of war, that

14 is. At the bottom, you can see Amir Mirsic. She didn't leave. Those are

15 people I know. I've already mentioned Balagic. Besim Pudic didn't leave

16 Kljuc. He stayed behind. This is what I know about this.

17 Q. All right. The next document I'm interested in now is P996, and

18 it's at tab 22 in your book. This is a meeting of the municipal board of

19 the SDS of Kljuc on 14 July 1992. And I'd like you to look for the page

20 that has the numbers at the top ending in 4139. It's an eight-digit

21 number, and it ends in 4139.

22 It should be kind of up in the upper right-hand corner, 4139. And

23 if my reading of Cyrillic script is accurate, what you should see there is

24 a quote from Veljko Kondic where he says in this meeting on the 14th of

25 July: "I think that in the crisis staff we made many quality and good

Page 22565

1 decisions, but they weren't implemented well. We have no influence on the

2 command and the army. The staff commander and chief were named with no

3 influence from SDS."

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was that true?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 Q. And he's speaking of the crisis staff in the past tense. Did the

9 crisis staff -- was the crisis staff disbanded by this time? Did it no

10 longer exist at this point?

11 A. I can't remember that. I can't remember when it was disbanded.

12 Q. All right.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don' want this to be -- it was a war

14 presidency. There are a number of documents.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


17 Q. Let's go to P1004, please, and that's at your tab 23. And this is

18 a session of the War Presidency of Kljuc of 28 July 1992. And you'll

19 notice that you are shown as being present at that meeting.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I'm interested in the paragraph, and it should be highlighted

22 in your copy, "at the end, it was concluded that a meeting with the

23 Government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and the army should be

24 prepared and organised. The date of the meeting is the responsibility of

25 Colonel Vujinovic. Also a meeting with the Krajina Corps should be

Page 22566

1 organised."

2 Now, it says "a meeting with the Government of the Autonomous

3 Region of Krajina" not with the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of

4 Krajina. Do you know why? And if you don't, that's fine. If you do,

5 tell us.

6 A. I think at the time the Government of the Autonomous Region of

7 Krajina existed, but I think Mr. Vujinovic suggested such a meeting

8 because on the territory of Kljuc Municipality and in other areas, there

9 were enormous problems with the power supply. And at the request of

10 people from Kljuc to have this problem solved, Mr. Vujinovic saw a

11 possibility of solving it through contacts with the Government of the AR

12 Krajina and the army.

13 Q. All right. I'm finished with that document.

14 What kind of impact during its existence did the ARK Crisis Staff

15 have on the Kljuc Municipality?

16 A. The Crisis Staff of the ARK Krajina had no impact on Kljuc

17 Municipality.

18 Q. What kind of impact did Radoslav Brdjanin have on Kljuc

19 Municipality during these times we have been talking about?

20 A. Mr. Brdjanin did not have any impact on the people in Kljuc

21 Municipality either. He never asked me or demanded of me that something

22 that was agreed on at a meeting somewhere should be implemented in Kljuc.

23 And during that time, and later, he never visited the Municipality of

24 Kljuc, nor did any of the officials of Kljuc Municipality ask for such a

25 visit.

Page 22567

1 Q. Did anything happen in the Kljuc Municipality because of

2 directions from the ARK Crisis Staff or because of directions or

3 instructions from Mr. Brdjanin?

4 A. No. Everything that happened in Kljuc, none of it was as a

5 consequence of a request or an action by Mr. Brdjanin.

6 Q. Now, we all know that some bad things happened in Kljuc. Could

7 Mr. Brdjanin or the ARK Crisis Staff have prevented those things from

8 happening?

9 A. Mr. Brdjanin could not have prevented anything that happened in

10 Kljuc itself. Because after the 27th of May 1992, and those events, of

11 course he could not influence those. And later developments occurred

12 spontaneously and were often beyond the control of those who made efforts

13 to keep them under control. So his influence there was nonexistent.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Thank you very much, sir. I have no

15 further questions.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

17 You are now going to be cross-examined, as I explained earlier to

18 you, you're going to be cross-examined by Madam Korner. Thank you.

19 Cross-examined by Ms. Korner:

20 Q. I'm just going to start with that very last comment you made.

21 Could you have please look at Exhibit P1010. And I will hand you rather

22 than having to look for it the B/C/S copy that I have marked already.

23 We're going to have to put the English on the ELMO. So actually when

24 we've given it to -- we can use my copy again, I suppose. Oh, we already

25 have.

Page 22568

1 Right. That's a report on the work of the crisis staff

2 (war presidency) of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly in the period since the

3 the 15th of May 1992. Is that right, Mr. Kalabic? Mr. Kalabic, is that

4 right?

5 A. I haven't read this document, but if that's the material in here,

6 then, yes, it is.

7 Q. So you weren't asked to look at this yesterday by Mr. Ackerman or

8 at any stage before this?

9 A. No, what I said was if this report exists in this batch of

10 materials, then I have seen it. If it doesn't, well, I would have to read

11 through it in order to say that this is it.

12 Q. All right. Well, can you -- Mr. Kalabic, can you confirm that

13 when the crisis staffs in the municipalities or war presidencies were

14 wound up, reports had to be prepared on how they had operated?

15 A. The crisis staffs did not issue reports to anyone about how they

16 had operated. They did not submit reports to a higher organ. I don't

17 know who you mean.

18 Q. I mean a higher organ, either the regional or probably a bit later

19 by then, September, the Government of the Serbian Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. No. At that time, the crisis staff did not issue any reports to

22 any higher organ except that certain of its positions, conclusions, or

23 orders were published or broadcast on the local radio station.

24 Q. And in order for the decisions made by the crisis staff to be made

25 retrospectively legal, they had to be verified by the municipal assembly,

Page 22569

1 didn't they?

2 A. At that time, while the conflicts were going on, I can't tell you

3 exactly how long it was, the crisis staff took over the role of the

4 municipal assembly because the municipal assembly could not meet.

5 However, at a later date, the crisis staff had to have all its decisions

6 verified by the municipal assembly.

7 Q. All right. Mr. Kalabic, I understand that you're very anxious to

8 leave tomorrow and not to have to come back. In order for you to be able

9 to do that, you will have to listen carefully to the question and just

10 answer the question. You did, in fact, at the end, the answer to my

11 question was yes, it had to be verified.

12 Now, in order for them to verify the decisions, did the municipal

13 assembly have to be given a report?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Just answer yes or no, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand the question.


17 Q. In order for the municipal assembly to be able to understand how

18 the decisions which were to be verified had been arrived at, was a report

19 given to the municipal assembly?

20 A. All reports of the crisis staff of Kljuc Municipality were handed

21 over together in a bundle to the assembly at a later date. And then they

22 were considered and analysed by the assembly, and decisions were made

23 about the validity of these decisions.

24 Q. All right. Well, we've spent a long time, and I want to ask you

25 about one small point. In the B/C/S, could you turn to the -- it will be

Page 22570

1 about -- I'm sorry, you've now got my copy, of course, so I can't see it.

2 Can I have it back for a moment.

3 Turn to this paragraph, please. The usher will show you. And the

4 English, it's on page 4 at the bottom of the page. You told us a minute

5 ago that the regional crisis staff had absolutely no effect on Kljuc.

6 Does this paragraph begin: "At every meeting, the crisis staff

7 (war presidency) of the municipal assembly considered the conclusions of

8 the Banja Luka regional Crisis Staff which were binding as regards all

9 issues connected with life and work in the municipality"?

10 A. This referred to economic issues which I have already mentioned.

11 Q. Why were only economic issues binding?

12 A. When the crisis staff was set up, our influence could not extend

13 beyond Kljuc, and that's how we behaved.

14 Q. No. Please listen to the question, Mr. Kalabic. Why should

15 decisions of the regional crisis staff be binding only for economic

16 matters?

17 A. The decisions of the crisis staff, the regional crisis staff, if

18 they existed, did not reach us in Kljuc, and we did not implement them

19 because, as I've already said, we tried to preserve peace, and we managed

20 to do this until the 27th of May when there was an attack.

21 Q. Let's not get off the topic. I'm not asking you about preserving

22 peace. I'm asking you why this report says that at every meeting, you

23 considered the conclusions of the Banja Luka regional crisis staff when

24 you now tell us you didn't get any?

25 A. Somebody drew up a report to this effect, but we didn't have the

Page 22571

1 reports of the crisis staff, and we did not consider them as is stated

2 here.

3 Q. All right. I'm going to suggest, Mr. Kalabic, that you're not

4 actually telling us the truth about that for reasons that I will show you.

5 Can I have the report back. We'll have to come back to it later.

6 Now, I want to go back, please, to the beginning. Can you tell

7 us, please -- I'm going to jump ahead for a moment. Can you tell us, who

8 was the president of the executive board in 1993 in Kljuc? Was that you?

9 A. In 1993, the president of the executive board in Kljuc was

10 Djuro Tomic.

11 Q. Were you ever the president of the executive board in Kljuc?

12 A. From May 1994, I was.

13 Q. All right. Now, apart from being a member of the Assembly of,

14 first of all, Bosnia and Herzegovina and then the Serbian Republic, you

15 were also, were you not, a member of the Assembly of the Autonomous

16 Region?

17 A. Yes, I was. I was an assemblyman in the ARK assembly.

18 Q. From the beginning?

19 A. Yes, from the beginning.

20 Q. Even though Kljuc had not actually joined the Bosnian Krajina --

21 the association of Bosnian Krajina Municipalities?

22 A. When I say "the beginning," I mean to say the date when the Kljuc

23 Municipal Assembly reached the decision on joining the region.

24 Q. Well, weren't you, in fact, a member or a delegate to the original

25 association of municipalities?

Page 22572

1 A. I don't understand the question.

2 Q. When the association of Bosnian Krajina Municipalities was formed

3 in April 1991, were you not then a delegate?

4 A. No, I wasn't. I don't remember that. From the time of the

5 decision, I became a deputy with a group of people from Kljuc in the

6 autonomous region.

7 Q. Well, the decision to actually join the Autonomous Region of

8 Krajina was not taken until 1992, was it? An attempt was made in 1991

9 which failed.

10 A. I don't remember the exact date when the decision was taken. But

11 I think it was in late 1991 that the Kljuc Municipal Assembly selected the

12 members and adopted the decision on joining, and that then it took a few

13 months for this to take effect. There were problems during that time.

14 Q. Well, in actual fact, what happened was, wasn't it, and I don't

15 want to take you through all the documents, following Mr. Ackerman, was

16 that you made an attempt in 1991 to get it passed -- a decision passed

17 through the Kljuc Assembly, but the Bosniaks and other parties objected

18 and it wasn't passed? Do you agree with that?

19 A. No, on the contrary. This was passed, and at the assembly session

20 of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly, members from the Serbian and Muslim

21 ethnic groups were selected to become members of the regional assembly.

22 Q. And along with you, the other delegates to the autonomous region

23 were Veljko Kondic. Do you agree?

24 A. Yes, Veljko Kondic was one of them.

25 Q. Dragan Smiljanic?

Page 22573

1 A. I think he was.

2 Q. Jovo Banjac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And Mirko Dejanovic?

5 A. No, not Mirko Dejanovic?

6 Q. Are you saying that he never was a member of the assembly?

7 A. I think there's no such man. I don't remember him.

8 Q. No, I think it's my pronunciation.

9 A. I don't remember him by that name.

10 Q. Dejanovic.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, you attended the assembly meetings regularly, didn't you?

13 A. No, I didn't attend them regularly.

14 Q. Did you attend the meeting held on the 26th of October, which was

15 after the big rally in Banja Luka, attended by Dr. Karadzic and other

16 members of the leadership of the SDS?

17 A. I don't remember the date, but if I were to look at the document,

18 I would probably be able to recall this.

19 Q. I'll show you the document if you insist tomorrow. But that same

20 day, there was a meeting, wasn't there, with Dr. Karadzic and the

21 presidents of the municipalities?

22 A. I wasn't the president of the municipality, so I can't tell you

23 right now whether such a meeting was held or not.

24 Q. As a delegate to both the BiH Assembly, the ARK Assembly, and as

25 someone who was connected with the Kljuc municipality, would you not have

Page 22574

1 attended such a meeting?

2 A. If this was a meeting of presidents of municipalities, there was

3 probably no reason for others to attend. The meeting would probably have

4 been too large.

5 Q. All right. Because it was as a result of that meeting that that

6 telex, Exhibit 22 which you were shown earlier today, was sent, wasn't it,

7 by Mr. Brdjanin? Mr. Kalabic?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object, he's being asked if --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: He's being asked if a result of a meeting which he

12 says he didn't attend was that a telex was sent. How can he answer that?

13 He said he didn't attend.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the objection is well founded, Mr. Ackerman.

15 I mean, you have every right to show the witness any document that relates

16 to those two meetings that you have referred and ask him whether he could

17 remember anything on the basis of the contents. And then I would allow

18 the third question. But otherwise --

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I believe --

20 Q. Are you actually telling this Court, Mr. Kalabic, that you never

21 saw or heard of this telex bearing Mr. Brdjanin's name at any time?

22 A. I saw the telex yesterday.

23 Q. Right. Before yesterday, in 1992 -- I'm sorry, 1991?

24 A. Before that, before yesterday, I never saw this telex.

25 Q. What did you think that -- when the SDA and the MBO called this

Page 22575

1 meeting and talked about an intercepted telex, what did you think they

2 were talking about?

3 A. I didn't think anything because I didn't know anything about this

4 meeting, and I could not think anything if I didn't know that something

5 was going on and that a document was mentioned.

6 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Kalabic. They held a public meeting and made a

7 public announcement that they had intercepted this telex which effectively

8 was -- I better get the document back again. I've forgotten the number.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 22.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm just getting it back again. I

11 didn't -- yes. No, that's the telex, Your Honour. It's the document

12 about the meeting at the MBO.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I see, all right. It's 90.

14 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm afraid I

15 wasn't -- I didn't have it with me. I don't think it can be 90, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It says: "In the last few days,

18 representatives of the authorities in the Municipality of Kljuc were

19 elected from the ranks of the SDS, have received instructions in the form

20 of an SDS order signed by Radoslav Brdjanin."

21 MS. KORNER: That's it. It has got two numbers, Your Honour.

22 That's why I didn't see it. Absolutely.

23 Q. They issued an official statement, please, Mr. Kalabic. Now, are

24 you saying that you were wholly unaware of that?

25 A. The official information that I have in front of me was never made

Page 22576

1 public on either the local radio station or in any other type of media. I

2 did not have an opportunity to gain access to it in any other way. So I

3 believe that this was known only in the Muslim bloc circles. Maybe it is

4 because of that that you think it was a public document.

5 Q. I see. So the fact that it says "official statement," and it

6 complains about what Mr. Karadzic and the SDS are doing, you don't think

7 that anybody in the SDS ever found out about this complaint. Is that what

8 you're really telling us?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to that. What he said was

10 that he didn't know anything about it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's perfectly legitimate to ask him whether on the

12 same score he believes that no one else knew about it.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he says that in terms. It was only

14 known in Muslim bloc circles.

15 Q. Mr. Kalabic, is that what you're really telling this Court?

16 A. The official information such as I see here was never made public,

17 and I do believe that it was retained within the circle of the

18 Muslim/Bosniak bloc.

19 Q. All right. Now, did you attend a number of meetings of the

20 Assembly of the Serbian Republic in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And you told us that you got -- you saw a copy of the instructions

23 for the organisation of the Serbian people in Sarajevo.

24 A. Yes, I did say that I saw this instruction in Sarajevo.

25 Q. It was given, was it not, to representatives in the assembly to

Page 22577

1 take back to their own municipalities?

2 A. No, it wasn't given to representatives in the assembly; it was

3 given to representatives of the Serbian Democratic Party, and they were

4 the ones who brought these instructions to their respective

5 municipalities.

6 Q. All right. You were shown the document where it was discussed in

7 Kljuc on the 21st of December which was -- whatever it was. Yes, it was

8 Exhibit P865.

9 Can you just confirm that these minutes were taken by Mr. Bajic,

10 who was the secretary? Do you recognise his writing, Mr. Kalabic?

11 A. First, I have to find the document in order to be able to tell you

12 that.

13 Q. Well, don't worry, I've only got five more minutes, and therefore

14 we won't worry about that.

15 Did you also attend the meeting in Sarajevo - don't worry about

16 the document, Mr. Kalabic - where Mr. Karadzic instructed members of the

17 SDS that the second stage should be implemented?

18 A. I don't remember having attended such a meeting.

19 Q. All right. Do you remember staying in the Holiday Inn?

20 Mr. Kalabic, you needn't look for a document. I'm asking whether you

21 recall staying in the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo.

22 A. I very rarely stayed at the Holiday Inn. It may have been two or

23 three times, although representatives were given that possibility, that

24 is, to stay there every time they attended meetings. I personally stayed

25 there only two or three times, but I don't remember when that was.

Page 22578

1 Q. All right. Well, we may come back to that tomorrow.

2 When were you first asked to give evidence in this case,

3 Mr. Kalabic?

4 A. I don't remember exactly. But I believe that it was some year

5 ago.

6 Q. About a year ago. Who did you speak to? Was it Mr. Ackerman?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was it Ms. Maglov?

9 A. I can't remember the name of the person. If I were to see him, I

10 would recognise him, I'm sure.

11 Q. So it wasn't Mr. Trbojevic, who you do know presumably, Milan

12 Trbojevic?

13 A. No, it wasn't him. And no, I don't know him.

14 Q. All right. You don't know him? You don't know the minister of

15 justice for the Republika Srpska, or the ex-minister of justice for the

16 Republika Srpska?

17 A. Maglov? I'm not familiar with that name.

18 Q. No, Mr. Trbojevic.

19 A. Trbojevic? No. I can't remember the last name of the person, and

20 there's really no reason for me to say that if I knew him.

21 Q. All right. Were you asked to make a statement at that stage?

22 A. There was an interview, and I can't remember whether I was asked

23 to give a statement. But yes, I was interviewed about my possible

24 appearance before this Tribunal if I was asked to do so by the Defence.

25 Q. All right. So somebody was asking you questions and making a note

Page 22579

1 of what you said. Is that the way you remember it?

2 A. I don't remember whether he took any notes or not. But we talked

3 about more or less the same things that we are talking about today.

4 Q. And was one of the documents that you were asked about or one of

5 the things the document that was the instructions about setting up crisis

6 staffs in the municipalities?

7 A. I can't remember whether that was discussed, whether any such

8 documents were discussed.

9 Q. Were you shown any documents and asked for your comments?

10 A. I believe that I was shown a document with the names of the people

11 who were members of the crisis staff in Kljuc Municipality. I believe

12 that I was shown that document.

13 Q. All right. Final question: Were you shown one, just that one

14 document, or more documents?

15 A. I don't remember whether there were more than one document. I

16 remember this particular one because we were talking about where these

17 people are, how can one reach them, the people who were on that list, and

18 whether they would be prepared to testify.

19 Q. All right. Finally, then, if you had been shown that document,

20 that is to say the instructions that you got in December 1991, would your

21 answer about that document have been any different than it was today?

22 A. I told you the truth today. So I am sure I would have told you

23 the same thing then.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

Page 22580

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Kalabic, we have to stop here for today. You

2 will now be escorted out of this courtroom. Please take a rest. And you

3 will return here tomorrow morning at 9.00. We start again. And

4 hopefully if you keep your answers to as concise a manner as possible,

5 then you should be out of this place tomorrow for good. Thank you.

6 Good afternoon, everyone. Madam, you can escort the

7 witness --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there anything to raise before we -- okay, so we

10 stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

12 To be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

13 November, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.