Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23206

1 Friday, 5 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's bring the accused in.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin is in.

7 Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

9 This is the Case Number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus

10 Radoslav Brdjanin.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you follow

12 the proceedings in a language that you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

14 can.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat. Appearances for

16 the Prosecution.

17 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Julian Nicholls, assisted by

18 Denise Gustin, case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Ms. Korner, and to your

20 colleagues.

21 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honours. David Cunningham

23 with Aleksandar Vujic.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Vujic.

25 My apologies on behalf of the Trial Chamber for starting late.

Page 23207

1 Something happened, and we just couldn't start earlier. My apologies

2 again.

3 Preliminaries? So could we have the witness in, please. Thank

4 you.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Dejanovic.

7 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome once more.

9 THE WITNESS: Welcome.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to proceed straight away with the

11 cross-examination, which we started yesterday. May I just remind you

12 that -- of the solemn declaration that you made yesterday. That applies

13 also for today.

14 Ms. Korner, please.


16 [Witness answered through interpretation]

17 Cross-examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

18 Q. Mr. Dejanovic, I want to ask you one further question in relation

19 to Mr. Brdjanin. You told Mr. Cunningham yesterday that Mr. Brdjanin was

20 not a powerful man. He was a man without power. Do you still wish to

21 adhere to that answer, stick to that answer?

22 A. Yes.

23 [In English] Yes, excuse me.

24 Q. He was, during the relevant period, was he not, that is between,

25 say, August of 1991 and the end of 1992, first of all a deputy to the

Page 23208

1 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

2 A. For me, still it doesn't meaning that he was a powerful man.

3 Q. All right. Do you agree he was a deputy?

4 A. Yeah, I agree.

5 Q. Do you agree that he was the vice-president, first of all, of the

6 Assembly of the Autonomous Region?

7 A. I don't remember that. Probably he was.

8 Q. Do you agree that he became the president of the Crisis Staff of

9 the Autonomous Region?

10 A. I agree.

11 Q. Do you agree that he subsequently became a minister in the

12 government of Republika Srpska?

13 A. I think later on, yes.

14 Q. In September 1992.

15 A. Something like that.

16 Q. And a vice-president of the government of Republika Srpska?

17 A. Yes, he was vice-president later on.

18 Q. And despite all those positions that he held during that period,

19 in your view, he was a man of no importance and no influence. Is that

20 what you're telling the Court?

21 A. I want to say that at that time, the real power, considering all

22 bad things, all enemies on the ground -- [Interpretation] Not enemy, but

23 hostilities, the real power was not on that position which he was.

24 Q. I'm sorry. I think it may be better for you, Mr. Dejanovic, and

25 perhaps for all of us if you speak in your own language and have the

Page 23209

1 translation. I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Where --

2 you say he had no real power. Where do you say the real power was?

3 A. [Interpretation] First of all, I have to apologise, but I'm

4 receiving interpretation in my own language, and that is kind of confusing

5 for me, so I would like to continue in my own language.

6 I think I can state that the real power, bearing in mind the state

7 of war that existed in the actual -- on the ground was not in the hands of

8 the civilian authorities and in the positions that Mr. Brdjanin held and

9 that you just enumerated. I don't know whether now I've made myself

10 clear.

11 Q. You say it was not in the hands of the civilian authorities. In

12 whose hands do you say that power was?

13 A. I think it's quite clear. Well, it depends on what we are talking

14 about. If we talk about military issues, the power was in the hands of

15 the military structures. If we talk about other aspects, other things,

16 for instance, the police, they had their own chain of command, their own

17 authorities. So did the military, and the civilian authorities had their

18 jurisdiction over civilian matters. Mr. Brdjanin as a minister, if I

19 remember correctly, was in charge of urban planning and construction, if

20 I'm not mistaken. So that would his sphere of competence.

21 Q. Yes, Mr. Dejanovic, you're not suggesting, are you, that the

22 military and the police acted without orders from the civilian

23 authorities? That was not a military dictatorship in the

24 Republika Srpska, was it?

25 A. No, it was not a military dictatorship, but the military had its

Page 23210

1 own chain of command, its own hierarchy that it used in its actions. Let

2 me just clarify this: The government that we recognised at that time,

3 well, in fact, you discussed broader time period, and I will try to make

4 my answer relevant to the entire period. The government that we

5 recognised was the one of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

6 which had its own structures and organs which functioned in a way.

7 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. The power was still the civilian power at

8 Republic, I suggest, regional, and municipal level.

9 A. I don't know what you mean when you say "power." Everybody had

10 their own sphere of responsibility, and the government structures existed

11 at all levels. There was the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

12 and Herzegovina, there was the association, the Autonomous Region of

13 Krajina, and the municipalities.

14 Q. I don't want to spend too long on this because there are many

15 other matters that I have to deal with today. But the fact is, is it,

16 that the policies and in particular the policy of what you will call

17 neutrally separation from the other nationalities in Bosnia was one

18 devised by the politicians, the civilian authorities, wasn't it?

19 A. I'm afraid I did not understand your question. I understood it in

20 terms of language, but I fail to grasp the question.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go around it in another manner. You have

22 agreed already that at the time it was not a military dictatorship.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree with that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, would you agree also that it was not a police

25 dictatorship?

Page 23211

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically, it was a government structure where

3 you have the civilian authorities, the police authorities, the military

4 authorities functioning together in a time of crisis, in a time of war.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree with this statement.

6 But I have to emphasise that there was a war going on.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, I mentioned that myself. The police had

8 its own chain of command.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: At the highest level of that command, the chief of

11 police, number one, absolute number one, was he answerable to anyone?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The minister of the interior was

13 responsible to the government, and the government was responsible to the

14 assembly.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are getting there.

16 The highest member of the army in the chain of command, was he

17 answerable to anyone? Who was the chief of staff at the time?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember. I believe that

19 was Mr. Mladic was the chief of command, the Main Staff. But at the time

20 when the time now I'm testifying about, when the JNA still existed our

21 political --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, forget about the JNA. We are talking of a

23 later phase now.

24 And who was the commander in chief?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, it was

Page 23212

1 Mr. Mladic at that time.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, the commander in chief. For example, the

3 commander in chief in the former Yugoslavia, the whole country when it was

4 still unified, who was the commander in chief?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the presidency of Yugoslavia.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And of Republika Srpska, who was the commander in

7 chief of the VRS?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the Army of Republika Srpska

9 was established, the presidency of Republika Srpska was the commander in

10 chief of the Army of Republika Srpska.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And the presidency of Republika Srpska was a

12 civilian authority? Would you agree with that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So ultimately at the head, you always have the

15 civilian authority, which controls the destiny of the country, be it war

16 or no state of war.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner, please.

19 MS. KORNER: All right.

20 Q. I want to move on from this topic now.

21 Now, you told us yesterday that in your view the association of

22 Bosnian Krajina municipalities, ZOBK, was a voluntary organisation, and so

23 was the Assembly of the Autonomous Region. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's correct. I think we have two questions here. The

25 association itself was a voluntary organisation. The assembly was just an

Page 23213

1 organ. I cannot say whether that was a voluntary or involuntary

2 organisation. It was an organ that was set up in accordance with an

3 agreement that was reached about it.

4 Q. Didn't it strike you as odd when you read the statute of the

5 association of Bosnian Krajina municipalities, an economic association,

6 that it contained provisions about defence?

7 A. I know that there is a provision in the statute of the association

8 of municipalities of Bosnian Krajina. This is not something unusual in

9 our context. Every municipality has a similar provision. Even a company

10 would have the same provision in its statute at that time, that it should

11 take care of issues related to the coordination of the defence and so on

12 and so forth.

13 Q. So the answer to my question is no, it didn't strike you as odd?

14 A. It was not odd at all.

15 Q. All right. And in September 1991, the assembly of the association

16 turned itself into the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Do

17 you remember that?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. All right. And in the Assembly of the Serbian People held on the

20 21st of November, after the plebiscite, the autonomous regions in what was

21 declared to be the Serbian Republic were verified, weren't they?

22 A. I cannot recall the exact definition. It was said that the

23 autonomous regions would make part of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina. So they became part of it. But I do not recall the exact

25 wording.

Page 23214

1 Q. Right. Well, I'll put it to you, because we've seen the document

2 a number of times - I'm referring to P50 - decisions -- sorry, P17.

3 "Decisions on the proclamation of the Serbian autonomous regions in

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina are hereby verified." That was the actual wording.

5 Your municipality, Bosanski Novi, was one of the municipalities

6 that formed the autonomous region. Do you agree with that?

7 A. If I may, we joined the autonomous region. I don't know whether

8 this is an important distinction. We were not in the first group that set

9 up the association. We joined it at a later stage. I don't know whether

10 that's important.

11 Q. I understand that exactly. You didn't apparently manage to join

12 formally until time in May 1992. But in actual fact, you were listed by

13 the government, the Serbian Government, as one of the municipalities that

14 made up the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Do you agree with that?

15 A. I agree.

16 Q. And from that period, up until the abolition of the regional level

17 in September of 1992, the regional authorities formed part, didn't they,

18 of the governmental authorities?

19 A. They did it in accordance with their statute. I think it's an

20 important issue.

21 Q. Do you understand what I'm trying to do? I'm suggesting to you,

22 sir, that contrary to what you asserted yesterday, that the regional

23 authorities in the form of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region, and

24 later its crisis staff, had real authority and power.

25 A. I wish to reiterate: Despite the fact that the autonomous regions

Page 23215

1 had become part of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, their

2 statute, as it was, remained in force. This statute stipulated that any

3 decisions made by the Autonomous Region of Krajina must be ratified by the

4 local authorities. This, in effect, means that such an organ did not have

5 a de facto executive power. I wanted to clarify that.

6 Q. All right. You see, you also told us yesterday, and I suggest

7 that is because that you and Mr. Vidic discussed this together, that the

8 ARK -- the Autonomous Region Assembly had -- let me find the exact words

9 for a moment, you used. This is at page 29 of LiveNote. The meetings

10 that you attended were like Hyde Park. I take it you mean by that

11 Speakers Corner where everybody can speak in Hyde Park. Is that what you

12 were referring to?

13 "Everyone can enter. Everyone can have a speech. Everyone can

14 go in and out as they want." And so on. It was a very unserious job.

15 And you repeated that. And then you said you were asked: As a result of

16 your conclusion, what was your perception of the ARK Assembly's power or

17 its competence? No, it was not competent.

18 Now, did you attend the meeting of the assembly on the 29th of

19 February when Mr. Karadzic came down? Just let me read you the rest of

20 the people.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not going to bother to get the

22 exhibit out because we have been over it a number of times. I'll find my

23 own copy.

24 Q. Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Koljevic, Mr. Ostojic, and

25 others. Did you attend that meeting?

Page 23216

1 A. I don't remember that I attended it. If I may, as regards the

2 possible links with the statement by Mr. Vidic, I have to say that I used

3 the phrase "Hyde Park," and I described the situation in this way, I did

4 it the first time when I met with Mr. Cunningham a month ago. So please

5 do not try to make any connection between what I originally said, the way

6 that I compared the situation with Hyde Park with anything else.

7 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Vidic spoke at -- at least one of these

8 assemblies?

9 A. At one of the sessions of the Autonomous Region of Krajina? Is

10 that what you're asking me?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I can't remember. I've already stated that I attended very few of

13 these sessions.

14 Q. But you still maintain that this was an assembly without authority

15 or power or importance?

16 A. Yes, that was an assembly that did not have executive power.

17 Q. And you've already told us and confirmed at the end of yesterday

18 that you never, ever implemented any decisions made either by the assembly

19 or by the crisis staff of the region.

20 I'd like you now, please, to have a look at Exhibit P2547. Do you

21 recognise the Official Gazette of the Bosanski Novi Municipality dated the

22 10th of April 1992?

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there's an error in the date on the top.

24 If you look at the original, it clearly says 1992.


Page 23217

1 MS. KORNER: Or it has been translated as 1994.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]


4 Q. Do you recognise that document, Mr. Dejanovic?

5 A. I see that this is the Official Gazette of the Bosanski Novi

6 Municipality.

7 Q. All right. I would like you -- the first decision, Article 1, is

8 to apply the regulations of the old Yugoslavia effectively until the

9 Serbian Republic has passed various laws.

10 Could you go, please, however, to the second decision which says:

11 "Pursuant to Article 86..." Decision, Article 1: "The Bosanski Novi SDK

12 Office shall be detached from the Sarajevo SDK Head Office, Prijedor

13 branch, and the decision on the Autonomous Region of Krajina public

14 auditing service issued at the ARK Assembly session of the 4th of March

15 1992 shall be adopted whereby an SDK Office will be opened as part of the

16 Bosanska Gradiska SDK branch..." et cetera.

17 Presumably, you were well aware of this decision because you were

18 running the SDK.

19 A. I was appointed the head of the SDK later. But I was familiar

20 with the decision.

21 Q. Can you explain why, if the assembly as it still was in April of

22 the autonomous region had no authority, you should do this?

23 A. I think that I didn't say that we did not implement any of the

24 decisions. I want to say that the economic issues were of paramount

25 importance for the autonomous region. But by this decision, the assembly

Page 23218

1 confirmed what it wanted to achieve. One of the economic solutions that

2 was in our interest to implement was implemented in the manner described

3 herein. I stated quite clearly that all the decisions had to be ratified

4 by the assemblies at the municipal level. Municipalities that made part

5 of the autonomous region. So this is exactly what happened. The assembly

6 ratified one of the decisions.

7 Q. All right. I can assure you, sir, you told us that you didn't

8 adopt any of the decisions yesterday. But we'll move on.

9 Now, the reason -- thank you. You can hand that document back.

10 A. I have to apologise. Perhaps I did make a mistake. But I really

11 did not want to say that none of the decisions had been implemented.

12 There was the statute of the autonomous region. And according to the

13 statute, some of the decisions that were in our favour had to be ratified

14 by the municipal assemblies that wanted to have it implemented. And this

15 decision speaks in favour of this statement of mine.

16 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to show you some other decisions which

17 you may have forgotten about.

18 The reason why the Bosniaks in Bosanski Novi didn't want Bosanski

19 Novi to join the Autonomous Region Assembly or any other kind of

20 organisation was because it was clear, wasn't it, to you, that it was

21 nothing more than a body designed to coordinate the Serb -- the Bosnian

22 Serb efforts to separate from the other nationalities?

23 A. I cannot go into attempts to clarify the reasons which prompted

24 Bosniaks to do something or not do something. They could do that

25 themselves. We had our own reasons. We had our legitimate political

Page 23219

1 wishes to preserve Yugoslavia. When this failed, I believe that we still

2 had the legitimate reason to set up this assembly which would negotiate a

3 settlement. And I know that at one point that we never wanted this

4 territory or this state to be cleansed.

5 Q. But it's not what the Muslims themselves thought privately; it's

6 what they said to you, wasn't it, sir?

7 A. Well, we were in constant contact with them, and we did discuss

8 things. Probably, I can only assume, that they probably feared that this

9 was a political solution. The Autonomous Region of Krajina was something

10 that was leading to a political solution which was not in their favour.

11 Q. They didn't -- you can't -- it's not that you assume it. They

12 actually said that, didn't they? They said, and in particular, the

13 president of the SDA, Mr. Muhamed - I have always had problems with this

14 name, Muhamedagic, he said in terms didn't he that they didn't want to

15 join because this was a Serb organisation which was going to be, as it

16 were, used as a coordinating body against the Bosniaks?

17 A. It is possible that those are his words. I cannot recall at this

18 point. It's his right to form opinions, as was ours, as regards this

19 particular organisation.

20 [In English] I'm sorry.

21 [Interpretation] Sorry, are you talking about Izet Muhamedagic?

22 Q. Yes, I am.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: This is supposedly -- the same person that

24 supposedly together with whom they collected the weapons.

25 MS. KORNER: That's right.

Page 23220

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, so.


3 Q. What happened to him?

4 A. He was killed in a helicopter crash sometime later on, as far as I

5 know.

6 Q. Now, the Bosanski Novi SDS declined, didn't they, to make any

7 provision for the referendum that was to be held in -- was held in

8 February of 1992?

9 A. Pursuant to the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina we

10 believed -- or rather, it was said that Serbs were constituent peoples.

11 Serb deputies in the assembly having expressed their wish believed this

12 referendum to be directly against Serbs, and this is the reasons why we

13 didn't wish to take part in it.

14 Q. Not only did you not take part, you didn't give any assistance at

15 all for the holding of the referendum?

16 A. The referendum in question as far as we were concerned was an

17 illegal one, so we took no part whatsoever in organising it.

18 Q. And it was after that referendum, wasn't it, that the tensions

19 really began to rise in Bosanski Novi?

20 A. Yes, I think I can agree with you. Not only because of the

21 referendum. I already explained that the town of Bosanski Novi was in a

22 very special situation.

23 Q. Now, you told us that the crisis staff of the autonomous region

24 had -- I'm sorry. You told us -- there, you were quite definite that you

25 never saw -- you were shown the Gazette decisions. You never saw any of

Page 23221

1 them, and you didn't do anything about them. Do you remember saying that

2 yesterday? Page 58 of the LiveNote.

3 A. Yes, I believe that this is what I said. And once again, I didn't

4 see any of the Official Gazettes. The reasons, perhaps, having to do with

5 the nature of my work, I didn't come across any of them. I never saw any

6 of them. I mean, this was not legislation which guided our activities.

7 Q. All right. Could you have a look, please, at Exhibit P186.

8 That's a decision addressed from the crisis staff to the president

9 of the municipal assembly. "Pursuant to the decision of the Crisis Staff

10 of the Autonomous Region of the 11th of May 1992, we submit to you the

11 statements of accounts for financing of institutions and the defence of

12 the autonomous region. Could you please immediately deposit the set

13 amounts to transfer account number..." et cetera.

14 If we look under Bosanski Novi, 4, population times 30 dinars per

15 head, 1.246.230 dinars.

16 Now, could you have a look, please, at P2539. Four days later on

17 the 15th of May, the executive committee of the assembly stated that "on

18 the basis of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina telex of

19 the 11th of May - and it gives the number, and we can see that number if

20 we look at the previous document - issued the following: The

21 Bosanski Novi municipal administration secretariat is ordered to pay

22 1.246.230 dinars into the account of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

23 institutions. The order comes into effect immediately."

24 Is that something you had forgotten about, sir?

25 A. I cannot recall this decision either. It is possible that there

Page 23222

1 are more of such decisions or orders. But I don't think that it shows

2 that all decisions were automatically implemented. We have an organ, a

3 body here which adopted a decision to a certain effect.

4 Q. But why would you do this, sir, if in your view this is a - I'm

5 paraphrasing - a hopelessly inefficient, powerless organisation? Why give

6 them all this money?

7 A. I don't know why the executive committee did this. It was

8 certainly contrary to the statute of the municipal assembly and the

9 Autonomous Region of Krajina.

10 Q. Well, the reason, I suggest to you, sir, and you know full well it

11 was done is because during this period of time, the crisis staff of the

12 region had authority. That's the reality, isn't it, sir?

13 A. I wouldn't agree with that. There could have been some individual

14 cases like that, but municipal organs had to function pursuant to

15 statutory provisions. This is an example of a violation of the statute of

16 the municipal assembly and the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, I'm going to stop you here because you're

18 not answering the question.

19 Ms. Korner asked you, "Well, the reason I suggest to you, sir, you

20 know full well it was done is because during this period of time the

21 crisis staff of the region had authority. That's the reality, isn't it,

22 sir?" Now, you are giving an answer which may be correct insofar as the

23 municipality is concerned, but you are not answering her question. You

24 said I wouldn't agree with that. "There could have been some individual

25 cases like that, but municipal organs had to function pursuant to

Page 23223

1 statutory provisions. This is an example of a violation of the statute of

2 the municipal assembly and the Autonomous Region of Krajina." But you've

3 still not commented or answered on the suggestion that was put to you by

4 Ms. Korner; namely, that all this, including violations of the statute of

5 the municipal assembly was done precisely because the crisis staff of the

6 ARK had authority?

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I'm going to object to your question

8 because I believed with his answer "I wouldn't agree with that" that he

9 answers the question.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But he is answering a question without giving

11 an explanation, and he tries to give an explanation which does not tally

12 at all with the reason why he is not agreeing with the question that was

13 put to him by Ms. Korner.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Then he should --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If the municipality decides to take steps which are

16 in accordance with his opinion a violation of the statute of the municipal

17 assembly, it certainly does not explain his stand or his opinion that the

18 crisis staff of the ARK was not important and was almost a ridiculous

19 organisation.

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: He answered the question that was put to him.

21 Now he's being criticised because he didn't give an explanation. If he's

22 asked to give an explanation, he'll do it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: He was asked --

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: When you admonish the witnesses every day, you

25 say be as precise and concise with his questions, and I do that in my

Page 23224

1 proofing sessions with witnesses. So if he's being taken to task for not

2 giving an explanation, he should have the opportunity to give that

3 explanation.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, perhaps you can give the explanation now. If

5 the municipal assembly thought it fit to take certain measures which in

6 your opinion are in themselves a violation of the rules of the statute,

7 why would they do so? Would it be because the ARK crisis was an

8 institution which had no importance? Or was it because the ARK crisis

9 actually was the institution which was important at the time? This is

10 what was put to you by Ms. Korner, and you didn't agree with. And the two

11 don't -- your statement and your explanation don't go together.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was put to me by the Prosecutor

13 that I knew that it had authority, that it was a powerful organ. I beg to

14 differ with this allegation. In particular, with the fact that I was

15 aware of that. To clear this issue, first, as to why in this case one

16 particular organ at the time -- in very chaotic times, why such an organ

17 adopted a decision to this effect, I don't know. I couldn't tell you the

18 reasons why this decision was adopted. Someone else could perhaps do

19 that. I know that where dozens of other decisions adopted on a daily

20 basis which were not subject to any consideration or any adequate

21 decision-making process.

22 I don't know whether I have managed to explain my position. I do

23 not agree that it was a powerful body, a body that had authority, and I

24 cannot explain the reasons why this was done in this particular case.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Korner.

Page 23225


2 Q. It was the only regional authority, wasn't it? The assembly first

3 of all, and then the crisis staff. There was no other regional authority?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. You see, in the instructions from Mr. Dzeric which you looked at

6 yesterday, and you may want to have it back again - it's P --

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It will be tab number 9 in his book.

8 MS. KORNER: I know, but for the purposes of the record.


10 MS. KORNER: Is it 157? I can't remember.

11 I'm sorry, Your Honour, I thought I had brought it down today, but

12 I seemed to have left it behind.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, are you going to refer him to --

14 MS. KORNER: I am. P157, the last -- paragraph 14.

15 Q. Have you got it there? "The crisis staff has convene, make

16 decisions in the presence of its members, take official minutes" -- I take

17 it as you told us yesterday, that although you can't remember it, minutes

18 must have been taken. "Issue written decisions, submit weekly reports to

19 the regional and state organisations."

20 Do you remember reading that?

21 A. Well, I have it here. I can have a look at it. Are you talking

22 about paragraph 14? Yes, I have read it now.

23 Q. And you read it at the time, you told us.

24 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand. What are you referring to?

25 Q. I'll start this one again, sir.

Page 23226

1 A. I apologise really, but...

2 Q. You told us yesterday that although you deny ever seeing what we

3 call variant A and B instructions, you did see in 1992 the instructions

4 from Mr. Dzeric.

5 A. I don't remember exactly when it was that I saw them, but I am

6 familiar with them, yes.

7 Q. Sorry, sir. Did you see those instructions in April 1992, or

8 early May?

9 A. I believe that this is what I said. I believe I did, but 11 years

10 down the road, I really cannot remember exactly. I believe that it worked

11 according to these instructions.

12 Q. I see. And paragraph 14 instructs you to deliver weekly reports

13 to the regional authorities.

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. And that's what you did, wasn't it, by somebody from the crisis

16 staff attending the Monday meetings of the crisis staff of the autonomous

17 region?

18 A. It is my assumption. I don't know for sure that reports were done

19 and submitted to all of these addressees.

20 Q. And clearly, as we've discussed earlier, the prime minister of the

21 Serbian government considered that the regional authorities was someone to

22 whom the municipalities should report. You would agree with that,

23 wouldn't you, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That is why, sir, I suggest to you - let me come back to the same

Page 23227

1 suggestion - you were following directions and orders from the regional

2 crisis staff. And by "you," I mean your municipality, the SDS in your

3 municipality.

4 A. I still abide by what I testified before. In view of this statute

5 and in view of the character of the association of the Autonomous Region

6 of Krajina, we were not bound by their orders. We didn't have to

7 implement them. And the reports were submitted on a regular basis. They

8 were made in several copies and addressed to the relevant addressees, such

9 as the state organs of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So

10 to an organisation which existed at the time. It is clear that the

11 Autonomous Region of Krajina existed at the time, but it does not mean

12 that we had to abide by their decisions outside the statute.

13 Q. Whether you had to or not, the reality is for the important

14 matters you did, didn't you?

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to the form of that question

16 because it doesn't specify what she means when she says "the important

17 matters." So I object to the form.

18 MS. KORNER: I'm going to come to this.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.


21 Q. For example, let's take disarmament of the Muslims. That came

22 about, didn't it, with the deadlines as a result of instructions from the

23 autonomous region?

24 A. The regional crisis staff did adopt a decision to that effect with

25 specified time limits. But I don't think that it said disarming of

Page 23228

1 Muslims, but disarming of paramilitary formations. I remember that, and I

2 know that units of the Territorial Defence were in charge of that, or the

3 police. I don't remember exactly. So we were talking about disarming,

4 disarmament. It was an interest that we had at the time and which had to

5 be taken care of. I already explained to you that the situation was

6 chaotic, and what my conduct was at the time. Each of us behaved as best

7 as we could.

8 Q. Yes, well you're absolutely right, sir. That's what the order

9 actually said. It just said "paramilitaries." But in actual fact, in

10 Bosanski Novi, as everywhere else, the only disarming that was done was of

11 non-Serbs, wasn't it?

12 A. I couldn't confirm that. I am not hundred per cent sure. I don't

13 have any evidence to that effect. But it is possible that some Serbs were

14 also disarmed. I do not have any specific information as to whose weapons

15 specifically were seized at the time.

16 Q. Well, you were, weren't you, sir, heavily involved as you've

17 already told us in the negotiations that went on with the Bosniaks?

18 A. Yes, I was involved.

19 Q. And I imagine you were shown by Mr. Cunningham the newspaper

20 article to that effect. Could you hand back P1626.

21 MS. KORNER: Rather than having the usher look, we've got a spare

22 copy here. Can that be handed.

23 Q. It's an article in Glas on the 8th of May, and it describes those

24 negotiations between yourself on behalf of the SDS and Muhamedagic on

25 behalf of the SDA.

Page 23229

1 A. If you can just give me a moment to have a look at the document, I

2 have not seen it.

3 Q. You weren't shown it by Mr. Cunningham?

4 A. No. With your permission, please, just a second.

5 Q. All right. Okay.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It was in the folder yesterday, wasn't it?

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I didn't use it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It was in the folder.


10 JUDGE AGIUS: It was amongst the documents that you had indicated

11 to us.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have read it.


14 Q. Do you remember this? This was the meeting you were talking about

15 yesterday in your evidence, isn't it?

16 A. I had several meetings with Mr. Muhamedagic, and this was probably

17 one of those, but I don't recall the exact venue and the time of the

18 meeting.

19 Q. All right. You, in fact, told us that you had been involved in

20 negotiations in Bosanska Kostajnica, but you had also been involved in

21 these negotiations in the actual Bosanski Novi itself, hadn't you? That's

22 what this is talking about.

23 A. That is correct. But I dedicated more time and more attention to

24 Kostajnica. I was the president of the municipal SDS, and that was one of

25 the topics that we discussed.

Page 23230

1 Q. Yes, but you were the president of the municipal SDS of

2 Bosanski Novi. Kostajnica was a tiny, tiny place, wasn't it?

3 A. We mentioned it yesterday. It was not such a tiny place. It had

4 a population of 6500, compared to the 42.000-strong municipality, with a

5 similar ethnic composition.

6 Q. All right. And why was it you and not Mr. Pasic as the president

7 of the municipal assembly who was engaged in these negotiations?

8 A. Ethnic tensions were already very high. And obviously, the SDS

9 was representing the Serbian people at the time, and the SDA, the Muslim

10 population. And the president of the assembly is someone who should have

11 acted as some kind of mediator, not on behalf of any particular party. So

12 that was one of the reasons why. We wanted to show that both SDS and SDA

13 were appealing to those who were still illegally holding weapons to hand

14 them over to the relevant authorities. So I attended the meeting on

15 behalf of the party.

16 Q. All right. Let's just look at what the report says in the

17 beginning. "Today in Bosanski Novi, days-long negotiations between the

18 representatives of the SDS and the Party of Democratic Action on the

19 implementation of the decisions of the Serbian Republic and the Autonomous

20 Region Bosanska Krajina have successfully been brought to an end."

21 Next sentence: "This primarily" - primarily - "regards the issue

22 of disarming illegally armed groups and individuals who are not part of

23 the regular municipal TO forces."

24 Now, the majority of people who were not in the TO were the

25 Bosniaks, weren't they?

Page 23231

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And although the decisions or the decision by the ARK Crisis Staff

3 didn't say "Bosniaks," that's what was meant, wasn't it? And you knew

4 that.

5 A. I would not agree, once again. There were regular units, the

6 Territorial Defence, the police, and the military. We urged all those who

7 held weapons and which were not -- who were not part of these structures

8 to hand them in. We knew at the time that most Bosniaks were not in the

9 TO. But if you look at the end of this article, it states clearly here

10 that we both urged and we agreed that representatives or members of the

11 Bosniak ethnicity should also join the Territorial Defence and the police

12 in order for them to reflect the ethnic structure.

13 Q. It was a trick, wasn't it, sir? It was to trick the Bosniaks --

14 A. No, it was not a trick. This was something that I advocated quite

15 sincerely, and I have to say that I actually managed to implement it to a

16 certain extent.

17 Q. Well, because look what happened within days of this agreement.

18 The special forces came down, didn't they, from Banja Luka? Special

19 intervention squad sent by the CSB.

20 A. That's correct. A group of people came, and they stated that

21 that's who they were. But I was not familiar with their chain of command.

22 Q. Yes, you said there was this group, and you suggested these were

23 paramilitaries and illegal formations. To the contrary, you knew full

24 well, didn't you, sir, that this was an authorised police squad sent by

25 Banja Luka CSB, didn't you, sir?

Page 23232

1 A. I think that I stated quite clearly in my previous answers that

2 they stated that they were a police unit and that as far as I was

3 concerned, they were a paramilitary formation. In view of the way in

4 which they operated, I have to say that I was not aware of their chain of

5 command. They did state that they were a police unit. But in view of the

6 fact in which they operated, I considered them to be a paramilitary unit

7 or a group.

8 Q. I absolutely agree with you, sir. But they were an authorised,

9 legal paramilitary group, weren't they?

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the question. It has already been

11 answered. He said he didn't know where they came from.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't know the chain of command. He has

13 confirmed that at least twice, Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, with respect, this constant American

15 objection of asked and answered is simply not in my submission a proper

16 one. It is perfectly proper to ask the same question even if an answer

17 was given if there are other facts related.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Then I'll give another American objection. The

19 continued questioning would be cumulative. It has been gone over before.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The only problem that there is in this particular

21 instance is that he has answered the question with regard to the chain of

22 command already yesterday and today, and he has confirmed that he was not

23 aware of the chain of command of this so-called paramilitary group,

24 according to him.


Page 23233

1 Q. Did you see -- you were watching television at that time, were

2 you?

3 A. I cannot say that I did not, but I did not spend a lot of time

4 watching TV because I did not have the opportunity to do so.

5 Q. Did you read the newspapers?

6 A. I believe I did, because that's what I usually do.

7 Q. Did you see the publicity given to the formation of the special

8 intervention squad of the CSB either on television or in the newspapers?

9 A. I really do not recall any details pertaining to these events.

10 Q. All right. Now, did you attend the meeting, the assembly meeting,

11 on the 12th of May 1992 in Banja Luka?

12 A. On the 12th of May?

13 Q. 12th of May 1992, when the creation -- when the VRS was created

14 and the six strategic goals of the Serbian People were enumerated?

15 A. I think that on the 12th of May, that was the period when the

16 tensions were high in the municipality and that I did not go there to

17 attend the meeting. I do not remember that session, and I believe I did

18 not attend it.

19 Q. Okay. Did you know a gentleman named Mr. Vjestica?

20 A. I did know him. Vjestica.

21 Q. Who was the deputy for Bosanska Krupa?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which was a neighbouring municipality of yours?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you aware that in Bosanska Krupa already by the 12th of May

Page 23234

1 that there had been a total separation of the Bosniaks and the Serbs in

2 that municipality?

3 A. I knew that.

4 Q. And Mr. --

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm looking now, please, at -- I'm

6 looking at P50. And I'll give you the B/C/S if you want.

7 Q. Mr. Vjestica was giving a report to the assembly about conditions

8 in Krupa and other municipalities on the Croatian border. And he said

9 this --

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is page 26 of the translation. As

11 I say, I'll bring it up if necessary.

12 Q. "As for Bosanski Novi, let me tell you that I was there

13 yesterday. Bosanski Novi is sealed off. An ultimatum has been issued,

14 and a deadline set for the Muslims to surrender their weapons." Was that

15 true?

16 A. I cannot comment on it. I was not there. And if you're asking me

17 what Mr. Vjestica said, I cannot. But if you're asking me whether an

18 ultimatum had been issued, there was a deadline for the surrender of

19 weapons.

20 Q. Can we take this in stages, I'm sorry. Split this up.

21 First of all, do you agree as a matter of fact - forget about

22 Mr. Vjestica seeing it - that Bosanski Novi had been sealed off?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: On the 11th of May?

24 MS. KORNER: 12th. Well, yes, it would have been the day before.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Day before.

Page 23235


2 Q. Sealed off by the army and the police.

3 A. We would use a Bosniak term for seal off. There was a police, and

4 there was the army. But I do not really know what is meant by this term

5 "seal off." The military and the police, they performed their own

6 functions. But I don't know what you mean when you say "seal off" the

7 territory of the municipality.

8 Q. I'm using the words --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you show him the original.

10 MS. KORNER: I will, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think the original should be in his own

12 language, and he will be in a position --

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have marked it up. I can show him the

14 original.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You understand that I can't intervene on something

16 like this and suggest questions or answers to the witness.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, for the purposes of the note, this is

18 page 16 in the original Cyrillic, so I hope I've got the right place. And

19 the part should be at page 17.

20 Does Your Honour want to have the English on the ELMO?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, not really, Ms. Korner.

22 And you, Mr. Cunningham, do you need it on the ELMO or on the

23 corresponding --

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm fine, Your Honour. Thank you but no thank

25 you.

Page 23236


2 Q. Now, you've seen what the original says, sir. Do you understand

3 what "sealed off" means?

4 A. Yes. Blockaded.

5 Q. Do you agree that was the situation?

6 A. If I may, I don't really know whether I have the right to answer

7 this question at all. To say that a town is "sealed off," it means that

8 nobody could go anywhere, and that was not what the situation was like.

9 But if by saying "seal off," you mean to say that the military and the

10 police set up certain checkpoints to carry out certain controls, to

11 control a territory, then, yes, that was the situation. The word "to seal

12 off" can be taken to mean two or three various things. If you are not

13 happy with my answer, perhaps we can --

14 Q. I'm suggesting to you that what had happened was that the army and

15 the police were there in force, that blockades had been set up so that

16 nobody could leave. And I'm asking you whether you agree with that.

17 A. I agree that they manned certain positions, but I believe that it

18 was possible to pass through despite these positions if one wanted to go

19 somewhere, one could do so. They took up certain positions in order to

20 carry out checks, to check whether somebody was armed. Things like that.

21 So the police and the military were present. They did take up certain

22 positions. They did carry out checks trying to find weapons. But I do

23 not believe that there was a total blockade imposed which would mean that

24 nobody could go anywhere, neither in nor out.

25 Q. All right. Let's move on to the next part that Mr. Vjestica said

Page 23237

1 to the assembly. "An ultimatum has been issued." You agree with that?

2 Do you agree with that?

3 A. I'm trying to remember now. All those who held weapons illegally

4 were asked to hand them in by a certain date. There was a deadline

5 imposed. I think that it was stated that if the weapons were not

6 surrendered, the competent authorities would carry out searches. If this

7 is what you mean when you say an ultimatum, then it was an ultimatum.

8 There was no other ultimatum put forward by Mr. Vjestica.

9 Q. All right. And then the next part: "A deadline set for the

10 Muslims to surrender their weapons." Why not the Serbs?

11 A. I have to say again that this deadline did not refer specifically

12 to Muslims, but to all those who had illegal weapons.

13 Q. Do you have any idea why Mr. Vjestica should be telling the

14 assembly this was a deadline for Muslims only, and the same in

15 Sanski Most?

16 A. I really have no idea as to what Mr. Vjestica meant. What I'm

17 saying is that as far as I'm concerned and as far as our activities in

18 this town were concerned, our position was as I have just described it.

19 Q. All right.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So, we're going to have a 25-minute break starting

21 from now. And we'll continue soon after. Thank you.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The usher, I suppose, is bringing in the witness.

25 Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

Page 23238

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, if I may address the Court briefly,

2 Mr. Pytlik, our intern, is with us today, and with your permission I would

3 like for him to join us.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cunningham. And welcome again once

5 more, because we have seen you before? Okay, thank you.

6 The witness.

7 Now, while we wait for the witness to come in, as we go along,

8 Mr. Cunningham, and roughly in good time before the next break, please

9 give us an indication how much you require for redirect.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: As it stands right now, about five minutes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So that gives you an idea of how much

12 time you have, Ms. Korner.

13 MS. KORNER: Well, as Mr. Cunningham has said, it's five minutes,

14 I won't raise what otherwise I might raise. My cross-examination should

15 not be limited by how much he wants --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but I'm trying to get the witness out of

17 The Hague today.

18 MS. KORNER: He will be, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is not possible, then obviously we will have

20 to discuss other matters.

21 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, he will be.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm working on that assumption, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: He will be.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


Page 23239

1 Q. All right, sir. The reality of the situation around the 10th,

2 11th, 12th of May was that Bosanski Novi was full of units that fell under

3 the 5th, later the 1st Krajina Corps, isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. They had complete control over the territory, didn't they?

6 A. I agree.

7 Q. Well, thank you. You've negated the necessity to put to you a

8 number of documents.

9 Now, the intervention squad that came from Banja Luka, as you

10 rightly told us yesterday, behaved exceedingly badly, didn't they?

11 Can you have a look, please, at P1652. You told us yesterday that

12 there had been a letter from the Bosanska Kostajnica police chief or

13 station commander. Is that the letter you were thinking of?

14 A. Let me clarify. This I said that I spoke to the chief of police,

15 and that we were trying to find a solution as to how to get rid of these

16 people. And as far as I know, he sent this letter and started the

17 correspondence related to the attempts to solve this problem. I believe

18 that this is the letter. In fact, when I look at it, I can confirm that

19 this is the letter. I myself did not write it.

20 Q. Right. But the only reason it was - a complaint was made, wasn't

21 it - was because Serbs were complaining about the behaviour of these men?

22 A. That is not the only reason. It is a very important reason first

23 of all. The Serbs did not complain about the way these people treated

24 Serbs. Serbs did not agree with the actions of these men towards Muslims.

25 That was one of the reasons.

Page 23240

1 Another reason, I think that the local police commander stated, I

2 think, four reasons, normative reasons for which he did not agree with

3 this.

4 Q. Yes, but what I'm putting to you, sir, is the only reason that the

5 letter was ever sent was because local Serbs complained about the

6 behaviour of these men, and I agree, towards Muslims; they didn't like

7 what was being done.

8 A. I cannot say that this is the only reason, because the commander

9 stated some other reasons, too.

10 Q. And to your knowledge, I suggest, this was a group that came under

11 the control of the CSB and came to Bosanski Novi at the request of the SJB

12 in Bosanski Novi?

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: My objection is two-fold. I object to the form

16 of the question because it's a compound question. And secondly, I think

17 it's an attempt to reask the same question he did before as to where these

18 individuals came from and whose command they were under. And I believe

19 he's already said he didn't know that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree with you that it is a compound question, and

21 that it should be divided into two. But I would allow the questions, both

22 questions, to be put to the witness again because he is now being asked to

23 answer them in the light of what is contained in this document P1652.

24 So Ms. Korner.


Page 23241

1 Q. Well, I'm going to show you another document in a moment. But as

2 a member -- as president of the SDS, as a member of the assembly and/or

3 the crisis staff at this stage, you had close liaison, didn't you, with

4 the police chief in Bosanska Kostajnica and also with the police chief in

5 Bosanski Novi?

6 A. I knew both these men. I cannot now say how close the relations

7 were, but I knew both of them personally.

8 Q. Right. And this disarmament operation was an important operation,

9 wasn't it, for the purposes of Bosanski Novi Municipality?

10 A. I agree that the issue of disarmament was an important one.

11 Q. And didn't it involve close liaison between the police, the army,

12 and the political authorities, yourself and Mr. Pasic, in Bosanski Novi?

13 A. This meant that everybody should do their job which was in their

14 sphere of competence. And they should also all cooperate with each other.

15 Q. All right. Can you also have a look, please, at P1657. This is a

16 letter, isn't it, written by the chief of the Bosanski Novi police

17 station, Mr. Kutlija.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Dated the 21st of May and addressed to the Banja Luka CSB to the

20 command of the special purpose detachment to Ljubomir Ecim personally.

21 Now, did you know Mr. Ecim in 1992?

22 A. No, I've never even met him.

23 Q. Do you know who he is now?

24 A. I really don't.

25 Q. All right. And it's a report on -- it's headed, isn't it,

Page 23242

1 "report on the work and actions by a unit from the special purposes

2 detachment in the area under the control of this SJB."

3 "Following a deterioration in the security situation in the

4 Bosanski Novi Municipality on the 11th of May 1992 when uncontrolled

5 shooting erupted first in the town and then around the predominantly

6 Muslim villages in the Japra Valley, the security service centre of

7 Banja Luka dispatched a unit from the special purposes detachment under

8 the command of Mirko Lukic and a military police unit under the command of

9 Major Stupar as support on the 14th of May.

10 "On the 15th of May, the leading team of the Bosanski Novi SJB,

11 including police inspector Vaso Skondric, sent the special unit of the CSB

12 an armoured fighting vehicle to search the Muslim part of

13 Bosanska Kostajnica." And then there's a description of what we saw in

14 the previous letter.

15 Now, do you agree that these men that were described yesterday as

16 criminals who called them policemen were, in fact, a CSB unit under the

17 command of your local SJB?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you prepared to change your opinion now? I

19 mean, this is basically what it amounts to.

20 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm going a bit further after that,

21 Your Honour. But that's what -- that's the first question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, let me remind you that I

23 said that this was a unit that had come to Kostajnica and that they stated

24 that they were the police. I also said that according to -- on the basis

25 of how they acted, I considered them to be a paramilitary unit. This memo

Page 23243

1 indicates likewise they were given instructions to act in accordance with

2 the law, and you have three laws stated here. And since they were in

3 violation of these laws, I considered them to be a paramilitary unit.

4 That was my opinion, and I tried to formulate it in those terms. Perhaps

5 I did not express myself quite clearly. They stated that they were a

6 police unit; but on the basis of their actions, I considered them to be a

7 paramilitary unit.


9 Q. What you said yesterday, page 46 of the LiveNote, was this:

10 "They introduced themselves as police. By what they'd done later on, I

11 think it's a criminal group. I don't believe it's real police." That's

12 what you told us yesterday. Now, it is not only -- I'm sorry, perhaps I

13 can -- at the risk of attracting an objection, repeat the question.

14 Is it clear, isn't it, from this document, sir, that this was an

15 authorised CSB unit actually acting under the command of your local police

16 station?

17 A. It is quite clear from this memo, but I still maintain that they

18 acted in violation of the law, and that is why, as far as I'm concerned,

19 they were a paramilitary unit. They violated the law and instructions

20 they had been given. I don't know whether I've made myself clear.

21 Q. But what I'm suggesting -- I agree with you. What I'm suggesting

22 to you is you knew perfectly well at the time that this badly behaved

23 group of criminals was not only part of the CSB, but also acting as a

24 result of instructions from your police station. In other words, they had

25 gone into operation, whatever they did after that, as a result of your

Page 23244

1 local policemen -- sorry, chief. And you knew that, didn't you, at the

2 time, sir? That's what I'm suggesting to you.

3 A. I really do not know that. I see from this memo that it was made

4 on the 21st of May 1992, which would mean -- I really didn't know who

5 these people were. At that time, I was in Kostajnica. I was not in daily

6 contact. There simply wasn't time to be in contact with all these people.

7 When I realised what the men were doing, I responded. We asked for these

8 people -- in fact, I realised that these people did not act in accordance

9 with any laws, any regulations. And that is why myself and all the other

10 people listed here responded.

11 I did not know that they would arrive. I did not know who they

12 were. As far as I was concerned and as far as the local people were

13 concerned, these people -- these men were unknown.

14 Q. You see, I suggest to you that these -- this special group was the

15 beginnings of a series of actions initiated to drive the Muslims out of

16 Bosanski Novi. That's the reality, isn't it, to your knowledge?

17 A. I cannot say what their task was, what their raison d'etre was.

18 What I know is that we offered some kind of a resistance to them, and that

19 we demanded that they do not act in the way that they had acted until

20 then.

21 Q. Because thereafter, as you told us yesterday, and I suggest to you

22 that you used entirely the correct word, shelling and shooting of Muslim

23 areas, particularly in the Japra Valley, began, didn't it?

24 A. I cannot recall exactly when the problems in the Japra Valley

25 began. You asked me what date it was, after which date. But I believe

Page 23245

1 that the problems in Japra Valley erupted precisely around this period

2 when the police unit came. I'm not quite sure, however.

3 Q. There was an incident involving a military -- some military police

4 at a checkpoint. That's right, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that was then used as an excuse by units under the command of

7 the 1st Krajina Corps, or the 5th as it still was then, to shell Muslim

8 areas.

9 A. I cannot state that there was shelling, and I cannot state that

10 the shelling was carried out by units of the 1st Krajina Corps. It is

11 true that this incident happened and that it caused problems.

12 Q. And the people who lived in the Muslims areas of the Japra Valley

13 were driven from their homes, weren't they?

14 A. Yes, that is true that they left their homes and the problems that

15 ensued.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The question wasn't -- I apologise to the

17 interpreters for butting in like that.

18 The question wasn't whether it's true that they left; the question

19 is whether it's true that they had been driven out. Which is different.

20 So please, answer that question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that the term "driven

22 out" was used. But I was not in the field, and I cannot state whether

23 anyone went from house to house forcing them to leave. I know that they

24 left their homes. I'm sure that they didn't do it voluntarily. They did

25 it because they were afraid and for other reasons. They left their homes.

Page 23246

1 But I cannot state that somebody went from house to house forcing them to

2 leave.


4 Q. Did you have -- are you telling us that you had absolutely no

5 liaison on the crisis staff with the military forces in your area?

6 A. The commander of the Territorial Defence staff, I think that he

7 attended the sessions of the crisis staff. But I have to say that in

8 Novi, just a few sessions of the crisis staff were held. I cannot recall

9 any specific details. The commander of the Territorial Defence staff did

10 attend the sessions of the crisis staff, but he was -- he had his place in

11 the military chain of command, and he was accountable to them, to his

12 superiors there.

13 Q. Yes, but nonetheless the military weren't operating in isolation,

14 were they? You, the civilian authorities, had to know what was happening?

15 A. Civilian authorities had the obligation to provide logistics

16 support to the military. In any situations in which the military was

17 activated. That is why it was necessary to coordinate things with the

18 military forces. That was the reason why we were in communication. Of

19 course, we were not blind. We all knew that there were problems in the

20 field. We were aware of that.

21 Q. And you had to issue - and if you need to, I'll show you - you,

22 the civilian authorities, had to issue orders that rubble from destroyed

23 villages and areas were cleared away, didn't you?

24 A. The rubble in urban areas, this is what happened later. The

25 rubble that was endangering the safety of civilians had to be removed,

Page 23247

1 that's true.

2 Q. So you had to be told, didn't you, something about the operations

3 that were being carried out by the military, by the TO against Bosniaks?

4 A. We knew that there were problems from the TO, from the police. We

5 were informed by them that the paramilitary structures were causing

6 problems. And I believe that we requested from the competent military and

7 police bodies to put an end to the activities of the paramilitaries.

8 Q. No. I am suggesting to you that this wasn't paramilitaries, as

9 you told us yesterday, firing on villages; this was units of the regular

10 army, plus the TO. And I'm equally suggesting to you that you know that,

11 sir.

12 A. I cannot agree with your suggestions.

13 Q. On the 1st -- I'm sorry. Yes, around the 1st of June, the town of

14 Bosanski Novi was itself shelled, wasn't it?

15 A. I'm trying to remember. I know that there were some incidents,

16 but I cannot now recall the exact time and the events in question.

17 Q. Not incidents, sir; actual, organised, military, targeted

18 shelling. That is what happened, wasn't it?

19 A. I don't remember any organised, military shelling.

20 Q. Do you --

21 A. There may have been some individuals -- in fact, there were some

22 individuals who were not under the control of the military organs, or

23 paramilitary groups, which carried out some bad acts, so to speak. But

24 they did it on their own -- of their own volition.

25 Q. Are you telling us, and I'm sorry, I'm going to put the exact date

Page 23248

1 to you, that on the 10th of June, the shelling that took place in the town

2 of Bosanski Novi with long-range guns, if you like, was done by

3 paramilitary units?

4 A. I already stated in my previous answer that this may have been

5 carried out by irresponsible individuals and paramilitary formations who

6 did that without having been ordered to do so.

7 Q. Do you remember troops coming into the town of Bosanski Novi?

8 A. I cannot remember what troops you're referring to. I said that

9 Novi was a place where a lot of troops came and went.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you be specific as regards the date, Ms. Korner,

11 please.

12 MS. KORNER: 10th of June and thereafter.

13 Q. Do you remember the houses of Muslims being set on fire?

14 A. I never denied that there were incidents. I cannot really

15 remember what you're referring to, but there were incidents in that time

16 period.

17 Q. But this was the central town in Bosanski Novi. Are you telling

18 us that the army and the police stood by and let these rogue paramilitary

19 units do this to the town?

20 A. I think one could say that there were incidents, the military and

21 the police at that time, in the chaos that reigned at the time, really did

22 have problems controlling all the individuals and groups and that they

23 were not able to control everything. All the paramilitary units and the

24 irresponsible individuals.

25 Q. I thought we'd agreed some minutes ago that the troops under the

Page 23249

1 control of the 1st Krajina Corps had complete control of the territory of

2 Bosanski Novi at this period of time.

3 A. I have to apologise. I did not understand your question. You

4 stressed the word "full control," which would mean the control over every

5 corner, every house. There was no full control. This type of control did

6 not exist.

7 Q. So somehow or other, these rogue paramilitaries managed to get the

8 hills around the town of Bosanski Novi, set up their weapons, start

9 firing, move into the town, start burning houses, and nobody could stop

10 them. That's what you're telling us, is it?

11 A. I want to say that there were many sincere and strong attempts to

12 put everything under control, but it was simply not possible to do so.

13 Q. And equally, I suggest, to your knowledge and with your

14 acquiescence, the military moved all the Muslims out of the Japra Valley?

15 A. That was not with my acquiescence. I was informed about it --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Hold it. At this point in time, I think I have to

17 caution the witness. If at any time Ms. Korner puts any question to you

18 which you prefer not to answer because, in your opinion, it might involve

19 you in what happened or may have happened in the region and may expose

20 you, then you can ask us, you can ask me, to be exempted from answering

21 that question. And the Rules provide us with the authority to exempt you,

22 as well as not to exempt you. But I don't think that will be the case.

23 So if there are any questions that are put to you which may expose

24 you to criminal proceedings, please, do intervene and ask us to be

25 exempted from answering the question. I had avoided to do this until now

Page 23250

1 because I didn't think the questions were anything which would really

2 worry the witness. But I think at this stage I need to caution.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes.

4 Q. Now, is this right: The Hotel Una, was that a private enterprise

5 or owned by the municipality?

6 A. It was not a private enterprise, nor was it the property of the

7 municipality. It was so-called socially owned company. That's how it was

8 called in the previous system in the former Yugoslavia.

9 Q. All right. Did that mean that the municipality had to authorise

10 the use to which it was put?

11 A. Municipal authorities were in charge of issuing various

12 authorisations, probably also for catering businesses. If you wanted to

13 open a catering facility, you had to obtain all kinds of approvals from

14 the municipality.

15 Q. All right. The fire station, did that come under the control of

16 the municipality?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The football field, did that come under the control of the

19 municipality?

20 A. What do you mean, under the control of the municipality? It was

21 owned by the football club. It was not owned by the municipality.

22 Q. All right. So you had no ability to direct to what use that

23 football field was put?

24 A. I think that the football field was a football field, and that was

25 its purpose.

Page 23251

1 Q. But it was then, as you've admitted, turned into a massive prison

2 camp, wasn't it?

3 A. It was the place where the people we were talking about were

4 accommodated.

5 Q. These were prisoners, weren't they? People weren't allowed to

6 leave, the Muslims who were incarcerated there?

7 A. It is true that these people were prisoners, that they had been

8 arrested.

9 Q. And arrested for what?

10 A. I think it's really hard to explain the situation which followed

11 all these events. These people wanted to leave the municipality. If they

12 were not given the opportunity to leave the municipality, they wanted to

13 remain together. In the chaos that reigned, I cannot say that they were

14 in captivity. I cannot say that they were free either. They did not have

15 the freedom of movement to go wherever they wanted to. But at any rate,

16 there was in group of people who wanted to leave the municipality and

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, but they wanted to stay together because of the

18 fear that they felt. I cannot, therefore, say that there was a reason for

19 their or some criminal offence for which they had been arrested.

20 Q. That's why I asked you the question. Arrested for what? They

21 hadn't been arrested for anything. They were people, weren't they, who

22 had been ordered out of their homes and villages or were fleeing from what

23 was happening?

24 A. I don't think I'm able to answer your question. While it is true

25 that they did not have freedom of movement and that one couldn't specify

Page 23252

1 any crimes or criminal offences on the grounds of which they would have

2 been arrested, but it is also true that they wanted to stick together.

3 They requested to be allowed to remain together because they felt safer

4 like that. And they wanted -- they requested the police that they be

5 protected from the individuals and the groups that we talked about.

6 Q. All right. So you're saying the police placed them there for

7 their own protection?

8 A. Yes, that was also one of the reasons.

9 Q. Were you aware that Muslims who were captured were taken to the

10 fire station and held there?

11 A. I'm really not familiar with the details of what was going on at

12 the fire station. This was completely outside my scope of activities, and

13 it was not a piece of information that I would have been familiar with at

14 the time.

15 Q. I'm sorry, sir. You, as a member of the crisis staff, which I

16 suggest was operating during this period, were familiar, weren't you, with

17 the fact that people were being kept in the fire station?

18 A. Frankly speaking, once again, this all happened around the 12th of

19 May, the critical times, and I spent maximum of my time in Kostajnica.

20 And it's possible that for a couple of days I was only in Kostajnica

21 because of what was going on. So if we are talking about this particular

22 period of time and the time that followed immediately after that, I really

23 had no idea whatsoever as to what could have been happening there, if that

24 is the period of time we're talking about.

25 Q. I'm suggesting this is the period between the 12th of May and the

Page 23253

1 end of July when the municipality deported nearly all of its Muslims.

2 Now, are you saying during that period of some month and a half you were

3 unaware of people being held at the fire station?

4 A. Oh, now I'm somewhat more clear. I thought you were referring to

5 the period of 12th of May. Of course, later, I learned that some people

6 were being held at the fire station, at the Una Hotel, and the football

7 field.

8 Q. Did you make any inquiries as to what these people were being

9 kept - leave aside the football field for the moment - in the fire station

10 for?

11 A. Obviously we discussed the position of those people, the situation

12 they found themselves in. I didn't inquire as to the reasons why they

13 were being held there. But I requested that they be treated as humanely

14 as possible, in a civilised manner.

15 Q. Why did you feel a need to make that request?

16 A. I believed it to be my obligation to draw the attention to the

17 need to respect the rules of humanitarian law in view of everything that

18 was happening at the time in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Why did you feel it necessary to draw the attention of the police

20 to the rules of humanitarian law? What was happening in Novi that made

21 you feel it necessary?

22 A. Obviously we had had information to the effect that certain

23 individuals were treating those people in an inhumane, uncivilised manner.

24 And to follow up on such information, I believe that we discussed and

25 adopted very clear positions at the meeting of the municipal SDS, that

Page 23254

1 those people should be treated humanely, in a civilised manner, that they

2 should be given freedom of choice. Obviously, they couldn't -- they did

3 not enjoy complete freedom. But at least, they could have been given a

4 choice as to whether they wanted to stay or leave.

5 Q. If you did give such instructions, sir, or anyone else in your

6 crisis staff or SDS, that was because, wasn't it, that you knew that

7 people were being beaten up in these detention places and some of them

8 dying?

9 A. In my previous answer, I said that I had had information to the

10 effect that certain individuals treated those people inhumanely. But I

11 did not have any information concerning any death. Later, I heard that

12 some of those people died. But at the time, I didn't know that. All I

13 knew was that certain individuals treated them inhumanely, and that was

14 the reason why we insisted on a humane and legal approach.

15 Q. Certain individuals being police officers.

16 A. I really do not know who these people were. I do not believe that

17 professional police officers acted in that manner. I couldn't give you

18 any name to that effect. But once again, I simply don't believe that

19 professional police officers indulged in this type of behaviour.

20 Q. Who else had access to, first of all, the fire station?

21 A. I really do not know who had access to the fire station. Believe

22 me, at the time, I was not in a position to know the rules of the game. I

23 didn't know who had the access to these facilities or who controlled them.

24 Q. What about the SJB? Because people were beaten and killed there,

25 weren't they?

Page 23255

1 A. I cannot confirm your allegation that someone was killed there.

2 Q. And the police --

3 A. I mean, I really cannot confirm that because I do believe that

4 this did not happen within the police. I allow for the possibility, but

5 once again, it is my opinion that such incidents did not happen.

6 Q. You've told us that these incidents did happen. You can't say who

7 did them.

8 Was any investigation made into the people who were responsible

9 for these unlawful killings, unlawful detention of these people?

10 A. Really, I cannot tell you which cases were investigated and which

11 cases were not. I did not work in the police. I'm not familiar with

12 that. But it is my assumption that in connection of these events in Novi,

13 the police applied the proper procedure.

14 Q. You can't tell us. Who can? Who can tell us that information?

15 A. Probably the people who were in charge of that, who were in charge

16 of relevant departments, military commanders for military issues, police

17 commanders for police issues.

18 Q. Okay. Now, what was happening at the football field attracted the

19 attention, didn't it, of UNPROFOR?

20 A. I believe that that was the case, that it was UNPROFOR that

21 noticed a group of people at the stadium, that that was what attracted

22 their attention.

23 Q. Did Mr. -- were you aware that Mr. Pasic and a member of the

24 executive council, Mr. Rade, went to speak to officials from UNPROFOR on

25 the 28th of May 1992?

Page 23256

1 A. I know that it was Mr. Pasic who was in contact with UNPROFOR

2 concerning these people.

3 Q. And the purpose was, wasn't it, to persuade UNPROFOR to let some

4 5.000 or so people, Muslims, leave the area?

5 A. Yes, that was the subject that they discussed, as far as I know.

6 Q. And none of these people who Mr. Pasic was trying to persuade

7 UNPROFOR to take were leaving because they wanted to, but because

8 effectively, the actions of the Serbs were driving them out, that --

9 that's right, isn't it? That's right, sir, isn't it?

10 A. I think you're trying to lead me to an answer which I cannot

11 answer with either yes or no. It is true that those people were fearful

12 because of the events that were taking place. It is also true that they

13 were the minority in the area where they lived, and they probably had

14 their own reasons for leaving the area, for wanting to leave the

15 municipality.

16 Q. They posed absolutely no threat at all, did they, to the Serb

17 domination of Bosanski Novi?

18 A. Yes, I do agree with that.

19 Q. And did Mr. Pasic tell you that he received a letter from

20 officials, UN officials, explaining to him that what he and the Serb

21 officials in Bosanski Novi were doing was a war crime?

22 A. No, he didn't tell me about that letter. All I know is that these

23 people left with the assistance of the International Red Cross and

24 UNPROFOR. This is completely new to me.

25 Q. He kept entirely to himself the fact that he had received a letter

Page 23257

1 telling him that this forced transfer or deportation of the Muslim

2 population was a war crime. Never told you a word about that. Is that

3 what you're telling us?

4 A. I don't remember that we discussed it.

5 Q. All right. And part of the reason for the deportation of the

6 Muslim population of Bosanski Novi was because of a decision made by the

7 Autonomous Region of Krajina, wasn't it?

8 A. What particular decision do you have in mind which would have been

9 the reason for the departure of these people?

10 Q. The one that was described as the "voluntary resettlement."

11 MS. KORNER: Have you got P227 here.

12 Q. Do you remember that one?

13 A. I would have to look it up here.

14 Q. You've already told us --

15 A. I really don't know if --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you help us, Mr. Cunningham, the tab number,

17 because we -- he was shown this document yesterday several times.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Tab number in his book is 10.


20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Tab 10.

22 Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, actually I don't -- I think it's later.

24 It's that first -- I think it's a separate one, and I'm sorry I didn't

25 pull it out. I'll find it, Your Honour, in the next break if it's

Page 23258

1 necessary. But it's not in this one. It's a separate one.

2 Q. Do you remember -- leave aside the document because I think it's a

3 later one. Do you remember a decision?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You do.

6 A. Such specific decisions implying the necessity of those people to

7 leave their homes, I don't remember them. I don't remember the particular

8 one you're talking about. I don't remember a decision whereby those

9 people would have been obliged to leave their homes. I really cannot

10 recall any such decision.

11 Q. All right. Just have a look for a moment, would you please, at

12 Document P717, which is a report.

13 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour, I've marked up the B/C/S copy

14 because it's a long report dealing with a number of municipalities. So if

15 we could have the English on the ELMO, though, please. It's page 8. And

16 I'll hand the witness a marked B/C/S copy.

17 Actually, I can tell you what page it is. In the B/C/S it's -- I

18 can't, never mind. Just hand that to the witness. Thank you.

19 Q. This was a report on a number -- to the Ministry of the Interior

20 from the CSB dealing with a number of municipalities. If we look, please,

21 at the part that's headed "reception centres in the Municipality of

22 Bosanski Novi," there's no word about the football -- about the fire

23 station or the police station or the Hotel Una, but the football field.

24 You'll see in paragraph 3: "In the Mlakve stadium on the 11th of June

25 1992 members of the army from the area of the municipality quartered and

Page 23259

1 provided security for 652 men of Muslim ethnicity fit for military service

2 from the area of the Japra Valley whom the army had sent back from the

3 railway station near Doboj, of whom 12 were younger than 18 and 27 older

4 than 60."

5 That was how they had come to be put into the football field,

6 didn't they? They'd attempted to leave and been turned back.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he explained this yesterday.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes, he did.

9 Q. And it had nothing to do with the police keeping them there for

10 their own security, either, according to this paragraph, because if you

11 read the next paragraph: "The employees of the SJB in Bosanski Novi had

12 no part at all in these activities."

13 A. First of all, I have to apologise for not following completely

14 because I was given a different page, not the one containing what you have

15 just read out. I tried to follow and read at the same time. But clearly,

16 my recollection is not very well as far as this time is concerned.

17 Q. You're quite right.

18 A. Of course, it was the police and not military units, so I accept

19 I made a mistake.

20 Q. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, it's my fault. I gave you the wrong

21 part of the report?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction of the interpreter: The military and

23 not the police.


25 Q. Now, let's have a look, please. I think you've now got the right

Page 23260

1 part of the report, the next paragraph: "The resettlement of citizens

2 from the Municipality of Bosanski Novi. In the period from the beginning

3 of the hostilities in the Municipality of Bosanski Novi until the 16th of

4 August 1992 the resettlement of citizens has also occurred. As a result

5 of frequent firing from the axis of the villages of Krslje and Rujiska --"

6 It's that the one you've -- have you got the right one now?

7 MS. KORNER: Usher, can you give them back to me. It doesn't help

8 to mark if you hand over the wrong copies.

9 Thank you. I'll tell you what. I think we'll give you the

10 whole...

11 Q. All right, do you see that? "As a result of frequent firing from

12 these villages," those are Serb villages, aren't they?

13 A. Yes, the first two are Serb villages.

14 Q. And then it describes about the first attempt to leave the

15 municipality, 3.500. And then this: "Pursuant to the decision on the

16 voluntary resettlement of citizens of the Government of the Autonomous

17 Region of Krajina and the order of the Crisis Staff of the Municipality of

18 Bosanski Novi on the criteria for voluntary resettlement, 5.680 people

19 with proper documents left the municipality of Bosanski Novi on the 23rd

20 of July 1992 and emigrated with the assistance of UNPROFOR and the High

21 Commission..." et cetera.

22 "Before we unregistered their official residences, these citizens

23 gave statements before the competent municipal organs that their

24 resettlement was voluntary, indicated the status of their immovable and

25 movable property, and the men liable to military service obtained

Page 23261

1 exemptions from military service because they were changing their place of

2 residence."

3 Do you remember that?

4 A. I really cannot remember all the details, but it is true that

5 these people left the area at the time, the area of the municipality, and

6 it is also true that attempts were made for the whole thing to be carried

7 out in a most humane and civilised manner to the extent it was possible,

8 in view of the circumstances.

9 Q. Effectively, first of all -- not effectively, you, according to

10 this report, you in Bosanski Novi, you in the crisis staff issued your

11 decision as a result of a decision made by the Autonomous Region of

12 Krajina, didn't you?

13 A. I really cannot remember. But from this document, I don't think

14 that the decisions are linked. The crisis staff decisions concerned the

15 criteria for voluntary resettlement. The criteria on the basis of which

16 one can conclude that the resettlement was voluntary. I cannot remember

17 any other acts, any other documents to that effect. But this particular

18 document doesn't show that these decisions were linked.

19 Q. I'm so sorry. What does "pursuant to the decision on the

20 voluntary resettlement of the Government of the Autonomous Region of

21 Krajina..." What does "pursuant" mean in your perception?

22 A. I'm really not in a position to explain this. I'm not able to

23 give you an explanation. This was written by someone else. I don't know

24 what the author of the text meant. The fact remains that we had to deal

25 with the consequence of a large number of people wanting to leave the

Page 23262

1 area. And on several occasions, as far as I know and I had been informed,

2 there had been interventions on the part of the leadership of the Serbian

3 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the effect that we should prohibit

4 these people from leaving the area. We were torn apart, so to speak, and

5 it was difficult to work and act in a chaos of that kind. And I really

6 cannot remember the specific contents of these two decisions.

7 Q. Let's have a look at another part of this report, please, which is

8 the English -- well, it's the sort of separate report from Bosanski Novi

9 itself, which is -- it's 011109856 at the top. And I'll give the witness,

10 I hope, the...

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours, can I point out an error in

12 translation at line -- excuse me, page 57, line 57 [sic].

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 57, line 57 as well?

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Transcript reads that "we should prohibit these

15 people from leaving the area." I'm told by Mr. Vujic that the witness

16 testified that he said that "we are prohibiting these people from leaving

17 the area." So if that needs to be clarified with the witness, I wanted to

18 bring that to the Court's attention.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: The transcript that I have here, which you should

20 have as well, is "on several occasions as far as I know, and I had been

21 informed, there had been interventions on the part of the leadership of

22 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that we should prohibit

23 these people from leaving the area." Now, you're saying that the witness

24 said: "That we are prohibiting these people from leaving the area."

25 Do you understand the point raised by Mr. Cunningham? Are you in

Page 23263

1 a position to give us the right version, the corrected version? What did

2 you actually say, Mr. Dejanovic?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I understand your

4 intervention, and it is an important one indeed. So -- could you please

5 repeat to me once again what the transcript says.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The transcript said that you had information at a

7 certain point that the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had

8 given instructions that you should prohibit these people from leaving the

9 area. And then you continued: "We were torn apart so to speak and it was

10 difficult to work in that kind of chaos."

11 It's being suggested that you never said what I read out to you,

12 but that you said that you had received instructions that you should

13 prohibit these people from -- that you were prohibiting these people from

14 leaving the area. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Cunningham, but I'm

15 confused as well.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll defer to the witness because he's answered.

18 I'll defer to the witness.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a significant difference.

20 I don't think that I made a mistake. My words were probably

21 misinterpreted. We were called upon by the leadership of Republika Srpska

22 who told us that there had been complaints to the effect that we were not

23 allowing the complaints made by the Muslims population, that the

24 authorities in the municipality were not allowing them to leave, to go

25 where they wanted to go. So that was the kind of intervention that they

Page 23264

1 had, that we should not prohibit the people from leaving the area and

2 going where they wanted to go.

3 On the other hand, speaking of a decision like that, a mass

4 departure of population from the area of the municipality obviously was

5 not a good thing. So these are the two extremes, the two extreme points

6 that I'm talking about, that I was talking about when I said that we were

7 torn apart.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Dejanovic and thank you,

9 Mr. Cunningham.

10 Ms. Korner.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have slight problems at the moment. I

12 know where it is in English. I thought I'd marked it, but I'm not sure I

13 have.

14 It's -- if we can have on the ELMO, please -- can you give me the

15 report you've got there in English.

16 Yes, that's what I want on the ELMO. And I'd like to see if I can

17 find the B/C/S. It's possibly page B0032543, in B/C/S. Yes, here it is.

18 Or is it? No, 43, sorry. No, it isn't.

19 Q. This is a further part of the report specifically from

20 Bosanski Novi.

21 A. [In English] This is Sanski Most. This is Sanski Most.

22 Q. Right. Can I -- I know that you read and speak English, so can

23 you look at what it says on the ELMO, and if there's any problem we'll

24 find the B/C/S for you.

25 "Pursuant to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 23265

1 Ministry of Defence decision, the decision of the Government of the

2 Autonomous Region" and so on, "the confiscation of illegally acquired

3 weapons." It sets out the background, which we've already dealt with.

4 Then the attack alleged on a military police patrol in the village of

5 Blagaj Rijeka. And we've found the B/C/S now, so you can have that,

6 please.

7 And then this: "As a result, a series of combat operations were

8 directed against areas and villages with a majority Muslim population.

9 Thus, on the 24th of May 1992, the entire population of the Japra Valley

10 villages was put up in the central part of Blagaj Japra. After the burial

11 of a member of the military police who had been killed during an attack on

12 Prijedor, combat operations took place in the Prekosanje suburb." Is that

13 the suburb of the town of Bosanski Novi?

14 A. [Interpretation] Yes, it's a part of Bosanski Novi. Bosanski Novi

15 itself is not very large, but it is a part of it.

16 Q. "All the combat operations mentioned above were carried out by

17 armed, uniformed men who were either self-organised or members of the

18 Territorial Defence or JNA combat units..."

19 Now, I asked you - I don't know how long ago now - whether you

20 were aware that the JNA had taken part in an attack - I say the JNA, the

21 VRS as it was by then - on the Bosanski Novi town.

22 A. I was not aware of it. And I think that the JNA as an

23 organisation did not take part in it. This is not an appropriate

24 document. I see from the English translation that it says here "members

25 of the JNA," so you can say that members, some members did do that. But I

Page 23266

1 don't think that there were any planned operations targeting those

2 civilians.

3 Q. Take the B/C/S, please.

4 A. This is not the right document. This is the wrong document. It's

5 not the document that you're talking about. This is a report about the

6 reception centres.

7 Q. Try that. I think I may have actually highlighted the right part.

8 Is that it?

9 A. Yes, that should be it.

10 Q. Right. Now, that says, doesn't it, if you look at the B/C/S,

11 "members of the Territorial Defence or JNA combat units"?

12 A. It says here: Self-organised or members of the TO or of combat

13 units, and it also says here that members of the public security station

14 did not take part in it. I still maintain that as far as I know, there

15 were no planned operations on the part of the JNA, but it is a fact that

16 members of these armed forces and, as it says here, "self-organised

17 persons," committed what they had committed.

18 Q. All right. Let's move to a further part of this report. I'll

19 give you that. That is marked. And we need to -- the English, it's

20 01109860. Do you see there, the next day, this deals with the refugees

21 again from the Blagaj Japra: "The next day, the 10th of June 1992, 652

22 men fit for work were taken off the convoys in the Doboj area, returned to

23 the Bosanski Novi Municipality where on instructions from the crisis

24 staff, they were put up at the Mlakve collection centre."

25 Do you agree that you gave instructions about that, you, the

Page 23267

1 crisis staff?

2 A. I don't remember the instructions, the specific instructions. I

3 described yesterday the events pertaining to these men, and finally they

4 were accommodated in the Mlakve stadium. I don't remember the crisis

5 staff having discussed this. And let me reiterate, I don't mean to defend

6 myself or to explain why I don't remember. I have to say that these were

7 chaotic days, and I spent most of my time in Kostajnica.

8 Q. So you say, sir. And may I suggest to you that that's simply

9 untrue. You were the head of the SDK in Bosanski Novi; you were a member

10 of the crisis staff. I suggest to you that where you were was in

11 Bosanski Novi itself.

12 A. I did not deny the fact that I was the chairman of the municipal

13 board and that I worked at the SDK, but I have to stress that in the

14 critical period, in the several days, I focussed all my attention to the

15 events in Kostajnica. I do not deny that such an instruction may have

16 been given, but I myself cannot remember it.

17 Q. But nothing was happening in Kostajnica. Why would you spend, as

18 you explain, these critical days in Kostajnica?

19 A. I was making efforts to prevent things from happening there. That

20 is why I spent my time there.

21 Q. All right. And finally, on that same page, we see yet again, and

22 this time the word used is "proceeding" in English "from a decision on the

23 voluntary moving out of citizens issued by the Government of the AR

24 Krajina." Is that the word in your language?

25 A. I require some assistance here. Where is this passage that you've

Page 23268

1 just read to me?

2 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]...

3 A. Sorry, sorry.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Two paragraphs further down, yeah.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it. Can you now please

6 repeat your question, because as you were asking it, I wasn't following.


8 Q. The word there, was it the same word way was used in the earlier

9 one, which is translated in English as "pursuant" or is it a different

10 word which is now translated in English as "proceeding," which perhaps

11 makes it clearer?

12 A. "Proceeding from."

13 Q. It's quite clear, isn't it, that the author of this report is

14 firmly of the view that everything that was done in respect of that came

15 about as a result of the decision made by the Krajina Crisis Staff?

16 A. The fact is that he's referring to the decision as a source, but I

17 don't know why the author of this report is doing it. My assumption is

18 that, as I have just said, that this was because of the chaos that reigned

19 and because we were torn between the two extremes that I spoke about. And

20 that is why when reports were drafted, documents that were available were

21 used as reference. But I really didn't -- cannot say what the author of

22 the report wanted to say -- what he meant.

23 Q. It was written, wasn't it, by your friend, the police chief,

24 Mr. Kutlija?

25 A. I assume so, but I don't know.

Page 23269

1 Q. I'm sorry. We'll give you the last page. I beg your pardon.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 10. Ljubomir Kutlija.


4 Q. And he was a member of the crisis staff, wasn't he?

5 A. By virtue of his position, I think that he was supposed to attend

6 the sessions of the crisis staff.

7 Q. No, he was on the crisis staff, wasn't he?

8 A. Pursuant to a decision of the Republika Srpska Government, he was

9 on the crisis staff.

10 Q. So he was in a position to know what orders had been issued by the

11 crisis staff and what the source of those orders was.

12 A. I assume so.

13 Q. All right. And this was an order dressed up -- euphemistically

14 called "voluntary resettlement" which was an order to ethnically cleanse,

15 wasn't it?

16 A. I do not agree with this statement. This was an order about the

17 criteria for voluntary resettlement or moving out. I don't remember what

18 the criteria were, what one had to do for the moving out of these citizens

19 to be carried out in as civilised and humane manner as possible. I

20 believe that the criteria had to do with this, and not with the fact that

21 they would be forced to move or that they had to move out.

22 Q. Just one thing before we look at the actual results. You told us

23 yesterday that as far as you were concerned, and you referred to it again

24 today, that you were keeping the peace in Bosanska Kostajnica and that -

25 here we are - you were very successful in keeping the peace, that there

Page 23270

1 were no victims, murdered people, you defined it as. It's on page 45.

2 Do you remember saying that?

3 A. Please let me clarify. When I say "very successful," I mean to

4 the best that could be achieved in the given circumstances. And let me

5 just explain what the overall situation was like. I want to stress once

6 again that this was something that I did as much as I could, to the best

7 of my abilities given the circumstances.

8 Q. But all I want to put to you is you're not suggesting that Muslims

9 weren't murdered, are you, in Bosanska Kostajnica? Are you suggesting

10 that?

11 A. I'm talking about the period --

12 Q. During the period 1992, for example?

13 A. I'm talking about the period, a very short period that had to do

14 with the confiscation of weapons. But there were victims in Bosanska

15 Kostajnica throughout the war. I don't remember when exactly. But I'm

16 now talking about the period around the 12th of May.

17 Q. So when you said that you kept the peace, there were no killings,

18 you were referring only to the limited period of disarmament around the

19 12th of May?

20 A. That is correct. I was referring to that period when I said that

21 there were no killings, that nobody was murdered.

22 Q. All right.

23 Now, finally, I would like you to look, please, sir, at the

24 Exhibit P60. Now, can you turn to -- this is the census document. Can

25 you turn to Bosanski Novi, please, which is on the second page of the

Page 23271

1 actual listing.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Novi Grad, no?

3 MS. KORNER: Mm-hmm. It's not called Novi Grad. It's called

4 Bosanski Novi. It changed it's name sometime in 1993, didn't it?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it. Page 5.


8 Q. In 1991, when the census was taken, there were -- sorry, just a

9 minute -- 25.000 Serbs, just over, and 14.000 Muslims. Do you agree?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Now, have a look, please, at Exhibit P56.

12 Could you turn, please, in that -- there it's called Novi Grad,

13 because it's 1993. This is a report done by the Banja Luka CSB. It's on

14 the second page of the English. First page, I suppose.

15 "Moved out, Muslims, 13.000; Croats, 40.000."


17 MS. KORNER: 40, sorry.

18 Q. Serbs, no data. Moved out, none. And 3.400 moved in.

19 1.000 Muslims left in the municipality by May 1993. Do you accept

20 that's a fairly accurate figure?

21 A. I really cannot discuss these figures. I don't know. The values

22 can be approximate, but I do not know whether the figures are accurate. I

23 don't know what they're based on. However, it is obviously, and I'm not

24 denying it, that the majority of Muslims had moved out of the municipality

25 of Bosanski Novi in the course of the war.

Page 23272

1 Q. No, not in the course of the war; in the course of less than a

2 year effectively. That's right, isn't it?

3 A. I don't know. I cannot confirm the data here because I'm not

4 familiar with them. I don't know on the basis of what the Security

5 Services Centre produced these figures. But I do not deny the fact that

6 people had moved out from the area, that there had been people who moved

7 out.

8 Q. Their mosques -- the mosques had all been destroyed, hadn't they?

9 A. That's correct. Unfortunately.

10 Q. The houses were either -- their houses were either burnt or

11 occupied by Serbs. That's right, isn't it?

12 A. It is mostly true. I have to note that we had a large number of

13 refugees. In most cases, the refugees were put in those houses, not the

14 local population.

15 Q. Their cattle had been looted; their houses had been looted.

16 That's right, isn't it?

17 A. That's correct, yes.

18 Q. And in essence, this was one of the most successfully ethnically

19 cleansed areas in the whole of the Krajina, wasn't it?

20 A. I don't know if I can seek assistance here, but I have this

21 feeling that things are being put to me which are not fair. I do not

22 believe that there was the intention to carry out the ethnic cleansing.

23 Q. Whether --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.


Page 23273

1 Q. You say it wasn't intended --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, Mr. Dejanovic, I will only stop

3 Ms. Korner when indeed I agree with you that the question is unfair. But

4 I don't think that the question that she put to you was unfair. I mean,

5 it's a question which you can answer. And in your own way, you have

6 answered it.

7 Yes, Ms. Korner.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask, do I have to seek

9 your intervention, or will you intervene on your own discretion?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I will not interfere with the questions put until or

11 unless we come to the conclusion that that question shouldn't be put. But

12 it doesn't mean to say that if a question has been put and we haven't

13 interfered that you have a duty to answer that question if you feel that

14 that question can expose you to criminal proceedings. I am saying this to

15 protect you. In other words, our duty here is to protect each and every

16 witness that comes forward. No witness can be forced to answer questions

17 which can be incriminatory in their own nature unless there is reason for

18 us to give the direction nonetheless. And if we do oblige you to answer a

19 question which could be incriminatory if answered, then whatever you say

20 cannot be made use of in any proceedings outside this Tribunal. So I'm

21 making this clear to you.

22 But I will not stop Ms. Korner or anyone else for that matter from

23 putting questions to you which may be very uncomfortable to answer. But

24 uncomfortable is one thing. Answering them and exposing yourself to

25 criminal proceedings here or elsewhere is another matter. So if at any

Page 23274

1 moment you feel you may find yourself in that awkward position, please do

2 look up to us, ask for our intervention, and we will decide how far and to

3 what extent to protect you. But we are here to protect you as a witness.

4 Yes, Ms. Korner.


6 Q. And effectively, that ethnic cleansing took place directly upon

7 the decisions, starting with the level of the republic, passed down

8 through the Krajina, decisions designed to separate the Serbs from the

9 other nationalities.

10 A. In my opinion, the war is a very serious thing, and especially for

11 a group of people who are in the minority. The fear that the minority

12 felt probably caused them to want to leave the area. The same thing

13 happened in the areas where Serbs were in the minority. To my mind, these

14 were the reasons that prompted so many Muslims to leave the municipality

15 in the course of the war.

16 In the areas where we tried to achieve a calming of the situation,

17 a larger number of Muslims remained in the areas where they lived. This

18 is all I can say.

19 Q. At the moment, I'm just asking you this: Do you now accept, and

20 you have been reminded of all the documents and all the decisions, that

21 what you did in Bosanski Novi was as a direct result of the instructions,

22 the decisions, the orders which came from the republic level and from the

23 Autonomous Region of Krajina level?

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to the form of the question

25 because it calls on him to answer about two distinct entities, the

Page 23275

1 republic level, and the ARK. So it's a compound question.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he can take them separately.

3 Please take them separately. And if you need Ms. Korner to repeat

4 the question, we'll have her read it.

5 MS. KORNER: With respect, the question is that the orders start

6 at the top and are channelled through the mid-level. It's not a compound

7 question.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And I still renew my objection.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But the way it is on the -- it shows on the

10 transcript, well, would justify the comment made by Mr. Cunningham

11 because -- the previous question had hinted that, or suggested that, but

12 this one didn't.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: At the moment, I'm asking you this: Do you accept

15 and you have been reminded of all the documents, that what you did in

16 Bosanski Novi was as a direct result of the instructions, decisions, the

17 orders which came from the republic level and from the Autonomous Region

18 of Krajina level?

19 So they are taken -- anyway, let's stop here.

20 MS. KORNER: Can we have an answer to the question? It's my last

21 question.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Dejanovic, can you provide us with an answer now

23 very shortly so we can have the break on time.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that everything that

25 happened was the consequence of the general crisis, general state of war,

Page 23276

1 and the feeling of insecurity among the minorities, regardless of who the

2 minorities were, living in an environment with a majority from another

3 ethnic group. And I think that this gave rise to the consequences you

4 have just described.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That was not the question. We'll take it up after

6 the break. The question was, and please think about it during the next 25

7 minutes. The question that was put to you is the suggestion that what

8 you - that means the crisis staff in Bosanski Novi - did was the direct

9 result of instructions, decisions and orders that came from higher up.

10 And higher up is meant republic level and the Autonomous Region of

11 Krajina. So think about it and give us an answer as we reconvene. Yes,

12 Mr. Cunningham.

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, but I'm

14 informed by Mr. Vujic that he said that it was not the consequences of the

15 order, and that didn't get translated.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have it in my transcript.

17 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Nor do I.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you actually answer that question and say that

19 you never acted upon the instructions, decisions?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the end of my previous answer, I

21 said this was not the consequence, not that we never acted in accordance

22 with them, but that this was not the consequence of the orders. In my

23 previous answer, I tried to explain that this was the consequence of the

24 general situation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. We'll have a break of 25 minutes.

Page 23277

1 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So, again, once more, Mr. Cunningham, require how

4 much time? Still in the 5-minute region?

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Probably closer to 7 or 8.

6 MS. KORNER: I've finished.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You've finished.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Cunningham:

12 Q. At the end -- at the very end of the business day yesterday,

13 Ms. Korner asked you who you were working for during this time period,

14 and you told us that you were work for the SDK. How many employees at

15 that time did you have working with you at the SDK?

16 A. I think that there were about 10, between 10 and 14.

17 Q. And how many non-Serbs were working with you at the SDK?

18 A. Two ladies who were non-Serbs.

19 Q. And did they continue to work with you throughout the period of

20 May and June of 1992?

21 A. In that period and later, yes, they continued. I don't know what

22 happened after I left.

23 Q. And when did you leave the SDK?

24 A. In 1993, I believe it was. In March I was elected to a different

25 position. And later, in 1994, I returned briefly to the SDK.

Page 23278

1 Q. Okay. I'm going to change topics.

2 Ms. Korner showed you an exhibit. It was P186 which was a

3 document from the ARK Crisis Staff dealing with per capita donations of

4 30 dinars to the ARK. Do you remember that document?

5 A. I do. I think it is a document of the executive council of the

6 municipality, not the crisis staff, if my memory serves me right.

7 Q. Let's look at the documents which are P186 and P2539. If we could

8 look at P186 first.

9 A. So the document that speaks about the distribution of...

10 Is this P186?

11 Q. The reason I can't answer is --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 186 should be the decision or the order of the

13 municipal executive committee of the Bosanski Novi Municipal Assembly.


15 Q. Now, that document indicates, am I correct, that --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, sorry. That's P2539. 186 is the

17 communication from the Autonomous Region of Krajina to the presidents of

18 the municipal assemblies supposedly of the municipalities that are

19 mentioned in the document itself.


21 Q. Now, 2539 is the document that -- P2539 should be a document that

22 is a Novi document. Do you have that document in front of you?

23 MS. KORNER: No, it's 2547.

24 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I apologise. I apologise, that was my mistake.

25 Do you have that document, sir? I'd like for you to look at 2547.

Page 23279

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm think I do.

2 MS. KORNER: It's my fault. It's 2539. I'm sorry,

3 Mr. Cunningham.

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you for restoring my sanity.

5 Q. Let's start from the top. I wanted you to look at P186 which is a

6 document from the crisis staff sent out to the municipalities. And I

7 think you've looked at that document. Am I correct, sir?

8 A. Yes, now I understand which document you have in mind.

9 Q. Now the other document I want you to look at is 2539, which is a

10 Novi document, and I believe that that -- this is -- tell us what this

11 document says. I don't want you to tell us the whole thing, but I want

12 you to read the relevant portion about -- I think there's an order or

13 something in there. So read the relevant portion that deals with the

14 money.

15 A. Okay. It is stated here that the executive council of the

16 Bosanski Novi Municipality hereby orders the secretariat for

17 administration, that is, to a lower-level body, that for the purposes of

18 financing the institutions of the Autonomous Region of Krajina a specified

19 amount should be deposited.

20 Q. Okay. Now, do you know whether that order was ever acted upon;

21 that is, whether the money was ever actually transferred to the ARK?

22 A. I don't know that. I don't remember.

23 Q. Fair enough. I'd like for you to now in your book go to tab

24 number 10. Tab number 10 is Prosecutor's Exhibit 227, which is the ARK --

25 Gazette of the ARK. I want you to read to yourself the introduction of

Page 23280

1 that document where it says: "Pursuant to the decision..." Just read

2 silently to yourself down to where it says "decision."

3 A. Sorry, are you referring to the first decision in the binder?

4 Q. The very first decision, the one that's marked number 1.

5 A. Yes, I've read the introduction.

6 Q. Now, looking down at paragraph number 5 where it deals with

7 paramilitary formations and the illegal possession of weapons and

8 ammunition, where did the instructions with regard to disarmament

9 originate? Did they originate from the ARK or did they originate from a

10 decision of the Ministry of Defence?

11 A. It is clear from the preamble of the decision, from the

12 introductory part of the decision that the decision maker is referring to

13 a decision of the Ministry of Defence of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

14 and Hercegovina --

15 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't get the number.


17 Q. Okay. That's fine. I'm done with that document. I want to ask

18 you about something you said earlier today. At page 41, line 13 of your

19 testimony today, you talked about how municipalities had an obligation to

20 provide logistics or logistical support to the military. Could you please

21 explain to the Chamber what you meant by that.

22 A. First of all, the food, supplying the military with the basic

23 necessities. The supplying of the military at the time was not a quality

24 one. I'm now referring to a longer period of time as to what the

25 obligations of the civil authorities were. First of all, food supplies,

Page 23281

1 very often provisions of fuel. That's all I can think of at the moment.

2 That kind of supplies or provisions.

3 Q. Did the supplying of the food and the fuel, did that in turn allow

4 the civilian authorities to issue binding commands to the military?

5 A. Absolutely no.

6 Q. I'd like you in your book to turn to tab number 9. Tab number 9

7 contains Prosecutor's Exhibit 157, which is an excerpt from the work of

8 the municipal crisis staffs of the Serbian People. This is the document

9 attributed to Prime Minister Dzeric, 26 April 1992. On the second page,

10 please look at paragraph 14. This is something you talked about with

11 Ms. Korner earlier today.

12 She was talking to you about paragraph 14 where it says: "The

13 submission of weekly reports to regional and state organisations." Were

14 you aware, actually aware of any reports that were submitted by the

15 Novi Crisis Staff to the ARK Crisis Staff?

16 A. I don't know of any specific reports. I can only make assumptions

17 in this case.

18 Q. Final question has to deal whereby hopefully my final question has

19 to deal with following up on what Mr. President asked you about the

20 supreme command of the military, the supreme command in time of war. In a

21 time of war, who would be the supreme command, if you know? I know you're

22 certainly not a military expert, but I believe you did your compulsory JNA

23 service. Correct?

24 A. You're quite right, yes. I served -- I'm not an expert for

25 military or constitutional matters, but I believe I answered the previous

Page 23282

1 question. It was always the presidency.

2 Q. I'm told that there might have been a nontranslation, so I'm going

3 to go back and try to clear up a question.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do, Mr. Cunningham.


6 Q. This deals with tab number 10, decision number 1. I asked you

7 based on your review of this document, with respect to paragraph 5, where

8 did the decision with regard to disarmament originate? Did it originate

9 within the Ministry of Defence or within the ARK?

10 A. I can read out what it says clearly. "Pursuant to a decision

11 issued by the ministry of the National Defence of the Serbian Republic of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina" followed by the number and the date.

13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And that's all the questions I have. Thank you,

14 sir.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there was one matter. During our

17 searches, a document came to light which had not previously been disclosed

18 to the Defence. And so we gave it to Mr. Cunningham after the last break.

19 I can tell you, Your Honours -- can I show Your Honours a copy. I was

20 going to simply apply to tender it after the witness had left. But it

21 occurs to me that we ought to ask, if Your Honours agree and

22 Mr. Cunningham doesn't object, to ask the witness whether he's familiar

23 with this document.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see what it's all about.

25 Has everybody had the chance to read it? What's your position on

Page 23283

1 this, Mr. Cunningham? Two points: One is the tendering the document as

2 an exhibit; second, putting the document to the witness, asking him

3 whether he's aware of it.

4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I wish it would have been tendered earlier, and I

5 understand sometimes it happens when documents are not discovered as soon

6 as they should be. Understanding the Rules of Evidence in this Court and

7 the discretion that's left to the Chamber, and also recognising that we

8 have provided documents at a late date, I don't think it would be

9 equitable for me to object on the basis of timeliness of the disclosure.

10 With respect to questions to be put to the witness with respect to the

11 document, I would leave that to the discretion of the Court.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I'm not asking to reopen my

13 cross-examination, simply whether he's able to -- whether he's familiar

14 with the document.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So, the document is being accepted.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And is being tendered as a Prosecution exhibit.

18 MS. KORNER: It's P -- Exhibit 2714.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And usher, could I kindly --

20 MS. KORNER: Here's a copy for the witness.


22 And Mr. Dejanovic, just have a look at that document which

23 purports to have been signed for and on behalf of Radomir Pasic dated 8 --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you can give me a moment, Your

25 Honour, please. It's not really legible.

Page 23284


2 Very simple question: Have you ever seen this document before?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be perfectly frank, no, I have

4 not seen this document. I'm not familiar with it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous interpretation continues]...

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a series of public communiques,

7 public addresses, I accept the possibility of the existence of such a

8 document. It was only part of a range of such interventions. But I never

9 saw this document, and I never dealt with it specifically.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Judge Taya is drawing my attention to ask for

11 a clarification from you. The third paragraph, third paragraph says:

12 "Since members of the Serbian army have been engaged in these duties day

13 and night, and due to their" -- what's the next word? Is it fatigue?

14 Desperation? What is it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fatigue.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Fatigue. Okay. And is there the word

17 "desperation"? Can you continue reading, if you can decipher the letters?

18 I know it's difficult, Mr. Dejanovic. I'm not asking the impossible from

19 you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe though I cannot say with

21 certainty that we are talking about bitterness here, not deception. I'm

22 not sure that this is the word. The interpreters will confirm. There is

23 a difference between bitterness and desperation. I think that here we're

24 talking about bitterness.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters do not have the

Page 23285

1 text, so we're not aware of the exact wording.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that, and my apologies to the

3 interpreters for putting you in this position.

4 I think we can leave it at that.

5 Now, we have some questions from the Bench. We're going to start

6 with Judge Janu.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Dejanovic, did you really believe at the summer

9 and -- spring and summer 1992 that the resettlement of the citizens was

10 voluntary?

11 A. I think that throughout my testimony I never said that it was a

12 voluntary resettlement. I think I even emphasised that there could have

13 been no voluntary resettlement considering the circumstances in which

14 these people lived. I said on a couple of occasions that we did our best

15 for this to be carried out in a most humane and civilised manner.

16 JUDGE JANU: And in your opinion, was the Serbian population in

17 comparison with Muslim, Bosniak population in a different condition?

18 A. Bearing in mind the fact that Serbs constituted majority, and

19 Bosniaks minority in the area, and also in view of the fact that there was

20 already a war going on, obviously Serbs were in a better position, so to

21 speak, considering the circumstances. So they were not in the same

22 situation.

23 JUDGE JANU: So you explain the fact that a number of Muslims who

24 left your municipality and other municipalities in Bosnia is much higher

25 than Serb just with this feeling being minority or majority, or belonging

Page 23286

1 to the majority or minority?

2 A. Yes, considering the circumstances and the civil war that was

3 going on.

4 JUDGE JANU: My second question is: Are you still a member of the

5 SDS?

6 A. No, I'm not.

7 JUDGE JANU: And before, were you a member of the League of

8 Communists?

9 A. No. I was never involved in that. I was not a member of the

10 League of Communists.

11 JUDGE JANU: That's all. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 Judge Taya, do you have any questions?


15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have any questions either, which means that

16 your testimony ends here, Mr. Dejanovic, and you're free to go back home.

17 You will be escorted by Madam Usher, and you will receive all the

18 assistance you need to make your trip back home possible. And on behalf

19 of the Trial Chamber and on behalf of the Tribunal itself, I should like

20 to thank you for having come over to give evidence, and we all wish you a

21 safe journey back home.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So next week, we start on Monday, we're sitting in

25 the morning. We have three sittings -- we have four sittings next week.

Page 23287

1 You still have to confirm to me, Madam Registrar, what the situation for

2 the 11th. Because yesterday I think it was tricky. We didn't have...

3 THE REGISTRAR: We already reserved a courtroom, Courtroom II.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: For the 11th in the morning. We are sitting four

5 days, Monday through Thursday, always in the morning. Correct?


7 JUDGE AGIUS: And the next witness --

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just before you move on, can we -- we

9 are under the impression that we are doing one of these turn and turnabout

10 weeks, that it was Monday in the mornings, Tuesday and Wednesday in the

11 afternoons.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, but not next week. That is the week after.

13 MS. KORNER: The week after, is it?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next witness is the one with the

15 protective measures, correct, Mr. Cunningham?

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It is, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And he is scheduled to last a day and a half?


19 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other three witnesses, you still intend to

20 bring over in the course of next week?

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's my understanding at this point,

22 Your Honour. And I'll inform the Court and the Prosecution if there's any

23 changes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: To confirm, we're talking of number 63, 64, and 11.

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Correct, Your Honour.

Page 23288


2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think in respect of the protective

3 measures, Your Honours decided to have a talk to him, and then decide

4 whether --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: At first, yes, but I think we've decided to adopt

6 that formality practically with every witness.

7 MS. KORNER: As I say, the Prosecution don't raise an objection.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: On our side, it's not because we anticipate any

9 problems, but we want to make sure that what he may have told

10 Mr. Cunningham is indeed a real concern. That's all.

11 MS. KORNER: I think it was Mr. Ackerman.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, yeah.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just then briefly mention, I have

14 discussed this with Mr. Cunningham, but we would now request that as they

15 have had the meetings with all the witnesses that we receive now a full

16 list of who's actually coming. I understand that even though they've

17 already -- as they told us that four major witnesses won't be coming,

18 there may still be other witnesses who remain on their list or who are not

19 testifying. Your Honour, as important, as I say, because of the resources

20 that are otherwise devoted to a fruitless task. And if possible, we would

21 like the order, the rough order in which they're going to be coming, and

22 before Christmas, before the break at the end of week after next.

23 And secondly, the summaries really now should come as a package,

24 the full summaries. At the moment we still don't know who the third

25 witness is because there has been two conflicting descriptions given of

Page 23289

1 where he's from and what he's supposed to be doing. So -- if I've

2 already -- as I say, I've discussed it -- I'm only mentioning so it's

3 clear.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think Mr. Ackerman has talked to Ms. Korner

6 about providing her with the witnesses and their names, and I think that

7 they have reached an agreement on that, so I don't see that's a problem.

8 I think the confusion about Witness 64 I can address after Court with you

9 because I think it's clarified in the summaries that were sent over today.

10 If it isn't I'll -- we can talk to that after Court.

11 The final thing I'd like to say is on behalf of the Defence to

12 thank the Chamber for allowing Mr. Pytlik to attend. He's from California,

13 and generally they're not allowed in places like this, but we appreciate

14 the fact that the Chamber made an exception.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a pleasure. In fact, I think it's an

16 opportunity we would give gladly without reservation because it's an

17 education in itself, also to watch the way direct and cross are conducted

18 in these proceedings.

19 MR. PYTLIK: Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So I wish you all a nice weekend, and we will

21 reconvene Monday morning, 9.00. Thank you.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of

24 December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.