1 Wednesday, 11 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 This is the case number IT-99-36-T, The Prosecutor versus Radoslav
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Brdjanin, can you follow the proceedings in a language that
12 you can understand?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,
14 I can follow in a language I understand.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Please take a chair.
16 Any preliminary matters that you would like to raise?
17 MS. KORNER: You mean, you do not want me to introduce ourselves
18 any more?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sorry. Appearances for the Prosecution.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's Joanna Korner assisted by Denise
21 Gustin, case manager.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good afternoon, to you. Appearances
23 the Radoslav Brdjanin.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.
25 I'm with David Cunningham, Aleksandar Vujic, and Cynthia Dresden.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you and good afternoon to you too.
2 Okay. The documentation, we have most of it here. The problem,
3 almost had altercations with the Registrar today because of the limited
4 space we have in this courtroom to be able to have all the documents of
5 this case. But anyway, should we require more than we have, then we will
6 see how to go about it.
7 Preliminaries. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm confused and I must say distressed
9 regarding this particular witness that is coming here today, and we need
10 to go into private session, I suppose, to discuss it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session to discuss it.
12 To discuss what?
13 [Private session]
12 Pages 24648 to 24654 – redacted – private session.
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman, very shortly we will
12 be starting with the testimony of BT94, who is being recalled by the
13 Trial Chamber, still a Prosecution witness. Reason why we have decided to
14 recall him is that going through his testimony and also his diary, we did
15 come to the conclusion that there were several matters that we preferred
16 to have clarified, and also several other questions that we would like to
17 put arising out of his testimony and combined with his diary.
18 The result of this, we came to this conclusion rather after we sat
19 together and we discussed. We then elaborated, each Judge separately
20 first, a list of questions that we wanted to put to this witness. These
21 have been collated in one set. I will be conducting the examination in
22 the first place. As we go along, since this is a combined effort, as we
23 go along and while he is answering, say, the first question, it may well
24 be that Judge Janu or Judge Taya may have additional questions. So we
25 will continue like this. In other words, I'll start, but there may be
1 additional questions arising out of the questions or of the answer which
2 may be forthcoming from myself and the other two Judges, all right?
3 MS. KORNER: Sorry --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And then at the end, as we agreed on the sitting of
5 the 28th of January, you will both have opportunities to put questions to
6 the witness on matters arising out of the questions and answers --
7 questions that were put and his answers to us. Yes, Ms. Korner.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, first may I say, Your Honours may have
9 noticed Ms. Sutherland's hurried arrival in this courtroom, but just for
10 the purposes of the record she's here.
11 Secondly, in what order, Your Honour? Will it be
12 cross-examination, as it were, or examination by Mr. Ackerman and then
13 re-examination by --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not that important for me.
15 MS. KORNER: I would have thought that it makes -- I would suggest
16 it makes more sense. Because if he remains our witness, then Mr. Ackerman
17 has the right --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I think the way I see it, the logical way of
19 seeing it, is that once we have finished with our questions and answers, I
20 think I would give the witness back to you, and then Mr. Ackerman can
21 cross-examine arising out of our questions - it's not exactly a
22 cross-examination, but arising out of your questions. Yes, that could be
23 referred to as cross-examination.
24 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour. I was saying it was the other way
25 around. But you ask the questions first, then Mr. Ackerman, and then I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I was thinking of we go first, obviously, and
3 then you go immediately afterwards, and then Mr. Ackerman have
5 MS. KORNER: Well, that's what I mean. He's not actually
6 Mr. Ackerman's witness. He's actually a Prosecution witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly so you go first after us. And then he
8 goes last.
9 MS. KORNER: So I get two bites at the cherry, then, if I
10 re-examine. That's what I mean.
11 This is the slight complication. Your Honours are asking the
12 questions and have called him back. Arising out of that, the normal thing
13 would be, when Your Honours ask questions, you ask either party whether
14 they have any questions arising out of that. Normally then the Defence
15 would go first and the Prosecution go second.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: But he is a Prosecution witness.
17 MS. KORNER: Exactly. So I go last.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but I would do it the opposite way. But
19 anyway, if this is how you prefer it, this is how --
20 MR. ACKERMAN: No, he's a Prosecution witness, she has to go
21 first. That's just the way it is. You're absolutely right, Judge.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That is exactly what -- this is how I see it. I
23 think you go first immediately after us, and then he goes last.
24 MS. KORNER: That's the whole point, Your Honour, then I get two
25 chances, because I get a chance to re-examine after -- do you see what I
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, yes. Okay, all right. But I
3 think that's of minor importance.
4 MS. KORNER: I have no particular objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's of minor importance. But I think we were
6 talking at cross-purposes.
7 So I think we need to go into private session while he walks in,
8 no? Or not?
9 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, that doesn't help because --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Because of the facial distortion and whatever.
11 MS. KORNER: I hope they have worked on it. Your Honour, if it's
12 in private session, then if there was somebody in the public gallery, they
13 could see him come in. So We would have to go into closed and then --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Honestly, I can't see behind the glass, tainted
15 glass. But I don't think there is anyone there.
16 MS. KORNER: Okay. Well, in that case, Your Honour he can come in
17 and then the facial distortion...
18 THE REGISTRAR: Security has been informed before the hearing
19 start that we're going into this.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. So let's bring the witness in,
21 please. And whoever is responsible for --
22 THE REGISTRAR: Can we just pause for one minute so they can fix
23 the microphone.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So we remain in open session while he walks in.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I am pretty sure you were not expecting to see us
4 again. But welcome back to this Tribunal.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You know the procedure. You're going to be handed
7 the text of a solemn declaration. Please read it out aloud, and that's
8 your undertaking with us that you will be telling the truth in the course
9 of your testimony. Go ahead.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a chair. And let's start.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS BT94
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me explain to you first and foremost why you are
16 here once more. You testified last year in May and June -- in June, I
17 think. May and June. And recently we were through your testimony, and
18 also examining the details of your diary. And since then, of course, we
19 have also heard several other witnesses, and therefore we have had the
20 benefit of evidence on several matters that you touched upon in your
21 testimony which are recorded in your diary, or events which you did not
22 touch upon in your testimony, and we decided that it's the case of asking
23 you to come back here so that you can help us clear up our minds on
24 several issues.
25 I don't want to alarm you unduly. You will not be here for days
1 at length. I think your testimony will last maybe a day or two, after
2 which you will be able to go home. But before we start with the
3 testimony, I want to make sure of a couple of things. When did you arrive
4 here in The Hague? When did you get here?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On Monday.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: On Monday. Before you came here, were you
7 approached by anyone with regard to the subject matter of your testimony?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Since you became aware that you were going to be
10 recalled to give testimony, did anyone speak to you while you -- before
11 you had arrived here in The Hague?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was only told that I had to come
13 here, Your Honour. But no one explained why. No one gave any
14 explanations to that effect, and I arrived here on Monday at about 11.30,
15 here in The Hague. And I was only given my diary to look at it. And
16 yesterday and today, I had a chance at looking at some tapes. And that's
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Who spoke to you since your arrival here in
19 The Hague?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only Maria Kavall, and Kellie for
21 maybe some 15 minutes. I spoke for some five minutes with my dear
22 Prosecutor, Joanna, but she never seems to have time.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Why is she your dear?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand, I didn't hear.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Why is she your dear?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. She is a good
2 person. She is nice, and she always understood me. She understood how
3 much effort I invested into the things that I did. And it was only in
4 this sense that I meant this.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So when did you meet Ms. Korner since your arrival
6 here in The Hague?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was yesterday, and only
8 for some five minutes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And apart from Ms. Korner, did you meet anyone else
10 from the Prosecution team?
11 MS. KORNER: He just told you, Your Honour. He met an
12 investigator, and the interpreter who he called Maria.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Maria is an interpreter?
14 MS. KORNER: She is an interpreter.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And the investigator is?
16 MS. KORNER: Kellie Ward.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you ask you what you discussed with Kellie Ward,
18 with the investigator?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, we mostly
20 talked about my testimony. I was watching the tapes of my previous
21 testimony, and that's what we mostly talked about. We also touched upon
22 some of the details relating to the copy of my diary that had been sent to
23 me. And that's about it.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: What was the subject matter of the discussion? You
25 were reviewing your testimony on video?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And was he present all the time while you were
3 reviewing this testimony? Sorry, she. Was she present all the time?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was with Maria. She was in
5 charge of it, this interpreter, whereas Kellie would only show up for a
6 minute or two, ask me if I needed a coffee or if I wanted to go and have a
7 smoke, because I'm a passionate smoker, and that's why she would come.
8 And I had this feeling that she was controlling whether we were really
9 reviewing the video.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: But did you discuss the contents of your testimony
11 with Ms. Kellie Ward?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, no. I was
13 under the impression that Kellie was pretty satisfied with my testimony.
14 We did not discuss it. She only wanted to make sure that I took a good
15 look at it to remind myself, to refresh my memory.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Who gave you -- did you bring again a copy of your
17 diary with you, or were you given a copy of it here?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a copy of the diary back
19 home, and that is the copy that they had sent to me, and that's what we
20 discussed, as I've already said. I did not have, however, a copy of the
21 video containing my testimony. I was only given it now.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ask Ms. Ward or anyone else for that matter
23 to be handed any other documents?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I know that, in principle, I am
25 not entitled to this, and whatever she is aware that can be given to me,
1 she would give it to me. So I did not receive any of the documents, but I
2 was shown -- I was shown, I think, two or three videotapes containing some
3 material, news reports and so on, produced by the Banja Luka TV.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Had you seen these video reports before in your
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, in Banja Luka, while I was
7 still there.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: But were you shown anything or any kind of evidence
9 that you were not aware of before?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to tell you frankly, I had
11 seen all these reports previously, and I was surprised to see how few
12 materials there were. I was surprised. They did, however, tell me that
13 there were other tapes, but that there wasn't enough time for them to show
14 them to me. So I watched two tapes, in addition to my testimony, which
15 had nothing to do with the goings-on in Banja Luka.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Who suggested that you see -- watch these two
17 videos, these tapes?
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I thought I had made that clear. That
19 was my instruction.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him...
21 Was it you or Ms. Kellie --
22 MS. KORNER: No, no. I didn't personally show them. But I mean,
23 you know, the witness may have been shown by Ms. Ward, but I want to make
24 absolutely clear that it was my instruction he be shown these videos.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: What were you told when you were asked to -- or when
1 you were invited to watch these videos?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They asked me whether I had seen
3 these footages before. I said yes. And then they asked me who the
4 journalist was, and I told them. I told them the journalists' names
5 before they would appear on the screen, and that was all. And it was only
6 with Maria that I was watching these videos.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you at any time discuss with any of the member
8 of the team for the Prosecution your testimony of today and of tomorrow?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not. I even expected to
10 meet Ms. Joanna today, but she told me that she was unable to meet with me
11 before the end of my testimony. (Redacted)
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's suspend the sitting for three minutes,
16 four minutes. We go outside and we come back. The witness can leave the
17 courtroom, and we'll get him back when we tell you.
18 --- Break taken at 2.59 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 3.01 p.m.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I want to make an application. I
21 understand it's objected to.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: What application?
23 MS. KORNER: That part of the last answer given by the witness
24 relating to -- can we go into private session for a moment, please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session.
1 MS. KORNER: Very quickly.
2 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: After two years, I still have the template with the
2 name of Judge Hunt. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think you just asked me if I had
4 anything to say about the questions he was asked and answers that he
5 gave. I think you asked him very clearly about any conversations that he
6 had with representatives of the Prosecutor's Office. He obviously was not
7 truthful to you, if Joanna Korner's emails to us are truthful, they talk
8 about things that he -- conversations that he had with the Prosecutor and
9 things that he told the Prosecutor that he didn't tell you when you asked
10 him that open-ended question, so I think already he started out being
11 untruthful. And my submission is that's the way he has been since the day
12 he came here, first day. But that's another matter.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. I suppose you have nothing
14 else to add, Ms. Korner.
15 Our decision is as follows: We refer you in the first place to
16 the debate we had here on the -- in the sitting of the 28th of January.
17 And what happened on that day was that Ms. Korner rose and said: "The
18 only question is this. Your Honours dismissed him, is he allowed to
19 review the evidence he gave before Your Honours, however many months ago
20 it was before he comes back. I think it would probably be better if he
21 did because that -- then he would have some idea. But as I'm not entirely
22 sure the status, Your Honour, he remains our witness, of course, and we
23 are bringing him back at Your Honours' request for further questions. He
24 was given an opportunity to review his original statement before he
25 testified the first time, plus obviously the documents. Is he permitted
1 to review his testimony then?"
2 There was some exchange of discussion. And I'm reported as
3 saying: "But I see no problem in that. Do you see any problems, Judge
4 Taya, Judge Janu?" This doesn't show in the record, but there was no
5 problem on the part of my two colleagues.
6 Then I said: "Yes, it's even better because basically we will be
7 asking him some questions, and the reason why we want to ask him questions
8 is having gone through his evidence here, there are some points that we
9 need clarification upon."
10 And then Ms. Korner said: "Your Honour, having asked the
11 questions, then effectively allow Mr. Ackerman if anything arises to
12 re-cross-examine and myself to re-examine." And I said: "Yes, it's
13 normal practice. If there's anything arising from the questions we put
14 and what his answers are, if there is anything that is new, fresh or
15 requires some kind of intervention from Mr. Ackerman or from yourself
16 Ms. Korner, we will allow for that. Yes, so that's the position. Is
17 there anything else?"
18 And that was almost the end of the discussion, except that there
19 is another excerpt in which Ms. Korner says: "BT94 will be here,
20 arriving on Monday, so allowing him Tuesday to refresh his memory for his
21 testimony, he will be available for Your Honours Wednesday morning and
22 whenever we are sitting."
23 What happened afterwards may not have been exactly as we had
24 intended it to be when we communicated to the Prosecution and to Defence,
25 that it was our wish that he be advised of the subject matter or more or
1 less the main topic that he would be asked upon. But we have heard the
2 witness here answer the questions that we put to him, and we are satisfied
3 that there is no contamination and no irregularity of substance that could
4 convince us to accede to your request that you put earlier, Mr. Ackerman.
5 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want to thank you very much for
7 bringing that exchange from the record to our attention and making it part
8 of the record of this particular hearing. And I will just say that it's
9 very clear that from that hearing, the Prosecution was given permission to
10 let him look at his prior testimony, not given permission to start showing
11 him new material, which is exactly what they did, never done with
12 permission of this Chamber. That's the part I'm objecting to. I don't
13 care if he reads his prior testimony, and I don't care if he reads his
14 diary, but for the Prosecution to start showing him new material without
15 any permission from the Court, without any response from me, I think is
16 improper. If the Prosecution had said at that time that, "We would like
17 to additionally show him some new material, Your Honours," then I probably
18 would have objected to that.
19 MS. KORNER: I'm not going to allow this to go on the record like
20 this. Your Honours know, and Mr. Ackerman knows, and he's deliberately
21 ignoring it. That had that been -- had there been no further
22 communication, that is the way it would have been. He would have reviewed
23 his testimony in his diary.
24 Mr. Ackerman knows that Your Honours sent both of us an email, or
25 via your legal officer an email saying it should be communicated to him.
1 And I have explained exactly what was done as a result. And as I say, for
2 the third time, I could have sat on this information, and I find it
3 infamous that the accusations are now being levelled, again, that I am
4 deliberately interfering with testimony given by witnesses when in fact I
5 informed, as is my want throughout this whole case, the Chamber and
6 Mr. Ackerman of exactly what had passed. And I think the time has come to
7 stop this now.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Ms. Korner. May I also make it
9 public that we three are also convinced that there absolutely no ulterior
10 motives on your part beyond what we had indicated we needed to.
11 The way we understand it is the following: That the moment we
12 sent out the message to you loud and clear, both of you, that the majority
13 of the questions will be directed on propaganda, it was only natural and
14 logical to assume that the questions that we would be asking the witness
15 on propaganda would also be based on information that -- on evidence that
16 has been tendered and received by this Tribunal since his testimony here.
17 And the thing is that we do not see any contamination here or any
18 irregularity of substance that should stop us from proceeding with the
19 questioning of this witness. So let's proceed. BT94, please.
20 Again, we remain in open session even while he walks in. Yeah,
21 yeah, but it changes from courtroom to courtroom. So in Courtroom III or
22 Courtroom I, we would do it differently.
23 So let's continue. It's important that he has available before
24 him -- in front, on his desk, the copy of his diary, Madam Chuqing. Is it
25 already available? And there's a transcript of his testimony. That would
1 be extremely helpful.
2 MS. KORNER: He can't read it. It's in English.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon?
4 MS. KORNER: Unless Your Honours have it in B/C/S, he won't be
5 able to read. It's in English.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: He doesn't understand English at all?
7 MS. KORNER: No. That's why we had him watching the videos.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I will be referring to lines specific to you, and so
9 both Mr. Ackerman and yourself, Ms. Korner, should be able to follow me.
10 But that escaped me. I do not have the corresponding reference in -- you
11 do have it?
12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's try it. If it doesn't work, we will have to
14 find a solution. I was acting under the presumption that the witness knew
15 some English.
16 MS. KORNER: I can hear Madam Registrar saying that if it goes
17 onto the ELMO, the specific page that Your Honours are referring to, so
18 the translators can see it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start with the first question. I'm going
22 to refer you to your testimony of the 23rd of June of last year. And at
23 page 17.997, 17.997 --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the interpreters have not been
25 provided with the documents, and we are unable to give you the exact
1 quotes. We can only interpret what we hear.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's precisely how it's going to be. So we
3 can put it on the ELMO.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we can put it up through Sanction on to
5 the --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's even better. That's even better.
7 And at line 17.997, you are reported to have testified as
8 follows: "Well, a bad influence, not just on the citizens, on the urban
9 part, but particularly on the rural part. It had a catastrophic
10 influence. They were convinced they were under threat, and every word
11 that was uttered through the media represented a law to them."
12 A. Yes, this is what I stated.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, in addition to that, at page 18.160 of the
14 transcript, with particular reference, and perhaps you can check this to
15 your entry in your diary referring to the 10th of June of 1992, you also
16 said -- you also said: "Not a single positive word about Muslims can be
17 read or heard in the local media. When they are all Islamic
18 fundamentalists, extremists, or fanatics."
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We came to the conclusion reading this that they
21 were sweeping statements of a generic nature. Can you be more specific?
22 Let's take them one by one. On what basis do you tell us or do you
23 believe that this propaganda was deleterious had a really bad influence,
24 not just on citizens on the urban part but particularly in the rural part,
25 it had a catastrophic influence. On what authority do you state this, do
1 you make this statement?
2 A. You see, Your Honour, in the former Yugoslavia, we all lived
3 following the principle of brotherhood and unity, and we truly believed
4 that we were all brothers. And I still maintain that we are. We all
5 belong to the same people, except that one part of that population was --
6 became orthodox, and the other Catholic. It was not an empty space. We
7 all belonged to the same people, but we belonged to three different
8 religions. Now, when someone tells me I'm from Bosnia, I'm from Bosnia
9 the same way as the Pope is. I am a Catholic, but I'm also a Bosnian.
10 Now, why is it that I made that conclusion? You see, after the life that
11 we had enjoyed for years, it was necessary to use what was missed by the
12 communists. We had to solve the burdens of the past. We still lived with
13 those burdens. We didn't know anything at that time. And the new
14 Messiahs, whom we had unfortunately elected without having properly
15 analysed them beforehand, we were not aware of who they really were, all
16 of a sudden started to talk to us about being in danger, being in
17 jeopardy. And it was necessary to demonise the opposite side for -- in
18 order to convince me that my neighbours with whom I had lived for years
19 are now my enemies.
20 So this is -- this is my opinion. And there are countless
21 examples for that. What you mentioned, the 10th of June, I read in the
22 papers -- with your permission, I should like to read to you just one
23 thing which is very difficult to understand. I mean, for the people who
24 come from normal countries, such as you. But please, try to understand
25 this. "A prayer to Thoreau".
1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, this is --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Slowly, because I think the interpreters have having
3 difficulties to catch up with you. So you can start this again, please.
4 A. I'm not receiving interpretation. I didn't receive
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I was trying for explain to you that the
7 interpreters are finding it difficult to catch up with you. And if you
8 could kindly start all over again with this "prayer to."
9 A. "While I'm still of sound mind, I pray to you, St. Vitus.
10 St. Vitus, who can see from the heavens everything that people on the
11 earth are not aware of, I pray to you to save my brethren whose pain can
12 be seen in their -- at their homes."
13 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, can I just --
14 A. "I am hurting all over because of the pain that was caused to us
15 by the enemy."
16 MS. KORNER: If the witness pauses, he's actually reading, Your
17 Honour, it may help the interpreters and Your Honours, he's reading from
18 the end of the entry which is for the 10th of June.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: 10th of June.
20 MS. KORNER: This is something that's recorded in his diary. If
21 the interpreters have the diary, it's the very last part of the entry for
22 the 10th of June.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead.
24 A. Here, we're talking about martyrs that have been slaughtered, and
25 it's very painful for me to read this. And when the population generally
1 speaking is faced with such texts on a daily basis, then obviously they
2 will feel in danger. I'm not exaggerating anything. There was constant
3 talk about people slaughtered, killed, murdered. It's -- once again, it's
4 very painful and sickening for me to go on. And maybe on the very next
5 day, here in the next entry, you have the following: "The Serb TV and the
6 Radio Banja Luka have to be much stronger in the propaganda. The radio
7 must repeatedly broadcast the news from the borders of Yugoslavia so that
8 all listeners could hear them, despite frequent power shortages."
9 So you have this constant repetition, and you know, Your Honours,
10 that once a lie is broadcasted and once these broadcasts become frequent,
11 then it's very difficult to see the truth for those who are exposed to
12 such broadcasts. And this is why I stated that the media had killed,
13 symbolically speaking, a number of people before so many people were
14 actually killed.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But you still haven't explained to us why you draw
16 the distinction between, say, citizens living in the urban sections of the
17 country and those living --
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- in the rural part. Why do you make such
21 A. The difference is a drastic one. I don't think that such huge
22 differences can be found anywhere else. It is mostly mixed population
23 that lives in towns. It is perfectly normal for me to come across a
24 Muslim friend or a Serb friend out in the street. There were many mixed
25 marriages. There are still many children from mixed marriages. The
1 population was completely mixed in urban areas. Needless to say, the
2 level of education was much higher in towns than in villages where most of
3 the population worked on the land.
4 There was another characteristic of Bosnia which was quite
5 important, especially in cases of villages where only one nationality
6 lived. It was very difficult to delude the people. This was often done
7 by local priests who frequently played rather dishonourable roles in our
8 society, which was not the case in cities and in towns. In villages, the
9 local population regularly attended church services. The churches were
10 always packed, whereas in towns the churches were places where you could
11 go in on a hot day and rest in the shade.
12 So once again, the urban population was always better educated
13 than the rural one. And that is the reason why it was so easy to delude
14 the rural population with the stories of martyrs and saviors.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But arising out of this, how easy was it for the
16 people living in rural parts to have access to the media? Because we have
17 had witnesses here telling us how difficult it was, either because of
18 electricity or because of money, that...
19 A. You see, the press, generally speaking, the print media, people no
20 longer regularly bought newspapers because they were very poor. As for
21 the electronic media, of course, we had television and we had radio as
22 well. And there were constant broadcasts over the radio and the TV of
23 that nature. And it was easy to overcome the problem of power shortages
24 as well because there were generators. We constantly used generators to
25 listen to the radio or to watch TV. And both radio and TV constantly
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 repeated one and the same story.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One final question on this area: How
3 frequent, according to your -- according to you, were these statements in
4 the local media labelling Muslims as Islamic fundamentalists, extremists,
5 or fanatics, and can you recall specific instances?
6 A. Yes, I think I can, Your Honour. This was a common occurrence, an
7 everyday phenomena. Of course, one would from time to time be surprised
8 at reading something normal. There were also, so to speak, good Muslims
9 and good Croats. However, in most of the cases, such as here, for
10 instance, and I'm looking at a declaration which says: "Serbs and all
11 honourable Krajina people, let us stand up and defend our freedom, our
12 religion, and our homes. We are fighting against Ustasha and Islamic
13 fascists. We are fighting lies and international conspiracy. We're
14 fighting for the truth, and we cannot lose."
15 This is what you were able to hear after every news broadcast.
16 And then again, the following: "Let us understand, we are not under the
17 blockade by the 6th American Fleet, but by Zulja and Mulja from Gracac
18 town, and from Urja and Bjura [phoen] from Placa. May they all die or get
19 killed by a bullet. That is the kind of justice that they deserve."
20 Now, this is the kind of speech that you could hear in the media.
21 This is the level and the type of news that you could hear in the media.
22 MS. KORNER: If you could just ask him to identify the date.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, I was going to ask him precisely that.
24 Where are you reading from? Where can we find this?
25 A. This is the entry of the 20th of June 1992. Page number 021058.
1 And if this is what was in place in 1992, then you can just
2 imagine how things were in 1993. The international conspiracy was entered
3 in under the date of 18th June 1992.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to the second question. And this should
5 be a very simple, straightforward one. Please, Ms. Korner and
6 Mr. Ackerman, refer to page 17.998 of the transcript. And that's relative
7 to the testimony of the witness tendered on the 23rd of June of 2003.
8 Sir, while you were testifying on the 23rd of June 2003, you gave
9 as an example a live, phone-in radio programme dealing with NATO air
10 strikes, air strike threats, where the programme's host, a certain Milenko
11 Stojicic --
12 A. Yes, I remember.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- did absolutely nothing, did not lift a finger to
14 placate a listener who had phoned in threatening the Muslims from Sanski
15 Most. And you added during your testimony that this programme and this
16 intervention by this listener and nonintervention by Milenko Stojicic was
17 followed by a an attack on a mosque in Potok and a stabbing in Rudarska
18 Street of a man --
19 A. Yes, the mosque in Potocka. The Potocka Dzamija, that's what it's
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And the stabbing in Rudarska Street of a man over
22 whose corpse a Koran was placed. Now, what I need you to clear for us, to
23 clarify for us is the following: We need to place this within a time
24 frame. Do you know when this happened? I'm telling you, sir, why,
25 because we are only concerned with events that took place within a certain
1 time frame. So I want to make sure whether this falls within that time
2 frame, or whether it's an event which took place afterwards or before.
3 If I can be of any help, because this is what prompted us to have
4 this question put to you, in one of the statements that you made, that you
5 gave to the Prosecution, and I'm referring to Exhibit Number P2342.2 --
6 sorry, P2324.2 --
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not sure what you're referring to.
8 Was his witness statement made an exhibit?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it was made an exhibit.
10 MS. KORNER: Why?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know but it was made an exhibit.
12 MS. KORNER: That's right, Your Honour. That was the time Your
13 Honour was giving me an hour and a half to -- that's why. I remember.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. If you give me the statement, I will read out
15 from here to him.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's tendered under seal.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If it's tendered under seal, we have to go
18 into closed session -- we still have to go into closed session for a
20 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour, the only reason it's tendered
21 under seal, it's not for the contents, so long as it doesn't identify him,
22 his name, there's no reason why it shouldn't be read out.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We can show it to him and then he can explain to us
24 or confirm whether this is the same incident or is it a different one.
25 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's it.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: When did this happen?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Well, it reads here: Wednesday, 1st of September 1993. That's
4 when the programme was broadcast. And I was talking about it on Thursday,
5 2nd of September 1993 when we were all aware of the consequences. The
6 mosque was shot at. Nermin Djumisic was killed --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough. Thank you. I just wanted to
9 Mr. Ackerman, do you want to see this statement? Mr. Ackerman?
10 Do you want to see this statement? I just wanted to confirm actually the
11 impression we had that this was an incident that occurred in 1993 and not
12 in 1992. All right.
13 And incidentally, just for the record, it transpires that the
14 translation into English of his statement, Ms. Korner, 1st September,
15 1993, was erroneously indicated as 1st September 1998, but we are
16 satisfied that it is 1993 now.
17 A. 1993. Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this the only instance that you recall of an
19 event like this happening --
20 A. No, no, it isn't.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- happening -- let me finish, please. Happening
22 after a TV or radio programme, or are you aware of other incidents that
23 took place which you attribute as a direct result of the transmission?
24 A. In my humble opinion, everything that happened was a result of TV
25 or radio programmes. At this very moment, I cannot recall any such event,
1 but there were many such events. Initially, we had the normal TV
2 programmes, but then the Serb rebels captured the relay in Kozara to
3 ostensibly give us the true information as opposed to Sarajevo where lies
4 came from. And it was then that their truth started coming out, which was
5 to have its climax in the TV Banja Luka programme which, prior to every
6 news -- Krajina news programme, would broadcast the "moments of truth," as
7 they called them.
8 There, you were able to see repeatedly slaughtered corpses, dead
9 bodies. The commentary was that Serbs were biologically endangered. What
10 does it mean? They never said who they were endangered by but they always
11 pointed to those on the other side being Ustashas and Mujahedins.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stick to the question and not deviate from it.
13 We are agreed that you are referring here to an incident or a sequence of
14 incidents that took place in September 1993. We are not actually
15 interested as such in the event except insofar as you hint in your
16 testimony a link between what was threatened during the programme by this
17 listener and what happened subsequently.
18 Do you believe in this link, to start with? Are you so sure in
19 your mind that the stabbing of this gentleman in Rudarska Street and the
20 attack on the mosque in Potok occurred because someone had threatened the
21 people of the -- the non-Serbs of Sanski Most? Or could they have
22 happened independently of that threat? What's your position on that?
23 Let's start from here.
24 A. I'm certain that there is a direct link between the two, and there
25 is no doubt about it. Muslims --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop there as far as regards this incident.
2 Prior to September 1993, and relatively to the period April 1992
3 to December 1992, are you aware of any incidents occurring as, in your
4 mind, a direct link or a direct result of what was stated in the media?
5 Please be specific. I don't want you to be generic, because being generic
6 doesn't help us in the least.
7 A. Well, this is quite difficult for me because whatever has been
8 written down here, many of these things it's very difficult to remember; I
9 forget them. What I know is that we lived a normal life, and as soon as
10 these stories came out, people started losing their lives. Now, as for
11 specific examples, I am really unable at this stage to recall any. Had I
12 known that this would be asked of me, I would have taken some time in the
13 hotel yesterday evening to take a look at the entries and maybe refresh my
14 memory, but I couldn't know what you were going to ask me.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously. I mean, we couldn't tell you the
16 questions. But perhaps you will have time later on today, this evening,
17 and tomorrow morning to try and refresh your memory. If you can recall
18 any of such instances, please do come back to us tomorrow. If you don't,
19 also come back to us tomorrow and tell us that you don't recall any
20 specific incidents like this.
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Please refer to transcript page number T18.166.
23 Now, I'm going to read out to you part of your testimony here given on the
24 24th of June.
25 JUDGE JANU: We don't have it on the screen, the number. No, it
1 is okay. Sorry.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: It is okay.
3 And then I'm going to ask you a series of questions because this
4 short paragraph of about five lines contains several statements. You
5 state as follows. You were describing the role of the media at that time
6 which is relevant for our case in Banja Luka and in Bosnia-Herzegovina as
7 follows. You said: "The media were not calling for genocide, but were
8 creating an atmosphere which led to the misfortune that occurred. It's
9 the media's fault most of all."
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: "Who would have heard Mr. Brdjanin speak had it not
12 been for Radio Banja Luka, TV Banja Luka, TV Pale if the local newspapers
13 hadn't been there? It was the media that paved the way. They paved the
14 way for what eventually happened to our deepest regret."
15 Now, I realise that you have touched on some of these aspects when
16 answering the previous questions that I put to you, but I would like you
17 to be more specific. Let's start with the first part of your statement.
18 "The media were not calling for genocide, but were creating an atmosphere
19 which led to the misfortune that occurred." What is the difference? Or
20 what would be the difference in your mind when you say that there was no
21 specific calling for genocide, but there was this creation of an
22 atmosphere which led to the misfortune that occurred? What do you mean by
24 We know more or less the misfortune that occurred. I mean, this
25 is a matter that everyone knows, the sad events that took place throughout
1 the whole decade, throughout the whole war. But what do you want to tell
2 us here? Do you want to tell us that -- let's say what you want to tell
3 us, and then I -- if necessary, I will put another question to you.
4 A. When I said that they did not directly call for it, well, you
5 could not hear anyone say, "Let's go and kill everyone in the village.
6 Let's raze Srebrenica to the ground. Let's destroy them." Well, there
7 was no such thing. Similarly, in this earlier example related to the
8 unfortunate Sanski Most, it wasn't the presenter who would call upon the
9 people to do what eventually happened, but by addressing the people in a
10 savage way, addressing their lower savage senses, instincts, this created
11 a psychosis, a climate that favoured the atrocious events that happened.
12 They did not try to ease the tensions, to calm things down, to tell people
13 to stop for a second and think about it.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a case here where the accused is being
15 charged with genocide. You're telling us that the media were not calling
16 for genocide but were creating an atmosphere which led to the misfortune
17 that occurred. What misfortune are you referring to?
18 A. I was referring to the whole of my Bosnia. The whole of Bosnia
19 was a misfortune. That is how I look at it. I repeat: You wouldn't hear
20 anyone on the radio calling upon people to go and commit crimes but they
21 allowed people who did call for violence to speak up at the radio or TV,
22 if I've put myself clearly. So the media have enabled these hawks to
23 promote themselves, to take -- to take centre stage, and that's what was
24 so catastrophic about it.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you mean to tell us, because this needs to be
1 clear, that in your mind the media were not calling for genocide but were
2 creating an atmosphere which led to genocide?
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but Your Honour,
4 I'm concerned that there may be a muddling of concepts. One is the legal
5 concept of genocide, which may not be the concept of genocide that he's
6 talking about, so in order to clarify, if I may suggest, to ask him what
7 he means by genocide.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: What I want to know from the witness is precisely
9 whether he's telling us -- the media never said, "Let's kill them all,"
10 but created an atmosphere which practically meant, so was sending a
11 message, "Let's kill them all." Not as loud and clear as it would have
12 been had it been loud and clear, and this is what I want to hear from you,
13 whether you equivolate the misfortune that occurred, whether you
14 equivolate -- we need to know this, whether you were equivolating what you
15 mention as the misfortune that occurred with what in your mind amounts to
16 genocide? Are you telling us the media never said, "We are calling for
17 genocide," but equally created an atmosphere which couldn't but lead to
18 genocide? Is this what you are telling us?
19 A. Yes, yes, precisely. That is precisely what I wanted to say.
20 Under the guise of neutrality, they would give a chance to people to speak
21 up for whom they knew what they would say, that they would appeal to the
22 basic -- to the base instincts of the multitude of people. So they would
23 pave the way, and if you could say this was done in gloves, so to speak,
24 in an indirect way for the people to commit genocide. And these are the
25 people that I hold responsible. I think that they are directly
1 responsible for what happened. But this is the distinction that I make.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You continue by saying that practically nothing of
3 the sort would have happened had it not been for the media. Is this what
4 you mean to say?
5 A. Yes, that is so.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Janu would like put a question to you.
7 JUDGE JANU: Witness, following the media day after day, could you
8 spot that there was a plan or there was a management after all this
10 A. This could easily be seen far before the outbreak of the conflict.
11 One could follow the developments and the direction where they were
12 headed. Even before anyone was aware of the magnitude of the catastrophe
13 that would ensue, you could see that the press changed its tone. They
14 talked about Serbs being endangered, how all the other peoples were to
15 blame for the fact that the Serbs were left behind, they were the ones who
16 had fewer votes in the assembly, and that is how they started creating the
17 atmosphere of them being endangered by others.
18 And this atmosphere spread from Croatia to Bosnia. And Croats
19 from -- Croats in Bosnia failed to realise that they were basically
20 misused by the leaders. And that was also true for the Serbs, because
21 they were placing all their hopes in Belgrade. Everyone was involved in
22 this game, and then suddenly the leaders emerged in the foreground.
23 JUDGE JANU: So do I understand you well that it was coming from
24 one centre and spreading through the country?
25 A. Yes, it started from Belgrade. I think this is a fact of common
1 knowledge. It started out in Belgrade and spread from there further. The
2 Serbian Academy of Arts, the SANU, they planted the story about the Serbs
3 being endangered for the sake of the world, and that is something that the
4 common people did not understand. They needed pawns, and they allowed
5 these pawns to be raised to high-level positions to implement this.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's stop here for the time being. My apologies to
7 everybody, I was under the impression that we would have the break at
8 quarter past 4.00, I didn't realise it should have been at quarter to
9 4.00. So my apologies, we will have a 25-minute break now. Thank you.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just inquire, and it's partly for
13 the purpose of the witness, because I'm afraid that we were all under a
14 complete misunderstanding, which is that he would be here for about an
15 hour today. Your Honours will be going into tomorrow on questions with
16 the witness.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
18 MS. KORNER: No, no, it's all right, Your Honour. We have to
19 obviously -- arrangements have to be made --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Initially I had thought
21 we would finish today. But probably we will need a small part of
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's fine. It's just that I know
24 that -- I think arrangements were made on a misunderstanding that he was
25 going back tomorrow and that he wouldn't be required again. So I hope
1 that the investigators are watching.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just ask, I'm sorry, again, it's
4 my fault, I was under a completely false impression. Would Your Honours
5 say, then, that you won't be sitting beyond 6.30 today.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I never said that, but if you want to --
7 MS. KORNER: No, I'm just asking if Your Honours would do that.
8 It simply never occurred to me, and I made arrangements which I can't --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem, Ms. Korner. It's okay. We will sit up
10 to 6.30.
11 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay with you, Mr. Ackerman? Okay.
13 Let me take you back again to the topic that we were -- you're not
14 finished. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, Judge Janu has some further
16 JUDGE JANU: Sir, you were telling us about the involvement of
17 academics from the academy of science in this propaganda business. Do you
18 remember some names? Some leading personalities who were engaged in this
20 A. Of course I do. The entire Academy of Arts and Sciences, the
21 Belgrade-based Academy of Arts and Sciences, first they publicised the
22 memorandum, the infamous memorandum, and then a number of their members,
23 Cosic, Betkovic, and others, they were all working on the same agenda.
24 They wanted to appeal to the people living in Bosnia to convince them of
25 the fact that Serbia was in danger, that everyone was against Serbia, and
1 so on and so forth.
2 The writers' club located at Francuska Street number 7 were all
3 working towards the same goal. All of a sudden, a number of books were
4 published that were speaking to the same idea. And the people followed
5 like blind. They turned their back to their neighbours because they
6 believed those intellectuals. And this is how it all started.
7 JUDGE JANU: So those people, those intellectuals, had quite a big
8 space in the media to present their views and opinions? Are you telling
9 us this? And, sir, I believe that as in any nation, there were Serbian
10 intellectuals who had quite opposite view. Did you, following the media,
11 did you witness that those people for balancing the opinion had the space
12 in the media to express what they thought about the problem?
13 A. I followed the media. However, those honourable people, such the
14 former mayor of Belgrade, Mr. Bogdan Bogdanovic, they did not have any
15 space in the media. They were all rejected. They were no longer there.
16 They were absent. All of a sudden, they disappeared. And you had a new
17 range of smart people, so to speak, who were ostensibly telling the truth.
18 They were given the space in the media. They were on TV, and the
19 population, generally speaking, looked up to them.
20 JUDGE JANU: Did you come across the name Vladimir Srebrov, or
22 A. Of course I did. According to my knowledge, he was the founder of
23 the Serbian Democratic Party. And later, when he realised what it had
24 turned into, he abandoned the party. And at one point, he was even
25 arrested by the Serbs. He suffered a lot. I'm aware of that. He went
1 through a terrible ordeal, and in the end he turned out to be quite an
2 honourable man, despite the fact that he was the founder of the Serbian
3 Democratic Party, Vladimir Srebrov.
4 JUDGE JANU: Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: While we are -- rather, I'm taking you back to the
6 media. You said it was the media's fault most of all. During the period
7 in question, 1992, in particular, April to December, in particular, which
8 newspapers are you aware of that existed, that were published?
9 A. I believe I was aware of all of them, except that --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we have a list of them.
11 A. For instance, in Banja Luka, if you're referring to Banja Luka
12 specifically, you were able to buy Glas, Srpski, the paper called Javnost,
13 published by the SDS. You were also able to buy all Belgrade-based
14 papers. However, nothing from Zagreb or Sarajevo. And this is how the
15 truth was presented. We had no alternatives. We did not have other
16 papers to compare and to be able to draw our own conclusions. We had
17 access to Belgrade-based papers, plus the Glas from Banja Luka, which was
18 later called Glas Srpski, and some others. Those were the print media
19 that we had access to.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why was that so? Was it because there were no
21 papers from Sarajevo and from Zagreb, or for some other reasons that they
22 were not available?
23 A. If anyone caught you reading the Oslobodjenje from Sarajevo, you
24 would be beaten up. Those were simply prohibited papers. It was not
25 possible to read those papers during that period of time. To read papers
1 coming from some other part of the country, the opinion -- the public
2 opinion generally speaking was uniform. There was only one truth, which
3 was presented to us in this manner. We now know to what extent this was
4 actually true, the information that they were presenting. But in those
5 days, those were the papers that were reaching Banja Luka. Nothing else.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Were there any clandestine publications that you are
7 aware of?
8 A. You mean if anything was printed illegally?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by the Muslims or by the Croats, or by the
10 non-Serbs anyway?
11 A. I don't know. It seems to me now that I had an opportunity of
12 seeing a paper which was printed and published by the Roma community. And
13 you know, the Roma generally speaking are apolitical. They don't care
14 much about politics anyway. Croats and Muslims are much too fearful to
15 expose themselves to any risk involved in such an enterprise.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: The leaders amongst the Muslims and the leaders
17 amongst the Croats, if they wanted to reach out to people and communicate
18 with them, what possibilities were there and how did they go about it?
19 Because I take it that you're telling us that they had no newspapers,
20 neither openly nor underground, nor clandestinely. So if they wanted to
21 reach their people, how did they do it?
22 A. To be frank, I don't know. I kept a diary, that is true. But I
23 was never able to realise in what way they communicated to their people,
24 if they actually did. As a Croat, in those days, I wasn't even aware of
25 who the Croatian leader was. There was a man by the name of Jovic, but I
1 never saw him. I don't know what he looks like. And I think that as far
2 as Muslims are concerned, they held several press conferences at the time.
3 They tried to protest, but to no avail, with the exception, perhaps, of
4 Muharem Krzic, the president of the SDA, who miraculously appeared on the
5 TV on a couple of occasions, the Banja Luka TV. However, it later turned
6 out that he was their player which they used in order to be able to say
7 that it was actually a democratic society, a democratic community, despite
8 the fact that lots of rumours were going around against Serbs.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, in the region, in the area that you
10 are familiar with, apart from TV Banja Luka and TV Pale, were there any
11 other stations that could -- that were received?
12 A. The Belgrade TV, which was our Bible, was supposed to be like our
13 Bible. They were the ones who knew the real truth and the only truth, and
14 they had to be obeyed. The local players were only puppets who acted
15 pursuant to their instructions. And I'm referring to the local people in
16 Banja Luka and elsewhere in the area.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. So you say TV Banja Luka, TV Pale,
18 TV Belgrade?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: -- TV Belgrade. And are you in a position to tell
21 us which of these three stations was mostly followed or followed most?
22 A. I think the Banja Luka TV because of the local patriotism. We all
23 wanted to watch our TV. Then the Pale TV was also widely watched because
24 of Risto Dzogo, a journalist, who would eventually be killed by the Serbs
25 themselves, who made a number of tasteless appearances on TV and displayed
1 shameful primitivism to the extent that it's hard to understand. I mean,
2 if you were to watch one such shows featuring Risto Dzogo, may God rest
3 his soul, everything would be really made clear to you. You would really
4 remain speechless after seeing a programme of that kind.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Radio Banja Luka is also one medium that you
6 mentioned. Were there any other radio stations that you are aware of that
7 you can mention to us?
8 A. There was a very important radio station called BIG radio station.
9 This particular radio station broadcast the music that appealled to the
10 people, the kind of music that everyone liked, pop music, blues, and jazz,
11 whereas the Banja Luka radio was not as appealing to the local population
12 as this particular radio station. But once the war started, this radio
13 station called BIG radio would also turn the coat and join in the
14 propaganda and play a part in everything that was taking place at the
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let me take you back to what you said on the
17 24th of June now. And you said: "Who would have heard Mr. Brdjanin
18 speaking, had it not been for," and let's take them one by one. Radio
19 Banja Luka. Can you confirm to us that you heard Mr. Brdjanin speaking on
20 Radio Banja Luka?
21 A. Yes, by all means I can confirm that. He spoke on the radio
23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous interpretation continues]....
24 A. I think you can see this from my diary. I made notes of that, at
25 least once a week. I do not want to make a mistake. But on the top of my
1 head, I think it was once a week. The most frequent guests were Brdjanin,
2 Lukic, and others.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And BIG radio station, did you ever hear
4 Mr. Brdjanin speak on BIG radio station?
5 A. To tell you the truth, I don't remember. I don't believe that he
6 didn't, but I cannot say that he did. But at any rate, if he did speak on
7 that radio station, it would be noted in my diary.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, TV Banja Luka, his appearance on TV
9 Banja Luka, can you confirm that, or reconfirm that? How often did it
10 occur? Do we rely on what you have in your diary, or can you expand on
12 A. I mostly rely on my diary, but he did appear very often. For
13 instance, the programme called "Open Screen" with Nikola Deretic, he
14 appeared on that programme, and he was asked what to do with the so-called
15 national equation, and then he said: "Well, we will take a Croat, and
16 then a Serb."
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't quite get. We will take a Croat, and then
18 a Serb, and do what?
19 A. No. It was only for purely formalistic reasons. He didn't want
20 to take a Muslim or a Croat but a less valuable Serb, such as persons who
21 were baptised only later.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I see, yes. TV Pale. Do you recall Brdjanin
23 appearing on TV Pale?
24 A. Without looking at my notes, it's difficult for me to recall. I
25 believe he did appear. There were many phone-in programmes. He was
1 perhaps at the studio in Banja Luka, but would also appear on the
2 Pale-based TV. It probably involved cooperation between two studios or
3 two TV stations. I'm not sure, but I know that he did appear on that TV
4 as well.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we proceed any further, now his interventions
6 on Radio Banja Luka, can you place these in a time frame? Are we talking
7 of 1992, of 1993, both? 1991? 1994? When are we -- when did you hear
8 Mr. Brdjanin take part in Radio Banja Luka programmes?
9 A. Again, relying on my diary, because it covers the year of 1992 all
10 the way to the 19th of November 1993, so I can only talk about that
11 period, I -- after that I no longer listened to it, so I cannot talk about
13 JUDGE AGIUS: What I want from you is a confirmation or a denial
14 that when you say that you heard him speak on Radio Banja Luka, you are
15 referring to 1992?
16 A. In 1992 and 1993. Those two years.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And TV Banja Luka?
18 A. TV Banja Luka, also during that period. Nothing later.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: TV Pale?
20 A. That, too. All my knowledge, everything that I can talk about
21 here, concerns 1992 and 1993.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You do confirm that you recall his appearance on TV
23 Banja Luka and TV Pale, in particular the last one, in 1992? In 1992?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And TV Belgrade? Did you ever see Mr. Brdjanin on
1 TV Belgrade? And if so, when?
2 A. I cannot remember that at this point. I think that I saw him on
3 TV Novi Sad when the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was
4 declared, and I believe that there was discussion about that on TV Novi
5 Sad, that the event was described as a seminal event.
6 As for Belgrade TV, I don't know, but I'm sure he did appear on
7 Belgrade TV as well because they were often taken there. They were some
8 sort of attraction because they were supposed to implement the unification
9 of a whole country with Serbia. The Belgrade TV, I think this would have
10 been either in 1993 or maybe 1994. There was a programme called "Thank
11 you for the Krajina, Banja Luka," they were expressing their gratitude for
12 having attained Krajina. Radio Belgrade and Radio Banja Luka shot this
13 programme jointly, so they were expressing their gratitude for this,
14 whereas we, at the same time, were being forced to leave the region.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Brdjanin in the media now. Again, I would like to
16 refer you, Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman, to page 18.013 of the transcript.
17 And this is the witness testifying on the 23rd of June 2003 with reference
18 to the entry in his diary of the 28th of August 1992.
19 Now, you said something which is very strong indeed here with
20 regard to the accused. You said: "But for -- as for Brdjanin, he thought
21 he was God's gift to the masses." I'm not much concerned with this, but
22 I'm very much concerned on what follows. You then said: "He decided on
23 life and death."
24 Why did you say that? What do you mean by it? Because although
25 you later say he thought that was his right: "I'm not saying here that he
1 really wanted bad things to happen to Croats and Muslims, I don't want to
2 say that. But the way he addressed himself, the way he spoke, and his
3 public announcements in the mass media, the way he spoke, he caused panic
4 among the people. That's what he did. That's a fact."
5 But I put it to you that speaking in a way as to cause panic
6 amongst the people should not drive you to the conclusion that he decided
7 on life and death. That's a very, very strong statement that you made
8 with regard to Brdjanin. So could you please explain to us why you stated
9 that he decided on life and death.
10 A. I'll do my best to clarify, if I'm able to. If a national leader
11 appearing before a heated mass of people says: "We're going to fight for
12 our people, and within the next hundred years we will expel all of --
13 pagans from our area," it's clear what he means. If Your Honours were to
14 listen to a speech of that kind, it would be easy for you to reject it.
15 But if an uneducated person listens to such a leader, a credulous,
16 uneducated person, he is prepared to do everything, and indeed to take
17 arms against those pagans. Oftentimes when I would run into a Muslim
18 friend in the street and ask him how he was, I would get an answer: "I'm
19 doing fine, but I'm afraid of the dark. I'm afraid of the night," because
20 miracles happened, terrible things happened in those days. And this is
21 how I see it. This is what I meant when I said that he was deciding on
22 the life and death of people, because through his extremism, he
23 encouraged, he incited the madmen who would engage eventually in doing
24 horrible things which made us so infamous today in the world and ruined
25 otherwise good reputation which we had enjoyed prior to this terrible war.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, page 49, line 11.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: The witness said: "Within the next 100 years."
5 And the hundred didn't make it.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
7 Because I did notice that as well and I realised why you are standing up.
8 When did he make -- let's skip that, because we have a reference
9 to that. Do you mean, because again, this is very important, what
10 responsibility are you attributing to Mr. Brdjanin for what happened?
11 When you tell us: "He decided on life and death," at the same time,
12 you're telling us: "I am not saying here that he really wanted bad things
13 to happen to Croats and Muslims," it seems on the face of it to amount
14 to -- not exactly a contradiction in terms, but one annihilates the other,
15 to an extent. Where do we stand with you? You're talking of Brdjanin
16 giving us the impression that you know enough to be able to make such
17 statements on him. What responsibility are you attributing to him for
18 what happened?
19 A. In my opinion, he is most responsible for the fact that he was
20 irresponsible, for not having thought twice about things that he was going
21 to say. He never thought of the consequences that his speeches might give
22 rise to, and this is something that I would hold most against him.
23 Undoubtedly, he's a clever, intelligent man who should have known what
24 sort of an impression his passionate speeches would have on these rather
25 primitive people, sometimes even antisocial people. Certainly, most of
1 the events took place as a result of his encouragement addressed to the
2 extremists who were to commit atrocious things.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you be specific here? Such as? I tried to
4 explain to you why I'm putting these questions to you, because if I make a
5 speech and I make a mistake in my speech and I realise, without realising
6 that I am inciting the people, and then as a result of my speech something
7 happens that I did not want, I did not anticipate, I did not desire, and
8 it happens, I will take all necessary steps that next time I will try and
9 do exactly the opposite, rather than incite, and I will be very cautious
10 with the choice of my words.
11 What did exactly happen? This is what I want to know. Because I
12 would imagine that everyone knew what was happening. I mean, if you knew
13 it, if the man -- ordinary man in the street was aware of what was
14 happening, I suppose that even Mr. Brdjanin, one would conclude or assume
15 that Mr. Brdjanin knew what was happening. So what was the result of all
17 A. This is what I was talking about when I said that he decided on
18 matters of life and death, because had a man thought of himself committing
19 a mistake when saying these things, becoming aware of the consequences, he
20 would have changed his tone of speeches. But this is not what he did. He
21 was convinced of practically paying a service to the Serbs by talking this
22 way, which was quite untrue. All of his speeches resonated with hatred,
23 and I'm sure you are aware of this as well. And that is why I said that
24 he was responsible for the evil, he committed evil. He incited people to
25 commit evil things. And that is what I meant when I said that he decided
1 about the fates of people. That is certainly a fact.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And according to you did he incite people to commit
3 those things? Can you give us instances when? Can you give us
5 A. For instance, when he said at one of the meetings that these
6 heathens, that we should get rid of them, we should strike them off the
7 soles of our feet. There was the second instance when we were talking
8 about the leveling to be done amongst the peoples. "We'll take a Serb.
9 We won't take a Muslim. We won't take a Croat. We'd rather take a Serb
10 who is less valuable because he was baptised later on in his life,"
11 although all of these gentlemen were once members of the old party and
12 were baptised later on. Franjo Tudjman went to see the Pope, and he
13 actually had his old father baptised at that time.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Taya would like you to be more specific
15 with regard to the time frame.
16 A. As for the time frame, as I said, this was from the very
17 beginning, but I can talk about 1992 up until November 1993. I cannot
18 talk about the events prior to or after the mentioned period.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do I take it, reading through your diary and
20 re-reading through your testimony and also what you told us this
21 afternoon, that Mr. Brdjanin was making prolific use of the mass media?
22 Is this your assessment?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And if this is your assessment, may I ask you also
25 what your assessment is with regard to the next question, whether he was
1 using the mass media as an instrument for his own advancement or whether
2 your assessment leads you to the conclusion that he was using the mass
3 media in pursuance of a broader agenda, an agenda which went beyond his
4 own personal one? Which one would you say? I don't want you to
5 speculate. If you are not sure, if you don't know, please don't -- just
6 say so. But if you can make an assessment and let us have it, then
7 proceed. Go ahead.
8 A. I am inclined to believe that most of the things that he did do he
9 did them for his own advancement, that this was his priority. As a
10 leader, I believe -- or actually I'm quite convinced on the basis of my
11 knowledge about him and on the basis of what I heard from others about
12 him, I am convinced that there was his personal ambition that he was
13 driven by. Such an opportunity appears once in a lifetime that enables
14 you to become from a common citizen the person number one in a country.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But how do you reconcile some of the statements that
16 you attributed to Mr. Brdjanin on TV Banja Luka and on the radio and also
17 in the papers with his self-advancement or his own agenda?
18 A. How to reconcile them.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll tell you why. He already occupied quite some
20 important positions at the time. Like, we hear president of the ARK
21 Crisis Staff, was deputy vice-president of the region, of the ARK...
22 A. Somewhere I read a Bosnian saying which would answer to your
23 question. It says as follows: "Bosnian, if he made a great career
24 somewhere on the North Pole, this would come to nothing for him unless he
25 came back to Bosnia to boast about it." So in other words, he was pleased
1 whenever he heard someone saying: "This is what Brdjanin said," and this
2 was the drive that took him forward, and I believe that his ambitions did
3 exceed the position of the president of the regional -- of the region of
4 Krajina. I am quite certain about that.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So you're basically telling us that mostly you would
6 say that Brdjanin used the mass media as an instrument for
8 A. This is my opinion [as interpreted].
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Your opinion, your assessment. In other words, you
10 are ruling out that he was using the mass media as a tool in the hands of
12 A. To put it frankly, I don't really believe that. Perhaps sometimes
13 he did implement an order arriving from Pale, because quite often he was
14 in conflict with the Pale people, Karadzic and Krajisnik. Very often,
15 there was friction between them, and even in such situations he would
16 appear and give statements. Perhaps some statements that were to his
17 detriment in such a situation. Perhaps he did sometimes implement some of
18 the instructions given to him, but for the most part I believe he acted
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically my question is this: He was speaking
21 for himself. Was he speaking for the SDS, for example?
22 A. Yes. Yes, he did, although the SDS was also full of factions.
23 Because you see, this was a group of political laymen, so to say, who
24 advocated some sort of an agenda. They all said: "We, Serbs, are going
25 to be number one." Even Karadzic said that God was a Serb. But amongst
1 themselves, there was a rivalry of a sort. This was -- this primitive,
2 rural logic. They liked listening to the people saying how they said
3 something -- put something nicely or said something that appealed to them.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the way you have put it to us, you seem to
5 suggest to us that basically the media was manipulated in favour -- by and
6 in favour of the Serbian cause. Is that correct? Centrally operated and
7 manipulated to further the Serbian cause. Is that correct?
8 A. That is correct, yes. For --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: How does Brdjanin fit into that? If he was,
10 according to you, mostly interested in using the mass media in
11 furtherance -- to further his own self-advancement, how does he fit in
12 with the Serbian agenda?
13 A. Whether he was player of such a league, well, I'm not even sure
14 that he was as interested in that as much. They were all struggling to
15 assume their place on the stage, to become significant and distinguish
16 themselves from the mass. How does he fit into all that? In the very
17 beginning when control was assumed over the mass media, his role was not a
18 significant one. The -- it was Miro Mladjenovic, Andjelko Grahovac and
19 others who took part in assuming control over the mass media.
20 If you allow me, Your Honours, I have here an example testifying
21 to the struggle for the media. If you allow me to read it out briefly.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Where are you reading from?
23 A. I am reading from my diary, entry on Saturday, 18th of April 1992.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we have to...
25 A. Here's what it says here --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: 18th of April?
2 A. 1992.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
4 A. It reads as follows: "During the day, the director of Crna agency
5 has called Radio Sarajevo on several occasions asking from the people
6 responsible for that media to switch off their programme on the mid-waves
7 because they wanted to broadcast their programme on that particular wave.
8 He threatened that unless they did so, he would issue a missile, he would
9 send a missile on their particular building. At 17 hours and 17
10 minutes -- 22 minutes, the presenter stopped the reporting of news and
11 gave the following announcement to the viewers, that the Radio and
12 Television Sarajevo building was being shelled that very moment.
13 Following a brief consultation with the editor, Slobodan Trbojevic -" I
14 believe; it is hard to read in this particular spot in my diary - "...it
15 was decided that the programme would continue and the editor himself
16 stated the following at the end of the programme: `The following news
17 programme will be precisely at 7.30 p.m. Of course, if we'll still be
19 This indicates the scope, the proportions that this action for the
20 assumption of control over the mass media was. They imposed some sort of
21 a blockade that they later on left it.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour,, there are two transcript corrections.
24 And I'm almost -- I think both of them -- well, no, one of them is still
25 there but it will be gone in just a second. 54:6. Page 54, line 6 --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Now it's gone.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: It's gone.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I'll get there.
4 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: He says something -- I haven't got it here any
6 longer. He says something like: "That's my opinion."
7 JUDGE AGIUS: "This is my opinion."
8 MR. ACKERMAN: What I'm told he actually said was: "This is my
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's be specific, precise on this.
11 I had told you, Witness: "So you're basically telling us that
12 mostly you would say that Brdjanin used the mass media as an instrument
13 for self-advancement." And you said: "This is my conviction," or, "This
14 is my opinion." Are you convinced of this?
15 A. I believe so, yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, Mr. Ackerman.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: 55:16, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment now because I have to go further down.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: There's a sentence ending with: "Significant one."
20 Then in that space before it starts talking about people, I'm told that he
21 said: "I do not want to attribute that to him."
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So I have to read out to the witness what he said.
23 And then he tells me whether he said the words: "I do not want to
24 attribute that to him."
25 "You're talking of Brdjanin. Whether he was a player of such a
1 league, well, I am not even sure he was as interested in that as much.
2 They were all struggling to assume their place on the stage to become
3 significant and distinguish themselves from the masses. How does he fit
4 into all that? In the very beginning, when control was assumed over the
5 mass media, his role was not a significant one."
6 What I want to know, before you mention Miro Mladjenovic is, "I do
7 not want to attribute that to him." Did you say these words, to start
9 A. I don't know if I said this, to tell you the truth. But when I
10 said that I did not want to attribute this to him, what I meant was that I
11 don't want to attribute to him a role that he did not have in this media
12 grabbing. I don't know if I was clear.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think it's clear enough, Mr. Ackerman.
14 I think it's clear.
15 One moment.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, you were recounting to us what you entered in
18 your diary on the 18th of April, and you were in the point of explaining
19 that following, "A brief consultation with the editors, Slobodan
20 Trbojevic, I believe. It's hard to read in this particular spot in my
21 diary. It was decided that the programme would continue and the editor
22 himself stated the following, 'The end of the programme, the following
23 news programme will be at precisely 7.30 p.m., of course, if we'll still
24 be alive'."
25 And then you were interrupted -- well, you also added: "This
1 indicates for control over the mass media was, they imposed some sort of a
2 blockade which they..." And then you were interrupted. We would like
3 you to conclude on this and tell us what your conclusion is. What does
4 this event indicate to you?
5 A. I thought that I finished talking about this particular event. I
6 want --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: It did not come through in the transcript also
8 because you were interrupted. So if you can repeat that, please.
9 A. This instance of 17th of April serves to illustrate how vigorously
10 they fought for the media, for the space on the media, because the media
11 allowed you to promote yourself and to say whatever it was you wanted to
12 say. In this sense, I mentioned Bogdan Bogdanovic who was unable to be
13 heard at the time, whereas those who brandished their weapons would be on
14 the TV day and night. This is what I meant.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let me take you to another part of your
16 testimony, and I am -- please refer to the entry in your diary for the 5th
17 of May 1992. Now, there you are referring to what, according to you,
18 Brdjanin was reported as saying; namely, that all those who are
19 contemplating leaving Bosanska Krajina, regardless of whether they are
20 Serbs, Croats, or Muslims, will be simply warned, and other parts of
21 Serbia, and perhaps Montenegro, will be told not to accept them. They
22 should not be leaving these parts now when they are needed most by the
23 people. I am allowing -- and those in the crisis area to save their
25 Then when you were referred to this part of your 5th May entry, in
1 your testimony, page 18.086, you testified as follows: You said: "You
2 needed to be there to sense the atmosphere and understand what these
3 things really meant, what the words meant to the people."
4 We seem a little bit -- we feel a little bit uncertain about what
5 to understand by this. Can you explain further. We don't want an
6 explanation on what Mr. Brdjanin according to you is reported as having
7 said. But how do you tie that up with what you testified? You needed to
8 be there to sense the atmosphere and understand what these things really
9 meant, what the words meant to the people. In other words, if he's
10 telling, "Don't leave." And others will be asked not to accept you because
11 we need you here, where do they fit in or tie up together, especially
12 within a context of an alleged ethnic cleansing?
13 A. When I said you had to be there to sense it, I was referring to
14 one specific thing. If -- throughout that time I was suffering traumas
15 caused by provocations, telephone ringing at midnight, someone telling
16 over the phone: "Ustasha, balija, you should leave here," and if I
17 listened to the same person saying: "Well, why shouldn't we have
18 concentration camps if Stalin and Hitler had them, why couldn't we have
19 them," and so on, and then if I hear from this same person something that
20 is supposed to put my mind at ease, well, it's not going to work this way.
21 I'm not going to feel at ease. So why should I be there to stand guard or
22 whatever at this concentration camp? Why should I stay here and support
23 this state if I am not a second-rate but a tenth-rate citizen. If you
24 know the people out there who have nothing to live on, who are being
25 thrown out of their flats because they dodged the mobilisation call-up,
1 then you cannot find any comfort in the nice words you hear from such
2 people because people don't trust them. All his deeds renege whatever
3 nice utterings or well-meaning words he might say.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but why would Mr. Brdjanin -- let me put it to
5 you in a different manner. The Prosecution is alleging that Mr. Brdjanin
6 was a part of a joint criminal enterprise which had on its agenda the
7 ethnic cleansing of the non-Serbs from the Bosanska Krajina. If he was
8 indeed a part of that agenda, and he is almost threatening Croats and
9 Muslims, apart from Serbs, not to leave, why would he say so? Why would
10 he speak out like this in these terms?
11 A. It must have depended on the biorhythm. It's difficult for me to
12 answer your question. He was probably part of them. Essentially, it was
13 a huge conspiracy in which he was involved, a conspiracy against Bosnia
14 and Herzegovina and against Croatia. Events first took place in Croatia,
15 and then they spilled over into Bosnia. We cannot forecast or
16 second-guess what would have happened had the west not intervened, and
17 it's difficult to tell at this point where we would have been today.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Does the fact that this entry goes back to the 5th
19 of May 1992 have any significance at all considering what he is saying?
20 What happened on the 5th of May?
21 A. To be perfectly frank, I would have to read the entry to know what
22 happened on the 5th of May. He had an interview with Stegic on that day,
23 if this is what you're referring to. All of our days were more or less
24 the same.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: How much involvement was there already at the time
1 on the part of the international community regarding the allegations that
2 were rife on ethnic cleansing?
3 A. The involvement of the international community, I don't quite
4 understand your question, Your Honour. I don't know what exactly you have
5 in mind.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: What I have in mind is this: That more or less
7 while you were testifying on this, you also said: "This was putting in
8 the measuring rod and seeing how the international community would react.
9 Whenever there was a sharp reaction from the international community, they
10 would immediately quiet down a little bit and watch for reactions from the
11 international community. As soon as reactions were reserved, they would
12 step up, step up the whole thing, and that was the truth of it."
13 MS. KORNER: Can we have the page, Your Honour, please.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: 18.088. 18.086, okay, because I have a number
15 missing here. It's handwritten.
16 A. Now I see what you mean.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: What I want from you is whether there is a
18 connection between the two. In other words, when you said that
19 Mr. Brdjanin -- when you entered in your diary what Mr. Brdjanin is
20 reported as having said, at the same time you're telling us in your
21 testimony you can't imagine, you needed to be there to see, to understand
22 what these things really meant. And then within the same context, you
23 mention also the reactions to the international community. Are you
24 combining them together, or is it just by accident that you referred us to
25 the international community and reactions to -- the reactions of the
1 international community, counter-reaction?
2 A. I'm not sure of the context in which this can be placed. But I
3 think we have the same thing in mind. Whenever an extreme statement was
4 made, a statement which would shock any normal human and civilised being,
5 immediately after that a press conference would be organised where
6 attempts were made at playing down the initial statement. So the pulse of
7 the international community was being felt, so to speak. However, the
8 international community, being unaware and uninformed of our history and
9 the character of our people, repeated the same mistakes with Milosevic as
10 they did with Hitler 50 years before that. So concessions were made in
11 the hope that they would be able to put an end to all these events.
12 However, eventually when it was clear that the international
13 community was not prepared to intervene and that they would leave Bosnia
14 at its own fate, then they started engaging in what they eventually did.
15 So international forces only later were able to get into the country. I'm
16 referring to the peacekeeping force which in the end interposed themselves
17 between the warring factions. But this is the heritage that is going to
18 be very difficult to dispel.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You've still not cleared this up for us. You
20 yourself told us and others told us here that there were instances when
21 Mr. Brdjanin made speeches to the effect that not more than so many, such
22 a percentage of Muslims will remain in the region, in the area. Anyone
23 who would have heard Mr. Brdjanin say that, if he said that, and then hear
24 Mr. Brdjanin say what you report here on the 5th of May would ask the
25 question: "Has he changed his policy, is he crazy? First he tells us
1 there should be little or no Muslims left here, and now he is telling them
2 'don't -- you leave because we will' -- so if he is saying something
3 which is diametrically opposed to what he had stated before, according to
4 you and others, why would he be saying this? Is it because -- are you
5 hinting, in other words, that he said this because there was pressure from
6 the international community at the time? This is what we want to know.
7 Or is it just because consistency is not exactly one of the best virtues
8 of politicians?
9 A. You are certainly right about that. It did play a role. I tried
10 to cover as best as I could what he said or wrote down. I entered
11 everything into my diary. I did hear Mr. Brdjanin speak. I'm not sure he
12 was referring only to Muslims on those occasions; however, he was
13 mentioning the number -- the figure of five per cent of non-Serbs who
14 would be allowed to stay. The rest had to pack and go. At least this is
15 how we interpreted what he said.
16 Mr. Brdjanin even had a custom when he was in good mood of telling
17 stories about his Muslim friends in a rather positive manner and over the
18 radio. Unfortunately, those were very rare occasions which could not
19 counteract or undo what he had previously said.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Judge Janu has a question for you.
21 JUDGE JANU: I would just like to know if you can recall at this
22 time when those statements were produced, can you recall whether already
23 these agencies for replacement, exchange of population operating?
24 A. This would have been at the beginning of 1992, yes, certainly.
25 Yes. However, the departures were not en masse, but a large number of
1 people already left. Now, as to how we were aware of that, because we
2 were not receiving any information to that effect, I, as a Catholic, often
3 went to the local cemetery. Before the war, at the local cemetery, one
4 would see many candles burning. But once the war broke out, you could see
5 that there were much less candles burning at the local cemetery. And this
6 is how we concluded that that portion of the population had left.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 64, line 6, the line interpreted "What he
9 said," and then after that full stop. I'm told the witness said: "And
10 later he was saying,`stay here'."
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say that?
12 A. I may have said it, but I don't want to commit myself. I know
13 that he would first say one thing, and then another, and then it was
14 difficult for a person to make up his or her mind.
15 JUDGE JANU: I'm going back to my question because--
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: He hasn't answered your question. What he want to
18 know is whether, in fact, you had stated: "The rest had to pack and go,
19 at least this is how we interpreted what he said. And later he was
20 saying `stay here'." Did you say: "And later he was saying `stay here',"
21 when you were testifying here today, a few minutes ago. Because
22 Mr. Ackerman is alleging that the transcript stops when you had actually
23 continued to say: "And later he was saying `stay here'." Do you remember
24 saying the words: "And later he was saying `stay here'."
25 A. I don't know. Maybe in the context of what I was saying, but from
1 time to time he would say a positive thing, or that he would first say
2 something negative and then something positive. I don't know. It is
3 possible that I said that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think -- just a moment. I think that
6 if Mr. Ackerman wants to make his corrections, the answer is for his case
7 manager to tell him immediately that something -- and then it should be
8 stopped then. Because clearly six questions answered -- I mean, who can
9 remember what they said.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not six questions. But, still, I mean your
11 suggestion is a practical one.
12 Yes, Mr. Ackerman. You're telling me you wouldn't like to
13 interrupt the witness when he was still answering a question.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's for sure. But I wait until the
15 witness is finished. But the other thing, this is important enough that I
16 would like that passage marked and I would like the tape checked because
17 I'm quite certain my case manager is right, that he said that.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That will be attended to, Mr. Ackerman.
19 Yes, Judge Janu.
20 JUDGE JANU: It looks like a paradox if these agencies for
21 replacement or exchange of population were working, and they were working,
22 in my opinion, with the consent of the authorities, would be organising
23 this exchange and at the same time Mr. Brdjanin, as a representative of
24 authority, high-positioned authority, would say: "Don't leave, and I am
25 allowing just the children to be sent away." Nobody else. So I cannot
1 just reconcile these two statements of yours.
2 A. You see, we can get the children out and take them to safety.
3 Now, if the children are not safe in the area, then it tells you a lot
4 about the situation. It was not my comment. I think that it was a quote
5 that I heard. I cannot remember the exact quote. It is true that
6 Brdjanin could say from time to time something that would have pleasantly
7 surprised you. As I have already indicated, he sometimes talked about his
8 Muslims friends in a positive manner. However, if that was preceded by a
9 dozen of -- threats addressed to you, then you cannot take it in that
11 Now, if he says: "Stay here, take up arms," and defend this
12 imaginary country of his, I mean, why would I do a thing like that?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I have a suspicion that his statement may have had
14 something to do with the mobilisation which was given a lot of importance
15 and publicity on that same day.
16 If that is the case, would you change your explanation? Look at
17 your entry of the 5th of May of 1992.
18 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: While he's looking my inquiry is if do you intend
20 to break and then come back and finish by 6.30, or how do you --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I definitely intend to finish by 6.30. I was
22 expecting Madam Registrar to tell me what time to break because I'm a
23 little bit lost.
24 THE REGISTRAR: 6.00.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: That doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. So
1 shall we stop for 15 minutes now?
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, rather than doing that, I mean, we
3 didn't sit again until 5.30 -- or 4.30. So why don't we just continue and
4 leave it.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I would very willingly do that, but I don't want to
6 impose on --
7 MS. KORNER: No. If Your Honours -- it seems to me, it never is
8 15 minutes, so by the time we had all reassembled, it would hardly be
9 worth it.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: What time did we start again, Madam Chuqing? After
11 the break, what time did we start again? But what time was it when we
13 JUDGE JANU: After this last break.
14 THE REGISTRAR: 4.30.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: 4.30. So in 10 minutes' time we would have been
16 sitting for half an hour.
17 Can we proceed for a little bit more and then call it a day? I
18 want to know if I have the okay from --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Just have a look at your entry of the 5th of
21 May, please.
22 A. Yes, I've had a look at it.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm trying to make some sense out of it. It's not
24 normal for people --
25 A. It is directly linked to the issue of mobilisation.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So you exclude now the link with the reaction that
2 there could have been at the time from the international community?
3 Because it can't be both. It's either one or the other.
4 A. Frankly speaking, Your Honour, at this point, my concentration is
5 failing me. I have not read the whole document. I can tell that we're
6 talking about mobilisation here, but with your permission I should like to
7 have the opportunity of reading the whole thing, which I'm prepared to do
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I suggest, really in fairness to
10 him, that's something I was trying to achieve yesterday. If Your Honours
11 would give him overnight the list -- or give us the list of the diary
12 entries you are going to be referring tomorrow so he can reread it in
14 JUDGE AGIUS: There aren't much more, but I can -- I can do that,
15 and thank you for suggesting it, Ms. Korner.
16 We can, actually. This you will come again to us tomorrow after
17 having consulted your...
18 Now, I refer you to your testimony on the 24th of June 2003,
19 reference 18.076. And you're now answering questions on
21 And in reply to a question that was put to you by Mr. Ackerman,
22 you said: "Yes, you cannot just say that it is just Mr. Brdjanin who was
23 creating the atmosphere and raising the tension which would then result in
24 the misfortune that occurred, but the fact is that he is one of them, that
25 is certain, and there is no doubt about that whatsoever."
1 You are certainly implying here that there were others who were
2 creating this atmosphere and fermenting tension. Who were the others?
3 A. For example, Dr. Vukic, Radislav Vukic; he was terrible. Predrag
4 Radic, the mayor of Banja Luka. Vojo Kupresanin, Andjelko Grahovac at the
5 very beginning. He's the only person from the town who joined the gang.
6 Then Miro Mladjenovic, the editor of the Glas, and then Professor Predrag
7 Lazarevic who would become the president of the Serbian intellectuals of
8 Banja Luka who said once when he took the stage: "In these days, it is
9 the birth certificate that best describes a person." So those were the
10 kind of people who were engaged in these things. Not all of them were
11 publicly exposed such as Vukic and Brdjanin, but they all made their own
12 contribution to the misfortune that befell us. There were many others,
13 such as Kasagic and many more.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And out of all these persons that you've mentioned
15 and others that you may not have mentioned, who in your opinion or in your
16 assessment spoke with the most authority?
17 A. Well, I think the one who spoke with the most authority was
18 perhaps Professor Lazarevic. He was a true intellectual unfortunately.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, what --
20 A. Radic also had a certain amount of authority. Many of them had
21 turned coats and became national -- and rode the national tidewave [as
22 interpreted]. They felt that their time had come, but at the same time
23 they only had their own private gain in mind.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: When I'm referring to most authority, I'm referring
25 to political power, someone who speaks. For example, was Professor
1 Lazarevic a person in authority? Or was he just an intellectual and
2 people respected him as an intellectual? I'm not asking about that. I'm
3 asking about who amongst this list of persons that you mentioned to us
4 spoke with authority, with the highest? Who amongst them spoke most with
6 A. I think the four that I mentioned and whom I describe as the four
7 writers of the apocalypse. Kupresanin, Radic, Brdjanin, and Vukic. They
8 spoke with authority from the positions of power. However, in my personal
9 conviction, Professor Lazarevic was equally evil because he also enjoyed
10 authority and respect, and he perhaps encouraged the others to say
11 something that otherwise they would not have said. But once again, the
12 four that I mentioned, they spoke with authority from the positions of
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And the one who spoke most vehemently, with most
15 vehemency, who would you say it would be?
16 A. I cannot decide between Vukic and Brdjanin. Vukic when he was
17 drunk, he would say all kinds of things, and he was usually drunk.
18 Brdjanin was also outspoken, but he had a certain rhetoric in
19 mind. And his speeches were morbid, whereas in the case of Vukic, you
20 could tell that he was an idiot. He was retarded, and he was laughed at
21 by those, by the people who were recording his speeches. Whereas, on the
22 other hand, Brdjanin looked much more serious.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Who amongst the two that you mentioned, Vukic and --
24 who used the strongest terms? Forgetting that one of them, according to
25 you, was inebriated when he made some speeches. He couldn't have been
1 inebriated, drunk, all the time. I mean, I have met people like that in
2 my life.
3 Who out of the two would use the strongest terms when they were
4 both sober?
5 A. I am not aware of Brdjanin ever having been drunk at those public
6 appearances. As for Lukic [as interpreted], he not only drank; he gorged
7 himself on alcohol. When he was drunk, he would say all kinds of things.
8 Brdjanin was never drunk or inebriated, but he could say ugly things,
9 really ugly things.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can we just try and correct the
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I wasn't watching the transcript.
13 MS. KORNER: No. It came through the interpretation as well. It
14 came through as Lukic, and I don't think he said Lukic.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. It was my mistake,
16 Your Honour. It was Vukic.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move. Please refer Mr. Ackerman and
18 Ms. Korner to page 18.169, and this is you testifying again, sir. You
19 say: "In the context of the ARK, the Autonomous Region of Krajina, he" -
20 you're referring to Mr. Brdjanin - "he was certainly quite a big player.
21 As for Republika Srpska, I think even there he was near the top, near the
22 very top. It's difficult for me to say, but I think he was near the top.
23 After all, he was a man who dared to even oppose Karadzic himself
25 I want this clarified. Are you coming to the conclusion or did
1 you come to the conclusion that he was near the top or very near the top
2 because on occasions he even dared to oppose Karadzic himself? Or do you
3 have other information or sources of information that would convince you
4 to repeat three times that -- three times in a few seconds that you are
5 convinced that he was near the top?
6 A. I am convinced that he was indeed near the top, and that is
7 illustrated in his confrontation with Karadzic, not about any central or
8 vital issues. But for instance, what is going to be the capital of
9 Republika Srpska, whether it's going to be Pale or Banja Luka. That's
10 what they confronted each other about. And Brdjanin was able to say well,
11 it's not going to be this way, it's going to be the other way.
12 Now, that they confronted each other or not on matters, I don't
13 believe so. They shared the same plan. It was only this unfortunate
14 issue of whether Banja Luka or Pale or Sarajevo were going to be the
15 capital. In any case, he resisted Karadzic's idea that Sarajevo be the
16 capital. I believe so.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's not because you have additional information,
18 other information that would make you link Mr. Brdjanin with the top?
19 A. Top, the way I saw him, he was always very much publicly exposed.
20 Whenever there was a Serbian Assembly, if you judge it by this, of course
21 he will not ask for the opinion of some of those insignificant people.
22 Sometimes he wouldn't even ask Karadzic but would ask Brdjanin. At least
23 I'm speaking about the Banja Luka TV, when you judge by the way
24 journalists approached him, it is -- they sometimes weigh the importance
25 of the figures when they -- when they're deciding about who to interview.
1 For Karadzic and the other man - what's his name - Krajisnik, well, they
2 would certainly ask Brdjanin to give his opinion rather more frequently
3 than Radic or Vukic.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: 72, line 15, at the period, "It's going to be the
6 other way." I'm told that he then said "It was not so easy to say `no' to
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say that? Did you say that?
9 A. Yes, I believe so.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let me ask you the last question for today,
11 and then I will give you some idea of what we will be asking you tomorrow,
12 and then you can go back to your hotel and rest.
13 On the 15th of July, you made an entry in your diary to which you
14 referred in the course of your testimony and to which you referred a few
15 minutes ago. I mean, I'm taking you back to when you described Brdjanin
16 as part of the three horsemen of the riders of the apocalypse, and the
17 others being Kupresanin, Vukic, and Radic. You also stated in your
18 testimony of the 24th of June 2003 at page 18.167 that out of the four
19 riders of the horsemen of the apocalypse, Brdjanin was without a shadow of
20 doubt the one who appeared most in the media.
21 And then you said something again which intrigued us a little bit.
22 This led you to the conclusion that Brdjanin took the most - this is what
23 you said - "fatal decisions since these were communicated through the
24 media by him."
25 Now, let's forget about the "fatal" for a moment because "fatal"
1 has got its own connotations. Who was taking these decisions, these
2 decisions that he was communicating, according to you, through the media?
3 Because -- let me -- the way I read it, the way I read it, you're not
4 saying there were these four horsemen of the apocalypse, and each one of
5 them was communicating the decisions taken by them or by someone through
6 the media. You're saying that they were four horsemen of the apocalypse -
7 you mentioned them - of whom it was Brdjanin who appeared most in the
8 media; it was Brdjanin who took the most fatal decisions, took the most
9 fatal decisions since these were communicated through the media by him.
10 And what were the others doing? Who was taking these decisions?
11 A. Let me tell you: These four persons were the nucleus of power in
12 the town. They decided about everything relating to the very town of
13 Banja Luka. They probably had some instructions from Pale, from those
14 above. They were in communication. I'm not saying that a specific
15 decision was taken by Radoslav Brdjanin; but among the four, the decision
16 was indeed taken. And normally, he would present the decision. That's
17 why I said that he would be the one to disclose the decision of a sort,
18 and that is why I highlighted him as such.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: When you say it was these same circumstances that
20 led you to the conclusion that Brdjanin took the most fatal decisions,
21 since these were communicated through the media by him, do you mean to
22 tell us that the decisions actually were not necessarily his, but they
23 were the combined -- the joint --
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm so sorry. Before Your Honour goes
25 on, I simply cannot see what Your Honour is looking at. All I can see on
1 the transcript is "Most of the fatal decisions were taken by Brdjanin."
2 Where does Your Honour see it was communicated through the media? I can't
3 find that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This is what I'm asking. Are you saying
5 this --
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Because at the moment -- I
7 understood you to be reading that he said this before, but he hasn't.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: No. What I am putting to him is that now that he is
9 telling us that the decisions were taken conjointly and not by
10 Mr. Brdjanin, does he stand by his statement that since it was Brdjanin
11 who mostly appeared in the media communicating these decisions, that the
12 perception from the public would be that it is Brdjanin who is taking
13 these decisions? What were you exactly saying? Because this is how I
14 understood it.
15 A. In fact, the public thought that he was the one taking the
16 decisions. Now, to what degree his role went in taking the decisions, I
17 cannot say. But I think that most of the, so to say, "ugly" decisions
18 that related to us specifically, well, he was the one who presented them.
19 And I'm not saying that this automatically meant that he was the one who
20 decided upon these issues.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is what you told us way back on the 24th of
22 June, that -- if you read what you stated on the 24th of June, one might
23 get carried away with the idea that you were saying -- that you were
24 telling us that the most fatal decisions were actually taken by Brdjanin.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm so sorry. But really, what he
1 actually said was: "Most of the fatal decisions, at least the way it
2 seemed, were taken by Brdjanin. I am not sure if that was only an outward
3 representation of his power and his desire to be in the forefront."
4 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I'm asking whether this is a perception
5 that the public and whoever watched the media at the time must have got or
6 probably got simply because it was Brdjanin who was appearing more often
7 than the others?
8 A. Yes, yes. Precisely. This is the impression one would get.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, we'll stop here for today. I would
10 like you to -- do you have a pen nearby? Yes, I would like him to make
11 some notes on what we will be asking him tomorrow. Perhaps he can check.
12 Now, entry 9th April 1992, when you draw a comparison between Glas
13 and Goebbels' Volkischer Beobachter? We will ask you to clarify that for
15 15th July 1992, you say that you spoke to Miro Mladjenovic trying
16 to encourage him in his fight against the powerful triumvirate...
17 et cetera. How could you reconcile you going to Glas and encourage
18 Mladjenovic when you were comparing his paper to Goebbels Volkischer
20 A. I can give you an answer immediately.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, tomorrow. Because everyone has a right to a
23 And then you refer also to the pressure which was exerted on
24 Mladjenovic. We want more details on that. And we also want details as
25 to whether the editorial policy of Glas changed at all following his
1 removal, and whether what happened to Glas was just particular to Glas or
2 whether it happened also with regard to other newspapers.
3 Am I running too fast for you?
4 A. Go ahead.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And then you had an entry on the 4th of August 1992
6 where you make reference to the red van in Banja Luka. We would like to
7 know whether the existence of this red van was reported in the media at
8 the time. And if so, how widely.
9 And then your entry of the 11th August wherein you refer to your
10 knowledge of the laws that prevented Muslims from moving around in
11 Celinac. We want to know how you came by this information.
12 And then finally, you will recall -- page 18.180 of the
13 transcript, for the benefit of counsel. You recall testifying about a man
14 who got beaten when you brought him to a doctor, and we have a picture, a
15 photo of him. We would like more information on the event, also about his
16 ethnicity, because that did not come out in the course of your testimony.
17 And always, with regard to this particular incident, whether you recall
18 any reports in the media on it or on similar incidents that you may be
19 aware of.
20 So we'll give you a rest --
21 A. Excuse me. What was this -- the date, that is, this incident
22 about the man being beaten up, which entry should I look at?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, there is no entry. It's you refer to this
24 incident in your testimony. If necessary, we can print out the excerpt
25 from page 18 -- but he won't understand it.
1 A. Fine, fine. Fine. I will find my way.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr. Ackerman. I see you standing for a reason or?
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah, I would just like a note made and the tape
5 checked, page 75, line 20. It's believed that he said: "Perhaps those
6 decisions were taken by someone else", there at the end of line 20. I
7 would just like the tape to be checked and a note to be made about that.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine. Okey-dokey.
9 Yes, Ms. Korner.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there's one other thing. Because the
11 witness thought that, as we all did, it was going to be fairly quick, he
12 has arranged to have dinner with someone from the office, nobody connected
13 with our team. Now, it's a matter for Your Honours whether Your Honours
14 wish to allow him to do this on the strict understanding he cannot discuss
15 the evidence, or prefer to tell them he should not do it.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is this? Let's go into private session.
17 [Private session]
12 Page 24730 – redacted – private session.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.21 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of
5 February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.