Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 509

1 Friday, 13th July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody.

7 Well, Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

9 Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Appearances for today. Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

14 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom.

15 For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Aditya Menon, and our case

16 manager, Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

20 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson on behalf of the Defence team of

21 General Delic, with assistants Asja Zujo and Lejla Gluhic, legal officers.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

23 Just to indicate that as you can see, we are just two today. We

24 are sitting 15 bis because Judge Harhoff is sitting in Milosevic.

25 May the Chamber please move into private session -- or just a

Page 510

1 second, before we do that. Sorry, Mr. Registrar.

2 I'm not quite sure whether we --

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're still in open session, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're still in open session.

5 I'm not quite sure if we can do this with the witness still in

6 court. Maybe what we should do -- how long are you likely to be with this

7 witness, madam?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, between an hour and

9 an hour and an hour and 15 minutes, I believe.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask that we excuse the witness for two

11 minutes. There's just a little point that we need to sort out.

12 Thank you very much.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber then please move into private

15 session.

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honour.

Page 513

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 May the witness please be called in.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps while the witness is coming

4 in, I will be meeting with the witness that was the subject of that motion

5 over the weekend. And, undoubtedly, he'll ask me, and I'm just curious as

6 to when we might receive a written decision, or if I can orally inform him

7 that those measures will be granted.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 MR. MUNDIS: We can perhaps wait until after the completion of

10 this witness's testimony.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Mr. Mundis -- I beg your pardon, Madam

12 Vidovic.

13 Madam Vidovic.


15 [Witness answered through interpretation]

16 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Begovic.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. Yesterday, we came to the point where we talked about your moving

21 from the 306th Brigade to the El Mujahedin Unit. I should like you to see

22 another document of the 306th Brigade. I should like you to see another

23 document of the 306th Brigade.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

25 document D26. This is a document of the 3rd Corps, the number being

Page 514

1 02/33-1860 of the 2nd of August, 1993. It is entitled, "Report on

2 Inspection of the 306th Brigade."

3 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to pay attention to this first part

4 of the document.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we focus on the first half of

6 the document, please. Thank you very much.

7 Q. I will quote for you a short excerpt from this document.

8 First of all, Witness, as far as I understood, you had no occasion

9 to examine these documents, to see these documents. So I'm not going to

10 ask you about the document, per se, but only in connection with some facts

11 which are referred to in this document, a document of the brigade to which

12 you belonged to approximately up to this time.

13 The date on the document is the 2nd August 1993. Do you agree

14 with that? Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'm going to now quote for you a short part of this document,

17 which says: "At the Command of the 306th Brigade in the village of

18 Krpeljici, Lubenovic, the Commander of the 4th Battalion of the 306th

19 Brigade, informed the brigade chief and us that one platoon from Kotor

20 Varos should no longer wish to be part of the strength of the 306th

21 Brigade, and wish to join the 17th Glorious Krajina Brigade immediately.

22 "Also from the Muslim forces station in Mehurici village, a

23 communication was sent to all villages, calling soldiers for a 40-day

24 training. The question of timely rotation of personnel in the Ljuta Greda

25 and Srebrno Brdo, and other centres was raised, and there is also serious

Page 515

1 problems with soldiers leaving this brigade for the 17th Glorious Krajina

2 Brigade, the Muslim forces in Mehurici village."

3 In regard to this document, I'm going to put a question to you in

4 relation to something I believe you are able to tell us.

5 The sector of Ljuta Greda is an area that you said was covered by

6 precisely your unit prior to your departure from that unit. Is that a

7 fact?

8 A. Well, partly so, yes.

9 Q. And you will agree, will you not, that this document, in fact,

10 demonstrates the actual -- reflects the actual problem in the field? This

11 problem did exist in the field, did it not?

12 A. Yes, I think that it did.

13 Q. Yesterday, you told us that there was a disorganization obtaining.

14 If I were to claim that what it in fact was a state of chaos in the

15 military organisation, at that time, in the field, would I be right to

16 qualify it thus?

17 A. Well, at any rate, it was a difficult situation due to different

18 things, in addition to the things which you also mentioned.

19 Q. Because the document, again, refers to people leaving the 306th to

20 go to the 17th Brigade, or the Muslim -- to join the Muslim forces in

21 Mehurici. That was the reality; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you accept that people in the 306th Brigade were fully aware

24 of the problem of people -- rather fighters leaving the brigade?

25 A. Yes. They were probably aware of that.

Page 516

1 Q. If I assert that the 306th Brigade, in fact, had no means of

2 preventing that, would I be right?

3 A. I can confirm that on the basis of my own case. Probably had no

4 resources, had no means with which to prevent such practices.

5 Q. Can you clarify what you mean when you say "on my own example, my

6 own case"?

7 A. Well, as I already said, I went there without leave, without

8 authority. There were no sanctions for me. Now, whether the 306th

9 Brigade had any means to get me to go back to the brigade, I don't know

10 that.

11 Q. Do you agree that the situation was such that it was either that

12 the 306th Brigade would have to put tens of people in to jail or just

13 simply accept the situation as it was?

14 A. Well, you couldn't put people in jail then. We had a front line

15 to maintain towards the Army of the Republika Srpska, which was quite a

16 lengthy line; and then, again, there was the portion against the HVO, so

17 people had to maintain the lines.

18 Q. I take that to confirm what I am saying. There was no way to

19 prevent these transfers, these moves, rather?

20 A. Well, I don't know. There wasn't. There was no way to prevent

21 it.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. We are talking about the 306th Brigade and

23 the time you were there. It did not have an armed military police that

24 could or would carry out such arrests, even if it wanted to arrest people;

25 am I right?

Page 517

1 A. I cannot give you a precise answer to that.

2 Q. That is enough. Thank you.

3 Now I should like to quote for you a different small part of this

4 document.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown page

6 2 of this document. The ERN number is 0182/380 [as interpreted].

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt you, Madam Vidovic, that

8 document, what do we do with D26?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are still on the

10 same document.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The number of the

12 document is 0182-1380.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So, Witness, I wish to show you the second page of this document.

15 Please be so kind as to take a look at the proposed measures, proposed

16 measures, and Item 4 of that particular paragraph, where it says:

17 "Resolve the problem of the El Jihad formation in Mehurici village

18 in terms of their placement in the establishments of some of the existing

19 brigades or proclaim them paramilitaries (Corps Command-Organ for

20 Mobilisation)."

21 What is your view of this, Witness? The reality was that the

22 306th Brigade was faced with these problems in the field, the problems

23 with the Arabs, because people joined them; is that correct?

24 A. Right, that is correct.

25 Q. You would agree that the document demonstrates -- and I'll ask you

Page 518

1 for your opinion, too. The document demonstrates the 306th considered

2 that by placing them within the ABiH, the problems with the Mujahedin

3 would be solved. Does that in fact reflect the reality, in your opinion,

4 because you're a member?

5 A. I haven't fully understood your question.

6 Q. My question was as follows: The document states that the 306th

7 Brigade suggests that El Jihad be placed within the establishment of the

8 ABiH, that it become part of the ABiH. My question is: Do you agree that

9 this document, in fact, demonstrates that the 306th Brigade had the

10 following position: It thought that by acting in this way, the problems

11 with the Mujahedin would be resolved? Or let me put it this way: Placing

12 the Mujahedin under the control of some formation - it doesn't have to be

13 the 306th Brigade; it could be any formation, any unit in the army - by

14 doing this, the problems could have been resolved? Is that something that

15 everyone was aware of, that all of you in the brigade were aware of,

16 before you transferred?

17 A. Well, I don't know much about that. Probably people from the

18 brigade considered that would be a way of solving the problem, but I don't

19 know.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Your Honours, could we have an exhibit number for this document,

22 please.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted into

24 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 89.

Page 519

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, I hope I won't have to show you a lot of other documents,

4 but, nevertheless, I have two or three more documents to show you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness

6 document D28. The document is from the Security Organ of the 306th

7 Brigade, yet again, and it concerns the people that you were a member from

8 the 20th of May, 1993. The title is "Official Note on the Killing of Atif

9 Brkic, son of Sakib."

10 I'll read out a minor part of the document. It's up on the screen

11 now. Could we highlight the part where we can see the date, the 25th, the

12 25th of May; and then up until the end of the document, I consider that

13 some of these parts are relevant.

14 Q. I'll read out a small part of the document. The document states

15 the following: "On the 25th of May, 1993, a group of Mujahedin, who are

16 not under the control of our brigade and are billeted in Mehurici, that is

17 to say, in the area of responsibility of the 306th Brigade, reconnoitered

18 the Probijeno Brdo sector, elevation 1009, without having asked for

19 permission and without having informed anyone."

20 I'm only interested in this paragraph, so my question is as

21 follows: Your company was in the vicinity of the Mujahedin at the time

22 that this document was drafted; isn't that in fact the case? That's what

23 you said yesterday.

24 And as far as this is concerned, my question is: It's correct to

25 say that the Mujahedin did not request you to provide them with permission

Page 520

1 to go and reconnoiter; am I correct?

2 A. Well, I don't know whether they were in my vicinity or not, but

3 I'm familiar with this event. They didn't ask me for anything. I had no

4 contact with them.

5 Q. Thank you. You said you're familiar with the event?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you do know, Mr. Atif Brkic, son of Sakib?

8 A. I did know him, yes.

9 Q. You mean he is deceased. He has died now; isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So this document conveys information that is correct with regard

12 to what happened to him?

13 A. Yes. There was a conflict between the HVO forces and the

14 Mujahedin, and this young man was killed.

15 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you told us that you were some kind of a

16 company commander there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You personally never received information of any kind from the

19 Arabs with regard to the results of their reconnoitering?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have an

22 exhibit number for this document, please.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

24 please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 90.

Page 521

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Begovic, during your testimony yesterday, you said that your

4 company fought in the Percin area; is that correct? You said you were in

5 the Percin area?

6 A. Yes. Just a minute, let me clarify this. In the course of that

7 action, I was just a simple soldier. I didn't participate in that action

8 with my company, if you understood me. I would just like to correct that.

9 But, yes, I was present there.

10 Q. You were present there. Thank you very much.

11 On that occasion, you said that you heard rumours according to

12 which the Arabs had arrived from the direction of Simulje; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes. To our left, that's what was said.

15 Q. And you marked this on the map; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes, we did that yesterday or the day before.

17 Q. In fact, at the time, you weren't with the Arabs at all; isn't

18 that correct?

19 A. No, I wasn't.

20 Q. And you didn't see or couldn't observe their movement?

21 A. No. We just heard about the directions they would be going in,

22 but I didn't see them.

23 Q. And when you were testifying, you were, in fact, only assuming the

24 direction that they were heading in; would that be a fair conclusion?

25 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps you could put it that way.

Page 522

1 Q. How would you put it? You didn't know the exact direction they

2 were moving in?

3 A. Well, yes, I didn't know that it was said that they were be going

4 over through Simulje, in the direction of Borje. I said I can't trace the

5 exact direction, the route on that map, but perhaps the approximate

6 direction. As to the whether it was the exact direction, I don't know,

7 but it was more or less that direction.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. When you say that there were rumours, that

9 this is what you were told, I assume that this isn't something that your

10 commander told you. You heard rumours in the field?

11 A. Well, this is what the troops would say.

12 Q. So it's not the commander who told you this?

13 A. No, it wasn't.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness, for that clarification.

15 Witness, I will now show you a number of documents that relate to

16 the detachment itself. It has more to do, in fact, with what the

17 Prosecution showed you yesterday.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown document

19 67.

20 There seems to be some minor confusion. Not Defence document, but

21 it's Exhibit 67. It was tendered into evidence yesterday, and the number

22 of the first page is 03642916.

23 Yes. Thank you very much. That's the document.

24 Q. Witness, please have a look at this document once again. It's a

25 document that the Prosecution has already shown you. I'd like us to

Page 523

1 examine this document in detail.

2 Would you agree with me that it says number 001/93, receipt

3 number, and then there are columns, there are numbers; and then a column

4 that concerns quantity, title, price, and then total at the bottom. It

5 says "Issued by," "Approved by," "Received by."

6 And, Witness, my question about this document is the following: I

7 believe that you have seen a lot of documents on various occasions. I

8 don't just mean documents in this case, but I'm referring to official

9 documents in general. Am I correct?

10 A. Yes. I've seen a lot of documents. I don't know how many, but I

11 have seen a lot of documents.

12 Q. Very well. You've also seen a lot of receipts that we receive in

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina, when we buy something in shops or when we obtain

14 goods from a warehouse or when we obtain or buy clothes and food.

15 Would you agree that what you have in front of yourself, in fact,

16 looks like a bill from a shop; it doesn't really look like some sort of

17 official document? It mentions prices here, et cetera. Would you agree

18 with that?

19 A. I don't know. It looks more like something that you'd get from a

20 company of some kind, some kind of equipment from a firm.

21 Q. Thank you for that explanation. Let's have a look at the second

22 page of the document, 03642917.

23 Have a look at the document, at its contents briefly.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And perhaps the usher could

25 highlight or enlarge the part from number 1 to number 11.

Page 524

1 Q. Yesterday, or the day before yesterday, when answering the

2 Prosecution's questions, well, you were asked about various individuals.

3 Various names from this list were mentioned, and you were asked about

4 them. You recognised some of them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in addition to when you were shown photographs, Exhibit number

7 68, you identified Mr. Abu Aiman, and you said translator. That's the

8 number 11, Deputy Commander for Security, Abu Aiman. You said he was a

9 translator.

10 Isn't it correct to say that while you were in the detachment, he

11 worked as a translator throughout that period?

12 A. As far as I know, those were the activities he was most involved

13 in. For example, when Sheikh Enver had to come, Abu Maali, well, that's

14 what he was involved in mostly.

15 Q. You mean --

16 A. I don't know about this title here, this description.

17 Q. You said you were the emir in a group -- of a group, and it would

18 be logical to conclude that you should know who the Deputy Commander for

19 Security was, if there was such a commander; isn't that correct?

20 A. I really don't know. I didn't know that.

21 Q. So you wouldn't agree that it's correct to say that Abu Aiman was

22 the Assistant for Security?

23 A. I know he was a translator; but as to his establishment position,

24 I really don't know what it was.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness now

Page 525

1 be shown the third page of this document.

2 Q. The third page, please, have a look at it. It says: "Subject:

3 List of Unit Members." Have a look at the columns. It says, "Number,"

4 "First and last name," "Date and place of birth," and then have a look at

5 the last column. It says: "In the ABiH as of." Am I correct?

6 A. That's what it says.

7 Q. Yesterday, you testified at length about the fact that it says

8 here that you were in the army as of the 31st of July, 1993.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

10 03642920. It's the same document.

11 Q. So we have your name there. You found your name there yesterday?

12 A. Yes, towards the end of the column.

13 Q. Yes. Yesterday, the Prosecutor asked you about the date, the 31st

14 of July, and you can see that it concerns membership of the ABiH as of the

15 31st of July. Isn't it correct to say that you were, in fact, a member of

16 the 306th Brigade from the beginning of the war?

17 So from the very beginning of the war, you were an ABiH member;

18 isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So would you agree that this information in this document,

21 according to which you were an ABiH member at the 31st of July, 1993,

22 isn't correct?

23 A. Well, a mistake was made here, that's for sure.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

Page 526

1 inform you of the fact that I contest the authenticity of this document.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was this document not admitted yesterday, madam, or

3 the day before?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. However, I

5 think that we discussed the admissibility of that document at that point.

6 But on the basis of what the witness has said, I doubt its probative

7 value. Actually, I have reason to believe that the document is not

8 authentic, having heard this explanation given by the witness. I shall

9 also require to see the original of this document.

10 And, Your Honours, you will appreciate the fact that the Defence

11 is not always in a position to challenge the authenticity of documents

12 until it has a reason for it, and we have been given just such a reason in

13 the testimony of the witness.

14 So we have two situations: One is the admissibility of the

15 document, and the second is its value, its probity, and its authenticity.

16 Your Honours, if you believe me to be wrong, in future, I shall

17 always ask in advance when a document is being tendered; that is, I shall

18 always take my position with regards its authenticity. But if I am

19 substantiated in my belief that I have to challenge its authenticity by

20 the witness's statement, I believe that I am entitled to do so at any

21 point in the proceedings.

22 Thank you.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Your Honours, this is actually the first time we've heard a

Page 527

1 challenge to the authenticity of this document. I'm speaking on behalf of

2 the Office of the Prosecutor, as was the case with the document that was

3 shown yesterday, in which Mrs. Vidovic challenged the authenticity of the

4 document. And I would simply indicate at this point that if there are

5 going to be challenges to the authenticity of the exhibits on the

6 Prosecution list, I would ask to be informed by the Defence with respect

7 to any and all documents on the Prosecution list that they're challenging

8 with respect to authenticity grounds, so that this problem does not recur.

9 With respect to the original of this document, as I indicated when

10 this question arose from Judge Harhoff, that this document was seized from

11 the Security Services in Zenica in January 2005. With respect to the

12 originals, which Mrs. Vidovic also challenged with respect to a document

13 yesterday, the Prosecution does not have in its possession the originals

14 of these documents. We have scanned versions or photocopy versions.

15 So if Mrs. Vidovic insists upon seeing the originals, she will

16 have to go to the archives in the region in order to do that, because all

17 we have here, with very, very few exceptions, are photocopies or scanned

18 copies of the majority of the documents on the Prosecution exhibit list.

19 So I'm simply alerting the Chamber and the Defence to that issue

20 so that if this becomes a recurring issue, we will be forced to take

21 additional steps, because we don't have the originals, with some

22 exceptions, of course. But this document, we do not have the original. A

23 copy of this was taken from the Security Services in Zenica in January

24 2005, as I explained two days ago.

25 But, again, if there are going to be recurring challenges to the

Page 528

1 authenticity of the documents, the Prosecution will submit that that's a

2 bit late, given the stage we're at in these proceedings, when the 65 ter

3 exhibit list was filed on the 31st of October, 2006. And to date, we have

4 not received any specific complaints or any detailed letter in which the

5 Defence have challenged the authenticity of the documents on the

6 Prosecution exhibit list.

7 And, again, this will cause substantial problems, in our

8 respectful view, if this issue continues to arise during the course of the

9 trial.

10 With respect to this specific document, we will simply say that

11 the fact that this witness has indicated that one of the dates on the

12 document might be incorrect does not in any way undermine the authenticity

13 of the document, in light of the fact that the source of the document and

14 how the Office of the Prosecutor came about the document. Minor errors on

15 the face of documents do not necessarily render them inaccurate or

16 unauthentic, I should have said.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. Can I

19 just reply?

20 First and foremost, I believe that the Defence has the right to

21 examine every original and to request to be made available every original

22 which the Prosecution is using against the accused. And, in fact, I

23 believe in your decision on the instruction on conduct during the

24 proceedings that you have given an instruction to that effect.

25 I should like to say this, Your Honours: Of course, we have

Page 529

1 received the 65 ter list, which contains over 3.000 documents, and, of

2 course, we are investigating each and every document. In every stage of

3 the proceedings, we can come to realise that a document is not authentic,

4 that the document is not authentic, even after judgement has been passed.

5 So we have reason to doubt it, especially if we hear from the

6 mouth of the witness that he's not a lieutenant and the document states

7 that he is a lieutenant, or if there is a different heading on the

8 document, which the witness says is incorrect. That is the best

9 indication for the Defence, which corroborates its doubts.

10 So I believe that this response by the Prosecution is not

11 grounded; namely, that we have to make such objections beforehand, because

12 as often as not we are not in a position to do so. I believe that we can

13 do that at any moment when we obtain valid information to the effect that

14 the document is not authentic.

15 Believe me, Your Honours, we are investigating these documents in

16 earnest, and we shall continue to do so until the proceedings have been

17 validly concluded. It is not up to the Defence to go and investigate the

18 archives, because it is the Prosecution that has actually brought the

19 accused to this dock.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a procedural question which neither of you

21 is addressing, which concerns me.

22 I can understand the Defence doubting the authenticity of the

23 document, but to leave a witness in the witness box and now address the

24 question of authenticity seems to me to be procedurally not the right

25 thing to do. I would have expected that you would demonstrate, by your

Page 530

1 questions to this witness, how you find the document not to be authentic;

2 like the questions you've asked, "You say you were a lieutenant. You were

3 never a lieutenant." I think you also said that the date, 31st of July,

4 1993, is incorrect. That's fine. You established those facts. And at

5 the time of final submissions, you then address the question of

6 authenticity, because now we have left the witness.

7 We're dealing with something here which the witness has nothing to

8 do with. It's a legal issue that we will resolve at the time. Am I right

9 in this procedural setting out of issues? I'm not talking about the

10 substantive objection. I'm talking about just how to deal with the

11 objection.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you are quite right.

13 I apologise. I overlooked that and should have asked for the witness to

14 be ushered out of the courtroom.

15 Of course --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: He doesn't have to go out of the courtroom. You

17 carry on with cross-examining him. You get as many facts from him as you

18 can that corroborate your submission that the document is not authentic,

19 and you let him go. At the time of making your final submissions, you

20 then argue that, yes, this document is admitted into evidence; however, it

21 is not authentic for the following reasons, and we ask you to attach

22 little or no probative value to it."

23 I thought procedurally that's how you would handle it.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Yes. I

25 have understood this, and this is an instruction that I'm going to abide

Page 531

1 by in future.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Will the court official now show the

4 witness two documents, the usher, the documents numbers of which are

5 Exhibit numbers 65 and 66. So these are the exhibit numbers that were

6 assigned yesterday. These are not the numbers of the Defence exhibits.

7 Can you just scroll down so the witness can see the date on the

8 document. Very well.

9 Q. Do you agree, Witness, that the date on this document is the 9th

10 of September, 1993?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Will you now show Exhibit

13 number 65 -- actually, 66, the next one.

14 This is the same document. Can you show document 65, the document

15 number 65 that was accepted yesterday, dated the 28th of August, 1993.

16 Can we see page 2 of this document, please, and can we see the

17 following page, the next page. Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, please take a look at the date, the 28th of August, 1993.

19 Do you see that date?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Very well. Do you agree that that could have been the time when

22 the official establishment of the El Mujahedin Detachment started? I'm

23 referring to the second half of August 1993. Was that -- was that after

24 you had joined the El Mujahedin Detachment?

25 A. Yes, I was already down there. I was following some training, and

Page 532

1 I believe that this document is some correspondence between some units,

2 perhaps the 306th Brigade. It is some sort of authorisation, but only

3 after we had already joined them a month later or so.

4 Q. All right. But do we agree that all this was happening after the

5 detachment which was called -- which was given the name El Mujahed, as you

6 said yesterday, did all this take place after that?

7 A. I don't know the dates.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'm going to ask you several questions

9 pertaining to the detachment itself.

10 Would you accept that the detachment, throughout the time that you

11 were a member of it, did not function in the way that other units

12 functioned; for instance, the way the 306th Brigade functioned, in which

13 you had been before that; is that correct?

14 A. Well, I have already said the organisation was not much. We had

15 combat groups. We had some formations, some units. We composed a

16 company, and the situation in the other units was different.

17 Q. Now I'm reading the transcript. You said first "No," meaning you

18 confirmed that it did not function like the other units; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, you are right.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am stressing this, Your Honours,

21 because this is not recorded in the transcript, this part of the witness's

22 answer. That's why I am clarifying it with the witness.

23 Q. In fact, the Arabs did have their organisational rules which they

24 were implementing in the detachment, did they not?

25 A. Yes, within the detachment it was like that.

Page 533

1 Q. That is what I'm asking: Within the detachment?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said that they had combat groups which had their emirs?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You, yourself, were an emir, the emir of such a group?

6 A. Yes, towards the very end of the war, I was. I was the emir of a

7 group.

8 Q. Am I right if I say that, outside the detachment, no one could

9 join such groups without the emir's authorisation?

10 A. I didn't quite understand you. Are you talking about combat

11 activities or something else?

12 Q. I'm speaking in general. The order had a certain organisational

13 structure, and there was someone in control, the leadership of the

14 detachment was; am I right?

15 A. Yes, you are.

16 Q. So am I right when I say that people just couldn't come and join

17 the detachment from just anywhere, from the road?

18 A. You are right. They couldn't.

19 Q. Also, without authorisation of the leadership of the detachment,

20 no one who was not -- no one unfamiliar and no one who was not invited,

21 called to join the detachment, could do so and go to combat with you?

22 A. Well, as far as the Bosniaks are concerned, they couldn't; but

23 with the Arabs, the situation was different.

24 Q. I will come to that later. I will revert to that later, rather.

25 In giving testimony in responding to the OTP's questions yesterday, you

Page 534

1 spoke about religious instruction. It was more or less on the same level

2 as the combat instruction was, wasn't it?

3 A. Well, quite a lot of attention was devoted to religious

4 instruction.

5 Q. Do you agree that other units of the Army of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina did not have something like that, with perhaps the exception

7 of the 7th Muslim Brigade in a certain period?

8 A. No, they certainly did not.

9 Q. You referred to Arabs. They commanded money, had at their

10 disposal money. They bought weapons and equipment for the detachment; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. I should like to ask you, once again, to look at Exhibit 67, which

14 we already saw before.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This one, I think, was 65 or 66; so

16 67, please. This document, can we please take a look at page 03642917.

17 Can we zoom in on this note, this annotation on this document, the

18 handwritten annotation.

19 Your Honours, in the translation into English, it is at the very

20 bottom of the English document.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. If we could be shown the very

22 bottom of the English version, please. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, do you agree that it is written here, in quite legible

25 handwriting: "Request all data with passport numbers," and indications

Page 535

1 which country issued the passports. This is actually prompts my next

2 question: You were a member of this detachment ever since its founding

3 until the end of the war; is that correct? That's what you told us?

4 A. Well, yes, I was from August 1993.

5 Q. I'm talking about the El Mujahedin Detachment.

6 A. Well, yes, about that date.

7 Q. Okay. Very well. You would agree with me, would you not, that

8 the Arabs did not use their own names, not even in communicating with

9 other members of the detachment; is that so? Do you know anything about

10 that?

11 A. Well, they predominantly had the nicknames that they -- that were

12 given them. What their actual names and their biographies are or were, I

13 don't know, and I don't know if there are any differences between the two.

14 Q. Would I be correct to say if I said that not even you, members of

15 the detachment, knew what their real names were?

16 A. No. We didn't know their real names.

17 Q. You didn't know those names, on the whole, names like Abu

18 something or Ebu something; isn't that correct?

19 A. Well, yes, that was most frequently the case.

20 Q. Sometimes, many of them had the same nickname; isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. When you were shown the series of photographs, I believe it was

23 Exhibit 68. You were shown a series of photographs, Exhibit 68; and when

24 you were shown these photographs, you identified Abu Hamza.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to save times, Your

Page 536

1 Honours, I don't think it's necessary to go through the exercise once

2 again.

3 Q. But you identified this individual, and you said that you knew Abu

4 Hamza. So please tell me, do you agree that many Arabs who were active in

5 Central Bosnia during the war, in fact, had such a nickname?

6 A. Yes, I agree with that.

7 Q. And that's also the case for Abu Zubayr, would you agree with

8 that? There were a number of individuals who had such a nickname? Do you

9 know anything about this?

10 A. I've heard about one person.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you.

12 A. I don't know about a number of such individuals.

13 Q. Thank you. Given what you said a while ago, when testifying about

14 the Arabs, well, you said, "I know about the Bosnians; they couldn't

15 enter." But as far as the Arabs are concerned, you said, "I know

16 nothing." So it's true that not even you Bosnians in the detachment knew

17 the actual situation? You didn't know the actual number of Arabs who were

18 members of the detachment?

19 A. Well, we didn't know. Some would come; others would go. When

20 there was an action of some kind, then a lot of them would arrive. I

21 don't know where they came from.

22 Q. As far as that's concerned, please tell me the following: There

23 is a detachment that you stayed in. Well, it's true to say that these

24 areas were under the control of the Arabs; isn't that correct?

25 A. Well, not just under the control of the Arabs. There were guards

Page 537

1 wherever we had a camp. There were guards. No one could enter without

2 Enver's permission. Even if Rasim Delic had appeared, it would have been

3 necessary for his entry to be authorised.

4 Q. If I've understood you correctly, regardless of the situation, if

5 a member of the High Command wanted to enter and see something, regardless

6 of that fact, it wouldn't be possible without the emir's authorisation?

7 A. No. Without the emir's authorisation, this would not have been

8 possible.

9 Q. And the fact that it was someone from the High Command would in no

10 way have been of assistance to that person?

11 A. Well, I'm saying that it would have been necessary to ask the

12 emir. He couldn't have entered without asking the emir.

13 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that the detachment had its own

14 rules of conduct, which didn't have much to do with the rules and

15 regulations of the ABiH? Is that correct?

16 A. Well, within the detachment, we didn't really adhere to those

17 rules, that's for sure.

18 Q. I'll now go back to the El Mujahedin Detachment. You said you

19 didn't know exactly when it was formed, but I'd like to ask you about

20 something else now. If I have understood you correctly, you joined a group

21 of Arabs, and you fought together with that group.

22 My question is as follows: It would be incorrect to claim that

23 all the Arabs who were active in Central Bosnia joined the El Mujahedin

24 Detachment; isn't that correct?

25 A. Well, they weren't all in that detachment. There were other

Page 538

1 people, other individuals, in humanitarian organisations.

2 Q. Very well. In addition to these people who were in humanitarian

3 organisations, you're referring to Arab humanitarian organisations, aren't

4 you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Wouldn't it be correct to say that apart from these people, there

7 were many other groups of Arabs that never joined the detachment; am I

8 correct?

9 A. Well, there were such groups who didn't agree with the detachment

10 command. There were a few such groups, not just Arabs, though; groups of

11 Turks, for example.

12 Q. Yes, the Turkish guerrilla?

13 A. Yes, that was in Zenica.

14 Q. The Turkish guerrilla from Zenica never joined the El Mujahedin

15 Detachment; am I right?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. There was a group at Gluha Bukovica; were you aware of this group?

18 A group of Arabs - I'm always referring to a group of Arabs - at Gluha

19 Bukovica. Did you know about this group?

20 A. No.

21 Q. There was a group at Bistricak?

22 A. I've heard about that group.

23 Q. There was a group in Zeljezno Polje?

24 A. I've heard about that group, too.

25 Q. There was a group in Tesanj?

Page 539

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So that group of Arabs also existed, and let's say there was a

3 group in the vicinity of Visoko?

4 A. I don't know about that one.

5 Q. Very well. The groups I have just listed never fought under the

6 command of the El Mujahedin Detachment; am I right?

7 A. I think that's true.

8 Q. It would be wrong to assign acts of these groups to the El

9 Mujahedin Detachment; isn't that correct?

10 A. I don't know who you're referring to. Naturally, if they did

11 something, well, this couldn't be attributed to the detachment itself.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I ask a question, madam?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did these groups fight at all?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question for me?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In some areas, yes, these groups did

18 fight, for example. Well, they were always independent and with the army.

19 For the Arabs to fight was like going to a football match.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: On whose side did they fight?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, on the side of the ABiH, on

22 this side over here, on our side.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: When they did fight, against whom were they

24 fighting?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, against the Republika Srpska

Page 540

1 army.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they under the control of the Army of Bosnia

3 and Herzegovina?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [In English] I have a question.

7 [Interpretation] Witness, since you were fighting the same enemy,

8 the ABiH and the group that you joined, I recognise that is not quite the

9 same thing, but we don't -- we didn't quite know at that time. Was there

10 any single coordination of the operations?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [In English] Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, I'll now continue in that vein. When you said that these

15 groups fought on the side of the army, you wanted to say that they were

16 fighting the same enemy?

17 A. That's what I wanted to say. We were on the same side.

18 Q. But you have no knowledge according to which they were under the

19 control of the ABiH?

20 A. No, I haven't. I'm saying that the army and they were on one

21 side. I know nothing about control.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. I'll now move on to another

23 subject, and then I'll come back to the subject of the detachment.

24 From the detachment itself, certain individuals were excluded

25 because they failed to respect the rules and regulations of the

Page 541

1 detachment; isn't that correct?

2 A. Well, there were such cases.

3 Q. You would agree with me if I said that in 1993, there were a

4 number of such cases?

5 A. Yes. There were such cases. One forgets them. A lot of time has

6 passed since then.

7 Q. They were excluded, and that's quite clear, isn't it, they were

8 excluded, because they failed to abide by the rules of discipline that

9 were in force in the El Mujahedin Detachment; is that correct or not?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Would you agree that many of them continued to fight, although

12 they were not under the control of the El Mujahedin Detachment? Are you

13 aware of that?

14 A. I don't know, but on the whole they stayed on in Bosnia. I don't

15 know about their fight and how they fought.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness.

17 I have a few more questions for you that concern command within

18 the detachment itself, because in the course of your testimony you

19 mentioned a subject.

20 Have I understood you correctly, you said that the detachment had

21 an emir who was above the military commander; is that correct?

22 A. Well, that was the command hierarchy. There was the command at

23 two stages, two levels. There was the detachment emir and the military

24 command. As to how that actually worked, well, I don't know exactly.

25 The Presiding Judge asked me about that yesterday, too. I can say

Page 542

1 that the military commander was involved in military issues, combat

2 action, arms, et cetera. The emir probably had other fields of

3 responsibility.

4 Q. Let me put my question this way: Would it be correct to say that

5 the emir was more influential than the military commander?

6 A. That's certain, yes.

7 Q. The detachment had an individual who decided or took decisions on

8 all matters of importance; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes. There was a body, in fact, within the detachment that took

10 important decisions.

11 Q. You were a member of another kind of unit - that's what you said -

12 before you entered the detachment, before you joined the detachment. As

13 far as you know, command and control in the ABiH didn't have any such

14 bodies or councils or any religious councils, any shuras of this kind; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Well, in the army, there was only a deputy commander for morale,

17 who was involved in religious issues to an extent, but it was a different

18 thing. In our detachment, things functioned differently.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we find out when it's convenient?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In two or three minutes, Your

23 Honours. In two minutes, Your Honours.

24 Q. I now have something else to ask you about this body or council,

25 this shura. Would I be correct to say that the shura, this body, in fact

Page 543

1 took decisions as to whether the detachment would engage in combat

2 activity of any kind; is that correct?

3 A. This shura, this body, did take decisions on matters of great

4 importance, that's for certain. That's for sure.

5 Q. Thank you. And after August 1993, the shura also decided or

6 continued to decide about matters of importance; isn't that correct?

7 A. Well, I believe so, but I didn't have the opportunity of finding

8 out anything about this at the time. I think that this is how things

9 worked until the end of the war.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank

11 you, Witness.

12 We could have a break now. This is a convenient moment.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam. We'll take a break and

14 come back at 4.00.

15 Court adjourned.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think we need to go into private session,

20 but I just wanted to say that the decision has been filed.

21 Secondly, I just want to remind the Prosecution about the witness

22 list for next week.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours.

24 We earlier had provided a schedule for the entire month of July,

25 and there are no changes to that schedule. I would, for the benefit of

Page 544

1 the Defence, as well as our own planning, I anticipate filing monthly

2 calendars, if that's acceptable; and then I would -- the default would be

3 if there are no changes, then there's no changes. I would then inform the

4 Chamber and the Defence if there were any changes.

5 But in the absence of any such notification, the schedule, as it

6 stands for the month, will remain the same, if that's acceptable to the

7 Trial Chamber.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's perfectly acceptable. Thank you very much.

9 MR. MUNDIS: And, also, I would indicate it's certainly our

10 intention to do those monthly schedules by the middle of the preceding

11 month; so that I would hope to have the schedule, for example, for the

12 month of September by the 15th of August, et cetera.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you very much,

14 Mr. Mundis.

15 I guess the witness may be brought in now. Thank you.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have significantly

20 reduced the number of my questions. I shall only ask for the witness to

21 be shown a photograph from Exhibit number 68. That is from yesterday.

22 This is a photograph with the number - just a minute - 04717273.

23 Q. Yes. Witness, please, you will recall having seen this photograph

24 yesterday?

25 A. Yes.

Page 545

1 Q. You identified Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Abu Aiman?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And Nusret Abdibegovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You wrote that down, too. You don't know at all when this

8 photograph was taken; is that right?

9 A. That is correct. I only talked about the people on the

10 photograph -- in the photograph.

11 Q. And the Prosecutor asked you who Sakib Mahmuljin, General

12 Mahmuljin was; and at a certain point, you said that he was the Commander

13 of the 3rd Corps; is that right?

14 A. Yes, that is what I said. When I was in the detachment, he was

15 the Commander of the Corps. What he was at this time, I don't know.

16 Q. That is the purpose of my question. You don't know, at the time

17 when this photograph was taken, whether Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin was the

18 Commander of the 3rd Corps?

19 A. I don't know.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

21 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Vidovic.

23 Mr. Mundis, any re-examination?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Just a few questions, Your Honour. And, in a moment,

25 I'm going to ask the witness some questions about Exhibit 90, so perhaps

Page 546

1 that can be pulled up in e-court.

2 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

3 Q. Mr. Begovic, in response earlier this afternoon to some questions

4 from the Defence concerning the shura, I would like to ask you some

5 follow-up questions concerning the Shura Council of the El Mujahedin

6 Detachment.

7 Were you, sir, at that time, while you were in that unit, a member

8 of the Shura of the El Mujahedin Detachment?

9 A. No.

10 Q. On how many occasions, if any, did you ever attend a meeting of

11 the Shura of the EMD or the El Mujahedin Detachment?

12 A. No [as interpreted].

13 Q. Are you aware, sir, of who exactly were the members --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Let's just get clarity.

15 The question was: "On how many occasions," and you said, "No."

16 De we to understand that by that "no," you to mean that you never attended

17 any of those meetings?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I never attended any of

19 these meetings.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Do you know, sir, who were the members of the El Mujahedin

23 Detachment Shura at the time you were a member of that unit?

24 A. I didn't know who were the members. It was probably the people

25 who were in the leadership of the unit that were members of it, but I

Page 547

1 don't know, with precision, who was on the Shura.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Begovic.

3 I'd now like to show you Exhibit 90, which is a document we looked

4 at a little bit earlier this afternoon, and in particular the last

5 paragraph of this document.

6 Do you see the document in front of you, sir?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. The last paragraph makes reference to the group of Mujahedin that

9 were led by Ramo Durmis from Zenica. Do you know Ramo Durmis?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who Ramo Durmis was or is?

12 A. When I joined the detachment, he was just a simple soldier, as far

13 as I know. What he did before that, I don't know. But he was said to be

14 some sort of a leader, perhaps the emir of a group, before I came, that

15 is. I don't know whether he was with the detachment throughout the war.

16 I can't say that with precision, either.

17 Q. This document, sir, that you have before you, indicates he's

18 currently "the Commander of the Bosniaks among the Mujahedin in Mehuric."

19 Can you comment on that phrase that's contained in Exhibit 90?

20 A. I don't know. The only thing that I can say is that he was

21 perhaps the leader of a group of Bosniaks. I don't know how else I could

22 comment on it.

23 Q. Do you know, Mr. Begovic, if Ramo Durmis had a nickname, or if he

24 went by any "Abu" nicknames in particular?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 548

1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Begovic.

2 The Prosecution has no further questions for the witness.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

4 Judge Lattanzi?

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said there were two

7 leaders of the detachment: There was the military commander and the emir.

8 As to the military commander, was he Bosnian or was he a foreigner?

9 A. He was a foreigner.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You added that the emir would

11 participate in taking major decisions, and also when it came to operations

12 or actions, as you stated two days ago. So these were military decisions,

13 but were there also decisions having to do with the organisation within

14 the detachment only?

15 A. Well, probably there also were. Within the detachment, the

16 organisation was a bit specific, as it were. For instance, in the

17 Vastrostalna in Zenica, we had the Medresa, the religious instruction

18 segment, and then we had the fitness training and the handling of weapons

19 training in other places. So they probably looked after that.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But they would also make

21 decisions with regard to military operations or actions?

22 A. Yes. They certainly participated in the adoption of such

23 decisions, together with the military emir.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Judge Lattanzi.

Page 549

1 Let me just start with this Exhibit 90, which was here,

2 Mr. Begovic, before we forget about it.

3 Let me say, when you joined the El Mujahedin, was Mr. Ramo Durmis

4 already a member or did he join after you?

5 A. I believe that he was already there before I joined.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now, you testified over the last three

7 days about the engagement of your detachment in battle. The question I

8 want to ask you is: While you were involved in war, were there any time

9 where your group or your side captured any prisoners of war?

10 A. As far as I know, I didn't. My group didn't have any captured

11 combatants.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were you, at any time, aware of any prisoners of

13 war that may have been captured by any of the groups on your side?

14 A. We later heard that some people had been captured in the second

15 action, but I believe that an exchange took place, so that I did not feel

16 the need to talk about it. But I, personally, and my group did not

17 capture anyone. I believe these other people were captured by the army.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean "they were captured by the army"?

19 A. I am referring to the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, someone from

20 the 2nd Brigade. That's what I meant.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say you heard that they were -- well, they

22 probably got exchanged. Do you know what happened to them between the

23 time of their capture and the time of their exchange?

24 A. No, I didn't have occasion to see them.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll leave the question of prisoners of war.

Page 550

1 Were you aware of -- let me rephrase that question. To your

2 knowledge, where did the group that you belonged to receive its

3 instructions from, if any?

4 A. What does this question refer to, to the action or to the

5 peace-time conditions when there were no combat operations?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm talking about when there were combat

7 operations.

8 A. I see. We got our instructions from the military emir.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. But the military emir, you're

10 talking about the emir of your group, isn't it so, your unit?

11 A. Yes, I was referring to Muatez.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: My question to you is: Are you aware of whether

13 at all Muatez received instruction from anybody else?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Begovic. I have no

16 further questions for you.

17 Any questions arising from the questions by the Bench, Mr. Mundis?

18 MR. MUNDIS: No, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Mr. Begovic, this brings us to the end of your testimony. The

23 Trial Chamber would like to thank you very much for coming to testify,

24 taking time off your very busy schedule, and you are now excused. You may

25 leave. Thank you very much.

Page 551

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Before we call the next witness, I just wanted to clear up one

6 issue from yesterday.

7 The Trial Chamber will recall, with respect to the video which had

8 been marked for identification as Exhibit 81, and the corresponding

9 transcript which was Exhibit 82 marked for identification, we indicated

10 that we wanted the opportunity to review the transcript of that videotape.

11 I have had the opportunity to do so, and at this point in time the

12 Prosecution has no objection to Exhibit 81, the video, and the

13 corresponding transcript, 82, being admitted into evidence.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

15 Exhibits 81 and 82 that were marked for identification yesterday

16 are now admitted into evidence and as exhibits. Thank you very much.

17 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution calls Hasib Alic, and my colleague,

19 Laurie Sartorio, will be conducting the direct examination of this

20 witness.

21 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I beg your pardon.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

23 MR. ROBSON: I rise just to make one point before we start with

24 the next witness.

25 I'd just like to draw to the Court's attention that on our return

Page 552

1 from the break at 4.00 p.m., I found at my desk a new witness statement

2 for this witness. It's nine pages long and some 43 paragraphs in length.

3 The next witness is, rather like Mr. Begovic, a former member of the

4 El Mujahed Detachment. His evidence covers the whole span of the

5 indictment from 1993 to 1995. And I note, from a brief perusal of the

6 statement, that within the statement, there are several aspects of his

7 evidence which are materially different from the former statement that we

8 have. It's therefore the case, Your Honour, that I feel a little

9 uncomfortable dealing with the cross-examination today without having a

10 proper opportunity to study the new and detailed statement.

11 Your Honour, I note that the court time is precious. It's 20 past

12 4.00 now, and I would anticipate that the examination-in-chief would

13 probably take us just some time beyond the next break. We'll be breaking,

14 I guess, from 5.30 to 6.00. So with the Court's permission, Your Honour,

15 it's my application that we adjourn a little bit earlier and deal with the

16 cross-examination first thing on Monday morning, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, is there any reason for the Defence

18 to be given a different statement so late in the day?

19 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, this statement was the result of the

20 proofing of the witness. The witness wanted to make some corrections to

21 his first statement, and he also had some substantive additions to

22 additions to add to his testimony, so I felt it was my obligation to have

23 a new statement drafted up, and the witness was read the statement back in

24 his own language and he signed the statement.

25 So I had to disclose it. But it's purely as a result of the

Page 553

1 proofing. I've spent several hours with this witness over the past two

2 days.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is there a possibility of avoiding a recurrence of

4 this nature?

5 MS. SARTORIO: Well, the policy of the OTP is that witnesses are

6 brought in just a few days before their testimony. So if there is another

7 way, Your Honour, we would be more than amenable to using that method.

8 It's the Victim Witness Unit, Your Honour, that decides the time frame, so

9 it's really beyond the power of the OTP to ask or require a witness to

10 come in several days before his testimony.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a comment to make. Well, I choke on it, so

12 I'd rather not make it.

13 Okay. Thank you very much. But do you have any objection to this

14 witness being cross-examined next week?

15 MS. SARTORIO: I don't have any objection, Your Honour. I don't

16 know what the witness's position is, what his situation is at home,

17 whether he has to return today and return on Sunday. I'm not sure. We'll

18 have to speak with the witness after his testimony today.

19 I hope to be completed, Your Honour, within an hour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but your opposite number is not ready,

21 precisely because of the statement that they've just received. So they

22 will not be in a position to cross-examine this witness.

23 MS. SARTORIO: I understand that.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You understand that?


Page 554

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

2 Well, then you can cross-examine on Monday, sir.

3 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think arrangements shall have to be made for the

5 accommodation and proper care of the witness over the weekend.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 You may call the witness.

9 MS. SARTORIO: The Prosecution calls Mr. Hasib Alic to the stand.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [The witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Alic. You may be seated.

17 Madam Sartorio.

18 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. Thank you.

19 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

20 Q. Mr. Alic, what country are you from?

21 A. From Bosnia.

22 Q. And in 1990 and 1991, were you also in Bosnia?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What were you doing during those two years, in terms of

25 occupation?

Page 555

1 A. Nothing.

2 Q. Were you a soldier in the JNA?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That was in 1990/1991?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, in 1992, what were you doing?

7 A. In 1992, well, nothing. Farm work.

8 Q. Excuse me. Sorry.

9 I didn't hear the witness's answer.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I heard the interpretation say, "Nothing. Farm

11 work."

12 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Alic, when do you believe the war started in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Well, I know that there were village guards on the 4th of April,

16 1992; and then perhaps a month or two later, things became a little more

17 intense.

18 Q. And during that time, were you a member of the armed forces in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what unit were you a member of?

22 A. Well, when I look back, I was a member of the ABiH from the

23 beginning, from the 4th of April, as it is stated in my military booklet,

24 up until the 14th of May, 1993.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. 4th of April, 1992?

Page 556

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MS. SARTORIO: I think there's some confusion.

3 Q. You, according to your military booklet, you became a member of

4 the Army for Bosnia-Herzegovina in April of 1993; correct?

5 A. According to my military booklet, it was on the 4th of April,

6 1992.

7 Q. Okay. Excuse me. Sorry. Yes. And what was your role in the

8 ABiH?

9 A. Not much of a role.

10 Q. Well, were you a part of a unit, a brigade?

11 A. Yes. At the time at the beginning, there was no such thing, but

12 later there was the 306th Brigade.

13 Q. And you were a member of the 306th Brigade?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And were you carrying out some operations during your time in 1992

16 and early 1993 with the 306th Mountain Brigade?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Well, what were you doing in the armed forces? What kind of work

19 were you doing? Reconnaissance?

20 A. On the whole, I stood guard.

21 Q. Now, at some point in 1993, did you move into another unit?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And -- excuse me. And what was the name of that unit?

24 A. The El Mujahed Detachment.

25 Q. And why did you move into that unit?

Page 557

1 A. Well, I thought it would be better for me.

2 Q. Better in what way?

3 A. Well, how should I describe it? Well, I just thought it would be

4 better for me, so that's why I moved. I thought they were better

5 organised, and that's it.

6 Q. How many members of the El Mujahedin Detachment were there at the

7 time you moved into that unit?

8 A. Well, I don't know the exact number; perhaps, 15 or 20 at the

9 beginning.

10 Q. And can you tell the Court what the -- what the makeup was of that

11 unit? Was it made up of persons not of Bosnian citizenship, or a mixture

12 of some foreign fighters and some Bosnian citizens?

13 A. There were foreign Bosnian fighters [as interpreted].

14 Q. And what do you mean by "foreign Bosnian fighters"?

15 A. Well, I had Arabs in mind.

16 Q. Okay. So there were Bosnian and foreign fighters; is that what

17 you're trying to say?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the sake of

21 the transcript, the witness said "foreign and Bosnian fighters" and the

22 transcript states "foreign Bosnian fighters." There's no actual link

23 between the two. The witness made a clear distinction.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic, for that

25 assistance.

Page 558

1 Madam Sartorio, I guess that clears your question.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, I don't need to --



5 Q. Do you recall what the ratio was at the time between the Bosnian

6 and the foreign soldiers, in terms of the numbers?

7 A. At the beginning?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Well, there weren't many Arabs.

10 Q. Now, what was required of you to move into that unit?

11 A. Nothing.

12 Q. Did you have to receive any official permission from the 306th

13 Mountain Brigade to transfer into that unit?

14 A. No, I didn't need anything.

15 Q. And you were never considered to have deserted, for instance, the

16 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina when you moved into that unit?

17 A. Well, I didn't really pay much attention to that.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm glad that the

20 witness said -- has answered. I don't want to influence the witness. But

21 if the Prosecution could avoid leading the witness, it would be good.

22 This was a leading question.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: And are you saying it's water under the bridge,

24 there's nothing you can do about it, but you still record your objection?

25 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question, if you'd

Page 559

1 like.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has

3 answered the question. However, I'd appreciate it if the Prosecution

4 could avoid asking questions that imply that the witness has made a claim

5 that he hasn't actually made. But the witness has already said he knew

6 nothing about that, so I withdrew my objection.

7 But I would appreciate it if the Prosecution could avoid putting

8 leading questions to the witness.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

10 Madam Sartorio, you hear the concern of the Defence.

11 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please.


14 Q. Mr. Alic, were you ever disciplined for any reason for leaving the

15 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When you joined the unit in May of 1993, who was in charge of the

18 El Mujahedin Detachment?

19 A. As far as I can remember, Haris was.

20 Q. And where was the command post?

21 A. In Poljanice.

22 Q. And was the command post located in one building?

23 A. Well, there were three houses there.

24 Q. And were these three houses owned by the El Mujahed Detachment?

25 A. No.

Page 560

1 Q. Do you know who -- did you hear about where these houses had come

2 from, who had occupied these houses previously?

3 A. As far as I know, Serbs.

4 Q. And the Serbs were not living in those houses at the time the El

5 Mujahed Detachment moved into them, were they?

6 A. That's correct. There was no one there.

7 Q. Do you know if anyone gave permission to the El Mujahed Detachment

8 to occupy those houses?

9 A. As far as I know -- well, I don't know. I don't know.

10 Q. Now, in terms of the -- I guess for the term "foreign fighters,"

11 to be distinguished from the Bosnian-Herzegovinian citizens who were

12 members of the El Mujahed Detachment, did the foreign fighters speak the

13 Bosnian language?

14 A. At the time, they didn't, those who were there when I arrived.

15 Q. Were you able to understand them when they were speaking?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you receive any classes or lessons from the El Mujahed

18 Detachment?

19 A. Well, we had some instructions.

20 Q. And what were these instructions on?

21 A. Well, religious instruction.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just get some clarity?


24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said, sir, you didn't understand them when they

25 spoke. How did you understand their religious instruction?

Page 561

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had a translator.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


4 Q. What was the name of the translator?

5 A. Abu Malik, a Bosnian.

6 Q. Now, did the -- over time, did the unit -- excuse me, did the El

7 Mujahed Detachment grow?

8 A. Yes, it did.

9 Q. And in terms of the numbers just prior to, say, any operation that

10 you conducted by the El Mujahed Detachment, approximately, what were the

11 numbers of the members?

12 A. I wouldn't know the precise number, but there were not many of us.

13 Q. Were there 50?

14 A. There weren't that many.

15 Q. Were there more than ten?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were there more than 20?

18 A. Well, let's say around 20, 30.

19 Q. Sorry. Excuse me. Twenty or 30, that's your answer?

20 A. More or less.

21 MS. SARTORIO: I would like to show the witness --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. I just want to understand this number: "20

23 or 30." Is this the number of the entire El Mujahed Detachment, inclusive

24 of both foreigners and locals, or is it the foreign members only?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Both.

Page 562

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like to show the witness what has been marked

3 and entered into evidence Exhibit number 78. If we can put it up on the

4 screen, it's PT2949. It was PT2949, and e-court page number is 161 to

5 162. Thank you.

6 Q. Is it up on your screen?

7 A. I can see it.

8 Q. Okay.

9 MS. SARTORIO: Is that page 161 to 162, e-court pages? It's

10 supposed to be ERN 0365-5060.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, my case manager just gave me a number

13 that may be of some assistance, P02949 C.

14 I don't see it, Your Honour. I don't know what's going on with

15 e-court. That's not the right number.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that it, Madam Sartorio?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.

19 MS. SARTORIO: I'm looking, Your Honour. Yes, that's it. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. SARTORIO: We'll be using this double page and then the next

23 page. Thank you.

24 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look at these two pages, and if you can, tell

25 me what this is.

Page 563

1 A. It bears my first and last name, date of birth, my place of

2 residence in Travnik Municipality. Also, it indicates where I served the

3 army, in Niksic, and when I was seconded to Ulcinj.

4 Q. And in paragraph 19, the places that you served, are those

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, they are.

7 Q. Okay. And are the dates of services next to those places, are

8 those correct dates?

9 A. Yes. September, I think so, I think so.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Could we have the next page, please.

11 Q. Number 28, would you look at the writing, what's next to number

12 28. On the left-hand side of the left page, second from the top or third

13 from the top, it says "Number 28." Do you see that?

14 A. Yes. Yes, I do see. Military exercises, the military post, and

15 the place.

16 Q. And when does it say that you served in the military? What are

17 your starting dates and what are your completion dates?

18 A. Well, the initial date is the 4th of April, 1992 until the 14th of

19 May, 1993. That was when I was in the army.

20 Q. Well, if you look at the second entry and you go all the way over

21 to the right, doesn't it --

22 A. And the second note, that is when I went to the El Mujahed

23 Detachment from the 15th of May, 1993 to the 27th of December, 1995.

24 Q. So these dates listed on this document, did they represent the

25 dates that you served in these different units?

Page 564

1 A. Yes, they do.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I have no further questions about this

3 exhibit.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

5 MS. SARTORIO: We would like to tender it -- well, it's tendered

6 as an exhibit, yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think, yes, it is tendered. Thank you very much,

8 madam. I beg your pardon. I'm advised that it was marked for

9 identification.

10 MS. SARTORIO: We would like to tender this document in evidence,

11 then, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then, the document is admitted into evidence. May

13 it please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will continue to retain its

15 exhibit number as 78.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


18 Q. Mr. Alic, I'd like to ask you if you have an opinion as to why the

19 El Mujahed Detachment existed.

20 A. I really have no idea.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

22 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I'm sorry. The Defence has been on its

23 feet a lot today, but I don't think it's particularly useful to ask the

24 witness his opinion. It's obviously the purpose of the witness is to

25 advance his observations and facts he can tell us about. Opinions are

Page 565

1 rather for the Bench.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson. And I guess the

3 Defence is here to be on its feet when it's necessary. If you have to be

4 on your feet as many times, so be it. That's what you're paid for. Thank

5 you very much.

6 Yes, Madam Sartorio.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, this gentleman was a member of the El

8 Mujahed Detachment for two years, and I wanted to ask him some questions

9 about the philosophy of the El Mujahed Detachment.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the ground of the objection is you're

11 asking opinion evidence from a witness who's not an expert.

12 MS. SARTORIO: Well, I'm just asking him about his personal

13 opinion, not as an expert, what his personal opinion was from his

14 association with other members of the El Mujahed Detachment. But I can

15 rephrase the questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think you could rephrase it without using the

17 word "opinion," and it would be a perfectly legitimate question.

18 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


21 Q. Sir, from your participation in the El Mujahed Detachment and your

22 discussions with other members in the detachment, do you know why they

23 were there in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. Well, probably to help.

25 Q. And to help whom?

Page 566

1 A. The Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 MS. SARTORIO: And one second, Your Honour. May I have one

3 second.

4 Q. In your experience and being in the unit, were they spreading any

5 type of Jihad holy war?

6 A. As far as I know, they were not.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you ask the next question, I just want

8 to get clarity to the previous answer.

9 When you say they were helping the Muslims in Bosnia, help them in

10 what, in doing what?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To defend ourselves from the

12 aggressor.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MS. SARTORIO: And I have a follow-up to that.

15 Q. And who were the aggressors?

16 MS. SARTORIO: Oh, sorry.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

18 MR. ROBSON: Sorry to interject. The question that I have, Your

19 Honour, perhaps if we could just clarify, when the question was put to the

20 witness, "Were they spreading any type of Jihad," I don't think it was

21 established who "they" were specifically referring to. Perhaps if we

22 can --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fair enough. But I guess Madam Sartorio now wants

24 to make a follow-up to the question by the Bench. I guess you'll come

25 back to the spread of --

Page 567

1 MS. SARTORIO: I will, Your Honour. I can ask that question now,

2 and then do the follow-up as well.



5 Q. When I said "they," Mr. Alic, I meant the members and the

6 commanders, all the members of the El Mujahed Detachment. Was it a

7 purpose to start a Jihad or a holy war with your detachment?

8 A. No, that was not the purpose.

9 Q. And when you mentioned a few minutes ago to the Judge about -- I

10 believe you said you were helping the Muslims fight the aggressors. Is

11 that what you said?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And who -- I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness because

15 of the overlap.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you answer again, please, sir. The

17 interpreters didn't hear you.

18 A. Yes, I did say. So I said that they had come to help us defend

19 ourselves.


21 Q. And defend yourself against whom or what?

22 A. Against the aggressor; the Serbs, I say [as interpreted].

23 Q. Were there any other aggressors, other than the Serbs?

24 A. I couldn't say. Well, there were Croats later.

25 Q. Now, during your time that you served in the El Mujahed

Page 568

1 Detachment, did your detachment fight alongside with other units of the

2 ABiH?

3 A. In the beginning, we didn't. We fought on our own. The Army of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina did.

5 Q. I didn't see -- I don't see a completion to this answer. "We

6 fought on our own. The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina did." Did what?

7 A. What do you mean, "on our own"? We were not alone. We were with

8 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Q. To your recollection, was there ever a time when the El Mujahed

10 Detachment operated on its own?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Well, in the times that you were involved in combat with the El

13 Mujahed Detachment, do you recall that there were other military units,

14 formations, operating with you?

15 A. Well, yes.

16 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, there've been a couple of questions

17 along this line. Obviously, this is an important area, and I would ask my

18 learned friend to proceed carefully in putting questions of this nature

19 about whether the El Mujahed Detachment fought with anyone else.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Mr. Robson, I'm not quite sure -- I know

22 it's a delicate area, but how else could the question be put, if the

23 desired answer -- what needs to be established is whether or not this El

24 Mujahedin fought alongside with some other unit or not.

25 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the line of question now, I would have

Page 569

1 expected, is to first establish when, if indeed at all, the El Mujahed

2 conducted combat operations, and then the questions could have flowed from

3 there, rather than proceeding immediately to a question as to, "Do you

4 recall whether there were other formations operating with you?"

5 So in my submission, Your Honour, we're just getting a couple of

6 steps ahead of ourselves.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, you hear that?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

9 MS. SARTORIO: I heard it, Your Honour; however, I think it is a

10 fair question. Just because we're getting into areas that may be going to

11 the heart of some matters doesn't mean that questions -- if he can answer

12 the questions, then I should be able to ask him whether his unit always

13 participated with other units or not. That's not a leading question.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I didn't think so, because, I think,

15 Mr. Robson, the witness has already indicated that the El Mujahed had come

16 to help "them" fight the enemy. Now, if somebody's coming to help you

17 fight the enemy, isn't it legitimate to find out whether you indeed fight

18 together?

19 MR. ROBSON: Absolutely, Your Honour, of course, it's legitimate.

20 But the objection I had was putting it to the witness, every time they

21 were fighting together. Essentially, that's where I saw the questions

22 leading, and I thought just to put my own objection on record.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. It is noted. I think if you can be any more

24 careful than you have been so far, please try to be.

25 MS. SARTORIO: I will, Your Honour, it's just I do have a basis

Page 570

1 for asking that question. It's didn't come out of the blue. That's why I

2 would like to pursue it a little bit further with the witness, if I may.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, madam.


5 Q. Mr. Alic, you were involved in a number of combat operations with

6 the El Mujahed Detachment; is that -- sorry. That's a leading question.

7 Were you involved in a number of combat operations with the El

8 Mujahed Detachment?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. And I'm going to be asking you about some of those operations

11 which were discussed in the last few days in terms of proofing in the

12 presence of team members; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in the operations that you'll be discussing and telling the

15 Court about today, in all of those operations, did the El Mujahed

16 Detachment operate with other military units?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Well, if I showed you a prior statement that you made, would that?

19 MS. SARTORIO: Would that help refresh the recollection of the

20 witness, Your Honour?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all the same.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson's point.

23 MR. ROBSON: I'm sorry about this, Your Honour. But you did offer

24 the opportunity for us to stand up whenever we thought there was --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, indeed. That's why --

Page 571

1 MR. ROBSON: -- a point to be made.

2 Your Honour, obviously, the Prosecution is conducting its

3 examination-in-chief. It's not a time for cross-examining its own

4 witnesses. I would suggest that putting the witness's own statement to

5 him at this stage will inevitably be leading him as towards an answer.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I'm not trying to impeach the witness.

7 He said he didn't know, and I'm trying to refresh his recollection with a

8 statement that he gave in 2005.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, you know, you're referring the

10 witness to discussions that you had with the team outside court. Don't

11 you think that before you give him that statement, you should take him

12 through, one by one, each of those comments, and then deal with each one

13 of them so that his memory can be jogged? I think it would be helpful

14 that way, then you would stay away from supposedly leading or impeaching

15 or cross-examining.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. That is an excellent suggestion, Your Honour,

17 and I'll proceed.

18 Q. Mr. Alic, after your -- when was your first combat with the El

19 Mujahed Detachment?

20 A. I don't know the date when we had this first time.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Could I ask that Map number 9 from the Court binder

22 be put up for the witness, please.

23 While that's happening, I can ask another question.

24 Q. You say you don't recall when it was. Was it -- can you give us

25 any type of estimation in terms of a month, or would --

Page 572

1 A. Well, yes. Approximately, it was perhaps in July or in August.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of which year, sir?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1993, I think.


5 Q. And can you describe for the Judges what was the purpose of the

6 operation and what you did, and if you could also draw on the map where

7 you started, where you were located at the beginning of the operation.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Is the witness --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess we're going to introduce him to the map

10 first, and let him identify this map and understand it and see.

11 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we just zoom in on this map a

13 bit?

14 MS. SARTORIO: Could you zoom in on the map, itself, the center of

15 it perhaps. Okay.

16 Q. Can you see it now, Mr. Alic? Where was --

17 A. Well, slightly better, yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you recognise that map? Is this a map that is

20 known to you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do recognise it.


23 Q. Now, where was the command headquarters for the El Mujahed

24 Detachment, if you see the place on this map?

25 A. I see the place. [Marks]

Page 573

1 Q. And what's the name of that place?

2 A. Poljanice. This hamlet has some other name, but I don't know. I

3 call it Poljanice.

4 Q. For the sake of the record, could the witness put the number "1"

5 next to the village of Poljanice?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Now, walk us through that first combat, if you would.

8 A. Well, from Poljanice we set off to Rasimulje [as interpreted], up

9 here --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Simulje.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and then we continued. [Marks]

12 We went in this direction. There are some fir trees here, and there's the

13 village of Radonjici. [Indicating] That's more or less it.


15 Q. We need to mark a couple of numbers along the way. Could you put

16 a number "2" next to the place Simulje.

17 A. Simulje, number 2. [Marks]

18 Q. Yes. And "3" around where you mentioned fir trees.

19 A. Yes. Those trees here, number 3; and the village of Radonjici,

20 that's number 4. [Marks]

21 Q. Is there a name for the area where the fir trees were; do you

22 know?

23 A. It's near the place called Radonjici. In fact, there are these

24 pine trees here. That's what it says here. It's a place called Borovi.

25 Q. Do you know how many kilometres it is between Poljanice and

Page 574

1 Radonjici, approximately?

2 A. I don't know how many kilometres it is. Well, perhaps a few

3 kilometres more, perhaps a few less. I don't know exactly.

4 Q. Can you tell the Court how long this operation took?

5 A. When we set off or when we engaged in action?

6 Q. Well, why don't you, again, walk us through it. Did you engage in

7 action in Simulje?

8 A. Well, yes. When we arrived there in front of the lines, when

9 shooting broke out, it didn't last for long, perhaps ten or 15 minutes.

10 Q. And then did anything happen at the area that's been marked

11 Borovi?

12 A. No, no, nothing.

13 Q. And -- okay. Sorry.

14 A. The lines were here behind Simulje, that area. Perhaps one

15 kilometre away, you wouldn't find anyone there. [Indicating]

16 Q. How many members of the El Mujahed Detachment were you with during

17 this operation?

18 A. Well, I said, at the beginning, there were 20 or 30 of us, but we

19 weren't alone there. The ABiH was there, too, and they were both to the

20 left and to the right of us.

21 Q. And do you recall which units of the ABiH were with you?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Now, during -- I believe you said this was sometime, you said, in

24 the summer. Was this in the summer of 1993, or July or August, you said?

25 A. Well, something like that.

Page 575

1 Q. Well --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness said "August 1993."

3 MS. SARTORIO: I thought he said "July or August."

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: "Plus/minus August."

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In those two months.


7 Q. But from the time that you joined the detachment in May of 1993 to

8 this combat, were there any other combats in between?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. To your knowledge, during the entire summer, so June, July, and

11 August of '93, were there any other combat operations in that area?

12 A. I wouldn't know. Perhaps there were other operations, perhaps

13 not. I can't remember. In 1993, well, I don't know whether there were

14 any other operations in 1993.

15 Q. Did you and your detachment participate in any other operations in

16 the summer of 1993 in this area?

17 A. So this was the first one, and there were other such operations.

18 But was that in 1993 or 1994, I don't know exactly.

19 Q. And during this operation, from whom were you taking orders?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Well, who was your first commander, if you recall?

22 A. Abu Haris.

23 Q. And do you recall any other persons who were in command of the El

24 Mujahed Detachment at that time?

25 A. As far as I know, there was Abu Haris at the time, there was

Page 576

1 Vahidin, and there were several other Arabs. But as far as I know, these

2 persons were the most important ones.

3 Q. At the end of the operation, where did you go?

4 A. Well, we went to Poljanice.

5 Q. And when you were at Poljanice, do you know who was in command of

6 the detachment there?

7 A. Well, it was Abu Haris at the time.

8 Q. Did Abu Haris have a title, to your knowledge?

9 A. I don't know. I know he was our emir. That's what we called him,

10 "Emir."

11 Q. Now, after this operation, did the command of the El Mujahed

12 Detachment move?

13 A. Well, yes, it did move. I don't know when. It moved to Zenica.

14 MS. SARTORIO: And just one more question, Your Honour, because I

15 understand we're getting close to the break.

16 I would like to tender the map -- capture the markings on the map

17 and then tender it into evidence, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The captured markings on the monitor is admitted

19 into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number 91.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MS. SARTORIO: Just one more question?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, what time did we start? We started

24 at 4:00.

25 MS. SARTORIO: 4.00. My case manager handed me a note, saying

Page 577

1 we're ready for a court break, but one more question?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, yes.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Alic, before -- when the El Mujahed Detachment was at

5 Poljanice and then when it moved, as you just said, to Zenica, did the

6 command change? Did the command of the detachment change at all?

7 A. I don't know. It remained -- or rather, the same emir was there.

8 Nothing particular happened.

9 Q. Did your role or duties change at all?

10 A. No.

11 Q. In your experience, did the -- did the operation of the

12 detachment, the daily operations, did that change at all?

13 A. Well, not really.

14 MS. SARTORIO: At this point, Your Honour, I was going to show

15 Mr. Alic some photographs, which might take -- a series of photographs.

16 If you want me to start now, I will.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would this then be a convenient point to take the

18 break?

19 MS. SARTORIO: I think it would, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take a break and come

21 back at quarter to 6.00.

22 Court adjourned.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sartorio.

Page 578

1 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honour.

2 Your Honour, at the court break, I was speaking with the court

3 usher, because the next thing I would like to do is show this witness a

4 series of photographs of persons, and I understand that a previous witness

5 has already identified -- put the names to some of these photographs.

6 But the court usher thought it would be the best thing at this

7 point to tender the whole booklet of photographs and get that into

8 evidence as one number, and then we'll have the witness go through the

9 photographs and give the names of all of them and tender it as one

10 exhibit.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. As you please, madam.

12 MS. SARTORIO: The exhibit --

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

15 MS. SARTORIO: For the record, the PT number is P061571, and the

16 ERN, would you like?

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want them to admit it right away, or do you

19 want to take him through them first before you tender them?

20 Maybe you want to take him through them.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. I think that would be the best thing, Your

22 Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Alic, I would like to take you through the photographs,

24 starting with the photograph on page 1 of this booklet of documents, and

25 ask if you can identify this person.

Page 579

1 A. I can recognise this person.

2 Q. And what is his name?

3 A. His name was Sheikh Enver.

4 Q. And I don't want to ask you this question for each one of these

5 photographs, but was this person a member of the El Mujahed Detachment?

6 A. He arrived at the very end. He wasn't with us from the beginning.

7 He arrived at the end.

8 Q. Okay. And the second photograph, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. The question had been "but was he a member

10 of the El Mujahed." Was he a member even when whatever time he arrived?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was with us when we arrived

12 there, for three or four months, approximately [as interpreted].

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And he was a member of the El Mujahedin?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was with us. As to whether

15 he had been entered on a list, as to whether this was on paper, I don't

16 know. I don't think so.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The interpreter can't hear

19 the speaker.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- it says: "Sheikh Saban was with

21 us when we arrived, for three or four months." I can't see it. I lost

22 that part now. However, the witness said: "At the end of the war, for

23 three or four months." So could we clarify this, please.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am. Can we clarify that?

25 Earlier on the transcript, I have, when he first mentioned the

Page 580

1 name "Sheikh Enver," and you're also talking about Sheikh Saban. If you

2 look at line 6 of page 73, what we have there is "Sheikh Enver." And at

3 line 25 of the same page, you're referring to Sheikh Saban.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. That's

5 the same person. The witness said "Sheikh Enver," I said "Sheikh Saban,"

6 but it's the same person.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know him as "Sheikh Enver."

8 That's what we called him, but I don't know his real name.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise for

10 this mistake, but the purpose of my objection was to the translation. I

11 objected to the translation, because the witness said the person appeared

12 at the end of the war. The transcript said something different, so I

13 would like that to be clarified.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic. With respect

15 to the names, understand, we don't know these people. So for us, if you

16 say "Sheikh Enver" and somewhere else, "Sheikh Saban," these are two

17 different people? Okay. That's solved.

18 Madam Sartorio, can you clarify that point about that Madam

19 Vidovic says is not clear about exactly when he came at the end of the war

20 and what happened at the time?

21 MS. SARTORIO: I will ask him questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


24 Q. Mr. Alic, do you recall where you were -- excuse me, where the El

25 Mujahed Detachment was located when this person joined or when you saw

Page 581

1 him?

2 A. Well, we were at Vozuca at the time --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you answer, Mr. Robson is on his feet.

4 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour. Obviously, the Prosecution was

5 instructed just to clarify that point, and I think we just strayed on to a

6 different issue. So, perhaps, if before we deal with that fresh issue, if

7 we could just clarify the business about when Sheikh Enver arrived.

8 MS. SARTORIO: I'm trying, Your Honour. I'm trying to ask the

9 witness as a matter of location to set some background, so that maybe he

10 will have -- be able to place a date with a place.

11 I'm not moving on to a separate matter. I'm trying to establish a

12 time frame when this Sheikh Enver may have arrived.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Sartorio. You may proceed.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

15 Q. When is the first time that you saw Sheikh Enver?

16 A. When we were at Vozuca.

17 Q. When you say "we were at Vozuca," were at you the headquarters, or

18 in the field, or where?

19 A. We were in the field, 13th kilometre.

20 Q. When you say "13th kilometre," were you in the middle of

21 operations or what was at 13th kilometre?

22 A. Well, that's what the inhabitants said. They called this on the

23 basis of the distance, in kilometres. I don't know the real name. There

24 was some kind of accommodation there.

25 Q. There was accommodation for the El Mujahedin Detachment?

Page 582

1 A. Well, we couldn't stay in private houses, so we had to have a few

2 locations.

3 Q. Okay. Well, since we are going to be talking about this location

4 in more detail later, let's establish it now. When you say "13th

5 kilometre," what do you mean? Thirteenth kilometre from where?

6 A. Well, from the town of Zavidovici; so the first, the second, the

7 third kilometre --

8 Q. Okay. So this is --

9 A. -- there's the fifth kilometre.

10 Q. Up to the 13th; correct?

11 A. [No interpretation]

12 Q. So this is an area that is referred to as "13th kilometre"?

13 A. It's called "Kamenica," that area, but it's 13 kilometres from the

14 town.

15 Q. And what was at this area?

16 A. Nothing. We were just billeted there, and that's it.

17 Q. When you say "we were just billeted there," who is "we" and what

18 were you doing there?

19 A. Well, we, from the El Mujahed Detachment, we slept there, we

20 rested there, and so on.

21 Q. And did you sleep in buildings?

22 A. Well, there were two or three houses and a few tents.

23 Q. So is that where you would go after, for instance, an operation?

24 A. Occasionally. Sometimes we would, and sometimes we wouldn't.

25 Q. Was this considered a command post for the El Mujahed Detachment?

Page 583

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. Well, did you see Mr. Abu Haris at this camp?

3 A. I don't know. He was killed. I don't know whether that was

4 before that.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Sorry.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Alic, sorry. Certainly after his death, you

8 wouldn't have seen him there. While he was still alive, do you remember

9 seeing him at this place?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He may have been there, but I

11 couldn't tell you exactly whether that was indeed the case. I don't know

12 when he got killed. I don't know whether he came to the camp. If he was

13 alive, he was there. If he got killed earlier, then he couldn't have been

14 there.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.


17 Q. So if you say he was alive, he would have been there. So does

18 that mean that that's where -- did you meet other members of the El

19 Mujahed Detachment at this location?

20 A. What do you mean "other"?

21 Q. Well, your fellow combatants, your fellow soldiers, members of the

22 detachment. Did you meet others? Did you stay there for any period of

23 time?

24 A. Yes. We did stay there for a certain period of time.

25 Q. And this is -- I believe you said this is the first place that you

Page 584

1 saw Sheikh Enver. Is that correct?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And can you recall the time of year that this was?

4 A. Well, perhaps it was 1995.

5 Q. Can you recall any time period at all in 1995?

6 A. No, I don't remember that.

7 Q. Okay. Do you recall, did you ever participate in any combat

8 action with Mr. Enver?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. I'd like you to look at the third photograph, the next page, the

11 third, I suppose, page. There are three photographs on this page. Can

12 you identify who this person is?

13 A. That's Sheikh Enver.

14 Q. And page 4. Now we're at page 4.

15 A. It's the same person.

16 MS. SARTORIO: One moment, please.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]


19 Q. Mr. Alic, I'd like you to look back at page 3, and then look again

20 at page 4. Is it your -- is it your position that those are the same

21 persons -- the same person, I should say.

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Which is page 4 now?

24 MS. SARTORIO: Page 4 is ERN 0471-7266, if you have that, Your

25 Honour.

Page 585

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Is that the Sheikh, sir? Look at this

2 person here?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. That is not the same

4 person.

5 MS. SARTORIO: All right. I don't want to have the record be

6 mixed up. Page 4 is ERN 7276, and we're on that page now? Okay.

7 Q. Could you identify this person, please?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the ERN number be shown, please, on the

9 screen? Thank you very much.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

11 A. I know this person, but I don't know his name.

12 Q. And from where do you know this person?

13 A. Well, he would be there in Mehurici.

14 Q. And when was this?

15 A. 1993.

16 Q. And do you have any -- can you narrow it any further in 1993?

17 A. When I moved -- when I moved over to the detachment, I

18 occasionally saw him there in Mehurici, but he was not with us.

19 MS. SARTORIO: May we have the next photograph, please? It's

20 7267.

21 Q. Can you identify this person, sir?

22 A. I think that that is the same person.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MS. SARTORIO: The next page, please, 7268. Am I going too fast

25 for the Court, e-court? Okay.

Page 586

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay.


3 Q. Are you able to identify this person, Mr. Alic?

4 A. Yes, I am. This is Vahidin.

5 Q. And the next photograph, please, is 7269.

6 A. I think that is the same person also.

7 Q. And would you just state the name for the record?

8 A. Vahidin.

9 Q. Thank you. And the next page, the photograph 7270. Can you

10 identify this person?

11 A. I don't know this person.

12 Q. The next page, please, 0471-7271. There are two photographs on

13 this page. Can you identify the person or persons in the photograph?

14 A. I cannot. I don't know who these people are.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know who the person in the forefront is?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know this person.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Yes, Madam Sartorio.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

20 Q. Just one question. You don't know this person's name, or have you

21 ever seen this person?

22 A. I don't know this person. I don't remember having seen that

23 person ever.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. The next page, please, 7272. It contains two

25 photographs. Can you identify anyone -- let's take the top photograph.

Page 587

1 Can you identify anyone in the top photograph?

2 A. I can. It is Safet Durgucic [as interpreted].

3 THE INTERPRETER: If the interpreter caught the last name

4 properly.


6 Q. And what is he wearing?

7 A. A green jersey.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter said, "If the interpreter caught

9 the last name properly." Would you like to get the witness to repeat the

10 of the person, please, and point at the person. I don't see a green

11 jersey there. I see a blue one.


13 Q. Are you able to point on the ELMO to the person in the picture

14 that you are speaking about?

15 A. This is Durgucic, Safet. [Indicating]

16 MS. SARTORIO: I didn't see anything on my screen, a pointing.

17 Okay. Sorry.

18 A. So this here is Safet Durgucic, and this is the Zenica mufti.


20 Q. And you don't know the name of the Zenica mufti, do you?

21 A. No, I don't know his name.

22 MS. SARTORIO: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I didn't clarify.

23 Q. The name of the person who you identified in the coloured -- that

24 you just identified a second ago, could you say his name very slowly?

25 A. Safet Durguti [phoen], as far as I know.

Page 588

1 MS. SARTORIO: May we take the next --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we take the next photo, what is a

3 mufti, a Zenica mufti?

4 MS. SARTORIO: I will ask the witness.

5 Q. Can you tell us what a mufti is and what the Zenica mufti is?

6 A. He lives in Zenica. That is something superior to a hodja.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is a hodja?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hodja is someone who has completed

9 the Medresa, and those who know more have the rank of mufti or muteris.

10 So these are people with superior knowledge.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you very much.

12 You may proceed, Madam Sartorio. I'm sorry I took over from you,

13 but I need to understand these terms.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Of course, yes, Your Honour. I was going to ask

15 him if a mufti is an Islamic religion leader, if that's how he might

16 characterise him.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, but the problem with that is that's putting

19 words in his mouth.

20 MS. SARTORIO: I'll withdraw the question.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The witness said, "No."

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, interpreter.

24 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. May we see -- we're on the photograph at ERN

25 0471-7273.

Page 589

1 Q. And I'm going to ask you: Can you identify anyone -- let's take

2 the top photo. Can you identify anyone in the top photograph?

3 A. I can.

4 Q. And which -- okay.

5 A. This here is Abu Aiman, this person; and this other person is

6 again the mufti of Zenica. [Indicating].

7 Q. The person in the white robe or the person in - I'm not sure if

8 it's white - but did you just point to that person on the left of the

9 screen?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And in the photograph down below, do you recognise or are you able

12 to identify any persons?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Can you go back to the

16 photograph?

17 The person on the right of the screen, are you able to identify

18 him, sir?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one here?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't see. Yes, that one. This one.

21 [Indicating]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person is Abu Aiman; this is

23 the mufti; and this one, I don't know. [Indicating]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


Page 590

1 Q. In the picture that is at the bottom of this page, are you able to

2 identify any persons in that picture?

3 A. No, I'm not.

4 MS. SARTORIO: May we take the next page, please? It's 0471-7274.

5 Q. Mr. Alic, are you able to identify any person or persons in this

6 photograph?

7 A. I do -- I am. This person here is Abu Haris; and this other one

8 is Abu Malik, our interpreter. [Indicating]

9 Q. And for the record, is there a person -- is that a microphone, do

10 you see, in his hand? I don't think there would be any dispute that

11 there's a microphone in his hand, if I asked that question. Is that who

12 you've identified as Abu Haris?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Just for the record. Okay.

15 May we have the next page. There are two photographs on this

16 page.

17 Q. Are you able to identify any person or persons in these

18 photographs?

19 A. I am. This here is Abu Haris; and I believe this one is Vahidin,

20 as far as I can see. [Indicating].

21 Q. Now, again, we have to be specific, because the transcript can't

22 indicate when you say "this one." So could you describe the person on the

23 left -- on your left, in terms of making the record?

24 A. This here is Abu Haris. So this is Abu Haris, this person here.

25 [Indicating]

Page 591

1 Q. And who is on the right?

2 A. And this other person is, I believe, Vahidin, as far as I can make

3 out.

4 MS. SARTORIO: May we have the next page, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, for purposes of the record,

6 wouldn't it have been helpful to have the witness write their names?

7 MS. SARTORIO: We discussed that, Your Honour, but I think for the

8 sake of time, I even asked him in terms of spelling. So I'm not sure --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I did consider it.

11 May we have the next page, which consists of four photographs, and

12 ask you in the top photograph, are you able to identify this person?

13 A. Yes. This is Abu Haris holding a microphone, then this is also

14 Abu Haris. This is Abdul Malik. So this is, again, Abu Haris, Abdul

15 Malik. It is Abu Haris and Abdul Malik. [Indicating]

16 Q. And you mentioned Abu Haris is the one holding the microphone, is

17 that correct, in all four pictures?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Is that sufficient identification for the record,

20 Your Honour?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's been identified. Whether we will be able to

22 see this identification when we arrive at the judgement is another matter.

23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. Sorry.

24 Next page, please.

25 Q. Are you able to identify this person?

Page 592

1 A. Yes, I am.

2 Q. And who is it?

3 A. This is Abu Hamza.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may suggest, maybe if you mention the ERN

5 number or the number, and we know -- at least we can relate the pictures

6 that way later. The way it has gone, page 1, page 4, I'm not quite sure

7 whether we are going to be able to do so.


9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam Sartorio. Thank you. I'm

11 sorry for that little intervention.

12 MS. SARTORIO: No problem, Your Honour. We only have, I think,

13 eight photographs left.

14 The next page is 7277, the last four digits of the ERN number.

15 Sorry. We just did that one. I apologise.

16 Well, maybe we should go back, since we didn't put that number on.

17 Q. 7277, again, who is this person, please?

18 A. Abu Hamza.

19 Q. The next page, with 7278, who is this person?

20 A. This is Abu Aiman.

21 Q. And the next page, 7279?

22 A. This is Abu Maali.

23 Q. And the next page, 7280?

24 A. That is the same person.

25 Q. The same person as whom? The name, please.

Page 593

1 A. Abu Maali.

2 Q. And number 7281?

3 A. This is, again, Abu Maali.

4 Q. And page 7282?

5 A. I think that, too, is Abu Maali.

6 Q. And 7283?

7 A. This person is Muatez.

8 Q. 7284?

9 A. I don't know that person.

10 Q. And 7285?

11 A. I don't know this person, either.

12 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, may I tender this lot of photographs

13 in evidence?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you going to tender everything, even those that

15 he's not been able to identify?

16 MS. SARTORIO: Well, that is what the Court Officer suggested; and

17 at some point, we can refer back to this trial exhibit when it comes to

18 identifying the others.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. Well, then the

20 photographs are admitted into evidence. May they please be given an

21 exhibit number, a single exhibit number, for the entire collection.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. That will be Exhibit 92.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. And that was PT061571; am I

24 right?

25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 594

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. Thank you.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, I'd like to take you to 1995, and ask you if you

4 participated in any combat operations as a member of the El Mujahedin

5 Detachment during that year.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And can you tell us, approximately, when the first operation was

8 that you participated in, what time of year?

9 A. Well, it's hard to remember. I think it was in 1995 at Vozuca.

10 Whether it was in January or February, I don't know --

11 Q. And --

12 A. -- as far as 1995 is concerned.

13 Q. And we're going to go into Vozuca in a few minutes. I'm going to

14 have you explain, in detail, the operation that you participated in.

15 But at that time, do you recall --

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 Q. -- sorry. Go ahead.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said, "Yes."

19 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

20 Q. In 1995, can you tell us if the El Mujahed Detachment had grown in

21 numbers?

22 A. Well, yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us how much it had grown?

24 A. Well, there were quite a lot of us.

25 Q. Can you try to be more specific for the Judges, when you say

Page 595

1 "quite a lot of us"?

2 A. Well, I don't know the exact number, but there were quite a lot of

3 us.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you have been more than a hundred?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were perhaps 200 or 300

6 of us, as far as I know. Perhaps there were more of us, and perhaps not.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You estimate 200 to 300?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like that, as far as I

9 know. I never counted.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


12 Q. And where were -- where was the detachment centrally located, if

13 there was a place?

14 A. What do you mean?

15 Q. When you weren't out in the field, was there a type of command

16 post or a headquarters for the detachment to gather?

17 A. No. We were resting somewhere in Vatrostalna; and as for a

18 command post, I don't know.

19 Q. You mentioned, "We rested in Vatrostalna." What does that mean,

20 "we rested there"?

21 A. Well, some of us stayed there, some went home, and that location

22 was left to go to the line and so on. Whoever was at home, for example,

23 would go there and report, go to the line if it was necessary.

24 Q. When you say "go there and report," do you mean Vatrostalna?

25 A. Yes.

Page 596

1 Q. And is that where you would spend time -- when you weren't out in

2 the field, in the middle of a combat operation, where did you go?

3 A. Well, something like that. What do you mean, where did we go?

4 Some of us stayed in Vatrostalna; others rested at home; and then others,

5 when necessary, were at the lines.

6 Q. Well, now, in terms of the Vozuca operation, could you explain to

7 the Court the -- well, excuse me.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Let me just, first of all, I'd like to bring up Map

9 number 11 in the Court binder.

10 Could we have the map up on the screen? Okay.

11 Q. Sir, can you --

12 MS. SARTORIO: Can we zero in on the left-hand side of the map,

13 where it seems to be a congestion right above -- okay.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the town of Zavidovici.


16 Q. And can you tell us, from the town of Zavidovici, if there is --

17 what the line that is coming down, down the map and to the --

18 A. Well, it's like this.

19 Q. What's like this? Can you tell us the places that you recognise

20 on this map, if you can see it?

21 A. I can recognise the town of Zavidovici; here's Potlecje; Poljica

22 is here. [Indicates]

23 Q. Perhaps, we can --

24 A. Yes, fine. Let's have a marker.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, if you could get the witness to

Page 597

1 point at these places that he's talking about.

2 MS. SARTORIO: I am, Your Honour. I'm trying to lay the

3 foundation.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine. That's fine. That's not a

5 problem.

6 MS. SARTORIO: May I have a moment, Your Honour.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So we have the town of Zavidovici;

9 Potlecje, number 1; Poljica, number two. 2. [Marks].

10 I can't see it very well. This is Potlecje; it's a place near

11 Zavidovici.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which one, sir? I don't see what you're pointing

13 at. Number 1?

14 THE WITNESS: Potlecje.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And number 2?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 2, Poljica. Poljica. Well,

17 it's at about more or less the fifth kilometre from town. It's the fifth

18 kilometre. I can't see what it says here very clearly. Perhaps it's

19 "Sinanovici."

20 I don't whether we can enlarge this. I don't know if anyone can

21 see any better than I can.

22 I think it's Sinanovici, number 3; and to the right you have

23 Lijevca, number 4; and then Borovnica, number 5; and then it follows until

24 up the 13th kilometre, to Kamenica. So there's something missing on the

25 map.

Page 598

1 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. And I think what we need to do --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MS. SARTORIO: What we need to do at this point, Your Honour, is

4 freeze -- I'm sorry.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam Sartorio.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. We would like to capture

7 this image of the map with the markings and tender it in evidence, because

8 we need to move down the map and we'll lose these markings.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. May that page of the map be

10 admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 93.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. How did we call it, the map?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be referred to as Map number

14 11, Part 1; or Exhibit number 93, Part 1.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

17 Q. To put it in context with the first map, would you please mark

18 Borovnica again, please, as number 1.

19 A. Borovnica under number 5. [Marks] .

20 Q. And then keep going down to see what else--

21 A. This is Kamenica up next to Ravnjak; and the 13th kilometre is

22 somewhere here. I don't know what this place is called.

23 So this is the Borovnica route, Kamenica-Ravnjak up there. And

24 somewhere around here, you should have the 13th kilometre, but I don't

25 know what that part is called.

Page 599

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a problem.

2 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness keeps on saying "somewhere there,"

4 "somewhere here," and we don't see where he's pointing to.


6 Q. I would like to know, can you see the 12th kilometre on this map,

7 or do you see any markings of kilometres on where you are in the general

8 location?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, I'm sorry, Madam Sartorio. You are talking

10 about the 12th kilometre, and the witness is talking about the 13th

11 kilometre. Let's stick to what the witness says.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here I can see the number 12.


14 Q. Yes, the number 12, but you don't see a number 13, do you?

15 A. No, I can't see a number 13.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we be sure of the number 12, please, witness?


18 Q. Would you mark the number 12, please?

19 A. Number 12, "6"

20 Q. And where would the number 13 kilometre be?

21 A. Well, a kilometre further on.

22 Q. And what was located at that 13th kilometre?

23 A. Well, two or three abandoned Serbian houses.

24 Q. Okay. And was this -- was this also known, at 13th kilometre,

25 under any other name?

Page 600

1 A. I don't know. There probably was some other name, but I don't

2 know what it was.

3 Q. Is there a river nearby this 13th kilometre?

4 A. Well, what was it called? Gostovic or something like that.

5 Q. Could you put a number "7" where you believe this spot is, the

6 13th kilometre?

7 A. Well, let's say it would be somewhere around here, one kilometre

8 further on. [Indicates]

9 Q. Put a "7" there, please.

10 A. [Marks]

11 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I would like to get this map and the

12 markings entered into evidence as well.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map will be entered. What will be the exhibit

14 number?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 94.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

18 Q. Now, in terms of the -- in terms of the operations or operation

19 that you participated in 1995, would you please describe the first

20 operation that you participated in with the El Mujahed Detachment?

21 A. I don't know the exact date. When I spoke about it, the first one

22 was not a real operation; and the first operation was a real operation,

23 the one that involved actual combat.

24 Q. Okay. So we just need to characterise what the first -- not the

25 first operation, but you've mentioned there was something that you did

Page 601

1 before you actually went into combat?

2 A. Well, it was a kind of reconnoitering operation from our lines.

3 We just wanted to know what the situation was like up there.

4 Q. Okay. And when you -- okay. "Up there," can you tell us where

5 "up there" was?

6 A. Well, the lines of the Serbs, held by the Serbs at Podsjelovo.

7 Q. Let's go into, then, the first combat action. Describe for the

8 Court where that action took place, if you recall, and how long it lasted.

9 ?

10 A. Could we enlarge this? You have to scroll down a bit. A bit

11 more, please, and a bit more. And now it's fine.

12 So we passed through a place called Hajdarovici.

13 Q. Do you see that on the map?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Would you mark it, please? Thank you.

16 A. Just one minute. So we passed through Hajdarovici.

17 Can we scroll the map down a bit?

18 Q. I just have a question. Where did you start from, before you went

19 there? You don't have to put it on the map. Just a town or a place.

20 A. So we passed via Hajdarovici, and we arrived at a place called

21 Livade, but I can't see that place indicated on the map.

22 Q. We're going to move the map a little bit and make it a little

23 smaller so perhaps the area is larger, and see if you can make some

24 markings.

25 A. I see Livade now. [Marks] So through Hajdarovici, we arrived at

Page 602

1 the village of Livade, and I've marked it here.

2 Q. So that squiggle is Livade?

3 A. Yes, that is the village of Livade.

4 Q. Would you put a "1" there, please?

5 A. Now I've made a mess of it. Well, here it is. [Marks]

6 Q. And now tell us about the first combat action, if you can, where

7 it took place.

8 A. Well, outside Livade, several metres from it, were our lines.

9 Can I write on the map as I go along?

10 Q. Please do.

11 A. So this is how the line went, and then up like this. [Marks]

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter can barely here the witness.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, will you speak loud when you do speak or

14 keep quiet, because otherwise the interpreter doesn't hear you. Can you

15 repeat what you have just been saying as you wrote the line?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. This is more or less how it

17 stretched, our line, that is, above the place called Lesici, up here. And

18 where it went further on, I don't know. So this is Lesici here.

19 [Indicating] So it stretched further on above Lesici to Imamovici, which

20 is a neighbouring village.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where is Lesici?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Lesici here. I've marked it

23 with a "2." [Marks]

24 So this first simulated, this bogus action, that we carried out,

25 this was from our starting lines. We never moved anywhere from there.

Page 603

1 This was just so that we could see where the heavy weaponry was. However,

2 we did sustain some losses and some casualties. Some people were wounded

3 in that action, in that action. I call it "action." It wasn't a real

4 mission. We just had that action there, but the first real action was at

5 trig point 706.


7 Q. Is 706 anywhere on this map, that you can tell?

8 A. No, I don't see it here.

9 Q. Okay. So then just describe for the Court that action that took

10 place at the 706, and what the purpose was, and how long it took.

11 A. So this here was a reconnaissance action; and then some seven or

12 eight months had elapsed after this preparatory and the reconnoitering

13 actions, so that this real action actually took place sometime somewhere

14 around here. [Indicating] .

15 It was around trig point 706. There were some other trig point

16 markings here, but I don't know them. Anyways, I was at trig point 706.

17 Q. You're not able to see -- are you able to see any numbers on this

18 map?

19 A. No, not really.

20 Q. And how long did the 706 elevation operation last? A couple of

21 days or weeks?

22 A. It lasted about four or five days.

23 Q. And which units participated, if any, with you, with the El

24 Mujahed Detachment, for this operation?

25 A. Yes. There were some units of the army. I don't know what units

Page 604

1 of the army, but of the army.

2 Q. Okay. And did you know if any prisoners of war were taken after

3 this operation?

4 A. I don't know about the first action, whether any people were

5 captured during that action.

6 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the next action.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. Which is the first action? Are we

8 talking about this action where you were at trig point 706? Did you

9 conquer any prisoners of war during that action?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we did not. The first official

11 action that was undertaken - so this was not an action; it was just some

12 reconnoitering - the first real action was at elevation or trig point

13 706. That one lasted for four or five days, and the second action was at

14 elevation 208.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you go to 208, did you have any prisoners of

16 war captured during the action at 706?

17 THE WITNESS: No, no.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You can move on.


20 Q. Tell us about 208, please.

21 A. So at elevation 706, we set out towards Cevaljusa, down towards

22 Cevaljusa. That was the second official action. We approached Cevaljusa.

23 We did not enter the village. We stayed for four or five days there. The

24 fighting went on until we dug ourselves in there at those positions, and

25 then we stayed there.

Page 605

1 Q. And how long did that operation last?

2 A. Approximately, also three or four days. That is the usual.

3 Q. Between the 706 action and the 208, where did you physically go

4 to?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you mean, Madam Sartorio?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What does that question mean, Madam Sartorio? I

8 don't understand.

9 MS. SARTORIO: The questions means: Did he stay in the field, did

10 he, did he go home, did he go back to any location?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Is it clearer now?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean from elevation point 706,

13 where did I go after that?


15 Q. After that operation ended, where did you physically go to?

16 A. After the first action, that at elevation point 706, I went home

17 for a rest.

18 Q. And at some point did you receive -- how did you come about to

19 participate in 208? Who contacted you?

20 A. Well, the emir did. They tell us that we should come, and then we

21 go.

22 Q. Okay. And what is the name of the emir?

23 A. Abu Maali and Muatez were the emirs, as far as I know, then.

24 Q. When they tell you you should come and then "we go," where did

25 they tell you to come to?

Page 606

1 A. First we reported at Vatrostalna. That was the meeting point, the

2 concentration area; and then from there, we would go to the battle lines.

3 Q. During this time period of the 706 and the 208 operation, did you

4 ever go to the 13th kilometre place?

5 A. I don't know. I don't know that I stayed up there. When I --

6 when I came back from my rest, I would stay there for a while.

7 Q. Tell us about the next operation, please.

8 A. The next operation, the second action, the one at elevation point

9 208, took place after I don't know exactly how much time, perhaps a month

10 or longer. I'm not sure. So we reported at Vatrostalna; and from there,

11 we proceeded to the 13th kilometre. Some of us came in the morning,

12 others in the evening. And from that point, we -- at that point, we

13 prepared ourselves to proceed up to the lines.

14 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like to show the witness what is some photos

15 from pre-trial Exhibit 6165, PT6165 --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, ma'am, what do we do with what's

17 on the screen?

18 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour, sorry about that. Could we

19 freeze it and give it an exhibit number, please?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The map on the screen is

21 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number 95.

23 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like to show page 4.

24 Q. Mr. Alic, can you tell us what is depicted in this photograph?

25 A. As far as I can make out, this is the 13th kilometre, where we

Page 607

1 were located.

2 Q. And who is "we" located?

3 A. We, the El Mujahed Detachment.

4 Q. And was the detachment located here -- for how long was the

5 detachment located here? For all of 1995?

6 A. Well, initially, when we arrived in Zavidovici, we were not

7 billeted there right away. We stayed in Livade, up there in Livade. Some

8 were in houses, some were in Vatrostalna, some were reconnoitering up

9 there in Livade. Eventually, this location was found, and we were

10 billeted there. It was nearer to the lines, so that we could reach the

11 lines more quickly and so.

12 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like to show the witness number 7, photograph

13 number 7, please.

14 Q. Mr. Alic, do you -- can you tell us what is depicted in this

15 photograph and whether you saw this?

16 A. After we had completed the second action, when I set out for my

17 rest, we returned to the 13th kilometre, and that is when I saw this in

18 passing, you know. I didn't count, but there were about ten men there.

19 What happened afterwards, I have no idea.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to tell us where this place is on this

21 particular photograph?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I can make out, it

23 was the 13th kilometre.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, when you say you saw ten men there, what were

25 these ten men doing?

Page 608

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were lying there. I don't know

2 what they were doing. They were prisoners. I don't know what happened

3 afterwards.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "ten men," are you referring to these

5 people who are lying down?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't count; but as I stated

7 in my statement, there were some ten or so people -- men there.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand. But when you are talking about that

9 number, you are referring to the people who are lying down? You are not

10 referring to the people who are standing, like the one with a gun and the

11 other one?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Madam Sartorio.


15 Q. Sir, do you recognise anyone in this photograph?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. And when you saw these bodies lying on the ground, do you know if

18 they were dead or alive?

19 A. I didn't.

20 Q. What did you think when you saw this?

21 A. What do I know? I don't know. I couldn't -- I couldn't really --

22 I had no idea in my mind, really, what to think about it. I couldn't

23 imagine what might happen.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you imagine what had happened?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say anything off the cuff.

Page 609

1 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, may I tender this photograph into

2 evidence.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The photograph is admitted into evidence. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 MS. SARTORIO: And also the first photograph that was number -- I

6 understand there is a whole bundle of photographs, Your Honour, although I

7 wasn't going to show all the photographs to the witness. I'm not sure

8 if -- should we do that, as we did with the --

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. If you tender the whole lot, then the

11 Registrar will just mark that only this one and the other one were

12 identified.

13 MS. SARTORIO: That's fine.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 96.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


17 Q. So when you saw the photograph we just -- when you saw the bodies

18 on the ground, was that after the 208 operation or the 706?

19 A. That was after the second action, after the second one.

20 Q. Could you be more specific since we've been talking about these

21 actions with different numbers?

22 A. Yes. That was before the third action.

23 Q. Okay. Well, tell us about the third action now.

24 A. That was the final action for the -- for taking Vozuca. That is

25 when we indeed did take Vozuca. That was the last, the third action.

Page 610

1 Q. Do you recall when that last action started?

2 A. I cannot recall the month. It may have been November. I'm not --

3 I can't be sure. Perhaps, it may have been November.

4 Q. Okay. But I'd like to just set a little bit of a time frame.

5 Between the operation that you just mentioned, where you went back to the

6 camp after, and then this final operation, how much time elapsed?

7 A. Well, maybe 15 days or a month, more or less.

8 Q. Now, tell the Court briefly about the final operation.

9 A. I don't know what specifically they are interested in. What

10 should I say?

11 Q. What was the purpose of the final operation? How long did it

12 last?

13 A. The purpose was to liberate Vozuca. It went on for about ten

14 days, up until the Dayton Agreement.

15 Q. And during this operation, did the El Mujahedin Unit operate on

16 its own, or were there any other units of the ABiH operating with them?

17 A. There were other units.

18 Q. And I'm going to ask that same question for the other two

19 operations that you spoke about. Were they operating with -- was the El

20 Mujahed Detachment operating with units of the ARBiH?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And after this operation, did you at any time return to the

23 13-kilometre location?

24 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

25 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like to show the witness -- oh, I guess we're

Page 611

1 out of time. I just have four short exhibits, Your Honour, I could cover

2 hopefully in 15 minutes on Monday.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: On Monday?

4 MS. SARTORIO: If I may.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know, this witness was supposed to be one hour,

6 Madam Sartorio. You've taken the entire day.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, I know, Your Honour.


9 Is that, then, a convenient point for you to stop for today?

10 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 The matter is now being postponed to Monday, the 16th of July, at

13 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom II. You should be there at 9.00, sir.

14 Okay?

15 Thank you very much. Court adjourns.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of

18 July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.