1 Wednesday, 18th July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

9 Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Appearances for today, starting with the Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

15 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Aditya Menon, and our

16 case manager, Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 And for the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

20 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson representing the Defence of

21 General Delic; Lana Deljkic and Asja Zujo, our legal assistants.

22 WITNESS: PW-2 [Resumed]

23 [The witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 Good morning to you, too, Witness PW-2. You may be aware of this,

1 but it is my duty to remind you that you are still bound by the

2 declaration you took at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth,

3 the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

4 Okay?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 Mr. Mundis.

8 Examination by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 I would ask the witness be shown Exhibit 79.

11 Q. And while that's coming up, PW-2, let me ask you if you are

12 familiar with the Silver Shield award.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And, PW-2, during the course of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

15 were you ever personally awarded the Silver Shield award?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you see, sir, the document in front of you, Exhibit 79?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Can you please look at this document, sir.

20 MR. MUNDIS: And I would ask we go into private session,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

23 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

25 Q. Witness PW-2, when you say that there were quite a few casualties,

1 can you give us an approximate number, if you're able to do so, of the

2 number of members of the El Mujahedin Detachment killed during the time

3 period you were in that unit?

4 A. Well, I really don't know the figure. I can't really give you a

5 figure, but I know that there were quite a few of them. Quite a few

6 people were killed. People got killed in every action.

7 Q. Do you see, sir, the document that's currently in front of you?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Do you recognise or do you know the person listed on this

10 document?

11 A. I do know Sulejman from Bugojno, but I can't recognise the last

12 name. I don't know the last name, so I can't really tell you whether this

13 is this person whom I knew or not.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to the next page in both the B/C/S

15 and the English versions of this document, please. Actually, it would be

16 page 3 in English. I'm sorry.

17 Q. PW-2, do you recognise the name on the document that's

18 currently -- or the page that's currently in front of you on the screen?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. And, sir, how do you know this person?

21 A. I knew him from the El Mujahid Detachment, Adil Bosnic. I know

22 him. He's deceased. He got killed.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please go to the next page, page 3, in the

24 B/C/S version and page 5 of the English language version.

25 Q. PW-2, do you recognise or do you know the individual whose name

1 appears on this document?

2 A. I know Edin, although I don't know his last name.

3 Q. And, again, sir, how do you know this person that you've

4 identified as "Edin"?

5 A. From the El Mujahid Detachment.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we would ask that the document P02610

7 be admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document P026 --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. Document P02610 is admitted into

11 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 112.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown P02791,

15 P02791, and we would ask that the witness be shown page 3 of this document

16 in Bosnian and page 5 in English.

17 Q. Do you see this document in front of you, PW-2?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. Do you know the person whose name is listed on this document, sir?

20 A. I do. I do know Elvedin.

21 Q. And, PW-2, how do you know this person, Elvedin?

22 A. From the El Mujahid Detachment.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, we would ask that this document,

24 P02791, be admitted into evidence and be given an exhibit number, please.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That document, P02791, is admitted into evidence.

1 May it please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 113.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Mundis, the last paragraph of that certificate

5 appears to be calling for some explanation.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps I can ask the witness some questions about

7 that.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: If he knows, I would be interested. Thank you.

9 MR. MUNDIS:

10 Q. PW-2, are you familiar or do you know the circumstances under

11 which this person that you've identified as Elvedin was killed?

12 A. He went home on a leave of absence. That's in Donji Vakuf. And I

13 don't know the exact circumstances, but I know that he was killed by

14 UNPROFOR troops in front of his home. He was not armed. He was with his

15 mother.

16 Q. And, sir, I know you say you don't know the circumstances, but did

17 you hear about this incident at the time or shortly thereafter; that is,

18 in late 1995? Did you hear about what happened to this person Elvedin?

19 A. I heard that he was there. I don't know how this came about, so I

20 can't make any claims about it. I just know that he was killed in front

21 of his family house. I can't give you any more details. I don't know

22 what the UNPROFOR troops thought and what actually happened.

23 Q. Thank you, PW-2.

24 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness now be shown what

25 was previously marked P01004. That's P01004. In the Bosnian language,

1 that would be page 96; in the English language, that would be page 98,

2 please.

3 Again, I would ask that we go into private session, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MR. MUNDIS:

18 Q. PW-2, do you see a photo board in front of you with military

19 insignia on it?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MUNDIS: And perhaps if we could just take the actual photo

22 board and enlarge that for the benefit of the witness, please.

23 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you if you recognise any of these military

24 insignia that are depicted on P06187; and if you see any that you

25 personally wore during the course of your service in the Army of Bosnia

1 and Herzegovina, if you could please give us the number which is contained

2 in the upper right corner of each box on this photo board.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The

5 Prosecutor is already suggesting that all the emblems were worn in the

6 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. If he did wear in the Army of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, he has to mention when and where he wore the insignia;

8 otherwise, this is a leading question.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

10 MR. MUNDIS: I can rephrase the question, Your Honour.

11 Q. Witness, if you recognise any of these insignia that you

12 personally wore, please, first of all, identify it, and then I'll ask you

13 some follow-on questions.

14 A. I recognise number 1.

15 Q. Let me interrupt you there, sir. At what time period -- first of

16 all, did you personally wear number 1; and if so, during what time period?

17 A. I did wear it, yes, and this was in the period when I joined the

18 Muslim Forces.

19 Q. Do you recognise any of the other insignia as being those that you

20 wore at any point in time when you served in the BH Army?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. In the English interpretation had

22 said "in the period when I joined the Muslim Forces," do we equate that

23 with the BH Army?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'm simply asking him whether he --

25 which ones he wore at which time periods.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recognise number 7.

3 MR. MUNDIS:

4 Q. Witness PW-2, can you tell the Trial Chamber what insignia's

5 depicted in number 7 and at what time period or periods you wore that

6 insignia?

7 A. I don't know if I wore them, but it's familiar to me. I know it.

8 Q. And what is the insignia in Box 7 on this exhibit?

9 A. I am not sure whether those were the insignia of the Muslim

10 Forces, "Muslimanske Snage," or of the 7th Muslim Brigade, but I remember

11 seeing it.

12 Q. Do you recognise, sir, any of the other insignia as being insignia

13 that you might have worn during the time period you were in the BH Army?

14 A. It's possible I wore number 9.

15 Q. At what time period, sir?

16 A. I cannot remember, but this is the insignia of the 7th Muslim

17 Brigade, so I assume that I did wear it when I was a member of the

18 brigade.

19 Q. Do you recognise any other insignia that you wore at any point in

20 time when you served in the BH Army?

21 A. I really cannot see any others. I don't know.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, PW-2.

23 We'd ask that P06187 be admitted into evidence and be given an

24 exhibit number, please.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: P06187 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

1 given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 116.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MR. MUNDIS:

5 Q. Finally, Witness PW-2, towards the end of the war, were you aware

6 that there were any disbandment or farewell ceremonies for members of the

7 El Mujahedin Detachment?

8 A. I know that there was a kind of farewell gathering in the town of

9 Zenica.

10 Q. Do you recall, sir, the approximate time period or date or month

11 and year in which this farewell gathering occurred in Zenica?

12 A. At the end of the war. I don't know exactly. Maybe the war was

13 already over. I'm not sure.

14 Q. Do you know, PW-2, where in Zenica this gathering occurred?

15 A. I don't know exactly. In some meeting hall. I really don't know.

16 I wasn't that familiar with the town at the time.

17 Q. Did you attend this gathering, PW-2?

18 A. I was there for a brief period, yes.

19 Q. Do you recall, sir, which leaders of the El Mujahedin Detachment

20 were present at this gathering?

21 A. I don't know who the leaders were, but I know that there were

22 foreign fighters there. Probably there were people from the Command, and

23 we Bosniaks were also there. There were many people in that hall.

24 Q. To your knowledge, sir, were there any leaders of the BH Army

25 present on that occasion, senior leaders of the BH Army present on that

1 occasion?

2 A. I think that some were present, yes.

3 Q. Do you recall which senior leaders of the BH Army were present at

4 this gathering in Zenica?

5 A. I don't know specifically, but I think that there were people from

6 the 3rd Corps, and I think that Mr. Delic was there. It was crowded. I

7 cannot be 100 per cent certain, but there were senior officers there in

8 any case.

9 Q. And do you recall, sir, when you say "there were people from the

10 3rd Corps," do you remember the identities or the names of any of the

11 people from the 3rd Corps that were present?

12 A. I cannot say with certainty who was there. That wasn't absolutely

13 something that I was interested in. I was there because I was invited.

14 We were all invited.

15 Q. Can you recall, sir, what took place at this farewell gathering in

16 Zenica at the end of the war? What happened there?

17 A. I think that someone said that the war was over, that the foreign

18 fighters had to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that there was even some

19 kind of accord or agreement. I can't remember specifically, but I know

20 that this was discussed, and that everyone has to leave Bosnia upon the

21 signing of the agreement.

22 Q. Do you recall, PW-2, who it was that made these comments at that

23 gathering?

24 A. No.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, PW-2.

1 The Prosecution has no further questions at this time,

2 Mr. President.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

4 Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move to

6 questions, I would just like to move to private session first.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

8 [Private session]

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

1 [Journalist]:

2 "The actual exodus of Bosniaks living in the region of Bosanska

3 Krajina started already in March 1992 with the arrival of the large

4 formations of the former Yugoslav Army to this part of our country, as

5 well as with the activation of Chetnik units made up of local people.

6 "The crossing of Vlasic and the arrival of the ... citizens of

7 Banja Luka, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Krupa, and other towns in Bosanska

8 Krajina, meant an end to abuse and a transition into a somewhat more

9 normal life.

10 "Unfortunately, many people were not fortunate to cross Vlasic,

11 because the Chetniks took them out of convoys and killed them, throwing

12 into the canyon of river Ugar.

13 "The two-month old Roko, from the village Vecica near Kotor

14 Vators, was not so lucky to make it to Travnik. He died on the bus from

15 thirst and exhaustion, and his mother would not let him out of her arms,

16 even two days after his arrival in Travnik. Many met a similar fate.

17 "Unfortunately, all of those who took the Vlasic road and crossed

18 over to the free territory had know idea that their suffering was not

19 completely over. The buildings housing the refugees were among those hit

20 during the constant shelling of Travnik, and some people were killed and a

21 considerable number were wounded. The scenes which were filled in July of

22 last year when shrapnel from a tank grenade massacred the people located

23 in a gymnasium are not for those with weak nerves. We are showing them

24 for the first time. They speak for themselves, and thus any commentary

25 would be superfluous. However, in spite of these excess situations, a

1 river of refugees was flowing into Travnik almost daily.

2 "This is what Semin Konjalic, the Commander of the District Staff

3 of Civilian Protection in Travnik, has to say about all this."

4 [Semin Konjalic]:

5 "Just for your information, I will mention that, up until now,

6 Travnik has received around 186.000 refugees. Currently, between 27 and

7 28.000 are present in our area. When we say that we managed in any way we

8 could, you know that Travnik does not have any capacity to receive

9 refugees. However, we used some of the collective centres such as the

10 gymnasium and others. People there are not living in good conditions, but

11 most of the refugees who came to our area have been accommodated, some

12 adequately and some inadequately, but I hope that we will find better

13 solutions in a better future. However, I have said that, from a

14 geographic and strategical point of view, Travnik is in a bad location,

15 because refugees are constantly pouring into this town; and, lately, we

16 have been in a very difficult, unenviable condition regarding the

17 accommodation and food, since, as you know, there is less and less food

18 and more and more refugees."

19 [Journalist]:

20 "Unfortunately, the ethnic cleansing of the region of Bosanska

21 Krajina continues in a systematic way, thus a large number of new refugees

22 have continued to arrive, and this is how their reception has been

23 organised."

24 [Semin Konjalic]:

25 "Let me tell you, as far as the new refugees are concerned, the

1 arrival of around 5.000 of them from the Serb, the so-called Serb Krajina,

2 has been announced."

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, in relation to this interview, I would like to ask you

5 the following: It's correct, isn't it, that in the events in the summer

6 and fall of 1992, hundreds of thousands of refugees came to the area of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina; am I correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you agree that this caused a terrible situation in the region

10 of Travnik?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And now I'm going to ask you something else.

13 Please, you said that you volunteered to go to Bosnia as a

14 volunteer?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you applied at the collection centre in Zagreb, the Republic

17 of Croatia; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This centre was in the area where the Zagreb Fair is usually being

20 held. This is in the Republic of Croatia.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You, as a Bosnian volunteer, did not report at the Zagreb mosque

23 to go to Bosnia; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it's correct. I did not report there.

25 Q. The Zagreb mosque did not have anything to do with your arrival as

1 a Bosnian volunteer to Bosnia?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You said that you were met by the Territorial Defence in Travnik;

4 is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You were assigned to the front line immediately; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Before that, you did not have any military experience; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. You didn't even serve the military term of duty in the former JNA?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So, before you were assigned by the Territorial Defence to the

14 lines, you did not go through basic training, did you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. At the collection centre of Bosnian volunteers in Zagreb, there

17 wasn't a single foreign fighter with you, an Arab; is that correct?

18 A. That is correct, no.

19 Q. And you said that you were assigned to the Krajina unit; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The 1st Krajina Battalion; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You will agree with me that at least a half of the fighters of

25 that unit did not have weapons at all, did they?

1 A. No, they did not.

2 Q. You didn't have uniforms?

3 A. We had some old uniforms, but we didn't all have them. We had

4 some old American uniforms that were used.

5 Q. All right. Thank you. It would be fair to conclude, wouldn't it,

6 that this unit where you were, the Krajina Battalion, was an average unit

7 of the Territorial Defence or the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the

8 time; am I correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So we could say that it was unequipped?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Regardless of everything, I would like to suggest something to

13 you. Regardless of the difficult conditions in which it operated, we saw

14 these refugees, Witness; isn't that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The lack of equipment. Would you agree with me that the Krajina

17 unit still tried to introduce order and discipline amongst its fighters;

18 isn't that right?

19 A. Yes, of course.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now please

21 show the witness Exhibit 42. It's a Defence exhibit, D42.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May Exhibit D42 please be shown to the witness.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, until we

24 see the document, I'm going to say, Your Honours, that this is the code of

25 conduct of fighters of Bosanska Krajina.

1 Thank you very much. I would like to have the Bosnian version of

2 the document enlarged a little bit, please. Thank you very much.

3 Q. Witness, now I'm going to quote from the code. The document

4 states: "A fighter of Bosnian Krajina, a combatant of the Bosnian Krajina

5 is member of the single army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

6 And it goes on to say: "I shall defend and protect."

7 I'm not going to read everything to you, just some parts.

8 It says: "The rights, freedoms and property of the people and

9 citizens of the Republic."

10 And then it goes on to say -- it mentions the rules of conduct

11 before, during, and after combat operations.

12 I would like you to look at paragraph 4 from the top, where it

13 says: "I shall set a personal example and thus strengthen military

14 discipline and contribute to the firmness and monolithic character of the

15 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina units."

16 Then I am going to read to you paragraph 6. It says: "I shall

17 treat prisoners and civilians in the spirit of orders and in compliance

18 with the Geneva Convention."

19 And then can you please look at paragraph, the fourth one from the

20 bottom, which says: "I shall oppose all forms of negative activities."

21 And then it also says: "I shall preserve the reputation and

22 honour of the unit, the flag, and the Coat of Arms of the Republic."

23 And, finally, it says: "Upon entering the unit, I, a combatant of

24 the Bosnian Krajina, accept the Code of conduct of combatants of the

25 Bosnian Krajina, members of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

1 Herzegovina with my signature."

2 This document is a document of Nedzad Muharem Santa, son of

3 Muharem, and it was signed on the 2nd of April 1992.

4 I'm going to ask you the following: Do you know Mr. Nedzad Santa?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He's also a fighter from Krajina from Sanski Most who ended up in

7 Travnik; am I right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. He was also joined the Krajina Battalion that we have been

10 talking, that we talked about yesterday?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now I would like to ask you: It is true, is it not, that the

13 Command of the Krajina Battalion demanded that its fighters abide by this

14 kind of code as described here?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. No distinction was made on the basis of ethnic background or

17 religion, in terms of conduct that was required?

18 A. Well, yes, you're right.

19 Q. All citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina were to be protected?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The official flag and the coat of arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina

22 were to be protected?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to get

25 an exhibit number for this document.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll get an exhibit number. The document is

2 admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

3 Madam Vidovic, just to remind you of our guidelines, where you've

4 made such an extensive reading of a document, you remember you said

5 yourself yesterday, the need to enter it into evidence becomes redundant

6 and it just over burdens the record.

7 If you do want it admitted, could you please try to keep your

8 reading of that document to a limit. I think that's based on the

9 guidelines. I know we still not have adopted them, but at least that has

10 not been objected to.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will

12 strive to read only those portions that I deem to be relevant. That is

13 why I opted to present just the shortest of such documents, and I read

14 just very short excerpts from it.

15 Thank you. Yes, I will be guided by your instructions.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we give it an exhibit number, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 117.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic, did the witness actually sign a

20 similar declaration? And maybe I should explain.

21 I was always trying to be polite when I put questions to the

22 witness while either party is examining or cross-examining. I thought

23 that the polite way of doing it is to put the question through the

24 counsel, rather than addressing myself directly to the witness, and I will

25 address myself directly to the witness when we have questions from the

1 Bench.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to admit this

3 into evidence, and that was to be my next witness [as interpreted] for

4 this witness.

5 Q. Sir, I asked whether you knew Mr. Santa, and you said you did.

6 And now I want to ask you: Do you recall ever signing such a document

7 upon joining the Krajina unit?

8 A. I am familiar with this document, but I can't recall whether, at

9 the time when I did this transfer, whether I had the time to actually sign

10 it. I can't really remember. I know that there were many things that we

11 were supposed to do, and I know about this document, but I can't now tell

12 you whether I signed it or not.

13 Q. But you did see this type of document in the Krajina unit, did you

14 not?

15 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and thank

17 you, Witness.

18 Q. You will agree, in fact, you have agreed, that the Command of the

19 Krajina unit demanded discipline, but it is true, is it not, that it did

20 not have the means to implement its orders of this nature? Am I right

21 when I say that?

22 A. Well, this was the period right at the beginning of the war, when

23 things were getting organised slowly. It just went gradually.

24 Q. When I mentioned the word "means," perhaps I confused a bit. I

25 wanted to ask you whether, at that time, it was true that there was no

1 military police set up in 1992 and early 1993 that could be deployed to

2 prevent any violations of this code, for instance?

3 A. Well, it probably didn't have that many forces to do that, because

4 chaos reigned. I can't really explain this to you. Things were just

5 beginning to get organised.

6 Q. Thank you. People simply left the unit because it didn't have any

7 weapons. It didn't have anything to offer, this unit, I mean?

8 A. I left because there weren't any weapons around.

9 Q. And you were not the only one. People got transferred en masse?

10 A. Well, many people from Krajina joined the Muslim Forces, and there

11 was a company-strength unit there later on, perhaps even more than that.

12 Q. Witness, you said that you did not ask for anyone's permission and

13 that you did not report to anyone when you got the transfer?

14 A. I did not.

15 Q. If I were to put it to you that the reason for this was because

16 the level of organisation in the military units was such that there were

17 no ways and means to prevent people from doing that, would I be right?

18 A. Well, I can't give you a precise answer to this question, but I

19 really didn't feel any need to report to anyone. I just up and left.

20 There were no weapons. I was not the only one who did that. I was simply

21 not thinking in those terms. I.

22 Probably should have reported to someone, but believe me when I

23 say that I really didn't think about that, because quite a few of us

24 people from Krajina left and we went there.

25 Q. But the unit itself did not have any assets to prevent that?

1 A. Well, for sure, yeah, they didn't.

2 Q. You said that the army was in the process of getting established?

3 A. Yes. I know that, after a while, some people went back to Croatia

4 and so on. I know that this was prohibited. People were not allowed to

5 go back from their units, but I know that quite a few people did do just

6 that. They went back.

7 Q. Will you agree that in 1992, in Central Bosnia, there was general

8 chaos? I'm not exaggerating if I say that?

9 A. Yes, that's true.

10 Q. You answered some questions yesterday about the barracks where you

11 were, and I would like to ask you some questions.

12 You told us that the Krajina Battalion was in the Travnik

13 barracks; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Witness, it is true that the barracks in question at the same time

16 housed many of the refugees and families of the fighters who had come here

17 from the Bosnian Krajina?

18 A. Yes. The barracks was huge, and many of the families were

19 accommodated in one part of the barracks.

20 Q. So you told us yesterday that elements of the HVO were also there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So we have a situation where we have the Krajina fighters, the HVO

23 fighters, and families and many refugees in the barracks; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Witness, you will agree with me that at the time the barracks

1 looked like an accommodation for large numbers of people, rather than a

2 military barracks?

3 A. Well, I know that there was always a crush there. Everybody was

4 there. It was a weird situation, but I really didn't pay much attention

5 to that. But all kinds of things happened there.

6 Q. It would be fair to say, would it not, that it was not possible

7 for the battalion command to monitor all that was going on?

8 A. Well, I don't know to what extent it was possible to monitor the

9 goings on, but the refugees were there. The HVO was separate, but the

10 Command really didn't have -- it did not impose any kind of order.

11 Q. You told us, yesterday, that you had seen the foreign fighters

12 enter the barracks; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You don't really know why they were there?

15 A. Well, I don't know that because I wasn't really interested in

16 that, but I do know that I saw them on one occasion.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You will indicate when it's convenient.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I

19 will, indeed.

20 Q. Now, regarding the Arabs, I would like to ask you one question.

21 At that time when you were there at this location that we've been

22 discussing, the barracks, when those people went there, it is true that at

23 that time the Arabs had provided humanitarian aid to the refugees also?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It is true, is it not, that you were unable to distinguish between

1 humanitarian workers and Arab fighters?

2 A. Well, I didn't make this distinction at all, and I didn't really

3 give it much thought.

4 Q. And that is why you cannot claim that the persons, those Arabs who

5 went into the barracks, that they were fighters rather than humanitarian

6 workers?

7 A. I can't be certain.

8 Q. Thank you. You've told us that, because of the disorganization in

9 its ranks, you left the Krajina unit and joined the so-called Muslim

10 Forces; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The Muslim Forces had more weapons, significantly more weapons?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It is right to say that those forces were not organised according

15 to the principle of Bosnian Army that you had belonged before?

16 A. Well, there were some differences.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, do you want me to stop

18 here for the break?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court adjourned. We'll come back at quarter to

22 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, I would

2 like to apologise to you and the interpreters and all those present. I

3 understood that the break was around 10.30, and this is why I would just

4 like to apologise before we resume.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Witness, we were talking about the Muslim Forces before the break,

8 and I would like to continue with that.

9 I would like to ask you the following: Do you agree that Muslim

10 Forces functioned as groups?

11 A. There were combat groups of 20-odd people each when I joined the

12 Muslim Forces.

13 Q. Thank you. And they functioned in accordance with religious

14 principles; isn't that right?

15 A. The religious influence was strong; yes, like that.

16 Q. And they were gathered around imams, the religious officials?

17 Let's put it that way.

18 A. There were several people who had completed religious schools.

19 Q. Thank you. The group that you joined was in Travnik, right,

20 you've told us that. And I want to ask you the following: Efendi Ahmed

21 Adilovic was one of the key people in that group, in those

22 forces, when you joined; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you help us, if you know, his brother was Zukdija

25 Adilovic; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And he studied the Islamic sciences in an Arab country; is that

3 right? Do you know about that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that is correct, isn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

8 show the witness document PT1009.

9 Your Honours, for the transcript, I would like to say that this

10 document has two parts. The first is this page that we're looking at.

11 Q. Witness, can you please look at this document? Can you see that

12 it's a document of the defence headquarters of the Zenica District of the

13 21st of July, 1992; and in the heading, it says that it is sent to the

14 Main Staff of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to Fikret

15 Muslimovic. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. And you also see that attached to the document, another document

18 is being forwarded; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

21 look at page 2 of this document. This document has the heading of "The

22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Zenica District Defence Staff,"

23 and bears the date 21st of July, 1992. And it can be seen that it was

24 signed by the Chief of Security, and the document bears his stamp and

25 signature.

1 Q. Witness, I'm going to quote two parts from this document. The

2 document states the following:

3 "On the 21st of July, 1992, I received the Commander of the

4 Municipal Staff in Travnik, R.H., for an interview at his request, and he

5 reported the following to me: That a paramilitary unit under the name

6 'Muslimanske Snage,' Muslim Forces, is being formed in the territory of

7 the Municipality of Travnik. The name of the ideological leader is

8 Zihnija. The organisation of those units is exclusively on a single

9 ethnic and religious basis.

10 "They recruit men from the regular armed forces formation.

11 Soldiers are paid 50 German marks, and officers 200 German marks a month.

12 They spread rumours among the Muslim population that they are the only

13 ones who are protecting the Muslims, and that under no circumstances can

14 they be protected by someone who does not pray to God or bow down."

15 Witness, you probably haven't seen this document, but I would like

16 to ask you something about the facts that I have read out to you.

17 You can see the document bears the date of 21st of July 1992, and

18 that the Travnik Staff Commander is informing about Muslim Forces being

19 formed in the area of Travnik, and that they're being recruited among the

20 regular armed forces.

21 Do you agree that this fact that this man is reporting is actually

22 true?

23 A. The information that only Muslims were there is true and that no

24 one else could join. As for the rest, I am really not familiar with those

25 things. Some I know, and some I don't know, actually.

1 Q. All right. Thank you. And can you please tell us what you do

2 know of what is mentioned here? Is it true that --

3 A. Only Muslims were there. No other ethnic groups could join.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. You told us that you joined the unit in

5 August; is this correct?

6 A. Yes, I think in late August.

7 Q. And you also said that only Muslims were there; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Please, now I am going to ask you this: According to what you

10 know, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or units of the Army of Bosnia

11 and Herzegovina that you were in, such as the Krajina unit or other units

12 [as interpreted] of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, were not based on

13 ethnicity; is that correct?

14 A. The 1st Krajina Battalion had Croats and even a few Serbs, but it

15 was a multi-ethnic unit.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The English translation says, "units or other units

17 of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were not based on ethnicity." I'm

18 not quite sure this is what you said, and I just wanted to find out if

19 being a Muslim, is that an ethnic characteristic or is it a religious

20 characteristic?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I keep speaking about

22 units. I am not linking Muslim Forces with the units of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina; and in the translation, it is constantly saying "other units

24 of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina." I would, first, like to clarify

25 that.

1 I am speaking about the Muslim Forces and about units of Bosnia

2 and Herzegovina; while in the transcript, constantly it says "other units

3 of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina." This is what it was like

4 yesterday and this is what it is like today, and this is why I would like

5 the transcript to reflect my questions accurately.

6 The other thing -- well, anyway. Thank you, Your Honours, for

7 your intervention.

8 Q. Witness, please, let's just clarify this --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute, ma'am. I'm not quite sure what

10 you're saying answers my question.

11 The witness has said that from this document, the one thing that

12 he knows is correct is that only Muslims were members. My question to you

13 is, and I just want clarity here: When you talk of "Muslims," are you

14 talking of an ethnic group or are you talking of a religious group?

15 And the only reason I'm asking is because the English

16 interpretation refers to ethnicity.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, when you said "Muslims," did you mean the Muslim faith or

19 did you mean Bosniaks?

20 A. What I meant were Bosniak Muslims.

21 Q. So Bosniaks of Islamic faith?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If I may, this is a problem I

24 have with this. It's actually a translation problem, if you will, because

25 I see in the English version that we're talking about ethnicity; whereas,

1 in my headphones, I hear the French and we're talking about national

2 basis. So a national basis, or a nationality, and ethnicity are two

3 different things.

4 This is what I would like to know: Would it be possible for

5 Ms. Vidovic to explain to me, or the witness, if they are talking about an

6 ethnic, ethnicity, or are they talking about a nationality? Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the best thing

8 perhaps would be to read --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Or a religion?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I understand, Your

11 Honours. The best thing would be to read the sentence of the document

12 that I showed the witness that has to do with this part that is unclear.

13 It says: "Only the organisation is exclusively on single ethnic

14 and religious bases."

15 Q. And in relation to this, Witness, I'm going to put this question

16 to you again so we can clarify it: Is it true that this "single ethnic"

17 means that we are referring to only Bosniaks?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And as for the "religious basis," that we are talking about people

20 of the Islamic faith?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I am

23 going to look --

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But, once again, there is a

25 discrepancy between the French version and the English version. In the

1 English version, we're always talking about "single ethnic" and "religious

2 bases"; whereas, in the French interpretation, and I must say I understand

3 a little Serbian as well, and in the version that I hear from you,

4 Ms. Vidovic, I believe you're mentioning -- or the word you're using is

5 "nationality." You're not using the term "ethnicity"; is that right?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really cannot help

7 you there. Perhaps we can ask for an interpretation or an explanation.

8 What is clear and what the witness has responded is that there were

9 Bosniaks or Bosnians of the Islamic faith. This is how it was in reality.

10 I --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand the Defence position. This

12 document is submitted by the Defence.

13 Is it the Defence's position that the Muslimanske Snage was

14 composed exclusively of Bosniaks of Islamic faith?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the position of the Defence.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is the position, yes, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I see on this document that it is written that

20 the name -- that the organisation of the unit is exclusively on a "single

21 nation" and on "religious basis." The transcript says "ethnicity."

22 So I would then want to understand that the position of the

23 Defence is that the Muslimanske Snage didn't have any person who was not a

24 Bosniak and who didn't also belong to the religion of Islam?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is how I

1 understood the witness.

2 Q. Witness, did I understand you correctly?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me. Now I am getting confused, because I

5 would have thought that the Muslimanske Snage also comprised the Arabs;

6 that is to say, people who were not Bosnians.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the purpose of this

8 document and the question, actually, this is something that I'm just going

9 to clarify within the next half an hour. Yes. I'm going to come to that

10 topic. Thank you very much.

11 Q. And just one more thing in relation to this document. Witness, I

12 would just like to ask you --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Do we still have the document on the

14 monitor?

15 Q. Yes. I would just like you to look at this enclosure, insignia of

16 Muslim Forces. So this insignia here. Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please, do you remember this insignia?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is this the insignia that you wore when you were in the Muslim

21 Forces?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, perhaps

24 we can -- I would like to tender this document. Can it please be given an

25 exhibit number. Can we please --

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm waiting for this interpretation. Okay. The

2 document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit

3 number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 118.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

8 show the witness document -- Exhibit 103.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it an exhibit?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is the

11 exhibit shown to the witness yesterday by the Prosecutor.

12 Please, can we zoom in on the first part of this document? Can we

13 also look at the English version?

14 This is a list of fighters of the Muslim fighters from the area of

15 Travnik, dated the 15th of September, 1992.

16 Q. Can we please look at the person listed under number 2? This is

17 Abdula Makteuf, son of Muhammad, born in 1959.

18 The Prosecutor asked you about this person yesterday, and you said

19 that you know who this person is?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you know that the person is from Iraq?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please, please. It's true, isn't it, that that person lived in

24 and worked in Bosnia at least ten years before the war; is that correct?

25 A. I know that he was in Bosnia and Herzegovina before the war. I

1 know that he was there for a long time, but I don't know for how long.

2 Q. You also probably -- you also probably know that he was married to

3 a woman from Travnik and that he had a family there before the war?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. He also had his shop before the war that was called his shop

6 before the war, let's say?

7 A. I know that he was in some kind of business, but I don't know

8 what.

9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask a question.

10 To your knowledge, do you know if this person had a Bosnian

11 nationality?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. In this respect, Witness, I would like to ask you the following

15 question, please: It would be wrong to conclude -- on the basis of his

16 name on this list, it would be wrong, rather, to consider him a foreign

17 fighter, a Mujahid, who had come to fight in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the

18 war; is that correct?

19 A. He had lived there for a long time before the war, so, no, he did

20 not come during the war.

21 Q. Thank you. So on the basis of his example, it would be wrong to

22 conclude that the foreign fighters were members of the Muslim Forces, on

23 the basis of his name?

24 A. As far as I know, foreign fighters were not there. There were

25 just us, and we had our records. Records were kept.

1 Q. I would like you to answer my question: On the basis of his

2 example, because his name is listed here, it would be wrong to conclude

3 that foreign fighters were members of the Muslim Forces? Did you

4 understand what I want to say?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And what is your answer?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. I would now like you to look at page 2 of this

9 document, or rather, page 3 of this document.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And the ERN number is 0129-8780.

11 Q. I would like to ask you to look at this sign on this document.

12 You saw the insignia of the Muslim Forces a little while ago, and do you

13 agree with me that this is the insignia of the Muslim Forces on the stamp?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I don't have

16 any more questions related to this document, so we can put it away.

17 Now I would like to ask the usher to show the witness Exhibit 116.

18 It's the document with the patches.

19 Q. I would like you to look at this document once again. I'm not

20 talking about the insignia that you wore. I would like you to look at the

21 patch listed under 12.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you agree that this is the patch worn by the BH Army?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You've seen a little while ago, in the document that we showed

1 you --

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in fact, I forgot to

3 ask admission for the document that we used before, the one that was

4 numbered 103, the document that contained the insignia of the Muslim

5 Forces.

6 Q. And will you agree with me that it did not bear any insignia of

7 the BH Army there?

8 A. I didn't see any insignia of the BH Army.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I am going to spend some more time dealing with the Muslim Forces

13 and the units of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In general, I would

14 like to ask you once again about the situation in the field in 1992 and

15 1993.

16 You agreed with me that chaos had reigned there in 1992 and the

17 first half of 1993; did I understand you correctly?

18 A. Yes, certainly.

19 Q. It would never occur to you that the BH Army units had proper

20 military organisation; for instance, the Krajina unit that you belonged to

21 or any other units that you were able to observe?

22 A. Throughout 1992, and perhaps even into 1993, things were getting

23 organised. After the conflict with the Croats, this was when the army

24 became well structured.

25 Q. Let me ask you a question. I think that you may have information,

1 relevant information. The situation was so chaotic among the BH Army

2 units in this area that they would fire at each other. BH Army units in

3 the field would fire on each other, because of this lack of organisation?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which area are we specifically talking about,

5 ma'am?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We are talking about the Travnik

7 area all the time. That's where the witness was operating.

8 Q. Witness, I don't know if you can assist me.

9 A. Am I supposed to answer?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I know that while I was in the barracks and when we came back from

12 our first tour of duty in the field, there were some incidents in Travnik,

13 two or three such incidents. I, myself, participated in such an incident.

14 There was a clash between a local unit and some of us from Krajina, and a

15 local member was wounded in this clash.

16 Q. Did I understand you correctly that this was because the army was

17 not properly organised?

18 A. Well, that was because the situation was complex because of the

19 chaos. I don't know. I can't really tell you why. But two or three

20 times I was there when there would be those clashes, because there was no

21 military police to introduce any sort of -- compose any sort of order.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. I would now like to ask you some questions

23 about foreign fighters.

24 Yesterday, you gave evidence about foreign fighters, Arabs, whom

25 you had seen in the fighting before you joined the El Mujahid Detachment,

1 and I would like to ask you the following. I would like to ask you to do

2 the following: Just listen to my questions, because I want to ask you

3 questions that relate to the period before you joined the detachment and

4 after the detachment.

5 So my question now relates to the events that preceded the time

6 when you became a member of the El Mujahid Detachment. Do you understand

7 me?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You explained to us that sometimes you had fought in the same

10 areas with the Arab fighters; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you said that you fought the same enemy?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You told us at that time that you were in the Muslim Forces; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It would be wrong to say, would it not, that they were, I mean,

18 the Arabs, were under the command of the Muslim Forces in those actions?

19 A. Well, they had those special groups. The first time that I went

20 into action, there were two or three groups there. An Arab, a Turkish,

21 and perhaps another group were there, and they were independent, more or

22 less.

23 Q. You said that they had their own commanders?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You had your own commanders; is that true?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You testified that you went to Karaula and that you found the

3 Arabs there; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You fought up there for a while; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does the name Faruk Selman mean anything to you?

8 A. I think I do recognise the name. I think so.

9 Q. I'm talking about Faruk Selman, born in 1973, from Kljaci. Do you

10 know him?

11 A. I know two brothers. One is Faruk and the other might be Fijic.

12 One of them was killed. I can't now remember which was which. But at any

13 rate, there were two brothers, and one of them was Faruk.

14 Q. So you're sure that one of them -- one of them got killed at

15 Karaula?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Thank you. In your evidence yesterday, you mentioned Abu Ubeidah?

18 A. Yes. I met him at Karaula.

19 Q. If someone were to say that his group fought under the command of

20 the Muslim Forces, that would not be true; is that so?

21 A. Well, they had their own weapons, their own logistics, so they

22 were there as independent operators. Abu Ubeidah was one of them. I met

23 two of them. I don't remember the others.

24 Q. I will go back to this question later. But I would like you to

25 assist the Trial Chamber, and all of us, indeed, to understand how the

1 Arab forces operated in the field in Central Bosnia.

2 You will agree with me, will you not, that in Central Bosnia,

3 throughout the war, there were several different groups of foreign

4 fighters active in that area?

5 A. Well, there were quite a few of those Arab groups. There were the

6 Arabs at Karaula, some at Mehurici. There were some at -- in Tesanj and

7 in some other towns. I know that there were quite a few of them. I don't

8 know some of those groups, but I know that there were many of them, and I

9 have heard about some of them.

10 Q. Fine, fine. I will take this slowly. They operated in 1992 and

11 1993; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. Throughout the war, perhaps.

13 Q. In 1995, too, they took part in the fighting?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And they included in their ranks Turks, Arabs, Iraqis, Algerians,

16 Libyans, Saudi Arabians?

17 A. Well, from many Arab countries.

18 Q. You told us that Abu Ubeidah's group was not the only group of

19 foreigners that was there while you were at Karaula?

20 A. It was not the only one, that's true.

21 Q. It is true that there was a group of Turks operating independently

22 from him? I don't know if you know about that.

23 A. Yes. They were a separate unit.

24 Q. They had their own emir; is that right?

25 A. Yes. They did, but I don't remember his name. I don't know who

1 it was.

2 Q. Thank you, Witness. In your evidence yesterday, in answer to the

3 questions the Judges put to you about the coordination between Arabs and

4 the Muslim Forces in Bijelo Bucje, do you remember that? You answered

5 those questions, and let me just remind you.

6 At page 52 of the transcript, lines 10 through 13, you said -- you

7 said, "There were very frequent attacks and actions, with run-around in

8 all directions. There were constant attacks. We had light weapons, and

9 we were attacked by tanks."

10 On the basis of what you said, Witness, I conclude that there was

11 no coordination. Am I right?

12 A. Well, this was among the most difficult situations I found myself

13 in during the war. I can't really see any coordination there, because we

14 went to the confrontation lines all day. We were there all day and all

15 the nights, and I really can't see any coordination because attacks --

16 there were attacks coming on from all the sides. So I can't really see

17 how anything could be coordinated.

18 Q. I will now move on to a different topic, Witness.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like the witness to be

20 shown Exhibit 104.

21 Q. Yes. This is the document, and I would like you to look at this

22 page. You said yesterday, when you were asked about this document, that

23 you find it strange; is that so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like you to look at it now.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

2 scroll down this document a little bit so that we can -- scroll up so that

3 we can see the heading on this document.

4 Q. Do you agree that there is a series of names here and that

5 somebody simply wrote, by hand, "Muslim Forces." Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Please, could you look --

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like the witness to see

9 the entire page of this document.

10 Q. Witness, would you agree that there is nothing in this document

11 that would indicate that the document was sent to someone?

12 A. You can't see anything like that on this page.

13 Q. Also, you cannot see if anyone received this document?

14 A. There is nothing, other than names, on the document.

15 Q. And as I understood from what you said, you lived your whole life

16 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. If I were to say to you that you did not read

17 in any document in your life that it says "Mithat ibn Ismet" or "Ahmet

18 ibn" something. Would I be right? This is not something that's

19 customary, isn't it?

20 A. I've absolutely never seen anything like that.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, I would like

22 the witness to look at page 06032514 of this document, 06032514. Very

23 well.

24 Q. Could you please now look at the document? Do you agree that the

25 typing, the typewritten text finishes at number 89?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then you can see that from 91 to 97, a number of Arab names

3 was written by hand; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Witness, I carefully followed your testimony yesterday. You

6 looked at different lists. You did not identify any of these persons with

7 these names as members of the detachment; is that correct?

8 Please, can you look at these names?

9 A. These names are not familiar.

10 Q. None of the persons here -- I asked you now about members of the

11 detachment, but would you say that any of these persons were people that

12 you met while you were in the Muslim Forces?

13 A. These names are not familiar to me at all.

14 Q. So you cannot confirm if any of them was a member of the Muslim

15 Forces?

16 A. No, I cannot.

17 Q. Now I'm going to put some questions to you about the 7th Muslim

18 Brigade.

19 You became a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade when it was

20 established?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The Prosecutor showed you yesterday Exhibit 107.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to see the

24 document, again, please.

25 For the transcript, Your Honours, I would just like to say that

1 this is a document of the Armed Forces, Supreme Command Staff, of the 19th

2 of November 1992, to the 3rd Corps Command. The Chief of Staff is the

3 signature.

4 Your Honours, I would ask the witness to do the same thing the

5 Prosecutor asked him to do yesterday, and that is to look at paragraph

6 number 1 that says "Formation."

7 The document says: "I order organisational preparations,

8 formation. Form a mountain brigade under the name of the 7th Muslim

9 Mountain Brigade from the ARBiH armed units currently engaged on the

10 Vlasic plateau. Form the brigade in accordance with the temporary wartime

11 establishment," and so on and so forth.

12 Q. Please, this document orders that the 7th Muslim Brigade be formed

13 from forces engaged on the Vlasic plateau; and in relation to that, I

14 would like to put the following question to you: You also fought at the

15 Vlasic plateau; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It would be wrong now, wouldn't it, to believe that only Muslim

18 Forces exclusively were at the Vlasic plateau? That would be wrong to

19 believe?

20 A. The Vlasic plateau was full of different units. It's a large

21 area, and there were different units there.

22 Q. You told us this yesterday, but I would like to clarify the

23 following with you now. I assert that the brigade comprised at least four

24 groups of fighters. I'm going to ask you about each one separately, and I

25 would like you to answer with a "yes" or "no" to my question.

1 Did you understand me?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The first group were members of the army of the Travnik

4 Territorial Defence Municipal Staff; am I right, if you know, of course?

5 A. Can you please repeat that?

6 Q. The first group that fought on the Vlasic plateau was that of the

7 members of the Municipal Staff of the Travnik Territorial Defence?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. The second group was members of other units of the armija; for

10 example, the 308th and the 312th Brigade?

11 A. I don't know what their names were, but I know that there was a

12 brigade from Novi Travnik and a brigade from Travnik. It's possible that

13 it was the 312th. I'm not sure right now.

14 Q. Well, that is an answer to my question. Thank you.

15 And then there was this group that you fought in, the members of

16 the Muslimanske Snage from Travnik; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, finally, there was a group of able-bodied men who had not

19 fought anywhere before that; am I correct?

20 A. Yes, you are.

21 Q. What I would like to ask you now about all of this is the

22 following: It would be wrong, wouldn't it, to claim that all members of

23 the Muslim Forces, the Muslimanske Snage, were automatically part of the

24 7th Muslim Brigade or the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade; isn't

25 that right?

1 A. I don't know how this was. I was out in the field a lot. I know

2 that there was a reorganisation underway. So who was part of that,

3 specifically, I don't know.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Am I right when I think that some of your

5 co-fighters crossed into the 308th or into the 312th or, let's say, these

6 Travnik brigades that you mentioned earlier; is that correct?

7 A. Look. People frequently switched from one unit to another, so

8 this is possible. There were lots of people moving from one brigade to

9 another, one unit to another. The units changed.

10 Q. But it is also right that some of your co-fighters immediately

11 joined the Arabs and did not join the 7th Brigade; is that correct?

12 A. This is possible. I don't know. It's possible.

13 Q. All right. Very well. In any case, you said that you became a

14 member of the 7th Muslim at the end of 1992, and I would now like to ask

15 you something about the 7th Brigade itself, about how it was structured,

16 please.

17 It's right, isn't it, that the 7th Muslim, at the point in time

18 when you joined it, did not look like an ordered military unit, a

19 structured military unit; isn't that right?

20 A. I already said that. The reorganisation and the structuring took

21 place only after the conflicts with the HVO were over. That was when some

22 sort of a system was set up in the 7th, in the Krajina, and in all the

23 other units.

24 Q. During the winter of 1992 until the summer of 1993, because now

25 you have limited us to that period, I would be right if I believe that the

1 7th Muslim did not have a professional military command, wouldn't I?

2 A. Yes. There was a command, but it was these emirs. It was this

3 religious influence there. And as for how all of that looked, it's --

4 Q. The gist of my question is the following: It did not have a

5 militarily-educated staff or personnel. When I say that, I mean officers

6 who had completed military academies. That is the gist of my question.

7 A. No, absolutely not. Perhaps some did have something, but these

8 were not military personnel.

9 Q. Thank you. The first commander, Mr. Asim Koricic, was a

10 sportsman, an athlete, and he completed sports trainer education; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, that is more or less what I heard, and I think that that is

13 correct.

14 Q. So he did not complete military academy; is that right?

15 A. No, he did not.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to show the

17 witness document D47. This is a Defence exhibit.

18 Your Honours, that is not that number, but we can do it like this.

19 Can we show the witness, please, document ERN 0181-1276.

20 Your Honours, the e-court is showing D46, but this is -- we need

21 document 0181-1276.

22 Thank you very much. We found the document.

23 Q. All right. This is a document of the Commander of the 1st

24 Battalion of the 7th Muslim, Fadil Hodzic, and you can see in the upper

25 corner that the document was drafted on the 15th of March 1993.

1 Witness, now you can see the date of the document, and I can see,

2 Witness, that you are tired, but I'm going to read two small -- I'm going

3 to quote two small parts of this document.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please just -- all right.

5 And maybe the Bosnian version, we can zoom in a little bit on it so the

6 witness can see it a little better.

7 Q. And before we begin to quote from the document, I would like to

8 ask you if you knew Mr. Fadil Hodzic?

9 A. I know of him.

10 Q. Thank you. I would now like to quote a small part of the

11 document, which says, this is the first part of the first paragraph of the

12 document: "Because of his improper behaviour and failure to carry out

13 orders issued by the Commander of the 1st Battalion that he refused to

14 carry out, I demand that the company commander, Redzo Kavazovic, be taken

15 to task and punished."

16 And then lower the document goes on to say, in the time period,

17 from the 12th to the 18th of February, 1993, he refused to return to his

18 unit, ignoring all calls by the Commander of the 1st battalion, and

19 summoned 20 soldiers who supported him.

20 And then after that, it says, in one case, he publicly told the

21 soldiers that he could drink a beer and that that was no shame at all.

22 I have one question about this. Did you know Redzo Kavazovic?

23 A. I don't remember the last name, but it's possible that it's Redzo

24 from the Vitez Municipality.

25 Q. All right. Very well.

1 A. I know Redzo from Vitez. He -- I don't know his last name,

2 though.

3 Q. Yesterday, you said that the Travnik MOS became the 1st Battalion

4 of the 7th Brigade?

5 A. Well, I know that it transformed, but --

6 Q. And I want to ask you this on that topic: If I were to suggest to

7 you that there were other fighters in that battalion who were not members

8 of the Muslimanske Snage, like this Redzo, would I be right?

9 A. I know that later people from Vitez joined this battalion. I knew

10 Redzo from Vitez also.

11 Q. All right. Very well. This document indicates that fighters

12 within the battalion of the 7th had conflicts because of different

13 attitudes in terms of accepting religious precepts about behaviour in the

14 army; is that correct?

15 A. There were some people. Some people did not wish to adhere to

16 certain things, and occasionally there was the odd incident.

17 Q. Well, it seems that this Redzo thought it was a normal thing for

18 him to drink beer?

19 A. Well, he was a bit more free in that sense.

20 Q. So, according to the document, he did not observe orders by the

21 commander?

22 A. Well, he was a specific sort of person. That's how I know him.

23 Q. What I would like to ask you is the following: This document

24 actually reflects the actual situation in the battalion, doesn't it?

25 A. Well, yes. How can I put it? There were different people with

1 different personal attitudes.

2 Q. When I was reading the document, and you can see that on the

3 screen - we don't want to lose too much time here - the document refers to

4 Efendi Adilovic in several place. You said that he was the Travnik imam;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you know that he was the director of the Travnik medresa

8 during the time of the war?

9 A. He was an emir, so I don't know.

10 Q. All right. You said that he was an emir. What I would like to

11 ask you is the following: It seems that his influence was quite strong,

12 wasn't it?

13 A. Yes. He was practically the religious leader, and his influence

14 was quite strong in the Muslim Forces.

15 Q. Based on this document, when you read it, you would say that

16 Efendi Adilovic mediated in conflicts there. Would you please agree that

17 I am right if I, on the basis of this document, conclude that the

18 battalion, the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim, in the first months of its

19 existence there was confusion? Would that be the correct conclusion?

20 A. Because it included people from Vitez, and there were a couple of

21 groups, companies there. People had different positions. Emir Ahmed

22 Adilovic was there, authorised to tell people what they should do, what

23 they had to do in such-and-such a case, and so on.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

25 tender this document as a Defence exhibit, please.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 119.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You saw that this document that we have just put away bore the

8 date of the 15th of March. It was signed by Fadil Hodzic?

9 What I would like you to look at now is another document.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, can you show document D44,

11 Exhibit D44, to the witness, and you will see the document and that it

12 bears the date of the 13th of March, 1993.

13 Your Honours, for the transcript, this is a document from the

14 Command of the 7th Muslim Brigade of the 13th of March, 1993.

15 Q. At the end of the document, it says: "Commander of the 1st

16 battalion, Ahmet Zubaca."

17 Witness, can you please look at the second page of the document,

18 which bears the number 0181-1282. It says: "As for the equipment,

19 problems are cropping up. The uniforms are old and tore."

20 You've already told us that?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show page 1 of

23 this document to the witness, 0181-1281.

24 Q. Let me just quote a very small portion of this document to you.

25 It says here the command and control system, because of the lack of

1 expertise and training among the personnel, is not functioning as it

2 should be.

3 Apart from lack of expertise and training, the command and control

4 system is also impaired by the manifest bypassing of some command levels,

5 both from below upwards and vice versa. Also, the command and control

6 system is adversely affected by the fact that the battalion has not been

7 fully structured yet.

8 I would now like to point your attention to paragraph 4, where it

9 says that the improper and inadequate record-keeping causes problems in

10 this respect. The unit and personnel records have not been done yet

11 because of the shortage of forms. There aren't enough forms.

12 You belonged to this battalion in the 7th Muslim Brigade. You

13 will agree with me that this document reflects the actual situation on the

14 13th of March, or rather, in that time period, in the spring, in this

15 battalion of the 7th Muslim that we're talking about?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The command system in the battalion did not function, lack of

18 expertise in control?

19 A. Well, I don't know how it functioned, but what I do know is that

20 structure was not in place at that time. Let me repeat, once again. Once

21 the conflict with the Croats was over, everything was set up as it should

22 be. Up until that time, everything was very bad.

23 Q. I would now like to ask you just one more question in this regard.

24 The document talks about improper and inadequate record-keeping,

25 and it is stated that there were no personnel record forms. Is that

1 something you knew about?

2 A. Well, nothing was done as it should have been done.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this would be

5 an appropriate time for the break, but if we could just get an exhibit

6 number for this document.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document D44 is admitted into evidence. May it

8 please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 120.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 And, then, that will be an appropriate time to take a break.

12 Court adjourned and we'll come back at half past 12.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness, before the break, we were talking about command and

18 control in the spring of 1993, and you explained to us how it functioned

19 all the way up to the time when the conflict with the Croat forces ended

20 in that area. You agreed that the command and control in the 1st

21 Battalion was bad in the end of March 1993, and I want to ask you this:

22 You will agree with me that the situation right at the start, at the end

23 of 1992, could only have been worse?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your evidence yesterday, you mentioned Ramo Durmis; is that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You told us that he liked to be called "Abu Jihad"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You will agree with me that several persons, both among Arabs and

6 locals, had that nickname, "Abu Jihad"?

7 A. Well, there were some Arabs that used that name.

8 Q. And our local Muslims also liked to use such shortened names?

9 A. Yes, it's possible. I had a nickname, too. It was a little bit

10 different.

11 Q. Ramo Durmis was not the only Muslim who had that nickname, "Abu

12 Jihad"?

13 A. No, he was not.

14 Q. You told us that he joined the 7th Muslim Brigade, the 1st

15 Battalion, when it was established; did I understand you correctly?

16 A. I think you did, yeah.

17 Q. He was the commander of the 1st Company of the 1st Battalion in

18 December of 1992. Are you aware of that?

19 A. He was the commander. I don't know in what period, but it's

20 possible that he was the commander in December. It's possible.

21 Q. Fine. He was a member of Muslimanske Snage before, just like you?

22 A. Yes. I think he was, but I don't know when he joined. But he

23 was, yes.

24 Q. Witness, you will agree with me that the members of Muslimanske

25 Snage, the Muslim Forces, were reluctant - now we're talking about the

1 very beginning of the functioning of the 7th Muslim Brigade - were not so

2 very happy with accepting the BH Army units because of their diverse

3 ethnic background?

4 A. Could you please rephrase your question?

5 Q. I want to say the following: Members of Muslimanske Snage were

6 not all that happy to be members of the BH Army that was not composed only

7 of Muslims?

8 A. Well, there was a preference for Muslims; yes, that's true.

9 Q. In fact, to make things clearer, they did not consider it to be a

10 Muslim army?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Because you told us that's what it was not; it contained people of

13 other ethnic backgrounds?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At the beginning, they were suspicious of the members of the Army

16 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. They even feared that they would betray them sometimes?

19 A. Well, if I may be allowed to explain. I know that when Major Tara

20 came to the Muslimanske Snage, he was an active-duty serviceman, and we

21 didn't really trust him because he was from the army, because the people

22 were saying that he was there to tear the Muslimanske Snage apart, to

23 destroy them.

24 Q. Yes. In fact, they had those reservations vis-a-vis the BH Army,

25 because it accepted into its ranks members of the former Yugoslav People's

1 Army, the JNA, because the JNA was considered to have been a Serbian army?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. They considered Communists to be infidels?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. They called them "cafalic kafar" [phoen]?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That would be devils. This term means "devils"?

8 A. Yes. Well, yes.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to show a

10 document to this witness. It is PT1024.

11 Your Honours, I would like you to -- I would like to ask you for

12 some indulgence on your part. I believe that it would assist the Chamber

13 and all of us to get the interpretation from this witness about some

14 passages, and I will be therefore reading a longer excerpt. But I will

15 try to keep it as short as possible and not to overdo it.

16 Q. Witness, I don't know if you can see this document here. The

17 title of this document is "The Report on the Operations of the 1st Company

18 in the Visoko-Buci-Rakovci-Visegrad Elevation Sector."

19 The way I understood your evidence yesterday -- perhaps I

20 misunderstood you. Did I understand you correctly that you knew something

21 about the participation of Arabs at this operation in Visoko?

22 A. I do know they participated in it.

23 Q. Thank you. I would now like to quote from this document.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a document, we

25 will see at the end that it is signed by the commander of the 1st Company,

1 Ramo Durmis, and it says as follows:

2 "The action was carried out on the 28th of December, 1992, at 0600

3 hours. Following Terzic's orders, issued over the telephone, I suddenly

4 became a member of the team that was supposed to go to Visoko. Under the

5 agreement in the command, we were supposed to leave on the morning of the

6 25th of December, but it was delayed 'til evening and we had to wait for

7 the equipment.

8 "We had a brief meeting in the command in a school in Zenica, at

9 which I said to Comrade Patkovic, in unequivocal terms, and warned him not

10 to rely too much on the army, members of the Territorial Defence (the

11 overall number of troops, fire support, and logistics).

12 "Serif Patkovic gave me a perfect answer: 'Our task is to capture

13 certain elevations; but if the Territorial Defence betrays us, we will

14 bring the Mujahids back to reserve positions.'.

15 "Since I became involved in this action suddenly, I became

16 slightly worried about the level of equipment of the Mujahedin, and

17 immediately the Muslim Forces in Zenica gave me a warm welcome when I

18 tried to exchange some boots."

19 And just one more excerpt, where it says:

20 "We all heard our tasks, and I again pointed out to Patkovic, in

21 the name of Allah, that the TO should not betray us right at the right

22 side, and he replied to me that this would be an easy job for them."

23 Q. I want to ask you as follows. Let's just clear this up for the

24 Chamber, so that they know what we're talking about. You told us that the

25 commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade was Asim Koricic; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Serif Patkovic was the commander of the 2nd Battalion in the

3 brigade?

4 A. Yes, it's possible. I can't remember, but I know that he was one

5 of the commanders.

6 Q. And if I were to say that, at that time, Terzic was an operations

7 officer in the brigade command, would I be right?

8 A. It's possible that he was.

9 Q. Thank you. Ramo Durmis, the commander of the 1st Company,

10 describing this action of the 28th of December, 1992, says: "In a school

11 in Zenica, I told Patkovic, I said to Patkovic not to count too much on

12 the army, fearing the betrayal on the part of the Territorial Defence."

13 And in this respect, I would like to ask you: It is true, is it

14 not, that throughout 1992, members of the Bosnian Army were called the

15 Territorial Defence or just "the army"?

16 A. Yes, that's true.

17 Q. It would appear from this document that Durmis does not consider

18 himself to be a member of the Bosnian Army; although, he was in the 7th

19 Muslim Brigade. It was a brigade that was part of the army. Would you

20 draw this conclusion on the basis of this document?

21 A. Well, I can't really make any claims, but I do know that we always

22 suspected that there might be betrayal because there were Serbs and Croats

23 in the ranks, and there was definitely some mistrust. I can't really tell

24 you about how he felt at that time.

25 Q. Thank you. It's a fair-enough answer. I want to ask you the

1 following: It is quite clear that this document shows that the author, to

2 say the least, made the distinction between himself and his group and the

3 Territorial Defence; would you agree with me?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And this despite the fact that formally [Realtime transcript read

6 in error "formerly"] they were members of the 7th Brigade?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Witness, it is true that this document reflects the situation in

9 the field when it comes to these facts?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic, just a matter of precision. In fact,

12 I only see the witness nodding his head, and I suppose this means "yes."

13 But for the record, perhaps, we should ensure that you do not assume any

14 positive answers which are not clearly expressed by the witness.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we are on that, may I just ask: You said,

17 "And this despite the fact that formally they were members of the 7th

18 Brigade." By "formally" did you mean "in form," or did you mean

19 "before"? Because it's written there "formerly," meaning "before. "

20 That's line 21. And I would imagine that you meant to say "in form, they

21 were members of the ..."

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. In Bosnian, I

23 said "formally." You're right, yes.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it has got to be f-o-r-m-a-l-l-y, not m-e-r?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, "formally." That's

3 right. That they were "formally," not "formerly." Yes. I was very clear

4 about that.

5 Q. Witness, His Honour Judge Harhoff asked you to say "yes." In

6 response to my previous question, did you answer "yes"?

7 Actually, you just nodded, so your answer was not recorded in the

8 transcript.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to read a part of the document to you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please can the witness

12 be shown page 01832730, or the second page of this document.

13 I'm going to read a small part of the document, which states -- I

14 am reading from the third section, which begins with: "Some Mujahid ..."

15 I'm reading from the third section: "Some Mujahids, including

16 Arabs, moved towards Elevation 744 to the right without my order; then

17 they came down to the village and started torching. I caught up with two

18 Mujahids and informed Emir Heldic [phoen] that he and the Mujahids must

19 withdraw. However, the Arabs went even further to the right. Emir Heldic

20 and his group returned before midday; but Abu Talha [phoen], deceased,

21 with the Arabs and the Turks, remained in the depth on the right side."

22 Q. Witness, you already told us that -- you told us that Arabs also

23 took part in this battle; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, Arabs and Turks.

25 Q. So, please, you could conclude that they were at the Visegrad

1 elevation in this battle with Ramo Durmis, because it says the Mujahids

2 went, including some Arabs; was that how it was?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 Q. And that was how it actually was, wasn't it?

5 A. They were there. It's just that they wanted to go somewhere

6 independently. I don't know.

7 Q. Now I'm going to ask you this: Do you consider, first of all,

8 that this part of the report is correct? Let me put it to you line this.

9 This document says -- or the author, Ramo Durmis, says: "Arabs

10 without my command set off. I ordered them to withdraw, while they

11 actually went even further into the depths."

12 So I want to ask you the following: It's a fact that neither Abu

13 Talha nor the Arabs or Turks listened to the commands of Ramo Durmis; am I

14 right?

15 A. Well, I recall that event. Because of it, we had vast casualties.

16 Q. Thus, the Arabs had their own ways of fighting, didn't they?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honour. The document, on its face,

20 indicates, and I'm quoting: "Some Mujahids, including Arabs." And the

21 questions coming from my learned colleague seems to be focusing

22 exclusively on Arabs; whereas, the document may be referring to something

23 other than just the Arabs, and I would ask that believe clarified.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: As you clarify that, could you also clarify the

25 fact that document doesn't say "all Mujahids," but some of them, and some

1 of them may have stayed with the troops.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Please, Witness, the document says that "some Mujahids, including

4 Arabs." First of all, let me ask you, it's correct, isn't it, that there

5 were Bosniaks together with the Arabs already, that some who did not join

6 the 7th from the MOS already then had gone and joined the Arabs; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, it is, but I'm not sure about these things.

9 Q. All right, very well. It says: "Mujahids, including Arabs,

10 without my order." Do you agree -- how would you understand that?

11 You were there in the field, so I want to ask you, please: At the

12 time, in the field, did Arabs listen to the Bosnian command, whether it

13 came from the Bosnian forces or anyone else's command?

14 A. Well, let me explain. I personally was at that elevation, and the

15 order was that when we captured it, we would wait there until other units

16 came. However, the Arabs went into the depth several kilometres, four to

17 five kilometres into the depth, without waiting. They didn't wish to wait

18 there. I don't know what their reasons were.

19 All of us stayed there, as far as us Bosniaks were concerned

20 because later, because of their -- the fact that they had gone down there,

21 we were not able to hold it by ourselves. We had enormous casualties.

22 The Arabs also had casualties. Many of them were killed, too, because

23 they left.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, Witness. Thank you very

25 much.

1 Could this document be tendered as an exhibit and given a number,

2 please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it be

4 given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 121.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, please, if I were to say that it was precisely this event

10 at the Visegrad elevation was very important for future relations between

11 Arabs and Bosnians, would I be correct?

12 A. Yes. Some things became very different after that.

13 Q. We will come to that, that they became different,, Witness.

14 Witness, could you please explain that?

15 A. When we returned from the action, we had vast casualties. Perhaps

16 40 to 50 people were killed. Over 100 were wounded. They blamed the

17 officers of the BiH Army, that they had pushed us to death deliberately,

18 and then they turned even more in the sense that absolutely there was no

19 more respect towards the officers and towards the commands. And it was

20 even likely that serious consequences could occur. There was even an

21 incident and so on and so forth.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I continue?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to say something which I forgot to

24 say when we came back from the break.

25 It came to the notice of the Chamber during the break that the

1 witness complained of a headache, and I just wanted to say to him that if

2 and when he does feel tired and he feels he needs a break, he must please

3 indicate.

4 First of all, are you able to carry on, sir?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But when you feel tired or maybe you feel your

7 headache is severe and you need a break, please to indicate. Thank you.

8 You may proceed, madam.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic, before you move on, I didn't quite

10 understand the testimony of the witness when he said that they were

11 complaining when they came home to the BiH command, as I understood,

12 complaining towards their leaders about the fate that had arrived to them

13 that same day.

14 If I understand correctly, the Muslim Forces were sent out to

15 occupy the Visegrad elevation; and when they had done that, they were told

16 to wait. Some of them waited, but the Arabs proceeded and disappeared.

17 And because they were then fewer in numbers, they were, at some later

18 point, attacked by the enemy and thereby suffered great losses, and they

19 had to retreat. And when they came back, they complained to the leaders.

20 But did they -- what was the allegation that was made to the

21 leaders? They should have blamed the Arabs, shouldn't they?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems -- I don't

23 know what the matter is. It seems that -- well, actually, the most

24 important part of the witness's answer was perhaps noted and is perhaps

25 not in the transcript, and that is that the witness specifically said that

1 Arabs did not listen to the command to -- they did not listen. And that

2 actually disregarding the order they went into action, and they did not

3 listen and did not come back, and that is why there were consequences.

4 And about the second part of your question, I'm going to now

5 clarify that with the witness.

6 Q. Please, Witness, when you --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just understand clearly, too.

8 You're saying the witness said that Arabs did not listen to

9 orders. Is the witness, therefore, departing from the document? Because

10 the document doesn't say the Arabs, the document says "some Mujahids,

11 including Arabs." So one would expect that this group that went off and

12 didn't take orders would have been a group of Mujahids, which composed of

13 a mixture of Bosniaks and foreigners.

14 Now, he is now saying the Arabs only, so the Bosniaks -- is the

15 contention that only Arabs moved away, or is he confirming this document?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, please, I believe that you understood the question. Is it

18 correct that this group of Arabs, including Mujahids that were with them,

19 did not listen to the order and went there?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not a group of Arabs. It's a group of

22 Mujahids that included Arabs, according to the document. Unfortunately,

23 the document is not on the screen any longer.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the

25 witness is giving very clear answers, and I believe that it is very clear

1 that Arabs did not observe, and the Mujahids that were with them in the

2 group.

3 And I believe that that is precisely what it says in the document.

4 I really --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is not what it says in the document, madam.

6 If you put the English part up, I'll tell you. Let's just read it.

7 It says: "Some Mujahids, including Arabs," not Arabs, including

8 Mujahids. The document says: "Some Mujahids, including Arabs, moved to

9 Elevation 734."

10 Now, what I am asking you is: Is the witness saying this document

11 is wrong? It is not "some Arabs, including Mujahids." It is all the

12 Arabs, including some Mujahids? That's all I want to find out.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, could you clarify this, please?

15 A. I remember very well that all the Arabs left; the Turks and some

16 of the Bosniaks also. I don't know. As for the Arabs and the Turks, I

17 know all of them left without the order. That's how it was.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: I was just going to suggest perhaps if the witness

21 knows, if he could tell us what the term "Mujahid" means, which might help

22 clarify the situation. It's just a suggestion.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, can you please clarify that, what the term "Mujahid"

25 means?

1 A. The term "Mujahid" means the person or he who fights in the name

2 of Allah.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed, madam.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Witness, I'm now going to go back to Ramo Durmis. It's correct,

6 isn't it, that Ramo Durmis, after this incident, was in conflict with the

7 command of the units in Visoko; is this correct?

8 A. Yes. It was an armed incident.

9 Q. So it was a physical conflict?

10 A. Physical, with weapons, everything, yes.

11 Q. Witness, please, can you tell the Chamber, who did Ramo Durmis and

12 the group with him attack at that time?

13 A. I cannot definitely say by names. I know that they left and they

14 went to the command in Visoko, where there were senior officers. They

15 went with weapons. He went. There were a couple of Bosniaks with him and

16 a couple of Arabs or Turks; a few foreigners and a few Bosniaks, in any

17 case.

18 They went to the command. They began to fight some people. They

19 began to beat some people, and then they used their weapons. They fired

20 everywhere. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think that anyone was

21 actually killed, but it was quite an incident.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that after this incident, there was a

23 conflict within the 7th Muslim with Ramo Durmis?

24 A. There were problems that dragged out then, because he should not

25 have done that. He shouldn't have done it. If there were any problems in

1 the course of an action, he should have discussed what happened; whereas,

2 he went and created a problem.

3 Q. All right. Very well. And, finally, it's correct, isn't it, that

4 Ramo Durmis, in late January 1993, left the 7th Muslim. He left the 7th

5 Muslim Brigade; do you know about that?

6 A. I don't know the time period when he left. All I know is that

7 after that, he disappeared somewhere. I don't know. We were in Travnik.

8 He was actually from Zenica, and I didn't see him in Travnik anymore.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: The witness's testimony brings me back to the

11 question that I put to you, through you to the witness just a while ago.

12 I still do not understand. What was the issue at that incident?

13 And to be precise about what I'm asking, was the Command of the

14 Muslim Brigade criticised for having dispatched this force into the field

15 in a mission in which they knew that the Arabs, or perhaps somebody else,,

16 would not follow orders and thereby bring the whole operation into danger?

17 Was that the criticism that was put to the leadership?

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. First of all, Witness, did you understand the question? I would

20 like to ask you -- I have to apologise. It slipped my mind, and it was my

21 intention to ask this question. When you said that they complained, what

22 did you mean when you said that, that they complained? Who did they

23 complain to? Did they talk about it amongst themselves?

24 A. After the end of the action, there was a discussion among them,

25 and they decided that it was not all the fault of the Arabs who had gone

1 there on their own initiative, but that it was also the fault of the BH

2 Army because they had not sent us any assistance.

3 So Arabs were to blame, but the BH Army officers were also to

4 blame, even -- perhaps even more so, because they should have sent

5 assistance to us, to that line. And that is why people were more angry at

6 the BH Army command in Visoko than the Arabs.

7 Q. In other words, you did not complain to the BH Army command about

8 that, but you discussed this among yourselves?

9 A. Yes. We discussed this amongst ourselves, and then Ramo went with

10 some people. He picked up some Bosniaks and some Arabs, and he went there

11 to try and get his justice done.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry about that. You may proceed.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Your Honours, I thought that you would have some more questions.

16 Now I would like the witness to see a new document. It's D96,

17 and the number is 0180-4491. Thank you.

18 Q. This is a document originating from the 7th Muslim Brigade. The

19 date is the 19th of February, 1993.

20 Witness, I would like to ask you to look at this document. It is

21 a form that has been filled in. This would be the command personnel in

22 the 7th Muslim Brigade, and I would like to have you look at this.

23 First of all, I want to ask you whether you agree with me that

24 this document bears the date of the 19th of February, 1993.

25 A. Could you please zoom in a little bit?

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we perhaps zoom it in a

2 little bit.

3 Q. 19th of February, 1993, yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at those names? You told us

6 that you knew Fadil Hodzic; and in particular, I want to point out to you

7 the last four names. This is in light of the time, the date.

8 Do you agree that this lists the commanders of companies in the

9 1st Battalion? I would like you to look at those names first.

10 A. I know most of these people; I know Muhammad; I know Fuad.

11 Q. And it is true that at that time the commander of the 1st

12 Battalion was Fadil Hodzic; is that correct?

13 A. I don't know when he was the commander. I do know that he was,

14 but I don't know the dates.

15 Q. Fine. Could you please look at the commander of 1st Company,

16 Muhamed Basic, father's name Mustafa?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know that person?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it true that he was the company commander in that period of

21 time? Could you please tell us?

22 A. He was a commander for a while, but I don't know the exact dates.

23 Q. Fine. Could you perhaps remember approximately the time period

24 when he was the commander?

25 A. It's possible that it was in 1993, but I really can't be more

1 specific than that. I know that he was a commander for a while.

2 Q. Fine. Thank you very much. If this document suggests that

3 Muhamed Basic was the commander of the 1st Company, that means that Ramo

4 Durmis could not be the commander at that time anymore?

5 Or to rephrase the question: In mid-February 1993, Ramo Durmis

6 was no longer the commander of the 1st Company?

7 A. He left somewhere after this action. He didn't come to Travnik

8 anymore.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Your Honours, I would like to ask for this document to be given an

11 exhibit number.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: This document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 122.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And, in fact, Ramo Durmis is not the only person to have left the

19 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade at that time; is that not the

20 case?

21 A. Well, quite a few people left after this action. People left

22 left. Some of them had been commanders. Quite a few people left.

23 Q. You told us a little while ago that, after this incident, the

24 relations between the 7th and the Arabs in the field got more tense?

25 A. There were some problems.

1 Q. Is it true that these problems, at one point, culminated with the

2 physical clash in the command of the 7th Brigade sometime in the spring of

3 1993? Do you know anything about that?

4 A. I do know about this incident at Zenica, at the Command, when two

5 Arabs were killed by members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

6 Q. So two Arabs were killed at the Command of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honours, I would like the

9 witness to have a look at Exhibit 108. It was shown to him yesterday by

10 the Prosecution, and the ERN number is 0181-4777.

11 Q. Witness, I hope you remember that the Prosecutor showed you this

12 document yesterday, and we asked you about Item 1(a), (b). And in Item

13 (b), it says that additionally there are around 60 Arabs and Turks who

14 also are not included in this total.

15 Do you agree with me that this document, the way it is stated

16 here, is quite unclear?

17 A. Well, I said yesterday that I didn't know what it means.

18 Q. Let me now ask you some questions about Asim Koricic.

19 You said that he was not a trained military officer?

20 A. Yes, he was not.

21 Q. The battalion did not have military officers who would know how to

22 write a clear and proper report at that time; is that correct?

23 A. Well, people would write it any way they saw fit. The only thing

24 that was important is to have paperwork, but there were no people who were

25 experts in that, who specialised in that.

1 Q. I want to ask you, Witness, in the spring of 1993, you were in

2 this battalion. If I were to put it to you that at that time, in March

3 1993, the 15th of March, 1993, that there were no Mujahedin in the 1st

4 Battalion, or foreign fighters, am I right? Would I be right?

5 A. I don't think that there were any.

6 Q. And it is true that in the spring of 1993, once Ramo Durmis had

7 left, and even before that, but once Ramo Durmis and the group left, that

8 the ties between the Mujahedin and the 7th Muslim Brigade were cut?

9 A. Yes. Well, the situation changed quite a bit.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now I have a question to you, actually, because

11 you seem to be equating Mujahedin with foreign fighters. I'm willing to

12 go along with it. But I think that when we asked the witness just a while

13 ago about how the term "Mujahedin" was to be understood, he answered that

14 "Mujahedin" is everyone who fights in the name of Allah.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, am I right when I say that the Mujahedin in the field, at

17 the time that we're talking about now, as a concept, included foreign

18 fighters and locals who had joined them and dressed and behaved in the

19 same manner as they did? Am I right?

20 A. Yes. This term included all that.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess, Madam Vidovic, what prompted Judge

22 Harhoff's question is the fact that at page 51, I think starting from line

23 12, you said: "I want to ask you, Witness, in the spring of 1993, you

24 were in this battalion. If I were to put it to you that at that time in

25 March 1993, the 15th of March, 1993, that there were no Mujahedin in the

1 1st Battalion or foreign fighters, would I be right?"

2 I guess the question from the Judge is: Are you talking about

3 Mujahedin or are you talking about foreign fighters?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you

5 very much for this intervention. I would like to clarify this.

6 Q. Witness, did you understand my question to refer to the foreign

7 fighters and the local Mujahedin, such as Ramo Durmis and others; is that

8 the way you understood me?

9 A. Yes, that's the way I understood you.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Therefore, the answer is that by the 15th of March,

11 1993, the 1st Battalion did not include any Mujahedin, be he local or

12 foreigner?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. That is true, Witness, is it not?

15 A. Well, those terms were not used at that time.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. The terms may not have been used at that

17 time, but what was the fact, insofar as you knew the facts on the ground,

18 at that time?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't really assist you all that

20 much here, because we didn't have that much contact with them.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what then is your answer to the question put to

22 you by counsel for the Defence?

23 On the 13th of March, 1993, what was the 1st Battalion composed

24 of?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm really confused now.

1 These three or four questions that are now being put to me, I really can't

2 find my way around them at all.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I've noticed that the witness is

4 holding his head, and I will try -- he seems to be upset.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just about to ask the witness if he needed a

6 break.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Your Honour, I would

8 suggest that perhaps we might adjourn, or perhaps to finish, or to check

9 with the witness.

10 I might revisit this issue tomorrow or perhaps just to finish,,

11 because it is my impression that the witness is really in a bad shape.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to take a break at this stage?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have a headache.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do have a headache. Maybe we should take a

15 break.

16 Would you like a break or would you like to take time off for the

17 rest of the day and come back tomorrow, sir? We still have 20 minutes

18 before we knock off, but we could give you five or ten minutes' break if

19 you think that would be fine, or otherwise we could knock off for the day.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whichever way you prefer.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have that

22 many questions left for the witness tomorrow. I promise that I will

23 revisit all those issues to clarify this matter, but I think that perhaps

24 it would be better, because even before the break I noticed that the

25 witness could hardly sit. I don't see any reason why we should really

1 torture him now, because I won't be asking him that many questions.

2 I believe that I will be finished by the first break tomorrow. I

3 don't know if the Prosecution is agreeable and, of course, the Trial

4 Chamber.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's just find out what Mr. Mundis has to say. I

6 saw he was standing up.

7 MR. MUNDIS: I think the question has actually been answered. I

8 was just going to get an indication of how much more time Ms. Vidovic

9 needed for the purposes of arranging for following witnesses, what time

10 they should be brought here. But if she thinks she would be finished by

11 the first break, that answers my question, and we will certainly have

12 witnesses available at that time tomorrow.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 May I suggest we adjourn for the today now and that we reconvene

15 in Courtroom II tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

16 Court adjourned.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.26 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

19 July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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