1 Thursday, 19th July 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.
7 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
9 everybody in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Appearances for today. Prosecution.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around
15 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Aditya Menon, and our
16 case manager, Alma Imamovic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 For the Defence.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
20 morning to my colleagues in the courtroom. My name is Vasvija Vidovic,
21 and together with Mr. Nicholas Robson, I represent General Delic.
22 Together with us are our legal assistants, Lana Deljkic and Asja Zujo.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Yes, Madam. Can I just warn the witness first?
25 Witness, good morning to you, too. Do you feel better today?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I feel better.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
3 You may be aware of it, but I must warn you, as it is my duty,
4 that you are bound still by the declaration you made at the beginning of
5 your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but
6 the truth. Okay?
7 Thank you very much.
8 Madam Vidovic.
9 WITNESS: PW-2 [Resumed]
10 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Witness.
12 Yesterday we discussed some documents of the 7th Muslim Brigade,
13 and I would like us to continue today.
14 I will be clarifying some concepts later on. I believe that the
15 witness might assist us here, some concepts that we discussed yesterday.
16 I would like to show --
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at
18 D47. Thank you. Could we perhaps move the document slightly to the left.
19 Yes. Thank you.
20 Q. The date on this document is the 23rd of December, 1993. Witness,
21 let me read just a very small excerpt from this document that relates to
22 criminal activities of Sabahet Isakovic, and it says in this document:
23 "Today, on the 16th of July, 1993, according to the information from
24 several sources, he probably hid the gun belonging to a foreign citizen
25 who had attempted to assassinate Emir Mahmut Efendija Karalic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm reading from the
2 beginning of the 2nd paragraph in this document.
3 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you, first of all, do you know the
4 Sabahet Isakovic? Have you heard of this person at all?
5 A. It's possible that I have.
6 Q. But you're not sure?
7 A. I'm not sure.
8 Q. The document tells us that a foreign national tried to assassinate
9 Emir Mahmut Efendija Karalic. Did you know about this incident? Have you
10 heard about it at all?
11 A. I know about an incident in which two foreign nationals allegedly
12 tried to assassinate Karalic, and both were killed by the military police.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this
15 document to be given an exhibit number.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
17 please be given an exhibit number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 123.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Vidovic, I'm unsure about the meaning of this
21 document. What is it you wish to prove or what information do you wish
22 the Chamber to elicit from this document?
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday we discussed
24 the relations between the foreigners and the 7th Muslim Brigade. The
25 indictment considers foreign fighters as members of the 7th Muslim
1 Brigade, and I want the witness to comment on the actual relations between
2 the troops of the 7th Muslim Brigade and the foreign fighters.
3 This document, in my belief, speaks to it, when taken with the
4 other documents that we have exhibited and ones that we intend to tender.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: This seems, on the face of it, to be a document
6 belonging to the investigation against a Sabahet Isakovic.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Isakovic, yes.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. And in the course of this investigation, the
9 attempted assassination of Emir Mahmut Efendija Karalic is mentioned, and
10 it is mentioned in relation to the attempt being carried out by a foreign
11 citizen. Now, that may very well be one of the Arabs, if we should call
12 it this, I suspect this is what you have in mind, but it doesn't say so.
13 This is a foreign citizen. It could be anyone. So how do you relate this
14 document to the relationship between the Arabs and the 7th Muslim Brigade?
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document says
16 that Sabahet Isakovic hid the gun, and that is why the gun that was used
17 in this assassination attempt. And that is why I asked the witness
18 whether he knew about this incident, and the witness said, "I do. Two
19 Arabs tried to kill Efendija Mahmut Karalic."
20 Q. Am I right, Witness, did I understand you correctly?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is why I showed this to the
23 witness, precisely, because I wanted to clarify this dilemma that you just
24 presented to us, Your Honour.
25 Q. And to clarify the situation further, Witness, let me ask you:
1 You told us that this incident was widely known?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Deal with the question by the Judge
4 before you go back to the witness, and let's get done with that. I don't
5 know whether the Judge is satisfied with your answer, Madam Vidovic.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Not quite, because I have understood thus far
7 that, indeed, it could be Arabs who are involved in this. But the next
8 thing I read in the document is that this is an attempted murder or
9 assassination that has to do with some money that one borrowed from the
10 other and the selling of a gun and something else, and that doesn't seem
11 to me to be of any particular interest, other than this is petty crime.
12 It doesn't speak to any differences between the suspects and
13 Mr. Karalic that would clarify the situation on political or religious
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I explain? That
16 is why it is sometimes a bad idea to read just small parts of the
17 document. Let me read this: "According to the information from several
18 sources, on 16th of July, 1993, he probably hid the gun belonging to the
19 foreign citizen who had attempted to assassinate the Emir Mahmut Efendija
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: We have read the document --
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I beg you for your
23 indulgence. I have to read the sentence that follows, because otherwise I
24 can't explain to you what this document is all about. Could I ask you for
25 your permission to read the next sentence.
1 "In the meantime, he borrowed 750 DM from the brigade, which he
2 has not paid back to this day."
3 So, on the one hand, this document says that on the 16th of July,
4 he hid the pistol that was involved in this attempted assassination, and
5 he also borrowed 750 DM from the brigade. These are two acts that are
6 discussed in this document, the way I see it.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: And?
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And my question to the witness that
9 relates to the assassination attempt on Mahmut Efendija Karalic is:
10 Q. Did you hear about the foreign nationals attempting to kill
11 Mahmut, "Efendi," Karalic? And when I say "foreign nationals," I mean
12 specifically Arabs. Did they try to assassinate him?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you don't, in the process of
14 answering a question from the Bench, go back to the witness. Deal with
15 the Judge, finish with the Judge, and let the Judge satisfy himself that
16 you have answered to his satisfaction, and then you can go to the witness.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise, because I don't want to bring trouble
20 to you, but I thought that what you wanted to prove here was a problematic
21 relationship between the Arabs and the 7th Muslim Brigade, and perhaps
22 some of the other members of the El Mujahedin, and those differences would
23 be based on political, religious, moral grounds. And if that were the
24 point, I would understand you, because that would be in your interest to
25 show that there were severe religious and political and moral differences
1 between these groups.
2 Now, what you bring to me here is, to me, something that looks as
3 simple petty crime. That would not, in my mind, bring much testimony to
4 those religious differences, and that is why I asked about what is the
5 meaning of this document.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 I thought that this document spoke to the relation between Arabs
8 and the 7th Brigade, but I will withdraw this document, Your Honour, and I
9 will move on.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would need some other
11 clarification with regard to this whole episode that this document refers
12 to, and, of course, in relation to your cross-examination, Mrs. Vidovic.
13 Witness, I would like you to clear up something for us. You said
14 yesterday, I believe, during the cross-examination, that the military
15 police had no control over your units because general disorder and chaos
16 reigned at the time. So with regard to this episode that you seem to be
17 somewhat familiar with, at least, the military police -- was the police
18 active, in fact, despite what you said?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About this incident that did happen,
20 Mahmut Efendija Karalic had his bodyguards. They were members of the
21 military police. They were there to guard him. His security detail, they
22 were with him. The two Arabs, one or two, tried to kill the efendi, and
23 the police killed two Arabs protecting the efendi. So the police,
24 actually they guarded Efendija Karalic.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And just one other thing. If I
1 understand your answer correctly, the military police, rather than really
2 controlling the situation and ensuring order in general, and the
3 protection of all citizens, was ensuring the protection of certain
4 particular individuals?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the military police, part
6 of the 7th Muslim Brigade, and Karalic had fears for his safety. And for
7 that reason, he had to have guards.
8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, if it was possible to
9 have bodyguards for the protection of particular individuals, would you
10 say that it was also possible to guarantee public order and, therefore,
11 also the possibility to carry out investigations, to punish the behaviour
12 of members of the military detachments, for example?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mahmut Efendija Karalic was
14 the emir of the 7th Muslim Brigade, and he was entitled to this exclusive
15 right to protection. And as for establishing order in other ways, the
16 situation was not good. There were not enough forces to establish order.
17 But he was the emir of the brigade, and he had this privilege.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, we've got to decide the fate of this
20 document before you proceed. You have read extensively from it, virtually
21 everything. Do you still need it admitted into evidence, when you have
22 read it all into the evidence?
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this time, I will
24 be withdrawing this document, and I will find some other way. Perhaps I
25 could call the author of this document and have him explain about it.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
3 Q. I will now go back to some issues -- small issues that we were
4 discussing yesterday, and I would like to ask you to clarify those issues
5 so that the Chamber gets a clearer picture of some of the terms that we
6 have been using here.
7 In your evidence yesterday, you said that the Mujahedin were
8 fighters on Allah's path; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Some people call these men "Mujahids" and some call them
11 "Mujahedin"; am I right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So it is one and the same category of people; am I right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This term was used by the people to designate foreign fighters,
16 but also the locals who had joined them; am I right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All the foreign fighters, the Mujahedin, were not of African or
19 Asian background; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Among them, there were Muslims from Europe, Turks, who looked more
22 or less the same as the Bosnian fighters; am I right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Members of the 7th Muslim Brigade often wore beards, and sometimes
25 they dressed like the foreign fighters as Mujahedin in the field; am I
2 A. Yes. There were many members of the 7th Muslim Brigade who wore
3 long beards. There were quite a few of them.
4 Q. It is true, is it not, that members of the 7th Brigade were often
5 mistaken for foreign fighters because of the way they looked?
6 A. Yes, certainly.
7 Q. Even the members of other units of the Army of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina who didn't know them personally would mistake them in this
9 manner; is that correct?
10 A. Well, they looked the same. I can't -- well, yeah, that would be
12 Q. Thank you. Witness, in 1992 and 1993, you lived in Central
13 Bosnia. It is true, is it not, that the Croatian media, radio/TV, would
14 confuse the Muslimanske Snage, the 7th Muslim Brigade, the Mujahedin, and
15 they would use the term "Muslimanske Snage," "Muslim Forces," to designate
16 all of those?
17 A. Well, when I was captured by the HVO, I know that they used
18 different terms for all -- all of them: MOS, Muslimanske Snage, the
19 Mujahedin. They used those terms generally.
20 Q. They considered -- or rather, let me rephrase the question. The
21 BH Army was identified both with Muslimanske Snage and the Mujahedin; am I
23 A. Well, they called all of us "the Mujahedin." They called us
24 "Turks." They used all kinds of names. When I was captured, I heard
25 from some HVO members who were in prison for some other offences, I heard
1 what they were talking about, about what happened on the lines, that the
2 Mujahedin were attacking from all sides.
3 Q. When you say "all of us," do you refer to the Muslim population or
4 the Muslim fighters?
5 A. The entire BH Army. They called us "the Mujahedin," "the Turks,"
6 or some other names also.
7 Q. Thank you. In your evidence yesterday, you said - and you
8 confirmed several times - that in Central Bosnia there was chaos. And I
9 would now like to show you a document that I believe to be relevant.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
12 Q. Witness, could you look at this document?
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And for the record, I would like to
14 say that this is a document originating from the 7th Muslim Brigade, dated
15 the 30th of May, 1993, and the heading is "Reply to the 3rd Corps
16 Command's Order" of the 27th of May, 1993.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me, ma'am. Did you say this document is
18 dated the 30th of May? That's what the transcript says.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That's what I said. I
20 don't know what's recorded. The 30th of May, yes. Yes. Let me just
21 clear this up to avoid any confusion.
22 We have a stamp here that bears the date of the 30th of May, and
23 then the title is "Reply to the 3rd Corps Command's Order," dated the 27th
24 of May 1993. So we have two different dates. Was that the thrust of
25 your question?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am. My understanding of that document and
2 those two dates is that the document is dated the 27th of May and not the
3 30th, but it was received by the 7th Mountain Brigade on the 30th, hence
4 the stamp. That's the stamp for date of receipt, I would imagine.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the date of the document is the 27th, coming
7 from whoever it comes from.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. The document quite clearly
9 shows that this is a reference. It is a reply to an order that was issued
10 by the Corps Command on the 27th of May, 1993; and since it is signed by
11 Asim Koricic --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It really
14 assists us when we can clarify things.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, let me quote. This is a very brief document, and I will
18 say what it says here: "We are unable to obey Item 6 of your order,
19 strictly confidential number 02/33-1281, of the 27th of May, 1993, because
20 we do not have the insignia showing or belonging to the unit. We did not
21 get these and so the process of marking has not even begun. I am
22 addressing this letter to you in order to prevent unnecessary occurrences
23 during the inspection of V/O, who are members of this unit, and to request
24 that this unit be given the prescribed insignia."
25 And before I move on to my question, I want to just ask you one
1 thing. "V/O" can refer to the term of military conscripts; am I right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is a document that bears the date on the stamp the 30th of
4 May, 1993. On the face of it, we could conclude that on that date, the
5 7th Muslim Brigade did not have the proper insignia on that date. You
6 were there at the time. You worked there at the time. It is true, is it
7 not, that you did not have the insignia at that time?
8 A. The 7th Brigade insignia came in only later. At that time, we
9 wore all kinds of insignia, some of Muslimanske Snage, and some people
10 didn't have any insignia at all.
11 Q. In other words, this document contains information that is
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Let me now ask you another question. In our language, we call --
15 we use the term "amblemi" that indicate insignia of membership of a unit.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. They are worn visibly attached to the sleeve of the uniform?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document to be
20 given an exhibit number.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, has this document been
23 given an exhibit number?
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Not yet, because we are, before we will admit it,
25 discussing the probative value of the document. And I have, again, some
1 reservations, because I'm not sure of exactly what it is you wish to prove
2 with this document. I would imagine that your point of wishing to admit
3 it is that it shows that there was no order, no system, in the 7th Muslim
4 Brigade. They were running around, all of them, with either different or
5 no insignia at all, and that you wish the Chamber to extract the
6 information from this document that here you can see or here we can see
7 that it was all a mess.
8 I would be willing to go along with it, but the fact that for some
9 time there were not enough insignia to put on everybody's uniform is, to
10 me, not necessarily a sign of disorder. That could happen to, I guess,
11 most military forces during an armed conflict.
12 But I would ask you really to explain to us why you are admitting
13 this -- seeking to admit this document.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to prove that
15 on the 30th of May, 1992 [as interpreted], the process of putting insignia
16 showing belonging to the 7th Muslim Brigade had not even started. This is
17 highly relevant in these criminal proceedings because there will be
18 witnesses testifying about the participation of men in battles, and it is
19 very relevant to establish whether they were wearing insignia or not.
20 I think this document shows clearly that they did not receive
21 their insignia and that this process had not even started.
22 Your Honours, I understood that, at this point, the admissibility
23 of documents is being evaluated; whereas, the probative value will be
24 assessed as part of the whole collection of exhibits and testimonies. I
25 feel that this document is highly relevant because it shows that on the
1 30th of May, several days before the event in Maline, the process of
2 putting insignia on the men of the 7th Muslim Brigade had not even begun;
3 whereas, it is members of that brigade who are suspected of having
4 committed these crimes.
5 Have I been sufficiently clear for Your Honour?
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: You have indeed, and your explanation now makes
7 all the difference to me. I'm very happy now, because now I understand
8 what it is you want. And I would like you, in the future - and also the
9 Prosecution - to explain to us what you wish to prove here, because
10 otherwise the Chamber is left in the dark. You may have understood it all
11 because you have a plan for your Defence, but you need to show it to us
12 and help and assist the Chamber.
13 I would be in favour of admitting it, but let me consult with my
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mine is a procedural problem, ma'am, and I know we
17 have not yet adopted the guidelines on presentation of evidence, but the
18 point I'm going to raise has not been even commented upon by the parties,
19 because I think I assume they accept the point; namely, that where you
20 have read extensively from a document, it just burdens the record to even
21 go ahead and admit the document again.
22 Now, this is a very short document and you read it in its
23 entirety. Do you still need the document to go in? The contents of the
24 document are already on the transcript.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is necessary. This
1 document consists of two sentences, literally two sentences. I think that
2 at the end of the trial, the transcript will be much clearer, as will the
3 exhibits, if certain relevant parts of documents are in the transcript. I
4 will not be doing this with long documents, Your Honours. We will be
5 using documents of 200 pages or so. I will be quoting small extracts and
6 seeking to admit only those, or rather, to have only those in the
7 transcript. But this is a very short document, which is why I quoted it.
8 Your Honours, if I do not quote the document, it is very hard to
9 understand what we are talking about here.
10 Your Honours, I will be very happy to explain the purpose every
11 time, but this will lengthen the proceedings, and it will prolong the time
12 of cross-examination, which is why I don't go into explanations of
14 So I'm seeking instructions from Your Honours. If I have to
15 explain every time, of course, I will try to explain the purpose of each
16 document, but -- I see my learned friend is on his feet.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 The Prosecution expresses its support for the idea that Judge
20 Harhoff has explained, but, again, I think I also share some concerns that
21 my learned colleague from the Defence has with respect to the amount of
22 time that might be required for some of the documents.
23 We also have a bit of a concern about the procedure of explaining
24 the relevance or probative value of documents in the presence of witnesses
25 as these issues arise. And, of course, in order to excuse the witness,
1 again, eats up additional time, which is, of course, a very precious
3 I'm not sure how we can get out of this dilemma. I do understand
4 the need for the Judges to understand precisely what the relevance and
5 probative value of the documents are. And in that respect, I do reiterate
6 what the Prosecution has said previously, that in 7(3) cases, particularly
7 this case, it's primarily a circumstantial case. And a large number of
8 documents that might at first glance -- which are both Prosecution and
9 Defence documents, may not at first glance appear to be probative or to
10 have a high degree of relevance, may through later witnesses or through
11 later documentary evidence gain in probative value and relevance as all
12 the evidence comes in.
13 The only other point I would simply make is that I believe on page
14 15, line 5, there's an error in the transcript where at least the English
15 version, Mrs. Vidovic refers to the date of the document on the screen as
16 being 30 May 1992, and perhaps that's either a translation error or
17 perhaps she misspoke. Of course, this document is 30 May 1993.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
20 I thought that the issue that Judge Harhoff had raised had been
21 resolved, that we were now dealing with the issue that I was raising, and
22 you didn't comment on what I said.
23 Now, let me say this to you, then, Madam Vidovic. We will now
24 admit this document, but can I ask you, please, in the future, if a
25 document is this short, you can ask the witness to look at it. We can
1 look at it ourselves, read it, and then put your questions. Don't read
2 the document and then ask the document to be put into evidence when it is
3 so short.
4 I can understand if it is a long document, that are you going to
5 focus the witness's attention to a specific part and you want to quote
6 that part. That I understand.
7 So do you think that guideline would help? Thank you very much.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
11 exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 123.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: 123?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The previous document was
15 withdrawn and struck from the record.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 123.
17 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness now
19 be shown document D41. And for the record, until the document appears on
20 the screen, this is a document issued by the Command of the 3rd Corps, the
21 Security Sector, and it is dated the 12th of September, 1993.
22 Your Honours, the copy was very bad, which is why we ask -- we ask
23 for you to see the document.
24 Q. Witness, I think you have the document before you, and I will ask
25 you to read the document, in view of Their Honours' instructions.
1 The document shows that information was obtained that certain
2 persons were using their military booklets as identification documents,
3 and there's evidence of engagement in certain tasks. And the most
4 frequent cause of this problem is the irresponsibility of certain organs,
5 and that there is information that fictitious documents were being issued
6 without the proper basis.
7 Is that what the document says, Witness?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I won't quote from the document any further, but please try to go
10 back in your mind to the year 1993, because I want to ask you questions
11 about facts following from this document.
12 While you were a member of the 7th Muslim, is it correct that
13 people in the field used these military booklets to sell on the black
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. Did you say to sell the booklets on
16 the black market?
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Your Honour.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that there were certain
19 abuses of military booklets. I know that some people sold their military
20 booklets. Everybody had to be mobilised. People who did not want to go
21 to the front lines, to the defence lines, and who didn't want to join any
22 unit tried in every possible way to obtain these booklets. I was near
23 Travnik, and these were people from the town of Travnik, the ones that I
24 knew of.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. And the purpose of buying such booklets was to have a booklet to
2 show if there were any checks?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Either by the military police or the civil police; am I correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You read this document?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Does it reflect the actual situation on the ground?
9 A. Yes, that's what it was like.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document be
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 124.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I'll move on to another topic.
18 Witness, yesterday, you told us that, at a certain point in time,
19 you joined a group of Arabs, and now I want to ask you the following: In
20 mid-August 1993, approximately, you learned that there had been an
21 agreement between the detachment and the army that it was to enter into
22 the army establishment; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I want to ask you the following in connection with this: It's
25 correct, is it not, that groups of Arabs from Mehurici and Poljanice
1 entered the detachment?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It's also correct, is it not, that El Mujahedin was made up of
4 these groups?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it's also correct, is it not, that in a certain area of
7 Central Bosnia, which was not very large, there were several groups of
8 Arabs; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. For example, the Turkish group in Arnauti?
11 A. Yes. Well, excuse me. I don't know where the Turkish group was,
12 but in the areas of Travnik and Zenica I know there were quite a few
13 groups. But I can't tell you where each one was located exactly.
14 Q. All right. Have you heard of the group at Bistricak?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In Zeljezno Polje?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It's correct, is it not, that these groups had nothing in common
19 with El Mujahedin?
20 A. No, they didn't. These were separate groups. I don't know
21 whether they had any contact at all.
22 Q. Do you have any knowledge of whether these groups acted
23 independently or whether they were under someone's control?
24 A. As far as I know, these were independent groups. They would join
25 in some actions, but for the most part they were completely independent in
1 their activities.
2 Q. And now I'll go back to the detachment. The detachment had its
3 emir? You said that more than once.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell Their Honours, if you know, what a shura is?
6 A. A shura is a kind of religious council or body which made
7 decisions on certain matters. They could decide what should be done by a
9 Q. When you say" religious body," and when you say that they could
10 make decisions as to what a unit could do, could you please clarify this
11 for Their Honours? Would I be correct in saying that the shura was the
12 supreme commanding body?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In other words, it was the supreme commanding body?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it was based on a religious foundation?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You were probably not present at meetings of the shura, but you
19 would know the following: The decisions of the shura were binding on
20 members of the detachment; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Witness, in your testimony, you described participating in some
23 battles together with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would I be right in reaching the following conclusion: Regardless
1 of the fact that the detachment had been established as a unit of the
2 army, it's true that its shura and emir continued making decisions as to
3 whether the detachment would go into action or not?
4 A. That's correct.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Thank you.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The army could only discuss cooperation with the shura; do you
8 know that?
9 A. I don't know. I don't know any details about that.
10 Q. Regarding the activities of the detachment, it was the emir and
11 the shura who decided. You told us that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. People did not go into certain battles if the shura said "No"; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know, for example, that the detachment did not go to fight
17 around Buhine Kuce? Have you heard about that?
18 A. I can't remember the area correctly, but I know there were such
20 Q. It would be fair to say, would it not, that assessments of the
21 situation were made in the detachment as to whether to go into action or
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I will now put a proposition to you. If the shura decided that
25 the detachment should not go into a certain battle with the army - and you
1 said there was such cases - not even the late President Izetbegovic could
2 have issued a different order; am I correct in assuming that?
3 A. I know that it was the shura that issued these decisions. I can't
4 go into details, but it's certain that the shura could decide differently.
5 But I'm not aware of the details. The shura, if they felt the detachment
6 should not go, they could make that decision. They could make a different
8 Q. Thank you. When testifying about the participation of the El
9 Mujahedin Detachment at Kruscica, in fighting with the army, you said that
10 you knew that El Mujahedin participated in the fighting. But I want to
11 suggest to you the following: It's correct, is it not, that at that time,
12 during the fighting at Kruscica, there was a very serious incident, almost
13 a clash, between the El Mujahedin Detachment and the armija, the army.
14 And I will ask you the following: Before your arrest, a fighter of the
15 Krajiska Brigade was arrested for being drunk by members of the
16 detachment; do you remember that?
17 A. Yes. I remember that situation very well.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be
19 shown document D37 in connection with this.
20 Q. Witness, when the document shows up on your monitor, please read
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could the usher zoom in, please,
23 and show the document in its entirety.
24 This document is entitled -- or rather, it's a document of the
25 Glorious 17th Krajina Mountain Brigade, and it's dated the 25th of
1 October, 1993.
2 Q. You mentioned yesterday that the Glorious 17th was at Kruscica, I
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes. Yes, it is. But if I can clarify, I heard about the
7 situation from members of the detachment. I didn't see it myself, so I
8 don't know precisely what happened, but they explained to me what happened
9 after some time. I don't know exactly how much time had elapsed, and then
10 I will say something about it later on.
11 Q. Yes. So I understand that you know about the capture of a
12 fighter. It says here of the Mixed Artillery Division of the Glorious
13 17th, Amir --
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last name.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. -- Kuduzovic?
17 A. Yes, I heard about that.
18 Q. In the document, if you've read it, it says that the army
19 endeavoured to get its fighter back and to have him released, but quite
20 simply they were rejected quite roughly, and they were made to leave the
21 El Mujahedin camp in quite a rude manner.
22 So I will ask you the following: You are not surprised, are you,
23 by this attitude of the detachment towards the members of the armija who
24 came to fetch their fighter who had been arrested by the El Mujahedin?
25 A. I'm not surprised because the Arabs were very upset by the fact
1 that the man had been drinking alcohol. They had methods of their own.
2 There were other incidents, also, besides this one.
3 Q. So this BH Army soldier was arrested solely because he had been
5 A. Yes. The man came there. He was not in the best of states, and
6 he asked for some alcohol; and then they took him in purportedly to give
7 him some alcohol.
8 Q. It is true, is it not, that this soldier was not released when the
9 BH Army intervened, but only when Mufti Abdibegovic intervened and the
10 incident died down after that?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be
13 admitted into evidence.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
15 please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 125.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I will go back to the detachment itself. The Prosecutor showed
20 you some photographs, and you were able to identify some members of the
22 I would like to ask you, you knew Imad Al Mesri; did you not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you please tell the Judges who he was, what his role was in
25 the detachment?
1 A. Well, he was also some kind of a religious representative. He ran
2 the religious school. He was some kind of a religious leader.
3 Q. A religious leader. So we're talking about Imad Al Mesri, to make
4 the transcript quite clear. You were at his lectures?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that he considered Corps members to be
7 infidels and enemies of the faith?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I would like to
10 show document D92 to the witness. It is an excerpt from a book by Evan
11 Kohlmann, pages 118 and 119 in the English. That would be page 54 [as
12 interpreted] In the B/C/S translation. I will be quoting from just a
13 little excerpt from this book.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Page 154 in the B/C/S
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could just zoom in a
17 little bit. The part is important for me. Could you please look at this
18 document while we're waiting for the English version.
19 Q. Could you please look at this part where it says: "Among the
20 textbooks used in this school was an essay ..."
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have the English version.
22 Okay. Thank you very much.
23 This is the last paragraph in the English version at the very
24 bottom of this page, Your Honours, the one that I'm interested in.
25 Q. If you have read this part, Witness, it says here that Imad Al
1 Mesri, also known as Amad el-Masri. It says here that he was known for
2 his regular instructions and lectures on the Islam. The book that was
3 distributed by the Kuwaitis condemned the kuffar, the infidels, and their
4 various attempts at self-government.
5 You told us something about Imad Al Mesri. You said that he was a
6 religious leader. Does this reflect what you actually told us?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So Imad Al Mesri criticised the infidels?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you please tell the Judges, to your knowledge, how long was
11 Imad Al Mesri in the detachment?
12 A. I think he was there until the end of the war.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I would
14 like this document to be admitted into evidence.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It will be admitted into evidence. May it be given
16 an exhibit number? Just this page, Madam?
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour, just this
18 page, and its translation.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 118 of the translation. I don't know what the
20 page number is on the -- 154 of the B/C/S.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And the -- we have two pages in
22 English and one page in Bosnian.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: While I'm speaking, may I ask that when the witness
24 is speaking, could we please switch off our mics, because otherwise it
25 affects the voice distortion. So you'll have to ask questions, then
1 switch on and off. Thank you very much. I know you've been doing that,
2 but at times we forget.
3 You may proceed.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We apologise.
5 Now I would like the witness to be shown document D29.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt. The
7 previous exhibit, the Exhibit number will be 126.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 126.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So, Your Honour, I ask that the
10 witness be shown document D29. And for the record, this is a document
11 from the Command of the 3rd Corps in Zenica, the Security Sector, dated
12 the 28th of November, 1993, that is entitled "Report on the Activities of
13 Foreigners from Arab Countries in the Area of Responsibility of the 3rd
15 Q. Witness, this is a long document, and I will be quoting just a
16 very brief portion, in light of the length of this document. I will be
17 quoting from the first paragraph, part of the first paragraph, where it
19 "In contact with a colleague during the preparation in these days,
20 we came by photocopies of letters addressed to Saudi Arabia, to Ebu Ahmed
21 and Ebu D'Asira. In this letter sent to Saudi Arabia, a certain Imad, a
22 fighter of the El Mujahedin Unit, informs Ebu Ahmed and Ebu D'Asira about
23 the situation in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and states: 'I
24 inform you that a difficult phase has started for us because there are
25 many enemies, Communists. However, this phase represents a new phase of
1 improvement in the road we follow. We are now one detachment. We have
2 our own body, which is formally under the control of the army, but it
3 cannot order us to engage in actions against our will. To the contrary,
4 we set plans for them because they have little experience.'"
5 Now, Witness, I want to ask you something about this. You told us
6 that you knew a person by the name of Imad in the El Mujahedin Unit; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you agreed that he considered Communists the enemies of the
10 faith; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in order for the Trial Chamber to understand what it is that
13 we're talking about, it is true, is it not, that both the Arabs and the
14 Muslims close to the religious circles considered former JNA officers to
15 be Communists?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. They also considered many of the politicians in Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina to be Communists, the official authorities of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina; am I right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you agree with me, having heard this short quote, that Imad,
22 in this letter, paints an accurate picture of the relationship between the
23 El Mujahedin Unit and the army when he says: "We are now one detachment.
24 We have our own body, which is formally under the army, but the army
25 cannot order us to engage in actions against our will." Does this reflect
1 the actual relations in the field?
2 A. Let me clarify this a little bit.
3 The Arabs, in fact, ran the detachment. We Bosniaks were not so
4 well represented in this cadre. They could make decisions, and I can't
5 say some things with certainty, but, yes, that's what they did. So they
6 could decide otherwise, as I have already said.
7 Q. In other words, am I right, did I understand you correctly that
8 you consider that this document reflects the accurate information?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I get an
11 exhibit number for this document.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 127.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be asking you only two or
17 three questions before our break.
18 Q. It is true, is it not, that the detachment, throughout its
19 existence, refused to wear the BH Army insignia? What I mean, I refer to
20 the fleur-de-lys symbol.
21 A. Well, the Command Staff and the Arabs, they didn't want to wear
22 them, but some Bosniaks who had perhaps brought them over from their
23 original units, they may have worn them. But they were not generally
25 Q. The record says that "they were not generally worn," but what you
1 actually said is they were not worn officially?
2 A. Yes, that's right. They were not worn. Some people may have --
3 I'm talking now about the Bosniaks, because Arabs did not wear any
5 Q. Thank you. Just one more question.
6 The detachment refused to fight under the Bosnia and Herzegovina
7 flag, and it had the fleur-de-lys symbol on it?
8 A. Well, there was no such flag in the barracks, and it was not
9 carried into action.
10 Q. Let me just ask you to look at a brief video. It is D3.
11 Do you see this, Witness? Can you see it on your screen?
12 A. [No verbal response]
13 [Video played]
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Am I right -- can you see it now?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Am I right when I say that the detachment fought under this flag
18 in all its combat activities?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now stop with my questions,
21 and I would just like to tender this video into evidence. We're only
22 interested in this part where this flag is seen.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The clip from this video is admitted into evidence.
24 May it please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 128.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand that it
3 is now time for our break.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is indeed.
5 Court adjourned, and come back at quarter to.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, yesterday, you had said you'd take
9 the first session. How much longer are you going to be still?
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe maybe 15
11 minutes, not more. Of course, I didn't expect this lengthy discussion
12 about the documents, but I've done my best to cut down the number of
13 questions. So no more than 15 minutes, I'm sure of it.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness
16 Exhibit 109.
17 Q. Witness, could you please look at the page 1 of this document. It
18 is a document from the Zenica Security Services Centre in Zenica, the
19 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of Interior. It is sent to
20 the Secretariat of the Interior.
21 This document was shown to you by the Prosecutor yesterday, and I
22 would just like to ask you to look at what is here in this document.
23 A. I've read it.
24 Q. You will agree with me that this document refers to the rules on
25 keeping the record, the registration and de-registration of place of
1 residence of foreign citizens; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And would you agree with me that it says here in this document
4 that on the 11th of October, 1994, all the legal requirements have not
5 been met?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I would then conclude that on the 11th of October, 1994, the
8 Secretariat of National Defence in Zenica did not have the relevant data
9 about foreign nationals. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You were in the detachment. You know that the foreign nationals
12 did not want to provide their personal details to anyone, not even to you
13 in the detachment?
14 A. Yes. None of us Bosniaks knew their real names. And as for the
15 documents, they handed them over to an Arab man in the Command.
16 Q. If I were to conclude that this was Abu Isa, would I be correct?
17 A. Yes, that was Abu Isa. I know him. All the documents were handed
18 over to him, but we didn't know the real names and we didn't really have
19 any contacts with either their documents or their real names.
20 Q. Witness, am I right when I say that Abu Isa is related to Sheikh
21 Enver, whom you mentioned?
22 A. I think that Abu Isa's sister was the wife of the deceased Sheikh
24 Q. I will now be asking you some questions about Sheikh Enver.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This document can be put away.
1 This is a document that is already an exhibit.
2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I have a question.
3 Before you ask your next question, Ms. Vidovic, I would like you
4 to clarify a point for me, or rather, I would like to ask the witness to
5 clarify this point.
6 Sir, I am talking to you. You've said that no one amongst the
7 Bosnians knew the names, the real names of these foreigners. You also
8 said that these people gave their name to the command post in Arabic.
9 Does this mean that the authorities, that the Command knew who they were,
10 knew their real names, and knew that they were actually members of various
11 units in which they were fighting?
12 Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may before the
14 witness answers this question. It's either a problem with the record, the
15 transcript, or perhaps I misunderstood what the witness said. The witness
16 said that they gave their names to Abu Isa, not to the Command.
17 Q. Am I right, Witness?
18 A. They all gave their documents to Abu Isa.
19 Q. Abu Isa, to your knowledge, did he give those documents to the
20 Superior Command, let's say the BH Army Command? Do you have an knowledge
21 of that?
22 A. I don't know about that. I know that they concealed their
23 identity. We didn't know their real names, and Abu Isa held all those
25 Q. Thank you. I will now go back to Sheikh Enver.
1 It is true, is it not, that he was a missionary?
2 A. Yes, as a religious leader.
3 Q. He was an Egyptian?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you agree that he came to Bosnia and Herzegovina from Italy?
6 A. I know that he came from Italy.
7 Q. And it is true that he came to Bosnia and Herzegovina in late
8 1994, not before that; am I right?
9 A. Late 1994 or early 1995. I'm not quite sure, but --
10 Q. So late 1994 or early 1995?
11 A. Yes, but it's possible that it's late 1994. I can't really
13 Q. Fine. If someone were to say that he was a member of the
14 detachment from May 1995 -- I do apologise. If someone were to claim --
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I just
16 want to correct my question.
17 Q. If someone were to claim that he was a member of the detachment
18 from May 1993, would that be correct?
19 A. He showed up in late 1994. I don't think that he was there before
21 Q. So until that time, from the time when you joined the detachment
22 until the end of 1994, he did not show up in the detachment; am I right?
23 A. I think that he didn't.
24 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you just a few more questions.
25 Yesterday, you told us that several different groups had been
1 operating in Bosnia-Herzegovina - I mean, groups of Arabs - in 1995 as
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Abu Zubeir [Realtime transcript read in error "Zubaida"] Group,
5 does that name mean anything to you?
6 A. I have heard about Abu Zubeir, and I knew that he had a group.
7 Q. Abu Zubeir?
8 A. Yes, Abu Zubeir.
9 Q. I want to make one thing clear, I'm talking about "Abu Zubeir,"
10 not "Abu Zubaida." These are two different persons.
11 Witness, the Abu Zubeir Group, am I correct when I think that this
12 group had -- was not on friendly terms with the El Mujahedin Detachment at
14 A. There were some problems, yes. They were separate. He was
15 independent, and I know that they didn't come to the detachment at all.
16 They may have even been prohibited from coming to the detachment, but I
17 can't remember all the details.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to show to the
20 witness Exhibit 115. It's the personal records, Exhibit 115. And I
21 believe, Your Honours, that this is a document under seal, so I don't know
22 if we want to go into this document. I'm not going to be mentioning the
23 witness's name. I just wanted to point out that this is a document that's
24 been admitted under seal.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
1 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The HOS is the Croatian Defence
17 Q. Is that correct, Witness?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are different from the HVO?
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] They are different from the HVO,
21 yes, Your Honour. They operated independently both of the Army of Bosnia
22 and Herzegovina and of the HVO.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Were they a BiH unit? Did they exist only in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina or were they also there in Croatia?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to the best of my
1 knowledge, they existed both in Croatia and also in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or
2 rather, some parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in Herzegovina, but I
3 think also in Central Bosnia and even in Sarajevo.
4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry to interrupt,
5 but I would like to ask a question. Actually, I'd like to put a question
6 to the witness.
7 Sir, you told us that this certificate, or rather, those
8 certificates that were delivered to the Bosnians in the Bosnian Army, were
9 also delivered to both forces, the HVO and the HOS. I would like to ask
10 you if you know if those certificates were delivered to those two groups
11 for the entire period of war, from 1992 to 1995 or end of 1995, or were
12 those certificates only delivered to the Croatian forces during the first
13 period while these forces fought against the Serbs, if I'm not mistaken,
14 together alongside with the Bosnian Army?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know precisely. I think it
16 was for the whole war from 1992 until 1995, but I'm not really familiar
17 with that topic.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will have an
20 opportunity to clarify these issues with other witnesses.
21 Q. Witness, I asked you about a person nicknamed Abu Ubeidah. You
22 said that you knew him. Is it correct that this person was also called
23 Ali Ahmet Ali Hamad?
24 A. Well, I know Abu Ubeidah very well. I'm not sure about this
25 exactly, about Ali Ahmed, this other name. As he caused some problems
1 after the war, I know about this. He caused the problem in Mostar, and I
2 think that was his name.
3 Q. Have you ever heard of a person nicknamed Abu Aisa?
4 A. I may have done, but I don't remember who this man is.
5 Q. I will go back to what you know. Abu Ubeidah, to the best of your
6 knowledge, from August 1993 onwards, was he a member of the El Mujahedin
8 A. He was never a member of the detachment. He had a group of his
9 own first in the Karaula; and then later on in Bijelo Bucje, he had a
10 group of his own.
11 Q. Thank you. And now I'll ask you something. You're a local
12 Muslim, are you not? Do you agree that the local Muslims were very
13 sensitive in the Travnik area to the improper contacts between the Arabs
14 and their young daughters who were under age?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you remember that they complained to Dr. Abu Haris while he
17 was the emir, and that there was talk about this in the detachment?
18 A. I know of several such incidents.
19 Q. Do you know whether any such cases were ever linked to Abu
21 A. Yes. In Bijelo Bucje, there was an incident with an under-age
22 girl. Something happened, I don't know exactly what. But I know that Abu
23 Haris, who had authority and was educated, he was able to explain certain
24 things. And he tried to draw Abu Ubeidah's attention to this, to give him
25 advice, and even tried to issue an order to him, but Abu Ubeidah refused
1 to listen to anybody.
2 Q. I understood you to say that he tried to prohibit such improper
3 contacts with young girls to him.
4 A. Yes, because it damaged the reputation of all the Arabs. So he
5 tried that, but Abu Ubeidah would not allow it.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness. While you were in Bijelo Bucje, the situation
7 there was very difficult, was it not?
8 A. Yes. As I said yesterday, there were constant attacks by the
9 Chetnik forces using tanks, artillery, infantry. So the situation was
10 extremely difficult.
11 Q. I understood that there was a blockade by Serb and Croat forces.
12 Am I right?
13 A. Yes. There were Serb forces on the one side in the direction of
14 Donji Vakuf; and behind our back, there was some 15 Croatian villages.
15 And for a long time, there was a total blockade, for a long time.
16 Q. If someone were to say that at that time - and you were at Bijelo
17 Bucje then - that they often went from Bijelo Bucje to Mehuric and back,
18 that would not be possible, would it?
19 A. Well, for a long time, nobody could move around. People had to
20 stay where they were. Bijelo Bucje was the Bosniak village that was the
21 furthest out, Bijelo Bucje and another village. And neither civilians nor
22 soldiers nor anybody could move around for a long time:
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Your Honours, I have concluded my cross-examination. Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
1 Mr. Mundis.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution just has a
3 few questions that arise out of the cross-examination.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:
5 Q. PW-2, I'd like to focus your attention on the period prior to the
6 establishment of the El Mujahedin Detachment. In that period prior to the
7 unit being formally established, did the Arabs in Mehurici have a shura?
8 A. Believe me, I can't say anything about that initial period,
9 because I'm not really familiar with what went on then.
10 Q. Let me then ask you, PW-2, about the period after you joined the
11 unit, the El Mujahedin Detachment.
12 At any point in time, sir, did you ever attend any meetings of the
13 Shura Council?
14 A. Towards the end of the war, I was present once. They invited us
15 Bosniaks, since it was towards the end of the war and they were supposed
16 to leave; and, on one occasion, several of us Bosniaks were invited to
18 Q. Let me ask you, PW-2, to focus on the period the second half of
19 1993, when you first joined the El Mujahedin Detachment. During that time
20 period, sir, can you tell us who the members of the Shura Council were?
21 A. It's very hard for me to say precisely, but Imad was certainly
22 there, so was Abu Haris. I'm not sure who else. People at the top.
23 There were Arabs. There were no Bosniaks there at all.
24 Q. PW-2, I'm going to ask you a question, and I want to stress the
25 fact that I'm asking you about your personal knowledge and not whether you
1 heard about this from anyone else, but whether you are personally aware of
2 whether there were any meetings between the leaders of the El Mujahedin
3 Detachment and the leaders or commanders of any unit of the ABiH 3rd Corps
4 in 1993, when you were a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment.
5 A. When we were in the Kruscica area, I know that Vahidin,
6 "rahmetulali," had a contact with General Alagic. I know that for a
7 fact. I don't know about any other contacts.
8 Q. And, sir, the transcript didn't catch the name. You said someone
9 had a contact with General Alagic. Can you repeat the name of the person
10 that you know had a contact with General Alagic?
11 A. Vahidin, the late Vahidin.
12 Q. And, PW-2, do you know who General Alagic was and what position he
13 held at the time of this contact with Vahidin?
14 A. I know he was one of the commanders in the area. I'm not sure
15 whether he was the corps commander at the time.
16 Q. And, sir, when you say "one of the commanders in the area,"
17 commanding in which armed force?
18 A. He was a commander in the Army of BH, and I know that Vahidin had
19 contacts with him. What sort of contacts these were and what happened, I
20 don't know.
21 Q. And when you say, sir, that this contact that you've described
22 occurred when you were in the Kruscica area, can you give us an
23 approximate time period that you were referring to?
24 A. I don't know exactly. It was August or September 1993.
25 Q. PW-2, let me now turn to that part of your testimony when you told
1 us about being on the front line with Arabs near Bijelo Bucje when you
2 were part of the Muslimanske Snage.
3 Do you know - and, again, I would ask you to limit your answer to
4 what you know - do you know, if prior to the military operations along the
5 front line at Bijelo Bucje, there were any meetings between the leadership
6 of the Arabs and the leadership of the Muslimanske Snage?
7 A. I don't know. I don't know about any meetings.
8 Q. Earlier this morning, PW-2, you indicated in your testimony that
9 the Shura Council could make ultimate decisions as to whether to join any
10 combat operations. Do you remember saying that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know, PW-2, why the Shura Council retained flexibility in
13 deciding whether or not to engage in military operations with other units
14 of the BH Army?
15 A. They did not trust those units and the commanders of the Army of
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina. There was lack of confidence. Probably that is
17 the reason. They just didn't trust them.
18 Q. Do you know why?
19 A. Well, let's say yesterday, for example, we mentioned this action
20 in Visoko in 1992. The Arabs thought that those officers had consciously
21 pushed them into death. Well, they didn't respect the officers and the
22 generals, and there may have been other reasons as well.
23 Q. Can you elaborate, sir, on what you mean when you say "the Arabs
24 thought that those officers consciously pushed them into death"?
25 A. I can't explain it in detail. I don't know.
1 Q. PW-2, what type of missions was the El Mujahedin Detachment sent
2 on or asked to perform?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this question does
5 not arise from my cross-examination. The Prosecutor could have put this
6 question before my cross-examination. I did not ask about the missions
7 that the El Mujahedin Detachment was sent on.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, without elaborating in any great detail
10 in the presence of the witness, I believe this question relates to the
11 last two or three questions I put to the witness, which does arise from
12 the issue as to whether or not the Shura Council could make decisions
13 about which operations to participate in.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is overruled.
15 MR. MUNDIS:
16 Q. PW-2, let me ask you that question again. What type of missions
17 was the El Mujahedin Detachment sent on or asked to perform during the
18 period you were in that unit?
19 A. Well, I can't know, but I do know that after the conflict with the
20 Chetniks, conflicts arose with the Croats. The Bosniak villages were all
21 blocked. They were all surrounded. They were all mixed up. There would
22 be a Bosniak village, a Croat village, another Bosniak village. And I
23 know that we participated in those actions to lift the siege, the block.
24 For example, when we were at Kruscica, we were supposed to deblock
25 the old part of Vitez Town, and we were simply supposed to link up our
1 territories. We were afraid that in Stari Vitez, all the inhabitants
2 might be killed, as had happened in Ahmici.
3 Q. PW-2, you were asked a few moments ago, or perhaps 45 minutes ago,
4 about Abu Isa. Do you know, sir, if Abu Isa was a member of the El
5 Mujahedin Detachment?
6 A. I can't say for certain because I don't know, but he was there.
7 He took some documents there. But whether he was there exactly, I can't
9 Q. And, PW-2, when you say "he was there," what place are you
10 referring to when you say "he was there"?
11 A. I saw him on several occasions in the Vatrostalna barracks near
12 Zenica, where we were stationed when we were on leave.
13 Q. What function was the Vatrostalna barracks near Zenica being used
14 for at this time?
15 A. It was used as a barracks. The soldiers and the command were
16 quartered there.
17 Q. Again, sir, for the benefit of clarification, when you say "the
18 soldiers and the command were quartered there," what soldiers and what
19 command were in the Vatrostalna barracks near Zenica?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to object for
22 the record. I did not cross-examine on the barracks in Zenica. I did not
23 put a single question about this. Mr. Mundis could have put these
24 questions during the examination-in-chief, and I want to say this for the
1 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, the witness was asked questions about
2 Abu Isa, and I'm simply trying to determine who this person was and where
3 he was at the relevant time period.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you asked the question, "What function was the
5 Vatrostalna barracks near Zenica being used for at that time," is that
6 still about Abu Isa?
7 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, if I can refer you to page 49, line 11,
8 in response to a question, the witness said: "I saw him on several
9 occasions in the Vatrostalna barracks near Zenica, where we were stationed
10 when we were on leave." I'm simply asking him to clarify. He goes on to
11 say: "It was used as a barracks. The soldiers and command were quartered
12 there," on lines 15 and 16 of page 94. I'm simply asking him to clarify
13 which soldiers and which command he was referring to.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection will then be overruled.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were members of the El Mujahed
16 Detachment, Arabs, and we were there from time to time, and the El Mujahed
17 Detachment command was also there, as was the outpatients' clinic and some
18 other facilities.
19 MR. MUNDIS:
20 Q. And, finally, sir, do you know the time period when you saw Abu
21 Isa in the Vatrostalna building?
22 A. In 1995, I'm sure I saw him. I think it was 1995. I can't be
23 sure, but 1995, I think.
24 Q. Thank you, PW-2.
25 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions for the
1 witness at this time, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question in regard to
6 the cross-examination of yesterday. I am sorry to ask you the question
7 today only, but yesterday you spoke, Witness, about an incident, an armed
8 incident, concerning someone called "Ramo Durmis" in your detachment. I
9 simply would like to know, with regard to that incident that you described
10 to us in detail yesterday, was an investigation carried out?
11 A. As regards Ramo Durmis, he was not a member of the detachment.
12 This incident occurred when we were -- I don't know whether it was
13 Muslimanske Snage or the 7th Muslim. I don't know. But it was in Visoko
14 after an action, the action to deblock Sarajevo, in fact. And I think
15 that they were prosecuted, but that did not happen until the end of the
16 war. Something like that. I don't know. I think that they did have some
17 problems, but I really can't tell you now what it was.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So these prosecutions or this
19 prosecution, you said, took place after the war. Were they criminal
20 proceedings, or disciplinary proceedings, or was it an administrative
21 procedure? Do you know?
22 A. I don't know the details. I know that they did have some
23 problems, and they were supposed to be held responsible. I know that they
24 complained later that somebody had come looking for them because of that.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.
3 I have just a few.
4 You first, Madam Vidovic.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after you conclude
6 your examination, I wanted to ask a question that arose from Judge
7 Lattanzi's question. I didn't realise that you had some questions,
8 yourself. I apologise for standing up.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
10 Mr. PW-2, where is the Krajina in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Which
11 part of Bosnia-Herzegovina was the Krajina?
12 A. Krajina is in northwestern part of Bosnia. It borders with
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, is that a Bosnian Krajina or was it a Serb
15 Krajina, or is there any difference between them? Are there two such
17 A. This is the Bosnian Krajina. This is its official name, Bosanska
18 Krajina, Bosnian Krajina. As for the Serb Krajina, it is in Croatia. We
19 didn't actually call that "Krajina" at that time. The Serbs called that
20 "Krajina" when they had this armed conflict with Croats.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now, Vahidin, was he a member of the
23 A. I think that he was.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. If we can just go back to the
25 certificate that was shown to you a little earlier during
1 cross-examination, which relates to what soldiers were given at the end of
2 the war and that some people were selling because they were worthless.
3 You said, at page 41, lines 19 to 25, that these certificates were
4 also given to the HVO, am I right, and I guess also the HOS?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And these were given by the government of Bosnia
7 and Herzegovina, I understand?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And do I understand you to say that they were also
10 given to the HVO, against whom the army of the government of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina had fought?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: How was that possible, to commend your enemies?
14 A. I apologise to be saying this, but if anyone had asked me, I would
15 not have given them anything. But that's politics for you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. I want to understand that politics. Will you
17 please make me understand that politics?
18 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I really can't do that, because I
19 find it impossible to understand how they could be given the certificates
20 when they fought us; not us, but Bosnia-Herzegovina. So I really can't
21 understand that.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You understand that that's politics for me. I
23 would like you to explain this politics which I don't understand.
24 A. I will try to say something.
25 The conflicts between the BH Army and the Croatian Defence
1 Council, or rather, the Croat forces stopped once the Washington Agreement
2 was signed, and that's when the Croats agreed to be part of an alliance,
3 in a way, with the BH Army, its allies. They recognised Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina, that was the gist of it. So an agreement was signed between
5 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Now, why this period while they actually fought against the BH
7 Army was counted in their favour, to their credit, when those certificates
8 were issued, I don't know. Probably that was one of the terms in this
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, I'm sorry. I'm going to be with you for some
11 time on this point.
12 You will understand that I don't understand the politics there, so
13 I would like to understand.
14 Surely, sir, the very question you're asking yourself at the very
15 end of your answer is very pertinent. Just how does the Bosnian
16 government commend the HVO for a period when they were enemies? That they
17 have signed an agreement in Washington can explain why they become allies
18 from that time onwards, but surely the Croatian government could give
19 similar certificates to members of the HVO instead of such certificates
20 coming from the Bosnian government. Don't you think so? Does it make
21 sense to you?
22 A. Well, as for Croatia, Croatia is a different country. It's a
23 different state, and it shouldn't really have anything to do -- it should
24 not be interfering with Bosnia-Herzegovina, even when it comes to ethnic
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is my point precisely, that it seems as if the
2 Bosnian government is interfering with the Croats and giving them
3 commendations. Why didn't the government of -- if this was as a result of
4 an agreement, why did the Croatian government not also give such similar
5 certificates to members of t of the Army of the Republic of
7 A. I think that the real goal of this agreement was to put an end to
8 the hostilities. That was the most important thing.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I agree with you there. That would be the most
10 important purpose of any agreement. What I don't understand is why, as a
11 result of such an agreement, such commendations should be given and not
12 reciprocated by Croatia.
13 A. I really don't know.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. You say you really don't know, sir. So in
15 fact, at the end of the day, you are not able to give an explanation for
16 the commendations to the HVO by the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
17 A. What I do know is that Croats had this very strong influence, both
18 in military and in economic terms. So the reason why an agreement was
19 signed in that form was to ensure that the situation remained stable,
20 something like that.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem, Witness, is that you keep harping on
22 the agreement. My questions relate to the commendations, to the
23 certificates. Why would a government give commendation certificates to
24 members of an army against whom that government was fighting? That's the
25 question I'm asking. Forget about the agreement.
1 A. I will repeat what I said. When I heard that the HVO members --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, don't repeat. If you don't have anything new
3 to tell me, just tell me you don't know. I don't want you to repeat
5 Okay. Thank you very much. You are obviously not able to answer
6 my question.
7 Any questions arising from the Bench's questions, starting with
8 the Prosecution? Mr. Mundis.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Let me see if I can get an answer that might help
10 shed some light on the questions the Presiding Judge put to the witness.
11 Further Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:
12 Q. PW-2, the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council, was that military
13 organisation made up of Bosnian Croats?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Aren't you putting words into his mouth? Why don't
16 you ask him who was it made up of?
17 MR. MUNDIS:
18 Q. Do you know, sir, who the Croatian Defence Council, the HVO, was
19 made up of, the nationality of?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's water under the bridge. He's answered you
21 already. Get on to the next question.
22 MR. MUNDIS: That's the only question, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 Questions from you, Madam Vidovic?
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just make one
1 thing certain.
2 Further Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
3 Q. You know that the HVO received those certificates?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That members of the HVO received those certificates?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You don't know why?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Just one more question, sir. You said, in response to a question
10 by Judge Lattanzi, you mentioned Ramo Durmis and some investigations, but
11 you don't know why Ramo Durmis was on trial after the war?
12 A. I don't know why he was tried. I know that he was a person prone
13 to causing problems. He was always a very specific character.
14 Q. So you can't establish any link between this incident and his
16 A. I don't know anything about the trial. I know that he was prone
17 to problems. That was not the only incident that he was involved in.
18 Q. So there were other criminal acts or activities that could be
19 linked with crimes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. After the war?
22 A. Well, he was always a trouble-maker. I wasn't really interested
23 in learning the details. I just know that he was a trouble-maker.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have nothing further.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
2 Sir, this brings us to the end of your testimony. Thank you for
3 taking the time to come and testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused.
4 You may stand down. Thank you very much.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 My understanding is we're scheduled to break at 12.00. Maybe we
9 can take the recess now, reconvene at 12.20, and sit for an hour straight.
10 But I'm entirely in your hands on that point.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take the break now and come back at 20 past
14 Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 --- On resuming at 12.21 a.m.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please make the declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: BERISLAV MARIJANOVIC
22 [The witness answers through interpreter]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, and Good
24 afternoon to you, sir.
25 Mr. Mundis.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. My colleague, Laurie
2 Sartorio will be leading this witness, and I would also like to put on the
3 record that we are being assisted by our intern, Sarai Jacob, for this
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Ms. Sartorio.
8 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours.
9 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:
10 Q. Sir, would you please state your full name?
11 A. My name is Berislav Marijanovic, and I was born in the village of
12 Paklarevo in the Travnik Municipality.
13 Q. The Travnik Municipality of the country of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In 1992 and 1993, could you tell us what the ethnic composition
16 was of your village?
17 A. It was an ethnically-pure Croat village. The village of Paklarevo
18 is located between Turbe and Travnik. And it is below Mount Vlasic, and
19 there is a location by the name of Galica.
20 And then in 1992, in late March, that's where the Serb army came,
21 and they dug in their. They dug their trenches there, while we had some
22 kind of civilian protection set up around the village, because we wanted
23 to prevent them from getting into the village.
24 Q. Okay. I'll ask you a couple more questions, if you don't mind,
25 just to back up a second.
1 Were you ever in the JNA?
2 A. Yes, in 1986, and I left in 1987.
3 Q. And then were you ever a member of any other military organisation
4 or any type of village patrol?
5 A. I was in the civilian village guards in 1992, all the way up to
6 the 15th of May. When shells started coming in from Galica, I was
7 seriously wounded because a shell impacted behind me. And I was
8 transferred to the hospital in Travnik, and I was hospitalised for ten or
9 11 days there; and then when I was discharged --
10 Q. May I interrupt you? Thank you for telling us.
11 I need you to tell the Chamber, briefly, what the atmosphere was
12 like where you were living at that time, in terms of any type of whether
13 military conflicts were starting; and if so, by which groups?
14 A. Well, the atmosphere, the relations between the Croats and the
15 Muslims was good. The atmosphere was good, but Serbs attacked both Croats
16 and Muslims from Mount Vlasic, Turbe, Paklarevo, and all the villages
17 around it. So we faced the same aggressor. They attacked both of us.
18 Q. So, at this time, you were part of a -- were you part of any type
19 of Croatian military organisation, formal military organisation?
20 A. I was a member of the civilian protection. I had my pistol. That
21 was my personal property, and I went there to stand guard around the
23 Q. And when you say "civilian patrol," did the patrol consist of both
24 Croats and Muslims?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.
1 MR. ROBSON: Sir, just -- I beg your pardon. Your Honour, sorry
2 to interrupt. I think it prudent just to mention - I'm sure it's not
3 disputed - my learned friend, the Prosecutor, was referring to Croatian
4 military organisations and Croats and Muslims. I don't think it's in
5 dispute between the parties that what we're talking about is Bosnian
6 Croats, and I just thought that helpful to mention at this stage, just to
7 clarify that point.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Robson.
9 Does that help, Madam Sartorio?
10 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 MS. SARTORIO:
13 Q. Now, at the beginning of 1993, where were you living at that time?
14 A. After the first time that I was wounded and after I left the
15 hospital, I went to the village of Maline because I was married from the
16 village of Maline, and that's where I lived until the 8th of June, 1993,
17 when the conflict between Croats and Muslims erupted.
18 Q. Prior, during the time that you lived in Maline up until the 8th
19 of June, which is the date that you just mentioned, did you ever encounter
20 or see anyone who later became known to you or at that time became known
21 to you as the Mujahedin?
22 A. Yes. I'd see some groups in Travnik, at Mehuric, too, because
23 there was a village fair down there every Wednesday. So I did see those
24 small groups because I was able to tell. Because of their language and
25 because of the colour of their skin, I was able to tell them apart.
1 Q. Was there anything else about them that was a distinguishing
3 A. Well, most of them walked around in camouflage uniforms. They
4 wore beards. They talked different from us locals.
5 Q. Now, what, if anything, had you heard at that time about the
6 presence of the Mujahedin in the area, what your understanding was of what
7 they were doing there?
8 A. Well, they had not come there -- well, they had come there to
9 fight. I didn't know who they wanted to fight, but I was sure that they
10 were there to fight someone.
11 Q. Okay. Now I would like to direct your attention to the 8th of
12 June of 1993, and ask you where you were in the very early morning of that
14 A. On the 8th of June, 1993, in the early morning hours, I was in my
15 wife's brother's house. This is where my family was. And then between
16 4.00 and 5.00 a.m., there was an artillery attack on the village of
17 Maline. It was launched by the Muslim army. And then after this
18 artillery attack, we could hear a lot of infantry fire, and it lasted for
19 some considerable time, until they managed to take the village.
20 Q. Can you tell us what you mean by "considerable time"?
21 Approximately, how many hours do you recall that this conflict went on?
22 A. The conflict started in the morning and went on for about ten
23 hours. It went on until the afternoon, until the civilians left towards
25 Q. Thank you,, sorry. And until that point, when you mentioned the
1 civilians left, did you stay in your house the entire time?
2 A. I was in the house with my family. When the shelling began, we
3 went to the cellar. It wasn't just me and my family, but also my wife's
4 brother and children. We were all in the cellar.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt. I thought I heard the
6 witness say this attack was by a Muslim army, was launched by a Muslim
7 army. What do you mean by "a Muslim army"? That's at page 63, line 8.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 MS. SARTORIO:
10 Q. From being inside your house, were you able to see anything
11 outside the windows, what was happening?
12 A. Yes, I did. I saw two or three stables burning, a house, people
13 shouting, "Allahu Akbar" around the village.
14 Q. Do you know what that means?
15 A. I don't know what it means.
16 Q. Did you see any soldiers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
17 A. We saw soldiers shouting for us to get out of our houses. When we
18 came out of our houses and surrendered to them, I had my pistol which I
19 handed over to a soldier. We all left the cellar, and that was when I saw
20 the soldiers. They were walking around.
21 Q. Okay. And, approximately, how many soldiers did you see walking
22 around in the area of your house?
23 A. Where we came out of the house, there were three or four of them,
24 but they came and went.
25 Q. Do you recall what they were wearing?
1 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms. On their shoulders, they
2 had white ribbons, probably some sort of insignia, and they had black
4 Q. So, after you came out of your house, what happened next?
5 A. When we left the house, we surrendered. We all gathered together,
6 and then we sent out on the road towards Mehuric. They took us in the
7 direction of Mehuric, a group of 40 or 50 civilians, and I was among them.
8 MS. SARTORIO: I would like to bring up Map number 10, if
9 possible, and for the witness to look at and to discuss.
10 Q. While we're waiting for it to come up on the screen, in terms of
11 the composition of the group, were there women in this group?
12 A. There were women, there were children, there were elderly,
13 soldiers, a mixed group.
14 Q. And were there also some persons such as yourself who were of
15 military age who had joined the group voluntarily?
16 A. Yes, for example, my wife's brother, his son. And there were
17 other people I didn't really know, but they were there.
18 Q. Were any persons in your group dressed in any type of a military
20 A. In my group at that time, no, not in my group of civilians.
21 Q. So we now have the map up. I would like you to draw a number"1"
22 or write a number "1", where the group, this group of 50 or so you had
23 mentioned, had collated, gotten together.
24 A. That's Gornje Maline and this is Donje Maline. [Marks]
25 Q. And your group started out where, at Gornje?
1 A. From Gornje Maline, where I put number 1, that was where the first
2 group was.
3 Q. Did the group, at this point, start walking?
4 A. Yes. They told us to go in the direction of Mehuric under Bikosi
5 and Poljanice, and to take the road towards Mehuric. When we got to below
6 Bikosi --
7 Q. I'll stop you there. Sorry. Who is "they"? Was someone leading
8 your group?
9 A. The BH Army was leading the group. There was three or four
10 soldiers there, and up there we came across a Mujahedin who couldn't speak
12 Q. And this is what you were just going to tell us. Just beneath
13 Bikosi, you can explain to the Chamber now what happened.
14 A. When we got to below Bikosi, we found -- we came across a
15 Mujahedin who had a Golf 1, a white one. He didn't turn on the engine.
16 He selected three of us to push the car to a part where he could go on his
17 own, and we pushed the car. When we stopped pushing it, he went off on
18 his own, and we rejoined our column. And we went through the village of
19 Poljanice in the direction of Mehuric.
20 Q. Could I stop you, please? Could you put a number "2" where you
21 had this event with a vehicle, please?
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Now, just a question. Did you notice if anyone in your group, in
24 the group that you were walking with, not the soldiers who were escorting
25 you but your group, was anyone carrying a fire-arm, that you could tell?
1 A. Yes. All of them had long barrels, rifles, and there was even one
2 sniper escorting us.
3 Q. Okay. I'm asking about the civilians that you described or the
4 men, women, and children in your group.
5 A. None of the civilians did. I had my own personal pistol which I
6 had handed over to that soldier, who had the sniper. And my wife's
7 brother had his own personal pistol and he handed it over just as I did,
8 in the village before we set out.
9 Q. Did you notice anyone else who handed over any weapons in the
10 village before you headed out?
11 A. No, I didn't. There was just our group. They said, "If you don't
12 hand over your weapons, we will kill you." So it was better to hand them
13 over than get killed.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question to you, sir, is: Did you notice
15 anybody else in your group, other than yourself and your brother-in-law,
16 who handed over a weapon?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anybody else, apart
18 from the two of us.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 Madam Sartorio.
21 MS. SARTORIO:
22 Q. Now, after you left the spot at number 2, where did your group
24 A. We went towards the village of Poljanice.
25 Q. And did you reach the village of Poljanice?
1 A. We reached the village of Poljanice and went through in the
2 direction of Mehurici. When we were close to Mehurici, a column that had
3 set out before ours were there, and some young men had already been
4 separated off from that column and were being taken back towards the
5 village of Maline, towards Bikosi. They were going back.
6 Q. Okay. I'd like to stop you here for a moment. And, please, could
7 you mark on the map with a number "3" where what you just described
8 happened, where you met up with another group?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Now, I need you to explain just a little bit more clear what you
11 just said; in other words, when you got to that spot, you -- did you meet
12 up with another group?
13 A. Yes. We met up with this other group, which -- well, these young
14 men, the oldest were about 45, had already been separated out from that
15 group of civilians. They stopped next to our group. I was carrying my
16 little son. He was four or five months old, and my four-year-old son was
17 walking beside me. A soldier approached me. He snatched the child from
18 me and gave it to my wife in order to pull me out and get me to join that
19 column which was going back. And they did the same to my wife's brother
20 and some other youngish men, Croats from the neighbouring villages. I
21 didn't know them that well.
22 Q. Okay. I just need to ask you about the group that you met up
23 with. You said that they had -- I believe you said that they had already
24 been separated, and they were heading back toward Maline. How do you know
1 A. Because those civilians who had gone before us were not going
2 back. It was just these young men who have been separated out from those
3 civilians. They were heading back. They stopped next to our group, and
4 then they pulled us out of our group and put us together with them, and
5 then we set out towards Poljanice, towards Bikosi.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: About how many of these young men were there who
7 were separated from the other group, more or less?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were between 15 and 19. I
9 don't know exactly, around 15.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And how many from your group were separated
11 to join that group, that group of young men?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Six, seven who joined their group.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So then six from your group to join them.
14 Thank you very much, Madam.
15 MS. SARTORIO:
16 Q. Did you know anyone from that group that you met?
17 A. I knew Zdravko Pranjes. He was from the village of Maline. I
18 knew him. We had come across each other. We weren't on close terms or
19 anything like that.
20 Q. Did you recognise anyone else from that group, other than this
22 A. Later on, not in that group. No, I didn't know them that well. I
23 knew people by sight, but I didn't really know them.
24 Q. So, at the point where the number of you were taken from your
25 group to join that group, can you tell us who was escorting the group at
1 that point, what types of persons?
2 A. Escorting that group, Mujahedin and the Army of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the local people or the people from Bosnia were
4 wearing camouflage uniforms, and they had stockings over their heads with
5 slits for the eyes, like ninjas.
6 Q. Can you explain to us why it's your belief that they were the
7 local Muslim soldiers?
8 A. Well, those people --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson is on his feet. Just a second, sir.
10 Yes, Mr. Robson.
11 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, sir. I would be grateful if my learned
12 friend could rephrase that question, because in her last question she
13 referred to the local Muslim soldiers. That terminology has not been used
14 so far.
15 MS. SARTORIO: I understand, Your Honour. I will rephrase the
16 question, if I may.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.
19 Q. Sir, you just -- you stated a minute ago that the persons were
20 with the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that you believe that they were in
21 that army, the ones that had the ninja masks that you mentioned. Can you
22 tell us why you believe that they were with the Army of
24 A. They had insignia showing that they were members of the Army of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they were wearing masks because these young men
1 from those villages who had grown up among them would recognise them.
2 That's why they wore those masks. They were from neighbouring villages.
3 Q. Did you hear them speaking?
4 A. They talked among themselves, yes. They were talking among
5 themselves. I didn't hear what about.
6 Q. Could you hear what language they were speaking, if you knew?
7 A. Some spoke in a language I didn't understand; probably Arabic, a
8 language that hasn't been used in our parts.
9 Q. I'm talking about the men with the masks, whether you are able to
10 tell the Chamber whether you recognised the language they were speaking.
11 A. They were speaking Croatian, like me. While there was Yugoslavia,
12 we used to call the language "Serbo-Croatian." Those in the camouflage
13 uniforms spoke the same language I did. The Mujahedin did not wear masks.
14 Their faces were exposed.
15 Q. And when the Mujahedin spoke, did you recognise their language?
16 A. No. All they could say to us was "Bojovnik" and "Ustasha
17 Bojovnik," meaning the Croat word for "Fighter." But when they spoke
18 among themselves, I couldn't understand their language.
19 Q. Okay. Now can you please tell us where the group started to go?
20 A. That group set out towards the village of Poljanice, back towards
21 Bikosi. Shall we mark it?
22 Q. Yes. You can mark where you walked to next, if you don't mind,
23 with a "5," please -- Oh, no, "4." Sorry.
24 A. Let me just say, while we were going towards Poljanice, between
25 the place we were separated off and Poljanice, we met a girl who was
1 walking with her aunt. She was wearing a camouflage uniform, and she had
2 a Red Cross armband. Her name was Ana Pranjes, and her aunt was there,
3 whose nickname was Turka [phoen]. I knew them. A soldier approached her
4 and told her to take off her armband. She refused to do so, then a
5 Mujahedin approached her. She was wearing a chain around her neck. He
6 tore off the chain. She probably had a cross on the chain. He threw it
7 away, the cross, and he put the chain into her -- into his pocket; then he
8 tore off her armband and made her join our column.
9 Q. Could you please mark a "4" where this event happened?
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Now, let me ask you this, sir: Was anyone in your group, not the
12 escorts, not the army, the soldiers from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
13 but did anyone in your group become belligerent or argumentative at all
14 during this time?
15 A. At that point in time, no. I just remember that one soldier said,
16 "Now we've taken your shrine at Guca Gora. We'll burn it." He said that
17 to the other one, and the other one said, "I'm not interested in that."
18 Q. Now, what happened next, if anything?
19 A. The column moved on towards Poljanice; and when we arrived in
20 Poljanice, we met a group of wounded, four or five of them, and four or
21 five others who were assisting them, because some had crutches, others had
22 sticks, and so on. And there was a woman who had been wounded in the leg
23 the day before. She was about 60 years old. She was on a stretcher. And
24 they sent back that group of wounded with us to the village of Bikosi.
25 When we set out from there, a BH Army soldier told me that someone
1 had been shot through both legs, and they had used a wooden fence to carry
2 him, and he told me to take over and carry him with three others. I
3 carried him through a wooded area. We got out onto a meadow where there
4 were BH Army trenches.
5 Q. Could you please mark a "5" on the map where this event happened,
6 where you picked up the wounded soldier?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Now, I need to ask you, when you say you came upon a group of
9 wounded, could you describe, other than the woman you described, were the
10 rest of the group men, were they soldiers, were they civilians, if you can
11 tell us?
12 A. They were soldiers. The brother of one of them had been wounded,
13 and they two others were helping him because his leg was shattered. They
14 were soldiers.
15 Q. Soldiers from what force?
16 A. HVO.
17 Q. Now, could you just tell us briefly, is Poljanice a village or is
18 it an area? Can you please describe to the Judges what it is?
19 A. It's a small village, a hamlet called Poljanice.
20 Q. Now, what happened next, sir?
21 A. We left Poljanice. I was carrying Srecko Bobas. The group
22 stopped on a meadow, and on the meadow were BH Army trenches. The column
23 stopped. About 12 men were separated off from the first group and made to
24 stand next to the trenches. They stood there in a row in front of the
25 trench. There were three or four of them, a Mujahedin and three locals.
1 And there was some sort of misunderstanding among them, because I thought
2 they would kill someone us right there on that spot.
3 They discussed something and then they sent that group back to our
4 column, and we went on towards Bikosi two by two. When we set out towards
5 Bikosi, another four were carrying Srecko Bobas behind me. I wasn't
6 carrying him anymore at that point, because this man had issued an order
7 that another four men should carry him.
8 The column moved towards Bikosi. We stopped for a while below
9 Bikosi, and then we set out again. It was a brief stop.
10 Q. May I stop you briefly. Could you please mark with the number "6"
11 where the stop was by the trenches?
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And now could you mark with a "7" where you just mentioned this
14 brief stop occurred?
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you, sir. You may continue with what occurred next.
17 A. The group walked on towards the village of Bikosi. To the left,
18 there was a road leading to Maline, but we went straight ahead. Bikosi is
19 a little hamlet behind Maline.
20 When we got to the houses, on the right-hand side were two
21 stables, on the left-hand side were houses. There were wooden fences on
22 both sides, the left and the right. The road was an asphalt road.
23 When we arrived at the point between the stables and the houses,
24 Mijo Tavic had an attack. He had a fit. He was ill. He suffered from
25 epilepsy, and he had an epileptic fit. He started shouting out. And when
1 he yelled out, I turned around to tell the BH Army soldier that this man
2 was ill, but they opened bursts of fire right away.
3 The one that was shooting next to me held his rifle low down. He
4 was shooting towards the asphalt, but he wounded me in my left leg. When
5 I saw people falling down, I put my hands on my head and I fell down
6 towards the right. I lay down on the asphalt. I kept quiet, and I peeped
7 out through my fingers. On the right-hand side, there was a fence. And
8 an HVO soldier was jumping over the fence and he was shot, and he remained
9 lying over the fence.
10 The BH Army soldier behind me who was shooting, he shouted out,
11 and he said that he was wounded in the stomach because probably had a
12 bullet had ricocheted off the asphalt. He shouted out, too, and I didn't
13 dare raise my head anymore. I lay quietly until they started walking
14 among us and shooting people in the head one by one. I thought I would
15 not survive this.
16 Q. Thank you. I just need to ask you a couple of questions.
17 When you say there was -- when the firing started, can you tell
18 me, was it a burst of fire or was it single shots?
19 A. At first, there were bursts, as many bullets -- a hail of fire, as
20 many bullets as they could fire. And then once the bursts stopped, then
21 there were individual shots, and you could hear the wounded people moan.
22 And I assumed that when we could hear those isolated shots, they didn't go
23 in any order, because the man next to me was shot in the head and I was
24 splattered by the blood from his head. And I hunkered down because I was
25 waiting for the bullet to come, but he left me alone; and then they would
1 just fire those isolated shots.
2 So I just lay there maybe ten minutes. I don't know how long it
3 took because I was terrified and all. I was silent, and then all of a
4 sudden I could hear this voice saying, "Help. Is there anyone alive here?
5 I've been wounded." I waited a little while because I was afraid there
6 would be some more shooting; and when no more shots came, I put my head up
7 and I saw that some people leapt up, so I did, and I was amazed to see
8 there were some people still alive.
9 I leapt over a fence that was to my right, although I was wounded;
10 and then I ran down to the -- through the meadows to the left. And to the
11 right there was a Vranjaca hill, there was a large amount of troops, and
12 they started firing on me and the four people running behind me. We were
13 running towards the village Podstinje.
14 Q. Can I interrupt you, sir? Thank you.
15 I need to take you back a bit where you said that an HVO soldier
16 jumped over the fence. Okay. Can you tell us where, if the fence was in
17 front, or behind you, or on the side, and whether when this person what
18 you saw, did he run before the firing started?
19 A. The fence was to my right; and as I fell down, I was very close to
20 the fence, my head was close to it. And my hands were on my eyes, so I
21 just peeked through my fingers. And during the shooting, the bursts, he
22 tried to jump over it and he was shot, and he remained lying there over
23 the fence.
24 Q. Were you able to see whether, when he had run away or started to
25 run away, whether he was running towards anyone who was shooting at him?
1 A. He couldn't run anywhere because the fence was right there. He
2 wanted to jump over the fence in order to save his life. Had he been able
3 to do so, he would have survived, probably.
4 Q. Okay. Now, could you please put an "8" on the map where this
5 event occurred, please?
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Now, could you please describe to the Judges the route you took
8 and how long it took you to reach safety, and then what happened?
9 A. We were moving from Bikosi towards Podstinje, that's a village. I
10 was fleeing towards the village, and the other four were fleeing behind
11 me. And when they caught up with me, there was a young man, Zeljo Puselja
12 from Podavi. I knew him by sight, and we went with him to a meadow
13 further down from Podstinje. There were some trees there, and we tried to
14 dress our wounds. A man, young man had a wound. He was wounded in the
15 ribs. So I stripped my vest, because it was not really cold, and we used
16 my vest to bind our wounds. A man by the name of Puselja was hit in the
17 left hip, I think, and this young boy who was with me, I think he was not
18 wounded at all. A bullet just went very, very close to him and singed
20 And there's a river called Bila that flows next to Mehuric. One
21 man wearing civilian clothes and one man wearing military clothes came out
22 of the water, and they said, "Surrender, lie down. It's over." And I
23 immediately started running. The kid ran after me. So we ran to the
24 left and then we crossed Bila, and we ran towards Fazlic, crossing the
25 road leading to Mehuric.
1 And near the village of Fazlici, about 500 metres -- from a
2 distance of about 500 metres, two bursts were fired at us, and then we
3 went to right to the village of Orasac.
4 Q. May I stop you for a moment?
5 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just need some clarification here.
7 You said at page 78, line 1: "A man, a young man, had a wound.
8 He was wounded in the ribs. So I stripped my vest, because it was not
9 really cold, and we used my vest to bind our wounds."
10 Then you also say: "A man by the name of Puselja was hit in the
11 right hip, I think, and this young boy that was with me," now, I imagine
12 you're referring now to Zeljo, "he was not wounded at all."
13 I'm not sure. First, you said he was injured in the rib. Now you
14 say he was not wounded at all. What was actually the correct situation at
15 that point? Was he wounded or was he not wounded?
16 A. Darko Puselja was wounded in the shoulder and the rib area. Zeljo
17 Puselja was wounded in the arm, close to the elbow, through the elbow.
18 All four of us were wounded. Just the kid was not wounded.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's becoming a little more complicated now. Was
20 Zeljo Puselja wounded at all?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was wounded in the right arm.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not on the rib? He was not wounded on the rib?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Zeljo Puselja was not wounded
24 on the rib. He was wounded in the arm, and Darko Puselja was wounded in
25 the rib and the shoulder.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Darko Puselja was. Thank you so much.
2 Thank you very much, Madam Sartorio. I'm sorry about that.
3 MS. SARTORIO: No, that's okay, Your Honour.
4 I need to go back. It appears in the record -- I thought that the
5 witness had mentioned the name of the kid, and we can either go back to
6 the record or I'll just ask him if he knows the name of the kid he was
7 referring to.
8 Q. Do you know the name of the kid that you have been referring to?
9 A. The one that had not been wounded? Pavo Barac.
10 Q. And could you tell us how old he was, if you know?
11 A. I think he was not older than 16 at the time. I think he was 16.
12 Q. On the map, sir, could you draw the line that shows the route that
13 you took and then draw a number "9" where the incident -- where you
14 dressed your wounds?
15 A. Should I draw a line leading towards the figure, or what do you
16 want me to do?
17 Q. Yes. From number 8, did you just go straight across to number 9,
18 or just indicate for the record the direction that you went in.
19 A. We were moving from this figure 8 to figure 9. That was the
20 direction, and that's where we dressed our wounds.
21 Q. And then from 9, which direction did you go in?
22 A. Then from figure 9, we moved towards the village of Fazlici and
23 there is the village of Orasac. I can't see it here. This is where we
24 spent one day and one night in a pine wood, and then we went to Guca Gora.
25 Q. And what happened in Guca Gora?
1 A. While we were at Orasac, we thought that we could be saved once we
2 reached Guca Gora, because at that time we didn't know that Guca Gora had
3 already been captured, that it had fallen. We moved at around 9.00 or
4 8.00 -- 9.00 or 10.00 from Orasac to Guca Gora, and we reached Guca Gora
5 at around 3.00 or 4.00 a.m. We saw that there was nobody there, that all
6 the houses were deserted. And as it got light, we realised that we
7 shouldn't be there, and we went towards Nova Bila.
8 Q. I realise that these places aren't on the map, but can you tell
9 us, in relation to Fazlici, where Guca Gora is, if it's to the north or to
10 the east?
11 A. East or northeast, I really can't tell you now.
12 Q. Can you tell us how far in kilometres it is?
13 A. From Fazlici? From Orasac or Fazlici?
14 Q. Fazlici.
15 A. Well, the road goes through Donje Maline, and maybe five or six
16 kilometres, five, six kilometres, something like that.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe Map number 9 might be able to help you.
18 MS. SARTORIO: But we need to capture this image on this map first
19 before we move; otherwise, we lose the image. Thank you.
20 May that be entered as an exhibit as well?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map on the screen is admitted into evidence.
22 May it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number 129.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. And, Your Honour, do you want to conduct the
1 questioning or would you like me to ask the witness about it?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. You carry on, and I guess you're about five
3 minutes from your hour.
4 MS. SARTORIO: I have just two more questions, Your Honour, as
5 soon as we can get to when the witness arrived at safety.
6 Could you put up Map 9, please.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we are looking for the next map,
8 Mr. Witness, can I ask you if, at the time you were fleeing off the next
9 day from Guca Gora, were you then by that time alone with the kid? There
10 was only two of you or were there others from the original group?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was just the two of us, and
12 the other three were captured at Postinje, where we were trying to bind
13 our wounds. These two men managed to capture them, and we were the only
14 ones who managed to flee towards Fazlic and then to Orasac, where we spent
15 this one night and one day.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
17 MS. SARTORIO:
18 Q. Sir, looking at the map in front of you, do you see Guca Gora on
19 this map?
20 A. Yes, I can see it here.
21 Q. Would you circle it, please, and put a number "1"?
22 A. Should I circle the whole thing?
23 Q. Sorry. Just put a number "1."
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Was this your final destination?
1 A. No. We moved on towards the village of Kula, towards Nova Bila,
2 in fact, but we encountered a soldier there. I think he was a BH Army
3 soldier. He was there on the hill, and we were in the meadow and we ran
4 through a grove. And he suddenly stood up in front of us, and we didn't
5 dare to proceed forward. So we moved back to Guca Gora, where we made a
6 plan. We wanted to go by way of Vlasic out of Guca Gora.
7 We saw that there were many soldiers there, however; and then we
8 moved towards Han Bila. There is a Croat village there Kosovo; and then
9 as we moved to Han Bila, two men, two soldiers saw us from Guca Gora and
10 they ran after us. And then as we walked towards Han Bila, from a grove
11 shots were fired at us, so we went to the village of Sarici. We went
12 right, took a right turn.
13 There was a Croat flag flying in the village of Sarici. There
14 were three soldiers up there on the hill. And we saw that this was the
15 HVO, and I knew a man from Guca Gora. His name was Zlaja, that's the name
16 I knew him by. And they asked us what happened, and then we told them;
17 and then I was transferred to the Nova Bila hospital to get treatment for
18 my wounds.
19 Q. Sir, were you ever contacted by anyone from the Army of Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina about this incident?
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. Did you ever give a statement to the news media?
23 A. I think I may have been interviewed by the BBC. I think it was in
24 1993, maybe two or three days after the events.
25 Q. And did you ever give a statement to any human rights organisation
1 about what happened to you on that day?
2 A. I think I made two statements of that kind.
3 Q. Do you know if one statement was recorded?
4 A. I don't know whether the BBC guys -- well, I don't know what they
5 did, how they went about it. We were in front of a house, and that was
6 all very short. I never saw any of the footage or anything.
7 Q. Your interviews or your statement that you gave to human rights
8 organisation, do you know if that statement was audio-recorded?
9 A. I don't think so.
10 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, I'd like to just play 30 seconds
11 of a tape, to see if the witness can identify anything on the tape. We
12 have to do it in closed session because it's an international
13 organisation, Rule 70.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Before we do that, you're going to do
15 something about the map on the screen?
16 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. Sorry, Your Honour. I would like to freeze
17 that map and enter it as an exhibit, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That map is entered as an exhibit. May it please
19 be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 130.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 MS. SARTORIO: This is the last question I have, Your Honour, for
23 the witness.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MS. SARTORIO:
1 Q. While we're waiting for the tape to come on, could you tell me
2 approximately --
3 MS. SARTORIO: We have to go into private session at this point.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
5 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session now.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Robson.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Marijanovic. My name is Nicholas Robson, and
22 I'll be asking you some questions for the Defence this afternoon.
23 Mr. Marijanovic, I'm a little bit unclear about your last answers.
24 It's right, is it not, that on the 12th of June, just some four days after
25 the incident in Bikosi, you gave a statement about what happened to some
1 international human rights officers. Do you remember meeting with
2 international human rights officers?
3 A. I don't.
4 Q. Do you remember going to the HQ of the British Battalion in Vitez
5 soon after the events of 8th of June?
6 A. I remember that I was there, yes.
7 Q. And you spoke with some members of the International Community
8 whilst you were there; is that right?
9 A. Yes, I did. Yeah.
10 Q. Is it possible that those officers recorded what you said or took
11 a statement of what you told them?
12 A. I don't think they did, but I don't remember, really.
13 Q. Okay. You've confirmed that there were other occasions when you
14 gave statements about what happened at Maline and Bikosi; that's right,
15 isn't it?
16 A. There were some statements. I don't think that they were recorded
17 or written down anywhere.
18 Q. Well, do you remember attending at the Human Rights Centre in
19 Medjugorje in October of 1993? Have you heard of that Human Rights
20 Centre, first of all?
21 A. No. I've never heard of it, and I didn't go there.
22 Q. How about the Commission for the Verification of War Crimes in the
23 Treaty of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna; have you ever heard of
24 that commission?
25 A. I didn't hear anything about any of those commissions.
1 Q. So, if I understand you correctly, you've never heard of the Human
2 Rights Centre at Medjugorje, and you've never heard of the Commission for
3 the Verification of War Crimes?
4 A. I did hear about this Human Rights Centre, but I wasn't in
5 Medjugorje. I didn't go to Medjugorje.
6 Q. You can confirm, however, that you were interviewed by an
7 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal; is that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you gave a statement to that investigator in September of the
11 year 2000; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And am I correct in saying that your memory of the events at
14 Maline and Bikosi would be much better than when you gave -- when you gave
15 that statement back in 2000 than it is now some 14 years after the event;
16 would you agree?
17 A. That the statement was better? Well, I wouldn't agree with that,
18 because I was dazed at the time.
19 Q. At what time were you dazed?
20 A. Well, immediately after the first statement that I gave, I was
21 depressed. My wife and children were in captivity. I didn't know
22 anything about their fate.
23 Q. You see, I would suggest to you that you've given several
24 statements, at least three, if not more. You're mentioning now that you
25 were dazed. Let's be clear. Are you saying you were dazed when you gave
1 the statement to the OTP investigator in September 2000?
2 A. No. At that time, I was fine.
3 Q. So your recollection of the events would have been clear [Realtime
4 transcript read in error "clearer"] at the time you gave your statement to
5 the investigator; is that right?
6 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I object to that. Clearer than what?
7 MR. ROBSON: I said "clear" rather than clearer.
8 MS. SARTORIO: Oh, it's written down "clearer."
9 MR. ROBSON:
10 Q. Just to clarify that, the question I asked you: Your recollection
11 of the events relating to Maline and Bikosi would have been clear when you
12 gave your statement to the investigator in September of the year 2000; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'd now like to turn to the events at the start of the war that
16 you spoke about. It's right that in March 1992, the Serb forces had
17 started digging trenches around your village of Paklarevo and in the
18 general area of the Travnik Municipality; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And those Serbs had set up positions upon Mount Vlasic?
21 A. At the edge of Vlasic, yes, in the direction of Travnik and Turbe.
22 Q. In May 1992, you yourself were hit by mortar shrapnel, and you
23 were wounded, seriously wounded; is that right?
24 A. Yes. It wasn't one piece but ten pieces of shrapnel. A shell
25 landed right behind me.
1 Q. And while you were recovering, you and your family moved to Maline
2 village, which is also in Travnik Municipality; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the reason you went there was because Maline village was
5 quieter. There was not --
6 A. It was further away from the Serb positions, so I thought it was
8 Q. Maline village is made up of two parts, isn't it? Gornje Maline,
9 the upper part, is where the Croats lived; and Donje Maline, the lower
10 part, is where the Bosnian Muslims lived; is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And when you moved to Maline village, at that time, both the
13 Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats had organised separate defensive
14 lines facing towards the Serbs on Mount Vlasic; would you agree?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You mentioned Mujahedin in your evidence?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Am I right in saying that you first saw them in the Travnik
19 Municipality at the end of 1992?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. You mentioned that you saw small groups of Mujahedin. From that,
22 do I take it, that there was more than one group of Mujahedin in the area,
23 in the Travnik Municipality?
24 A. Yes. There was more than one.
25 Q. Now, around that time, is it right to say that you noticed some of
1 the local Bosnian Muslims join the members of the Arab Mujahedin and
2 started copying their appearance; for example, they started growing beards
3 and wearing similar clothing to the Mujahedin; is that right?
4 A. Yes, yes, that happened, too.
5 Q. In the spring of 1993, once you'd moved to Maline village, it's
6 right, isn't it, that tensions between the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian
7 Muslims started to increase, the relations deteriorated; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And is it right that around March 1993, a new Croatian Defence
10 Council brigade was formed in your area and had a headquarters at the Guca
11 Gora monastery?
12 A. I don't know much about that. It's possible, because there was an
13 HVO, and I'm sure they had a command somewhere.
14 Q. Do you recall most of the Bosnian Croat men from your village and
15 around the area who were fit for military service became members of that
16 brigade; is that right?
17 A. Yes, they did.
18 Q. And soon after the establishment of that brigade, is it right to
19 say that the HVO members from Maline village started establishing military
20 positions facing the Bosnian Army?
21 A. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina set up lines towards them, and they
22 set up lines towards them.
23 Q. So, at that point in time, is it right to say that the members of
24 the Croatian Defence Council from Maline and the surrounding villages no
25 longer went to the defensive lines on Vlasic, facing the Serbs, but now
1 went to the new positions around their village, facing towards the Bosnian
3 A. I don't know much about that because I didn't go to the lines. I
4 was wounded.
5 Q. Let's turn to the events on the 8th of June. You've told us that
6 an attack commenced between 4.00 and 5.00 that day, and it was launched by
7 the Bosnian Army; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said the attack lasted for some ten hours, until the Bosnian
10 Army took the village; is that so?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And there were a large number of HVO soldiers located around
13 Maline village that day, weren't there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And those HVO soldiers tried to defend the village from the
16 Bosnian Army attack, didn't they?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, when the Bosnian Army managed to take the village, it's
19 correct to say that some of the HVO soldiers were able to escape towards
20 Guca Gora; is that right?
21 A. Yes, they did, towards Guca Gora and Nova Bila.
22 Q. Now, you've explained to the Court that during the attack you were
23 in the cellar of your -- it your brother's house; is that right?
24 A. It was the house of my wife's brother. My family house, where I
25 was born, was far away from there.
1 Q. Okay. And you spent most of the time during the attack in the
2 cellar with your family and also your wife's brother's family; is that
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. And, at around midday, somebody from the Bosnian Army shouted for
6 all the Bosnian Croat villagers to come out of the houses; is that right?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. You, yourself, noticed some villagers coming out of the houses and
9 surrendering, and then you decided to come out and surrender as well; is
10 that right?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And you came out of the house with your family, and you met up
13 with the other Bosnian Croats in a yard in front of a house in the
14 village; is that right?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. When the Bosnian Army troops rounded up the Bosnian Croat
17 villagers, it's fair to say that they treated you properly, didn't they?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when the Bosnian Army gathered you all together, that was in
20 the center of the village and you gathered together with other Bosnian
21 Croats; is that right?
22 A. Not all of them, but with some of them apart.
23 Q. In your evidence, you've mentioned that you gathered together with
24 40 or 50 people, is that right, civilians, you mentioned?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can I suggest to you that amongst that group there were also
2 Bosnian Croat soldiers who were wearing uniform as well?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That's right. At this stage, one of the Bosnian Army soldiers
5 ordered your group to start walking towards Mehurici; is that so?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So, in your group at that time, how many people were there? About
8 40 or 50?
9 A. Yes, about that number.
10 Q. And you walked from Gornje Maline all the way to Poljanice
11 village, escorted by three or four Bosnian Army soldiers; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You actually passed through Poljanice village and continued in the
14 direction of Mehurici; is that so?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And am I right in saying that it was at that point that you came
17 across another group of 15 to 19 Croat men walking in the opposite
18 direction, towards the direction of Bikosi; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, that group of Bosnian Croat men, they were escorted by some
21 other people, weren't they?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It's right to say, isn't it, that the men, the persons escorting
24 the Bosnian Croats, were four Mujahedin?
25 A. They were both Mujahedin and members of the Army of Bosnia and
1 Herzegovina who spoke Croatian.
2 Q. Well, that's not right, is it? Those men, escorting those Bosnian
3 Croats, there were two foreign men and two local Mujahedin; isn't that so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the local Mujahedin, you mentioned, had green masks on their
6 faces and they looked like ninjas; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. They weren't dressed like ordinary Bosnian Army soldiers, were
10 A. Some were and some were not.
11 Q. Now, those four men, who I've described as Mujahedin, they stopped
12 your group, didn't they?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Am I right in understanding that you were towards the back of your
15 group, so you had difficulties in seeing what was going on exactly; is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes, I was at the back.
18 Q. Can you help us with this: Those four men that I have described
19 as Mujahedin, it's right, isn't it, that they threatened the Bosnian Army
20 soldiers that were escorting your group with their weapons?
21 A. They -- I don't know what they did among themselves; but when they
22 separated off 12, they had some kind of misunderstanding. But what it was
23 about, I don't know.
24 Q. Well, those four men, they separated the men, you've mentioned six
25 or seven men, from your group of Bosnian Croats; is that right?
1 A. They separated off about 12 men.
2 Q. And the 12 men that they separated from the group, were they all
3 of military service age?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson, will that be a convenient time or not?
6 MR. ROBSON: Well, Your Honour, I've certainly got plenty more
7 questions, so I think that is good.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can imagine.
9 So this would be as good a time to stop as any other?
10 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour, indeed.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Court adjourns to tomorrow at 9.00 in Courtroom I.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of
16 July, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.