Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2184

1 Wednesday, 12 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody around the court today.

7 Before we call the case, just a small housekeeping matter. I

8 won't go into details because the witness is here already.

9 The Chamber received an urgent motion for protective measures

10 yesterday, and because of its urgency, what we want to find out is whether

11 the parties, or particularly the Defence, would be in a position to give

12 maybe an oral response not now but at the beginning of the next break, and

13 then maybe we can see how to proceed with that.

14 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, we can certainly do that. We were

15 anticipating lodging a response this afternoon, but certainly we can give

16 the indication after the next break.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. It's much appreciated.

18 Sorry, Mr. Robson, do I understand you to say you would be in a

19 position to give some oral comments at the beginning of the next break?

20 MR. ROBSON: That's correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

22 Mr. Registrar, can you call the case, please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

24 Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the

25 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

Page 2185

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 Can we have appearances for today.

3 The Prosecution.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

6 the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Laurie Sartorio,

7 assisted today by our intern, Emma Berry, and our case manager,

8 Alma Imamovic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 For the Defence.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

12 morning, colleagues from the Prosecution, everybody in and around the

13 courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson representing the Defence

14 of General Delic, with assistants Lejla Gluhic and Asja Zujo.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Mr. Divjak, may I remind you that at the beginning of your

17 testimony yesterday, you made a declaration to tell the truth and nothing

18 else but the truth. Do you remember that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just remind you that you are still bound by that

21 declaration to tell the truth even today.

22 Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

24 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.


Page 2186

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examination by Ms. Sartorio: (Continued)

3 Q. Good morning, General Divjak. Yesterday, at the end of the

4 court --

5 A. Good morning to you.

6 Q. Thank you. We were discussing the Mujahedin, and you told the

7 Chamber about the first time that you had heard about their presence, and

8 you testified about a meeting on the 18th of June, 1993. Do you recall

9 your testimony yesterday?

10 A. Yes, very well indeed.

11 Q. Now, after this meeting of 18 June 1993, when was the next time

12 that you heard about the Mujahedin?

13 A. That was not official, it was not any official meeting. It was

14 during some talks in 1994 and 1995 between me, myself, and the people who

15 were in the Staff, people who at the time were at the forward command post

16 in Zenica or Kakanj.

17 Q. Thank you. And we will get to that meeting, because it has a

18 videotape.

19 MS. SARTORIO: But first I'd like the witness to be shown Exhibit

20 271, please.

21 Sir, I'd like you to read this document, since it is short.

22 A. "The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina" --

23 Q. Oh, excuse me. Thank you, sir. You don't need to read it into

24 the record, just read it. Have you had a chance to read it, look at it?

25 A. Well, you showed me this paper the day before yesterday, which was

Page 2187

1 the first time I saw it.

2 Q. Okay. And this paper is eight days after the 18th -- excuse me,

3 it is a month and eight days after the meeting; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And this is at document authorising Sakib Mahmuljin to carry out

6 negotiations on behalf of General Delic with regard to the Mujahedin;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 Q. And is it your testimony that you were never aware of this action

10 that was being taken?

11 A. No, I was not aware of the existence of this authorisation.

12 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I can put away this document, and I

13 would like the witness to be shown --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

15 MS. SARTORIO: -- document P01461.

16 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?

17 A. You also showed me this document two days ago.

18 Q. And is that the first time that you had seen this document?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. And this document is dated the 12th of August, 1993?

21 A. That's what it says, the 12th of August, 1993, Zenica.

22 MS. SARTORIO: And it is -- this is also, I should correct for the

23 record, marked as Exhibit 272.

24 Q. And this is an order or a proposal, I should say, from

25 Commander Hadzihasanovic with regard to incorporating the El Mujahedin --

Page 2188

1 naming the El Mujahedin Detachment; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is correct, the way it is written in the document.

3 Q. And is it your testimony that you were never aware of this

4 proposal, this action that was being proposed?

5 A. I was not aware of either this proposal or the action proposed in

6 it.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. May we put away this document, and I'd

8 like the witness --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you -- what I have marked as P01466 which has

11 been marked already as Exhibit 273.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I suggest that you call it by the exhibit

13 number that it is.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And forget about the "P0".

16 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Sir, when is the first time that you saw this document?

18 A. During the proofing session at your office.

19 Q. And would you agree that this is a document dated the 13th of

20 August, which is a day after the previous document?

21 A. Yes, it bears the date 13th of August, 1993.

22 Q. And it's signed -- it's an order signed by General Delic?

23 A. Can it be scrolled up a bit, because I cannot see the signature.

24 Yes, Commander Delic's signature is on the second page.

25 MS. SARTORIO: And then I'd like the witness to be shown --

Page 2189

1 highlight the first page, Roman numeral II, "Mobilisation Preparations."

2 Q. Sir, this says:

3 "The order is to replenish the El Mujahedin Detachment with

4 foreign volunteers currently on the territory of the 3rd Corps zone of

5 responsibility. These people keep the weapons and other equipment which

6 they already had been issued to them."

7 Is that what that says?

8 A. Yes, that is what the order of the army commander says under item

9 2.

10 Q. So as deputy commander to General Delic and to the army, were you

11 aware of any of these actions that were taking place?

12 A. As regards the previous two documents which you showed to me, and

13 the one that you are showing to me right now, I don't know anything about

14 those.

15 Q. Now, at some point was there a change in the position of the

16 commander of the 3rd Corps?

17 A. In this period, Hadzihasanovic was the commander. Later,

18 General Sakib Mahmuljin was appointed in his stead.

19 Q. And did you ever attend any meetings with General Delic and

20 Sakib Mahmuljin together?

21 A. At one of the meetings were not only the two of them but also the

22 corps commanders. That was a regular briefing on combat readiness. It

23 took place in Zenica, and I cannot recall the exact date.

24 Q. And how often were these regular meetings being held?

25 A. We would have meetings in the Staff, at the Staff, in Sarajevo

Page 2190

1 every morning, at the forward command post probably every morning, and

2 once or twice every two months the commander organised meetings with corps

3 commanders. As far as I can recall, I cannot remember the exact date, but

4 as far as I can recall, I attended one of those meetings.

5 And I can remember something which may be interesting; that is,

6 that it was General Delic's birthday on that day or around that time, so

7 that I congratulated him on his birthday on behalf of the Staff.

8 Q. But if you only attended one of those meetings, how are you aware

9 that there were other meetings between General Delic and Sakib Mahmuljin?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

11 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong, but I

12 don't think it's been established that there were meetings between

13 General Delic and Sakib Mahmuljin.

14 MS. SARTORIO: I'll rephrase the question.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, just a second.

16 MS. SARTORIO: If you look at --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second.

18 MS. SARTORIO: I was going to show Your Honours where we discussed

19 it. Line 13 --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Line 14, page 6, the question was -- where was it

21 now?

22 MS. SARTORIO: It's off the screen now. That's why I was trying

23 to --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: At line 14:

25 "And did you ever attend any meetings with General Delic and

Page 2191

1 Sakib Mahmuljin together?"

2 And the answer was:

3 "At one of the meetings, there were not only the two of them but

4 also the corps commanders ..."

5 And the discussion is developed along that line.

6 MR. ROBSON: Indeed, Your Honour, but my understanding from the

7 evidence is at no stage has General Divjak stated that there were other

8 meetings between General Delic and Sakib Mahmuljin, which was obviously

9 put to the witness in the last question.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

11 MS. SARTORIO: It does say, "at one of the meetings," but I will

12 rephrase the question, Your Honour, and ask the witness straight out.


14 MS. SARTORIO: So we can move on.

15 Q. Sir, are you aware of any other meetings that took place between

16 General Delic and Sakib Mahmuljin, other than the one that you attended

17 with them?

18 A. As for individual meetings between General Delic and

19 General Mahmuljin, I'm not aware of any meetings between the two of them.

20 Q. Are you aware of regular corps meetings where the two of them

21 would be in attendance along with other corps commanders?

22 A. I knew that meetings were being held outside Sarajevo.

23 Q. And do you know who attended those meetings?

24 A. I was not at those meetings. I don't know who attended them.

25 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any reports that were submitted by

Page 2192

1 General Mahmuljin to General Delic regarding the Mujahedin?

2 A. I have no such information. I don't know that General Mahmuljin

3 ever informed General Delic about the operations of the Mujahedin or the

4 use or the combat operations carried out by Mujahedin.

5 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like the witness, please, to be shown Exhibit

6 P01783.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, exhibit or --

8 MS. SARTORIO: No, it's a pre-trial exhibit, Your Honour.

9 Q. Now, sir, did you have an opportunity to review this document on

10 Sunday or before Sunday?

11 A. Judge, you showed me this document, and we commented on it.

12 Q. And what -- what were your comments with regard to this document?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

14 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I raise an objection at this stage. The

15 witness has clearly stated that he was not aware of any reports being sent

16 by General Mahmuljin to General Delic, and this is such a document, so

17 this is a document the witness has never seen before prior to the briefing

18 session and I would submit that to get the General to comment upon it at

19 this stage would be inviting speculation.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

21 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, I would like to ask him about

22 the contents of the document, not about whether he saw it -- I would like

23 to ask him about his knowledge of certain matters that are contained

24 within the document. And as deputy commander of the army, he was in a

25 high-enough position that I think he should be asked about the matters

Page 2193

1 that are contained in this document. Whether it gets admitted or not

2 through this witness is another matter, but I should be allowed to ask him

3 questions about what's contained in the document, the topics.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you need the document to ask him about the

5 content?

6 MS. SARTORIO: No, it just -- it will facilitate me having to

7 read -- not me having to read items into the record, but I can -- I can

8 certainly -- I can --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you are not intending to tender the document

10 into evidence through this witness; you just want to ask him about the

11 contents? Is that what I understand you to be saying?

12 MS. SARTORIO: Well, yes, Your Honour. I think we may tender it,

13 but it also may be helpful to know -- mark it for identification so that

14 later on if another witness speaks about this document, we know that this

15 is the same document that the General was shown and was asked about.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You may proceed for those limited purposes.

17 But just before you do, just by looking at the two documents that are

18 appearing on the screen, are we clear that the one is a translation of the

19 other? The one seems to be very sparsely written on, and the other one is

20 very richly written on.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MS. SARTORIO: Well, I don't read B/C/S, so it's hard for me to

23 say for sure, but the spacing is different. The English version is

24 double-spaced, versus the single space, and --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want confirmation that it is --

Page 2194

1 MS. SARTORIO: Well, it appears to me the numbers are the same,

2 the date. If I can look at the numbers at the top of the B/C/S document.

3 21 of 01/11. 1849/94. It appears to be the same document, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you.


6 Q. Now, the date of this document is the 10th of October, 1994; would

7 you agree with that? Or, well, sorry, excuse me.

8 Sir, it says in the -- I'll withdraw that question and start over

9 so there's no objection.

10 Are you aware that there were problems --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Your learned friend is on his feet.

12 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour. Just I don't think the record

13 caught what Judge Harhoff said. Could it reflect that the document is

14 dated the 10th of August, 1994, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You just wanted to mention that, to correct that

16 October mistake?

17 MR. ROBSON: Indeed.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we have that, please? Can the record show that

19 the date of the document is the 10th of August, 1994, and not the 10th of

20 October, 1994. Thank you very much.

21 You may proceed, Madam Sartorio.

22 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, as deputy commander of the army, were you aware --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.


Page 2195

1 Q. Sir, as deputy commander of the army, were you aware that there

2 was an established El Mujahedin Detachment by 1994 which was an

3 independent unit comprised of two companies and a command?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson. I'm sorry.

5 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, this harks back to the witness's earlier

6 answer when he explained that he didn't hear anything else, apart from an

7 informal discussion, between members of the Main Staff and himself at some

8 stage between 1994 and 1995, so -- my colleague also -- we also object on

9 the basis that it's a leading question.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

11 MS. SARTORIO: Well, if the witness can answer --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just respond to the objection, Madam. Forget about

13 the witness for the time being.

14 MS. SARTORIO: I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed.


17 Q. Sir, as deputy commander of the army, were you aware that there

18 were concerns expressed by corps commanders with regard to problems with

19 foreigners who came in to the army and tried to change customs and norms

20 and behaviour of the local population?

21 A. Madam, could you be more specific? What corps commanders are you

22 talking about, because the corps commanders did not have any problems with

23 this unit, if you are referring to the El Mujahid unit.

24 Q. And how do you know that corps commanders didn't have any problems

25 with this unit?

Page 2196

1 A. Because in the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 7th Corps, there were no

2 such units.

3 Q. So you were aware that there was a unit in the 3rd Corps?

4 A. Yes. I have already established that we knew that, when that unit

5 was about to be comprised within the 3rd Corps. In the reports -- we had

6 reports in early 1994 about the existence of that unit, that is.

7 Q. So when I asked you earlier about your knowledge of the unit, you

8 did know something about the unit?

9 A. I repeat. I said that it was the first time that I learned about

10 it, on the 18th of June, as did the rest of the people in the Staff, when

11 we asked that those groups of foreigners should be returned to where they

12 had come from or that a unit be set up of them within the framework of the

13 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Later, I learned about the existence of that

14 unit. I learned about that in 1994. I learned about some of the -- their

15 activities. No, I learned about the existence of the unit, but not about

16 the activities that you presented to me right now. So I didn't learn

17 about them from our meetings. I just heard that they had participated

18 together with some of the brigades of the 3rd Corps in defending parts of

19 the territory in the zone of responsibility of the 3rd Corps.

20 Q. Now, you said you learned about that in 1994, learned about some

21 of their activities. What activities did you learn about, and how did you

22 learn about these activities?

23 A. I wish to --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Sorry, that's the interpretation

25 coming.

Page 2197

1 MS. SARTORIO: We haven't -- we missed completely what the witness

2 just said. I could ask the question again, if that would help.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.


5 Q. My question was: Now, you said you learned about that in 1994,

6 learned about some of their activities. What activities did you learn

7 about, and how did you learn about these activities?

8 A. At that time in 1994, there were two parts of the Staff of the

9 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There was a smaller group that I headed in

10 the Staff in Sarajevo, and a larger group that was in Kakanj. We

11 regularly received reports, albeit in a summary form, from the various

12 corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 In one of the reports from the 3rd Corps, there was a mention of

14 the El Mujahid Detachment which, together with other brigades of the

15 3rd Corps, took part in the fighting or better to say the defence of the

16 territory of the 3rd Corps against the aggressor. I cannot recall exactly

17 which units it cooperated with, but that was the information we had.

18 And as for the documents you're showing me, perhaps we can analyse

19 a couple of sentences from it, with your leave.

20 Q. Sure, yes, that would be fine, sir, if you want to draw the

21 Court's attention to certain aspects and tell them what you want to say

22 about that, that would be appropriate. You have to first direct us to the

23 paragraph, if you would, so that everyone knows what you're referring to.

24 A. The second part on the first page --

25 Q. Which paragraph, if you could count them, please.

Page 2198

1 A. It begins with the 12th paragraph.

2 MS. SARTORIO: And I have them marked on my copy, Your Honours, so

3 I can go to it pretty quickly.

4 Q. Is that the last paragraph?

5 A. It's on page 1.

6 Q. You're talking about line 12?

7 A. Yes. It begins with: "One of such units ..." Or, rather: "One

8 such unit which exists in the municipalities of Zenica and Travnik is

9 the ..."

10 MS. SARTORIO: Right. That is the second paragraph, Your Honours,

11 the first sentence.

12 A. The entire passage was something that I learned for the first time

13 during the proofing sessions. Before that, I had no knowledge of any of

14 the content in this paragraph.

15 In the reports we received from the 3rd Corps, there was only

16 mention of a unit. There was never mention of any command or

17 establishment, and just recently you told me that there were two

18 companies. I never knew about that before I saw this paragraph.


20 Q. Are there other -- are there other comments you would like to make

21 about other sections of this document?

22 A. Yes. As I said at the beginning, I want to reiterate that this

23 was a joint report. However, it was drafted by the Minister of the

24 Interior of Zenica. It was signed by the 3rd Corps commander as well,

25 though, since he agreed with the report. This report forwards information

Page 2199

1 to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

2 to the Minister of the Interior. Therefore, this document was not sent

3 only -- could we please go back to the top?

4 In addition to being sent to the Staff of the Supreme Command, it

5 was also sent to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have ten minutes to go, madam.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. I'd like the witness to be shown a

9 videotape.

10 Can we mark this for identification, please?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it

12 please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 350, marked for

14 identification.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Videotape P06017. And there is a transcript.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MS. SARTORIO: I'd like to stop the tape. Okay. Well, actually,

19 after the next -- at the end of this speaker, I'd like to stop the tape,

20 please. It's one more line.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MS. SARTORIO: Okay, you can stop the tape, please.

23 Q. Sir, are you present at this meeting?

24 A. No, I was not, no.

25 Q. Were you aware of this meeting?

Page 2200

1 A. No, I was not.

2 Q. Could you identify persons who are in attendance at this meeting?

3 A. Based on the other things you put to me earlier, I conclude from

4 the transcript that this was a mixed delegation. On one side, there was

5 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on the other the HVO unit commands. I

6 can see that the delegations were headed by civilian commanders, or rather

7 to the right-hand side we see Mr. Ganic, who at the time was president of

8 the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina. On the left-hand side, the person

9 who spoke towards the end of the footage is Mr. Zubak who at the time was

10 vice-president of the Federation.

11 Just to remind you, in case you don't know, after the conflict

12 between the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO, with the support of

13 the Croatian Army, the Geneva Peace Accord was signed and the Federation

14 founded.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. I just want you to identify other persons at this

16 meeting, if you could.

17 A. I can only tell you about the people on the Army of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina side that I can recognise.

19 Q. Okay. Would you please do that?

20 A. The second person with a cap on his head is General Bilajac.

21 May I continue?

22 Q. Yes, please, thank you.

23 A. I just remember that the first person is Hindic Kemal, the one

24 with the moustache. The second person is Bilajac --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Madam Sartorio, who is the

Page 2201

1 first -- how does the record know who the first person is and the second

2 person is and who Ganic is, the president of the Federation?

3 MS. SARTORIO: I'll ask the witness to be more specific,

4 Your Honours, but it looks like it's now time for a break, although I'm

5 willing to continue.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't we take our break at quarter past 10.00?

7 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour, but my understanding was

8 yesterday I was told I had 2.17 as of yesterday, but if I may -- okay.

9 All right, we'll continue.

10 Q. Sir, can you identify persons on the side of the ABiH?

11 A. The person closest to us with the moustache --

12 Q. On the right --

13 A. -- is Kemal Hindic.

14 Q. On the right-hand side of the screen in front of you, the person

15 with the moustache who is closest to us.

16 A. Yes, his name is Kemal Hindic.

17 Q. And do you know the person next to him?

18 A. His name is Rifat Bilajac.

19 Q. And can you identify anyone -- the person beside him? Probably

20 not.

21 A. The person leaning against his arm is Ganic.

22 Q. That looks to be the fourth person in from the screen; is that

23 correct?

24 A. The third.

25 Q. The third person; okay. And can you identify the fourth person?

Page 2202

1 A. Next is General Delic.

2 Q. Okay. There is a person with -- the person with the hat you've

3 identified is --

4 A. Rifat Bilajac.

5 Q. Then there appears to be a person next to him with what I see is a

6 person with --

7 A. Mr. Ganic, president of the Federation at the time.

8 Q. Sir --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this the person whose face we cannot see, we

10 just see the hair?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can only see his hair, yes.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you are able to identify him as Mr. Ganic,

13 without seeing his face?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just asking, I'm just asking. Are you able to

16 identify him without seeing his face?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know what his hair looks

18 like.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is that the same person who you referred to as

20 resting on his arm or does that arm belong to the person to his right?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It belongs to the person on the

22 right side.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't belong to Ganic?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to Ganic, you are correct.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

Page 2203

1 You may proceed.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.


4 Q. And, sir, do you see General Delic also at the table?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Yes, Mr. Robson.

6 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the Defence position -- well, the

7 Defence position is that this is -- it's a difficult situation for the

8 witness to go through the list and identify witnesses. We would have no

9 objection if the Prosecution were -- if it were able to produce a suitable

10 extract or printout from the page, and then to show it to the witness at

11 some stage during the course of today, if that would assist.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

13 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour. One moment, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. May I suggest something?

15 Your Honour, may I suggest something?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll give you a chance in a second, sir.

17 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, what we could do is freeze the

18 screen and ask the witness to mark on it. No, we can't do that. A hard

19 copy, we'll make a hard copy and ask the witness to mark on it.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just find out what the witness had to say.

21 Did you want to say something, sir?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we should go on

23 with the footage, because we will see those people much better later on

24 when they address the rest of the people around the table.


Page 2204

1 MS. SARTORIO: I would just -- Your Honour, I just want the

2 witness, if he can, to identify the next speaker whose initials are RD,

3 and then I would like to proceed with the tape. And then we can go back

4 to identification, if possible.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: How does he identify RD?

6 MS. SARTORIO: I'm going to ask him if he knows who is speaking.

7 But I'd like the Court to know, before you -- who the person is before we

8 get into the whole discussion. So if we could just play a few minutes of

9 RD, ask the witness if he knows who's speaking. Then we can listen to the

10 whole thing. That would be --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're now abandoning your attempt to identify the

12 people around the table?

13 MS. SARTORIO: I think we can go back to that, time permitting,

14 but the Prosecution would like to get in the content of the next part of

15 this tape.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: As you please, ma'am. Carry on.

17 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

18 Could we start the tape?

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. SARTORIO: Can we stop the tape, please?

21 Q. Sir, can you identify who is speaking?

22 A. That is the voice of General Delic.

23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

24 May we proceed.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 2205

1 MS. SARTORIO: That's the end of this portion.

2 Your Honour, I would ask that this videotape be admitted in

3 evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The videotape is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit number 351.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Forgive me for just asking for a piece of

9 clarification, Mrs. Sartorio.

10 Where was this location and when was the meeting?

11 MS. SARTORIO: I'll ask the witness.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: And which meeting was it, if you know?

13 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.

14 Q. Sir, do you know when this meeting took place?

15 A. I don't know where -- when it took place, I don't know where it

16 took place, but judging by the composition of the delegations, I can say

17 that the two delegations are one on the part of the Army of B and H and

18 the other on the part of the HVO, or rather the other component of the

19 Armed Forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The HVO delegation is headed by

20 Mr. Zubak, who at the time was vice-president of the Federation of B and

21 H. The Army of B and H delegation is headed by Mr. Ejup Ganic who at the

22 time was president of the Federation.

23 Q. Do you know -- would you have an idea as to what year this might

24 be?

25 A. It can only be 1994, after the Washington Agreement was signed.

Page 2206

1 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I believe that's as far as we can go

2 in terms of the date and the place.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.

4 MS. SARTORIO: We ask the document be admitted in evidence.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It has been admitted.

6 MS. SARTORIO: Oh, thank you.

7 One moment, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're talking about this video clip?


10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It has been admitted.

11 MS. SARTORIO: I was under the impression -- never mind.

12 If I may ask a few more questions, Your Honours, if you would

13 indulge me, to the break.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, madam.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

16 Q. Sir, are you aware of meetings between General Delic and

17 President Izetbegovic?

18 A. Not in particular.

19 Q. Are you aware of any -- how often they communicated?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Well, sir, do you recall meeting with myself and other persons

22 from the OTP on Sunday and Monday?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you recall that we discussed a lot of issues, including --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

Page 2207

1 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, we're dealing with examination-in-chief,

2 and it would appear that prosecuting counsel is attempting to

3 cross-examine her own witness, so I raise an objection, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I'm just trying to ask the witness if

6 he can recall and reiterate the discussion that we had on certain topics.

7 It's not -- I'm not trying to impeach the witness. Under Rule 90(F), the

8 Trial Chamber has the discretion to exercise control over the mode and

9 order of interrogating witnesses and presenting evidence if it leads to --

10 if it's effective for the ascertainment of the truth, and --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madam, please ask me specific

12 questions.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. The madam was talking to me, sir,

14 at this point. She was not asking you a question. Just hold on.

15 Are you done, ma'am?

16 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.

18 You may proceed.

19 MS. SARTORIO: One moment, Your Honour.

20 Q. Sir, when I asked you about communications between General Delic

21 and Mr. Izetbegovic, do you recall what you told me?

22 A. Could you please put a specific question?

23 Q. That is my specific question. I'm asking if you recall the answer

24 that you gave to me when I asked you how -- if you knew how often

25 General Delic and President Izetbegovic communicated on a regular basis --

Page 2208

1 or communicated, excuse me.

2 A. At the time, I said that it was probably daily, whether directly

3 or over various means of communication, since the army commander was

4 duty-bound to brief on the army's activities. I did not mention the

5 frequency, though, and I spoke about the things that were supposed to take

6 place.

7 To continue, General Delic, as a member of the War Presidency, as

8 well as me occasionally, participated at the sessions. Based on the two

9 session documents that you put to me, you probably know that there were

10 over 200 different sessions in the two or three years of the war.

11 Should I go on?

12 We were witnesses to the fact that General Delic, when

13 President Izetbegovic would visit the units, escorted him. It was his

14 duty. And when we discussed this, I never meant their private contacts,

15 or rather I meant their ex officio duties in particular, the army

16 commander's duties.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, when you say, "I never meant their private

18 contacts," what do you know about their private contacts?

19 A. I don't know anything about them.

20 Q. Now, sir, I asked you yesterday the following question, and it's

21 at page 31, lines 15 to 16, on LiveNote.

22 Sorry, Your Honour, I didn't mean to interrupt you, if you were

23 going to -- okay.

24 I asked you yesterday:

25 "Sir, did you ever receive reports in 1994 and 1995 with regard to

Page 2209

1 discipline problems in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?"

2 Do you recall my question to you?

3 A. I do recall your question, but by your leave can I expand on that?

4 We did not receive information only in regards the 7th Muslim Brigade, but

5 also in respect of all units that would at certain points in time actually

6 breach their responsibility or did not honour military responsibility --

7 military discipline in their respective zones of responsibility.

8 Q. My specific question to you, however, was whether or not you

9 received reports about the 7th Muslim Brigade. I'm not asking you about

10 reports of other units. Your answer was:

11 "In any case, those of us in Sarajevo --"

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.

13 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the prosecuting counsel is now putting

14 the answer of the witness given during the proofing session.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, it's during yesterday's session.

16 MR. ROBSON: I apologise. I withdraw that objection.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


19 Q. Your response at page 31, lines 20 through 22, was:

20 "In any case, those of us in Sarajevo did not receive any specific

21 information on anything negative that would have to do with any activities

22 of the 7th Muslim Brigade."

23 Do you recall that being your answer?

24 A. Yes, but to my recollection, allow me to continue, I also said

25 that when I stayed in Zenica for the first time in September 1993, that at

Page 2210

1 that time we received information -- actually, people directly told me

2 that they were fearful of the conduct -- certain forms of conduct of

3 members of the 7th Muslim Brigade, and I adduced the example of the way in

4 which they went about their morning workouts, morning exercises, fitness

5 exercises, in the part of town where Bosniaks lived.

6 Q. Yes, my specific --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter's correction, "where

8 non-Bosniaks also lived."


10 Q. But my specific question to you is whether you received reports,

11 and yesterday you stated, as I just said, you didn't receive any specific

12 information. So did you or did you not receive specific information upon

13 which you could base your previous answer?

14 A. In the reports which we received from the 3rd Corps, there was no

15 specific information about the conduct of the 7th Brigade. I repeat that

16 I learned about this when, in September, I was in Zenica. And if my memory

17 serves me well, I also referred to the fact that the International

18 Committee of the Red Cross also exhibited interest in ascertaining the

19 actual state of affairs in the so-called "prison" in the music school.

20 Q. Now, do you recall, sir, giving a statement to an OTP investigator

21 in September of 2005?

22 A. I don't know what segment you mean. What I stated in September

23 2005?

24 Q. The first question I'm asking is if you recall being interviewed

25 by an OTP investigator which was audio-recorded.

Page 2211

1 A. I don't know which one you mean. I certainly do recall it. I

2 don't know what part you mean.

3 Q. Just I'm asking -- I'm not asking about a specific part of the

4 statement. I'm asking you whether you remember giving a statement in

5 2005, September.

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. And when you arrived in The Hague on Saturday, did you -- you were

8 given some materials to review, and part of these materials was this

9 statement; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And during the proofing session, do you recall whether or not you

12 made any changes to your statement?

13 A. No, I did not make any changes.

14 Q. And do you recall in the interview and do you recall from reading

15 your transcript that you were asked questions about the 7th Muslim

16 Brigade?

17 A. Yes, but can you please repeat what those questions were for my

18 benefit?

19 Q. Well, do you recall what you said to the investigator with regard

20 to the 7th Muslim Brigade being responsible, to a certain extent, for

21 atrocities over non-Bosniak people? Do you recall saying that to the

22 investigator?

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

24 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I know I've already objected once along

25 these lines, but if prosecuting counsel is going to put a number of these

Page 2212

1 types of questions to the witness, I question whether, in reality, she's

2 really trying to impeach her own witness. So again I object on the basis

3 that the Prosecutor is trying to lead the witness to the desired response.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

5 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I'm trying to refresh his recollection

6 to see if he recalls certain prior topics that were discussed and what he

7 discussed. I only have two more of these types of questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The only problem, Madam Sartorio, is that it seems

9 as if you're just not -- your witness is not cooperating with you, and the

10 whole situation does appear to be like you are now trying to impeach the

11 witness because he's refusing to give you the answers you probably are

12 looking for.

13 MS. SARTORIO: Well, I'm looking to put the case before the

14 Chamber. I'm not looking for specific answers, Your Honour. But I think

15 the Chamber should be apprised of all aspects of what this witness has

16 said about certain topics he talked about in court today so that

17 Your Honours can assess what to believe and what not to believe with

18 regard to all the witnesses. And it's not -- I'm not trying to designate

19 this witness as a hostile witness. I know that there are other cases in

20 the Tribunal, particularly the Milosevic case, where this was allowed to

21 be done without declaring the witness a hostile witness. And if he

22 remembers, he remembers. If he doesn't, then -- then he doesn't.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: We have in front of us his statement, so why don't

24 you just bring your witness directly to the place in the statement where

25 you want to go, and let's take it from there. Let's keep it simple.

Page 2213

1 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. But, however, I think -- I don't know if you

2 have the whole statement. Do you have the transcripts of the statement?

3 It's several transcripts. It's several hundred pages long. But I do have

4 the page number and reference.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: What we have is the witness statement dated 23rd

6 September 2005.

7 MS. SARTORIO: Right, but if you look at the last part of the

8 statement, it says that we will continue on to a tape-recording.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why don't you just put the tape-recording or

10 whatever the page is of the statement that you want to refer the witness

11 to. Let the witness see and identify it as his statement, if it is his

12 statement, and verify it through his signature, if the signature is there,

13 and refer him to the specific part of the statement that you want him to

14 talk about.

15 For purposes of the objection, we will allow that.

16 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, in terms of the --

17 Q. Sir, do you recall giving a tape-recorded statement?

18 A. Yes, I do. I gave a statement. I don't know right now what

19 statement specifically you're talking about. And I am really embarrassed

20 to hear His Honour say that we are not cooperating.

21 Q. No, His Honour -- never mind.

22 MS. SARTORIO: I'll show the witness three pages from T000-2915,

23 side A and B of a tape-recorded statement, and ask if he recalls this

24 interview.

25 Could we put that on the ELMO?

Page 2214

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are not going to

3 raise an objection right --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are not going to raise an objection, that's

5 fine. Sit down, Madam Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [No interpretation]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm getting no interpretation. I'm sorry.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we sort out the interpretation, first,

10 Madam Vidovic? I'm hearing no interpretation.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me, Your Honour? Yes.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I can hear that voice.

13 THE INTERPRETER: I cannot hear counsel now.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter can't hear you now.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Perhaps I -- well,

16 anyway, created this confusion.

17 Your Honours, if the Prosecutor could, in future, give us in

18 advance, for instance, we could have been given these parts of the

19 statement this morning, we would be grateful. I'm not going to raise an

20 objection right now to the use of this part of the statement, but we

21 should like to be able to prepare ourselves beforehand.

22 Thank you.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

24 MS. SARTORIO: That's fair, Your Honour, in the future.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, ma'am.

Page 2215

1 You do concede you haven't given the Defence this part of the

2 statement that you are now going to use?

3 MS. SARTORIO: I didn't -- they have it, Your Honour, they have

4 it, and they've been given the statement in disclosure. But --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why, then, do you say it's okay in the future?

6 MS. SARTORIO: Well, because of out of courtesy I WOULD let them

7 know this morning I was going to be going to this particular page, that's

8 all. I would try to be as cooperative as possible.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have to tell them about the page you want to

10 go to when you have disclosed the whole document?

11 MS. SARTORIO: I don't, Your Honour. I'm just saying out of

12 courtesy in the future. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Mic, please.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Okay. I'd like you to scroll down.

16 Q. Have you had a chance to read this, sir?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is being read?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 MS. SARTORIO: And could you keep scrolling down, please? The

20 next page, actually, top of the next page. Top of the next page.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio, we're five minutes beyond break

22 time. Shouldn't the --

23 MS. SARTORIO: I just have this last question, Your Honour.



Page 2216

1 Q. Sir, do you recall saying that the 7th Muslim Brigade is

2 responsible, to a certain extent, for atrocities over non-Bosniak people?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are you reading from?


5 Q. Do you recall making that statement?


7 MS. SARTORIO: It is the interpreter, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we going to get an answer?

9 A. It says here -- it is written here that I stated that the 7th

10 Muslim Brigade is partly responsible for what was happening in Zenica and

11 around Zenica.


13 Q. Can you tell us, is that -- is that your belief, sir?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

15 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I'm struggling to grasp the relevance of

16 these questions, because as far as the Defence are aware, General Delic is

17 not indicted for any acts caused or carried out by the 7th Muslim Brigade.

18 So I just wonder where the questions are leading.

19 MS. SARTORIO: I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour, and ask

20 another one, if I may, to make it easier.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you said you were asking the last

22 question before we go to break. Can we go to break or is it not

23 convenient?

24 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.

Page 2217

1 Court adjourned.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2218











11 Pages 2218-2219 redacted. Private session















Page 2220

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sartorio.


15 Q. Sir, just before the break, at page 33, lines 23 to 26, you said:

16 "It states here, it is written here, that I stated that the

17 7th Muslim Brigade is partly responsible for what was happening in Zenica

18 and around Zenica."

19 And you can see, from the transcript, the English says, "The 7th

20 Muslim Brigade is responsible to a certain extent for atrocities over

21 non-Bosniak people." My first question to you is: What is it that you

22 said to the OTP investigator? Which was it? Is this an incorrect

23 translation?

24 A. What I said is written here, which is that the 7th Muslim Brigade

25 also bears responsibility.

Page 2221

1 Q. Okay. Is that your -- sorry. Is that the end of your sentence?

2 A. Can I explain the idea? I've just confirmed what is written here.

3 Q. Yes, please do.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Just before you explain, sir: Was that the

5 end of your sentence, that what is written here, according to you, is that

6 the Muslim Brigade also bears responsibility, full stop?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the end here in the

8 transcript.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So may I continue?

11 If we are speaking about the war period, what I knew is what I

12 said, about what I knew in 1993 when I was in Zenica. When I say that the

13 7th Muslim Brigade bears certain responsibility for incorrect conduct

14 towards non-Bosniak people, that refers to the information I gained after

15 the war and what I read in the mass media.

16 Reverting to the period that we are talking about, I did not know

17 that the brigade was doing anything that was in contravention of the

18 Geneva Conventions.

19 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.

20 Your Honour, I have no further questions for the witness. We do

21 have a still photograph of the meeting, if the witness could indicate on

22 the photograph the names of the persons he can identify as present, and

23 then we'll ask that that be marked as an exhibit.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, madam.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. And in response to an earlier question

Page 2222

1 by Judge Harhoff, the Prosecution can offer information as to the source

2 of the videotape and the date of that videotape, if the Court would like

3 that.

4 The date was 13 November of 1994, and it was received from the

5 ARBiH Archives, Reference number 6 -- G, sorry, GSH3.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the videotape that shows the photograph?

7 MS. SARTORIO: The meeting, yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, ma'am.

9 Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have an objection. It

11 was the Prosecutor testifying, what the date of the footage was. They

12 should bring a witness from the Archives to testify on that. I am simply

13 objecting in the same way they objected to my questions yesterday, when

14 they said I was testifying. It is not up to the Prosecutor to introduce

15 any information on the source or the date. We will not accept any such

16 information as relevant.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

18 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, we are going to bring in an archivist

19 who will confirm that date. I just wanted to bring it to the Court's

20 attention to put it into context, since we can't call the archive person

21 until later.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So should we then mark the photograph for

23 identification?

24 MS. SARTORIO: Not the photograph.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The videotape itself?

Page 2223

1 MS. SARTORIO: No, the remark can be disregarded by the Court,

2 about the date of the videotape, if it so wishes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 Objection upheld.

5 Madam Sartorio - sorry, just before you stand up - you have asked

6 that a photograph be placed on the ELMO, ma'am. Are you sitting down or

7 are you --

8 MS. SARTORIO: Sorry, I was talking to my senior trial attorney.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine. It's just that your opposite number

10 was standing already and I wanted to be sure that you are finished before

11 I allow him to cross-examine.

12 MS. SARTORIO: I am finished, Your Honour, as soon as the witness

13 can write on the photograph the persons he can identify. That's what --

14 that's what we're waiting for.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first person on the photograph

16 is Kemal Hindic.


18 Q. Could you please write that on the photograph right there, just

19 write it, please?

20 A. [Marks]

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we give the witness a pen, please, that can

22 write?

23 A. [Marks]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Divjak, do you think you can print so that we

25 are able to read, rather than cursive?

Page 2224

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, but may I write it in

2 Cyrillic?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mean you are able to -- you can't print in

4 Latin? Okay. Do what is best for you.

5 A. [Marks] These are the people I can recognise.


7 Q. Is Mr. Ganic in the photo? I thought you indicated he was in the

8 photo in your testimony. Did you mark that? If you know.

9 A. His Honour asked whether I can recognise him only by his hair.

10 Therefore, I'm not sure. But I did see the entire footage, and I know

11 that Ganic addressed everyone at the meeting. That is why I said that

12 between Mr. Bilajac and Mr. Delic, it is Mr. Ganic.

13 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I believe the witness -- you have the

14 testimony and the photograph. I would like him to put who he thinks is

15 Mr. Ganic on the photograph.

16 If you would, sir.

17 A. [Marks]

18 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. We move that --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

20 MS. SARTORIO: -- that this be marked as an exhibit.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The photograph is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 352.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MS. SARTORIO: No further questions, Your Honour.

Page 2225

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the photo now. Thank you very much,

2 Madam Sartorio.

3 Mr. Robson.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:

5 Q. Good morning, General Divjak. My name is Nicholas Robson, and

6 together with my colleagues, we represent General Rasim Delic.

7 I'd like to start my cross-examination just briefly dealing with

8 the situation in Sarajevo at the start of the war.

9 Now, as deputy commander of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

10 you were primarily based in Sarajevo during the war, weren't you?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that from May 1992, Sarajevo was

13 placed under a siege by Serb forces?

14 A. Partially as of mid-April 1992, and completely as of May 1992.

15 Q. And from the date of the complete siege, if I can call it that,

16 the siege lasted until the end of the war; is that so?

17 A. Yes, it is. We believe it lasted for 1.260 days or 44 months.

18 Q. From May 1992, the time of the complete blockade, it's correct,

19 isn't it, that the sending of information and orders from the Main Staff

20 to other parts of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina became very

21 difficult?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, we know that you were interviewed by members of the Office of

24 the Prosecution in September 2005. Do you recall discussing with those

25 persons some of the communication problems that were experienced by the

Page 2226

1 Main Staff in Sarajevo?

2 A. In Sarajevo itself and outside of Sarajevo with the subordinate

3 units which, for example, were under a siege such as the ones in

4 Srebrenica, Gorazde, it was very difficult to communicate with Mostar as

5 well, for the simple reason that the Army of the Republic of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have modern communication equipment. We often

7 used the simple field telephone connection.

8 Q. If I can pause you there, General, you mentioned that you didn't

9 have modern communication equipment. It's right that the Army of Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina had to rely upon radio amateurs to send information and to

11 communicate with some of the places you mentioned; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Also, is it true to say that communication to the Main Staff in

14 Sarajevo could also be disrupted by the weather conditions in place at a

15 particular time?

16 A. Due to poor weather conditions and also because there was

17 interference, technical interference, on the part of the aggressor.

18 Q. Is this radio communication that we're talking about that could be

19 affected by weather and interference by the aggressor?

20 A. It had to do with all means of communications, but first and

21 foremost radio communication.

22 Q. And as a result of these difficulties, it's true, isn't it, that a

23 report could start to be received at the Main Staff and then suddenly it

24 would stop because of disruption?

25 A. There were such cases in particular when radio amateurs were

Page 2227

1 involved, when they conveyed messages from Srebrenica or Gorazde.

2 Q. So the point that I was trying to make was that on occasions at

3 the Main Staff, a situation could arise whereby a report would start to be

4 received and then suddenly it would halt before the whole report being

5 transmitted or being received at the Main Staff; is that so?

6 A. I'm not familiar with that detail. I was not in a position to

7 know. It is a technical matter, and those who were in charge of that can

8 tell you better.

9 Q. Okay, thank you. General, you have testified previously in 1997

10 during the Zejnil Delalic case; is that right?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. If I could refer you to testimony that you gave during that case

13 on the 28th of October, 1997. And the reference is page 8.437, line 21.

14 You said that one of the first targets of the aggression was the

15 telecommunication system. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, it is. I also believe I stated then, and I can confirm it

17 now, that out of ten radio relay devices that used to be controlled by the

18 government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, first the JNA and then

19 the VRS occupied those positions, thus effectively cutting off the

20 government's connections to the rest of the country and abroad. What we

21 were left with, in terms of the government, were only three radio relay

22 hubs.

23 Q. During the Delalic case, you went on to say, at line 23:

24 "It was not possible to use the electronics communication to pass

25 information in a timely fashion to the subordinate staffs. It happened

Page 2228

1 that certain information or orders would take several days to get through

2 via messengers."

3 Is that right, what you said during the trial in 1997?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Do I understand you correctly to mean by that that messengers were

6 used to deliver reports from and to the Main Staff headquarters by hand?

7 A. When I stated this, what I had in mind is exactly what you put

8 now.

9 Q. And for those messengers to get to and from the Main Staff

10 headquarters in Sarajevo, is it correct that they would have to cross the

11 Sarajevo airfield, which was an extremely dangerous place, particularly

12 until the tunnel was built?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. So, General, would you agree with me that during the war, it was a

15 real problem for the Main Staff headquarters to obtain information from

16 subordinate units in the field about what was going on?

17 A. You are right when you say that.

18 Q. And is it correct that these difficulties with communication had a

19 detrimental impact on the ability to command and control Bosnian Army

20 units in the field?

21 A. It is correct. One of the aggravating factors that had to be

22 counted on by the army was the lack of up-to-date means of communication.

23 Therefore, it often happened that orders and reports would be delayed or

24 late and would arrive on occasion even after the time they envisaged for

25 something to be done had already lapsed.

Page 2229

1 Q. And on that point, yesterday in your testimony you described how

2 information came in to the Main Staff every day. Bearing in mind the

3 conditions that you've just described, is it fair to say that it was

4 extremely difficult for the Main Staff to receive clear and accurate

5 information from subordinate units in the field each day?

6 A. When I mentioned the reports, it only had to do with corps

7 reports. The Staff was in no position to receive information from its

8 subordinate units, from brigades or detachments, for example. But even

9 that could not be fully relied upon in terms of time and when something

10 was being dispatched. Some activity may have already taken place without

11 the Staff knowing or being able to react to it.

12 Q. And when you said, "but even that could not be fully relied upon,"

13 are you talking there about the corps reports?

14 A. Yes, I'm talking about the reports coming from the corps. In view

15 of its limited technical ability, the corps reports would boil down to the

16 most relevant and important information only. They would not provide any

17 further details about such information.

18 Q. Now, would you agree that the problems with communication was one

19 of the main reasons for the Bosnian Army to establish a forward command

20 post in Zenica?

21 A. The problem you mentioned, that is something that we at the Staff

22 were aware of as early as 1992. It was our position that the Staff would

23 have to be moved to Igman as early as September. However, it was not done

24 until a certain time towards the end of 1993. With a view to handle the

25 defence more efficiently, it was told that the Staff should move outside

Page 2230

1 Sarajevo.

2 Q. Now, I'll come to the places where the Staff moved to in a moment,

3 but before I do so, if I could deal with another matter.

4 Yesterday, you were asked by the Prosecution the date by which the

5 organisational structure of the ARBiH was functioning and operating. Do

6 you remember being asked that?

7 A. Perhaps not, but I wasn't asked about whether it was functional

8 and operational. I said that the TO was established on the 9th. In June,

9 it was renamed to become the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And until June

10 1993, it carried out combat tasks all over Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was

11 organised at that time as well. As to whether it was functional, that is

12 debatable, perhaps not in this courtroom but among experts.

13 Q. Just to clarify, General, where you say the TO was established on

14 the 9th, that was the 9th of April, 1992; is that right?

15 A. The 9th of April, 1992. It was when the TO Staff was formed, and

16 it was then that the TO Staff established communication with municipal TO

17 staffs in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 I also said, I believe, that it managed to establish communication

19 with 76 or 77 municipal TOs in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. Now, concerning the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you've

21 mentioned, "As to whether it was functional, that is debatable." Is it

22 correct to say that it took a considerable period of time for the Bosnian

23 Army to establish itself and to create all the different units at various

24 levels?

25 A. When we are talking about organising, it was organised until the

Page 2231

1 end of 1992. It was comprised of independent detachments, units and

2 brigades. Five corps were formed as well. However, the basic problem

3 were the lack of materiel and equipment needed for those units to be able

4 to carry out their tasks.

5 However, during that one year, irrespective of the fact whether it

6 was functional or not, it was sufficient to stop the aggressor's attacks

7 and intentions they had, and they were stopped at the beginning of the

8 war.

9 Q. General, just returning back to the formation of the units of the

10 Bosnian Army, is it correct that you, yourself, were involved in the

11 formation of brigades during November 1992?

12 A. Please explain. Why are you referring to November 1992, in

13 particular? I believe the brigades were formed in June and July 1992, not

14 in November.

15 Q. Well, General, if I could refer you to your testimony during the

16 Delalic case which you gave on the 28th of October, 1997. And the

17 reference is page 8.461, line 21.

18 You were asked about the formation of the brigades, and your

19 response was:

20 "But the brigades were in the process of being formed, because one

21 of my main tasks which I received on the 2nd of November, 1992, from the

22 Supreme Command was to assist in forming brigades in Neretvica and

23 Jablanica."

24 Is it right that you were --

25 A. Not all of the brigades, but those particular brigades in that

Page 2232

1 particular area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it is correct. At the time with

2 the people that were there, we attempted to merge the detachments, units

3 and battalions which were in existence so as to be able to form a defence

4 staff as well as brigade commands and its units.

5 In the meantime, the corps in Sarajevo, Zenica, Tuzla and Bihac

6 had been formed. In late November and early December, the 4th Corps was

7 formed in Mostar. That was not in existence previously.

8 Q. Thank you, General.

9 MR. ROBSON: If I can return back to IKM [Realtime transcript read

10 in error "EKM"] Zenica that I was discussing earlier, could I please show

11 the witness Exhibit 245.

12 Q. While we're waiting for the document to appear, if I could just

13 explain that this is an order from Sefer Halilovic, dated the 28th of

14 April, 1993.

15 So, first of all, General, you see the heading of this document?

16 A. Yes, of course. It is the Staff of the Supreme Command, the 24th

17 of April, 1993. This is an order for the members of the Staff of the

18 Supreme Command to go out in free territory, indicating the actual names

19 from the people of the Staff and the Minister of Defence, which are to set

20 up a forward command post in Zenica.

21 Q. Thank you, General. If we could refer to page 2, the part which

22 shows the signature.

23 Could you confirm for us there that it states that it is -- the

24 name at the bottom is "Sefer Halilovic." However, if we look to the left,

25 and we can see four initials there, we see the abbreviation "DJ." Do you

Page 2233

1 see that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Is it correct, General, that you signed this order on behalf of

4 General Halilovic?

5 A. Yes, it is, and the "DJ" here indicates that I wrote it. So the

6 initials -- the first initials are of the person who writes the document,

7 and the second initials are of the typist. Every document, every military

8 document, has to indicate its author and its typist. And as for this part

9 which says "For the Chief," I signed it on his authority.

10 Q. And if we could please return back to page one, and it's point 2

11 that I'm interested in with a list of names.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. General, would you agree with me that the men named in this order

14 were the most educated military officers from the Main Staff of the

15 Bosnian Army, or certain among them?

16 A. Yes, I would. They are the ranks of the most educated officers,

17 of military specialists, for the duties assigned to them, which they were

18 to discharge in Zenica.

19 Q. It's correct, is it not, General, that General Siber was in

20 command of IKM Zenica?

21 A. Well, you can't see that from this here.

22 Q. You can't see it from this document, General, but did you know was

23 General Siber at Zenica IKM?

24 A. Not at the forward command post. Siber was issued the task -- I

25 don't know the details -- to coordinate activities in the Zenica area

Page 2234

1 during the conflict between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

2 forces of the HVO, but I don't know much about that.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, sorry.


5 MS. SARTORIO: I don't mean to interrupt the flow here, but can

6 the record be corrected? "IKM," it's an "I." I think everybody agrees

7 with that.

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, yes.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I did notice that. Maybe if

10 you could refer to it as "IKM" rather than "EKM."

11 MR. ROBSON: Oh, yes, yes, Your Honour.

12 Q. Okay. During your evidence, General, you've mentioned that a

13 command post was established at Kakanj. I'd like to ask you some

14 questions about that, if I may.

15 Could we please show the witness Exhibit 279. And while we're

16 waiting for it to come up on the screen, if I can just explain that this

17 is an order from Rasim Delic to all administrations, dated the 26th of

18 November, 1993.

19 General, please, could you look at the first three paragraphs? The

20 first one begins: "In accordance with the needs of the situation in the

21 BH theatre of war ..."

22 A. Yes, I can see it. This is for a planned relocation of a part of

23 the Staff of the Supreme Command to free territory, and the chief of the

24 Main Staff of the Armed Forces and chiefs of administration are to

25 immediately begin organisational, professional, material preparations to

Page 2235

1 carry out this task, and the team is set up in order to prepare the

2 facilities and the area for a forward command post.

3 Q. As one of the deputy commanders, were you familiar with this

4 order?

5 A. Not in its written form, as a document, but I was aware of the

6 commander's decision for a command post of the Supreme Command Staff to be

7 set up outside Sarajevo.

8 Q. Now, although this document does not refer to Kakanj, was it well

9 known amongst the Main Staff that the command post which would be

10 established would be located at Kakanj?

11 A. At the exact moment when this was ordered, I don't think so,

12 because they were given the task to choose the post -- the position of a

13 new forward command post of the Supreme Command.

14 Q. In any event, we know that a location was selected at Kakanj; is

15 that so?

16 A. That is so, excellent conditions were created there for

17 accommodating the command post of the Supreme Command Staff.

18 Q. And just for clarification, at the time that the command post was

19 set up, Enver Hadzihasanovic was the chief of the Main Staff; is that so?

20 A. No, he was not the commander of the Main Staff, the chief of the

21 Main Staff. As far as I know, Sefer Halilovic was still the chief of the

22 Main Staff at that time, to the best of my knowledge. So as far as I can

23 remember. It doesn't mean that I am necessarily right.

24 MR. ROBSON: If we can put this document away.

25 Could we please refer to --

Page 2236

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Do you have the end of

2 this document so that I could see?

3 MR. ROBSON: Please, if the General could be shown the second

4 page. I apologise.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's perfectly all right.


7 Q. So we can see from this document, General, that it was signed by

8 Rasim Delic; is that so?

9 A. Well, yes, it is signed by him, but allow me -- you cannot gather

10 from this document who the chief of the Main Staff is, and I still believe

11 that at the time it was still Sefer Halilovic.

12 MR. ROBSON: If we can move to the next document, Exhibit 281.

13 This is an order from General Delic dated the 16th of February, 1994, to

14 the chiefs of Administration of the ARBiH. And I apologise for the

15 quality of the B/C/S version.

16 Q. Do you see this? Can you make out the document, General?

17 A. Just very unclear. If you can make my work easier, perhaps you

18 could read out portions for me, because I can hardly make out anything.

19 Q. I'll do that, General. Before I come to the content of the

20 document, perhaps, please, if we could look at the second page to see --

21 to confirm who it is from.

22 A. This was also signed by the army commander, Rasim Delic.

23 Q. General, if I can refer you back to the first page and the first

24 paragraph. It's the section that begins:

25 "Because of the needs personally observed in the liberated

Page 2237

1 territories, the requirement for further command of armed combat ...", et

2 cetera, et cetera, "it is necessary for the VK OS Staff to remain in the

3 field."

4 Do you see that paragraph?

5 A. Under "(a)" it says:

6 "Deputies and assistant commanders in accordance with the

7 commander's decision."

8 And then "(b)": "They are to be deployed in the general area of

9 Kakanj, Binjezevo, Zenica, the Staff of Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

10 operations department of ... preparations for different operations --"

11 Q. Before we go into the details, I'd just like to clarify something

12 in that first paragraph that you read. Where it says "VK OS Staff," is

13 that the same as the Main Staff or the SVK?

14 A. It is not the same. The Main Staff refers just to the structures

15 of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the Supreme Command Staff

16 refers to the civilian and military leadership, and that staff, in

17 addition to members of the army, commanders sent deputies, perhaps two or

18 three assistants, also comprised representatives of the Ministry of the

19 Interior and some other factors, I believe also the civilian protection

20 minister. The Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina consisted of the

21 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Ministry of the Interior, of Civilian

22 Protection, and of other defence entities or factors.

23 Q. If we look at the paragraph underneath the one that I've just read

24 to you or referred to, there it states:

25 "We should repeat once again the well-known fact that the Supreme

Page 2238

1 Command, the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is

2 located in Sarajevo, and its members, if judged necessary, in the field."

3 And then the order goes on at part B to specify where the organs

4 of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina Staff and the Administrations are to

5 be deployed; is that right? We can see that it states that they are to be

6 deployed in the wider sector of Kakanj, Binjezevo village and Zenica.

7 A. That is correct, what you have just said.

8 Q. So would you agree that this order is, in effect, an order

9 continuing KM Kakanj? In other words, it's an order that KM Kakanj is to

10 continue fulfilling its function?

11 A. Yes, the command post was definitely set up of the Staff of the

12 Supreme Command in Kakanj, with the possibility of its efficient

13 functioning and not as previously, as up to that point, as theretofore.

14 Q. And it's right, isn't it, and you mentioned this a little earlier,

15 that amongst the organs deployed within KM Kakanj is the Operations Centre

16 which was responsible for the planning, preparation, organisation,

17 monitoring and commanding of combat operations; is that so?

18 A. That is so.

19 Q. Now, General, I wonder if you can help us clarify the difference

20 between an IKM and KM Kakanj. Would you agree with me that an IKM is just

21 a temporary location which the ARBiH used for a short period of time or as

22 long as necessary for it to fulfill a specific function?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Similarly, an IKM would only be staffed with the minimum number of

25 officers necessary for it to carry out its task or objective?

Page 2239

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. In contrast to an IKM, is it right that KM Kakanj was established

3 on a long-term basis, so from December 1993 up until the end of the war in

4 1995?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. And also in the case of KM Kakanj, the majority of the officers

7 from the Main Staff were relocated there as well?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that, and this must be

10 following the establishment of KM Kakanj, a smaller group was in Sarajevo

11 and there was a larger group in Kakanj. Is that --

12 A. Yes, that is true.

13 Q. If I can focus on the smaller group in Sarajevo, would you agree

14 with me that once the majority of the Main Staff relocated to Kakanj, the

15 role of the Operations Centre in Sarajevo was greatly reduced?

16 A. Yes, I would.

17 MR. ROBSON: If the witness could please be shown document D240.

18 While we're waiting for it to appear on the screen, this document

19 is a report dated the 15th of February, 1994, from the Operations Centre

20 at Sarajevo to the Chief of the Main Staff, Hadzihasanovic.

21 Q. Perhaps, first of all, we could start by -- well, first of all,

22 General, do you see this document and the date that it bears?

23 A. The 15th of February, 1994, Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

24 Supreme Command Staff of the Armed Forces, Operations Command Centre in

25 Sarajevo.

Page 2240

1 MR. ROBSON: And if we could please look to page 2 just to confirm

2 who the document is from. It's the same page, the same in B/C/S.

3 A. Yes, it is signed by Zicro Suljevic, who was in the Operations

4 Centre in Sarajevo.

5 MR. ROBSON: If we can turn back to the first page. It's the

6 second paragraph that I'm interested in.

7 Q. Now, General, what this letter says, from Mr. Suljevic, is:

8 "I held a meeting with the remaining OCK in Sarajevo. Fehim --"

9 A. Commanding, of command.

10 Q. "Fehim, illegible, and Zineta Mehovic are doing the regular work.

11 They are working on filing the written documents from 1993. Paravalic is

12 writing his memoirs and newspaper articles for "Oslobodjenje."

13 Milo Loncarevic is in his apartment. He is not engaged anywhere and is

14 working on relocating to the territory of Croatia. Sila Dzambasovic

15 sometimes comes over to the SDK when Paravalic needs the text of his

16 memoirs or for the newspapers retyped."

17 First of all, General, do you know who all of those men are who

18 are mentioned in this document?

19 A. Yes, I do know.

20 Q. And is it correct to say that they all worked in the Operations

21 Centre at the Command in Sarajevo?

22 A. Yes, they did, it is correct.

23 Q. Would you agree with me that this document shows that those men

24 working in the Operations Centre, in the centre, had very little to do?

25 One was writing his memoirs and the other stayed at home in his apartment.

Page 2241

1 A. Well, it seems to be so, according to this report here.

2 Q. And two of the other men were carrying out filing duties, filing

3 documents from 1993; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that was their duty, to file documents. These were the

5 people from the typist pool who were actually working on documents, their

6 typing and filing.

7 Q. Would you agree with me that this document reflects the fact that

8 in the Operations Centre at Sarajevo, the officers based there did not

9 have a great deal of work to carry out?

10 A. There was as much work as was requested from us to do from the

11 command post in Kakanj.

12 Q. And then, finally, before we leave this document, if we can look

13 at the third paragraph down, it says:

14 "Otherwise, the work of other organs in this building is also

15 disorganized; they come to work and leave as they please."

16 Does that sentence reflect the situation occurring in other organs

17 within the Command in Sarajevo?

18 A. Well, not -- not necessarily, but a report of -- this kind of a

19 report from Zicro Suljevic comes as a surprise to me, because he had been

20 appointed building commander already in February or March 1993.

21 MR. ROBSON: Thank you. I've finished with that document.

22 I'd now like to turn to a different --

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you --

24 MR. ROBSON: Yes, Your Honour. I tender it for admission.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 2242

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 353.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MR. ROBSON: Okay.

5 Q. Turning to a different issue, General, I'd now like to ask you

6 about the appointment of General Delic on the 8th of June, 1993.

7 MR. ROBSON: And in this context if we could please show the

8 witness Exhibit 315.

9 While we're waiting for the document to appear, I can explain that

10 this document is the minutes of the 203rd Presidency session that took

11 place on the 8th of June, 1993. Please, could we turn to page 2 of both

12 the English and B/C/S documents.

13 Q. First of all, General, can you help us? Does this look to you as

14 if these are minutes of a Presidency session on the 8th of June, 1993?

15 A. Well, in view of the title, it does say, "Minutes of the 203rd

16 Session."

17 Q. Now, about the middle of the page in the B/C/S version, can we see

18 that this session started at 11.00 a.m. that day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then if we look underneath, we can see the list of the names

21 of the members of the Presidency that attended the session; is that right?

22 A. Yes, but with lots of crossings out, lots of names crossed out.

23 Obviously, the list had been prepared beforehand, prior to the session

24 itself. And why am I saying this? Because at that time, Fikret Abdic --

25 neither Fikret Abdic nor Dr. Nenad Kecmanovic were members of the

Page 2243

1 Presidency, and you can see that prime minister was Haris Silajdzic and

2 not Jure Pelivan.

3 Q. Okay. We can see from this document that Sefer Halilovic

4 attended. Is that in his capacity as an extended member of the

5 Presidency?

6 A. Well, in the War Presidency, the commander of the Territorial

7 Defence Staff is, by virtue of his office, also a member of the War

8 Presidency.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. You're welcome.

11 Q. Now, on the same page in the B/C/S version, it sets out the agenda

12 of the session. But if we can move to the next page, page 3 of the

13 English version, to see what those points were.

14 For some reason --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The next page starts at item 2.

16 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, for some reason I've got -- it

17 says, "Document," but it's -- we'll have to go back to the prior page.

18 It's point 1 I'm interested in.

19 Q. General, we can see that the first item listed on the agenda

20 was: "Organisational and personnel changes in the Republic of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina Armed Forces"; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I believe we started back at quarter to

24 11.00 -- sorry, quarter to 10.00. I'm just wondering if this is an

25 appropriate moment to take a break.

Page 2244

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: How long are you going to be?

2 MR. ROBSON: We're likely to be a little while with this document,

3 or certainly this issue.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then if it is convenient to you, it will be

5 convenient for the Chamber.

6 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at half past

8 12.00.

9 Court adjourned.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson.


14 Q. General, we were dealing with the minutes of the Presidency

15 meeting. If I could now show you page 3 in the Bosnian document and page

16 4 in English.

17 If we could scroll to the top of the page in the Bosnian, please,

18 and similarly in the English.

19 General, can we see here that once again this page confirms that

20 the Presidency session began at 1100 hours, 11.00 a.m. on the 8th of June?

21 And if I could just refer you to the top right-hand corner of that

22 document.

23 A. It says "1100 hours" and the 8th of June.

24 Q. And again underneath we can see who the members of the -- who the

25 members are at the session?

Page 2245

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then if we scroll down the document, would you agree that what

3 it shows on this page is the minutes, what was discussed by the various

4 persons attending the session?

5 If we can perhaps turn to the next page in B/C/S just to confirm

6 that.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, if we can please turn to page 6 in the English document and

9 page 7 in the B/C/S. If we could scroll down the page back to where we

10 were in English, please.

11 Now, I'm not sure exactly where this appears in the B/C/S version,

12 so please bear with me, but in the English document, in the bottom

13 quarter, we can see that following the final comment from --

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, but we are

15 unable to hear interpretation into B/C/S.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Interpretation into B/C/S, please.


18 Q. General, can you hear me?

19 A. Yes, I can.

20 Q. Okay. So in the English version, I'm interested in the bottom

21 quarter of this document. I'm not certain where it appears on the B/C/S

22 version. I think it should be at the top of this page, if we can scroll

23 up, please.

24 Can you see there that after the final minute of what was said by

25 a person attending the session, in this case Sefer Halilovic, you can see

Page 2246

1 there that it says: "Resumption at 1400 hours." Do you see that? I'm

2 told that actually appears on the previous page in the B/C/S, so perhaps

3 if we can just go back, please, on the B/C/S version, on the bottom.

4 Would you agree with me, General, that after the entry relating to

5 Sefer, it states there: "Resumption at 1400 hours"?

6 A. Yes. Sefer said, "Nobody will take the rifle from my hand, and I

7 do not accept the proposals without the opinion of the Staff.

8 "Resumption at 2.00."

9 Q. If we can turn to the next page in the Bosnian version, please.

10 So following the resumption of the session at 2.00, can we see

11 here an entry under "Alija"? And then if we can turn to the next page in

12 the English version. I apologise that the two documents are not

13 particularly synchronised.

14 We can see, General, can't we, that after that entry for Alija,

15 and in English I'm referring to about a quarter of the way down the page,

16 that a vote took place? It states: "Voting results. They are all for

17 the decision."

18 Do you see that in the Bosnian version? It should be about the

19 middle of the page.

20 A. We would have to go further down to see what the president said.

21 Q. Well, before we go further down, General, would you agree with me

22 that there is an entry there that says: "Voting results: They are all

23 for the decision," and underneath it states: "Halilovic - abstention from

24 voting"?

25 A. Not in my text. However, in my text it says that

Page 2247

1 Alija Izetbegovic explained that Divjak had said that Sefer should not be

2 changed. And then it says that Siber seconded that proposal as well.

3 MR. ROBSON: If we can please go down in the B/C/S version. It's

4 the middle section. Exactly.

5 Q. Do you read that -- do you see that section, General, which has

6 just been highlighted?

7 A. That part is missing. We would have to go down, further down.

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, with the Court's permission, it is a

9 poor-quality document on the screen, could I please show the witness a

10 hard copy?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means, if there is no objection from the

12 opposite side.

13 MS. SARTORIO: No objection, Your Honour.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says that all were in favour,

15 apart from Halilovic, who abstains.


17 Q. And does it also say "voting results" just before that?

18 A. The sentence before that reads: "Sefer," under 1, "read the

19 report for the 10th Mountain Brigade, Musan Topalovic." And, second, he

20 informed about a football game in Dobrinje. As stated here, it can

21 correspond to a vote taking place based on a report submitted by the

22 commander in charge before that time.

23 Q. And, again, if you could just read out the part after that,

24 please.

25 A. Item 2: "Situation Gorazde."

Page 2248

1 Q. So, General, would you agree with me that from this document, we

2 can see that the members of the Presidency have taken a vote about

3 something?

4 A. Yes. But the way it can be read from the minutes, I can only

5 suppose or guess what the decision they voted on actually was.

6 Q. Okay. If we can just go down the page a little, do you see an

7 entry under where it says "Pejanovic," do you see where it says: "Sefer

8 tendered his oral resignation. The president wants it in writing"?

9 A. It says: "Sefer orally submitted his resignation. The president

10 wanted to have it in writing. The rest was against."

11 Q. And then underneath that, do you see it states: "Hand-over

12 between Sefer and Rasim Delic will be done during the day"?

13 A. Yes, and also members of the commission are mentioned, with me

14 included.

15 Q. Yes. Would you agree with me, General, that the decision that has

16 taken place after the Presidency session resumed at 2.00 p.m. was the

17 decision on whether to appoint General Delic as commander of the Main

18 Staff?

19 A. Yes, that was the Presidency's decision, to appoint General Delic

20 commander of the Army of the Republic of B and H.

21 Q. And would you agree with me that it wouldn't be a simple task to

22 suddenly appoint a commander of the Main Staff during wartime? That is a

23 matter that would require some discussion and consideration; is that so?

24 A. Do you mean that it was up to General Delic to give it some

25 thought or was it up to us in the Staff?

Page 2249

1 Q. Well, we can see that you were appointed as a member of a

2 hand-over commission. Is that right, do you remember being appointed as a

3 member of the hand-over commission?

4 A. I remember fully well that I was made a member of the commission,

5 together with Mr. Muslimovic and Dr. Konjicija.

6 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that the purpose of a hand-over

7 commission being appointed that day was so that the commission could sit

8 and consider and discuss relevant issues relating to the hand-over? Is

9 that so?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And after the commission had carried out those discussions, it was

12 then supposed to report back to the commanders' collegium?

13 A. Yes, and it did so.

14 MR. ROBSON: Now, if we could put this document to one side for a

15 moment, I would -- I would like to refer the witness to PT -- Prosecution

16 document PT1195.

17 For the purposes of the Trial Chamber, if I can explain that this

18 document we're about to see is an extract from General Divjak's diary.

19 Now, the relevant part that I'm interested in is in the bottom

20 half of --

21 MS. SARTORIO: I'm sorry. May I object?

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Sartorio.

23 MS. SARTORIO: According to our record, it looks like this is from

24 another person's diary. I don't know if my learned colleague made a ...

25 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, it's our understanding that this is

Page 2250

1 General Divjak's diary, and I'm sure he can tell us whether or not it is.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my diary, an excerpt from it.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


5 Q. So, General, the part of the diary I'm interested in is in the

6 bottom, at the bottom third. It's spread across the screen, so you'll

7 have to bear with me.

8 If we can just start at the part which has the red highlighter,

9 the highlighted section. Is it correct that it states there: "Meeting,

10 summoned to president"?

11 A. That is correct, this is stated in the diary.

12 Q. And can you recall, General, is this your note of what happened --

13 or your -- is this your note of your involvement in the events that took

14 place at the Presidency on the 8th of June, 1993?

15 A. Not in the Presidency, itself, but in contact with the president

16 of the Presidency.

17 Q. Yes. So under the heading "Meeting, summoned to the president,"

18 it states there:

19 "Delivery and examination of proposals for staff changes."

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 MR. ROBSON: If we could scroll across to the right-hand side of

23 this document, please.

24 Q. For this particular entry, General, we can see there what looks to

25 be two timings, 13.50 - 1400 hours. Do you see that?

Page 2251

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. So, General, is it correct to say that you were summoned to the

3 Presidency or to the president to examine proposals for staff changes at

4 some time between 1.50 and 2.00 p.m. on the 8th of June?

5 A. Yes. The president asked for me to come, and handed me over four

6 pages containing a proposal that the army commander, chief of staff,

7 deputies and certain commanders of the Corps be retired or awarded a

8 higher rank.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask for clarification.

10 Isn't this the document that talks of, in the previous page, of a

11 resumption of the meeting at 2.00, or am I thinking of a different

12 document?

13 MR. ROBSON: It's a different document, I believe, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much. I'm sorry.

15 MR. ROBSON: Now, if we could scroll back across, please, to the

16 left-hand side of the diary again.

17 Q. Having told us, General, that you received four pages containing a

18 proposal, if we can look at the next entry, it states: "Meeting with

19 Muslimovic"; is that right?

20 A. Could we conclude with the first part? We shouldn't move on

21 without dealing with the first part in its entirety.

22 Q. Certainly, General. I apologise.

23 A. I received a summons in front of Izetbegovic's office --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The

25 President Izetbegovic actually handed me a paper.

Page 2252

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- stating, "Have a look at this and

2 tell me what you think," so I did. I said that Sefer Halilovic should not

3 be dismissed from the duty of commander. And the president asked me why.

4 I said, "I have no information as to what Mr. Delic did during the year of

5 the war," to which Mr. Izetbegovic responded by saying that he organised

6 58 companies for special-purpose production. I didn't know about that.

7 However, some other ideas went through my head at the time, but I did not

8 share them with him.

9 As for the other proposals, I was against them. This entire

10 episode lasted for only six or seven minutes. Do bear that in mind,

11 please. I was against, for example, the 6th Corps being formed, and I was

12 against certain officers to be promoted to the rank of general. It all

13 took place within the six or seven minutes, and I wrote down "1350 to

14 1400".

15 Q. And then, General, just if we can cast our minds back to the last

16 document, we know from the last -- from the minutes of the Presidency

17 session that the Presidency session resumed at 1400 hours. Do you have

18 recollection of the Presidency session? Well, let me rephrase that.

19 What I'd like to go back to, General, as I indicated earlier, was

20 the next entry in this diary. Do you see the part that says: "Meeting

21 with Muslimovic"?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Could you read out to us what it says underneath, please?

24 A. "I was informed by the commission in charge of the hand-over of

25 duties." That's all it says.

Page 2253

1 Q. Now, you were a member of that hand-over commission, you've told

2 us. If we can scroll across to the right-hand side of the document, we

3 can see again two timings. It says "1650" -- sorry, "1615 - 1645". Do

4 you see that?

5 A. Yes. That is the time when the commission was being discussed.

6 Q. And if we can go back over to the left-hand side of the page to

7 the next entry, can you read out for us what that says, General?

8 A. "Commission discussion concerning Halilovic's dismissal."

9 Q. And, again, if we can have a look at the --

10 A. I think it says "Sefer Halilovic."

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we get the English part of this, what has just

12 been referred to?

13 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, it appears on the page --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says the commission's talk or

15 discussions with Sefer Halilovic.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not discussing his dismissal.


18 Q. And again, General, if we can please take a look at the right-hand

19 side of your diary entry. So you've told us that there was commission

20 talk or discussions with Sefer Halilovic. Under this entry, we again can

21 see two timings, "1650 - 1715". Does this entry mean that the hand-over

22 commission met with Sefer Halilovic between these two times?

23 A. The commission meeting with Sefer Halilovic lasted for 25 minutes,

24 from 1650 until 1715.

25 Q. And, General, while we're still on this side of the page, can we

Page 2254

1 see that the next entry underneath, "1750", it says there -- well, let's

2 stay on this page.

3 The next entry, General, could you read out for us what that says?

4 A. It says: "Commanders collegium meeting."

5 Q. And, again, if we could please have a look at the right-hand side.

6 Is it correct, General, that the timings of that commanders collegium

7 meeting was from 1745 to 2030?

8 A. Yes, that is what I noted in the diary.

9 Q. Is it correct to say, General, that it was only during the

10 commanders collegium meeting that General Delic was appointed as commander

11 of the Main Staff or certainly informed of ...?

12 A. The commanders collegium was at that moment notified that

13 General Delic, following the Presidency's decision, was appointed army

14 commander. General Sefer Halilovic was appointed chief of staff. Siber

15 and I were appointed army commanders' deputies.

16 Q. And was General Delic present at that commanders collegium

17 meeting?

18 A. Yes, he was.

19 Q. General, it's right to say that it was during that commanders

20 collegium meeting that General Delic was informed for the first time that

21 he had been appointed as commander of the Main Staff, is it not?

22 A. I don't know.

23 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, could that document be please made an

24 exhibit?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 2255

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 354.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me a comment which

5 I think would be beneficial.

6 MR. ROBSON: Please go ahead, General.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Delic was very embarrassed

8 to attend that meeting, because a number of the participants in the

9 meeting, especially members of the Patriotic League, gave comments to the

10 effect that they would not allow that to happen. General Delic says that

11 he was surprised when this was offered to him, that actually he in no way

12 sought to impose himself for that position. And I think that one of the

13 things which was said -- which he said, rather, was that, "I shall do

14 everything to live up to the trust placed in me."

15 Q. Thank you, General.

16 A. You're welcome.

17 MR. ROBSON: I'd now like to turn to -- this document can be put

18 away. Thank you, Judge -- Your Honour. Can I just clarify? Has an

19 exhibit number been assigned to it?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhibit 354.


22 Q. General Divjak, I'd like to turn to General Delic's first meeting

23 as commander of the Main Staff with his chiefs of administration.

24 Please, can I show you Defence document D371.

25 Your Honours, I should say this is a very short translation, just

Page 2256

1 the one small extract from the diary.

2 General Divjak, if you could --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's still the witness's diary?


5 Q. Could you confirm for us, General, is this a copy of a document

6 from your diary?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 MR. ROBSON: Now, I wonder, please, could we show General Divjak

9 the right-hand side of this page?

10 Q. Now, General, can you confirm that this is an extract from your

11 diary for the 9th of June, 1993?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. And we can see there a timing, is that correct, 10.00 a.m.?

14 A. That is correct.

15 MR. ROBSON: If we could please go over to the left-hand side of

16 this page.

17 Q. Please, could you read out for us what this entry states?

18 A. It says "Briefing the Commander." Under "1. Delic":

19 "Greetings. Wants cooperation. Will do his utmost with help from

20 his associates," the idea being that he would render assistance to the

21 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to effectively carry out its tasks, and he's

22 insisting on cooperation and assistance from the Staff organs.

23 Q. And by saying he wants assistance from the Staff organs, is it

24 correct that at this meeting he was meeting with the chiefs of

25 administration?

Page 2257

1 A. Yes, with the chiefs of administrations and representatives of

2 other organs, with the assistants as well. I was there, myself, as was

3 Siber. We can ascertain that a bit later.

4 Q. If you can answer just "yes" or "no," can you remember what was

5 discussed at that meeting?

6 A. I can read what I wrote in my diary.

7 Q. Could you confirm for us, General, is it right that the chiefs of

8 administration gave General Delic a presentation about their areas of

9 authority?

10 A. It's not their powers that they spoke about, but they spoke about

11 the goals, objectives, materiel support and personnel questions which fell

12 within the purview of their respective administrations.

13 Q. So they were giving him information and making him aware of what

14 was going on in the Main Staff; is that right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Now, General Divjak, I'd like to refer you to your statement that

17 you gave to the Office of the Prosecution in September 2005. And at page

18 40 of that document, which is on the first tape of the interviews that

19 took place, you said:

20 "According to the way he showed his interest, he did not seem to

21 know everything."

22 Do you remember -- first of all, you were talking about

23 General Delic at that point during the interview, weren't you?

24 A. Yes, I was, and I was talking about that day, the day of the

25 meeting.

Page 2258

1 Q. And in the OTP interview, you went on to say, in connection with

2 General Delic:

3 "He seemed interested, not superficial. He was very carefully

4 listening, but my conclusion was he did not know the complete situation."

5 Is that right? Was your impression that General Delic --

6 A. Yes, yes, and I confirm now what I said then.

7 Q. So it follows that your impression was that at that first meeting

8 on the 9th of June, 1993, between General Delic and the chiefs of

9 administration, he was for the first time really finding out what was

10 going on within the Main Staff?

11 A. That is not what I said, and that is not what I say now. What I

12 do say is that he -- he was objectively in no position to know some

13 things. He just couldn't be aware of the problems of the operations, the

14 administration, because he probably had information to the effect that the

15 operations administration had 150 staff, whereas at the time it only had

16 20 people. So this is the kind of information that I'm talking about. Of

17 course, as a member of the army, he knew what the problems of the army

18 were. But in view of the things that he asked about, in terms of what was

19 going on in the staff, I concluded that he was not aware of some of the

20 things and of some of the problems.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we pause a little bit and allow the interpreter

22 an opportunity to drink of water.

23 You may proceed now.

24 MR. ROBSON: Thank you.

25 Your Honour, please could we have an exhibit number for this

Page 2259

1 document?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's already an exhibit?

3 MR. ROBSON: No. I'm tendering it into evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted into

5 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 355.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


9 Q. General Divjak, I'd now like to turn to the issue of the

10 Mujahedin. And you have told the Trial Chamber about a meeting that took

11 place on the 18th of June, 1993, where you received information mentioning

12 the Mujahedin. And you also told us that a proposal was given to General

13 Delic and to be discussed with President Izetbegovic. Do you remember

14 that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. You told us how two options were proposed to General Delic to

17 discuss with President Izetbegovic, the first being to send the foreigners

18 back to wherever they came from, or the second being that they should be

19 organised as a unit. Do you remember telling us that?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Just so that we're absolutely clear what we're talking about, I'd

22 like to refer you to -- again to your statement given to the Office of the

23 Prosecution in September 2005. And during that interview, the

24 investigator put it to you very clearly whether at that meeting the

25 discussion was about either a group or a unit. And what your response to

Page 2260

1 the investigator was that they talked about a group of Mujahedin. Do you

2 remember saying that?

3 A. I assert that now as well.

4 Q. You also told us yesterday that according to the information you

5 received, the Mujahedin were not participating in operations with members

6 of the army. Do you remember saying that?

7 A. We are talking about combat operations; right? Not just

8 operation -- or combat activity, rather. "Operations" means also the use

9 of also platoons and different branches.

10 Q. Yes, General, we are talking about combat activities.

11 A. Excellent, thank you. According to that information, we had no

12 data that they were engaged in combat activities with members of the army,

13 so I'm just talking about what we knew according to the information that

14 we had received and that we were discussing -- that we discussed on the

15 18th of June, 1993.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you, General.

17 Now, in connection with that meeting, if I could please show you

18 an exhibit. It's Exhibit 163.

19 Your Honours, just by way of explanation, this is an order from

20 Rasim Delic, dated 16th of June, 1993, to the 3rd Corps.

21 Q. Are you able to read that document, General?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?

24 A. No, never.

25 Q. It's right, isn't it, General, that what this document shows is

Page 2261

1 that General Delic is ordering the commander of the 3rd Corps to carry out

2 certain tasks?

3 A. Yes, it is right.

4 Q. And we can see here that it states, in the first paragraph:

5 "Volunteers from foreign countries and a group of Bosnians trained

6 in a so-called Gerila unit have been staying on the territory of Zenica.

7 With the aim of their focused engagement in our struggle, I hereby order,

8 1, send these groups to Igman to join the SVK Independent Detachment, to

9 Zuka's unit. Otherwise, they should have hospitality withdrawn and

10 possibly be disarmed."

11 Do you agree, General, that the two options mentioned in this

12 order match or are very similar to the proposal that was put to

13 Rasim Delic during that meeting on the 18th of June?

14 A. Well, it is obvious from this order that General Delic was aware

15 of the existence of these groups of volunteers, of Bosnians, too, not of

16 Bosniaks, so of Bosnians, because there is a distinction to be made

17 between Bosnians and Bosniaks, and that they were to be trained for

18 something -- I don't know about this Gerila group, but obviously it was

19 the intention of the commander for that group to be comprised within the

20 Independent Detachment of the Staff of the Supreme Command, or as we

21 called it, "Zuka's unit," the objective being to soldierise them, which is

22 the term I would use, which is actually to say to put them under the

23 command of the Bosnian Army. And what is of the essence, he also ordered

24 that if they did not obey, that they would have to be told that they were

25 no longer welcome and be disarmed.

Page 2262

1 As regards the actually undertaken measures and the results

2 achieved, the Staff was to be informed of those as early as possible.

3 Q. Thank you for that, General. So would you agree that the options,

4 the two options contained in this order were effectively the same as that

5 proposal which was discussed at the meeting, which you said occurred on

6 the 18th of June?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, General, the Defence has reviewed your diary entries for the

9 18th of June, and we can certainly provide a copy of it to you, if you'd

10 like to see it. But it would appear that there is no mention made of a

11 meeting taking place on the 18th of June, and my question to you is: Is

12 it possible that that meeting, at which the Mujahedin was mentioned and

13 the two -- and the proposal was put to General Delic, actually could have

14 taken place prior to the 16th of June?

15 A. Well, if my diary states the 18th, it must have been the 18th.

16 Q. Sorry, General. Just to clarify, myself, the Defence team has

17 reviewed your diary entry for the 18th, and it doesn't mention anything

18 about meetings taking place that day. Certainly, there's no mention of

19 any discussion -- there's no mention of any meeting at which Mujahedin are

20 discussed. Is it possible that, in fact, the meeting at which the

21 Mujahedin was mentioned actually took place at an earlier date before the

22 16th of June, 1993?

23 A. Well, if anyone has a better diary, let them offer it to me and to

24 the OTP. I believe --.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not quite sure what the end

Page 2263

1 of the sentence was.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I give the witness

3 a Bosnian version of his diary so he can consult it in respect of the 18th

4 of June so that he would be better equipped to reply?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know whether your opposite member wants to

6 see it first.

7 MS. SARTORIO: It's -- no, Your Honour, thank you.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the transcript or, rather, the

10 conversation, the talk which I had in 1995, is reference to a document,

11 but I don't know what document. So could I ask you kindly to tell me what

12 is written there in the transcript of that particular interview?


14 Q. General, I'm afraid -- I'm not sure what documents you were shown

15 during that interview. We have been provided with extracts from your

16 diary relating to June 1993.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Sartorio.

18 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you. I don't want to make a suggestion, but

19 I don't know if he's talking about the transcript of his statement in

20 2005, I don't know, but --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, he started off by saying in the transcript,

22 but then said, "Rather, no, the conversation or talk which I had in 1995".

23 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, sir.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 2005.


Page 2264

1 Q. What I would like to focus on, General, if I may, is: Do you

2 agree that in front of you is a copy of the pages from your diary for the

3 18th of June, 1993?

4 A. This is what I noted on the 18th of June.

5 Q. And you've now had the chance to review the pages from that

6 particular date. It's right to say, isn't it, that nowhere within those

7 pages is there any reference to a meeting at which the Mujahedin was

8 mentioned or discussed?

9 A. No, what I have here written down for the 18th, that is not the

10 case, there is no such reference. As a matter of fact, General Delic did

11 not at all attend this meeting on the 18th.

12 Q. So, then, General, is it possible, then, that the meeting which

13 you described to us in your evidence at which the Mujahedin was mentioned

14 actually took place earlier and before the 16th of June, 1993?

15 A. Could I please be given today or tomorrow, or any day, my own

16 diary so that I could consult my diary to check the entries against those

17 dates?

18 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the Defence would have no objection to

19 that course of action.

20 MS. SARTORIO: No objection, Your Honour. We are currently in

21 possession of the diaries, so I'd have to have someone from the Registry

22 get -- I'll give them to the Registry and they can give them to the

23 witness.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You can do that --

25 MS. SARTORIO: Right after this session.

Page 2265

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MR. ROBSON: All right. We'll put that issue to one side, then,

3 until the General's had a chance to see the documents.

4 If I could turn to another extract from General Divjak's diary.

5 This extract is dated the 12th of July, 1993. It is document D372.

6 Again, Your Honours, we have just copied the relevant extract --

7 we've translated the relevant extracts from the diary.

8 Q. General, can you tell us what it says at the top of the page, the

9 first entry in the diary for this day?

10 A. "The aggressor, on the 6th of July, a helicopter descended" --

11 Q. Sorry, General, I apologise. Could you just read out the heading,

12 the top two lines of the document, for us?

13 A. The first line is: "Content," and the second is: "Briefing."

14 Q. Could we please scroll across to the right-hand side.

15 A. It says: "The 12th of July, 0900 hours."

16 Q. And if we could go further to the right, please, could you read

17 out what that says?

18 A. "Present, 23. Later -- arrived later, the commander, the chief of

19 staff, and Celjo [Realtime transcript read in error "Celo"]," and that is

20 at line 20.

21 Q. So, General, on the 12th of July at 9.20, is it correct to say

22 that a meeting took place between yourself, the commander, the chief of

23 staff and somebody called Celjo?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just interrupt you? Could the Court Officer

25 please shift the microphone from directly under the nose of the witness.

Page 2266

1 Thank you very much.

2 MR. ROBSON: Okay.

3 Q. General, would you like me to repeat my last question or do you

4 still remember what I said?

5 A. The meeting began at 9.00. At 9.20, arrived the commander, the

6 chief of staff and Celjo.

7 MR. ROBSON: And if we can please turn to page 2 in the English

8 document and page 3 of the Bosnian version.

9 Your Honour, before I proceed to ask any further questions, if I

10 could just please ask that the record be corrected. The name of the third

11 person attending was "Celjo" and not "Celo" as has been recorded on the

12 transcript.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What page and what line of the transcript?

14 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, the same page, 84, line 21.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the record show that that "Celo" at line 13

16 should read "Celjo." Thank you very much.

17 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour. My colleague is just

18 pointing out that there were earlier references as well, so if they could

19 also be amended as well, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the earlier references can be also amended.

21 Thank you.


23 Q. Now, General, if you could look at the bottom of this page, entry

24 E, it's in the bottom quarter of this page, could you read out what "E"

25 says, please?

Page 2267

1 A. "Security Administration." It continues to state that:

2 "The 10th Mountain Brigade --" there is a mention of personnel

3 changes within the Security Administration. I cannot read the rest. There

4 is a mention further down of the formation of the Muslim Armed Forces, but

5 I cannot read the sentence.

6 Q. I apologise, General. It's because the text continues over.

7 Perhaps the easiest thing to do, Your Honours, is if I could again

8 please give a hard copy.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.


11 Q. General, could you start from the beginning again? I apologise

12 for not spotting that problem.

13 A. Under "E," it says: "Security Administration," then:

14 "The 10th Motorised -- the 10th Mountain and the 9th Motorised

15 Brigade are out of control."

16 It is suggested that personnel changes should occur in those

17 brigades.

18 The second item:

19 "There is division and conflict between the civilian authorities

20 and the 3rd Corps. There is a tendency within the 3rd Corps that the

21 Muslim Armed Forces be formed. And this sentiment tends to spread to the

22 2nd Corps as well. Then in the 2nd Corps it is possible to have incidents

23 occur."

24 Q. Thank you, General.

25 A. You're welcome.

Page 2268

1 Q. What it essentially describes is that at the meeting, some of the

2 discussion focused upon the Muslim Armed Forces and problems that they

3 were creating; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. This was the Security Administration's report.

5 MR. ROBSON: Thank you. What I'd like to do is refer -- refer

6 further down the document, where you recorded something that General Delic

7 had to say at this meeting. So I think just before we look at the comment

8 of General Delic, I think we have to look at page 3 of the English version

9 and page 5 of the Bosnian version.

10 Your Honours, with your permission --

11 Q. Well, General, can you see there that -- can you see there that

12 you've written the name "Delic" and we can see a number of points

13 underneath the name "Delic"?

14 A. Yes. This is Commander Delic conveying certain conclusions and

15 appointing different people to implement certain tasks.

16 Q. Now, the relevant point that I'd like to draw your attention to is

17 on the next page on the B/C/S version and also the next page in the

18 English, so page 4.

19 Now, General, I'm interested in an entry towards the top of the

20 second page of that document you've got there. Do you see where it says

21 something like:

22 "Ask for information about the situation in the 3rd Corps ..."

23 A. Yes, I do, I see it.

24 Q. Please, would you read out the entry that you have in front of

25 you?

Page 2269

1 A. "Ask for information on the situation in the 3rd Corps (the

2 forming of the MOS, the Muslim Armed Forces) and send a letter to the

3 president that they cannot act outside the framework," or the institution

4 of the army. What I had in mind there was the MOS.

5 Q. So, General, what happened then was at this meeting General Delic

6 made this statement, and this is what you recorded in your diary about

7 that statement?

8 A. That was not an opinion. It was General Delic's order, to take

9 certain measures and to forward information on the situation in the 3rd

10 Corps, as well as to send a letter to the president to the effect that no

11 activity of these units will be allowed that would fall outside the

12 framework of the army.

13 Q. So General Delic made it clear he was going to act in this way; is

14 that so? He was going to -- he was going to take action in connection

15 with the Muslim Armed Forces?

16 A. Yes. It was an order sent to the Operational Staff to draft such

17 an order and to draft the letter mentioned. That was his order.

18 MR. ROBSON: Okay. Your Honours, please, can I tender this

19 document for -- into evidence.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 356.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Yes, Mr. Robson.


Page 2270

1 Q. And now, General, if I could please show you Exhibit 225, which is

2 a document headed "Warning" from General Delic, dated the 27th of July,

3 1993.

4 General Divjak, please, could you read this document?

5 A. Out loud or --

6 Q. Not out loud. If you could just read it to yourself, please.

7 Perhaps if we could scroll down to the bottom of the B/C/S?

8 A. I've read the first page.

9 Q. And can you confirm, General, that this document was sent from

10 General Delic?

11 A. Yes, General Delic sent this to the Staffs in Sarajevo, Tuzla,

12 Zenica, Bihac, Mostar and Gorazde, as well as to the Commands of the 1st,

13 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Corps.

14 Q. And we can see from this document, General, that General Delic

15 states:

16 "It has been registered that a number of units of the Muslim Armed

17 Forces have been formed within the formation structure of brigades and

18 battalions of the Army of BiH."

19 In the second paragraph, it goes on to say:

20 "Take all measures to prevent these and other activities aimed at

21 breaking up that unity and to bring all armed formations under the single

22 system of command and control."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. And would you agree that the subject matter of this document is

Page 2271

1 the same subject matter that General Delic discussed during the meeting

2 that you wrote about in your diary on the 12th of July, 1993?

3 A. About the items or things discussed at the meeting, there is a

4 mention of the MOS, but as to the fact that it was formed within brigades,

5 there was no discussion of that at the meeting when we were issued tasks

6 by Delic.

7 Q. General, would you agree that the issue of the Muslim Armed Forces

8 having been discussed at the meeting on the 12th of July, this document

9 dated the 27th of July suggests or shows that General Delic reacted to the

10 problem relating to MOS?

11 A. In one of the previous documents, we can see that he had reacted

12 previously when he said that the Zulfikar unit was supposed to be sent to

13 Igman so that they would be included in the chain of command. Therefore,

14 his reaction preceded this thing that you mentioned now.

15 Q. Would you agree with me, General, that this document again shows

16 that General Delic reacted quickly and took concrete measures to deal with

17 the problem that was discussed with him?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour --

20 MS. SARTORIO: I have the diary, Your Honour. Sorry, I didn't

21 mean to interrupt my learned colleague, but I was just showing him that

22 the diary has arrived, if you want to cover that today.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Robson, the diary has arrived.

24 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, what I propose, it's 1.45, I propose

25 that we adjourn for today. I don't have a great deal of questions for

Page 2272

1 tomorrow, but I think it would be sensible to deal with the diary during

2 the adjournment overnight.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 We will then take an adjournment and come --

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Robson. What did you say about the

7 diary overnight?

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I propose that General Divjak take a

9 look at it after this court session and we deal with it tomorrow.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would propose that he reads the diary in court

11 tomorrow.

12 MR. ROBSON: Yes.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll take an adjournment for today and

14 reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same court.

15 Court adjourned.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

18 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.