1 Friday, 14 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Shall we have the appearances the today, starting with the
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
14 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
15 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon, assisted by our case manager,
16 Alma Imamovic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 And for the Defence.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
20 morning, colleagues from the OTP, everybody in and around the courtroom.
21 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson representing the Defence of General
22 Delic, with assistants Lana Deljkic and Asja Zujo.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 So Mr. Berbic, at the beginning of your testimony yesterday, you
25 made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else
1 but the truth. I remind you that you are still bound by that declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 WITNESS: ENVER BERBIC [Resumed]
5 [The witness answered through interpreter]
6 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examination by Mr. Menon: [Continued]
8 Q. Mr. Berbic, there's one point I want to clarify. During your
9 testimony yesterday, you indicated you became the head of a segment of the
10 Security Administration which is located at the Kakanj command post and
11 that you believe that this had occurred in October of 1995.
12 Can you clarify which segment of the Security Administration in
13 Kakanj you were responsible for?
14 A. It was the segment for staff security affairs. But as I was the
15 head of that segment, I was also responsible for the work of the other
16 staff belonging to other segments.
17 Q. And when you say "other segments," can you refer to the formal
18 title of those segments?
19 A. I said, yesterday, the representative of the first department; we,
20 from the second department, a couple of us people; and one person from the
21 section for military police affairs. That was more or less the segment
22 that I was answerable for in terms of organisational work and
23 discipline --
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. -- over those two or three months.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic.
2 MR. MENON:
3 If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02834.
4 Q. Do you see the document in front of you, Mr. Berbic?
5 MR. MENON:
6 And if we could have the whole English document on the screen.
7 Thank you.
8 Q. Do you see the document in front of you, Mr. Berbic?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. What's the date of the document?
11 A. It is the 17th of December, 1995.
12 Q. And to whom is this document addressed?
13 A. This document is addressed to precisely this segment of the
14 Military Security Service at the Kakanj command post, to me personally.
15 Q. And can you -- after the section where it's addressed to you
16 personally, there's an instruction there. Can you carefully read that
17 instruction to yourself?
18 Have you had a chance to read that?
19 A. We are here at Bulletin 237 --
20 Q. Just read it -- have you read it to yourself?
21 A. Are you saying whether I had received this document and had read
22 it then?
23 Q. No, no, now. I just wanted to make sure that you were familiar
24 with the contents of that statement, because I was going to put a question
25 to you. Have you had a chance to look at it right now and to read it and
1 to familiarise yourself with it?
2 A. This content under the word "Bulletin," I did not read, and nor
3 did I familiarise myself with that part of the text, this complete text,
4 other than the word "Bulletin." I just familiarised myself with the
5 instructions given here in the heading.
6 Q. Okay. Now, did you comply with that instruction that was --
7 that's set out in this document when you received it in Kakanj?
8 A. Well, I don't remember, but I probably must have complied with it
9 if I was there, because I didn't have to be there at all times. If I had
10 been there, I would have certainly complied with these instructions and
11 submitted the document to whomever I was to submit it.
12 Q. And can you explain how you would have gone about complying with
13 this instruction?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objections, Your Honour. The
16 witness said, "I don't remember," and he gave a hypothetical response.
17 And the question was, "How did you act to comply with the instructions?"
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon.
19 MR. MENON: Your Honour, to the extent that the witness can recall
20 how he would comply with such instructions when he actually received them,
21 I think that he can give an answer to that question.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm still trying to read the witness's previous
23 answer. I think I'll allow the question. Thank you very much.
24 MR. MENON:
25 Q. Mr. Berbic, if you could please indicate how you would comply with
1 the instructions set out in this document.
2 A. I couldn't tell you with precision what the procedure was; and
3 specifically about this case, I can't tell you because I don't remember.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you don't remember whether you did or did not
5 comply with this instruction?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember the details in
7 either case.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about the details. I'm just
9 asking you: Did you comply with the instruction that is given up here,
10 before the writing that is under the "Bulletin"? Did you comply with the
11 instructions, or do you remember whether you did or did not comply with
12 the instruction?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember specifically, in
14 regard of this number, whether I complied or did not comply.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be
17 tendered into evidence.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is -- sorry.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
21 please be given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 365.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02835.
25 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?
1 A. Yes, I do see it.
2 Q. Thank you. To whom is this document addressed?
3 A. This document is addressed to the Kakanj command post, the
4 Military Security Service, and then to me personally.
5 Q. And there's an instruction there from General Jusuf Jasarevic to
6 you. Did you comply with that instruction?
7 A. I really cannot recall whether I complied with this specific
8 instruction, according to this particular document, because that was 12
9 years ago, but I don't think that there were any reasons for me not to
10 have complied with it and act according to the instruction. But
11 specifically, in regards to this particular document, I cannot remember
12 whether I really did. That day, I might not at all have been there. I
13 might not have been at work.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Berbic, when you -- when you do recall receiving
15 instructions from Mr. Jasarevic, would you, in those cases, generally
16 comply with those instructions?
17 A. Generally speaking, yes, I would comply with instructions,
18 provided, however, that I did not look at the bulletin or at the content
19 of the bulletin, nor did I need to look at them. I would simply place
20 everything in an envelope and take it to the DC or some of my staff would
21 take it to the DC.
22 Q. And in your absence, was there a procedure in place for such
23 documents to be delivered to the DC?
24 A. There was a procedure. I do not see the time of receipt of this
25 document. Perhaps if there was one, I could explain better because this
1 particular document arrived via the Communications Centre, and then there
2 was no signature. Perhaps if I could see the very top of the document.
3 Well, we can see here that the document arrived after 1800 hours.
4 In such cases, the person on duty in the segment of the administration of
5 the Military Security Service at the Kakanj command post would receive
6 this or such a document from the Communications Centre.
7 Q. And what was the person on duty supposed to do with the document
8 when they received it?
9 A. The person on duty would wait for the following day, when I'd
10 arrive, and would hand over that document to me.
11 Q. And then what would you do with that document?
12 A. I would look at the instructions in the document. I would put it
13 in an envelope and submit it to the most responsible person at that point
14 in time at the DC.
15 MR. MENON: Thank you, Mr. Berbic.
16 Your Honour, I would ask if this document could be tendered into
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
19 please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 366.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02839.
23 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. To whom is this document addressed?
1 A. This document is addressed to the command post at Kakanj, the
2 Military Security Service, to me personally.
3 Q. And from whom are you receiving this document? Who's the -- from
4 whom is this document coming from?
5 A. This document came from the administration -- from the
6 administration of the Military Security Service, from Sarajevo.
7 Q. Who signed the document?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can the witness see the bottom.
9 MR. MENON: It's actually in the middle section. It's in the
10 middle part of the document.
11 Q. Who --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying the document is signed in the
13 middle, Mr. Menon?
14 MR. MENON: Well, the sender of the document, the person who --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But you're asking the witness who signed it.
16 He must see the signature.
17 MR. MENON: Well, actually, Your Honour, it's a typewritten
19 Q. Mr. Berbic, this is a document that's addressed to you. Which
20 person is addressing this document to you?
21 A. I don't know exactly which person. The initials indicating who
22 wrote the document, who authored it, actually do not match the name of the
23 person who signed it.
24 Q. And who signed the document, then?
25 A. We have a specific situation here. I see no signature, which in
1 fact is quite normal because the document was received by radio packet
2 communications, so that I cannot know who signed it. Actually, I can just
3 read what it says here by way of signature.
4 Q. In this document, are you being instructed to do something?
5 A. Yes. Yes, I am.
6 Q. Who's giving you -- who is giving you that instruction?
7 A. The signature says "Head, Brigadier General Jusuf Jasarevic."
8 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.
9 Your Honour, I would ask that this document be tendered into
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
12 please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 367.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P03059, and
16 it's actually page 39 of that exhibit. It's a fairly lengthy exhibit.
17 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 MR. MENON: It's actually 39 of the English as well, if we could
20 go to 39 of the English and the B/C/S. I only see both English versions
21 on my screen.
22 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And what's the date of the document?
25 A. The date is the 27th of September, 1995.
1 Q. And who is this document addressed to?
2 A. It is addressed to the command post in Kakanj, the Military
3 Security Service, to me personally.
4 Q. And if you could look at the first paragraph, there's
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you comply with those instructions?
8 A. I really cannot recall, because this is a critical date, in fact.
9 I'm not quite sure whether I was on duty on that day. It is quite early
10 on. Apart from that, given the signature that we can see on this
11 document, I fail to see how I could have received this document at all, I
12 mean, in what way.
13 Q. If you could look at the handwritten notation on the left side of
14 the document, can you just look at that? It's at the bottom of the
15 document, on the bottom left-hand side of the document, Mr. Berbic.
16 A. Yes, I do see it.
17 Q. Would the sender or the receiver of that document, of the document
18 in front of you, have made that notation?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who would have made the notation, the sender or the
21 MR. MENON: I'm putting the question to the witness so he can
22 testify to it.
23 A. I don't know who affixed this notation there. But if you're
24 asking me who generally could have done it, and as far as I can make out,
25 what is written here is: "Went on the 28th of September, 1995," or "went
1 out." That probably refers to the document having gone out at that time.
2 MR. MENON:
3 Q. Mr. Berbic, would the sender or the receiver of this document have
4 made that notation? I'm not looking for a specific person, just for you
5 to identify whether it would be the sender or the receiver that would have
6 made this notation.
7 A. I'm not sure of that.
8 Q. Okay. I'll move on. If you could look at the second paragraph in
9 this document. Did you comply with that instruction?
10 A. In the specific case, I do not remember.
11 Q. I'm talking about -- it's worded in a very general way,
12 Mr. Berbic, and so I'm speaking generally. When you had this
13 responsibility, when you were receiving these bulletins personally from
14 Mr. Jasarevic, would you comply with the instruction that's set out in the
15 second paragraph?
16 A. I would, of course, seek to comply with the instructions.
17 Q. And how would you comply with those instructions?
18 A. This is an instruction that arrived to the effect that on
19 familiarisation with this document, the document was to be returned to the
20 segment of the Military Security Service at the Kakanj command post and to
21 be kept in custody, in a safe place, meaning safe or some other safe place
22 where all the other documents were being kept.
23 Q. Can you elaborate upon what that safe place was, since it was you
24 that was charged with this responsibility?
25 A. That place would be an iron cabinet, for instance, the key to
1 which was held by the two of us who worked on staff security affairs. The
2 steel cabinet was in our room, and no one else was actually supposed to
3 handle it.
4 Q. And so who was the other person that you're referring to, because
5 you said "the two of us"?
6 A. At the time when I was the man in charge, which is to say in the
7 period from October to the end of December, or perhaps January of the
8 following year, the staff occupying that position changed.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon, how much longer are you going to be?
10 MR. MENON: I'm just about ready to finish up, Your Honour.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic.
12 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask if this document -- just this
13 page of this exhibit, if it could be tendered into evidence.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we do so, Mr. Menon, could you just explain
15 to us what we are trying to establish with these documents?
16 MR. MENON: With this document, specifically, or with the other
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think they have almost the same line of
19 evidentiary importance, because they're all dealing with the task of the
20 witness to bring something to the attention of somebody else, and I'm
21 curious to know, the sender, as I recall in all cases, were General
22 Jasarevic, and I suppose -- or maybe we would ask the witness where was
23 General Jasarevic located, situated, when these messages were sent.
24 Secondly, to whom is the witness asked to bring these documents?
25 And so as to better understand the importance and significance of these
1 two or three documents that you've shown to the witness.
2 MR. MENON: I'll put those questions to the witness, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Berbic, you heard the questions posed by Judge Harhoff. Where
4 was Mr. Jasarevic based when these documents were being sent?
5 A. I cannot state where he personally was; however, his seat, his
6 office was supposed to be in Sarajevo. Of course, occasionally, he moved
7 about the free territory.
8 Q. And to -- and to whom were you supposed to bring these documents?
9 A. I would take these documents to the DC. I didn't have to wait for
10 anyone in particular. I would simply deliver them to the most responsible
11 person there at the moment.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: The instruction, if I may, the instruction is that
13 the document should be brought to the army General Staff commander. Is
14 that the same person as the DC?
15 MR. MENON:
16 Q. Mr. Berbic, you've heard the question from the Judge. Is there a
17 distinction between the DC, which, yesterday, you referred to that as the
18 Distribution Centre, and the army Staff commander? Is there a distinction
19 between those two?
20 A. I mentioned the DC yesterday, and I have the same thing in mind
21 today. There were those offices there that I mentioned yesterday.
22 Q. And whose offices are you referring to?
23 A. I mentioned the offices of General Delic and General
24 Hadzihasanovic, as well as the offices of some officers from the
25 Operations Administration. There was some other offices, such as the
1 protocol and so on and so forth.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me for pursuing this, but the interest, of
3 course, is whether General Delic ever received these documents. I mean,
4 if you were asked to - I'm asking the witness now directly, if I may - if
5 you were asked to bring these documents to General Delic, then you say
6 that what you did was rather to give it to the Distribution Centre, and
7 then let someone from that centre bring it to General Delic. Is that how
8 it worked?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, in other words, you did normally not bring the
11 document directly into the hands of General Delic, did you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he was there at the moment, I was
13 supposed to deliver it to him. If he was absent, I would give it to
14 General Hadzihasanovic, who was the Chief of Staff. If he was absent as
15 well, I would deliver that to the highest-ranking officer of the
16 Operations Administration. There is a document in existence which
17 regulates the procedure.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. And, so, if General Delic or General
19 Hadzihasanovic were not immediately present at the moment you came up,
20 then you would give it to somebody else, instructing that person then to
21 bring it to the addressee?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is right.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you then subsequently verify if actually
24 Delic -- General Delic or General Hadzihasanovic ever received the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was duty-bound to check, but only
2 to the extent whether they were familiarised with the document. Someone
3 from the service would give me a call. They would tell me that has been
4 done and that I can come and pick up the document. I suppose that General
5 Hadzihasanovic, on occasion, would familiar himself with the documents,
6 thus completing the task.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. So we can assume that the documents that
8 were intended to be brought to the knowledge of General Delic or General
9 Hadzihasanovic were actually brought to their knowledge?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot say that for
11 certain. If General Delic was absent, he may have been told about a
12 certain document through General Hadzihasanovic. It was up to them as to
13 how they organised that. General Delic was there very seldom and would
14 stay for only a short while. This is what I know from taking the
15 documents there.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused
19 Yesterday, Witness, I understood that you stated that "DC" meant
20 the place where several offices were located, among others, the office of
21 the General Command, and that it was not only the Distribution Centre that
22 was located there. And did I understand that "DC" meant all that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can explain, Your Honour.
24 The Distribution Centre was the name of the company that was there until
25 the war. It was the name of the facility. In the facility, there was no
1 distribution centre, nothing of that sort. However, on the first floor,
2 there were still some offices of the distribution centre, which
3 subsequently were used for the needs of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 In those offices, General Delic, General Hadzihasanovic, some
5 Operations Administration officers, as well as the protocol people were.
6 There were some seven or eight offices in total.
7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
9 MR. MENON: Actually, I was still --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. MENON: I was just going to finish up with the witness, Your
12 Honour. It will be another four minutes, at the most.
13 I would first ask if this exhibit, I think it's still on the
14 screen, if it could be tendered into evidence.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that --
16 MR. MENON: Just this page, actually.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought it was given Exhibit number 368.
18 MR. MENON: Not yet.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. May the document please be given an exhibit
20 number, as it has been admitted into evidence.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 368.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 MR. MENON:
24 Q. Mr. Berbic, for how long were you based at the command post in
1 A. I was based at the Kakanj command post as of the moment I was sent
2 to serve with the Military Security Administration, or rather, it's
3 segment at the Kakanj command post.
4 Q. And when did you leave the command post?
5 A. I left the command post, together with the entire service, I
6 believe in February, although I'm not quite certain. In February 1996, we
7 went to Sarajevo. Once the Dayton Accords were signed, we started packing
8 up. There was no reason for us to stay there, since communication was now
9 free. It was open.
10 Q. And when did you leave the administration of the Military Security
12 A. Upon my arrival in Sarajevo, in the Ministry of Defence of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina - I believe that is the correct name - I asked in
14 writing to be sent to another administration. I left in February or March
15 1996; in any case, at the beginning of 1996.
16 MR. MENON: Thank you, Mr. Berbic.
17 The Prosecution has no further questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Menon.
19 Just before I hand you over to Madam Vidovic, you were asked how
20 long you were based at the command post in Kakanj, and you said you were
21 based at the Kakanj command post as of the moment you were sent to serve
22 in the Military Security Administration.
23 Can you give us a date as to when you were sent to serve at the
24 Military Security Administration, because you don't seem to have answered
25 that question completely; at least, I don't understand you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to be as
2 precise as I can.
3 I believe I joined the service in July 1994, and I stayed with it
4 until February or March 1996. It all had to do with the Dayton Accords;
5 and after that, I left the service.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Berbic. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I will
11 cross-examine you today on behalf of General Delic.
12 Given the nature of cross-examination, you will be able to answer
13 simply "yes" or "no" to many of my questions. If there is any need for
14 clarification, I will ask you to provide it, or you may be asked questions
15 by the Judges. I will do my utmost to complete your evidence today, and,
16 therefore, I would kindly ask you to be as brief as possible when giving
18 We speak the same language; therefore, please allow a short pause
19 between my question and the beginning of your answer, so as to allow the
20 transcript and the interpreters to catch up.
21 Did you understand me?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Mr. Berbic, you completed the Air Force Technical Academy; is that
25 A. I completed the Air Force Technical High School, which is lower
1 than the Air Force Academy.
2 Q. Thank you. In the former JNA, you worked with communications.
3 Communications is your specialty; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I believe you remember that you provided a statement to the
6 investigators. Do you recall that? To the investigators of the OTP, on
7 the 16th of September, 2005; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I wanted to remind you of that statement and to ask you about a
10 part of it which I deem of importance for this case.
11 During 1992, you worked on the establishment of communication
12 links in Visoko; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it correct that the former JNA, during its withdrawal from
15 certain parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, where non-Serbs lived, took away or
16 destroyed most of the equipment that it had?
17 A. Since I could access quality information, given the function I
18 had, I can tell you that that is correct.
19 Q. They destroyed the relay hubs which were supposed to relay
20 information, and I just wanted to mention a few. The one at Vlasic; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Donje Mostre?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At Zlatiste?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At Vraca near Sarajevo.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And some others. I believe you will recall that.
5 A. Yes, I do. And also Hum, just above Sarajevo, the relay hub
7 Q. Thank you. You said that during 1993, in your evidence, in your
8 testimony here, that there was radio communication in place. Is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it correct that there was a lot of improvising when trying to
12 secure communication links?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. You communicated with Sarajevo by telephone, for example, while
15 you were still at Visoko?
16 A. We had a telephone line to Sarajevo from Visoko until August, I
17 believe, August 1992.
18 Q. After that, that link was disrupted. All telephone communication
19 around Sarajevo ceased?
20 A. Yes. The central cable that connected Zenica and Sarajevo was cut
21 off, severed.
22 Q. Later on, at a certain point in time, certain bodies of the
23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina received satellite telephones?
24 A. Yes. I saw a device like that. We had one of those at Visoko.
25 Q. Do you agree that it was a very open, unprotected way of
2 A. Within the communications system, that link is the most
3 vulnerable, and it is the last resort to be used in dire need.
4 Q. Therefore, it was not very favourable to convey military
5 information and sensitive information; am I correct?
6 A. You are.
7 Q. Mr. Berbic, to conclude with this topic, I wanted to ask you this.
8 Perhaps you can tell me if I'm right. It would be fair to say, wouldn't
9 it, that communication links with Sarajevo, generally speaking, throughout
10 1992/1993 were very difficult, difficult to use?
11 A. Precisely so.
12 Q. As regards the entire war, including those situations when packet
13 communication was used that you mentioned today, since you mentioned
14 encryption, would you agree with me that there was often a disruption, a
15 breakup, of such communication links?
16 A. Such communication was often interrupted since a signal could be
17 scrambled or interfered with. It also depended on the number of repeaters
18 that the Army of the Republic of B and H managed to put up, which was in
19 very few places given the situation in the theatre; therefore, that type
20 of communication was also very vulnerable.
21 The very principle and use of packet communication is actually
22 that was taken over from the Ham radio operators in the US. It's a
23 civilian way of communicating.
24 Q. As regards that, I wanted to ask you this: When there is a
25 document that was signed, an original document, which says "Sent," is it
1 correct that we can never be sure that the document that was sent actually
2 arrived anywhere?
3 A. When talking about the end of 19 -- well, the person who would
4 send such a document from the Communications Centre in Sarajevo would have
5 to have some sort of confirmation that the document was indeed received.
6 Those were the rules within the communications branch.
7 Q. Did I understand correctly that that person would have to make a
8 note that he was actually advised that someone received the document on
9 the other end?
10 A. The person receiving has a protocol, a procedure of his own. He
11 would have to note down when and what document he received. The sender on
12 the other side also needs to know what is it that he sent and whether it
13 was received. I'm only talking about communication between communication
15 Q. That's what I had in mind, too. We can ascertain that a document
16 was sent, provided it was registered with the receiver; am I correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And if it was noted down in the protocol forms; am I correct?
19 A. You are.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. I want to move on to another topic.
21 Yesterday, in your testimony, you said that, in 1994, you began
22 working at the command post of the Staff of the Supreme Command at Kakanj;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like the witness
1 to see Exhibit 280. It is an order for the Supreme Command Staff to be
2 relocated, dated the 2nd of January, 1994.
3 Q. Witness, please take a look at page 1, and now look at this date
4 here. Do you agree that you know that this command post functioned from
5 the beginning of 1994?
6 A. It says here: "Order for the Staff of the Supreme Command to go
7 out to the command post, the 2nd of January, 1994."
8 Q. Fine.
9 A. So this is an order for going out, relocating.
10 Q. All right. Let me just ask you this: When you started working at
11 that command post, when you arrived at it, you found there the Brigadier
12 Asim Djambasovic there as the head of the Operations Centre of the army,
13 did you not?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And you also found the Staff of the Army there?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Will the witness please also take a
18 look at page 2 of this document.
19 Q. Look at the document, please, and do you agree that the
20 administrations which are listed here, as well as their segments, were
21 also functioning at Kakanj?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document can be
25 put away, and now I should like Exhibit number 281 to be shown to the
1 witness, please.
2 For the record, this is a document which is entitled "Organisation
3 of the Deployment of the Staff of the Supreme Command." It is an order of
4 the 16th of February, 1994.
5 Q. Witness, will you be so kind as to look at item 1 under the word
6 "Order." It is not very clear, I'm afraid, but please do your best.
7 Yes, I think now you can see that part.
8 Witness, would you please look at item 1. It is true, is it not,
9 that the Staff of the Army worked in Kakanj according to establishment,
10 when you started working there?
11 A. It is true.
12 Q. Also, the Operations Centre for planning, preparation,
13 organisation, monitoring, and control of combat operations, according to
14 establishment, was also working there at the time; am I right?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Will the witness now
17 look at page 2 of this document.
18 Q. Witness, please look at 9, line 9. It refers to the "Department
19 of the Military Security Service of the Security Administration of the
20 Ministry of Defence." Do you see that?
21 A. Would you please repeat?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me. Just before we repeat, Madam Vidovic,
23 the interpretation referred us to line 9. I don't know what you may have
24 said. We're not able -- I'm not able to follow, in the English, what to
25 look at. Is it line 9 or paragraph 9? I see the answer at paragraph 7 on
1 this document.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in English, it is the
3 fourth bullet which starts with: "Department of Military Security
4 Service," and in the Bosnian --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In the Bosnian version, Witness, do you see, I believe it's in the
8 ninth line, it says: "Department of Military Security Service of the
9 Security Administration of the Ministry of Defence." Do you see that?
10 A. Yes, I do see that.
11 Q. Now please take a look at this same part. Do you agree that parts
12 of the Administration for Personnel, Mobilisation, Legal, parts of the
13 Administration for Moral Guidance, Logistics, and so on and so forth also
14 worked there?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. Please look at item 3 now. It refers to control at the command
17 post, at the Kakanj command post. Would you please be so kind as to read
18 item 3 to yourself, not aloud, and then I will ask you a question in
19 connection with it.
20 In connection with it, I should like to ask you this: It is true,
21 isn't it, that the work of the administration organs and of parts of the
22 Staff of the Supreme Command which were located in Kakanj unfolded in
23 accordance with the Staff plan under the direct control of the Chief of
24 Staff Hadzihasanovic; am I right?
25 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
1 Q. Very well. So you saw this order, and I should like to ask you,
2 in that connection, this: You arrived in the course of 1994 and stayed
3 there up until a period after the Dayton Accords. Is it true that, in
4 fact, the Staff of the Supreme Command, i.e., its segment in Kakanj,
5 functioned in the way envisaged in this item 3 that you have just read?
6 Did it evolve in practice in keeping with this order?
7 A. Yes. It did evolve in practice in keeping with it.
8 Q. Very well. As regards this question of control and command in
9 Kakanj, I will be reverting to it later on; but at this point, I should
10 like to ask you something about the service -- the Military Security
11 Service, in view of what you saw in this bullet number 4 -- or rather, in
12 the Bosnian line number 9 "Department of Military Security Service of the
13 Security Administration."
14 Mr. Berbic, I concluded from your testimony that during 1994 and
15 1995, namely, while you worked at Kakanj, you were a member of that
16 particular service. Is my conclusion correct?
17 A. It is.
18 Q. It is true, is it not, that the Military Security Service, in the
19 course of 1994, was actually comprised within the framework of the
20 Ministry of Defence; am I correct? It was an integral part of the
21 Ministry of Defence?
22 I'm asking you. I'm not talking about your particular segment.
23 I'm talking about the Military Security Service as a whole. The Military
24 Security Service as a whole, did it function as part of the Ministry of
1 A. As far as I can recall, it functioned within the framework of the
2 Ministry of Defence, but I believe that later the Military Security
3 Service came to be comprised within the Main Staff of the Army of
5 Q. When you say "later," is this 1994 or some period in 1995?
6 A. I believe that it was already the period when I arrived or perhaps
7 a bit later. I cannot recall exact exactly.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. In this connection, I
9 should like the witness to consult 375 -- 385 --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: D375.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D375.
12 For the transcript, this is an excerpt from temporary
13 establishment structure, number...
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not catch the number.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] ... of the Ministry of Defence of
16 the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, with Staff attached units.
17 The number was T412.303, from March 1994.
18 Q. Yes. Could you please take a look at page 2 of this document?
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 2 of
20 this document?
21 Q. Just before we move on to commenting on this document, please, for
22 the needs of the Trial Chamber and all of us here, because we are not
23 soldiers by profession, if I can put it that way, please be so kind as to
24 clarify the following: Am I right if I take it that a temporary
25 establishment structure is a document which actually prescribes the
1 composition of a certain formation in war; am I right?
2 A. Yes, you are right.
3 Q. In other words, parts of units are designated or parts or
4 formations which are comprised within that unit; am I right?
5 A. Yes, you are.
6 Q. Temporary formations apply until the time of the adoption of
7 other, i.e., the prescription of new formations or establishment
8 structures; am I right?
9 A. You are, that's correct.
10 Q. We are still on page 2 of this document. Do you see that this
11 temporary formation document was signed by the Minister of Defence,
12 Hamdija Hasanovic, on the 25th of March, 1994; am I right?
13 A. Yes. This is the date the document bears.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Your Honours, if the witness can now move on to page 3.
16 Q. Witness, please, can you now take a look -- a closer look at this
17 chart, and specifically look at the chart of the Ministry of Defence with
18 headquarters, support units.
19 Do you agree that we have the Presidency at the top, then the
20 Government of the Federation, then the Ministry of Defence?
21 And this connection, what does this mean where it says "General
22 Staff" and "Commander," and this arrow pointing at it? Can you clarify
23 for us?
24 Thank you very much. I apologise. If you can be of assistance,
1 A. This line on the right means that they were in communication, that
2 they were in contact. I don't know what concretely you mean.
3 Q. I mean --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you talk of the line that points to "General
5 Staff," I'm not with you, Madam Vidovic, and I understand that things are
6 very faded here. I can't see very well. I may perhaps just not be seeing
7 the words "General Staff" because I can't read it.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I see. Your Honours, I apologise.
9 Perhaps I wasn't quite clear.
10 Here you have a square on the right-hand side, where it is written
11 "Commander"; and above it, in the English text, you have the words "GS,"
12 and in brackets, "Main Staff," "Main Staff."
13 In fact, Your Honours, I never could tell my right hand from my
14 left-hand side. I hope you understood me properly. Perhaps that is where
15 I was confused.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my problem, Madam Vidovic. I was just about
17 to ask you, "to the right of the diagram or to my right?" Which right?
18 To my left?
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: You're right.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. So it is to the right. I hope
21 that you can see it now. It is this part where it says the "Main Staff,"
22 just above the word "Commander."
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I now know when you say
24 "right," I must go left.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. Well, it appears to
1 be so.
2 Q. Witness, please --
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it being almost time
4 for our break, perhaps we could go back to this document after the break.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take a break and come
6 back at quarter to 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness, before the break we discussed the organisational chart of
12 the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of B and H, with the headquarters,
13 support units. There's the Ministry of Defence in the middle, then the
14 minister. I am interested in the boxes below.
15 Somewhere in the middle, do you see a box that reads "Security
17 A. Yes, I can see that.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see it in the English, please. Yes. Thank
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I wanted to ask you this: When this temporary establishment was
22 in place during 1994, the Security Administration was subordinated to the
23 Ministry of Defence; am I correct?
24 A. You are.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can show
1 the next page of the document to the witness, please. Very well.
2 I believe the witness's assistance will be needed, since we will
3 regularly encounter certain terms pertaining to the Security
4 Administration throughout the case.
5 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned the first, second, and third department.
6 Do you agree with me that this is the organisational chart of the Security
7 Administration? Yesterday, you mentioned a Department for
8 Counterintelligence Affairs. You also mentioned the Department for
9 Information analysis; is that correct? Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes. This is the chart that I discussed.
11 Q. The last department, if I'm correct, is to the right-hand side.
12 It is the Department for Staff and Security, Military Police Personnel,
13 and Legal Affairs. Is that the part you testified about yesterday, when
14 you said that you were a member of that department, that you personally
15 worked for that department; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, I worked in that department.
17 Q. I wanted to ask you what is the most relevant portion concerning
18 this chart for me. A section of this department went to the Kakanj
19 command post following the minister's decision; is that correct?
20 A. As far as I know, that section went to the Kakanj command post,
21 and it was operational there.
22 Q. To be more specific, that is the section for staff and security
23 and military police affairs; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it correct that that section that was in Kakanj had close ties
1 with the Chief of Staff?
2 A. Yes, it is correct. Its name describes and explains its link to
3 the Chief of Staff.
4 Q. In Kakanj?
5 A. Yes, at the Kakanj command post.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your Honours,
7 I wish to tender this document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
9 please be given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 369.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, I believe I am correct if I say that the organisation of
14 life and work at the Kakanj command post was done in a way that -- in the
15 way that it complied with the rules of service of the Army of
17 A. It was in accordance with the rules of service of the Army of
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we could show
21 D377 to the witness. For the record, this is a document drafted at the
22 General Staff at Kakanj, dated the 29th of March, 1995, on the
23 organisation of life and work at the General Staff KM. It is an order.
24 Q. Witness, first and foremost, I would like to ask you whether you
25 want to have a hard copy that I have here, since I am not sure you can
1 read what's on the screen. I believe we will be able to read the relevant
2 portion; however, if you encounter any difficulties, I do have a hard copy
3 that I can offer.
4 Please have a look at the document. Do you agree that in the
5 title, it says "Organisation of Life and Work at the Command Post of the
6 General Staff of the Army of B and H," and that it is an order?
7 A. Yes. It says that this organisation has to do with
8 organisation --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That this order ...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]... has to do with the organisation
11 of life and work at the command post of the General Staff at the ARBH.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can you see that the introductory portion of the order invokes the
14 rules of service in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
15 A. Yes. In the portion at the beginning, it says: "Pursuant to the
16 rules of service in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and in order to
17 regulate the life and work at the KM GS ARBH.
18 Q. Very well. Witness, have a look at item 2, please. It says
19 "Command and Control."
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I will slowly read it. It says: "At a time when the commander is
22 absent from the KM, the Chief of Staff ..."
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just an explanation
24 for your sake and the sake of the rest in the courtroom.
25 Q. Witness, please, first, tell us whether it is correct that the
1 acronym "RIK" means "command and control" or "to command and control"; do
2 you agree?
3 A. Yes, that's what the acronym means.
4 Q. And you've encountered it numerous times?
5 A. I have.
6 Q. "At a time when the commander is absent from the KM, the Chief of
7 Staff of the ARBH exercises command and control; and at a time when both
8 of them are absent, command and control shall be taken over by the officer
9 holding the highest position or rank, or an officer assigned by a special
10 order of the commander or the Chief of Staff.
11 "The Chief of Staff shall exercise command and control by using
12 military police through the administration organ at the command post.
13 Post. The command and control headquarters administration should be
14 exercised by the Operations Administration."
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at the
16 last page, page 4 of the document, so that the witness could see the
17 signature there, and then I will resume my questions regarding the
19 Q. Can you see the signature, Witness? Can you recognise it?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 Q. This is the signature of General Delic, is it not?
22 A. I recognise it as General Delic's signature.
23 Q. Witness, for a certain period, including 1995, you worked in
24 Kakanj, and you know how things functioned there. Is it correct that the
25 command and control at the command post at Kakanj functioned exactly the
1 way as regulated by this order?
2 A. Precisely so. Yes, it functioned in that way.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to tender
5 this document.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
7 please be given an exhibit number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 370.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Yesterday, you provided answers to the Prosecutor's questions, and
12 you also replied to certain questions posed by Judge Harhoff today that
13 had to do with General Delic and his stay in Kakanj. Do you recall that?
14 A. Yes, I remember yesterday's questions.
15 Q. Mr. Berbic, did I understand correctly that you basically today
16 said that General Delic was seldom in Kakanj? Did I understand that
18 A. What I knew at the time and what I could see, based on that
19 knowledge, he was in Kakanj seldom.
20 Q. I would like to remind you of the statement you gave to the OTP
21 investigators. In it, and I would like to quote paragraph 83 of the
22 statement dated the 16th of September, 2005, whereby you explained that he
23 came when he would have to travel abroad or had some work to do in the
24 area; is that correct? Did you say that?
25 A. Yes, I did. As to whether he indeed went abroad, I cannot recall,
1 but I think there were certain situations like that. He also toured other
2 corps and units at the defence lines of the Army of the Republic of BH.
3 So when he could go there or return from there, occasionally I
4 would see him either at the Operations Centre for a short time or I would
5 learn of his arrival at the KM.
6 Q. How often, how frequent was it? Can you tell us how often or how
7 seldom you saw him there?
8 A. I'd say I saw him seldom, infrequently.
9 Q. Thank you. You said that he had his office in the DC facility. Do
10 you remember that?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. His cabinet, and I do not mean physically the office -- or rather,
13 let me ask you this first: When he came there, he used the room you
14 specified as being his office; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'm talking about his cabinet and the personnel that worked with
17 him. The members of his cabinet, they did not work there, did they?
18 A. The members of his cabinet did not work there, except for 1995, on
19 several occasions, his secretary was there, or rather, she stayed at the
20 motel. She had a room there, if that's what you had in mind.
21 Q. First and foremost, I meant his Chef de Cabinet. For instance, in
22 1995, it was Mr. Bulpasic. Did he used to work there or in Sarajevo?
23 A. Mr. Bulpasic did not work there.
24 Q. What about Mr. Zeljko Grubesic?
25 A. Mr. Zeljko Grubesic?
1 Q. Who was his associate.
2 A. I didn't see him there.
3 Q. Mr. Murat Softic, the former Chef de Cabinet?
4 A. I didn't see Murat Softic there, either.
5 Q. It's correct, is it not, that his associates would pass by at the
6 Kakanj command post?
7 A. When they would come to the KM Kakanj, there would usually be a
8 driver, an escort, the secretary. I don't know whether there was anyone
10 Q. Therefore, the General and his cabinet, and the colonel of the of
11 the Staff of the Supreme Command, in principle stayed elsewhere, not in
12 Kakanj; would that be a fair thing to say?
13 A. Yes, it would.
14 Q. As far as you know, tell us this: All activities that had to do
15 with combat actions and operations actually took place at the command post
16 in Kakanj; am I correct?
17 A. Yes, such activities would usually take place at the KM in Kakanj.
18 Q. I will move on to a different topic.
19 Now, yesterday, you testified on the modus of reporting between
20 the corps and the command post at Kakanj. Do you recall that?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Specifically, I'd like to ask some questions of you that had to do
23 with the role of the Kakanj command post in the process of reporting.
24 First of all, I wanted to ask you this: Do you agree that there
25 are rules in place -- that there were rules in place concerning the system
1 of dissemination of information among units? You are aware of that, since
2 you worked in communications; is that so?
3 A. Yes. There were rules on the way of submitting reports.
4 Q. Thank you. The rule was for the lower unit to report to the first
5 immediately superior unit; am I correct?
6 A. That was the way it was, according to the rule of service, yes.
7 Q. In other words, a battalion could not report to a corps, nor could
8 a brigade report to the Supreme Command, provided it was not -- it had not
9 been directly subordinated to it; am I correct?
10 A. You are, that is correct.
11 Q. At the command post of the Supreme Command Staff at Kakanj,
12 therefore, received reports from the corps on events unfolding in their
13 zones of responsibility; right?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. So they did not -- it did not receive reports, for instance, from
16 divisions or brigades? From divisions or brigades.
17 A. It was not supposed to receive reports from divisions or brigades,
18 according to the rule of work.
19 Q. Very well. In fact, the corps command or the appropriate
20 department compiled a report on what they considered to be essential for
21 their zone of responsibility; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you agree that the manner of reporting between the corps and
24 the command post of the Supreme Command Staff was regulated by an order?
25 Was it the case? Did you know that?
1 A. Yes. It was certainly regulated by an order but, of course, I
2 cannot recall which one.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
4 Your Honours, can the witness please be now shown D378.
5 Your Honours, I should like to explain. We are going to be using
6 two documents as D378 which bear the same date, which is the 27th of
7 December, 1994. Both are documents of the Supreme Command Staff, and they
8 concern the regulation of the dispatching of reports.
9 Q. Witness, would you please first look at this page that you see
10 before you. Would you agree that it says that it is a document of the
11 Supreme Command Staff at the Kakanj command post, the date being the 27th
12 of December, 1994?
13 A. I agree that that is the heading and that that is the date on it.
14 Q. And it concerns the sending of reports. It says "Report sending"?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. And then it goes on to say sent, addressed to all corps, inter
17 alia. Witness, please bear with me and listen carefully. I'm going to
18 read this order out for you.
19 The first item says: "Corps commands and units in the General
20 Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina shall, in future, send their
21 combat reports exclusively to the KM in Kakanj. Combat reports from the
22 corps which contain crucial changes on the BH front, positive or negative
23 reports indicating problems under the jurisdiction of the General Staff
24 commander, will be forwarded to the commander, wherever he may be at the
25 moment, by the duty OC/Operations Centre."
1 Please take a look at the signature which says "Deputy Commander."
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that seems to be on
3 the next page in English.
4 Q. "Deputy Commander," and at the same time Chief of the Supreme
5 Command Staff. The name which is typewritten is "Hadzihasanovic," but
6 obviously someone signed in his stead.
7 Are you familiar with that signature?
8 A. I can not remember. It is written "Enver Hadzihasanovic," but I
9 cannot really recall whether this is indeed his signature.
10 Q. Very well. But let me ask you this in relation to this document.
11 A. It does say "for" here?
12 Q. Yes. That's what I said "for."
13 Very well. Let us go on. It is true, is it not, that as of this
14 date, which is the 27th of December, 1994, the corps commands dispatched
15 combat reports exclusively to the Kakanj command post, and that is where
16 you received them? Is that correct?
17 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
18 Q. Very well. Yesterday, you testified about certain reports of the
19 3rd Corps sent to the Kakanj command post, did you not? Do you remember
21 A. Yes. I read out some sentences from those reports and commented
22 on those reports.
23 Q. Very well. Thank you. Witness, let us now take a look at page 2,
24 the second portion of this document.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The next page of this document,
2 Your Honours, perhaps, this is a rather faded copy, so we shall
3 give a hard copy to the witness of this document.
4 Q. Witness, please, please take a look.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Sometimes, Your Honours, we have a
6 problem with the scanning, and the copy which is produced is not as clear
7 as the original document.
8 Q. So, Witness, please, take a look at this document. Do we agree
9 that it also bears the date the 27th December, that it also regulates the
10 subject matter of the sending of reports, and that it is an order?
11 You can gather as much from the document; right?
12 A. Right. Exactly. That is exactly what is written here.
13 Q. I will quote for you: "In order to secure the functioning of
14 command and control and the necessary degree of protection and of security
15 of information, I order: Summary combat reports from the Staff of the
16 Army of the BiH will be delivered by the Administration for Operations
17 Affairs via the Operations Centre in Sarajevo to the Presidency; to the
18 commander of the General Staff of the Army when he is in Sarajevo; to the
19 Main Logistics Centre, Visoko; and to the Administration for Morale for
20 the purpose of informing the public."
21 What -- the question that I want to put to you has to do with
22 this: When the document says "will be delivered by the Administration for
23 Operations Planning via the Operations Centre," summary reports will be
24 delivered through them -- by them, that is.
25 I should like to ask you about what you said yesterday when you
1 said, "We would prepare these reports in sublimated form." What you
2 actually meant is that you summarised the reports or you prepared summary
3 reports. Did I understand you correctly?
4 A. Yes, that is precisely what I meant.
5 Q. So this order was respected throughout 1995, was it not, as long
6 as you worked there?
7 A. This is the way in which we worked through the Operations
8 Centre -- this is the way we worked through the Operations Centre, as I
9 also mentioned before.
10 Q. In other words, the commander of the Supreme Command Staff did not
11 receive reports that arrived at the Kakanj command post from corps, but
12 all the corps reports would be summarised, summaries prepared, and sent to
13 Sarajevo, to the Presidency, and inter alia also to the commander; am I
15 A. You are right.
16 Q. Very well. This document also states: "Deputy commander, at the
17 same time, Chief of Staff Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic"; is that
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. And you were aware of these functions of his, were you not?
21 A. Yes. This was also regulated by the order; his function, that is.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can these two
24 documents be tendered under one number?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The two documents are admitted under one number.
1 May it please be given an exhibit number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 371.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I shall try to
5 demonstrate what we have been discussing on an example of a document, so
6 could you please put away these documents and show the witness the same
7 exhibit that he saw yesterday, that was shown to him by the Prosecutor;
8 that is, Exhibit 363.
9 For the transcript, this is a document of the Command of the 3rd
10 Corps of the 16th of June, 1995, which says "Regular Combat Report."
11 Q. You read it yesterday, Witness; namely, that this report was sent
12 to the General or Main Staff at the command post at Kakanj. Do you
13 remember that?
14 A. Yes, I do remember.
15 Q. You looked at it yesterday. Please remember this date. I should
16 like to direct your attention at this part where it says: "The situation
17 and the activities of the enemy," where it refers to the Zavidovici --
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you.
19 We would like Their Honours also to be able to see that portion of
20 the document that I'm referring to.
21 Q. So it says: "The situation and activities of the enemy," and you
22 can see it refers to the Zavidovici-Mount Ozren axis and the
23 Vranduk-Prnjavor and the Tesanj-De Venta axes. We are concerned with
24 these two axes.
25 Please focus on and remember one of these axis; for instance, this
1 first one, the Zavidovici-Ozren axis under item 1.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page number 1 again,
3 please, item 1?
4 Q. Look here under the Zavidovici-Ozren Mountain axis. There is a
5 description of the aggressor's activities and the region of Jablanica is
6 referred to, so please make a mental note of that.
7 After that, look at the Vranduk-Prnjavor axis, which is on the
8 next page in the English version, and look, for instance, at this. It
9 says: "On the Vranduk-Prnjavor axis, the aggressor organised attacks from
10 the direction of Kosovnjak and Balabanovac."
11 Right. I'm just asking you to remember these locations that I'm
12 referring to.
13 Very well. Now, please look, again, at the portion shown to you
14 yesterday by the Prosecutor, which is under item 2, item 2, which
15 describes a situation and says: "The 35th Division."
16 The last sentence says: "The next combat activities will be
17 executed in which the El Mujahid Detachment will be participating."
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And for Theirs Honours, if the next
19 page could be shown, because that particular portion is shown on the next
20 page. Yes.
21 Q. Please make a mental note of this also, Witness. You remember
22 commenting on this yesterday?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this document can
25 be now moved away, as I wish to show you another document.
1 Can the witness please take a look at D385. This is a report.
2 I apologise, Your Honours. Your Honours, I should just like to
3 say at this point, as you are not going to have the entire document
4 translated, that we really encounter serious problems with translations,
5 which practically block me in my cross-examinations.
6 So we are only able to have the most essential parts translated,
7 and I do regret the fact that you cannot see these documents translated
8 into English in their entirety. I shall certainly request that this
9 document be completely translated, but, believe me, it is beyond my powers
10 to do anything to improve the situation, and I am asking you to please
11 bear with me.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll bear with you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,
14 for your understanding.
15 Q. Please, Witness, this is a report of the General Staff of the
16 Army, the Administration for Operations/Planning in Kakanj of the 17th of
17 June, 1995. The document is entitled "Situation in the Theatre of War"
18 for the 16th of June, 1995. Is that correct?
19 Do you agree that it says that this memo is to be submitted to the
20 president of the ARBiH Presidency and to the commander of the Army?
21 A. Yes. I agree that this is what it says. And next to the
22 commander there's also the GLOC Command mentioned there.
23 Q. Thank you. From this particular section, we can see that on the
24 17th of June, 1995, on that date, the General Staff of Army in Kakanj,
25 through the Planning Administration, forwards information on the situation
1 on the 16th of June, and the information is sent to these addressees. Is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. They also state the commander -- they mention the commander of the
5 army here; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recall me showing you earlier today the document dated the
8 27th of December, which stipulated that the Operations/Planning
9 Administration should be forwarding summary reports to Sarajevo, to both
10 the Presidency and the commander? Do you recall that this was the case?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. And as you see, this document confirms this, because it says the
13 Operations/Planning Administration -- or rather the Administration for
14 Operative Planning as the author of this document?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And this is the way that things operated in practice; is that
18 A. Yes. The administration drafted the document and forwarded it to
19 these addressees through the DC [as interpreted].
20 Q. Please look at page 2 of the document now?
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And let's have the top of the page,
23 Q. Take a look at this, and do you agree that the activities of the
24 aggressor are being described there, and then the activities of our
1 A. Yes, I do agree. This is in compliance with the standard
2 procedure governing these reports and their particular headlines.
3 Q. Thank you. Please look at page 3 of the document now.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the part where the
5 signature can be seen in the Bosnian version, please.
6 Q. Do you agree that we can see that the document was drafted by the
7 head of the Duty Service, Ibrahim Begic? Do you know that person?
8 A. Yes. He drafted the report. I know the person, and he has passed
10 Q. But at the time, he was working there?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 1 on our screens
13 once more.
14 Your Honours, can we just correct a mistake on the transcript.
15 On page 47, line 1 -- or rather, the previous line, line 25, my
16 question was: "In what way did things operate in practice?"
17 The witness said: "The administration drafted the document and
18 forwarded it to the addressees," and the witness said "through the
19 Operations Centre" and not "through the Distribution Centre."
20 If we could clarify this with the witness.
21 Q. Was it the Operations Centre?
22 A. Yes, yes, yes. The report went through the Operations Centre,
23 where there was the duty officer.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This mistake was on page 47, line 1;
25 instead of -- or rather, the "DC" was recorded instead of the "OC,"
1 "Operations Centre," if this could be rectified.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam. I guess it has been
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
5 Q. Witness, look at page 1 and tell me if you agree that what this
6 describes are the aggressor's activities. I wish to draw your attention
7 to the last sentence of the document.
8 You see here, in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps,
9 which is relevant to our case, and that's why my question has to do with
10 that. Do you agree --
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, I'm referring to
12 the lower bottom part of the document, beneath the headline "Aggressor's
13 Activities." There should be a body of text following that.
14 Q. Witness, it says here that the aggressor acted against places and
15 so on and so forth. You see that the area of responsibility of the 3rd
16 Corps is being described here; do you see that?
17 A. Yes. This has to do with the 3rd Corps.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 2 in the
19 English version.
20 Q. Please look at the section of the document where the 35th Division
21 is being described. In the beginning, they're describing the activities
22 of the 35th Division in their area of responsibility in the Ozren part of
23 the theatre. Heightened movement was noted in the area of the Jablanica
25 Do you recall me mentioning certain locations in the report of the
1 3rd Corps? Is it true that the 16th of June report concerning the 3rd
2 Corps dealt with this particular part of the theatre?
3 A. I do recall that.
4 Q. The mentioning of Jablanica in that other report?
5 A. Yes, the mention of Jablanica.
6 Q. And please look at the section where they're mentioning the
7 Vranduk-Prnjavor axis, where they're saying that the aggressor carried out
8 infantry attacks from Kosovnjak and Balabanovac towards the Pribije
10 Do you recall these localities being mentioned in the 16th of June
11 report of the 3rd Corps that I just referred to a moment ago?
12 A. Yes, I do, I recall that. I recall the location of Balabanovac
13 that has been mentioned.
14 Q. Thank you. Please look at the text that follows further down,
15 concerning the "Activities of our Forces." Do you agree that it is the
16 first time that the 2nd and 3rd Corps are being mentioned, at the very
17 bottom of the document, where it says: "In the area of responsibility of
18 the 3rd, 4th, and 7th Corps, our forces responded occasionally to the
19 provocations by the aggressor."
20 In doing that, the firing positions of the aggressor were noted,
21 as well as their fortifying positions and coordinating fire.
22 Please look further down, where it says "Casualties" or"Losses."
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be scrolled up,
24 please, so we can see the bottom part of it, and can we have the following
25 page in both versions.
1 Q. Losses concerning the 2nd and 3rd Corps, we can only see "1 TR."
2 That's for the 2nd Corps, and there were "2 TR" and "3 LR" for the 3rd
4 I suppose that "TR" and "LR" stand for severely or lightly
5 wounded. Would you agree with me, sir?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Please go carefully through the document now.
8 Before I put my question, let's go back to what we said. We said
9 that "LR" stood for "Lightly Wounded" and "TR" for "Severely Wounded." I
10 thought you agreed with me on that point.
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. You've just seen the 16th of June report that the 3rd Corps had
13 sent to the Kakanj General Staff. You saw that there was a piece of
14 information concerning the El Mujahedin Detachment there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you agree with me that, quite simply, the piece of
17 information dated the 16th of June went from Kakanj to Sarajevo, to the
18 commander and Presidency, and that this piece of information has simply
19 disappeared when it comes to this summary report from Kakanj?
20 A. This summary report does not contain that piece of information
21 which had been sent to Sarajevo. It has been left out.
22 Q. Would you agree with me that it was left out simply because this
23 was a lower-ranking unit which did not bear any significance for the
24 strategic level of the army; is that right?
25 A. The duty officer who drafted the report decided on whether to
1 include that piece of information or not. He was experienced enough to do
2 that job. The level of a detachment would not normally be included in
3 such reports, unless there were some radical situations involved.
4 Therefore, my answer to your question would be, "Yes."
5 Q. Let us clarify this. A radical situation would involve some
6 unusual and highly-significant events or security problems, and only such
7 a piece of information would then be sent on to the commander; is that
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be assigned an
11 exhibit number, please.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
13 please be given an exhibit number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 372.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we set this document aside now.
17 I want the witness to look at another combat report.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask you a question, because I thought
19 that the purpose of showing us these documents was to give us examples of
20 documents submitted through the witness, some of which would go only to
21 the command post in Kakanj, while others would be so important that they
22 would be forwarded directly to the Main Staff.
23 If this is correctly understood, then my question is: Which of
24 these documents would then only go to Kakanj and which of them would be so
25 important as to be forwarded directly to the Main Staff?
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, quite respectfully, it
2 seems to me that this was not my intention. Yesterday, the Prosecutor
3 showed a report to the witness which was sent from the 3rd Corps to the
4 Kakanj command post.
5 The witness testified that out of this extensive report and
6 several other different reports arriving in Kakanj, a summary report was
7 made. I have just shown what the summary report was like, with the
8 intention of showing what sort of information reached the commander in
9 Sarajevo, in fact.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. I find this helpful.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Your Honour.
12 I will be dealing with the other sort of documents that the
13 Prosecutor had been dealing with, by all means.
14 Could the witness be shown document P22 -- or rather P02272. This
15 is a regular combat report dated the 20th of July, 1995. It was also made
16 by the 3rd Corps and was sent to the Kakanj command post.
17 Q. Witness, please have a good look at the document once it appears
18 on the screen. Bear the date in mind. Do you agree with me that this is
19 the 3rd Corps Command report dated the 20th of July, 1995, and addressed
20 to Kakanj? Do you see that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. As you see, the document speaks of the situation and the
23 activities of the enemy, UN forces, and UNMO. Look at the axes involved.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown, one by
25 one, the second, third and fourth pages of the document.
1 Q. Take a good look, please. You see the situation and activities of
2 the 3rd Corps are being described here at the top of page 2; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if you can see it in
6 the English version. Yes, Your Honours, now you can see the situation in
7 the 3rd Corps.
8 Further down, the combat morale situation is described. Now you
9 can see it. Can we have the next page, both versions.
10 Q. You see, Witness, the mobilisation and organisation-related
11 issues, reinforcement, the logistic support. And at the bottom, you see,
12 added in handwriting, "the security situation." This was added in
13 handwriting by someone?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let's have a look at
16 the next page in English.
17 Q. You see there: "State of security, security situation." I
18 believe you were able to view this document.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now if we can have a look at the
20 last page, where the signature is, and Their Honours can see it as well.
21 Q. It says "Commander." "Colonel Ekrem Alihodzic, on behalf of the
22 Commander." Can you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask for
25 an exhibit number for this document, please.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 373.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Madam Vidovic, how much longer are you going to be? According to
6 the time calculation, you're left with two minutes compared to what the
7 Prosecution used.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think half an hour.
9 I believe that this is sensitive subject matter and that we would require
10 more time than allocated for me to be able to make you understand the
11 matters discussed clearly.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, perhaps I failed to mention something. In the previous
15 document, I think there was a mention of the El Mujahedin Detachment. I
16 omitted this.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we can have the
18 document back on the screen. I don't know whether it is -- it has been
19 exhibited. I think it is 373. Perhaps we can have a look at the second
20 page one more time. Exhibit 373, second page, please. Page 2, please.
21 Perhaps it is on the next page, where it says "Situation and
22 Activities." The next page in the English.
23 Q. Witness, please focus on the part which says -- look at the
24 paragraph which says there was a regrouping of forces.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you can see that.
1 Q. There was a regrouping of forces. It says --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Perhaps counsel could specify which paragraph
3 she was reading from.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counsel, you're asked by the interpreters to
5 specify where you're reading from.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I was reading from the
7 second page, under the title "Situation and Activities of the Forces of
8 the 3rd Corps," the third paragraph. It is marked now.
9 Q. "Redeployment of the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion, forces from the 1st
10 Corps zone of responsibility to the 35th Division. Zone of responsibility
11 is completed in the village of Cardak with the purpose of joining the El
12 Mujahedin Detachment."
13 Witness, please bear that in mind. This is the report sent by the
14 corps the KM Kakanj on the 20th.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can put this document
16 away now and show another document to the witness, D379. For the
17 transcript, this is a Command Post Kakanj document dated the 21st of July,
18 1995, with the title "Situation in the Bosnia-Herzegovina Theatre" for the
19 20th of July, 1995. This document is to be distributed to the army
20 commander and the president of the Presidency.
21 Q. Do you agree with me, Witness, that this is what it says, that
22 this is a General Staff document from Kakanj, the 21st of July?
23 Below that, it says: "Situation in the BH theatre on the 20th of
24 July, 1995"; and among others, the commander is one of the addressees.
25 Can you see that?
1 A. Yes, I can.
2 Q. Please have a look at the introductory portion. Do you agree with
3 me that it says: "Based on daily combat reports of corps commands," and
4 so on and so forth. This is the situation on the BH front on the 20th of
5 July, 1995; can you see that?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 Q. The subtitle says: "Activities of the Aggressor" on the first
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us move on to the second page,
11 Q. Witness, have a look at "The Activities of Our Forces." Do you
12 agree with me that these are activities of the units of the 1st, 2nd, and
13 3rd Corps that were described here? Do you agree that the activities of
14 all corps on the 20th of July were described on this single page?
15 A. Yes, I agree with that.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now move on to page 3.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we scroll the English down, please. Can we see
18 the top of the page. Thank you. Can we keep going. Thank you.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at page 2 again.
20 No, the third page, in the middle. In the English as well. The second
21 page of the English, please.
22 Please let us see where it says the 3rd Corps. Thank you.
23 Q. Witness, have a look at the text where it says "the 3rd Corps" out
24 loud. Not out loud, sorry. Read it to yourself.
25 It literally takes up the space of only five lines, if I'm
1 correct, six perhaps.
2 A. There are five lines of text.
3 Q. Very well. Witness, we saw the reports for the 20th of July,
4 1995, that was sent from the 3rd Corps to the command post of the General
5 Staff in Kakanj. It had four pages, if you recall.
6 Now, those four pages become five lines of text in this document;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Do you agree that there is no mention here of the El Mujahedin
10 unit in this part of the text that has to do with the activities of the
11 3rd Corps? Please have a careful look.
12 A. Yes. As far as I can see, there is no such mention. There is no
13 mention of that detachment.
14 Q. Thank you. Is this an example of the summary reports you sent
15 after having received corps reports at the command post in Kakanj? You
16 would send such reports to the Presidency and General Delic in Sarajevo.
17 Is this an example of such a summary report?
18 A. Yes, it is. It contains all of the items that needed to be
19 reported on. That is how I recognise it.
20 Q. Does this confirm what you told us before, and that was that the
21 units of small size, such as companies and detachments, would not make it
22 into such a report unless there was a specific reason?
23 A. They would not, unless some drastic situations had to be
24 mentioned, completely extraordinary situations.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have
2 an exhibit number for this document, and I believe it is time for our
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 374.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.
9 We'll take a break and come back at half past 12.00.
10 Court adjourned.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. Witness, before the break, we stopped at those summary reports. I
16 would like you to give us another clarification. I was showing to you
17 reports from the 3rd Corps that had arrived at the command post of the
18 Staff in Kakanj, and then reports that were sent from Kakanj to Sarajevo,
19 to the Presidency or the commander; right?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. In this connection, I should like to ask you whether it is also
22 correct that all other corps dispatched such reports; namely, reports on
23 daily combat activities which they sent to Kakanj?
24 A. That is correct, or the other corps and the GLOC, which is the
25 main logistic centre, also did.
1 Q. So, such summary report was to comprise all the information that
2 had arrived at the Kakanj command post from all the corps. It was to be,
3 as you put it, "sublimated" and then submitted to Sarajevo; right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Witness, I do not have much time on my hands to show you a lot of
6 other documents, but I should like to remind you that the Prosecutor
7 showed you, yesterday, Exhibit 361. This was a daily combat report of the
8 3rd Corps of the 8th of October, 1994. Do you remember that? A report
9 from 1994 was shown to you.
10 A. I cannot remember what it was about.
11 Q. I will remind you. There was also a report from the 3rd Corps
12 from the 3rd of April, 1995. This was Exhibit 362. I would remind you,
13 in both these reports, you read out for our benefit portions which dealt
14 with information on the El Mujahedin Detachment, sent from the 3rd Corps
15 to the Kakanj command post. Do you remember them now?
16 A. Yes, now I do. Yes. They were shown to me.
17 Q. Witness, you can in no way confirm for us that that information
18 from the -- were actually sent from the Kakanj Staff, Supreme Command
19 Staff, to General Delic, can you?
20 A. What I do know is that such information was comprised within a
21 joint report in the Operations Centre in Kakanj, and then that report
22 would be submitted to the known addresses in Sarajevo, the commander and
23 the others. I'm not aware of any other ways.
24 Q. Thank you. So we would have to consult those reports to see what
25 exactly had gone to Sarajevo; right?
1 A. Right.
2 Q. Thank you. As regards these reports, you actually don't know
3 anything; and when I say "these reports," I'm referring to the reports of
4 the 3rd Corps which contained information about the El Mujahid, the ones
5 that you read yesterday, namely. So you personally don't know anything
6 about the accuracy of the information that was written in those reports?
7 A. I don't know. That information was received in the form of
8 reports, which I neither verified nor needed to check out. I simply
9 participated sometimes in the compiling of a joint report, in respect of
10 the elements which pertained to the security item.
11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Berbic, I shall now like to ask you a
12 different thing, because you are one of the rare witnesses who could
13 appear before this Tribunal and who has actually worked both on security
14 duties, while at the same time being a communications expert. Therefore,
15 I will ask you to clarify some of the things which figure very often here,
16 in terms of contents of documents and their manner of transmission.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness be
18 shown at this point D380.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, may I ask you to slow down a little
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I
22 will do so, and I apologise.
23 D380, Your Honours, this is a document which consists of three
24 sub-documents, which are interlinked, as you will see.
25 Q. Witness, I should like you to look at this document of the General
1 Staff of the Army. Do you see the date, which is the 22nd of July, 1995?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And you can see that this is about -- that the General Staff
4 document is submitted to the Security Administration. That appears to be
5 the case. Can you tell us what this is actually about?
6 A. This is about, namely, this report, judging by its heading is a
7 consolidated, sublimated report about the successes of the combatants of
8 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 21st of July, 1995.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I should just like us to see the
11 signature. The second page, please, of both the English and the Bosnian
13 Q. Do you see the name written here "Deputy Chief in the SVB, Colonel
14 Sacir Arnautovic," and you knew this person, did you not?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. It is true, is it not, that General Jasarevic was this person's
17 superior at the time this document was made? Right?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to the first
20 page of this document. Can you please scroll down the English version a
21 bit. Please focus on the fifth paragraph in the document.
22 Q. This document refers to -- take a look at the fifth paragraph. It
23 refers to certain successes. I'm interested in the last sentence, which
24 says: "Fifty bodies of dead Chetniks were pulled out to our side, while
25 about 40 were captured alive by the El Mujahedin unit."
1 Please make a mental note, Witness, of this information, and now
2 take a look at the top of this document.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The very top. Please scroll down
4 the English version as well.
5 Q. Witness, please, this is of the essence. This question that you
6 refer to in your statement today, and this is a question which might be
7 sowing confusion amongst people who are not versed in communications and
8 military structures; namely, today you said that documents were
9 transmitted via cryptographic protection.
10 And as you are a specialist in signals, in communications, and as
11 you obviously know what that is, would you please be so kind, Witness, as
12 to explain to us what that means? What does it mean that a document is
13 conveyed via cryptographic protection? What happens to the original of
14 the document when it is being dispatched in this way?
15 A. When it is conveyed under cryptographic protection, the document
16 which is actually being transmitted remains with the sender. The original
17 remains with the sender.
18 Q. Is it correct that the document that is received by the recipient
19 is a retyped document, in fact?
20 A. Yes. It came to the recipient by electronic means and is just
21 simply printed at the recipient point by the printer.
22 Q. Very well. So that means when a document is transmitted under
23 cryptographic protection, as is the case here, as is written here, so when
24 it is transmitted in this way, it is not possible to see the signature.
25 It is possible to see the name of the person where there is an indication
1 of the signature; is that not right? Actually, you, yourself, drew our
2 attention to that today.
3 A. It is impossible to transmit the signature except by facsimile,
4 and this was not the case here.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now turn to the next page,
6 Your Honours. Actually, I apologise, Your Honours, the third page of this
7 document, the third page of the Bosnian version.
8 Q. Witness, please look at this document. You saw this memo of
9 information with the same date, the 22nd of July, 1995. Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall our reading this part, which is a bit lower, in the
12 version in our language?
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. It is
14 the following page in English, so that I'm going to pause for a while.
15 Thank you.
16 Q. So do you remember that we saw this bit of information about 50
17 dead bodies having been pulled out and then a tank was seized and so on
18 and so forth?
19 Do you remember that actually here there is no reference to the 40
20 people captured by the El Mujahid Detachment, which was referred to in the
21 previous document? Do you remember?
22 A. In this document, that particular reference is not made. That bit
23 of information is not contained in it.
24 Q. So in this document, where the place for the signature is, it is
25 written "Army General Rasim Delic"; do you agree? His name is indicated
2 A. Yes, his name and his position.
3 Q. Do you agree that we have some initials here?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Very well. Do you agree -- would you agree that, thus, on the
6 basis of just a document of this kind we just named, we're actually never
7 able to ascertain for a fact whether that particular person did, indeed,
8 sign the document if it was transmitted under cryptographic protection.
9 Am I right? We would have to see the original?
10 A. We would have to see the original if an encoded document was sent
11 in this way. What would be received would be only what the product of the
12 printer would be.
13 Q. Please consult all these references here about all the corps, the
14 successfully operations. Take a look at this text for a while.
15 Now please look at the following page, the next page of this
16 document in both our language and English.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please scroll down. Scroll
18 down the Bosnian version for the witness to see.
19 Q. Witness, do you agree that this is a memo with the same number,
20 the same date, exactly the same document as the one that we just saw, but
21 the signature here --
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see again, please, the
24 Q. Do you see here a "KZ" which actually indicates cryptographic date
25 of protection, and indicates the exact time when it was dispatched, 14.48
1 hours, 22nd July, 1995?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So, Witness, please take a hard look at this signature. Do you
4 agree with me that it was not actually signed by General Delic? A while
5 ago, you said that you were familiar with his signature.
6 A. I do agree. And apart from that, there is a "for" here which only
7 confirms that.
8 Q. Right. So could you tell me if you perhaps happen to know who
9 signed this? Are you familiar with this signature, if you can recognise
11 A. I'm not sure in this form, no.
12 Q. Fine. Very well. Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
14 tendered as an exhibit.
15 Q. Witness, once again, in order for us to be able to ascertain
16 whether someone has signed an original document which is being sent under
17 cryptographic data protection, we must be able to see the original; right?
18 A. Any document, every document which is transmitted under this "KZ"
19 system has to be signed in the first place in order to be sent at all.
20 That was the rule.
21 Q. Yes. But in order for us to be able to know who actually did the
22 signing, we would have to see the original; right?
23 A. Yes. We would have to see the original in the file, in the
24 protocol, to extract the actual document to see who affixed their
25 signature to it.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, a couple of lines before, you asked
2 that this document be admitted into evidence. Do you think you can allow
3 us to do that?
4 Before we do that, can I find out from the witness if he does
5 recognise the signature of the person, the signature on the left, not the
6 author, but the one who's signed under the cryptographic data protection
7 thing, "1448 hours."
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot recognise
9 that signature.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
12 exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 375.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this document aside now.
17 Q. When preparing for your testimony, you were shown a large document
18 by the Prosecutor. Its number is P03035, and they used portions of that
19 document today.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was 3059.
21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. First of all, I'd like to ask you something concerning the
23 bulletins and special information. I do not mean the contents of any
24 given bulletin, but rather about bulletins and special information in
25 general, since you also worked in the Security Administration.
1 I wanted to ask you this: Such bulletins and documents containing
2 special information are actually documents by the Security Administration
3 that were produced in a limited number of copies. Its addressees were
4 clearly prescribed. Am I correct?
5 A. Those are the documents of the Security Service, with a limited
6 number of copies produced, each of which had to be filed and sent to a
7 particular address.
8 Q. Would you agree with me that the Security Administration issued an
9 order on distributing such documents?
10 A. There was a standard procedure in place. I personally do not
11 remember seeing such a document, but there was a procedure. Such a
12 document was probably in existence; however, I do not remember it.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please show
14 D319 to the witness now -- 219. For the record, it is a document by the
15 Supreme Command Staff, Security Administration, dated the 22nd of July,
16 1993, signed by Chief Jusuf Jasarevic.
17 Q. Witness, it is a short document.
18 It says "Order," and then: "Bulletins and special information
19 documents shall be prepared in five copies and sent as follows.
20 Do you agree with me that the number of copies and addressees are
21 clearly stipulated here?
22 A. Judging by what I can see here, there were five copies, with their
23 addressees from 1 to 5.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with me that the Security Administration
25 bulletins or bulletin was intended -- or rather, the copy intended for the
1 commander would arrive at Kakanj, that particular copy, I mean?
2 A. As far as I know, that copy would come to the commander in Kakanj
3 and in Sarajevo, if he was in Sarajevo at the time or somewhere else.
4 That's what I believe.
5 Q. That is what you believe, then, but we're not talking about two
6 such copies, but only one copy?
7 A. Yes, one copy.
8 Q. Thank you. You told us you gave a statement to the Office of the
9 Prosecutor. I believe it was in October of 2005. Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes, I do remember that.
11 Q. Do you remember describing in detail the procedure used with the
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is paragraph 52 of
14 the statement.
15 Q. Witness, I wanted to ask you this: Do you remember having said
16 that you would deliver the bulletin personally to the Chief of Staff, of
17 course, in those situations when General Delic was absent?
18 A. As far as I remember, I said that if he was absent, I would hand
19 it over to the Chief of Staff or to the next highest-ranking officer of
20 the administration. I believe it was regulated in such a way that it
21 could be done with certain documents.
22 Q. Very well. So that means that you wouldn't wait for Delic to come
23 within a fortnight or a month and then to show him that, would you, or did
25 A. No, I did not. I would simply take it there when I was told to
1 and hand it over.
2 Q. The Chief of Staff, as you said, since you saw Hadzihasanovic's
3 signatures on the documents, the Chief of Staff was at the same time the
4 commander's deputy when he was absent?
5 A. Yes. We concluded that based on the organisational orders you've
6 shown me today.
7 Q. Therefore, I am correct in believing that when the commander was
8 absent, bulletins would be received by the Chief of Staff; is that
10 A. Yes. When the commander was absent, the Chief of Staff would
11 receive those.
12 Q. I want to remind you of another part of your statement. That is
13 paragraph 59, where you say that he would study the bulletins; and if he
14 deemed it necessary, he would undertake certain measures. Do you remember
16 A. Yes. I remember having said that; however, that is my assumption.
17 Q. Thank you. When we opened up this topic and during your testimony
18 yesterday and this morning, the Prosecutor showed you some documents
19 concerning the bulletins, and you told us you would take them to the DC.
20 In no way can you confirm to us whether they were actually
21 delivered to General Delic, himself, am I correct, personally to him, or
22 whether they ended up with Hadzihasanovic? Do you know any -- do you know
24 A. I cannot remember any situations in which I delivered that
25 personally to them. That was not the procedure. There was always the
1 commander's secretary there, and I couldn't get to the commander.
2 Q. Therefore, you don't know whether Delic ever saw any of the
3 bulletins, be it in Sarajevo or elsewhere, or whether his Chef de Cabinet
4 saw it? You can't assist us on that, can you?
5 A. I cannot say anything of the sort. I never saw it.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
8 this document, please.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 376.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Madam Vidovic, you have used 42 of the 30 minutes that you had
14 asked for.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a lot of
16 documents and paperwork. I don't know whether this is -- whether we've
17 given an exhibit number to this last document. We did.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have, 376. But the point I was making is that
19 you had asked for 30 minutes before the break, and we are now 33 minutes
20 after the break, and you had used 20 earlier before we went for the
21 break -- ten, rather.
22 Do sit down.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept that, Your Honour. I
24 apologise. I moved along rather slowly since we had to refer to many
25 documents; however, I do conclude my cross-examination.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say you are done with your
3 cross-examination, Madam?
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Any re-examination, Mr. Menon?
7 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour. Excuse me. Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
9 MR. MENON: If we could pull up Exhibit P03059. If we could go to
10 page 113 of the English and the B/C/S.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Menon:
12 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?
13 A. Yes, I see.
14 Q. Where is the document being sent?
15 A. This document was sent to the command post of the General Staff at
16 Kakanj, Military Security Administration, for General -- Colonel Sacir
18 Q. And what does the document instruct?
19 A. There is an instruction to the effect that the Military Security
20 Administration is forwarding this particular bulletin dated the 24th of
21 June, 1995, so that it could be delivered to the commander of the General
22 Staff of the Army, Army General Rasim Delic, for his information.
23 MR. MENON: If we could go to the next page in this document,
24 which should be page 112, English and B/C/S, please.
25 Q. Is this document also being sent to Kakanj, and does it also
1 instruct Mr. Arnautovic to forward a bulletin to General Delic, along with
2 a document entitled "SI"?
3 A. Yes. This document reads sending bulletins to the command post of
4 the General Staff of the Army at Kakanj, the same address. The
5 instruction is that it should be forwarded to the General Staff army
6 commander for his information.
7 MR. MENON: Thank you. If we could go to the next page of this
8 document, both in English and B/C/S.
9 Q. Mr. Berbic, does this document -- is this document also being sent
10 to Kakanj, and does it also instruct Colonel Arnautovic to forward a
11 bulletin and a special report to General Delic?
12 A. I would like to clarify something. The original is not sent, of
13 course. This original remained in Sarajevo; however, probably it was sent
14 to Kakanj via cryptographic protection, sent to this address.
15 Q. Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Berbic.
16 MR. MENON: If we could now go to --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, that clarification confuses me.
18 What do you mean by "the original remained in Sarajevo;
19 however..." The original of what? Of this document?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The original of this document, I
21 suppose, since I see a handwritten note, "Sent on the 25th of June" at a
22 certain time. It is a standard notation if a document is being sent by
23 packet communication.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that mean that this is the original or that
25 this is the copy that is retained by the author; whereas, the original
1 that encloses these documents has gone to the recipient?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This original remained with the
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the sender never sends the original; the sender
5 sends the copy, is that your testimony, and keeps the original?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that communication
7 means cannot forward a signature. They can only send or receive text.
8 The contents of this were received at a certain address; however, the
9 original remains with the sender, in this case the Military Security
10 Administration in Sarajevo.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Mr. Menon.
13 MR. MENON: I would just note for the record that the last three
14 documents that I showed the witness, two of them are dated the 25th of
15 June, and then the first one was dated the 24th of June.
16 If we could now move to page 110 of this exhibit, English and
17 B/C/S, and this document is dated the 26th of June.
18 Q. Mr. Berbic, is this document also being sent to Kakanj, to Colonel
19 Arnautovic, and does it also require that the bulletin be forwarded to
20 General Delic?
21 A. Yes, the addressee is the same.
22 MR. MENON: Thank you, Mr. Berbic.
23 If we could go to page 109 of this document, English and B/C/S.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Menon. Are you going to be going
25 through a whole number of pages that say exactly the same thing as that.
1 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I actually did intend to do that, and I
2 feel it's necessary to do that for clarification, because on
3 cross-examination this witness had indicated that General Delic was seldom
4 in Kakanj. This exhibit contains a number of documents stretching from
5 the end of June until the end of December, and they're all in a similar
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you're going to take us through all of them?
8 MR. MENON: Well, to the point -- in order to make a particular
9 point. I don't need to, actually. I'm prepared to tender this exhibit
10 for that purpose at this point, but I expect that there would be an
11 objection to that, so I'll sit down.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when responding to the
14 Prosecutor's questions, the witness said that General Delic was seldom in
15 Kakanj. If it was his intention to prove that, I believe that the
16 witness, this morning, the witness said that he was in Kakanj seldom.
17 Therefore, I merely followed that up in my cross-examination.
18 But the Prosecutor should have dealt with this during
19 examination-in-chief, in that case. These documents should have been
20 shown to him then.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Perhaps, if I may interrupt, because I had the
22 same question on my mind, how often General Delic was actually in Kakanj.
23 And I noticed the witness's answer very specifically, because the witness
24 said he seldomly saw General Delic in Kakanj. So I was confused, and I
25 was going to put that same question to the witness afterwards, but maybe
1 the Prosecution can clarify if the witness actually knew how frequently
2 General Delic visited Kakanj.
3 MR. MENON: I can do that, Your Honour, and I certainly -- well,
4 first, let me address the point raised by Defence counsel.
5 I don't -- I certainly didn't put the question to the witness this
6 morning as to how frequent General Delic was in -- was in Kakanj, and
7 perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't recall the witness explicitly saying that
8 General Delic was seldom in Kakanj. I didn't raise an objection when the
9 question was posed simply because I thought that I would follow up --
10 follow it up on re-examination in this manner.
11 I believe these documents speak for themselves. These are
12 documents that are consistently being sent to Kakanj, requiring that
13 material be forwarded to General Delic. And as I mentioned, they stretch
14 across a particular period. And so certainly that was my intention, in
15 going through these documents, was to illustrate that point.
16 I can certainly put it to the witness, how frequent General Delic
17 was in Kakanj, but I thought the best way to establish that point was
18 through these documents.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Menon.
20 Yes. I think the witness clearly testified that he seldomly saw
21 General Delic at Kakanj, as I said. This, of course, does not necessarily
22 imply that General Delic was not there. However, the witness also
23 testified that even when General Delic was in Kakanj, he would frequently
24 just stop by and be there for a short period of time and then move on to
25 somewhere else, perhaps touring the front lines or doing something else.
1 So I'm not sure that the mere fact that a number of documents were
2 sent to Kakanj, to be brought to General Delic, necessarily implies that
3 he was there at all times. So let's be careful about what we're asking
4 the witness to provide us with.
5 MR. MENON: I take Your Honour's point, and I can certainly move
6 on, if that's the position of the Chamber.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: No. It is not the position of the Chamber. The
8 Chamber -- my position, at least, is that I wish to elicit from the
9 witness his knowledge about how frequent General Delic actually visited
10 Kakanj, not how often he saw him, but how often, to his knowledge, if he
11 knows, he was actually physically present in Kakanj, and for how long he
12 would stay there normally.
13 MR. MENON:
14 Q. Mr. Berbic, to your knowledge --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. This whole discussion confuses me
16 further. I was dealing with a specific point of being taken through, page
17 by page, a number of documents which say the same thing, and I wanted to
18 try and speed up the proceedings by suggesting, depending on the position
19 of the Defence, that if you have a batch of those documents that say the
20 same thing, and we have seen several of them already, which establish some
21 kind of pattern, can't you just then tender them all as a batch into
23 MR. MENON: I can certainly do that, Your Honour, and as I
24 mentioned, I'd be prepared to do that right now, but I wasn't sure how
25 many documents I would need to go through before I would be able to do
1 that, frankly.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I notice my colleague on my left shakes her
3 head. Maybe there is some mistake I'm making somewhere.
4 Judge Lattanzi, would you like to say something?
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 I'm rather confused, even more confused now. I understood that
7 the Prosecutor was showing us all these documents not to establish a
8 pattern that would appear, but simply to show us the dates of these
9 documents and to highlight how frequently, how often General Delic was in
10 Kakanj. Am I mistaken or was this your purpose, Mr. Menon?
11 MR. MENON: That was my purpose. It was simply to show, I
12 suppose, by implication, that if documents marked "Immediate" are
13 consistently being sent to a particular location for a particular person,
14 it might imply that that person is in that location.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But isn't that establishing a pattern also?
16 MR. MENON: Pardon me?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't that also establishing the pattern?
18 MR. MENON: It's the same thing. I think it's the same thing.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look, I'll withdraw what I was saying. Just go
20 ahead and conduct your case.
21 MR. MENON: I would ask now that this batch of documents, Exhibit
22 P0359, be tendered into evidence, Your Honour.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: This P0359 has already been admitted into evidence
25 as Exhibit 368, but it is just the one page. I don't know whether you now
1 want to tender the remaining pages as a separate exhibit, with a
2 cross-reference to --
3 MR. MENON: I will --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's hear what --
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we do not object to
6 entering or admitting the pages shown by the Prosecutor today. As for the
7 rest, as for the documents we didn't see, we are against that. We have
8 nothing against admitting the documents that were shown to the witness,
9 but only that.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: As I said to you earlier, Mr. Menon, I withdraw
11 what I raised. Go ahead and prosecute your case. If you have to show us
12 those page by page, go ahead.
13 MR. MENON: Okay. Actually, I lost track of the page. I believe
14 I was --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were on 109.
16 MR. MENON: I was on 109. Okay. Brilliant.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need to
18 show all of the documents. If this will save court time, then we can
19 admit it as such. I will withdraw my objection.
20 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would express my appreciation to the
21 Defence for that, and I would ask that this now be tendered in evidence.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to express my exasperation. You know,
23 just go ahead. Go ahead, Mr. Menon.
24 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask now that this document be
25 tendered into evidence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
2 please be given an exhibit number.
3 MR. MENON: And now I'll pose the questions that Judge Harhoff --
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 377.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MR. MENON: -- that I would ask that I pose to the witness.
7 Q. Mr. Berbic, and I'm not speaking about how often you saw General
8 Delic in Kakanj, but based upon -- based upon your knowledge, outside of
9 how often you actually saw him, how frequently was he in Kakanj, based
10 upon what you knew?
11 A. I should just like to draw attention to the fact that, for
12 instance, at the period from which these documents hail, I was a
13 lower-ranking member of the Military Security Service, and my ambit of
14 work did not require of me to have any direct contacts with Commander
16 So let me repeat, according to what I knew, General Delic came to
17 Kakanj only very seldom; and when he did come, he stayed there only for
18 short periods of time.
19 I had occasion to hear several times that he was there, or I would
20 be told to submit something and I would go there and he would not be
22 May I add something else, by your leave?
23 I mentioned earlier that I saw him at two important meetings - of
24 that, I'm certain - and perhaps another couple of times in passing.
25 MR. MENON: Thank you for that interjection, Mr. Berbic.
1 The Prosecution has no further questions, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Menon.
3 Judge Lattanzi.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 I have a question about telephone communications. You told us
7 that at one point in time telephone communications through land lines were
8 cut off, and you were provided with a satellite communication system. Do
9 you remember that?
10 A. Yes, I do remember that, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] These communications were
12 intercepted. There was also a lot of interference on the line. So it was
13 very difficult to communicate, using this channel.
14 So I would like to know the following: After the -- once the
15 tunnel, the Sarajevo tunnel, was built, was the regular -- were the
16 regular land lines back to work -- back at work?
17 A. Your Honours, I don't remember. I cannot associate the existence
18 of the tunnel with the existence of communication links. But what I can
19 say is, as far as I remember in 1995, I believe that there were regular
20 telephone lines in existence. However, they were only used as a means
21 whereby to send cryptographic reports; namely, in open conversations, the
22 telephone was not considered a safe way of communication, and whoever
23 wished to protect their information did not resort much to that particular
24 way of transmitting information.
25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One more thing about these
1 reports. You told us that you received reports from units who were on the
2 field, engaged in combat, and that you would prepare summary reports, a
3 compilation of all these reports, and it was only the summary report that
4 was sent to the General Staff.
5 But during the cross-examination, it seemed that we found out that
6 these summaries were extremely brief and short, and you told us that you
7 only included what you deemed necessary to be included in those summary
8 reports; therefore, that you did not deal with all the matters in the
9 summary report.
10 So in the summary, we can't -- there were not elements of
11 everything that had been sent by the corps. You only put the most
12 essential elements in these summary reports; right?
13 A. Your Honours, I apologise. I'm not quite clear what it is that
14 you want to elicit from me. I'm not quite clear about what the final
15 question is.
16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'll ask this question again.
17 I'll reformulate my question.
18 You told us that you were in charge of making summaries of these
19 reports, and I wanted to know whether in those summary reports, you had
20 had -- all the issues were covered, even in a very brief fashion, or
21 whether you were allowed or you had the competence to decide not to cover
22 certain topics that had been dealt with in the reports coming from the
24 A. Your Honours, I will briefly explain the entire procedure.
25 All the reports from all the corps would come to the Operations
1 Centre at the Kakanj command post. There, a team of people comprising
2 members of all the administrations, among whom also I, myself, but not
3 always exclusively I, it could have been one of my colleagues, would come
4 together and everybody would deal with their part of the report.
5 I dealt with the part of the report entitled "Situation of
6 Security in the Units." It was my task, and I had the scope to summarise
7 everything in five or six sentences, everything which concerned security
8 and had come -- all the security information that had come from all the
9 other units, three or four or five pages. It was simpler than to put
10 together -- this was simpler to do than put together all those reports and
11 send them as such to Sarajevo.
12 So we extracted what we needed from those reports on the basis of
13 our experience. It was at the discretion of the specialist assigned to
14 that particular chapter in the report.
15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But the issues of security, for
16 example, that's fine. So, to your knowledge, a topic regarding security,
17 what was it? For example, the fact that units in the field would have
18 behaved irregularly, something that you would have been told about in a
19 report, and that you would have summed up in a summary report; would that
20 be included, for example?
21 A. Your Honours, I do apologise again. I'm not quite sure what it is
22 that you're asking me.
23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, you told us that you were
24 in charge of summing up topics regarding security. Among these questions
25 regarding security, according to you, do you think that regular conduct on
1 the battlefield, would that be included in those topics or not?
2 A. Yes, Your Honours. Yes, quite clear. This is my answer: From
3 this multitude of pieces of information that we received daily and which
4 were more or less similar every day, only if something happened out of the
5 ordinary or, as I put it, drastic things, and if this was written in the
6 corps report, for instance, if it was written that, for example, 50
7 members of some of the units of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina, for their personal reasons, disgruntlement or something like
9 that, left the positions, the line of defence, without leave, that would
10 be a great problem and that would have to have been reported; namely,
11 included in the report that we sent.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, an irregular conduct
13 towards the civilians or prisoners of war was not considered as an
14 important topic that would be included in the summary report?
15 A. Your Honours, I don't know what conduct that would be, but I have
16 given an example which is important. There could have been incidents
17 between civilians and members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina where
18 the military police would intervene. If this exceeded some normal limits,
19 then reports would be sent, but we did not want to burden the addressees
20 with less significant matters.
21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Witness.
24 Let me just ask for some clarification of the issue of General
25 Delic's visits to Kakanj, because you said that, to your knowledge, he was
1 rarely there.
2 A. That is correct, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. Could you say how many times that would be
4 in 1994?
5 A. Your Honours, I am unable to say that in respect of 1994, because
6 it was July, the end of July 1994, when I arrived at the Kakanj command
7 post. And in that particular period, July 1994, or rather, until the end
8 of 1994, I saw him once or twice. I cannot remember exactly now. There
9 were two important meetings. I saw them -- him then. That I know. And I
10 could guess, but I don't want to do that. It was really a long time ago.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is perfectly fine. But, you see, we are
12 sitting back with something we do not quite understand, and I would like
13 you to help us understand, if you can.
14 And what we do not understand is: Why would the Main Staff in
15 Sarajevo send documents to Kakanj to be brought to General Delic if he
16 wasn't there? How would you suggest that we understand these facts? Do
17 you have an explanation? If you don't have, then please say that you
18 can't explain that. But if you know why documents would be sent to
19 Kakanj, even if Delic was somewhere else, then we would be happy to know.
20 A. Your Honours, I would also have to guess why that was so. I was
21 not in circles that were privy.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I would rather just leave it at this,
23 rather than having you speculate on something that you're not sure about.
24 I have one other question for you, sir.
25 If we could ask the Registrar to pull up Exhibit 369. And while
1 we are waiting for that, let me explain a bit about my question, because I
2 think I remember from the organogram that this exhibit includes, in your
3 section, there was also -- there were two sections. There was one for
4 military police affairs, in which you served, and then there was another
5 section dealing with legal affairs.
6 Let's have a look at the organogram, if we can find it. I thought
7 it was Exhibit 369, but I might be wrong. If the parties can help me.
8 It's coming up. Great.
9 Now we have the organogram in front of us, but I am surprised to
10 see that I can't find what I was looking for. I thought that there was,
11 in your section, one department for military police affairs and another
12 department for legal affairs.
13 Maybe Ms. Vidovic can help me. Is it the next organogram?
14 Can we move on to the next page, please? Right, there we are.
15 Yes. If I understand it correctly, sir, you were working in the
16 section for staff and security and military police affairs, and that was
17 in the Department for Staff and Security, Military Police, Personnel and
18 Legal Affairs. And on the organogram, just below your section, there was
19 a section for personnel and legal affairs. Can you see that?
20 Do you see it, Mr. Berbic? Yes. Now it's being highlighted in
21 yellow for you.
22 A. Your Honours, yes, I do see the Department for Staff and Security
23 Affairs and what it consists of, this section for staff and security and
24 the section for personnel and legal affairs.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now, we are obviously interested in issues
1 relating to the prosecution of crimes committed by members of the ABiH.
2 So looking at this organogram, I am curious to know if you can tell us
3 what was dealt with in the section for personnel and legal affairs. And
4 to be more specific, my question is: Was that section dealing with
5 prosecution of alleged crimes committed by members of the ABiH?
6 A. Your Honours, I have to tell you that this particular section was
7 not at the Kakanj command post.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. So it was left in Sarajevo?
9 A. Yes, in Sarajevo.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know what they did in Sarajevo, what that
11 section was doing in Sarajevo? If you don't, that's fine, just tell us
13 A. Maybe I would be able to tell you what a part of their duties -- a
14 part of their work was, but I'm not familiar with the complete content of
15 their work. I, perhaps, of all the staff that worked there, remember a
16 couple of names. This was just a small section with just, for instance,
17 three or four staff [is interpreted].
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can you answer me very specifically on the
19 question of whether, to your knowledge, this section was involved in the
20 investigation and prosecution of crimes allegedly committed by member of
21 the ABiH?
22 A. Your Honours, I don't know that.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. That's fine with me.
24 Thank you very much, sir. I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a correction of the
2 transcript. Page 87, 1 and 2, the witness said that it was a small
3 section with one or two staff, and what it says here is "three or four."
4 So can this correction please be introduced there.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I hope the correction is being made.
6 It is quarter to. I have a few questions. I don't know whether
7 the parties are going to have questions after this. I'm mindful of the
8 fact that there is a desire for the witness to be released to go home. I
9 don't know whether we can finish today. My questions won't take more than
10 five minutes.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we have a hearing in this court at 2.15.
13 [Trial Chamber confers].
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let's see if I can finish my questions.
15 Sir, I'm going to try to be very brief. You have told us about a
16 system of communication in your office in Kakanj and the rules that were
17 being laid out for sending out communication. Did you, at every occasion,
18 comply with the rules?
19 A. I, personally, whenever I have that obligation, complied with it.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking about you; and if you can just say
21 "yes," say "yes."
22 And you carried out every instruction you were given?
23 A. Your Honours, as regards the sending of reports and that work,
24 generally speaking, there existed rules which we sought to abide by. I
25 can tell you that, but I cannot remember in every specific case --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please let me interrupt. I'm not asking you about
2 the rules. I'm asking you if you carried out your instructions as given.
3 Can you remember an occasion when you did not carry out the
5 A. Your Honours, I cannot remember one, really.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to say that, to the best of your
7 knowledge, you carried out your instructions all the time?
8 A. Your Honours, we tried our best to carry out what was ordered us.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Sorry, sir. I'm not asking you
10 about all of you. I'm asking you about you, personally. My questions are
11 centered on you, alone.
12 To the best of your knowledge, did you carry out your
14 A. Your Honours, to the best of my knowledge, I carried out the
15 instructions given me.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if instructions came on a day when you were not
17 present, when you did come to the office, did you carry out those
18 instructions that arrived in your absence?
19 A. Your Honours, when I was not at the office or in the building, my
20 obligations, at the time when I was the head of that segment, which is
21 from October 1995, would be waiting for me in the morning, and I would
22 discharge them then.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Now, I just want to follow on one question that was raised by
25 Judge Lattanzi on the reporting of, as you said it yourself, drastic
2 If, for argument's sake, a crime was committed on the field, would
3 you see that as a drastic measure to be reported in your drafting of the
4 summary? I'm talking about you, personally.
5 A. Your Honours, had I received such information, had such
6 information come in a report, I would have personally sought to
7 incorporate it in the summary report.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: To your knowledge, in the whole office now - I'm
9 now going beyond you - just the whole office, all of you who contributed
10 to this report, would a situation like that be incorporated in the
12 A. Your Honours, if such information was received from a subordinated
13 unit of the corps, it would have had to be conveyed, but that depended on
14 the people -- on the people who were on duty in the specific situation.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would the capture of enemy soldiers be seen as
16 something worth putting in the summary?
17 A. Your Honours, in my opinion, if that involved a larger number, I
18 would have incorporated it in the report.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would a number of 40 be a larger number?
20 A. Your Honours, in my view, that would be such a number.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now, let me follow up on a question
22 that was raised by Judge Harhoff. He asked you about the sending of
23 documents from Sarajevo to Mr. Delic in Kakanj and was wondering why would
24 he send that often if he wasn't there that often.
25 My question to you is: Am I right to say you told us that
1 Mr. Delic was, most of the time, at the DC in Sarajevo? That's where his
2 main office was?
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I wrong? I guess the DC was not in Sarajevo; it
5 was somewhere else. Where was it?
6 A. Your Honours, the DC building was in Kakanj.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Sorry. But General Delic was based in
8 Sarajevo. His main office was in Sarajevo?
9 A. Your Honours, that is correct.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And he would undertake visits to the army, amongst
11 others, to Kakanj, your office, like you say, you don't know how often?
12 A. Your Honours, he would not come to where my office was because my
13 office was on the other side, in another building, but I don't know how
14 frequently he came.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, but the instructions that you
16 used to receive to send these bulletins to Mr. Delic came from
17 Mr. Jasarevic, isn't it?
18 A. Your Honours, for a while, I was not in charge of this segment of
19 the administration at the Kakanj command post, and I did not receive these
20 directly from Mr. Jasarevic but from my immediate superior, Mr. Refik
21 Cesko, who assigned this task --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me stop you. The letters that were being shown
23 here were drafted in the name of Mr. Jasarevic, am I right, which would
24 say "For immediate action," that you must deliver the bulletins
25 immediately? They came from him?
1 A. Your Honours, that's right.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where was he based?
3 A. Your Honours, General Jasarevic was based at the administration of
4 the Military Security Service in Sarajevo.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, explain this to me. Mr. Jasarevic is in
6 Sarajevo. General Delic is in Sarajevo. Why are these bulletins being
7 sent to Kakanj, to be delivered to General Delic, who is in Sarajevo most
8 of the time?
9 A. Your Honours, the bulletins were sent, and I assume this, to
10 Kakanj, if Mr. Jasarevic knew that he was somewhere outside Sarajevo,
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
13 Mr. Menon?
14 MR. MENON: No further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just two questions.
17 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:
18 Q. First of all, Witness, you were asked questions about information
19 which pertained to prisoners of war. Would you agree with me that the
20 reports from the corps dispatched daily information every day about large
21 numbers of POWs?
22 A. This was not a frequent occurrence in the reports that I read.
23 Q. But do you agree that it would be alarming, indeed, if it was
24 written in the report that they were maltreated, not the fact in itself
25 that they were captured? Do you agree with me?
1 A. Yes, I do agree with you. If I can amplify on that question.
2 Q. Please do.
3 A. The fact that they were captured was actually a success, and that,
4 per se, was not alarming.
5 Q. Yes. But the fact that they were maltreated, that would be
7 A. Yes, that would be a special and specific situation.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just another question
9 which stems from your own and Judge Lattanzi's question.
10 Q. Please look at page 94 of Exhibit 377. I'm speaking about
11 documents that were sent to you by Mr. Jasarevic or to Sacir Arnautovic.
12 Take a look at this document. I asked you today to explain
13 cryptographic protection, and the Prosecution showed you a series of
14 documents of this kind which says "Sealed and signed." Am I right?
15 A. You are right.
16 Q. Thank you. Please, tell us, is it not true that none of these
17 documents is actually from Kakanj because it was not transmitted in this
18 cryptographic-protected way, because it is not indicated in any of the
19 document that this is the way in which it was sent, nor do they have a
20 sign or -- a seal or signature? Do you agree that none of these documents
21 came to Kakanj?
22 A. I agree that any of these documents which were addressed to
23 Colonel Sacir with this seal and signature did not come to Kakanj.
24 Q. So any document claimed to have come to Kakanj with a seal and
25 signature could have been an original that could have been filed in
1 Sarajevo; is that right?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. So you don't know that such a document was ever received in Kakanj
4 because that stems from what you explained about cryptographic protection?
5 A. I would have to consult the filing protocol to know whether they I
6 had it right or not. I cannot tell on the basis of this.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 That concludes my questions, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 That brings us to the conclusion of your testimony, sir. Thank
11 you so much for coming to testify. You are excused and you may now stand
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry about that.
15 Court adjourned to Monday morning at 9.00 in this court.
16 Court adjourned.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of
19 September, 2007 at 9.00 a.m.