Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2358

1 Friday, 14 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and Good morning, Your Honours.

9 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Shall we have the appearances the today, starting with the

12 Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

14 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

15 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon, assisted by our case manager,

16 Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 And for the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

20 morning, colleagues from the OTP, everybody in and around the courtroom.

21 Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson representing the Defence of General

22 Delic, with assistants Lana Deljkic and Asja Zujo.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 So Mr. Berbic, at the beginning of your testimony yesterday, you

25 made a declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else

Page 2359

1 but the truth. I remind you that you are still bound by that declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


5 [The witness answered through interpreter]

6 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Examination by Mr. Menon: [Continued]

8 Q. Mr. Berbic, there's one point I want to clarify. During your

9 testimony yesterday, you indicated you became the head of a segment of the

10 Security Administration which is located at the Kakanj command post and

11 that you believe that this had occurred in October of 1995.

12 Can you clarify which segment of the Security Administration in

13 Kakanj you were responsible for?

14 A. It was the segment for staff security affairs. But as I was the

15 head of that segment, I was also responsible for the work of the other

16 staff belonging to other segments.

17 Q. And when you say "other segments," can you refer to the formal

18 title of those segments?

19 A. I said, yesterday, the representative of the first department; we,

20 from the second department, a couple of us people; and one person from the

21 section for military police affairs. That was more or less the segment

22 that I was answerable for in terms of organisational work and

23 discipline --

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. -- over those two or three months.

Page 2360

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic.


3 If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02834.

4 Q. Do you see the document in front of you, Mr. Berbic?


6 And if we could have the whole English document on the screen.

7 Thank you.

8 Q. Do you see the document in front of you, Mr. Berbic?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. What's the date of the document?

11 A. It is the 17th of December, 1995.

12 Q. And to whom is this document addressed?

13 A. This document is addressed to precisely this segment of the

14 Military Security Service at the Kakanj command post, to me personally.

15 Q. And can you -- after the section where it's addressed to you

16 personally, there's an instruction there. Can you carefully read that

17 instruction to yourself?

18 Have you had a chance to read that?

19 A. We are here at Bulletin 237 --

20 Q. Just read it -- have you read it to yourself?

21 A. Are you saying whether I had received this document and had read

22 it then?

23 Q. No, no, now. I just wanted to make sure that you were familiar

24 with the contents of that statement, because I was going to put a question

25 to you. Have you had a chance to look at it right now and to read it and

Page 2361

1 to familiarise yourself with it?

2 A. This content under the word "Bulletin," I did not read, and nor

3 did I familiarise myself with that part of the text, this complete text,

4 other than the word "Bulletin." I just familiarised myself with the

5 instructions given here in the heading.

6 Q. Okay. Now, did you comply with that instruction that was --

7 that's set out in this document when you received it in Kakanj?

8 A. Well, I don't remember, but I probably must have complied with it

9 if I was there, because I didn't have to be there at all times. If I had

10 been there, I would have certainly complied with these instructions and

11 submitted the document to whomever I was to submit it.

12 Q. And can you explain how you would have gone about complying with

13 this instruction?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objections, Your Honour. The

16 witness said, "I don't remember," and he gave a hypothetical response.

17 And the question was, "How did you act to comply with the instructions?"

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon.

19 MR. MENON: Your Honour, to the extent that the witness can recall

20 how he would comply with such instructions when he actually received them,

21 I think that he can give an answer to that question.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm still trying to read the witness's previous

23 answer. I think I'll allow the question. Thank you very much.


25 Q. Mr. Berbic, if you could please indicate how you would comply with

Page 2362

1 the instructions set out in this document.

2 A. I couldn't tell you with precision what the procedure was; and

3 specifically about this case, I can't tell you because I don't remember.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir, you don't remember whether you did or did not

5 comply with this instruction?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember the details in

7 either case.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about the details. I'm just

9 asking you: Did you comply with the instruction that is given up here,

10 before the writing that is under the "Bulletin"? Did you comply with the

11 instructions, or do you remember whether you did or did not comply with

12 the instruction?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember specifically, in

14 regard of this number, whether I complied or did not comply.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be

17 tendered into evidence.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is -- sorry.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 365.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02835.

25 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?

Page 2363

1 A. Yes, I do see it.

2 Q. Thank you. To whom is this document addressed?

3 A. This document is addressed to the Kakanj command post, the

4 Military Security Service, and then to me personally.

5 Q. And there's an instruction there from General Jusuf Jasarevic to

6 you. Did you comply with that instruction?

7 A. I really cannot recall whether I complied with this specific

8 instruction, according to this particular document, because that was 12

9 years ago, but I don't think that there were any reasons for me not to

10 have complied with it and act according to the instruction. But

11 specifically, in regards to this particular document, I cannot remember

12 whether I really did. That day, I might not at all have been there. I

13 might not have been at work.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Berbic, when you -- when you do recall receiving

15 instructions from Mr. Jasarevic, would you, in those cases, generally

16 comply with those instructions?

17 A. Generally speaking, yes, I would comply with instructions,

18 provided, however, that I did not look at the bulletin or at the content

19 of the bulletin, nor did I need to look at them. I would simply place

20 everything in an envelope and take it to the DC or some of my staff would

21 take it to the DC.

22 Q. And in your absence, was there a procedure in place for such

23 documents to be delivered to the DC?

24 A. There was a procedure. I do not see the time of receipt of this

25 document. Perhaps if there was one, I could explain better because this

Page 2364

1 particular document arrived via the Communications Centre, and then there

2 was no signature. Perhaps if I could see the very top of the document.

3 Well, we can see here that the document arrived after 1800 hours.

4 In such cases, the person on duty in the segment of the administration of

5 the Military Security Service at the Kakanj command post would receive

6 this or such a document from the Communications Centre.

7 Q. And what was the person on duty supposed to do with the document

8 when they received it?

9 A. The person on duty would wait for the following day, when I'd

10 arrive, and would hand over that document to me.

11 Q. And then what would you do with that document?

12 A. I would look at the instructions in the document. I would put it

13 in an envelope and submit it to the most responsible person at that point

14 in time at the DC.

15 MR. MENON: Thank you, Mr. Berbic.

16 Your Honour, I would ask if this document could be tendered into

17 evidence.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 366.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P02839.

23 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To whom is this document addressed?

Page 2365

1 A. This document is addressed to the command post at Kakanj, the

2 Military Security Service, to me personally.

3 Q. And from whom are you receiving this document? Who's the -- from

4 whom is this document coming from?

5 A. This document came from the administration -- from the

6 administration of the Military Security Service, from Sarajevo.

7 Q. Who signed the document?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can the witness see the bottom.

9 MR. MENON: It's actually in the middle section. It's in the

10 middle part of the document.

11 Q. Who --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you saying the document is signed in the

13 middle, Mr. Menon?

14 MR. MENON: Well, the sender of the document, the person who --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But you're asking the witness who signed it.

16 He must see the signature.

17 MR. MENON: Well, actually, Your Honour, it's a typewritten

18 signature.

19 Q. Mr. Berbic, this is a document that's addressed to you. Which

20 person is addressing this document to you?

21 A. I don't know exactly which person. The initials indicating who

22 wrote the document, who authored it, actually do not match the name of the

23 person who signed it.

24 Q. And who signed the document, then?

25 A. We have a specific situation here. I see no signature, which in

Page 2366

1 fact is quite normal because the document was received by radio packet

2 communications, so that I cannot know who signed it. Actually, I can just

3 read what it says here by way of signature.

4 Q. In this document, are you being instructed to do something?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I am.

6 Q. Who's giving you -- who is giving you that instruction?

7 A. The signature says "Head, Brigadier General Jusuf Jasarevic."

8 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.

9 Your Honour, I would ask that this document be tendered into

10 evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

12 please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 367.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. MENON: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit P03059, and

16 it's actually page 39 of that exhibit. It's a fairly lengthy exhibit.

17 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 MR. MENON: It's actually 39 of the English as well, if we could

20 go to 39 of the English and the B/C/S. I only see both English versions

21 on my screen.

22 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And what's the date of the document?

25 A. The date is the 27th of September, 1995.

Page 2367

1 Q. And who is this document addressed to?

2 A. It is addressed to the command post in Kakanj, the Military

3 Security Service, to me personally.

4 Q. And if you could look at the first paragraph, there's

5 instructions.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you comply with those instructions?

8 A. I really cannot recall, because this is a critical date, in fact.

9 I'm not quite sure whether I was on duty on that day. It is quite early

10 on. Apart from that, given the signature that we can see on this

11 document, I fail to see how I could have received this document at all, I

12 mean, in what way.

13 Q. If you could look at the handwritten notation on the left side of

14 the document, can you just look at that? It's at the bottom of the

15 document, on the bottom left-hand side of the document, Mr. Berbic.

16 A. Yes, I do see it.

17 Q. Would the sender or the receiver of that document, of the document

18 in front of you, have made that notation?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who would have made the notation, the sender or the

20 receiver?

21 MR. MENON: I'm putting the question to the witness so he can

22 testify to it.

23 A. I don't know who affixed this notation there. But if you're

24 asking me who generally could have done it, and as far as I can make out,

25 what is written here is: "Went on the 28th of September, 1995," or "went

Page 2368

1 out." That probably refers to the document having gone out at that time.


3 Q. Mr. Berbic, would the sender or the receiver of this document have

4 made that notation? I'm not looking for a specific person, just for you

5 to identify whether it would be the sender or the receiver that would have

6 made this notation.

7 A. I'm not sure of that.

8 Q. Okay. I'll move on. If you could look at the second paragraph in

9 this document. Did you comply with that instruction?

10 A. In the specific case, I do not remember.

11 Q. I'm talking about -- it's worded in a very general way,

12 Mr. Berbic, and so I'm speaking generally. When you had this

13 responsibility, when you were receiving these bulletins personally from

14 Mr. Jasarevic, would you comply with the instruction that's set out in the

15 second paragraph?

16 A. I would, of course, seek to comply with the instructions.

17 Q. And how would you comply with those instructions?

18 A. This is an instruction that arrived to the effect that on

19 familiarisation with this document, the document was to be returned to the

20 segment of the Military Security Service at the Kakanj command post and to

21 be kept in custody, in a safe place, meaning safe or some other safe place

22 where all the other documents were being kept.

23 Q. Can you elaborate upon what that safe place was, since it was you

24 that was charged with this responsibility?

25 A. That place would be an iron cabinet, for instance, the key to

Page 2369

1 which was held by the two of us who worked on staff security affairs. The

2 steel cabinet was in our room, and no one else was actually supposed to

3 handle it.

4 Q. And so who was the other person that you're referring to, because

5 you said "the two of us"?

6 A. At the time when I was the man in charge, which is to say in the

7 period from October to the end of December, or perhaps January of the

8 following year, the staff occupying that position changed.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Menon, how much longer are you going to be?

10 MR. MENON: I'm just about ready to finish up, Your Honour.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic.

12 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask if this document -- just this

13 page of this exhibit, if it could be tendered into evidence.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we do so, Mr. Menon, could you just explain

15 to us what we are trying to establish with these documents?

16 MR. MENON: With this document, specifically, or with the other

17 documents?

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think they have almost the same line of

19 evidentiary importance, because they're all dealing with the task of the

20 witness to bring something to the attention of somebody else, and I'm

21 curious to know, the sender, as I recall in all cases, were General

22 Jasarevic, and I suppose -- or maybe we would ask the witness where was

23 General Jasarevic located, situated, when these messages were sent.

24 Secondly, to whom is the witness asked to bring these documents?

25 And so as to better understand the importance and significance of these

Page 2370

1 two or three documents that you've shown to the witness.

2 MR. MENON: I'll put those questions to the witness, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Berbic, you heard the questions posed by Judge Harhoff. Where

4 was Mr. Jasarevic based when these documents were being sent?

5 A. I cannot state where he personally was; however, his seat, his

6 office was supposed to be in Sarajevo. Of course, occasionally, he moved

7 about the free territory.

8 Q. And to -- and to whom were you supposed to bring these documents?

9 A. I would take these documents to the DC. I didn't have to wait for

10 anyone in particular. I would simply deliver them to the most responsible

11 person there at the moment.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: The instruction, if I may, the instruction is that

13 the document should be brought to the army General Staff commander. Is

14 that the same person as the DC?


16 Q. Mr. Berbic, you've heard the question from the Judge. Is there a

17 distinction between the DC, which, yesterday, you referred to that as the

18 Distribution Centre, and the army Staff commander? Is there a distinction

19 between those two?

20 A. I mentioned the DC yesterday, and I have the same thing in mind

21 today. There were those offices there that I mentioned yesterday.

22 Q. And whose offices are you referring to?

23 A. I mentioned the offices of General Delic and General

24 Hadzihasanovic, as well as the offices of some officers from the

25 Operations Administration. There was some other offices, such as the

Page 2371

1 protocol and so on and so forth.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me for pursuing this, but the interest, of

3 course, is whether General Delic ever received these documents. I mean,

4 if you were asked to - I'm asking the witness now directly, if I may - if

5 you were asked to bring these documents to General Delic, then you say

6 that what you did was rather to give it to the Distribution Centre, and

7 then let someone from that centre bring it to General Delic. Is that how

8 it worked?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, in other words, you did normally not bring the

11 document directly into the hands of General Delic, did you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he was there at the moment, I was

13 supposed to deliver it to him. If he was absent, I would give it to

14 General Hadzihasanovic, who was the Chief of Staff. If he was absent as

15 well, I would deliver that to the highest-ranking officer of the

16 Operations Administration. There is a document in existence which

17 regulates the procedure.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. And, so, if General Delic or General

19 Hadzihasanovic were not immediately present at the moment you came up,

20 then you would give it to somebody else, instructing that person then to

21 bring it to the addressee?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is right.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you then subsequently verify if actually

24 Delic -- General Delic or General Hadzihasanovic ever received the

25 documents?

Page 2372

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was duty-bound to check, but only

2 to the extent whether they were familiarised with the document. Someone

3 from the service would give me a call. They would tell me that has been

4 done and that I can come and pick up the document. I suppose that General

5 Hadzihasanovic, on occasion, would familiar himself with the documents,

6 thus completing the task.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. So we can assume that the documents that

8 were intended to be brought to the knowledge of General Delic or General

9 Hadzihasanovic were actually brought to their knowledge?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot say that for

11 certain. If General Delic was absent, he may have been told about a

12 certain document through General Hadzihasanovic. It was up to them as to

13 how they organised that. General Delic was there very seldom and would

14 stay for only a short while. This is what I know from taking the

15 documents there.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused

18 now.

19 Yesterday, Witness, I understood that you stated that "DC" meant

20 the place where several offices were located, among others, the office of

21 the General Command, and that it was not only the Distribution Centre that

22 was located there. And did I understand that "DC" meant all that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can explain, Your Honour.

24 The Distribution Centre was the name of the company that was there until

25 the war. It was the name of the facility. In the facility, there was no

Page 2373

1 distribution centre, nothing of that sort. However, on the first floor,

2 there were still some offices of the distribution centre, which

3 subsequently were used for the needs of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 In those offices, General Delic, General Hadzihasanovic, some

5 Operations Administration officers, as well as the protocol people were.

6 There were some seven or eight offices in total.

7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

9 MR. MENON: Actually, I was still --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. MENON: I was just going to finish up with the witness, Your

12 Honour. It will be another four minutes, at the most.

13 I would first ask if this exhibit, I think it's still on the

14 screen, if it could be tendered into evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that --

16 MR. MENON: Just this page, actually.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought it was given Exhibit number 368.

18 MR. MENON: Not yet.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. May the document please be given an exhibit

20 number, as it has been admitted into evidence.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 368.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.


24 Q. Mr. Berbic, for how long were you based at the command post in

25 Kakanj?

Page 2374

1 A. I was based at the Kakanj command post as of the moment I was sent

2 to serve with the Military Security Administration, or rather, it's

3 segment at the Kakanj command post.

4 Q. And when did you leave the command post?

5 A. I left the command post, together with the entire service, I

6 believe in February, although I'm not quite certain. In February 1996, we

7 went to Sarajevo. Once the Dayton Accords were signed, we started packing

8 up. There was no reason for us to stay there, since communication was now

9 free. It was open.

10 Q. And when did you leave the administration of the Military Security

11 Service?

12 A. Upon my arrival in Sarajevo, in the Ministry of Defence of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina - I believe that is the correct name - I asked in

14 writing to be sent to another administration. I left in February or March

15 1996; in any case, at the beginning of 1996.

16 MR. MENON: Thank you, Mr. Berbic.

17 The Prosecution has no further questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Menon.

19 Just before I hand you over to Madam Vidovic, you were asked how

20 long you were based at the command post in Kakanj, and you said you were

21 based at the Kakanj command post as of the moment you were sent to serve

22 in the Military Security Administration.

23 Can you give us a date as to when you were sent to serve at the

24 Military Security Administration, because you don't seem to have answered

25 that question completely; at least, I don't understand you.

Page 2375

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to be as

2 precise as I can.

3 I believe I joined the service in July 1994, and I stayed with it

4 until February or March 1996. It all had to do with the Dayton Accords;

5 and after that, I left the service.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Berbic. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I will

11 cross-examine you today on behalf of General Delic.

12 Given the nature of cross-examination, you will be able to answer

13 simply "yes" or "no" to many of my questions. If there is any need for

14 clarification, I will ask you to provide it, or you may be asked questions

15 by the Judges. I will do my utmost to complete your evidence today, and,

16 therefore, I would kindly ask you to be as brief as possible when giving

17 answers.

18 We speak the same language; therefore, please allow a short pause

19 between my question and the beginning of your answer, so as to allow the

20 transcript and the interpreters to catch up.

21 Did you understand me?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Mr. Berbic, you completed the Air Force Technical Academy; is that

24 correct?

25 A. I completed the Air Force Technical High School, which is lower

Page 2376

1 than the Air Force Academy.

2 Q. Thank you. In the former JNA, you worked with communications.

3 Communications is your specialty; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I believe you remember that you provided a statement to the

6 investigators. Do you recall that? To the investigators of the OTP, on

7 the 16th of September, 2005; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I wanted to remind you of that statement and to ask you about a

10 part of it which I deem of importance for this case.

11 During 1992, you worked on the establishment of communication

12 links in Visoko; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it correct that the former JNA, during its withdrawal from

15 certain parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, where non-Serbs lived, took away or

16 destroyed most of the equipment that it had?

17 A. Since I could access quality information, given the function I

18 had, I can tell you that that is correct.

19 Q. They destroyed the relay hubs which were supposed to relay

20 information, and I just wanted to mention a few. The one at Vlasic; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Donje Mostre?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At Zlatiste?

Page 2377

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At Vraca near Sarajevo.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And some others. I believe you will recall that.

5 A. Yes, I do. And also Hum, just above Sarajevo, the relay hub

6 there.

7 Q. Thank you. You said that during 1993, in your evidence, in your

8 testimony here, that there was radio communication in place. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it correct that there was a lot of improvising when trying to

12 secure communication links?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. You communicated with Sarajevo by telephone, for example, while

15 you were still at Visoko?

16 A. We had a telephone line to Sarajevo from Visoko until August, I

17 believe, August 1992.

18 Q. After that, that link was disrupted. All telephone communication

19 around Sarajevo ceased?

20 A. Yes. The central cable that connected Zenica and Sarajevo was cut

21 off, severed.

22 Q. Later on, at a certain point in time, certain bodies of the

23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina received satellite telephones?

24 A. Yes. I saw a device like that. We had one of those at Visoko.

25 Q. Do you agree that it was a very open, unprotected way of

Page 2378

1 communicating?

2 A. Within the communications system, that link is the most

3 vulnerable, and it is the last resort to be used in dire need.

4 Q. Therefore, it was not very favourable to convey military

5 information and sensitive information; am I correct?

6 A. You are.

7 Q. Mr. Berbic, to conclude with this topic, I wanted to ask you this.

8 Perhaps you can tell me if I'm right. It would be fair to say, wouldn't

9 it, that communication links with Sarajevo, generally speaking, throughout

10 1992/1993 were very difficult, difficult to use?

11 A. Precisely so.

12 Q. As regards the entire war, including those situations when packet

13 communication was used that you mentioned today, since you mentioned

14 encryption, would you agree with me that there was often a disruption, a

15 breakup, of such communication links?

16 A. Such communication was often interrupted since a signal could be

17 scrambled or interfered with. It also depended on the number of repeaters

18 that the Army of the Republic of B and H managed to put up, which was in

19 very few places given the situation in the theatre; therefore, that type

20 of communication was also very vulnerable.

21 The very principle and use of packet communication is actually

22 that was taken over from the Ham radio operators in the US. It's a

23 civilian way of communicating.

24 Q. As regards that, I wanted to ask you this: When there is a

25 document that was signed, an original document, which says "Sent," is it

Page 2379

1 correct that we can never be sure that the document that was sent actually

2 arrived anywhere?

3 A. When talking about the end of 19 -- well, the person who would

4 send such a document from the Communications Centre in Sarajevo would have

5 to have some sort of confirmation that the document was indeed received.

6 Those were the rules within the communications branch.

7 Q. Did I understand correctly that that person would have to make a

8 note that he was actually advised that someone received the document on

9 the other end?

10 A. The person receiving has a protocol, a procedure of his own. He

11 would have to note down when and what document he received. The sender on

12 the other side also needs to know what is it that he sent and whether it

13 was received. I'm only talking about communication between communication

14 centres.

15 Q. That's what I had in mind, too. We can ascertain that a document

16 was sent, provided it was registered with the receiver; am I correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if it was noted down in the protocol forms; am I correct?

19 A. You are.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berbic. I want to move on to another topic.

21 Yesterday, in your testimony, you said that, in 1994, you began

22 working at the command post of the Staff of the Supreme Command at Kakanj;

23 is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like the witness

Page 2380

1 to see Exhibit 280. It is an order for the Supreme Command Staff to be

2 relocated, dated the 2nd of January, 1994.

3 Q. Witness, please take a look at page 1, and now look at this date

4 here. Do you agree that you know that this command post functioned from

5 the beginning of 1994?

6 A. It says here: "Order for the Staff of the Supreme Command to go

7 out to the command post, the 2nd of January, 1994."

8 Q. Fine.

9 A. So this is an order for going out, relocating.

10 Q. All right. Let me just ask you this: When you started working at

11 that command post, when you arrived at it, you found there the Brigadier

12 Asim Djambasovic there as the head of the Operations Centre of the army,

13 did you not?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. And you also found the Staff of the Army there?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Will the witness please also take a

18 look at page 2 of this document.

19 Q. Look at the document, please, and do you agree that the

20 administrations which are listed here, as well as their segments, were

21 also functioning at Kakanj?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document can be

25 put away, and now I should like Exhibit number 281 to be shown to the

Page 2381

1 witness, please.

2 For the record, this is a document which is entitled "Organisation

3 of the Deployment of the Staff of the Supreme Command." It is an order of

4 the 16th of February, 1994.

5 Q. Witness, will you be so kind as to look at item 1 under the word

6 "Order." It is not very clear, I'm afraid, but please do your best.

7 Yes, I think now you can see that part.

8 Witness, would you please look at item 1. It is true, is it not,

9 that the Staff of the Army worked in Kakanj according to establishment,

10 when you started working there?

11 A. It is true.

12 Q. Also, the Operations Centre for planning, preparation,

13 organisation, monitoring, and control of combat operations, according to

14 establishment, was also working there at the time; am I right?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Will the witness now

17 look at page 2 of this document.

18 Q. Witness, please look at 9, line 9. It refers to the "Department

19 of the Military Security Service of the Security Administration of the

20 Ministry of Defence." Do you see that?

21 A. Would you please repeat?

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me. Just before we repeat, Madam Vidovic,

23 the interpretation referred us to line 9. I don't know what you may have

24 said. We're not able -- I'm not able to follow, in the English, what to

25 look at. Is it line 9 or paragraph 9? I see the answer at paragraph 7 on

Page 2382

1 this document.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in English, it is the

3 fourth bullet which starts with: "Department of Military Security

4 Service," and in the Bosnian --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. In the Bosnian version, Witness, do you see, I believe it's in the

8 ninth line, it says: "Department of Military Security Service of the

9 Security Administration of the Ministry of Defence." Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, I do see that.

11 Q. Now please take a look at this same part. Do you agree that parts

12 of the Administration for Personnel, Mobilisation, Legal, parts of the

13 Administration for Moral Guidance, Logistics, and so on and so forth also

14 worked there?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. Please look at item 3 now. It refers to control at the command

17 post, at the Kakanj command post. Would you please be so kind as to read

18 item 3 to yourself, not aloud, and then I will ask you a question in

19 connection with it.

20 In connection with it, I should like to ask you this: It is true,

21 isn't it, that the work of the administration organs and of parts of the

22 Staff of the Supreme Command which were located in Kakanj unfolded in

23 accordance with the Staff plan under the direct control of the Chief of

24 Staff Hadzihasanovic; am I right?

25 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

Page 2383

1 Q. Very well. So you saw this order, and I should like to ask you,

2 in that connection, this: You arrived in the course of 1994 and stayed

3 there up until a period after the Dayton Accords. Is it true that, in

4 fact, the Staff of the Supreme Command, i.e., its segment in Kakanj,

5 functioned in the way envisaged in this item 3 that you have just read?

6 Did it evolve in practice in keeping with this order?

7 A. Yes. It did evolve in practice in keeping with it.

8 Q. Very well. As regards this question of control and command in

9 Kakanj, I will be reverting to it later on; but at this point, I should

10 like to ask you something about the service -- the Military Security

11 Service, in view of what you saw in this bullet number 4 -- or rather, in

12 the Bosnian line number 9 "Department of Military Security Service of the

13 Security Administration."

14 Mr. Berbic, I concluded from your testimony that during 1994 and

15 1995, namely, while you worked at Kakanj, you were a member of that

16 particular service. Is my conclusion correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. It is true, is it not, that the Military Security Service, in the

19 course of 1994, was actually comprised within the framework of the

20 Ministry of Defence; am I correct? It was an integral part of the

21 Ministry of Defence?

22 I'm asking you. I'm not talking about your particular segment.

23 I'm talking about the Military Security Service as a whole. The Military

24 Security Service as a whole, did it function as part of the Ministry of

25 Defence?

Page 2384

1 A. As far as I can recall, it functioned within the framework of the

2 Ministry of Defence, but I believe that later the Military Security

3 Service came to be comprised within the Main Staff of the Army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 Q. When you say "later," is this 1994 or some period in 1995?

6 A. I believe that it was already the period when I arrived or perhaps

7 a bit later. I cannot recall exact exactly.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. In this connection, I

9 should like the witness to consult 375 -- 385 --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: D375.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D375.

12 For the transcript, this is an excerpt from temporary

13 establishment structure, number...

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not catch the number.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] ... of the Ministry of Defence of

16 the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, with Staff attached units.

17 The number was T412.303, from March 1994.

18 Q. Yes. Could you please take a look at page 2 of this document?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 2 of

20 this document?

21 Q. Just before we move on to commenting on this document, please, for

22 the needs of the Trial Chamber and all of us here, because we are not

23 soldiers by profession, if I can put it that way, please be so kind as to

24 clarify the following: Am I right if I take it that a temporary

25 establishment structure is a document which actually prescribes the

Page 2385

1 composition of a certain formation in war; am I right?

2 A. Yes, you are right.

3 Q. In other words, parts of units are designated or parts or

4 formations which are comprised within that unit; am I right?

5 A. Yes, you are.

6 Q. Temporary formations apply until the time of the adoption of

7 other, i.e., the prescription of new formations or establishment

8 structures; am I right?

9 A. You are, that's correct.

10 Q. We are still on page 2 of this document. Do you see that this

11 temporary formation document was signed by the Minister of Defence,

12 Hamdija Hasanovic, on the 25th of March, 1994; am I right?

13 A. Yes. This is the date the document bears.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Your Honours, if the witness can now move on to page 3.

16 Q. Witness, please, can you now take a look -- a closer look at this

17 chart, and specifically look at the chart of the Ministry of Defence with

18 headquarters, support units.

19 Do you agree that we have the Presidency at the top, then the

20 Government of the Federation, then the Ministry of Defence?

21 And this connection, what does this mean where it says "General

22 Staff" and "Commander," and this arrow pointing at it? Can you clarify

23 for us?

24 Thank you very much. I apologise. If you can be of assistance,

25 Witness.

Page 2386

1 A. This line on the right means that they were in communication, that

2 they were in contact. I don't know what concretely you mean.

3 Q. I mean --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you talk of the line that points to "General

5 Staff," I'm not with you, Madam Vidovic, and I understand that things are

6 very faded here. I can't see very well. I may perhaps just not be seeing

7 the words "General Staff" because I can't read it.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I see. Your Honours, I apologise.

9 Perhaps I wasn't quite clear.

10 Here you have a square on the right-hand side, where it is written

11 "Commander"; and above it, in the English text, you have the words "GS,"

12 and in brackets, "Main Staff," "Main Staff."

13 In fact, Your Honours, I never could tell my right hand from my

14 left-hand side. I hope you understood me properly. Perhaps that is where

15 I was confused.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my problem, Madam Vidovic. I was just about

17 to ask you, "to the right of the diagram or to my right?" Which right?

18 To my left?

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: You're right.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. So it is to the right. I hope

21 that you can see it now. It is this part where it says the "Main Staff,"

22 just above the word "Commander."

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I now know when you say

24 "right," I must go left.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. Well, it appears to

Page 2387

1 be so.

2 Q. Witness, please --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it being almost time

4 for our break, perhaps we could go back to this document after the break.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take a break and come

6 back at quarter to 11.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, before the break we discussed the organisational chart of

12 the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of B and H, with the headquarters,

13 support units. There's the Ministry of Defence in the middle, then the

14 minister. I am interested in the boxes below.

15 Somewhere in the middle, do you see a box that reads "Security

16 Administration"?

17 A. Yes, I can see that.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see it in the English, please. Yes. Thank

19 you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I wanted to ask you this: When this temporary establishment was

22 in place during 1994, the Security Administration was subordinated to the

23 Ministry of Defence; am I correct?

24 A. You are.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can show

Page 2388

1 the next page of the document to the witness, please. Very well.

2 I believe the witness's assistance will be needed, since we will

3 regularly encounter certain terms pertaining to the Security

4 Administration throughout the case.

5 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned the first, second, and third department.

6 Do you agree with me that this is the organisational chart of the Security

7 Administration? Yesterday, you mentioned a Department for

8 Counterintelligence Affairs. You also mentioned the Department for

9 Information analysis; is that correct? Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes. This is the chart that I discussed.

11 Q. The last department, if I'm correct, is to the right-hand side.

12 It is the Department for Staff and Security, Military Police Personnel,

13 and Legal Affairs. Is that the part you testified about yesterday, when

14 you said that you were a member of that department, that you personally

15 worked for that department; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, I worked in that department.

17 Q. I wanted to ask you what is the most relevant portion concerning

18 this chart for me. A section of this department went to the Kakanj

19 command post following the minister's decision; is that correct?

20 A. As far as I know, that section went to the Kakanj command post,

21 and it was operational there.

22 Q. To be more specific, that is the section for staff and security

23 and military police affairs; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it correct that that section that was in Kakanj had close ties

Page 2389

1 with the Chief of Staff?

2 A. Yes, it is correct. Its name describes and explains its link to

3 the Chief of Staff.

4 Q. In Kakanj?

5 A. Yes, at the Kakanj command post.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your Honours,

7 I wish to tender this document.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 369.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, I believe I am correct if I say that the organisation of

14 life and work at the Kakanj command post was done in a way that -- in the

15 way that it complied with the rules of service of the Army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 A. It was in accordance with the rules of service of the Army of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we could show

21 D377 to the witness. For the record, this is a document drafted at the

22 General Staff at Kakanj, dated the 29th of March, 1995, on the

23 organisation of life and work at the General Staff KM. It is an order.

24 Q. Witness, first and foremost, I would like to ask you whether you

25 want to have a hard copy that I have here, since I am not sure you can

Page 2390

1 read what's on the screen. I believe we will be able to read the relevant

2 portion; however, if you encounter any difficulties, I do have a hard copy

3 that I can offer.

4 Please have a look at the document. Do you agree that in the

5 title, it says "Organisation of Life and Work at the Command Post of the

6 General Staff of the Army of B and H," and that it is an order?

7 A. Yes. It says that this organisation has to do with

8 organisation --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That this order ...

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]... has to do with the organisation

11 of life and work at the command post of the General Staff at the ARBH.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Can you see that the introductory portion of the order invokes the

14 rules of service in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes. In the portion at the beginning, it says: "Pursuant to the

16 rules of service in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and in order to

17 regulate the life and work at the KM GS ARBH.

18 Q. Very well. Witness, have a look at item 2, please. It says

19 "Command and Control."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I will slowly read it. It says: "At a time when the commander is

22 absent from the KM, the Chief of Staff ..."

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just an explanation

24 for your sake and the sake of the rest in the courtroom.

25 Q. Witness, please, first, tell us whether it is correct that the

Page 2391

1 acronym "RIK" means "command and control" or "to command and control"; do

2 you agree?

3 A. Yes, that's what the acronym means.

4 Q. And you've encountered it numerous times?

5 A. I have.

6 Q. "At a time when the commander is absent from the KM, the Chief of

7 Staff of the ARBH exercises command and control; and at a time when both

8 of them are absent, command and control shall be taken over by the officer

9 holding the highest position or rank, or an officer assigned by a special

10 order of the commander or the Chief of Staff.

11 "The Chief of Staff shall exercise command and control by using

12 military police through the administration organ at the command post.

13 Post. The command and control headquarters administration should be

14 exercised by the Operations Administration."

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at the

16 last page, page 4 of the document, so that the witness could see the

17 signature there, and then I will resume my questions regarding the

18 document.

19 Q. Can you see the signature, Witness? Can you recognise it?

20 A. Yes, I can.

21 Q. This is the signature of General Delic, is it not?

22 A. I recognise it as General Delic's signature.

23 Q. Witness, for a certain period, including 1995, you worked in

24 Kakanj, and you know how things functioned there. Is it correct that the

25 command and control at the command post at Kakanj functioned exactly the

Page 2392

1 way as regulated by this order?

2 A. Precisely so. Yes, it functioned in that way.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to tender

5 this document.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

7 please be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 370.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Yesterday, you provided answers to the Prosecutor's questions, and

12 you also replied to certain questions posed by Judge Harhoff today that

13 had to do with General Delic and his stay in Kakanj. Do you recall that?

14 A. Yes, I remember yesterday's questions.

15 Q. Mr. Berbic, did I understand correctly that you basically today

16 said that General Delic was seldom in Kakanj? Did I understand that

17 correctly?

18 A. What I knew at the time and what I could see, based on that

19 knowledge, he was in Kakanj seldom.

20 Q. I would like to remind you of the statement you gave to the OTP

21 investigators. In it, and I would like to quote paragraph 83 of the

22 statement dated the 16th of September, 2005, whereby you explained that he

23 came when he would have to travel abroad or had some work to do in the

24 area; is that correct? Did you say that?

25 A. Yes, I did. As to whether he indeed went abroad, I cannot recall,

Page 2393

1 but I think there were certain situations like that. He also toured other

2 corps and units at the defence lines of the Army of the Republic of BH.

3 So when he could go there or return from there, occasionally I

4 would see him either at the Operations Centre for a short time or I would

5 learn of his arrival at the KM.

6 Q. How often, how frequent was it? Can you tell us how often or how

7 seldom you saw him there?

8 A. I'd say I saw him seldom, infrequently.

9 Q. Thank you. You said that he had his office in the DC facility. Do

10 you remember that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. His cabinet, and I do not mean physically the office -- or rather,

13 let me ask you this first: When he came there, he used the room you

14 specified as being his office; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'm talking about his cabinet and the personnel that worked with

17 him. The members of his cabinet, they did not work there, did they?

18 A. The members of his cabinet did not work there, except for 1995, on

19 several occasions, his secretary was there, or rather, she stayed at the

20 motel. She had a room there, if that's what you had in mind.

21 Q. First and foremost, I meant his Chef de Cabinet. For instance, in

22 1995, it was Mr. Bulpasic. Did he used to work there or in Sarajevo?

23 A. Mr. Bulpasic did not work there.

24 Q. What about Mr. Zeljko Grubesic?

25 A. Mr. Zeljko Grubesic?

Page 2394

1 Q. Who was his associate.

2 A. I didn't see him there.

3 Q. Mr. Murat Softic, the former Chef de Cabinet?

4 A. I didn't see Murat Softic there, either.

5 Q. It's correct, is it not, that his associates would pass by at the

6 Kakanj command post?

7 A. When they would come to the KM Kakanj, there would usually be a

8 driver, an escort, the secretary. I don't know whether there was anyone

9 else.

10 Q. Therefore, the General and his cabinet, and the colonel of the of

11 the Staff of the Supreme Command, in principle stayed elsewhere, not in

12 Kakanj; would that be a fair thing to say?

13 A. Yes, it would.

14 Q. As far as you know, tell us this: All activities that had to do

15 with combat actions and operations actually took place at the command post

16 in Kakanj; am I correct?

17 A. Yes, such activities would usually take place at the KM in Kakanj.

18 Q. I will move on to a different topic.

19 Now, yesterday, you testified on the modus of reporting between

20 the corps and the command post at Kakanj. Do you recall that?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Specifically, I'd like to ask some questions of you that had to do

23 with the role of the Kakanj command post in the process of reporting.

24 First of all, I wanted to ask you this: Do you agree that there

25 are rules in place -- that there were rules in place concerning the system

Page 2395

1 of dissemination of information among units? You are aware of that, since

2 you worked in communications; is that so?

3 A. Yes. There were rules on the way of submitting reports.

4 Q. Thank you. The rule was for the lower unit to report to the first

5 immediately superior unit; am I correct?

6 A. That was the way it was, according to the rule of service, yes.

7 Q. In other words, a battalion could not report to a corps, nor could

8 a brigade report to the Supreme Command, provided it was not -- it had not

9 been directly subordinated to it; am I correct?

10 A. You are, that is correct.

11 Q. At the command post of the Supreme Command Staff at Kakanj,

12 therefore, received reports from the corps on events unfolding in their

13 zones of responsibility; right?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. So they did not -- it did not receive reports, for instance, from

16 divisions or brigades? From divisions or brigades.

17 A. It was not supposed to receive reports from divisions or brigades,

18 according to the rule of work.

19 Q. Very well. In fact, the corps command or the appropriate

20 department compiled a report on what they considered to be essential for

21 their zone of responsibility; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you agree that the manner of reporting between the corps and

24 the command post of the Supreme Command Staff was regulated by an order?

25 Was it the case? Did you know that?

Page 2396

1 A. Yes. It was certainly regulated by an order but, of course, I

2 cannot recall which one.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 Your Honours, can the witness please be now shown D378.

5 Your Honours, I should like to explain. We are going to be using

6 two documents as D378 which bear the same date, which is the 27th of

7 December, 1994. Both are documents of the Supreme Command Staff, and they

8 concern the regulation of the dispatching of reports.

9 Q. Witness, would you please first look at this page that you see

10 before you. Would you agree that it says that it is a document of the

11 Supreme Command Staff at the Kakanj command post, the date being the 27th

12 of December, 1994?

13 A. I agree that that is the heading and that that is the date on it.

14 Q. And it concerns the sending of reports. It says "Report sending"?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. And then it goes on to say sent, addressed to all corps, inter

17 alia. Witness, please bear with me and listen carefully. I'm going to

18 read this order out for you.

19 The first item says: "Corps commands and units in the General

20 Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina shall, in future, send their

21 combat reports exclusively to the KM in Kakanj. Combat reports from the

22 corps which contain crucial changes on the BH front, positive or negative

23 reports indicating problems under the jurisdiction of the General Staff

24 commander, will be forwarded to the commander, wherever he may be at the

25 moment, by the duty OC/Operations Centre."

Page 2397

1 Please take a look at the signature which says "Deputy Commander."

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that seems to be on

3 the next page in English.

4 Q. "Deputy Commander," and at the same time Chief of the Supreme

5 Command Staff. The name which is typewritten is "Hadzihasanovic," but

6 obviously someone signed in his stead.

7 Are you familiar with that signature?

8 A. I can not remember. It is written "Enver Hadzihasanovic," but I

9 cannot really recall whether this is indeed his signature.

10 Q. Very well. But let me ask you this in relation to this document.

11 A. It does say "for" here?

12 Q. Yes. That's what I said "for."

13 Very well. Let us go on. It is true, is it not, that as of this

14 date, which is the 27th of December, 1994, the corps commands dispatched

15 combat reports exclusively to the Kakanj command post, and that is where

16 you received them? Is that correct?

17 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.

18 Q. Very well. Yesterday, you testified about certain reports of the

19 3rd Corps sent to the Kakanj command post, did you not? Do you remember

20 that?

21 A. Yes. I read out some sentences from those reports and commented

22 on those reports.

23 Q. Very well. Thank you. Witness, let us now take a look at page 2,

24 the second portion of this document.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The next page of this document,

Page 2398

1 please.

2 Your Honours, perhaps, this is a rather faded copy, so we shall

3 give a hard copy to the witness of this document.

4 Q. Witness, please, please take a look.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Sometimes, Your Honours, we have a

6 problem with the scanning, and the copy which is produced is not as clear

7 as the original document.

8 Q. So, Witness, please, take a look at this document. Do we agree

9 that it also bears the date the 27th December, that it also regulates the

10 subject matter of the sending of reports, and that it is an order?

11 You can gather as much from the document; right?

12 A. Right. Exactly. That is exactly what is written here.

13 Q. I will quote for you: "In order to secure the functioning of

14 command and control and the necessary degree of protection and of security

15 of information, I order: Summary combat reports from the Staff of the

16 Army of the BiH will be delivered by the Administration for Operations

17 Affairs via the Operations Centre in Sarajevo to the Presidency; to the

18 commander of the General Staff of the Army when he is in Sarajevo; to the

19 Main Logistics Centre, Visoko; and to the Administration for Morale for

20 the purpose of informing the public."

21 What -- the question that I want to put to you has to do with

22 this: When the document says "will be delivered by the Administration for

23 Operations Planning via the Operations Centre," summary reports will be

24 delivered through them -- by them, that is.

25 I should like to ask you about what you said yesterday when you

Page 2399

1 said, "We would prepare these reports in sublimated form." What you

2 actually meant is that you summarised the reports or you prepared summary

3 reports. Did I understand you correctly?

4 A. Yes, that is precisely what I meant.

5 Q. So this order was respected throughout 1995, was it not, as long

6 as you worked there?

7 A. This is the way in which we worked through the Operations

8 Centre -- this is the way we worked through the Operations Centre, as I

9 also mentioned before.

10 Q. In other words, the commander of the Supreme Command Staff did not

11 receive reports that arrived at the Kakanj command post from corps, but

12 all the corps reports would be summarised, summaries prepared, and sent to

13 Sarajevo, to the Presidency, and inter alia also to the commander; am I

14 right?

15 A. You are right.

16 Q. Very well. This document also states: "Deputy commander, at the

17 same time, Chief of Staff Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic"; is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. And you were aware of these functions of his, were you not?

21 A. Yes. This was also regulated by the order; his function, that is.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can these two

24 documents be tendered under one number?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The two documents are admitted under one number.

Page 2400

1 May it please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 371.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I shall try to

5 demonstrate what we have been discussing on an example of a document, so

6 could you please put away these documents and show the witness the same

7 exhibit that he saw yesterday, that was shown to him by the Prosecutor;

8 that is, Exhibit 363.

9 For the transcript, this is a document of the Command of the 3rd

10 Corps of the 16th of June, 1995, which says "Regular Combat Report."

11 Q. You read it yesterday, Witness; namely, that this report was sent

12 to the General or Main Staff at the command post at Kakanj. Do you

13 remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do remember.

15 Q. You looked at it yesterday. Please remember this date. I should

16 like to direct your attention at this part where it says: "The situation

17 and the activities of the enemy," where it refers to the Zavidovici --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you.

19 We would like Their Honours also to be able to see that portion of

20 the document that I'm referring to.

21 Q. So it says: "The situation and activities of the enemy," and you

22 can see it refers to the Zavidovici-Mount Ozren axis and the

23 Vranduk-Prnjavor and the Tesanj-De Venta axes. We are concerned with

24 these two axes.

25 Please focus on and remember one of these axis; for instance, this

Page 2401

1 first one, the Zavidovici-Ozren axis under item 1.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page number 1 again,

3 please, item 1?

4 Q. Look here under the Zavidovici-Ozren Mountain axis. There is a

5 description of the aggressor's activities and the region of Jablanica is

6 referred to, so please make a mental note of that.

7 After that, look at the Vranduk-Prnjavor axis, which is on the

8 next page in the English version, and look, for instance, at this. It

9 says: "On the Vranduk-Prnjavor axis, the aggressor organised attacks from

10 the direction of Kosovnjak and Balabanovac."

11 Right. I'm just asking you to remember these locations that I'm

12 referring to.

13 Very well. Now, please look, again, at the portion shown to you

14 yesterday by the Prosecutor, which is under item 2, item 2, which

15 describes a situation and says: "The 35th Division."

16 The last sentence says: "The next combat activities will be

17 executed in which the El Mujahid Detachment will be participating."

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And for Theirs Honours, if the next

19 page could be shown, because that particular portion is shown on the next

20 page. Yes.

21 Q. Please make a mental note of this also, Witness. You remember

22 commenting on this yesterday?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this document can

25 be now moved away, as I wish to show you another document.

Page 2402

1 Can the witness please take a look at D385. This is a report.

2 I apologise, Your Honours. Your Honours, I should just like to

3 say at this point, as you are not going to have the entire document

4 translated, that we really encounter serious problems with translations,

5 which practically block me in my cross-examinations.

6 So we are only able to have the most essential parts translated,

7 and I do regret the fact that you cannot see these documents translated

8 into English in their entirety. I shall certainly request that this

9 document be completely translated, but, believe me, it is beyond my powers

10 to do anything to improve the situation, and I am asking you to please

11 bear with me.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll bear with you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,

14 for your understanding.

15 Q. Please, Witness, this is a report of the General Staff of the

16 Army, the Administration for Operations/Planning in Kakanj of the 17th of

17 June, 1995. The document is entitled "Situation in the Theatre of War"

18 for the 16th of June, 1995. Is that correct?

19 Do you agree that it says that this memo is to be submitted to the

20 president of the ARBiH Presidency and to the commander of the Army?

21 A. Yes. I agree that this is what it says. And next to the

22 commander there's also the GLOC Command mentioned there.

23 Q. Thank you. From this particular section, we can see that on the

24 17th of June, 1995, on that date, the General Staff of Army in Kakanj,

25 through the Planning Administration, forwards information on the situation

Page 2403

1 on the 16th of June, and the information is sent to these addressees. Is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They also state the commander -- they mention the commander of the

5 army here; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall me showing you earlier today the document dated the

8 27th of December, which stipulated that the Operations/Planning

9 Administration should be forwarding summary reports to Sarajevo, to both

10 the Presidency and the commander? Do you recall that this was the case?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. And as you see, this document confirms this, because it says the

13 Operations/Planning Administration -- or rather the Administration for

14 Operative Planning as the author of this document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And this is the way that things operated in practice; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes. The administration drafted the document and forwarded it to

19 these addressees through the DC [as interpreted].

20 Q. Please look at page 2 of the document now?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And let's have the top of the page,

22 please.

23 Q. Take a look at this, and do you agree that the activities of the

24 aggressor are being described there, and then the activities of our

25 forces?

Page 2404

1 A. Yes, I do agree. This is in compliance with the standard

2 procedure governing these reports and their particular headlines.

3 Q. Thank you. Please look at page 3 of the document now.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the part where the

5 signature can be seen in the Bosnian version, please.

6 Q. Do you agree that we can see that the document was drafted by the

7 head of the Duty Service, Ibrahim Begic? Do you know that person?

8 A. Yes. He drafted the report. I know the person, and he has passed

9 away.

10 Q. But at the time, he was working there?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 1 on our screens

13 once more.

14 Your Honours, can we just correct a mistake on the transcript.

15 On page 47, line 1 -- or rather, the previous line, line 25, my

16 question was: "In what way did things operate in practice?"

17 The witness said: "The administration drafted the document and

18 forwarded it to the addressees," and the witness said "through the

19 Operations Centre" and not "through the Distribution Centre."

20 If we could clarify this with the witness.

21 Q. Was it the Operations Centre?

22 A. Yes, yes, yes. The report went through the Operations Centre,

23 where there was the duty officer.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This mistake was on page 47, line 1;

25 instead of -- or rather, the "DC" was recorded instead of the "OC,"

Page 2405

1 "Operations Centre," if this could be rectified.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam. I guess it has been

3 rectified.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, look at page 1 and tell me if you agree that what this

6 describes are the aggressor's activities. I wish to draw your attention

7 to the last sentence of the document.

8 You see here, in the area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps,

9 which is relevant to our case, and that's why my question has to do with

10 that. Do you agree --

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, I'm referring to

12 the lower bottom part of the document, beneath the headline "Aggressor's

13 Activities." There should be a body of text following that.

14 Q. Witness, it says here that the aggressor acted against places and

15 so on and so forth. You see that the area of responsibility of the 3rd

16 Corps is being described here; do you see that?

17 A. Yes. This has to do with the 3rd Corps.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 2 in the

19 English version.

20 Q. Please look at the section of the document where the 35th Division

21 is being described. In the beginning, they're describing the activities

22 of the 35th Division in their area of responsibility in the Ozren part of

23 the theatre. Heightened movement was noted in the area of the Jablanica

24 village.

25 Do you recall me mentioning certain locations in the report of the

Page 2406

1 3rd Corps? Is it true that the 16th of June report concerning the 3rd

2 Corps dealt with this particular part of the theatre?

3 A. I do recall that.

4 Q. The mentioning of Jablanica in that other report?

5 A. Yes, the mention of Jablanica.

6 Q. And please look at the section where they're mentioning the

7 Vranduk-Prnjavor axis, where they're saying that the aggressor carried out

8 infantry attacks from Kosovnjak and Balabanovac towards the Pribije

9 sector.

10 Do you recall these localities being mentioned in the 16th of June

11 report of the 3rd Corps that I just referred to a moment ago?

12 A. Yes, I do, I recall that. I recall the location of Balabanovac

13 that has been mentioned.

14 Q. Thank you. Please look at the text that follows further down,

15 concerning the "Activities of our Forces." Do you agree that it is the

16 first time that the 2nd and 3rd Corps are being mentioned, at the very

17 bottom of the document, where it says: "In the area of responsibility of

18 the 3rd, 4th, and 7th Corps, our forces responded occasionally to the

19 provocations by the aggressor."

20 In doing that, the firing positions of the aggressor were noted,

21 as well as their fortifying positions and coordinating fire.

22 Please look further down, where it says "Casualties" or"Losses."

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document be scrolled up,

24 please, so we can see the bottom part of it, and can we have the following

25 page in both versions.

Page 2407

1 Q. Losses concerning the 2nd and 3rd Corps, we can only see "1 TR."

2 That's for the 2nd Corps, and there were "2 TR" and "3 LR" for the 3rd

3 Corps.

4 I suppose that "TR" and "LR" stand for severely or lightly

5 wounded. Would you agree with me, sir?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Please go carefully through the document now.

8 Before I put my question, let's go back to what we said. We said

9 that "LR" stood for "Lightly Wounded" and "TR" for "Severely Wounded." I

10 thought you agreed with me on that point.

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. You've just seen the 16th of June report that the 3rd Corps had

13 sent to the Kakanj General Staff. You saw that there was a piece of

14 information concerning the El Mujahedin Detachment there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you agree with me that, quite simply, the piece of

17 information dated the 16th of June went from Kakanj to Sarajevo, to the

18 commander and Presidency, and that this piece of information has simply

19 disappeared when it comes to this summary report from Kakanj?

20 A. This summary report does not contain that piece of information

21 which had been sent to Sarajevo. It has been left out.

22 Q. Would you agree with me that it was left out simply because this

23 was a lower-ranking unit which did not bear any significance for the

24 strategic level of the army; is that right?

25 A. The duty officer who drafted the report decided on whether to

Page 2408

1 include that piece of information or not. He was experienced enough to do

2 that job. The level of a detachment would not normally be included in

3 such reports, unless there were some radical situations involved.

4 Therefore, my answer to your question would be, "Yes."

5 Q. Let us clarify this. A radical situation would involve some

6 unusual and highly-significant events or security problems, and only such

7 a piece of information would then be sent on to the commander; is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be assigned an

11 exhibit number, please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 372.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we set this document aside now.

17 I want the witness to look at another combat report.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask you a question, because I thought

19 that the purpose of showing us these documents was to give us examples of

20 documents submitted through the witness, some of which would go only to

21 the command post in Kakanj, while others would be so important that they

22 would be forwarded directly to the Main Staff.

23 If this is correctly understood, then my question is: Which of

24 these documents would then only go to Kakanj and which of them would be so

25 important as to be forwarded directly to the Main Staff?

Page 2409

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, quite respectfully, it

2 seems to me that this was not my intention. Yesterday, the Prosecutor

3 showed a report to the witness which was sent from the 3rd Corps to the

4 Kakanj command post.

5 The witness testified that out of this extensive report and

6 several other different reports arriving in Kakanj, a summary report was

7 made. I have just shown what the summary report was like, with the

8 intention of showing what sort of information reached the commander in

9 Sarajevo, in fact.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. I find this helpful.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Your Honour.

12 I will be dealing with the other sort of documents that the

13 Prosecutor had been dealing with, by all means.

14 Could the witness be shown document P22 -- or rather P02272. This

15 is a regular combat report dated the 20th of July, 1995. It was also made

16 by the 3rd Corps and was sent to the Kakanj command post.

17 Q. Witness, please have a good look at the document once it appears

18 on the screen. Bear the date in mind. Do you agree with me that this is

19 the 3rd Corps Command report dated the 20th of July, 1995, and addressed

20 to Kakanj? Do you see that?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. As you see, the document speaks of the situation and the

23 activities of the enemy, UN forces, and UNMO. Look at the axes involved.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown, one by

25 one, the second, third and fourth pages of the document.

Page 2410

1 Q. Take a good look, please. You see the situation and activities of

2 the 3rd Corps are being described here at the top of page 2; is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if you can see it in

6 the English version. Yes, Your Honours, now you can see the situation in

7 the 3rd Corps.

8 Further down, the combat morale situation is described. Now you

9 can see it. Can we have the next page, both versions.

10 Q. You see, Witness, the mobilisation and organisation-related

11 issues, reinforcement, the logistic support. And at the bottom, you see,

12 added in handwriting, "the security situation." This was added in

13 handwriting by someone?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let's have a look at

16 the next page in English.

17 Q. You see there: "State of security, security situation." I

18 believe you were able to view this document.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now if we can have a look at the

20 last page, where the signature is, and Their Honours can see it as well.

21 Q. It says "Commander." "Colonel Ekrem Alihodzic, on behalf of the

22 Commander." Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask for

25 an exhibit number for this document, please.

Page 2411

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 373.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Madam Vidovic, how much longer are you going to be? According to

6 the time calculation, you're left with two minutes compared to what the

7 Prosecution used.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think half an hour.

9 I believe that this is sensitive subject matter and that we would require

10 more time than allocated for me to be able to make you understand the

11 matters discussed clearly.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, perhaps I failed to mention something. In the previous

15 document, I think there was a mention of the El Mujahedin Detachment. I

16 omitted this.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we can have the

18 document back on the screen. I don't know whether it is -- it has been

19 exhibited. I think it is 373. Perhaps we can have a look at the second

20 page one more time. Exhibit 373, second page, please. Page 2, please.

21 Perhaps it is on the next page, where it says "Situation and

22 Activities." The next page in the English.

23 Q. Witness, please focus on the part which says -- look at the

24 paragraph which says there was a regrouping of forces.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you can see that.

Page 2412

1 Q. There was a regrouping of forces. It says --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Perhaps counsel could specify which paragraph

3 she was reading from.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Counsel, you're asked by the interpreters to

5 specify where you're reading from.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I was reading from the

7 second page, under the title "Situation and Activities of the Forces of

8 the 3rd Corps," the third paragraph. It is marked now.

9 Q. "Redeployment of the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion, forces from the 1st

10 Corps zone of responsibility to the 35th Division. Zone of responsibility

11 is completed in the village of Cardak with the purpose of joining the El

12 Mujahedin Detachment."

13 Witness, please bear that in mind. This is the report sent by the

14 corps the KM Kakanj on the 20th.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can put this document

16 away now and show another document to the witness, D379. For the

17 transcript, this is a Command Post Kakanj document dated the 21st of July,

18 1995, with the title "Situation in the Bosnia-Herzegovina Theatre" for the

19 20th of July, 1995. This document is to be distributed to the army

20 commander and the president of the Presidency.

21 Q. Do you agree with me, Witness, that this is what it says, that

22 this is a General Staff document from Kakanj, the 21st of July?

23 Below that, it says: "Situation in the BH theatre on the 20th of

24 July, 1995"; and among others, the commander is one of the addressees.

25 Can you see that?

Page 2413

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. Please have a look at the introductory portion. Do you agree with

3 me that it says: "Based on daily combat reports of corps commands," and

4 so on and so forth. This is the situation on the BH front on the 20th of

5 July, 1995; can you see that?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. The subtitle says: "Activities of the Aggressor" on the first

8 page.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us move on to the second page,

10 please.

11 Q. Witness, have a look at "The Activities of Our Forces." Do you

12 agree with me that these are activities of the units of the 1st, 2nd, and

13 3rd Corps that were described here? Do you agree that the activities of

14 all corps on the 20th of July were described on this single page?

15 A. Yes, I agree with that.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now move on to page 3.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we scroll the English down, please. Can we see

18 the top of the page. Thank you. Can we keep going. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at page 2 again.

20 No, the third page, in the middle. In the English as well. The second

21 page of the English, please.

22 Please let us see where it says the 3rd Corps. Thank you.

23 Q. Witness, have a look at the text where it says "the 3rd Corps" out

24 loud. Not out loud, sorry. Read it to yourself.

25 It literally takes up the space of only five lines, if I'm

Page 2414

1 correct, six perhaps.

2 A. There are five lines of text.

3 Q. Very well. Witness, we saw the reports for the 20th of July,

4 1995, that was sent from the 3rd Corps to the command post of the General

5 Staff in Kakanj. It had four pages, if you recall.

6 Now, those four pages become five lines of text in this document;

7 is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Do you agree that there is no mention here of the El Mujahedin

10 unit in this part of the text that has to do with the activities of the

11 3rd Corps? Please have a careful look.

12 A. Yes. As far as I can see, there is no such mention. There is no

13 mention of that detachment.

14 Q. Thank you. Is this an example of the summary reports you sent

15 after having received corps reports at the command post in Kakanj? You

16 would send such reports to the Presidency and General Delic in Sarajevo.

17 Is this an example of such a summary report?

18 A. Yes, it is. It contains all of the items that needed to be

19 reported on. That is how I recognise it.

20 Q. Does this confirm what you told us before, and that was that the

21 units of small size, such as companies and detachments, would not make it

22 into such a report unless there was a specific reason?

23 A. They would not, unless some drastic situations had to be

24 mentioned, completely extraordinary situations.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 2415

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have

2 an exhibit number for this document, and I believe it is time for our

3 break.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 374.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

9 We'll take a break and come back at half past 12.00.

10 Court adjourned.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. Witness, before the break, we stopped at those summary reports. I

16 would like you to give us another clarification. I was showing to you

17 reports from the 3rd Corps that had arrived at the command post of the

18 Staff in Kakanj, and then reports that were sent from Kakanj to Sarajevo,

19 to the Presidency or the commander; right?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. In this connection, I should like to ask you whether it is also

22 correct that all other corps dispatched such reports; namely, reports on

23 daily combat activities which they sent to Kakanj?

24 A. That is correct, or the other corps and the GLOC, which is the

25 main logistic centre, also did.

Page 2416

1 Q. So, such summary report was to comprise all the information that

2 had arrived at the Kakanj command post from all the corps. It was to be,

3 as you put it, "sublimated" and then submitted to Sarajevo; right?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. Witness, I do not have much time on my hands to show you a lot of

6 other documents, but I should like to remind you that the Prosecutor

7 showed you, yesterday, Exhibit 361. This was a daily combat report of the

8 3rd Corps of the 8th of October, 1994. Do you remember that? A report

9 from 1994 was shown to you.

10 A. I cannot remember what it was about.

11 Q. I will remind you. There was also a report from the 3rd Corps

12 from the 3rd of April, 1995. This was Exhibit 362. I would remind you,

13 in both these reports, you read out for our benefit portions which dealt

14 with information on the El Mujahedin Detachment, sent from the 3rd Corps

15 to the Kakanj command post. Do you remember them now?

16 A. Yes, now I do. Yes. They were shown to me.

17 Q. Witness, you can in no way confirm for us that that information

18 from the -- were actually sent from the Kakanj Staff, Supreme Command

19 Staff, to General Delic, can you?

20 A. What I do know is that such information was comprised within a

21 joint report in the Operations Centre in Kakanj, and then that report

22 would be submitted to the known addresses in Sarajevo, the commander and

23 the others. I'm not aware of any other ways.

24 Q. Thank you. So we would have to consult those reports to see what

25 exactly had gone to Sarajevo; right?

Page 2417

1 A. Right.

2 Q. Thank you. As regards these reports, you actually don't know

3 anything; and when I say "these reports," I'm referring to the reports of

4 the 3rd Corps which contained information about the El Mujahid, the ones

5 that you read yesterday, namely. So you personally don't know anything

6 about the accuracy of the information that was written in those reports?

7 A. I don't know. That information was received in the form of

8 reports, which I neither verified nor needed to check out. I simply

9 participated sometimes in the compiling of a joint report, in respect of

10 the elements which pertained to the security item.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Berbic, I shall now like to ask you a

12 different thing, because you are one of the rare witnesses who could

13 appear before this Tribunal and who has actually worked both on security

14 duties, while at the same time being a communications expert. Therefore,

15 I will ask you to clarify some of the things which figure very often here,

16 in terms of contents of documents and their manner of transmission.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness be

18 shown at this point D380.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, may I ask you to slow down a little

20 bit.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I

22 will do so, and I apologise.

23 D380, Your Honours, this is a document which consists of three

24 sub-documents, which are interlinked, as you will see.

25 Q. Witness, I should like you to look at this document of the General

Page 2418

1 Staff of the Army. Do you see the date, which is the 22nd of July, 1995?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. And you can see that this is about -- that the General Staff

4 document is submitted to the Security Administration. That appears to be

5 the case. Can you tell us what this is actually about?

6 A. This is about, namely, this report, judging by its heading is a

7 consolidated, sublimated report about the successes of the combatants of

8 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 21st of July, 1995.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I should just like us to see the

11 signature. The second page, please, of both the English and the Bosnian

12 versions.

13 Q. Do you see the name written here "Deputy Chief in the SVB, Colonel

14 Sacir Arnautovic," and you knew this person, did you not?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. It is true, is it not, that General Jasarevic was this person's

17 superior at the time this document was made? Right?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to the first

20 page of this document. Can you please scroll down the English version a

21 bit. Please focus on the fifth paragraph in the document.

22 Q. This document refers to -- take a look at the fifth paragraph. It

23 refers to certain successes. I'm interested in the last sentence, which

24 says: "Fifty bodies of dead Chetniks were pulled out to our side, while

25 about 40 were captured alive by the El Mujahedin unit."

Page 2419

1 Please make a mental note, Witness, of this information, and now

2 take a look at the top of this document.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The very top. Please scroll down

4 the English version as well.

5 Q. Witness, please, this is of the essence. This question that you

6 refer to in your statement today, and this is a question which might be

7 sowing confusion amongst people who are not versed in communications and

8 military structures; namely, today you said that documents were

9 transmitted via cryptographic protection.

10 And as you are a specialist in signals, in communications, and as

11 you obviously know what that is, would you please be so kind, Witness, as

12 to explain to us what that means? What does it mean that a document is

13 conveyed via cryptographic protection? What happens to the original of

14 the document when it is being dispatched in this way?

15 A. When it is conveyed under cryptographic protection, the document

16 which is actually being transmitted remains with the sender. The original

17 remains with the sender.

18 Q. Is it correct that the document that is received by the recipient

19 is a retyped document, in fact?

20 A. Yes. It came to the recipient by electronic means and is just

21 simply printed at the recipient point by the printer.

22 Q. Very well. So that means when a document is transmitted under

23 cryptographic protection, as is the case here, as is written here, so when

24 it is transmitted in this way, it is not possible to see the signature.

25 It is possible to see the name of the person where there is an indication

Page 2420

1 of the signature; is that not right? Actually, you, yourself, drew our

2 attention to that today.

3 A. It is impossible to transmit the signature except by facsimile,

4 and this was not the case here.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now turn to the next page,

6 Your Honours. Actually, I apologise, Your Honours, the third page of this

7 document, the third page of the Bosnian version.

8 Q. Witness, please look at this document. You saw this memo of

9 information with the same date, the 22nd of July, 1995. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall our reading this part, which is a bit lower, in the

12 version in our language?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. It is

14 the following page in English, so that I'm going to pause for a while.

15 Thank you.

16 Q. So do you remember that we saw this bit of information about 50

17 dead bodies having been pulled out and then a tank was seized and so on

18 and so forth?

19 Do you remember that actually here there is no reference to the 40

20 people captured by the El Mujahid Detachment, which was referred to in the

21 previous document? Do you remember?

22 A. In this document, that particular reference is not made. That bit

23 of information is not contained in it.

24 Q. So in this document, where the place for the signature is, it is

25 written "Army General Rasim Delic"; do you agree? His name is indicated

Page 2421

1 there?

2 A. Yes, his name and his position.

3 Q. Do you agree that we have some initials here?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Very well. Do you agree -- would you agree that, thus, on the

6 basis of just a document of this kind we just named, we're actually never

7 able to ascertain for a fact whether that particular person did, indeed,

8 sign the document if it was transmitted under cryptographic protection.

9 Am I right? We would have to see the original?

10 A. We would have to see the original if an encoded document was sent

11 in this way. What would be received would be only what the product of the

12 printer would be.

13 Q. Please consult all these references here about all the corps, the

14 successfully operations. Take a look at this text for a while.

15 Now please look at the following page, the next page of this

16 document in both our language and English.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please scroll down. Scroll

18 down the Bosnian version for the witness to see.

19 Q. Witness, do you agree that this is a memo with the same number,

20 the same date, exactly the same document as the one that we just saw, but

21 the signature here --

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see again, please, the

23 signature.

24 Q. Do you see here a "KZ" which actually indicates cryptographic date

25 of protection, and indicates the exact time when it was dispatched, 14.48

Page 2422

1 hours, 22nd July, 1995?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So, Witness, please take a hard look at this signature. Do you

4 agree with me that it was not actually signed by General Delic? A while

5 ago, you said that you were familiar with his signature.

6 A. I do agree. And apart from that, there is a "for" here which only

7 confirms that.

8 Q. Right. So could you tell me if you perhaps happen to know who

9 signed this? Are you familiar with this signature, if you can recognise

10 it?

11 A. I'm not sure in this form, no.

12 Q. Fine. Very well. Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

14 tendered as an exhibit.

15 Q. Witness, once again, in order for us to be able to ascertain

16 whether someone has signed an original document which is being sent under

17 cryptographic data protection, we must be able to see the original; right?

18 A. Any document, every document which is transmitted under this "KZ"

19 system has to be signed in the first place in order to be sent at all.

20 That was the rule.

21 Q. Yes. But in order for us to be able to know who actually did the

22 signing, we would have to see the original; right?

23 A. Yes. We would have to see the original in the file, in the

24 protocol, to extract the actual document to see who affixed their

25 signature to it.

Page 2423

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, a couple of lines before, you asked

2 that this document be admitted into evidence. Do you think you can allow

3 us to do that?

4 Before we do that, can I find out from the witness if he does

5 recognise the signature of the person, the signature on the left, not the

6 author, but the one who's signed under the cryptographic data protection

7 thing, "1448 hours."

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot recognise

9 that signature.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

12 exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 375.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put this document aside now.

17 Q. When preparing for your testimony, you were shown a large document

18 by the Prosecutor. Its number is P03035, and they used portions of that

19 document today.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was 3059.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. First of all, I'd like to ask you something concerning the

23 bulletins and special information. I do not mean the contents of any

24 given bulletin, but rather about bulletins and special information in

25 general, since you also worked in the Security Administration.

Page 2424

1 I wanted to ask you this: Such bulletins and documents containing

2 special information are actually documents by the Security Administration

3 that were produced in a limited number of copies. Its addressees were

4 clearly prescribed. Am I correct?

5 A. Those are the documents of the Security Service, with a limited

6 number of copies produced, each of which had to be filed and sent to a

7 particular address.

8 Q. Would you agree with me that the Security Administration issued an

9 order on distributing such documents?

10 A. There was a standard procedure in place. I personally do not

11 remember seeing such a document, but there was a procedure. Such a

12 document was probably in existence; however, I do not remember it.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please show

14 D319 to the witness now -- 219. For the record, it is a document by the

15 Supreme Command Staff, Security Administration, dated the 22nd of July,

16 1993, signed by Chief Jusuf Jasarevic.

17 Q. Witness, it is a short document.

18 It says "Order," and then: "Bulletins and special information

19 documents shall be prepared in five copies and sent as follows.

20 Do you agree with me that the number of copies and addressees are

21 clearly stipulated here?

22 A. Judging by what I can see here, there were five copies, with their

23 addressees from 1 to 5.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with me that the Security Administration

25 bulletins or bulletin was intended -- or rather, the copy intended for the

Page 2425

1 commander would arrive at Kakanj, that particular copy, I mean?

2 A. As far as I know, that copy would come to the commander in Kakanj

3 and in Sarajevo, if he was in Sarajevo at the time or somewhere else.

4 That's what I believe.

5 Q. That is what you believe, then, but we're not talking about two

6 such copies, but only one copy?

7 A. Yes, one copy.

8 Q. Thank you. You told us you gave a statement to the Office of the

9 Prosecutor. I believe it was in October of 2005. Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes, I do remember that.

11 Q. Do you remember describing in detail the procedure used with the

12 bulletins?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is paragraph 52 of

14 the statement.

15 Q. Witness, I wanted to ask you this: Do you remember having said

16 that you would deliver the bulletin personally to the Chief of Staff, of

17 course, in those situations when General Delic was absent?

18 A. As far as I remember, I said that if he was absent, I would hand

19 it over to the Chief of Staff or to the next highest-ranking officer of

20 the administration. I believe it was regulated in such a way that it

21 could be done with certain documents.

22 Q. Very well. So that means that you wouldn't wait for Delic to come

23 within a fortnight or a month and then to show him that, would you, or did

24 you?

25 A. No, I did not. I would simply take it there when I was told to

Page 2426

1 and hand it over.

2 Q. The Chief of Staff, as you said, since you saw Hadzihasanovic's

3 signatures on the documents, the Chief of Staff was at the same time the

4 commander's deputy when he was absent?

5 A. Yes. We concluded that based on the organisational orders you've

6 shown me today.

7 Q. Therefore, I am correct in believing that when the commander was

8 absent, bulletins would be received by the Chief of Staff; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes. When the commander was absent, the Chief of Staff would

11 receive those.

12 Q. I want to remind you of another part of your statement. That is

13 paragraph 59, where you say that he would study the bulletins; and if he

14 deemed it necessary, he would undertake certain measures. Do you remember

15 that?

16 A. Yes. I remember having said that; however, that is my assumption.

17 Q. Thank you. When we opened up this topic and during your testimony

18 yesterday and this morning, the Prosecutor showed you some documents

19 concerning the bulletins, and you told us you would take them to the DC.

20 In no way can you confirm to us whether they were actually

21 delivered to General Delic, himself, am I correct, personally to him, or

22 whether they ended up with Hadzihasanovic? Do you know any -- do you know

23 that?

24 A. I cannot remember any situations in which I delivered that

25 personally to them. That was not the procedure. There was always the

Page 2427

1 commander's secretary there, and I couldn't get to the commander.

2 Q. Therefore, you don't know whether Delic ever saw any of the

3 bulletins, be it in Sarajevo or elsewhere, or whether his Chef de Cabinet

4 saw it? You can't assist us on that, can you?

5 A. I cannot say anything of the sort. I never saw it.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

8 this document, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 376.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

13 Madam Vidovic, you have used 42 of the 30 minutes that you had

14 asked for.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a lot of

16 documents and paperwork. I don't know whether this is -- whether we've

17 given an exhibit number to this last document. We did.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have, 376. But the point I was making is that

19 you had asked for 30 minutes before the break, and we are now 33 minutes

20 after the break, and you had used 20 earlier before we went for the

21 break -- ten, rather.

22 Do sit down.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I accept that, Your Honour. I

24 apologise. I moved along rather slowly since we had to refer to many

25 documents; however, I do conclude my cross-examination.

Page 2428

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say you are done with your

3 cross-examination, Madam?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Any re-examination, Mr. Menon?

7 MR. MENON: Yes, Your Honour. Excuse me. Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

9 MR. MENON: If we could pull up Exhibit P03059. If we could go to

10 page 113 of the English and the B/C/S.

11 Re-examination by Mr. Menon:

12 Q. Mr. Berbic, do you see the document in front of you?

13 A. Yes, I see.

14 Q. Where is the document being sent?

15 A. This document was sent to the command post of the General Staff at

16 Kakanj, Military Security Administration, for General -- Colonel Sacir

17 Arnautovic.

18 Q. And what does the document instruct?

19 A. There is an instruction to the effect that the Military Security

20 Administration is forwarding this particular bulletin dated the 24th of

21 June, 1995, so that it could be delivered to the commander of the General

22 Staff of the Army, Army General Rasim Delic, for his information.

23 MR. MENON: If we could go to the next page in this document,

24 which should be page 112, English and B/C/S, please.

25 Q. Is this document also being sent to Kakanj, and does it also

Page 2429

1 instruct Mr. Arnautovic to forward a bulletin to General Delic, along with

2 a document entitled "SI"?

3 A. Yes. This document reads sending bulletins to the command post of

4 the General Staff of the Army at Kakanj, the same address. The

5 instruction is that it should be forwarded to the General Staff army

6 commander for his information.

7 MR. MENON: Thank you. If we could go to the next page of this

8 document, both in English and B/C/S.

9 Q. Mr. Berbic, does this document -- is this document also being sent

10 to Kakanj, and does it also instruct Colonel Arnautovic to forward a

11 bulletin and a special report to General Delic?

12 A. I would like to clarify something. The original is not sent, of

13 course. This original remained in Sarajevo; however, probably it was sent

14 to Kakanj via cryptographic protection, sent to this address.

15 Q. Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Berbic.

16 MR. MENON: If we could now go to --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, that clarification confuses me.

18 What do you mean by "the original remained in Sarajevo;

19 however..." The original of what? Of this document?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The original of this document, I

21 suppose, since I see a handwritten note, "Sent on the 25th of June" at a

22 certain time. It is a standard notation if a document is being sent by

23 packet communication.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that mean that this is the original or that

25 this is the copy that is retained by the author; whereas, the original

Page 2430

1 that encloses these documents has gone to the recipient?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This original remained with the

3 sender.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the sender never sends the original; the sender

5 sends the copy, is that your testimony, and keeps the original?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that communication

7 means cannot forward a signature. They can only send or receive text.

8 The contents of this were received at a certain address; however, the

9 original remains with the sender, in this case the Military Security

10 Administration in Sarajevo.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

12 Yes, Mr. Menon.

13 MR. MENON: I would just note for the record that the last three

14 documents that I showed the witness, two of them are dated the 25th of

15 June, and then the first one was dated the 24th of June.

16 If we could now move to page 110 of this exhibit, English and

17 B/C/S, and this document is dated the 26th of June.

18 Q. Mr. Berbic, is this document also being sent to Kakanj, to Colonel

19 Arnautovic, and does it also require that the bulletin be forwarded to

20 General Delic?

21 A. Yes, the addressee is the same.

22 MR. MENON: Thank you, Mr. Berbic.

23 If we could go to page 109 of this document, English and B/C/S.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Menon. Are you going to be going

25 through a whole number of pages that say exactly the same thing as that.

Page 2431

1 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I actually did intend to do that, and I

2 feel it's necessary to do that for clarification, because on

3 cross-examination this witness had indicated that General Delic was seldom

4 in Kakanj. This exhibit contains a number of documents stretching from

5 the end of June until the end of December, and they're all in a similar

6 format.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you're going to take us through all of them?

8 MR. MENON: Well, to the point -- in order to make a particular

9 point. I don't need to, actually. I'm prepared to tender this exhibit

10 for that purpose at this point, but I expect that there would be an

11 objection to that, so I'll sit down.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when responding to the

14 Prosecutor's questions, the witness said that General Delic was seldom in

15 Kakanj. If it was his intention to prove that, I believe that the

16 witness, this morning, the witness said that he was in Kakanj seldom.

17 Therefore, I merely followed that up in my cross-examination.

18 But the Prosecutor should have dealt with this during

19 examination-in-chief, in that case. These documents should have been

20 shown to him then.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Perhaps, if I may interrupt, because I had the

22 same question on my mind, how often General Delic was actually in Kakanj.

23 And I noticed the witness's answer very specifically, because the witness

24 said he seldomly saw General Delic in Kakanj. So I was confused, and I

25 was going to put that same question to the witness afterwards, but maybe

Page 2432

1 the Prosecution can clarify if the witness actually knew how frequently

2 General Delic visited Kakanj.

3 MR. MENON: I can do that, Your Honour, and I certainly -- well,

4 first, let me address the point raised by Defence counsel.

5 I don't -- I certainly didn't put the question to the witness this

6 morning as to how frequent General Delic was in -- was in Kakanj, and

7 perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't recall the witness explicitly saying that

8 General Delic was seldom in Kakanj. I didn't raise an objection when the

9 question was posed simply because I thought that I would follow up --

10 follow it up on re-examination in this manner.

11 I believe these documents speak for themselves. These are

12 documents that are consistently being sent to Kakanj, requiring that

13 material be forwarded to General Delic. And as I mentioned, they stretch

14 across a particular period. And so certainly that was my intention, in

15 going through these documents, was to illustrate that point.

16 I can certainly put it to the witness, how frequent General Delic

17 was in Kakanj, but I thought the best way to establish that point was

18 through these documents.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, Mr. Menon.

20 Yes. I think the witness clearly testified that he seldomly saw

21 General Delic at Kakanj, as I said. This, of course, does not necessarily

22 imply that General Delic was not there. However, the witness also

23 testified that even when General Delic was in Kakanj, he would frequently

24 just stop by and be there for a short period of time and then move on to

25 somewhere else, perhaps touring the front lines or doing something else.

Page 2433

1 So I'm not sure that the mere fact that a number of documents were

2 sent to Kakanj, to be brought to General Delic, necessarily implies that

3 he was there at all times. So let's be careful about what we're asking

4 the witness to provide us with.

5 MR. MENON: I take Your Honour's point, and I can certainly move

6 on, if that's the position of the Chamber.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: No. It is not the position of the Chamber. The

8 Chamber -- my position, at least, is that I wish to elicit from the

9 witness his knowledge about how frequent General Delic actually visited

10 Kakanj, not how often he saw him, but how often, to his knowledge, if he

11 knows, he was actually physically present in Kakanj, and for how long he

12 would stay there normally.


14 Q. Mr. Berbic, to your knowledge --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. This whole discussion confuses me

16 further. I was dealing with a specific point of being taken through, page

17 by page, a number of documents which say the same thing, and I wanted to

18 try and speed up the proceedings by suggesting, depending on the position

19 of the Defence, that if you have a batch of those documents that say the

20 same thing, and we have seen several of them already, which establish some

21 kind of pattern, can't you just then tender them all as a batch into

22 evidence?

23 MR. MENON: I can certainly do that, Your Honour, and as I

24 mentioned, I'd be prepared to do that right now, but I wasn't sure how

25 many documents I would need to go through before I would be able to do

Page 2434

1 that, frankly.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I notice my colleague on my left shakes her

3 head. Maybe there is some mistake I'm making somewhere.

4 Judge Lattanzi, would you like to say something?

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 I'm rather confused, even more confused now. I understood that

7 the Prosecutor was showing us all these documents not to establish a

8 pattern that would appear, but simply to show us the dates of these

9 documents and to highlight how frequently, how often General Delic was in

10 Kakanj. Am I mistaken or was this your purpose, Mr. Menon?

11 MR. MENON: That was my purpose. It was simply to show, I

12 suppose, by implication, that if documents marked "Immediate" are

13 consistently being sent to a particular location for a particular person,

14 it might imply that that person is in that location.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: But isn't that establishing a pattern also?

16 MR. MENON: Pardon me?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't that also establishing the pattern?

18 MR. MENON: It's the same thing. I think it's the same thing.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look, I'll withdraw what I was saying. Just go

20 ahead and conduct your case.

21 MR. MENON: I would ask now that this batch of documents, Exhibit

22 P0359, be tendered into evidence, Your Honour.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: This P0359 has already been admitted into evidence

25 as Exhibit 368, but it is just the one page. I don't know whether you now

Page 2435

1 want to tender the remaining pages as a separate exhibit, with a

2 cross-reference to --

3 MR. MENON: I will --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's hear what --

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we do not object to

6 entering or admitting the pages shown by the Prosecutor today. As for the

7 rest, as for the documents we didn't see, we are against that. We have

8 nothing against admitting the documents that were shown to the witness,

9 but only that.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: As I said to you earlier, Mr. Menon, I withdraw

11 what I raised. Go ahead and prosecute your case. If you have to show us

12 those page by page, go ahead.

13 MR. MENON: Okay. Actually, I lost track of the page. I believe

14 I was --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were on 109.

16 MR. MENON: I was on 109. Okay. Brilliant.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need to

18 show all of the documents. If this will save court time, then we can

19 admit it as such. I will withdraw my objection.

20 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would express my appreciation to the

21 Defence for that, and I would ask that this now be tendered in evidence.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to express my exasperation. You know,

23 just go ahead. Go ahead, Mr. Menon.

24 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask now that this document be

25 tendered into evidence.

Page 2436

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 MR. MENON: And now I'll pose the questions that Judge Harhoff --

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 377.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 MR. MENON: -- that I would ask that I pose to the witness.

7 Q. Mr. Berbic, and I'm not speaking about how often you saw General

8 Delic in Kakanj, but based upon -- based upon your knowledge, outside of

9 how often you actually saw him, how frequently was he in Kakanj, based

10 upon what you knew?

11 A. I should just like to draw attention to the fact that, for

12 instance, at the period from which these documents hail, I was a

13 lower-ranking member of the Military Security Service, and my ambit of

14 work did not require of me to have any direct contacts with Commander

15 Delic.

16 So let me repeat, according to what I knew, General Delic came to

17 Kakanj only very seldom; and when he did come, he stayed there only for

18 short periods of time.

19 I had occasion to hear several times that he was there, or I would

20 be told to submit something and I would go there and he would not be

21 there.

22 May I add something else, by your leave?

23 I mentioned earlier that I saw him at two important meetings - of

24 that, I'm certain - and perhaps another couple of times in passing.

25 MR. MENON: Thank you for that interjection, Mr. Berbic.

Page 2437

1 The Prosecution has no further questions, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Menon.

3 Judge Lattanzi.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 I have a question about telephone communications. You told us

7 that at one point in time telephone communications through land lines were

8 cut off, and you were provided with a satellite communication system. Do

9 you remember that?

10 A. Yes, I do remember that, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] These communications were

12 intercepted. There was also a lot of interference on the line. So it was

13 very difficult to communicate, using this channel.

14 So I would like to know the following: After the -- once the

15 tunnel, the Sarajevo tunnel, was built, was the regular -- were the

16 regular land lines back to work -- back at work?

17 A. Your Honours, I don't remember. I cannot associate the existence

18 of the tunnel with the existence of communication links. But what I can

19 say is, as far as I remember in 1995, I believe that there were regular

20 telephone lines in existence. However, they were only used as a means

21 whereby to send cryptographic reports; namely, in open conversations, the

22 telephone was not considered a safe way of communication, and whoever

23 wished to protect their information did not resort much to that particular

24 way of transmitting information.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] One more thing about these

Page 2438

1 reports. You told us that you received reports from units who were on the

2 field, engaged in combat, and that you would prepare summary reports, a

3 compilation of all these reports, and it was only the summary report that

4 was sent to the General Staff.

5 But during the cross-examination, it seemed that we found out that

6 these summaries were extremely brief and short, and you told us that you

7 only included what you deemed necessary to be included in those summary

8 reports; therefore, that you did not deal with all the matters in the

9 summary report.

10 So in the summary, we can't -- there were not elements of

11 everything that had been sent by the corps. You only put the most

12 essential elements in these summary reports; right?

13 A. Your Honours, I apologise. I'm not quite clear what it is that

14 you want to elicit from me. I'm not quite clear about what the final

15 question is.

16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'll ask this question again.

17 I'll reformulate my question.

18 You told us that you were in charge of making summaries of these

19 reports, and I wanted to know whether in those summary reports, you had

20 had -- all the issues were covered, even in a very brief fashion, or

21 whether you were allowed or you had the competence to decide not to cover

22 certain topics that had been dealt with in the reports coming from the

23 corps.

24 A. Your Honours, I will briefly explain the entire procedure.

25 All the reports from all the corps would come to the Operations

Page 2439

1 Centre at the Kakanj command post. There, a team of people comprising

2 members of all the administrations, among whom also I, myself, but not

3 always exclusively I, it could have been one of my colleagues, would come

4 together and everybody would deal with their part of the report.

5 I dealt with the part of the report entitled "Situation of

6 Security in the Units." It was my task, and I had the scope to summarise

7 everything in five or six sentences, everything which concerned security

8 and had come -- all the security information that had come from all the

9 other units, three or four or five pages. It was simpler than to put

10 together -- this was simpler to do than put together all those reports and

11 send them as such to Sarajevo.

12 So we extracted what we needed from those reports on the basis of

13 our experience. It was at the discretion of the specialist assigned to

14 that particular chapter in the report.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But the issues of security, for

16 example, that's fine. So, to your knowledge, a topic regarding security,

17 what was it? For example, the fact that units in the field would have

18 behaved irregularly, something that you would have been told about in a

19 report, and that you would have summed up in a summary report; would that

20 be included, for example?

21 A. Your Honours, I do apologise again. I'm not quite sure what it is

22 that you're asking me.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, you told us that you were

24 in charge of summing up topics regarding security. Among these questions

25 regarding security, according to you, do you think that regular conduct on

Page 2440

1 the battlefield, would that be included in those topics or not?

2 A. Yes, Your Honours. Yes, quite clear. This is my answer: From

3 this multitude of pieces of information that we received daily and which

4 were more or less similar every day, only if something happened out of the

5 ordinary or, as I put it, drastic things, and if this was written in the

6 corps report, for instance, if it was written that, for example, 50

7 members of some of the units of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina, for their personal reasons, disgruntlement or something like

9 that, left the positions, the line of defence, without leave, that would

10 be a great problem and that would have to have been reported; namely,

11 included in the report that we sent.

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Therefore, an irregular conduct

13 towards the civilians or prisoners of war was not considered as an

14 important topic that would be included in the summary report?

15 A. Your Honours, I don't know what conduct that would be, but I have

16 given an example which is important. There could have been incidents

17 between civilians and members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina where

18 the military police would intervene. If this exceeded some normal limits,

19 then reports would be sent, but we did not want to burden the addressees

20 with less significant matters.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.


23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Witness.

24 Let me just ask for some clarification of the issue of General

25 Delic's visits to Kakanj, because you said that, to your knowledge, he was

Page 2441

1 rarely there.

2 A. That is correct, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. Could you say how many times that would be

4 in 1994?

5 A. Your Honours, I am unable to say that in respect of 1994, because

6 it was July, the end of July 1994, when I arrived at the Kakanj command

7 post. And in that particular period, July 1994, or rather, until the end

8 of 1994, I saw him once or twice. I cannot remember exactly now. There

9 were two important meetings. I saw them -- him then. That I know. And I

10 could guess, but I don't want to do that. It was really a long time ago.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is perfectly fine. But, you see, we are

12 sitting back with something we do not quite understand, and I would like

13 you to help us understand, if you can.

14 And what we do not understand is: Why would the Main Staff in

15 Sarajevo send documents to Kakanj to be brought to General Delic if he

16 wasn't there? How would you suggest that we understand these facts? Do

17 you have an explanation? If you don't have, then please say that you

18 can't explain that. But if you know why documents would be sent to

19 Kakanj, even if Delic was somewhere else, then we would be happy to know.

20 A. Your Honours, I would also have to guess why that was so. I was

21 not in circles that were privy.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I would rather just leave it at this,

23 rather than having you speculate on something that you're not sure about.

24 I have one other question for you, sir.

25 If we could ask the Registrar to pull up Exhibit 369. And while

Page 2442

1 we are waiting for that, let me explain a bit about my question, because I

2 think I remember from the organogram that this exhibit includes, in your

3 section, there was also -- there were two sections. There was one for

4 military police affairs, in which you served, and then there was another

5 section dealing with legal affairs.

6 Let's have a look at the organogram, if we can find it. I thought

7 it was Exhibit 369, but I might be wrong. If the parties can help me.

8 It's coming up. Great.

9 Now we have the organogram in front of us, but I am surprised to

10 see that I can't find what I was looking for. I thought that there was,

11 in your section, one department for military police affairs and another

12 department for legal affairs.

13 Maybe Ms. Vidovic can help me. Is it the next organogram?

14 Can we move on to the next page, please? Right, there we are.

15 Yes. If I understand it correctly, sir, you were working in the

16 section for staff and security and military police affairs, and that was

17 in the Department for Staff and Security, Military Police, Personnel and

18 Legal Affairs. And on the organogram, just below your section, there was

19 a section for personnel and legal affairs. Can you see that?

20 Do you see it, Mr. Berbic? Yes. Now it's being highlighted in

21 yellow for you.

22 A. Your Honours, yes, I do see the Department for Staff and Security

23 Affairs and what it consists of, this section for staff and security and

24 the section for personnel and legal affairs.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now, we are obviously interested in issues

Page 2443

1 relating to the prosecution of crimes committed by members of the ABiH.

2 So looking at this organogram, I am curious to know if you can tell us

3 what was dealt with in the section for personnel and legal affairs. And

4 to be more specific, my question is: Was that section dealing with

5 prosecution of alleged crimes committed by members of the ABiH?

6 A. Your Honours, I have to tell you that this particular section was

7 not at the Kakanj command post.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well. So it was left in Sarajevo?

9 A. Yes, in Sarajevo.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know what they did in Sarajevo, what that

11 section was doing in Sarajevo? If you don't, that's fine, just tell us

12 so.

13 A. Maybe I would be able to tell you what a part of their duties -- a

14 part of their work was, but I'm not familiar with the complete content of

15 their work. I, perhaps, of all the staff that worked there, remember a

16 couple of names. This was just a small section with just, for instance,

17 three or four staff [is interpreted].

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can you answer me very specifically on the

19 question of whether, to your knowledge, this section was involved in the

20 investigation and prosecution of crimes allegedly committed by member of

21 the ABiH?

22 A. Your Honours, I don't know that.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. That's fine with me.

24 Thank you very much, sir. I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

Page 2444

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a correction of the

2 transcript. Page 87, 1 and 2, the witness said that it was a small

3 section with one or two staff, and what it says here is "three or four."

4 So can this correction please be introduced there.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I hope the correction is being made.

6 It is quarter to. I have a few questions. I don't know whether

7 the parties are going to have questions after this. I'm mindful of the

8 fact that there is a desire for the witness to be released to go home. I

9 don't know whether we can finish today. My questions won't take more than

10 five minutes.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we have a hearing in this court at 2.15.

13 [Trial Chamber confers].

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let's see if I can finish my questions.

15 Sir, I'm going to try to be very brief. You have told us about a

16 system of communication in your office in Kakanj and the rules that were

17 being laid out for sending out communication. Did you, at every occasion,

18 comply with the rules?

19 A. I, personally, whenever I have that obligation, complied with it.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking about you; and if you can just say

21 "yes," say "yes."

22 And you carried out every instruction you were given?

23 A. Your Honours, as regards the sending of reports and that work,

24 generally speaking, there existed rules which we sought to abide by. I

25 can tell you that, but I cannot remember in every specific case --

Page 2445

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please let me interrupt. I'm not asking you about

2 the rules. I'm asking you if you carried out your instructions as given.

3 Can you remember an occasion when you did not carry out the

4 instructions?

5 A. Your Honours, I cannot remember one, really.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to say that, to the best of your

7 knowledge, you carried out your instructions all the time?

8 A. Your Honours, we tried our best to carry out what was ordered us.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Sorry, sir. I'm not asking you

10 about all of you. I'm asking you about you, personally. My questions are

11 centered on you, alone.

12 To the best of your knowledge, did you carry out your

13 instructions?

14 A. Your Honours, to the best of my knowledge, I carried out the

15 instructions given me.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And if instructions came on a day when you were not

17 present, when you did come to the office, did you carry out those

18 instructions that arrived in your absence?

19 A. Your Honours, when I was not at the office or in the building, my

20 obligations, at the time when I was the head of that segment, which is

21 from October 1995, would be waiting for me in the morning, and I would

22 discharge them then.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Now, I just want to follow on one question that was raised by

25 Judge Lattanzi on the reporting of, as you said it yourself, drastic

Page 2446

1 issues.

2 If, for argument's sake, a crime was committed on the field, would

3 you see that as a drastic measure to be reported in your drafting of the

4 summary? I'm talking about you, personally.

5 A. Your Honours, had I received such information, had such

6 information come in a report, I would have personally sought to

7 incorporate it in the summary report.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: To your knowledge, in the whole office now - I'm

9 now going beyond you - just the whole office, all of you who contributed

10 to this report, would a situation like that be incorporated in the

11 summary?

12 A. Your Honours, if such information was received from a subordinated

13 unit of the corps, it would have had to be conveyed, but that depended on

14 the people -- on the people who were on duty in the specific situation.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would the capture of enemy soldiers be seen as

16 something worth putting in the summary?

17 A. Your Honours, in my opinion, if that involved a larger number, I

18 would have incorporated it in the report.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would a number of 40 be a larger number?

20 A. Your Honours, in my view, that would be such a number.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Now, let me follow up on a question

22 that was raised by Judge Harhoff. He asked you about the sending of

23 documents from Sarajevo to Mr. Delic in Kakanj and was wondering why would

24 he send that often if he wasn't there that often.

25 My question to you is: Am I right to say you told us that

Page 2447

1 Mr. Delic was, most of the time, at the DC in Sarajevo? That's where his

2 main office was?

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I wrong? I guess the DC was not in Sarajevo; it

5 was somewhere else. Where was it?

6 A. Your Honours, the DC building was in Kakanj.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Sorry. But General Delic was based in

8 Sarajevo. His main office was in Sarajevo?

9 A. Your Honours, that is correct.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And he would undertake visits to the army, amongst

11 others, to Kakanj, your office, like you say, you don't know how often?

12 A. Your Honours, he would not come to where my office was because my

13 office was on the other side, in another building, but I don't know how

14 frequently he came.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that, but the instructions that you

16 used to receive to send these bulletins to Mr. Delic came from

17 Mr. Jasarevic, isn't it?

18 A. Your Honours, for a while, I was not in charge of this segment of

19 the administration at the Kakanj command post, and I did not receive these

20 directly from Mr. Jasarevic but from my immediate superior, Mr. Refik

21 Cesko, who assigned this task --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me stop you. The letters that were being shown

23 here were drafted in the name of Mr. Jasarevic, am I right, which would

24 say "For immediate action," that you must deliver the bulletins

25 immediately? They came from him?

Page 2448

1 A. Your Honours, that's right.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where was he based?

3 A. Your Honours, General Jasarevic was based at the administration of

4 the Military Security Service in Sarajevo.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, explain this to me. Mr. Jasarevic is in

6 Sarajevo. General Delic is in Sarajevo. Why are these bulletins being

7 sent to Kakanj, to be delivered to General Delic, who is in Sarajevo most

8 of the time?

9 A. Your Honours, the bulletins were sent, and I assume this, to

10 Kakanj, if Mr. Jasarevic knew that he was somewhere outside Sarajevo,

11 probably.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

13 Mr. Menon?

14 MR. MENON: No further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just two questions.

17 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

18 Q. First of all, Witness, you were asked questions about information

19 which pertained to prisoners of war. Would you agree with me that the

20 reports from the corps dispatched daily information every day about large

21 numbers of POWs?

22 A. This was not a frequent occurrence in the reports that I read.

23 Q. But do you agree that it would be alarming, indeed, if it was

24 written in the report that they were maltreated, not the fact in itself

25 that they were captured? Do you agree with me?

Page 2449

1 A. Yes, I do agree with you. If I can amplify on that question.

2 Q. Please do.

3 A. The fact that they were captured was actually a success, and that,

4 per se, was not alarming.

5 Q. Yes. But the fact that they were maltreated, that would be

6 alarming?

7 A. Yes, that would be a special and specific situation.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just another question

9 which stems from your own and Judge Lattanzi's question.

10 Q. Please look at page 94 of Exhibit 377. I'm speaking about

11 documents that were sent to you by Mr. Jasarevic or to Sacir Arnautovic.

12 Take a look at this document. I asked you today to explain

13 cryptographic protection, and the Prosecution showed you a series of

14 documents of this kind which says "Sealed and signed." Am I right?

15 A. You are right.

16 Q. Thank you. Please, tell us, is it not true that none of these

17 documents is actually from Kakanj because it was not transmitted in this

18 cryptographic-protected way, because it is not indicated in any of the

19 document that this is the way in which it was sent, nor do they have a

20 sign or -- a seal or signature? Do you agree that none of these documents

21 came to Kakanj?

22 A. I agree that any of these documents which were addressed to

23 Colonel Sacir with this seal and signature did not come to Kakanj.

24 Q. So any document claimed to have come to Kakanj with a seal and

25 signature could have been an original that could have been filed in

Page 2450

1 Sarajevo; is that right?

2 A. That is right.

3 Q. So you don't know that such a document was ever received in Kakanj

4 because that stems from what you explained about cryptographic protection?

5 A. I would have to consult the filing protocol to know whether they I

6 had it right or not. I cannot tell on the basis of this.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 That concludes my questions, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 That brings us to the conclusion of your testimony, sir. Thank

11 you so much for coming to testify. You are excused and you may now stand

12 down.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry about that.

15 Court adjourned to Monday morning at 9.00 in this court.

16 Court adjourned.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

19 September, 2007 at 9.00 a.m.