Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2987

1 Tuesday, 25 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody this morning.

6 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours. This is

8 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 Today the session will take place pursuant to Rule 15 bis of the

11 Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Judge Harhoff is sitting in Milosevic

12 because they have another witness to lead in that case.

13 Now, I can't say how long he will be away for. It will be for as

14 long as the hearing takes place.

15 Okay. Could we have appearances, please, starting with the

16 Prosecution.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

18 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

19 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner, assisted by our case

20 manager, Alma Imamovic.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 And for the Defence?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

24 morning, our learned friends and everybody in the courtroom and around the

25 courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson representing the Defence

Page 2988

1 of General Delic, assisted by Lejla Gluhic.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 I believe we don't have the witness in court because something is

4 to be raised.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 I -- I rise to my feet in -- out of an abundance of caution. As I

7 was going home last evening, I believe I observed the current witness,

8 Mr. Hasanagic, standing in front of the Peace Palace with Sead Delic, the

9 previous witness. I made some inquiries with VWS this morning, and Sead

10 Delic is, as we speak, being taken to the airport. So in fact he was here

11 last evening. I don't know for certain that I saw the two of them, but I

12 want to put that on the record so that if the Chamber wishes to ask

13 Mr. Hasanagic if he was, in fact, speaking to Mr. Delic last evening or if

14 the Defence would like to raise that issue with the witness, they may do

15 so. But I simply wanted to put that on the record, that I did observe

16 what I believe to be the two of them standing in front of the Peace Palace

17 about 7.00 or a little bit after last evening. And so I just wanted to

18 raise that issue out of an abundance of caution in the event anyone were

19 to suggest that the two witnesses were doing anything improper.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just understand one little point you've

21 made. You say Mr. Sead Delic is on the way to the airport as we speak.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Yes. I -- after I observed -- or what I thought was

23 the two of them last evening, first thing this morning I called victims

24 and Witness section to question them as to when Mr. Delic actually was

25 leaving or had left in the event that I was mistaken. Perhaps he left

Page 2989

1 yesterday. So I made the inquiries with VWS, and they informed me that he

2 was in fact here last night and this morning is -- is being taken to the

3 airport for a flight about 10.30 or 11.00 this morning back to Sarajevo.

4 So it is possible that the two individuals that I observed last evening

5 were in fact Mr. Delic and Mr. Hasanagic.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

7 MR. MUNDIS: And I simply want to put that on the record out of an

8 abundance of caution in the event anyone wishes to question the witness

9 about that. But it did appear to be the two of them. And as I said,

10 Mr. Delic in fact was here last evening. So that -- that might go to the

11 issue of whether the two of them were actually speaking last night.

12 Obviously I don't know about what. I didn't stop and speak to them. I

13 simply continued on my way home.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

15 Madam Vidovic.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I waited

17 for the interpretation to finish.

18 What I imagined how the witness and -- Witnesses Service would be

19 doing is not to put witnesses in the same hotel. This is how I imagined

20 how they did about -- went about it.

21 I would like future witnesses to be warned against discussing this

22 case with anybody, witnesses or others, so that we can avoid such

23 situations in the future. And we will see how the evidence develops, what

24 I'm going to decide to ask him about in my cross-examination.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

Page 2990

1 Just to say -- I -- I appreciate what you said, but I just wonder

2 how careful we can be with this kind of -- these people live in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you know. We -- we don't know what they do when they

4 are together there and -- but I take the point from -- we'll do the best

5 we can from our side and we'll warn the witnesses. Okay? Thank you so

6 much.

7 Okay. Let's -- thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

8 Would you like to call the witness now.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Hasanagic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Just to remind you that

13 yesterday at the beginning of your testimony you've made a declaration to

14 tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but truth. You remember

15 that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are still bound by that declaration to tell the

18 truth even today. Okay?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 Thank you very much.

22 Yes, Mr. Neuner.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examination by Mr. Neuner: [Continued]

Page 2991

1 Q. Good morning, Witness.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. At the beginning, I want to clarify that, as my learned colleague

4 has pointed out, Exhibit 447 and 452 are indeed identical, and I here wish

5 to clarify that Exhibit 447 should be omitted because 452 is the same.

6 And I remember the situation as well, and I believe there was a

7 misunderstanding at the time, and I just wish to show the document now,

8 which I wanted to show earlier.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I interrupt? According to -- oh, okay. You

10 are right.

11 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was looking at the wrong date.

13 MR. NEUNER: If, please, Exhibit P2236 could be shown.

14 Sorry, I don't get the image. Yes.


16 MR. NEUNER: Thank you. If we could please move to the signature

17 first, which is on the second page of the B/C/S. No, it's the third

18 page -- no, it's the second on mine. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Whose signature is this?

22 A. Mine.

23 Q. And do you recognise the document?

24 If you could go back to the first page, please.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2992

1 Q. This is an order for engineering support you're issuing here on

2 the 15th of July, 1995. Could you just explain to the Judges why

3 engineering support is needed.

4 A. Engineering support is necessary to secure movement through the

5 deployment of the troops manning the front line, then to overcome enemy

6 obstacles. Then it is necessary to ensure supply of materiel and

7 evacuation of the wounded, to secure the facilities at those lines that

8 were captured, that were reached; in a word, to secure and provide for

9 movement and manoeuvre of those units going on the attack.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. NEUNER: With this explanation being given, may I ask that the

12 document be admitted into evidence, please.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said it's already admitted.

14 MR. NEUNER: There was a problem. I wanted to show this document

15 yesterday, and instead another document, which turned out to be a

16 duplicate was being shown. And I'm showing this -- after I withdraw the

17 previous document, I'm showing this document now in order to have the

18 right exhibit being admitted into evidence, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That -- okay, I understand that.

20 Just one other point. Now, this document is dated the 15th of

21 July. According to my notes, Exhibit 447, which was PT2236, was dated the

22 28th of July. So also was PT2337, Exhibit 452. Those were dated the

23 same. On -- I beg your pardon. I understand what you are saying. Thank

24 you so much. I'm too slow on the uptake.

25 MR. NEUNER: Okay.

Page 2993

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. I've got it clear. Okay. The

3 document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit

4 number. Will it be given the same exhibit number as 447.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be Exhibit number 447, and

6 the previous 65 ter document, which was P02336, has been withdrawn.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.

8 MR. NEUNER: Thank you. Then I want to turn back to the video

9 which we saw about the training yesterday. I'm referring to Exhibit 441.

10 Q. And, Mr. Hasanagic, the video will not be shown now, but I want to

11 show you a still from this video because you recognised certain persons on

12 the video and we have produced a still overnight.

13 If this could be -- please be placed on the ELMO so that the

14 Defence and the Judges can also see it. Thank you.

15 Could you, first of all, state whom you're seeing here, if you

16 recognise anybody.

17 A. On this photo, this is me; this is Ajman, the interpreter; the

18 Fehim Skulj, commander of the 329th Brigade; and I don't know this person.

19 I'm not sure I saw him on that occasion.

20 Q. Could you --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... You don't

22 know.


24 Q. Which person you don't recognise, please? You said one person you

25 don't recognise.

Page 2994

1 A. This one.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you say he's the -- he's the what of the 329th?


4 Q. Could you for the Judge please clarify who is the person from the

5 329th Mountain Brigade?

6 A. This one, this person.

7 Q. Could you above his head mark a "1", please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Find out his name.


10 Q. Could you mark above this person's head a "1" and state clearly

11 for the record his name.

12 A. This is the commander of the 329th Brigade, Fehim Skulj.

13 Q. And could you mark above the person's head whom you believe to be

14 Ajman, number "2".

15 A. [Marks]. This is the interpreter, Ajman.

16 Q. And could you mark above your own head a number "3", please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. This is me.

20 Q. Thank you. And could you mark a question mark above the person's

21 head whom you don't know.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. NEUNER: Can this please be tendered into evidence.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The photograph is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 2995

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 454.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


5 Q. I want to change the topic now. We talked yesterday about

6 Proljece II. And what I'm interested in is I want to talk about prisoners

7 of war.

8 We talked next to Proljece II about other combat operations,

9 Manevar, Sabur, Proljece, Proljece II. Could you clarify for the Judges,

10 during Operation Manevar, were there any POWs taken by the ABiH?

11 A. During Manevar 94, there were no POWs. No prisoners were taken

12 during Sabur, only then.

13 Q. So no prisoners of war taken during Manevar 94 and Sabur. Were

14 there prisoners of war taken during Proljece operation, which was in May

15 1995?

16 A. No, there were no POWs in Proljece 1995.

17 Q. How was it during Proljece II, which was in July 1995, as you

18 explained to us, were there POWs taken?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many, if you recall?

21 A. I can't remember the number, but I know that there were some

22 prisoners taken.

23 Q. Do you know which unit took the POWs?

24 A. The unit that was there, the El Mujahedin Detachment, together

25 with other units that worked in coordinated action.

Page 2996

1 Q. And do you recall which other units who coordinated with them the

2 action were involved in the taking of POWs?

3 A. The other units did not take prisoners, but 328th Brigade was

4 deployed in the area of where the El Mujahedin Detachment passed through.

5 Q. Okay. So to clarify, the only unit who took POWs, then, was which

6 unit?

7 A. At that occasion, the El Mujahedin Detachment took prisoners.

8 Q. And do you know the fate of these prisoners?

9 A. Ultimately I heard that they were exchanged, all of them, and that

10 they are all safe and sound.

11 Q. I wish to show you document PT2278. You see here on the first

12 page it's from the 27th of July, 1995.

13 And if we could go for the second -- only in the B/C/S to the last

14 page to see the signature. Could you please state who signed this

15 document.

16 A. I signed this. This is a regular report to the 3rd Corps.

17 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in the third page of the B/C/S and the

18 seventh page of the English translation which corresponds. If you look

19 under the heading number 6, "Security situation," could you tell us who is

20 providing information relating to security situation in your report.

21 A. This information has been prepared by the security organ, and it

22 is regulated in the order what the treatment of the POWs is to be. And on

23 the basis of that, he wrote this item in the report, as is stated.

24 Q. Who wrote -- who wrote this item? Who is the security organ

25 you're referring to?

Page 2997

1 A. Well, this is a -- the security organ is an integral part of the

2 division command, and they prepared this item in the report.

3 Q. And do you know who prepared it? If not, I can move on.

4 A. As I said, this was prepared by the security organ within its

5 purview.

6 Q. Okay. In your report, it states here that war prisoners and

7 documents have been captured from the aggressor formations and that these

8 are not forwarded according to the instructions. Could you just explain

9 to the Judges which documents are envisaged or are meant here.

10 A. These are documents captured in the area of disposition of the

11 enemy forces.

12 Q. And which enemy forces? Which army are you referring to here by

13 "enemy forces"?

14 A. Army of the Republika Srpska.

15 Q. And it says that they are not forwarded. What does that mean?

16 What value have documents who need to be forwarded?

17 A. Well, the captured documents contain certain information that may

18 help us to continue with our combat activities, to know about the

19 composition of the enemy forces and everything else that may be contained

20 therein, what are the enemy's ideas, proposals for going forward. These

21 were very important documents for our continued activities.

22 Q. And what is the value of war prisoners?

23 A. The same. It would be possible to find out certain things from

24 them in the area that they occupied.

25 Q. You are informing with your document here the 3rd Corps. Did you

Page 2998

1 get any response from the 3rd Corps in relation to the forwarding of

2 war -- or the non-forwarding of war prisoners and captured documents?

3 A. I can't remember whether I received any response.

4 Q. For clarification, which war -- which unit took the war prisoners

5 and the captured documents here?

6 A. I said a while ago members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

7 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 455.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. NEUNER: I want to move to the next document, PT2284. The

13 previous document was from the 21st of July at 18.30 hours, and we will

14 see the date on this document. It is, as we can see, the next day in the

15 evening, 9.30.

16 If we could please look for a second in the B/C/S only at the

17 signature.

18 Q. Who wrote this signature?

19 A. I did. That's my signature.

20 Q. And if we could go back to page 1, please. And I'm interested in

21 roughly line 8 from the bottom. In the English version, it is page 2, the

22 last paragraph.

23 To help you find the paragraph, I start in English after -- the

24 sentence starts in English: "After interrogating the imprisoned Chetniks

25 and checking their personal documents, it was established that most of the

Page 2999

1 imprisoned Chetniks were from Prnjavor, and that some among them were of

2 Muslim faith."

3 Do you find this?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You're reporting here about imprisoned Chetniks.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What group are you referring to here? Who are the imprisoned

8 Chetniks?

9 A. These were soldiers of the Army of the Republika Srpska who were

10 captured during these combat activities.

11 Q. So are you referring to the same or to a different group? I'm

12 talking about the previous document now. Are we talking about the same

13 group?

14 A. The same group.

15 Q. The group you're reporting about on the 21st of July in the

16 evening already, yeah?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who interrogated them?

19 A. They were supposed to be interrogated at the battalion command

20 first. That's the first command post. And then the brigade command and

21 the division command. I can't tell you who in fact interrogated them, but

22 this was supposed to be the order in which they were supposed to be

23 interrogated.

24 Q. Do you know who provided you with this information which you put

25 in your report?

Page 3000

1 A. This information was provided by the security and intelligence

2 organs.

3 Q. And would you know a name of the security or a name of this

4 intelligence organ?

5 A. The head of the security organ was Fadil Imamovic, and the head of

6 the -- the intelligence organ is Izudin Hajdarhodzic.

7 Q. Could you clarify the name of the security organ, because the

8 interpreters didn't catch it fully.

9 A. Izudin Hajdarhodzic was the head of the intelligence organ.

10 Q. And they both provided this information?

11 A. They wrote it combat activities continued on the 21st and the

12 22nd. They wrote the information under the heading which was their duty

13 to write within the report and then I signed it. I don't remember this

14 specifically.

15 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

17 please be given an exhibit number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 456.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


21 Q. I wish to move to PT2306. I apologise, 2301, PT2301.

22 Could you just look at the signature, please. Who wrote the

23 signature?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. And if we could scroll up in the -- in the B/C/S. I see here in

Page 3001

1 the upper right-hand corner - if we can scroll up, please -

2 "Proljece 95-3." Could you explain what that stands for.

3 A. Proljece II was conducted on the 21st and the 22nd. After we

4 achieved -- or after we were successful, the corps commander received a

5 proposal to let some other units of the corps be involved in the

6 continuation of the action. He redeployed elements of the forces in the

7 area of responsibility of the division to exploit the successes achieved;

8 however, they did not manage to advance any further. The enemy

9 consolidated his forces and pushed us back to the positions we held on the

10 21st, which meant that we had lost all that we managed to achieve on the

11 21st and the 22nd.

12 MR. NEUNER: Could the document please be tendered into evidence.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is this document telling us? Can we just see

14 what it tells us before ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document says that the corps

16 commander decided to redeploy the forces it had on the Sarajevo theatre of

17 war into the area of responsibility of the division in order to exploit

18 the successes achieved. He was together with me at the command post.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted into

20 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 457.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


24 Q. Since you just mentioned the corps commander, can Exhibit PT2306

25 please be shown.

Page 3002

1 You see, it's a document from the 23rd of July, 1995. And if we

2 could go to your signature only in the B/C/S version, please -- sorry, if

3 we could go to the signature. I want to find out who signed it.

4 A. I signed it.

5 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in the second page of the B/C/S;

6 namely, the third hyphen above section number 3. And in English, it's

7 page 3, the second paragraph. It starts with "During the day, the 3rd

8 Corps commander and General Karisik." Do you find it?

9 A. Not yet.

10 Q. Yes. The English is displayed. Can we scroll the English up,

11 please. Yes. It's the second paragraph here. It's the third hyphen

12 above the headline number 3.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you explain --

15 A. I can see it now.

16 Q. Could you explain what happens here?

17 A. I've just told you that when these forces arrived, the corps

18 commander arrived with them. Ultimately, I had all the attacking forces

19 in my area of responsibility, including the corps commander, who was there

20 and who took the command over, so he was in command.

21 Q. Thank you. And could you say from which level of the army General

22 Karisik is?

23 A. I think he was from the General Staff of the BH army, but believe

24 me when I tell you that I don't know which position he held.

25 Q. How long did the two gentlemen stay at Klek command post?

Page 3003

1 A. I think the corps commander stayed there longer, but I wouldn't be

2 able to tell you how long. The combat activities were ongoing and all my

3 attentions were focused on that.

4 Q. How long did General Karisik stay?

5 A. I've just told you that I wouldn't be able to say; for the same

6 reason, that I was focused on the combat activities. I just met up with

7 them. We discussed the situation, and I went back to the attacking forces

8 to direct them.

9 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 458.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MR. NEUNER: I'm interested in PT2312. Can this please be shown.

15 Q. We just saw it's a document from the 24th of July, 1995.

16 MR. NEUNER: Could only in the B/C/S please the signature on the

17 last page be -- be shown.

18 Q. Who signed this?

19 A. I did.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the English be centralised so that we can

21 read, please.

22 MR. NEUNER: I want to have the fourth page in the -- of the

23 English please be displayed. The last paragraph.

24 THE WITNESS: I didn't see whether this was a report or a piece of

25 information, a brief.

Page 3004

1 Can we have page 1, please.

2 MR. NEUNER: Can we have the first page for the witness shown,

3 please, in B/C/S. The English can stay as it is.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, we'd like also to see what it is all about.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's a brief on the combat

6 activities in the area of the 35th Division. Thank you.

7 MR. NEUNER: Could we now move to -- B/C/S to the second page; and

8 English, to the fourth page. And in B/C/S, which is being displayed now,

9 I'm interested in the third paragraph above section 2. And in English, it

10 is the fourth page, the last paragraph.

11 Q. It starts, for you, Mr. Hasanagic, with [B/C/S spoken]. Do you

12 find this line?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yes. It says here, if I quote correctly: "Eleven members of the

15 work platoons of Muslim nationality were captured as well as 12 Chetniks."

16 Do you find that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What I'm interested in, about which group of prisoners are we

19 talking about? This is a --

20 A. This is a brief for the corps commander. Since Proljece II, on

21 the 21st and 22nd and 23rd, when it was ongoing, the corps commander was

22 present in the Sarajevo theatre of war. Later on I was requested to

23 provide information about what had happened. Among other things, we wrote

24 that 11 members of work platoons, detailed platoons, were captured. These

25 were Muslims who were part of the Prnjavor Brigade. They were brought

Page 3005

1 over from Prnjavor to dig trenches, to make fortifications along their

2 lines, and to be at their service.

3 This time we also have the number of soldiers of the VRS who were

4 captured, as well as the assets that were captured in that action.

5 Q. And who captured these soldiers, the 12 Chetniks? Which unit?

6 A. As I've already said, the El Mujahedin Detachment.

7 Q. For clarification, you are reporting for the third time about the

8 same group of captured.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Before we do that, can I

12 just -- sorry. Before we do that, can I just get clarity.

13 Witness, you're saying that those 12 Chetniks belonged to which --

14 to the VRS, isn't that so?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the 11 members of work platoons who were of

17 Muslim origin were to what army did they belong?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were forcibly conscripted by

19 the Army of the Republika Srpska. They were forcibly mobilised and were

20 taken from Prnjavor to Ozren in order to dig trenches and to carry out any

21 other activities they were ordered to carry.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you. The document is admitted into

23 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 459.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 3006


2 Q. I want to show you document PT2356. You can see here it's a

3 document from the 2nd of August, 1995. And I want, only for the B/C/S

4 version on the screen that the signature on the last page is being shown.

5 And who signed the signature is my question. Or who made the

6 signature?

7 A. That's my signature. I signed it.

8 Q. And the handwriting?

9 A. I wrote: "Take measures against commanding officers" -- or

10 rather, "senior officers and commanders." I don't recall what this was

11 about. In other words, I ordered that measures be taken to -- against

12 senior officers and commands -- or actually, it doesn't say "commanders"

13 but "ring leaders."

14 Q. Okay. I want to draw your attention to page 2 of the B/C/S, which

15 is page 4 in the English version, the last paragraph of the English

16 version there. And I'm interested in section 3(c) of your document.

17 A. Yes. "Factories positively impacting on combat morale. The

18 commander of the 35th Division, President of the Presidency, Izetbegovic,

19 the commander of the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Rasim

20 Delic; and the commander of the 3rd Corps, Sakib Mahmuljin."

21 Q. It says here that they visited the command of the 35th Division.

22 Could you explain what happened during this visit.

23 A. First the visit took place at the local municipal authorities of

24 Zavidovici, and I was there and together with the representatives of the

25 Zavidovici municipality, I received the commanders. I spent a short

Page 3007

1 period of time there and went back to the division command. I reported to

2 the President. We entered one of the offices where we sat at a table. I

3 presented the situation in the division to the commanders there briefly.

4 The army commander was making notes. I don't know how long the meeting

5 lasted. Maybe some 30 to 40 minutes. I can't be more specific than that.

6 Soon thereafter I went out of the office, leaving them in the

7 office -- leaving them behind in the office on their own.

8 Q. And what happened then?

9 A. From my duty officers, I found out later on, as I spoke to them in

10 one of the corridors, that some Mujahedin had passed through there. What

11 sort of conversations took place, I don't know.

12 Q. Okay. First I want to clarify. You said you left them in the

13 office. Who -- who was left behind when you left the office?

14 A. President Izetbegovic and the commanders.

15 Q. Which commanders? Please name them.

16 A. The republic's army commander, Rasim Delic; and Sakib Mahmuljin.

17 Q. And they were in which office?

18 A. One of the offices next to mine. I can't recall exactly which one

19 it was.

20 Q. And then you said that your duty officers told you that some

21 Mujahedin had passed through there. Can you explain what you mean by

22 "some Mujahedin."

23 A. You know how it is. The soldiers who were around just said to me,

24 "Some Mujahedin passed by." They didn't know anything else, and I didn't

25 inquire any further.

Page 3008

1 Q. And "some Mujahedin," are you referring to a unit here by saying

2 "some Mujahedin"? Could you just clarify.

3 A. Since I went there to prepare the division command for reporting,

4 I presumed them to have been members of the Mujahedin detachment.

5 Q. The El Mujahedin Detachment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you stated they -- your soldiers or duty officers told you

8 they passed by. What do you mean or what did they mean at the time by

9 "passing by"?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I find this

12 quite interesting. How should the witness know what these persons thought

13 as they were saying these things? This is calling for speculation, quite

14 a -- obviously.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

16 MR. NEUNER: I'll rephrase the question.

17 Q. What did you mean when you stated a moment ago "they passed by"?

18 A. I don't know what to tell you. Quite simply, that they went past.

19 They passed by. I don't know what you want me to say. I don't

20 understand.

21 Q. Did -- did you get any indication of the movement from your duty

22 officer, of the movement of the -- sorry, I'll rephrase.

23 Did you get any indication of the movement of the El Mujahedin

24 Detachment members by your duty officers? In which direction they moved?

25 A. No. No. There was a corridor there and the -- from the

Page 3009

1 corridor -- along the corridor you had the offices there.

2 Q. And where were the Mujahedin -- El Mujahedin Detachment members

3 seen in relation to the corridor?

4 A. I can't tell you. They were seen in the corridor.

5 Q. Did you yourself see anybody?

6 A. I said I saw Ajman there, but that was before the President and

7 the commanders arrived.

8 Q. And where did you see Ajman?

9 A. In front of the division command.

10 Q. And the meeting we are -- okay. How many -- how much time before

11 the President and Delic and -- Rasim Delic and Mahmuljin approved? How

12 much time before did you see Ajman at the command post of the 35th

13 Division?

14 A. When I arrived there from the municipality to prepare the command

15 for the report to the President and commander, I can't specify the time.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]


18 Q. Did you see Rasim Delic later that day again?

19 A. They didn't go out in the field after that, so as a host I sent

20 them on their way.

21 Q. So you saw him again. Did Mr. Delic mention anything to you?

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. Did Mr. -- did you see Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Mahmuljin that day

24 again?

25 A. Yes. They departed from the division command together.

Page 3010

1 Q. Together with whom?

2 A. The President and the commanders went with him.

3 Q. You say "with him." Who was "him"?

4 A. President Izetbegovic was the most senior person, and they

5 accompanied him. It's only logical.

6 Q. So Mr. Mahmuljin, Mr. Delic, and Mr. Izetbegovic departed

7 together. And in which direction; do you know? Where were they going to?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 MR. NEUNER: I wish to have the document tendered into evidence,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

12 please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 460.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


16 Q. I wish to move to a completely different topic, operation -- the

17 September operation, September 1995 operation.

18 I wish to show document PT2452 to you. Have you ever seen this

19 document?

20 A. I did not.

21 Q. Okay. If you could go to the second page of the B/C/S, please, to

22 look at the date, which is the 25th of August, 1995. And move to the

23 third-last page in the B/C/S for a moment to look at the signature. Who

24 signed?

25 A. I signed this. This is my signature.

Page 3011

1 Q. Could you, if we move back to the first page for a moment, explain

2 what this document is about.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought the witness says he's never seen this

4 document, even though he claims he signed it.

5 Are you able to explain the contents of this document, sir?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What do you --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw the front page, the

9 cover page that was shown a minute ago. Not this one but the one that

10 says "Order."

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. NEUNER: Okay. Then I confine myself to this page. The second

13 page now.

14 Q. Could you explain, first of all, what in the upper right --

15 A. 5-8 -- I apologise. Let us go to the front or the cover page,

16 please. This first page has not been signed by corps commander. I don't

17 think this is my original order. This order was produced on several

18 occasions. The original order is signed by the corps commander and by me

19 and it bears stamps on each page, and that is the original order.

20 Why was it produced on several occasions? Because the documents

21 that kept coming and going had to be amended and a document is valid only

22 when it is signed by the corps commander or when he approves that

23 document. I -- there is no such approval on this page, and I'm not sure

24 whether the contents are the right contents, because there is no rubber

25 stamp on each page.

Page 3012

1 This was done precisely for the reason that there were several

2 copies or variations of this order.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: So do I understand you to be talking about this

4 page that you say you had never seen? Because the rest of the document

5 you signed.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 You may proceed, sir.


10 Q. Could you explain what "F-95" --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: He doesn't know this one. Go to the pages that he

12 knows. He says this first page he doesn't know. He doesn't -- doesn't

13 got a stamp -- it hasn't got his signature. It hasn't got the 3rd Corps

14 stamp.

15 MR. NEUNER: Okay. We are going --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is the contents of the document that is ...

17 MR. NEUNER: I take Your Honour's suggestion on board.

18 Could we go to page 2, please, in B/C/S and English.

19 Q. Could you explain what on the upper right-hand side "F-95" stands

20 for?

21 A. The name of the September operation is Farz 95, and this is the

22 abbreviated version, "F-95."

23 Q. Farz 95 or F-95 relates to which operation?

24 A. The Vozuca operation, in September.

25 Q. Thank you. You said earlier at some point in time Sakib Mahmuljin

Page 3013

1 signed the first page. Could you explain a little bit the process leading

2 to Sakib Mahmuljin finally signing the first page.

3 A. The idea for the liberation of Vozuca was long in coming. As I

4 said, we had undertaken some actions to get as close to Vozuca as

5 possible. The key objective of the Vozuca operation was the Paljenik

6 feature. We had attempted to resolve that matter on four or five

7 occasions previously, and at one of the meetings at corps command we

8 discussed how should we go about resolving the issue of the Vozuca and how

9 we should go about resolving the issue of the Ribnica-Zavidovici road.

10 The commander came up with this idea and said that all corps units

11 are going to take part in this operation. That operation was in the area

12 of responsibility of the 35th Division, and that this operation would be

13 undertaken in corporation with the 2nd Corps. And that was the start of

14 the planning and preparation process for this operation; meaning the

15 preparation of documents, the preparation of facilities, roads for supply

16 and evacuation, training, and everything that is understood by the term

17 "preparation." Until the combat operations, this is a process. It is not

18 a static thing. It doesn't take one day.

19 All commanders received the basic idea of the corps commander

20 underpinning this operation. At subsequent meetings, we elaborated about

21 how we should resolve all the outstanding issues, that we agreed all

22 subordinated commanders together with the corps commander, we agreed that

23 Podsijelovo facility or Podsijelovo feature was the key to the operation.

24 And the commander on that occasion said to all of us that the El Mujahedin

25 Detachment is going to attack the Paljenik feature to try to resolve the

Page 3014

1 matter of the Paljenik feature, given what had been going on around that

2 feature in -- previously.

3 Q. Can I interrupt you. You said a moment ago "the commander said on

4 that occasion." To which commander? Can you name the commander? To

5 which commander are you referring to?

6 A. The corps commander, Sakib Mahmuljin.

7 Q. And you're referring obviously to meetings. Could you say how

8 many times you met the corps commander or his staff until you finally put

9 the signature below the document in front of you.

10 A. It's difficult to remember on how many occasions. Maybe two or

11 three times with the commander, then two or three times with his staff,

12 his assistants, branch commanders, logistics. On several occasions.

13 Because this was a significant operation and that operation was planned

14 and controlled and managed by the corps.

15 MR. NEUNER: Before the break, can I have -- can I tender this

16 document into evidence, please.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 461.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 Is that a convenient time? Thank you very much. We'll take a

22 break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

23 Court adjourned.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

Page 3015

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

2 MR. NEUNER: If we could please go for one second back to Exhibit

3 461, which was shown before the break, and to the second-last page in the

4 B/C/S only. Thank you.

5 Q. Could you just explain -- it's unfortunately divided into two

6 pieces. And I will show the second part in a second. Could you just

7 explain what this part of the map which is attached to your order, what

8 this is about.

9 A. This is an integral part of the order to attack and the decision

10 of the commander on the map, that is also approved by the corps commander

11 in the upper left-hand corner and signed by me in the lower right-hand

12 corner, and it depicts the order of the commander as specified in a

13 textual form in the order.

14 Q. Thank you. And we see here on the first page the abbreviation in

15 the middle: "Sa od ol m." Could you just explain what this abbreviation

16 stands for?

17 A. "Together with the El Mujahedin Detachment."

18 Q. Thank you. And then it says: "E 2 mnb." What does this stand

19 for?

20 A. And the 2nd Manoeuvre Battalion. Here I must say that this part,

21 where it says "joined forces," my task within the Farz operation is a

22 decisive defence of all lines within the area of responsibility of the

23 35th Division to engage part of my forces in the attack and to take over

24 the lines captured during combat activities.

25 So as soon as a feature is captured, my forces would advance to

Page 3016

1 take possession of such positions and the El Mujahedin Detachment and the

2 2nd Manoeuvre Battalion form the composition of the 3rd Corps, and they

3 were attached to the area of responsibility of the 35th Division. For

4 this operation, I did not have an order for re-subordination of the

5 El Mujahedin Detachment, or at least I cannot recall one.

6 Q. Thank you. So if they were not detached to you, who was

7 commanding the ordered El Mujahedin for this operation?

8 A. In the corps commander's order, it was said that the forces -- the

9 joint forces of the division will be strengthened by the El Mujahedin

10 Detachment.

11 Q. So who is commanding the El Mujahedin Detachment in this

12 operation?

13 A. The corps has laid down this mission, and later on when the

14 operation started, we will see that the reporting line goes back to the

15 corps commander, and he is carrying out this mission in my area of

16 responsibility. So this is a moot point.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just get clarification. Do I understand

18 you, sir, to say that the El Mujahedin Detachment was re-subordinated to

19 your division for each operation? It was not just re-subordinated and

20 made part of your division. It had to be re-subordinated for every time

21 you have to go for a -- for an operation? Is that what you are saying?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. They were not part of the

23 composition of the 35th Division. It was part of the composition of the

24 3rd Corps, but they were re-subordinated to me for certain combat

25 operations.

Page 3017

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'd like to see that re-subordination order at some

2 stage before the witness goes.


4 Q. I understood the witness to say that for this operation, Farz, you

5 had not received such a re-subordination order. Could you just clarify

6 for -- for Your Honour.

7 A. The order that I received on the 2nd of July for Proljece II

8 Operation, where the commander said that the detachment were to be

9 re-subordinated to the 35th Division and listed the missions for the

10 detachment, that document that we saw yesterday, such an order was not

11 received by me for the Farz operation, or at least I did not see one. It

12 has not reached me.

13 Q. Thank you. If we look at the upper left-hand corner where it says

14 "Sakib Mahmuljin," you mentioned earlier that you obtained a signature on

15 such a map from him. If you look carefully --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the

17 microphone.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the map had to be signed, as

19 well as the order.

20 THE INTERPRETER: And interpreter's correction: It was the 2nd

21 of June order, not 2nd of July. Sorry.


23 Q. So before the operation started, Mr. Mahmuljin had signed this

24 map?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3018

1 Q. If we can move to the last page of this document, the lower part

2 of the map.

3 If you look at the signature below there, who signed on the

4 upper -- lower right-hand corner?

5 A. I signed this. Such a document must be signed by me and sent to

6 the corps command.

7 Q. Thank you. I want to show you document PT2429 now.

8 You see the document is from the 23rd of August, 1995, and it

9 says: "Order for communications 4."

10 In the upper right-hand corner, an "F" is mentioned. Could you

11 explain what the "F" is standing for.

12 A. It was supposed to state "F- 95." The "F" is short for the Farz

13 operation or the Vozuca operation.

14 Q. So am I right in saying that this order for communication relates

15 to Operation Farz?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And could you explain what is the purpose of such an order for

18 communication.

19 A. First I'd like to see the signature. This order is supposed to be

20 prepared by the chief of staff, and he's supposed to sign it. But first I

21 will have to see the signature.

22 Q. Could we look at the last page, please, on the B/C/S only.

23 Yeah, I believe we have seen this document during our meetings and

24 we saw that it was not signed. So I think this is unsigned, as you can

25 see. Or can you direct me?

Page 3019

1 A. This is a chief of staff's document, and he's responsible for the

2 establishment and functioning of communications.

3 Q. We can actually go to the fifth page of the B/C/S, please. In the

4 English, this page 10. Could you scroll down there. Yes, thank you.

5 You see it's type signed and it says "Nesad Sabic." Who is Nesad

6 Sabic?

7 A. Nesad Sabic is the chief of staff of the division. And given this

8 is a branch order, it has to be signed by the chief of communication as

9 the highest officer in communications, and that was Captain Herceg in this

10 case.

11 Q. What is the importance of communications during combat operation?

12 A. It is one of an important elements. A key element is to have

13 communications during carrying out of combat activities. And this

14 document lists the command post, the forward command post, and the manner

15 in which communications are to be maintained.

16 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 462.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


22 Q. Can we move to PT2438 now, the document from the 25th of August,

23 1995. And it says here: "Record of delivery of an order to attack with

24 attachments."

25 And we see here under number 1: "Order to attack." What order to

Page 3020

1 attack is meant?

2 A. This is the basic combat document for the carrying out of combat

3 operations. It regulates all the steps and procedures that the

4 subordinates must adhere to during combat activities. The basic elements

5 are the enemy, our forces, neighbouring forces, the decision, specific

6 missions, and the conduct of all engaged in combat activities, including

7 logistics and supplies, and, of course, command and communications.

8 Q. Am I right in saying this is a kind of --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we scroll down the English a little bit,

10 please. Thank you very much.

11 MR. NEUNER: It's under number 1, "Order to attack," the witness

12 has just explained.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. We wanted to see the order to attack. Carry

14 on.


16 Q. So if we see -- on the English, move to page 2, under number 4 -

17 if you can scroll down - I'm sorry, under number 8, "Communications plan."

18 Was this the communication plan we just saw?

19 A. Whether this was specifically --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam -- Madam Vidovic.

21 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours --

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while the Prosecutor

23 was asking questions about this other document, we were engaged in

24 analysing the PT2429 document. This is the first time we see it. It was

25 not included in a list. We received two lists. And that document,

Page 3021

1 PT2429, was on neither list, so it is very difficult for us to follow what

2 is being testified to.

3 MR. NEUNER: I can make an explanation. The witness has mentioned

4 "communication" during the proofing sessions, and in the course of this

5 session the document before was shown to the witness, and I have informed

6 you via -- e-mail - I believe it was on Saturday - about the fact that

7 this is a new document, because the witness wanted to refer to it. And I

8 stated also the PT number. I even attached the English translation of the

9 document, thereby informing you about my intention to show this document

10 today.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please tell me at what time

12 I was supposed to receive the e-mail message?

13 MR. NEUNER: I will in the break make a printout of the e-mail and

14 we can discuss it further.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. NEUNER: I apologise for any inconvenience.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

18 Thank you, Mr. Neuner. You may proceed.


20 Q. If you look at the upper right-hand corner, there are the

21 abbreviation "EL-M." Can you explain what is meant by this.

22 A. This is short for "El Mujahedin." The title of the detachment is

23 not contained here, and obviously the -- the operative concern wrote it

24 this way. I don't recall the document.

25 Q. What is meant by the upper right-hand corner here, "Komandi:

Page 3022

1 EL-M"? Meaning, is this the addressee? Is this the sender? Is this...?

2 Can you just explain?

3 A. We discussed documents yesterday, and we said that once an

4 approval is received, the documents are sent to all the units

5 participating in that given activity. I'm not sure whether this document

6 is signed as well; however, a document similar to this one should have

7 been handed over to the El Mujahedin Detachment.

8 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document be admitted into

9 evidence.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Does this mean that this -- this is a command to

11 the El Mujahedin to carry out what is in the document, or what does it

12 mean? What's the purpose -- what does -- what's the meaning of this

13 "Komandi EL-M"? Is that an order to them to do something or what is it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To have the documents listed further

15 below delivered to them. The whole set of documents.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

18 exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 463.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. NEUNER: And while the document is being admitted, we have

22 just found the e-mail. It was sent on the 22nd of September in the

23 afternoon at 2 hours, 19 minutes, for my learned colleagues -- in the

24 afternoon at -- I am informing there about the PT number of the document

25 and I'm attaching also the English translation of it. Thank you.

Page 3023

1 I want to move to the next document --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, your learned friend is on her feet.

3 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies for

5 interrupting the proceedings. I do believe that the Prosecution ought to

6 deliver documents in a timely fashion. From what I gather, the document

7 was sent to us over the weekend, and I did not have occasion to look at

8 the document, as I was busy preparing myself on the basis of others. As

9 far as I know, the Prosecution has the duty to give us documents two days

10 ahead. We received these two lists with all the documents there.

11 Obviously the Prosecution sent this additional document over the weekend,

12 and I did not have occasion to look through it.

13 At any rate, I apologise.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Madam Vidovic, if you say as far as you know,

15 the Prosecution has the duty to give you documents two days ahead, today

16 is the 25th and it was sent on the 22nd. That's three days ahead. Have

17 they not complied with their duty? As you explained --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, they have. I apologise,

19 Your Honours. I only stated that I failed to see the document. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

23 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that -- sorry. I'm a little bit confused.

24 Because the document just shown now admitted? Yes, it was. I apologise.

25 I want to move on to the next document, PT2438. Sorry, we just

Page 3024

1 had it.

2 2527, PT2527.

3 Q. This is a document, we see, from the 6th of September, 1995,

4 entitled "Deployment Rota for the Commanding Officers of the 35th

5 Division."

6 If we could go to the last page in B/C/S so that the witness can

7 see the signature.

8 Who signed?

9 A. I signed it.

10 Q. If we go back to the first page -- sorry -- yeah, the first page

11 in B/C/S; in English, page 2. In the first paragraph here, an IKM of the

12 35th Division Babilon is mentioned. Could you explain where that IKM was.

13 A. This document is the deployment rota of commanding officers during

14 combat involving several command posts: The forward command post of

15 Babilon was 12 kilometre away from Zavidovici along the road leading to

16 Vozuca, Hajdarovici [phoen], and the witness mentioned another locality.

17 This is a large intersection of dirt roads. It is in the immediate

18 vicinity of -- or rather, in the direction of the Paljenik feature.

19 Q. And can you explain -- it says, under number 1, the "commander."

20 Who is meant by the "commander"?

21 A. I was there at the Babilon IKM, and the command -- or rather, the

22 combat group that was there with me -- in other words, there was this

23 combat group with all the additional services and branches there with me

24 at IKM Babilon.

25 Q. So you and others are manning the IKM Babilon. When were you

Page 3025

1 manning the IKM Babilon? When did you begin to man it?

2 A. I believe it was on the 8th or the 9th -- no, I believe it was the

3 9th of September, one day ahead of the start of Operation Vozuca.

4 Previously, for several days the operations officers and others were

5 preparing the IKM, trying to make it operational with the communications

6 systems and everything.

7 Q. How long did you stay at that IKM following the 9th of September?

8 A. On the first day of the operation, I was present at this IKM. On

9 the second day of the operation, while it was ongoing, I frequently left

10 the IKM in the direction of the area where our units were active. I would

11 then go back there.

12 It's hard to say whether it was one, two, or three days, because

13 as the combat activities were moving northwards, I followed suit by

14 setting up IKMs in that direction in order to be able to have a view of

15 fighting and to be able to direct it.

16 My position was - and this is something my subordinates knew and

17 were aware of - as soon as combat activities started, they had to be

18 deployed at one of the locations designated in order to continue with the

19 combat activities and to be successful in that.

20 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit 464.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


Page 3026

1 Q. Moving on to PT2536. The previous document was from the 6th of

2 September, and now we see a document from the 7th of September, 1995.

3 Who signed it?

4 A. I signed it.

5 Q. And it says: "Supplement to order for attack of the 35th Division

6 commander."

7 I'm interested in the first line of the document, which

8 states: "Pursuant to an assessment of the situation and an agreement with

9 the commands of the El Mujahedin Detachment and the 3rd Manoeuvre

10 Battalion for the execution of a task under the F-95 plan."

11 The F-95 plan is the Farz plan, as we discussed; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you explain who was entering into the agreement which is

14 mentioned in the first line.

15 A. This document tells us that the two neighbouring units, the

16 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion and the El Mujahedin Detachment, agreed on the

17 best way to carry out combat activities. Since they were adjacent units,

18 neighbouring units, they agreed upon it and I drafted this order, since

19 the 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion belonged to my composition. The 3rd Manoeuvre

20 Battalion went along the Krivaja River Canyon, which was in the direction

21 of the Paljenik feature, and it was only logical for it to move that way.

22 Q. And what did the El Mujahedin Detachment do on the day of the

23 operation? Which attack line was the El Mujahedin Detachment on?

24 A. Popov Osoje and Paljenik. Pod Palje [phoen] and Paljenik.

25 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

Page 3027

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

2 please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 465.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


6 Q. I want to move to Exhibit 394, and I'm particular interested in

7 entry number 6, which relates to the 9th of September; namely, at 20.40

8 hours.

9 In English it's, I believe, page 6 -- excuse me, page 2. And in

10 B/C/S, the second page. This is an operations -- operations diary of the

11 3rd Corps. And if you look at entry number 6 --

12 A. I haven't seen this document. This document is kept by the corps

13 command.

14 Q. Thank you for this explanation.

15 A. And the document is ...

16 Q. Please go ahead with your explanation.

17 A. The document is a record of brief orders issued by the corps

18 commander. Everything that goes on during combat activities which is of

19 significance will be registered in the diary. This is a very important

20 document.

21 Q. If you look at entry number 6, it says: "The commander of the

22 35th Division informed the commander of the 3rd Corps that everything was

23 going according to plan."

24 Where -- first of all, do you recognise informing Mr. Mahmuljin at

25 8.15 in the evening on the 9th of September, 1995.

Page 3028

1 A. When I set up my IKM ahead of combat activities, I had to inform

2 the commander that I had set up an IKM, that I was there, and that we can

3 have smooth future communications from there.

4 Q. Okay. So you were at IKM Babilon at this moment when you're

5 informing him?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the last two questions

9 were leading questions. In particular, the latter one. Can my learned

10 friend from the Prosecution please refrain from putting leading questions.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. --

12 MR. NEUNER: We have explained with the previous document, which

13 stated "IKM Babilion," and I was asking the witness where he was when he

14 moved into IKM Babilon, and he said he moved into IKM Babilon on the 9th

15 of September. And this entry here is from the 9th of September in the

16 evening. So in a way I was leading - I agree with my learned colleague -

17 on the other hand side, I picked up on what the witness had said earlier.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness stated

19 that the IKM was located at Babilon and that he was there on that day.

20 This, however, does not mean that he was stationary and unable to go

21 elsewhere. The witness has just explained what his movements were and

22 what the movements of the forces participating in the activities were.

23 The witness said that he was at the IKM and that he moved along with the

24 movement of the forces. That's why I believed the question was a leading

25 one.

Page 3029

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I -- I hear what you say, Madam Vidovic. But if

2 you look at the question before that one, he -- when he's being asked

3 whether he remembered making a report to Mr. Mahmuljin at 8.15 on the 9th

4 of September, he says: "When I set up my IKM ahead of combat activities,

5 I had to inform the commander that I had set up my IKM."

6 So, now, the IKM that he had just set up is the Babilon IKM. So

7 the next question was: Was it -- is it Babilon where you were? I

8 understand the formulation was leading, but the point had been -- had been

9 established.

10 Would you agree? Thank you very much, madam.

11 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

12 Q. Where was Mr. Mahmuljin when you informed him in this remark

13 number 6 --

14 A. The IKM of the 3rd Corps was at Luke, 17 kilometres away from

15 Zavidovici in the Kamenica area.

16 Q. Okay. I want to move to the next entry. 45 minutes later, entry

17 number 7 says: "The commander of the El Mujahid and Ajman had a meeting

18 with the 3rd Corps commander at the 3rd Corps IKM-1."

19 My question is: Where were you when that meeting just described

20 here was taking place?

21 A. I wasn't aware of the meeting. I don't know if it indeed took

22 place. I was -- I was at the Babilon IKM. This is the first time I hear

23 of it.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just get clarification. You've just told

Page 3030

1 us that Mr. Mahmuljin was at the IKM of the 3rd Corps at Luke, 17

2 kilometres away from Zavidovici in the Kamenica area.

3 Now, this IKM-1 that is on the entry - dash 1 - is it -- is it

4 different from the IKM of the 3rd Corps? Is it another IKM or is it the

5 same thing?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Neuner.

9 MR. NEUNER: Yes. If we could please move to entry number 40.

10 It's page 7 of the English translation and 6 of the B/C/S translation.

11 Yes.

12 It says here: "The 35th Division commander informed the 3rd Corps

13 commander of the combat activities so far."

14 Can you confirm?

15 A. Yes. When I received information about what had transpired up to

16 that point, at 9.49 I informed the -- the commander about what I had

17 learned and about what had transpired in the activities so far. That's

18 part of the regular reporting.

19 Q. What day are you informing him here?

20 A. That was on the 10th of September.

21 Q. When did the operation start?

22 A. The operation started on the morning of the 10th of September.

23 Q. So you were reporting at 11 minutes to 10.00 when the operation

24 has started to Mr. Mahmuljin. Could you tell me, who was in charge of

25 Operation Farz?

Page 3031

1 A. The corps commander was in charge of the Operation Farz.

2 Q. Mr. Mahmuljin?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And why are you reporting back to him?

5 A. Because he was in command of the entire operation. I only had a

6 fraction of that mission, and I said at the outset what that was.

7 Q. If we look at entry number 55. In English, it's page 10. I think

8 it's page 9 - yeah - in B/C/S.

9 It the says here: "The 3rd Corps commander ordered the 35th

10 Division commander that the 3rd Manbat is going along the road of the

11 village Stog and further for mopping up."

12 Can you confirm that you received that order?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. Can the

14 Prosecutor ask the witness whether he issued the order, whether he

15 informed. The Prosecutor consistently reads a portion of the text and

16 then asks the witness whether he can confirm what was read.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not sure what you mean by "ask the witness

18 whether he issued the order, whether he informed." Informed who about

19 what?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What I meant, Your Honour, was that

21 the Prosecutor has been reading parts of the text in -- for the witness

22 instead of putting questions to him in relation to the contents of the

23 diary.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

25 MR. NEUNER: I was asking whether he received the order. The

Page 3032

1 entry says that the 3rd Corps commander ordered. I can rephrase the

2 question and ask the witness, having seen --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The objection is you do the reading of the text in

4 the entry.

5 MR. NEUNER: Okay.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Instead of putting your question to the witness.

7 That's the objection. Do you have any response to that one?

8 MR. NEUNER: I'll stop doing this for the future will just ask the

9 witness, now I have read it out, I will just ask the witness whether he

10 can comment upon the entry.



13 Q. Can you please comment upon the entry, Witness.

14 A. I don't recall this period of time or this order. It's quite

15 difficult for me to remember this now.

16 Q. Okay. Do you recall in general having received orders on the 10th

17 of September from Mr. Mahmuljin?

18 A. We weren't much in touch on the 10th of September.

19 Q. When did you meet Mr. Mahmuljin, if at all, in this time period?

20 A. I think this was just a meeting, an encounter by chance along the

21 road. And at 10.00 in the evening we had a meeting, a coordination

22 meeting.

23 Q. And where was this coordination meeting?

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a -- wait a minute. I'm getting confused now.

25 He's talking about 10.00 in the evening. This entry number 55 is at

Page 3033

1 15.50.

2 MR. NEUNER: Yeah. The witness has said he doesn't recall this

3 entry, and I was inquiring in general when in this time period of the 10th

4 of September he has met, if at all, Mr. Mahmuljin. He said at 10.00 in

5 the evening.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I cannot -- I can understand him not recalling

7 this entry, because he's told us -- just -- just a second.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. Because he has told us that this

10 document is not his document. It was kept by the 3rd Corps, where they

11 noted reports that they got. So he would not remember this entry. But he

12 should either be able to remember the incident.

13 MR. NEUNER: And he said he doesn't.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Has he been asked about the incident or about the

15 entry?

16 MR. NEUNER: I've --

17 Q. Can I -- okay. I will move -- I believe it was clarified, but I

18 will try to do that.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: My problem is -- my problem is -- okay. Can you

20 reconcile an entry of 15.50 with a meeting of 10.00 in the evening in your

21 questions to him?

22 MR. NEUNER: The witness has told that he doesn't recall receiving

23 the order, as is stated here, now, after these many years. And then I was

24 asking a second question, whether he generally recalled having met

25 Mr. Mahmuljin.

Page 3034

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry.

2 MR. NEUNER: And I understood him to say he met on the road --

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry.

4 MR. NEUNER: Somewhere and later in the evening at around 10.00.

5 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, have I summarised that correctly? Because I don't

6 wish to testify.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I apologise.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I had an encounter with him

9 twice.

10 Now, as for that meeting on the 10th, I'm not sure if it was at

11 10.00 or at 11.00 in the evening. I'm not sure about the time.


13 Q. Where was the meeting with Mr. Mahmuljin at 10.00 or 11.00 in the

14 evening on the 10th of September?

15 A. At the Babilon IKM.

16 Q. What was discussed?

17 A. We made a brief analysis of what had been done on the 10th. We

18 conducted coordination. We spoke of the lines that were reached.

19 My task was to take possession of the lines reached, and the

20 commander issued orders and tasks to others too. These were brief tasks

21 in relation to the combat activities to take place the following day.

22 Q. Who were the others who were present with you and Mr. Mahmuljin at

23 this meeting?

24 A. Commanders of the manoeuvre battalions, the commanders of my

25 brigades, and some people from my division who were at the IKM.

Page 3035

1 Q. I wish to show you PT2552. And I wish to highlight the time of

2 this order. It is at midnight on the 10th of September, 1995.

3 MR. NEUNER: If we could scroll down the B/C/S so that the witness

4 can see the signature.

5 Q. Who signed it?

6 A. I signed it.

7 Q. So you told us there was a meeting on -- at 10.00 or 11.00 in the

8 evening, and at midnight you're issuing this order. Do I capture that

9 correctly?

10 A. Well, I said at 10.00 or 11.00 in the evening, and after that,

11 after the commander had left, he had ordered me to draft this order and

12 send it to the units.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Could you scroll down the English, please.

14 Let's see what's the order about.


16 Q. I will discuss a few portions of it. If we look at number 4.

17 It's in English on page 2. It relates to the 5th Battalion of the 328th

18 Brigade.

19 So they -- the 5th Battalion should be kept at the earlier line of

20 defence. And then can you explain what you're saying here? "Until the

21 sweeping of the terrain is completed." What does "sweeping of terrain"

22 mean?

23 A. First of all, I must say that these are earlier lines of defence

24 that had been captured. These were our lines of defence. So the lines

25 that we manned before the operation began.

Page 3036

1 And as I said, my I mission was to take possession of the features

2 and lines that had been captured and to move troops into those new lines.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you please answer the question now, sir.


5 Q. I was asking: What did you mean by "sweeping of the terrain"

6 which has to be completed?

7 A. I was about to say that the features, facilities that had been

8 captured, must be checked for enemy soldiers, documents, weaponry. All

9 these had to be removed, such as mines and mine traps, so that the troops

10 can man those positions and defend them.

11 Q. You say "checked for enemy soldiers." What do you mean by

12 "checking for enemy soldiers"?

13 A. When a unit is destroyed, be it ours or the enemy's, they retreat.

14 They offer resistance. They try all methods to oppose the attacker. So

15 this is meant by checking whether there were any enemy soldiers staying

16 behind, because it wouldn't be very useful to try to man a front line and

17 lose one's head because this had not been done.

18 Q. So from which army were the enemy soldier -- were the enemy

19 soldiers that night for which the sweeping of the terrain is to be

20 conducted?

21 A. Troops of the Army of Republika Srpska, the units that were in

22 that area.

23 Q. Okay. If we look at number 8, please, for a second. It says --

24 or could you comment upon number 8, especially the point of "kept for

25 intervention." What do you mean by "kept for intervention"? That the

Page 3037

1 Mujahedin detachment should be kept for intervention?

2 A. Well, we discussed this term "intervention" at length. It is a

3 classical -- a classic procedure.

4 In the rear of certain troops manning a line, we have a group of

5 people who in the case that the line is broken can intervene, because

6 ahead of our forces there were Kvrge and some other facilities,

7 well-fortified where the enemy stood firm, and there was a need if our

8 lines were to be broken, to intervene along this axis, because those new

9 front lines were fresh and mobile and it wasn't clear who was manning

10 which part of the line.

11 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, could I have a map

12 distributed. We have enough copies for the Defence as well.

13 Q. And I want to draw your attention here to the --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please remove his hand,

15 because the interpreters cannot catch what you are saying. Thank you.


17 Q. If -- I want to draw your attention to the defence line where part

18 of the forces, according to the first hyphen, should stay in the sector

19 Kesten village, Kosa village, and Prokop.

20 Could you be -- you're referring here to the El Mujahedin

21 Detachment. Could you mark on the map where parts of these El Mujahedin

22 should be: Kesten, Kosa village, and Prokop.

23 A. [Marks]. This is Prokop. This is Kosa. And this is Kesten.

24 Q. So could you mark a "1" next to Kesten; "2" next to Kosa; and"3"

25 next to Prokop.

Page 3038

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And you have encircled all three, for the record. Thank you.

3 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this document - meaning the

4 document - into evidence. The map will follow later.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, you're -- you're tendering 2552.

6 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Document PT2552 is admitted into evidence.

8 May it please be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 466.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


12 Q. I want to take you to PT2572 now. You see it's an order from the

13 next day, the 11th of September at 11.30 in the morning.

14 And if we scroll to the signature, please.

15 Who signed it?

16 A. I signed it.

17 Q. Okay. If you please look in -- at section 2 of this document. In

18 English, we need to go to page 2. Thank you.

19 It says here -- I'm just reading out the relevant portion.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You -- you picked up an objection a little earlier

21 because of reading.

22 MR. NEUNER: I just wanted to save a little time. Okay.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you're picking up objections and time is

24 getting wasted as a result.


Page 3039

1 Q. I want to focus you on Kvrge and Djurica Vis, which are mentioned

2 here. Could you explain what you're ordering here in relation to Kvrge

3 and Djurica Vis.

4 A. This order was issued in the morning on the basis of an estimate

5 of the situation, the 35th Division's commander, following the 3rd Corps'

6 command to continue towards the Kvrge. This was a very firm position of

7 the enemy. And from the Djurica Vis position, where a part of the

8 El Mujahedin Detachment and part of the 4 Manoeuvre Battalion progressed

9 towards Kvrge and a part of the mechanised motorised battalion progressed

10 towards Podsijelovo. This was a continuation of the previous day's

11 advance that we had made.

12 Q. Could you mark on the map next to --

13 A. Towards the north.

14 Q. The map can be left next to the witness, because a few markings

15 will be necessary.

16 First of all, Djurica Vis. Encircle it and mark it with a "4."

17 A. Djurica Vis is an elevation of 500, and it's north of Kesten, half

18 a kilometre from Kesten. Elevation 505. And this was the launching pad

19 for further activities towards Kvrge. [Marks]

20 Q. Can you mark next to the encirclement of Djurica Vis "4," please;

21 next to the encirclement of Kvrge "5."

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you. And could you tell with -- by marking with an arrow

24 the movement of the El Mujahedin and the manoeuvre battalion according to

25 your order, what are you ordering here by drawing an arrow from where to

Page 3040

1 where they should move?

2 A. They were supposed to depart from feature Djurica Vis towards

3 Kvrge and from the feature Podsijelovo towards Kvrge.

4 Q. Could you mark the movement arrow from Djurica Vis to Kvrge with a

5 "6".

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And the second movement arrow for the Mujahedin Detachment from

8 Podsijelovo towards Kvrge with a "7," please.

9 A. Something's wrong with the question. As I said, in the part of

10 the El Mujahedin and part of the 4 Manoeuvre went from Paljenik towards

11 Kvrge and parts of the units from Podsijelovo are also supposed to advance

12 towards Kvrge.

13 Q. Which units advanced from Podsijelovo to Kvrge?

14 A. The 2nd Manoeuvre Battalion.

15 Q. Thank you for the clarification. Mark a "7" next to this arrow

16 where you want to indicate that the 2nd Manoeuvre Battalion was moving.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you.

19 Can now the document 2552 be admitted into evidence, please.

20 2572. I apologise.

21 A. If I may -- if this document can be ...

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Finish off, sir. Finish off your sentence.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to see that document

24 once again, please.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, okay.

Page 3041

1 Mr. Neuner.

2 MR. NEUNER: Can PT2572 please be shown to the witness. Thank

3 you.

4 Q. You wish to make a comment?

5 A. Your Honours, I would like to say a couple of things. It says

6 "The company and detachment of El Mujahedin." This was written by the

7 operative that I had available at the time.

8 To wit, at an earlier document I thought that we would be seeing

9 it dated at the beginning of May to control and command a unit, I had to

10 have operational records. And "operational records" mean the

11 establishment of a unit, the command personnel of the unit, the

12 composition of the unit, whether it's companies, platoons, or battalions.

13 I was supposed to be given a list of all equipment and weaponry available

14 to them, from what they were wearing to the heaviest artillery, what kind

15 of munitions they had, complete logistics supplies, communications,

16 equipment. And only after I received such information could I control

17 such a unit and command and issue them with missions.

18 When it says "company of the El Mujahedin Detachment," the

19 commander of the division, I or anybody else, never - I repeat"never" -

20 knew the establishment of the El Mujahedin Detachment. The manpower, the

21 number of -- of troops, or anything else.

22 If we follow the documents that reached us from the 3rd Corps

23 command, it was always stated there - which is not proper military

24 procedure - "El Mujahedin will participate with 10, 50, 350, 280 men, with

25 30, 300, 400, and I believe that the highest number was 600. Neither I

Page 3042

1 nor the command of the division ever received the head count. And in our

2 conversations, mostly with Ajman, when I tried to elicit the head count of

3 that detachment, the stock answer would be: "In Shala, God help, there

4 will be brothers available."

5 So I never had any contact with them. And information that I

6 received from them or about them were routed through my units in that area

7 of deployment or from my observation posts that I set up so that we could

8 monitor proceedings.

9 Furthermore, I did not receive reports during Farz operation, the

10 log that we saw a couple of minutes ago states that the corps commander on

11 eight or nine occasions had contact with Ajman. Before I reported to him

12 at 9.49 or 9.50, whichever that time was stated at, I had to state here.

13 It is said in the document "a company of the El Mujahedin Detachment."

14 This is erroneous because we never saw the establishment.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, can I -- can I interrupt. Where is this

16 "company of the El Mujahedin Detachment" on the document? Where is it? I

17 don't see it. Where is it?

18 MR. NEUNER: If I may assist, it's in section 8, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, we were not looking at section 8. We were --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under item 2.

21 MR. NEUNER: Item 2.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Fine.

23 But having said that, do you understand what the witness has been

24 saying, telling us now?

25 MR. NEUNER: Yes, I do understand.

Page 3043

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because I don't understand what --

2 MR. NEUNER: Yeah, I understand.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- the relevance of what he's been telling us to

4 this document.

5 MR. NEUNER: I understand the witness -- okay. I don't want to

6 testify.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, don't testify. As long as you understand.


9 Q. You were giving this explanation in relation to the use of the

10 word "company" in the relation to the El Mujahedin here. Is this correct,

11 in number 2 of your document?

12 A. Some operative wrote down "company," but he did not know - the way

13 that I did not know either - that they had companies at all. To wit, we

14 did not know their formation, their establishment.


16 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 467.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. NEUNER: I want to move to document 2592.

22 Q. Do you recognise who signed the document?

23 A. I signed it.

24 Q. And the handwriting here on top next to the addressees, who is

25 adding this?

Page 3044

1 A. I don't know. I can't remember. I haven't seen this document

2 until now. I don't know whose handwriting this is. It isn't -- is not

3 mine.

4 Q. Okay. If you look at number 5, please. Could you indicate on the

5 map next to you where Radulovo Brdo is.

6 A. It can't be seen very well. It's at the edge. [Marks]

7 Q. You have encircled part of the name, for the record, on the map.

8 Could you mark an "8" to --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- next to -- next to it.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Could you explain, why are you subordinating the 5th Manoeuvre

13 Battalion here -- or re-subordinating the 5th Manoeuvre Battalion?

14 A. The manoeuvre battalion, a 100-man-strong unit, and given that

15 combat activities were moving northwards, I re-subordinated the

16 5th Manoeuvre Battalion, which is mobilised out of Maglaj, to them because

17 the activities were moving in the direction of Maglaj. The Karcic feature

18 is a very important post, which will be very useful for the progress

19 towards Maglaj.

20 MR. NEUNER: With this explanation, can the document please be

21 admitted into evidence.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

23 please be given an exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 468.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 3045

1 MR. NEUNER: This is a convenient time for a break, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We'll take a break and come

3 back at half past 12.00.

4 Court adjourned.

5 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

8 MR. NEUNER: I want to address the Court first, because I see that

9 my time is coming to an end, and I have in the break reduced the number of

10 documents to be shown or videos to be shown. And I would need to ask the

11 Court's permission to go over time. I have at this point in time eight

12 documents or video excerpts to be shown. And I'm requesting Your Honours'

13 permission to do so.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What time does your time end?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My time ends in 15 minutes, if my

16 calculations or information is correct. Yes, and the registrar is

17 nodding.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And how much more time do you need?

19 MR. NEUNER: I will certainly finish in this session. I hope to

20 even finish before the end of this session.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You mean now you need the whole session more or

22 less?

23 MR. NEUNER: I expect to need less than the entire session.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just go on. Let's see how far you go, sir.

25 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

Page 3046

1 First of all, I would like to have the map tendered into evidence,

2 please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please

4 be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 469.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


8 Q. I want now to show you a videotape or an excerpt of it. It's

9 PT6023. And it can be shown without audio. The time code is 51 minutes,

10 50 seconds until 52 minutes, 56. It's about one minute.

11 Is it not appearing on the screen? I see it here on our screen.

12 There appears to be a technical problem.


14 MR. NEUNER: Maybe we can start that again, please.

15 Can we start afresh, and without audio.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. Are you in a position to comment upon what you have just seen?

19 A. This is the chance encounter with the commander on the section of

20 the road to Vozuca. I was told that along that road a rock fell off, a

21 boulder was on the street and that it was mine. Since I had engineers

22 under my command and since I myself am specialised in engineering, I

23 headed to that way to tell them how to go about it.

24 As I proceeded on my journey, I had this chance encounter with the

25 commander and members of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Of course, I don't

Page 3047

1 know how it happened, this encounter of ours, but at any rate we greeted

2 one another, we hugged, as was the normal customary way; we did not

3 exchange any words. There was no interpreter there. I proceeded -- I

4 went my way and I don't know what they did next.

5 Q. Would you be in a position to find the location where this

6 encounter took place?

7 A. I said that this was at one section of the road leading to Vozuca.

8 I can't tell you exactly. The boulder on the road was somewhere around

9 Stog, as far as I remember, and it may have been somewhere there. I can't

10 tell you exactly.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. NEUNER: If we could have from the court binder, map binder,

13 map 12 being shown. The ERN number is 06186707.

14 Q. You mentioned a moment ago a road. Could you point or indicate

15 where the road is you believe that meeting took place by using the

16 electronic pen, which will be provided to you by the usher?

17 A. Can we have this road here enlarged?

18 Q. Yes, we will endeavour to enlarge the road.

19 I believe it's the centre. Yes. Okay.

20 A. Up here somewhere lies Babilon. You can't see it right now. This

21 is the road going via Stog to Vozuca.

22 Q. If we can scroll --

23 A. It is not plotted on the map. This is where Babilon is, up here,

24 and this is where the road is. And somewhere around Stog --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't see where the witness is marking. Control

Page 3048

1 the witness, sir. Get into -- show us --


3 Q. Is on the map which you saw earlier Babilon shown? Otherwise I'm

4 just -- okay. You marked -- what did you just mark?

5 A. The road I took. I don't know at which section of the road we

6 met.

7 Q. And in which direction? Could you, first of all, mark the road

8 which you marked here on the map with a "1". Mark a "1" next to it.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you. And by using an arrow or marking an arrow, indicate in

11 which direction you were driving.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Thank you. And whereabout do you believe that the encounter took

14 place? If you could highlight by using maybe a wider circle the area

15 where you believe that the meeting took place or the encounter took place.

16 A. I don't remember exactly, but somewhere around the cleft there,

17 because that's the best position for laying mines on the roadside. But I

18 don't remember exactly.

19 Q. Could you maybe encircle the cleft and mark a "2" next to it, and

20 we'll leave it there then.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Mark a "2" next to it.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you. So you were talking earlier about the commander who

25 was there. Which commander are you talking about?

Page 3049

1 A. I spoke of my commander, having met the El Mujahedin Detachment.

2 Q. What is his name?

3 A. Sakib Mahmuljin.

4 MR. NEUNER: I want to tender this map into evidence, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please

6 be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 470.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. NEUNER: And I have here a still from the excerpt just shown

10 to you. And with the usher's assistance, I would hand the still over to

11 you.

12 If this could be placed on the ELMO.

13 We basically see two images here. If you could enlarge it for a

14 second, please, so that the Judges and especially the Defence can see

15 this. Enlarge it -- sorry --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

17 MR. NEUNER: Move out.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it wasn't quite clear

19 to me when I was watching the video, but it is much clearer now on the

20 still here. I don't believe it is permissible to show photographs to a

21 witness with markings already made about what the witness is supposed to

22 testify on. It says here above ahead "El Mujahedin," and I believe this

23 is quite inappropriate. You can see it, at least I can. I can read

24 "El Mujahedin" here.

25 As the video was being played, at the bottom there we were able to

Page 3050

1 see "Fadil Hasanagic," his name. I believe that this is something that

2 can lead the witness in his evidence. I would request that the

3 Prosecution no longer show such information in the future, because as soon

4 as the witness sees the still, he is already informed about the fact that

5 one of the persons shown there is a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

7 MR. NEUNER: This still was taken from the clip which was just

8 shown to the witness. We would have, from the Prosecution side, altered

9 the still if we would have redacted certain parts of it.

10 The witness, I believe - but I don't have the transcript now in

11 front of me - has earlier talked also about the fact that the -- let me

12 just see. Yeah. He mentioned in page 62, line 24 "members of the El

13 Mujahedin Detachment."

14 So I didn't lead the witness into anything. Rather, the witness

15 has, in his previous explanation, given already the fact that these might

16 be members of the El Mujahid Detachment. He has put this onto the record.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor

19 understands full well what I'm referring to.

20 Your Honour, this video clip was on the list of the material and

21 was shown to the witness in the course of his proofing. This means that

22 as soon as a witness sees such a piece of evidence, he will have been

23 suggested something that he -- the person will either accept or not. Some

24 will accept the suggestion and will testify likewise; others will not.

25 In none of the legal jurisdictions in the world is something like

Page 3051

1 this allowed. None of the systems allow it for witnesses to be shown as

2 part of evidence a text or other hints pointing to what they should

3 testify about.

4 I believe that this is a practice shared by the entire world.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a difficulty here which I would like to put

6 on the table and then we'll perhaps see how we rule on this.

7 There -- as I understand the Prosecutor, he says this picture was

8 taken from the clip, as it was. If they had erased anything, then they

9 would have been interfering with the clip. I don't know, therefore,

10 whether this "El Mujahedin" that's written here, was it part of the people

11 that were there that were -- as the clip was being taken, as the video was

12 being taken, or was it written over after the clip was taken. And I don't

13 know whether anybody is able to explain this.

14 And if indeed it is the former, how -- how does one go about

15 making sure that the word is not there? If indeed the word -- the name

16 was there as the clip was being taken.

17 On the other hand, I can understand that it must be difficult -- I

18 don't know. I don't know. Let me not comment.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have experience from

20 two different legal systems or to two different procedures. In the

21 earlier procedures -- procedural -- or rather, in the earlier proceedings

22 before the Tribunal, the Prosecution would cover such texts in black. As

23 it is, the -- the image clearly suggests to the witness what this is

24 about.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3052

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can with we see the clip again, please.

2 [Videotape played]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can see it's there on the clip as well, Madam

4 Vidovic. But I hear what you say. You have made your point that you --

5 you expect the Prosecution to have covered it and ...

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In particular, the first scene where

7 it says "El Mujahedin" at the top and -- then it said "Fadil Hasanagic."

8 The next second we had the name of "Sakib Mahmuljin" there. And this is

9 very important, since we are asking of the witness to identify persons.

10 Can we please play the tape back. First it said "Fadil

11 Hasanagic." You see? And then the next still will show "Sakib

12 Mahmuljin."

13 Can we play the video, please, in order for you to understand the

14 gist of my objection.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The request is that we play the video, please. Can

16 it play on.

17 [Videotape played]

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic. You have made

19 your point.

20 Now, what I don't remember now at this stage is whether when the

21 witness first mentioned encountering the commander and Mujahedin, was it

22 before or after seeing the clip. That, I don't know.

23 However, the objection is understood. I hear what you say. I

24 hope the Prosecution have noted it and will make sure that it doesn't

25 recur. I don't know how you make sure it doesn't recur.

Page 3053

1 MR. MUNDIS: I'm -- I apologise for interrupting my colleague.

2 The only way -- the only way that this type of situation would not recur

3 would be if we were to start altering or redacting material from

4 videotapes. And I'm extremely hesitant to go down a path whereby we start

5 altering videotapes.

6 The tapes come into our possession. Some of them have things --

7 text written on them, some of them don't. Some of them have audio, some

8 of them don't. I -- I think it's a very slippery slope for us to engage

9 in, in terms of -- of pursuing any kind of course of action that will then

10 open up further objections that the Prosecution has altered the evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a very slippery slope indeed. How do you

12 then respond to the objection that -- to the suggestion that you -- you

13 cover it up with somebody black like it's been has been done in -- that,

14 according to Madam Vidovic, it has been done here before.

15 And obviously in my jurisdiction any -- you take a thing as it is.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Exactly. Your Honours, that --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And present it as it is.

18 MR. MUNDIS: And that --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: She's saying that in this Tribunal they have been

20 covered before. What's your response to that?

21 MR. MUNDIS: I am aware of instances where that has happened. I'm

22 not aware of any instances where that's as the result of specific orders

23 or directions from Trial Chambers. I very well may be wrong on that

24 count. Standing here today, I am not aware of any such blanket orders

25 that that course of action be undertaken.

Page 3054

1 Let me stress, as I have indicated, we have obtained a number of

2 videotapes, some of which come with these types of labelings on them, some

3 of them don't.

4 I believe if we go back to page 62, lines 18 through the end of

5 that page and to the top of page 63, if you look at the witness's answer,

6 I believe he's actually covered some of this -- this very ground, in terms

7 of -- of the concern raised by the Presiding Judge.

8 I don't want to say anything further, but it would seem, based on

9 that answer, that the witness -- there would be no -- there would be very

10 little way for the witness to be influenced by what was contained on the

11 videotape or writing on the videotape, even if it were to be shown to him

12 during the course of the proofing.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. Well, I think that --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask a

16 question to you. You said that on the clip, on the film you could see a

17 meeting, a meeting that you had had with your commander and members of the

18 El Mujahedin Detachment. Did you say so because you remembered this

19 meeting yourself, your meeting with -- between your commander of the

20 detachment and El Mujahedin or did you say it because you had read a

21 number of mentions on the video clip?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on what I saw on the video

23 clip.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. I think the Chamber is not going to rule on

25 this point. I would like to hear further submissions on it.

Page 3055

1 I have serious problems with tampering with evidence by a party

2 who's coming to tender the evidence. At the same time, I have sympathy

3 with the complaint that then the evidence tells the witness what -- what's

4 on the document or what's -- what's on the picture.

5 But if that was what was taken, that's what was taken. And I

6 don't see why it should be tampered with. I would find very serious

7 problems with tampering with it, and I thought maybe I could be guided by

8 the parties on what the practice is in this jurisdiction, if the -- if

9 there is no practice, I would prefer to get further submissions before I

10 can make a ruling on it.

11 Okay. Thank you very much.


13 Q. Witness, having seen the clip, do you recognise anybody else who

14 was from the site of --

15 A. No, I -- I didn't recognise anyone.

16 Q. Can you at least on the still which is in front of you show, if

17 you remember anybody, whom you remember?

18 A. No, I don't remember. I came there. We exchanged greetings. It

19 lasted for a short period of time. We parted ways. Each went our own

20 ways.

21 Q. So on the still in front of you, do you recognise anybody on the

22 still on the right-hand side here, on your right-hand side?

23 A. I recognise my commander.

24 Q. Can you encircle his head.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 3056

1 Q. Thank you. And mark a "1" next to him.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And his name, for the record, is ...?

4 A. Sakib Mahmuljin.

5 Q. Anybody else you recognise here?

6 A. No. I don't know the person with the white cap, and this here is

7 blurred.

8 Q. Okay. If we go to a second still taken from this scene. And I

9 ask the usher to please assist and --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask a question. And I'm not sure who

11 I'm asking this question, because I don't know -- I am assuming that this

12 clip was not videoed by the witness. But I see that there is a person

13 here whose face is distorted. Is there any reason for that?

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. NEUNER: We, from the Prosecution side, obtained it in the

16 form in which it is. So the alteration, meaning that the pixel was

17 occurring, wasn't done by our side. It was -- it was played today in the

18 status in which the Prosecution has obtained it.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.


21 Q. On the second still now being shown, do you recognise anybody?

22 A. I only recognise myself.

23 Q. Could you please encircle your head.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. And mark a "1" next to this.

Page 3057

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. I would now ask that this document is being admitted into

3 evidence, please. The still. And I'm referring to the still which you

4 just -- where you just encircled your own head.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The picture on the ELMO is admitted into evidence.

6 May it please be given an exhibit number.

7 Yes, Judge. Sorry, the Judge has got a question.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have another question

9 that I would like to put to you about this video. I seem to remember that

10 you told us that you couldn't communicate and talk to the members of the

11 El Mujahedin Detachment because there was no interpreter. Is that what

12 you said indeed?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you remember that fact. That

15 is a fact that you have not come to conclude after having seen this video.

16 You didn't come to that conclusion because of the video you saw.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was on my own with my engineers.

18 I had no interpreter. There was nobody to interpret for me.

19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So that is a fact you remember,

20 sir?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the picture on the screen please be given an

24 exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 471.

Page 3058

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MR. NEUNER: Now I would like to have the first still where

3 Mr. Hasanagic encircled the head of Mr. Mahmuljin be tendered into

4 evidence, please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The second still on which the face of Mr. Mahmuljin

6 appears is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit

7 number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 472.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 MR. NEUNER: Before I ask that the video being tendered --

11 Q. Do you know on what date the encounter on the street occurred?

12 A. That was on the 10th of September, the first day of the Vozuca

13 operation.

14 Q. In what year?

15 A. 1995.

16 Q. And what time of the day was it?

17 A. Sometime in the afternoon. I couldn't really specify.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. NEUNER: So I ask that video PT6023 be tendered into evidence.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Video PT6 -- you said video PT? I didn't hear that

21 number.

22 MR. NEUNER: PT6023.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: 6023 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

24 given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 473.

Page 3059

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MR. NEUNER: To clarify, the excerpt which was just shown to the

3 witness.

4 Now I'm asking that PT2570 is being shown to this witness. Before

5 this is the case, I also would like to have the map tendered into

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which map, please?

8 MR. NEUNER: The marked portion of the -- sorry, it's already in

9 evidence.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

11 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry, I just saw it, so I wanted to take care.

12 Could you, because it appeared in B/C/S already, say who signed

13 it.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Who signed what?


16 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, could you say who signed it?

17 A. I signed it.

18 Q. Thank you. And I'm referring only to number 3 of this document.

19 A ceremonial review is mentioned in number 3. I think it's page 2 of the

20 English and page -- and I'm referring to number 3 of the document.

21 A ceremonial review is mentioned here. Could you explain to the

22 Judges which ceremonial review is meant here.

23 A. This is a review or parts of units --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: My picture has disappeared.


Page 3060

1 Q. That's all right. Go on.

2 A. It goes for an order to muster parts of the units for review,

3 those units who have taken part in the Vozuca operation to be mustered on

4 the 12th of that month for the visit of President Izetbegovic.

5 After a coordinating a meeting that took place on the 11th, corps

6 commander determined how many troops from each unit are going to be

7 mustered, and I drafted this order for my units that were deployed in my

8 area of responsibility and deployment and which included the El Mujahedin

9 Detachment.

10 Q. And where was the ceremonial review to take place?

11 A. In the centre of the Vozuca settlement.

12 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document please be admitted into

13 evidence.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document -- the document is admitted into

15 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 474.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MR. NEUNER: I want to show you a video clip now. It's PT6085A.

19 We don't need audio.

20 [Videotape played]

21 Q. You can already start commenting if you want to say something.

22 A. This is the arrival of the President of Vozuca. I reported to

23 him. He was escorted by the corps commander and the Minister of Police.

24 President Izetbegovic reviewed this line. He greeted the line of

25 soldiers, and then he went to the central part where the other troops and

Page 3061

1 officers and the civilian officials of Tuzla and Zenica were. And you see

2 his military greeting. There were the -- the civilians and others were on

3 the other side. I was in charge of the line-up of soldiers.

4 MR. NEUNER: Can we show that again, because it's only 50 seconds

5 long, and stop.

6 [Videotape played]

7 A. He greets the commanders of the 3rd and the 2nd Corps. He's

8 escorted by the corps commander.

9 This is part of the division command.

10 MR. NEUNER: Sorry, just to interrupt.

11 [Videotape played]

12 A. This is Ajman. I don't know the other two. They came here

13 without my knowledge to Vozuca.

14 Q. Okay. We have now past the time code 40.55-second image or 2

15 microseconds. Could you explain whom you recognise on the right-hand

16 side?

17 A. President Izetbegovic is here --

18 Q. Sorry, you're starting --

19 A. -- the commander.

20 Q. -- in the centre of the picture. I want you to start on the

21 right-hand side. Moving from the right to the left-hand side.

22 A. I don't know who is standing behind me.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Whose right? The right of the picture or the right

24 of the witness?

25 MR. NEUNER: The right of the picture.

Page 3062

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: So from his left.

2 MR. NEUNER: From his left on the right of the picture.

3 Q. So the first person you don't recognise, I understood?

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: There is a person in a cap and the commander is

5 someone -- somebody who's --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is the commander. That person with

7 a cap appears again. I don't know him. Neither I know the one standing

8 next to him.

9 Then we have Haso Ribo, operative from the corps. Then the

10 President, the commander, and that's me. And I don't know the soldier

11 behind. I can't remember, really.


13 Q. So the soldier behind your left shoulder, you don't recognise. Is

14 that correct?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me tell you one thing, Mr. Neuner. I don't

16 know what the two of you are talking. I don't know who is him here and

17 who is on -- on his left shoulder.

18 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry.

19 Q. Could you start looking on the right side of the picture, who is

20 the person to the utmost right?

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]


23 Q. Okay. We'll start with the front row. Who is standing to the

24 right-hand side of the photograph?

25 A. On the right-hand side, the first standing in the first row is me,

Page 3063

1 then the President, then the commander.

2 Q. Who is the commander, with full name, please?

3 A. 3rd Corps commander, Sakib Mahmuljin.

4 In the second row is an officer or a soldier, a member of the

5 military. I don't know him. And then I don't know the person in the

6 white cap. And the only one I know is an operative from the 3rd Corps,

7 Haso Ribo. I don't know the person standing behind Commander Mahmuljin. I

8 can't remember his name.

9 Q. Where is Haso Ribo standing in the second row?

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 A. Here.

12 Q. Could you, starting in the second row, explain where Haso Ribo is

13 standing. So that it's clear for the record and for Your Honours, the

14 Judges.

15 A. Haso Ribo is standing on the left-hand side behind the President

16 in the second row.

17 Q. Is he the man with the beard behind the President or the other man

18 without a beard behind the President?

19 A. I don't know either of them. I don't know the person in the white

20 cap, and I'm not sure whether I saw this other one ever.

21 Q. I'm trying to establish who Haso Ribo is. There are two persons

22 behind the President, one with dark hair and one with lighter hair

23 standing behind the President. Who of the two is Haso Ribo?

24 A. Haso Ribo is the one with his hand in the pocket and wearing a

25 shirt.

Page 3064

1 Q. I'm asking --

2 A. A camouflage shirt.

3 Q. I'm asking you this -- to distinguish between the hair colour.

4 There are two persons behind the President, one with dark hair and one

5 with lighter hair. Who of the two persons is Haso Ribo?

6 A. The one with the lighter hair, the blond hair.

7 Q. What was his position?

8 A. I think he was an operative in the 3rd Corps.

9 MR. NEUNER: I wish to tender this video into evidence, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to say to you, Mr. Neuner, before I

12 tender, I accept this into evidence, I don't know what you have been

13 talking about. You don't have a still picture of this?

14 MR. NEUNER: We don't have a still picture today handy.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope you and your --

16 MR. NEUNER: I've read out the time code. It's 0040 minutes, 55

17 seconds.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but I -- I understand that. All I don't

19 understand is the people that you have been talking about, I'm not quite

20 sure it's clear to everybody who the witness was talking about. It's

21 certainly not -- not absolutely clear to me.

22 But the -- this part of the picture, of the clip, rather, at

23 00 minute, 40, 55, 2 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

24 exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 475.

Page 3065

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 Yes, Mr. Neuner.

3 MR. NEUNER: I want to tender the entire clip also into evidence,

4 please.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The entire clip is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 476.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 MR. NEUNER: Then I wish to have the next excerpt shown from the

10 same videotape. The PT number is 6085B. We don't need audio.

11 Q. If you could state where that is.

12 [Videotape played]

13 A. After inspecting the troops, I briefed President Izetbegovic with

14 the help of a map on what we've achieved up to that point. He listened to

15 me very attentively. He had a couple of questions. And this is where I

16 finished. And the commanders of the 3rd and the 2nd Corps took over.

17 MR. NEUNER: Can the video please be, with the explanations of the

18 witness, admitted into evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: This video is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 477.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MR. NEUNER: The time code of the excerpt shown was 42 minutes, 47

24 second -- 39 seconds until 44 minutes, 30 seconds.

25 I want to show you the last document now, PT2606.

Page 3066

1 I notice that the e-court is not working or ... Yes, it's working

2 now.

3 Q. Could we please -- it's a document from the 15th of September,

4 1995, go to page 2 of the B/C/S to show the signature. And my question,

5 as always, would be: Who signed this document?

6 A. I signed it.

7 Q. And I want to go back to page 1, and I want you to focus on the

8 second part, or section 2 of your order. In English, it cannot be seen at

9 this point in time. I think we need to go to the second page in English.

10 Mentioning is made here of OR Zboriste (K. 591). Could you

11 explain what "OR Zboriste (K. 591)" stands for?

12 A. Combat activities moved into Maglaj theatre of operations. The

13 Blizna feature, which had been used to shell Maglaj and Zavidovici for

14 three years had been taken, and then we proceeded to this place, the

15 elevation 591, Zboriste.

16 Q. Okay. So you said "we proceeded to that place." Does that mean

17 that the units which you have ordered here in number 2 did deploy to

18 Zboriste following your order?

19 A. After the liberation of Blizna on the 15th, we advanced to

20 Zboriste for the units to be rested so that on the 16th we could proceed

21 further towards Maglaj. This was an interim stop for them. They were

22 supposed to replenish -- be replenished with their weapons, check their

23 equipment, and then move on immediately. And this is why we call this

24 area the preparatory region or preparatory place.

25 Q. My question was: The units mentioned in section 2 of your order

Page 3067

1 went to Zboriste?

2 A. Yes, the preparation region. If it had been ordered, then ...

3 Q. Could you clarify what "3 mnb" stands for, which is mentioned in

4 section 2.

5 A. This is my 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion minus one company. So two

6 companies from that battalion were to -- supposed to go there, and one

7 company was probably doing some other mission.

8 Q. So if you use "mnb" you're referring to manoeuvre battalions in

9 this section 2. Yes?

10 A. Yes. Yes, a manoeuvre battalion.

11 MR. NEUNER: Could the document please be tendered into evidence.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 478.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MR. NEUNER: Before the English translation disappears, I want to

17 note - that's why I asked the last clarifying question - that "3rd mnb" is

18 an english translator [sic] was motorised brigade, but the witness has

19 just clarified that we are talking about manoeuvre battalions.

20 I want to move to PT2647 now. Looking at the signature -- now it

21 disappears in B/C/S. Could we please scroll down.

22 Q. Who signed the document?

23 A. I signed it.

24 Q. It's dating from the 22nd of September, 1992.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 1995?

Page 3068

1 MR. NEUNER: 1995. I apologise.

2 Q. If you could please look at the second-last paragraph. In

3 English, it is on page 3, this paragraph displayed. And explain what you

4 mean here by -- what you're doing here to continue combat operations, as

5 you write. What are you doing in the second-last paragraph?

6 A. As I said, the 328th Brigade was supposed to take over the

7 captured line. And given that the combat operations moved forward, I

8 ordered that a number of troops were -- were to be seconded for the

9 evacuation and bearers of the wounded and for them to be subordinated --

10 re-subordinated to the El Mujahedin Detachment. Because of the lay of the

11 land, it was impossible to use motor vehicles, so it was necessary to

12 carry the wounded on stretchers manually.

13 MR. NEUNER: Can the document please be admitted into evidence.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 479.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MR. NEUNER: I want to come to my last topic, prisoners of war.

19 Q. We talked about the September operation now with a couple of

20 documents. Were any prisoners of war taken during that operation?

21 A. I had no information about that.

22 Q. Okay. I want to show you document PT2596. You see here on the

23 heading it's from the 328th Mountain Brigade. It's the upper left-hand

24 side of the first page. And you also see it's a regular daily combat

25 report.

Page 3069

1 If we could look for a second only in B/C/S at the signature,

2 please, on the last page. Only in the B/C/S document, please. Or if we

3 also for English move to the last page for a second.

4 My question to you would be: Who signed this document?

5 A. I don't know. It was supposed to be signed by the brigade

6 commander.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. If this document is from the brigade, then the commander of the

9 brigade is supposed to sign it.

10 Q. What's the name of the commander of the brigade?

11 A. Fuad Zilkic.

12 Q. If we move back to the first page again. And scroll up, please,

13 in the B/C/S and English. Up to the heading. Yes. Also in B/C/S please,

14 yes.

15 We see on the right-hand side "KM 35.dKoV."

16 Could you explain what that abbreviation stands for.

17 A. First of all, I would like to say that I did not see this report.

18 And this marking denotes the command post of the 35th division of the land

19 forces. This is how it is abbreviated as per establishment. So this is

20 the command post of the 35th Division of the land forces.

21 Q. Where was this command post on the 13th of September, 1995, when

22 the document is sent -- when the document is produced?

23 A. The command post was in Zavidovici town.

24 Q. And on the 13th of September, 1995, where were you?

25 A. I was at the Babilon IKM, 12 kilometres away from Zavidovici.

Page 3070

1 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I understand the witness says he

2 doesn't know the document, he hasn't received the document, so I would

3 only seek to mark it for identification. It will be used with other

4 witnesses later.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 480.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 MR. NEUNER: Coming to my last document, PT2717.

10 Q. We'll stay for on the first page for a moment. Have you ever seen

11 this document?

12 A. I haven't seen this document.

13 Q. Could you, seeing it now for the first time, at least explain the

14 category of this -- what this category of document is about. It says here

15 "Analysis of preparation execution of 'F-95' operation."

16 What might be the purpose of that document?

17 A. "Analysis" means that upon some -- a passage of time and some

18 combat activities that were completed, an analysis is made of what has

19 been done, how it has been done, together with the description of

20 experience, with a view to using it for future reference. This is -- the

21 information is sent to the operations centre, and from there the staff is

22 in charge of producing an analysis.

23 It says here that it was sent to the Operations and Training

24 Department.

25 Q. Among others, the third line says: "ONO," the Operations and

Page 3071

1 Training Department is the receiver. Is that what you wanted to say?

2 A. Yes. That's the key organ of the staff, producing analyses,

3 drafting reports, et cetera.

4 Q. Okay. And we see in the first line of the addressee field that it

5 is also sent to the 35th Division command. Who would be the normal person

6 to receive such a document in the 35th Division command?

7 A. It would be sent to the operatives at the operations and training

8 organ. I don't know to which one. There were five or six of them. At

9 any rate, it would be sent to the operations and training section, where

10 it would be taken on.

11 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, given the witness's answers, I think I

12 cannot take this any further. I would just ask that the document be

13 marked for identification, as well, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 481.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 MR. NEUNER: .

19 Q. So I want to ask my question again: To your knowledge, were any

20 POWs taken during the September 1995 Operation Farz?

21 A. Some information was circulating and it was raw information. I

22 don't know whether it could be relied upon. But I don't recall any

23 information reaching me directly or any report reaching me directly.

24 Q. Okay. You said no report or other information reached you

25 directly, but what information was circulating about POWs?

Page 3072

1 A. I was constantly on the move. When combat activities started,

2 people would come back to me, and I'd ask them whether there were any

3 problems, how were things going on. I asked after the troops. I asked

4 after any POWs. But none of that is valid enough information for me to be

5 able to tell you whether there were any POWs or not.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, we understand all that. The question put

8 to you was: What was the information that was circulated, the raw

9 information you referred to?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was observing combat

11 activities, I was going to and fro at the front lines. This piece of

12 information was given that there were POWs, but who it was, where, how,

13 all of that information was not available to me.

14 MR. NEUNER: I want to thank the Trial Chamber for its indulgence

15 with respect to the extra time granted to the Prosecution. And at this

16 point in time, the Prosecution has no further questions.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

18 Madam Vidovic, do you find it worth your while?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I leave it in your

20 hands. If you believe that I should start now, I could start with a

21 couple of general questions; although, I myself don't see it worth my

22 while. I wouldn't be able to show any documents to the witness, but I

23 might be able to put a dozen introductory questions to the witness.

24 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

Page 3073

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. I will be examining you on behalf of the Defence for General

3 Delic. I will only be putting a couple of general questions to you today

4 in order for us to save more time for tomorrow.

5 You have graduated from the military academy in Belgrade; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Next you graduated from the Command Staff academy; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This is the highest schooling degree provided in the former JNA;

11 is that right?

12 A. No, there was another one-year course that could be taken, which

13 was called the All People's Defence.

14 Q. Thank you for the explanation. I'm merely trying to establish

15 what it was you were doing.

16 In the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you held the position of the

17 commander of staff in the course of 1992; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I understood you to say that you were appointed commander of the

20 Operations Group of Bosnia in February 1994.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Finally, on the 18th of January, 1995 you were appointed the

23 commander of the 35th Division; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. Of course, that was the appointment, but the division came

25 to life on the 1st of March, 1995.

Page 3074

1 Q. Thank you for the explanation.

2 Mr. Hasanagic, you were obviously trained -- a trained officer; is

3 that right?

4 A. In that period of time and given the scope of work required, yes.

5 Q. Right. What I want to say is that you were trained but you will

6 agree with me that your associates and the rest of the command were not;

7 is that right?

8 A. Yes. Especially with regard to the Operations Group Bosnia. We

9 had 20 to 40 per cent of the manpower required, and there was only one

10 academy graduate there; whereas, in the division itself, in the division

11 command, out of the 200 officers I had, I only had one who had been

12 trained, whereas all the other ones were mobilised to place themselves at

13 the disposal of the BH army.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasanagic. I will be going back to that question

15 tomorrow to clarify this, but I do wish to ask you to speak more slowly in

16 order for your entire answer to be entered in the transcript. We will

17 resume tomorrow, and I do appeal to you to provide brief answers to my

18 questions, because I will have many questions to put to you.

19 The nature of the cross-examination is such that it allows you to

20 answer with a "yes" or a "no" unless you deem it necessary to clarify your

21 answers. Do you understand me?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to finish

24 now, since my next questions will concern documents.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

Page 3075

1 That being the case, we'll adjourn for tomorrow. Come back

2 tomorrow morning at 9.00, sir.

3 Court adjourned to 9.00 tomorrow morning in this same courtroom.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. In addition, you are being warned that

6 now that you are testifying, sir, you are not supposed to talk to anybody

7 about this case. Anybody, unless -- except here in court. Okay?

8 Thank you very much. Court adjourned.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Understood.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

12 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.