Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3135

1 Thursday, 27 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor

10 versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Could we have the appearances for today, starting with the

13 Prosecution.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

15 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

16 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner, assisted, as always, by our

17 case manager, Alma Imamovic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 And for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

21 morning to my learned friend from the OTP, everybody in the courtroom, and

22 around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson, assisted by

23 Lejla Gluhic for the Defence of General Delic.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 I will always remind you, sir, that you are still bound by the

Page 3136

1 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth,

2 the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Thank you very much.

3 Thank you.

4 Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hasanagic. Yesterday we stopped while

12 discussing your attempts to put -- place the Mujahedin under your control.

13 A. Madam Vidovic, you stopped me while I explained how the Mujahedin

14 came to my division.

15 And, Your Honours, if I may explain something.

16 Q. Please go ahead.

17 A. Every -- their visit to the commander was pregnant with

18 misunderstanding. First of all, we had in the division command women who

19 worked in the operations, in finances, and every time they required the

20 women to be moved out and they wanted a Cafir in the commander. They

21 wanted to see whether there were Croats and Serbs in the command.

22 Of course we had, and I was proud of that fact.

23 Another constant problem is that they were enemies of smoking, and

24 this engendered conflict every time they visited the command and unit.

25 And in pauses between fighting, there was alcohol sloshing around. I

Page 3137

1 could not control a front line of 50, 60 kilometres and more than 12.000

2 people in my division.

3 They showed mistrust to me, and I didn't want -- didn't want to

4 change my views in terms of the composition of my command and the

5 establishment of my command and the daily work and life of my command.

6 And, of course, gradually they became ever more distant from me.

7 And an intelligence of the 3rd Corps that was sent to the General Staff

8 says that they had support from the then-municipal authorities of

9 Zavidovici and the Muslim clergy.

10 At that time, I was the commander and I did not want to admit that

11 I was afraid, but my security guards and people in my immediate vicinity

12 knew that. And today I can tell you, Your Honours, frankly I was afraid

13 of them.

14 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hasanagic. I did not interrupt you

15 yesterday. It was force majeure. We had to stop because of some other

16 engagements of the Chamber.

17 Thank you for this explanation. I will try to elaborate on what

18 you just said.

19 Now I would like the witness to take a look at PT2095, please.

20 And before we see the document on the screen, for the record, Your

21 Honours, I would like to say that this is a document by the 35th Division

22 command. It is an order concerning a team for monitoring and controlling

23 combat activities.

24 Witness, now I would like to ask you to take a look at this

25 document when it appears on the screen. It is document PT2095.

Page 3138

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't see it on the

2 screen. Ah, thank you. Now it's okay.

3 Q. Witness, please focus your attention first on item 1 of this

4 document -- I mean first page. And please confirm that this is a document

5 by the 35th Division.

6 And now I would like the second page of both versions be shown so

7 that we can see where the signature is.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this would be page 5

9 in the English version.

10 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, can you see this document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it your signature?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Now let's go back to the first page of this document.

15 It is evident that you ordered that teams for monitoring and controlling

16 combat operations to be established. Do you agree that this is what it

17 says under the "I order"?

18 A. Yes, it's teams for monitoring and controlling and assistance.

19 Q. Yes, and assistance. Okay. Thank you.

20 And it says here that you specified a team of your officers,

21 including Nesad Sabic, chief of staff, to assist the detachment.

22 Your Honours, could you please take a look on page 1. There is

23 part of the relevant section. And if we can see the second page so that

24 the Bench may follow. Page 2 of the English version, please.

25 It says here that you ordered some assistance to be provided, but

Page 3139

1 it is true, is it not, Mr. Hasanagic, that the El Mujahedin Detachment

2 never admitted Sabic in -- onto their premises? Is that true?

3 A. This is what my chief of staff told me.

4 Q. Simply they did not accept assistance from you or your officers.

5 Am I correct in saying so?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you take a look at item 2, the tasks and missions of those

8 teams.

9 Your Honours, in the English version, you must take a look at

10 page 3, the top of the page. Good.

11 Now, Mr. Witness, I see that you are reading those tasks outlined

12 under item 2. If I were to interpret those tasks, it seems that your

13 tasks were supposed to monitor, direct, and coordinate the work of units,

14 departments, organs. Do you agree that this is stated in this document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We have to slow down for the transcript. Mr. Hasanagic, do you

17 agree that this would entail them to monitor, direct, and coordinate the

18 work of the El Mujahedin Detachment along with the others? Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But this is not what your team of officers succeeded in; is that

22 correct?

23 A. No, because we did not know what the departmental organs of that

24 unit were, because we did not know anything about the establishment of

25 that detachment.

Page 3140

1 Q. On the other hand, they did not permit your chief of staff to come

2 into their premises, to monitor all these. Am I right?

3 A. Yes, you are right.

4 Q. Also, a team of your officers could not control the implementation

5 of the security measures orders on the part of the El Mujahedin

6 Detachment. Would I be correct in saying so?

7 A. For the same reason, because we did not know whether they had the

8 departmental organ there and who it was.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I tender this

11 document into evidence and may it be given an exhibit number.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

13 please be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The Exhibit number will be 487, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to see

17 document D419.

18 Q. First of all, Mr. Hasanagic, may I say for the record that this is

19 a document, an order of the 35th Division's command from the command post

20 Klek dated 27th of May, 1995. Do you agree with this?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It seems that the document bears your signature?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you agree that the document concerns connecting an engineering

25 configuration of the newly reached lines? It is a brief document. Please

Page 3141

1 read through it so that I don't encumber the record and transcript.

2 A. "On the basis of --"

3 Q. Please read it silently.

4 A. Okay. I will.

5 Q. But please pay particular attention to item 5. And do you agree

6 that it says that: "By 20.00 hours on the 27th of May, 1995, a detailed

7 combat report on combat activities during that date should be delivered.

8 In it, it should be reported on the use of materiel and technical

9 equipment, munitions, explosives, requests of supply, et cetera? Do you

10 agree with that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And do you agree that under item 2, it says that newly reached

13 lines should be fortified; engineering work had to be done; and they ought

14 to be linked with the firing system and link up the gaps? Do you agree?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it true that you never received this detailed combat report by

17 the deadline specified; meaning, 20.00 hours on the 27th of May, 1995?

18 A. I never received it.

19 Q. Neither did the El Mujahedin?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to find out: Did you never receive

21 that detailed report from all these people that -- to whom this order was

22 addressed? The order was addressed to the 3rd Corps command El Mujahedin

23 Detachment, 328th Brigade, 329th. All those people? Or which -- who

24 didn't -- from whom did you not receive this detailed report?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not receive that

Page 3142

1 report from the El Mujahedin Detachment.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you receive it from the others, the other

3 addressees?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I did, but I can't recall

5 right now.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,

8 for this clarification.

9 Q. So I stopped at discussing these lines and their -- the

10 engineering work on them.

11 Is it -- it's true, is it not, Mr. Hasanagic, that the El

12 Mujahedin Detachment never followed your orders when it came to

13 engineering fortifications? They proceeded at their own will. I mean,

14 the detachment.

15 A. They had no engineering units, so they went about doing

16 engineering work to the best of their abilities.

17 Q. Well, but what I'm interested in is whether the detachment

18 followed your orders in this respect, in respect of engineering tasks.

19 Did they or did they not?

20 A. Your question is not clear to me.

21 Q. Very well. Let me rephrase. It says here: "Fortify lines

22 reached, do engineering work on them, link up the firing system and the

23 gaps."

24 This is my question to you: Did the El Mujahedin Detachment upon

25 receiving this order from you do the engineering work on the areas where

Page 3143

1 they engaged in combat and linked up with the firing system -- and did

2 they link up with the firing system of your units?

3 A. I don't recall. They were supposed to do that, but I don't

4 remember whether they did it.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

7 assigned an exhibit number, please.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 488, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You can put this document aside.

13 Can the witness be shown PT2117.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: General, while we are waiting for the next

15 document, I'd like to ask you if the El Mujahid Detachment ever asked for

16 engineering support from the 35th Division.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: And did you give it to them?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Please, sir, Mr. Hasanagic, can you look at this document.

23 For the record, let me specify that this is a report from the

24 command of the 2nd Manoeuvre Battalion, sent to the 35th Division - that's

25 to say, to your command - and concerns Proljece 1995. The document is

Page 3144

1 dated the 28th of May, 1995.

2 Can the witness look at page 2, at the signature block.

3 Let me ask you this: Commander Captain Smajo Saric is in the

4 signature block. Does this name mean anything to you?

5 A. I believe that he was the commander of the 2nd Manoeuvre

6 Battalion, and this is the -- a unit on the strength of the corps -- a

7 corps unit. Or rather --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Correction: A corps unit.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you.

11 We can see that a document is sent to the 35th Division. I would

12 like you to turn to the last paragraph of item 1.

13 If we could go back to page 1 in Bosnian.

14 I'd like to look at the last sentence in item 1 but just above

15 subitem (a). It says here: "Problems encountered in the execution of the

16 task were as follows," and their various problems are listed, of which the

17 35th Division is being put on notice.

18 Take a look at these problems, please. Concerning the El

19 Mujahedin Detachment, it says that guides were not designated who should

20 have taken units to certain sectors. Do you agree that this is what it

21 says?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It goes on to say that members of this detachment did not allow

24 for the sector to be entered into and for the positions there to be taken

25 up in a timely fashion. As a result, the units of the 35th Division came

Page 3145

1 under artillery fire from Serbian forces.

2 A. Not of the 35th Division but of the 2nd Mechanised Battalion.

3 Q. I apologise. Perhaps I misunderstood this.

4 Next it says that the unit, under (b), says that because of the

5 arbitrariness in the conduct of that unit, they suffered losses in the

6 battalion. It also says that due to the requests of the El Mujahedin

7 Detachment, the mission could not be carried out at night-time and it had

8 to be put back for the following day.

9 Do you agree that this is what it says?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I have another question in connection with this: Do you agree

12 that this document shows that the detachment did not in fact fit into the

13 prescribed command-and-control system of the units of the army of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Would you agree with this conclusion?

15 A. The coordinated action between units of the same level in a combat

16 activity involved the coordinated action between the manoeuvre battalion

17 and the detachment. I am looking at the document now, and I see that they

18 were unable to find an agreed course of action.

19 Q. Leaving this document aside for the time being, tell us, you had

20 experience with the El Mujahedin Detachment on the ground. Would you

21 agree with the statement that the detachment did not fit into the

22 command-and-control system precisely in the way as described in this

23 document?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. They were given assignments, just as other units were; however,

Page 3146

1 they did not execute these assignments in the way that they had been asked

2 to.

3 A. They preferred carrying out assignments on their own.

4 Q. Even though they did not wish to --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Correction: Even if -- and if

6 they did not want to engage in a certain action at a certain point in

7 time, they simply didn't go about doing it. Is that right?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Therefore, if they decide not to engage in an action, this is

11 their decision and one could not give them any further orders on that

12 matter. Am I right?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this document be

15 admitted into evidence.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

17 please be given an exhibit number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 489, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the witness be

21 shown Exhibit 447.

22 Let me state for the record that this is an order for engineering

23 support to the 35th Division dated the 15th of July, 1995.

24 Q. In the course of his examination, the Prosecutor showed you this

25 document, Mr. Hasanagic. I want you to have another look at it. You do

Page 3147

1 remember this document, don't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Very well. Look at item 2 again, where it says: "tasks of

4 subordinate units" which include tasks to the El Mujahedin Detachment,

5 among others. Is that right?

6 A. Yes. I have to say that the operative, such as he was and that I

7 had, he said -- he wrote that these were tasks to units. He doesn't say

8 which ones. And as a rule, one would not need to put "subordinate unit."

9 That goes without saying.

10 Q. But is that right that this is something you referred to in

11 answering questions to the Prosecutor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can I please ask you to turn to the text below the heading that

14 says "El Mujahedin Detachment." Do you agree with me that here, as part

15 of the order for engineering support, you order that a passage be made

16 through your own and through enemy minefields?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You're issuing this order to them; is that right?

19 A. Yes. The focus of engineering support is what I'm saying in this

20 task, so I'm clearly specifying what it is that they ought to do.

21 Q. Very well. And you are giving this assignment to them, among

22 others; is that right?

23 If I put it to you now that the El Mujahedin Detachment did not

24 accept such orders of yours at all and did not implement them, would I be

25 correct? Would I be correct in saying that they did not do what they were

Page 3148

1 told to do here, to make a passage through their own and through enemy

2 minefields?

3 A. They passed through the minefields as they were attacking. Now,

4 how they did this --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. --

6 MR. NEUNER: Sorry to interrupt.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

8 MR. NEUNER: Just I noted that the answer to the question of my

9 learned colleague from the witness - to the previous question - was not

10 recorded. It was unclear to us whether indeed the El Mujahedin Detachment

11 got a task or not. Maybe the witness has said "yes," but it's not

12 recorded in the transcript.

13 I'm referring to page 14, line 11, where the question ends --

14 sorry, line 6, where the question ends. Page 14, line 6. And no answer

15 is recorded but just the next question.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they did not hear an

17 answer if there was one.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, I asked you whether this assignment was given to

20 the El Mujahedin Detachment, among others.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Let us go back to what I was asking you about before we were

23 interrupted. Mr. Hasanagic, if I were to put to you that such orders of

24 yours were not implemented by El Mujahedin -- and when I say "such

25 orders," I mean orders such as with this one, to ensure that a passage is

Page 3149

1 made through their own and enemy minefields -- would I be right?

2 A. As they set out to engage in combat, they had to have corridors

3 allowing them to pass through. How they managed to do this is something I

4 don't know.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we put this document aside now.

7 Could the document be shown D420 in connection with this.

8 For the record, this is a document from the 35th Division command

9 dated the 3rd of June, 1995 which says "An analysis of the Proljece 95

10 offensive as per engineering support."

11 It says that it was sent to the 35th Division and the ONO --

12 A. Operations and training organ.

13 Q. Thank you for this clarification. I was wondering about the

14 meaning of this.

15 Witness, please turn to page 2 of the document. Can we see the

16 page where the signature is and could we have the same in English. Or

17 rather, to see the name of the person who drafted this document.

18 A. That's my chief of engineering.

19 Q. Mr. Refik Fazlic is your chief of engineers; is that right?

20 A. [No audible response]

21 Q. In connection with this, can we go back to --

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if it says in the

23 transcript that it's been signed, well, it's not been signed but there's

24 just the signature block. The name of Refik Fazlic, chief of engineers is

25 typed out.

Page 3150

1 Q. Am I right, Witness?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And he also doesn't have a stamp.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. There is no

5 stamp. And we will ask the witness to give us an explanation of this.

6 Q. Sir, look at the document, which says "Analysis of the offensive,

7 Proljece 95." Do you recall --

8 Can we please have the document shown on page 1. Can we have page

9 1, please. I'd like us to see the ERN number too. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

11 MR. NEUNER: Can I maybe ask my learned colleague, because it's

12 addressed to the organ for operations and training, to ask the witness

13 simply whether he has ever seen the document, to lay a foundation.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I was just

16 about to have this established with the witness. I would not have missed

17 that point.

18 Q. Look at the document. Have you ever seen this document?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Right. My next question is: Do you recall developing an analysis

21 or that the chief of your staff ever developed an analysis of Proljece 95?

22 A. Yes, an analysis is produced after a -- an action is completed.

23 Q. Let us explain why there is no signature or stamp. Would you

24 agree with me that this is an internal analysis of your chief which is

25 sent to you internally, within the division, which is sent to the

Page 3151

1 operations and training organ of your division?

2 A. It is normally sent to the chief of operations and training, but

3 the document ought to be signed.

4 Q. Is that right?

5 Let me ask you this. Perhaps you know something about the fact

6 regardless of the document. Look at the last third of the document, which

7 says: "Placing obstacles" --

8 Can we scroll down the English version -- or let's focus on the

9 paragraph which says the -- that's page 2 of the English version, please.

10 Page 2, paragraph 2 in the English version.

11 It says: "Setting up barrier systems was slow because of lack of

12 understanding on the part of the El Mujahedin Detachment which did not

13 permit the setting up of barrier systems with PPM" --

14 A. Antipersonnel mines.

15 Q. Antipersonnel mines. " ... So that only the following roads, K685,

16 K706 and Cevaljusa village K702 were blocked with PTM"?

17 A. Anti-tank mines.

18 Q. Right. So let's ignore whether this document was signed or not,

19 but I'm asking you about this fact: Is it known to you that the El

20 Mujahedin Detachment did not allow the barrier system to be erected as

21 specified here with antipersonnel mines and that fact slowed down the

22 process of establishing barriers at the newly reached lines?

23 A. Yes, this is true because they did not permit people to enter

24 their area of deployment or disposition. For what reasons, I don't know.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 3152

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May we have an exhibit number

2 assigned to this document, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 490, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we show the

9 witness document -- Exhibit 442. I apologise. Not document.

10 For the benefit of the transcript -- before that, can we have this

11 enlarged, please, both versions.

12 For the transcript, I'd like to say that this is a document by the

13 35 Division command dated 10th of June, 1995.

14 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, you may recall that you answered Prosecutor's

15 questions in connection with this document. Do you recall that?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Now, could you please read item 1 and item 3 of this document,

18 because I'm going to focus my questions on these two. So items 1 and 3.

19 Your Honours, item 3 is on page 2 of the English version.

20 Now I would like to put it to you that in this item it says that

21 the El Mujahedin Detachment will secure unhindered reconnaissance. And

22 later on -- can you see that?

23 A. Are you reading item 3?

24 Q. No, no, I'm reading item 1, Mr. Hasanagic. It says here: "Upon

25 receipt of this order, the El Mujahedin Detachment will take all

Page 3153

1 preparatory and organisational actions to reconnoiter."

2 And now take a look at item 3: "The detachment will secure

3 unhindered reconnaissance of the 328th and 329th Brigades."

4 Can you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now take a look at item 5, please. And it says here that: "All

7 results of reconnaissance," et cetera --

8 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry to interrupt. But I note here the

9 translation of item 3 in the transcript. I think that it should be the

10 other way around, not that the detachment will secure unhindered

11 reconnaissance of the 328th and 329th Brigades but the other way around,

12 that 328th and 329th Mountain Brigade will secure that the El Mujahedin

13 can do this reconnaissance. I just noted this for the transcript.

14 Maybe this can be clarified.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is correct. Your Honours, I

16 read it in the way that the Prosecutor states. My words have been

17 translated incorrectly, but let me go back to it.

18 Q. Witness, I read item 3 which reads: "328th and 329th Brigade will

19 commands will ensure that the El Mujahid forces can reconnoiter without

20 restrictions in their respective areas of responsibility."

21 This is how I read this text; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After that I asked you to take a look at item 5. It stipulates

24 that -- under this document that all results of reconnaissance and

25 collected information be reported by the El Mujahedin Detachment command

Page 3154

1 during and after completed reconnaissance.

2 A. Yes, during and after.

3 Q. Thank you. So you requested from the El Mujahedin Detachment's

4 command such reports.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But in effect, you never received such reports. Am I correct in

7 saying so?

8 A. I did not receive these reports.

9 Q. About reconnaissance?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can close down this document now.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: General, did you receive reports from the 328th

14 Brigade and the 329th Brigade?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now may the witness be

18 shown document PT2255.

19 For the transcript, may I say, Your Honours, that this is a

20 document of the 35th Division command dated the 17th of July, 1995,

21 addressed to the El Mujahedin Detachment.

22 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, can you see this document? Is the signature on it

23 yours?

24 A. Yes, it is mine.

25 Q. This is not a lengthy document. Please read it silently.

Page 3155

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What I'd like to ask you is as follows: On the 17th of July, 1995

3 you demand repeatedly that the detachment submit every day their reports

4 so that you could meet your obligations towards the 3rd Corps command. I

5 say "repeatedly," Mr. Hasanagic, because yesterday we saw your document

6 dated 5th of April, 1995, whereby you demanded the same thing.

7 And now, do you agree that this document is specifically addressed

8 to the El Mujahedin Detachment's command and that you demand reports?

9 A. Yes, it would be -- it was a precedent in the division if reports

10 did not come in and the division meted out severe punishment towards units

11 who failed to submit their reports. Now I order the El Mujahedin

12 Detachment to submit their reports because I had obligations toward my 3rd

13 command -- 3rd Corps command.

14 Q. Therefore, I conclude that they did not observe the 5th of April

15 order that we saw yesterday, at least by the date of the 17th of July,

16 1995; otherwise, you would have not sought such daily reports again.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please, until this date and beyond this date and as long as the El

19 Mujahedin Detachment was re-subordinated to you, did you receive reports,

20 combat reports, operational reports from the El Mujahedin Detachment?

21 A. I did not receive operational reports from the El Mujahedin

22 Detachment.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

24 MR. NEUNER: Yes. In the previous question, my learned colleague

25 has mentioned -- has mentioned an order from the 5th of April. Could just

Page 3156

1 this please be clarified. It's probably 5th of April, 1995. Or if my

2 learned friend would have a PT or exhibit number, just for the record this

3 would be nice.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a second, please.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: General, while we wait, I just wanted to -- to be

7 sure that I understood your last question -- your last answer correctly.

8 Even after you issued this order of 17th of July, which is on the screen

9 now, even after that time, you still did not receive any reports from the

10 El Mujahid Detachment, be it operational or otherwise. Is that correctly

11 understood?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: You simply never received any submission from them

14 as to what they had been doing or what they intended to do in the field?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Meaning the regular operational

16 reports, no.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will revisit this

18 question to clarify it, but in response to Mr. Neuner's intervention or

19 question, may I state that we can take a look at this Exhibit 484 so that

20 you are appraised of what I am discussing. This is the document dated 5th

21 of April, 1995. So let's take a look at Exhibit 484.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, the -- we may look at Exhibit 484,

23 but in the meantime what do we do with PT2255?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will dwell on it for

25 a short while. I will ask the witness another question concerning it, and

Page 3157

1 then I will seek its admission.

2 But for your benefit, when I refer to the order dated 5th of

3 April, 1995, so that you can see what I'm referring to.

4 Q. Witness, do you recall this document? Yesterday we discussed the

5 incorrect date on it.

6 A. Yes. I recall chief of staff is responsible of collating all

7 reports coming in from subordinated units and drafting the proper report,

8 and I reminded him on the 17th of July of his obligation.

9 Q. But in this order dated 5th of April, 1995 - and you mentioned the

10 erroneous date - in that document, your chief of staff demands that

11 deadlines for the submission of reports be honoured, and this included the

12 El Mujahedin Detachment. Do you recall being asked about that?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. So we can close down this document and let's go back to the

15 document PT2255, please?

16 Now, Mr. Hasanagic, His Honour Harhoff asked you whether you

17 received any reports on combat activities or on intentions.

18 I'd like the Bench to understand this: Here we are discussing

19 reports and operational reports; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yesterday we saw a plan that they submitted to you, and you do not

22 dispute the receipt of that plan.

23 A. No, I don't dispute it.

24 Q. But this is another type?

25 A. Of document.

Page 3158

1 Q. Yes, this is another type of document. Thank you.

2 Reports outline combat and other activities of a unit in a

3 preceding period of time; is that so?

4 A. Every day regular reports are supposed to be drafted as per

5 military regulations, and we prescribed which items should be included in

6 regular operational reports. And if nothing was done, the report -- daily

7 regular report should state "we did nothing." But I had to have those

8 reports so that I could collate my report to the 3rd Corps command.

9 Q. But you simply did not receive such reports from the El Mujahedin

10 Detachment neither on the 17th of July, 1995 nor in the remaining period

11 while they were re-subordinated to you. Am I correct in saying so?

12 A. Yes, you are correct.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document be

14 assigned an exhibit number, please.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 491, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

21 464.

22 For the record, this is an order from the command of the 35th

23 Division dated the 6th of September, 1995 which the Prosecutor showed you

24 while you were answering his questions.

25 Q. Look at this order once more, Witness. On the basis of this

Page 3159

1 order, the officers of the 35th Division are to be deployed during combat

2 activities.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we scroll up please. Can we scroll up, please.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Further up. Can we see the first

5 sentence in the document in English, for the benefit of Their Honours.

6 Thank you.

7 Q. This is my question: You're ordering the way in which the

8 officers of the command of the 35th Division are to be -- the order in

9 which they are to be deployed during combat activities. Is this what this

10 document is about?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we turn to page 2 of the Bosnian version. And I believe

13 that's page 4 in English. At any rate, item 6, Your Honours.

14 Witness, please look at item 6 while we're waiting for the English

15 version to show up on the screen.

16 Now we have it. Thank you.

17 According to this document, you assigned Mr. Muharem Ismicic to

18 the forward command post of the El Mujahedin Detachment; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This is something we can conclude on the basis of the document.

21 Mr. Hasanagic, if I were to put to you now that Mr. Ismicic did

22 not spend a single minute at this forward command post, would you accept

23 that?

24 A. I don't recall. I can't confirm this. He left the IKM. Whether

25 he was there or not, it's hard for me to say.

Page 3160

1 Q. Very well. You were the commander of a division. Would it not

2 be logical that in case he wasn't allowed to go over there, for him to

3 report to you about it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it true that he did not report to you on this?

6 A. I don't recall that.

7 Q. Very well.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we put this document away now.

9 Q. I wish to show you another document, a document shown to you by

10 the Prosecutor. That's document number 478 -- or rather, that's an

11 Exhibit 478.

12 Please turn to item 2 of the document. For the record, let me

13 state that this is a document of the 35th Division dated the 15th of

14 September, 1995.

15 Do you agree that it reads here that: "The 3rd, 4th, and 5th

16 Battalions and the El Mujahedin Detachment should during the night bring

17 the units to the meeting point and allow the troops to rest," and so on

18 and so forth?

19 Let me refer to the transcript now. The Prosecutor asked you on

20 the 25th of September, on page 83, lines 16 to 18 the following question:

21 "The units mentioned in item 2 of this order went to the meeting point,

22 didn't they?" Answer -- you said, "Yes, into the preparatory area."

23 A. Yes, waiting area.

24 Q. Very well. Waiting area.

25 And you added the following: "If this is how it was ordered at

Page 3161

1 the time." And there you were interrupted by the next question from the

2 Prosecutor.

3 I wish to clarify this point now. What you stated clearly in your

4 evidence in answer to the Prosecutor's questions was that you were obeyed

5 by the 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion, that they observed your order.

6 A. I don't understand your question.

7 Q. When you look at this order, you sent it to the 3rd, 4th, and 5th

8 Manoeuvre Battalions and to the El Mujahedin Detachment. In answer to the

9 Prosecutor's questions, you said clearly that the 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion

10 acted on your order.

11 Now, my question is this: Did El Mujahedin observe your order?

12 A. Perhaps I was interrupted, but the units to whom the order was

13 addressed, they were at the waiting area, and on the 16th of September -

14 that's to say, the following day - they resumed their attacking

15 activities.

16 Q. In other words, they observed your order. The detachment observed

17 your order. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at another document that

21 was shown to you by the Prosecutor.

22 Can we put the document we have on our screens away now.

23 Let us look again at Exhibit 468.

24 While we're waiting for the document to show up, this is the order

25 of the 35th Division command at the IKM Babilon dated the 12th of

Page 3162

1 September, 1995.

2 I want to clarify one point with you. Look at the top part of the

3 document in Bosnian. Do you see the text added in handwriting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you read this out?

6 A. Can it be enlarged a bit? Can we zoom in a bit?

7 This isn't my handwriting. Somebody wrote "not forwarded."

8 Q. "Not forwarded."

9 Mr. Hasanagic, I would conclude based on that that the document

10 was not forwarded; in other words, it was not forwarded to the addressees.

11 Would I be right in making that inference?

12 A. Yes, that's what it says.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we close this

15 document now.

16 Q. In other words, the document was drafted. It was not forwarded,

17 and as a result, nobody received the document. Nobody read it.

18 A. That's what it says here.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness be

20 shown Exhibit 465. And I will be finishing with that one quite soon. I

21 mean this part of my examination.

22 Q. I believe you saw this document as well. This is a document of

23 the 35th Division dated the 7th of September, 1995. It bears your

24 signature. It relates to -- or rather, it is a supplement to the order

25 for attack from the commander of the 35th Division.

Page 3163

1 This is quite a short document. Could you please read it to

2 yourself. Can you read it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you agree with me that this document refers back to the

5 assessment of the situation and the agreement with the command of the El

6 Mujahedin Detachment and the command of the 3rd Battalion with a view to

7 the carrying out of a task under the Farz plan?

8 A. [No audible response]

9 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, is it not right that within the command and control

10 line you issue orders to units? This process does not involve any sort of

11 agreement.

12 A. Yes, since the units are one next to the other, they carry out

13 tasks together. That's called coordinated action. It is up to them to

14 see what the best way of proceeding is in carrying out this task. And

15 then I issue an order to them to proceed that way. They can, however,

16 proceed carrying out their task even without my order, because they are

17 units of the same rank.

18 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, had these been 3rd -- the 3rd and the 4th Manoeuvre

19 Battalions instead, would they have agreed upon how to proceed or would

20 you issue an order to them?

21 A. If they are carrying out orders and if they are neighbouring

22 units, then they would proceed to carry out that task and I would issue

23 them -- they would agree on how to proceed, and then I would issue an

24 order to them.

25 Q. Very well. Can we put this document away and I will resume my

Page 3164

1 examination after the break.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will take a break and come

3 back at quarter to 11.00.

4 Court adjourned.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

9 delaying our resumption of the proceedings, but I had to consult with the

10 Prosecutor on a matter which was very important for the continuation of my

11 cross-examination.

12 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, I will move to a different topic. The Prosecutor

13 showed you a series of documents, including a video clip concerning the El

14 Mujahedin Detachment. Do you recall watching the video clip? And I will

15 show it to you once again.

16 Can we have video VD9.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the benefit of the

18 transcript, before the video shows up, it's the same video clip that the

19 Prosecutor showed the witness on Monday. We only saw the image, the

20 video.

21 We have a new exhibit which also has the audio. We have

22 distributed the transcript of the video clip also to the interpreters.

23 Can we now play the video, please.

24 [Videotape played]

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 3165

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have distributed

2 copies of the transcript to the interpreters and we expect them to read.

3 At any rate, we also have these transcripts for you.

4 I invite the interpreters to read the transcript. It's D421.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we play the video from the

7 beginning.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they have a

9 transcript which has the numbering V000-6511. Is that the one

10 Madam Vidovic wants us to read?


12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just to make it quite

14 clear, the interpreters have transcript D421, and I wouldn't want to have

15 any confusion here.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't find the transcript by

17 that number.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. Can we

19 have the transcript distributed to the interpreters.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now the confusion seems to be extended. What you

21 just provided to the Bench, Ms. Vidovic, was the version which apparently

22 the interpreters also have; namely, Victor 000-6511.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is the video

24 clip. Can I clarify for the transcript.

25 This video appears under three different numbers in the records of

Page 3166

1 the Prosecution. The transcript is attached to the video clip and bears

2 number 421. We introduced the number in order to avoid confusion, since

3 the Prosecution has three different numbers: 6899, 6511 and 1719. This

4 is why we took the transcript and created it under number D421.

5 According to the explanation provided by the Prosecution in

6 relation to the transcript, we concluded that the video clip was one and

7 the same. It took us quite a long time to work this out.

8 I hope the interpreters now have the transcript.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that we do, yes.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please play the video, then.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] We are here to define who Mujahedin

13 are and why they came to this land. There is increasing discussion about

14 Mujahedin.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters just wish to note that we are

16 not providing an interpretation from Arabic. We are only reading the

17 transcript as provided to us.

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Why they came, who brought them to

19 this land? Who sent them? Do they receive salaries? Et cetera.

20 Then we found it is our duty to introduce the Mujahedin to you.

21 The Mujahedin are youth and matured men who felt the pain in their hearts

22 while watching the defeats and disasters that happened to their Islamic

23 nation, the last but not least what happened in Palestine and what is

24 happening in Bosnia today. They saw how the dignity of Muslim is insulted

25 on this land and how women raped and how children killed. When they saw

Page 3167

1 all these atrocities by their own hands, they sold what they own, left

2 their homelands and came here in order to defend Islam and Muslims.

3 Those Mujahedin came from several countries. They do not know

4 each other. No one should think they are here with blessings of their

5 governments. This is not true. It is also not true they are paid by

6 their countries to come here. They are here in response to the will of

7 God and his prophet.

8 The best proof that may back this argument is the graves that are

9 located not far from here, where bodies of 40 martyrs are barred. These

10 are martyrs among the best youth who did not spare their souls for the

11 sake of God and in defending Islam and Muslims. They are not expecting a

12 word of thanks, but only willing to get admitted into Paradise as wide as

13 the heavens and the earth, which the God prepared for faithful Muslims.

14 We must know that the Mujahedin fighter whom God grant victory

15 must achieve two things: Physical preparation that includes training and

16 weapon handling; and the spiritual preparation when he loves God, obey God

17 and have fear from him. Such fighter does not get into the battle alone

18 but with the company of God. The God will grant him victory and will

19 plant the fear in the hearts of his enemies. The good believer who has a

20 correct faith knows that the death can happen at any place, as God said in

21 Surrat Al-Nissa', "Wherever you are, death will catch up with you." He

22 knows that if a bomb attacks us now, it might kill all of us and if it

23 comes in the battle front line, it will kill us there. In addition, if

24 God wanted us to die in our homes and inside our sleeping rooms, we would

25 die there. Therefore, the Mujahid who has correct faith knows and realise

Page 3168

1 that death can come at any moment if God wanted that. Therefore, he is

2 not afraid from death...

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since obviously there

4 was no interpretation into Bosnian, although we did provide everything

5 that was needed to the interpreters, the Bosnian version too, I would

6 kindly ask the witness to read it now.

7 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Ms. Vidovic, while we are

8 waiting, I would like to know who made the translation from Arabic into

9 English.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we received the

11 interpretation, the translation, from the Office of the Prosecutor. I

12 suppose the Prosecutor can help us in that regard.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honours. Yes, I -- I can confirm

15 that during the pre-trial proceedings of this case, the Prosecution

16 employed a -- a certified Arabic translator, who handled the translation

17 of all of the Arabic videotapes. That was done under the auspices of

18 CLSS, who employed on a contractual basis an Arabic translator for this

19 limited purpose. And so these were all done by the Office of the

20 Prosecutor and disclosed to the Defence.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: But it is, I understand, an official translation.

23 MR. MUNDIS: It is indeed.

24 And I will also just indicate, my learned colleague a few moments

25 ago, in discussing the concept of three videotapes, just for the benefit

Page 3169

1 of the Chamber, a number of the tapes, not just the Arabic ones but the

2 other tapes, quite often were compilations. And what that means is that

3 sometimes the same brief clip appears on more than one exhibited videotape

4 simply because a number of them are compilations of -- of short clips from

5 various places. And that's what my learned colleague was referring to

6 when she said that this clip actually appears on three different

7 videotapes.

8 Our Arabic interpreter, when he encountered -- encountered such

9 duplications indicated that on a spreadsheet that he produced which he

10 provided to the Defence so that they know when certain material appears on

11 more than one tape. And that's what my learned colleague referred to

12 earlier.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we are on the subject of videotapes, can I

14 raise one little point which is not related to what we are talking about.

15 Yesterday in my office I received two videotapes: One from the Defence,

16 the other from the Prosecution. I have refrained from watching both of

17 them because I believe that evidence must be tendered in court. And I'm

18 raising it because I received both of the -- one -- each from either side.

19 I would like to get an explanation as to what those videos are

20 about and what am I supposed to do with them, because I don't intend

21 watching them -- I don't intend getting evidence in my office. I would

22 intend to get it in court.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I understand

24 it, we -- we submit a list of documents, and if it goes for a video, then

25 we hand it to a court clerk. And since I did not know about the Plenary

Page 3170

1 session yesterday, I presumed that this video was supposed to be used

2 yesterday in court, and this is the reason why you were delivered this

3 tape. That's my guess. I don't make it a habit of handing evidence

4 directly into the hands of the Bench.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now I understand. I just wanted to -- to

6 understand what is -- thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

7 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour also referred to a tape from the

9 Prosecution. The only such tape that I believe would have come from the

10 Prosecution was an annex to our filing concerning the tape that we've

11 sought leave to add to our exhibit list.

12 I -- I would hope that that's the one you're referring to. That's

13 the only one that I'm aware of that would have gone to the Trial Chamber

14 from the Prosecution. And that was an annex to our filing.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, thank you so much. At least that explains it.

16 Thank you.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And let me explain. The Bosnian

18 version of the tape, or the Bosnian translation that the witness is

19 reading right now, has been received by us from the OTP as an official

20 translation.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, did you manage to read the transcript of this video that

24 you just saw?

25 A. Is this a question to me?

Page 3171

1 Q. Yes, yes. Mr. Hasanagic, did you read it?

2 A. Yes, I did read it.

3 Q. When you saw this video clip for the first day, you identified

4 Mr. Aiman. And for the other person, you said you did not know who he

5 was. But now I'd like to ask you this, given that you've read the text of

6 what this person is saying in the video: Please, you told us that that

7 meeting took place sometime before Proljece II action, sometime in July.

8 Am I correct in saying so?

9 A. I'm not sure whether I said the date. I said that I think it was

10 during training, but I can't remember the exact date, but I'm sure that it

11 was before July or before September. Maybe even before September.

12 Q. Fine. What I'd like to ask you is as follows: It is apparent

13 that the person speaking is introducing the Mujahedin to you at this

14 meeting. Is that so?

15 A. I can't remember what he was saying then, but it seems so from

16 what I've read just now here.

17 Q. He explains who the Mujahedin were; is that so?

18 A. Yes, it is stated here in this text.

19 Q. He points out the fact that the people keep discussing the

20 Mujahedin; is that so?

21 A. Yes, this is so.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

23 MR. NEUNER: Just for -- the Prosecution is not clear whether

24 you're referring here to the words of Mr. Sha'ban or to the words of the

25 speaker who makes -- who speaks on the tape, so to speak, a kind of

Page 3172

1 background voice.

2 In the lines of question you're putting to this witness, it

3 appears to me that you're suggesting that Mr. Sha'ban has mentioned this.

4 If they could please be clarified.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would ask the

6 Prosecutor to refrain from mentioning names in the future.

7 It is perfectly clear what I'm discussing right now. On the basis

8 of the transcript that you saw, no speaker is being mentioned. We are

9 discussing the words of who you name as Sha'ban. And since the witness

10 has not identified that person --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I don't understand you. The

12 transcript that I have does mention the name Mr. Sha'ban and it mentions

13 the name Colonel Fadhil Hassan Aftish and it looks as if the speaker is

14 Colonel Fadhil Hassan Aftish.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may explain.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let's deal with

17 this objection. You're objecting to the --

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- the interpreter ... Yeah.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is seen here on

21 this sheet of paper that Anwar Sha'ban is speaking, but I don't want this

22 to be mentioned in the presence of the witness lest he should be

23 influenced. But I do not dispute that this is written here.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. But then, Madam Vidovic, you have given the

25 witness a -- a Bosnian transcript of this document. So he will have

Page 3173

1 seen --

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- these names, too, on this document.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise. Your Honour, you

5 are right. I'm completely baffled by this whole situation.

6 Another thing, when it says "Colonel Fadhil Hassan Aftish," this

7 is erroneous. We are discussing here Hasanagic. This is the witness's

8 name. What appears on screen is --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now you are testifying. What is written here is

10 "Colonel Fadhil Hassan Aftish." If there is anything wrong here, let the

11 witness correct it, not you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Q. Witness, do you agree - and if need be, you may be shown this

14 video again - is it correct that you appear on that video?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yes. You appear while the person in black outfit sporting a long

17 beard is speaking.

18 A. Yes. We sat down while he was speaking.

19 Q. Let me ask you this: Were you the only Colonel Fadil there at

20 that time?

21 A. Yes, I was the most senior officer in the area of responsibility,

22 so I -- yes, I think I was.

23 Q. Fine. May I continue my line of questioning, please, now.

24 That person, as it seems on the video, is explaining to you - this

25 person with the long beard in the black outfit - is explaining to you who

Page 3174

1 the Mujahedin are, how they arrived there, why they arrived there. Am I

2 correct in saying so?

3 A. I did not understand he -- what he was saying then. Now I read

4 this transcript and this confirms what you are saying right now.

5 Q. Please, do you agree that this person is discussing faith

6 predominantly? First that and then I'll ask you some other questions.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall at all the content or did you have a meeting on the

9 topic of faith at that time? Do you recall?

10 A. I don't recall it being mentioned.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this video be

12 marked for identification?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The video is being marked for identification. May

14 it please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll mark that for identification

16 as 492.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanagic, I'm going to ask you about the phenomenon of

20 the Mujahedin, of foreigners fighters in Bosnia. Is it true that they

21 tried to establish very close ties with the local Muslim population?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In their contacts with the population, they proselytized the

24 importance of faith; is that so?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3175

1 Q. They were particularly active on gathering the children. Is that

2 so?

3 A. Yes, this is so.

4 Q. Some local Imams or some local clergy accepted them as such.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Some local politicians as well.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At a certain point answering my questions today you said that

9 politicians from Zavidovici influenced them. Is that so?

10 A. I had information about that from the military security organ from

11 the division, and one such information or report was sent to the General

12 Staff.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Correction: From the military

14 security of the corps.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Let us clarify. Who was the addressee of that information from

17 the 35th Division?

18 A. Not from the 35th Division, through security organs work from the

19 3rd Corps, and this included the responsibility of the 35th Division.

20 They drafted a notice which I had no opportunity to see. That was sent,

21 most probably the 3rd Corps command had an insight into it, and as such it

22 was sent to the General Staff, which confirms what you're asking me about.

23 Q. Let us make this clear. That intelligence or that report

24 concerned the influence of local politicians and clergy on the Mujahedin.

25 Did I understand you correctly?

Page 3176

1 A. It was a lengthy brief and it stated that they were more

2 supportive of the Mujahedin than of the command of the 35th Division.

3 Q. So when you say "they," could you explain?

4 A. The current authorities in power in Zavidovici and in some other

5 places. I don't know exactly.

6 Q. When you mention "authorities," do you mean the civil authorities

7 or the military authorities?

8 A. The civil authorities -- civilian authorities, together with the

9 local Islamic community.

10 Q. Therefore, I understood you as saying that the brief contained

11 intelligence that the local authorities supported the El Mujahedin

12 Detachment more than they did the 35th Division. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Fine. Now I'm going to ask you something else about the

15 Mujahedin. Please, you testified that the El Mujahedin Detachment was for

16 a while re-subordinated to you, to the 35th Division. I would like to ask

17 you the following: It wouldn't be true at all if somewhere -- someone

18 were to think that all the Mujahedin who acted in Central Bosnia were

19 members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. I am correct when I say so?

22 A. Yes, you are correct. They did not wear any insignia. It was

23 very difficult to tell who they were, where they came from.

24 Q. Please, you knew that in the area of Central Bosnia there were

25 other groups of Mujahedin who never joined this detachment or who never

Page 3177

1 came under your competence.

2 A. I had information that there were Mujahedin or people with beards,

3 as they called them, in Zeljezno Polje, in Tesanj, in Zavidovici, in

4 Zenica, but no formal information reached me. This is something that I

5 learned from, you know ...

6 Q. You heard it from people who were not part of the BH army.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Those groups were never re-subordinated to you. The only

9 detachment that was re-subordinated to you was the El Mujahedin

10 Detachment.

11 A. I never knew who those groups were. I had the El Mujahedin

12 Detachment as a unit of the 3rd Corps re-subordinated to my division.

13 Q. Fine. Abu Zubair al-Halili's group was never re-subordinated to

14 you numbering 130 fighters.

15 A. I never heard about it.

16 Q. The unit of Abu Zubair al-Halili did not take part in combat

17 operations at the Vozuca during the Farz operation in September 1995 under

18 the command of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 A. Not under my command, no.

20 Q. Provided that such a unit did take part under the command of the

21 BH army and given that we are discussing your area of responsibility, you

22 would have been informed of such participation, wouldn't you?

23 A. Since the -- this was a corps operation which had its own axis,

24 then I would not be in a position to be informed, but I did not hear about

25 this unit during the preparation for that operation, no.

Page 3178

1 Q. You had meetings, preparatory meetings for the preparation of the

2 Farz operation with the command of the 3rd Corps.

3 A. Yes, at the IKM Luke.

4 Q. Please, did you hear that Abu Zubair al-Halili is supposed to take

5 part on the side of the BiH army in combat together with his 130

6 volunteers?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Also, did you hear that 120 humanitarian workers were supposed to

9 take part in combat together with him?

10 A. No.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can the witness be

12 shown map 11 from the map book. I'll ask the witness to indicate some

13 locations.

14 Map 11 is in the system. If we can't retrieve it from the system,

15 perhaps this map could be placed on the ELMO.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

17 MR. NEUNER: Or if I can assist my learned colleague. Map 11 has

18 the ERN 0618-6706.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Neuner.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, I believe you have the special pen --

22 Oh, yes, of course. You can't use it. My apologies. Can we just

23 have a regular pen, then.

24 Mr. Hasanagic, can you please indicate Borovnica for us on this

25 map.

Page 3179

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Can you show us the place called Gradac.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that in that area of ours this place is

5 referred to as a small town?

6 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is off. We could not

7 hear the witness.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Gradic. Referred to as Gradic.

10 A. I don't recall that. It says "Gradac" and "Ostric." [Marks]

11 Q. Very well. Can you show us Stog.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Very well. Can you please show us Djurica Vis.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, let me ask you this: In Operation Farz, you

16 mentioned three important elevation points in your evidence. Do you

17 recall that?

18 A. Which ones were they?

19 Q. Do you recall in the Ozren-Vozuca area the three important

20 elevation points?

21 A. Djurica Vis.

22 Q. Yes, that's one.

23 A. Kvrge, Podsijelovo, Blizna.

24 Q. Can you mark each and every one of them, please.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 3180

1 Q. Thank you. Can you mark the place called Kesten.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 Mr. Hasanagic, if I wanted to reach Djurica Vis from Stog, can you

5 please indicate for us the route I should take. Can you please draw that.

6 A. From what position?

7 Q. From Stog.

8 A. Stog, Kamenica, Prokop, Pejanovici [phoen], Kesten.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Kesten, Djurica Vis.

11 Q. Can you please draw a line from Stog via all the places you

12 mentioned.

13 A. Stog, Prokop, Vejanovici [phoen], Maljkovici [phoen], Djurica Vis.

14 Q. Can you do that both ways, draw both of these routes from Stog.

15 A. One goes via Kesten to Djurica Vis, and the other one across

16 Maljkovici to Djurica Vis.

17 Q. Thank you. If I wanted to go in the direction of Ozren and Doboj,

18 how would that look like on this map?

19 A. Djurica Vis, Orlovac, Podsijelovo, Ljecani [phoen] and further

20 down.

21 Q. Can you please draw the route for us again.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hasanagic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this map be admitted as an

25 exhibit, please, Your Honours.

Page 3181

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it be given

2 an exhibit number. Just a second, ma'am. Let's finish --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honour.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 493, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, let me ask you this in connection with what we've

9 just discussed. The unit I mentioned, Abu -- the unit of Abu Uzair

10 al-Halili -- or rather, Abu Zubair al-Halili, Abu Zubair al-Halili, did

11 you have any information of it fighting at Stog?

12 A. No.

13 Q. At Gradac?

14 A. No.

15 Q. In the direction of Djurica Vis?

16 A. No.

17 Q. In the direction of Ozren?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 Let me ask you this: In September of 1995 in Vozuca, was the

21 Handale unit re-subordinated to you?

22 A. No. I -- I've never heard of this unit.

23 Q. Did you ever in conversations with the command of the 3rd Corps as

24 part of the preparations hear that this unit was supposed to take part in

25 combat activities in any way possible?

Page 3182

1 A. No.

2 Q. Finally, let me ask you this: Did you hear of the participation

3 of any other Arabs in addition to the El Mujahedin Detachment?

4 A. Prior to the operation, no.

5 Q. And after the operation?

6 A. After the operation, there were discussions about some Arabs

7 having taken part in it, but they were not under my command.

8 Q. Did you hear that they were under the command of anyone from the

9 BH army?

10 A. I don't know. I didn't hear.

11 Q. Very well. At one point, you told us that it was difficult to

12 distinguish between Arabs. Even you found it difficult. It was difficult

13 to distinguish members of the El Mujahedin Detachment from other Arabs, if

14 any were present in the area.

15 A. They did not wear any insignia of the BH army. They had their

16 specific clothing. I don't know how to call it. And they all sported

17 these long beards.

18 Q. Not even your fighters were able to distinguish between them?

19 A. I don't believe they were, but I can't state that with certainty.

20 Q. Generally speaking, there was little -- very little knowledge

21 among members of the BH army of the Arabs members of the El Mujahedin

22 Detachment.

23 A. Yes, we had very little knowledge even in the division command.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will move on to a

Page 3183

1 different topic now. Can the witness be shown Exhibit 443 now, please.

2 Thank you.

3 Q. The Prosecutor put questions to you about this document.

4 Unfortunately, Mr. Neuner did not have this document close at hand, and

5 that's the document you're referring to in this order. I will show you

6 that document later on.

7 What I want you to do now is to take a good look at this document

8 again. In particular, look at the number to which this order of yours

9 refers to; that's the say, the order of the 18th of July, 1995. Do you

10 see that in the first sentence --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the order -- could the English, please, be --

12 now can we see the order itself.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I'm

14 quite tired by now. The title is not "Order" but "Report."

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to see if -- below the word "Report."

16 Thank you very much.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, look at this and tell me if you agree that in the

19 preamble the document says: "Pursuant to the order of the General Staff

20 of the army, number" -- and the number is 1/825-1306 -- "of the 17th of

21 July, 1995." I want you to bear this number in mind, please. I want to

22 show you this other document that the present report refers to.

23 Can the present document be closed and can the witness be shown

24 document PT2253.

25 Witness, you were able to see that the earlier document referred

Page 3184

1 to some combat activities on the part of the El Mujahedin. I'm referring

2 to that earlier document where you mention the document of the General

3 Staff.

4 Don't look at the document we have on our screens now. I'm asking

5 you about the document we had here earlier on.

6 A. Yes, I saw that document just a moment ago.

7 Q. Very well. Now look at this document of the General Staff of the

8 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which bears the number 1/825-1306. Do you see

9 that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you agree that this is the same number you referred to in your

12 order?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Before we turn to the contents of this document, please tell the

15 Trial Chamber if Zepa and Srebrenica were the most threatened enclaves

16 which were purportedly protected by the United Nations in 1995.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the English please be scrolled up. We want

19 to see the order, please.

20 You know, whatever is on -- on the B/C/S, we want to see it in

21 English.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we scroll up, please, to -- to see to the --

24 no. We want to be able to see where it ends. Like, the B/C/S shows the

25 stamp here.

Page 3185

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Where is 1? Can we see 1, please. Is it on

3 the first page?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] On the first page.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: "Immediately undertake ..."

6 Okay, you can go to the next page now. Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Right.

8 Q. I asked you about Srebrenica and Zepa. Do you agree that this

9 document primarily refers to Srebrenica and Zepa?

10 A. Yes. This was the period of time when Srebrenica and Zepa fell

11 and all the other events we know a lot about transpired.

12 Q. These other events involved the massacre or the genocide committed

13 against the Muslims in the area.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And now, please, take a look at page 1.

16 If we can have page 1 in the English for the benefit of the Bench,

17 please.

18 Please, can you see this order which concerns taking active or

19 combat operations and is sent to the command post of the 1st, 3rd, 4th,

20 and 7th Corps of the army? Can you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you agree that this order concerns the relief of the front line

23 around Zepa? Is that true?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You can see that this order refers to another order of the General

Page 3186

1 Staff. Please remember this number, 1/825-1279, dated the 16th of July,

2 1995.

3 And now please take a look at item 2 of this order. And do you

4 agree that it reads: "Undertake immediate measures to minimise the

5 time required to launch attacks within Operation 'T'"?

6 Now I would like to ask you to clarify things. Operation "T" is

7 the operation attempting to lift the siege around Sarajevo.

8 A. I did not know this code name, but I know that this refers to that

9 operation to relieve the siege of Sarajevo. This is the first time I see

10 this code name.

11 Q. Fine. Do you agree that that operation unfolded at the end of

12 July 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Very well. I'd like to hear from you the following: As far as I

15 understand you, you said that you saw this code name "T" for the first

16 time here. This means that you did not receive this order. Is that so?

17 A. It was together with the corps commander's order, and this is why

18 in my order I cited both orders, because of the very serious nature of the

19 situation that we were in at the time.

20 Q. Very well.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going into great

22 detail because of count 30 of the indictment, which -- and this is why I'm

23 dwelling on these orders.

24 Your Honours, may I tender this document into evidence.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 3187

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 494, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- I apologise. I said

5 paragraph 3, not count 30 of the indictment.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paragraph 3? Paragraph 3, madam?

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 30, Your Honours. 30.

8 I would like the witness to take a look at a map.

9 Your Honours, could we have this map placed on the ELMO, because

10 it is very difficult -- it's unintelligible if it's in an electronic

11 format.

12 Your Honours, we obtained this map from another case. I would

13 like the witness to mark Zepa and Srebrenica on this map.

14 Q. Could you place a rectangle around Zepa and Srebrenica or maybe

15 mark them with an "X" so that we can tell them apart from other markings.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to note that there are already markings

17 on this map, circular markings.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that, Your Honours.

19 And this is why I instructed the witness to place an "X" next to the

20 desired places so that we can tell that apart from other markings.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Note: Could the witness speak

22 into the microphone. The interpreter could not hear the response.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter could not hear what the witness

24 said. If the witness could please speak into the microphone.

25 Could you repeat yourself, Mr. Interpreter -- Mr. Witness.

Page 3188

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said that

2 he could not see where Zepa was.

3 Q. Go left, left, left, and lower. There you are. This is Zepa.

4 And please place an "X" so that we can --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, who is testifying?

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness is hard of --

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but if he can't see it, he can't see it.

8 Then we don't show it. Otherwise, you must take the stand, Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It happens to the Prosecutor as

10 well, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I haven't seen the Prosecutor -- I haven't heard

12 the Prosecutor saying "go down, down, there it is." I've never heard

13 that. I'm hearing this for the first time.

14 And you asked -- you asked the witness to make a rectangle. He

15 keeps making circles. Remember, this map has prior markings which are

16 also circular. That's right.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, could you please put in your handwriting "Zepa" above

21 this circle, and this is -- make it a distinguishing mark. So please

22 write "Zepa" in your handwriting.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. And next to "Srebrenica," please write "Srebrenica."

25 A. [Marks]

Page 3189

1 Q. Yes. And please place an "X" next to Srebrenica. Thank you.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Your Honours --

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since this issue

5 cropped up a bit late, we were not in a position to obtain an unmarked map

6 of this area.

7 Q. Very well. So could we --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Cropped up late, Madam Vidovic? Which issue

9 cropped up late?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

11 translation -- interpretation into Bosnian at this moment.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I understood it right now.

14 Well, to wit, the witness testified about the General Staff's

15 order from -- that one referred to in the previous document. So I had to

16 check which order it was and find a map to see what it referred to. The

17 issue from the Exhibit 443, which makes mention of the General Staff's

18 order dated 17th of July, 1995, which Mr. Neuner said he did not have to

19 show the witness, and I made haste to find it so I can show it to the

20 witness so that he -- he can see what it went on about. And, of course, I

21 wanted to locate that -- that on the map.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May this map be admitted into

24 evidence, please.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please

Page 3190

1 be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 495, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, could you please take PT2244.

6 Can we have it shown to the witness, please.

7 Your Honours, this is another document of the General Staff of the

8 army, number 1/825-1276, dated the 16th of July, 1995.

9 Witness, please can you confirm that you see the number and the

10 date.

11 A. Yes. I can see that.

12 Q. You remember that a couple of minutes ago I asked you to memorise

13 that number? Because the General Staff's order that we saw a couple of

14 minutes before this document appeared on the screen refers to that number.

15 Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And for this reason, I would like you to take a look at it. And

18 please read this document.

19 Witness, please, do you agree that this order was delivered to the

20 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, and 7th Corps?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you agree that this order also refers to the new

23 developments in Zepa and Srebrenica and the suggestion of the President of

24 the Presidency?

25 A. Yes. This is stated in the preamble.

Page 3191

1 Q. Do you agree that what is ordered -- and if the Bench could be

2 shown the page -- page 1 of the English version, it would be most useful

3 for them.

4 Do you agree that what is ordered are active combat activities to

5 relieve the position of Zepa and parts of our forces that are located at

6 Cerska, Kamenica and Konjevic Polje. That's at item 3, Your Honours. Can

7 we scroll down the English version or maybe go to the next page of the

8 English version. Can you see that, Your Honours?

9 So, Witness, activities are ordered to relieve the positions in

10 Zepa, Cerska, Kamenica, Konjevic Polje.

11 Now I would like to ask you the following: These are forces or

12 parts of forces which those days suffered from horrendous pressure from

13 the Serbian forces. You know where Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and Kamenica

14 are located? Do you know that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Am I correct in saying that this would be the wider Srebrenica

17 area?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you agree that by this order, the General Staff is trying

20 to alleviate the influence and the effect of the Serb forces in that

21 areas, those Serb forces who had by that point massacred thousands of

22 prisoners of war?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Please, could you tell me, would it be erroneous to say that this

25 order and the previous one dated the 17th of July represent an order

Page 3192

1 ordering attacks in the Vozuca and Ozren areas?

2 A. This is a general order, and divisions received their specific

3 orders from corps commands.

4 Q. Yes, I accept that. But what I am asking you is this: I am

5 asking you about this order and the order that you saw a couple of minutes

6 ago. Please, would it be erroneous to believe that this order represents

7 an order to act against the Ozren and Vozuca pockets?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a -- sorry.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was going to ask something, but let me defer to

12 counsel for the Prosecution.

13 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution might have understood the last line

14 of questioning. I just want to put an observation on the record. The

15 order just shown has the number - and I'm referring to the Broj number -

16 1/825-1276. And the Prosecution believes that the previous order - I

17 think it's Exhibit 494 - has referred to the order 1/825-1279, not to this

18 document, which is 1276. But the Prosecution may have understood.

19 I see here that the number shown as "1276" at the end and not

20 "1279", as Exhibit 494 is referring to.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could you bear with me

25 a couple of minutes.

Page 3193

1 At any rate, we are nearing our break. I do understand what my

2 learned friend is going on about, and I'm going to provide an answer after

3 the break, because we have three different orders here.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, let me put this to you, which I wanted to

5 raise with you, so that when you answer your learned friend you can answer

6 me too: I have a difficulty with your question that says, "Please, would

7 it be erroneous to believe that this order represents an order to act

8 against the Ozren and Vozuca pockets." I would like facts from this

9 witness, not his beliefs.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I've understood Your Honour's --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Deal with that when we come back.

12 Court adjourned. We'll come back at --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- 12.30.

15 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before answering my question - and I know you still

18 have to answer your learned colleague's question, Madam Vidovic - I would

19 like to elaborate a little bit on my question.

20 You -- you talk of "believe" here, and you're linking operations

21 in Zepa and Srebrenica with operations in Vozuca and Ozren areas, and you

22 link them through a belief.

23 I -- actually, as you have been asking questions, I've been

24 wondering at the relevance of Srebrenica to this case.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

Page 3194

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me finish.

2 Now, just when I was about to ask you the question, that's when

3 you mentioned this question that it's reasonable to believe that the --

4 the two are one and the same thing. So as you deal with the question that

5 I put to you, I would like you also to deal with how you want to connect

6 Zepa and Srebrenica, on the one hand, with Vozuca and Ozren, on the other

7 through a belief.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in any case, I

9 understand and I will rephrase my question. However, I should first like

10 to answer the first part of that question.

11 In paragraph 30 of the indictment, the Prosecutor says that my

12 client on the 15th and the 16th -- apologies, on the 16th and the 17th of

13 July ordered an attack against the Ozren and Vozuca pockets. The

14 pre-trial brief refers to -- specifically to these two orders. And this

15 is the reason why I have been belabouring my point on these two orders.

16 I will now rephrase my question. I do accept that it was quite

17 unclear.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paragraph 30, Madam Vidovic?

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 30 of the indictment.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, paragraph 30 is silent on Srebrenica and

21 Zepa. It says nothing about those two.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. At long last.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your learned friend --

Page 3195

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your learned friend is on his feet.

3 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: If I could just offer one brief point of

5 clarification. Neither the Prosecution's indictment nor our pre-trial

6 brief mention "Srebrenica." There is a reference to "Zepa" in our

7 pre-trial brief at paragraph 30.2, which, of course, the way we structured

8 our pre-trial brief is such that it follows from paragraph 30. So I do

9 want to indicate that there is a reference citing to a document that

10 refers to "Zepa," which is in our pre-trial brief, but there is no

11 reference to Srebrenica in the Prosecution's pre-trial brief nor in the

12 indictment.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor refers

15 to these two orders specifically.

16 Let us not discuss these matters for too long, but the Prosecutor

17 states --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Tell us what ...

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor refers to these two

20 orders and says: "General Delic ordered" -- or rather, "On the 16th and

21 the 17th, General Delic ordered the attacks against Ozren, Vozuca

22 pockets." He substantiates that with these two PT documents. This is why

23 I believe that I must clarify what these two documents are about.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: I don't want to belabour the point, but I do believe

Page 3196

1 accuracy is important here.

2 Paragraph 30.2 of the pre-trial brief, which I'm looking at,

3 consists of one sentence, and it says: "On 16 and 17 July 1995, Delic

4 ordered 'active operations' toward Zepa and Kamenica." And there is then

5 a footnote, it's footnote 295 in our pre-trial brief, which refers to

6 three documents, two of which my learned colleague has referred to. So

7 there are -- there are three documents cited, two of which bear the PT

8 numbers that -- that have been discussed with this witness this morning.

9 But I want to be absolutely clear in terms of accuracy as to what

10 we said in our pre-trial brief.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

13 Your Honours, please, this is a very important matter indeed.

14 First, I am speaking of the indictment and the Prosecutor has referred to

15 the pre-trial brief.

16 I state that in paragraph 30 of the indictment, it is stated that

17 he had ordered an attack against the Ozren and Vozuca pockets, unless

18 I've ...

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: We agree with you on that point. What we are

20 saying, ma'am, is that that same paragraph 30 does not say anything about

21 Zepa and Srebrenica.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we just briefly

23 place on the ELMO the list of exhibits sent to us of documents used for

24 the proofing of Witness Hasanagic. There you will see --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't dispute that.

Page 3197

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, could we just do that, in

2 order to clear this matter up fully.

3 The Prosecutor gives an interpretation of this order to mean as an

4 order for the action against Vozuca -- the order for Proljece action.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: I have also a question. [Interpretation] I

7 understand, Mrs. Vidovic, that you say in the orders mentioned by the

8 Prosecutor we don't see any reference to the Ozren operation, the

9 Ozren-Vozuca, rather, operation. It only refers to Zepa and Srebrenica.

10 However, if I'm not mistaken, the witness also told us today that they

11 received other details, but the Prosecutor did not show other documents

12 where these details would figure. Is that right?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

14 Your Honours, we have managed to -- to double-check this now. In

15 paragraph 30 of the indictment, there is mention of the order for an

16 attack against the Ozren-Vozuca pocket; whereas, in the pre-trial brief,

17 this section is substantiated with these two documents relating to Zepa

18 and Srebrenica. This is something I'm trying to clarify today. Do you

19 understand?

20 Please, Your Honours, if we could have a look at the list that I

21 provided.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We can --

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Vidovic, I think we got the point. You don't

Page 3198

1 need to explore this any further. And we would then expect the

2 Prosecution in re-examination to clarify the issue of -- of these two

3 orders, whether they relate to -- to Mount Ozren or to Zepa/Srebrenica.

4 But let's wait until you get there. And you may continue,

5 Ms. Vidovic.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have a look at

7 the document which contains part of the list. It describes number 2253 --

8 or rather, it relates to PT2253. I would like you to see that.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will do that, madam. I promise you. But your

10 learned friend was on his feet, so let's just hear what he's got to say.

11 Mr. Neuner. Okay. Fine. Can we look at that.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the counsel.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we zoom in on

16 that to see the PT number as well, 2253: "Order regarding undertaking

17 active combat activities (Kamenica, Operation Proljece). Order signed by

18 Rasim Delic to the commanders of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, 1st to

19 7th Corps. The order refers to Operation 'T', which appears to relate to

20 Zepa and Srebrenica."

21 But look at the first part of it, which links it up with Operation

22 Proljece. This is the reason why I've been exploring this.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've made your point. That's why Judge Harhoff

24 had said you didn't need to do that. But fine. Thank you so much. You

25 may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

Page 3199

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, we still have one matter pending in relation to the last

3 document we looked at.

4 Cerska, Kamenica, Konjevic Polje are not part of the Vozuca area,

5 are they?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. They are not.

8 A. No.

9 Q. In other words, this order does not relate to the attack on Ozren

10 and Vozuca, the order per se. Am I right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be

14 admitted into evidence, please. And I have one more remark to make.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Colleague Neuner was right with

17 regard to the number. There is a third order relating to Zepa. In an

18 attempt to shorten my cross-examination, I left this order out. We will

19 be able to see the order through a different witness. I just wanted to

20 state that my learned friend Neuner was right.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, has this last document

23 been given an exhibit number? I wasn't following.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not yet. May it please be given an exhibit number.

25 It is admitted into evidence.

Page 3200

1 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 496, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

4 another map. Can it be placed on the ELMO, please.

5 I want to draw the Bench's attention to the fact that there are

6 some markings from before, and I will give careful instructions to the

7 witness as to how to place his markings.

8 Q. Witness, please focus on the top left part of the map.

9 Could we please zoom in on the top left part of the map as far as

10 possible. No, no, we must see the edge of the map, the -- the edge of the

11 map must be there as well, the top left corner. That's right. Could it

12 be centred. Thank you. This is fine.

13 Witness, first of all, show us Kamenica on this map, if you can

14 see it. Look at the top left corner.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Thank you. Can you please circle it.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. That's fine. Place an "X" next to it as you did with the earlier

19 map.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Then I should like you to find Konjevic Polje. It's somewhere in

22 the vicinity of the river, if I can assist you, to save time.

23 Your Honours, I can only have the witness search for it for a long

24 time. It must be somewhere down there by the river.

25 A. Yes, there is Konjevic.

Page 3201

1 Q. And quite close to it we have Konjevic Polje. Can you mark it,

2 please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Yes, that's right. Place an "X" next to it.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Right. Now go back to the top part of the map in parallel to this

7 and see if you can find the area of Cerska. It's written in italics. You

8 were right above it just a moment ago.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you. Yes, place an "X" next to it.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Witness, do you agree that this is the Drina Valley area,

13 Podrinje?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you also agree that this area is not even remotely

16 close to the Ozren-Vozuca pocket?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this map be

20 admitted into evidence.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: For -- for those of us who do not know the

22 geography of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is it possible on this map to indicate

23 the area of Ozren-Vozuca pocket? Just to -- just to see it in relation to

24 these two -- these areas.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is not in the

Page 3202

1 same part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. But may I ask another question: Witness, do you agree that this

3 area is part of Eastern Bosnia, of the Podrinje or the River Drina basin?

4 Could you explain to Their Honours where the Ozren-Vozuca area is located?

5 What is the distance?

6 A. This is the area of Eastern Bosnia. Zavidovici and Vozuca are

7 part of Central Bosnia, next to the Bosna River, but I don't know the

8 distance. These are along the rivers Bosna and Krivaja.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 May we have this map admitted, please.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map is admitted into evidence. May it please

13 be given an exhibit number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 497, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May we put this map away and have

17 the witness see document 458 -- correction, Exhibit 458.

18 For the transcript, this is a combat report of the 35th Division

19 dated 23rd of July, 1995.

20 Q. Witness, the Prosecutor showed you this document, and I don't want

21 us to waste much time discussing it. Do you recall it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If we can use the good services of the usher to see page 2 of this

24 document. May we see page 2 of this Exhibit 458. Second page, please.

25 And the second page of the English version as well.

Page 3203

1 Witness, now I'm going to ask you very specifically to focus on

2 the portion shown to you by the Prosecutor, which would be the end of the

3 first paragraph on the second page of the Bosnian version.

4 And may the subsequent page of the English version be shown. So

5 the next page of the English version. Could you scroll down a bit,

6 please. No, it's the next page in the English version. I believe that

7 this is right now.

8 Witness, please, while we waited for the English version to appear

9 on the screen, that you had an opportunity to peruse the part of the

10 Bosnian version that we're interested in.

11 To wit, it is stated here that during the command post of Klek and

12 the command post of the 35th Division, the commander of the 3rd Corps

13 visited those locations, as well as General Karisik.

14 A. Yes, this is stated here.

15 Q. The Prosecutor asked you yesterday who General Karisik was, what

16 was his position, and in response to that you said: "He was a member of

17 the General Staff. I don't know what his function was."

18 Do you recall your answer?

19 A. Yes, this is how I answered.

20 Q. Well, can we put this document away, Your Honours, please, and can

21 we have the document D424 be shown to the witness.

22 And for the transcript, this document is an order of the

23 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina dated 24th of

24 February, 1994.

25 Let's wait for the English version to appear on the screen. Your

Page 3204

1 Honours, we've managed to translate this introductory part so that it can

2 be seen that this is an order by the Presidency.

3 Witness, do you agree that this document purports that the

4 Presidency adopted this decision?

5 A. I see in the introduction that the Presidency has adopted this

6 order.

7 Q. Very well. May the witness be shown the next page of this

8 document in both versions.

9 This is an order appointing people to different duties; is that

10 correct, Witness?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness, I would like you to look at this. And do you agree that

13 this order was adopted on the 26th of February, 1994 and that it is signed

14 by the President of the Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please focus on item 3, at the top of the page, which states: "In

17 order to regulate the state of the service, within the scope of its

18 authority, the following are transferred to the Ministry of Defence of the

19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

20 Now please take a look at the penultimate name, "Karisik/father's

21 name Meho/Meho, Brigadier General, chief of the administration for

22 training, schooling rules and regulations of the Main Staff of the Army of

23 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

24 And now take a look at item 4, please: "Military officers

25 mentioned in this order are released from the duties they performed until

Page 3205

1 now, and the order shall be carried out immediately."

2 And in connection with this, I would like to ask you as follows:

3 The only general with the family name of Karisik in the structure of the

4 General Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was Mr. Meho Karisik? Am

5 I correct in saying so?

6 A. I can't confirm that because I don't know whether others bore the

7 same family name, but I knew that Karisik was in the General Staff and

8 this is why I testified to that effect. But I had not seen this order

9 until then and haven't seen it until now.

10 Q. But do you allow for the possibility that at the time when

11 General Karisik -- or when you saw General Karisik at that command post,

12 that you did not know his function?

13 A. I did not know of -- of this order. I did not see his function.

14 I -- when I left Sarajevo, I knew -- know that he was performing the

15 duties that I testified about.

16 Q. Do you allow for a possibility that in the meantime he changed his

17 post and went to the Ministry of Defence?

18 A. This order speaks very eloquently to that effect, but if I erred,

19 this was not intentional.

20 Q. By all means. I did not want to impute anything of the sort.

21 Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document be

23 tendered into evidence, please.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, I fail to understand what the

25 relevance of this is. Can you please explain to us.

Page 3206

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, asked by the

2 Prosecutor about a document, about the document Exhibit 458 that we saw a

3 couple of minutes ago, the witness stated that -- that General Karisik was

4 present in the -- in his capacity as a member of the General Staff. And I

5 am showing and demonstrating by this document that he was there in a

6 capacity of somebody from the Ministry of Defence.

7 If this is not clear, I can ask supplementary questions, if

8 needed.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: What would be the consequence of him being present

10 as a member of -- as a representative of the Ministry of Defence rather

11 than as a general?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Not as a general but as a member of

13 the General Staff.

14 The witness said that he was part of the General Staff, being

15 present at the command post during the Farz operation against the Vozuca

16 pocket.


18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a different --

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: So I understand that what we are supposed to learn

20 from this document is that in the command post during the Ozren attack,

21 there were a number of people present. One of them was General Karisik,

22 and General Karisik was there, you are saying, not as a member of the

23 General Staff but as a member of the Ministry of Defence. Is that

24 correct?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

Page 3207

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: And so what? What is the significance of this?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first, this was the

3 issue broached by the Prosecutor concerning Karisik.

4 If you ask me what is the difference, it's huge because the

5 Ministry of Defence is a body of the government and the General Staff is

6 something completely different. And the difference lies in this:

7 General Karisik would be reporting to the Minister of Defence and not to

8 my client, if I may put it this way.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay. I now at least understand where you were

10 going, although the full meaning of it is still unclear to me. But what

11 may become clear in the re-examination. Let's hope so. Thank you very

12 much.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a matter

14 broached by the --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Can the parties please wait for the

16 interpretation to be finished.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

18 continues] ... visiting points made by the Prosecutor.

19 May this document be given --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just ask one question, because I use my

21 background as a point of reference here.

22 Do I understand that the army in Bosnia-Herzegovina is not part of

23 the Department of Defence?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this puts me in a

25 position where I would have to testify and provide a lengthy --

Page 3208

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, we can ask the witness.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Ah, you mean the witness? I am not

3 sure whether this witness is capable of explaining that.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, he can say --

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The ministry is part of the

6 government.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: He can say he doesn't know if he doesn't.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, I'm not sure whether you can or cannot, but can you

10 provide a response to this question?

11 A. I cannot provide a response. I don't know. This is not known to

12 me.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The document is admitted into

14 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 498, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we put this document away,

19 please.

20 I would like the witness to see Exhibit 460, for it to be shown

21 again. It is a document of the 35th Division's command dated the 2nd of

22 August, 1995.

23 Can we have the witness look at page 2. Page 2, please. Of the

24 English version as well.

25 Q. Witness -- but let's first wait for the page 3 of the English

Page 3209

1 version to appear on the screen. Fine.

2 Witness, you will probably remember that while answering the

3 Prosecutor's questions you mentioned a meeting at the headquarters of the

4 35th Division's command.

5 If we can scroll down the English version, please, so that

6 paragraph (c) is shown.

7 Can you see that?

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, I referred to

9 pages 21 and 22 of the transcripts of the proceedings on the 25th of

10 September, 2007.

11 Q. In connection with this meeting, Witness, you said something which

12 I'd like us to clarify. You stated that that day you had a brief meeting

13 with General Delic and President Izetbegovic. Did I understand you

14 correctly to say that that meeting took place in the headquarters of your

15 division's command?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were the host there, weren't you?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. The President of the State and the commander of the army visited

20 you -- I mean, commander of the Main Staff of the army.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you mentioned that at a certain point you learned from your

23 duty officer that some Mujahedin had passed through the corridor.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Next you said that in the corridor of the building, you saw

Page 3210

1 Mr. Aiman.

2 A. I said that I saw him earlier on.

3 Q. Pardon me?

4 A. I said that I had seen him earlier, as I arrived there to wait for

5 the President and the commander.

6 Q. Does this mean that you did not see him in that very corridor but

7 whilst they were seated in the office -- but, rather, that you had seen

8 him before?

9 A. Yes, before.

10 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: You did not organise any

11 meetings on that day for the President of the Presidency and the commander

12 of the staff together with the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

13 A. I didn't.

14 Q. And you were there in that building, weren't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Had a meeting been held there, could anybody have barged in on

17 them having that meeting or would you have had to have about it?

18 A. I would have had to know about it.

19 Q. In other words, you never said in your evidence that they had met

20 there with the Mujahedin; is that right?

21 A. I don't understand the question.

22 Q. Please, in your testimony here, you did not tell us that

23 Izetbegovic and Delic had a meeting at the time. You only said that you

24 saw them pass through the corridor, the Mujahedin.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3211

1 Q. Thank you for this clarification. It remained rather unclear and

2 open to a conclusion that they had had a meeting there with the Mujahedin.

3 That's why I wanted to clarify this.

4 Did you understand my question fully?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can put this

8 document away now.

9 I would wish to put a line of questions to the witness concerning

10 a different subject matter.

11 Q. Witness, I would like to put several questions to you concerning

12 the logistics of the El Mujahedin Detachment. The Prosecutor showed you

13 Exhibits 450, 451, and 457, which concerned the allocation of materiel and

14 technical equipment to the El Mujahedin Detachment.

15 I want the witness to look at one of these documents; namely, 450,

16 Exhibit 450.

17 Witness, do you see the document? Based on this document, one

18 could conclude that you supplied some materiel and technical equipment.

19 The same could be inferred from some other documents. However, I want to

20 put to you the following, which is the truth concerning the supplying of

21 the El Mujahedin Detachment: You gave them only a small quantity of

22 materiel and technical equipment. What is true is that they had their own

23 sources of logistics supply -- logistics support.

24 A. Yes, they did have their own sources of logistics. This was

25 merely an addition of what was in short supply at the time. I received

Page 3212

1 this in turn from the corps command.

2 Q. When you say you received it from the corps command, you received

3 it for the 35th Division and then distributed it further down; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes. This could be the case. It could be the case that I

6 received the supplies directly for them or that I received them for the

7 35th Division and then distributed it down also to them. It could be that

8 I had no other way but to supply them with the logistics supplies that I

9 had at my disposal, given that it was on the eve of the attack.

10 Q. But will you agree with me that this was an exception, that as a

11 rule the El Mujahedin Detachment had their own logistics?

12 A. Yes, they had their own logistics.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

14 336. Exhibit 336. This isn't the one. This is one of the documents we

15 used in Sarajevo, and I don't think this is the one I'm looking for.

16 Can you please show 337.

17 Q. Witness, please look at this document. For the benefit of the

18 record, this is an excerpt from a diary.

19 Witness, I will not be asking you about the document per se, since

20 I don't think you've ever seen it. I will ask you, however, to read two

21 or three sentences.

22 Under the heading "Humanitarian organisation from Kuwait" -- can

23 we have the English version scrolled down a bit.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner is on his feet.

25 MR. NEUNER: Could I just ask that a proper foundation is being

Page 3213

1 laid in relation to this document. My learned friend just mentioned that

2 the witness probably has never seen this document. What is the basis on

3 which Mr. Hasanagic is confronted with this piece of evidence? Thank you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The foundation is in the several

6 previous answers by Mr. Hasanagic to the fact that the Mujahedin had their

7 own logistics in essence. I want to explore with the witness some of the

8 facts mentioned herein. I want to see whether Mr. Hasanagic can help us

9 with establishing what the basis of logistics the Mujahedin had was.

10 MR. NEUNER: I understand what my learned friend wants to do, and

11 just as a proposal, maybe I see here already "Kuwaiti humanitarian

12 organisation" shows up in this excerpt. Maybe my colleague can first put

13 a couple of questions relating to this organisation to Mr. Hasanagic and

14 then find out whether he knows anything about it and then move ahead in

15 showing this document. This is just a proposal from my side.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This wouldn't be a difficulty;

17 however, the colleague is currently engaged in cross-examination and not

18 in direct examination. This would be my duty if I were examining the

19 witness in direct. In cross-examination, I am not required to do so.

20 At any rate --

21 Q. Witness, did you know that Islamic humanitarian organisations

22 provided direct logistical support to the El Mujahedin Detachment? Was

23 this common knowledge out in the field?

24 A. There were stories around. I did not have any accurate

25 information.

Page 3214

1 Q. Very well. Can you tell us what stories you heard about who

2 provided logistics support to the detachment. You say that there were

3 many stories circulating.

4 A. We heard that they had the support of humanitarian organisations.

5 This is something that the civilians talked about, not the soldiers.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we have this

7 document put away.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, please.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Unless we resolve the request we filed yesterday, I will not be

12 able to engage in the basic activity, not even switching on my microphone.

13 Q. Witness, I hope we will complete the examination soon. I am sure

14 you must be tired too.

15 I want to put some questions to you concerning prisoners of war,

16 since the Prosecutor examined you in detail on that matter. Do you recall

17 the Prosecutor asking you about the prisoners of war of the El Mujahedin

18 Detachment in the action carried out in the month of July 1995? Do you

19 recall that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He showed you that you had informed the 3rd Corps of these POWs.

22 Do you remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In connection with this, I want you to look at document PT2480

25 of -- dated the 25th of August, 1995.

Page 3215

1 Before the document appears on our screens, I want to ask you

2 this: You said that you didn't recall whether the 3rd Corps responded to

3 your brief concerning the POWs -- or rather, concerning the fact that

4 access to the POWs was being denied.

5 A. I believe that I put it that way. I don't recall.

6 Q. You said that you didn't know whether the 3rd Corps responded at

7 all; is that right?

8 A. I don't know if this is what I answered in those exact words. I

9 don't remember. But at any rate, I did not have any -- I did not receive

10 any feedback.

11 Q. Very well. Let's look at document PT2480, dated the 29th of

12 August, 1995. Please have a look at it.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, can I suggest that you don't give us

14 the dates of these documents before they appear. This is the second

15 mistake you are making on a date.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness, do you agree that this is a document from the BH army,

18 the 3rd Corps, the 3rd Military Police Battalion, and that it bears the

19 date of the 29th of August, 1995? Do you agree with all that?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Do you agree that the subject of this document is the taking over

22 of members of the so-called Army of Republika Srpska from the LP El

23 Mujahedin Detachment? Is this what it says?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Please read the text that follows.

Page 3216

1 Could we scroll down the English version for the benefit of the

2 Bench.

3 Do you agree that this document serves to inform the Department of

4 Military -- of Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps of the fact that

5 11 members of the so-called VRS were taken over who had been captured in

6 the previous military activities within the area of Ozren-Vozuca theatre

7 of war? Does it say that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Very well. Can we look at the end of the document now, which is

10 page 3 in the English version. Can the document be shown -- the Bosnian

11 version is fine. We want page 3 in the English version. Right.

12 Witness, please read the last portion of the document. Do you

13 agree that the military police of the 3rd Corps wrote that in the course

14 of the handover and escorting of the above-mentioned soldiers of the

15 aggressor, there had been no problems or hindrances and that all the

16 persons were safely escorted and put up -- accommodated at the centre for

17 the intake of prisoners of war? Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This is my question with regard to the document: Do you agree

20 that not a single word in this document mentions something that could be

21 interpreted as mistreatment of these POWs?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I have the following question on the subject of POWs: You

24 personally had never heard that these 11 POWs had been mistreated,

25 tortured, or anything along -- along those lines. Did you ever at any

Page 3217

1 point in time have that information at your disposal?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. Did Mr. Hajdar Hodzic, your associate for intelligence affairs,

4 ever report to you personally on any mistreatment or any unlawful

5 treatment of these 11 POWs?

6 A. As far as I remember, we did not discuss that.

7 Q. Was Mr. Imamovic an associate of yours during this period?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did he inform you personally at any time on any inhumane treatment

10 towards these prisoners?

11 A. I did not receive such information from him. I don't remember.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, may this

13 document be tendered into evidence, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 499, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, did you ever forward to anybody any information about the

20 mistreatment of prisoners of war ensuing from the July action in 1995?

21 A. I don't believe so. I can't remember. But there was no such

22 brief.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to discuss the following with you:

24 Witness, in your division out in the field before the Vozuca operations

25 and actions, you had discussed the matter of prisoners of war with your

Page 3218

1 men. You had instructed them about how to treat prisoners of war. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes, this is correct. I certainly did so.

4 Q. Moreover, when it comes to the treatment of the opponent, the

5 enemy - in this case, the Serbian side - you stimulated capturing of live

6 people and not the killing of them.

7 A. This was the rules. We received it at the division from the 3rd

8 Corps command and we applied it. The 3rd Corps command had prepared such

9 rules and we received them and abided by them.

10 Q. So the 3rd Corps command forwarded to you rules and you applied

11 those rules whereby you were prompted to capture live enemies and not to

12 kill them. Am I correct in saying so?

13 A. Yes, you are correct.

14 Q. Moreover, you gave monetary awards to your troops when they caught

15 live enemies and to prevent them killing them.

16 A. This instruction from the corps command and this was the order for

17 the September operation.

18 Q. So for the September operation. In other words, you were trying

19 to protect to the greatest extent possible the enemy soldiers so that they

20 surrender instead of being killed. Am I correct in saying so?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have D426 shown

23 to the witness.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we go on to this document, Ms. Vidovic, I'd

25 like you to ask your witness to clarify a bit what he means when he said

Page 3219

1 that he instructed his men. And the obvious question to be put, of

2 course, is that: Would that include officers or representatives from the

3 El Mujahedin Detachment?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, I believe you understood this question. You indeed said

6 that you instructed "my men," "I trained my men." Do you imply members of

7 the El Mujahedin Detachment under this term "my men"? First explain that.

8 A. They were not part of my composition. I cannot call them "my

9 men." They were attached to the composition of the division from the 3rd

10 Corps. But I'm sure I said those things, things to that effect in their

11 presence.

12 We had a code of conduct even.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do not understand when you say "they were

14 attached to the composition of the division from the 3rd Corps." Which

15 division?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the El Mujahedin Detachment,

17 that they were re-subordinated to the 35th Division.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Re-subordinated to the 35th Division, then they are

19 your men, are they not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, for the carrying out of that

21 specific mission.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: So -- and for the carrying out of that specific

23 mission you gave instructions to your men to handle prisoners of war with

24 care. Isn't that your testimony?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe "my men" is not the proper

Page 3220

1 term. I turned the attention of my units who were part of that mission to

2 that matter.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The El Mujahedin Detachment was one of your units.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, for that mission.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Let me complete the second part of His Honour Harhoff's question.

7 Did you issue orders to them as well on how they should treat prisoners of

8 war? In other words, did you issue a general order on the treatment of

9 prisoners of war?

10 A. Yes, this was part of an order that they received.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Your Honours, let us

12 maybe take another look at this document. If we can show D426 to the

13 witness, please.

14 Q. Is this the rule book that you mention on incentives to reward

15 units of RBiH army for captured war booty?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This is a document produced by the 35th Division; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, this is so.

19 Q. Now I would like to focus on Article 3. If we can scroll the

20 Bosnian version and the English version down.

21 Item 3, it is stated here that: "The capture of soldiers and

22 officers is being rewarded." Is that so?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In connection with this document, I would like to ask you the

25 following: It is true, is it not, that in this way you tried to

Page 3221

1 incentivise your men not to kill enemy soldiers.

2 A. Yes, this is so.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we see the next

4 page so that we can see the signature on this document.

5 Q. Can you see your -- the signature? Is it yours?

6 A. Yes, it's mine.

7 Q. Very well.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document be

9 assigned an exhibit name, please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

11 please be given an exhibit number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 500, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, I would

15 conclude this portion of my cross-examination, because I am about to

16 broach a subject substantiated by a voluminous document that could not be

17 explored during the four remaining minutes at our disposal, so it's best

18 that I broach this subject tomorrow.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very well, then. The matter will then stand

20 adjourned to tomorrow at 9.00 in the same courtroom, sir. You must be

21 here at 9.00. Do you understand that?

22 Court adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of

25 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.