Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5192

1 Thursday, 8 November 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours. This

9 is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Good afternoon, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

14 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis for the Prosecution, assisted by our case

15 manager, Alma Imamovic.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

17 And for Defence.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

19 afternoon to the learned colleagues from the OTP, to everyone in and

20 around the courtroom. Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for the Defence

21 of General Delic, with Lejla Gluhic, legal assistant.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

23 Good afternoon, sir.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 5193

1 Let me just remind you, sir, that you are still bound by the

2 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony, to tell the

3 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

4 WITNESS: DZEMAL VUCKOVIC [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

8 Madam Vidovic.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

11 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. I hope you are rested and we can

12 continue today.

13 A. Thank you. Good afternoon to you, too.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to be

15 shown PT1673.

16 Q. Witness, this is bulletin number 5, dated the 6th of January,

17 1994, which you commented upon in paragraph 65 of your statement. You

18 said that since the document does not bear a stamp, most probably it was a

19 draft version of the document. Nevertheless, I should like you to look at

20 the contents of it, since it was admitted into evidence.

21 Can you turn to page 4 of the document, please, or, rather, page 3

22 of the Bosnian version and page 4 of the English. Page 3 of the Bosnian.

23 Witness, please -- or, rather, let us look at the next page of the

24 Bosnian version. The English version is fine. Thank you. Can we see the

25 entire paragraph? Yes, thank you.

Page 5194

1 Witness, please take a look at the paragraph, and you will see

2 that this is a report where a man called "Abu Muhamed El Kasim," a fighter

3 of the El Mujahedin unit, had sent two letters to Saudi Arabia. In one of

4 the letters, he informs them that he had become -- that he is on very good

5 terms with the Supreme Command, who blindly trust him?

6 A. Yes, I see that.

7 Q. I would like to ask you the following: The Supreme Command is not

8 the General Staff, is it; "the Supreme Command" is a broader term, is it

9 not?

10 A. Yes, of course.

11 Q. The Supreme Command is the Presidency, is it not?

12 A. Precisely so.

13 Q. I would like to ask you the following in relation to this

14 document: You worked as the head of the Analysis Department of the

15 Military Security Administration, and you handled hundreds of such reports

16 which concerned Arabs, the El Mujahedin Detachment, and their

17 connections. Please, sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber and can you

18 recall whether you had ever seen a single report pointing to a link

19 between General Delic -- a direct link between him and members of the El

20 Mujahedin Detachment?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. This is characteristic, since he was the commander of the Staff of

23 the Supreme Command, and as such you would probably have recalled or

24 remembered that?

25 A. Well, probably I would, yes.

Page 5195

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted into

2 evidence, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 762.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown document or

8 Exhibit 742, and can we put this document away.

9 Q. Witness, please look at the document.

10 For the transcript, this is Special Information Report number 87,

11 dated the 16th of August, 1995.

12 Apparently, Witness -- or, rather, please look at the signature at

13 the top. Do you recognise it?

14 A. Yes, I do. These are my initials, and I wrote the date, the "16th

15 of August."

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can the witness be shown

17 page 2, please. Let's turn to page 2 of the document, and I believe it's

18 page 2 in the English version as well.

19 Q. You're the author of this document, I presume, depending on the

20 basis of the initials, or at least you saw it, and the document speaks of

21 the disrupted, troubled relations between the Command of the 35th Division

22 and the civilian authorities of Zavidovici Municipality. Please go

23 through the document, and then I'll ask you a question about its contents.

24 It follows from the document that the political structures of

25 Zavidovici demanded that they be submitted reports on all the activities

Page 5196

1 and plans for combat activities within the municipality, and generally the

2 document speaks of the close relations that exist between the Zavidovici

3 Municipality and the El Mujahedin Detachment and the Company of Asim

4 Camdzic; is it right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Analysing the information you received, you would also receive

7 information such as this one about the interference of the municipality

8 authorities in Bosnian -- or, rather, of the interference of Bosnian

9 municipality -- municipal authorities into municipal matters?

10 A. Yes, there were several such cases.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Can Madam Vidovic please repeat her question?

12 The interpreter isn't sure that it was correct.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's asked that you repeat your question.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

15 apologise.

16 Q. I wanted to ask you the following.

17 I will repeat the question, Your Honours, because it doesn't

18 reflect what I said.

19 Witness, I said the following: In performing your work in the

20 Analysis Department, you received information about the interference on

21 the part of the civilian authorities into military matters within the

22 municipalities of Central Bosnia? This was my question. Do you recall?

23 Can you repeat your answer?

24 A. Yes. In addition to this particular case, there were several

25 others.

Page 5197

1 Q. Do you recall which were the municipalities in question?

2 A. At this time, I can definitely recall that there was one such case

3 in the territory of Konjic Municipality. I believe there was one such

4 case in the area of Zenica Municipality or that's to say in Zenica proper,

5 and of course in other municipalities, but I can't recall them at present,

6 but there were such cases, for sure. Sure.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

8 Your Honours, we can put this document away. It's already been

9 admitted into evidence.

10 I want the witness to be shown a different document. Can the

11 witness be shown P1937. This is bulletin number 9, dated the 13th of

12 January, 1995. This is one of the bulletins which you said in your

13 statement you recognised.

14 Can the witness be shown page 3 of the document, please. Until we

15 get the English version, please read paragraph 2 concerning the 3rd

16 Corps. I will ask you something about the principle of work in dealing

17 with documents such as this one. The first portion of the document will

18 suffice.

19 I would like the Trial Chamber to see the document. Can you

20 please scroll down, once we finish reading the paragraph, because we can

21 only see half of the paragraph in the English version, Your Honours. The

22 other half is on the following page.

23 Q. I believe you've read this, Witness. From this portion of the

24 bulletin, one could conclude, could we not --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Really. Thank

Page 5198

1 you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's okay. You may proceed.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. From this portion of the bulletin, one could conclude, could one

6 not, that Abu Maali had said that the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

7 could give its authorisation for the entry of 50 Afghans into

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the government can give that authorisation. This

9 is something that the reader of this passage would conclude?

10 A. Yes, I agree.

11 Q. Please keep this piece of information in mind.

12 Can this document be admitted into evidence, Your Honours, please,

13 and can it be put away, because I wish to show the witness another

14 document which is connected to this one.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 763.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

20 680. 680. Page 3 of the Bosnian version and 5 of the English version.

21 Q. Witness, you can see that this is an official note of the Ministry

22 of the Interior concerning the reproductions of wire-tapped conversations.

23 Can we look at reproduction number 42. It is in the middle of the

24 page. Can we zoom in on paragraph 42, please.

25 These are the contents of the wire-tapped conversations,

Page 5199

1 intercepted conversations of the 6th of January, 1995. It is stated:

2 "Abdurahman informs Meali that through the Turkish organisation,

3 IMH, 50 Afghans have arrived in Turkey, and asks Meali whether he can get

4 permission from the BH Government for them coming to Bosnia, to which

5 Meali replies that they should not go through official channels because

6 they are able to transfer them."

7 You will agree, Witness, will you not, that this is the original

8 information on the basis of which that other report was made, the one --

9 or that other information was written that we saw in Exhibit 763, where it

10 was roughly said that the government can make this possible. Do you

11 agree, Witness, that the content of the information we have here is, in

12 fact, quite different. Maali suggested here that they should not go

13 through the official channels of the government because they were able to

14 take care of the transfer of the Afghans themselves.

15 Let me ask you this in connection with that: Would you agree with

16 me that the person writing the bulletin must have interpreted the same

17 piece of information differently, in a different way than it was, in fact,

18 written here?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Errors in the process of conveying information in the form of

21 bulletins were quite possible, they could happen quite possibly, could

22 they not?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we put this document away,

25 please.

Page 5200

1 On the topic of including information into bulletins --

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, before we put this document back

3 into the computer, I'd like to ask you what it really is that you are

4 seeking to show here. Is it that the same piece of information was

5 interpreted differently by two members of the witness's team or is it to

6 show that, in fact, in the end those extra Arabs who were to come did not

7 arrive into the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina through the official

8 channels, but came in an informal way and were introduced by

9 already-existing members of the El Mujahid in Bosnia-Herzegovina? I'm

10 unsure of what it is you want to elicit from this witness in relation to

11 these two documents.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I want to elicit from

13 the witness the former, what you said before. The information -- the

14 report we have before us is the information from the Military Security

15 Service which intercepted the information, which was subsequently

16 misinterpreted in the bulletin. What I want to say is that the

17 information contained in the bulletins may be inaccurate because they were

18 misinterpreted in the process of being made, the information was

19 misinterpreted in the process of making the bulletins, and I want to show

20 the degree to which these bulletins are, in fact, accurate and reliable.

21 I hope I was clear enough.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: You were indeed. So just to confirm that, your

23 point is to confirm the information that we see in the bulletins may not

24 always be reliable; is that correct?

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 5201

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to show the witness

3 Exhibit 736. And can we put this document away, please.

4 This is bulletin number 125 from the 10th of July, 1995.

5 Q. You referred to this bulletin in paragraph 47 of your statement.

6 May we show the last paragraph of page 5 of the document, please.

7 Before the English version appears on the screen, please take a

8 look at the text starting with: "The Military Security Service of the 3rd

9 Corps." That's the following page on the English.

10 This is okay now.

11 I draw your attention to the section which mentions the 3rd

12 Corps. Let me quote a fraction of that. It reads:

13 "The Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps reports that

14 members of the El Mujahedin Detachment, while on the Ozren-Vozuca front,

15 frequently visited soldiers of the adjacent unit, the 328th Brigade, and

16 threatened them, especially the Croatian and Serbian soldiers."

17 And then further on it says that they asked for one of its

18 soldiers, who is a Croat, saying that they would slaughter all Croats and

19 Chetniks.

20 Do you agree that the gist of this part of the bulletin is that

21 the El Mujahedin threatened all Croats and Chetniks with slaughter, those

22 members of the 328th Brigade, so this is the gist of this information; is

23 that so?

24 A. This is so.

25 Q. Before I go to another document which is connected with this,

Page 5202

1 please tell me whether you agree that at the end it is stated, just as in

2 other bulletins, that the Military Security Service, in coordination with

3 the organs of command and control, is taking steps to resolve this

4 problem?

5 A. Yes, this is perfectly clear.

6 Q. Fine. Do you agree that you -- not you, personally, but your

7 department prepared such information on the basis of raw information that

8 you received from your subordinate units?

9 A. Yes, this can be clearly seen in the text.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

11 Can we put this document away, please. And may we show the

12 witness D586, please.

13 Q. Here you can see the pseudonym "White Chicken" or "Bijela Koka."

14 Please look at the seal or stamp on this page. Can you confirm this is

15 the document by the 3rd Corps Command, the Department of Military

16 Security, dated the 7th [Realtime transcript read in error "17"] of July,

17 1995?

18 A. Yes, I can confirm that.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now could we scroll up to the text,

20 please.

21 Q. Do you agree that the Military Security Service kept their --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is the 7th of July the date of this document or --

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that this is

24 the 7th of July, as I said, the 7th of July. It was entered in the

25 transcript wrongly.

Page 5203

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, okay. Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 So can we go back to the text of the document.

4 Q. And, Witness, I'm going to ask you again: Do you agree that

5 members of the Military Security Service maintained their sources and

6 their associates covered under pseudonym or code names?

7 A. Yes, I do agree this was their duty to do so.

8 Q. Fine. Now please read -- I see that you were looking at the

9 text. Could you read it? And there is a sentence which begins with the

10 course of -- "This is what happened ..." This would be towards the

11 middle, Your Honours, starting with: "This is what happened ..."

12 Witness, please take a look at this. It reads:

13 "This is what happened:"

14 They are referring to Miro Huncek. This is the person referred to

15 in the bulletin that we just saw. It reads:

16 "As soon as they arrived, they asked for a member of a unit of the

17 1st Battalion with these words: 'Where is Mira Huncek?' The platoon

18 commander answered there was no Miro, only Mihro. And this is what he

19 said, that: 'We had no Mihro, but Miro, the Croat. I want to slit his

20 throat.' Throughout this time, Mira Huncek was nearby, observing what was

21 happening. The platoon commander managed to wink at Huncek, indicating

22 that he wanted him to leave the grounds of the company command, which

23 Huncek did."

24 And the next sentence is:

25 "The news spread along the line of defence that members of the El

Page 5204

1 Mujahedin unit were coming, wanted to slaughter all non-Muslim members."

2 After that:

3 "After these events, rumours started to spread through the town

4 that there was no point in the Croats and the remaining Serbs going to the

5 line of defence because members of the El Mujahedin would apparently

6 slaughter them, be they on the line or at home."

7 Witness, in connection with this, I would like to ask you this:

8 You just saw that the gist of this information that was introduced into

9 the bulletin -- into the bulletin which was Exhibit 736, so the gist of

10 that information was the El Mujahedin Detachment members are visiting the

11 line of defence, threatening to slaughter all Croats and Serbs. You would

12 agree that this document is the raw or original document used for the

13 preparation of the bulletin?

14 A. Yes, this is the primary or raw document which is being

15 exaggerated maybe by somebody at the 3rd Corps Security Service Department

16 or at the -- our administration.

17 Q. So this rumour which is mentioned in the raw document entered into

18 the bulletin; is that so?

19 A. Yes, apparently it entered the bulletin as correct, accurate

20 information.

21 Q. So it's clearly shown in this document that rumours concerning the

22 El Mujahedin can be overblown and they can reach such a high level as your

23 bulletin?

24 A. This was a frequent occurrence.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5205

1 Your Honours, may this document be given an exhibit number.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before, what is actually the rumour here that

3 is spreading? I'm asking the witness.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness?

6 A. Your Honours, this can be seen from the text of this information

7 that rumours were relayed from the line of defence into town centre that

8 the El Mujahedin were about to slaughter all Serbs and Croats, be they on

9 the line of defence or be they at home.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But is it a rumour or was it something that was

11 quoted -- that is put into quotes in the previous document, where it

12 says: "I want to slit the throats of all Chetniks and Serbs," or whatever

13 it said? I can't remember. That was a quotation.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, this was a quote,

15 but I cannot be precise about it, whether it was a misinterpretation on

16 the part of the 3rd Corps analyst or an analyst in the Military Security

17 Administration.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's for you to determine. How would you know?

19 You're receiving a quote. A quote is a quote is a quote. It cannot be a

20 rumour. You can't expect that which is in quotation marks to be

21 misinterpreted, because the person who's writing that is saying, "Lest I

22 misinterpret, I'll tell you exactly what was said, so it's for you, the

23 reader, to interpret what that means." So you can't then say the 3rd

24 Corps misinterpreted it if they quoted it.

25 So I want to know what the rumour is here you're talking about,

Page 5206

1 that you're agreeing to that was spread, because this document says the

2 news spread along the company command, along the line of defence. That is

3 the news, not the rumour. The news, that is in quotes.

4 Okay, you're not able to tell us what the rumour is?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I clarify one

6 thing?

7 In this case, it goes for a raw document prepared by an operative

8 out in the field. This document was processed in the Military Security

9 Department of the 3rd Corps, and most probably the analysts of the 3rd

10 Corps in question wrote the section as presented in the "Biltin" -- or

11 rather as written in his daily report as sent to the Military Security

12 Administration of the Supreme Command Staff. Therefore, a mistake

13 occurred in the Military Security Department of the 3rd Corps.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I believe

15 that the interpretation is wrong again.

16 The person that is interpreting is interpreting construing what

17 the witness is saying and not translating what he is saying. I don't know

18 why this is happening, Your Honours. I would like this to enter into the

19 transcript.

20 The witness specifically says --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just stop testifying. Let's ask the interpreters

22 to interpret. Say what you wanted to say and let the interpreters

23 interpret again. And then if they still misinterpret, Madam Vidovic, tell

24 us where you say they misinterpret and let's go back to them.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm exactly referring to what the

Page 5207

1 witness already said. The witness says this is a primary document, and

2 this is not reflected in the transcript.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is not reflected in the transcript?

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It did not enter into the transcript

5 in the first sentence of his reply in line 14 on page 15, that the witness

6 referred to a primary document, and this is why you cannot understand what

7 is being discussed here.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you and the witness have been using

9 the word "raw" and "primary" interchangeably, and at line 14, yes, the

10 word "primary" is not there, but the word "raw" is there. It doesn't

11 help, Madam Vidovic, to be -- to look exasperated. All I want to

12 understand is what is the rumour. You're taking me all over this

13 document, and you're not -- I'm not getting an answer to my question.

14 What was the rumour that was being propagated? I don't care whether it's

15 a primary document or not a primary document. That's all I want to know.

16 And it doesn't help to say, "Aah."

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, not for a single

18 moment did I use the word, in Bosnian, "raw." Neither did the witness.

19 What is entered into the transcript are replies and -- permit me to

20 finish, Your Honours. We cannot understand one another, neither you, I or

21 the witness, if I say "primary" and the witness says "primary," it is

22 interpreted as "raw," then you cannot receive the witness's reply.

23 And allow me, Your Honours, to say that this creates grave

24 problems in our work.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now understand one thing. I don't

Page 5208

1 understand a word of B/C/S, so when you speak and the interpreters

2 say "raw" at some stage and at some stage they say "primary," I say,

3 "Okay, that's how you interchange the words." And if nobody, when the

4 word is first misused, doesn't say, "Sorry, I didn't say 'raw', I

5 said 'primary'," then I accept that you're using the words

6 interchangeably. But again I go back to my point.

7 That's not the point I'm raising. I'm asking what is the rumour

8 that was being spread, irrespective of whether that rumour comes from a

9 raw or a primary statement? All I want to know is what is the rumour, and

10 let's concentrate on that and forget about "raw" and "primary."

11 Yeah. What is the rumour?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not being able to -- he agreed with you that a

14 rumour spread, and I stopped, I said, "Wait a minute, what is the

15 rumour?" And in all his answers, I have not been told what the rumour is.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like the witness to answer me at this

18 point.

19 I would like to know, sir, what is the rumour that was spreading?

20 And don't tell me about where things came from, just tell me, what is the

21 rumour?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it can be seen in the

23 text. The rumours referred to members of El Mujahedin Detachment

24 threatening to slit the throats of remaining Serbs and Croats, be they at

25 home or at the line of defence. These were the rumours. This was not

Page 5209

1 carried out.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You already showed me that text, but the rumour --

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me assist.

4 In the English text, it starts with the words: "After these

5 events ..." That's toward the end of this large paragraph.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Now, you --

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] One sentence.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The rumour there says that there was no point in

9 the Croats and the remaining Serbs going to the line of defence, not that

10 the El Mujahedin wants to slit -- kill everybody. That's not the rumour.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please read the sentence that

12 precedes this one, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: That precedes this one:

14 "The news spread along the line of defence that members of the El

15 Mujahid unit were coming, wanting to slaughter all non-Muslims."

16 But that's what they said in the quote that I referred to. That's

17 what they said, they wanted to kill them. So this is not an incorrect

18 report.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may put a question to the

20 witness, Your Honour, by your leave.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness, please, this primary document you have before you speaks,

24 in fact, about a Mujahedin threatening a man by the name of Mira Huncek,

25 so this was one member of that unit threatening one person, Mira Huncek;

Page 5210

1 is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And right after that, the document states that the news spread

4 along the line of defence that members of the El Mujahedin unit were

5 touring the area with the intention of slaughtering them, so it was on the

6 basis of this one incident, involving one individual, that the rumours

7 spread? Am I interpreting this document correctly?

8 A. Yes, this is what the document says.

9 Q. Now let me go back to that bulletin. This expanded form of this

10 piece of information was, in fact, entered into the bulletin that we saw.

11 Can you clarify this?

12 A. Yes, of course. The bulletin does not state that this was a

13 rumour.

14 Q. And one can see from this document that it was indeed a rumour,

15 was it not?

16 A. Yes, of course.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Can we put this document away -- or, rather, can we have it

19 admitted into evidence, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 764.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness look at Exhibit 711

25 now.

Page 5211

1 As you can see, this is Special Information Report number 12,

2 dated the 2nd of April, 1993. This was among the documents the

3 authenticity of which you confirmed yesterday.

4 Can we turn to page 2 of the document now.

5 Q. The document is entitled "Information on the Inappropriate

6 Behaviour of Rasim Delic." Witness, please look at the second paragraph

7 of the document.

8 Before that, can the witness be shown the signature, the name and

9 surname of the author of the document.

10 Do you agree with me that it says "Chief Fikret Muslimovic"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Very well. Do you recognise his signature? Is this his

13 signature?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Please look at the paragraph starting with: "According to ..."

16 Do you agree that the Chief Fikret Muslimovic speaks of the information he

17 received about the fact that Rasim Delic was assigned a flat, his

18 disinterestedness about what was going on in combat activities, his

19 presence in cafes and hotels? Please keep this information in mind,

20 because I will be showing you other documents on this issue.

21 You had worked with General Delic and you knew him personally, and

22 you knew a great deal about him, did you not?

23 A. Yes, of course.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Can we put this document away now.

Page 5212

1 Can the witness be shown Exhibit 210 now. Since this is a

2 document under seal, can we move into private session, please?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5213

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D642.

6 This is page 1 -- or, rather, the cover page of Fikret

7 Muslimovic's book called "Arguments and Memories of War (1990-1993)."

8 Q. This is the one-and-only Fikret Muslimovic who was in the General

9 Staff, was he not, and who worked in the Security Administration and later

10 on as the Chief of the Administration for Moral Guidance; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let's turn to page 2 of the document. Please look at the passage

13 entitled "About BH Army Personnel." I will quote fractions of this

14 passage:

15 "President Izetbegovic then inquired about personnel within the

16 RBiH Army. He asked who former JNA officers were who could be counted on

17 to perform highest functions in RBiH Army. I said that there were few

18 Bosniak officers in the JNA who held high ranks and who had experience in

19 performing of high military functions."

20 I will be skipping about now, Witness, to save time.

21 Further down, the text reads:

22 "I said that Delic was in Visoko ..."

23 This is somewhere in the middle of the document:

24 "I said that Rasim Delic, who had left the JNA with the rank of

25 lieutenant colonel, at the start of the aggression. Since I know him

Page 5214

1 well, since we graduated from the Military Academy together, the Land

2 Artillery Department, I gave very positive evaluations of him. I pointed

3 out that Delic was extremely -- a person of moral integrity and great

4 discipline and that he was committed to his family and official

5 obligations. I assessed that he was adequate for the most significant

6 duties in the RBiH Army, that's to say that he belonged in the Supreme

7 Command Staff on one of the highest-level positions."

8 Do you agree with me, Witness, that in this book which General

9 Muslimovic obviously wrote after the war, he gave a completely different

10 piece of information about General Delic, compared to the one that he had

11 written in that special information report; do you agree with me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Back there, he described him as an immoral person and here as a

14 moral -- as a highly moral person?

15 A. Can I provide an explanation?

16 Q. Please.

17 A. Fikret Muslimovic was the Chief of the Counter-Intelligence

18 Department of the 7th Army District before the war, and therefore I'm

19 referring to the JNA. As a JNA officer, he had different criteria from

20 mine. I often opposed his method of reporting because he did not -- was

21 non-critical. What I want to say is that he should not have, because it

22 was not the practice of the Security Administrations to inform the top

23 military and state leadership on the basis of a single piece of

24 information. The information had to be double-checked and verified, and

25 if it came from only one source, then it -- one had to indicate that it

Page 5215

1 came from only one source.

2 I have just recalled one such case. At the start of the war, I

3 was writing a report for the President of the War Presidency of Gorazde

4 which was highly negative. It involved one source, and I contradicted

5 him, and I told him that something like that should not be written about

6 the President Izetbegovic, since the information only came from one

7 source. I told him that of course should we receive further information

8 to that effect about the President of the Presidency, then we could

9 compare it with other sources and see how accurate the information was.

10 However, he insisted that I write that down, to write down the

11 gist of the information. Since it was late at night, I didn't get any

12 sleep that night. I was going through this internal struggle, asking

13 myself whether I should write such information about a person, information

14 which I wasn't sure was true, but I did it ultimately because I was

15 ordered by him to do this.

16 He had these very rigid positions which were quite -- which lacked

17 critical perspective.

18 Now that I see who the author of this report on General Delic is,

19 it's Rusim Sejdinovic -- Husnija Sejdinovic, and since he was an

20 experienced analyst, I'm really wondering at him writing this.

21 Q. You personally knew General Delic. Would you accept as accurate

22 in any way that piece of information which Fikret Muslimovic wrote

23 originally, the author of which is Mr. Sejdinovic?

24 A. No, I wouldn't in any way.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5216

1 Your Honours, can this excerpt from General Muslimovic's book be

2 assigned a number?

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: D642 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

4 given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 765.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness look at document 643

7 briefly. D643.

8 Witness, you can see that this is the Special Information Report

9 number 243.

10 I would like the witness to look at the last page of the document

11 to see his initials and confirm that these are his initials on the

12 document.

13 Q. Do you agree with me that these are your initials?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1 of the

16 document, please, or, rather, page 2. Page 2.

17 Please read the first part of the document.

18 Q. Do you agree that the document is entitled: "Obstruction of work

19 by certain members of the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps"?

20 A. Yes, that's quite clear.

21 Q. The document says that the Military Security Department of the 3rd

22 Corps had problems and disputes arising between Mr. Dugalic and certain

23 members of the Military Security Sector of the 3rd Corps.

24 A. Yes, I can see that this is what it says.

25 Q. You had information and knowledge about these problems, did you

Page 5217

1 not?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. It seemed that Commander Dugalic wanted discipline to reign, and

4 that in connection with this there was some obstructions and some problems

5 arising; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this document into

8 evidence, Your Honours, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 766.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, put this document away, and

14 please show the witness document P1556.

15 This is yet another Special Information Report number 189, dated

16 24th of September, 1993.

17 Q. At that time, you were still an analyst in this department, in

18 this part of the administration which produced such special information

19 reports?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we first turn to the last page

22 of the document, please.

23 Q. I believe that you recognise this signature.

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Chief Jusuf Jasarevic, and the initials of Husnija Sejdinovic that

Page 5218

1 you mentioned a couple of times?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now let's go to page 2 of the

4 document, please.

5 Q. Do you agree, Witness, that this document discusses some

6 security-related actions of the deputy commander of the General Staff

7 during the execution of his duty at the IKM Zenica?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Do you agree, then, that the Military Security Service was engaged

10 in counter-intelligence protection and subjected and targeted the

11 commander -- personnel of the Army of BiH to questioning?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Their conduct was being monitored?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Therefore, we just saw that Military Security Service monitored

16 the conduct of their own leaders?

17 A. That's correct.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document into

19 evidence, Your Honours, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 767.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, can we show D640 to the

25 witness, please.

Page 5219

1 This is an information concerning negative reporting in some

2 media, dated 24th of September, 1996, addressed to the President of the

3 Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just interrupt you, Madam Vidovic. I note

5 that the English version says "1995" instead of "1996", on the date.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1995. I erred. The original refers

7 to 1995. This is -- the last digit is "5", and it would be evident from

8 the contents.

9 Now can we turn to page 2 -- or, rather, page 3 of the document.

10 That would be page 2 in English.

11 Q. Witness, at the time, mid-September 1995, you worked at the

12 Supreme Command Staff, did you not? Now I would like you to read this

13 paragraph which discusses -- and I can quote it, and that would be the

14 last paragraph in the English version.

15 Could this be zoomed in on or can the English version be scrolled

16 down, please, so that the last paragraph is visible.

17 Witness, please, this document discusses that the authority of the

18 commander of the General Staff, Army General Rasim Delic, is being exposed

19 to open irony in the "Masala Dzoka" [phoen] article authored by Sead

20 Fetahagic published in the "Oslobodjenje" on the 18th September 1995, and

21 similarly in an article entitled "51 per cent of Bosnia and Herzegovina

22 liberated," by Senad Avdic, in "Slobodna Bosna", Issue 2 of the 21st of

23 September 1995, and through inappropriate comparison quotes: "Dudakovic

24 almost in Banja Luka, Delic almost in Kuala Lumpur," and that by doing so,

25 they erroneously represented the activities of the purposes concerned:

Page 5220

1 Witness, you worked in September 1995 in General Supreme Staff --

2 in the General Staff, your administration and the Moral Guidance

3 Administration were involved in media and publicity. It is true, is it

4 not, that in September 1995 there were a slough of attacks against General

5 Delic for his -- at the time when the fighting going on, for his being at

6 Malaysia. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes, I do remember these -- this coverage of these articles.

8 Q. And this is why we have this ironic title, "Dudakovic almost in

9 Banja Luka," who is the Chief of the 5th Corps: "Dukekovic almost in

10 Banja Luka, Delic almost in Kula Lumpur"; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 May this document be admitted into evidence, Your Honours, and

14 maybe I have a couple of minutes more to finish after the break, after the

15 break, Your Honours. I believe that this is the right time to take the

16 break.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is, but you realise, Madam Vidovic, that from

18 yesterday when you said you would be an hour, you've already taken more

19 than one and a half hours, taken -- and --

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've taken three hours and 15 minutes to date.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe so, Your Honours. But

23 believe me that I did my best to go through the huge number of documents

24 admitted by the Prosecutor in the simplest of ways, without neglecting my

25 duty towards my clients in this case and in another case. I will be in a

Page 5221

1 position, by leave, to use quite a lot of time in my cross when it comes

2 to the witness pursuant to Rule 92 ter, because there is no other way --

3 if there are hundreds of documents being admitted, I would be failing in

4 my duty if I were not to confront the witness with what I have to confront

5 him or her with. And I truly believe it will take me no more than five or

6 six minutes after the break, and this is what I'm duty-bound to do.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I will repeat what I told you when

8 those documents were admitted, that they were not admitted for the

9 truthfulness of their contents, so that in fact whether or not their

10 contents is truthful is not going to be material in this case. So I'm not

11 quite sure what is the purpose of this cross-examination.

12 We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

13 Court adjourned.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Am I right to say that document 640 has not been

17 tendered yet -- has been tendered but has not been given an exhibit

18 number? Okay. It is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

19 exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit 768.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

22 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, I'd like to ask you briefly about a portion of your

25 statement which concerns the morning briefings of the Military Security

Page 5222

1 Administration that you described in paragraph 21 of your statement. You

2 remember discussing that?

3 A. I do remember.

4 Q. You said that special attention was paid by the administration to

5 training and that this was something very frequently discussed at

6 briefings, but all other issues, important issues, were discussed as well;

7 is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May D641 be shown to the witness,

10 please.

11 Q. Do you recognise this document, Witness, Mr. Vuckovic, do you

12 recognise it?

13 A. Yes, I recognise it. This is my -- this is my handwriting.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May we show the next page of this

15 document to the witness, please.

16 Q. Witness, here I would like to show you some portions of this

17 document. Please pay attention to the day the 8th of August, 1994.

18 Please take a look at paragraphs 1 and 6 of this document. Paragraphs 1

19 and 6. Please read them to yourself. This is your handwriting. And

20 after that I'm going to ask you some questions.

21 A. I recognise the handwriting. This is Husnija Sejdinovic's

22 handwriting.

23 Q. I thought it was yours. I apologise. You will agree with me that

24 in these paragraphs, it is stated that the Military Security Service, in

25 conducting operative activities, encountered a number of objective

Page 5223

1 difficulties or obstructions in its work. Do you agree that, as an

2 example, that the Trebevic-4 operation was cited?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, "4" or "2"? The interpreter says "4", the

5 document says "2", at least the English version.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please take a look at

7 paragraph 1 on this page.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to this. So at this

10 point, I was discussing this point, but in paragraph 6 it makes reference

11 to what His Honour Moloto said, that there are obstructions in the

12 criminal proceedings or trials with the framework of T-2 operation and

13 that organs -- [indiscernible] held a meeting there about that?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Let's take a look at page 3 of the document now. The problems

16 that we saw discussed there, Military Security Service encountered

17 obstruction within its own ranks and obstructions within the judicial

18 system; is that right?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Now please take a look, on page 3, minutes of meetings of the

21 briefing of the 6th of September, 1994.

22 A. Yes, this is my handwriting.

23 Q. Very well. Please read the first three sentences on this page.

24 Do you agree that at the Collegium of the Military Security

25 Service, what was highlighted was the need to use that service to collect

Page 5224

1 documents for war crimes?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. It was stated that the Prosecutor from the International Court in

4 The Hague came to Sarajevo. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And your service, in connection with this, adopts a conclusion

7 that war crime cases should be worked on. What I'd like to ask you about

8 this, the war crimes issues, is: Do you agree that the Army of BiH

9 General Staff immediately, on the 6th of September, immediately after the

10 Prosecutor came, accepted to work with the International Criminal

11 Tribunal's Prosecutors; do you know about that?

12 A. Yes, I clearly know that because I was the one to assess the

13 collected documentation.

14 Q. At that time, you were already working, following instructions of

15 the Prosecutor?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. That cooperation, Mr. Vuckovic, was accepted, among other things,

18 because that was the position of General Delic with regard to war crimes,

19 that cooperation must be started with the International Criminal

20 Tribunal's Prosecutor?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. The Army of BiH opened all its archives, including the General

23 Staff's president's archives and made them available to the Prosecutor; am

24 I right in saying so?

25 A. You are right in saying so.

Page 5225

1 Q. As early as 1995, at the request of the Prosecutor, the Government

2 of BiH extradited members of the Army of BiH, gentlemen Lanco [phoen] and

3 Delic to be tried here at the Hague; is that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Before, only one person had been indicted here before them; is

6 that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. So trials started here at the Tribunal, trying the Muslims or

9 Bosniaks, because it was the position of the Supreme Command Staff was

10 that they should be tried; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Your Honours, I have no further questions. But before, I would

14 like to tender this document into evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 769.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Mundis?

20 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions at this time, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

22 Judge?

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have just a single question, I think.

Page 5226

1 Your testimony here before us, sir, has been mainly to establish

2 that the information was passed on to the General Staff. Now, you may

3 have noticed that there has been some uncertainty as to the truthfulness

4 of the contents of the reports that were passed on to the General Staff.

5 But be that as it may, my question to you would be if you could provide us

6 with some information as to your knowledge of whether General Delic

7 actually received these reports and had a chance to familiarise himself

8 with the contents. In other words, was he put on notice about the

9 activities of the El Mujahid Detachment and the other Mujahedin groups

10 that were contained in your reports? That's the crucial issue in relation

11 to your testimony. Can you help us out?

12 A. Your Honour, my main task was to assess the information received

13 from the corps level and other sources of information, also the

14 information received on the basis of cooperation with other security

15 services such as the State Security Service, Military Intelligence

16 Service. On the basis of these, my assessments, and on the basis of the

17 assessments of General Jasarevic, the head of the Military Security

18 Administration, together with our team of analysts, we prepared these

19 reports for which we believed that -- which we believed that the army

20 general -- that the army commander, General Delic, and President of the

21 Presidency, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic as the Commander-in-Chief, the Prime

22 Minister, Ministry of Defence, sometimes the Minister of Foreign Affairs

23 if there were matters lying within his competence, would keep them

24 informed on various activities such as the counter-intelligence activities

25 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, for instance.

Page 5227

1 We did this job of ours conscientiously and responsibly, and the

2 reports drafted in my department would be ultimately verified by General

3 Jasarevic, as the head of the administration. And the reports would, of

4 course, be dispatched to the recipients. Therefore, my task was to make

5 sure that the reports were as concise and brief as possible, whilst

6 containing the gist of these matters.

7 The procedure that followed was not of any interest to me in those

8 times of war, and I'm referring to the ways in which the reports would be

9 sent from there and what would happen with them. That was the matter for

10 General Jasarevic. What I thought was important was to make sure that the

11 daily bulletin was finished and ready by 12.00 midday, and that's why I

12 controlled my analysts to see whether they were lagging behind in

13 preparing bulletins, special information reports, sometimes in making

14 assessments, overviews and so on and so forth. I was monitoring their

15 work in order to make sure that it was done in a timely fashion.

16 I did not have any further obligations.

17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sure you did a good job, and I am not putting

18 that into question.

19 Do you recall any times when, for instance, General Delic or

20 someone from the General Staff would come back to you and react upon your

21 bulletins and your reports? In other words, did you have any impression

22 or knowledge about whether they actually read those reports and took

23 actions, relevant actions?

24 A. Your Honour, I already mentioned this in my evidence, in my

25 statement. I do remember that on several occasions Mr. Delic made some

Page 5228

1 annotations to the effect that we should keep up the work that we were

2 doing, or when an operative task was completed, he would make a note

3 saying that the job was well done. These annotations of his, of course,

4 served as encouragement for me and my colleagues in our future work.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, in short, you were convinced that General

6 Delic and his immediate staff actually did read your reports and did take

7 whatever actions they thought was necessary?

8 A. Your Honour, I wrote the reports with the intention of them

9 reaching the readers and intending for them to be read by them. Whether

10 they indeed read the reports and when, I don't know.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, sir.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the Judge's questions,

13 starting with the Prosecution?

14 MR. MUNDIS: No questions from the Prosecution.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 Mr. Vuckovic, this brings us to the conclusion of your testimony.

19 Let's take this time to thank you very much for taking the time out of

20 your busy schedule to come and testify. You are now excused. You may

21 stand down, and please do travel well back home.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 5229

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11 Page 5229 redacted. Private session

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5230

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16 May the witness please make the declaration. May the witness

17 please make the declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 WITNESS: SALIH SPAHIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated, sir. And

23 good afternoon to you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

Page 5231

1 Mr. Menon.

2 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Examination by Mr. Menon:

4 Q. Mr. Spahic, could you please state your full name for the record?

5 A. My name is Salih Spahic.

6 Q. And could you please state your date of birth, sir?

7 A. I was born on the 20th of May, 1943.

8 Q. And your place of birth, sir?

9 A. I was born in Bosanska Dubica.

10 Q. And just for the record, in which country is Bosanska Dubica?

11 A. Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, did you provide a written statement to an

13 investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor in September of 2006, sir?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. And at the time that you provided that written statement, sir, did

16 you answer the questions of the investigator truthfully?

17 A. I answered the questions of that investigator truthfully.

18 Q. And did you answer the questions freely, sir, and that's without

19 any coercion?

20 A. I answered the questions freely, without any coercion.

21 Q. And at the conclusion of that interview, sir, was your statement

22 read back to you in the Bosnian language, sir?

23 A. Yes. At the conclusion of that interview, the translation was --

24 or rather it was read to me in the Serbian language, translated back to

25 me.

Page 5232

1 Q. Thank you, sir. And did you then sign that statement in the

2 English language, sir, the English language version of the statement?

3 A. Yes, I signed the English version.

4 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

5 P06198, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: While the exhibit is coming: Sir, you didn't sign

7 the B/C/S statement?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't sign the statement in the

9 Bosnian language.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

11 MR. MENON: And if we could scroll down on the English version of

12 the document.

13 Q. Sir, you have now before you both the Bosnian and the English

14 versions of your statement. Do you see your signature on the English

15 version of the statement?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Now, when you arrived here earlier this week, in preparation for

18 your testimony, were you given an opportunity to review the version of

19 this statement which is in your own language?

20 A. Yes. On my arrival in The Hague, I had the opportunity to see the

21 Bosnian version of my statement.

22 Q. And did you review that version of your statement, sir?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. And after you finished reviewing your statement, were you given an

25 opportunity to make any corrections that you desired to your statement,

Page 5233

1 sir?

2 A. Yes, I had occasion to do that.

3 MR. MENON: And I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

4 P06207.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, what will the Court do with

6 P06198?

7 MR. MENON: Well, Your Honour, the document that I'm going to be

8 showing the witness is actually the corrections that he made, so once he

9 adopts that, I would just ask that both the statement that's on the screen

10 now and his corrections be admitted as a single exhibit.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed.

12 MR. MENON: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: P06...

14 MR. MENON: [Realtime transcript read in error "MS. VIDOVIC"]

15 6207, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: 6207. Sorry, there's a lot of things. Madam

17 Vidovic's name is being mentioned here, and she's been quiet all this

18 afternoon. I don't know why she's being mentioned on the record, and

19 figures that have been not mentioned.

20 MR. MENON: I think they put Madam Vidovic's name where my name

21 should have appeared, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Do you want to swap places?

23 MR. MENON: I'm actually pretty comfortable here, Your Honour.

24 Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, does the document in front of you list the corrections that

Page 5234

1 you made to your statement? Sir? Let me repeat the question.

2 Does the document in front of you list the corrections that you

3 made to your statement?

4 I'm not sure if the translation is going through, but the witness

5 doesn't seem to be -- Mr. Spahic?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like he's still reading --

7 MR. MENON: Oh.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- to check whether --

9 MR. MENON: Okay.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my version.

11 MR. MENON: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Spahic.

12 Now, if we could go to page 8 of the Bosnian version and page 7 of

13 the English version of the document.

14 Q. And, sir, do you see -- do you see your signature on the Bosnian

15 version of this document?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Now, sir, if I were to ask you -- if questions were to be put to

18 you during the course of your testimony here, questions that concern the

19 subject matter -- subject matters that were covered in your written

20 statement, would your answers reflect what's in the written statement and

21 in the list of changes that are on the screen in front of you?

22 A. I hope they would.

23 MR. MENON: Thank you, sir.

24 Your Honour, I would now ask that documents P0618 [sic] and P06207

25 be admitted into evidence.

Page 5235

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Documents P06198 and P06207 are admitted into

2 evidence. May they please be given an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 770.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

5 Apparently there are associated exhibits to these documents.

6 MR. MENON: There are, actually, Your Honour, and I had noticed

7 the Trial Chamber about this through the Trial Chamber's Legal Officer.

8 There are six documents which the witness discussed in the -- in his

9 statement which I would move to have admitted into evidence at this point.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those associated documents will form part of

11 Exhibit 770.

12 MR. MENON: Should I -- do I need to refer to them now, because

13 I'm not tendering all of the exhibits that are referred to in the

14 statement, just six specific exhibits which we consider relevant.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Apparently then, you shouldn't refer to them now.

16 Tender them as and when you tender them. So at this stage we'll accepted

17 statements only, because we are not going to -- at this stage, if we

18 accept everything -- if we accept anything that is an annex, it will have

19 to be everything that is annexed, but if you are not going to tender

20 everything that is annexed --

21 MR. MENON: Yeah.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- then tender each one of them as and when it

23 becomes relevant to talk about.

24 MR. MENON: Okay. So then --

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: So for now we've admitted the statements and the

Page 5236

1 statements only.

2 MR. MENON: Okay. Your Honour, if I could have just one second.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You have two, and be quick.

4 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would now ask that the witness be shown

5 Exhibit P02345.

6 Q. And, sir, do you see a handwritten comment -- on the document in

7 front of you, sir, do you see a handwritten comment under the

8 letters "KOO"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you know who made that particular comment?

11 A. I know.

12 Q. And can you tell us who that would be?

13 A. Ekrem Alihodzic.

14 Q. And then there's a comment on the right -- upper right-hand side

15 of the document. Do you know who made that particular comment?

16 A. I know.

17 Q. And can you tell us who made that particular comment?

18 A. Osman Vlajcic.

19 Q. Now what did the -- I'm going to go back to the other comment.

20 What do the letters "KOO" stand for, sir?

21 A. "Counter-intelligence Department."

22 Q. Okay. And in that comment, there's a -- there's the

23 abbreviation "PI." Can you tell us what that stands for, sir?

24 A. The abbreviation "PI" stands for "travel document," "passport."

25 MR. MENON: Thank you.

Page 5237

1 I would ask now if the usher could help the witness. I just would

2 like him to circle the two comments in different colours so we know who

3 made these comments down the road.

4 Q. And I would just ask: First, Mr. Spahic, could you circle the

5 comment that you have identified was made by Mr. Alihodzic with a --

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. And if you could use a different-coloured pen to circle -- sir, if

8 you could now circle the -- and let the record show that the witness

9 circled the comment about Mr. Alihodzic with a red pen.

10 Sir, now if you could circle the comment made by Mr. Vlajcic?

11 A. [Marks].

12 MR. MENON: And let the record show that the witness circled the

13 comment of Mr. Vlajcic with a blue pen.

14 Q. Sir, I just refer you to the number on this document. And if we

15 could get the English version of the document up on the screen.

16 Oh, we have to save this. Okay.

17 Well, sir, if you could just remember the number "01/1-750", which

18 is the document number of this, and I would now ask that this particular

19 exhibit be captured as an exhibit and be admitted into evidence, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document P02345 is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 771.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

Page 5238

1 P02384.

2 Q. Sir, is there a relation between this document, sir, and the

3 document that we just looked at?

4 A. This document refers back to the previous document we looked at,

5 01/1-750.

6 MR. MENON: I would just note for the record that the English

7 translation appears to have the wrong date. It refers to "11/08/1994"

8 whereas the B/C/S version is "11/08/1995".

9 If we could get the whole document on the screen on the B/C/S.

10 Thank you.

11 Q. I see the initials "SS" under the textual portion of the

12 document. To whom do those initials belong, sir?

13 A. They are mine, the initials.

14 Q. And why do your initials appear on this document, sir?

15 A. Because I wrote this document.

16 Q. And why did you prepare this document, sir?

17 A. I wrote this document on the orders of my superior, specifically

18 Ekrem Alihodzic.

19 Q. And to whom was this -- or to which entity was this document sent,

20 sir?

21 A. It was sent to the Command of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

22 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.

23 Your Honour, I would ask that this document be admitted into

24 evidence now.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 5239

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 772.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

4 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

5 P02144.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we go to P02144, Mr. Menon --

7 MR. MENON: Yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- Exhibit 771.

9 MR. MENON: Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- at this stage what is admitted into evidence is

11 just that page that is annotated. I don't know whether you intended to

12 tender the entire document.

13 MR. MENON: Yes, I wasn't really sure of the technical aspects of

14 it, but my intention was to tender the annotated version with the

15 accompanying English translation, which obviously had not been annotated.

16 I was under the assumption that that would be technically possible, but

17 apparently it's not, so I would simply, then, ask that the exhibit be --

18 that the unannotated version also be admitted into evidence, with the

19 accompanying English translation, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The unannotated version, together with the

21 accompanying English version, are admitted into evidence, that is, of

22 document P02345. May they please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 773.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 And now Mr. Menon has asked for P02144 to come up.

Page 5240

1 MR. MENON: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 And I just note for the record that this document is dated the 1st

3 of July, 1995.

4 And if we could go to page 2 of the English version of this

5 document, and stay on page 1 of the Bosnian version, but just scroll down

6 on the Bosnian version of the document.

7 Q. Sir, do you see the initials "SS" at the bottom of this document?

8 A. I can see that.

9 Q. And to whom do those initials belong, sir?

10 A. These initials belong to me.

11 Q. And why do your initials appear on this document, sir?

12 A. They appear because I wrote this document.

13 Q. And whose signature appears on this document, sir?

14 A. This is my signature.

15 MR. MENON: And if we could get the whole English page on the

16 screen instead of just the excerpt of that.

17 Q. Sir, there's a -- there's a portion of the document that's

18 underlined, actually, and the sentence that follows the underlined part,

19 which reads:

20 "On this occasion, members of the El Mujahid were saying that the

21 basic objective of their struggle was to exterminate the Serbs and

22 Croats ..."

23 As the drafter of this document, sir, can you tell us how you

24 would have come into that -- how you would have come into possession of

25 that particular information?

Page 5241

1 A. I did not understand the question.

2 Q. Sir, you prepared this document; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. MENON: If we could get the English language back on the

5 screen.

6 Q. There's a -- do you see the portion of the text which is

7 underlined?

8 A. I can see that.

9 Q. Now, after that, the sentence which follows that reads:

10 "On this occasion members of the El Mujahid were saying that the

11 basic objective of their struggle was to exterminate the Serbs and

12 Croats ..."

13 And I just want to know, as the drafter of this document, how you

14 would have come into that -- how you would have come into possession of

15 that information.

16 A. The drafting of this information was a result of an information

17 that I received from the field, from a subordinate command.

18 Q. Thank you, sir. And to which entity was the document in front of

19 you sent, sir?

20 A. This information was sent to the General Staff, to the appropriate

21 department of the General Staff, to Kakanj, among other recipients.

22 Q. Which department of the General Staff, sir? Can you be a little

23 more specific?

24 A. Such information would be sent to the Security Administration of

25 the General Staff, to the security organ of that Staff.

Page 5242

1 Q. How do you know specifically that this particular document was

2 sent to the security organ of the General Staff?

3 And if we could scroll up a little bit on the B/C/S version of the

4 document.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we do the same in the English, please.

6 MR. MENON: We'd actually have to go to the first page of the

7 English, Your Honour. I apologise for that. I should have said.

8 Q. Sir, do you know -- can you tell us how you know that this

9 document in front of you was sent to the Security Administration of the

10 General Staff?

11 A. On the document itself, on the right-hand side of it, it

12 says: "Security Administration of the General Staff of the Army of BiH."

13 Q. And what about the stamp on the document, sir, what does that

14 indicate?

15 A. It indicates that this information was received in the General

16 Staff in the Security Administration, Military Security Administration.

17 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask that this document be

18 admitted into evidence.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

20 please be given an exhibit number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 774.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

23 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

24 P02206.

25 If we could scroll down on the B/C/S version of the document and

Page 5243

1 move to page 2 of the English language version of the document.

2 Q. Sir, do you see the initials "SS" at the bottom of this document?

3 A. I can see that.

4 Q. And are those your initials, sir?

5 A. They are.

6 Q. Why do your initials appear on this document, sir?

7 A. Because I wrote this document.

8 MR. MENON: Thank you very much, sir.

9 Your Honour, I would ask now that this particular document be

10 admitted into evidence.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we able to get an explanation of the

12 handwritten markings on the Bosnian document before we do that?

13 MR. MENON: Absolutely, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Spahic, there's a handwritten comment at the top of the

15 Bosnian version of the document, and if you could explain to us what that

16 says and, perhaps if you know, who wrote that.

17 A. It says:

18 "Izet, I draw your attention to the seriousness of this content."

19 In other words:

20 "Izet, I draw attention on the seriousness of this content.

21 Vehicles are late towards ZS-S."

22 Possibly -- I can't read, it's illegible, the next two words.

23 Something "blamed, because had we requested from the Ustashas on time that

24 they return the Arabs to us, that then they wouldn't have given them to

25 the Chetniks."

Page 5244

1 And I can't recognise the signature. I can't see any signatures

2 here.

3 Q. Sir, do you know why this particular comment was made on this

4 document?

5 A. I wouldn't know.

6 MR. MENON: Okay, thank you very much.

7 Sir --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

9 please be given an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 775.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

13 P02204.

14 And I just note for the record that this document is dated the 3rd

15 of July, 1995, and that it's titled: "El Mujahedin activities on the

16 release of the Arabs imprisoned in Kiseljak."

17 Q. Sir, can you tell us how you would -- actually, let me -- if we

18 could go to page 2 of the Bosnian version, actually. Actually, sorry,

19 page 2 of the English version. Just scroll down on the Bosnian version.

20 Sir, the initials "SS" appear on this document as well. Can you

21 tell us whether or not you drafted this particular document?

22 A. I did, I drafted this document as well.

23 MR. MENON: And if we could scroll up a little bit on the English

24 version of the document.

25 Q. Sir, can you tell us how you would have compiled the information

Page 5245

1 that's in this particular document?

2 A. We would receive information on the basis of the use of technical

3 equipment.

4 Q. Can you expand on that answer? Can you tell us, when you say, "We

5 would receive this information on the basis of the use of technical

6 equipment," if you can expand on why you were using this technical

7 equipment and what information you were obtaining by the use of this

8 technical equipment?

9 A. This piece of information was drafted on the basis of intercepted

10 conversations, meaning wire-tapping of telephones.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, there's a -- there's a reference to a person

12 called "Hadzi Cengic", sir, in this document. If you could tell us, if

13 you know, who Hadzi Cengic is?

14 A. Hadzija Cengic, you mean?

15 Q. Yes, Hadzija Cengic.

16 A. He was a logistics operative at the General Staff, as far as I

17 know, I can tell you.

18 Q. Do you know what his specific position within the General Staff

19 was, sir?

20 A. He was from Logistics, and he was based in Visoko.

21 Q. And do you know what his full name was, sir?

22 A. I'm not sure. I can't tell you.

23 MR. MENON: Thank you very much. I would ask now that this

24 particular document be admitted into evidence, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

Page 5246

1 please be given an exhibit number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 776.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

4 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

5 P02217.

6 Q. And, sir, the initials "SS" appear on this document as well. Can

7 you confirm for us whether or not you drafted this particular document?

8 A. Yes, I also wrote this document.

9 Q. And if you could just briefly tell us what this document concerns.

10 A. It concerns a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment, Kasim

11 Celenka, who drowned in a river after being wounded.

12 MR. MENON: And if we could go to page 2 -- return to page 2 of

13 the English version of the document.

14 Q. Sir, I'm going to direct your attention to the last paragraph in

15 this particular document, and there's only one sentence in that paragraph

16 and it reads:

17 "We are going to request the security organ of the El Mujahedin

18 unit to submit a detailed report about the cause of the accident ..."

19 And I'm wondering, sir, as the drafter of this document, how did

20 you know that the El Mujahedin Detachment had a security organ?

21 A. I drafted this information on the basis of an information received

22 from a subordinate unit, from the security organs of a subordinate unit.

23 Therefore, that what was written in the security organ of a subordinate

24 unit, that I introduced into this information which was going to the

25 General Staff.

Page 5247

1 MR. MENON: Thank you, sir.

2 Your Honour, I would ask now that this document be admitted into

3 evidence.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

5 please be given an exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 777.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

8 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

9 P02341.

10 And if we could go to page -- actually, let me the English come

11 up. I just note, for the record, that this document is dated the 29th of

12 July, 1995.

13 If we could go to page 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S

14 version of the document. And if we could possibly -- I don't know if it's

15 possible to get the whole -- I mean, a part of the B/C/S version of the

16 document is cut off. If it's possible to get the whole thing.

17 It's fine like that, actually.

18 Q. Sir, do you see the initials "SS" on this document?

19 If we could scroll up a little bit on the English version of the

20 document. Thanks, that's fine.

21 A. Yes. I drafted this information as well.

22 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask now that this document be

23 admitted into evidence.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

25 please be given an exhibit number.

Page 5248

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 778.

2 MR. MENON: I would now ask that the witness be shown Exhibit

3 P02755.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course I have no

6 objection to this document being admitted, and for obvious reasons there

7 is a link with the witness, but I do believe that the Defence has the

8 right to receive information, what is the drift of the Prosecution with

9 respect to certain documents, this document, so that we know how to

10 organise our Defence.

11 MR. MENON: I can put a question to the witness, Your Honour. I

12 was trying to save time. I thought the document itself was -- the

13 relevance of it was very apparent, but I can certainly put a question, a

14 couple of questions to the witness.

15 If we could go back to -- actually, if we could return back to

16 that document.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me say this, Mr. Menon: In addition to what

18 Madam Vidovic is saying, it's not just for them to understand the drift,

19 but it's also for the Chamber. You know, a lot of documents are

20 identified and, without anything being mentioned about their content, are

21 thrown in. I'm not sure whether is it anticipated that, "Okay, fine,

22 there are documents, go and find out what is the relevance, and do the

23 case for the Prosecution", or, you know, it's all for the person who's

24 tendering the document?

25 We would also like to know what is the relevance. Actually, as

Page 5249

1 she stood up, I was just inclined to ask you the same question, and I'm

2 just getting inclined to want to refuse these documents which are just

3 identified and tendered, when we don't know what their relevance is.

4 MR. MENON: Well, as it pertains to this document, I'll certainly

5 put a question to the witness to identify what I believe to be relevant

6 about it.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir.

8 MR. MENON: And if we could go to page 3 of the English version of

9 the document and page 2 of the B/C/S version of the document.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is now 2755?

11 MR. MENON: It's -- no, actually, it's the previous exhibit, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, 778.

14 MR. MENON: Yes.

15 Q. And, sir, I'm going to refer you to -- well, actually, let's bring

16 up the -- it's page 3 of the English version of the document.

17 And, sir, I'm going to refer you to the second paragraph on this

18 particular page in front of you, and it's the third -- well, actually,

19 it's the second paragraph on what appears on the English version in front

20 of us. And if you could read to yourself the first sentence in that

21 particular paragraph, and it's the second paragraph, again.

22 Have you had a chance to read that, sir?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. Now, in that sentence, there's a reference to losing the lines.

25 Can you explain to us what's meant by "the lines"? What does that refer

Page 5250

1 to, sir?

2 A. During combat activities, the lines were lost, our combat lines

3 were lost, because -- pursuant to those reports, because of the withdrawal

4 or the pulling out of the El Mujahedin Detachment and of the 3rd Manoeuvre

5 and the 4th Manoeuvre Battalions from their area of responsibility.

6 Q. And, sir, if you can tell us, why would the -- why would the

7 pullout of the El Mujahedin Detachment and the 3rd Man-Bat and the 4th

8 Man-Bat result -- have resulted in the loss of these lines, if you know?

9 A. As it is stated here, judging from the words of the fighters and

10 the wounded who were there at the time of the attack, they did not know

11 what was going on. There was a melee in the area of combat operations,.

12 And in accordance with this, as it's stated in this document, the system

13 of command and control completely failed, both of the brigades and the

14 battalions concerned, because the situation was not under control.

15 Q. But, sir, what specifically about the pullout of the El Mujahedin

16 Detachment would have resulted in the loss of lines, if you can tell us?

17 And tell us if you know. I mean, I don't want you to speculate.

18 A. Well, this did not concern just the El Mujahedin Detachment's

19 pullout but also the pulling out of the 3rd Manoeuvre Battalion and the

20 4th Manoeuvre Battalion, which means three units were withdrawn from their

21 positions.

22 MR. MENON: And if we could just go back to the first page of both

23 the English and the B/C/S version of the document. I simply wanted to

24 note for the record what the date of this document was, and it's the 29th

25 of July, 1995.

Page 5251

1 Your Honour, with that particular explanation, I would ask that

2 this document be tendered into evidence.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Menon, what we learn here is that the El

5 Mujahid Detachment pulled out from a certain area and that also the 3rd

6 and the 4th Manoeuvre Battalion, I think it was, pulled out, and so for

7 that reason the remaining forces of the -- was it the 328th Brigade --

8 were there left all alone on the front line and they were run down by the

9 Serbs during an attack that ensued shortly after. Is that a correct --

10 MR. MENON: Actually, if we could return to that particular --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

12 MR. MENON: I'm sorry.

13 If we could return to page 3 of the English version of the

14 document, and page 2 of the B/C/S version of the document, and if we could

15 scroll up on the English version of the document.

16 Your Honour, I can certainly -- I mean, I don't want to answer

17 that question, because then I would be testifying. I have a certain

18 interpretation of this particular document, having examined it myself, and

19 I'm not sure if Your Honours would want to hear that. I think Your

20 Honours would probably --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't want your interpretation. We want you to

22 tell us, through the witness, what we are supposed to make -- get the

23 witness to tell us -- to direct us at what we are supposed to make out of

24 the document.

25 MR. MENON: Okay.

Page 5252

1 Q. Sir, can you explain to us -- well, let me return to the question

2 that I had put to you previously.

3 What -- why would the -- why would the pullout of the El Mujahedin

4 Detachment and these two other units have resulted in the loss of these

5 combat lines?

6 A. The very withdrawal of those units from defence positions freed up

7 those lines of defence, and no sufficient or adequate resistance was being

8 offered from them.

9 Q. And, sir, do you know why these particular units were withdrawn

10 from these particular lines of defence?

11 A. I don't know. I wouldn't know that.

12 Q. And do you know how much terrain these particular units covered on

13 the line of defence?

14 A. It's not known to me.

15 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I don't think I can go much further with

16 this witness on this particular point.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The document is admitted, and it was given

18 Exhibit 778 as the exhibit number.

19 MR. MENON: Your Honour, and my -- Mr. Mundis has just indicated

20 to me that the commander of the 328th Brigade will be appearing as a

21 witness shortly, so he perhaps could explain that -- the significance of

22 that particular statement.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

24 MR. MENON: I had asked, actually, before we return to this

25 document, that the witness be shown Exhibit P02755.

Page 5253

1 And if we could scroll down on the English version of the document

2 just a little bit so that we get the first sentence of the text.

3 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to read the first sentence of this

4 document to yourself.

5 A. I've read it.

6 Q. And, sir, are you aware of the event that's described in the first

7 sentence of this paragraph?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. And can you tell us how you became aware of this particular event?

10 A. I came to know about it from members of the military police who

11 were present in this centre for prisoners of war in Zenica.

12 Q. And, sir, can you tell us why the members of the El Mujahedin

13 Detachment were given permission to visit a prisoner of war?

14 A. I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I don't know.

15 MR. MENON: Thank you very much.

16 Your Honour, I would ask now that this particular document be

17 tendered into evidence.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

19 please be given an exhibit number.

20 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that in this

22 case, the Prosecutor has failed to lay the foundation for the admission of

23 this document into evidence. The witness doesn't know the contents of the

24 document. He's not the author of the document.

25 MR. MENON: Well, I mean --

Page 5254

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the witness said he knows about the

2 contents of the first sentence, although I'm not quite sure whether that

3 necessarily establishes a link. But you can --

4 MR. MENON: Your Honour, it's fine. The author of the document or

5 the person whose name is listed on the signature line is going to appear

6 as a witness. As a matter of -- just as a matter of introduction, I

7 thought I would have the witness talk about this particular document,

8 especially since in his statement he refers to an incident which is

9 described in this document. But it's fine if it's marked for

10 identification at this stage.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, then the document is marked for

12 identification. May it please be given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 779.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 MR. MENON: And the final exhibit that I would like to have shown

16 to this witness is P02516.

17 If we could scroll down a little bit on the English version of the

18 document.

19 Q. Sir, can you tell us what this particular document concerns?

20 A. This document speaks of the violent behaviour of the El Mujahedin

21 Detachment and its members.

22 MR. MENON: And if we could go to page 2 in the English version of

23 the document.

24 Q. And can you tell us specifically what incidents it's referring to

25 in respect of the El Mujahedin Detachment?

Page 5255

1 A. Among other things, it is stated here that 20 members of the El

2 Mujahedin Detachment took building material off various homes and took it

3 to the village of Mehurici, near Travnik. They used the material to build

4 a facility for their command, the Command of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

5 Q. And, sir --

6 A. Or, rather, the parent company's command.

7 Q. And, sir, to whom was this particular document sent, sir?

8 A. This document was sent to the Security Administration of the

9 General Staff of the BH Army, among others.

10 Q. And, sir, are you the drafter of this document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And how do you know that, sir?

13 A. I know by my initials, "SS."

14 MR. MENON: Your Honour, I would ask now that this document be

15 tendered into evidence, and with that I would conclude my direct

16 examination.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Menon.

18 The document is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an

19 exhibit number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 780.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. That would certainly be a

22 convenient time to take a break. We'll come back at quarter to 6.00.

23 Court adjourned.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

Page 5256

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Menon.

2 MR. MENON: I'd actually concluded my direct examination.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You had concluded your leading. Thank you so much.

4 Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I will

8 be examining you on behalf of the Defence for General Rasim Delic.

9 You will be able to answer most of my questions with a "yes"

10 or "no." Such is the nature of cross-examination.

11 Please bear in mind that you should always wait for my question to

12 be interpreted before you give an answer, because we speak the same

13 language and this results in a confusion on the transcript.

14 Do you understand what I'm saying?

15 A. Good afternoon to you, too. I understand, yes.

16 Q. First of all, I will be dealing with your statement and then with

17 the documents you commented upon.

18 In paragraph 6 of your statement, you say that prior to the war,

19 you worked in the State Security Service. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Before the war and during the war, these duties were carried out

22 within the framework of the civilian police and within the competences it

23 had; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In paragraph 7 of your statement, you said that you attended a

Page 5257

1 one-year course within the Military Security Service in Belgrade, whereas

2 in fact you attended a course within the State Security Service; is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes, during my tenure in the State Security Service.

5 Q. This course had to do with the civilian security-related matters

6 and not military security-related matters; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Before you became Deputy Commander for Security at the Training

9 Centre in Zenica on the 20th of August, 1992, you had not had any

10 experience in matters of military security; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You assumed your duties in the 3rd Corps in early January of 1993;

13 is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. In the Logistics Department of the 3rd Corps, you worked until the

16 month of February 1995; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I've been asking you this because I have some questions for you

19 concerning paragraph 14 of your statement, about the events in the village

20 of Maline in 1993. You said that you had heard that members of the El

21 Mujahedin unit had cut the throats of some individuals in Maline. You

22 stated this, didn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Spahic, I -- or, rather, if I suggested to you that that event

25 happened in June of 1993, would you accept that in that case, you were

Page 5258

1 far -- it was not even remotely possible for you to receive any

2 information on this event?

3 A. I did not have the exact information about these events. My

4 knowledge about these events was based on the stories rumoured around the

5 members of the BH Army.

6 Q. You did not have any knowledge of the perpetrators involved?

7 A. I didn't have any accurate information on the perpetrators of this

8 incident.

9 Q. You also did not have any knowledge of the measures taken or not

10 taken by the Security Service of the 3rd Corps with regard to these

11 events?

12 A. In relation to this event and in relation to what the Military

13 Security Service may have done, I didn't have any knowledge about that.

14 Q. This, because at the time you worked for the Logistics Centre of

15 the 3rd Corps, which was not even remotely close to where the Military

16 Security Service of the 3rd Corps was stationed; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You didn't receive any reports which would enable you to know

19 whether an investigation was conducted or not?

20 A. The security organ of the logistics base did not receive reports

21 from the ground on these events.

22 Q. Very well. I want to put some questions to you concerning the

23 paragraphs 18 and 17 of your statement. There, you state that from

24 February 1995, you were performing the duties of the Chief of Analysis

25 Department, and you explained that you received reports from the security

Page 5259

1 organs of subordinate units, and on the basis of the information that they

2 provided, you prepared reports that you submitted to your superior; is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Your superior was the Assistant Commander for Security of the 3rd

6 Corps; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Therefore, the assistant commander would be the one to decide on

9 the fate of these reports, he would be the one to decide whether to pass

10 them on or not?

11 A. The Assistant Commander for Security decided which information was

12 to be forwarded and where.

13 Q. He also decided about the information he was going to pass on to

14 the Corps Commander and which information he was not going to pass on; is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes. For the most part, though -- or, rather, most of the

17 information was passed on to the commander, and he was aware of them.

18 There were daily briefings.

19 Q. However, the Security Service could only inform the commander?

20 A. Yes, if there was a procedure for that.

21 Q. But they did not have the obligation to provide all the

22 information to the commander if he was the target of their treatment? And

23 I'm speaking of the commander of the Corps.

24 A. There was no obligation in place to send all the information.

25 Q. Very well. In paragraph 19 of your statement, you said that there

Page 5260

1 were -- there was a rule book in your service. These were the rules

2 governing the work of the Military Security Service; is that right? Is

3 that right? You spoke about that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You've just told us that members of the Military Security Service

6 were subordinate to the corps commander, but will you agree with me if I

7 say that they were responsible for the legality of their work to their

8 superior command?

9 A. Could you please repeat your question?

10 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber to who you reported, as the

11 Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps, and who held you responsible

12 for the legality of your work?

13 A. According to the chain of command, we were responsible to the

14 Commander of the 3rd Corps and to the superior officer -- to the superior

15 organ of the Military Security Service of the -- of the Military Security

16 Administration, that is, of the General Staff.

17 Q. In which situations were you held responsible? Were you reporting

18 to the Chief of the Military Security Administration on what matters?

19 A. Mostly on the matters that were related to security matters of the

20 entire corps and which may have had major repercussions. Also, when we

21 had to seek authorisation to apply certain measures.

22 Q. You're referring to the special methods of covert surveillance and

23 monitoring, and so on?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In paragraph 22 of your statement, you commented -- or, rather,

Page 5261

1 you said that the Assistant Commanders for Security were at each level,

2 subordinated to their commanders, and you mentioned the General Staff in

3 that context. I want to clarify this part of your statement.

4 You will agree with me that the General Staff had its Security

5 Administration. Therefore, the Staff of the Supreme Command or, rather,

6 its commander did not have an assistant for security, rather, he had the

7 Security Administration which had its chief; you know that, don't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At several points in your statement, you said that you sent your

10 reports to the General Staff. When you say, "We submitted reports to the

11 General Staff," do you also include the Security Administration of the

12 General Staff in that context?

13 A. When I say that we sent reports to the General Staff, this implies

14 that we sent our reports to the Military Security Administration of the

15 General Staff.

16 Q. And the Security Administration of the General Staff is not where

17 you worked, and you don't know how they operated?

18 A. No, I didn't work there and I don't know how they worked.

19 However, if we received certain orders from them, we had to adhere to

20 them.

21 Q. You mean if you received orders from that administration, you

22 would comply with those orders. In connection with this, I would like to

23 ask you this: It is true, is it not, that you received orders and

24 missions from the Military Security Administration of the General Staff on

25 certain matters, on certain matters?

Page 5262

1 A. This is not known to me, because while I was in the 3rd Corps

2 Command and as far as I can recall at this point, but I can't really

3 remember receiving any orders from the Military Security Administration of

4 the General Staff.

5 Q. Very well. It is possible that those orders did not reach you,

6 but your assistant -- your superior, who was the Assistant Commander for

7 Security?

8 A. It is possible that such orders reached my superior, Assistant

9 Commander for Security of the Corps Commander. However, my superior

10 officer would forward such orders either to the Analysis Sector or to the

11 Counter-Intelligence Sector or to the Staff Security Sector, depending on

12 the matters concerned and depending on the purview of each of those

13 departments or sectors.

14 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you something that you know about for

15 certain, and that is how your Department for Analysis and Information

16 functioned.

17 First of all, you drafted your information and report exclusively

18 on the basis of information contained in reports that you received from

19 the security organs of your immediate subordinate units; is that so?

20 A. Yes. All written information produced in our department were

21 drafted on the basis of written reports received from security organs of

22 lower or subordinate commands, or possibly from the Counter-Intelligence

23 Department.

24 Q. Very well. The gist of my question is this: Please tell me, you

25 did not verify such information and in no way could you claim whether the

Page 5263

1 facts cited in such reports were correct, accurate, or not; am I right in

2 saying so?

3 A. In our Analysis Department, as far as I can say, we did not

4 conduct any verification in any way.

5 Q. When you would receive such information from your subordinate

6 units, you would inform your immediate superior, Assistant Commander for

7 Security, about the most salient facts; is that so?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. In paragraph 24 of your statement, you state that only in

10 extraordinary circumstances you would send reports to the General Staff.

11 Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. To the Security Administration?

14 A. Yes, to the Military Security Administration, that's right.

15 Q. Given that you did not verify information received from

16 subordinate military security organs, would you accept that you forwarded

17 sometimes unverified information?

18 A. I cannot accept that, for the reason that we, in our information,

19 in reports, for the most part and in a section towards the end of such

20 reports, we would inform the Military Security Administration, in other

21 words, the General Staff, whether we had taken some actions and which,

22 whether we were going to try to verify information, and we would be

23 informing them again about what had gone on before that.

24 Q. Very well. If you had available to you verified information, then

25 you would specify that that information was verified; is that correct?

Page 5264

1 A. That's correct. We can have verified information, reliable

2 source, unreliable source.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 In paragraph 32 of your statement, you said that you personally

5 did not know about any problems concerning the El Mujahid unit during

6 1995; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct, I didn't know.

8 Q. Which means that you did not receive a report from the subordinate

9 units of the 3rd Corps indicating that they had committed grave crimes,

10 such as murder or mistreatment of prisoners of war?

11 A. I did not receive any information about the problems with the El

12 Mujahedin Detachment. If I had received them, I would have passed them

13 on.

14 Q. The Prosecutor showed you some documents, and I would like to put

15 to you the following: Information reached you on transgressions of El

16 Mujahedin. They would attack couples, they would forbid the serving of

17 alcohol, they would attack people who would be sunbathing or bathing in

18 the river, things concerning non-application of religious rules?

19 A. Well, this was hearsay. I received no verified information about

20 these, and I did not receive anything in writing about such matters.

21 Q. In paragraph 33 of your statement, you say that the El Mujahedin

22 Detachment was a target of processing of the Military Security Service

23 through wire-tapping and interception of their written correspondence; is

24 that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 5265

1 Q. You mentioned "informants" or "associates," "collaborators," which

2 you described as Bosnians who were members of that detachment, but what

3 I'd like to suggest to you is as follows: You, in the Analysis

4 Department --

5 A. I apologise.

6 Q. You, in the Analysis Department, did not know about how collection

7 of information and intelligence was going on, because this was within the

8 purview of the Counter-Intelligence Department?

9 A. We people in the Analysis Department knew how information and

10 intelligence was gathered, but we were not involved directly in the

11 collection of such intelligence because we were analysts.

12 Q. You knew who the sources were, but you did not maintain contacts

13 with them?

14 A. I knew, if it was stated, who was the source, but I never met the

15 sources and neither would I know their first name, family name or their

16 identity at all.

17 Q. Thank you. The Counter-Intelligence Department was headed by

18 Mr. Vlajcic; is that so?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. In paragraph 35 of your statement, you explained the way that you

21 processed such information. This is what you explained?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said that you would receive transcripts of conversations or

24 copies of letters from the Counter-Intelligence Department, and then you

25 would analyse that and forward it to your superior officer, and that would

Page 5266

1 be the end of your job; is that so?

2 A. I would receive from the Counter-Intelligence Department

3 translated conversations, translated into Bosnian, so the translation of

4 conversations, and on the basis of such translations and intelligence

5 contained in such conversations, I would draft an information and deliver

6 it to my immediate superior for his signature.

7 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 37 of your statement, you were

8 specifically asked about the El Mujahedin Detachment and its engagement in

9 Vozuca activities. Do you agree with me that, in effect, you do not have

10 any personal knowledge about these events, those events at Vozuca where

11 the El Mujahedin Detachment were reportedly engaged in terms of combat

12 activities?

13 A. I personally have no knowledge. I do not have any firsthand

14 knowledge. My information is based on the information that I would

15 receive from the field.

16 Q. Right. And in connection with this, you said:

17 "I did not receive anything in writing, but I did hear some

18 stories about the murder of Serbs."

19 And you said that they even ordered Serbs to kill other Serbs.

20 Let us clarify this, please.

21 Do you recall saying that or stating that, please?

22 A. I said nothing was reported to me in writing, but I heard some

23 stories that they killed some Serbs.

24 Q. Fine. Do you recall saying that?

25 A. I do recall saying that.

Page 5267

1 Q. But, in effect, this information which ended up in this statement

2 is not something that you received in writing from your subordinate

3 commands, any written information about murders committed by the El

4 Mujahedin Detachment? You received no such report?

5 A. I received no reports. I received reports about killings, but not

6 about this event. I received no event -- reports about this particular

7 event.

8 As I said, nothing was reported to me in writing, but I did hear

9 some stories about them killing some Serbs. I received, in writing,

10 information about the killings when that document was shown to me.

11 Q. Who showed you that document? Let's clear this up. I'm asking

12 you about your knowledge during your service during the war. Do you

13 understand what I'm asking you?

14 A. It seems that I failed to understand you.

15 Q. Fine. Witness, in paragraph 37 of your statement, asked about the

16 El Mujahedin Detachment and their involvement in activities in the Vozuca

17 operation, and this is what I'm discussing, you responded:

18 "Nothing was reported to me in writing, but I heard some stories

19 that they killed some Serbs."

20 And now, after that, you say:

21 "Something was shown to me."

22 What was shown to you? What is it that you're referring to?

23 A. I really cannot answer anything to your question. Are you asking

24 me about the killings of Serbs or ...

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we show the

Page 5268

1 witness his statement and the paragraph 37. That would be Exhibit 770,

2 paragraph 37.

3 Q. Please take a look at this section. You say:

4 "To your question, I can confirm ..."

5 And this is you responding to the Prosecutor:

6 " ... That the El Mujahedin unit were engaged in combat activities

7 during the Vozuca operation. I know that they were either part of the

8 unit or the whole unit stationed in Vozuca. From there they would go to

9 combat. I do not know about any problems occurring or that they were

10 reported or took place with respect to the El Mujahid unit during or after

11 their involvement in combat around Vozuca."

12 Do you see that?

13 A. I see that.

14 Q. Further on, you say:

15 "Nothing was reported written to me, but I heard some stories that

16 they killed some Serbs and that they ordered Serbs to kill other Serbs. I

17 did not pay much attention to this."

18 This is what I'm asking you about.

19 A. I did not pay much attention to this because I had not received,

20 in writing, anything to the effect that these events took place.

21 Q. In other words, you did not receive any written report?

22 A. I did not receive any written report.

23 Q. Did you receive any oral reports? Did you receive any oral

24 report? This was my next question.

25 A. I did not receive any oral reports either. I just heard those

Page 5269

1 stories.

2 Q. You heard those stories, but obviously you did not take them

3 seriously; is that so?

4 A. I did not take them seriously because I was interested only in

5 written information. Written reports were what interested me, because

6 such reports, in writing, were considered by me as a valid document that

7 they could -- that could be forwarded to my superiors, as such.

8 Q. If you had taken such information seriously, then you would have

9 drafted a report on that or would inform some of your colleagues?

10 A. I would have written a report, but how valid it would be, that's a

11 moot point.

12 Q. And you did not do that, did you?

13 A. I did not do that.

14 Q. You did not discuss those stories with military police or other

15 competent bodies of your Command?

16 A. I did not discuss this matter, neither with the military police

17 nor -- well, if there were discussions, those discussions were internal

18 discussions within our department or maybe with some colleagues from

19 another department.

20 Q. Did anyone among you from the Military Security Service try to

21 determine whether there was any truth to those stories?

22 A. This is not known to me. I don't know.

23 Q. Therefore, you did not try to determine the veracity of such

24 stories, and you don't know whether those stories referred to acts

25 committed by the Arabs, generally, who were in Central Bosnia or referring

Page 5270

1 to the acts of El Mujahedin Detachment members?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Do you agree with me that there were many stories concerning the

4 Arabs? Some glorified them, others spread most heinous stories about

5 them; is that so?

6 A. That is correct. This is exactly how it was.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to turn to

8 documents.

9 Can the witness be shown Exhibit 666.

10 Q. Witness, you can see here that the Security Service of the 3rd

11 Corps sent this document on the 21st of June, 1995, to the Security

12 Administration, a document which concerns the activities and events

13 involving the El Mujahedin unit.

14 First of all, let's look at page 2 of the document, which is page

15 4 of the English version.

16 Do you recognise the initials?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Do you recall this document? The initials seem to be yours?

19 A. Yes, they are.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the first page of

21 the document now.

22 Q. Look at the document. It mentions the person called "Mujazin"

23 [phoen], who was travelling and lost his passport and they're speaking of

24 various forgeries.

25 This is page 2, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

Page 5271

1 Do you agree with me that upon reading this part of the document,

2 you could conclude that the Arabs used several forged passports; did you

3 have information to that effect?

4 A. Based on the information contained in this report, one can see

5 that they had several passports.

6 Q. The gist of my question is the following:

7 Can we go back to page 1 of the English version. I want you to

8 read the handwritten annotation.

9 A. I've read it. "Take care that the information about this unit is

10 not used outside the service." I suppose it says "the service."

11 Q. Can you tell us what this means, "take care that the information

12 about this unit is not used outside the service"?

13 A. To my mind, it means that the information should not be

14 disseminated to persons who are not part of the service, that the

15 information should be kept within the service.

16 Q. In other words, within the Service of Military Security; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Your Honours, can this document be admitted into evidence.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you said it's Exhibit 666.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, I'm sorry. Yes, it is.

23 Can the witness be shown Exhibit 772.

24 Q. You've already seen this document today. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5272

1 Q. One would conclude, on the basis of this document, that on the

2 11th of August, 1995, your service, that's to say the Military Security

3 Service of the 3rd Corps, gave its approval to Izudin Besic and --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.

5 Q. ... that it is issuing them with passports?

6 A. Yes, that's true, our service was giving the approval for the

7 issuance of passports to Izudin Besic and Anwar El Sajed Mohamad.

8 Q. Yes, and that's on the 11th of August, 1995?

9 A. Yes, the 11th of August, 1995.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can put the document away.

11 Can the witness be shown D619.

12 In the meantime, please keep in mind the date, the 11th of August,

13 1995.

14 Q. This is a document of the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo,

15 from the Department for Administrative and General Affairs, dated the 5th

16 of June, 1995, sent to the Security Services Centre, Zenica, signed by

17 Zlatan Dzenanovic, chief of the department. Please look at the text.

18 Below subject -- well, the subject says: "Delivery of the decision

19 granting citizenship ...," and it states here:

20 "We hereby send you the decision granting BH citizenship to Anwar

21 El Sajed Mohamed from Egypt."

22 Do you agree this is the same person whose name we saw in the

23 document dated the 11th of August?

24 A. The 11th of August.

25 Q. Of 1995. Do you agree?

Page 5273

1 A. I wouldn't be able to give you an answer, an unequivocal answer.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can you place this

3 exhibit -- can this exhibit be placed on the ELMO, because I want this

4 name to be clearly seen in the document that the Prosecutor showed the

5 witness today. Or perhaps I might have a better version with me. Perhaps

6 this one is better [indicates].

7 Q. Please look at the name "Anwar El Sajed Mohamed." Can it be

8 zoomed in on? Thank you. "Izudin Besic" and "Anwar" -- could you

9 position the document so we see the entire name? Could we also see the

10 rest of the document? That's fine.

11 Do you see that it says "Anwar El Sajed Mohamed"?

12 A. I can't see "El Sajed," but I do see "Anwar."

13 Q. And do you see "Mohamed"?

14 A. I see "Mohamed," although the letter "m" is missing.

15 Q. Very well. But would you accept nevertheless that it's the

16 same --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Some of us are blind, we don't see anything. I'm

18 trying to look, and I understand that this is a B/C/S document. Which one

19 is "Anwar"? Is that "Anwar"? Very faint. And then where is "Mohamed"?

20 Okay.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have "Izudin"

22 behind "Anwar." It's just that it's not quite visible on the ELMO. I

23 saw better copies of this document. We have "Anwar" and then "El." You

24 can see the letter "E" at the very end.

25 Could you move the document to the left a bit, Madam Usher. Thank

Page 5274

1 you.

2 We can see the letter "L," and we can only barely make out the

3 letter "S."

4 Q. Assuming that this is the same person, Witness, would you have --

5 could you in any way explain why an inquiry is sent about this person to

6 your administration when already in the month of June 1995 it is stated

7 that the person is in possession of a passport? Can you account for this?

8 A. I cannot account for that, and I cannot even be sure that this is

9 one and the same person.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Your Honours, can this document be admitted -- or, rather, can it

12 be MFI'd?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is marked for identification. May it

14 please be given an exhibit number, MFI.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 781.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask the OTP if they have a

19 better-quality copy of this document, to send it to us. We should also

20 like to have the original of the document, E772.

21 Q. Witness, assuming that a person has already been issued with a

22 passport, then there's no reason for the Military Security Administration

23 to give their position as to whether the person should be issued with a

24 passport or not?

25 A. If somebody already has a passport, then there's no need for that

Page 5275

1 person to ask for a new passport to be issued.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: What happened when the one passport has either

4 expired or is full, that one has to go and apply for a new one, or this

5 never happens in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, if a

7 passport has expired, then one asks for a new one. However, if the

8 passport has not expired, then there is no need for an application for a

9 new one.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. In connection with this, do you agree that the application must

13 clearly state whether an extension of the passport is asked for or for a

14 new one?

15 A. This document clearly shows that they are asking for a renewal of

16 the existing passport.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, that they are not

18 asking for a renewal but for a new passport.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said exactly the

20 opposite of what was reflected in the transcript.

21 Q. You've just said that this document clearly shows that they are

22 asking for the issuing of a new passport and not for a renewal; is that

23 right?

24 A. Evidently this has been misinterpreted, yes. I said precisely

25 what you just said. They are asking for a new passport to be issued, not

Page 5276

1 for a renewal.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I can't really remember. In

4 countries where you cannot renew an old passport, you have to ask for a

5 new one. Is it the same thing in your country?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in our country a

7 passport is issued for a fixed term, and it normally states the date of

8 expiry. Normally, as far as I am aware, a passport is issued for a period

9 of five years, at the expiry of which a new passport must be applied for.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: How is the application for that new one couched?

12 Is it couched as an application for a renewal or is it couched as an

13 application for a new passport?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, one can apply for a renewal,

15 in which case the passport will bear a statement that it has been renewed,

16 and it will also state the period by which it has been renewed.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you to mean --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And if one asks for a new -- one

19 applies for a new passport, then the person will be issued with a new copy

20 of a passport.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

22 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps, which you were

25 part of, you did not work on these cases, rather it was within the remit

Page 5277

1 of the lawyer within the 3rd Corps? And I'm referring to passports.

2 A. After a security clearance was obtained, after vetting, an officer

3 from the Legal Affairs Department would be charged with dealing with these

4 matters. The passport itself was issued by the police.

5 Q. Let us clarify this. The lawyer responded to these applications

6 and forwarded them to the police, the Ministry of the Interior; is that

7 right?

8 A. We would receive an application for a passport to be issued.

9 After we completed the security screening, we would state that a -- the

10 given person can be issued with a passport. In this case, the person --

11 the member of the El Mujahedin Detachment went to the police, where he

12 received the passport.

13 Our department did not issue passports. This was not their job.

14 This was the duty of individuals from the unit in question.

15 Q. Do you agree with me that one of the rare issues on which the El

16 Mujahedin Detachment members would turn to the organ of the 3rd Corps

17 would be precisely these passports?

18 A. I know that these -- this was one of the first instances when they

19 turned to them. I don't know about the other ones.

20 Q. This means that you did not come across any other such requests or

21 applications?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Well, now I'd like you to see another document, P2173.

24 Can we show page 2 -- or, rather, can we show the document in such

25 a way that the signature block is visible.

Page 5278

1 Do you recognise your initials, Witness?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Please take a look at paragraph 2 of this document --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paragraph 2 of -- yes, thank you very much.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you agree with me that this document discusses the fact that

7 Bosniak young men in the El Mujahedin Detachment were incentivised [sic]

8 by money and that they were given food?

9 A. I do agree. I think that the young men who were engaged in the

10 El Mujahedin Detachment received some rations.

11 Q. From the El Mujahedin Detachment?

12 A. Yes, from the members of the El Mujahedin Detachment or from the

13 officers in charge.

14 Q. Fine. Then please take a look at paragraph 3 of this document,

15 the latter part of paragraph 3.

16 And that would be page 2, Your Honours, the first sentence on page

17 2.

18 Witness, in the third paragraph it is written, the last sentence

19 of the third paragraph, you also told Abu Musif that [indiscernible] Al

20 Misri came and left behind 79.000 Deutsche marks, and that he presumes

21 that a portion of that amount was given to the El Zubeir's group.

22 In connection with this, I would like to ask you, because you

23 authored this document and I presume that this information resulted from

24 intelligence that your service obtained through intercepted conversations,

25 please, did you know that -- did you receive intelligence that

Page 5279

1 autonomously from the El Mujahedin Detachment there was a group under the

2 name of "Abu Zubeir"?

3 A. This was not known to me.

4 Q. Did you receive such intelligence or information?

5 A. I can't recall.

6 Q. Are you the author of this text?

7 A. Yes, yes. This information was drafted on the basis, as can be

8 seen, on the basis of an intercepted conversation.

9 Q. You can confirm the authenticity of this information?

10 A. Yes, I can. This is authentic information, but whether the claims

11 therein are accurate, that I cannot --

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is a very fair answer.

13 Your Honours, please, if this document can be admitted into

14 evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 782.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now may P2176 be shown to the

20 witness, please.

21 And for the record, this is a document of the Military Security

22 Service Department of the 3rd Corps, dated 21st of June, 1995, concerning

23 the El Mujahedin Detachment Intelligence.

24 Could we scroll down the document so that we see the signature

25 block.

Page 5280

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document that I drafted.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Now please take a look at paragraph 2 of this document. It

4 discusses some intelligence concerning activities of the El Mujahedin

5 Detachment members. Please focus on the sentence:

6 "In a conversation of E. Ejub ..."

7 Ejub wanted to know where E. Jetam informed him that he was in

8 Tuzla group, that the emir was Hubajb [phoen], and that the Tuzla group

9 belongs to the group of El Zubeir. Where did you get this information and

10 who drafted?

11 A. This is the information that I drafted.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. May the document be

13 admitted into evidence, Your Honours, please.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit 783.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now, given that you were involved in analysis, as far as I could

20 grasp, in your documents Abu Zubeir's group and the El Mujahedin group are

21 being both mentioned. Please tell us -- tell us, did you have information

22 that it was possible for our units to tell those groups apart when it came

23 to incidents?

24 A. This is not known to me.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me just -- what do you mean by "our units,"

Page 5281

1 ma'am, if that's what you said?

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, thank you, Your Honours.

3 Of course, I did not -- I said, "How was it possible to make a distinction

4 between the El Zubeir and El Mujahedin Detachments," and of course I never

5 said "our unit."

6 I will repeat my question.

7 Your Honours, I asked whether you had information, whether it was

8 possible, and I meant the subordinate units of the 3rd Corps, to tell

9 those groups of Arabs apart, those groups who were involved in incidents.

10 Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. And, Witness, you tried to answer. Can you answer right now,

12 please?

13 A. This is not known to me. However, units out on the field from

14 subordinate commands, where combat activities were taking place and where

15 they did take place, and where units are stationed, given that they were

16 there on the ground every day, they were supposed to be distinguished.

17 Q. That's your assumption?

18 A. I said this is my assumption, but I said that I did not personally

19 know, and I personally did not know the distinction.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, very well.

21 Now I would like the witness to be shown document 21 -- P2180.

22 Q. Witness, please, do you agree that this is an information coming

23 from the Military Security Department, dated 22nd of June, 1995?

24 A. I agree.

25 Q. It concerns the preparations for the start of Islamic school in

Page 5282

1 the El Mujahedin Detachment.

2 Now, could we please show the document so that the signature block

3 is visible. Thank you.

4 Witness, do you agree that you authored this document as well?

5 A. I agree.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down the Bosnian

7 version, please. I would like the witness to be able to see the

8 annotation on page 1. Page 1 of the Bosnian version, please, and the

9 English version as well. And could you focus the handwritten note on the

10 document, please.

11 Q. Witness, can you read this note?

12 A. "Use exclusively in operative work; not to be used -- this data

13 not to be used outside of the service."

14 Q. What is this supposed to mean, Witness?

15 A. This means that monitoring, surveillance and collection of

16 information should be continued, meaning the information on the work of

17 the school.

18 Q. Fine. Would I be right in understanding this document if I were

19 to say that this note means that this information should not be made known

20 outside the Military Security Service?

21 A. This was not necessary, because it concerns the establishment of a

22 school, and you stated this well, and this intelligence from this report

23 should not be used outside the service and that they should be used

24 exclusively for operative work.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Fine, thank you.

Page 5283

1 May I tender this document into evidence, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

3 please be given an exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 784.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, why is it relevant to learn about

7 the establishment of a school? I suppose it's a school for young

8 students, not for soldiers. Right? But what relevance does this have to

9 the indictment? Can you clarify or ...

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the contents of this

11 document are not material. For the Defence, what is material is the

12 handwritten note to the effect that documents with certain contents should

13 be kept within the service and not to be disseminated outside the

14 service. But this is not school for children. Unfortunately, this is a

15 school for soldiers, Your Honours. It discusses young men and the intake

16 of young men into this Islamic school.

17 Maybe we can take a look at the English version so that we see how

18 it's translated.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. The document was not shown on the screen

20 long enough for me to catch that this was a school for the soldiers, but

21 so be it. What is the significance of this information having to be kept

22 within the security services?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this point this is

24 a very delicate issue for me to elaborate upon at this juncture.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: I hope to be, well, what do I say, wiser about

Page 5284

1 this matter later on.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honours.

3 I don't recall whether this document has been given an exhibit

4 number. It has.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's 784.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope that we'll be able to see the

7 document P775 -- correction, that is Exhibit 775.

8 I withdraw this, Your Honours. We've already seen it.

9 774, 774.

10 Q. Witness, the Prosecutor recently showed you this document. Do you

11 recall?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. He quoted a small portion of this document, a section which says:

14 "On that occasion, El Mujahedin Detachment's members stated that

15 the basic goal of their struggle was to destroy the Croats and the Serbs."

16 This is what he told you. Do you agree that it also reads that

17 they expect all Muslims to be on Allah's path, and that because of the

18 differences, conflicts will arise sooner or later between those units, and

19 that the Efendi Seric is a key author.

20 Do you know who this Mr. Seric is?

21 A. Efendi Seric is the leader of the Islamic community in Federation

22 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. This "Kjafir" means "the Devil"; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you agree that this information contains a piece of information

Page 5285

1 that the Army of BiH's struggle is being negated, they expressed their

2 lack of acceptance of President Izetbegovic, the flag and the Commander of

3 Army of BiH?

4 A. I agree, and this is how it's written.

5 Q. Is this the only information of that sort that you received?

6 A. I don't know about anything else. If I were to see them, maybe I

7 would be reminded of them.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. This document can be put

9 away.

10 I have only a handful of other questions, Your Honours, but I'm

11 mentioning this because it's 7.00, and tomorrow I will have only a few

12 questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the end for today?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

16 Sir, you are -- we are not finished with your testimony. If you

17 can come back here tomorrow at 9.00 in this same court, 9.00 in the

18 morning.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may stand down.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Court adjourned to 9.00 tomorrow morning.

23 Court adjourned.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of

Page 5286

1 November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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