Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6527

1 Tuesday, 4 December 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, everybody.

7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This is

9 case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12 Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

15 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Kyle Wood for the Prosecution, assisted

16 by our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 And for the Defence.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

20 morning to my learned friends from the Office of the Prosecutor. Vasvija

21 Vidovic and Nicholas Robson, representing General Rasim Delic, with our

22 legal assistant, Lana Deljkic.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 Good morning, sir.

25 May the witness please make the declaration.

Page 6528

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may be seated, sir. Make sure

6 you're comfortable, and good morning to you. Good morning to you, sir.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 Mr. Mundis.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Mr. Alispahic is appearing for purposes of cross-examination under

12 Rule 92 bis, so the Prosecution has no questions, his statement having

13 been admitted.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

15 And even before we do that, may I just put on the record that we

16 continue to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis, as Judge Harhoff is not available

17 today. Thank you very much.

18 Mr. Robson.

19 MR. ROBSON: Good morning, Your Honours.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Robson:

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Alispahic. My name is Nicholas Robson. I

22 represent General Delic, and I'll be asking you some questions today.

23 Just by way of explanation: During the course of this case, you

24 gave three statements to investigators from the Office of the Prosecution.

25 Two of those statements, dated the 22nd of December, 2005, and the 27th of

Page 6529

1 January, 2006, have already been admitted into evidence before this Trial

2 Chamber. Those are your second and third statements.

3 The first statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecution

4 was dated the 7th of November, 2004. That statement has not been

5 admitted. There are some details within that statement that I will be

6 asking you about today.

7 Just starting with some background questions, if I may. It's

8 right that during the war, you joined the Territorial Defence in May 1992,

9 and soon after that time you went to an army training centre in Zenica,

10 where you were there until February 1993; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And after February 1993, you joined the 3rd Military Police

13 Battalion of the 3rd Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In your statements, you explained that the 3rd Military Police

16 Battalion was composed of different units. There were two companies, a

17 traffic company, a logistics platoon, and a services platoon. You were a

18 member of the Services Platoon; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the Services Platoon was responsible for on-site criminal

21 investigations?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it's right that the commander of the 3rd Military Police

24 Battalion was Zaim Mujezinovic?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 6530

1 Q. Now, below Commander Mujezinovic, but above you in the hierarchy

2 of the Military Police Battalion, was the commander of the Services

3 Platoon; am I correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Before you joined the 3rd Military Police Battalion, am I right in

6 saying that at no stage had you received any relevant training or

7 experience to enable you to carry out your duties properly within the

8 Services Platoon?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is it correct that most of your colleagues in the Services

11 Platoon also lacked training and skills to enable them to carry out their

12 role properly?

13 A. 60 per cent weren't.

14 Q. Concerning your role in the Services Platoon, am I right in saying

15 that you had a duty to investigate when it appeared that a crime had been

16 committed by a member of the ARBiH?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in addition to carrying out criminal investigation, is it

19 right that the Services Platoon could occasionally be ordered to collect

20 prisoners of war and transport them to the Reception Centre at Zenica KP

21 Dom?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In relation to the 3rd Military Police Battalion, am I correct in

24 saying that there were two lines of command, so within the

25 command-and-control line, command was carried out by the corps commander;

Page 6531

1 however, within the professional line, it was carried out by the assistant

2 commander for security of the 3rd Corps?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Concerning the collection of prisoners of war and transportation

5 to the Reception Centre, is it right that instructions would normally be

6 received through the professional line of reporting?

7 A. I don't understand your question.

8 Q. Concerning the collection and transportation of prisoners of war,

9 am I right in saying that you would normally receive instructions through

10 the professional line of reporting; in other words, instructions would

11 normally originate with the assistant commander for security?

12 A. I received orders from my immediate supervisor. I don't know

13 where he had gotten them from. I wouldn't be able to tell you.

14 Q. Okay. In your statements, you refer to two occasions when you

15 collected prisoners of war from the El Mujahedin Detachment. You refer to

16 one occasion when you took over some women of Serb ethnicity from the El

17 Mujahedin Detachment at the Vatrostalna facility. You also talk about

18 another occasion when you collected a number of captured Serb soldiers

19 from the El Mujahedin Detachment camp in Zavidovici Municipality.

20 Do you recall explaining about those two occasions?

21 A. I remember when I provided my statement to the Office of the

22 Prosecutor.

23 Q. And in your statement, you said that those were the only occasions

24 that you had dealings with the El Mujahedin Detachment in relation to

25 prisoners of war; is that correct?

Page 6532

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. I want to turn, first of all, to the occasion when you

3 collected the three women.

4 In your second statement given to the Office of the Prosecution,

5 you explain how you went to the El Mujahedin Detachment facility at

6 Vatrostalna. Is it right that there was you and a driver that went to

7 collect the women?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In that statement, you say the following. This is after you've

10 collected the women: "Once we..." --

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give us the date and paragraph that you are

12 reading from, sir; The date of the statement.

13 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, it's the second statement, which is the

14 22nd of December, 2005, and it's paragraph 38.

15 Q. So, in the statement, you say: "Once we moved away from the

16 Mujahedin camp, I told the ladies to remove the blindfolds and asked them

17 whether they were maltreated in any way. They replied in the negative."

18 Now I want to ask you some questions about that.

19 Having collected these three women, am I right in saying that,

20 before they were taken to the Reception Centre for Prisoners of War, you,

21 first of all, took them into the Service Platoon office?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So the Service Platoon office is where your unit was based. Is

24 that office located close to or actually inside KP Dom?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6533

1 Q. Which is it; is it actually within the KP Dom compound?

2 A. Our unit was billeted in one part of the KP Dom. We were

3 separated from the civilian part.

4 Q. So you had the opportunity to speak to the three women during the

5 journey and also at the Service Platoon office. Do you remember asking

6 them if they had been mistreated?

7 A. Yes. As we went to the main road, when I told them to remove

8 their blindfolds, Resa [as interpreted] was a member of the army or

9 brought from some unit, and when we brought those two -- three women, the

10 practice was to ask them whether they had been ill-treated, hurt, whether

11 they had any objections. I asked them, and I received a negative answer.

12 There were no traces on them of any physical abuse, and they indeed

13 confirmed that they hadn't been ill-treated, at least at that moment.

14 That's what they said to me.

15 Q. You just mentioned a name there. The record didn't capture the

16 name. Could you repeat for us who was the member of the army that you

17 mentioned?

18 A. I did not mention any names. I said that even when we brought in

19 army members to our unit on such grounds, we were duty-bound to ask them

20 whether they had been ill-treated or hurt. I'm talking within that

21 context. I'm telling you that our every encounter with persons that we

22 brought in meant that they would be asked whether they were ill-treated or

23 hurt, and I never mentioned any names. I said that "whoever," whichever

24 member of the army was brought in.

25 I can illustrate this by saying that, if somebody was in an army

Page 6534

1 unit and we were supposed to bring that person into our centre, it was our

2 duty to ask them whether they had been hurt in the place where they had

3 been staying before having been brought to us.

4 Q. Thank you for that clarification. You just said that, "Even when

5 we brought in army members to our unit on such grounds, we were duty-bound

6 to ask them whether they had been ill-treated or hurt."

7 Can you just explain which army members you're talking about;

8 members of which army?

9 A. The regular army, members of the BiH Army unit. For example, if

10 they had deserted or something else, we would bring them into our centre.

11 It was our common practice to ask them that within that context.

12 Q. And just for clarification, that would also apply to prisoners of

13 war from --

14 A. Yes, yes. On two occasions, when I brought them in, I had to ask

15 them because certain forms had to be filled in to show whether they had

16 any traces of ill-treatment on their bodies, whether on reception they had

17 shown traces of previous ill-treatment.

18 Q. Okay. We're going to look at some of the documentation that you

19 completed.

20 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, at this stage, perhaps we could go into

21 private session, as we remain on the topic of the three ladies.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6535











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Page 6544

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24 [Open session]

25 MR. ROBSON: I'd now like to turn to the subject of the prisoners

Page 6545

1 of war, the men that you collected.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we just get confirmation that we're in open

3 session.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, now we're in open session.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

6 Yes. You may proceed, Mr. Robson.


8 Q. Now, according to paragraph 22 of your first statement, dated the

9 17th of November, 1994 [sic], you said the following about the Serb

10 prisoners of war: "I went to the second..." --

11 Sorry, I apologise. 17th of November of 2004 is the date of the

12 statement. That's my mistake.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. I was just saying is he dealing with

15 paragraph 22.


17 Q. And in that paragraph, you state: "I went to the second gate,

18 where the 12 VRS soldiers were lined up."

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Are you starting from the middle of the

20 paragraph or where? Yes.

21 MR. ROBSON: You have it, Your Honour.

22 Q. You state: "I went to the second gate, where the 12 VRS soldiers

23 were lined up. I took them over and brought them with the minibus to my

24 office at the Service Platoon. I wrote down their names; and, after that,

25 they were handed over to the Gathering Centre of Prisoners of War."

Page 6546

1 Is that correct, what you told the investigator in that statement?

2 A. It's unclear to me, totally, the question.

3 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, perhaps we could bring up the statement

4 on the screen and show the witness. That might be the easiest. So the

5 statement is D732. It's page 4 in English and page 4 in the B/C/S

6 version.

7 Perhaps before I ask Mr. Alispahic to look at paragraph 22,

8 perhaps we can look at the first page to confirm that it is, indeed, his

9 statement made in November 2004.

10 Could we just go to the first page in both documents, please.

11 Q. So would you agree with me, Mr. Alispahic, that what we can see

12 here is what appears to be a statement given by you on the 17th of

13 November, 2004?

14 MR. ROBSON: And if we can scroll to the bottom of the English

15 version, where I hope we can see there's a signature.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


18 Q. And that's your signature we can see there under --

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. ROBSON: If we can go back to page 4 in both versions, please.

21 Q. Now, what I'm interested in is the part of the statement, and it's

22 towards the end of paragraph 22. I hope it's on your page.

23 Do you see the part that says: "I went to the second gate, where

24 12 VRS soldiers were lined up. I took them over and brought them with the

25 minibus to my office at the Services Platoon. I wrote down their names;

Page 6547

1 and, after that, they were handed over to the Gathering Centre of

2 Prisoners of War."

3 Do you see that part of the statement?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you agree that what you said there is correct; in other

6 words, you collected the prisoners of war, you took them to your office at

7 the Services Platoon, and there you wrote down their names and took

8 information from them?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So, as with the three Serb women, once again you had the

11 opportunity to speak to these prisoners during the course of the journey,

12 and, also, you had the chance to see them and speak with them while you

13 were at the Service Platoon office; am I correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, then, if we can look at this final sentence in paragraph 22,

16 what it states is: "I could not see any injuries or bruises on these 12

17 VRS soldiers. I also asked them if they had been maltreated, but they

18 denied."

19 Do you see that part of your statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you stand by what you told the investigator when you gave

22 the statement?

23 A. In a brief conversation with them, that's what it says, and it's

24 correct what is written down, meaning that they told me that they had not

25 been mistreated or hurt.

Page 6548

1 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if I could show the witness a document

2 at this stage, it's P2682.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess that you're not tendering D732. It's a

4 statement, anyway.

5 MR. ROBSON: Correct, Your Honour, I'm not.

6 Q. Mr. Alispahic, could you confirm that this is a document from the

7 3rd Military Police Battalion, dated the 29th of September, 1995, and the

8 subject is: "Taking over members of the so-called VRS from the

9 El Mujahedin Detachment"?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. ROBSON: If we could look at page 2 in the B/C/S version and

12 page 3 in the English, please.

13 Q. Can you confirm that that is your signature on this document?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. ROBSON: If we can return back to the first page of both

16 documents, please.

17 Q. As we saw a little earlier with the three Serb women, am I right

18 in saying that, once again, this is an Official Note listing the names of

19 the persons that you brought into the Reception Centre?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. ROBSON: And in the English version, if we could just look at

22 page 2, just to confirm the names. If we could scroll down the page in

23 this document, please, and if we could look at the final page in English,

24 please.

25 Q. So what we can see here is the name of the three Serb men that

Page 6549

1 were brought in; is that so -- Sorry, I beg your pardon, the ten Serb men

2 that were brought in?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Now, when we looked -- when we discussed the three Serb women a

5 little earlier, we saw that, for each person, you filled out a form which

6 described whether there were any signs of sickness or injury. Would a

7 similar form have been completed in respect of each of these ten Serb

8 prisoners of war?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And, again, if you had seen any injuries or signs of mistreatment

11 on those soldiers, that would have been entered and recorded onto that

12 sheet; is that right?

13 A. Yes, because they would not have been admitted to the centre if

14 there were any injuries on them that we did not report or note down.

15 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, if this document could please be

16 admitted into evidence.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: P2682 is admitted into evidence. May it please be

18 given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 948.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. ROBSON: If we could now turn to Exhibit --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Just before we remove the document from the

23 screen, did I hear you say, Mr. Robson, that the people on that list were

24 ten?

25 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, according to this document that we just

Page 6550

1 saw a moment ago, there were ten names mentioned.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just double-check something with the witness.

3 Witness, in your statement that Mr. Robson has been discussing

4 with you, at paragraph 22, you talk of "12 VRS soldiers." Do you remember

5 that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that in the first

7 statement, it was said "12," but this is the correct information that was

8 written down of those who were brought in. It means that on the basis of

9 a report on taking over persons, it was said that there were such-and-such

10 a number of them, but exactly the number of persons that I took over was

11 ten.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Let's try and reconcile your statements,

13 then, or at least get an explanation.

14 Do I understand you to say that this ten is the same number that

15 you are referring to in your statement dated the 27th of January, 2006, at

16 paragraph 4, where you say: "I remember that I went to the Mujahedin camp

17 when I took over ten to 11 Serb prisoners of war"?

18 Are you talking about the same incident here in this paragraph and

19 in the other paragraph in the other statement, paragraph 22?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I gave my statement, I didn't

21 remember, I didn't know the number of persons involved when this was

22 presented.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand, Mr. Alispahic, and I'm not trying to

24 tie you down to numbers. I just want to know that what you refer to in

25 paragraph 4 of your statement of 2006 is the same incident that you are

Page 6551

1 referring to in your statement of 2004. Are you talking about the same

2 incident?

3 The reason I'm asking you is --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you so much.

6 You may proceed, Mr. Robson.

7 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 If we could look at Exhibit 875, please.

9 Q. So, Mr. Alispahic, a moment ago, we looked at an Official Note

10 relating to the hand-over of the ten prisoners of war. Can you confirm

11 that what we see before us now is a transfer list relating to the same ten

12 persons, and it's dated the 29th of September, 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And, again, is this yet another form that you had to complete when

15 the men were brought into the Reception Centre?

16 A. Yes. This is the document used to be handed over to the

17 admittance centre, because otherwise they would not be able to be -- or

18 they could not be admitted.

19 Q. So from these documents, what we can conclude is that at every

20 stage from the moment you took the prisoners of war, there was a record to

21 show what happened to the prisoners; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And if we look at this list of prisoners, we can see two names

24 there: Milorad Panjic [sic] and Nedja [sic] Pecanac.

25 MR. ROBSON: I will come to these two names in a moment, if I may.

Page 6552

1 Your Honours, if that document could be put away, I'd like to turn

2 to P2687, P2687. This is the correct document.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Alispahic, the B/C/S version of this document is a little

4 hard to see, but -- and I can supply you with a hard copy, if necessary.

5 But would you agree with me that what this document is a report

6 from the 3rd Corps Security Services to the General Staff Security

7 Administration?

8 A. Based on what is written here, it should be the way you suggest.

9 Q. And we can see a heading that says: "Results of the preliminary

10 interview with Prisoners of War Milorad Panic and Nedja [sic] Pecanac."

11 MR. ROBSON: And if we could just look at page 2 in the B/C/S

12 version and page 2 in the English as well -- I beg your pardon. If we

13 could go back to page 1 in the B/C/S version, and if we can scroll down

14 the page in the B/C/S.

15 Q. Would you agree with me that this document bears the signature

16 block of Agan Haseljic, who is the assistant commander for security in the

17 3rd Corps?

18 A. That's what it says.

19 Q. So this document relates to a preliminary interview with those two

20 men that I mentioned.

21 MR. ROBSON: If we can now look at page 3 in the English and page

22 2 in the B/C/S.

23 Q. Would you agree with me that this is a second document that is

24 appended to that first document from the assistant commander for security?

25 A. This is probably just one component. It was based on this

Page 6553

1 conversation that the document was produced.

2 Q. Okay. Well, let's have a look at the second document accompanying

3 Commander Haseljic's report.

4 Would you agree with me that this document --

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just so that we can follow, where is it being

6 deduced from these documents that there is a second document? We are left

7 behind.

8 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, what I'll do is I'll first just

9 establish what this second document is, and then I'll --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But when you say to him, "When you look at this

11 document, can you see that there is a second document," what must he look

12 at in this document to see that there is a second document?

13 MR. ROBSON: I'll clarify that, Your Honour.

14 Q. So, a moment ago, we saw a report from the 3rd Corps Military

15 Security Service. Would you agree with me that when we look at this

16 document, this is a separate -- this is a second document, or certainly

17 appears to be, dated the 30th of September, 1995, and it has a

18 heading: "Conduct of the preliminary interview with the members of the

19 so-called 'VRS'- Milorad Panic and Nedja [sic] Pecanac"?

20 A. It's a male, isn't it?

21 MR. ROBSON: I'm told that the name is "Nedjo Pecanac."

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the previous document, was it not Milorad

23 "Pajic," not "Panic"?

24 MR. ROBSON: Milorad is the first name, I believe, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: But was this surname not spelled with a "J" instead

Page 6554

1 of an "N," in the previous document?

2 MR. ROBSON: I believe it was, but if I can just try and ascertain

3 what this document is.

4 Q. Mr. Alispahic, you agree that we have a document in front of you

5 that has a subject heading: "Conduct of preliminary interview with ..."

6 two named persons? Would you like to see a hard copy of this, if it's

7 hard to make it out?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do think it's very hard to make out, this

9 document.

10 MR. ROBSON: Okay. If we could please turn to the second page,

11 the next page in this document that we have on our screens in the B/C/S

12 version, and the last page in the English, page 5.

13 Q. So, Mr. Alispahic, this second document that we have just looked

14 at, would you agree that you are the author of that document?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. ROBSON: So if we can go back to the page before in the B/C/S

17 version and page 3 in the English version. Page 3 in the English, please.

18 Q. So as you are the author of this document, which relates to a --

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this page 3 of the English?

20 MR. ROBSON: It is, Your Honour, it's correct.

21 Q. So as you are the author of this document, which relates to a

22 preliminary interview with the two named persons, is it correct to say

23 that you carried out an interview with them?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And if we look at the first paragraph of this document, we can see

Page 6555

1 that you carried out that interview on the 30th of September, 1995; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if you could please take a look through the contents of this

5 document, and if you could take the opportunity to read both pages of the

6 B/C/S version.

7 Could you please confirm, if you're able to do so, that nowhere in

8 this document does it suggest that these two Serb prisoners of war were

9 mistreated in any way?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we turn over the English page so that we can

11 keep reading.


13 Q. Have you had the chance to read the document?

14 A. It's a poor copy. Well, I managed to some extent, but not

15 everything.

16 Q. Again, if you'd like a hard copy, Mr. Alispahic, I can supply you

17 with one.

18 A. Fine.

19 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, perhaps would you like to see the third

20 page in English, just to read the contents of that?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we scroll down the English, please, or turn it

22 around. Go to the next page.


24 Q. So can you confirm, Mr. Alispahic, that nowhere in your document

25 does it suggest that these two men were mistreated at any stage during

Page 6556

1 their detention?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then just to round off this document - if we could return back

4 to the first page in the English and B/C/S version - we saw that your

5 interview was carried out on the 30th of September; and, in this first

6 document entitled "Report," this is also dated the 30th of September, the

7 heading being: "Results of the preliminary interview with prison

8 Prisoners of War Milorad Panic and Nedjo Pecanac," would you agree that

9 this report to the General Staff Security Administration seems to be based

10 on your preliminary interview? Are you able to say?

11 A. It probably is.

12 MR. ROBSON: Your Honours, could this document please be admitted

13 into evidence.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

15 please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit number 949.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MR. ROBSON: Your Honour, I note the time. Perhaps it would be a

19 good moment to take the break.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 We'll take the break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

22 Court adjourned.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Robson.

Page 6557

1 MR. ROBSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Alispahic, in your statements, you discuss the El Mujahedin

3 Detachment. Would you agree with me that the El Mujahedin Detachment did

4 not have its own military police unit?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In your first statement of the 17th of November, 2004, at

7 paragraph 17, you say that: "I have never investigated a crime committed

8 by a soldier from an Arabic country."

9 Am I correct in stating that, during the time you served in the

10 3rd Military Police Battalion, you had no reason to investigate any member

11 of the El Mujahedin Detachment?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In your second statement, which was taken in 2005, you talk about

14 the security organ of the El Mujahedin Detachment. Now, initially, in

15 paragraph 31, you state: "The security organ of the El Mujahedin was a

16 foreigner."

17 When we read that statement, we can see that at that point, when

18 you were interviewed, you could not recall the name of that person who was

19 the security organ.

20 As we read through the statement, at paragraph 44, it becomes

21 clear that the investigator showed you a photograph of a man; and on that

22 photograph, the name "Abu Aiman" was written. You then recognised that

23 man as being the security organ of the El Mujahedin Detachment; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes. That's how he introduced himself.

Page 6558

1 Q. So did you ever see anything official, such as a document or

2 anything in writing, that showed that Abu Ajman was the security organ of

3 the El Mujahedin Detachment?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was it Abu Ajman himself who told you that he was the security

6 organ of the detachment?

7 A. Well, we talked, and he probably said that. We talked on the

8 phone, and he said that he was working with the security. Was he ever

9 appointed or not is something that I can't tell you. That's what he said.

10 I'm not sure if it's true or not, but that's what he said. I never saw

11 this written anywhere in a document or anything like that.

12 Q. Okay. Do you have any personal knowledge of whether Abu Ajman

13 sent reports to the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps or any

14 other unit?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Would you agree with me that the El Mujahedin Detachment did not

17 have a security service or security organ like other ARBiH units?

18 A. Believe me, I don't know how they were organised. I never saw a

19 chart or anything like that, and I don't know how it functioned.

20 Q. In your second statement from 2005, at paragraph 76 of the

21 statement, you state: "I might have had approximately 50 meetings with

22 Aiman." Is that correct?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How many meetings did you, in fact, have with Abu Ajman? Can you

25 remember?

Page 6559

1 A. This figure here was stated in the last statement I made, which I

2 signed. As I was signing, I told them that the figure was erroneous. The

3 Prosecutor, who was talking to me -- or rather, the interpreter explained

4 to me that this wasn't material. I think there was a total of between

5 five and ten meetings, in my estimate, in the barracks with the Military

6 Police Battalion and the two times I went to see them over there. Ajman

7 and I never met anywhere else, aside from the barracks.

8 Q. So, if you only had between five and ten meetings with Abu Ajman,

9 and that included the two occasions when you took over the Serb prisoners

10 of war, would I be correct in saying that you had only limited involvement

11 with the El Mujahedin Detachment?

12 A. Yes. I only had involvement with the detachment when I received

13 orders from my superior.

14 Q. So would you agree that, from your limited involvement with the

15 El Mujahedin Detachment, this particular detachment did not, in fact,

16 appear to be a regular unit of the 3rd Corps, like other ARBiH units that

17 you had to deal with?

18 A. Based on my work, based on what I saw, they didn't have the same

19 structure. They weren't organised the same way as us; and by "us," I mean

20 the regular units. Whenever we went there, they gave us whatever

21 information they thought was necessary and any explanations that they

22 cared to give us as to why they were doing certain things.

23 But as far as I know, they weren't structured the same way as all

24 the other units. I'm not really familiar with their structure; but during

25 our brief meetings, that was my impression.

Page 6560

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Alispahic.

2 MR. ROBSON: I have no further questions for him.


4 MR. WOOD: Nothing, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.

6 Judge.

7 Sir, thank you very much. This brings us to the conclusion of

8 your testimony. Thank you very much for coming to testify. You are now

9 released. You may go, you may stand down, you are excused.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, as we previously had informed the

13 Trial Chamber's legal officer, we have no further witnesses for today.

14 The next witness who's scheduled to appear tomorrow is travelling today,

15 so we have nothing further for today.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 In that event, then, the Court will stand adjourned until tomorrow

18 at 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom II.

19 Court adjourned.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.55 a.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of

22 December, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.