Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 182

1 Sunday, 10 February 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody around the court.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

9 everyone in the courtroom.

10 This is case number IT-04-83-T, the Prosecutor versus Rasim

11 Delic.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Could we please have the

13 appearances for today starting with the Prosecution.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

15 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom.

16 Daryl Mundis and Aditya Menon for the Prosecution, assisted by

17 our case manager Alma Imamovic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

19 And for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours; good

21 morning to my colleagues from the Prosecution.

22 I am Vasvija Vidovic representing General Delic, with assistants

23 Lana Deljkic and Sabina Dzubur, and assisted by league assistant of OKO,

24 Ms. Nina Kisic.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

Page 183


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to you, Mr. Awad. I know you do know

4 this --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you very much. I know you do know this, but

7 it's still my duty to remind you that you are still bound by the

8 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the

9 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Thank you very

10 much.

11 Madam Vidovic. Oh, your colleague is on his feet.

12 Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Just very briefly. I

14 wanted to put on the record the document Exhibit 67, or the document

15 marked for identification as number 67, which was the list that was

16 discussed at length with the witness yesterday, our records from the

17 Prosecution side indicate that that document was previously marked for

18 identification but not admitted.

19 We've been -- because we're sitting here without access to all of

20 the databases in The Hague, the registrar was also unable to confirm if

21 that document had actually been admitted or simply marked. At this

22 point, the Prosecution position is that that document clearly should be

23 admitted into evidence if it has not previously been admitted into

24 evidence, and I wanted to put that on the record here before it gets lost

25 in the shuffle or we discover when we return to The Hague that it

Page 184

1 actually wasn't admitted.

2 So our -- I simply want to put on the record the Prosecution

3 position in light of -- especially in light of the extensive evidence

4 concerning that document. We believe that document should be admitted if

5 it hasn't been previously. And again, that was the document either

6 Exhibit 67 or the document marked for identification as number 67.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.

8 Madam Vidovic, do you have anything to say on that?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness

10 commented on that document. It's the list that we looked at yesterday.

11 I do not believe that that document can be admitted through this witness.

12 The witness actually said that the document does not reflect the actual

13 situation. He mentioned the people who are referred to there, said that

14 they didn't know each other, and if the document has been marked for

15 identification, I believe that it should remain as such. So there were

16 not enough elements for the document to be admitted into evidence.

17 The reason why I showed the document to the witness is that at

18 the -- some point I asked to look at the original of the document, and I

19 contested the authenticity of the document.

20 I apologise for not having in my records here that it's a MFI

21 document, because when you print the report, then that column indicating

22 the status of MFI documents is not actually shown in the report.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, I have a little bit of a problem

24 with your objection, and I'd like you to clarify me here. You say that

25 you asked the witness extensively about a document, and he said it

Page 185

1 doesn't show the correct position.

2 Is -- is there a criterion for admission for -- because, in fact,

3 many documents will be admitted because they've been properly identified,

4 but whether or not they are telling the correct position is a different

5 matter. We never know.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you're correct,

7 but the witness did not identify the document and that's the point. He

8 didn't identify it or accepted it as something that is -- he's familiar

9 with in any way.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a new point you are making.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis, it does seem as if we're in a bind

14 about this document.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I think the issues are clearly

16 articulated by the Defence as to why she's objecting, but certainly it

17 would be our view that this document has been testified about from the

18 witness. He's identified his own name on the document and a number of

19 other individuals whose names are on the document. I believe in the

20 total context of all the evidence heard the Trial Chamber will be in a

21 proper position to give the document whatever weight it might deem

22 appropriate, but certainly the factors that the Defence have identified

23 are not necessarily factors that would about against admitting the

24 document, and so our position would be that the document, in light of the

25 totality of the evidence the Chamber has heard and will hear in the

Page 186

1 future, that the document certainly is admissible at this stage of the

2 proceedings.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to ask the parties to -- to make

4 submissions on the point that I'm going to ask.

5 This is the last witness for the Prosecution, and let us assume

6 that this document is not admitted and the Defence doesn't call any

7 witness to whom this document could be admitted. What becomes the value

8 of the testimony that we have heard about this document?

9 I'd like to hear you on that one, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's very simple. It

11 will not be an exhibit in this trial.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: The question was what becomes of the testimony

14 that the witness has given in relation to this document?

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can clarify that.

16 What -- the testimony will stay in the transcript, because at this point

17 the Defence cannot know if the Prosecutor will or will not show that

18 document to any of the Defence witnesses. The Defence believes that this

19 witness is someone who can identify or not identify this document and can

20 speak -- about who can speak about the document, and that's the reason

21 the Defence used it. So we would like to keep the explanation that the

22 witness provided on the transcript, because at this point we cannot know

23 what will be happening in the future when we bring before you our some 20

24 witnesses.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

Page 187

1 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly the Prosecution would conquer with the

2 Defence on that limited point. Obviously any oral evidence that the

3 Chamber's had would remain on the record, on the transcripts, and would

4 certainly be matters for the Trial Chamber to consider.

5 Let me just add with respect to this document that we've had

6 numerous documents shown to witnesses during the course of this trial.

7 Witnesses have simply identified names on the document, and that alone

8 has served as a foundation for the admission of documents, and this

9 document is no different in that respect. And again, given the totality

10 of the evidence, the Chamber will certainly be in a position to give this

11 document whatever weight, if any, it deems necessary at the completion of

12 all of the evidence in this case.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The exhibit will still remain as -- as marked for

15 identification at this stage.

16 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ajman, you testified over these couple of

20 days about the relationship between the El Mujahedin Detachment and the

21 commands of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I would like to clarify

22 the relationship between the detachment and the higher commands of the

23 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 I will remind you that on the first day of your testimony, you

25 talked about a meeting with General Mehmed Alagic at the IKM of the

Page 188

1 Bosanska Krajina OG Lupac in the autumn of 1993. You said that

2 Wahiuddeen was present at the meeting.

3 What I would like to ask you to clarify is the following:

4 General Alagic did not issue any orders to Wahiuddeen at that time or

5 issue any assignments to him. Is this correct?

6 A. That's right. He did not issue any orders at that meeting.

7 Q. They were simply trying to agree how to continue the fighting?

8 A. Yes, that is correct, how to continue.

9 Q. Very well. Yesterday I reminded you that you gave a statement to

10 the Prosecutor in August and September 2005. Do you remember that you

11 said in the statement that Alagic -- that "We were not very much to

12 Alagic's liking"? Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would it be correct to say that the detachment did not receive

15 Alagic's orders, but that Asim Koricic, whom you considered as a man of

16 faith and a good Muslim, convinced the detachment command to go into

17 actions precisely because you were not accepting Alagic's orders? Would

18 this be a fair thing to say?

19 A. It would be fair to say that this was in one action that took

20 place in late 1993. This was an action at Zabrdzje near Kruscica, that

21 area towards Vitez. The detachment took part in it with the 7th Muslim

22 Brigade. Maybe the 17th Krajina Brigade was also there in that action

23 along that axis.

24 All the coordination went through Asim Koricic, because the

25 El Mujahedin Detachment command could trust him. We did not like to talk

Page 189

1 to Alagic all that much, because Alagic was a man who was a soldier with

2 strict military -- and a strict military attitude. As far as he was

3 concerned, we were undisciplined. And if you refuse one of his orders,

4 he considered you undisciplined, lacking in discipline. He would issue

5 orders as a commander, military orders, without discussion, without

6 debate, and so on. We wouldn't accept that ever. First of all, we would

7 discuss the terrain, the lay of the land, the options, and so on, not

8 just go out as a soldier and get killed as a soldier without anybody

9 asking about you. No. We would discuss first if it could or couldn't be

10 done. So we didn't receive his direct orders in the detachment.

11 Q. [No interpretation]

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. He was the commander of the OG Bosanska Krajina to which you were

14 resubordinated?

15 A. Yes, that's -- I think that's how it was.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't understand

17 which part of the testimony you didn't hear. What is it the last

18 question and answer that there was no interpretation?

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Your question was not translated.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It has, however, since been.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

22 repeat.

23 Q. Mr. Ajman, I asked if at the time when you described this event

24 Mr. Alagic, General Alagic, was the commander of the Operations Group

25 Bosanska Krajina to which you were resubordinated at that time. When I

Page 190

1 say "you," I'm thinking of the El Mujahedin Detachment.

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the statement, I would like the

5 witness to look at D788.

6 Q. Witness, can you please look at page 2, and you will see

7 paragraph 149 of your statement. It's not a long passage, and I'm going

8 to quote it.

9 In the conversation with the investigators, you said: "Until

10 the establishment of the detachment we were not under the command, and

11 even after the establishment of the detachment nobody could order

12 anything to the El Mujahedin except for the emir of the Mujahedin."

13 Do you remember saying that, Mr. Ajman?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Please, what you said is how it actually was, isn't it?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need for

18 excerpts from the statement to be entered into evidence so that we don't

19 encumber the record with an unnecessary number of documents, so I won't

20 ask for an exhibit number.

21 Q. Mr. Ajman, the Prosecutor yesterday asked you on a number of

22 occasions who set the priorities and the objectives of combat activities

23 for the El Mujahedin Detachment, and you answered the corps. Do you

24 remember?

25 A. I do.

Page 191

1 Q. I should like to suggest to you the following: The corps did

2 issue orders. However, whether those orders would be carried out or not

3 was always a matter decided within the detachment; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's how it was. I tried to explain clearly before any

5 kind of action there would be a discussion. We would be told that

6 such-and-such a terrain needed to be cleared, that this would be use if

7 full, et cetera. And when we agreed to do something, then such an order

8 would be issued to us in formal format. But if we didn't agree, then

9 such an action or an attack would not be carried out.

10 Q. Thank you. Excuse me, Witness. Could you give us a precise

11 example when you did the not launch an attack which had previously been

12 decided by the 3rd Corps?

13 A. I think I spoke about that. This happened in 1994, when the

14 El Mujahedin Detachment moved from the Sarici-Teslic front to the

15 Zavidovici-Vozuca front, when we were required to attack three features,

16 726, 702, and 706, and we explained that the attack could not be carried

17 out with success because of the nature of the terrain. And we didn't

18 want to carry out that attack, but they insisted on it.

19 Q. Yes, but yesterday, or perhaps the other day - I can no longer

20 remember - when you spoke about this, my understanding was that

21 nevertheless, there were negotiations, that you explained the reasons,

22 and those reasons were acknowledged. So I did not understand that there

23 was a confrontation over this particular decision and that you didn't

24 obey it. That was not my understanding.

25 A. I explained that the attack could not be carried out. However,

Page 192

1 they insisted, because other units were ready for it, and they were

2 waiting for us, and we didn't launch the attack. But in order to fulfil

3 some kind of a form so there wouldn't be any conflict between the corps

4 command and the detachment command and others, I call this a fake attack,

5 but it wasn't a real attack. When you fire from the existing lines, that

6 is not an attack because there was no movement towards enemy lines. We

7 were on the front line in trenches, and from the trenches we fired into

8 the air -- or, rather, towards the enemy. So this wasn't a proper attack

9 at all.

10 Q. Having decided to launch a fake attack or false attack, in fact

11 you didn't have the courage to directly oppose the decision.

12 A. We could have done that if we had wanted to, but our -- the

13 purpose of our stay there -- our coming there was not to clash with the

14 Bosnian army or the Bosniaks. We had come to assist these people. So as

15 to avoid a conflict, we did this something, fired a little bit, did some

16 shooting just so that they could say something had been done.

17 Q. Thank you. That is sufficient for me.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [No interpretation]

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Ajman, let me ask you, in connection with what you have just

21 said, a few brief questions.

22 In such a situation that you have just described regarding the

23 Ozren-Vozuca front, you were given a clear assignment to carry out an

24 attack; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 193

1 Q. However, you didn't launch the attack. You just fired into the

2 air; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you didn't carry out the order to attack, not in the way you

5 were ordered to do, nor at the time when you were order to attack. Am I

6 right, in very simple terms?

7 A. Yes. That attack was not carried out.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you didn't carry it out at the time that you

9 were ordered to do so?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I mean attack, I mean moving

11 towards enemy lines. We didn't move at all.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no. But -- but what you call a fake, did that

13 take place at the time that you were order to do so or not?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we had agreed that the attack

15 be placed -- that the attack take place in the morning, we did what I

16 have just described.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Awad, listen to my question. You have told us

18 that you faked an attack. You're being asked -- okay. You faked the

19 attack, and you did it at the time which was not the time you had ordered

20 been -- you had been ordered to do it.

21 I want to know whether this fake took place at the time other

22 than the time ordered, or because of what you've explained, you didn't

23 come here to clash, you came here to assist, you decided to go at the

24 time when you -- you wanted -- you were ordered to go but you decided to

25 fake it.

Page 194

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time agreed. Maybe not the

2 exact hour, but at the time agreed, yes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this not the attack that you talked about

4 either yesterday or the day before in which you said that there were no

5 leaves, there was no foliage, is that the same attack?

6 At that time --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, at that time there was no foliage. It was a

9 different season of the year. According to you, you wanted to do it in

10 the season when there is foliage.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did carry it out in the spring.

12 The 27th of May, 1995, that is when we did carry out that attack, but not

13 in November 1994.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't follow your evidence.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me try and

16 clarify.

17 Q. Mr. Awad, you did not implement the order of the 3rd Corps with

18 respect to the method nor with respect to the timing of that action, that

19 is, in November 1994; is that right? I'm talking about the operation at

20 the end of November 1994.

21 A. We didn't follow the instructions regarding the method of

22 carrying out the attack. The attack was intended against 726, 702, and

23 706, but actually there was an attack close to those features. Before

24 those features, not at the features themselves. Fire was opened from

25 existing lines, which cannot be identified with these features 702, 706,

Page 195

1 and 726.

2 Q. You also explained to us your participation in an operation in

3 the region of Pisana Jelika and Visoko Glava. Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you agree that the detachment received an order to take part

6 in that operation together with some other units of the army of Bosnia

7 and Herzegovina? Do you remember that?

8 A. Some other units, I don't know whether it was the 7th or some

9 others, that were supposed to attack together with the El Mujahedin

10 Detachment.

11 Q. However, a decision was made within the detachment that the

12 detachment act alone because it lacked confidence in the army units. Am

13 I right?

14 A. Yes, that's what happened.

15 Q. In other words, the order to the detachment to take part together

16 with the other army units was not observed; is that right?

17 A. Well, if you can put it that way.

18 Q. Thank you. Let me go back to what we were discussing a moment

19 ago. Am I right -- or, rather, let me put the following to you: The

20 detachment set its own conditions to a high level command for

21 participation in an operation; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. In other words, a high level command, whether it was the division

24 or the 3rd Corps, could not count on the detachment at a point in time

25 when it felt the detachment was necessary or when it ordered that it was

Page 196

1 necessary.

2 A. Until the conditions were fulfilled for an attack, we would never

3 carry out an attack.

4 Let me explain to make things quite clear. For instance, the

5 terrain at Sarici is very difficult. It is very difficult to draw out or

6 to carry out the wounded, and we insisted that a path had to be made, a

7 road, and we used large machines to make a road there so that the jeeps

8 could reach as close as possible to the area of attack for us to be able

9 to save the wounded. Other units did not ask for this, but we insisted.

10 We said there's -- we would not allow the operation to begin for our

11 wounded to die there, whereas we can save them and take them to hospital

12 if we have a road.

13 Q. Mr. Awad, please don't think that I'm trying to prove that your

14 reasons were not correct, the reasons for your actions, but I am simply

15 trying to convey a fact.

16 The command did give orders, but unlike other units, you did not

17 observe those orders. You simply decided on your own whether you would

18 accept an order or not. Would that be a fair summary of what you have

19 said?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the

23 witness now to be shown P789 [sic], please. D, D789. 89. It is part of

24 a statement.

25 Q. Please look at paragraph 154 and the last sentence in it, and

Page 197

1 I'll quote it for you. It's not long.

2 Judging by what you said to the investigator while talking to

3 him: "The command would pressure us in order to prepare the action as

4 soon as possible, but we would often meet their request somewhere in the

5 middle based on the situation in the field."

6 And what I wish to ask you now is the following: First of all,

7 did you say this to the Prosecutor, and is that right? Is that true?

8 A. As far as I can see, this is the statement made on the 13th of

9 September, 1995, and my signature is there.

10 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, 2005. Correction, interpreter's

11 correction.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what I said is correct.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So what you said is true.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Let me ask in connection with the decision-making within the

17 El Mujahedin Detachment. The detachment had an Shura; is that right?

18 A. Yes. It's a body that made decisions within the detachment.

19 Q. And you were present at Shura meetings, because you would

20 occasionally interpret to Bosniaks who participated in the work of the

21 Shura; is that right?

22 A. I was present only at the meetings attended by Bosniaks, because

23 the Shura was composed of Arabs and Bosniaks. Sometimes the Arabs would

24 meet alone. Then I wouldn't attend. But when interpretation was

25 necessary I would.

Page 198

1 Q. Would you agree with me that the Bosniaks were present at the

2 Shura were we will who were -- who headed the groups that went in -- that

3 launched attacks, that actually led the El Mujahedin attacks?

4 A. Usually there were men who would lead these groups into attacks.

5 And then, for instance, there would be a group of scouts who would carry

6 out reconnaissance. So there was -- there was a group that would carry

7 out the attack, but there were also scouts, and they were present at the

8 meeting.

9 Q. In other words, the Shura considered and discussed the plan of

10 the attack, whether the attack would be carried out or not and so on. Am

11 I correct?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. In addition, the Shura decided on all the major issues concerning

14 the life and work of the detachment. Is that true?

15 A. That's correct.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point could the witness

17 please be shown Exhibit 842. Exhibit 842, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: 43.41 it have 819, you don't -- you're not asking

19 for anything about it?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, Exhibit 842 is a

23 document from the El Mujahedin Detachment of 23rd October, 1993, and

24 entitled "Shura Decision." The document is brief.

25 Q. Mr. Awad, I'm sure you've had opportunity to read it now. It is

Page 199

1 about the meeting of the Shura on the 23rd of October, 1993, concerning

2 some event involving a disciplinary infraction by El Mujahedin named

3 Mujahid Sabahudin [phoen], where he was issued the last warning because

4 he had done certain things without the unit's emir, and he was punished

5 by being placed in detention.

6 What I would like to ask you is this, Mr. Awad: This is a

7 disciplinary decision issued by the Shura; is that correct? Is it

8 correct that the Shura considered and dealt with discipline in this

9 manner?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. What is the meaning of the phrase "he had done certain things

12 without the emir"?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Emmer [as interpreted] [phoen]. Without an

14 emmer. Interpreter's correction.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What it means is that he did this

16 without the permission of the emir. If somebody wanted to do something,

17 he would have to do it with the permission of the emir. Without it, he

18 would not be allowed to do it.

19 In this particular case, this man, Sabahudin, had done something

20 not within the detachment itself, within the camp or the command, but

21 some -- at some other place without the knowledge of the emir, and as a

22 consequence somebody complained of his behaviour, and then he was issued

23 this warning and punished with detention for 15 days. And it was also

24 stated that if anything similar happened in the future, he would not

25 remain in the Mujahedin.

Page 200

1 Q. With respect to this, I would like to ask you this: It is true,

2 isn't it, that the detachment had its internal orders which were not, in

3 fact, the orders issued by the army of the -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

4 A. The internal organisation of the El Mujahedin Detachment followed

5 the code. In other words, it had nothing to do with the BH army code.

6 We had our own code and certain rules that the members of the

7 El Mujahedin Detachment had to abide by.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, in that case what infraction was involved,

9 if you know, in this particular case, please?

10 A. As far as I can remember, I think this had something to do with

11 the school. I think there was an issue with a schoolteacher, that there

12 was some kind of conflict between them, and then she complained. Her

13 complaint reached the unit commander, the detachment commander. So -- in

14 other words, he went there and he said, "I'm a Mujahedin, and I can do

15 anything." In other words, he posed as if he were a representative of

16 the detachment and El Mujahedin. However, he did not have a

17 permission -- the emir's permission for this. So perhaps this was the

18 way he acted. He went there and said, "I'm a Mujahedin, so I can do

19 this," whatever that was. And this he was not allowed to do.

20 Whatever he did he could do in his own name, you but if he said

21 that he was doing it in the name of the Mujahedin, he could not -- he was

22 not allowed to do this.

23 This was not the only such case. There were several instances

24 where people were punished because of this kind of behaviour.

25 Q. You spoke of an internal code of behaviour for members of the

Page 201

1 detachment. Did you also have a code that applied to relations with the

2 3rd Corps and the 35th Division?

3 A. We did not have a written code. There was nothing written down.

4 These were roles that applicable. This was the conduct of the people who

5 were members of the detachment. And also the conduct towards the

6 3rd Corps or the 35th Division or any other unit, an operative group.

7 There was Operative Group 3 North or Bosnian Krajina and the like.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Where did you detain this gentleman? Did you

10 have a prison of your own?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date on this document is 1993,

12 which means that we didn't have any premises where somebody would be kept

13 in detention, but I think he was just held in a room. So what I'm trying

14 to say is that in 1993, we didn't have premises, detention premises. But

15 after this, when at the command in Pobrezje in Zenica, there was a room

16 which was known as room number 4, and this was used for detention.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point I wish to have the

18 witness shown document D796. D796, please.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction: D766.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Awad, I would like to address an issue, but before that let

22 me just say that this is a document of the security service of the

23 3rd Corps of 20th December 1995, and I would like to focus your attention

24 on the first section, the first section of this document, the first

25 paragraph, because I would like to put a question related to a fact that

Page 202

1 is stated there.

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 Q. This document is about a decision issued by the Shura regarding

4 the departure of the Mujahedin from Zenica. What I would like to ask you

5 is this: Is it true that the Shura considered -- discussed this issue of

6 the departure of the Mujahedin from Bosnia and that it was the Shura, in

7 fact, who made this decision? In other words, that it accepted something

8 that was proposed by the Bosnia and Herzegovina authorities.

9 A. Not only was it discussed -- not only was this issue discussed,

10 the departure of the Mujahedin, at the Shura, they also discussed whether

11 the detachment should be disbanded or not. And regardless of the signing

12 of the Dayton Accords, it was discussed whether the detachment should be

13 disbanded and -- or whether we should, regardless of this, just continue

14 with the fighting.

15 The people who were in the Shura, and it was not just the corps

16 Shura but a broader group of people, everyone was there, and they were

17 all in favour because of the results that had already been accomplished

18 by then in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In order to maintain the good

19 relationship with the Bosnian people and in order to avoid a conflict, an

20 internecine, a fight or war that we would have started, everyone decided

21 that the detachment should be disbanded, and they expressed their

22 readiness to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina. Had such a decision not been

23 made, it is certain that the detachment would not have been disbanded and

24 none of it would have happened.

25 Q. In other words, Mr. Awad, regardless of the fact this the

Page 203

1 decision that was signed at the -- in Dayton, at the Dayton Accord,

2 regarding the departure of foreigners from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

3 regardless of the fact that this was something that the -- that President

4 Izetbegovic personally insisted on, had the Shura not accepted that

5 decision, the detachment would not have been disbanded? Was my -- did I

6 understand you correctly?

7 A. That's exactly how it was. That's what happened. In other

8 words, had the people who had sat there and discussed this decided this

9 where everyone was saying, "There's no point in us remaining here,

10 because if we did we would create a conflict with the Bosniaks with whom

11 we fought side by side," we would have -- we would destroy everything

12 that we have accomplished so far, and the authority and respect that we

13 earned would have been destroyed. And our point -- our objective was not

14 to be there to spill the blood of the Muslims but to help them.

15 We did not the Chetniks or the Ustashi. We only went there

16 because they had attacked the Muslims, and we came to assist them with

17 their -- in their resistance.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

20 this document in evidence.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

22 please be given an exhibit number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 1136, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness -- Mr. Awad, sorry, I just want to be

Page 204

1 sure about what you ever just told us, because it seems to me that there

2 is a difference in the way the unit was set up and the way it was

3 disbanded.

4 You told us the other day that the detachment had been created

5 because the El Mujahid leadership had asked the 3rd Corps to set up a

6 detachment, and that request was accepted by the 3rd Corps. So the

7 3rd Corps set up the El Mujahid Detachment, and you told us that this was

8 done in order to regularise the status of the El Mujahid Detachment. So

9 this seems to me to be a willingness to subordinate the El Mujahid

10 Detachment to the army of the -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Now -- now you tell us that when then the army of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina wanted to disband the detachment, then suddenly you would

13 retain your right to maintain the detachment and continue to operate

14 irrespectively of what the Supreme Command or the 3rd Corps of the army

15 of Bosnia and Herzegovina would decide.

16 Now, these two positions seem to me to be in contradiction with

17 each other. So how do you explain the fact you started out by -- by

18 subordinating yourself to the army and then in the end not willing to be

19 disbanded upon the army's order?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The detachment would not have been

21 formed had not a decision been made when I said that the Shura -- had the

22 Shura not made the decision to ask for the establishment of the unit for

23 the reasons I mentioned before. I don't need to repeat them again. So

24 the Shura made the decision for us to join the army ranks.

25 Since there was a lot of distrust within the Mujahedin ranks in

Page 205

1 relation to the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina units, because on several

2 occasions -- I'm not going to say that it was treason, but they had been

3 left. They would carry out an attack, and the people who were supposed

4 to go with them forward, they would just leave them. The people were

5 thus exposed and got killed for nothing. They could have stayed alive,

6 but they lost their lives because the people did not support them. So

7 some considered that as treason, and there was a lot of talk about the

8 army's letting us down, others are letting us down.

9 So when you talk about that, not all the people have the same

10 courage. "I don't want to get killed. I want to stay alive. And if

11 there's somebody who can die for me, that's fine. Let the Arabs go, and

12 let them get killed, and I'm going to stay alive."

13 Again, yesterday I clarified that when those loose fighters came,

14 they all got together, the ones who were unaligned, unallied, they sat

15 down with the Shura and made this decision. So it was not a decision for

16 us to have to obey everything, but the decision was that those who are in

17 charge of the army, the army commanders, the unit chain of commanders,

18 were people that we did not have absolute confidence in, absolute trust,

19 because they could betray us. We go out into the field.

20 And I can convey an incident, an event to you, which explains why

21 those people were concerned. They didn't have trust in the commanders of

22 other units. We saw that even during reconnaissance. None of the

23 commanders or those who were important people in those units did not come

24 out into the field to see how their soldiers were carrying out the

25 surveillance, reconnaissance; was the situation really like that on the

Page 206

1 ground? And sometimes they would just say, "Report back. Everything is

2 good. We're ready," but they didn't actually do the reconnaissance.

3 They didn't know how to plan, for example, a pull-out if necessary. For

4 example, they could be firing, but they would not actually be advancing

5 in certain situations. So because of such circumstances, people had no

6 trust in the commander.

7 And let me tell you sincerely, we only trusted the man whose name

8 was Sakib Mahmuljin as the general of the army, as the commander. We

9 only trusted him, because he was a Muslim and somebody who was sent by

10 the president, the late Alija Izetbegovic, as his man to Zenica. He was

11 the commander. He was the only one we trusted, because he showed us

12 understanding, demonstrated understanding in conversation with us. But

13 we had no confidence or trust at all in the other commanders.

14 And this is why I'm telling you the detachment was formed just

15 for us to be there and to differentiate us from others so that nothing

16 would be ascribed to us.

17 Also, the dismantling of the detachment was something that the

18 people did not accept. It's the end of the war. We cannot force people

19 to wage war. I mean, if I came there to help, I cannot push these people

20 if they don't wish to go there.

21 So we respected the decision of the Bosnian people not to wage

22 any more war, and then we agreed to dismantle the unit. And by Allah had

23 the Shura decided then that the detachment would not be disbanded and

24 that the fighting should continue, nobody could have forced us to

25 dismantle the -- the detachment and to continue fighting. Because we

Page 207

1 could have entered Zepce in and minute because five people were killed

2 who were very important to us, Sheik Al Rahman, the late Abu Haris, also

3 the late man Abu Zijad [phoen] and some others who were key people in the

4 detachment.

5 So had the Shura not agreed that the detachment be dismantled,

6 nobody would have forced us or could have forced us to dismantle it.

7 The interest of our fighters, us fighters who were fighting

8 there, was to preserve the reputation of those people, to preserve the

9 blood of the Shaheeds. These people did not die in vain. They gave

10 their lives for Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this blood has to be

11 respected. To this very day the people who fought in the El Mujahedin

12 Detachment are ready to get killed and not to kill a single Muslim by

13 their own hand in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 So when we say the detachment was formed in a special way, we

15 mean that the Shura brought -- made a decision for it to be formed, and

16 the detachment was dismantled because the Shura had decided to dismantle

17 it, and this is the truth.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you would have continued the war if you had so

19 decided?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One hundred per cent, 100 per cent.

21 We had weaponry. We had an army. Over 1.500 soldiers were there at the

22 end in the detachment. We had a lot of weapons, materiel, equipment. We

23 could have fought at least three months without cease. But we decided,

24 out of interest -- in the interest of the Bosniak people, because this is

25 what the people had agreed to, they accepted this peace, and we accepted

Page 208

1 that fighting should be stopped and that the detachment should be

2 dismantled, although the people were in danger when leaving Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina. They even accepted that risk to get killed, to be detained.

4 They accepted that risk, and they left Bosnia and Herzegovina only to --

5 as a favour to these people here.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Awad, thank you for this exhaustive explanation, and I would

8 just like to put one question to you about what you have just said.

9 I heard that you said the Shura made a decision for the

10 El Mujahedin Detachment to join the army, but the decision was not made

11 to obey the army. Did I understand you correctly?

12 A. That is how I explained it. People did not trust -- I have to

13 explain again why this was so. People did not trust the Armija

14 commanders.

15 I didn't tell you about some events, and if you wish, I can also

16 tell you that.

17 Q. Thank you. Thank you. What you're saying is very interesting,

18 but there are questions that I still need to put to you, so please -- and

19 our time is limited.

20 Talking yesterday and just now, you, in response to the

21 Prosecutor's questions, you mentioned Sheik Anwar Shaaban. I would now

22 like you to look at a document. It's Exhibit 844.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, it's an article

24 published in the Ljiljan magazine on the 15th of November, 1995.

25 Q. And first all, can you see in front of you the photograph of a

Page 209

1 person? It's -- is this the late Sheik Enver Shaaban?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You would say that this is an interview with Sheik Shaaban. I

4 would like you to turn to page 2.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is also page 2

6 of the English version, and you can see this on your monitors.

7 Q. I would like you, please, Witness, to look at the text just below

8 the name of the journalist. It says: "Interview conducted by Nedzad

9 Latic," and then you see the text below where Sheik Enver is introducing

10 himself.

11 He says: "I graduated from the faculty of technical sciences in

12 Cairo, Department for Marine Studies. After that I attended the sharia

13 courses at various faculties. I devoted myself more to the study of the

14 sharia, whether it was in Egypt or abroad."

15 Please, what it says here in this text, is this what you yourself

16 knew about Sheik Enver Shaaban, that he was a very educated person?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. Please, Mr. Awad, would you accept as correct that that man --

19 such a man, Enver Shaaban, didn't actually know the grammar of the Arabic

20 language all that well?

21 A. Whoever studies Islamic sciences, since that is in Arabic, he had

22 to know grammar. When he quoted or was studying, learning something, or

23 reading a text from that field, he has to use the Arab grammar correctly.

24 He cannot speak slang or street language.

25 Q. Thank you. That is sufficient. I would now like to ask you

Page 210

1 something about the Sheik.

2 Sheik Shaaban came to Bosnia in late 1994; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that Abu Mali, whom you mentioned several

5 times in your testimony, was actually someone who the Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina army considered as the commander of the El Mujahedin

7 Detachment? Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct. And he had the rank of captain 1st class,

9 or senior captain.

10 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now look at D79 --

12 [Microphone not activated]. And you can put this document away.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: D7 what?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] D790. 790, Your Honours.

15 Q. Mr. Awad, this again is a part of your statement.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness page

17 2, paragraphs 190, 191, and 192. 193 also. So can we also scroll the

18 English text down so that the Judges can look at 190, 191, and 192,

19 please, on the screen.

20 Your Honours, the problem is that the English version actually is

21 on two pages. So perhaps we can look at paragraph 190 first from this

22 previous page on the screen.

23 Very well. Maybe it can be arranged in that way, overlapped

24 somehow. Very well. Can we perhaps fit it all on the screen, but Their

25 Honours probably have it in front of them. All right. Maybe we can fold

Page 211

1 the page. Thank you very much. Very well. Thank you very much.

2 Q. Mr. Awad, I am sure that you've already read this, this part of

3 the statement.

4 First of all, do you remember that you told the Prosecutor what

5 is said in paragraphs 190, 191, and 192? You -- is it correct, first of

6 all, that you told the Prosecutor what it says here?

7 A. Yes. More than that.

8 Q. Very well. You described that after the Sheik arrived, who knew

9 the Shariat very well, the Arab members of the detachment chose him as

10 the emir, as the man in charge, the leader. Is this correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Now, please, would you agree with me that the Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina army and their commands did not -- or were not asked or

14 consulted in any way about the election of Sheik Enver as the main leader

15 of the El Mujahedin Detachment?

16 A. Yes, that is correct. There was no need to ask anyone either.

17 Q. So the command of the Bosnia and Herzegovina army did not issue

18 any orders in terms of the Sheik becoming the emir of the detachment?

19 A. Yes, that is true. Absolutely.

20 Q. You said that the Sheik, as the member of the Egyptian Al Jama

21 Al-Islamiyah, was not accepted by the Saudis. Is that correct?

22 A. No, that is not so. I said -- let me please explain. When

23 there -- it was time to elect the person, Sheik -- the Sheik -- to elect

24 the Sheik, the people who were in the detachment from Saudi Arabia did

25 not accept him for this post because they believed that the late Sheik

Page 212

1 was a member of the Al Jama Al-Islamiyah, and even -- they even thought

2 that about the other Egyptians. However, they were not members of that

3 particular organisation, so they did not accept our choice for Sheik

4 Enver Shaaban to be the number-one man or the emir of the El Mujahedin

5 Detachment.

6 Q. Thank you. I apologise. Of I didn't understand all that well,

7 actually, what was written here.

8 I would like to ask you the following: It's correct, isn't it,

9 that precisely because of this matter not -- the Sheik not being accepted

10 by the Saudis as the leader, Abu Mali was actually formally elected as

11 the leader?

12 A. Yes, that is correct, because before Sheik Enver arrived, Dr. Abu

13 Haris was the emir of the El Mujahedin Detachment. But there were

14 misunderstandings between Dr. Abu Haris and certain people in the

15 detachment. They wanted to replace him. With the arrival of Sheik Enver

16 presented this opportunity in the sense that there was a more adequate

17 person than him, because usually the person who leads something that is a

18 religious unit, a religious gathering, the person who knows the Islamic

19 or the religious sciences in the best way is the person that actually

20 leads the group. So this was actually an opportunity for them to replace

21 him. Because of this he couldn't oppose it. There was no ground for

22 that, and there were other people who could take the lead. That's when

23 Sheik Enver Shaaban was elected. But when this happened, when the Saudis

24 did not agree to this, then Abu Haris would no longer accept to be the

25 emir again since this happened. So the solution was found to have Abu

Page 213

1 Mali as the emir of the El Mujahedin Detachment, but Sheik Enver was

2 still the number-one man. This thing stayed how it was since he was the

3 person who knew the sharia the best.

4 Q. Thank you. In other words, Abu Mali was the emir on paper,

5 whereas the real emir of the detachment was Sheik Enver Shaaban; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes, that -- it was like that. However, the people in the

8 detachment, or most of the people, were not aware of this. Only a part

9 of the Shura who had decided on the replacement, they knew that Sheik

10 Enver was the number-one person, the real emir, and that Abu Mali was the

11 emir in form. So as to avoid any misunderstandings or disagreements

12 within the detachment, Abu Mali was the emir for them. They didn't know

13 about this other decision.

14 Q. I would suggest the following, and I would ask for you to comment

15 on it: It is true, is it not, that Abu Mali didn't do anything without

16 prior consultation with Sheik Enver?

17 A. Absolutely so.

18 Q. In other words, the Sheik was the real authority in the

19 detachment.

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. And Sheik Enver was a missionary, a dija [phoen]. He was not a

22 fighter, was he?

23 A. Yes. He focused more on his missionary work than other matters.

24 Q. Let me ask you something else about Sheik Enver. In your

25 testimony yesterday, you mentioned two meetings of which you said were

Page 214

1 attended by Sheik Enver and President Izetbegovic. Do you remember

2 mentioning that?

3 A. Yes, I remember.

4 Q. Do you remember that you had a preparatory meeting with the

5 Prosecutor as proofing for your testimony here on the 18th of December,

6 2007? Do you remember? Do you remember that? Did I give the right

7 date?

8 A. No, it wasn't the 18th of December. There were three days. I

9 think the 11th, 12th, and 13th of December.

10 Q. Possibly you may be right, but I have in mind a letter from the

11 Prosecutor informing the Defence, as he is obliged to do, about certain

12 things from that interview, and what I wish to ask you is the following:

13 You said at the time, among other things, that Sheik Enver discussed with

14 President Izetbegovic problems having to do, among other things, the

15 problem of Bosnian soldiers who had moved from other units to the

16 El Mujahedin Detachment. Do you remember discussing this with the

17 Prosecutor?

18 A. Yes. I said that at this meeting there was a discussion with the

19 president to solve the problem of the transfer of members of other units

20 of the BH army to the El Mujahedin Detachment, because there were many

21 fighters who wanted to transfer to the detachment, but their commands,

22 their unit commands, would not approve this transfer. They considered

23 them deserters and sent the military police to detain them. And at this

24 meeting with the late president there was a discussion that this be

25 allowed, and he promised that it would be permitted.

Page 215

1 Q. Just a moment, please. Could you please speak a little more

2 slowly in the interest of the transcript.

3 I wish to ask you now whether you remember when this meeting we

4 are discussing took place, roughly.

5 A. It was after the second operation in Zavidovici, which means

6 after the 21st of July, 1995. After the second operation.

7 Q. Thank you. So this problem of the transfer of local fighters

8 which the army considered to be deserters was not resolved until this

9 meeting, otherwise it would not have been discussed with President

10 Izetbegovic; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So when talking about this meeting, General Rasim Delic was not

13 present at that meeting, was he?

14 A. At the meeting with the president in Zavidovici in the building

15 of the 35th Division headquarters, army General Rasim Delic was not

16 present.

17 Q. You were in a position to interpret the Sheik's conversations; is

18 that right?

19 A. Not a lot but some, yes.

20 Q. On the basis of your own knowledge, did Sheik Enver ever get in

21 touch with Rasim Delic or the Supreme Command Staff regarding the

22 resolution of these problems or any problems regarding the El Mujahedin

23 Detachment?

24 A. Never, except at that meeting, but never before.

25 Q. You mean the meeting that Izetbegovic attended. So as to avoid

Page 216

1 any confusion, Mr. Awad, when I say "staff," mean the General Staff and

2 General Delic.

3 According to the best of your knowledge, did Sheik Enver ever

4 contact the General Staff and General Delic in connection with this

5 problem?

6 A. Absolutely not, never.

7 Q. So he did contact Izetbegovic. Is my understanding correct?

8 Asking him to deal with the problem.

9 A. Yes, at that meeting.

10 Q. Why did he discuss this with Izetbegovic?

11 A. The corps command would not allow the transfer of other members

12 of the BH army to the El Mujahedin Detachment, and we asked to have a

13 meeting with the president, because we trust President Alija Izetbegovic.

14 We also trusted General Sakib Mahmuljin.

15 In view of the fact that the commander of the 3rd Corps,

16 General Sakib Mahmuljin, did not accept our request, then we sought

17 somebody we trusted, and that is the late President Alija Izetbegovic in

18 person.

19 Q. Let me ask you another very simple question. Sheik Enver Shaaban

20 was in no sense subordinated to General Mahmuljin, was he?

21 A. No, he wasn't.

22 Q. He wasn't; is that right?

23 A. No, he wasn't subordinated.

24 Q. Thank you. One more question. Abu Mali, even though he was

25 formally subordinated to the 3rd Corps, did not accept Mahmuljin's orders

Page 217

1 without the approval of Sheik Enver Shaaban. Am I right?

2 A. You are.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this would be

5 a good moment to break.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Lest I forget, Mr. Awad, can

7 I just check something? Is Sheik -- sorry, Sheik Enver Shaaban and Sheik

8 Anwar Shaaban one and the same person, or are these two different people?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is one and the same person. In

10 Arabic you say "Anwar," and the Bosnians say "Enver" for the same name.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 We'll take break and come back at 11.00. Court adjourned.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Ajman -- Awad. Mr. Awad, may we proceed? We were

17 discussing, and you mentioned several times the name of General Sakib

18 Mahmuljin. You said that you trusted him.

19 My question is as follows: When you met him for the first time,

20 who introduced him to you and how? Do you understand my question?

21 A. Yes, I do. I met him -- or we met him for the first time in

22 Zenica, at the barracks at Bilmiste. He was introduced by Ahmed

23 Halilovic, saying that this person, Sakib Mahmuljin, had come from

24 Sarajevo and that he was coming on behalf of President Alija Izetbegovic.

25 Q. In the talks that you interpreted, for instance between

Page 218

1 General Mahmuljin and other individuals, was any authorisation given by

2 General Rasim Delic to Mahmuljin ever mentioned, or was he introduced in

3 the way you have just described?

4 A. There was never any mention of Rasim Delic giving any

5 authorisation to him. At that meeting, it was stated that this person,

6 Sakib Mahmuljin, had been sent by President Alija Izetbegovic.

7 Q. Very well. I should now like to move on to another topic.

8 With respect to General Mahmuljin, would it be fair to say that

9 your contacts were occasional? They were not permanent or regular?

10 A. Yes. When I say that there were contacts or meetings, it doesn't

11 mean that we met every day. It would occur as necessary, during the

12 operations or something like that. It wasn't on a daily basis. I even

13 remember a period when there were no contacts with him for a period of up

14 to three or four months.

15 Q. Thank you. In your testimony you mentioned the local commanders

16 several times in whose areas of responsibility you were acting. For

17 instance, General Alagic, Jusuf Musinbegovic [as interpreted]. And my

18 question to you is: These local commanders in whose areas of

19 responsibility you were acting actually wanted to place the detachment

20 under their command; is that right?

21 A. Yes, right.

22 Q. However, you would not accept that. The El Mujahedin Detachment

23 would not agree to that.

24 A. We would be formally resubordinated to them, but none of these

25 commanders could give us direct orders. That did not happen.

Page 219

1 Q. Let us clear that up. When you say that "we were formally

2 resubordinated but no one could give us any orders," which means that

3 there was an order. There was a paper, a piece of paper. However, the

4 detachment did not accept orders from them. Is that fair?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could we have a look at an order, P1506. P1506.

7 For the record, Witness, I wish to say that this is an order from

8 the 3rd Corps dated the 28th of August, 1993, whereby the El Mujahedin

9 Detachment, with its entire personnel and materiel is being

10 resubordinated to the 306th Brigade. Have you read the document?

11 A. I have.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the English version be

13 controlled down -- or up so that Their Honours can see.

14 Q. Do you agree with me if I say that at the bottom it says, in

15 handwriting, "Not carried out"? Witness, do you agree that it says here

16 that the entire personnel and technical equipment and materiel shall be

17 resubordinated to the 306th Brigade?

18 My question is: It is true, is it not, that you never in -- were

19 in actual fact resubordinated to that brigade, nor did you is accept

20 their command throughout your stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Did you ever accept the command of the 330th Brigade and their

23 commander as your commander?

24 A. Never in our life.

25 Q. Did you ever accept Mr. Jusuf Hasimbegovic [as interpreted] as

Page 220

1 your commander?

2 A. Never.

3 Q. Did you ever throughout the fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina

4 accept the commander of the 7th Brigade as your own commander?

5 A. Never.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this exhibit

8 into evidence. Could it be assigned a number, please?

9 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like to know whether the

10 witness is able to tell us who signed the note that the order was carried

11 out. The signature on the left of the order that we can see, whose is

12 it? Do you recognise this signature, please?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I've never seen it.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

16 please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 1137, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be

21 shown Exhibit 439.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, what you said was not translated.

23 Could you please repeat yourself.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I asked that the witness be shown

25 Exhibit 439, please. E439.

Page 221

1 For the record, Your Honours, to say that this is the document,

2 this is a document from El Mujahedin Detachment, dated 15 May 1995,

3 entitled "Plan of attack."

4 Q. Witness, I would like you to take a look at this document and ask

5 some questions in relation to it. You see that the heading says that

6 this is from the El Mujahedin Detachment. It says there the commander

7 Abu Al Mali.

8 My question would be this: Is it -- it would be correct to say

9 that this plan is in fact the only plan that the detachment forwarded to

10 the BH army. In other words, the detachment did not have a habit of

11 sending its plans to commands of the BH army. Am I correct in saying

12 this?

13 A. Yes, that's correct. It was not habitual for the detachment to

14 forward its plans of attacks, from which side the attack would be coming

15 and in what manner it would be carried out. These types of plans were

16 never forwarded. And I think that this document was forwarded, but

17 attack was not carried out, the attack that wasn't carried out in 1994,

18 as a result of which there was great distrust. So in order for us to

19 make them believe us that we are serious in our intent and that we do

20 intend to realise this attack, we sent this plan of attack so that the

21 commander of the 35th Division could be assured that we -- we were doing

22 something, but it wasn't realised, and we -- we didn't know. We couldn't

23 trust such a commander, because we wouldn't know what he would do or what

24 he would say.

25 Q. Thank you. The detachment commander did not forward written

Page 222

1 reports to the corps or division commands. Am I correct?

2 A. You're right.

3 Q. It did not send its reports on its personnel, the -- the strength

4 of its unit, for instance, or manpower numbers?

5 A. As for the unit strength, whenever new people came we would

6 change our lists, but this did not happen very often. It didn't happen.

7 It wasn't a daily occurrence. This would happen perhaps once in a month

8 when new people would come and some people would leave. This would be

9 the time where we would enter these changes on the lists.

10 Q. With respect to that, I would like to ask you this: You knew

11 that there was a decision issued by General Mahmuljin to ban further

12 admittance of new members into the detachment towards the end of 1994; is

13 that correct? Did you know of this?

14 A. I cannot recall, but I know that there was something to do with

15 replenishment or changes in the numbers and levels of the units.

16 Q. Yes, but it is true, isn't it, that new members were being

17 admitted throughout the period until -- up to the time when the

18 detachment was actually disbanded; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. I have another question. You did not send reports on materiel

21 and technical equipment that you had at your disposal. In other words,

22 what kind of ammunition you had at your disposal or how many weapons. Am

23 I correct?

24 A. Yes, you are correct. We never sent such reports.

25 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move on to another topic.

Page 223

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, if you don't mind, I just have a

2 little question on this topic.

3 Can I be clear I understand what you are saying, sir. You say

4 this plan of attack was never carried out. In a very short answer, was

5 it ever carried out?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in this manner. Not in the

7 manner that it's -- that is stated here.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did I understand you to be saying that this was

9 yet another fake?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, no, no. The attack was

11 carried out, but not in the manner described in this document, because we

12 had assault groups. They had their own plans of attack, the number of

13 people that would participate, along which axis and so on. We did not --

14 we -- we would say which features would be attacked, but we never stated

15 the manner in which they would be carried out.

16 In other words, the attack was not carried out according to this

17 plan but according to how we wanted to carry it out. And it was carried

18 out, and successfully too.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me put my question slightly differently. What

20 then was the purpose of submitting this particular plan?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as I said a little earlier,

22 because there was such a long lapse of time there was no trust, no

23 confidence.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: A long lapse of time between what?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between November 1994 and 27 May

Page 224

1 1995. So in this period of time, this is a rather long period of time,

2 nothing happened. Nothing was happening. And because the attack in

3 November was not carried out, the fake attack that I mentioned earlier,

4 there was a sense of distrust.

5 If you recall what I said yesterday, Commander Fadil Hasanagic,

6 when we had the meeting -- okay?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Carry on.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Commander Fadil Hasanagic, the

9 commander of the 35th Division, at a briefing where he said that this

10 attack was not successful, the general was really angry. He was grinding

11 his teeth, and he said, "You are going to stay here with me. You are not

12 going to leave this territory. Don't even think of it. You're staying

13 here." And this is the reason why this sense of distrust creeped in, so

14 that then we wanted to show that we were serious in our intentions to

15 carry out the attack, and in order to accomplish that we provided this

16 plan to show them that something was being done, and that was the only

17 purpose of it. In actual fact, the attack was carried out in our own

18 manner. We decided how we would reach the trenches, what weapons we were

19 going to use, and so on and so forth.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Awad, I would like to ask you something completely different

24 now. Yesterday, in answer to my questions whether the lists that were

25 compiled within the detachment and how they were compiled, you explained

Page 225

1 that. You were explaining a particular list, if you recall, and now I

2 would like to put some questions in respect of that.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

4 Exhibit 663. 663.

5 For the record, this is a document from the 3rd Corps command,

6 dated 7 May 1995, entitled "List," and it is forwarded to the military

7 security service.

8 Q. Witness, could you please see page 4 of this document and the

9 name under number 141, 141.

10 A. Very well.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for Your Honours, I would like

12 to say that this is document that was filed and entered into evidence.

13 Apparently there is no translation of this page, so I would request that

14 the Bosnian version be placed on the ELMO. This is -- to be more

15 precise, this was translated but only the first page, not the list

16 itself.

17 But before we do this, I would just like to see again the first

18 page so that we can see what the headings of -- so that we can -- so that

19 the witness can see the headings of the columns.

20 Q. Witness, do you agree that the first come up says, "Last and

21 first name," and then "Date of birth," followed by "Place and

22 municipality of birth," and that there is also a column headed "In the

23 army since," followed by "Registered since"? Please bear this in mind

24 while I refer you back to what we were looking at earlier, which is page

25 4, number 141, where his name is being mentioned. Thank you.

Page 226

1 Mr. Awad, the name under number 141, would you agree, should be

2 your name?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Is the date correct, your date of birth?

5 A. Quite.

6 Q. Do you recall -- if you recall, the next column where it says 10

7 September 1992, was -- is supposed to be the column headed "In the army

8 since." Do you recall?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, you can see that there; right? You see that the date 10

11 September 1992 is under the heading "In the army since."

12 During your testimony in the past couple of days, you actually

13 said that you arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the end of 1992; is

14 that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Do you agree with me then that this date appearing here, 10

17 September 1992, as the date of your joining the army of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina is incorrect?

19 A. That's correct. And that is why I am having all the problems I'm

20 having with my citizenship now, because it is claimed that I lied to the

21 commission, that I was in the army since this date, whereas I provided

22 different data.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with me, then, that the information

24 contained in this list is not trustworthy, that the date when you joined

25 the army is incorrect, at least in your case?

Page 227

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please remove

4 this document.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might just interrupt you at this stage,

6 Madam Vidovic. We have just received a transcript of the proceedings of

7 the 11th of July, 2007, on which day document PT01462 was admitted into

8 evidence as Exhibit 67. So the record can show that that document has

9 been admitted as Exhibit 67.

10 Thank you very much. You may proceed.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 I would like to move to another document. Could the witness

13 please look at Exhibit 97.

14 For the transcript, it's a list of members of the El Mujahedin

15 Detachment of the 26th of February, 1996.

16 I would like the witness to look at page 6 of the document.

17 Before that, before we remove this document, can we please look at 3,

18 page 3, so at that we could look at the column headings. Can we just

19 look at page 3.

20 Your Honours, in the English version this is on page 2 that gives

21 the headings of the columns.

22 Q. Witness, could you please look at the headings. Would you agree

23 that the first one says "Last name, first name," then "Identification

24 number," then "In records since," "Out of unit." "In the records since,"

25 and then after that there is a column for "Out of unit." Then there is

Page 228

1 the information about the municipality of birth, attendance, and see on.

2 Please, can you just remember these columns. .

3 I would now like you to look at page 6 of the document. Page 6

4 of the document. Can you please look at the name under number 251.

5 251. Can you please look is that. And here you have "Ajman

6 Awad," and then there are some numbers where the identification number

7 is. Oh, all right. This is very good. Thank you. Then you have "In

8 records since," then you have "Out of the unit."

9 Do you see this information? It says here that you were in the

10 records of the detachment as of the 1st of May, 1993.

11 Yesterday, you told us that you were a member of the army of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina as of the 13th of August, 1995. 1993. I

13 apologise. 1993.

14 Would you agree with me that this information is not accurate?

15 A. I said yesterday that from the moment that the El Mujahedin

16 Detachment was formed, which was part of the army of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina, then I was a member of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina as

18 of the 13th of August, 1993.

19 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to ask you something else about

20 this, please. Can you look at the column where the identification number

21 is and the number that is supposed to be your identification number.

22 Please look at that number, the identification number column, and look

23 the your number, and here it says 0104964. Do you see that?

24 A. That is the date of birth.

25 Q. Would you agree then that that is your date of birth? It is

Page 229

1 actually not or neither can it be your identification number? Do you

2 agree?

3 A. It's the date of my birth, not my identification number.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you agree also that for it to be your date of

5 birth there must be a 1 between the 4 and the 9? Just look at the

6 number.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree. For it to be complete it

8 should be the 1st of April, 1964.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in this number the 1 of 19 is missing. I

10 guess the point Madam Vidovic is making.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Your Honours, what I'm

13 trying to clarify here is this:

14 Q. However it is, Mr. Ajman, this is not your ID number.

15 A. That's right. It is not, absolutely not.

16 Q. Do you agree with me that the data that refer to you in this list

17 is not accurate?

18 A. The only correct thing is the first and the last name.

19 Q. Thank you. We can put this document away now.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Is it possible that

21 an identification number was given corresponding to the date of birth of

22 a member of the army, especially if they were foreigners?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how they made up these

24 numbers, how the numbers were formed. Most probably they took the

25 Bosnian number, the way the Bosnians have identification numbers.

Page 230

1 In our countries we don't have these ID numbers. Maybe this is a

2 new thing. Maybe they took the first part of that, and since there is no

3 second part of the ID number, maybe they just added that. I mean this is

4 just my take on it. Perhaps it was done in a different way.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you don't know whether that

6 was your ID number or not, or are you aware of another identification

7 number?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have any other number.

9 First name, last name, that's it. All that is here is all that there is.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: In relation to what I said, and in fairness to

12 you, Mr. Awad, I just want to comment that I note that the numbers on

13 that column, which look like they could be date of birth, all miss the 1

14 of the 9 -- of the 1900 figure. All of them. Thank you.

15 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Vidovic, please, I have not understood the

17 purpose of bringing this document. What -- what is it that you want to

18 show, that --

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to show

20 that -- this is a document tendered by the Prosecutor, and I would like

21 to show that the list does not contain reliable data, not as far as -- it

22 doesn't contain reliable data and that it is not -- that it cannot be

23 used as an exhibit or as evidence.

24 If your permit me, I am going to clarify this very clearly with

25 the witness.

Page 231

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, please do so, but -- but then in doing so, I

2 ask you then to -- to explain to us the importance of -- of the

3 information given in these documents. Even if they are unreliable, then

4 what? What does that show? I mean, I accept your proposition that there

5 are probably mistakes in these documents, but nevertheless, the witness

6 is being listed as being a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment, and I

7 guess that's all we need to know.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that this is

9 information -- well, this is an exhibit tendered by the Prosecutor, and I

10 believe that perhaps the name of the witness is what is relevant for the

11 Court at this time. However, the Defence -- I have -- the Defence has

12 its own view of the facts, and at this point in time it would be very

13 complicated and we would lose a lot of time for me to go into that

14 explanation, but I believe that the fact is very relevant -- or I believe

15 it is very relevant to prove the fact that these lists are unreliable

16 regardless of the fact that they contain the name of the witness, and I

17 have several reasons for doing that.

18 Your Honours, would you allow me to carry on?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see Judge Harhoff nods his head in agreement, so

20 you may carry on now.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I

22 cannot see because of the screen that is in front of Judge Harhoff, so I

23 cannot actually see him.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's correct, and that's why I was -- I talked,

25 and it is also necessary to place it on the record that your question is

Page 232

1 answered.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, from what I understood, you were given the citizenship

4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina at one point in time. Is this correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You got it. Please, it's true, isn't it, that you were given a

7 personal ID card, an ID document, in other words. Is this correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Please, do you remember that this document contained something

10 that is an ID number?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. You did have this personal identification number. Do you

13 remember?

14 A. Yes. 0104964, 9600.

15 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't catch all the numbers, I'm afraid. I

16 apologise.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpret said she didn't catch all the

18 numbers that Mr. Awad had mentioned. 0104964 --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 010496190089.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: When did you get that identity document?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1995. I -- maybe April. I

22 don't remember exactly.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: According to the law of '93 -- [Interpretation]

24 according to the law -- law -- law of '93 --

25 THE WITNESS: Twenty-three.

Page 233

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Twenty-three. So that was before the 26th of

2 February, 19 -- oh, it is after 1996. Okay.

3 You may proceed. Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. The purpose of my question, Mr. Awad, was that in that list we do

6 not see this personal ID number that you had already in 1995.

7 A. [Interpretation] That's right.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So we can remove this document

9 unless Your Honours have additional questions.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document may be removed.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could now Witness look at P2732,

12 P2732.

13 Q. Witness, for the record I wish to say that this is a document of

14 the 3rd Corps command, dated the 27th of October, 1995, and entitled

15 "Instruction on the engagement and records to be kept of foreign citizens

16 in the BH army."

17 Would you please read points 3 and 4 of this document.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The document stipulates that foreign citizens who are in the

20 units from before, in the units of the BH army, as the document says,

21 shall make a statement that they joined the army units voluntarily.

22 It is true, isn't it, that members of the detachment did not make

23 such statements about voluntarily joining the army up until the

24 detachment was demobilised?

25 A. Not only did they not give such statements, they didn't wish to

Page 234

1 make such statements. They refused.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document be

4 given an exhibit number, and I should like to tender it into evidence.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

6 please be given an exhibit number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 1138, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, why did you not wish to state

10 publicly that you had entered the ABiH voluntarily?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Foreign volunteers felt that there

12 was no need for any kind of documents, for any kind of acknowledgements

13 or anything like that. They didn't wish to have any kind of official

14 paper which would show that they had been fighters in the ABiH. They

15 didn't wish to have any kind of document. They felt that this was

16 unimportant for them and that it would detract from the value of their

17 struggle. If I have come, I have come voluntarily, but I don't have to

18 prove to anyone that I did so. I don't have to sign a paper saying that,

19 so that there was no need. They considered that absolutely unimportant

20 and unnecessary, and they didn't wish to make such statements.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: But their voluntary participation in the army of

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina was, nevertheless, the basis for applying for

23 Bosnian citizenship. So why would anyone be reluctant to say that, "We

24 have arrived here voluntarily and joined the fight," and on that basis

25 apply for citizenship?

Page 235

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you that maybe 20 or 25

2 men, certainly not more than 30, acquired citizenship in this way that

3 you have just described. He was given a certificate saying that he was a

4 member of the BH army, and he submitted that document to the police, and

5 they received citizenship. They were very few in number. And these

6 people did provide their proper data in the list. Those who wished to,

7 they did provide their proper data. Others did not, so they didn't.

8 The other members did not apply for citizenship, nor did they

9 need it. They didn't feel obliged to make any kind of statements,

10 because they had absolutely no need for it.

11 What is more, I think that Abu Mali or Sheik Anwar Shaaban, if he

12 had told these people that they had to make such statements, they would

13 have been told off, because they felt this to be an insult. "Why do I

14 have to prove to anyone that I am a volunteer?"

15 Do you understand?

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you file a declaration of voluntary admission

17 to the ABiH.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.

19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sir, if you refuse to declare

20 that you participated in the army on a voluntary basis, in that case were

21 you recruited?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Could you please explain to me?

24 Maybe I'm a woman and I know very little about military matters I need a

25 little more explanation, so could you explain that to me, please.

Page 236

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as recruitment or

2 mobilisation is concerned, we were not citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so

3 we could not come under the law of mobilisation. If we didn't -- if we

4 had been members and didn't join, then we would be considered deserters,

5 but our people came on a voluntary basis, without anybody's command or

6 organisation.

7 When they joined the El Mujahedin Detachment, they didn't need to

8 prove that they were members. They didn't need any kind of document or

9 any paperwork that they might use later on in life. It was sufficient

10 for them to have come. For them that was sufficient proof that they are

11 volunteers.

12 Have you understood me? Why do I have to prove that I'm a

13 volunteer? Maybe it's difficult for you to understand this, but that is

14 how it is.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you didn't make this declaration, how did you

16 get your citizenship under law 23?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I provided my data, and I did

18 receive a certificate saying that I was a member of the army of Bosnia

19 and Herzegovina, and this certificate was something that I received

20 before the date of this document, because I applied in March or February,

21 I think.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Talking about citizenship, could I

23 ask the technicians to play a video clip, VD18, of the Defence.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 237

1 Q. Mr. Awad, let me ask you, this person that you saw, a

2 representative of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, said that a

3 certain number of foreign citizens had forged documents on their

4 participation in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, whereas in fact they

5 had not participated and on that basis they had obtained citizenship.

6 According to what you know personally, were there such cases?

7 A. I have to explain this at the beginning. Regarding the members

8 of the El Mujahedin Detachment who acquired citizenship on the basis of a

9 certificate saying that they were members of the army, this was quite

10 regular. There were cases that a certain number of students or people

11 who were living in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and who were never members of

12 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, either for money or as a favour were

13 given such certificates and did acquire citizenship. And unfortunately,

14 as this date is completely deformed, their citizenship was confirmed,

15 whereas those of us who acquired citizenship legally are being deprived

16 of it.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ajman.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this video clip be admitted

19 into evidence, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you please give us the number of that video

21 clip, madam, again.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] VD18, VD18.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. VD18 is admitted into

24 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 1139, Your Honours.

Page 238

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see another video clip. It

3 is a very brief one. Could the technical department play VD19 for us,

4 please.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Awad, now that you have seen this video clip,

8 is what you have said on this video correct? Is this what you have just

9 been telling us?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to

12 tender this video clip into evidence too. Let me just add and repeat

13 that it is VD19.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. VD19 is admitted into

15 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 1140, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Awad, let me ask you some more questions. Testifying

20 yesterday, you mentioned on a number of occasions Arab humanitarian

21 organisations, and you said also that you came to Bosnia-Herzegovina

22 through one of them.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I should now like the witness to be

24 shown D769. D769.

25 For the record, it is a document of the security services centre

Page 239

1 in Zenica, 24th of November, 1995. It contains a list of foreign

2 humanitarian organisations operating in the territory covered by the

3 security services centre of Zenica.

4 Q. So will you please take a look at this document.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're struggling with our files here to get this

6 number.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Here it is. We have to go back in the file.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No problem.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: These documents don't follow each other

11 chronologically. They are not coming -- the way they are tendered into

12 court, so we're having serious problems trying to follow you,

13 Madam Vidovic.

14 Yes, you may proceed.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm aware of that.

16 How -- it's the fault of Mr. Mundis, because I have followed his sequence

17 in the examination without really putting the documents in order. I know

18 that I included in the binder far more documents than I had to.

19 I hope you've now found D769.

20 Q. And I would like to ask the witness --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have -- we have, thanks.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Witness, you see a list of humanitarian organisations, and all

24 these were operating in the territory of Zenica. The one under number 4,

25 Mowafaq foundation with its seat in Zenica, was that the humanitarian

Page 240

1 organisation that you mentioned having come through it to Bosnia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it true that it was -- that another humanitarian organisation

4 was active, that is the Islamic Balkanic Centre [as interpreted]?

5 A. I don't know whether the Islamic Balkan Centre was a humanitarian

6 organisation. It was a centre. Now, whether it acted as a humanitarian

7 centre I can't be certain.

8 Q. But was it operating in the territory of Zenica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What about the High Saudi Committee? Was it also active in the

11 territory of Zenica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What about Igasa? Igasa, was it also active there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How about Human Relief International?

16 A. Yes. It is still active in fact.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

19 this document into evidence.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

21 please be given an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit 1141, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Awad, let me ask you a question relating to Exhibit 1130.

Page 241

1 Exhibit 1130. If you remember, it was a document in which two members of

2 the El Mujahid Detachment is mentioned, and one of them was Mr. Fazlic,

3 and the other was Norudin [phoen] Alihodze. These were people who went

4 to the school that is known as Ros, R-o-s, the officers' wartime school

5 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 A. Yes. It is the wartime officers' school, R-o-s, or Ros.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think perhaps it is

8 not necessary to show the witness the document as he remembers it well.

9 Q. I just wanted to ask you something in connection with it. Do you

10 agree that both of these persons are local Bosnians, Muslims, locals?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Not a single foreigner attended the Ros, did they?

13 A. You are right.

14 Q. Thank you. Let me also ask you some questions regarding the

15 operations at Vozuca, the Ozren-Vozuca pocket in July 1995 and in

16 September 1995. I'll ask you, Mr. Awad, about the July operation first,

17 which you described yesterday.

18 Before the July operation you interpreted discussions about the

19 evacuation and aid to be given to the wounded; is that right?

20 A. Yes, that's right, prior to the operation.

21 Q. You said that will the detachment at the time was formally

22 resubordinated to the 35th Division; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I would put it to you and ask for you to comment if I submit that

25 General Sakib Mahmuljin was the commander of the 3rd Corps at the time of

Page 242

1 the preparations for the July operation, which you testified about

2 yesterday, that he was in the area of Sarajevo working on the deblockade

3 of Sarajevo. Would you accept that?

4 A. I said yesterday that as far as I remember, there were no

5 meetings with General Mahmuljin. So you have now reminded me that the

6 deblocking of Sarajevo was underway at the time, so it is quite possible

7 what you are saying.

8 Q. In other words, you're not at all sure that General Sakib

9 Mahmuljin was in contact with the detachment during the preparations for

10 the July operation; is that right?

11 A. Yes. Right.

12 Q. Please, you told us that the detachment called the operation Al

13 Karame [phoen].

14 A. Al Karame, yes.

15 Q. You said that you knew that there was an exchange of 10 or 11

16 prisoners of war. Do you remember saying that?

17 A. Yes, that's what I said.

18 Q. You also mentioned a meeting after the Al Karame operation with

19 representatives of the division at their request. Do you recall that?

20 A. Yes. We had a meeting with them. That's right.

21 Q. You said that at that meeting Abu Mali was present. Do you

22 remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At that meeting did Abu Mali mention any prisoners of war to

25 Commander Hasanagic? Do you remember that?

Page 243

1 A. I don't remember whether that was discussed. I can't claim that.

2 I can't be sure. I can't remember. I really can't remember.

3 Q. Very well. In any case, you knew that -- you knew of the

4 existence of these prisoners of war after the July operation. Did you

5 find out, see, or hear that any or all of these prisoners of war were

6 mistreated by members of the El Mujahedin Detachment?

7 A. I neither saw or heard anything about it.

8 Q. Now I would like to ask you about the attitude of the

9 El Mujahedin Detachment towards the prisoners of war. Have you ever

10 heard of something called the Geneva Conventions on Prisoners of War?

11 A. Yes, there is this convention that regulates the warfare and

12 methods of warfare.

13 Q. Could you tell us, please, did the El Mujahedin Detachment have

14 their own rules relating to prisoners of war and, if yes, what were they?

15 A. There wasn't an official rule, as it were, but there was a

16 general understanding that we should treat such prisoners humanely. I

17 even saw a video clip showing people talking with the prisoners of war,

18 giving them some biscuits and so on.

19 Q. Witness, tell me this: You're a Muslim. You know the religious

20 precepts. It is true, isn't it, that Islam as its own precepts relating

21 to the treatment of prisoners of war?

22 A. Yes, there are such precepts.

23 Q. Could you tell us what they are?

24 A. Well, they state that you have to treat them in a humane manner

25 and that they have certain rights, that they should not be treated

Page 244

1 cruelly and so on.

2 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did the El Mujahedin Detachment abide by

3 these precepts?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It is correct, is it not, that the corps command, in fact,

6 forwarded copies of the Geneva Convention to the detachment? Would you

7 accept what I put to you?

8 A. I don't remember anything like that, that anything like that came

9 to a detachment, was received there, and in view of the fact that this

10 was a religious detachment, I'm not even sure that it would have been

11 accepted.

12 Q. Mr. Awad, did you have occasion to read this Convention? Does it

13 differ, in effect, from what the Islamic precepts and attitudes toward

14 prisoners of war are?

15 A. I did not have occasion to read it before, earlier.

16 Q. In any case, you cannot exclude the possibility that this

17 convention was actually forwarded to the El Mujahedin Detachment? It's a

18 whole separate issue whether it would have been accepted or not, but you

19 cannot exclude the possibility that it was forwarded to the detachment?

20 A. There is that possibility. I cannot claim either way. I did not

21 have it in my hand, so I can't say either yes or no.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: We might as well just put one more question in

24 this respect, because we're going to get there any way, and the question,

25 of course, will be whether the rules that the witness has just told us

Page 245

1 about, the -- the internal -- if I may use this expression, the internal

2 rules applying to prisoners of war would also apply to infidels.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we had no prisoners of war

4 who were Muslim.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: My question was: If the rules that would apply

6 that the -- that the El Mujahid Detachment had developed or had brought

7 with them relating to the treatment of prisoners of war, whether there

8 would be any distinction as to how you would treat prisoners of war who

9 were also Muslims or prisoners of war who were infidels or not Muslims.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are rules that apply to

11 non-Muslims, because we never had Muslim prisoners of war. We were not

12 in conflict with Muslims to have such prisoners of war.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let me then put my question more directly. Would

14 there have been different rules applying to a Muslim prisoner of war, or

15 would, in your understanding the rules be the same regardless of whether

16 the prisoner of war was a Muslim or a non-Muslim? Was there in any

17 word -- in other words, any distinction?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a very broad question. So

19 if we're talking about warfare between Muslims there are certain rules,

20 and when the warfare -- when the war is waged against non-Muslims, the

21 rules are different. But as far as prisoners of war are concerned, they

22 are to be treated in a humane way. If you -- if you had a prisoner of

23 war who was Muslim, you would not be allowed to take his booty, war

24 booty.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Suppose you would discover that come of the

Page 246

1 prisoners who were taken by the El Mujahid Detachment turned out to be

2 Muslim, would he then be subjected to different treatment?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot proceed from that

4 proposition because that was not how it was nor would it be, because this

5 detachment was not fighting Muslims, and whatever is non-existent I

6 cannot comment.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Suppose, just to take an example, a prisoner of

8 war who had been taken by the El Mujahid Detachment would decide to

9 change his religion and become a Muslim, would that then make him subject

10 to different treatment? Just take it as an example.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he would no longer be a

12 prisoner of war. He would be a Muslim, which would mean that he would

13 not be a prisoner.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.


16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, in the detachment was

17 there a procedure of interrogating war prisoners -- or prisoners of war?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you were not in the least

20 interested in having information about the enemy and the conduct of the

21 conflict by the enemy?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say no, it means I don't

23 know whether anybody interrogated them or not. I didn't have any contact

24 with them. I didn't do any security work, so I really don't know whether

25 anyone was interrogated or not. But certainly we needed information

Page 247

1 about their numerical strength, for instance. In any army that applies.

2 But as far as I know -- or, rather, I don't know whether anyone

3 interrogated those prisoners of war because I had no contact with them.

4 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And if they were interrogated,

5 there would have been another interpreter instead of you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who would question

7 them. The detachment was of a mixed composition. There were Muslim --

8 there were foreigners, and there were Bosniak Muslims. So I don't know

9 if anybody questioned them, but I did not have any contact with them.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Were there other people who

11 spoke directly to the prisoners and who were not persons who only spoke

12 Arabic?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I could notice, the

14 guards were Bosniaks, and I don't know if they talked with them.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Awad, I will dwell very briefly on this topic. When you say

18 "guards," "Bosniaks," you are referring to Bosniak members of the

19 El Mujahedin Detachment?

20 A. That's -- that's what I meant.

21 Q. Thank you. Just one more thing. Tell us, you fought in this

22 area against the army of Republika Srpska, and you said that you knew

23 that there were some prisoners of war. These were people of Serbian

24 ethnicity. In other words, not Muslim. They were Serbs; right?

25 A. Yes, they were Serbs.

Page 248

1 Q. All right. Now, the rules that you mentioned a few moments ago,

2 the precepts regulating the conduct and treatment of war -- prisoners of

3 war that you said existed, which regulated that the treatment should be

4 humane, those precepts would also apply to those prisoners of war, in

5 other words, to those Serbs?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about the

8 Farz operation. This was an operation entitled Farz, and this name as

9 assigned by the Bosnia-Herzegovina army; is that right? The detachment

10 had their own name for this operation; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. The -- this operation was called the Farz operation before

12 the actual operation. It was determined by the army, and after the

13 successful execution of this operation the detachment had a different

14 name for it. They called it Bedr Al-Bosnia.

15 Q. Bedr Al-Bosnia?

16 A. Yes, Bedr Bosnia.

17 Q. All right. Now let me ask you this: During this operation, the

18 Bedr Bosnia operation, or Farz, did you ever hear that members of the

19 El Mujahedin Detachment took 61 prisoners of war, members of the

20 Republika Srpska army, and took them to the thirteenth kilometre -- to

21 the camp at the thirteenth kilometre?

22 A. No. I never heard of that.

23 Q. Now let me ask you this: The camp was small. Would you agree?

24 A. Yes. There was a small area at the foot of a hill.

25 Q. All right. Now, would you agree with me 60 people, that's a

Page 249

1 large number of people? It's not just six people. It's a significant

2 number of people.

3 A. Yes. This would mean that this could be three combat groups in

4 terms of numbers.

5 Q. So if so many people were taken prisoner -- prisoner of war and

6 brought to this camp, the thirteenth kilometre camp, would you have heard

7 about this?

8 A. Certainly. If I heard of imprisonment of ten people, of course I

9 would have heard for a greater number of people.

10 Q. You mentioned that you attended the meeting held on the 10th or

11 11th of September in 1995, and you said that General Sakib Mahmuljin also

12 attended this meeting. In other words, the 3rd Corps commander.

13 Tell me this: Did anyone make any mention on this occasion of

14 the taking of 61 Serb prisoners of war?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Please try to recollect another thing. You mentioned yesterday

17 that as far as you could remember, this meeting was also attended by the

18 commander of the 328th Brigade; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Did he at any point in time during this meeting make any mention

21 of his group having taken these prisoners of war, these 61 people, and

22 that the -- that Mujahedin had seized these people?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. Did he in any manner complain of the conduct of

25 members of the El Mujahedin Detachment in that respect?

Page 250

1 A. Not at this meeting. Not at this meeting, that's for sure.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Awad. I will have another question.

3 You described -- you told us that you knew of a group of

4 prisoners of war and that this group had been handed over. Was there any

5 reason why the El Mujahedin Detachment would hand over a group of

6 prisoners of war and kill off another group of prisoners of war?

7 A. There's no logic to that.

8 Q. I have one last question, and I think this will complete my

9 cross-examination.

10 Mr. Awad, I would now just like to briefly touch upon the topic

11 of commanding and the relationship between the detachment and the army.

12 Let us take a hypothetical situation?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you getting on to the last topic before the

14 end or the last question before the end? If it is the last topic, would

15 this be a convenient time to take the break and you can start the topic

16 later? But if it's the question, I'm prepared to stay here another two

17 minutes for you to finish the question.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said last question,

19 and I think it will not be long, the actual question, the last question.

20 Q. Mr. Awad, I would like to ask you just to imagine the following

21 situation: Can you imagine that the president of the Presidency and the

22 General Staff of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina ordered the

23 replacement of the entire leadership of the El Mujahedin Detachment, thus

24 Abu Mali, the military commander Muatez, the Sheik. Please, would this

25 decision be accepted by the detachment or would it wait for the Shura's

Page 251

1 decision or act pursuant to the position that the Shura would take in

2 that situation?

3 A. Absolutely it would not accept it. It would accept the Shura's

4 decision. What the Shura decided, that's how it would be.

5 Q. Please, and just one small question. These views of yours, were

6 they also known to the people from the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

7 that you communicated with?

8 A. From what I know, they knew that we had our internal order. I

9 don't know if they knew whether we would act like this. This is

10 something else. Perhaps some did know and some did not and so on.

11 Q. This is a fair answer. Mr. Awad, I would like to thank you.

12 A. Thank you.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have completed my

14 cross-examination.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We will then take a break

16 and come back at half past 1.00. Court adjourned.

17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has just

21 a few final questions for the witness.

22 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

23 Q. Mr. Awad, on how many occasions did the El Mujahedin Detachment

24 refuse to go where the ARBiH ordered the detachment to go?

25 A. From what I recall, this did not happen once.

Page 252

1 Q. Sir, on how many occasions did the El Mujahedin Detachment launch

2 an attack on its own initiative without the ARBiH ordering such an

3 attack?

4 A. Again, I have to explain here. For any action, any attack would

5 be preceded by agreement. When we agreed with the command of the corps

6 or the division. Once an agreement was reached pursuant to a specific

7 order or something. Nothing could happen without this agreement taking

8 place. So this really needs to be explained properly. Therefore, the

9 detachment never went anywhere on its own, but it would go for an

10 agreement first. Once the agreement was reached or they were summoned,

11 only then would they proceed to go off on an assignment.

12 Q. Now, can you tell us -- you spent -- you were asked a number of

13 questions about the role of the Shura in the disbandment of the

14 detachment, and my question to you, sir, is: In the absence of an order

15 from the ARBiH to disband the detachment, in the absence of such an

16 order, how likely would it have been for the Shura, on its own

17 initiative, to make the decision to disband the detachment?

18 A. We have to speak logical things. Shura and the people in the

19 detachment had come to fight, so how would they then just give up the

20 fight themselves? If they wished to fight, there must be some kind of

21 cause or reason for the Shura to make a decision to disband the unit and

22 to stop fighting.

23 Since pressure was exerted in Dayton on the Bosniak side to stop

24 the war and to end the fighting, and this was the desire of the late

25 President Alija Izetbegovic and the desire of these people here, then the

Page 253

1 Shura took into account this wish and the interest of the Bosniak people

2 and adopted such a decision.

3 Q. I understand that part of your testimony. My question, though,

4 is how likely would it have been for the Shura, on its own, to take the

5 decision to disband the unit had there not been an order from the ARBiH

6 to do so?

7 A. It most probably could have reached such a decision if there was

8 no longer any need to fight or if it was not satisfied with the fighting

9 in Bosnia. Then it could reach such a decision.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Awad?

11 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic. Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no questions

14 arising from the questions of the Prosecutor. I may have some questions

15 arising from Your Honours' questions, though.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry. Yes. I -- I made a boo-boo there.

17 Thank you.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, in view of the fact

20 that I speak in French and that I'm listening to you in English, will you

21 please speak slowly in providing the answers so that I can understand you

22 properly. Have you understood what I've asked? Thank you.

23 I have several questions. You came to ex-Yugoslavia to study in

24 1982. When the war broke out you moved to Bosnia. On what basis did you

25 make that decision, on an individual basis or by decision of your

Page 254

1 organisation or any other organisation or institution?

2 A. The reached the decision myself on my own initiative, without

3 anyone's organising -- organisation or suggestion. I made the decision

4 when I saw what was happening to the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

5 listening to the stories of the refugees who came to Rijeka in Croatia.

6 That's when I was working to receive all these refugees, and I was

7 working on humanitarian tasks. And I decided that elderly people can

8 also do those tasks, people who are older, and that I as an able-bodied

9 young man can go to Bosnia and Herzegovina and contribute more. I can

10 participate in something that was far greater.

11 The main reason why I came was that I am a Muslim and of --

12 practising, practising Muslim, and I felt that it was my duty to help the

13 Muslims who were suffering. This is why I made this decision.

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Did you have a

15 sufficient amount of money, you personally, or did your humanitarian

16 organisation provide you with the funds to come to Bosnia, to pay for

17 your stay in a hotel and -- in a hotel, and later to rent an apartment?

18 A. I said that I worked for a humanitarian organisation. I joined

19 the organisation, the Mowafaq foundation, thinking that they were

20 organising training for soldiers in Bosnia and Herzegovina, for Bosniak

21 soldiers in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I wanted to work as an interpreter

22 and translator, and I also wished to participate in the fighting.

23 When I was asked by the director of the humanitarian

24 organisation, the Mowafaq Foundation, who wanted to enter Bosnia or who

25 wanted to go to Bosnia, to be there, and he said that there was a

Page 255

1 possibility for that, I used that option, and I entered Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina at the expense of the humanitarian organisation that I was

3 working for. Excuse me.

4 I was receiving a salary at this organisation, so this is what I

5 used to live on.

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would now ask you to clarify

7 something, if you can, in connection with the document that has been

8 admitted into evidence, 1126, in which it says that the Arabs were sent

9 by the Croats on a mission in support of the HVO. This document was

10 signed, if I'm not mistaken, by the commander for morale of the 7th

11 Muslim Brigade, Adilovic.

12 Do you know anything about this, whether Arabs, and you yourself,

13 perhaps, came because there was a mission by foreigners in support --

14 decided in support of the Croatian army?

15 A. If I understood your question properly, I see that perhaps this

16 document was not translated to you properly, the document that you

17 referred to. The document says that three Arabs were captured by the

18 HVO. They did not go to assist the HVO.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps the document can be put on the ELMO so that

20 we can all see it. That might be the best.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That would be very helpful, sir.

22 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the first

23 paragraph of this document. If I'm not mistaken, there's reference to

24 foreign citizens who are in our republic on benevolent missions, useful

25 missions, by the Croatian Defence Council units.

Page 256

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess -- I guess the translation of this

2 document was done a little badly; correct? The translation should be:

3 "We would like to hereby inform you -- inform the 3rd Corps about the

4 foreign citizens who are in the republic on benevolent and useful

5 missions who are captured by the Croatian Defence Council units." That's

6 how it should have been. Now the verb has been put so far away from the

7 noun that it causes the confusion that you are suffering.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: Thank you. Now it is clear.

9 [Interpretation] You told us during the examination-in-chief that

10 you received a camouflage uniform from a member of the 7th Muslim

11 Brigade, if I'm not mistaken, the commander for -- for morale, perhaps,

12 Brzina, something like that.

13 During the cross-examination, you told us, in response to a

14 question put to you by Madam Vidovic, that this uniform was given to you

15 by a military commander, to a humanitarian worker, because that is what

16 you were at the time, in the form of a present.

17 Was it normal for humanitarian workers to receive as gifts

18 military uniforms?

19 A. It was normal at that time, and that's how I got it.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But you know that that's a rule

21 that humanitarian workers, in order to be able to work and during combat

22 operations, they are supposed to assist the persons participating in

23 combat, they had to have a sign, an emblem, something that will

24 distinguish them. So did you have any such emblem or symbol to

25 distinguish you from others?

Page 257

1 A. I didn't have any emblem.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I'm talking of the

3 period before you decided to become a combatant, a fighter, the first

4 period of your stay here as a humanitarian worker, as you told us.

5 A. I didn't have an ID as a humanitarian worker. I didn't have any

6 insignia. I didn't wear any insignia as a humanitarian worker. Yes,

7 just slowly. I am going to explain everything.

8 The Mowafaq Foundation, as a humanitarian organisation, was just

9 in the process of being registered. It had just submitted its documents

10 for registration to Croatia, in Zagreb, and the Foreign Ministry

11 protocol, or whichever ministry dealt with the humanitarian

12 organisations, in order to process documents, the admission of requests

13 and the decision on the organisation, would usually take a month, two, or

14 even three months, so that practically when I entered Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina the Mowafaq Foundation had still not received any insignia or

16 any documents that its workers could carry.

17 I had joined the organisation. I was in Zagreb, and I was

18 working for that organisation for only 15 days. Then I entered Bosnia

19 and Herzegovina. Earlier I explained why I joined the organisation, and

20 it was when I thought that they were actually organising this training in

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So I didn't have any insignia or any documents

22 from that humanitarian organisation.

23 As for the uniform, I received it on the day that I decided to be

24 with the Mujahedin. Halil Brzina didn't know about this decision of

25 mine. He knew me as a humanitarian worker. And I can say that this was

Page 258

1 a friendly, an ahbab [phoen] way that he gave me this uniform when I

2 asked him for it.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Two more small questions for

4 you.

5 This in particular that you just said, I didn't quite understand

6 from your testimony how you decided to join the detachment precisely when

7 it was decided to formally establish it.

8 A. I said what my wish was and what my objectives were when I came

9 to Bosnia. On the day of the incident in Zenica and the humiliation that

10 I experienced from the HVO police, and the humiliation that I experienced

11 from the Bosnian police who were unable to protect me as a man. They

12 were helpless. The HVO was insulting me, and the other guys were keeping

13 quiet and just watching. No one was protecting me.

14 And when I came to Bibista [as interpreted], I decided there will

15 be no return, only fighting, fighting, and fighting.

16 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you already had relations

17 with the commanders of the detachment, which still hadn't been formally

18 established.

19 A. I met those people before, for example, at markets, in mosques,

20 and --

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I see. My last question: The

22 order to demobilise and to leave the country, was it given in a general

23 fashion, or was it individually for each foreigner who was present on the

24 territory of Bosnia and who had participated in the defence of Bosnia?

25 A. The decision was a general one that applied to foreigners. The

Page 259

1 decision in Dayton referred to foreigners in general. It didn't name

2 anyone in particular, that they had to leave.

3 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes. That's the Dayton Accords.

4 But afterwards, the implementation of those accords or the provisions of

5 the Dayton Accord, in those Bosnia legislation. Was it a general

6 provision, or was it directed against each and every foreigner present

7 here?

8 A. The decision was a general decision. It was not directed at

9 individuals.

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 A. You're welcome.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 First of all, I would like to address a question to the parties,

14 because I'm not quite sure if the witness's statement has been admitted

15 into evidence. Is that the case?

16 MR. MUNDIS: No, it is not. It's not been tendered by either

17 party.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

19 Mr. Awad, you told us that the military academy at Ros at one

20 point was anticipated to receive two persons from the El Mujahid

21 Detachment to be trained as officers in the ABiH. And I think you also

22 told us that these two persons actually never joined the school; is that

23 correct?

24 Sorry, let me just clarify.

25 A. They became officers. Not only did they join the school or

Page 260

1 enroll at the school, they also became officers.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much for that clarification.

3 Now, how was the El Mujahid Detachment financed? Do you know?

4 A. Mostly by donations from the Islamic world.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if the ABiH supported the El Mujahid

6 Detachment financially, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 A. No, not financially. We had our own logistics, our own

8 logistics, own service. Maybe in operations we would ask for some

9 materiel and equipment, maybe some ammunition or certain types of

10 weaponry that would not -- we did not have, or ammunition for the weapons

11 if we didn't have it and we couldn't buy it, and then we would get

12 something from the corps. Otherwise, we had our own independent

13 logistics, and we were own stronger than the corps as far as that is

14 concerned.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Logistics, what does that mean? Would that

16 include armory, artillery?

17 A. Everything, generally.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you were able to purchase for -- the

19 El Mujahedin itself was able to purchase artillery and to get it by

20 independent means, that is to say not from the army? Is that correct, or

21 how was it?

22 A. Yes, that is correct, because we were buying weapons. The

23 factory that was manufacturing weapons, Bratstvo of Novi Travnik, is

24 where we bought a rocket launcher, and we also bought a 120-millimetre

25 mortar. They were really not supposed to sell those things just like

Page 261

1 that, but we, nevertheless, did buy it from them.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: And then I understand that you were also able, at

3 some point at least in time, to seize weapons from the enemy.

4 A. Yes. To a great degree, yes.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: So let me return to the question. What sort of

6 artillery were you given by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, if any?

7 A. We didn't get anything from the army, no weaponry at all, whether

8 it was mortars or howitzers or any other weapons. No. No.

9 We had 120-millimetre mortar, two 80-millimetre mortars. Then

10 later in actions we captured a mountain gun. I think it was a ZIS

11 recoilless gun. We captured a tank, a lot of ammunition, many rifles,

12 and so on.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let me just be clear about this. So what you are

14 saying is that you received logistical support from the army of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina, but you never received any weaponry, be it artillery or

16 infantry weapons. Is that how it was?

17 A. Once we received about 100 rifles, I think, but those rifles were

18 returned. When the detachment was disbanded, then the weaponry was also

19 returned to the 3rd Corps.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: I was just going to come to that, because I think

21 you told us earlier that all the weaponry that you had gathered was

22 handed over to the 3rd Corps when the El Mujahid Detachment was

23 disbanded, and that would include the rifles that you have just mentioned

24 to us, the infantry -- light infantry weapons that you had been given by

25 the ABiH, and all the weapons that you had purchased on your, and also

Page 262

1 the weapons that you had captured from the enemy; is that correct?

2 A. [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

4 A. [In English] Welcome.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now, I would be interested then to turn to the

6 second and the third attack in 1995.

7 In the July operation, you mentioned that you heard of some -- a

8 group of some ten prisoners of war. You may have explained this already,

9 but I would like you to repeat exactly what it was you heard about these

10 ten prisoners of war. Do you know where they were taken and where they

11 were held and what happened to them?

12 A. [Interpretation] I know that they were held at a camp at the

13 thirteenth kilometre, in a building. It was a hard building, not a tent.

14 I saw a guard standing there outside, so I inferred from that that they

15 were inside.

16 These prisoners were handed over to the military police of the

17 3rd Corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know why they were handed over?

19 A. Well, it was normal for them to be handed over to be exchanged.

20 There was no need for us to keep them there and guard them, so they would

21 be exchanged, whether it would be through the Red Cross or through the

22 various exchange commissions. So they could be exchanged for Bosniaks or

23 members of the army that had been captured. That is most probably what

24 it was.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if the ICRC, the Red Cross, was

Page 263

1 involved at any point in time?

2 A. As far as I know, while they were captured and held by the

3 El Mujahedin Detachment the Red Cross was not involved. As for what

4 happened later on, I don't know. I have no knowledge about the

5 activities of the Red Cross or the -- or the 3rd Corps afterwards.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. I was just checking if the ICRC

7 visited the Kamenica camp where they were held, but that was not the

8 case, I understand.

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were you staying at the Kamenica camp at that

11 time? Were you living there?

12 A. No. At the thirteenth kilometre, no.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Where were you staying at that time?

14 A. I was -- when the preparations were being done for the operation,

15 I slept in the Brezik school or the village of Livade.

16 Before that I stayed in Zenica. I had an office close to the

17 commander. I was a kind of secretary there, so that I would be close to

18 the commander to receive guests or somebody who wanted to talk to the

19 commander. So I was in Zenica.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: When did you see the guard outside the house

21 where the prisoners were kept? Was that during a visit or -- or how come

22 you -- I mean, you must have been present at the Kamenica camp when you

23 saw the guard standing outside the house. So what were you doing there?

24 A. I don't know who I came with, whether it was the commander or

25 someone else. Anyway, he came there to inform the emir in the camp

Page 264

1 regarding future activities, to see whether new scouts, new groups should

2 be engaged as the Arabs were staying there, and whether the operation

3 needed to be continued, then scouts who were put up there needed to be

4 used for that purpose.

5 I can't remember exactly, but I did visit the camp, and I did see

6 the guard. I saw the guard standing there in front of this building.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you visit the Kamenica camp frequently at

8 that time? Did you come there very often or ...

9 A. Not so often. Not so often. I had no need to stay in that camp.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: When did you -- or, rather, when you visited the

11 Kamenica camp the next time were there still guards outside the house?

12 A. No. I don't think so. After that I went to Zenica. I stayed

13 for quite some time there before the preparations for the third

14 operation. So I didn't go to the camp often. And the last time I went

15 there there were no guards. They weren't there.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Who told you about the ten prisoners who had been

17 held in Kamenica? How did you learn about there being prisoners kept

18 there?

19 A. I saw two prisoners when the small Arab captured two of them, and

20 the story was that there were prisoners there, which is quite normal. I

21 heard that there was a certain number. I didn't know exactly how many

22 until I saw the list which I signed when the military police took over

23 those prisoners, because my signature is on that document.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if any prisoner remained at Kamenica

25 after the group had been transferred to the 3rd Corps in Zenica?

Page 265

1 A. As far as I know, no one was left behind. That is what I know.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let me then turn to the operation in September,

3 the Farz operation.

4 Although your statement has not been admitted into evidence, I

5 think you mentioned somewhere in your statement that you saw three women

6 being detained. Is that correct?

7 A. No, it is not correct.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: And -- and my question is: Where were you

9 staying at the time in September 1995? Did you visit Kamenica, or did

10 you stay there?

11 A. To go to the camp at the thirteenth kilometre, I would go there

12 briefly. I was staying at the Brezik, and there was a school there where

13 we were billeted, and that is where I slept, in Brezik.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you remember if you visited Kamenica -- the

15 thirteenth kilometre camp after the Farz operation?

16 A. As far as I can remember, I didn't visit that camp again, as we

17 continued towards Brizna [phoen], Maglaj. So neither the commander nor

18 Muatez had any need to go back. In fact, the unit was moved from the

19 thirteenth kilometre camp to -- to Bocija and Jablanica, I think the

20 place was called, close to Maglaj.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: So what you're telling us is that at no point in

22 time leading immediately before the Farz operation, or during the

23 operation, or shortly after did you visit the thirteenth kilometre camp;

24 is that correct?

25 A. I didn't say before the operation. Before the operation we would

Page 266

1 visit, because that is where the army was rallying. But afterwards. You

2 asked me afterwards. Afterwards, I didn't go to the camp again at all.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. We have heard during this trial that

4 sometimes foreign combatants, enemy soldiers, would be decapitated. Did

5 you ever hear or see any such decapitation or -- or combatants who had

6 been decapitated?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may say that the

11 last question by Judge Harhoff was perhaps misunderstood by the

12 interpreter and it wasn't correctly interpreted. I think it's only fair

13 to say that.

14 The question that we heard in the Bosnian interpretation, the

15 question by Judge Harhoff, was whether foreign fighters had their heads

16 cut off, and I don't think that is quite the question put by the Judge as

17 I was listening to English.

18 For the sake of correctness towards the Trial Chamber and the

19 witness that His Honour Judge Harhoff, if he considers it to be

20 important, to repeat his question.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't consider the question to be important

23 given that I understood that the witness had never seen any signs of such

24 decapitation. In that case my question becomes irrelevant.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Judge.

Page 267

1 Mr. Awad, in your answer to some of the questions that were put

2 to you by Judge Lattanzi, I -- I got a little confused, and I would like

3 to get some clarification.

4 You said that when you were given this uniform as a gift, the

5 officer who gave it to you did not know of your intentions at the time to

6 join the Mujahedin. Did I hear you correctly to say so to

7 Judge Lattanzi?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what then would be the reason for him to give

10 you, as a civilian, a military uniform?

11 A. I asked for a uniform, and he gave it to me's knew me from

12 before, and he probably hoped that through me he might receive some aid.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is new, that you asked for it. Anyway,

14 that's okay.

15 Now, I'm a little -- still a little puzzled that here is an

16 officers in an army who can find it so easy to give government property

17 to civilians. Is that normal?

18 A. My dear Judge, people behaved as they wished, each on his own.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And they will behave according to laws also, don't

20 they?

21 A. They should behave according to laws.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And there are those who do keep to the laws. I

23 want to find out what is wrong with this officer that makes him get --

24 step outside the law and give a civilian government property. What was

25 wrong with him?

Page 268

1 A. My assumption is that he is not a professional soldier. He used

2 to be a civilian, and in the war he became a soldier and a person who may

3 not be familiar with the military rules. He behaved in the way he

4 thought he could. I believe had he been a professional soldier, he

5 certainly wouldn't have acted in that way.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you for that answer.

7 You also told us that there were two reasons for the Mujahedin

8 that you belonged to to ask to be established and be -- be incorporated

9 into the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The one reason was that you

10 wanted to protect the local members of that Mujahedin from being accused

11 of desertion. The other reason was that you wanted your Mujahedin to

12 operate legally within the structure of the army. Is that correct? Did

13 I summarise you correctly? All right.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: All right. And if I remember you well, on Friday

16 when you testified on this point and through your testimony on Friday,

17 you were telling us that once established, it was operating within the

18 structure. It was -- it was obedient and taking instructions.

19 In fact, at some stage when you were referred by

20 Madam Vidovic - I think it was yesterday - to a passage from one of your

21 statements where you had indicated then, and I'm not talking about today,

22 I'm talking about yesterday, where you indicated you were not

23 instructions in that written statement, you said that was before the

24 formation of the El Mujahid Detachment. Am I right?

25 A. What was meant was the determination of priority, where we would

Page 269

1 attack and along what axes and so on. Before the El Mujahedin Detachment

2 was formed, we did not receive any instructions or any orders. But after

3 the establishment of the detachment, the priorities of the attack would

4 be determined by either the Operative Group or the corps command. And I

5 repeat, we would be invited to come to discuss the issue. They would

6 tell us that it was very important to gain control of a particular part

7 of territory. We would engage in reconnaissance and so on.

8 Do you understand me?

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're running far ahead of me. Just let me ask

10 the questions, and listen to the questions and answer the questions. I'm

11 still on these reasons for joining the ABiH.

12 You -- you wanted the detachment or your group as a detachment

13 within the army to operate within the law. That's how I understood you.

14 That's correct?

15 A. I said --

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I'm wrong, just say I'm wrong. You see, you're

17 going to try and give me an explanation. Have I misunderstood you?

18 A. We say that we wanted this group to be designated as such so that

19 things happening around it should not be attributed to it, so that the

20 group should have its own name and where it is acting.

21 For example, we're in Mehurici, something happens in Travnik, and

22 then people will say, "These Mujahedin." No. The Mujahedin at Mehurici

23 had their name, the El Mujahedin. As for those in Travnik, I don't know

24 about them, nor am I interested in them.

25 That is why we wanted to be legality, not to act fully been the

Page 270

1 law as you said.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the point I'm trying to say. If I

3 understood you well, when you explained this you said there were many

4 other Mujahedins there who were committing illegal things, and you didn't

5 want yours to commit illegal things, isn't it? You didn't want your

6 group to be accused of the illegal things that are committed by the

7 others. Therefore, you wanted to be -- stay within the legal

8 organisation.

9 A. That's right.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, do I understand by that that if anyone of the

11 El Mujahedin Detachment, once established, committed a law -- a crime

12 that broke the law of this country would -- how would it handle that

13 situation? And I'm asking you this because you were asked today about

14 infractions, and you said the Shura would discipline for infractions.

15 I'm not talking about infractions. I'm talking about crimes,

16 given that you wanted to on operate within the law.

17 A. In view of the fact that there were no infractions or measures --

18 I don't remember that there were any infractions that I could say this

19 could be done in this way or another way. I don't remember any such

20 infraction.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me remind you. You told us about an

22 infraction of one of your members who was detained for 15 days and was

23 warned that he would be expelled if he repeated that. So that is an

24 infraction.

25 I'm talking of a crime. Let us assume that one of -- one of the

Page 271

1 El Mujahedin Detachment people killed somebody, killed a civilian. Not

2 in combat, just in the street. Would that be for the Shura to deal with,

3 or would that be for the laws of the country to deal with?

4 A. In view of the fact that this didn't happen, and thank God it

5 didn't, I cannot be specific what would happen.

6 In 1993 an incident occurred when a humanitarian worker was

7 killed, and two members of the El Mujahedin Detachment were arrested and

8 put in gaol, but these men had nothing to do with that event. They were

9 in a vehicle driven by the person who had carried out that attack and who

10 was not a member of the El Mujahedin Detachment. They spent a month in

11 prison.

12 So if something like that happened, I believe that the people

13 would be -- would have been arrested and put in gaol, as happened to

14 these two men.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the short answer is that, in fact, they would

16 have been dealt with by the laws of the country, in terms of the laws of

17 the country. That's your short answer.

18 So that the Shura maintained discipline within the EMD, but

19 crimes were always the responsibility of the state.

20 A. It should have been like that, but thank God nothing like that

21 happened.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that you say nothing like that

23 happened, but I just want to understand that -- what did you mean by

24 wanting to operate within the law? Your second reason for wanting the

25 join the army. You wanted to make sure that you stay within the laws of

Page 272

1 the country, and therefore you stay within the legal -- I'm trying to

2 understand that, and I'm -- I'm saying if somebody within the EMD broke

3 the law, would then the Shura take the law unto itself and -- and deal

4 with that person, or would it hand him over to the law of the country to

5 deal with him? Because if it would deal with him personally and not hand

6 him over, then that second reason is not valid. So I'm trying to get a

7 reconciliation between these two positions. What -- you wanted to

8 operate within the law. What would you do if an EMD person committed a

9 crime? When I say "you," I mean the EMD.

10 A. Well, you see, the Shura did nothing regarding those two men

11 while they were in gaol. So it didn't interfere into that case.

12 I believe it would have acted similarly had something like that,

13 God forbid, happened.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You would have let the laws of the country take

15 their course. Thank you --

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- very much. You told us that you saw two

18 prisoners of war during this time. The other time you only heard about

19 them. You didn't see them.

20 Were you ever aware of any other people who were detained,

21 whether they were prisoners of war or civilians?

22 A. The detachment never had contacts with civilians. The detachment

23 operations were exclusively conducted on military terrains: Hills,

24 trenches, hand-to-hand fighting. I don't remember there being any other

25 prisoners. For these others I knew, because I knew they were exchanged.

Page 273

1 I saw a list. I didn't hear of any others. I didn't hear of anyone else

2 being captured, imprisoned, and things like that.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see. Okay. Your statement has not been

4 tendered into evidence, so I can't ask you my next question.

5 A. It's not up to me.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no. No, it has nothing to do with you. It's

7 got to do with the lawyers. Don't you worry.

8 Okay. I guess then that brings me to the end of my questions,

9 because I can't take the matter any further.

10 Any questions, Mr. Mundis?

11 MR. MUNDIS: No questions from the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic?

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just a few short

14 questions.

15 Further cross-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Awad, I wanted to clarify this last topic

17 that the Presiding Judge, His Honour Judge Moloto, asked you.

18 As far as I understood your statement, and please correct me if

19 I'm wrong, when you said that you decided to establish the detachment and

20 to join the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you said that, "We wanted to

21 become legal."

22 Does that mean that you wished to be a unit of the army of Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina?

24 I hope that the Judges heard your answer. You said --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear what the witness

Page 274

1 said.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. What I wanted to ask you is this: At no point did you say that

4 you had decided to accept all the laws of this country at that time?

5 A. I didn't say anything like that before. And the Judge insisted

6 on specific things; could we act like this or like this. I believe it

7 was possible to act like this. These are my views.

8 Q. Well, let us clarify this a little bit, please. When you were

9 responding just now to the questions of His Honour about killing -- the

10 killing of a humanitarian worker, you said that you and the Shura thus

11 had knowledge that those people were not killers. Am I correct?

12 A. Yes, you are.

13 Q. This means that the Shura in fact did not have any reason to

14 review that case, because they knew that these people were not killers.

15 Am I correct?

16 A. Yes, you are correct.

17 Q. On condition that the Shura knew that these really were killers,

18 could you please tell us if they would have then dealt with this matter?

19 A. Of course they should have dealt with that matter.

20 Q. And something else on that same topic, please. The Judge asked

21 you about legal matters, about adhering to domestic laws. Now I would

22 like to ask you this: You recall me showing you a document a little bit

23 earlier from which it can be clearly concluded that pursuant to the

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina laws foreigners should have, must have, given

25 statements on voluntary membership of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 275

1 That was the law of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Do you accept that?

2 A. Well, if you say that that is the law, then that is the law.

3 Q. You saw that in the document. The document referred to the duty

4 of providing a statement to that effect about joining -- about a foreign

5 volunteer voluntarily joining the army. Do you recall that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you accept that you did not obey that particular law? It

8 was not applied. Isn't that so?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. In other words, do you accept that you did not consider it your

11 duty to apply the laws of Bosnia and Herzegovina which did not coincide

12 with some of your convictions about conduct or some of your rules?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. And, Mr. Awad, I just wanted to put one more question to you

15 which arises from the questions put to you by Her Honour Judge Lattanzi,

16 and it has to do with this organisation, the Mowafaq organisation. I

17 would like to ask you this: Was the seat of the organisation in Saudi

18 Arabia?

19 A. I don't know whether it was Saudi Arabia. I know that the

20 foundation was registered in Zagreb. It's possible that their seat was

21 in Saudi Arabia. Possibly it was in the United States. I'm not sure

22 where the seat was. It's something that I did not really think about.

23 Q. Do you know that Jasin Abdulah Al Kaidi [phoen] was for a while

24 at the head of this organisation? Are you aware of this?

25 A. Jasin Al Kaidi perhaps was the founder or the owner. In any

Page 276

1 case, I did hear of that, yes.

2 Q. Have you also heard about Kiafiq bin Muhammed Aijaidi [phoen] as

3 at the head of the organisation?

4 A. No. This is Shafik Al Aiad [phoen]. Shafik al Aiad.

5 Q. Is that a person linked to the organisation?

6 A. Yes. He was my director.

7 Q. All right. Can you please tell me if -- well, you mentioned that

8 the organisation was registered in Zagreb. Please, is it correct that

9 the organisation - I'm talking about the Mowafaq Foundation - was

10 connected with the Croatian Islamic Centre, if you know?

11 A. I worked for them very briefly. I was in Zagreb for 15 days only

12 working for that organisation, so I really don't know that.

13 Q. Once again, Mr. Awad, thank you very much.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

15 questions for this witness.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 Mr. Awad, there's -- that brings us to the conclusion of your

18 testimony, and let me take this opportunity to give you our heart-felt

19 thanks as the Chamber for coming to testify, and we know that we -- it's

20 been quite a strenuous couple of days -- three days. It was not easy,

21 but we are happy that you could stay on have the staying power to the

22 end. Thank you very much, and best of luck in your future endeavours.

23 You are now excused. You may stand down.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for having the time to

25 what are me. I like to talk a lot, and thank you for your patience in

Page 277

1 listening to me.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. We really appreciate it.

3 You are excused. You may stand down. Thank you very much. Thank you.

4 Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then obviously today you given off for tomorrow

7 morning. We'll go home.

8 Thank you very much. Will the court -- court adjourned. Do we

9 adjourn to a specific date? I thought there was a tentative arrangement

10 for the 14th.

11 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: I do believe we're on the court's schedule for the

13 14th. I believe that's in the afternoon, for purposes of the 98 bis

14 proceedings. I think prior to that I should officially indicate that the

15 Prosecution rests. We've closed our case.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

17 MR. MUNDIS: So I'll put that on the record. And it's my

18 understanding that we'll have the 98 bis proceeding in the afternoon on

19 Thursday, the 14th of February. That's -- that's certainly my

20 understanding at least.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Registrar has just indicated that it will be

22 in Courtroom II. In the ICTY, not at the state court.

23 Anything else?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Nothing else from the Prosecution.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic?

Page 278

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Well, in that event, then, maybe what

3 remains to be done is once again to place on record our thanks to the

4 state court of the BiH for receiving us and giving us the use of their

5 facilities and for the very kind treatment they extended to us during our

6 stay here. I guess it is not inappropriate to mention that the meals

7 have very good, and the staff has very been very kind to us. Everybody

8 has been very helpful. And over and above whatever thanks will be given,

9 we just wanted to record this to the President of the court and to ask

10 her to extend our thanks to the rest of her staff. Thank you very much.

11 Court adjourned to the 14th of February, Courtroom II, ICTY, at

12 2.15.

13 Court adjourned.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.39 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day

16 of February, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.