Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7451

1 Thursday, 13 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the

7 courtroom. Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning

9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

12 Could we have the appearances, please, for today, starting with

13 the Prosecution.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Good morning, Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around

16 the courtroom. Daryl Mundis and Matthias Neuner for the Prosecution,

17 assisted by our case manager, Alma Imamovic.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

19 And could we have for the Defence.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, and

21 good morning to the colleagues from the Prosecution and everyone in and

22 around the courtroom. I am Vasvija Vidovic and Nicholas Robson for the

23 Defence of General Rasim Delic, with our case manager, Lejla Gluhic.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

25 Mr. Husic, good morning to you. I know you know this by now, but

Page 7452

1 it's still my duty to remind you that you made a declaration to tell the

2 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth, and that you are

3 still bound by that declaration.


5 [The witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

7 Mr. Neuner.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note, the witness's

9 microphones are off.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Neuner: [Continued]

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Husic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Yesterday, we stopped at the point where we were talking about

15 combat of the Mujahedin or the El Mudjahedin Detachment outside the area

16 of responsibility of the 306th Brigade, and I want to continue this

17 morning on that course.

18 Could we please have document PT2141 shown to this witness.

19 While it is being displayed, this is a document from the 5th of

20 June, 1995, and it is entitled: "Weekly Information on the Military and

21 Political Situation in the RBiH for Subordinated Units." You can see the

22 title here on the first page, Mr. Husic.

23 If we could for a moment go to the last page. I'm interested in

24 the signature.

25 Whose signature is this?

Page 7453

1 A. This is my signature on this document.

2 Q. So you authored that report; right?

3 A. I haven't authored it, but I -- I signed them, and the reports

4 are prepared by the clerks. This is not a report, though. This is just

5 information for the fighters.

6 Q. If we could go back to page 1, please. And on page 1 -- it's, in

7 English, actually page 2, page 1 of the B/C/S.

8 Please look at the section 2. It is within this section 2 the

9 second paragraph, and in English it is, page 2, the second paragraph.

10 We see here mentioning of Zavidovici and Ozren, and "of our

11 forces (the 35th Division) who were involved in active defence and

12 primary tasks involved in offensive combat activities in the 328 Mountain

13 Brigade zone of responsibility, where excellent results were

14 accomplished."

15 The next paragraph, as you can see then, talks about:

16 "The El Mudjahedin Detachment contributed considerably in the

17 course of the above-mentioned combat activities, inflicting massive

18 losses to the aggressor."

19 Could you explain to me how you obtained that information at the

20 time?

21 A. I explained yesterday that these bits of information that we sent

22 to the fighters on the lines of defence were taken off from the media,

23 and the clerks who were in charge of this would write down whatever was

24 reported in the media, collected it and compiled, and then sent it as

25 information to the fighters of our units.

Page 7454

1 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask that the document be admitted into

2 evidence, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

4 please be given an exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

6 number 1208.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Husic, the information that was picked up

9 from the media, was that information that was available throughout the

10 country?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. NEUNER: I want to move on to the next document, PT2121,

15 please.

16 It's, while it comes up, a report from the 29th of May, 1995,

17 same category, a report on the military and political situation in the

18 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina for subordinated units, and if we

19 could for a second focus on the last page and the signature there.

20 Q. Mr. Husic, am I correct in saying that this is your signature?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. NEUNER: If we could go back, in English, to page 3, and in

23 B/C/S to page 1. And again it is section 2 I am interested in.

24 Q. If you look at the eighth line in the B/C/S version of section 2,

25 for the English it is page 3, the first paragraph. And we see here that

Page 7455

1 the following information is provided:

2 "On the 27th of May, the units of the 35th Division (the

3 El Mujahedin Detachment was in charge of the task) took control of the

4 facilities of Podsjelovo, [indiscernible], Gaj, Prijedor, inflicting

5 heavy losses.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. We are waiting for the page to be

7 turned in the English. We are behind.

8 MR. NEUNER: It's actually the first paragraph on this page 3

9 which is displayed here in front of you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are you reading from?

11 MR. NEUNER: I'm reading -- I started at line 1.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Carry on.

14 MR. NEUNER: We see here that it was reported that the 35th

15 Division forces, including the Mujahedin, inflicted heavy losses to the

16 aggressor troops.

17 Q. Where did you get this information from?

18 A. Also from the media, from the area that is some few hundred

19 kilometres from the area of responsibility of the 36th Brigade.

20 THE INTERPRETER: "306th Brigade," interpreter's correction.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could my distinguished

23 Colleague Neuner always point out the date for the witness's benefit on

24 the document so that the witness understands what is being discussed,

25 because it is my impression that the witness believes that there is --

Page 7456

1 that this is a discussion about 1992. So just to make sure there is no

2 misunderstanding.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: When the document was brought up, we were told

4 that it's a document dated the 29th of May, 1995.

5 MR. NEUNER: I believe I have done so, too, but I cannot scroll

6 the transcript back.

7 Q. Yes, Witness, this is --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You did tell us. That's what I'm saying.

9 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

10 Q. Could you just tell me this last line of the section I was just

11 reading? It says here:

12 "Our soldiers showed the Chetniks how to fight on a battlefield."

13 What did you mean by that portion in the document which you

14 signed?

15 A. I am not the author of this document, as I pointed out earlier.

16 The clerk, who is in charge of information-taking, the information from

17 the media, he compiled this, and as assistant commander in the brigade, I

18 signed these documents and forwarded them to the subordinate fighters.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Husic, you know what? In law, when you put

20 your signature on a document, you're adopting that document as your own.

21 We don't know who that clerk is. We see the person who signed the

22 document, and we want the person who signed the document. Can you please

23 stop telling us about a clerk. This is your document. Okay? And answer

24 questions, because you've adopted the document as your own.

25 Didn't you read it before you signed it?

Page 7457

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I cannot answer as to the

2 meaning of this sentence. It means what it says there.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Look. If you didn't understand the meaning of the

4 sentence at the time you signed the document, you should have told the

5 clerk to change it. And if you didn't, it means you understood. You

6 must then answer questions on it.

7 We are not playing marbles here, okay. We are serious. Don't

8 hide behind tracks who are not here. You're wasting our time.

9 Now, answer your questions honestly and truthfully.


11 Q. And in your position as assistant commander of morale of the

12 3rd Corps, at the time you had the authority to take that sentence out if

13 you disagreed, Mr. Husic?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask that the document be admitted into

16 evidence, please.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

18 please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will become Exhibit

20 number 1209.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.


23 Q. You have talked yesterday about Operation Farz in September 1995,

24 and is it correct that President Izetbegovic visited at the second or

25 third day after the beginning of Operation Farz, when Vozuca had been

Page 7458

1 liberated?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And, in fact, you, as assistant commander for morale of the

4 3rd Corps, prepared, with others, the reception of Mr. Izetbegovic in the

5 area of Vozuca?

6 A. Yes, we were in charge of protocol.

7 MR. NEUNER: I wish to show you two small excerpts on a video now

8 and would ask you to recognise persons. I will first play the tape to

9 you and would then ask you to tell us whom you recognised.

10 Could we have, please, from Exhibit 409, a small excerpt shown

11 now. And I'm referring here to a portion about a minute starting at time

12 code 40 minutes and 55 seconds. I'm informed it starts at 40 minutes

13 25 seconds.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. Did you recognise anybody here?

17 A. Yes, I did. On President Izetbegovic's right-hand side, on the

18 left-hand side of the screen, is Sakib Mahmuljin. On the other side of

19 President Izetbegovic is the commander of the 35th Division,

20 Fadil Hasanagic. Behind the president, I think of the two persons shown,

21 I'm not sure whether one of them is Mr. Ribo Haso, it could be, but I'm

22 not absolutely certain, and the other person is Abu Maali, the commander

23 of the El Mujahid Detachment.

24 MR. NEUNER: Could I, with the assistance of the usher, have --

25 still handed out to the witness, and this is PT6166.

Page 7459

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which is PT616?

2 MR. NEUNER: 6166 is the PT number assigned to this still by the

3 Prosecution.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

5 MR. NEUNER: Yes, please.

6 Could you -- we are having some technical problems. Yes.

7 Q. Could you please mark, above the head of Mr. Izetbegovic, a

8 number 1.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Above the head of Mr. Hasanagic a number 2, please.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Above the head of Mr. Mahmuljin a number 3.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Above the head of whom you believe to be Haso Ribo a number 4.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And above the head of Mr. Abu Maali, a number 5, please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Could you please sign with today's date, adding today's date, the

19 13th of March.

20 A. [Marks]

21 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution offers this document into evidence.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor -- or, rather, Mr. Witness, do you

23 know the gentleman to the left rear of the late president, the gentleman

24 sporting a beard and wearing a white cap?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

Page 7460

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: PT6166 is admitted into evidence. May it please

3 be given an exhibit number.

4 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, it was 6166.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: 6166, sorry.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become Exhibit

7 number 1211.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

9 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honours. This will be 1210.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought so.

11 MR. NEUNER: I now wish to play a second excerpt from Exhibit 409

12 to you, and the time code is 43 minutes 35 seconds until 44 minutes

13 56 seconds.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. Could you tell us whom you recognised on this excerpt?

17 A. The first person whose head you can see only is the assistant

18 commander for security of the 3rd Corps, Mr. Ekrem Alihodzic. The second

19 person with grey hair, I don't know. The third person is the commander

20 of the 2nd Corps of the RBiH Army, Mr. Sead Delic, and the fourth person

21 is Mr. Bakir Alispahic, but I'm not sure what position he was on at the

22 time.

23 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has another still. It is PT6168.

24 Q. Could you mark, above the head of Mr. Ekrem Alihodzic, a number

25 1, please.

Page 7461

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And next to the nose of Saed Delic, a number 2, please.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: How about on his cheek?

4 MR. NEUNER: Or on his cheek, yes.

5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

6 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

7 Q. And again on the cheek of Mr. Bakir Alispahic, a number 3,

8 please.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. If I'm putting to you that Mr. Bakir Alispahic was at the time

11 the Minister of Interior, what would you say?

12 A. It is possible, but I really don't know. I'm not sure:

13 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution offers this document or this still

14 into evidence.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: PT6168 is admitted -- I beg your pardon. PT6168

16 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit

18 number 1211.

19 MR. NEUNER: And from this sequence, the Prosecution has produced

20 a second still. This is PT6170.

21 Q. Whom do you recognise here?

22 A. In the front is the late President Izetbegovic. Behind him, the

23 first person on his right-hand side, but on the screen on the left-hand

24 side, is the commander of the 3rd Corps, Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin. The person

25 next to him, on his right side, is Abu Maali, and the person next to him,

Page 7462

1 the person with a beard, is Ajman. I don't know his name. I just know

2 that he was called "Ajman."

3 Q. Could you mark, above the head of Mr. Izetbegovic, a "1." I'm

4 told on the forehead.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. You have just marked -- then please continue -- you've just

7 marked it above his head. Could you continue to mark a "2" on the

8 forehead of Mr. Mahmuljin.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. A "3" on the forehead of Abu Maali.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And a "4" on the forehead of the person Ajman or referred to as

13 "Ajman."

14 A. [Marks]

15 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution offers this document -- this still

16 into evidence.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: PT6170 is admitted into evidence. May it please

18 be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become

20 Exhibit 1212.


22 Q. I want to move back to 1993 now and the events in late May, early

23 June 1993 in the Bila Valley. I want to show you, first of all, a map.

24 This is D1044.

25 While the map is being displayed: Do you agree with me that

Page 7463

1 before the war, Croats and Muslims or Bosniaks lived in the Bila Valley?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And especially in the upper part of the Bila Valley, there were

4 almost exclusively Bosniak persons living?

5 A. Yes, in a part of it.

6 MR. NEUNER: I don't see the map being displayed. I was asking

7 for D1044. Thank you.

8 Q. Do you, first of all, agree that this is a portion -- or this map

9 depicts a portion of the Bila Valley?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And we talked yesterday about Gluha Bukovica. Gluha Bukovica is

12 in the upper part of the Bila Valley which is not depicted on this

13 portion of the map; do you agree?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 MR. NEUNER: Maybe we can scroll it a little bit up. Yes. The

16 other way, actually.

17 Q. In Gluha Bukovica, there were mainly Bosniaks living at the

18 beginning of the war; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Also in Dub?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In Mehurici?

23 A. Not in Mehurici. In Mehurici, there were Croats and Serbs and

24 Bosniaks, but the Bosniaks were in a majority.

25 Q. And in Jezerci?

Page 7464

1 A. In Jezerci, the inhabitants were Bosniaks.

2 Q. And in Podovi, the inhabitants were Bosniaks, too?

3 A. These are not Podlugovi but Podovi, and the population was mixed.

4 In half of the settlement, there were Croats, and the other half was

5 inhabited by Bosniaks.

6 Q. And in Krpeljici, this was --

7 A. As for Krpeljici, the majority were Bosniaks, but in the left

8 part of the village there were mixed houses of Croats and Bosniaks.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would it be asking too much if we asked that you

10 mark these places that you are talking about?

11 MR. NEUNER: Yes. I was going to do this in the next step.

12 Okay, we will do it right now.

13 Q. Could you please mark Dub with a number 1, please.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you. Mehurici with a number 2.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Jezerci with a number 3.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Podovi with a number 4.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Krpeljici with the number 5.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. And I'm going on with the villages now. Guca Gora, could you

24 tell us -- could you first of all mark a number 6?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 7465

1 Q. Thank you. And could you tell us what the dominant population in

2 Guca Gora was?

3 A. The majority population of Guca Gora were Croats.

4 Q. Thank you. Radonjici with the number 7.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And the majority population was Croat?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Bukovica?

9 A. There are two Bukovicas, the large and the small one, so one is

10 Croat and the other Bosniak.

11 Q. So could you mark the Croat one with an "8."

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. And the Bosniak part of Bukovica with a "9."

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Miletici was a Croat-inhabited location?

16 A. Possibly, but there were Bosniaks living there as well as Croats.

17 Q. Could you mark the Bosniak part with a "10"?

18 A. [Marks] It is one settlement. They're not separated.

19 Q. Then I misunderstood you. Then mark the entire part of Miletici

20 with the number 10, please.

21 And if we could go to Maline, you agree with me that there were

22 two parts in Maline, it had a mixed population?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In Gornji Maline, Croats were living, and if you could mark that

25 with a number 11 if you agree.

Page 7466

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. You agree, yes, that there were Croats living?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in Donje Maline, Bosniaks were living?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you mark that with a "12," please. And if I understood

7 your testimony correct yesterday, you, by the 28th of May, 1993, got

8 stuck with Mr. Sipic and other officers in Krpeljici, which you have

9 marked with the number 5. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You have been also shown yesterday Exhibit 90, referring to the

12 death of Sakib Brkic, a person from Dub village. Do you remember?

13 A. Yes, I do remember.

14 Q. And if I remember correctly, the document said that, and Your

15 Honours asked you about this, he was killed in the Probijeno Brdo sector.

16 This is elevation 1009, by the Frankopan Brigade. Do you remember this?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the what sector?

18 MR. NEUNER: The Probjeno Brdo sector, and I will ask the witness

19 about this, at elevation 1009.

20 Q. Do you remember? Do you remember talking about this document

21 and Mr. Sakib Brkic yesterday?

22 A. Yes, I do remember.

23 Q. Could you point out on this map where Probijeno Brdo, elevation

24 1009, is, please.

25 A. The name of the elevation is something I have never heard, but I

Page 7467

1 know it's close to the village of Suhi Dol.

2 Q. Could you maybe mark Suhi Dol with a "13."

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you. So it was near the village of Suhi Dol where

5 Mr. Brkic was killed; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. We were talking about the combat activities which were going on.

8 Could you enlighten the Chamber? At the beginning of June, when you were

9 getting stuck, where about was the confrontation line between the ARBiH

10 and the HVO, before the outbreak of the combat activities?

11 A. As you can see, the settlements have mixed populations, and there

12 was a -- there wasn't a definite line. All the Bosniak villages in this

13 area southeast of Mehurici were blocked, each one of them individually.

14 And on the 4th of May, after the ultimatum given to the villages of

15 Velika Bukovica, Radonjici --

16 Q. Sorry for interrupting you. I was only interested with the

17 situation of the forces not on the 4th of May but at the beginning of

18 June; late May 1993, beginning of June 1993.

19 A. I apologise. I thought you were referring to the 4th of May. So

20 what I just said applied to the 4th of May, 1993. The villages of

21 Velika Bukovica, Bandol --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Tell us about June.


24 Q. I was asking the position of the forces, HVO forces and ARBiH

25 forces, at the beginning of --

Page 7468

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: June, thanks.


3 Q. -- June, 1993.

4 A. The positions were such that there were trenches around each

5 village. There wasn't a line, and the HVO held the dominating elevations

6 above the villages of Maline Kljake and the village of Velika Bukovica.

7 Q. Could you tell us which villages, and you can just refer to

8 numbers here, were controlled by the HVO at the beginning of June 1993?

9 A. You mean which belonged to them or which they had encircled and

10 surrounded?

11 Q. Which belonged to them? And we will come to encircled later.

12 A. The villages of Mala Bukovica --

13 Q. Just refer to numbers. The HVO held the following villages.

14 Could you please tell the numbers just?

15 A. Number 8, Radonjici; number 7, Gornji Maline; number 11,

16 Guca Gora; number 12, a part of Podovi; number 4 --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which is number 6? You say number 12 --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that is what I said.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... number 12,

20 unless I'm hearing something that I shouldn't hear.

21 MR. NEUNER: So can I summarise?

22 Q. 8, 7, 11 and 6, and Podovi, 4, were held by the HVO at the

23 beginning of June 1993?

24 A. And a number of villages in the southeastern part of this area.

25 Q. You're referring to the area of Han Bila?

Page 7469

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you mark that Han Bila maybe or the southern part -- you

3 said "east part," southeast part -- the area southeast of Han Bila

4 where --

5 A. [Marks]

6 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think we have used number 13 at Suhi Dol.

10 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry, 14. I was mistaken. I apologise. 14.

11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

12 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.

13 Q. And is it correct to say that the following villages were held by

14 the ARBiH, and I'm just proposing numbers to you, if you could just say

15 "yes," number 13 --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Dub, number 1?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Miletici, number 10?

20 A. Miletici were mixed. There were Croats and Bosniaks living

21 there.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say the villages you were mentioning were

23 held by the ARBiH?

24 MR. NEUNER: Yes.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not inhabited by?

Page 7470

1 MR. NEUNER: Just I was interested in control over villages.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you control our witness?

3 MR. NEUNER: Okay. Maybe I do it the other way around.

4 Q. You tell me which villages -- which numbers, so to speak, were

5 controlled by the ARBiH at the beginning of June. Just mention the

6 numbers.

7 A. 1, 13, 2, 9, 5, 12 and 3.

8 Q. Thank you. And the main combat operations began on the 8th of

9 June, 1993; correct?

10 A. No. They began on the 4th of June.

11 Q. On the 4th of June; okay. And could you tell me an approximately

12 date when they ceased?

13 A. On the 10th of June, an order came on the cessation of

14 hostilities and the operations quietened down, but they hadn't ceased

15 completely.

16 Q. I was asking you when the combat operations had completely

17 ceased.

18 A. It is hard to answer that question. On the 10th, they eased, but

19 there were incidents. The order came on the 10th to cease hostilities,

20 and that is the date that is considered to be a cessation of hostilities.

21 But after that, there were just occasional incidents or provocations.

22 Q. But what you're saying is that the lines were basically not

23 significantly moved?

24 A. The problem of lines is a key issue here. Actually, we had

25 villages that were surrounded, so you can't call them combat lines, in

Page 7471

1 the traditional sense, and a blockade of communications.

2 Q. Could you tell me, after the 10th of June, 1993, about which

3 villages the ARBiH had established control? Just refer to the numbers

4 here. And if control remained as before the 8th of June, can you also

5 refer to the villages? I'm interested in all villages held by the ARBiH

6 on the 10th of June.

7 A. All the villages marked on the map, on the 10th of June, were

8 under the control of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Q. So this applies to number 1 until number, or number 14 as well?

10 I'm just trying to clarify.

11 A. 13 as well -- no, 14 as well, it was constantly under the control

12 of the Army of BiH.

13 Q. So is it fair to conclude that as a result of the combat

14 activities starting, as you said, around 4 or 5 June 1993, the ARBiH

15 controlled all of a sudden the southern part of the Bila Valley, meaning

16 all the villages from 1 until 14?

17 A. Yes, but before that the Army of BiH had lost four villages

18 captured by HVO forces on the 5th, 6th and 7th of June. On the 5th, 6th

19 and 7th of June.

20 Q. And regained them?

21 A. Yes, but they were burned down and destroyed, and the population

22 removed.

23 Q. But the fact remains that through the combat activities at the

24 beginning of June, the lower part of the Bila Valley was still under the

25 control of the ARBiH; right?

Page 7472

1 A. I would call it the upper part of the Bila Valley, the upper part

2 of the Bila River.

3 Q. But we are referring to the map here depicted in front of you;

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So to sum up, the combat operation at the beginning of June was a

7 success for the ARBiH, wasn't it?

8 A. At first, we had very high losses, and later on we achieved

9 success.

10 Q. You gained territory?

11 A. Yes. First we lost some territory, and later we gained some

12 territory.

13 Q. And you established control even over villages which you could

14 not control before, such as Guca Gora, for example?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you, because we were talking so often about it, mark Hrasce

17 with a "15" on this map, please.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. You encircled it. Could you mark a "15" next to the circle,

20 please.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Is it fair to say that in this corner of the map, meaning this

23 elevation point marked with "15," elevation point Hrasce, there was one

24 of the last remaining pockets of the HVO after the offensive at the

25 beginning of -- the successful offensive at the beginning of June?

Page 7473

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution tenders this map into evidence.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: This map is admitted into evidence. May it please

4 be given an exhibit number. This is now D1044; am I right?

5 MR. NEUNER: Yes, D1044.


7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit

8 number 1213.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

10 MR. NEUNER: We can maybe have the map still displayed for a

11 moment.

12 Q. You explained to us that you were blocked in Krpeljici, number 5

13 on this map, since 28 May 1993; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And if I understood your testimony yesterday correctly, the

16 blockade of Krpeljici was lifted sometime in the night between the 8th

17 and 9th of June, probably in the early-morning hours of the 9th of June;

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, but only one side of it.

20 Q. So access was possible to Krpeljici from one side of it. Could

21 you maybe indicate, by an arrow, from which side access was possible?

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Thank you. Could you maybe draw the arrow a little bit clearer,

24 because I don't see exactly from which side.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 7474

1 Q. Okay, thank you. So is it fair to say that Krpeljici was

2 deblocked from the location of Radonjici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And Radonjici is marked by number 7 here on the map?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if I understood you correctly, until that lifting of the

7 blockade in the early hours of 9th of June, you could not leave

8 Krpeljici?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you could not participate, therefore, in any outside

11 activities and in combat activities going on in some of the villages

12 outside Krpeljici?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And from Krpeljici, you had no direct view of Maline?

15 A. No, absolutely not. You can't see Maline.

16 Q. There are, in fact, two mountains, elevation 851 and elevation

17 770, which blocked the view, is it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So, in other words, on the 8th of June, while you were still in

20 an encirclement, you could not see any combat activities going on in the

21 area of Maline, could you?

22 A. I couldn't.

23 Q. You were talking about the forces lifting the blockade of

24 Krpeljici from the direction of Radonjici. Could you confirm that the

25 1st Battalion -- or elements of the 1st Battalion of the 306th Brigade

Page 7475

1 lifted the blockade of Krpeljici?

2 A. No. The blockade of Krpeljici was lifted by the population, not

3 as a formation, not as a battalion, but the people living in the villages

4 that were attacked.

5 Q. Could you confirm that elements of the 4th Battalion of the 306th

6 Mountain Brigade were also lifting -- or were lifting the blockade of

7 Krpeljici?

8 A. Some elements, yes, but as the local people living there. The

9 brigade at that time did not function as a military unit. These were the

10 villages of Dub, Visnjevo, Suhi Dol, et cetera, et cetera. So the

11 population just rose up.

12 Q. But can you confirm that elements of the 1st Battalion of the

13 306th Brigade were at least lifting or attacking -- sorry, I will

14 rephrase. That elements of the 1st Battalion of the 306th Brigade were

15 engaged in combat activities in the area of Bukovica, Bandol, Hrasce and

16 Radojcici?

17 A. No, I have to repeat, we were blocked in Krpeljici and the forces

18 that came and lifted the blockade of Krpeljici were the local people

19 living in the villages that I mentioned earlier, and no unit at that time

20 functioned within the 306th Brigade.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I -- sorry, sir, Mr. Husic. Are you saying

22 that people from Dub, and now there's a new name here which we haven't

23 seen on the map, Visnjevo, Suhi Dol and other villages, came and lifted

24 the blockade in Krpeljici?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

Page 7476


2 Q. Mr. Husic, do you remember seeing an investigator and myself last

3 week in Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And do you remember that you -- or we were -- or you were giving

6 us a statement last week?

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 MR. NEUNER: We didn't get a translation.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


11 Q. And as the result of your meeting us in Sarajevo, as a result of

12 your statement, we basically gave you -- I rephrase that, please.

13 And we produced what you told us in form of a statement in the

14 Bosnian language, which you could read and study, could you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were in a position to make any correction you wanted to

17 make?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And we recorded, in your own language, every change you wished to

20 make, did we?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you then were in a position to read again the statement

23 before you signed it?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. NEUNER: Could we please have PT6254.

Page 7477

1 Maybe before we do that, I was just informed that there was the

2 arrow drawn on the map. Maybe we can save the arrow, if this is at all

3 possible, before --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You don't want to save the rest of the numbers?

5 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I apologise. I had moved earlier to

6 have the map admitted, and only afterwards the arrow was drawn. I didn't

7 expect it at the time.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. No, that's fine. So you

9 want this map to be made -- given an exhibit number again with the arrow

10 on it?

11 MR. NEUNER: Yes, maybe we can --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And could we give --

13 MR. NEUNER: Suppress the earlier one, if it's possible. I don't

14 know whether it's technically possible.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we --

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, this D1044, now with the arrow on it, is

18 again admitted into evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 1214.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

21 MR. NEUNER: Could we now please display PT6254.

22 Q. Do you recognise this as the statement, in the Bosnian language,

23 which you signed last week, Mr. Husic?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 MR. NEUNER: Could we please move to paragraph 8 now. That's

Page 7478

1 page 3, probably, of the Bosnian version and page 3 of the English.

2 Q. We can see, first of all, if you look at paragraph seven, you

3 talk about the deblockade of Krpeljici, and then you go on in paragraph

4 8, and I will read it to you:

5 "Only one part of the 1st and of the 4th Battalion of the 306th

6 Brigade which were not engaged on the front line in Vlasic against the

7 Chetniks, together with the civilians from the villages who were armed,

8 moved to lift the blockade of the surrounded and attacked villages of

9 Bukovica, Krpeljici, Bandol, Ricice, Radonjici, Maline and Mosor."

10 Do you remember having said that?

11 A. Yes. Yes, I remember, and that is what I'm still claiming. So

12 we did not operate as a unit, but as the people -- local people from that

13 area who were also members of these battalions.

14 Q. But now you're saying "who were also members of these

15 battalions." A moment ago, I asked you whether elements of the 1st

16 Battalion of the 306th Brigade were involved in lifting the blockade of

17 Krpeljici, and you didn't confirm it.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I

20 apologise to the witness. The Prosecutor did not ask whether there were

21 members of, but whether they were part of the battalion, the 306th, and

22 parts of the 4th Battalion, which is not the same thing, if you ask

23 whether elements of that battalion or members. Those are two different

24 things.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

Page 7479

1 MR. NEUNER: I'm just trying to locate the transcript.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I can be of

3 help. That's on page 25, lines 1 through 7.

4 MR. NEUNER: But I'm interested in my question on 25, line 10,

5 and I said:

6 "Sorry, I will rephrase --"

7 Sorry, 25, line 8:

8 "Can you confirm that elements of the 1st Battalion of the 306th

9 Brigade were at least lifting or attacking -- sorry, I will rephrase.

10 That elements of the 1st Battalion of the 306th Brigade were engaged in

11 combat activities in the area of Bukovica, Bandol, Hrasce," and then it's

12 illegible, and before -- on page 24, line 19, I asked:

13 "Could you confirm that the 1st Battalion or elements of the 1st

14 Battalion of the 306th Brigade lifted the blockade of Krpeljici?"

15 I was expressly asking for elements of the 1st Battalion, and you

16 said:

17 "No, the blockade of Krpeljici was lifted by the population, not

18 as a formation, not as a battalion, but the people in the villages that

19 were attacked."

20 Do you remember saying that?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. We still have an objection on the table.

22 Madam Vidovic was on her feet, but I wanted you to finish what you were

23 saying before I asked her.

24 Madam Vidovic, you were -- I thought you were on your feet.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, because it seems

Page 7480

1 to me that the witness is getting confused on this matter. From what

2 Mr. Neuner just read, it's completely clear that he had asked about

3 elements of the battalion as formations, in other words, and not about

4 individual members of those battalions. Those are not the same thing.

5 In fact, the witness already gave his answer.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Neuner, what I'm hearing the witness saying

7 is that, yes, individuals belonging to the 1st and maybe the 4th

8 Battalion of the 306th Brigade did assist in the liberation of Krpeljici,

9 but they did so in their individual capacity. They came probably with

10 their weapons and maybe also their uniforms, but they were not under

11 command. So maybe we can confirm with the witness if this is correctly

12 understood.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But that is precisely Madam Vidovic's basis for

14 objection. You see, when you say "elements," you're talking of part of a

15 unit; in other words, you are saying somebody who is in control of the

16 unit said, "This part of the unit, go and liberate the place." But he's

17 saying, "No, no, no, no such part of a unit came. Individual members who

18 were members of the village, who were villagers, but some of whom did

19 belong to the battalions."

20 MR. NEUNER: I fully agree with this, but I'm only following up

21 on what the witness has told me a week ago, where he expressly said one

22 part of the 1st and 4th Battalion. That's why I was careful in putting

23 it to him, were there elements, because he said a part of the battalion.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is true.

25 MR. NEUNER: I didn't want to lead him on this point, so to

Page 7481

1 speak, but rather get an answer, and what I got was a flat denial.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is true. We're just explaining the answer as

3 it is on the record. You can confront him with his statement, if you so

4 wish.

5 Madam Vidovic -- yes, ma'am, can we hear you.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my objection still

7 stands. The Prosecutor is confusing the witness. In the next -- here he

8 was insisting on paragraph 8, but in the next paragraph, paragraph 9, you

9 have the explanation of what the witness said here in the courtroom, and

10 he says that these were informal groups.

11 In the next paragraph already, the witness is expanding on his

12 position, so he should not be confused here.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic. I guess Mr. Neuner is

14 asking the witness about paragraph 8. If you want to draw the attention

15 of the witness to paragraph 9, you can do so in re-examination. It

16 cannot be the basis of an objection.

17 You may proceed now.


19 Q. I'm just taking issue at this moment with your answer when I was

20 asking for elements of the 1st Battalion. When you answered on page 24,

21 line 23: "No, the blockade of Krpeljici was lifted by the population,

22 not as a formation, not as a battalion, but the people living in the

23 villages that were attacked," but could you confirm that last week you

24 said a slightly different variant, that parts of the 1st and the 4th

25 Battalion of the 306th Brigade, together with some civilians, were indeed

Page 7482

1 lifting the blockade of Krpeljici?

2 A. [Interpretation] What is stated here in the eighth paragraph, I

3 did say, but there is no mention of what you asked about the 1st and 4th

4 battalions. In this statement, what I spoke about was just a small

5 number of individuals who were from the complement of the 1st and 4th

6 Battalions, who were in their villages, and who were able to participate

7 in this lifting of the blockade. If your question was in there, you

8 could have seen that from it, the same way as you are insinuating and

9 insisting all the time that the conflict started on the 8th, and I kept

10 repeating that the blockade and the attack really began on the 28th of

11 May already, and on the 4th of June the villages were attacked.

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but, Witness, the

13 statement -- in the witness statement you gave before today's testimony,

14 you did not mention elements from the 2nd Battalion who were locals. You

15 instead spoke about elements that were not involved on the front line in

16 Vlasic against the Chetniks. So as far as I can see, there is certainly

17 a major discrepancy between these two statements you made.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not see the difference. I

19 don't understand what the difference is.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would this be a convenient time? Maybe when we

21 come back, we can begin to see things better.

22 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

23 Court adjourned.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

Page 7483

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Neuner.


3 Q. Mr. Husic, I want to stay for a moment with you in Krpeljici, in

4 this time period when you were blocked, but I want to move away from the

5 question who deblocked to -- who deblocked Krpeljici to the next issue,

6 and that is whether communications were possible in the time period when

7 you were blocked from the 28th of May, 1993, until the early morning of

8 the 9th of June, 1993. And yesterday, I just want to remind you, you

9 testified, and this was at the end of page 18 -- you got the question:

10 "Did you or did you not have contacts with a part of the Command

11 of the 306th Brigade in Rudnik?"

12 And then on page 19, you responded to that question:

13 "Only until the end of May. As of June 1st, we did not have

14 contacts with any of our units."

15 And you were later on, on the same page, asked to clarify that,

16 and you said:

17 "I did say the 2nd of June, because on the 2nd of June attacks

18 began on these villages, and that was when all the communication was cut

19 off."

20 You were then asked again about communications. I ask you now

21 about the situation in the corps. Did you have contacts with the corps,

22 you from the place where you were blocked off. And you responded on page

23 19, line 24:

24 "No, not with the corps or with anyone else."

25 Do you recall saying that?

Page 7484

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And then you were shown a serious of documents, Exhibit 999,

3 Exhibit 258 and Exhibit 1001, and you were asked, so to speak, about your

4 knowledge about these documents. And on that occasion, I think it was

5 Exhibit 999, you said -- this is page 20, line 19 until 22:

6 "As of the 28th, I was continuously with the commander ..."

7 I skip a part of the sentence, and then it says:

8 " ... we didn't have contacts with anyone."

9 Do you remember having said this?

10 A. Yes. As of May 1st, with no one -- June 1st, I apologise.

11 Q. And today you're also sticking to this version of the events?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Husic, having testified on the 28th of

14 October, 2004, here at the ICTY?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In the proceedings relating to Hadzihasanovic and Kubura?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is it fair to say that at that time, you had a reasonably

19 good recollection of the events?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It may be that your memory was fresher in 2004 than it is today?

22 A. Probably.

23 Q. I want to put something to you, and this is PT2653. It's a

24 transcript portion which is in English, unfortunately, only, but I will

25 read it to you so that it gets translated.

Page 7485

1 And I need page 118, please. For the record, it is transcript

2 page 10896.

3 And while it comes up, just to give an introduction, I will read

4 a part of line 8 so that we can get the context. It's -- thank you.

5 On line 8, we see you talk about, in your answer:

6 "The blockade of the part of the command in Krpeljici ..."

7 And you were asked, on line 21, if you could scroll down on that

8 page, please, the following question:

9 "Can you tell us, please, what is your personal knowledge of what

10 was happening on the 8th of June?"

11 And your answer is:

12 "On the 8th of June, at one moment the whole Bila Valley, one can

13 say, was aflame. The shooting that one could hear from all the other

14 place and from time to time became more intense."

15 And if you could flip the page:

16 "And on that particular day, it was very intense. We didn't know

17 what was going on. And like the previous day, we cried for help. We

18 sent requests for help to the 3rd Corps, but we did not receive any

19 reply. And as a matter of fact, the only thing we could do was to

20 instruct every village to defend themselves with what little strength

21 they have. After that, we received information that our forces, which we

22 kept in the reserve," and so on.

23 And two lines further down, it says:

24 " ... warned us that there might have been an attack from Mount

25 Vlasic ..."

Page 7486

1 Do you remember testifying this at the time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you agree that according to this version of the event, you had

4 contacts from Krpeljici with the 3rd Corps?

5 A. No, absolutely not.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I don't

8 see how one can conclude from this text that they were in contact with

9 the 3rd Corps.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

11 MR. NEUNER: Well, it just says here, on page 10897, lines 2 and

12 3:

13 "We sent requests for help to the 3rd Corps, but we did not

14 receive any reply."

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We saw a dispatch yesterday that

16 was sent from a part of the Command of the 306th Mountain Brigade which

17 was at the Rudnik feature. They were the only ones who had contact with

18 the 3rd Corps, and based on what they had seen and heard, as we had in

19 Krpeljici, they called for help.


21 Q. Okay. So your testimony is that from Rudnik, they could contact

22 the 3rd Corps?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if I go down one line more, "the only thing we could to," you

25 testified, and that's lines 3 and 4, "was to instruct every village to

Page 7487

1 defend themselves with what little strength they have. After that, we

2 received information that our forces," so on and so forth, "warned us

3 again."

4 Doesn't that suggest that you, in fact, had communication from

5 Krpeljici?

6 A. No. On the 28th, we were blocked off in Krpeljici, and until the

7 beginning of the conflict that started on the 1st and 2nd, and

8 intensified on the 4th, we, with one part, with the villages in the

9 immediate surrounding area, we had contact with them, and this contact

10 functioned until the 1st of May. So between the 28th of May and the 1st

11 of June.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Can we just go back to the previous page.

13 Go down to the bottom of the page.

14 Mr. Husic, you are talking about first the 28th of May and the

15 1st of June. This question that is on this transcript, to which you were

16 answering, refers to the 8th of June. Could you see that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of June, there was

18 general fighting.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Wait a minute. Do you see that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a portion of

23 the transcript from the Hadzihasanovic case. The witness cannot speak

24 English, so how could he see?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, this, I think, Mr. Neuner said he

Page 7488

1 was going to read. But, anyway, then let me make you aware, Mr. Husic,

2 that the answer that was being read to you was to a question which says:

3 "Can you tell us, please, what is your personal knowledge of what

4 was happening on the 8th of June?"

5 And your answer started by saying:

6 "On the 8th of June ..."

7 Do you agree with that? That's what you said in the

8 Hadzihasanovic case?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're not talking about the 28th of May or the 1st

11 of June, which is what you are now telling us about. Can you answer the

12 question about the 8th of June, please?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of June, we did not have

14 any contact with anyone. The fighting was ongoing throughout the

15 Bila Valley.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, the question that was being put to you was,

17 if you can turn to the next page again, can it be inferred that you did

18 have communication with the outside world, I'm putting those words in,

19 because you have been told that you said on that day:

20 "We sent requests for help to the 3rd Corps, but we did not

21 receive any reply, and as a matter of fact the only thing we could do was

22 to instruct every village to defend themselves with what little strength

23 they have."

24 Now, this is what you testified about relating to the 8th of

25 June, sir, not the 28th of May, not the 1st of June. That's the question

Page 7489

1 that's being put to you.

2 Can it be inferred that you did have communication?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, absolutely not. We didn't have

4 any communication. I was talking about the broader context that preceded

5 the 8th of June, and that is an imprecision.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not being asked about the broader context

7 preceding the 8th of June, you're being asked about the 8th of June.

8 Now, please listen to the question and answer the question. Don't

9 formulate your own question and answer your own question.

10 Mr. Neuner, you may proceed.

11 MR. NEUNER: Okay.

12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question.

13 You told us that you cried for help to the corps and that you did

14 not receive any reply. Do you know whether the 3rd Corps actually

15 received your request for help?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't know that, whether they

17 received our request for aid.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Now, regarding communications on

19 that day, on the 8th of June, you've mentioned difficulties, the

20 blockade. This could have prevented the 3rd Corps from receiving your

21 requests for help, or did you have a way to make sure that they were

22 going to receive your request, even if there were some difficulties in

23 communicating?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said we sent a request, I

25 was referring to the 306th Mountain Brigade, part of whose command was

Page 7490

1 surrounded at Rudnik. The commander and those of us who were surrounded,

2 his chief of staff and two assistants, at the time had no contact even

3 with that part of the 306th or the corps. So I don't know anything that

4 was happening outside of this.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm not sure of the significance of the witness

7 being able to send messages to the Corps Command, but I'll get back to

8 that.

9 Before I ask this question to the Prosecution, I would like to

10 just clarify with the witness. The call you sent for help to the

11 3rd Corps, was that a call made by radio or how was it dispatched? How

12 did you seek to communicate with the 3rd Corps Command?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This part of the command, the

14 command of the chief of staff, myself and another assistant, we didn't do

15 that. It was the officers on duty in the Command of the 306th Mountain

16 Brigade at Rudnik. Yesterday, we were able to see one such document as a

17 telegram sent to the corps. We saw this during the proceedings. I don't

18 know the exact date, but it was before the 8th of June, maybe the 1st or

19 2nd or 3rd of June. I don't know.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right, because I just need to be sure about the

21 means you had at your disposal for communicating with the outside world

22 when you were sitting there in Krpeljici. You could send scouts out, or

23 you can do it by radio, you can do it by telegram, you can do it by any

24 number of ways, so I'm asking what -- how did you actually try to call

25 for help, or how did the Brigade Command seek assistance? You told us

Page 7491

1 that there was a telegram sent. That is one way. Were you also able to

2 reach the 3rd Corps by radio, if you remember?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from Krpeljici. I'm not an

4 expert on communications, but I will do my best to explain this question.

5 While we were blocked in Krpeljici, we had a system of courier,

6 message links, telephone links, with a inductor military telephone, and

7 radio communications, using the means of communication of the Yugoslav

8 People's Army, and I can't really tell you what kind of device that was.

9 And then on the first or second day of the blockade, the 29th and the

10 30th of May, we did occasionally have communication. The messenger could

11 no longer leave, but the telephone lines were still working, not with the

12 Command at Rudnik, but that was the base of the battalion and battalions

13 had such links. So we contacted the Battalion Command, and they

14 communicated with Rudnik.

15 However, on the 2nd of May, when the all-out attack started --

16 June, I'm sorry -- all telephone lines were down. After that,

17 occasionally we had radio communication not with the Command at Rudnik,

18 because the Command at Rudnik did not have that link, but we had three

19 villages on the outskirts, Velika Bukovica, Bandol and Radonjici. They

20 had JNA radio devices, and there was one radio device in Krpeljici. But

21 when the conflict started, HVO forces at Velika Bukovica had a large

22 radio device, I don't know what type it is, on a truck, and it could

23 completely block and prevent communication with the small radio devices

24 that we had.

25 So I claim with full responsibility from the 2nd of May -- no,

Page 7492

1 the 2nd of June, we did not have any communications.

2 When I said that we communicated with the corps, I meant that our

3 duty officers at Rudnik, three of them, who are actually civilians but in

4 those days were officers, they had some sort of contact with the

5 3rd Corps, and we saw yesterday the telegrams they sent from the Command

6 at Rudnik. However, we, the commander, the chief of staff, myself and

7 another colleague, and the entire battalion, could not communicate with

8 them, or the corps, or with anyone else, except for the village of

9 Krpeljici itself.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much. This was very illustrative.

11 Now remind us, Mr. Neuner, what is the importance of all of this?

12 MR. NEUNER: The importance, in the Prosecution's position, is

13 that the brigade commander was there on that day, and combat operations

14 were going on from Mehurici via Maline and other villages, ultimately

15 lifting the blockade of Krpeljici, and certainly in the aftermath of

16 these combat operations, prisoners of war had been taken as a result of

17 these combat operations, and it is important to show command and control.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, I understand where you are going, but I'm

19 not sure I'm able to conclude that command and control was intact, from

20 having this witness testifying that for seven or 8 days they were cut off

21 in Krpeljici. That was just my point.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you will understand

24 that it is very important for the Defence to know what the position of

25 the Prosecution is. From what the Prosecution here said, and that is

Page 7493

1 that their position is that the brigade commander was there, we want to

2 know what he means "there," when he says "there," does he mean in

3 Krpeljici or in Maline, so we know how to respond as the Defence in this

4 connection.

5 MR. NEUNER: If I understood this witness's testimony correctly,

6 the brigade commander was in Krpeljici on the 8th of June, until he was

7 deblocked. And we had also other witnesses testifying about that

8 situation and testifying about communications with the brigade commander

9 in this time period.

10 Q. Mr. Husic, if I can go on, is it fair to say that the

11 communication, which were partially blocked by that truck from the HVO,

12 they went on and off, meaning sometimes it was blocked, sometimes not,

13 depending on whether the truck worked or not?

14 A. From the 28th of May until the 2nd of June, it did work

15 occasionally. As of the 2nd of May again, when the fighting intensified,

16 the communications no longer worked.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I intervene. At the number of places, we keep

18 talking of the 2nd of May, and then we correct "2nd of June." Now, this

19 time we're saying again "2nd of May," and there's no correction. Is it

20 the 2nd of May we're referring to or is it the 2nd of June? Are you

21 referring to the 2nd of June, sir?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I sincerely do. It's

23 the 2nd of June I'm referring to.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

25 MR. NEUNER: I just want to --

Page 7494

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But I also want you to bear in mind that the

2 questions from the lawyer relate to the 8th of June. So if you keep

3 taking us back to the 2nd of June, you are really not answering the

4 question.


6 Q. If I could just for a moment have the statement which was taken

7 last week being displayed. That's PT6524. And I'm interested in

8 paragraph 4, where you talk about:

9 "We, as part of the 306th Brigade, were completely cut off from

10 the rest of the command of the brigade ..."

11 And then in the second sentence, you say:

12 "During one time period, we could use military induction

13 telephones, but they were also cut off following the begins of clashes.

14 From then on, we were using former JNA radio devices. With Mehurici, we

15 could only communicate through radio device. Actually, the HVO had a

16 communication centre in the area of Bukovica which was interfering with

17 our communication, so it went on and off."

18 So is it correct it went also on, the radio communication; you

19 could use it from time to time?

20 A. We were speaking of the period of time from the 28th of May until

21 the 8th of June, and I described what happened during that time period,

22 and I said clearly and explicitly that from the moment the conflict

23 became massive, that was the 2nd of May, we no longer had any

24 communication.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're referring to the 2nd of May again.

Page 7495

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2nd of June, I'm sorry.


3 Q. If I can just put the sentences again to you, you're talking, in

4 the second sentence, about:

5 "During one time period, we could use military induction

6 telephones, but they were also cut off following the begins of the

7 clashes."

8 And that's the 2nd of June you're always referring to, right, the

9 beginning of the clashes; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then you go on to say:

12 "From then on, we were using these former JNA radio devices."

13 And in the next sentence, you're clearly referring here to the

14 time period after the clashes started. The HVO was interfering, but it

15 went on and off the communication; so it was working, but not the whole

16 time; correct?

17 A. It worked from the beginning of the blockade until the beginning

18 of the clashes. I'm repeating myself for the 10th time.

19 Q. Then you're changing, in the Prosecution's view, the meaning of

20 that last sentence, but I will move on to my last topic, which is the

21 investigation or the course of the investigation into the incident which

22 had happened when the group of Croats was escorted towards Mehurici and

23 some Croats were taken away on the way.

24 And with regard to the course of the investigation, I want to

25 recall what you said yesterday on page 39, lines 4 until 8, "and at this

Page 7496

1 time, because of the all the disinformation we mentioned, mention was

2 made of a huge number of people, tens of people killed in different

3 areas, so at this time we could not find out anything more in any

4 detail."

5 And then you were asked:

6 "Was it established, according to what you know, who were the

7 perpetrators -- who the perpetrators were or not?"

8 And your answer is:

9 "No. We really wanted to establish this, and both the police and

10 the Security Service, but also other services of the brigade, because

11 this was addressed to us, this was at our expense because it happened in

12 our area of responsibility. All of these services really wanted to

13 establish the truth. I know this because we sent policemen who had been

14 intercepted. We sent them to try and identify among these -- from among

15 these armed groups to identify the people by observing those areas where

16 they moved and through which they were moved. However, we were never

17 able to find out the exact information."

18 You remember having said this?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So you have, in detail, described the different steps undertaken

21 and the different services being involved in the investigation, have you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That there was the Military Security Service involved, that

24 policemen were sent, that they were intercepted, that they tried to

25 identify them, the persons, so step by step you're listing the different

Page 7497

1 measures involved or employed; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I just refer now to what you said in the Hadzihasanovic and

4 Kubura case, and this is -- if we can have PT6253, please, on the screen.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner, before we get PT6253 on the screen, I

6 see we are now at PT6254 a second time. Do you want it admitted or not?

7 MR. NEUNER: I believe I read the relevant portions into the

8 transcript.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you don't need it admitted.

10 MR. NEUNER: And therefore it is already captured.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

12 You may move on.

13 MR. NEUNER: Could we have from PT6253 now, transcript pages

14 10934. Later on, we will swap the page to 10935.

15 Q. And you were getting here a question from Judge Swart, and the

16 investigation relates to two investigations at the same time, the

17 investigation into the Miletici events as well as the investigation into

18 the Maline events. I can explain that at the time Miletici and Maline

19 were the subject of the Hadzihasanovic trial, so for the purposes of this

20 hearing today, I'm only interested in the part of your answer which

21 relates to Maline and the course of the investigation there.

22 And if we could go to line 12 -- or line 14, Judge Swart is

23 asking you first, in one question, as I said about two investigations at

24 the same time:

25 "The report on the events in Miletici which you were not involved

Page 7498

1 in an investigation, is this also true for the report that has been made

2 in the investigation that has been carried out for Maline? Were you also

3 not involved in that investigation?"

4 And the relevant part of the answer is: At the beginning, you

5 are referring to Miletici. If I can just go directly to the part related

6 to Maline, that's on line 22 of your answer:

7 "And when it comes to Maline," you said, "there was combat going

8 on. The combat went on for 20 days at the time. And the first

9 information I received about Maline, as I've already said, arrived on the

10 12th of June."

11 And then you go on to say, and we need to swap the page, please,

12 and this is line 2:

13 "Only later on the investigation carried out by the Military

14 Security Service did define everything and provided more details.

15 However, I did not follow the course of this investigation because I was

16 prevented from doing that by the combat activities."

17 Do you remember having testified this?

18 A. Yes, I remember.

19 Q. So if you had said in the Hadzihasanovic trial you were prevented

20 from combat activities from following the course of the investigation,

21 how could you say that certain steps had been undertaken by the Military

22 Security Service, and you were listing these steps?

23 A. The body for morale never takes part in any investigation,

24 because that is the job of the security services. But due to the

25 sensitivity of the issue, the assistant commander for security informed

Page 7499

1 all members of the Command in detail, and that's what I'm talking about.

2 We all knew what the investigation was about, how far it had progressed.

3 We wanted it to be successful so that any suspicions regarding the

4 brigade should be eliminated, to show that our members had not committed

5 those acts.

6 Q. Why didn't you say so in the Hadzihasanovic trial, when you were

7 asked by the Judge?

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic. Sorry, sir. Your lawyer is on her

9 feet. Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The

11 Prosecutor is confusing the witness.

12 In the Hadzihasanovic case, the witness said: "I did not follow

13 the course of the investigation," and he hasn't said anything different

14 during his testimony here. So I would appeal to the Prosecutor not to

15 confuse the witness.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

17 MR. NEUNER: But if the witness is talking about the different

18 steps which have been undertaken by the Military Security Service, how

19 can he do that if he hasn't followed the investigation? That's my

20 question I tried to elicit. That's all I want to establish.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again, the witness

23 stated clearly yesterday and repeated today that he and the Command

24 received information from the assistant for security, and that is not in

25 any contradiction with this, and I'm still claiming that the witness is

Page 7500

1 being confused.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... the question

3 is allowed and the objection is overruled.

4 Carry on, Mr. Neuner.


6 Q. Could you tell me, since you said in the Hadzihasanovic trial:

7 "I did not follow the course of the investigation because I was

8 prevented from doing that by the combat activities," how could you have

9 yesterday remembered all the individual steps by the Military Security

10 Service?

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The

12 witness never said that he remembered all the steps taken by the Security

13 Service. He spoke of Asim Delalic's report, that is, he was the

14 assistant commander for morale, so I'm objecting again.

15 MR. NEUNER: I just want to put another portion to you. First of

16 all, I didn't hear that you looked at Asim Delalic's report.

17 Q. Did you say so, as suggested by my learned colleague?

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just said I think the witness can answer that

21 question, if you talk about somebody.


23 Q. Did you -- it was suggested here. Did you have occasion to look

24 at a report from Mr. Delalic, as suggested by my learned colleague?

25 A. No. I will repeat, and this is not the first time, the commander

Page 7501

1 had ordered an investigation and the assistant commander informed the

2 Corps Command at a meeting about the details of this investigation, about

3 what he had done so far and what he was able to establish.

4 Q. But why didn't you say all these steps you were listing

5 yesterday, why didn't you say that in the Hadzihasanovic case, if this

6 had indeed been the case that at the meeting in Krpeljici, Mr. Delalic

7 had reported about everything already?

8 A. Because I did not take part in them.

9 Q. But that's exactly my point --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

12 Persistently, the Prosecutor is trying to suggest to this witness

13 that he was -- that he stated that he discussed different measures that

14 had been undertaken, and the witness only spoke about the same thing that

15 he has mentioned today, about the report submitted by Asim Delalic.

16 MR. NEUNER: Sorry. I thought -- Ms. Vidovic, I thought I had

17 clarified this with the witness, that he did not see any report from

18 Mr. Asim Delalic, is that right, because you're coming again by stating

19 that he had seen this report.

20 Q. Is it correct, did you see or did you not see a report?

21 I'm clarifying your point, Mrs. Vidovic, because you just brought

22 it up. I'm sorry, I'm trying to find a way out.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor is now

25 trying to confuse me. A report may be -- and I'm using the term "report"

Page 7502

1 which has the same meaning anywhere in the world, including in Germany, a

2 report can be either written or oral. Nowhere was there any mention of a

3 written report. It was an oral report, and he's really trying to confuse

4 me now. This is not fair, and we're wasting a lot of time and we're

5 never going to finish with this witness. He will have to stay over the

6 weekend because of these interventions by my colleague.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: If he has to stay over the weekend, so be it, but

8 we need to get to the bottom of this.

9 Mr. Neuner, you are said to be confusing the counsel and

10 confusing the witness. Do you have any response to that?

11 MR. NEUNER: Now that my colleague has mentioned an oral report,

12 I will try to put this on board. I believe before it was mentioned

13 before that this was an oral report.

14 But the issue of the Prosecution is that the steps which have

15 been reported yesterday, in the witness's testimony, had not been

16 reported -- or had not been testified about at the time when this witness

17 testified in the Hadzihasanovic case, and I think I can almost leave it

18 here.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: In fact, I was going to say, if you stayed on what

20 the witness said yesterday, I know you've mentioned it a little earlier

21 when you detailed him -- told him the details of what actions were taken.

22 If you stayed on that and kept on reminding Madam Vidovic, we probably

23 would not be having this problem, and remind Madam Vidovic that that's

24 what you're talking about. You're talking about the testimony yesterday

25 and how it differs from the testimony in the Hadzihasanovic case. You're

Page 7503

1 not talking about any reports.

2 MR. NEUNER: Correct. I was just trying to take the suggestion

3 from my learned colleague on board, but I will move on. I'm practically

4 done.

5 I just want to read a last passage from the Hadzihasanovic case,

6 and it's on the same page, to this witness. And this is line 18. And

7 there, in your answer, you said:

8 "Now, who it was, with whom and to what extent conducted that

9 investigation, I am not able to tell you because I wasn't there."

10 Q. Is it not correct that you were not in a position --

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. NEUNER: Sorry --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could my learned

14 Colleague Neuner please -- and let me say, first of all, whenever I

15 present portions of a transcript to a witness who does not speak English,

16 we would have a translation ready so that the witness can be acquainted

17 with the context. In this situation, the Prosecutor Neuner is just

18 cherry-picking, he's cherry-picked one sentence here, and I would urge

19 him to read the entire response that the witness gave and not just pick

20 and choose individual sentences out of context.

21 And in the future, Your Honour, if I may suggest that we should

22 have a translation into Bosnian as well so that the witness can

23 understand what it is all about. And I think this has been the practice

24 so far in this Tribunal.

25 MR. NEUNER: If I may respond, the court session yesterday was

Page 7504

1 going on until 7.00, and the part of his testimony which I am trying to

2 dwell on was, so to speak, ready for my notice only after 7.00, and I had

3 no translation service on such a short notice available overnight until

4 this morning, 9.00, to translate the English portions of the transcript

5 in the Hadzihasanovic case into the Bosnian version. We would certainly

6 have endeavoured to do that, but I, myself, needed to identify them

7 first, because I, myself, was also confronted with this evidence from

8 yesterday, only since a few hours. If this is at all possible, we would

9 have done it, but as I said, the circumstances didn't allow for that.

10 I will take my learned colleague's suggestion on board and will

11 just read out the question as well as the entire answer now and ask the

12 witness to comment upon it.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do, Mr. Neuner.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: But before you do so, Mr. Neuner, I need to

15 understand whether this entire discussion goes to the credibility of the

16 witness or whether it goes to the substance of the matter; namely, the

17 question of whether or not an investigation was actually made into the

18 massacre at Bikosi, and whether the witness knew about this investigation

19 and the result of it. So what are we considering here?

20 MR. NEUNER: It certainly goes to the substance of the issue,

21 whether there was an investigation and what steps in the course of that

22 investigation were undertaken, as well as to a certain degree Your

23 Honours have followed the course of cross-examination, also to the

24 credibility of this witness.

25 So in that light, I will read out the question, the entire

Page 7505

1 question, and the answer.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you read it, just give us the

3 reference of the question again on this transcript.

4 MR. NEUNER: It is transcript page 10935, lines 11 and following

5 until 19:

6 "We had a witness before you came, Mr. Siljak, who was also of

7 the 306th Brigade," Judge Swart asks, "and he says the investigation into

8 the events on -- that may have occurred in Maline was done by

9 Mr. Delalic. Is that right?"

10 The answer then is:

11 "He was assistant commander for security, and it was his

12 obligation to do that. He reported to the commander on the events that

13 had to do with the overall security and disruptions that may have

14 impaired the security. Now, who it was, with whom and to what extent

15 conducted that investigation, I am not able to tell you because I wasn't

16 there."

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what I still maintain, and

18 we were informed about this investigation by Mr. Delalic at the Command.

19 And as for the investigation itself, who conducted it, how, and in what

20 manner, I have to repeat, I don't know, I wasn't there, I was busy with

21 other things.


23 Q. But the Prosecution's point is yesterday you stated something

24 else. On page 39, and I'm just reading the portion to you:

25 "We really wanted to establish this, and both the police and the

Page 7506

1 Security Service, but also other services of the brigade, because this

2 was addressed to us, this was at our expense because it had happened in

3 our area of responsibility, all these services really wanted to establish

4 the truth. I know this, because we sent policemen who had been

5 intercepted, we sent them to try and identify, among these -- from among

6 these armed groups, to identify the people by observing those areas,

7 where they moved, through which they are moved. However, we were never

8 able to find out the exact information."

9 Aren't you describing the course of the investigation here?

10 A. Yes, in the manner that we -- as we were informed by the

11 assistant commander for security. And when I say "we," "us," I mean all

12 of us in the Brigade Command, because we were a team that had a task to

13 carry out, and part of that task was something that the Command had to

14 carry out.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Neuner, I think it is

16 pointless to go on about this aspect. The Chamber has now got all it

17 needs in order to assess the situation itself.

18 MR. NEUNER: Yes. I was about to say the Prosecution has no

19 further questions.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Neuner.

21 Any re-examination, Madam Vidovic?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly, Your Honour.

23 Re-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

24 Q. Witness, let us just dwell on this last issue of investigation

25 into Maline. Tell us, please, is it correct that what you were

Page 7507

1 describing here, you were describing what you had heard from Mr. Delalic?

2 A. Yes, the way he had informed the Command and the commander, that

3 is what I mentioned yesterday and that's what I talked about.

4 Q. The next question: Did you, at any point during your testimony

5 yesterday and today, mention or not that you knew which military

6 policemen or who exactly did what during this investigation?

7 A. No, absolutely not, never, because everywhere in the world the

8 security services conducting an investigation will not provide any

9 information to anyone who is not directly involved.

10 Q. Tell me, please, do you see any difference between what you have

11 said here and what you said in Hadzihasanovic before, any difference in

12 those reports or testimonies?

13 A. No, absolutely none.

14 Q. And now just briefly, Mr. Husic, I would like to go back to the

15 statement that was shown to you on a number of times today, PT6254.

16 Mr. Husic, could you please do the following: First, items 8 and 9,

17 page 06323793, that will be on the third page of this statement in the

18 Bosnian version, but also on the English version, Mr. Husic, would you

19 please describe to the honourable Judges how this interview with the

20 Prosecution evolved, how many times were you -- for how many days were

21 you questioned, and how many times did you have to interfere with

22 corrections?

23 A. Yes. I was called by the Prosecutor in Sarajevo to report to

24 their offices, and we agreed -- I think it was Tuesday, and I got there

25 on the first day after having worked from 7.00 to 2.00 in the morning,

Page 7508

1 and we remained there until 7.00 p.m. with me providing my statement.

2 They promised that they would translate that portion for the next day.

3 So then the next day, I had to work again between 7.00 and

4 2.00 a.m. I went to the offices again, spent some time there. I can't

5 remember how many hours. I brought with me the portion of -- I took with

6 me the first part of my statement so that I could enter any corrections,

7 so that in these couple of days I actually worked for over 20 hours a

8 day.

9 Q. I asked you whether this statement, the Bosnian version, was

10 corrected once or on several -- at several levels, several times.

11 A. It had to be -- it was done once, but there were many

12 corrections. There were a lot of corrections that had to be made. I did

13 correct it once, but it was very difficult to do the corrections. There

14 were many of them. That's the point.

15 Q. You said that your statement was incorrect. What do you mean by

16 that?

17 A. What I mean by that is after my first statement, when I spoke in

18 Bosnian and the Prosecutor received this in English, then somebody

19 re-told the whole thing in Bosnian, and when I received that version in

20 Bosnian, it was very difficult, especially because the questions were

21 missing, it was very difficult to correct this statement the way I wanted

22 to do it. It was a very tiring task. I could not formulate new

23 sentences, but the answers that I gave, I wasn't really satisfied with

24 the way they were written down.

25 Q. You did sign the statement. How many days did you spend with the

Page 7509

1 Prosecutor?

2 A. Three or 4 days. On the fourth day, I brought the corrections to

3 my statement.

4 Q. So I conclude that you worked on this for four days, and here we

5 see that there were 16 or 17 days of the statement. Whatever the case

6 may have been, we saw item 8 of this statement. Could you please take a

7 look at it? It was about the elements of the 1st and 4th Battalion of

8 the 306th Brigade.

9 Would you now please take a look at item 9. The Prosecutor

10 confronted you with a portion, claiming that you said that elements of

11 the 1st and 4th Battalion of the 306th Brigade, who were not engaged on

12 the defence lines in Vlasici, together with civilians, began the lifting

13 of blockade, and now I would like you to take a look at number 9. You

14 said:

15 "These were informal groups. I know that there was one group

16 from Visnjevo, another one from Dub, another one from Suhi Dol. Part of

17 them were members of the 306th Brigade from those villages. They were

18 civilians."

19 Please tell us, did you explain to the Prosecutor at that time

20 the same things that you said here today?

21 A. Yes, absolutely, and I would like the Prosecutor to show his

22 questions that he had put, where I gave this answer under item 8. This

23 was a group -- it wasn't a portion of the brigade, part of the brigade.

24 They were local civilians. Some of them were in the 306th Brigade. They

25 weren't part of the brigade, but individuals who were at the same time

Page 7510

1 members of the brigade, but on this occasion they came as village units,

2 after these alarming events, to help and assist the population, the local

3 villagers who had been under attack.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

5 further questions.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

7 Judge.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, you told us yesterday

11 that some of the soldiers of the 306th Brigade abandoned the brigade in

12 order to join the El Mudjahedin Detachment. Do you remember that? Do

13 you remember saying that?

14 A. Yes, individuals did that.

15 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I wanted to know whether the

16 Brigade Command did anything to try and react in the face of these --

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] -- brigade.

19 A. Yes, we did do something about it. Throughout this time, because

20 of various circumstances, we had stockades full of soldiers or fighters

21 who were not disciplined, who infracted [as interpreted] on the

22 discipline. We had the case where the military police of the 306th

23 Brigade, in the course of their duties, killed members of the 306th

24 Brigade who did not abide by the regulations that were in force.

25 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was there any official, formal

Page 7511

1 follow-up to these reactions? Were people punished, sanctioned, steps of

2 which there would be official traces anywhere? I'm still speaking about

3 these people leaving the brigade, only about that.

4 A. We considered those individuals deserters. The military police

5 brought them in detention. Some of them were sanctioned, and they were

6 kept in military detention. But I can't tell you the exact numbers, but

7 there were criminal reports also raised against some of them. And you

8 can check this in the documents of the brigade.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. The

10 answer, as it appears in the transcript, does not reflect what the

11 witness had said. He said that some of them were --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- punished, and disciplinary

14 measures were taken, and here there's no mention of disciplinary mention.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Line 60 --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, would you repeat the answer. Apparently

18 you have not been translated correctly. Could you just repeat the answer

19 that you were giving?

20 A. Yes. All those individuals who deserted the unit we considered

21 as deserters, and different measures were taken against them. Sometimes

22 these measures were disciplinary measures, but there were even criminal

23 reports submitted against some of them, although I couldn't tell you

24 exactly what that number was at this point.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that the correct answer now?

Page 7512

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just one more small thing in

3 this regard, sir.

4 They were arrested -- like they went to the detachment to take

5 those men out, to put them in detention, to punish them?

6 A. No, that would have been very dangerous. I tried to tell you

7 yesterday that up until the autumn of 1993, we did not have uniforms. We

8 could see -- you could see that in the video clip yesterday. On that

9 day, when I spoke outside of that monastery, I came from the brigade. I

10 was at work on that day, but I was dressed in civilian clothing, because

11 we didn't have uniforms. After we've done something, we would go back to

12 our homes. When we call someone up to report to the unit and he does not

13 report, as soon as he would get back to his house, the military police

14 would arrest him; and I mentioned that my colleague --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're five minutes away from the break. Shall we

16 take our break now? We'll take a break and continue answering the

17 question later when you come back. Court adjourned and come back in

18 half.

19 [Technical difficulties]

20 --- Recess taken at 11.56 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.


23 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sorry, I was trying to remember

24 your answer, your last answer.

25 So it was confirmed to me that you could not enter the Mujahedin

Page 7513

1 camp in order to arrest those individuals. There were some who left the

2 Mujahedin Detachment in order to join the brigade, after the sanctions --

3 those steps were taken, were they.

4 A. Probably, but I'm afraid I'm not able to list their names.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you. One last question.

6 With regard to the video clip we saw yesterday, we saw the

7 Guca Gora monastery. You were referring to it in your answer today.

8 Please remind me, was this footage filmed after the slight damage to the

9 monastery, inside the monastery?

10 A. Yes. Actually, as soon as units of the BH Army entered

11 Guca Gora, a number of people, immediately after that -- we entered in

12 the morning, and then in the afternoon a number of men entered the

13 monastery -- or, rather, the yard of the monastery, where there were

14 several vehicles, and they entered to seize those vehicles. And someone

15 used paint that was in the monastery, and the paint was spilled. We

16 tried to clean it up, but we couldn't, because it was permanent paint.

17 As for the equipment in the rooms and in the offices and the

18 organ, there were minor damages.

19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you for this

20 information, but I wanted to know something else.

21 Among the ABiH units, was there also the El Mudjahedin Detachment

22 that took part in the takeover operation of Guca Gora?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Were there individual Mujahedins

25 who would have come from other units, who were at any rate fighting the

Page 7514

1 enemy, the enemy of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

2 A. No, not on those days when we were taking control of Guca Gora.

3 But when defence lines were established below Guca Gora, a certain number

4 of those persons, those foreigners, did enter Guca Gora. A group even

5 settled there. And we discussed this, because the civilian authorities

6 were in charge, but the military police guarded only the monastery. We

7 couldn't guard the whole settlement.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

10 Mr. Husic, I would like to return to an issue that I have raised

11 with you before; namely, the attempts made by the 3rd Corps to somehow

12 put the foreigners -- the foreign fighters under some sort of control.

13 The picture that we have been offered here during this trial is

14 that Mujahedin soldiers entered into Bosnia and Herzegovina and formed

15 small groups here and there, and took part in a more or less coordinated

16 manner with the ABiH in the combat operations. We also heard that one of

17 these groups was stationed in Mehurici and that they were established as

18 a detachment within the 3rd Corps in August 1993, I think it was. But we

19 have also heard that all along, from the very moment these fighters came

20 into the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were a variety of

21 problems. Some of them had to do with the coordination and the

22 cooperation with the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Other problems

23 related to the contacts that these foreign groups had with the local

24 population. Some other problems had to do with, shall I say, civilian

25 crimes committed by these gentlemen, and some other problems again

Page 7515

1 actually had to do with war crimes committed. So we understand that

2 there was or there were all along a number of difficulties in fitting

3 these foreign fighters into -- somehow into cooperation with the army.

4 And my question to you is: What did the 3rd Corps do to bring

5 the situation under the control from the moment they were present, let's

6 say from the month of June 1993 and until the end of the war? Do you

7 have some sort of idea of what was done at the corps level?

8 A. You saw, in the reports I sent as assistant commander from the

9 306th Mountain Brigade, that this was a problem that we repeatedly drew

10 attention to.

11 The Command of the 3rd Corps, regarding the decision to form the

12 detachment, as it was explained to us, was made to put them under their

13 control. However, even after the formation of the detachment, all the

14 foreigners didn't join that detachment. They operated not only as

15 humanitarian organisations outside the detachment, but occasionally

16 certain armed groups would rally locals from various parts of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina and they would act as armed groups.

18 Opposing those armed groups by units of the BH Army would produce

19 tensions which could lead to conflicts between our units and the local

20 population, and this simply could not be overcome. And we said what was

21 the most important reason that the civilians were tied to these people

22 was the humanitarian aid they provided. They had large funds. They

23 supplied clothing and food. They often engaged in arms sales. So they

24 made it possible for the people to get hold of weapons, and these were

25 activities which it is very difficult to eliminate in a situation of war.

Page 7516

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: So you're saying that despite the facts that also

2 the local population felt occasionally intimidated by these gentlemen,

3 despite these problems, the local population nevertheless accepted their

4 presence in the territory because of the advantages that they could get

5 from the foreign fighters; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. And as an illustration of this, allow me to tell you that,

7 among other things, they offered people who joined in marriage on the

8 basis of the Sharia law, they would give them 100 or 200 German Marks as

9 a reward, so that people who may have been living fro 20 or 30 years

10 married, they would again take their marriage vows under the Sharia. And

11 there were many such examples whereby they linked the local populations

12 to themselves, they attracted them.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. So from a military point of view, this

14 must have been a nightmare, because if I were to lead, and I'm not a

15 military leader I might confess right away, but if I were to lead a

16 military operation, and then suddenly in the middle of the whole

17 operation an uncontrolled armed group shows up on the battle scene and

18 interferes in the battle, that might cause confusion and, in fact,

19 danger, and that is -- that would be something that any military

20 commander would seek to avoid, if possible. So how did the 306th

21 Brigade, to start there, how did your brigade seek to deal with this?

22 A. I have to say, first of all, that the proportion of

23 highly-educated inhabitants in the Bila Valley was not more than

24 5 per cent. In the total population, we had five men with certain

25 military know how, the brigade commander who was a lieutenant, the

Page 7517

1 assistant for educational matters, who was a captain, and three guys who,

2 as battalion commanders, were students of military academies, but they

3 interrupted their studies because of the war. All the others in the

4 brigade were civilians.

5 The population of which the brigade consisted had about

6 50 per cent of people with a secondary education, and the rest only had

7 elementary education.

8 Until the autumn of 1993, we wore civilian clothing and weapons

9 that we had purchased ourselves. A very small percentage, maybe some 50

10 rifles, came from the Municipality Territorial Defence Staff. And in

11 view of such a situation, with three or four times more inhabitants in

12 the valley than the regular population, it was a real nightmare. But in

13 view of matters such as food, clothing, weapons, and all these other

14 links that these foreigners had established with the local people,

15 neither we nor the civilian authorities that we brought pressure to bear

16 on could not resolve the situation, because this was the only helping

17 hand that was extended to us as a people in those parts and at that time.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: My question to you was: What did the 306th

19 Brigade Command do in order to reduce danger during the combat

20 operations, danger arising out of the fact that intervention by foreign

21 and unorganised groups might be present at the battle scene?

22 A. We didn't have much opportunity. There was not much we could do,

23 and there was not much that we did. We tried, wherever and whenever

24 possible, through the civilian authorities and in other ways to influence

25 them to correct their behaviour.

Page 7518

1 My section, whose task it was to act politically in the unit and

2 to enter into contact with the political authorities in the social

3 community, did that. But in concrete military terms, to oppose their

4 activities that were at our expense, we didn't have much of a chance to

5 do anything.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Tell us more about the meetings you had with --

7 in the civil sphere in order to try and get a better grasp and control

8 over the situation. What did you actually do?

9 A. A large number of such meetings were held. First of all, we

10 would meet with the Croatian population to try and suppress the

11 propaganda about the Mujahedin and to try and persuade them that they

12 weren't such a threat as the media portrayed it.

13 Secondly, we insisted --

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I interrupt you there. Did the media portray

15 the Mujahedin fighters as a threat in autumn 1993?

16 A. Yes, yes. The media, especially the Croatian media, very early

17 on started talking about the enormous danger as of the new year, that is,

18 the beginning of 1993, and they were saying that the Croatian population

19 of the Bila Valley were threatened by the Mujahedin.

20 In those days, they were not such a major factor, and we

21 persuaded them that units of the BH Army would protect the entire

22 population of the Bila Valley. However, the propaganda intensified with

23 time.

24 JUDGE HARHOFF: You were telling us about the meetings, and I

25 interrupted you, so, please, I would like you to explain to us again the

Page 7519

1 steps that were taken by the 306th Brigade by calling meetings with the

2 civilian and local authorities and representatives of the Mujahedin, I

3 imagine, in order to control -- tell us more about what exactly was done

4 and how it resulted.

5 A. Not much was done. We were repeatedly given promises that

6 they -- or, rather, the part that collaborated with the civilian

7 authorities would prevent such incidents. And then, when another

8 incident occurred, they would disassociate themselves from such an

9 incident so that we didn't have any control over those activities. I do

10 know that when they were in the school and when they complained about our

11 battalion and they wanted our battalion to be removed from the school,

12 and the 306th Brigade refused to do that, they resolutely protested with

13 the civilian authorities, and they abandoned the school. So occasionally

14 they, in collaboration with the civilian authorities, they would bring

15 pressure to bear on us.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Who gave you the assurances?

17 A. I don't quite understand which assurances you're referring to.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry, I was unclear. You told us just a

19 while ago that from time to time, you would get assurances from either

20 the civilian authorities or from the Mujahedin that future incidents

21 would not occur, and I'm just curious to know which -- who gave you those

22 assurances. Would that be local clerics or the Mujahedin themselves?

23 A. The civilian authorities. We required the civilian authorities

24 to take steps, and their response was that without the material aid

25 arriving through the mediation of the Mujahedin, they couldn't survive,

Page 7520

1 but that the Mujahedin had promised them that they would put an end to

2 certain activities which we considered to be bad.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did anyone from the 306th Command ever sit down

4 in a meeting with Mujahedin representatives present?

5 A. I'm not quite sure about that, but possibly, in the period when

6 the El Mujahid Detachment was about to be formed, when these discussions

7 were conducted with them, that someone from the 306th Mountain Brigade

8 may have taken part in those discussions, but I'm not sure. I didn't.

9 If someone did, then it would have been the commander. But they didn't

10 like the commander or any member of the 306th Brigade, because they saw

11 us as a threat to their activities. They had a hostile attitude towards

12 us.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I'm sorry I'm pulling this out, but

14 it's important for us to understand just how it worked out in practice.

15 Let me get back to the issue of your reports to the 3rd Corps

16 Command. You said that you frequently brought the problems to the

17 attention of the 3rd Corps; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: At a later stage, and I know that at a much later

20 stage you, yourself, joined the 3rd Corps, so were you aware of how the

21 3rd Corps dealt with the information that they got? And I would

22 appreciate if you could divide your answer as to what did the 3rd Corps

23 do with the information they got from you -- from the 306th Brigade

24 before you, yourself, were employed with the 3rd Corps, and then after

25 you, yourself, were positioned at the 3rd Corps Command.

Page 7521

1 A. Yes. Well, regarding bodies for morale in the 3rd Corps would

2 receive reports from all the units, including the 306th, and then on the

3 basis of all those reports, they would prepare a summary with the key

4 issues, the issues that they considered to be important would be put in a

5 new report which would then be forwarded to a higher-level command. And

6 at meetings between the Corps Command, the assistant commander for morale

7 would inform the commander and the rest of the Command about factors

8 affecting combat morale, and those reports would include what he

9 considered to be a priority or important from the reports supplied by the

10 subordinate units.

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: But do you know whether, in fact, the information

12 or some of the information that was passed up to the 3rd Corps from the

13 306th Brigade, was that -- information relating to the Mujahedin, was

14 that ever passed on to the superior level of command, which would have

15 been the Supreme Commander, I would imagine? Do you know if any of the

16 information that came from you was ever passed on to the top?

17 A. No, I really don't know that.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: You don't know that for the time you were with

19 the 306th Brigade?

20 A. Yes, yes, when you said I forwarded reports to the Command.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: But what was the situation when you, yourself,

22 were at the 3rd Corps level? Did you then pass on information about the

23 activities and level of cooperation with the Mujahedin to the Supreme

24 Command?

25 A. Yes. The Department for Morale of the Supreme Command was

Page 7522

1 informed about this lack of cooperation by the El Mudjahedin Detachment.

2 However, this was not a problem that anyone seriously addressed at the

3 time.


5 A. I cannot know that. The assistant commanders in the Supreme

6 Command Staff may know that.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: But can I ask you, I mean, was the -- the

8 relations with the Mujahedin, not only the Mujahedin Detachment but also

9 the other Mujahedin groups, was that something that people were talking

10 about at the 306th Brigade level and at the 3rd Corps level on a daily

11 basis, I mean, or did it never come up?

12 A. Yes, it was regularly discussed as a problem, but this was a

13 situation in which, on the one hand, you have all the things coming

14 through humanitarian organisations, and they were numerous, and it was a

15 precondition for our survival, and on the other hand, you have the

16 problems provoked by them. And in view of such a balance of forces, the

17 population was divided, too. The civilian authorities, and especially

18 the MUP, the police, were not satisfied with their activities. They

19 could not control them, and a major problem was that we knew that among

20 them there were a certain number of men who contacted centres outside

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Milan, Vienna, Zagreb, and the Military Security

22 Services did inform corps commands of this. But, on the other hand,

23 everything else that came through humanitarian aid, and as a result of

24 their cooperation with the population, was at the other end. So a

25 decision had to be made, which was really a difficult decision to make.

Page 7523

1 And when yesterday we spoke about the disbanding of the

2 detachment, we saw with what attention and what a vast quantity of

3 problems existed, because a fresh conflict was threatening in Central

4 Bosnia on the eve of the Dayton Accords themselves.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: What are you referring to? "A fresh conflict was

6 threatening in Central Bosnia." Which conflict?

7 A. When the 3rd Corps commander began to suggest to representatives

8 of the El Mujahid Detachment that the detachment needed to be disbanded,

9 they forcefully rejected this. He was informed about the permanent

10 session of the shura within the detachment, and this is a body that

11 actually commanded the unit, and they were receiving orders from the

12 centres in Milan or -- they were in contact with many centres. I cannot

13 know individually which one of them had the most influence on this group.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: My last question is: Did the perception of the

15 military cooperation with the -- between the 3rd Corps and the El Mujahid

16 Detachment change over the years from 1993 to 1995?

17 A. We were hoping that with the forming of a unit, all the armed

18 foreigners would in that way be under control. This didn't happen,

19 however. Certain individual armed groups remained outside the El Mujahid

20 Detachment and continued to create numerous problems.

21 On the other hand, no matter how much we tried to place the

22 El Mujahid Detachment in the system of control and -- command and

23 control, this did not happen until the end of the war, until the

24 detachment was actually disbanded. Our hopes were really illusory.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: So I understand, just to clarify your last

Page 7524

1 answer, that the level of cooperation in military operations was the same

2 from the time when the detachment was established until the end of the

3 war. I mean, my question is: Did it, over time, become easier to

4 cooperate with them, or were they still, as you say, uncontrollable?

5 A. Officially, they were impossible to control. The only way in

6 which a certain number of people were able to have some cooperation or

7 influence was if they personally respected him, if they personally gained

8 trust and got to know that person. Otherwise, no function, no post, no

9 duty improved this relationship in cooperation with them.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. Do you know if any such personal

11 relations were established at any point between officers of the ABiH and

12 officers of the El Mujahid Detachment?

13 A. A number of persons from within the army had more or less

14 influence on them. It was difficult to estimate who had how much

15 influence. There was also a number of representatives of the civilian

16 authorities and also a number of clerics. On the other hand, they

17 attempted an assassination on my colleague, Karalic, who was a

18 theologian, and in respect of certain civilians in the authorities, they

19 referred to them as communists and refused any kind of contact or

20 cooperation with these people. They declared a number of officers as

21 members of the Yugoslav People's Army Intelligence and Security Service,

22 and then there were some people with whom they more or less communicated

23 with a certain degree of trust. But it's difficult to say who had how

24 much influence. Even though I'm a theologian, and I could have been

25 close to them, based on certain attributes, from the first days in

Page 7525

1 Mehurici I had a conflict with them when I began to tell them that there

2 was a large number of individuals among them who were working for foreign

3 services, who were creating problems for us and for them, who were

4 obstructing our fight, and for this reason even my security was in

5 jeopardy for a certain period of time.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, sir.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any re-examination, madam -- I beg your pardon.

8 Questions arising from the questions by the Bench, Madam Vidovic?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very brief ones, Your Honour.

10 Further re-examination by Ms. Vidovic:

11 Q. Please, you talked about the humanitarian assistance that you

12 talked about in response to Judge Harhoff's question, the assistance that

13 these Arabs provided, and you talked about the relationship of the

14 civilian authorities with them. My question is this: What was your

15 understanding of this problem of these foreign fighters, the Mujahedin?

16 Based on that understanding, can you please tell Their Honours, was this

17 a military or a political issue in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 A. It was primarily a political issue, because actually without the

19 humanitarian assistance, it was not possible to feed the population, and

20 this is something that is in the domain of the civilian authorities.

21 Then there are these other activities which, to a certain degree, touched

22 upon the military units in certain parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

Page 7526

1 Further cross-examination by Mr. Neuner:

2 Q. Good morning again.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's in the afternoon now, Mr. Neuner.


5 Q. Good afternoon, then. I have a question in relation to what you

6 have said a moment ago when you were asked about Judge Harhoff about

7 personal relations which were established between the army or members in

8 the army and members of the El Mudjahedin Detachment, and you said a

9 number of persons from within the army had more or less influence on

10 them. Could you name those persons, please?

11 A. It would be difficult. Among the officers in the Army of Bosnia

12 and Herzegovina, there were a number of people who would carry out the

13 practices required by them of Islam, so this was the first thing that

14 they would look at.

15 Secondly, there was a number of persons who -- in some segments

16 who -- well, this is questionable, but they considered them to have

17 religious signs in the conduct or in the way they looked, for example,

18 their beards or how they behaved towards people, but they actually made

19 their own assessments. I know that they did take into account the

20 opinions of the 3rd Corps commander to a certain degree, but, on the

21 other hand, it would happen that they would completely ignore or refuse

22 to follow his orders.

23 So it's hard to say this precisely. They would decide who, when,

24 and to what extent they would cooperate or listen to any particular

25 person.

Page 7527

1 Q. Could you name the 3rd Corps commander you're referring to?

2 A. The commander of the 3rd Corps was Mr. Sakib Mahmuljin.

3 Q. Who else, other than Sakib Mahmuljin, can you recall?

4 A. I can remember all the people who were in the Corps Command, but

5 not that they were able to cooperate with the members of the

6 El Mudjahedin Detachment, just like he couldn't cooperate with them all

7 the time. How do you mean "who else"?

8 Q. For those who had a relationship with them, whom they talked to.

9 A. I don't know. I wasn't with them to be able to have that sort of

10 insight.

11 Q. Then this is page 69 and 70, you were asked about danger which

12 may have occurred when combat operations were going on and certain

13 foreigners were either on their own or in a certain coordination

14 participating. Could you tell me, were there occasions of friendly fire

15 in cases that the Mujahedin or members of the El Mudjahedin Detachment

16 were involved?

17 A. I cannot answer that question. I don't know. There were

18 casualties during the war, or combat when there were, or El Mujahedin

19 present or not. We were an untrained army, so it's true that we were

20 killed not only by enemy fire but also from friendly fire. But as time

21 went on, and the more we became like an army, the fewer casualties we did

22 have.

23 Q. Were you ever informed about an occasion of friendly fire coming

24 from the participation of foreigners in combat on the side of the ARBiH?

25 A. Well, it's hard for me to pinpoint such cases, but as to the fact

Page 7528

1 that there were conflicts within the units of the Army of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina in combat or out of combat, it's true, but this is something

3 that the military police dealt with, not the morale department. But we

4 did receive reports about things like that.

5 Q. So, in essence, you don't know?

6 A. No.

7 Q. This is on page 71 of today's transcript. You were talking about

8 orders to the shura of the El Mudjahedin Detachment from centres in

9 Milan. Were you ever --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it orders to the shura or orders from the

11 shura?

12 MR. NEUNER: I believe -- I can clarify, Your Honour.

13 Q. Could you explain again what you meant by orders in relation to

14 the shura? And I think you were referring to centres outside Bosnia.

15 A. There was a possibility that regardless of the signing of the

16 Dayton Accords, this unit could refuse to disband and could decide to

17 confront the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities and the Army of the Republic

18 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 Q. So you're referring to the time period in or after December 1995,

20 are you?

21 A. Yes. It's a longer period when there were intimations that this

22 detachment had to be or needed to be disbanded and that they had to leave

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 Q. I'm just wondering, were you ever participating in such a meeting

25 of the shura of the El Mudjahedin Detachment?

Page 7529

1 A. No. This was their internal body which we know existed and which

2 actually commanded that unit.

3 Q. I understand that this was their internal body, but my question

4 is whether you were ever participating?

5 A. Could I?

6 Q. So the answer is "no"?

7 A. How could I be a participant in that body? No.

8 Q. I'm just asking for the basis on which you're saying that this

9 shura has received or may have received orders from abroad.

10 A. Based on the fact that the military security services, after

11 numerous complaints about all the activities of the El Mujahid

12 Detachment, began to regularly monitor their activities and to inform the

13 Corps Command and the commander about those activities, including what I

14 was talking about a little bit earlier.

15 Q. And did you ever see such an order from anyone?

16 A. No. Never, no.

17 Q. We were just talking about the Military Security Service on page

18 79. Could you clarify on which level this Military Security Service was

19 who obtained that information?

20 A. The 3rd Corps Command.

21 Q. How could the Military Security Service of the 3rd Corps Command

22 obtain such information?

23 A. I cannot explain that to you, because I don't know the manner in

24 which the Military Security Service gets this information. They had

25 their own methods of work. They had listening devices. So I never

Page 7530

1 really had much dealings with these kind of activities or methods, so I

2 really cannot give you an answer.

3 Q. I understand the basis is that you had some conversations with

4 members in the 3rd Corps about activities going on in the El Mudjahedin

5 Detachment. Was that information also coming from the General Staff

6 Security Administration?

7 A. What would come from the Security Administration from the General

8 Staff would be addressed to the corps security organs, so I really

9 couldn't see or have any information about their activities. All I knew

10 was that part that the 3rd Corps assistant commander for security talked

11 about at the Corps Command meetings. As for the sources of his

12 information, he never referred to them, and I don't know anything about

13 that.

14 Q. You're referring to the assistant commander for security of the

15 3rd Corps. Could you name him?

16 A. At the time, this was Ekrem Alihodzic. Before that, it was

17 Ramiz Dugalic. During my term of office, it was Mr. Alihodzic. I think

18 there was somebody even before Mr. Dugalic, but I don't know who it was.

19 Q. You were referring to meetings at which the 3rd Corps assistant

20 commander for security briefed. Could you tell me in what time frame

21 these meetings took place?

22 A. This was in late 1995. This was an activity that lasted for a

23 while. It was not just a matter of one, two, or three meetings.

24 Towards the end of 1995, the problem that was being resolved

25 mainly by the 3rd Corps was the problem of disbanding the El Mujahid

Page 7531

1 Detachment. The reasons and the way of -- for disbanding and the way to

2 do this in the most painless way was something that the 3rd Corps Command

3 was working on.

4 Q. I want to come back to -- I want to leave that topic now and come

5 back to what Judge Harhoff had asked you earlier. It was about attempts

6 to establish communications with the Mujahedin or the El Mudjahedin

7 Detachment. And I'm referring now to 1993, because that's how I

8 understood Judge Harhoff had asked about it.

9 Could we have document PT1543 shown on the screen.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we have document PT1543, can you tell us

11 what you want us to do with document PT6253?

12 MR. NEUNER: I must apologise. I am at this point in time not

13 aware --

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It has not been admitted.

15 MR. NEUNER: Is this the testimony in the Hadzihasanovic and

16 Kubura case?

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's correct.

18 MR. NEUNER: If Your Honours prefer that this is being

19 admitted --

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your Honours are not leading any witness.

21 MR. NEUNER: Yes. We would take the position that the relevant

22 portions have been read into the record, and therefore we would not move

23 to admit it.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

25 Madam Vidovic, you were standing up.

Page 7532

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just now like

2 to draw the attention to the following: Mr. Neuner, the Prosecutor, is

3 now using the opportunity to continue the cross-examination on those

4 portions that he believes were not covered, and I don't see how,

5 especially how this last question arose from the questions of

6 Judge Harhoff.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm trying to check the question you are referring

10 to.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think, if the page

12 is still there, it's page 80, line 24-25.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: On our screens, we are on page 20. But let me

14 tell you, what I do have here is that he says:

15 "I want to leave the topic now and come back to what

16 Judge Harhoff asked you about earlier. It was about attempts to

17 establish communications with the Mujahedin or the El Mujahid Detachment,

18 and I'm referring now to 1993 because that's how I understood

19 Judge Harhoff had asked about it."

20 Could we have document PT1543 shown on the screen. I'm not aware

21 of a question having been put at that stage.

22 So when you say you don't understand how the last question put

23 doesn't relate to -- how it relates to what Judge Harhoff had said, I

24 don't know which question you are referring to.

25 I would understand that PT1543 becomes a completely new document.

Page 7533

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I had in mind this

2 part of the question which says that there were attempts to establish

3 communication with the El Mudjahedin Detachment in the course of 1993.

4 I think that this is something that was elaborated, and it's not clear to

5 me how this can arise from the question of Judge Harhoff.

6 However, I withdraw my objection, and we can look at the

7 document.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic.

9 Mr. Neuner.

10 MR. NEUNER: Just to explain, I understood Judge Harhoff to

11 inquire in attempts by the civilian or the military authorities in

12 communicating with the El Mudjahedin Detachment, and this document which

13 we see on the screen is from the 11th of August, 1993.

14 Could we maybe -- it's called: "Information on factors affecting

15 the combat operations and units." Could we maybe go for a second to the

16 signature on the last page to see who authored it.

17 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

18 A. Yes. This is my signature.

19 Q. I'm interested in a portion of this document which is, in

20 English, on page 4, and in B/C/S we can stay on this page. It's directly

21 above number 4, the last paragraph above number 4. The entire paragraph

22 or the entire section is referred to as the situation in the area of

23 responsibility of the 306th Mountain Brigade. And it is mentioned here

24 in the last paragraph:

25 "An agreement was reached that the relations among units in our

Page 7534

1 area of responsibility should finally be regulated."

2 Could I ask you, did you participate in this agreement?

3 A. No.

4 Q. But you're reporting about it?

5 A. This is a report or information for subordinate units that was

6 drafted on the basis of news items in the media or items from the media,

7 which is what we discussed this morning.

8 Q. Can I just ask you, because in the next sentence there's several

9 units mentioned, among others, El Jihad. You referred several times to

10 El Jihad. Is this the unit which was based in Poljanice?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Under the command of ...

13 A. No one's command.

14 Q. But if there is an agreement, who would have authority from that

15 unit to enter into an agreement?

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. This is

18 inviting the witness to speculate, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

20 MR. NEUNER: If the witness doesn't know, he should just say so.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not responding to the objection.

22 MR. NEUNER: I did not try to invite the witness to speculate. I

23 was just interested in whether he has knowledge about this part. And if

24 he doesn't have knowledge, he may say so. Otherwise, I can withdraw the

25 question.

Page 7535

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Put the question.


3 Q. Could you tell me who, within the El Jihad, had authority to

4 enter into an agreement on or around the 11th of August, 1993?

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic is standing up again.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, another objection, the

7 same objection to this question. It really calls for speculation on the

8 part of the witness.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I had ruled that the question may be put.

10 Maybe this question needs to be put differently, Mr. Neuner, if you do

11 want an answer to it. Who, on behalf of this El Jihad entered this

12 agreement?


14 Q. Would you please answer that question?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Could you tell me, you got this information from the media, from

17 which media did you get it?

18 A. The Travnik Radio. Most frequently, we listened to this station,

19 but also some other Croatian forces, and we prepared this information for

20 the subordinate fighters. And here, this is a good demonstration of how

21 bothered we were by this unregulated relationship, and we wanted to show

22 the fighters that we were going to do something about it and demanded of

23 the political authorities to define definitively the areas through which

24 they could have passage and so on. But this is from the radio,

25 information taken from the radio.

Page 7536

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Husic, this paragraph that you are being

2 referred to cannot come from the radio. This is something that took

3 place within the army. You're telling us that it was agreed, there was

4 an agreement reached, that relations among units in your area of

5 responsibility should be finally regulated, so that can't come from the

6 radio. It should come from within the army. And, in fact, I'll tell you

7 which parts of the army: The 7th Muslim Brigade, the 314th Mountain

8 Brigade or Motorised Brigade, rather, the 17th something, something, and

9 El Jihad. Those are the parties to the agreement. This cannot come from

10 the radio.

11 Do you agree with me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with you.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: So let's just not refer to the radio when dealing

14 with this paragraph, because this is action that is being -- this action

15 may be taken based on something heard from the radio, but this paragraph

16 doesn't refer to anything that is heard from the radio. It refers to

17 actions that are being taken within the army.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may proceed.


21 Q. Would you agree that the nature of such an agreement is

22 sensitive?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if it would be recorded over the radio, it would mean that

25 the HVO could probably listen to it and would thereby get an advantage?

Page 7537

1 A. This is information that was forwarded exclusively to the

2 fighters, members of the 306th Mountain Brigade, and the task of the

3 organs for morale, information, propaganda and religious affairs, which I

4 headed, was not only to work with information that had been checked out

5 first, but it was also something that was needed, that the fighters

6 expected to get, and that impaired the morale, so these were things that

7 would be suggested from our service.

8 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask that the document please be admitted.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it

10 please be given an exhibit number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become

12 Exhibit 1215.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

14 MR. NEUNER: I want to show you -- okay, first of all, before it

15 disappears, here is mentioning of -- in this paragraph of a meeting with

16 the commander of the 3rd Corps and of the Bosanska Krajina OG, and the

17 commander of other units.

18 Q. Do you know anything about this meeting?

19 A. This is a meeting, and it states so clearly here. It was a

20 meeting that was about to happen, that was announced. I don't know

21 whether it actually was held and whether all the results that were set

22 forth here, that we wanted to include in this information, whether they

23 actually produced them.

24 MR. NEUNER: If I could have Exhibit 257 being shown. Before it

25 comes up, it's a document from the 20th of August, 1993, entitled:

Page 7538

1 "Delivery of information on military conscripts."

2 Q. We see here, the first line of that note from Mr. Adilovic,

3 refers to a meeting on the 9th of August. Were Mr. Adilovic, as a

4 representative of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, attended a meeting in

5 Krpeljici at the 306th Mountain --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really can't see how

8 this question arises from Judge Harhoff's question or any other Judge's

9 questions.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Neuner.

11 MR. NEUNER: I'm prepared to withdraw the question and the

12 document.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

14 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask -- because at the end of the

15 re-examination by my learned colleague the issue of the statement taking

16 process last week was mentioned, the Prosecution had so far no

17 opportunity to respond to what was said about the statement taking

18 process, could I ask leave by Your Honours to ask a few questions to this

19 witness?

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response, Madam Vidovic?

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour.

22 Of course, this does not arise from your questions, but from my

23 questions, and this kind of procedure is not something that is -- that

24 can be foreseen. But he will have an opportunity to answer in detail on

25 this issue, and it's very probably that we will address the Judges panel

Page 7539

1 on this issue in a while, and he will have the opportunity to address it

2 then.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do I understand you to say you object to the

4 application for the leave?

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. --

8 MR. MUNDIS: I apologise, Your Honours.

9 Before the Chamber renders a decision, I would simply telegraph

10 that Mrs. Vidovic has discussed this issue with me, and I do anticipate

11 that it will be raised. I would suggest that if we could put a few

12 questions to this witness and perhaps allow Mrs. Vidovic further

13 re-examination following that, we very well could be in a situation, Your

14 Honours, where issues are raised concerning the taking of the statement

15 of this witness. And if we don't -- if we aren't allowed to put some

16 questions to the witness concerning that issue, we will then be in a

17 situation where either we will have to be simply indicating to Your

18 Honours what happened during the course of the taking of this witness's

19 statement, without the benefit of hearing from the witness, himself, on

20 that point. And I don't want to be in a situation where we're then

21 having to bring in an investigator or Mr. Neuner to describe to Your

22 Honours what happened when this witness's statement was taken, when in

23 fact we have the witness sitting here right now, who can testify about

24 that.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I see you're on your feet, madam.

Page 7540

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me say this: Your Honour,

2 first of all, I did say something that did not find its way into the

3 transcript, that this was not something that arises from your questions

4 and is not envisaged by the Rules. In any case, I would like Mr. Neuner,

5 as a member of the team that had interviewed this witness, not be the

6 person who will question this witness on the interview taking from this

7 witness.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me be clear I understand you, Madam Vidovic.

9 Are you now saying you are no longer -- can I just make sure I

10 understand you, madam. Are you saying you are no longer objecting to the

11 application for leave to ask questions arising from your questions,

12 provided those questions are not asked by Mr. Neuner? Is that what you

13 are saying?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. My objection is general. I

15 wouldn't want any questions to be asked, if you allow me, but I also

16 object to Mr. Neuner asking these questions, because he was one of the

17 persons who was involved as one of the interviewers.

18 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I could maybe find a way out or offer

19 something.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's past time for breaking. Maybe we should deal

22 with this question tomorrow morning. What is tomorrow, our time of

23 sitting? We're sitting in the afternoon tomorrow.

24 Yes, Court will adjourn to tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the

25 afternoon.

Page 7541

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of March,

3 2008, at 2.15 p.m.