1 Tuesday, 25 March 2008
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 Madam Registrar, can you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-83-T, The
9 Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 Could we have appearances, please, starting with the Prosecution.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
13 Honours, learned counsel and everyone in and around the courtroom. Daryl
14 Mundis and Kyle Wood for the Prosecution assisted by Alma Imamovic-Ivanov
15 our case manager.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Mundis.
17 Yes, and for the Defence.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour, good
19 afternoon to my colleagues from the Prosecution. I'm Vasvija Vidovic and
20 Nicholas Robson for the Defence of General Delic with our case manager
21 Lana Deljkic.
22 Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I believe there is some
24 housekeeping that somebody wants to raise.
25 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would like to
2 draw your attention to two brief issues. The first issue relates again
3 to the material falling under Rule 68; and the second issue has to do
4 with the material from the Italian collection.
5 One of the issues that the Trial Chamber considered and is still
6 considering and that the Defence has raised is the issue of other Arab
7 units involved in the events which are in the charges of this indictment
8 and is specifically the group Abu Zubeir. The Defence understands the
9 significance of this group, and in the course of the preparation for this
10 case, it has insisted on receiving all the material that the Prosecutor
11 had at his disposal, especially those relating to Rule 68 and also those
12 relating to Rule 66 (B).
13 On the 27th of June, 2007, as part of a batch of documents that
14 was forwarded to us under number 49, the Prosecutor, in keeping with Rule
15 68, specifically for the folder of General Delic forwarded the results
16 after the search that was done by ES for the Abu Zubeir group. After
17 this the Prosecutor forwarded various materials in relation to or under
18 Rule 68 in batches. On the 18th of March, after the completion of the
19 testimony of witness DV 4 and you will recall, Your Honour that is
20 correct this witness, among other things, testified specifically about
21 the role of the Abu Zubeir unit. He testified that morning and on the
22 same day in the afternoon we received a large batch of documents that
23 related to Abu Zubeir. As one of the documents within that batch, Your
24 Honour, was document 04174457 consisting of three pages which had in no
25 way before the moment that we received it then forwarded to the Defence
1 it was not in the EDS system it was not in the specific folder nor was it
2 in any other way forwarded to us while we were preparing this witness.
3 Why am I mentioning this document, Your Honour. I am mentioning
4 it because DV 4 and also witness Zilkic specifically testified about
5 something that mention is made of in this document. DV 4, if you recall,
6 Your Honour, was the leader of one of the units. In this document
7 specifically the mention is made that the Abu Zubeir group had the
8 support of this unit. This is a fact that I wasn't aware of, obviously
9 the Prosecutor was and instead of forwarding the document to me a few
10 days before --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say Abu Zubeir had the support of this unit --
12 or can you repeat that part. I'm not quite sure who had the support of
13 which unit.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps it
15 didn't enter the transcript. Abu Zubeir, according to this document, had
16 the support of the unit at the head of which was the witness who had
17 testified here on Friday. Now, this fact was something that the Defence
18 had no knowledge of. The Prosecutor obviously did know about this,
19 because we received this document in the afternoon after his testimony.
20 What is also of great concern to the Defence and a very important issue
21 that Defence is dealing wit, and that the Defence explored with several
22 witnesses is that in this document specific mention is made of the fact
23 that the Abu Zubeir unit in the combat operations that it participated in
24 had the support of the Asim Camgic unit. I believe, Your Honour, that
25 you will recall that this unit, unit Asim Camgic was subordinate to
1 witness Asim Zilkic. It is certain, Your Honour, that had I this
2 document, I would had -- at that time I would have asked some additional
3 questions to the witness Zilkic and I believe the court would have
4 probably have done the same thing.
5 Your Honour, I would like to draw your attention and I appeal to
6 you at this point because I have been informed that the Prosecutor has
7 submitted a reply to our motion under Rule 68. I would appreciate the
8 Trial Chamber making their ruling on this motion, because we will find
9 ourselves in a position where we have found ourselves in, that our
10 witnesses have already gone, been here and gone, and we have been unable
11 to show them, to confront them with the documents under Rule 68 so that
12 they can make a comment on them.
13 Your Honour, I have to repeat now, we are considering the
14 situation very seriously, because this is something that may affect the
15 entire proceedings. The trial will not be fair if we are unable to have
16 the documents that are exculpatory and to use them. This will not only
17 be our problem alone but also a problem that this Trial Chamber will have
18 to deal with. That is one issue relating to Rule 68.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you go any further. Can we deal this
20 and finish with it first and before I ask Mr. Mundis to stand up, can I
21 just spell this name for the Stenographer because I see every time it is
22 mentioned it is not being typed in here. It's Abu Zubeir, A-b-u, next
23 word, Z-u-b-e-i-r, Abu Zubeir.
24 Okay. Mr. Mundis, any response.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. No, we don't have any
1 specific response. We filed a response to the Defence motion. We've
2 also submitted a letter to them. I believe that was copied to the
3 Chamber's legal officer. At this point in time we have nothing further
4 to add on this specific document or on this particular issue.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I for one have not seen the letter that you have
6 copied to the Chamber. But over and above the motion, the motion about
7 Rule 68 disclosures, Madam Vidovic is raising this issue, I'm not quite
8 sure -- well, I guess the gist of what she is saying is that she's
9 getting documents after her witnesses have testified, and are you able to
10 say whether or not she will get these documents in time henceforth?
11 MR. MUNDIS: I will indicate as I've said before that we are in
12 the process of undertaking a top-to-bottom review including running some
13 additional and new searchs. I'm unable at this point on my feet here to
14 answer the question as to which specific search resulted in the
15 particular document that Madam Vidovic has mentioned. I also indicated
16 at the pre-Defence conference that we would run ISU searchs on Defence
17 witness names in the order that those were to be scheduled and it is
18 possible that the particular document that Madam Vidovic has mentioned
19 was in response to one of those ISU searches and I have indicated, the
20 more advance notice we have of the actual calendar, the quicker we'll be
21 able to get those results. I can assure everyone in this courtroom that
22 under no circumstances is the Office of the Prosecutor sitting on
23 documents and waiting in terms of timing of disclosing them under Rule 68
24 for any kind of tactical or strategic advantage. Obviously Rule 68 is a
25 serious issue. I have stated that before here in this courtroom. It is
1 obviously an ongoing obligation that will continue until this institution
2 closes and probably even beyond that date. So the fact that Rule 68
3 material is being disclosed now is par for the course. We will continue
4 disclosing Rule 68 material as that material is identified and/or as that
5 material comes into the possession of the Prosecutor.
6 With respect, Your Honour, to the letter that I referred to, that
7 is attached to our filing of the 20th of March as Annex A to that filing
8 and I understand because of the holiday weekend I'm not sure if that was
9 distributed until today but I did sign off that on I believe it was
10 Thursday, the 20th and it was filed after hours electronically so that to
11 the extent that has not yet been distributed, it should be in the process
12 of being distributed today.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 Madam Vidovic, your request is that the Trial Chamber rules on
15 the Rule 68 motion. You're not asking for any ruling now on what you
16 have just said, as I understand you.
17 Okay. Thank you very much, Madam Vidovic. We will do our best
18 to get to that as soon as we possibly can. We always try to give our
19 rulings or decisions as quickly as possible after all filings have been
20 filed. And I can assure you that we will do the same.
21 Okay. You may proceed then to the next point, Italian material,
22 Madam Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, just one sentence
24 as concerns this issue, I would also like this to be on the record, this
25 problem, because I have to reply at least in one sentence to what
1 Mr. Mundis said.
2 In this case it was not about the name of the witness. If -- so
3 that an ISU search of the name would produce the document. No, it was
4 about the Abu Zubeir group and this has been the subject of this trial
5 throughout this time and I would just like to point to this Chamber that
6 this may have a significant effect on the proceedings, and everything
7 that the Prosecutor failed to forward to the Defence and the Defence was
8 unable to use, I would apply for each document, such document to be used
9 and that the Trial Chamber make a ruling in favour of the accused on
10 those documents.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic -- yes, Mr. Mundis.
12 MR. MUNDIS: If I could, I do have just one additional point or
13 two additional points.
14 Prior to this trial commencing, I met with Madam Vidovic and we
15 agreed upon pre-trial Rule 68 terms which included Abu Zubeir spelled in
16 two variations of that name, one being Z-u-b-e-i-r, and the second
17 spelling being Abu Zubair, Z-u-b-a-i-r. It is my understanding that the
18 document which was just turned over a week ago had the spelling
19 Z-u-b-e-j-r. Again, we have the same problems in terms much conducting
20 electronic searchs that many of us in dealing with this type of case have
21 had in terms of the way the names are spelled and/or transliterated from
22 Arabic into the Bosnian language and the way those names are spelled in
23 documents, so that is a problem that neither the Defence nor the
24 Prosecution fully appreciated because although we gave two various of
25 spelling on the name Abu Zubeir, we did not anticipate or expect that
1 there would be an alternative spelling, b-e-j-r, and that's the document
2 that was turned up in this most recent search.
3 Turning to the more general issue the Defence has raised, we have
4 indicated both in our response to their motion and I indicated orally I
5 believe it was last week that in the event the Defence seeks to tender
6 some or all of these documents from the bar table, the Prosecution was
7 not likely to object to that, so if the Defence has a list of documents
8 that they would propose tendering that was a direct result of delayed
9 Rule 68 disclosure, I would be happy to sit down and discusses that with
10 the Defence or if she were to file a motion or send me a letter we will
11 respond accordingly, but again I'm not going to stand here and indicate
12 that we would oppose the Defence tendering such documents from the bar
13 table assuming that they were from this collection of material that was
14 recently disclosed in which the Defence believes constitutes Rule 68
15 material. So I want to make that very clear as I have in the past so
16 that there is absolutely no confusion about that point.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Mundis. I think we have heard all
18 that we can hear about this issue.
19 Can we move on to the Italian material, please.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just recall the
21 fact that the Trial Chamber, upon our motion, issued an order to the
22 government of Italy on the 23rd of January, 2008, that's two months ago.
23 We reiterated this issue, if you recall, at the 65 (G) conference exactly
24 a month and Your Honours had undertaken then to take further steps to
25 have the government of Italy comply with the order. I must draw your
1 attention to the fact that to date, after numerous interventions made
2 before the government of Italy to get these documents, although the
3 Prosecutor did not have any such problem, they said they wrote a letter,
4 investigators went to Italy and just received the materials they wanted.
5 That being so I cannot understand that the government of a country who is
6 a member of the United Nations and a signatory of the UN charter of human
7 rights completely the requests of this Defence team and does not even
8 react to the orders of the Trial Chamber. I must kindly ask Your Honour
9 to do what you indicated you would do earlier, namely, take further steps
10 to make the government of Italy produce these documents we believe are
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Vidovic.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Madam Vidovic, thank you so much, we did
15 hear what you said and we promise you the Chamber will look in the matter
16 as soon as possible.
17 Is that all that you have to say?
18 Anything from your side?
19 Can we call the witness, please.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Defence calls
21 Major-General Vahid Karavelic.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon, sir.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May you please make the declaration the usher will
1 show you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: VAHID KARAVELIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated. Thank
7 you so much.
8 Madam Vidovic.
9 Examination by Ms. Vidovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General Karavelic.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Before I start with the questioning, I would like to ask you to
13 speak slowly so that the record reflect exactly every word.
14 Have you understood?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For the record, would you tell us your full name, please.
17 A. My name is Vahid Karavelic.
18 Q. Any nicknames?
19 A. Vaha.
20 Q. Would you please repeat?
21 A. V-a-h-a, Vaha.
22 Q. Thank you. When and where were you born?
23 A. 7th of April, 1956, in Brezovik, Visoko municipality, Bosnia and
25 Q. Your occupation?
1 A. Former officer, currently retired.
2 Q. Which schooling have you completed?
3 A. The Military Academy, for ground forces in Belgrade; and then the
4 school of material management in the USA; and post-graduate studies in
5 Sarajevo, the University of Sarajevo.
6 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber, if you had testified before
7 this Tribunal before, and if so, in what cases?
8 A. Yes, I did testify before. In the case of Stanislav Galic; in
9 the Dragomir Milosevic case; in the Sefer Halilovic case; and in the
10 Hadzihasanovic and Kubura case.
11 Q. General, kindly tell us did you appear as a Prosecution witness
12 or a Defence witness in the cases in which you testified.
13 A. In the Galic and Dragomir Milosevic case I appeared as a
14 Prosecution witness. In the Hadzihasanovic case, I was subpoenaed as a
15 witness of the Court and in the Hadzihasanovic and Kubura case I appeared
16 as a military expert.
17 Q. You seem to have said that in the Hadzihasanovic case you
18 appeared as a witness of the Court and in a different capacity in the
19 same case and that you were subpoenaed. In which case were you
21 A. In the Sefer Halilovic case.
22 Q. Very well. Let me ask you where were you serving in 1990 and
24 A. I was a member of the Yugoslav People's Army serving in Slovenia,
25 more precisely, the city of Ljubljana.
1 Q. Where did the beginning of the war find you and did you at any
2 moment join the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
3 A. When the war started in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was there, and
4 I was a member. In fact, I joined the Territorial Defence, later the BiH
5 army on the 6th of April, 1992.
6 Q. What position did you occupy in April 1992?
7 A. Yes, I was one of the first to be appointed commander in that new
8 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, commander of the District
9 Staff of Territorial Defence of Tuzla.
10 Q. Thank you. What rank did you have when you left the army of
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
12 A. Major-General.
13 Q. Before the war, were you a member of any political organisation?
14 A. I was a member of the Patriotic League of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. What were your duties in the Territorial Defence? In fact you
16 told us that. What were your duties in the army of Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina, if any?
18 A. After I was exchanged, I became one of the operative officers in
19 the Main Staff of the BH army, and I did that until the 1st of September,
20 1992. From that time until July 1993, I was assistant commander of the
21 1st corps of the BH army.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Excuse me. When were you exchanged? When were
23 you exchanged?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was exchanged on the 13th of May,
25 1992, in Sarajevo.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exchanged from what to what?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used to be commander of the
3 District Staff of the Territorial Defence of Tuzla in April, when the war
4 began. That's when I was captured by the enemy. That is the former
5 Yugoslav People's Army. They took me to Belgrade. Put me in the prison
6 of Sremska Mitrovica and then I got lucky. First I was sentenced to
7 death but then I was returned to Sarajevo by helicopter in order to be
8 exchanged against a large number of their officers who had been captured
9 by the defenders of the city of Sarajevo.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I was
12 intending to clarify this.
13 Q. Witness, you told us that for a while you were assistant
14 commander of the 1st Corps of the BiH. After that did you discharge any
15 other duties?
16 A. After that position, beginning with July 1993 until August 1995,
17 I was commander of the 1st Corps of the BH army. And after that I took
18 up the position of chief of operations. Later it became the
19 administration for planning and operations in the army of the BH
20 Federation, and I remained in that post until I was retired in 2004.
21 Q. Thank you. At the beginning of your testimony you mentioned that
22 in 1990 you were serving in Slovenia. Could you explain why you were
23 transferred to Bosnia and Herzegovina?
24 A. I was transferred to Bosnia and Herzegovina because all the units
25 of the Yugoslav People's Army were withdrawing from the territory of
1 Slovenia and even Croatia. They were withdrawing to Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina, to areas with a majority Serb population.
3 Q. Do you remember to which area of Bosnia and Herzegovina you
4 arrived then?
5 A. With my unit and my military assets, I came to Zenica, in the
6 central part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the 20th of August, 1991.
7 Q. You explained that the Yugoslav People's Army withdraw from
8 Slovenia and Croatia. Do you remember what happened to the weaponry of
9 the Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA?
10 A. As the units were withdrawing from Slovenia and Croatia, all the
11 military equipment and assets of the JNA were being pulled out as well
12 and taken to Bosnia and Herzegovina. With my unit, I got stationed in
13 Zenica, and a large amount of assets, 250 military vehicles, 13 trains
14 and many other transports of weaponry were taken to Kalnik, close to
16 Q. Do you remember what happened to those weapons?
17 A. For the most part, those weapons were distributed to the units
18 formed by Serbian politicians, comprising of Serbs in Serb villages. I
19 also believe that any surplus of weaponry was destroyed.
20 Q. Do you recall the situation in terms of weapons as regards the
21 non-Serb population?
22 A. At that time since I could foretell what will follow and since I
23 was in Bosnia and Herzegovina I was quite amazed at the situation that
24 the non-Serb population of Bosnia and Herzegovina found itself in. They
25 had nothing whatsoever apart from hunting rifles.
1 Q. What was the position of the Security Council of the UN,
2 concerning the process of arming in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
3 A. Of course the Security Council of the UN, as far as I can recall,
4 on the 25th of September, 1991, pronounced a resolution number 713,
5 ordering any further transport of military equipment and weapons in the
6 entire territory of the former Yugoslavia.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, prohibiting any
8 further transport.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show video number
10 36 to the witness at this moment.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. General Karavelic, I'd like you to -- to ask you the following.
14 Can you provide any comment concerning the ratio mentioned in the footage
15 and the amount of weaponry?
16 A. I have seen this footage countless times, even during the war,
17 all of the footage was made by the Bosnia-Herzegovina Television. I
18 believe it is completely authentic, and it fully reflects the situation
19 as it existed at the time in Bosnia-Herzegovina, although I believe it to
20 have been even far more severe.
21 Q. Concerning this footage, I wanted to ask you the following. You
22 heard that the arms embargo was mentioned and you heard that there was a
23 UN resolution in place concerning the embargo itself. Who was the
24 embargo -- who did the embargo hit the most?
25 A. The embargo only hit the forces loyal to the government of the
1 internationally recognised Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which, in
2 turn, means that most of its population were Bosnians, or rather,
3 Bosniaks as well as Croats and Serbs who were loyal to the government of
5 The Serb forces and the Croat forces were not damaged by the
6 embargo, since they had sufficient weaponry at their disposal. They also
7 enjoyed the support from Belgrade and Zagreb respectively.
8 Q. I would like to stay with the embargo a bit longer.
9 In your view, did it have -- did the embargo have any impact on
10 the rest of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina until its very end?
11 A. That embargo had a lot of influence upon the war, because at the
12 very outset of the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, the aggressor
13 had enormous quantities of weaponry and equipment whereas those defending
14 the country were basically unarmed.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to tender this
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, just before we tender, can we just
18 play it once -- one more time. Not all of it. Let's just play it and I
19 will ask you to stop where I have a question.
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.
21 [Videotape played]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stop.
23 Earlier we saw TV SA. Now it says HTV. You say which television
24 channel is this.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croatian Television.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the Republic of Croatia.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought earlier in answer to a question by
4 Madam Vidovic you said it was Bosnia-Herzegovina Television. Was that a
5 mistake, or did I mishear?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did say that most of the
7 footage was made by Bosnia-Herzegovina Television. However, I still
8 believe this footage to have been shown on Bosnia-Herzegovina television,
9 probably Croatia television carried it as well. Therefore, I don't know
10 where this particular copy was taken from.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: But who photographed this? Who took this footage
12 life on the ground, your knowledge, if you do know. Was it the Bosnian
13 television and then it was played by the Croatian television or was it
14 taken by the Croatian television and then copied by the Bosnian
15 television, which is which?
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Where is it from?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is difficult for me to tell you
18 precisely. I have some understanding of the process. Either of the TV
19 stations could have done that. I don't know where this particular
20 footage was broadcast. That is the issue at hand.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may proceed,
22 Madam Vidovic.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, have a look at this still --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Let us try and clarify one detail, Your Honour.
3 Do you recognise the still? Is this a town that you know?
4 A. This still shows a mosque being hit. I believe it was the
5 Sokolje mosque in a neighbourhood of Sarajevo.
6 Q. Thank you for the clarification.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender the
8 footage now.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video becomes the exhibit
12 number 1322.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. General, you said that at the beginning of the war you commanded
17 the TO District Staff for Tuzla. Briefly, briefly, tell us how TO units
18 were formed; that is, the TO of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
19 A. I can put it in a single sentence. They were formed from grass
20 root level. If you need any further clarification, I can go on.
21 Q. Clarify briefly, please.
22 A. So they were formed from bottom up. All armies of the world as a
23 rule are formed from top down. Ours was formed from the bottom, because
24 the TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina that had existed saw over 70 per cent of its
25 organisational structure damaged or disrupted. As such, it could no
1 longer carry the responsibilities and tasks. Quite the contrary, we had
2 to initiate the formation of units in neighbourhoods, streets, villages,
3 parts of towns, where we had brave lads who could assemble people. And
4 they, in turn, became leaders and commanders, that's how we were
5 constructing our army. At some point, we only recognised a unit that had
6 already been formed, appointing the commander who had organised the unit.
7 Q. This way of forming units, what impact did it have on the
8 establishing of the system of command and control?
9 A. Because the army was formed that way, later on we had severe
10 malfunctions of its command and control system as well as overall
11 discipline. When one forms an army in that way, we see brave people
12 commanding units but also people who are prone to be less disciplined and
13 to go against the law. This had severe consequences for the overall army
14 discipline throughout the war.
15 Q. Thank you. As far as you know, and remember, or let me put it
16 this way, do you remember when an order for the formation of the corps of
17 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was issued?
18 A. As far as I remember, the first such order of the Supreme Command
19 was on the 18th of August, 1992. In early September, we started working
20 on the formation of the corps. That same year, that is.
21 Q. Please explain. Was this order implemented immediately or did a
22 process of sorts followed?
23 A. That order was merely a piece of paper. In order to be able to
24 implement it in full, in peacetime conditions, for example to establish a
25 corps, one needs at least a year or more. Given the wartime conditions
1 that Bosnia-Herzegovina was in as well as its army, we needed far more
2 time than that.
3 Q. Do you recall, did the members of the BH army in the first years
4 of the war have ranks?
5 A. In the first two wars [as interpreted] of the war, our officers,
6 the officers of the BH army, did not have any ranks. If I can add, the
7 main reason for that was because ranks could not be bestowed because of
8 inadequate professional training of the men who were heading the units.
9 Because the total number, speaking in percentages, was about 2 to 3
10 per cent of the men who had completed some military school.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... which first
13 two wars did you refer to here, sir?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992 and 1993.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which wars are those? Can you call them by name
16 or against whom were they?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really apologise, I do not get
18 your question.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may assist, it is
20 an interpretation error. If I understand this correctly, this means that
21 somebody was aware that the interpretation was incorrect. The witness
22 did not mention two wars but the first two years of the war. And if
23 necessary, we can repeat this. This is what is causing the
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, you do see line 17 at page 19. Is
1 that what you are correcting? Thank you.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: I can confirm that I heard the translation
3 "years" and not "wars." It may have come out because of the stenography
4 but that's a technical -- no, I'm not blaming you, that's the way your
5 machine works sometimes.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks for the correction. I was looking at the
8 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Witness, you mentioned a percentage. You said point -- you said
11 2.5 to 3 per cent of the people were -- of the officers had military
12 training in the BH army. Tell us, please, can we put this in some
13 time-frame, was this throughout the war or were you referring to the
14 first two years of the war? Can we clarify that?
15 A. Yes. This situation, in the BH army, remained throughout the war
16 the same. But in 1994 and 1995, so in the last two years of the war, we
17 tried to educate a part of our officer corps; we tried to train them.
18 Q. Thank you, General. In the beginning of your testimony you
19 mentioned that the Yugoslav People's Army had taken away the military
20 assets, the weaponry and the equipment, and distributed it to the Serbian
21 population. Do you remember who provided logistic support during the war
22 to the BH army, or how was the logistic support provided to the BH army?
23 A. Throughout the war, the overall supplies and logistics were
24 provided by the local authorities on the ground. Only towards the end of
25 the war a partial equipment and supplies were provided from the top, as
1 it were.
2 Q. Let's clarify this. When you say "local authorities on the
3 ground," could you tell us, please, what kind of authorities are you
4 talking about? Are these military or political authorities? What do you
6 A. When I said that, I mean -- I meant primarily the civilian
7 authorities, the local communes, the municipalities, people, civilians,
8 powerful people and so on.
9 Q. I apologise, I will have to ask you again, because the transcript
10 does not reflect your reply.
11 Could you please -- the question was, were these military or
12 political authorities and you did provide an answer, but it is not clear
13 from the transcript.
14 Could you tell us briefly were these military or civilian
16 A. These were civilian authorities at the local commune level and
17 then municipalities, individual citizens, wealthy citizens and so on.
18 They provided support.
19 Q. Thank you. I will come back to this question later. Now I would
20 like to ask you about something else.
21 You mentioned that you were the assistant commander, corps
22 commander, from September 1st, 1992. Do you remember what was the area
23 of responsibility of the 1st Corps?
24 A. The area of responsibility of the 1st Corps of the BH army, I can
25 tell you which municipalities they cover. It was the Sarajevo city
1 itself, the Stari Grad municipality, Centar municipality, Novo Sarajevo
2 municipality, Novi Grad municipality, a part of Ilidza municipality,
3 Trnovo municipality, a part of Hadzici municipality, Fojnica
4 municipality, Visoko municipality, Breza municipality, Vares
5 municipality, Olovo municipality, a part of Ilijas municipality and later
6 on it also included the Zepa and Gorazde municipalities.
7 Q. You said Zepa and Gorazde. Correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Where was the 1st Corps command during the war?
10 A. The 1st Corps command during the war briefly was on the territory
11 of Novo Sarajevo municipality, and then from the end of 1992 up until the
12 end of the war it was in the Centar municipality, very close to the
13 Supreme Command and the General Staff, more precisely in Danijela Ozme
14 street at number 7.
15 Q. Thank you. What you're trying to tell us is that the command of
16 the Main Staff was also in Sarajevo. Was my understanding correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember where the commander of the Main Staff was, in
19 what building was his office?
20 A. The Main Staff commander was on the premises of the Vranica
21 building company.
22 Q. Do you remember where, between June 1993 up until the end of the
23 war was the administration of military security of the Main Staff of the
24 BH army, or, rather, the General Staff?
25 A. It was on the promises of the court-house in the centre of town.
1 Q. When you say "the courts," or "court-house," do you recall which
2 court this was?
3 A. I don't know whom this building belonged to, whether this was the
4 cantonal court or the municipal court, one of the two.
5 Q. Thank you. So this was not the building of the state court?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you remember whether in the Main Staff of the BH army in
8 June 1993, there were some changes, and, if so, what were they? Did you,
9 as a member of command of the 1st Corps, did you know of this?
10 A. In June 1993, the Supreme Command adopted a decision to
11 restructure the Main Staff to change its structure. A new function was
12 introduced at that time, the role of the commander of the Main Staff,
13 which was later to be the General Staff of the BH army, of the army of
14 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you remember when this happened?
16 A. I think this was on 8 June, 1993.
17 Q. Could you tell us briefly how did you find out about this?
18 A. I found out when my commander, the commander of the 1st Corps,
19 Mustafa Hajrulohovic, also known as Talijan, called me and told me to
20 join him to a meeting. The meeting had, as its role -- the meeting was
21 to inaugurate on this position the general of the Main Staff Sefer
22 Halilovic as the Chief of Staff in that command.
23 Q. Do you recall when this meeting was held?
24 A. I think the meeting was in the evening about 8.00 p.m.
25 Q. You said that at one point you were a member of the Patriotic
1 League. Do you remember what was the reaction of the Patriotic League
2 members when they heard of the change of the commander, if any? Change
3 in the command and the commander.
4 A. I was a member of the Patriotic League and this meeting, if
5 that's what we're talking about, the directive from the Supreme Command
6 was issued by the then member of parliament, Mr. Konjicija, he read this
7 directive and then all of us who were present there started a discussion
8 amongst us about this. I have to say that most people were reasonable
9 and accepted General Delic as the new commander, as the first man in the
10 army. However, a number of people protested and did not immediately warm
11 to this fact. I can mention, for instance Rifat Belijac as one such man,
12 Zicro Suljevic, Kemo Karisik. All these men later became generals and so
14 Q. Would you please kindly repeat these names because it is
15 important for them to be written down in the transcript. Could you
16 please repeat them?
17 A. General Zicro Silvoc, General Rifat Belijac, and General Meho
18 Karisik, aka Kemo.
19 Q. Could you please spell it and those names that you mentioned,
20 could you please just spell them, because it's really important for this
21 to enter?
22 A. Zicro Suljevic, Z-i-c-r-o S-u-l-j-e-v-i-c, Rifat Bilajac,
23 R-i-f-a-t B-i-l-a-j-a-c, and Meho Karisik, M-e-h-o K-a-r-i-s-i-k, aka
24 Kemo, K-e-m-o.
25 Q. Thank you. Just one last sentence, because it's time for our
1 break, could you please tell us what was the reaction of the man, the
2 first man in the staff up until then. Who was the first man in the staff
3 up until then?
4 A. The reaction was very negative, a bit aggressive. Personally,
5 when it was my turn to comment on this, I invited this man to submit to
6 the decision -- to defer to the decision of the Supreme Command and the
7 president of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina and he said to me
8 then, Well, you too, Brutus?
9 Q. Just tell me who said that to you?
10 A. Sefer Halilovic.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: So Halilovic was also against the appointment of
12 General Delic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was the one who most
14 strenuously and vociferously objected and he was the ring leader of the
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, I just wanted to make sure that his name was
17 properly registered as someone who was opposed to the appointment.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is it time for the
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is past time. Shall we take a break and come
21 back at 4.00.
22 Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 3.58 p.m.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Vidovic.
1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic, there's one little point before you
3 proceed which I wanted to clarify.
4 Sir, you said that the meeting was held on the evening of the --
5 on the 8th of June, 1993. And you said in that meeting what was
6 Halilovic inaugurated as, as the Chief of Staff in the command?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the new post created
8 in the establishment, yes. Although he had discharged those functions
9 even until then.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And Delic was appointed as?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is precisely because the whole
12 structure was changed. Until then, Sefer Halilovic was the first man of
13 the army. When the main command was changed in structure a new post was
14 introduced, following orders of the Supreme Command and that was the duty
15 of the commander of the Main Staff, and General Delic occupied it. Sefer
16 Halilovic opposed this move because he was no longer the first man.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question to ask.
19 You have spoken of the evening of the 8th of June. Could you be
20 more precise, Witness, giving us more or less the time when this meeting
21 took place?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe it was between the 1900
23 hours and 2100 hours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Earlier you had said it was at 8.00 p.m.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say that. I said I thought
1 it was at 8.00 p.m. whether it started at 7.00 or 8.00 or 8.30, but it
2 is within that time span.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It didn't start earlier then, sir, can you confirm
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I can.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Is that it?
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation.
8 Q. General, I would now like to discuss with you the month of
9 June 1993. Could you briefly, but very briefly indeed, describe the
10 military situation around Sarajevo in June 1993.
11 A. In June 1993 --
12 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. Give me a moment, please.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we should like to give
14 the witness a map and ask him to mark several locations, because we find
15 that we waste a lot of time with electronic maps. Therefore, we want the
16 map on the ELMO so that we are able to follow what the witness is saying.
17 It's D1002.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Karavelic, there is some unclarity about the
21 meetings that took place on the 8th of June and at which time they took
22 place and what happened during these meetings, and it has some importance
23 to the case. So, therefore, in order to clarify, I would like you to
24 answer to the following questions.
25 First of all, do you know when General Delic was officially
1 appointed by, I suppose, the president of the Presidency, to the position
2 as chief of the Main Staff on -- commander of the Main Staff?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Delic was appointed by the
4 Supreme Commander perhaps a day or two earlier, but the official
5 inauguration of General Delic as number one in the BH army was on that
6 day, the 8th of June, 1993, at that meeting.
7 When the decision of the Supreme Commander was brought by
8 Mr. Konjicija, Member of Parliament, who read out the decision appointing
9 General Delic commander of the Main Staff of the BH army, while Sefer
10 Halilovic was to remain in the post that he occupied until then.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: General, I understand that Mr. Konjicija, Member
12 of Parliament, read out a decision appointing General Delic as commander
13 of the Main Staff. Can you tell me whether this was the public
14 announcement of this appointment and if this was the public announcement
15 of the assignment, whether then at some earlier point General Delic had
16 been officially appointed.
17 Do you understand my question? If you do not understand, then
18 please tell me and then I will try and rephrase it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I understood.
20 I don't know exactly the date on that order of the Supreme
21 Command appointing General Delic commander of the Main Staff. It's
22 probably dated the same day, but I'm not sure, or maybe a day earlier. I
23 don't know when the Supreme Commander had a meeting, but it's very
24 important that he took up his duties only at the moment when the decision
25 was publicly announced and broadcast by the media, not before. And when
1 it was announced to his subordinates, generals and officers, and that was
2 that evening, the 8th of June, 1993.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Were you present at that meeting?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was just saying what
5 happened to me at that meeting.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And who else was present; do you recall? Or let
7 me put my question slightly differently. Was it a meeting attended by
8 many people or was it a closed circle of officers.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An inner circle of officers.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: And so do you recall who else was present there?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In addition to me there was
12 commander of the 1st Corps Mustafa Hajrulohovic, known as Talijan; there
13 was Mr. Konjicija, General Delic, Sefer Halilovic, there was Rifat
14 Bilajac, Meho Karisik, Fikret Muslimovic, Rifat Bilajac, and so on.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. So let me just make sure that I
16 understand you correctly. Your position is that General Delic did not
17 assume control over the army, according to his newly established -- his
18 newly appointed function until the evening of the 8th of June, around,
19 say, 8.00 in the evening?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: And as of that moment, Halilovic, General
22 Halilovic was then just told to stay in his position or was he offered
23 another position as a Chief of Staff.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was told that he was to remain
25 in that position but to accept General Delic as his commander.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. And my final question is: Do you
2 recall where exactly the meeting took place?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember the room. It was in the
4 room that used to be occupied by the man number 1 of the army, Sefer
5 Halilovic, in the court-house.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: So is this General Halilovic's office?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether it was an
8 office, whether it was his office or it was a larger room. I couldn't
9 tell with any certainty.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: In which building?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The court-house.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, you already said that, I'm sorry, I missed
13 that. Thank you very much, sir.
14 You may proceed, madam.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. And thank you, General. I wanted to ask you about the military
17 situation in Sarajevo in June 1993, the time you were describing just
18 now. From that moment that you've just described until the end of June,
19 or rather, the end of July, 1993.
20 A. June 1993, at that time the city was under uninterrupted blockade
21 for 18 months already. Day in day out, every day the aggressor forces
22 attacked the city, aiming to cut off various neighbourhoods, one from
23 another, and thus occupy it. The city was under constant shelling,
24 targeting civilian targets, and thousands of sniper infantry weapons and
25 other projectiles were fired everyday.
1 In the area where I was, in my corps, the command and control
2 were completely disrupted.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, madam. Can you just read the question that
4 you put to the question and tell us whether it is correctly transcribed,
5 in particular with respect to dates.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It's not
7 quite correct. I asked about the military situation around Sarajevo in
8 June 1993 and until the end of July 1993. So it was not correctly
10 Q. Witness, did you understand that I asked you about June and
11 July 1993?
12 A. That's what I understood.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this time we would
14 like to show the video-clip number 38 --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What about the map?
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- to the witness.
17 Your Honours, I would like the map to remain there because the
18 witness will be using it later.
19 [Videotape played]
20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. General, about this video, I want to you ask if you recognise the
22 scenes you saw in this clip.
23 A. I do. I recognise all of them, and I eye-witnessed most of them.
24 Q. I asked you about June and July 1993. Is this the time of such
25 events, like those we see on the video?
1 A. Precisely that's the time.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we give this
3 exhibit a number.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: What -- what city is this that is being attacked?
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour.
6 Q. Witnesses, can you tell us what city is this?
7 A. All the footage we have seen are of attacks on Sarajevo.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The tape is admitted into
9 evidence. May it please be given a number. What did you say that number
10 of the video was? V what?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The video-clip was 38.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video becomes exhibit number
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
16 Q. Witness, could you now mark Sarajevo on the map.
17 A. Do you want me to draw on the map?
18 Q. Could you just put a little circle around the city of Sarajevo.
19 A. Do you want me to encircle the defence lines.
20 Q. No, not defence lines. The city of Sarajevo.
21 A. [Marks]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know whether we are being shown the -- let
23 me see, okay. Okay. Thank you.
24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Please, General, you told us a moment ago that the city was under
1 siege, constant siege. Could you tell us how it was possible to exit
2 from the city of Sarajevo in June and July 1993, if at all?
3 A. In the course of 1992 and 1993, it was very difficult, almost
4 impossible, to enter or get out of Sarajevo, because the city was under
5 complete and full military siege by the aggressor forces. The only way
6 where individual crossings in and out were possible was to run across in
7 inclement weather across the airport, that is the run way of the airport,
8 because the airport was under the control of the UNPROFOR. However, if
9 the individuals were noticed by the UNPROFOR, they would be apprehended
10 and taken back. Along the airport, along the length of the airport
11 aggressor forces had their line shooting at the airport. It was very
12 difficult for anyone to cross without being injured or wounded or even
14 Q. Thank you, General. I asked you specifically about June and
15 July 1993, and I want to ask the following. What you have just
16 described, does it also apply to June and July 1993?
17 A. Of course it applies to both June and July. But in June and
18 especially July, even when an individual manages to get across the run
19 way, later on, if they attempt to reach the free territory in the central
20 part of Bosnia, they would have to cross Mount Igman and that was another
21 point of high risk, not less so than the airport run way. Mount Igman
22 was also under attack by the aggressor whose aim was to create a perfect
23 encirclement of the city. Mount Igman was also under strong fire by the
24 enemy 24 hours a day.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that a tunnel was dug somewhere there
1 and if you remember it, give us the date?
2 A. We called it the Sarajevo War Tunnel. We dug it exactly on the
3 31st of July; that is, the night of 31st July, under the airport run way.
4 Q. Thank you. You have just described how risky it was to attempt
5 to get out of Sarajevo and you explained what municipalities were within
6 the area of responsibility of the 1st Corps. Now could you please tell
7 us what communications were possible with units outside of Sarajevo. Try
8 to be brief.
9 A. Communications with units outside of Sarajevo, any kind of
10 communication, was scarce. There was no continuity, there were frequent
11 and long breakdowns and the means of communications were very poor. So
12 communications were sporadic and unsafe.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was this tunnel dug and completed on one day, on
14 the 31st of July?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The building of the tunnel
16 began back in end of February that same year.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: So when you said it was dug exactly on the 31st of
18 July, do you mean that was the end -- the completion date?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used the word that actually means
20 that the two sides of the tunnel dug by two different sets of our
21 soldiers met at that point in the night of the 31st of July. And that's
22 considered to be the completion of the tunnel.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.
25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. I would now like to ask you the following.
2 You said you were appointed commander of the 1st Corps in
3 July 1993. Was there any cooperation between you as the corps commander
4 and the command of the Main Staff.
5 A. Between me as commander of the 1st Corps in the city of Sarajevo
6 where I was located, where I was based, there was soldierly and
7 professional cooperation with the Main Staff.
8 Q. Thank you. But, actually, my drift was a bit different. I
9 wanted to ask you if you met with members of the command of the
10 Main Staff, including the commander of the Main Staff?
11 A. Yes, naturally.
12 Q. What did you discuss, what were the subjects of your meetings?
13 A. Current military activities and how to defend Sarajevo as a
14 strategic point, both for the aggressor and the defenders.
15 Q. Now based on these discussions, were you able to evaluate the
16 level of information available to the General Staff about free
17 territories. That is, those outside Sarajevo.
18 A. I can tell you that based on my own experience because half of my
19 corps was encircled in the city of Sarajevo and the other half was
20 outside of Sarajevo. I was only superficially informed about that other
21 half of my corps, and therefore I can confirm that the commander of the
22 General Staff had very sparse information about the status of other
24 Q. Did you discuss it with him occasionally?
25 A. Yes, certainly.
1 Q. Do you remember what he would tell you?
2 A. I was thinking about how to improve communications, how to get
3 by -- by more up-to-date devices, how to left the siege around Sarajevo
4 and so on and so forth.
5 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go to the 10th of June and the
6 period until the 30th of June, 1993.
7 I wish that a document be shown to you.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will stay with the
9 map throughout the testimony. Now I would like to have D931 shown,
10 please. For the transcript it is a document from the 1st Corps command
11 dated the 13th of June, 1993. The title is: Amendment to combat report
12 forwarded to the staff of the Supreme Command.
13 Witness, this is a short document. I can quote it to you, since
14 it is difficult to read:
15 "In the area of responsibility of IBOG Gorazde, according to the
16 last extraordinary report the situation is alarming. The last defence
17 lines on the right bank were broken through; Chetniks are entering the
18 town; there are hundreds of killed and wounded. They have nothing else
19 left to resist the Chetniks with. Everything is being demolished, burned
20 down and people being killed. There is no control or resistance on the
21 right bank of the Drina. They are requesting us to do everything we can
22 in order to try and protect the remaining population."
23 I want to ask you this. You mentioned Gorazde as one of the
24 places being in the AOR of your corps. What would be your comment as to
25 the contents of this document?
1 A. My comment would be this. It reflects for the most part the
2 situation, although there is no such a document which could truly paint
3 the picture of the situation in Gorazde at the time.
4 Q. What is mentioned here is a Serb offensive. What was the aim of
5 that offensive, if you recall?
6 A. I do very well. I was one of the people engaged in the defence
7 and fighting the offensive. In early June, the offensive began by the
8 aggressor aimed at the eastern Bosnian enclaves, that is, Gorazde. It
9 was ongoing combat. Lines were being broken through and the aggressor
10 was occupying more and more of our territory. The role, or the aim, was
11 to carry on with the offensive and to cut off the corridor leading to
12 Gorazde and later on to occupy Bijelasnica, Trnovo, Treskavica, and Igman
13 so as to encircle Sarajevo with a second ring. They also continued their
14 attacks from Vogosca to Zuc to force the military and political leaders
15 to a dead-end position.
16 Q. At the time of this, were you in contact with the commander of
17 the Main Staff?
18 A. Yes, on several occasions.
19 Q. Did the commander and the Main Staff try to deal with these
21 A. Yes, certainly.
22 Q. How?
23 A. In such poor communications conditions, they tried to establish
24 communication with the units involved and to try and replenish the forces
25 defending Sarajevo. There were also trying to improve logistics and
1 sending its officers to assist in the field.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
3 assign an exhibit number to this document.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Document D 931 is admitted into evidence. May it
5 please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1324, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
9 Q. General, I would kindly ask you to locate Gorazde on the map
10 before you. I believe we can see it on the ELMO. Please find Gorazde
11 and mark it.
12 A. Gorazde is inside the circle.
13 Q. Could we please see that on the screen. Thank you.
14 I would like to ask you the following. What was the result of
15 the offensive you've just described?
16 A. The result of the offensive --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Vidovic. I heard the witness say
18 Gorazde is inside the circle. Is he able to show us where it is inside
19 the circle. And just secondly draw the smaller circle. Right, fine,
20 okay. Now we can see it. Sorry.
21 You may proceed, Madam Vidovic. Sorry about that.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. I asked you to share with us what the result of the offensive
24 was, the offensive undertaken by Serb forces.
25 A. The result of that offensive on the part of the aggressor was
1 that between Trnovo and Gorazde, they completely took over the corridor
2 area. That corridor was used by the population of Gorazde to supply
3 themselves with things they needed up until that point.
4 Q. Please put a circle around Trnovo. You mentioned that. You
5 mentioned the corridor. Please mark Trnovo.
6 A. This is the town of Trnovo.
7 Q. Can you see the corridor on the map?
8 A. No. Not on this one. But I can draw a line to indicate where it
10 Q. Please do so.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Very well. You said ... if I understood you well, you said that
13 the corridor was cut off in the offensive.
14 A. Along the whole stretch, because Trnovo was occupied as well as
15 the Rogoj mountain pass.
16 Q. Just a moment, General. Let us have a look at D 936 next and
17 then I will ask you to mark some things on the map.
18 General, before we see the document, I would like to ask you to
19 mark Rogoj.
20 A. This is the Rogoj mountain pass. It is a very important feature.
21 The trig point is 1163.
22 Q. Thank you. Let us have a look at D 936 next please.
23 In the Bosnian version it is very difficult to read. Therefore,
24 I would kindly ask the usher to hand a hard copy to the witness.
25 For the record, D 936 is a document of the 1st corps command
1 dated the 3rd of July, 1993. The title is daily combat report.
2 Witness, have a look at the document, its first page, you told us
3 that you were a member of the 3rd corps command. Please look at the
4 right-hand side where the distribution list is. It says the Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina armed force Supreme Command staff and underneath we
6 have the IKM of the RBiH armed force Supreme Command Staff at Zenica.
7 Can you tell us why you sent this document to Zenica.
8 A. Because at that time the Supreme Command staff headed by
9 Commander Delic had established its forward command post in Zenica. In
10 order to keep our superior command informed about all of the event, which
11 sent this document to the IKM as well.
12 Q. We were referring to the 1st corps. This is a document of the
13 1st corps. It seems that you have said the 3rd corps. I was referring
14 to this document?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. If you remember, who headed the Main Staff of the armed forces at
17 Zenica at the time?
18 A. The IKM at Zenica was headed by General Stjepan Siber.
19 Q. Thank you. Read out the text for yourself under (A), situation
20 is described therein.
21 General, under (A), I wanted to ask you this. What does this
22 paragraph refer to?
23 A. This part of the document talks about the degree or intensity of
24 non-stop shelling on the part of the aggressor aimed at the city of
1 Q. It is stated that the Chetniks broke through our first defence
2 lines in the wider area of Mujkica Brdo?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tell us where Mujkica Brdo is and can you indicate it on the map?
5 A. Mujkica Brdo is here approximately, just below the letter S in
7 Q. I don't see where you indicated that. Could you please place an
8 X there and write Mujkica Brdo?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you. On the 3rd of July, 1993, we here see that the Serb
11 forces broke through into a part of Sarajevo that had been controlled by
12 the units of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On the 3rd of July, 1993, what did that mean for the town of
16 A. It meant that the city would fall. It meant that the aggressor
17 would manage to cut the city in half and to destroy the Istok facility.
18 Since it was a crucial location the whole outcome of the war would be put
19 into question.
20 Q. As the corps command, did you study that situation with the
21 Main Staff? Did it deal with the situation?
22 A. Yes. It studied it, because, at that time, it was also a
23 strategic task for the staff of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 Q. When you say a strategic task, what do you mean?
25 A. I mean that they had to deal with it and to leave everything else
1 aside, as unimportant at that moment.
2 Q. When you say they had to deal with that, what do you mean
4 A. They had to deal with the defence of Sarajevo so as to defend the
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
7 assign an Exhibit number to the document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: D936 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
9 given an exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit number 1325.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness
14 please be shown Exhibit 229 at this moment.
15 For the record, it is a Supreme Command staff document from its
16 intelligence administration dated the 17th of July, 1993. The title is:
17 Weekly report, military operational situation at the front lines in
19 Q. Please have a look at the first part of the document. I'm
20 talking about the military operational situation and specific events in
21 the theatre in Bosnia-Herzegovina for the past week.
22 Please tell us which of those listed took place within your corps
23 area of responsibility, that is in Sarajevo and its immediate
25 A. In my AOR, that is the AOR of the 1st Corps, we have the first
1 item, that is, the offensive against Rogoj and Trnovo; and then item 2,
2 offensive at Mount Igman; item 3, concentration of aggressor forces in
3 the Sarajevo sector; item 6, continuation of combat activities in the
4 Gorazde sector; and item 8, additional mobilisation of the Croatian
5 Defence council.
6 Q. Thank you, General. Does the document reflect ... the items
7 you've just read out, do they reflect the situation in the field. Is
8 that correct, as you know it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I would like to ask you to mark Mount Igman on the map.
11 A. This is Mount Igman.
12 Q. Thank you. I would just like to pause or deal with this document
13 a bit longer.
14 I would like to ask you this. Mention is made here of additional
15 mobilisation of the HVO. Can you tell us, please, this was on the 17th
16 of July, 1993. What were the relations between HVO forces and the BH
17 army at this time; in other words in July 1993?
18 A. We can answer in one word, the relations were wartime, because
19 the Croatian Defence Council, at the beginning of 1993, launched together
20 with the Croatian army an aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina the same way
21 that the Serb forces did.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please remove this
23 document, and I would like the witness to be shown document D935.
24 For the record, this is a document from the 1st Corps command of
25 1st July, 1993, entitled, "Information on HVO fighter concentration
1 hereby submitted to OG Igman."
2 Would you please take a look at this document. Please, Witness,
3 take a look at the document. It's legible and short.
4 In the first section it deals with the concentration of HVO
5 fighters in Kiseljak, and it then deals with their participation in the
6 fighting around Kiseljak. Would you please just briefly comment on this.
7 Do you remember these events.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was this in your area of responsibility or not?
10 A. Yes, this was in my area of responsibility.
11 Q. Was this actually happening then? Was there a concentration of
12 HVO fighters at that time or not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please point to Kiseljak on the map and put a circle
15 around it.
16 A. Kiseljak is here, the place where I put the circle.
17 Q. Thank you. I would like now to show you another document. Let's
18 keep the map where it is for a while longer.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, I would
20 like to tender document D935 as an exhibit.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: D935 the document is admitted as an exhibit. May
22 it please be given an exhibit number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be become exhibit
24 number 1326.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
1 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think at this point
3 I would like to also tender this map with the markings.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The map with the markings on it is admitted into
5 evidence. May it please be given an exhibit number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map will become exhibit number
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
10 Exhibit 1247.
11 Could we just scroll down the document to see the author of the
12 document. And could we do the same with the English version.
13 Please display the next page on the English.
14 Q. While we're waiting for the English page to come up, for the
15 record let me say that this is a document from the command of the Igman
16 defence of 30 July 1993, and I would like to ask you this. Have you ever
17 seen this document before?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who authored it?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. I would now like to talk with you about this date, the 30th of
22 July, 1993, and I will quote the problems that are listed here.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see again the
24 previous page of the English version. Please scroll down in the document
25 so that we see the part saying problems.
1 Q. There it says: "I do not have a single man in reserve or to
2 fight with HD. Mass abandoning of positions especially in Trnovo
3 brigade, where it seems to have been impossible to consolidate positions.
4 Mass population exodus in villages, lack of artillery ammunition.
5 Requests urgently send new forces."
6 Could we now see the next page of the English version, please.
7 "Urgently bring new forces, urgently supply artillery ammunition.
8 Urgent arrival of helicopters in order to transport the seriously
10 General, would you please comment on what is written here,
11 briefly, especially the portion relating to problems. First of all, tell
12 us whom were you advising of these problems?
13 A. Well, it says so on the document itself. General Delic and
14 General Halilovic.
15 Q. What would your comment be on the situation on the 30th of July,
17 A. It was -- the situation was very difficult. I thought at that
18 time that the whole world this come down and -- because I was commander
19 there. The aggressor forces managed to capture a large portion of the
20 territory, about 30 to 40 villages in this large valley between two
21 mountains: Treskavica, Visocica, Bijelasnica, Igman. Everything was
22 burned down during the day, every single village, every single house was
23 torched. And this operation was commanded by war criminal Ratko Mladic
24 personally. I was ahead of him, totally helpless, with no men, no
25 equipment, a large number of refugees who were just coming down and
1 passing that way and soldiers then started abandoning their positions and
2 trying to find their family members. So that the fate of Sarajevo was in
3 the balance there, hanging in the balance.
4 Q. Thank you. In connection with this situation, were you in
5 contact with a superior command, in others with the Main Staff, and its
6 commander in June and July 1993, and did they deal -- did it deal with
7 this situation?
8 A. Yes, of course.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just interrupt you. Where were you at
10 this time?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was on Mount Igman that I put a
12 circle around a few moments ago.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: And where were General Delic and General
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the town of Sarajevo.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, you send this document to them. How did you
17 send it to them? How did it reach them? How did it get there?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember now, but there
19 were two possible ways, either by paket communications or by courier.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the top of the document. Let's see
21 whether it went by paket.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please scroll up the
23 document a bit.
24 Could you please give us the first page of the English version
25 for the Chamber. Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, by the way, when it goes by
2 crypto-protection, is it able to go through an area which is under siege?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course it can.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just wanted to know. Just wanted to have it on
5 the record.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This goes through air.
7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation.
8 Q. Thank you, General Karavelic.
9 I asked you about contacts in the course of June and July 1993,
10 contacts with the superior command and to what extent they dealt with the
11 situation, if at all.
12 A. They were very engaged in this whole situation. And among other
13 things, let me just mention that it was General Delic's -- it was thanks
14 to General Delic that on the 31st of July, 1st of August, I received two
15 units from Central Bosnia, exclusively thanks to General Delic, and this
16 was a situation where at the last minute, together with the units that
17 they sent from the town of Sarajevo by way of the tunnel, the soldiers
18 had to go one by one, one after another through the tunnel because it was
19 so narrow so that those units, which arrived there thanks to
20 General Delic, from the city of Sarajevo with them, we were able at the
21 last minute to prevent the aggressor forces, they were one kilometre away
22 way from us, to link up from Trnovo and Hadzici so that the city of
23 Sarajevo would not be encircled in another military encirclement.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us now, please, were the people of
25 Sarajevo aware of the situation?
1 A. The people of Sarajevo were aware of the situation, and they
2 tried in any many ways to contribute to the defence of the city.
3 Q. Thank you. I would now like to explore another -- another
4 subject. Can you please explain what the situation was like in the city
5 of Sarajevo itself between June and November 1993? Could you give us a
6 brief description of the situation within the units of the 1st Corps in
7 the city of Sarajevo at the time?
8 A. This is the period when the 1st Corps units in the city of
9 Sarajevo fought day in/day out, every single minute, there was no easing
10 up, because the intensity of the fighting was very high. Second, the 1st
11 Corps and its units at this time were fighting three enemies, and the BH
12 army, four. The three enemies that the 1st Corps had to fight with were
13 the Serb forces that held the siege of Sarajevo; then the forces of the
14 HVO, which were, in part, in the city itself, but they were mostly
15 concentrated in Kiseljak and Vares; and the third enemy was internal, the
16 fight with its own commanders and units that were not disciplined and
17 that were not within the chain of command.
18 Q. Thank you, General.
19 Can we please discuss this in more detail. I would like to show
20 you a document, D298.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say you were fighting against three
23 enemies and the Croatian army, four, not the BH army because this is not
24 likely to be corrected because of -- it doesn't look like a mistake here.
25 But I did I think I heard you say Croatia.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that units of the 1st Corps
2 have three enemies, and the BH army had four enemies; the fourth enemy
3 being outside of my area of responsibility and I just wanted to note it.
4 And the three enemies that I had to deal with were the Serbian forces,
5 the Croatian forces, the HVO, and the third was internal, our commanders
6 and our units within the 1st Corps which were outside of the chain of
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why were they outside the chain of command?
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the topic that
10 I want to explore in detail.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you explore that, who was the fourth
12 enemy that the BH army was against?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The autonomy faction headed by
14 Fikret Abdic in Bosanska Gradiska and in Bihac, in this area of Bihac.
15 Bosanska Kladusa, I apologise.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Madam Vidovic.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I think
18 we've clarified this. So let us take a look at D298. For the record let
19 me say that --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you said you were pursuing why they were
21 outside the chain of command. Is that where you're going to?
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, this is just the
23 beginning, Your Honour.
24 Q. General, would you please take a look at this document, this
25 order. This is an order from the Main Staff of the armed forces of
1 September 1st, 1992, and I would just like to ask you, are you familiar
2 with this document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What do you -- what are you familiar with in this document?
5 A. I'm familiar with almost all these persons who are being
6 appointed and I also see that my name is there, whereby by this order I
7 was appointed as deputy commander of the 1st Corps of the BH army.
8 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to see the second page of the
9 Bosnian version and the English version.
10 General, would you please tell us, there is mention here made of
11 the district defence staff of Sarajevo on 1st July -- I would like you to
12 take a look at these names and tell us which of these men were commanders
13 of brigades in Sarajevo?
14 A. They were under C, Sehovic Enver, number one; then under D, Nenad
15 Ajanalic; under E, Salko Gusic; under F, Safet Zajko; G, Ozegovic
16 Zukdija; H, Mustafa Zujlic; I, Puskar Zakir; and J, Ramiz Delalic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Let me ask you this. You mentioned the Sarajevo commanders here.
20 How many of them had completed the Military Academy?
21 A. The only person who graduated from the real Military Academy was
22 the person under D, Nenad Ajdzanic.
23 Q. How many of these people that you mentioned here had any military
25 A. In addition to Nenad Ajanalic, the person under C, Enver Sehovic,
1 had some military education. The person under E, Salko Gusic. And
2 that's it.
3 Q. What about the rest?
4 A. The others are all commanders who became commanders when the army
5 was being established from bottom up, and they had no military education
7 Q. How many of them had criminal records before the war, as far as
8 you know?
9 A. I know for certain that the last three, and I'm reading from the
10 bottom, Ramiz Delalic, Zakir Puskar, and Mustafa Zujlic. I'm not sure
11 about the others.
12 Q. All right, thank you. Let me ask you this now. Is this the
13 situation that you were faced with when you were appointed the commander
14 of the 1st Corps?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender
17 this document into evidence.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence, D928
19 [sic]. May it please be given an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document will become exhibit number
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this is a good
24 time to make a break, with your leave.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is indeed. And this document is admitted into
1 evidence, it has still not answered my question, which you are going to
2 deal with, why are they outside the chain of command.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that will be the topic
4 explored for the duration of the next session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just making sure you don't forget, Madam Vidovic.
6 We will take a break and come back at a quarter to 6.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Vidovic.
10 MR. WOOD: Your Honour, if I may.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood.
12 MR. WOOD: I apologise for raising this late, Your Honour, but I
13 was told just after we took the break that document D 936 which became
14 exhibit 1325, a copy of that document had been shown to the witness with
15 markings on it that were not his own. They were highlighted I believe by
16 Defence counsel. The Prosecution suggests that given that, it diminishes
17 any value that the document might have and we do object to that being
18 admitted into evidence sort of retroactively. Short of that, Your
19 Honour, we would ask Defence just to make sure that if they're handing
20 documents to the witness, because they have problems with the legibility
21 of what is shown on the screen, that they make sure that there are no
22 highlights or other markings on those documents before they're shown to
23 the witness.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we see the document, please, and while the
25 document is coming up, Mr. Wood, didn't you see the document before it
1 was handed over to the witness?
2 MR. WOOD: I did not, Your Honour. I was not shown until after
3 the break had been taken.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is supposed to be standard procedure that
5 before a document is given to a witness it should be shown to the
6 opposite side for you to make comments on it before, and if the Trial
7 Chamber had forgot to do so, please jump up and ask for it.
8 MR. WOOD: I will take that on board, Your Honour. Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You hear that, Madam Vidovic?
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, I heard. I'm
12 sorry, I really did not pay enough attention. Whichever way you look at
13 it, it is my mistake. I will take care to show a clear copy again --
14 again, next time.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do that. Make sure you take care of that,
16 but also take care that before you pass the document to the witness, you
17 ask that it be sent to your opposite member to see before it is handed
18 over. Okay. Thank you very much.
19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Wood, it is admitted into evidence. I think
21 we will make note of the fact that it was highlighted.
22 MR. WOOD: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. General, before the break, we were discussing the situation with
25 the officers cadre when you became commander of the 1st Corps. What was
1 the situation with the commanders when General Delic came to head the
2 Main Staff? Was it the same, better, worse?
3 A. The same.
4 Q. Thank you. From what you know, what was the situation in other
5 areas controlled by the BH army, concerning the cadre of officers?
6 A. I would say the same, more or less.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now look at video
9 43, which is related.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You have just seen this video, General. What would you have to
13 say about what this speaker said about the officers?
14 A. We just heard the commander of the General Staff drawing the
15 attention of all of us who were present at that conference on training
16 and discipline to the presence of a large number of individuals and
17 groups smaller and sometimes as large as brigades that do not obey any
18 orders that are sometimes only partially in the chain of command and
19 sometimes completely outside of the chain of command, and at that time it
20 was a burning problem, how to deal with that, how to properly train and
21 discipline troops and achieve a satisfactory level of training and
22 discipline in the whole army and thereby the 1st Corps that I was
23 particularly concerned with.
24 Q. Do you remember when this speech was made?
25 A. Well, there were more than one of these meetings in 1993, I
1 believe. It`s difficult to pinpoint the date.
2 Q. What you said is not quite precisely recorded. Could you repeat
4 A. The commander of the General Staff precisely spoke about the
5 discipline in the ranks of ABiH.
6 Q. About the time?
7 A. The second half of 1993.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we get an
10 exhibit number for this video, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The video is admitted into evidence. May it
12 please be given an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video will become exhibit
14 number 1329.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now look at
17 Exhibit 188.
18 For the record, it's decree with a force of law on the
19 establishment and work of districts dated 8th of August, 1992.
20 Could the witness now look at page 2, Article 8, para 6, which is
21 page 2 in Bosnian, and page 3 in English.
22 Q. Witness, so please look at Article 8, item 6. It is short, I'll
23 quote it. It stipulates: "The organizing of armed combat in the
24 territory of the district and control of this combat."
25 I want to ask you, first of all, did you ever have the occasion
1 to hold in your hands this decree on the establishment and operation of
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to the next page,
5 page 3 in Bosnian and page 6 in English.
6 Q. I want to quote another passage and ask for your comment.
7 Article 20 speaks of the Presidency of the district. It says:
8 "The Presidency shall handle the organisation and preparation of citizens
9 for armed combat on the territory of the district."
10 Now I want to ask you, what is your experience with the
11 implementation of this decree, in practice, if you have any experience.
12 A. Rather bad, mostly. This decree caused a great deal of
13 confusion. How and why it was passed, I don't know. All I know is that
14 it caused a great deal of confusion and numerous problems because of the
15 interference of civilian bodies and district chiefs in the control and
16 command of units, specifically my units of the 1st Corps.
17 Q. Can you describe briefly what happened in practice. You
18 mentioned the interference of politicians. Just tell us what was your
19 experience with the interference of politicians in command and control?
20 A. I will give you just one example from the Centar municipality.
21 The chief of Centar municipality, Huso Kamber, and that municipality, as
22 the word "Centar" says, is in the centre of the city. In 1993, I was
23 travelling by jeep to a defence line under attack and some sort of radio
24 was on and I heard the announcement on the radio that the chief of the
25 municipality allocated some money and other assets, as he put it, to his
1 brigade commanders and that meant the commander of the 10th Mountain
2 Brigade. Tapalovic Caco and deputy commander of the 9th Motorised
3 Brigade, Ramiz Delalic, known as Celo. I turned back immediately, burst
4 into his office, called him to task very vigorously as a soldier. He was
5 very frightened, but later on he complained to President Izetbegovic.
6 Izetbegovic called me to task and then formed a commission headed by
7 General Siber, Stjepan Siber, who was to reconcile the two of us.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let us get clarity. President Izetbegovic called
9 you to task because you confronted this man.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And are we to understand that
12 President Izetbegovic was also undermining the war effort?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, looking at this decision that
14 we are discussing and this kind of conduct on behalf of -- on the part of
15 municipal chiefs, I could say yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me understand. This -- this decree law, is it
17 a decree in law passed by the central government or is it passed by the
18 municipal assembly?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somewhere half between central and
20 municipal level. It is called district government.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. And it is these people in the district
22 government who were undermining the war effort?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could put it that way.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is it the evidence that this decree law was
25 passed precisely to undermine the war effort?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult for me to say from
2 this distance, but would say that this decree was passed by civilians and
3 when they were adopting it, they ignored completely what it meant for the
4 functioning of the military organisation.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The Presidency that is being referred to in
6 this law does to the refer to the president -- the Presidency of the
7 country. It refers to the Presidency of the district.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
10 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but I'm lost.
11 Here, it seems, and maybe I'm mistaken, it seems that one is not
12 talking about the organisation of a unit but of the organisation and of
13 the preparations of the citizens; therefore, not of a unit for operations
14 on the ground, for preparation and organisation of citizens for combat
16 So I had understood, but maybe I'm mistaken so I would really
17 like to be told to understand the content of this decree, I had
18 understood, rather, that it was a question of organisation and
19 preparation of the citizens who could become part of the Territorial
20 Defence, the TO.
21 And, anyway, I would like to know, talking about the first page,
22 this title, the title of this decree, could it be shown again, please,
23 because this escaped me.
24 Could we please see the first page of the document. Above the
25 source also.
1 This is a decree, a decree law which organises the tasks and
2 districts. So you answered the president Judge Moloto that it was passed
3 at the district level. But I don't think it is so because if it has to
4 do with the organising the district it must have been at a higher level
5 that it was passed.
6 So would it be possible to scroll upwards again to see pages
7 before, I see the beginning of the page, the top of the page, please. I
8 can't see anything else at the beginning.
9 Right. This is okay. Thank you.
10 So, by whom was this decree passed?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's written in the heading of the
12 document, pursuant to amendment 2, item 5, paragraph 3, to the
13 constitution of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and at the
14 proposal of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Presidency,
15 hereby adopts the decree law.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But is it the Presidency of the Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's not the Presidency of the district, sir. And
18 hence I go back it my question, this law is promulgated by the Presidency
19 of the country. It says what should be done. You hear over the radio
20 while you are driving in a jeep that something contrary to what is in
21 this law is being announced. You turn back to the office of the person
22 who is being spoken about, you confront him, because he is undermining
23 this law, and by undermining this law he is under meaning the war effort.
24 And thereafter, the president of the Presidency of the country wraps you
25 over the knuckles about it.
1 My question to you is, are you then saying President Izetbegovic
2 was also undermining the war effort because is he on the side of the man
3 whom you are rebuking.
4 Is that your testimony?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One could say so.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope you understood me question very well.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, very well.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You did. But -- now, let me ask this question. I
9 can't resist the temptation.
10 Izetbegovic is the commander in chief of the army of Bosnia and
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... war, and then
14 he doesn't discipline people who are undermining the war. Instead, he
15 disciplines people who are promoting the war, carrying out his orders, in
16 other words. Why would he do that, in your view?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, because even the
18 president of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina did not know much
19 about the functioning of military organisations. That was one reason.
20 Another reason was because the chief of the municipality
21 assisting the two brigade commanders -- well, those two brigade
22 commanders were not within the chain of command. If I was commander of
23 the 1st Corps my question is: Whose position or whose attitude was the
24 correct one, mine or that of the president?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: From the testimony you have given, we are left -
1 or at least speaking for myself, I am left with the impression that yours
2 was the correct attitude. At least it was according to --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely so.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was following the law. Now, if you say
5 Izetbegovic didn't know much about the functioning of the law, he has his
6 general here. Why doesn't he communicate to the general and say, Man, I
7 see those two men quarrelling there, can you find out what is happening?
8 This is the man who knows everything about the law of war and all the
9 laws of BiH that relate to war. He is the man who is implementing those
10 laws. Why didn't he say to him, Can you found out what is happening down
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are completely
13 right. However, the question is who was supporting the two brigade
14 commanders who were disobedient to me as the corps commander. I acted
15 according to military rules and regulations and procedures and not
16 according to any civilian procedures, since I was the corps commander.
17 Those two brigade commanders were recalcitrant. They were my
18 subordinates, but -- and de jure they were within my chain of command.
19 However, they were being rewarded by the municipal chief whose
20 actions were subsequently approved by the President of the Supreme
21 Commander and I vigorously stood up to that. After a while, I was told
22 that I was right, but not at the moment when it was happening.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: When President Izetbegovic called you to task,
24 what did you say to him?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Centar municipal
1 chief awarded monetary rewards to the two brigade commanders who were not
2 within my chain of command. On top of that, the municipal chief knew of
3 it all and the president knew of it all. However, the president was not
4 answerable to me in any way. He founded a commission and ordered me to
5 reconcile with the municipal chief.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is -- I just want to know, this is the
7 Defence case that in fact even the Supreme Commander of the armed forces
8 was undermining his own armed forces, together with the municipal and
9 district civilian authorities.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence doesn't
11 define it in quite that way. The Defence states that
12 President Izetbegovic had, how should I put it, great influence or
13 controlled some forces directly that were outside the chain of command,
14 if you understand me.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't understand you any differently from the
16 question I put to you.
17 You may proceed.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I still have something to ask,
20 but I still haven't understood two things.
21 How what you heard on the radio was actually undermining this
22 decree. How was it contrary to this decree; and after that, whether this
23 decree concerned the organisation of citizens and not of the units or
24 not, as far as the war in Bosnia is concerned?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The decree states that it concerns
1 the organisation of citizens. However, politicians understood that as
2 being able to meddle with the command and control of the units that are
3 in the Territorial Defence of their municipalities.
4 As to how he violated the system of command and control when
5 rewarding the two brigade commanders, I don't exactly know. It could
6 mean that any municipal chief or anyone has the right to give money or
7 means to assist the army. However, that needs to go through regular
8 logistic basis. It should be given to the financial department of the
9 superior command, and then they decide how to allocate those.
10 It turns out that the disobedient ones were being awarded
11 directly impacting the morale in other brigades.
12 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I am terribly sorry but I cannot
13 understand how can financial support affect the command or the military
14 control or what does one have to do with the other? I can't understand.
15 If the Defence manages to make me understand what is the link
16 between the two, fine; otherwise, I do not understand this.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps the witness
18 can respond.
19 Q. Can you tell us in what way such financing can influence the
21 A. In any war, including the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, finances,
22 that is material assets to conduct a war is key. If, among equals,
23 certain individuals are financially rewarded and those people are
24 negative characters, this has severe impact on control -- command and
25 control disrupting the chain.
1 Q. It is a military issue, Your Honour.
2 I'd like to ask you something else.
3 You told us that you were involved in an incident, that you were
4 summoned by President Izetbegovic. Did he do that himself, or was it
5 done with respect for the chain of command and control? Was it done
6 through the Main Staff or did he do that directly? Did you understand
8 A. I'm afraid I did not.
9 Q. You told us this. President Izetbegovic summoned you, called you
10 to task, since you had an argument with the municipal chief?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did he summon you personally or through the commander of the
13 Main Staff?
14 A. He did that personally. He didn't go through the Main Staff
15 commander. Later on, the Main Staff did play a role in the
17 Q. Did the Main Staff commander have any role to play when you were
18 summoned, and I mean Mr. Delic.
19 A. He was tasked with forming the commission and appointing General
20 Siber to head it.
21 Q. I'm asking you about the time when you were called to task. I'm
22 not talking about the commission.
23 A. He did not have anything to do with it.
24 Q. Therefore, you understood me. It still seems a bit unclear.
25 What would be a standard way of communicating within the chain of
1 command and control, if you, as corps commander are in violation of
3 A. On the part of the Supreme Command?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Standard procedure, military procedure would be that the
6 president of the Presidency calls my commander, that is commander of the
7 Main Staff, and that commander of the Main Staff calls me to task. If we
8 were summoned to see the president then I would have to go together with
9 my commander.
10 Q. Thank you. Did that take place?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is this an isolated case that you experienced or were there
14 A. It wasn't an isolated case. There were others.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please see
16 footage -- or video 44.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Did you follow the clip?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Does it reflect what you said in your testimony so far?
22 A. Yes, completely so.
23 Q. Were you present on this occasion?
24 A. I was.
25 Q. What was it about?
1 A. It was about resolving the problems of discipline in the army of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina, or, rather, it had to do with prevention of
3 meddling of civilians and politicians into the work of the army of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina at all levels.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have
6 an exhibit number for this document.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The clip is admitted into evidence. May it please
8 be given an exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video will become exhibit
10 number 1331 -- 1330 [Realtime transcript read in error "1332"], I
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. General Karavelic, could you please specifically turn to certain
15 events in Sarajevo between the 8th of June, 1993, from the 8th of
16 June onwards. Please have a look at D930 next.
17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, it is a
18 bulletin dated 12th of June, 1993.
19 Could the witness please be shown page 3 of the document, both in
20 the Bosnian and English versions.
21 Q. Witness, would you please take a look at this portion, focus on
22 the portion beginning with: "On the 8th of June, 1993."
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just scroll down the
24 document so the witness can read.
25 Q. Witness, was the command of the 3rd corps [as interpreted] or not
1 attacked on the 8th of June, 1993?
2 A. Yes. It was in a sort of a state of siege. It's hard to say
3 that it was physically attacked.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the next page of
6 the document.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Madam Vidovic. Some of these mistakes
8 are not likely to be seen as mistakes when the correction is made. I see
9 there's talk of the 3rd Corps that was under siege that was being
10 attacked, not the 1st Corps, and this document seems to talk about the
11 1st Corps.
12 Similarly, while we are at this, I might as well mention this, at
13 line 23 of page 66, the registrar said: "Your Honours, the video will
14 become 1330, I apologise," not 32. So it's 30 up there and I suppose
15 it's supposed to be the 1st Corps here.
16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's what both
17 the witness and I have said. I don't know how it came out to be the
18 3rd Corps.
19 Q. We are talking speaking about the 1st Corps. Is that correct?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just mentioning this because these mistakes
21 are not obvious mistakes when they check later, and they need to be
22 corrected now.
23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 Could we now see the next page of the document, please.
25 I apologise, could we see page 4 in English. In the Bosnian
1 version, it's the next page, and page 4 of the English version, in both
2 cases, the first section.
3 I will quote this brief section, where it says: "Such action of
4 Celo`s men was not approved by other brigade battalions that supported
5 Commander Mesirevic. These battalions accepted the latest staffing
6 changes with approval, the changes in the Supreme Command staff."
7 Could you please explain to us General Karavelic --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are you reading from Madam Vidovic? I don't
9 know if we're on page 4 of the English version.
10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on page 4 of the
11 English version, that's where we are, and it is the first paragraph,
12 beginning with: "Such action."
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. General Karavelic, it says here that these battalions accepted
16 with approval the latest staffing changes in the Supreme Command staff.
17 Do you have any idea why these staffing changes are being
18 discussed at all and their approval or disapproval?
19 A. Because on that very day, on the 8th of June, 1993, that was the
20 day when the meeting that we mentioned earlier was held, where the order
21 of the Supreme Command was read out, and officially General Delic became
22 the first man in the army. On this day, the command of the 9th Motorised
23 Brigade was blockaded off, and surrounded and also, in part, the corps
24 command, my corps. When the deputy commander of that brigade, Ramiz
25 Delalic Celo, as one of the key protagonists, one of the ring leaders in
1 terms of disobedience, when he came to the corps command the situation
2 evolved or, rather, the objective was for the corps command and of this
3 one brigade to be made by force to take their side and not accept these
4 staffing changes, or, in other words, nothing was accidental. These were
5 all actions taken by men who were close with General Sefer Halilovic, and
6 wanted him to remain the first man of the army.
7 Q. Thank you, General, for your answer.
8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number for
9 this document.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
11 please be given an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will become exhibit
13 number 1331.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Please tell us, if you remember, what happened with these units
17 in June and July and throughout the summer of 1993, if anything?
18 A. Those units were increasingly with their actions and the things
19 they did, they were increasingly acting outside the chain of command. On
20 the other hand, the 1st Corps command sent their documents as early as
21 May, before General Delic became the head of the army, so they sent
22 documents to the then commander, requests for these commanders to be
23 replaced and other men to be appointed in their stead. And following
24 this, after General Delic became the first man, they sent -- they renewed
25 these requests and there were persistent attempts to eliminate these
1 people who were outside of the chain of command.
2 Q. Do you remember what the position of General Delic was on this
3 issue, on these units and events?
4 A. Once he became the first man in the army and after I became the
5 corps commander, the 1st Corps commander, his position was the same as
6 mine. He supported my fully and tried as soon as feasible or as soon as
7 possible to resolve this issue with these men who were outside of the
8 chain of command.
9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be
10 shown document D938.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: While D938 is coming, let's just be absolutely
12 clear who we are talking about in your answer.
13 You said, They were increasingly acting outside the chain of
14 command. On the other hand the 1st Corps command, that's your commander,
15 sent their documents as early as May before General Delic became the head
16 of the army, so they sent documents to the then commander. That's to
18 And obviously Halilovic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And obviously Halilovic then didn't accede to your
21 request. That's why you sent another set to General Delic when he became
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And what steps did General Delic take to
1 remedy -- that is coming. Very well. I'm very sorry for putting this
2 question, Madam Vidovic.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will explore this
4 process in detail.
5 Q. I would now please ask you to look at this document.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, while the witness
7 is reading this, this is a document from the Main Supreme Command Staff
8 of 6 July 1993 addressed to the republican public prosecutor.
9 Q. Witness, just a short question for you. This document speaks of
10 the arrest and forced labour of five men, including Mr. Ljubomir Lukic.
11 Do you know what his position was at this time?
12 A. I think that at this time he was the deputy district military
14 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what the position of General Delic
15 was on these -- on this type of situation?
16 A. Well, he was professional. He acted as a military person, and he
17 sought to resolve this as soon as possible, if not possible by discussion
18 and negotiations then also by use of force.
19 Q. Before we broach that subject, that we will discuss later, I
20 would like to ask you this. You said that you had sent a request to
21 General Halilovic, then you said that later on you also sent a request to
22 Mr. Delic. Did you discuss this issue or contact anyone else regarding
23 this issue, and if so, with whom?
24 A. I discussed this in the corps command with my men and with
25 President Izetbegovic.
1 Q. Why with President Izetbegovic, if you recall?
2 A. Because he was the only person who had both de jure and de facto
3 authority and who could approve the use of force in order to resolve this
4 kind of situation.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness should now
7 be shown Exhibit 200 -- or, rather, could we please assign a number for
8 this document.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
10 please be given an exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1332, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
15 Exhibit 216. This is an exhibit that is under seal, so I would move
16 to -- could we please move into private session. And, Your Honour, I
17 will ask a part of the question in private session, something that
18 relates to this matter.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 7856-7857 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is the
14 analysis of a year's operation of the BH army.
15 Q. There is no date on this document, Witness, could you look at the
16 right top corner of this document. Do you see number 3 and the year?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this moment we
19 should look at the bottom of the document to see who signed it. The last
20 page, I mean, in English and in Bosnian.
21 Q. As you see, it was signed by General Delic - I am saying this for
22 the record - and I would now like to go back to the beginning of the
23 document. To draw the witness's attention to certain passages.
24 This document describes the situation as he found it. You
25 remember during proofing I showed you this document and you read it in
1 detail. I should now like to look with you only at certain passages
2 because we don't have much time.
3 Do you agree that under the heading situation encountered, we
4 have an item that says: "Absence of clearly defined aims of combat
5 insufficient or deficient functioning of the authorities and assistance
6 to the army and leadership of the army an armed combat, disrupt the
7 system of command and control in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
8 below that it says the staff of the Supreme Command has not properly been
9 established and another item says fighting two enemies at the same time.
10 What would you say about this document?
11 A. When you read all of it it speaks volumes. When I read this it
12 is quite enough. It says the objectives and the platform of armed combat
13 and defence of the country against aggression have not been provided,
14 have not been developed and put on paper by the Supreme Commander or the
15 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
16 It is quite eloquent, when it speaks of the problems and failure
17 of authorities to function, especially the passage concerning failure to
18 provide the basic necessities to the army that are necessary for its
19 functioning and fighting disrupted system of command and control, we
20 mentioned that, but it is developed here. And then it says fighting two
21 enemies at the same time.
22 All these are key issues, vital issues, prerequisites without
23 which the commander of the Supreme Staff was unable to chart a clear
24 course, which to follow and define the best way to conduct armed combat
25 and defend Bosnia-Herzegovina against aggression.
1 Q. Does this document reflect reality as it was?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we have an
4 exhibit number for this document.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document is admitted into evidence. May it
6 please be given an exhibit number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the document will become exhibit
8 number 1333.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 Yes, Madam Vidovic.
11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, looking at the time,
12 I should like to finish at this point for today. I know we have five
13 minutes left, but I am about to move to another subject that I am
14 reluctant to interrupt as soon as I start it. It requires extensive
15 comment from the witness, and I don't think there is any point in having
16 him start and stop.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: I don't know what have you in mind,
18 Madam Vidovic, but I was curious to know what was the end of the story
19 with Celo and Caca and the steps that General Delic took. Now, if you're
20 not going to pursue that question tomorrow, then you might just finish
21 this off with the witness for today.
22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I planned to deal with
23 that issue down to the smallest detail, as well as the issue with the use
24 of force tomorrow.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suspect that Judge Harhoff is satisfied with
1 your answer.
2 We'll then take a break today and knock -- and reconvene tomorrow
3 at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, same courtroom.
4 Thank you very much. Court adjourned.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of
7 March, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.