Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                           Friday, 20 June 2008

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 10.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Good morning, everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 7     you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours, this is case number

 9     IT-05-87/1-PT, The Prosecutor versus Vlastimir Djordjevic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

11             And good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  I

12     would like to have the appearances, from the Prosecution.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I am Tom Hannis, Senior

14     Trial Attorney on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor.  I'm joined

15     today by Patricia Neema, on my right, a trial attorney.  On my far right

16     is Mr. Scott Love, one of our interns, and to my left is our case

17     manager, Iain Reid.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Your Honour, Dragoljub Djordjevic for Defence,

20     with counsel for accused Djordjevic, and accompanied with me is my

21     co-counsel, Mr.  Djurdjic, and my legal assistant, Ms. Marie O'Leary.

22     Thank you.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  And welcome to you and good morning

24     to you also, Mr. Djordjevic.  I take it you can understand what we're

25     saying through interpretation?  That's very good.

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 1             Ladies and gentlemen, we are here today for the Status Conference

 2     in this case.  We had the last Status Conference on 22nd February, as I

 3     recall, and, as you know, we are supposed to meet in these conferences

 4     every 120 days.

 5             We have circulated an agenda for the meeting today.  And let me

 6     quickly resume that on the agenda we have a brief review of the pending

 7     motions.  We would like to look as number 2 on the agenda on other

 8     developments since the last Status Conference.  As point number 3, I

 9     would like to be briefed on the level of disclosure, and -- and as number

10     4 on the agenda, I would like to have a discussion about the preparation

11     for trial.  And then we will have other matters.

12             Is this acceptable to the parties or is there anything else that

13     we need to include on the agenda?

14             MR. HANNIS:  Acceptable to me, Your Honour.  I have nothing else.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That's very good.  And Mr. Djordjevic, I suppose

16     you have it the same way since these issues were actually discussed at

17     the 65 ter conference yesterday.

18             But Mr. Djordjevic.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have nothing

20     further to add for the time being, and we'll see in due course.  Maybe

21     we'll add something later on, but this will depend on these proceedings

22     here today on this Status Conference.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

24             Well, let's get on with it then.  The first point on the agenda

25     is a review of the pending motions, and I believe that we have three or

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 1     four pending motions on our table.  One is the motion to amend the third

 2     amended joinder indictment, with annexes that we have received in due

 3     course -- in due time, sorry.  And we are now in the process of examining

 4     the new amended indictments and the annexes, and I believe that we will

 5     be able to hand down our decision somewhere in the second week of July.

 6             I still need to consult the two other Judges in the Bench, but

 7     the aim, as far as the Chamber -- this Chamber is concerned, is to -- to

 8     be able to hand down a decision on the third amended joinder indictment

 9     somewhere in the second week of July.

10             Then we have access motion -- Defence motion for access to all

11     audio proceedings in Milutinovic, and that, needless to say, is something

12     that the Milutinovic chamber will determine so that is beyond my

13     jurisdiction.

14             The third issue is the notice on the expert reports, under Rule

15     94 bis, and I have been told that there is an attempt by the Prosecution

16     to seek leave to respond to that reply.  Is that correct?

17             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, we were going to seek leave to reply to

18     the Defence response to the motion to -- regarding our motion to amend

19     the indictment.  That was the one they were going to seek leave to reply

20     to.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Sorry, I was -- I overlooked that.

22             But I think you have been instructed by our senior legal officer

23     that you can just file your motion and then attach the -- the reply that

24     you want to file.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  We can put those two together then?

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 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, yes.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  The practice varies from chamber to

 3     chamber.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No.  We need to save time and there's no reason

 5     to waste time.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So just come forward with your request and attach

 8     the reply to it.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  We will do that.  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And, finally, there is also a motion for access

11     to materials in Milutinovic after 21st November 2007, and that, I guess,

12     is also something that is with the Milutinovic Bench.

13             That is as far as I can take it regarding the pending motions,

14     and if none of the parties have anything to add, then I suggest we just

15     move on.

16             If we go to the second point of the agenda, I was looking to just

17     have a look at what has happened since the last Status Conference, and I

18     guess the most noticeable event is the filing of the Defence response to

19     the expert reports, and we will have a look at that in due course.

20             As for disclosure, I have been led to understand that -- that the

21     disclosure is complete, both on Rule 66(A)(i) and 66(A)(ii).

22             Is this correctly understood, Mr. Djordjevic, or are there still

23     outgoing issues regarding disclosure?

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] We are still waiting for certain

25     confidential materials to be disclosed from us from Milutinovic, et al

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 1     trial which have not been disclosed to the present day and I'd also like

 2     to say that, as far as certain decisions and rulings from November last

 3     year onwards that you have made, they were acted upon four months later

 4     so that in fact we received most of those exhibits quite recently.  Of

 5     course, they have been disclosed, but as I say, we're still awaiting the

 6     confidential reports from the Milutinovic trial, so that's the only thing

 7     that I can tell you at present.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand.  But as far as I have been

 9     informed, the delay in relation to those documents has to do with Rule 70

10     permissions so that is going to take the time that it is going to take

11     and I suppose that the Milutinovic Trial Chamber is pressing ahead in

12     order to obtain those permissions under Rule 70 as soon as they can.  As

13     soon as they get the permissions, you will be given the material.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  That is in conformity with

15     the rules not a matter for discussion, but what I want to state is this,

16     actually what I said a moment ago, that it will certainly have a

17     reflection on the efficiency of the proceedings because the Defence needs

18     a minimum amount of time to enable our client to have a fair trial and a

19     proper Defence.  That is what this is about.  And the day before

20     yesterday we were disclosed 38 audiotapes which we have to listen to, so

21     you can imagine how much time and effort is needed for that alone, and

22     I'd just like to indicate the fact that for our part, as far as the

23     efficiency of the proceedings are concerned, there certainly won't be any

24     problems expect for the need to be given a minimum amount of time to

25     prepare Defence case.

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 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We understand your concerns, Mr. Djordjevic.  The

 3     issue of the lack of resources is not something that is specific to the

 4     Defence.  The Chamber also is struggling with -- with finding resources

 5     to -- to go through everything in time.

 6             But I can assure both parties that we will not press the speed of

 7     the trial preparation beyond what is required.  I'll get back to this in

 8     a minute or two and you will see that we are now in a position to

 9     indicate with more precision when the trial is going to start, and I will

10     have to say that this is something that I think all parties will have to

11     respect and do their utmost to ensure that they are being ready for trial

12     when the case is supposed to start.  But I will get back to that in a

13     couple of minutes.

14             MR. HANNIS:  Judge, before we go on, I wanted to address one of

15     your questions concerning the disclosure.  You ask about 66(A)(ii).  As

16     far as the statements of witnesses, not all that disclosure has been made

17     because we have not yet filed our list of witnesses we intend to call at

18     trial pursuant to Rule 65 (E), I believe.  So that process hasn't begun

19     yet because we don't have a finalised witness list of witnesses to be

20     called at trial.  I didn't want to mislead the Court.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No.  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.  Of course I'm aware

22     of the fact that the final witness list has not been made yet but I hope

23     you are in the process of putting that list together because you will be

24     called to present it quite soon.

25             Rule 68, I don't know if there's anything that needs to be said

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 1     here.  The Prosecution is under an ongoing obligation to disclose

 2     exculpatory material that is in its possession, and of course, if the

 3     Defence is aware of any exculpatory information that might be out there

 4     which is still not in the possession of the Prosecution, you are

 5     certainly called to notify the Prosecution of this, and then by way of

 6     communicating with the Prosecution to seek to get that information if you

 7     cannot get it yourself.

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is what we're

 9     doing, and for the moment I think we will succeed in obtaining all the

10     exculpatory material which go to the advantage of the Defence, and as far

11     as we're concerned we will do what is necessary for our part when the

12     time comes and when we have all the exhibits that the Prosecution is

13     going to disclose to us, because I consider that there is certainly more

14     such material and I expect that to be disclosed, new exculpatory

15     material, which would help the Defence.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Of course.  But just that my experience is from

17     other trials that frequently there is an issue that relates to the fact

18     that the Prosecution is not in possession of exculpatory material that

19     has been identified by the Defence, and this gives rise to friction time

20     and again because the Prosecution is then saying that it not supposed to

21     do the job of the Defence.  That's why I'm saying if you are aware of

22     material that could be exculpatory, then I suppose you can -- the first

23     thing you would do is try to seek to obtain that information by yourself,

24     but if you can't get it, then of course get in contact with the

25     Prosecution to -- to encourage the Prosecution to actually seek it and

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 1     put it forward to you.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.  That

 3     was the intention of the Defence, and the main goal of the Defence is, of

 4     course that our client at all events, if he is responsible for any

 5     violations and if he is to be held accountable that he should be held

 6     accountable for only those acts that he should be held responsible for

 7     and not for others that he is not and should not be responsible for, so

 8     that is the principle of conduct of each and every Defence team and ours

 9     included, so we will insist upon that and we hope that we will meet with

10     understanding on the part of the Prosecution when it comes to exculpatory

11     material and exculpatory facts, exculpatory evidence and exhibits and the

12     need to approach those materials, and so if the Defence cannot access

13     them directly we'll certainly try to do so with the help of our

14     colleagues across the way there.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That is good to hear.

16             If I then move on to the issue of inspection of materials in the

17     possession of the Prosecution, I understand that there has been an

18     inspection and that there was an issue regarding the provenance of some

19     of the material identified by the Defence.  But can I just ask the

20     parties if this problem has been dealt with and is no longer an issue.

21             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is with great

22     satisfaction that I should like to inform you that we have resolved the

23     problem and that we had this first instance inspection yesterday, and if

24     the need arises in the future, I'm quite sure that we're not going to

25     encountered any problems in that regard, no problems from the Prosecution

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 1     and Mr. Hannis and his associates.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic, and let me

 3     use this opportunity to thank you both parties for what appears to me to

 4     be good cooperation.  Good cooperation between the parties is essential

 5     to the good development of the trial when we get there.  So I'm very,

 6     very grateful to both parties for showing the will to cooperate and to

 7     get this trial ahead.

 8             Then there is an issue, if I move on, on motions to present

 9     evidence under Rule 92 bis and ter and quater.  However I would expect

10     had this to be a matter for the Trial Chamber in the end, so this is a

11     bit premature to raise it at this point, but I have in my mind that I

12     would like to invite the parties for a couple of 65 ter meetings in

13     September just immediately prior to the trial and that's where perhaps we

14     could have a look at these issues again in order to provide a maximum

15     preparation for trial to the Trial Chamber.

16             As regards notice of alibi and special defences under Rule 67,

17     which is also something that we should pay attention to at this stage, I

18     would like to repeat the agreement that we had last time, that notice of

19     such special defences or alibi has to be given at least two weeks before

20     the deadline for the Prosecution's submission of its pre-trial brief.

21             Now, that leads me to the third point on the agenda; namely, the

22     preparation for trial.

23             Do you have a calendar before you, each of the parties?  Does the

24     registry have a calendar that we can borrow to the parties?  Is there a

25     calendar available on the screen somehow?  Can you find it, because I

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 1     need to go through some dates with you.

 2             Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Could you show the Defence how to get

 3     there, so that we all have a calendar in front of us.

 4             Thank you very much, Madam Usher.

 5             The information that we have now is that given the developments

 6     in other cases before this Tribunal, and I'm talking about the Zupljanin,

 7     Stanisic trial and the Lukic trial, it seems as if we are next in line,

 8     so I think that it is very likely that I can say that -- sorry, in all

 9     likelihood this trial is the next new trial to start.  You were informed

10     at the 65 ter meeting that the trial certainly will start before the end

11     of this year and that there was a possibility that it might start

12     sometime before or after the 1st of November.  The calculation that I

13     have been able to make in respect of the time when there would be an

14     available Trial Chamber is that this trial will start on Monday, the 13th

15     of October, beginning by the pre-trial conference on that day, and the

16     trial will start either on the following day or soon thereafter.

17             This means that the Prosecution's pre-trial brief shall have to

18     be submitted at least six weeks before that.  And let me say one thing

19     about the expected date for the commencement of the trial, that I just

20     need to sort it out with the President, and as soon as I have done that,

21     we will issue a Scheduling Order for the pre-trial conference to be held

22     on Monday, the 13th of October or very shortly thereafter.

23             If we then look at the calendar, I would propose that the

24     Prosecution files its pre-trial brief on Friday, the 22nd of August.

25     This is I don't know how many weeks ahead from now, but I would imagine

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 1     that it would give the Prosecution enough time to -- to get it ready.  If

 2     you are being given the Trial Chamber's decision on the third amended

 3     indictment no later than Friday, the 11th of July, then you have, one,

 4     two, three, four, five, six weeks after that to prepare and submit your

 5     pre-trial brief.  And given the limited scope of the substantial changes

 6     that you have made in the new indictment, I think that it is not

 7     unreasonable.  But let me hear your opinion.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             I appreciate that.  I was going to start out making a request for

10     mid September but now I see this trial date may be mid October, I would

11     like to ask for something a little beyond the 22nd of August and actually

12     I will go straight to my target date, Your Honour.  I would like to ask

13     for Monday, the 1st of September.

14             The reason I say that is back in February when we had the last 65

15     ter and Status Conference at that time I think we still had a hope and

16     belief in the MOS case, Milutinovic et al, that we would finish the

17     evidence before the end of March.  As it turned out we didn't finish

18     evidence until the 22nd or 23rd of May so that put us basically seven

19     weeks behind where we thought we would be at this time.  As you know,

20     Judge, our final written briefs in the MOS case are due on the 8th of

21     July with oral arguments on the 22nd.  Myself and the team working on

22     that case are pretty fully engaged on that process as you might imagine,

23     it being almost a two-year trial with over 240 witnesses called and I

24     don't know how many thousand exhibits we have in evidence.

25             I know that's pressing the deadline, but from my conversation

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 1     with Defence counsel yesterday about the possible dates we might be

 2     looking at, I think they too are interested in having as much time as

 3     possible.

 4             Now one thing I would propose to Your Honour, to speed the

 5     process and hopefully make the trial more efficient, was if you would be

 6     willing to give us until the 1st of September to file our pre-trial

 7     brief, I think we can file our witness list and our exhibit list prior to

 8     the 1st of September, because that's something we can get done more

 9     quickly and easily than writing the pre-trial brief.

10             Another problem is, after two years, much of my staff on this

11     case are fairly exhausted and people have arranged for vacations the

12     first two weeks or so in August with non-refundable tickets and

13     reservations in hot spots like Croatia, et cetera where it's hard to

14     replace it.  So that just a personal me I throw in as well, Your Honour.

15     I'm basically asking for ten days beyond what you proposed.  That's my

16     pitch.  And if I misstated the Defence position, I'll let them address

17     it.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much, Mr. Hannis.

19             I must say that as much compassion I have for the staff situation

20     in your team, I am unwilling to deviate.  And the reason why I'm

21     unwilling is that I don't want to see this trial being led into the

22     almost unavoidable slip of time that we always experience.  If I'm going

23     to promise the President that this trial can and will start on Monday,

24     the 13th of October, then there is no leeway given for us to change the

25     dates of submission.

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 1             You will notice that Friday, the 22nd of August is actually seven

 2     weeks before the opening statement and the pre-trial conference.  But I

 3     think, given the experience that we have, that it is still wise to

 4     maintain the 22nd of August as the date in which we ask the Prosecution

 5     to file its pre-trial brief.  It's one week after the recess, and, as I

 6     say, it's seven weeks after the submission of the handing down of the

 7     decision on the indictment.  And, again, let me stress that if you get

 8     the decision, if you receive the decision by the Trial Chamber on the

 9     third -- on the recent amended indictment as late as on Friday, the 11th

10     of July, I hope it might be before, but that's the latest date, then the

11     substantive changes that have been proposed is really not very dramatic,

12     to put it mildly.  We're speaking about the inclusion of two or three

13     incidents covering, I think, 18 new murders, but it doesn't change the

14     nature and the scope of the case at all.

15             So already, at this moment and after having struggled with the

16     Milutinovic case for two years, I think are you pretty much on top of

17     what you want to say against Mr. Djordjevic, and I see no reason why you

18     should be unable, even given the time constraints and the pressure on

19     your team, not to start now and be ready to hand down the -- the

20     pre-trial brief in -- in two months from today.

21             So I'm -- unless you have very convincing reasons, I will stick

22     to the date that I have proposed.

23             MR. HANNIS:  I see you're firm, Your Honour, but let me make one

24     last pitch.  How about Monday, the 25th?  That gives us at least the

25     weekend, those additional two days, that would still put us seven weeks

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 1     before the proposed start of the trial date.  That could make a big

 2     difference to us.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I accept that.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So, Monday, the 25th of August, it is.

 6             MR. HANNIS thank you.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  It is so decided, as we say in international

 8     negotiations.

 9             Thanks, Mr. Hannis.

10             That leads me to the Defence team.  And as I've already said,

11     what we have in mind, is Monday, the 15th of September for you to file

12     your pre-trial brief.  Is that okay?

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is not okay.

14     However, I also have to explain why.

15             It is not that we do not have sufficient funds or resources or

16     staff.  It is also -- we also have an issue with insufficient time, and I

17     have to say when talking about the equality of arms in these proceedings,

18     and I mean between the Prosecution and the Defence, we are in a rather

19     bad position because Mr. Hannis's team, working on the current Kosovo

20     case, is far more aware of the evidence and exhibits and they've also

21     been on site, and I just have to say that the Defence, as I mentioned at

22     the very beginning, and as I have been stressing here all the time, we

23     wish to show respect for all participants in these proceedings but not to

24     the prejudice to our client.

25             The only thing that I can say is that I doubt that we will be

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 1     able to fully prepare for the trial, which means that even if we were not

 2     to use our vacation time, we would not be able to prepare for the defence

 3     of our client by 15 September.  So this is something that I fear and I

 4     have to -- when the Defence case is concerned, in such a complex case as

 5     this one.  I'm not saying that Mr. Hannis is to blame that they are

 6     better prepared and they could begin with the trial as of tomorrow, but

 7     I'm afraid, Your Honour, that the Defence will not be able to provide a

 8     good defence by the dead-lines that you have set forth.

 9             And even with the pre-trial briefs and the times when they have

10     to be submitted and the dead-lines that are to follow that, we will try

11     to meet all our obligations within the dead-lines that you have

12     envisaged.  However, I have to say that I'm not fully -- I have not been

13     able to form a full picture of the case and I have to say that my team

14     has been very busy working very hard from the very start but we have a

15     lot of problems with the lack of time for preparation of the Defence

16     case.

17             That's all that I would like to say, and it is absolutely not any

18     wish on my part to obstruct these proceedings, because my client, too,

19     would like to have the trial as soon as possible and justice served.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

21             I am sorry to hear that you feel that you are unable to prepare

22     your defence within the time-limits that I have indicated, but I must

23     also raise with you the issue that is on my mind; namely, that the

24     flip-side of the Prosecution's work with the MOS case for two years is

25     that for your client, most of the evidence that you know will be coming

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 1     up in the trial against your client is known, in the sense that it has

 2     been already presented in the Milutinovic case.  So you are in a much

 3     better position than most other of your colleagues, because they haven't

 4     seen the evidence.  Now, in your case, you have seen the evidence, and so

 5     you have a much better idea of what is coming against you.

 6             Secondly, it is today, the 21st of June.  The proposed date for

 7     the start of the trial -- sorry, the 20th of June.  I'm always ahead of

 8     time.  It is the 20th of June today.  The proposed time for the beginning

 9     of the trial is mid-October.   I have indicated a date, Monday, the 13th,

10     in which I will consult with the President about -- I will consult the

11     President about this date, and my expectation is that it is either going

12     to be on Monday, the 13th of October or in the days immediately

13     thereafter that the trial will actually start.

14             That's four months from now.  And so the trial date is actually

15     four months ahead, which should give you ample time to -- to prepare.

16             Your Defence pre-trial brief is then due one month earlier, that

17     is, three months ahead from now.  And also there, I think, that you

18     have -- you're in a better position, as I said, than many of your -- your

19     colleagues in other cases, Defence counsels in other cases, because you

20     can always consult their pre-trial briefs, you can see what they had to

21     say at the time and you can assist the evidence coming against

22     Mr. Djordjevic.  So I don't think that -- that you are in a terribly

23     disadvantaged position to get pre-trial brief ready in three months from

24     now and to be able to start trial in four months from now.

25             So as I have been showing some sort of firmness with the

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 1     Prosecution, I will have to do the same thing with the Defence, and I

 2     hope that given the circumstances and time you still available to you and

 3     the opportunity you have to acquaint yourself with much of the evidence

 4     which will be brought at trial against your client, at this moment I hope

 5     that you will be able to be ready to go to trial on that day.

 6             Would you wish to reply?

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] We cannot respond to the Trial

 8     Chamber, because the Trial Chamber is the one that is leading this case.

 9     So we are there to comply with whatever deadlines you set, no matter how

10     much pain that may cause us.

11             But I just have to say that the Defence of course did not expect

12     to have any benefits that the Prosecution would not.  We expect to have

13     the same treatment, and of course that's the way that you have been

14     leading this, and I don't expect that that will change.

15             But I do need to stress again that we have not received all

16     materials yet.   I mean some confidential material.  And we have

17     submitted a motion where we stress this.  This was immediately before the

18     65 ter meeting.  So I have to say that the sooner we get this, the better

19     we will be prepared.

20             As for the advantage that you mentioned that we have as compared

21     to our other colleagues in the Milutinovic, et al team or the Kosovo --

22     the Kosovo case, as it were, I do not wish to comment on that, because,

23     of course, each Defence team has to deal with the situations that they're

24     in, and we will do the same.  And in any case, it is good that we have

25     the information that the Prosecution had at its disposal in the previous

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 1     case, but -- and we will have time to analyse these materials more than

 2     our other colleagues have had.

 3             And this would be all that I have to say, and I will end on this

 4     note.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

 6             Your remarks call me to make an observation about the impacts of

 7     the MOS judgement on this case, on our present case, because I, of

 8     course, understand immediately the logic that it would be nice to have

 9     the Milutinovic judgement handed down to us before we start trial.  It

10     would be nice to have the judgement before we submit the pre-trial

11     briefs.  It would be nice to have the Milutinovic judgement before we

12     decide on which witnesses to call and which witnesses to call under 92

13     ter or bis or 65 ter.  All these things would be very nice.

14             But if we have to wait for the Milutinovic judgement to come

15     down, then I think we will be in violation of Mr. Djordjevic's right to

16     an expedient trial.  Because the -- the reality is that although we might

17     expect to get the Milutinovic judgement rendered before or maybe shortly

18     after, I understand, maybe shortly after the opening of our trial, the

19     likelihood is that the judgement might be appealed and then we will have

20     to wait for another year or two, maybe not, but at least wait for some

21     further time until finally the Appeal Chamber judgement is handed down.

22     And if we were to wait for that to happen before we can begin the trial

23     against Mr. Djordjevic here, I think it would be unreasonable and, as I

24     said, a violation of his right to an expeditious trial.

25             So that is why we had decided to simply get on with it and we

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 1     will then have to make adjustments, if necessary, once we see the

 2     Milutinovic judgement.  If that calls for any adjustment to the

 3     indictment against Mr. Djordjevic, then I suppose that the Prosecution

 4     will move for that or maybe you will wish to move for a further amendment

 5     of the indictment or that certain counts be stricken or something of that

 6     kind, but let's cross that bridge when we get there and not concern

 7     ourselves too much with it.

 8             I think that the important thing is that the trial against

 9     Mr. Djordjevic begins as soon as possible and there is, in my view, no

10     reason to wait until we have the final decision from the Appeals Chamber,

11     if eventually the Milutinovic judgement is appealed.

12             So we have to start on the best possible foundation that we can,

13     and then, if necessary, we'll have to make adjustments as we go along.

14             That is as much as I would have to say about the beginning of the

15     trial.

16             Now, for the issue of witnesses, of course, under Rule 73 bis it

17     is for the Trial Chamber and not for the Pre-Trial Judge to determine the

18     number of witnesses and the number of hours allocated to hear each

19     witness.  By the way I intend to run this pre-trial is to prepare

20     everything for the Trial Chamber so as to be able to present a draft

21     decision to the Trial Chamber by the end of the pre-trial phase regarding

22     the number of witnesses and the number of hours, because I'm in a better

23     position now than the Trial Chamber will be in mid-October to discuss

24     with the parties how many witnesses and especially discuss with the

25     Prosecution how many witnesses you need and how much time you need for

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 1     each of these witnesses.

 2             So for that purpose I would seek to invite you, both parties, to

 3     one or two 65 ter meetings in September.  I don't think that it will

 4     affect in any way the Defence's preparation of its pre-trial brief

 5     because the number of Prosecution witnesses will have little impact on

 6     what you wish to put forward in your pre-trial brief.  But in the month

 7     of September and -- I would wish to call you for a couple of internal 65

 8     ter meetings, and the purpose of those meetings will be to sit down and

 9     have a look at your proposed list of witnesses and proposed time

10     allocated to this.

11             That will also have an impact on the estimated length of the

12     trial.  I understand that your case, including 20 per cent time set aside

13     for administrative business and equal time for the Defence to do

14     cross-examination, is somewhere between four and six months.  And -- but

15     we will have a much, much better idea when we see your witness list and

16     have a chance to go through it.

17             So in order to be in a position to recommend something to the

18     Trial Chamber by the end of my pre-trial phase, I wish to consult the

19     parties at that time, and I hope that you will be ready to go along with

20     that.

21             MR. HANNIS:  I think that will be very helpful, Your Honour.  We

22     can have a list in hand with number of projected hours for each witness

23     and mode of testimony, and I think that will be useful to all of us.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right, I think so too.  So Mrs. Murnane will call

25     you to those meetings once we get closer to the time.

Page 63

 1             I think that brings us more or less to the end of the agenda, and

 2     so what remains on my list is to address Mr. Djordjevic and, first of

 3     all, ask you Mr. Djordjevic, how are you doing?  Are you in good health?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.   I don't

 5     have any problems.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm very pleased to hear that, because if on top

 7     of the trial --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Me too.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- if you were also to suffer medical or other

10     kinds of problems, then it would be more than -- than I would wish for

11     anyone.

12             Is there, Mr. Djordjevic, any issue relating to your detention

13     that we should look into?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Nothing at all.

15     Everything is as usual, like for every other detainee.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

17             The next Status Conference will be held -- I don't know,

18     Ms. Murnane, could you help us out here.

19             It seems that the next Status Conference is just about the time

20     when the trial is going to start.

21                           [Trial Chamber and senior legal officer confer]

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The next Status Conference, I'm told, will be on

23     the 20th of October, which is a Monday, but that's on the very 120-day

24     limit.  So if the trial has not begun, which I expect that it will have

25     begun in the week that begins with Monday, the 13th October, but if for

Page 64

 1     any reason that the trial has not begun then, I anticipate that we will

 2     have the last Status Conference sometime in that week, between the 13th

 3     of October and the 17th of October.

 4             But, as I said, I suspect that the trial will have started by

 5     then.

 6             Do the parties have any other issues they wish to raise.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Nothing from the Prosecution.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

 9             Mr. Djordjevic.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  No, thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  This concludes this Status

12     Conference, and, as I said, I look forward to seeing the parties again

13     for 65 ter meetings in September.

14             This hearing is adjourned.

15                            --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at

16                           10.56 a.m.