Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                           Friday, 30 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  May I remind you of the affirmation that you made

 9     at the beginning of your evidence.  It still applies.

10             Mr. Djordjevic.

11                           WITNESS:  VETON SURROI [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:  [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.  I'll carry on from where I left

15     off on our last sitting.

16             Now, linked to the Serbian police force that expelled students of

17     Albanian ethnicity from the university, can you tell us what came before

18     that event and why the police took those steps.

19        A.   The students and the professors had gone to classes as the

20     regulations required.  However, they were not allowed to do so by the

21     police, and the police gave the reasons, that they had received orders

22     not to leave them -- not to let them go into the classes.

23             What preceded this wave of interruption of Albanian language

24     classes was the introduction of violent measures, the suspension of even

25     the last remaining autonomy which had been imposed by Serbian -- I'm

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 1     referring here to the application of violent measures applied by Serbia

 2     in July 1990.

 3        Q.   You mentioned the parallel system of education, and we're going

 4     to ask you briefly whether you agree with me on this:  That a modern

 5     state, the kind that Serbia was at the time and exercised sovereign

 6     authority over the province, could finance such a system within a system

 7     when we're speaking about education.

 8        A.   It's not relevant what Serbia can fund or cannot fund.  Kosova

 9     had its own institutions.  Its institutions were suspended through

10     violence, and, therefore, these institutions had to provide funding for

11     Albanian language education.

12        Q.   The students, you said, destroyed the technological faculty.  Do

13     you remember whether the police reacted on that occasion?

14        A.   At one moment, the police intervened and got everybody out.  The

15     police removed all those students who refused to leave the building.

16        Q.   When we're on the subject of, if I can call it, the parallel

17     system of education, in that parallel system of education was there any

18     place for citizens of other ethnicities living in Kosovo?

19        A.   There were some involved in the parallel system.  I'm referring

20     here to some other citizens.  There could have been, for example, Askali,

21     Roma, Turks.  The education which took part in Serbian language was

22     funded by the Serbian institutions.

23        Q.   Can I then conclude, and would you agree with me when I say the

24     following:  That it is correct that the Albanians after 1990 did not

25     recognise the educational system of the Republic of Serbia?  Would that

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 1     be correct?

 2        A.   I think that it is very clear that the introduction of the

 3     education system of Serbia in Kosova was an imposed system.  The Albanian

 4     citizens in absolute majority refused this imposition, this forceful

 5     imposition, and the system which came with it.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like the usher to show

 7     us a document on the agreed measures to apply the agreement of the 1st of

 8     September, 1996, which was signed on the 23rd of March, 1998, and on

 9     e-court, I think it's D001-0011 in the Serbian version; D000-0013 in

10     English.  That's not the right document.  Just a moment, please.

11             The number of the document is 0001-0001.  No.  No, it's not the

12     one on our screens.  I'll be asking for that one to be put up later on.

13        Q.   Mr. Surroi, can you see this document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Are you familiar with the document?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   And in English?

18        A.   I've not seen that document before.  Probably I have heard about

19     it or maybe I saw it in the press.

20        Q.   Would you now take a look and read out paragraph 4, since you say

21     that you're not familiar with this document.

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] We only have paragraphs 1 to 3

23     on our screens now, but we'd like paragraph 4, please.

24        Q.   May we continue?  My question is this:  You heard that the

25     Institute for Albanology was opened, that it started working, and I'd

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 1     like to know what this institute dealt with, the Institute for

 2     Albanology.

 3        A.   It's very easy to say or to assume what this institute deals

 4     with.  It deals with Albanian studies.

 5        Q.   How many people began working in the institute, and what

 6     ethnicity were they?

 7        A.   I don't know the number.

 8        Q.   Did those people have salaries at the time?

 9        A.   I believe that they were paid by the parallel system.

10        Q.   So that means when it came to financing, you're sure that it was

11     financed from the parallel system, you say, or do you think?  Do you know

12     or do you think?

13        A.   Yes, I'm sure.

14        Q.   Do you know that the Republic of Serbia and before that the

15     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had a fund for financing the

16     underdeveloped regions?

17        A.   Sir, you're talking about a period which is completely different.

18     You're speaking about a different time in Yugoslavia.  The Albanological

19     Institute began to be funded by the parallel system from the moment when

20     the work of the institutions of Kosova was suspended.  From that time on,

21     the work of those institutions then began to get funding from the

22     parallel system, including the Albanological system.  I'm talking here

23     about the period which starts from 1990.  You, on the other hand, are

24     talking about a fund for underdeveloped parts at the time when Tito was

25     in power.

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 1        Q.   At that time in Serbia.  At that time in Serbia too.  I don't

 2     think you heard me.  In 1998 do you know that a fund existed in the

 3     Republic of Serbia for financing the underdeveloped regions?

 4        A.   Probably.  Probably for development of a village in Serbia, but I

 5     think it would be cynical to say that there had been a fund for -- from

 6     Serbia for Kosova at the time when Serbia had occupied Kosova.

 7        Q.   Do you know that the Republic of Serbia, from that same fund,

 8     invested considerable resources into Kosovo at the time?

 9        A.   They could have invested those funds for the Serbian population.

10     Kosova as a country was paralysed at that time, so probably they had to

11     fund the police action or the action of other institutions to keep in

12     place this colonial regime in Kosova.

13        Q.   Do you know that at that time the Republic of Serbia fulfilled

14     all its international obligations linked to loans?

15        A.   Yes, because Serbia had occupied Kosova, which means that they

16     also carried over the loans of Kosova, the obligations that Kosova had to

17     other countries.  So Serbia had taken over probably these obligations of

18     Kosova, so probably Serbia did this toward the international financial

19     obligations -- institutions.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the Trial

21     Chamber to admit the document and give it a number, please.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be marked D00001, Your Honours.

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like to ask the usher to

25     bring up the next exhibit, that is to say, the previous document that was

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 1     shown on our screens, and it was D0001-0011 in Serbian and D0001-0013 in

 2     English.  That's the document.  May we have the English version, too,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Surroi, are you familiar with this document?  Have you

 5     ever seen it before?

 6        A.   I've not seen that document; however, I have heard about the

 7     meeting with the EU representatives.  I was informed by the EU

 8     representatives about this meeting.

 9        Q.   Mr. Surroi, I'd now like to ask you to take a look at this

10     document and to tell me whether there are -- whether there were any

11     reactions to this document and whether any of what is set out in the

12     document was actually put into effect.

13        A.   As far as I know, there was an act of goodwill by the EU to

14     assist in the process of normalisation of the educational system in

15     Kosova through the institution of educational institutions in Kosova.

16        Q.   So these resources, did they come to the place where they were

17     intended to go?

18        A.   I think that some work had started; however, at the time we had

19     the escalation of war.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Might this exhibit

21     be given a number by the Trial Chamber, and I'd like to tender it into

22     evidence.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It is received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00002, Your Honours.

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

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 1        Q.   Now, with respect to the demonstrations in Kosovo, I believe you

 2     remember that in Kosovo and Metohija it was both the Serbs and other

 3     ethnicities which demonstrated, and do you remember that those police

 4     reacted and that those citizens who demonstrated ended up in prison?

 5        A.   To my knowledge, the reaction of the police was not equal.  In

 6     terms of returning educational buildings, there was a demonstration;

 7     however, the reaction of the police did not resemble at all towards these

 8     demonstrators.

 9        Q.   Do you know that the Serb citizens were also taken to trial on

10     the basis of the public law and order regulations and also pursuant to

11     the criminal code of Serbia and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo, as it

12     was at the time, for taking part in the demonstrations?

13        A.   To which case are you referring?

14        Q.   Generally speaking.

15        A.   The most severe reaction of the Serb authorities was demonstrated

16     in the demonstrations organised by Mr. Draskovic and the democratic

17     opposition in Serbia that was demanding new elections, and at that time

18     one citizen was killed in Belgrade.  Afterwards, Mr. Milosevic placed the

19     tanks in the streets of Belgrade.

20             I would like to remember -- remind you, however, that this was a

21     most severe demonstration and the largest of the Serbian opposition,

22     where one person lost his life.  And every life is important, but in

23     Kosova, however, many more people were killed in less -- in smaller

24     demonstrations compared to that one in Belgrade.

25        Q.   Of course I'm sorry about all that, too, but what I wanted to

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 1     hear from you is linked to the demonstrations that were held only in

 2     Kosovo.  So when I'm referring to that, I'm referring to the Serb

 3     citizens, and you asked me about a specific case.  Now, I'd like to

 4     remind you that at that time in the opposition, you had members of the

 5     Serbian Radical Party and Dr. Vojislav Seselj, an accused before this

 6     Tribunal.  Do you know that at that time he, Mr. Seselj, because of the

 7     demonstrations in Gnjilane spent more than 60 days in detention and the

 8     deputy of the president of the Serbian Radical Party, Tomislav Nikolic,

 9     also, who at this point is the president of the Progressive Party.

10     That's the new party and that's what it's called.  Do you know about any

11     of that?

12        A.   I remember this event.  I don't remember the days and the dates,

13     but I do remember the facts.

14        Q.   Now, in relation to the refugee crisis, I'll go back to that

15     briefly, and we're talking about the period before the so-called summer

16     offensive, as you referred to it, of these police forces, but until the

17     very end it wasn't clear whether it was the Serb police forces or whether

18     the army was involved there, too, because in your testimony you used the

19     words "military action," and then you mentioned the police.  But I'll

20     come back to that in due course, in just a moment.

21             Anyway, you mentioned the liberation of Obilic.  When you say

22     liberation of Obilic, you mean the KLA which attacked Obilic, and you

23     said "liberate Obilic," and after that it withdrew.  Now, what I'm

24     interested in is:  Do you know that -- not Obilic.  I meant, not Obilic,

25     Orahovac.  I apologise for having misspoken.

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 1             Now, do you know -- well, everything that I was saying was

 2     referring to Orahovac.  Do you know that on that occasion, 60 Serb

 3     citizens were seized, were abducted, just prior to that summer offensive?

 4        A.   Now, are you talking about Rahovec or Obiliq?  I do not know the

 5     details of the activities of one or another party, but when I spoke of

 6     Rahovec, I described the created atmosphere immediately after the combat

 7     activities on behalf of the Serbian forces, after Rahovec was taken by

 8     the KLA, because the KLA had entered Rahovec.  And with the ambassador

 9     and Mr. Shala, we visited the town.  We saw people who were scared, we

10     saw houses that had been burnt, and, therefore, we asked for the

11     religious leader of Rahovec, who was a well-respected person at that

12     time, and he was executed in the yard of his house.

13        Q.   I'm sorry for that event, but what my question was is:  Do you

14     know that during that action the KLA seized 60 Serbs?  And I assume as a

15     journalist at the head of a respected paper at the time and worked as a

16     journalist, do you have that knowledge, and do you know about it or not?

17     That's my question.

18        A.   I don't know the exact figure, but I know that on this occasion

19     we visited the Serbian neighbourhood in Rahovec and we spoke with the

20     Serbs about these issues that you raised.

21        Q.   But what I'm asking you is:  Do you know whether anybody was

22     seized?  You might not know the number, but do you know that this event

23     took place, of this event?

24        A.   I told you that we did hear about cases of kidnappings.

25        Q.   Thank you.  That makes it clearer now.  Now, did you hear that

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 1     after that a certain number of citizens of Orahovac who were Serbs, or,

 2     rather, their bodies were found in the Volujak pit, the Volujak cave?

 3        A.   I heard of a case when bodies were found in several places in

 4     Kosova, including Voljak, after the war.

 5             Excuse me.  I don't know whether these people were identified or

 6     not, these victims.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Well, then, I can't ask the next question, which was

 8     to have been whether you knew that they were citizens from Orahovac.  But

 9     anyway, my next question now is this:  It will be linked to the mistake I

10     made a moment ago when I misspoke and I spoke about the thermoelectric

11     power station of Obilic.  Do you know that the KLA at one point took

12     control of the part of the installations of the thermoelectric power

13     system of Obilic and cut off the transport to the coal that was supposed

14     to be taken to the thermoelectric power plant?

15        A.   I saw on the news about the KLA units in Obiliq; however, I'm not

16     familiar with their activities.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Have you heard on the same news bulletin that nine

18     workers of Serb ethnicity had been kidnapped on that occasion?

19        A.   The problem with the news at that time was the source, and it was

20     very difficult to verify the credibility of events, such as this one in

21     Obiliq.  What we were able to do at that time was to report that

22     according to the Serb media or Serb authorities or according to official

23     sources of Serb authorities, nine or eight or seven, whatever the number

24     of people, have been kidnapped.

25        Q.   Did you have your own sources of information?

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 1        A.   I would like to remind you that it was very difficult to

 2     penetrate to those areas -- in those areas where the conflict was

 3     ongoing, especially in those areas controlled by the Serb forces or

 4     encircled by the Serb forces.

 5        Q.   Had not the KLA occupied that area and expelled those people?

 6        A.   This issue is disputed.  As you know, a person can occupy a point

 7     during one day and then withdraw the next.  The KLA was not an army; it

 8     was a guerrilla movement and was not able to capture or control part of

 9     territory.

10        Q.   Can I then conclude that you did not have your own sources of

11     information to check that event?

12        A.   To tell you the truth, I didn't follow each and every combat

13     activity in Kosova.

14        Q.   Let us move on to a different subject.  You mentioned the law

15     banning transactions in real estate, and you said that Albanians were

16     prevented by this law from selling or buying real estate, and the purpose

17     was to prevent them from buying property from Serbs.  Now, I would like

18     to ask you, was this law in effect, and was it applied throughout the

19     territory of Serbia?  Do you have knowledge of that?

20        A.   If I remember it correctly, and this is just for purpose of an

21     anecdote because I don't give it much relevance, at this time there was

22     an initiative by Albanian lawyers to examine the constitutional aspect of

23     this law.  In Vojvodina, there was no such restriction on buying and

24     selling property between different ethnicities, which means that this law

25     was drafted specifically to prevent the buying and selling of property in

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 1     Kosova.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I'll have to ask you this, then:  Do you know that

 3     that particular law does not mention transactions in real estate between

 4     different ethnic groups?  And do you know that the Serb lawyers, too, had

 5     initiated a constitutional review of that law?

 6        A.   Well done by the Serb lawyers.  It's a good thing they did that.

 7        Q.   Do you know that that law did not contain provisions referring to

 8     ethnic communities and transactions between different ethnic communities?

 9        A.   The implementation of this law meant that the Albanian who wanted

10     to buy property from a Serb in Kosova, he had to ask the Ministry of

11     Finance in Belgrade for approval.  And this ministry, then, in consulting

12     with other ministries, would give the approval.  I don't know if this is

13     a direct implementation of the law or something else, but this is

14     something that those who study laws and regulations should deal with.

15     And it's not relevant for our discussion here today.  This was a

16     discrimination in transactions, and it was backed by law, by the law in

17     question.

18        Q.   I have to ask you now, are you going to agree with me that all

19     the citizens of Serbia who wanted to buy or sell real estate needed to

20     ask for that approval in Serbia proper and in Vojvodina, as well, and

21     without such an approval, any contract on the purchase of real estate was

22     not valid?

23        A.   I don't think so.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on to a different subject, the ethnic

25     composition of Kosovo.  You are talking about roughly 1990.  Do you know,

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 1     when was the last time when the Albanians participated in a census?

 2     Which year was that?

 3        A.   In 1981.

 4        Q.   Do you know about a census in the 1990s?

 5        A.   There were attempts to carry out a census in 1991; however, at

 6     that time, due to the circumstances, a large number of citizens refused

 7     to participate in this census.

 8        Q.   Did not Albanians consider that to be an advantage for them,

 9     being in the majority?

10        A.   The statistics imposed by a country that uses force and violence

11     and that was considered by the majority of Kosovans as foreign in Kosova,

12     and this fear, general fear, of Albanians in Kosova meant that the

13     registration in 1991 could be manipulated by the Serb authorities in

14     order to create fictitious statistical data that would later be used in

15     different shapes and forms.

16             This fear built up after a campaign by the Serb media, claiming

17     that the increase of the birth-rate of the Albanians is a product of a

18     doctrine that intends to over-populate a territory.

19        Q.   I could perhaps even agree with you that that was one of the

20     possible viewpoints, but I would like to move on to the part of your

21     statement where you say there were about 85 per cent ethnic Albanian

22     citizens to 95 per cent ethnic Albanians and 5 per cent Serbs.  I would

23     like to know the basis for that statement and how well-founded, how sure

24     you are about this estimate, since you put it in your statement.

25        A.   There's a contradiction in your question.  You cannot make a

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 1     precise forecast because forecasting in its nature can never be precise.

 2     This, what I'm talking about, is a projection on demographic growth.

 3     Demographers at the time agreed on this issue, and these figures were

 4     calculated on the basis of the natural norm of birth-rate since 1981.

 5     And based on the mortality rate and also based on the migration rate, you

 6     could come to the conclusion that sometime in 1985 the majority was

 7     Albanian.  In the registration -- in the census of 1991, though the

 8     Albanians did not take part in the census, the Serbs took part.  And

 9     again, I will point out here that I'm speaking in terms of demography;

10     there was a trend of increased birth-rate but also a trend of migration

11     and movement.

12        Q.   On this topic, my last question:  You will agree with me that the

13     birth-rate in Kosovo, speaking of the ethnic Albanian community, for the

14     past ten years has been the highest in Europe.

15        A.   Maybe not only in the last ten years but even more.  These were

16     demographic trends that other nations went through earlier.  This is not

17     a specialty for the Albanians only.  I would like to remind you that in

18     early twentieth century, a birth-rate of this size was evident for

19     Norway, and this birth-rate, after social and economic development,

20     reached the trend of the average European country.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I asked this because of its relevance to the period

22     only.  I'll now move on to another subject.  You said that in July 1990,

23     the members of the parliament of Kosovo adopted a so-called

24     constitutional declaration - when I say "members of the parliament of

25     Kosovo," I mean ethnic Albanian MPs - proclaiming Kosovo a republic

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 1     within the Yugoslav federation.  Tell me, who were those members of the

 2     assembly at that time?  I would like an answer in general terms.

 3        A.   They were those who were elected at that time.  At the time, we

 4     did not have direct elections; however, in those conditions these people

 5     were elected as members of parliament, who represented Kosova, as it was

 6     at that time.

 7        Q.   Were they ethnic Albanians?

 8        A.   Most of them were Albanians; however, there were also Turkish

 9     citizens who had signed that declaration.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I heard the translation, and I

11     believe that it is a mistake.  It's not "Turkish citizens"; it's

12     "citizens of Turkish ethnicity."

13        Q.   You mentioned September of 1990 and the movement for independence

14     and the referendum for independence.  Did only ethnic Albanians

15     participate in that referendum, or did all citizens participate?

16        A.   To tell you the truth, I have not counted the participants;

17     however, by chance the neighbour of my mother - she is a Serb - she also

18     took part in the vote and voted in favour of the independence of Kosova.

19        Q.   Can you tell us the name of that neighbour?  Last name?

20        A.   Mohn.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... Albanian?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In May 1990, there were parliamentary elections and

24     presidential elections for Kosovo and Metohija, and Dr. Ibrahim Rugova

25     had a land-slide victory in the presidential election.  How many members

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 1     of parliament who were elected in that election were of Serb ethnicity,

 2     if any?

 3        A.   There were Turks elected as members.  There was no Serb elected;

 4     however, their seats were provided as vacant in the parliament of Kosova.

 5     These were seats designed for the citizens of Serbian ethnicity.  So if

 6     they wanted to be elected, they could be elected for those seats.

 7        Q.   Do you know and will you agree with me that at that time under

 8     the federal criminal code, such activity related to the organising of

 9     parliamentary elections in circumvention of the existing legislation was

10     found to be a criminal act, a subversion of the federal system and the

11     constitutional order?

12        A.   There was no federation as such at that time.  From the decision

13     of the Badinter Commission, the Yugoslav socialist republic had died, or

14     judicially this republic had been declared as dead.  That period, from

15     the moment when the death of this country was declared until the birth of

16     the new states, is a provisional period, a transitional period, during

17     which the federation, which you called as Yugoslav socialist republic,

18     was a violent creation -- was a forced creation set up to justify the

19     military actions of the Serbian regime, as well as to cover up the

20     occupation of Kosova.

21             At the moment when socialist Yugoslavia was declared as dead was

22     a moment in which all the peoples and the units that existed within that

23     federation at that time to make -- to take decisions on their own future.

24     Kosova, on 2 July 1990, and also through its referendum, declared the

25     will of the people of Kosova, and this will was in favour of

Page 341

 1     independence.  So I think it's totally irrelevant to refer to what other

 2     institutions might have decided at that time.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you again.  Under the laws of the Federal Republic of

 4     Yugoslavia, do you know that such activities were a criminal act?

 5        A.   Once again, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not set up on

 6     the basis of the will of the people of Kosova, and the citizens of Kosova

 7     have not accepted this creature.

 8        Q.   I fully understand that.  I'm not going to repeat my question

 9     again because we have that law here, and in some other part of this trial

10     we will tender it as evidence.  So I'm not going to insist any more.

11             I will only ask you, as a follow-up to my previous question,

12     since you are well known as a man working for democratic values for a

13     long time, I'll ask you:  Do you believe elections to be democratic if

14     only ethnic Albanian citizens participated in the elections?  You

15     mentioned a couple of ethnic Turks but ...

16        A.   I would reformulate my answer.  On the basis of the OSCE

17     standards, these were not free and fair elections; however, again, on

18     basis of the standards, those elections were even freer and fairer than

19     those held in Serbia, even though those elections took place under

20     occupation conditions.  However, what should never be doubted is that

21     there was an expression of will by the citizens for independence and the

22     people, even though the conditions were so bad, were willing to

23     contribute to holding those elections.

24             It's just like a soccer game.  If you go to the stadium and still

25     refuse to play football, then the consequences are there for you to

Page 342

 1     suffer under FIFA regulations.

 2        Q.   I don't think FIFA rules were applied in this case, but let's

 3     move on.

 4             You mentioned the Bertelsmann Research Foundation.  Since you

 5     participated in its work, who is the founder and the financier of this

 6     organisation?

 7        A.   It's the Mohn family.

 8        Q.   Tell me, if it was really a case of legitimate negotiation

 9     between the delegations of Serbia and the delegation of Kosova - you

10     mentioned Rhodes and some other places; you mentioned Simic and other

11     participants from the Serb side - but as far as I remember, and I hope

12     you will agree, that both of them were members of the opposition at that

13     time.  They were not represented in the government, not even this new

14     democracy about which you said that Mihajlovic, who was the leader of

15     that party, had access to Milosevic, they did not participate in the

16     government too.  They were in opposition.

17        A.   I think something should be corrected in your question.  I did

18     not say that these were negotiations between Kosova and Serbia.  These

19     were "track 2" negotiations, that is, negotiations in the second channel,

20     if we could put it that way.  So people who were interested in such talks

21     or, let's say, civil society, people thought that they could use this

22     opportunity to contribute to the creation of a kind of framework for what

23     should have been later official negotiations.  These meetings, this

24     dialogue which took place with the assistance of Bertelsmann, were never

25     considered as a process of negotiation.

Page 343

 1        Q.   Thank you.  We have clarified this point, and I will have no

 2     further questions on that.  I had to cover this ground because of the

 3     response that is on the record from your previous testimony.

 4             I will now go back to the case of the Jashari family.  You said

 5     that Adem Jashari was one of the founders of the KLA, and I agree about

 6     that, and you said that before that he was a well-known activist in this

 7     area.  You meant Prekaz and Drenica and that area.  Activist of what

 8     kind?

 9        A.   As far as I know, he could have been an activist of the

10     Democratic League or any other party.  But what I could say was that he

11     was a person well known in those -- in that area.

12        Q.   Thank you.  On this point, when we're talking specifically about

13     Adem Jashari, do you know that he was under investigation by the

14     competent authorities at the time, it was a criminal investigation, and

15     that he was even convicted?

16        A.   I did not have such information at that time.  It's clear that

17     Mr. Jashari was a person wanted by the police.  In the final analysis,

18     the siege proved this.  As far as the conviction is concerned, this was

19     mentioned by Mr. Milosevic at the meeting he had with us.  He described

20     him as criminal.

21        Q.   That's right.  I agree with you there.

22        A.   That's what --

23        Q.   But he said that, that Milosevic said that, not that he did or

24     didn't, but that Milosevic said that.

25             You said that members of the Jashari family were called upon to

Page 344

 1     surrender, not surrender their arms but to surrender.  We know that they

 2     did not do that.  Now, do you know that there was fighting between the

 3     forces of law and order and the Jashari family?  That's my first

 4     question.

 5        A.   I have no doubt that there was an exchange of firing.

 6        Q.   Do you know that several policemen were seriously wounded on that

 7     occasion?

 8        A.   I do not doubt it either.  Mr. Jashari had declared earlier that

 9     he would fight till his death.

10        Q.   [Albanian on English channel) [Previous translation continues]

11     ... that at those journalists of yours were very frequently accompanied

12     journalist from foreign news agencies, and that they were valuable

13     assistants to the foreign journalists for them to be able to pass through

14     the blockades and check-points along the roads.  Now, who had all those

15     blockades?  Who had control of the check-points?

16        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... vice versa.  The foreign

17     journalists were a big help for our journalists to get access because the

18     check-points on those roads were also controlled by the Serbian police.

19     There were also check-points set up by KLA, no doubt about that.

20     However, I don't believe that the KLA obstructed the access to the media

21     because I think that it was in the interests of the KLA to ensure that

22     these views, these pictures, reached the world.

23        Q.   Now, while we're on the subject -- well, I'll move on to another

24     area, the negotiations, starting with G15 through G5, the Rambouillet

25     negotiators and the negotiations in Paris.  I think I'm going to surprise

Page 345

 1     you with the very few number of questions I have on that topic, but I do

 2     believe that they are key questions.

 3             Now, did you ever, since 1997, as a delegation - and I'm asking

 4     you that because you took part in all these events, G15, G5, Rambouillet,

 5     Paris - as a delegation, therefore, a delegation of Albanians, Kosovars,

 6     Albanians from Kosovo, did you have any lesser demand than full

 7     independence for Kosovo and Metohija, either through peaceful

 8     negotiations, democratic institutions, up to a referendum, or, as some

 9     members thought, by armed struggle?  Did you ever have a lesser demand

10     than complete independence?

11        A.   Not only from 1997 but from 1991, there was a consensus in our

12     society that Kosova should be independent.  This consensus was reflected

13     by us who were engaged in negotiations, and we tried to defend that

14     consensus in the best possible way.

15        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  It's quite clear, in view of the

16     referendum that was held, but I wanted to hear it from you.

17             Now, were you a participant in all these negotiations directly,

18     as a representative of the Albanian nation, independently, you said.  So

19     when I'm asking you that, I'm talking about G15, G5, Rambouillet, and

20     Paris.  You yourself, personally.

21        A.   Yes, I took part in all of them.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I also have to tell you that I'm grateful to you for

23     the answer you gave with respect to the Rambouillet meeting, and later,

24     the Paris one too.  Now, the essence of what I want to say is this:  You

25     clearly said that the representatives of the Serb delegation were offered

Page 346

 1     an agreement by which the state would give up its territory - you didn't

 2     say that but that is what is contained in the provisions of the

 3     agreement, deferred, of course - and that the state would be bombed

 4     unless the agreement were accepted, which in my opinion was contrary to

 5     international law and customs and represents quite literally coercion,

 6     brutal coercion, with the threat of the greatest force behind it from the

 7     greatest power; or to use the language used by the army, an ultimatum

 8     before a war.  So would you agree with me there that that was what the

 9     situation was when it came to the Serb negotiators in Rambouillet, and

10     then especially so subsequently in Paris?

11        A.   I think that you have a description which is closer to the

12     description of your officials, a description they stuck to for many

13     years.  I'd like now to give you a description which is not that

14     conventional.  The Serbian delegation which represented a state that had

15     exercised systematically, and was continuing to do that, violence against

16     people in Kosova, so that country was given the opportunity to end this

17     systematic violence by signing a contract with international community

18     and the representatives of Kosova.

19             That contract would give Serbia the occasion to have a limited

20     army and police presence for a limited period of time, a process for the

21     protection of the Serbian cultural and religious heritage, a process for

22     the protection of Serbian citizens who were in a minority in Kosova, a

23     process for rebuilding the democratic institutions in which the Serbian

24     citizens would be represented, and a peaceful process through which

25     Kosova would ultimately take its decision on its status.  This would have

Page 347

 1     been done on the basis of all of this contract.

 2             This interpretation would mean that Serbia would be rewarded for

 3     taking a democratic step and for deciding to put an end to the regime of

 4     occupation and repression of Albanian people in Kosova.  Otherwise, if

 5     Serbia would refuse to take such a democratic path, would have been

 6     penalised, that is, the genocide which was being prepared by Serbia in

 7     Kosova would have been penalised.  So this is a description which I think

 8     is closer to the truth.

 9        Q.   I wouldn't agree with you on that point, since the heritage of a

10     modern civilisation, particularly when we talk about democracy, implies

11     negotiation, first of all, talks, and so on, whereas your answer contains

12     what the previous position was, that the Albanian nationality had a

13     clear-cut stand in 1990 for complete independence, regardless of what

14     would happen.  But I don't want to enter into polemics with you on that.

15             I'd just like to ask you this:  Did you hold negotiations with

16     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on that occasion or with Serbia?  I

17     mean Rambouillet and Paris, there.

18        A.   Formally, you could describe it as you wish, but it's difficult

19     to say to what extent the delegation was a delegation of federal

20     Yugoslavia or Serbia.  But Montenegro was not represented there, even

21     though Montenegro formally still belonged to that unnatural federation

22     between Serbia and Montenegro.  Therefore, realistically speaking, there

23     was only one address for the negotiations, and the address was in

24     Belgrade.  The man who was there was Slobodan Milosevic.  He was the only

25     person who was the man charged with taking decisions on his country.

Page 348

 1        Q.   But we can conclude that you nonetheless held negotiations with

 2     Serbia, and Slobodan Milosevic was president at that time of the Federal

 3     Republic of Yugoslavia, and that President Milosevic at that time didn't

 4     have the legitimacy to negotiate on behalf of Montenegro, which was also

 5     there as a state within the then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and that

 6     the President of the Republic of Serbia at that time, Mr. Milan

 7     Milutinovic, who took part in the negotiations throughout.

 8        A.   At the end of negotiations in Paris, Mr. Milutinovic shrugged his

 9     shoulders and said he could not take any decision because it was his boss

10     who took decisions on those issues, and his boss was Milosevic.

11        Q.   Did he say that too?

12        A.   He said these words to the mediators.

13        Q.   And finally, linked to the agreements - Rambouillet, Paris, and

14     everything that you went through with the delegation of Albanians from

15     Kosovo - I'm going to ask you this:  In testifying today before this

16     Tribunal, can you really consider yourself to be objective and unbiased

17     as a witness, whereas you represented the interests of only the Albanians

18     throughout, Albanians from Kosovo?  Isn't that, in a certain sense, a

19     conflict of interest?

20        A.   My coming here to this Tribunal is in the quality of a witness.

21     I have come here to testify.  I'm here to be asked by you, and I'm here

22     to answer your questions.  I have not come here to demonstrate an absence

23     or presence of conflict of interest.  I've come here to tell you whatever

24     you ask me for, without any discrimination to the truth.  So this is why

25     I'm here.

Page 349

 1        Q.   Of course everybody here would like that to be the case.  Now,

 2     Mr. Surroi, I'm going to leave that topic and move on to another area

 3     with other questions.

 4             Precisely because of the answer I've just been given, I'm going

 5     to skip over a whole series of questions that I had intended to ask you,

 6     and what I'm now going to ask you relates to what you stated earlier in

 7     other cases that are considered relevant cases, your testimony in the --

 8     well, in a case that was known as the Milosevic case, the Milosevic

 9     trial, and your testimony in the Milutinovic et al trial.

10             Answer me this:  Since I have studied the transcripts from those

11     trials, tell me why, then, didn't you mention the story about the

12     thrown-away ID cards that you saw on the streets of Pristina and about

13     the house of your childhood friend, the scene when you entered the house

14     of your childhood friend and saw the hot cake and so on?  How come it's

15     only after all this time that you happen to remember things like that, if

16     I can call them details, that you didn't mention in trials which, during

17     the pre-trial, were considered to be far more important than what we're

18     talking about now, the period that we're discussing now?

19        A.   There's no -- there is no specific reason.  Memory is not a

20     straightforward line.  The memory occurs in different contexts.  So it's

21     in this context, if you ask me for many other issues, I could talk to you

22     about other issues which I've not mentioned on any other occasions.  My

23     life experience is much broader than the framework of questions and

24     answers in this judgement.

25        Q.   You said that the Albanians rejoiced but were also concerned when

Page 350

 1     the NATO bombing started.  Now I'm going to ask you this:  Do you know

 2     how many civilians were killed in Kosovo?  I'm not going to ask you about

 3     ethnic Albanians.  Just generally, how many civilians were killed in

 4     Kosovo, at least roughly speaking, a rough estimate?

 5        A.   Most of the people who were killed were civilians in Kosova.

 6     Most of the people killed by the Serbian forces were civilians.

 7        Q.   I think that it was clear to you that the context of my question

 8     was the bombing by NATO.  That's what I was asking you about.

 9        A.   Yes.  The gravest incidents in regard to the NATO bombing was in

10     the village of Korisha, where more than 100 people were killed.  The

11     proportion of people killed by the NATO bombing to the number of people

12     killed by the Serbian forces is clearly -- is huge, so if you compare

13     this number of 100 people to more than 10.000 people killed.  So you can

14     see the context, as far as numbers are concerned, we're talking about.

15        Q.   Do you know that in Kosovo several thousand Serbs disappeared and

16     their remains were never found.  Some were; some weren't.  But anyway

17     that number disappeared.

18        A.   The number of those who disappeared is huge.  I'm speaking about

19     citizens of Kosova.  The majority of those missing are Albanians, and

20     there is quite a number of Serbian citizens of Kosova who are missing.

21     According to the information that I last read, the number in total of

22     those missing and who have not been identified or found is 2.500 of both

23     ethnic groups.

24             The Serb civilians are difficult to be found due to the fact that

25     their bodies were not put in a collective grave.  The Albanian bodies, by

Page 351

 1     those who deal with these issues, can be easily identified in the mass

 2     graves in Serbia.

 3        Q.   My question is this:  Do you know that the number of civilians

 4     who were killed during the NATO bombing - I'm not going to use -- I'm not

 5     going to say whether they were killed by Albanians or the NATO pact - but

 6     do you know that the number of Serbs in relation to the population, the

 7     Serb population, in Kosovo percentage-wise is much higher than the number

 8     of Albanian civilians who disappeared?  I'm not going to say whether they

 9     were killed by the Serb forces or NATO.  In relation to the figures you

10     mentioned and statistics, would you agree with me there?

11        A.   I was not clear whether you're referring to the victims of

12     bombing or to the kidnapping of civilians.

13        Q.   I'm talking about general things.  A dead man, a dead man is a

14     very sad thing, whether the person was killed as a result of NATO's

15     action, depleted uranium, or by somebody's hand in retaliation for some

16     other death or for political reasons.  I'm not going into any of that.

17     I'm just looking at the number of people killed in one way or another.

18     Their bodies were not found; they went missing.

19             So what I asked you in that context is this:  Would you agree

20     that the number of Serbs who were killed in Kosovo in relation to the

21     overall number of Serbs living in Kosovo, the Serb population is many

22     times more than the number and percentage of Albanians killed in relation

23     to the percentage of Albanians living in Kosovo, so in relative terms?

24        A.   I wouldn't say so.  And you should divide the combat activities

25     into several phases.  We deal here with details that I'm not quite

Page 352

 1     familiar with.  I'm not that precise when it comes to statistics in terms

 2     of these events.  From 1998 to March 1999, then the phase from the

 3     beginning of the NATO campaign, 24th March-June 1999, and the

 4     redistribution [as interpreted] phase and the entire summer of 1999, so I

 5     think you will agree that there existed an organised state instrument

 6     that persecuted Albanian citizens.  There were combat activities.  There

 7     was war that damaged, cause damage to the citizens, and there existed a

 8     retribution movement that also caused damage to a number of citizens of

 9     Serbian ethnicity, and I think this is more important than the

10     statistics.

11        Q.   Thank you for the answer anyway.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Now, I think I would require

13     another 15 to 20 minutes, Your Honours, to complete my cross-examination,

14     and I think that this is a good time, before I move on to another area,

15     to take the break.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  We will certainly accommodate that suggestion,

17     Mr. Djordjevic, and we will have our first break now, resuming at 5

18     minutes to 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the legal officer to

23     bring up the map of Kosovo.  That's 65 ter 00044.

24        Q.   Mr. Surroi, we now all see on the screens the map of Kosovo.  We

25     see that in the central part of Kosovo there is Pristina, although it's a

Page 353

 1     bit to the east, but we see the town of Pec in the centre.  Since you

 2     worked as a reporter, as a journalist, I suppose you are aware that just

 3     before the summer offensive, there were barricades and roadblocks on the

 4     Pristina-Pec road in 1998.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Looking at this map, kindly tell us, since you still lived there,

 7     how was one able to go to Pec from Pristina at that time in one's own

 8     car, without encountering any roadblocks, army check-points, guerilla

 9     fighters, et cetera?

10        A.   To travel without problem at the time was impossible.  There were

11     blockades, check-points, patrols everywhere.  Therefore, any movement in

12     Kosova took three or four times more time than usual.  I already told you

13     that before.

14        Q.   I understand, but let me be more precise.  If you were, for

15     instance, an ethnic Serb and you want to arrive safely to Pec and you

16     know there are roadblocks would you agree with me that from Pristina you

17     would go first to the north, to Zvecani; and then via Sandzak, Tutin you

18     would go to Rozaj; and then from Rozaj via Kuljaj you would go to Pec.

19     That's what ethnic Serbs did to avoid the roadblocks.

20        A.   This route was possible, but as I told you, it took four or five

21     times longer to make that travelling.  It was difficult for both Serbians

22     and the Albanians to travel around at that time.

23        Q.   Was it the same with the Suva Reka-Pristina road in 1998, just

24     before the summer?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 354

 1        Q.   Would you agree with me that ethnic Serbs travelled from Suva

 2     Reka to Pristina by going first south towards Prizren, Strpce, Urosevac

 3     and only then to Pristina, instead of going directly from Suva Reka to

 4     the north towards Pristina?

 5        A.   I don't believe it would be helpful in this trial to provide

 6     estimations about routes in Kosova.  But I could also give you details

 7     about a route which I followed in order to go to Junik together with

 8     Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Shala.  We had to go from Prishtina towards south

 9     in the direction of Ferizaj, and then we took the western direction for

10     the Sharr mountains.  In the direction from Prizren, we were stopped

11     several times by the Serbian police.  Then from Prizren to Gjakova , we

12     were stopped by Serbian police, and then from Gjakova, we went to Junik.

13     This route under normal circumstances would take only one hour and 45

14     minutes.  At that time we did it -- even though we were provided access

15     in most of the cases, despite the stops by the police, we reached our

16     destination after five hours.  So I think you should agree that it was

17     difficult for any Kosovar citizen to travel around at that time.

18        Q.   As you mentioned, Ambassador Holbrooke and you were traveling to

19     Junik.  Did you travel in cars with diplomatic licence plates?

20        A.   Yes.  They were in the US embassy car.

21        Q.   In this connection, can I conclude that you were not supposed to

22     have any problems, either with Serb police check-points or the KLA

23     check-points?

24        A.   As you know, under normal circumstances there should have been no

25     problem; however, we were still stopped.

Page 355

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the Trial Chamber to

 3     admit this map and to assign it a number.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00003, Your Honours.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   Mr. Surroi, during the NATO air-strikes, were civilian facilities

 8     targeted, such as private houses of Albanians, factories, et cetera?

 9        A.   One of the bombs fell in the post office of Prishtina.  This was

10     the only bomb that fell in Prishtina and in a civilian facility.  As I

11     told you earlier, there were two or three or more incidents in which the

12     columns of people with tractors were bombarded.  These tractors, this

13     convoy of people, in the case of Korisha, these were people who were

14     expelled from their village, from Korisha.  They were forcefully ordered

15     to go towards Albania.  Then they were forced to go back, and while they

16     were stopping at the village of Korisha, they were bombarded.

17             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the legal officer to

18     bring up photographs of the centre of Pristina, D001-2868/2869, first

19     2868 and then 2869.

20        Q.   Mr. Surroi, you see here three photographs.  Can you give us a

21     very brief comment on what you see?

22        A.   The photo on the left is the Kosova post office building.  Now

23     it's a building used by Kosova government.  That building suffered damage

24     in the window, in those -- the post was bombarded at night.  The post is

25     pictured on the right above.  That night when the post was shelled, I was

Page 356

 1     about 1 kilometre away, as the crow flies, so I heard the bomb when it

 2     fell.

 3             The photograph on the right-hand corner is a shopping mall in

 4     Prishtina.  The windows were also broken of this facility as a result of

 5     the explosion.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask, the next photograph,

 7     2869.  D001-2869.

 8        Q.   Could you comment briefly.

 9        A.   This house is next to the post office, which was hit as a result

10     of the bombing of the post, and a very old family from Prishtina was

11     killed.

12        Q.   All these photographs depict that one house?

13        A.   This is a street, an old street in Prishtina with old

14     infrastructure.  Now, whether it is just one house or more, that I don't

15     know.  But I know that in this particular house there were civilian

16     victims of this bombing, civilians, members of an old family from

17     Prishtina who were killed during the explosion.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Surroi.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender these two

20     sets of photographs and to have numbers for them.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber will receive the two sets of

22     photographs as they've been displayed, including the text.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, D001-2868 will be assigned D00004;

24     and the other one, which is identified as D001-2869, will be assigned

25     D00005.

Page 357

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] May I now ask for a video-clip

 2     to be played of the ABC television, marked as D001-2870, and another

 3     video-clip from Studio B, a local Belgrade television.  Since we know

 4     that the witness understands and speaks English fluently, I would like

 5     him to listen to the recording, and once we have seen the video-clip, I

 6     would like his brief comment.  He has already said a few words about this

 7     without any question from the Defence, but I would like a comment on the

 8     video.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It's not ABC; it's

10     BBC.

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  I should intervene regarding the minutes of the

12     trial.  It is not BBC; it is ABC broadcasting television.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Thank you.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Surroi, a moment ago you were talking about this incident.

18     My first question:  Was this a convoy of Albanians going back to their

19     houses, who were not on their way to Albania?

20        A.   I cannot answer your question.  This is a documentary.  You

21     cannot hear any description of the incident, and you cannot identify

22     whether this refers to one village or another village, so I cannot give

23     you any specific answer.  However, two things come on the surface from

24     this documentary.

25             First, throughout the bombing campaign, I was in Prishtina, and I

Page 358

 1     was able to follow even the Serb media in relation to what was going on

 2     at the time.  It is not honest to show on the Serb national media, to

 3     demonstrate a concern for the Albanian nation when at the same time the

 4     same state demonstrated terror over the Albanian population.  But this

 5     all was war propaganda, and that cannot be explained in rational terms

 6     here.

 7             Secondly, the question posed here is, why were these citizens

 8     forced to leave their village and to form this convoy of tractors?  That

 9     answer is very simple.  They were forced to leave their homes.  This

10     violence was being exercised in continuity for years by the Serb police,

11     by the Serb authorities.  Eventually, many of these villages were

12     emptied, following direct orders of police commanders, Serb police

13     commanders, who knocked on the doors and told the people to pack up their

14     things and leave in a matter of minutes.

15        Q.   If you looked at this video-clip carefully, did you notice

16     members of the Serbian police carrying the wounded, a Serb policeman

17     carrying an Albanian child, Serbian policemen helping people evacuate and

18     find shelter?

19        A.   Again, you're talking about a documentary that is out of context,

20     which is not defined in terms of time and space, illustrated by

21     radiophonic communication between pilots and bases.  So I see the purpose

22     of this documentary and, as I said, it is a product of a period of time

23     when propaganda was being launched.  As I said, I understand the purpose

24     of the propaganda, but I don't justify it.

25        Q.   Mr. Surroi, the truth of this documentary is precisely a document

Page 359

 1     about a horrible truth, not propaganda.  I don't want to say horrible to

 2     whom and why.  This video-clip was filmed on the 7th of April, 1998.

 3     It's the environs of Meja village.  It's a convoy of Albanian refugees,

 4     and on that point I'll agree with you, who were on their way to their

 5     homes, targeted by NATO from 1330 until 1530, for a full two hours,

 6     although the pilot said to his base, as we could hear clearly from this

 7     video-clip - the base was called Mother - the pilot said he thought he

 8     could see civilians, and, nevertheless, he received orders to attack.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I will not comment, myself, on

10     this video-clip.  I will just ask the Trial Chamber to admit this

11     video-clip and to assign it a number.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, please.  I

13     cannot make any comments because other bodies should be there to define

14     the quality of this documentary.  Since you mentioned the village of

15     Meja, this village is known not for the NATO bombing.  It is better known

16     because of the execution of civilians, of all those men who were

17     separated from their children, of the elderly people separated from the

18     convoy and executed.  More than 100 people from this village, from this

19     incident, were -- are still missing, and their families cannot bury their

20     remains.

21             So I pose here the same question:  What made these people leave

22     their villages and set off for Albania, escorted by the Serb forces?

23     What made them return from Albania, back?  It's not their own free will.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, the video has some difficulties

25     about its understanding and interpretation at the moment.  The witness

Page 360

 1     does not recognise the location.  Clearly, the soundtrack has nothing to

 2     do with what is being depicted in -- both in time and in circumstance.

 3     The Chamber would certainly be prepared to have the video-clip marked for

 4     identification at this stage, but it will be necessary for other evidence

 5     to indicate what is the subject matter of the video and how it relates to

 6     our concerns in this case.

 7             So if you're content with that, we'll mark it for identification

 8     at this time, but we have flagged that we will need other evidence to

 9     enable us to know what it is that is being depicted.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll agree with you, Your

11     Honour.  The Defence, too, had a great deal of problem in identifying all

12     this material, but we will, in the time we have, to ensure that we have

13     exhibits and material relating to the concrete exhibit.  But for the

14     moment, we are satisfied with what we've just heard Your Honour to say.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We'll have this video-clip marked for

16     identification.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned D00006, MFI, Your Honours.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have another

19     video-clip shown on e-court.  It is D0001-0696.

20        Q.   Mr. Surroi, I think you are familiar with this footage.  You

21     haven't got it on your screen yet.  Anyway, it's the visit by Ambassador

22     Holbrooke to the village of Junik in 1998, in the month of June.  Yes,

23     here we have the footage.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I think that will be enough.

Page 361

 1        Q.   You can see yourself on that footage.  Do you agree that that was

 2     you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what I'm interested in is this:  What was the

 5     purpose of Ambassador Holbrooke's visit to the village of Junik in 1998,

 6     in June?

 7        A.   At that time, professor Agani, Mr. Shala, and I asked Ambassador

 8     Holbrooke to see, in concrete terms on the field, what was going on in

 9     Kosova.  As I said, our journey took us quite awhile, four hours, to

10     arrive to that part of Kosova, western part, where fighting was going on.

11     So we wanted to see with our own eyes what was going on in those parts

12     where the war and combat activities had escalated.

13             At the time, in June and July of that year, we - that is, part of

14     the Kosovan delegation - were trying to unify the political positions of

15     the Albanians of Kosova so that -- with the aim to unify the two wings -

16     the wing of the passive resistance headed by Mr. Rugova and the armed

17     wing, the KLA wing.  So we had information about the developments within

18     the ranks of the Kosova Liberation Army.

19             So at that time, we went to the village of Junik.  We were

20     received by this organised military structure.  We sat and had a talk.

21     We were informed about what was going on in that particular village, and

22     we left.

23        Q.   On that same occasion did you happen to visit, for example, some

24     headquarters of the Serb police and army that was in the war zone?  Did

25     you go there together with Ambassador Holbrooke when you went to visit

Page 362

 1     representatives of the KLA?

 2        A.   Before arriving at part of Gjakova municipality, we stopped at a

 3     junction between Prishtina, Prizren, and Gjakova, and we came across an

 4     armed and fortified roadblock of the Serbian police forces.  Upon the

 5     insistence of Ambassador Holbrooke, the two of us got out of the car and

 6     spoke with the commander of the police forces who was controlling that

 7     part of the area, and he explained to us the position of the police, the

 8     Serbian police, and the Serbian state, their tactics, and their -- then

 9     the purpose of their presence in that part of the region.

10        Q.   Now, that commander of the Serb police, did he introduce himself

11     to you?

12        A.   Probably he did, but I do not remember the name.  When I asked

13     him as to why he was there, he said that he was there to defend the

14     Catholic village from the KLA that, in his words, was a fundamentalist

15     and Islamic military organisation.  But when I said to him that the

16     commander of that area, the KLA commander was a Catholic one, he said --

17     and when I told him that many KLA leaders were of Catholic religion, he

18     then turned to a different topic.

19        Q.   In that connection, I'd like to ask you this:  Would you agree

20     with me when I say that the activities of the Serbian police at that time

21     in that area was to deblock the roads and communication lines without

22     entering into Albanian villages, or not, when we're talking about the

23     Pec-Djakovica road via Decani, for example?

24        A.   If I clearly understood your question, in that period of time,

25     and as I said I'm not well informed of all the armed activities, but if

Page 363

 1     my recollection serves me right, there was an order at the time to create

 2     a corridor, a 5-kilometre corridor, from the Albanian border, a security

 3     corridor, security belt.  So from Decan to Gjakova, the whole border area

 4     of 5 kilometres was comprised.

 5             The aim of this roadblock was, in my opinion, to control this

 6     border belt, extending to Has from the direction of Prizren, and then

 7     joined with the mountain part of Gjakova and Decan.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  --

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

11     exhibit.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Page 38, line 5:  Instead of "KLA leader," I

13     would like to say "KLA soldiers."

14             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] As I was saying, I'd like to

15     tender the video into evidence, and I'd like it to be given a number.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00007, Your Honours.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Along with the note that it was

19     without audio-tape, without an audio signal.

20             And as I'm drawing to the end of my cross-examination, I'd just

21     like to say that all the D4 and D5 exhibits linked to the Defence case,

22     I'd like to say that the Defence is only asking the admission into

23     evidence of the photographs, without the text below, which is in Serbian,

24     in the Cyrillic script.  So just the visual images.

25             And bringing my cross-examination to a close, I'd just like to

Page 364

 1     return to Pristina, and as the witness said, the retribution of the Serbs

 2     after the first night of the bombing or, rather, the beginning of the

 3     bombing, by NATO, we all remember full well that he said in his testimony

 4     that those who had icons were spared; those who did not have icons were

 5     not spared.  And the Prosecutor directly, when it came to the question of

 6     icons, used the adjective "Orthodox."

 7        Q.   Now, in that connection, I would like to ask the witness the

 8     following:  Can he give us an answer as to whether, except for the

 9     Albanians who are Muslims, whether there are Christians, Catholic Muslims

10     and even Orthodox --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Albanians, interpreter's correction.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   -- Catholic, Christian, Albanians, and Orthodox Albanians?

14        A.   In Kosova, there could be two Albanian Orthodox whom I know.  As

15     far as the Catholics are concerned, their share of the population could

16     be around 10 per cent.  Mr. Djordjevic, the icon is not part of the

17     Catholic religious tradition.  The icon exists in most of the cases in

18     our religion traditions, starting from the Byzantine times, so it exists

19     in the Orthodox religious rites.

20             Therefore, the display of the icons on those days in Prishtina

21     was an intention to display religious affiliation.  So the protection

22     which was provided through the icon was through this religious

23     identification.  So it was used as a means of protection, used by the

24     Serbs to protect themselves from the wave of destruction, and in fact it

25     was good for them to use this means as a way of protecting themselves.

Page 365

 1        Q.   Yes, I will agree with you that the icons are, first and

 2     foremost, a reflection of the Orthodox traditions and Byzantine culture

 3     and so on.  But let me remind you that Catholics also have images of Mary

 4     and Christ and that those, too, are images or icons, iconos from the

 5     Greek, which means image, picture.

 6             Now, what about the aethiasts?  There are quite a few communists

 7     among the Serbs in Kosovo, more than Albanians.

 8        A.   I did not see any display of the five-cornered star -- five-edges

 9     star to be used on those days as a means of protection.

10        Q.   Perhaps a picture of Josip Bros Tito.  All right.  I don't want

11     to go into that now.

12             But I'd like you to explain a phenomenon, which I don't

13     understand, and I'll wind up with that, and I see this today, a

14     phenomenon which is not very clear to me, but I'm sure that you'll have

15     some explanation that will wind up my cross-examination for today.

16             Far before the conflicts broke out, I went to Kosovo many times

17     as a lawyer and even during the war, and I have been Defence counsel, as

18     well, for this Tribunal.  But what I would see all the time, even before

19     the conflict, were flags of the Republic of Albania in Kosovo, displayed

20     in Kosovo, at weddings, at any joyous occasions or other ceremonies,

21     perhaps sad ones, too, or elections; I would see Albanian flags flown in

22     Kosovo, the Republic of Albania, I mean, and I still see that in western

23     Macedonia, for example.  I see elections, and the flag flown is the flag

24     of the Republic of Albania.  Do you think that is normal for the

25     attributes of another state and country to be displayed in another state?

Page 366

 1     I'd like to hear your explanation because I consider you to be a man of

 2     integrity and a well-educated man.  So could you explain that phenomenon?

 3        A.   Thank you for your consideration.  Initially, it was the flag.

 4     Then the state came.  The Albania flag, as it is, displayed from the

 5     times of Skanderbeg and held up during the Albanian wars against the

 6     Ottoman Empire.  This was a flag which existed before any form of

 7     Albanian status existed.  The fact that the Republic of Albania in a

 8     natural way adopted this as the national flag does not mean that the

 9     Republic of Albania has adopted in a natural way the whole Albanian

10     nation.  Part of the Albanian nation not in a natural way has remained

11     outside the borders of Albania, which means that those who remained

12     outside Albania had the right to use the national flag, just like the

13     state used it, the Albanian state used it as its national symbol.

14        Q.   Well, I'd now like to go on to another question.  Ethnologically,

15     Albanian -- an Albanian means a citizen of the Republic of Albania.

16     Would you agree with me?

17        A.   One of the components of the Albanian is being a citizen of

18     Albania.  However, being Albanian is a national identity, not only a

19     state identity.

20        Q.   And tell me this:  How do Albanians in Albanian call the Republic

21     of Albania?  What's the Albanian's name for the Republic of Albania?

22        A.   The Republic of Albania, the Republika Shqiperise.

23        Q.   Thank you.  [No interpretation]

24        A.   Albanian.  Shqiptar.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  So that is their own name for themselves,

Page 367

 1     Shqiperise.  The question not interpreted, interpreter's note.

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank the Trial

 3     Chamber.  That completes my cross-examination.  I'd like to thank

 4     Mr. Veton Surroi as well.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.

 6             Could I mention that the Chamber has received the photographs

 7     which were tendered clearly as extracts from some publication.  We have

 8     received the pages as they were displayed, and that includes the text.

 9     If there is agreement from the Prosecution, we could receive them without

10     the text, but otherwise, we receive the exhibit as it was shown and

11     tendered.  Clearly, though, the evidence has not sought to explain or

12     comment upon the text that it's displayed, so the Chamber would not be

13     able to attach any weight to the text at the moment.  But formally, it is

14     received as part of the exhibit that was displayed.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  If you'll allow me, Your Honours, there is

16     one -- another intervene.

17             [Interpretation] We have here in the transcript that there was no

18     interpretation of my last question.  It is page 42, line 6, at 11.50 and

19     24 seconds.  It says "[No interpretation]," "Q" and then "[No

20     interpretation]."  Now, my question was this:  How do you refer to

21     yourselves, your Albanians?  How do you call yourselves in your own

22     language?  What word do you use?

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that, Mr. Djordjevic.  That will

24     enable the completion of the transcript, and the account you've just

25     given accords generally with my recollection of it as well.

Page 368

 1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, may I?

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Indeed, Mr. Surroi.

 3             THE WITNESS:  In the transcript, as well, at 42, 7, my answer is:

 4     "A.  Albanian."  And then "Siptar," which is not spelled properly.  The

 5     proper spelling of "Shqiptar" as we call ourselves is S-h-q-i-p-t-a-r.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that.

 7             Ms. Kravetz, do you have any re-examination?

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  No, Your Honour, I have no further questions for

 9     this witness.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

11             You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Surroi, that that concludes the

12     questions of you.  The Chamber would like to thank you for your

13     attendance and for the assistance you've been able to give us --

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  -- during the process of questioning that has

16     taken place.  You may now, of course, leave and go about your ordinary

17     affairs.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  We thank you very much.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             MR. STAMP:  If it please Your Honours, I think I should mention

22     quickly, before anything is done, that the next witness has protective

23     measures in place, so we would need to go into closed session before he

24     is brought in.  I don't want him to be brought in before we go into

25     closed session.

Page 369

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  I will just check on the nature of the protective

 2     measures, Mr. Stamp.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be necessary for the Chamber to adjourn

 5     for some 20 minutes to enable physical screens and electronic protective

 6     measures to be put in place.  The Chamber would then resume the hearing.

 7     That will leave us just one and a half hours to the end of the day's

 8     session, so it will work out reasonably well in practice.

 9             We will adjourn now and resume at a quarter past 12.00, by which

10     time the protective measures should be in place.

11             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  You're ready with the next witness, Mr. Stamp?

15             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.  That is K83.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll move into closed session, then, to enable

17     the witness to come in.  Then we will go into public session.

18                           [Closed session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 370

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, open session.

 6             Yes, Mr. Stamp.

 7             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             Could the witness be shown document 02352.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Stamp:

10        Q.   Does that document contain a description of your identity?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.

13             MR. STAMP:  If it please Your Honours, could the document --

14             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll tender that under seal, Mr. Stamp.

15             MR. STAMP:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P00268 under seal, Your

17     Honours.

18             MR. STAMP:

19        Q.   In order to protect your identity, as of now we'll refer to you

20     as K83.  Can you tell us briefly about your background.  After you

21     completed primary and secondary school, did you do your military service,

22     as was customary in the former Yugoslavia?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.  I served in the army in 1992, finishing in

24     1993, in September.  After my military service, (redacted)

25     (redacted)  When I started working, a police

Page 371

 1     patrol came and served me with a summons for an interview at the police

 2     station.

 3        Q.   Did you eventually join the police force in Kosovo?

 4        A.   Yes.  They asked me -- because they had taken my file from the

 5     military department, they asked me if I wanted to serve on the reserve

 6     force of the police.

 7        Q.   About when was it, or when was it, if you can recall precisely,

 8     you joined the --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

10             MR. STAMP:

11        Q.   When did you join the reserve police force?

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, because we have voice distortion, it

13     will be necessary for you to switch off your microphone the moment you've

14     finished your question.

15             MR. STAMP:  Very well, Your Honour.  I'll try to remember at all

16     times.

17        Q.   Yes.  You were about to tell us when it was that you joined the

18     reserve police.

19        A.   That was in 1994.

20        Q.   After you joined, where were you posted?

21        A.   We were in Suva Reka where we first provided security to the

22     police station, and later on we also went on field missions.

23        Q.   These field missions were in the municipality of Suva Reka?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Were you posted there in 1998 and 1999?

Page 372

 1        A.   Right.

 2        Q.   And if we could focus on 1998 and 1999, or 1999.  At that time,

 3     were you issued with uniforms?

 4        A.   Yes.  I received a uniform, an automatic rifle, a pistol, and a

 5     truncheon.

 6        Q.   In 1998 and 1999, were you attached to any particular unit or

 7     police station?

 8        A.   I was not attached to a particular unit.  We were there just to

 9     assist active-duty policemen.

10        Q.   What police station, if any, were you attached to in 1999?

11        A.   I'm sorry.  I did not quite understand.

12        Q.   Where was the police station that you were attached to in 1999

13     located?

14        A.   We were in Suva Reka, and there was a police station in Suva Reka

15     where I worked.

16             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, with your leave, just so we could get

17     oriented where we're talking about, could I show the witness the document

18     which has now become D00003.  Perhaps you could zoom in a little bit

19     more.

20        Q.   Towards the south centre of the province of Kosovo depicted on

21     this map, do you see the municipality of Suva Reka?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And almost in the centre of it is Suva Reka -- Suva Reka town,

24     which is the capital.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 373

 1        Q.   And to the west, there is Orahovac municipality, and to the

 2     south, you see Prizren municipality.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Just one last thing I'd like you to point out on this map.  You

 5     see a red line -- you see red lines on the map, but if you could look at

 6     the red line that goes between Suva Reka and Prizren, does that depict

 7     the main road between Suva Reka and Prizren?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much.

10             MR. STAMP:  Perhaps we could now look at another map, and this is

11     the document 00615, which is an atlas.  A series of maps is inside that

12     atlas, and I'd like to look at page 23 of that document.  This is a map

13     showing Suva Reka and its environs.  Could we focus or zoom in a little

14     bit more on Suva Reka, please.  Thank you.

15        Q.   You will see the surrounding towns of Suva Reka.  There's one I'd

16     like you to focus on in particular.  Do you see to the left or to the

17     west of Suva Reka a town called Rastane?

18        A.   Yes, I can see that.

19        Q.   About how far is that town from Suva Reka?

20        A.   Roughly 3 kilometres.

21        Q.   If I could return to something on the other map, the distance

22     between Suva Reka and Pristina by the road is about how far?  Sorry, I

23     see I said Suva Reka and Pristina.  Suva Reka and Prizren, about how far

24     is that distance?

25        A.   Eighteen to 20 kilometres.

Page 374

 1        Q.   Thank you.  If we could move back to what you were doing in 1998,

 2     1999, in that period did you work full time or part time in the reserve

 3     police?

 4        A.   Well, I worked off and on.

 5        Q.   About how long would you be off and how long on?

 6        A.   I would be off for a month or two, and then I would be on for

 7     three, four, five, up to six months.

 8        Q.   In the period 1998 to, say, March, 23rd of March, to be precise,

 9     1999, was there a KLA presence in the municipality?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And kindly tell us what sort of activities the KLA was engaged in

12     in the municipality.

13        A.   They had some check-points of their own in Rastane facing

14     Drinjevci, Dulje, and they stopped buses and kidnapped Serbs off the

15     buses.

16        Q.   And did the police take any action in respect to what the KLA

17     were doing?

18        A.   Well, the police took steps, but in the time it took the police

19     to get there, they would have already escaped and hidden.  They would not

20     be staying around, waiting for police.

21        Q.   In the municipality, were there on occasion battles between the

22     police and KLA units?

23        A.   Yes, that happened.

24        Q.   Were there battles with KLA units within the town of Suva Reka

25     itself, in the heart of the town of Suva Reka?

Page 375

 1        A.   There were some battles on the road towards Rastane.

 2        Q.   How far were they from the town itself, the town centre?

 3        A.   Around 2, 2 and a half kilometres.

 4        Q.   Were there any actual battles within the town of Suva Reka itself

 5     between KLA units and the police?

 6        A.   Well, there was one assault on a member of the State Security

 7     Service, the DB, when the terrorists shot at the man as he was buying

 8     newspapers.

 9        Q.   About when was this?

10        A.   I don't remember the date.

11        Q.   Apart from that, were there any other battles?  I'm speaking of

12     battles with the KLA in Suva Reka itself, the town of Suva Reka itself.

13        A.   Well, as I said, it was up the road to Rastane, in that area,

14     that day when this incident happened, when they shot at this man from the

15     DB.

16        Q.   Could I ask you, if you recall, who were the main commanders of

17     the police station in Suva Reka town?

18        A.   The Chief was Vitosevic, the Commander was Radojko Repanovic, the

19     Deputy Commander was Dragan Borisavljevic, and the Assistant Commander

20     was Nenad Jovanovic.

21        Q.   Okay.  When you say Vitosevic was the chief of the police

22     station, yet Repanovic was the commander, what do you mean?  What sort of

23     responsibilities did you understand Vitosevic to have as distinct from

24     Repanovic, whom you described as a commander?

25        A.   As far as I understand these things, Vitosevic was more in charge

Page 376

 1     of the civilian personnel who worked with passports, ID cards, whereas

 2     Commander Repanovic was in charge of the police proper.

 3        Q.   When you say "police proper," you mean police who did what type

 4     of work?

 5        A.   I mean uniformed police officers.

 6        Q.   Now, I'd like to take you to the 26th of March, 1999.  This was a

 7     couple days after the NATO intervention commenced.  Were you on patrol on

 8     the morning of that day?

 9        A.   Yes, I was.

10        Q.   Who, if anybody, were you on patrol with?

11        A.   That day, we were four or five on patrol.  We set out towards

12     Dzinovce because there were police officers there on a field mission.  We

13     went there to take food to them, water, and ammunition.

14        Q.   Did you return to Suva Reka?

15        A.   Yes.  After that, we returned and stopped outside the SUP

16     building in Suva Reka.

17        Q.   About what time you stopped outside the police building in Suva

18     Reka?

19        A.   I don't know the exact time.  It was a long time ago.  I can't

20     remember the hour --

21        Q.   Approximately.

22        A.   -- but -- no, I don't remember.

23        Q.   Yes, I know you will not be able to tell us precisely what time,

24     but can you just approximate, between what time and what time?

25        A.   Well, for an hour or so, not longer.

Page 377

 1        Q.   Yes.  What I was trying to get at, can you just tell us

 2     approximately?  And please understand, we know after so long you can't

 3     really be precise, but just between what time and what time was it that

 4     you and your patrol stopped outside the police building in Suva Reka on

 5     the 26th of March?

 6        A.   Around 11.00 perhaps.

 7        Q.   In the day?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let me get back to something I asked before.  Who were the

10     other members of your parade -- your patrol?  Could you name them?

11        A.   Radovan Tanovic, Sladjan Cukaric, Miki Petkovic, and myself.

12        Q.   Who was the person who was in charge of the patrol?

13        A.   Radovan Tanovic.

14        Q.   What was Cukaric's role in the patrol?  In other words, did he

15     have any command responsibility in the patrol?

16        A.   I'm not sure, but the two of them were superiors to me and

17     Petkovic.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Were all of you reservists, or only some of you

19     reservists and some full, regular police officers?

20        A.   Tanovic, Radovan Tanovic, and Sladjan Cukaric were actual duty

21     policemen, whereas Miki Petkovic and I were reserve policemen.

22        Q.   Now, you said that you stopped outside the SUP building.  Do you

23     know if it was a SUP building or an OUP building or just a police

24     station?

25        A.   Well, it was the station of the interior, of internal affairs.

Page 378

 1        Q.   Now, when you stopped outside that police station that day, did

 2     you see any vehicles in the vicinity?

 3        A.   Yes, we did.  Two lorries arrived in camouflage colour, and we

 4     stood there watching.  Out of the two lorries police officers came out,

 5     some police officers who, as far as I remember, had arrived to Suva Reka

 6     as assistance, and they set out towards the houses opposite the police

 7     station.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So that we can follow you now, I'd like to place

 9     before you an aerial photograph of the area.

10             MR. STAMP:  Could we bring up 02349, page 1.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we look at

13     this photograph, could our learned friend Mr. Stamp tell us who made this

14     photograph, and when?

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Can you help, Mr. Stamp?

16             MR. STAMP:  Not at this moment.  I could provide the information

17     to my friend in the break.  I believe the photograph was made by

18     international agencies who entered Suva Reka and entered Kosovo after the

19     end of hostilities.  But I think the real question here at this moment is

20     whether or not the witness can speak to the contents of the document or

21     the photograph.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  The real question is whether this is a depiction

23     of Suva Reka as it was at the time or at some other time, if I understand

24     you correctly.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm happy with

Page 379

 1     Mr. Stamp's answer.  We can continue, and then perhaps the witness, too,

 2     will give us an explanation.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.

 4             Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   If you look at the photograph before you, could you tell us,

 7     point out to us where the police station is located on this photograph?

 8     I think you'll have to mark it, if I may ask that that be done.  One

 9     moment.  One moment.

10             MR. STAMP:  I think I'll ask him to mark the place where the

11     trucks were first with the letter A.  I do that because I just want to

12     remain consistent with the way the markings were done in another case.

13     So I want the letters to be consistent.  It's just for ease of reference

14     in the future.

15        Q.   The trucks that you saw the policemen coming from, could you just

16     put a letter A as to where these trucks stopped?

17             JUDGE PARKER:  The document in its unmarked form will be received

18     first, Mr. Stamp, and then in marked form.  So we will receive this now.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  This document number, Your Honours, with ID 02349

20     will be given P00269.

21             MR. STAMP:

22        Q.   Please mark where the trucks were located with an A.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   And could you put a cross or an X at the point where you were

25     standing.

Page 380

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Now, the police arrived in the trucks.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Before that, may I just indicate that what the

 4     witness has put here looks more like a C with a cross in the middle of

 5     it.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, Mr. Stamp.  We see the location.

 7             MR. STAMP:

 8        Q.   Were the police arriving in the trucks led by any person in

 9     particular?

10        A.   Yes.  We called him --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what they

12     called the commander of the unit of the -- which arrived.

13             MR. STAMP:

14        Q.   K83, can you repeat the name -- can you repeat what you called

15     the commander of the unit, please?

16        A.   Cegar "jed".

17        Q.   And did he arrive there?

18        A.   Yes.  He was standing facing the police station.  He was standing

19     next to a jeep.

20        Q.   Did he arrive in that jeep?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Could you put a letter B where he was.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   And could you put a letter C where the police station was.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 381

 1        Q.   That's the police building that you've put the C there.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The lorries that the police came -- arrived in, how would you

 4     describe them?  Were they ordinary lorries, or were they armoured

 5     vehicles?

 6        A.   Those were military trucks that had some additional work done on

 7     them, such as armour on the sides, and they had no tarpaulin on top.

 8     They were camouflage military trucks.

 9        Q.   I'd like you to just put an arrow in the vicinity of the letter

10     A, pointing to where the police that alighted the trucks went to, or

11     pointing to the direction of where the police that alighted the trucks

12     went to.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Now, did Cegar, the leader of the police who alighted the truck,

15     say anything?

16        A.   Yes.  As we were standing outside the police station, he came up

17     to the Assistant Commander Nenad Jovanovic, and Assistant Commander Nenad

18     Jovanovic wanted to salute back, according to regulation, as a superior

19     commander should be saluted; however, Cegar 1 started yelling at him and

20     said, What are you staring at?  What are you waiting for?  Go after these

21     men, who came to assist.  And Assistant Commander Nenad Jovanovic then

22     just told us to move.

23        Q.   In the translation I just heard, you referred to the commander of

24     these police units as Cegar 1.  Earlier you had said "Cegar 'jed'."  You

25     referred to him as Cegar 1; is that correct?

Page 382

 1        A.   Yes.  Cegar "jed".

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter heard "Cegar jedan," "jedan"

 3     meaning one.  Perhaps the witness can clarify.

 4             MR. STAMP:  I see.

 5        Q.   You're saying in Serbian that the commander was called Cegar 1?

 6        A.   Yes.  That was his password at the police, his code-name.

 7        Q.   When you say his password and his code-name, what do you mean by

 8     that?

 9        A.   It's his secret identity code.

10        Q.   Would it be used -- would it be used if you were calling him on

11     the radio?

12        A.   Yes, on the radio.

13        Q.   Let's get back to the events.  Assistant Commander Jovanovic told

14     you to move.  Where did your patrol move to?

15        A.   We moved towards Rastane, straight to the house which had earlier

16     been the base for OSCE.

17        Q.   I'd like you to mark on the map where your unit went to after

18     Cegar 1 shouted orders to Jovanovic.  Just mark it with a D, where your

19     unit went to.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Which building is that?

22        A.   This is the OSCE building.

23        Q.   Do you see a building on the map below that building?

24        A.   Yes, I can.

25        Q.   Did you go anywhere in respect to that building?

Page 383

 1        A.   Since some policemen were already in the OSCE building, Cukaric

 2     and Tanovic ordered me and Petkovic to go behind the house to provide

 3     them with cover in case anyone would shoot at them because there was

 4     shooting from all sides.

 5        Q.   So where did you and Petkovic go to?  Could you mark the place

 6     where you and Petkovic went to with the letter E.

 7        A.   I was here, and Petkovic was here, on the other side of the

 8     house.

 9             MR. STAMP:  The witness marked -- well, now he has marked a

10     letter E, indicating where he was, and an L, indicating where the other

11     police officer was.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             MR. STAMP:

14        Q.   You said there was shooting.  Do you know who was shooting?

15        A.   Well, those policemen who had arrived to help were shooting at

16     those houses.  There was shooting from all sides.  Everything was

17     happening so quickly, like in a movie.

18        Q.   So could you tell us what happened after you arrived to the

19     vicinity, after you arrived to the vicinity of that building behind the

20     OSCE house?

21        A.   When we arrived at that house, there were four men behind the

22     OSCE building, that house, and Cukaric and Tanovic checked their IDs,

23     whereas the other two of us were on the left and on the right of the

24     house.

25        Q.   After Cukaric and Tanovic checked their IDs, what happened?

Page 384

 1        A.   A woman, some children, and some elderly people came out of the

 2     house.

 3        Q.   Which house?

 4        A.   That house where Petkovic and I were standing on the sides, the

 5     one marked with E and L.

 6        Q.   And did these women, children, and elderly go anywhere?

 7        A.   Since there was shooting all around, they huddled and ran

 8     together in a tight cluster towards the shopping centre.

 9        Q.   About how many of them were there?

10        A.   To the best of my recollection, there were 30 or 35 of them.

11        Q.   When they ran in the direction of the shopping centre, what

12     happened after?  Did Cukaric or Tanovic do or say anything?

13        A.   Well, they told us to follow them, to see where these people

14     would go.  But as we had already set out to follow these people, Cukaric

15     and Tanovic lined the four men against the wall of the house.  We

16     continued to follow the people to the pizzeria where some people were

17     temporarily accommodated, and on the way two elderly people were injured,

18     hit in the legs.  We returned and told Cukaric and Tanovic that those

19     people who had been in the OSCE house were now all in the pizzeria.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's get a clarification, just to be sure.  The women and

21     children ran from which house, the OSCE house that you marked with a D or

22     the house that you were posted at that you marked with an E?

23        A.   There were only four people in the OSCE house, and they stayed

24     there, whereas from the house we were in they rushed out and went to the

25     pizzeria.

Page 385

 1        Q.   So I take it that the women and children rushed out of the house

 2     marked E?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   What happened to the four men that were lined up by Cukaric and

 5     Tanovic?

 6        A.   They were killed behind the house, behind the OSCE house.

 7        Q.   Just tell us what you saw happen to them.

 8        A.   They were facing the wall, their faces against the wall.  They

 9     were lined up, and then suddenly there was a burst of gun-fire, and they

10     were killed, all four of them, there on the spot.

11        Q.   Who fired?

12        A.   Tanovic and Cukaric.

13        Q.   These four men, were they armed?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Were they in uniform?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   You said you and Petkovic went after the women and children who

18     had gone in the direction of the shopping centre.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you saw some elderly people who had been injured.  Could you

21     mark with a letter F where you saw the elderly people.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Well, you've marked the F -- the F you marked is on a building.

24     Were they in -- on the building or on the ground in the vicinity of the

25     building?

Page 386

 1        A.   They were on the ground.  There's a passageway there, a tunnel,

 2     and they were on the pavement there.

 3        Q.   Were they a man and a woman, or two women, or two men?

 4        A.   A man and a woman.

 5        Q.   And where had they been hit?

 6        A.   In the legs.

 7        Q.   From your experience and what you saw, what had they been hit

 8     with?

 9        A.   Well, from an automatic rifle, most probably.

10        Q.   Will you mark the spot where they were?  Is that the area of the

11     shopping centre as well?

12        A.   I beg your pardon?  I didn't understand you.

13        Q.   You said that the persons -- maybe I should withdraw that and ask

14     a different question.

15             Could you, with a G, put the area of the pizzeria where the

16     women, children, and elderly ran to, put where it was.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Now, did you see them inside the pizzeria?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   Was the door to the pizzeria locked or open?

21        A.   Well, I don't know.  Probably someone had the key, one of them

22     had the key, since the pizzeria was closed on that day.  But someone must

23     have had a key, and as they went inside, they locked themselves in from

24     the inside.

25        Q.   How did you become aware of that?

Page 387

 1        A.   I went to the pizzeria, and when I got there, I saw that they

 2     were there and that the door was locked.

 3        Q.   And you said you returned with the other police officer to where

 4     Cukaric and Tanovic were.  What happened when you rejoined Cukaric and

 5     Tanovic?

 6        A.   Well, I was quite frightened.  I found it difficult to calm down

 7     because everything was happening very quickly and I wasn't feeling well.

 8     But nearby there was a cafe of some sort, and Cukaric told me to go and

 9     take some alcohol or something, to have a drink and sort of relax and

10     come to, to relax and feel better.

11        Q.   Yes.  Before Cukaric told you to get the drinks, did he discuss

12     what he was intending to do after that?

13        A.   No.  He didn't say anything.  As I was going to the cafe to take

14     a drink, I passed by the old man and the old woman, and they were still

15     alive at that point.  When I came back, they were dead.

16        Q.   Do you know how they died?

17        A.   Well, I didn't see it.  I didn't see anything, but I just heard a

18     shot or shots, and when I came back I saw that Cukaric had a rifle in his

19     hands, and then we sat down to have a drink, the drink that I had

20     fetched.  This was between the pizzeria and that other building where the

21     people were.

22        Q.   When you came back after you heard the shot, the burst of fire,

23     and saw Cukaric with a gun or a rifle in his hand, where was he in

24     relation to the two now-dead old people?

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 388

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend

 2     Mr. Stamp says that the witness heard a burst of fire.  The witness just

 3     said he heard shooting.  So could he ask his questions properly in-chief.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

 5             Mr. Stamp, it was "shot" or "shots" and you --

 6             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   After you heard these shots, where did you see Cukaric in

 8     relation to the two elderly people that were killed?

 9        A.   He was moving around down there towards the pizzeria, between --

10     well, there's a tunnel here.  It's not shown very well, but that's where

11     that sort of tunnel is, where we sat down to have that drink and to have

12     a bit of a rest.

13        Q.   As you arrived back from the cafe with the drinks and you heard

14     the shots, how far was Cukaric from the two old people?

15        A.   About 5 or 6 metres away.

16        Q.   Do you know in what parts of their bodies they were shot?

17        A.   Well, I saw just a shot to the head.

18        Q.   After that, you said you went somewhere with him, all four of you

19     now, to have the drinks.  Could you mark on the map with a letter H where

20     you stopped to have the drinks.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   And that is between two buildings, around the corner from the

23     pizzeria.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   After you had the drinks, what happened?  Just describe to us

Page 389

 1     what happened after you drank the alcohol.

 2        A.   When we had the drink, Tanovic broke the window with his rifle

 3     butt and threw a hand-grenade inside.

 4        Q.   Sorry, which window are you referring to?

 5        A.   The window to the pizzeria, where the people were, and those who

 6     escaped.

 7        Q.   And I'd like you to describe in your own words, slowly and

 8     carefully, what happened when -- after Tanovic threw the grenade inside

 9     the pizzeria where these people were.

10        A.   Since I and Petkovic and Cukaric were standing round -- behind

11     the corner, around the corner, because of all the glass, the shattered

12     glass and the explosion and the shrapnel, to avoid being hit and injured,

13     all you could hear were cries and screams and moans and crying, and after

14     several minutes, a couple of minutes later - not even that much, maybe -

15     a second bomb was thrown in, hand-grenade was thrown in.  And when things

16     had calmed down a bit, then they started shooting, Cukaric and Tanovic,

17     with a burst of gun-fire, through the shop window, the window to the

18     pizzeria.  So they took turns in shooting until all went quiet and none

19     of the cries could be heard anymore.

20        Q.   Who threw the second grenade into the pizzeria where the people

21     were?

22        A.   Cukaric.

23        Q.   After you ceased hearing the cries of these people, what

24     happened?  Did Cukaric or Tanovic instruct you to do anything?

25        A.   Yes.  Petkovic stayed there, stayed where he was at the corner,

Page 390

 1     and I crossed over to the opposite side, went past the pizzeria, and went

 2     up to the main road where there was a kiosk in order to secure a place

 3     because of the civilians and the other people, to prevent them from

 4     passing by that way.

 5        Q.   And how long did you remain there?

 6        A.   We stayed there roughly about an hour and a half, perhaps two

 7     hours.  I don't remember exactly.

 8        Q.   Very well.  While you were at the kiosk - and I should ask you to

 9     mark it an M - you say you were there to prevent people from going to

10     where the shooting occurred.  Just put an M where you stood.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   The M is placed right next to the main road, I see.  Did any

13     vehicle arrive there of any particular significance?

14        A.   First of all, Dr. Boban arrived, Boban Vuksanovic, and

15     Djordjevic, Mirko Djordjevic.

16        Q.   Who are these people?

17        A.   Dr. Vuksanovic was a doctor, and he was in the civilian

18     protection during the war as some sort of commander for civilian defence;

19     and Djordjevic, Mirko, he was the TO commander.

20        Q.   About how long after the shooting into the pizzeria and the time

21     you went to stand at the kiosk, on guard, did these two individuals

22     arrive?

23        A.   Well, it might have been 15 to 20 minutes.

24        Q.   When they arrived, what happened?  Did they do or say anything?

25        A.   Dr. Boban Vuksanovic examined the bodies to see if they were all

Page 391

 1     dead.  After that, a truck arrived from the direction of Prizren in order

 2     to load up the bodies from the pizzeria.

 3        Q.   Where did the truck go to?

 4        A.   The first truck was loaded up with the bodies, and it went off

 5     back to Prizren, or in that direction.  Then a second truck arrived, and

 6     that second truck also was loaded up, and it drove off in the direction

 7     of Prizren too.

 8        Q.   These two trucks, where did they stop or where did they park in

 9     order to be loaded?

10        A.   You can't see it --

11        Q.   Don't mark it.  Don't mark it.

12        A.    -- very well here.

13        Q.   Tell us first, please.  Tell us where they went to and stopped in

14     order to be loaded.

15        A.   They stopped between this kiosk and the pizzeria.  There's a

16     small pavement there, and the truck almost drove up to right in front of

17     the pizzeria.

18        Q.   Now, who loaded the bodies from the pizzeria onto the truck?

19        A.   That was -- well, they were elderly people in the civilian

20     defence or from the civilian defence, and there were some children, too,

21     who at that time were still not adults.  They were still minors.

22        Q.   So did they do it willingly or reluctantly?  How did they come to

23     do it?

24        A.   They didn't know what they were supposed to do.  They were told

25     to collect up the livestock.  So on that day, they didn't know what they

Page 392

 1     were supposed to do, but then they were called by Dr. Boban Vuksanovic to

 2     do that.  However, they didn't want to do it, and then Cukaric threatened

 3     them and said that they were either going to load up the bodies or they'd

 4     end up the same way, like the others who were killed.

 5        Q.   Apart from these people from the civil defence -- or before I

 6     move on, these people who loaded the bodies, they arrived with the

 7     trucks; is that correct?  Do you understand what I'm asking?  I'm asking,

 8     the people who loaded the bodies, if they arrived on the trucks.

 9        A.   No.  No, they didn't.

10        Q.   How did they arrive?

11        A.   They arrived in another truck that was going around collecting

12     livestock.  It was a rather large truck, and they were going around

13     collecting up the cattle, the livestock - sheep, cows, pigs.

14        Q.   Now, do you know somebody by the name of Jashar Berisha?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Did you see him that day?

17        A.   Well, yes.  That day in the morning, he came to work at the

18     petrol pump.

19        Q.   What work did he do there?

20        A.   He tanked up the petrol at the petrol pump.

21        Q.   Now, while you were waiting at the kiosk after the shooting in

22     the pizzeria, did you see him?

23        A.   He was working that day, and then he was detained at the station

24     when the shooting was taking place around those houses, and when those

25     people were killed by the pizzeria, then he was driven in by Todor

Page 393

 1     Jovanovic.  Todor Jovanovic brought him in his car.  He brought him to

 2     the pizzeria.

 3        Q.   Who is Todor Jovanovic?

 4        A.   He was the crime technician, something like that.

 5        Q.   Was he a member of the police force in Suva Reka?

 6        A.   Yes, but he worked in civilian clothes.

 7        Q.   Tell us now what happened to Jashar Berisha when Jovanovic

 8     brought him to the vicinity of the pizzeria.

 9        A.   Dr. Boban, he called him to come over and see something, I don't

10     know, to see something; however, Jashar didn't want to get close up.

11     However, Cukaric got hold of him by his arm, pushed him away, and shot

12     him in the back once.

13        Q.   Before Cukaric shot him, what was he saying?  What was Jashar

14     saying when Boban -- when Dr. Vuksanovic spoke to him?

15        A.   Well, he didn't want to come up close.  He said he didn't deserve

16     it.  He said, I don't deserve to be there.  I can't remember the exact

17     words he said.  He struggled.

18        Q.   And after Cukaric shot him, what did they do with his body?

19        A.   As far as I remember, he was loaded up, too, his body was loaded

20     up in the truck that went to Prizren.

21        Q.   You said you remained there after the shooting for perhaps up to

22     two hours.  After that, did you go anywhere?

23        A.   As far as I remember, I think Cukaric drove me to the health

24     centre because I wasn't feeling well.

25        Q.   You weren't feeling well in what way?  What happened to you?

Page 394

 1        A.   I was shattered.  I felt sick, that kind of thing.  I wasn't

 2     feeling well.  I had a difficult time of it.

 3        Q.   To this day, have you recovered from the illness, the feeling of

 4     being shattered, having regard to what you witnessed?

 5        A.   You know how it is.  Well, the film I saw is never interrupted.

 6     Everything goes normally during the day, but when I go to sleep I

 7     can't -- actually, I can't sleep.  I don't sleep well, and I have

 8     nightmares, and when I get up in the morning, I feel tired, as if I

 9     hadn't slept the whole night.  So that's what happens.

10        Q.   The next day --

11             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I'm taking a little bit longer than I

12     expected.  I don't think I have much longer, but I wish to turn to the

13     events of the next day, and with three minutes left for this day, I

14     wonder if I could do it on the next day of court sitting.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I'm afraid we can't go past 1.45 because the

16     courtroom has to be prepared for the next trial.  I think it might not be

17     practical to move to a new subject matter now, so we could adjourn until

18     Monday.

19             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.  And may I quickly ask that the

20     marked document be saved before anything happens to the markings.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, it can't be saved.  It will have to be

22     exhibited in its present form.

23             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, that's what I meant.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, it will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00270, Your Honours.

Page 395

 1             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, we'll have to go in closed session

 2     briefly for the witness to leave, but since we have two minutes, I wonder

 3     if I could raise two housekeeping matters, which I don't think would be

 4     more than a minute each.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  While that's happening, the court

 6     staff will close the screens with a view to the witness leaving, and we

 7     will then adjourn and resume on Monday at 2.15.

 8             Now, you have two matters, Mr. Stamp?

 9             MR. STAMP:  Let me mention the least sensitive one first while

10     the witness is present.

11             On the 26th of February, the judgement in a related case is

12     scheduled to be delivered in the afternoon.  We're also scheduled in this

13     case to sit on that afternoon.  Your Honours, as it turns out, many of

14     the people who would be likely to be in court, in this court, in trial on

15     that afternoon are also persons who are involved in that case, and

16     although most times the delivery of a judgement, there is no need to call

17     upon counsel, but sometimes it is good to have in court persons who know

18     the details about issues of protective measures in particular that might

19     arise.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Can I anticipate your request and say that we are

21     having inquiries made to see whether this hearing can be moved to the

22     morning of the 26th of February.  If so, that will be done.  If not, we

23     will not sit in the afternoon so as not to interfere with the Milutinovic

24     judgement.

25             MR. STAMP:  I am very grateful, Your Honour.

Page 396

 1             Could the witness be discharged for Monday?

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 3             We have to adjourn now to continue on Monday.  The staff here

 4     will give you directions and assistance over the weekend, and we will

 5     continue on Monday at 2.15.  If you go now with the court officer, and

 6     you'll be assisted further with arrangements over the weekend.  Thank you

 7     very much.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           [Closed session]

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 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of

 8                           February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.