Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 552

 1                           Thursday, 5 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  May I remind you that the affirmation you made to

 9     tell the truth still applies.  Thank you.

10             Mr. Neuner.

11                           WITNESS:  ALI GJOGAJ [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Mr. Neuner:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, witness.  Good morning to everyone in and around

15     the courtroom.

16             Witness, I have two clarifying questions.  Yesterday you

17     repeatedly referred to Buda.  What is the given name and family name of

18     Buda?

19        A.   Budimir Spasic.

20        Q.   And yesterday also you repeatedly referred to Jova.  What is the

21     given name and family name of Jova?

22        A.   Jova Vujicic.

23        Q.   I want to take you back to Korisa.  Yesterday, and that's page 41

24     of the transcript, you mentioned that seven to eight policemen were

25     removing bodies from a grave.  Why do you think these men removing the

Page 553

 1     bodies were policemen?

 2        A.   Because they were wearing police uniforms, so it was -- normally

 3     they were police.

 4        Q.   And how far away from these policemen were you when they were

 5     removing bodies?

 6        A.   About 15 to 20 metres.

 7        Q.   And could you see in this very moment, because I understand it

 8     was in the evening, may have been dark?

 9        A.   I saw them because they kind of built a light there, a fire

10     there.  That's why I saw them.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12        A.   Correction.  The lights of the excavators were turned on, so

13     that's why I could see them.

14        Q.   And where did the policemen bring the bodies to?

15        A.   They loaded one truck; we did the other one, because, as I said,

16     there were two lorries, two trucks, and two excavators.

17        Q.   Could you describe what you remember about the trucks, how they

18     were looking like.

19        A.   The trucks were big ones.  They had refrigerators.  Ours was of a

20     red colour, and the refrigerator was white.  The other one, I'm not sure

21     about the colour.

22        Q.   Okay.  And do you remember whether the trucks had any licence

23     plates?

24        A.   No, they did not.

25        Q.   You already mentioned that you were also engaging in work.  Could

Page 554

 1     you describe what work you were doing that night?

 2        A.   The excavators dug out the corpses, and we loaded them onto the

 3     trucks.

 4        Q.   For clarification, were you working at the same spot where the

 5     seven to eight policemen were working or somewhere else?

 6        A.   In Korishe, that was the place where they had killed these

 7     people.  This is where the police and we loaded the bodies.

 8        Q.   Okay.  But you didn't answer my question.  I wanted to know

 9     within the location of the Korisa, were you working at the same place as

10     the policemen or were you working at another grave?

11        A.   We worked separately in different places.  They had one truck; we

12     had our truck.  They worked with their own group; we worked with our own

13     group.

14        Q.   So and with your own group you were working at a separate grave,

15     then; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And who told you what your task was at this second grave?

18        A.   Buda.

19        Q.   And who determined the location of this second grave in the first

20     place?

21        A.   I didn't know anything, but there, at the place where we worked,

22     there was the excavator and the truck.  They didn't move from that place

23     but started working right away.

24        Q.   My question was maybe not very clear.  Do you remember who in the

25     first place, before the grave was dug, determined that this is the

Page 555

 1     location where to dig?

 2        A.   Buda said so.

 3        Q.   And roughly how many corpses were you moving that night?

 4        A.   I didn't count them but around 80 or 90.

 5        Q.   And if -- what type of clothes were the deceased wearing?

 6        A.   They were in civilian clothes.

 7        Q.   Why do you think they were in civilian clothes?

 8        A.   Because you could tell civilian clothes from other clothes.  They

 9     didn't have any uniforms, so they were dressed only in civilian clothes.

10        Q.   The bodies which you had to move, were there also some weapons

11     accompanied to these bodies?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   In what state were the bodies?

14        A.   The bodies were in a very decomposed state.  They smelt; there

15     was a stench.  It was very hard for us to work.

16        Q.   And these 80 to 90 bodies, where did they go to?  Where did you

17     bring them to?

18        A.   This I don't know, because they took us to another place to dig

19     out other bodies.  And it was raining, so I don't know where they took

20     the corpses.

21        Q.   Okay.  But when you were touching the bodies, what were you

22     doing?  Where were you bringing the bodies at Korisa?

23        A.   We loaded them onto the lorries.

24        Q.   Okay.  And when you left Korisa, where did the trucks stay?

25        A.   In the same place where we pulled out the corpses.  This is where

Page 556

 1     the trucks were.

 2        Q.   But when you left Korisa that night, were the trucks leaving with

 3     you, or did they stay behind?

 4        A.   The trucks remained there.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Approximately what time did you leave Korisa that night?

 6        A.   Approximately at 2.00 in the morning.

 7        Q.   And where did you go at 2.00 in the morning?

 8        A.   We went to the place where the garbage of the city was.  First it

 9     was the excavator who went -- which went there, and then we arrived and

10     started to dig out the corpses.

11             MR. NEUNER:  With the assistance of the usher, could I have P277

12     brought up on the screen for us, please.

13        Q.   I want you, in a second when the map pops up, to mark where that

14     garbage dump is for us.

15             MR. NEUNER:  If I could ask the usher already to give the witness

16     a pen, please.

17        Q.   Could you encircle where you believe that the garbage dump is?

18        A.   Just a moment.  The place where the garbage dump was, was near

19     this -- near the village of Shpinadjinadi.

20        Q.   You've just encircled it.  Could you mark a 2 next to your

21     circle, please.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Who, if anybody, escorted you on your way from Korisa to the

24     garbage dump?

25        A.   Yes.  With my working pals and the police, the police took us

Page 557

 1     there and then they surrounded us to protect us.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And what task did you have at the garbage dump?

 3        A.   The same thing we did before.  First it was the excavator that

 4     went there, and then we went with the refrigerator truck.

 5        Q.   This was the same refrigerator truck which you had seen at

 6     Korisa, or it was a new one?

 7        A.   It was a new one.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   It was smaller.

10        Q.   A smaller one.  And could you describe the colour and whether it

11     had licence plates, please.

12        A.   It didn't have licence plates, but it was -- the refrigerator was

13     white, but I think the truck was of a yellow colour, if I'm not mistaken.

14        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall what brand the trucks had?

15        A.   Zastava make.

16        Q.   Okay.  And the brand of the trucks, the refrigerator trucks at

17     Korisa, do you remember this brand as well?

18        A.   The police one.  Ours was Nomad 21.

19        Q.   I'm asking about the refrigerator truck brand, if you know.

20        A.   Mercedes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could you --

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you tendering this marked map, Mr. Neuner?

23             MR. NEUNER:  I'm intending to tender it at a later point in time,

24     Your Honours.  We'll have a couple more markings.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Okay.  As long as we don't lose the map.

Page 558

 1             MR. NEUNER:  We don't lose the map.  This is be the only exhibit

 2     until the end of my examination, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Who tasked you at the garbage dump?

 4        A.   Buda.

 5        Q.   You mentioned before that Jova was at Korisa.  Did you see Jova

 6     also at the garbage dump?

 7        A.   Yes, but it was Buda who gave us the task.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And who pointed out the position of the grave where the

 9     excavator had to dig?

10        A.   It was the police who told Buda and Jova, and they ordered us

11     where to go and dig out the bodies.

12        Q.   And how many bodies did you transport from the garbage dump to

13     the excavator?

14        A.   About 30 to 40.

15        Q.   Okay.  And what type of clothes, if any, were the deceased

16     wearing?

17        A.   They were dressed in civilian clothes, like the first ones.

18        Q.   Did you see any uniforms or weapons that the deceased were having

19     or wearing?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And in what state were the bodies at the garbage dump?

22        A.   The same.

23        Q.   The same as ... could you clarify?

24        A.   The same as the condition of the first ones.  They were

25     decomposed.  There was a stench.  It was exactly the same.

Page 559

 1        Q.   And when did the works at the garbage dump finish?

 2        A.   At about 4.00 in the morning.

 3        Q.   So if I understand your testimony correctly, you have told us

 4     that you arrived sometime at 9.00 in the evening at Korisa, and at 4.00

 5     in the morning you were done at the garbage dump.  Could you tell us, is

 6     that a normal -- was that a normal working hour for you in 1999, working

 7     throughout the night?

 8        A.   No.  It was not a normal working time.  Usually we worked during

 9     the day, not at night, but that night they took us there to work during

10     the night.

11        Q.   On your way back, who, if anybody, escorted you?

12        A.   Jova and Buda, they were in the same truck with us.

13        Q.   And was any other vehicle escorting you along the way?

14        A.   There were police who escorted us.

15        Q.   I want to ask you, was there another occasion during the NATO air

16     bombardments where you collected bodies?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Where was this?

19        A.   In Pusto Selo village, above Rahovec.

20        Q.   Could you encircle, if you find it on this map, Pusto Selo,

21     please.

22        A.   Could you please enlarge the map a little bit.

23             MR. NEUNER:  I think then we are losing the second circle.

24     That's why the Prosecution proposed to work from a hard copy yesterday.

25     I'm afraid we have to tender this now in order not to lose the second

Page 560

 1     circle.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  It is already an exhibit, if I am correct.  It's

 3     Exhibit P277.

 4             MR. NEUNER:  Yes, but the witness has marked --

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  The witness has now marked an additional

 6     marking, number 2, on Exhibit P277.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  If this still works and we can tender it in this

 8     form, I would tender it under the same number.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, we will print it, but it is the one exhibit

10     number.

11             MR. NEUNER:  Yes, please.

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  The system wants another number.  I'm sorry.

14             MR. NEUNER:  Okay.  That's what I thought.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  The system controls us all, Mr. Neuner.

16             MR. NEUNER:  I understand that.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Exhibit P278.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be P00279, respectfully, Your Honours.

19             MR. NEUNER:  Could we enlarge a little bit the map the witness

20     just asked or the -- should we start afresh now from, I believe it was

21     276, P276, the unmarked map, or is it possible to take P278 and enlarge

22     it and then tender it as -- excuse me, P279, enlarge it, and then tender

23     it once the witness has made more markings?  I'm in the hands of the

24     Court here.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We will first of all concentrate on getting a

Page 561

 1     satisfactory enlargement.

 2             MR. NEUNER:  If it would be possible, the Prosecution would be

 3     interested to show P279 enlarged.  Because at the end of the day, what we

 4     are heading for is having markings on one map.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I don't

 7     think that it is proper to add new markings to exhibits that are already

 8     in evidence, because what we get, we don't know what we get.  If

 9     something has been admitted into evidence, then we would need to have a

10     blank map and then start anew.  That is the only proper way to proceed.

11     Then we would know what we have.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm afraid experiences differ, Mr. Djurdjic.  I'm

13     used to having manual maps which several witnesses mark at different

14     times, and it's all one exhibit.  And I can assure you that it can be

15     followed in the end.

16             In this case I understand the Prosecution to be proceeding

17     exhibit by exhibit, eventually to reach the situation where the final

18     exhibit will have all the markings on it.  And as long as we follow the

19     transcript, we will know exactly what each of them are.  And that should

20     then mean that when you come to work on your address at the end of the

21     trial and the Prosecution does and when the Chamber comes to reach a

22     decision, we need only to look at one exhibit to see all the markings.

23             Now, that, as I understand it, is what the Prosecution is

24     intending.  I think that you will find that you'll be able to follow

25     that.

Page 562

 1             Please carry on, Mr. Neuner.

 2             MR. NEUNER:

 3        Q.   Witness, are you on this enlarged map in a position to find and

 4     encircle Pusto Selo?

 5        A.   I can't see very well.  I'm afraid I will make some mistakes.  I

 6     can't read the letters.

 7             MR. NEUNER:  Can we try, with the usher's assistance, to enlarge

 8     that a little bit.  If the usher could scroll down -- scroll upwards a

 9     very little bit so that Prizren is still -- let's say that half of

10     Prizren is cut off.

11        Q.   Do you find it now?  Otherwise, the Prosecution would have a hard

12     copy.

13        A.   A little bit lower, please.  Again, lower, lower.  I can't,

14     really -- I can't see them.  I'm afraid I would make a mistake and then

15     it won't be admitted, what I'm going to say.

16             MR. NEUNER:  We would have a hard copy, as I proposed yesterday.

17     I'm in the hands of the ushers whether this is a feasible course of

18     action, since the witness can't recognise ...

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Of course.

20             MR. NEUNER:  Yes.  Yesterday I was told it was not possible.

21     That's why I'm asking.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  What's not possible?

23             MR. NEUNER:  To work from a hard copy, I was told.  If you could

24     please put it on the ELMO.

25        Q.   Could you please, on this hard-copy map, encircle Pusto Selo, if

Page 563

 1     you've found it.

 2        A.   Just a moment, please.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. NEUNER:  I believe since this will be a new exhibit, we will

 5     start with the number 1 again, if Your Honours agree.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  We'll leave it to you --

 7             MR. NEUNER:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Neuner.

 9             MR. NEUNER:  Yes.  I think we'll start a fresh exhibit because

10     this is a hard copy now.

11        Q.   Could you mark a 1 next to your circle, please.

12        A.   Here, near Pastasele?

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And when roughly did you proceed to Pusto Selo?  What time of the

16     year was it?

17        A.   We went there around the end of April, maybe early May.  I'm not

18     sure.  But that was more or less end of April or beginning of May.  I

19     don't know the dates.  But most probably at the end of April.

20        Q.   Of which year?

21        A.   1999.

22        Q.   And who, if anybody, was escorting you on your way there?

23        A.   Our boss Buda and some policemen from Prizren.  They took us

24     outside Rahovec, and they -- there was another company of the Hygiene of

25     Rahovec that came with us.

Page 564

 1        Q.   And did you recognise any of the policemen in or around Pusto

 2     Selo?

 3        A.   No, with the exception of Jova's son who was also a policeman.

 4     He was the son of our director.  His name was Mirko.  He was the only one

 5     I recognised.  The others I didn't.

 6        Q.   Can you state the full name of Mirko, please?

 7        A.   Mirko Vujicic.

 8        Q.   And who tasked you when you were arriving in Pusto Selo?

 9        A.   Budimir.

10        Q.   What did he task you with?

11        A.   When we arrived there, there were other workers from the Hygiene

12     company, also workers from Rahovec.  Our task was just to carry the

13     bodies to the truck.

14        Q.   And how many bodies did you carry on that occasion?

15        A.   About 90 bodies.

16        Q.   And in what state were these 90 bodies?

17        A.   They were decomposed.  They had probably been buried a long time

18     before we dug them out, but I don't know exactly the time when they were

19     buried.  However, the bodies were decomposed, and there was a stench.

20        Q.   Okay.  Where were these bodies transported to after you had left

21     them in the vehicles?

22        A.   At the Prizren morgue.  All the bodies, we took them to the

23     Prizren morgue.  We unloaded them in the garages of the hospital.

24        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us, were these bodies ever reburied?

25        A.   No.  Five or six days after we brought the bodies to Prizren, we

Page 565

 1     were ordered to take all the bodies to Prishtina for autopsy.  So within

 2     a period of four or five days, we took these bodies to Prishtina for

 3     autopsy, and then we returned them to Prizren.

 4        Q.   And after you had returned them to Prizren, were they left in

 5     Prizren, or were they buried somewhere?

 6        A.   Some of the bodies were taken to Rahovec, some others to Xerxe,

 7     and some others to Dusanov near Prizren.  And three bodies were buried in

 8     the Prizren cemetery.

 9        Q.   Can you, first of all, mark the location where the bodies were

10     buried in Orahovac and circle it on the map.

11        A.   May I mark it here?  Because it's clearer.

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And can you mark a 2 next to this circle?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   How many bodies were, roughly, buried -- reburied in this

17     Orahovac burial place?

18        A.   At Rahovec, about 30 or 30 [as interpreted] bodies were taken

19     there and about 15 or 16 in Xerxe, and in Dusanov, nine or ten bodies,

20     approximately.

21        Q.   Can you encircle Xerxe now and mark a 3 next to it, please.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   I can't read your 3.  If you could please mark another 3 next to

24     this circle where you belief Xerxe is.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 566

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And for the record, could you spell Xerxe?

 2        A.   X-r-c-e.

 3        Q.   And can you now encircle Dusanova?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Mark 4 next to it, please.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             And now can you encircle roughly where the cemetery in Prizren

 9     is?

10        A.   So shall I encircle Prizren?  Because I don't see any other place

11     here.  I don't see the cemetery here.

12        Q.   Okay, fine.  Can you mark a 5 next to this, please, next to your

13     circle there.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   So you told us initially the bodies were exhumed in Pusto Selo,

16     which is marked here as number 1 here on the map.  You have explained to

17     us that they were reburied in four locations.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you have any explanation why these bodies were split up into

20     four groups and why these bodies were not reburied in Pusto Selo where

21     you had taken them in the first place?

22        A.   This I don't know.  It was our bosses who knew this best.  Our

23     order was -- they ordered us to bury the bodies at Xerxe, Dusanov,

24     Prizren, and Rahovec.  They know best why they split them into groups and

25     buried them in different locations, I mean, the directors, the bosses.  I

Page 567

 1     have no knowledge why they were taken to different places.  Our task was

 2     to take the bodies to the locations we were told, and this is what we

 3     did.

 4        Q.   And this reburial activity, in what month was it taking place and

 5     what year?

 6        A.   In 1999.

 7        Q.   And in which month of 1999?

 8        A.   April or May, approximately.

 9        Q.   And could you tell us approximately when did the policemen, the

10     Serb policemen, leave Hygiene company.  You mentioned yesterday that they

11     had moved to Hygiene company in 1999.

12        A.   When all the Serbs left Kosova, this is when the Serbian police

13     left, too, when NATO entered Kosova, NATO infantry forces.  So at that

14     time all the Serbs left Kosova, including the police.

15        Q.   And what month of 1999 was that when NATO entered Kosovo?

16        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know the month, but I think it was

17     June when NATO entered Kosova.

18        Q.   So at around that time the policemen left from the Public Hygiene

19     company in Prizren.

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions at this

22     point in time, Your Honour.  And we would seek to tender the map still.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you wish to tender the hard copy map that has

24     now been marked?  It will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00280, Your Honours.

Page 568

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, do you have some questions?

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I do

 3     have some questions for the witness.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gjogaj, my name is Veljko Djurdjic.  I'm a

 6     member of Mr. Djordjevic's team.  I have with me today Ms. Marie O'Leary,

 7     but our lead counsel is absent today, Mr. Dragoljub Djordjevic.

 8             My first question would be to pick up where we left off

 9     yesterday.  You marked two uniforms that your bosses wore.  That's what

10     you marked for us yesterday.  Can you describe both these uniforms for

11     us, please.

12        A.   The director Jova's uniform was a police uniform, while

13     Budimir Spasic's uniform was an army uniform.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Were these the same uniforms?

15        A.   No, they were not the same uniforms.  As I said earlier, Jova was

16     wearing a police uniform, while Buda, an army uniform.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you be more specific about the difference

18     between the two?

19        A.   Jova's uniform was a police uniform, blue camouflage uniform,

20     while Buda had a regular army uniform usually worn by reservists.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             Mr. Gjogaj, when was the last time you saw an image containing

23     these uniforms that you recognised before yesterday?

24        A.   You probably know that this is the third time that I appear here

25     as a witness before the Tribunal.  I've also been a witness before the

Page 569

 1     court in Belgrade.  And these are the same uniforms that I've pointed out

 2     in both courts.  I have completed regular army service in 1984, 1985, and

 3     I know uniforms very well, and I can recognise different uniforms.

 4        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, please listen to me carefully and try to answer my

 5     question and nothing but my question to avoid wasting time.

 6             As I said, you were shown yesterday this photograph with these

 7     uniforms.  Prior to seeing the uniforms in that photograph yesterday,

 8     when was the last time you set eyes on that photograph?

 9        A.   In 1999, when they were worn by my director and my boss.

10        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, I asked you prior to yesterday, when were you last

11     shown that same photograph, not when you actually saw the scene played

12     out live, as it were.

13        A.   When I was in Belgrade.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I have no choice but to tell you this.  You are not

15     telling the truth, sir.  I'm saying this based on the fact that the

16     Prosecutor informed us that on the 28th of January, 2009, you were shown

17     a photograph with uniforms.  This is pre-trial Exhibit 05162, an image, a

18     photograph, containing four uniforms, two of them marked with an X.  And

19     you were the person who marked the Xs back in 1999 when you were talking

20     to an investigator of The Hague Tribunal in Prizren.  Is that true, what

21     I'm suggesting to you, sir?

22        A.   Of course during the preparations for this testimony I saw these

23     photographs.

24        Q.   Why didn't you say so straight away, then?

25        A.   I thought you were asking me of the time when I last saw the

Page 570

 1     uniform as such.

 2        Q.   Therefore, it's true that the photograph already bore markings in

 3     relation to the uniforms that you identified; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             Mr. Gjogaj, can you tell me whether your recollection of the

 7     event that you described is better now, clearer now, than it was when you

 8     first related your story to the investigator of this International

 9     Tribunal?

10        A.   It is possible that I left out details about the event, but at

11     the time I told things as they happened.  I told the truth.

12        Q.   My question was, is your recollection of the events clearer now

13     than it was back in 1999 when you first gave that statement?  Which is

14     clearer?

15        A.   It was back then when it was clearer, the event.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gjogaj.  That's as much as I thought.

17             I am, however, surprised that after nearly ten years, yesterday

18     and today happened to be the first time that you told us about certain

19     facts that you had never addressed before.  Let me draw up a quick

20     summary for you of the facts that I have in mind.

21             First of all, you tell us that your director was wearing a

22     uniform during the war, a fact you never mentioned to the investigators

23     or, indeed, this Trial Chamber or, indeed, this Tribunal.  Is that true?

24        A.   I've always mentioned this detail.  The director, of course, was

25     wearing police clothes, and I've mentioned this detail at all times.

Page 571

 1     This is a fact.  He was wearing a uniform.

 2        Q.   Fine.  We can go through all of your statements, then.  You never

 3     mentioned before this statement that you were accompanied by

 4     Director Jova to --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand where to.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So what you're suggesting is that you said all these things

 8     before; right?

 9        A.   I always said that Jova and Buda were with us, because nobody

10     would dare go and do the job we did at night-time at that time.  So Buda

11     and Jova were always there, and the police escort, too.

12        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, all I asked was about Director Jova, not about Buda.

13     Do you still maintain that you said earlier on as well that Director Jova

14     was at the firing range with you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  This is bound to come up later on again.  Mr. Gjogaj,

17     where did you attend elementary school?

18        A.   In Leshan village, Suhareka municipality.

19        Q.   What about your classmates?  Were they children of different

20     ethnicities?

21        A.   They were of different ethnicities, but at that time things were

22     more normal.  We lived in harmony in school.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday and in earlier statements you said that you

24     were an Ashkalin.  Does that make any difference at all?

25        A.   Ashkali are those who do not speak the Roma language.  They all

Page 572

 1     fall within Roma as ethnicity, but Ashkalis do not speak the Roma

 2     language, so that's why I feel as an Ashkali but, of course, as part of

 3     the Roma ethnicity.

 4        Q.   Would I be right to say that Albanian is your real mother tongue?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             You told us before about serving your military term; where and

 8     when?

 9        A.   I served my military term in Sarajevo in 1984, 1985.

10        Q.   Could you tell us what sort of uniform you were wearing during

11     your regular military term?

12        A.   The olive-green/grey uniform.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Was it the same type of uniform worn by Buda during

14     the war?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   So what is the difference between the uniform you wore and the

17     one he wore?

18        A.   When I was a soldier, my uniform was a plain olive-green/grey

19     colour, while Buda's uniform was a camouflage one, the one that the army

20     wore during the war.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Were the kind of uniform that you had during your

22     military term being used during the war as well?

23        A.   There were some among the reservists, military reservists, of the

24     Serbian army.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 573

 1             You say that you were working with a company called Hygijena.

 2     Was that gainful employment?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Was your salary regular?

 5        A.   Yes, regular.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             When the shelling started, were you mobilised into units of the

 8     civil protection?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   As a member of the civil protection, did you in fact continue to

11     perform your daily duties, as usual, at the Hygijena company?

12        A.   No.  Before I was mobilised and issued with the uniform of civil

13     protection, I worked as a cleaner on the streets; we collected the

14     garbage.  But afterwards we were mobilised, and we were given uniforms.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could you describe the uniforms that you were given

16     as a member of the civil protection?

17        A.   They were green.

18        Q.   What exactly did the uniforms comprise?

19        A.   Trousers, the jacket, and the cap.

20        Q.   Did you have a shirt too?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you.  What about your boss, Budimir Spasic?  Was he

23     mobilised into a civil protection unit as well?

24        A.   Buda had a military uniform.

25        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, that's not what I asked you.  I asked you if

Page 574

 1     Budimir Spasic, too, had been mobilised into the civilian protection,

 2     whether he also worked there in the civilian protection.

 3        A.   He was not issued the uniform of the civilian protection, but he

 4     did accompany us on the ground at all times.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And he did his regular job, the job that he did in

 6     Hygijena; am I right?

 7        A.   Can you please repeat the question.  I didn't hear it, I'm sorry.

 8        Q.   Let me repeat the question.  Your boss, Budimir Spasic, did his

 9     regular work in Hygijena on a daily basis, just as you did?

10        A.   Yes, he did his regular job.  We did what he ordered us to.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And he received his salary from Hygijena, just as you

12     did, for the work that he did.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             Mr. Gjogaj, let us now try and explain where this Hygijena, this

16     company, is actually located.  You are familiar with Prizren, aren't you?

17        A.   Yes.  The Hygijena firm is on the west side of the city, where

18     the road to Albania goes.  At the end of this bridge, there is the

19     Hygijena company or firm, west of Prizren.

20        Q.   Yes, Mr. Gjogaj, but this is all rather abstract when we tell the

21     Trial Chamber and the Prosecutor that it's in the western part of

22     Prizren.  Your company is on the road leading to Vrbnica, to the border

23     crossing; is that not so?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   About 1 kilometre before the place where your company is, if you

Page 575

 1     move down the road, since there is a slight slope, there is the district

 2     court in Prizren, and then there is the building of the Prizren SUP; is

 3     that so?

 4        A.   That's right, yes.  Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.

 6             Is it correct that after the air-strikes started, because of the

 7     danger caused by the air-strikes, that the Prizren SUP was relocated to

 8     several locations?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I think that the SUP was where I thought it was.

10     Whether there were or not police inside this, I don't know.  Whether SUP

11     was placed to another place, I don't know.

12        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, I know that the building remained where it was

13     before, but do you know that the people from the building left it and

14     worked in other buildings around Prizren, for instance, in the

15     Putnik Hotel, in the water management company, in the Pristinska Banka

16     building next to the Theranda Hotel, and in some other locations?

17        A.   I saw some police at Putnik Hotel because I could see them going

18     to work, because I could say that on my way to work in Hygijena.  But as

19     to why they were there, they were established there or did something,

20     this I don't know.

21        Q.   Would you agree with me that in your company those police

22     officers did their regular work during the war?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             Is it correct that there is a large parking lot in front of your

Page 576

 1     company and that all of your vehicles, vehicles belonging to the company,

 2     were actually parked there?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that there was a guard who did not allow anyone to

 5     enter the company compound, allowing only those vehicles who were

 6     entitled to the access to pass through?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Am I correct when I say that you don't really know what kind of

 9     work the police did, the police that used the offices in your company?

10        A.   This is a fact that I did not know.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             Mr. Gjogaj, now I would like to move on to what we were talking

13     about today, Pusto Selo, in fact.  Mr. Gjogaj, am I correct when I say

14     that you were taken to Pusto Selo by your boss, Budimir Spasic?

15        A.   Yes, but it was not only myself.  It was not only myself; there

16     were others as well.

17        Q.   Is it true, is it true that you were in a group of workers led by

18     Budimir Spasic and that you went to Pusto Selo together with the police?

19        A.   Yes, it's true.

20        Q.   Is it true that you went to Pusto Selo in day-time?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is it true that your colleagues from Orahovac also came together

23     with you to Pusto Selo, those people who joined you in Orahovac?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is it true that on the 24th of June or, rather, on the 27th and

Page 577

 1     the 1st of March, 1999, when you were giving your statement to an

 2     investigator of the International Tribunal, you did not know Mirko's last

 3     name?  That was the son of your boss.

 4        A.   Yes.  When I started working, of course I didn't know.  Then

 5     afterwards I learned that through my colleagues, that he was Jova's son.

 6     And since Jova's last name was Vujicic, so I presume that his son's last

 7     name would be the same.

 8        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, you were not listening to my question.  I will have

 9     to ask it again.  Please listen carefully.  You gave a statement to an

10     investigator of The Hague Tribunal on the 27th of February and the 1st of

11     March, 1999.  And on that occasion you stated that you were accompanied

12     by Mirko, who was son of Director Jova who worked in the Prizren SUP as a

13     police officer, and you said that you didn't know his last name.  Is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can I then conclude that at that time you did not

17     know Jova's last name?

18        A.   No, I did not, because it was only the beginning of my work.  I

19     was a new worker there.

20        Q.   I'm talking about February 1999 and the 1st of March, 1999.

21        A.   What are you asking me about?

22             MR. NEUNER:  Sorry, I'm just rising because, if I could advise my

23     learned colleague, the statement taken by the OTP was from 2000,

24     February, and from early March 2000.  Because you just mentioned it --

25     the translation said that the statement was taken in February 1999.  At

Page 578

 1     that time the war -- the air war had not even been broken out.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you to my learned friend.

 3     You're entirely right.  I would like to correct -- to have all references

 4     to 1999 corrected in the transcript to 2000.  My learned friend is indeed

 5     right, because the investigator took the statement in the year 2000.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, could I mention that we don't alter

 7     the record.  We rely on what is here stated where it is made clear that

 8     you had meant 2000 and not 1999.  So the correct position is set out in

 9     the transcript.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, do you remember or do you understand my question?

12        A.   Can you ask the question?

13        Q.   Yes.  On the 27th of February, 2000, and on the 1st of March,

14     2000, did -- or, rather, you gave a statement and you signed that

15     statement.  The statement was given to an investigator of the OTP of the

16     International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.  And in that

17     statement you indicated you were accompanied by Mirko, son of Director

18     Jova, who worked in the Prizren SUP as a police officer, whose last name

19     you didn't know.

20        A.   Yes.  And this is what I'm saying to you.  I didn't know Mirko's

21     last name.  I mentioned this two or three times.  I'm not denying that I

22     didn't know it.  What shall I say?  And it was normal that after awhile I

23     learned it, because I found out that he was Jova's son and that his last

24     name was Vujicic.

25        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, in this quote that I just read out, you mentioned not

Page 579

 1     only the son of Director Jova but Director Jova himself, indicating that

 2     you did not know his last name.

 3        A.   I heard of my colleagues that Jova's last name was Vujicic.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  When did you hear that?

 5        A.   After 2000.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             I have to go back to your additional statement.  I think you gave

 8     it on the 28th of January, 2001, which was the first time when you

 9     mentioned the fact that your director's last name was Vujicic.  That was

10     the first time that you mentioned this before this Tribunal or, rather,

11     before the Prosecution.  And yesterday and today you stated that in front

12     of the Trial Chamber.

13        A.   What are you asking me about?

14        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, after the first statement that you gave to an

15     investigator, you gave another one on the 24th of June, 2000, and then in

16     2002 you testified at the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.  Then, in 2006,

17     you testified at the Milutinovic et al trial, and you never mentioned the

18     last name of your director or manager.  You did so for the first time on

19     the 28th of January, when you spoke to the Prosecution, and then you

20     repeated that yesterday and today in the courtroom.

21        A.   I believe that probably they didn't ask me about his last name,

22     so why should I mention him, that name?

23        Q.   Well, how can I ask you about the last name when you said that

24     you didn't know the last name in 1999?

25        A.   Of course, in 1999 I didn't know my director's last name.

Page 580

 1        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, apart from giving statements for the Tribunal, you

 2     also gave statements in front of a court in Belgrade; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Before you testified in that trial, who proofed you?

 5        A.   You're asking me where?  I didn't talk with anyone.  I received

 6     three summons from the Belgrade court, and then the police came and took

 7     me right away.  I didn't have time for any preparations.  So I gave the

 8     same statement that I gave here.  I shouldn't say -- I couldn't say more

 9     things than I had said in the previous statement.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             Mr. Gjogaj, is it true that in Pusto Selo all the bodies were

12     buried in individual graves?

13        A.   Yes, they were, one in each.

14        Q.   A small digression here.  Do you know that Mirko, Jova's son,

15     worked as a crime scene technician in the Prizren SUP?  It's the team

16     that goes out to the crime scene when there are some crimes committed,

17     murders or traffic accidents, things of that sort.  Do you know that?

18        A.   I didn't know what Mirko did when he was in SUP, but every time

19     he was with us he took photos of the corpses, as he did when he was with

20     us.  As to what job he had in SUP, this I don't know.  The day he was

21     with us in Pastasele, he took photos of all the corpses, and then they

22     put the corpses in bags.

23        Q.   Thank you.  But now that we have come to the topic of what he did

24     and now that you mention that, in the additional statement you recalled

25     that he did some kind of tests on the hands of the bodies that had been

Page 581

 1     exhumed; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that all the bodies that had been exhumed

 4     were covered with sheets and blankets?

 5        A.   They were already buried in sheets and blankets.  When we removed

 6     the corpses from the graves, they were in this condition.  They were

 7     covered in sheets or blankets.

 8        Q.   Is it true that afterwards those bodies that were wrapped up in

 9     blankets and sheets, after the police carried out the on-site

10     investigation that some markings were put on the bodies?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is it true that those bodies, once they were put in body-bags,

13     that the bags themselves were numbered, that a number was affixed to each

14     bag?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it true that all those bodies in bags were taken to Prizren

17     and put in the garage there?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Is it true that upon the return from Pristina, from the post

20     mortem, that you put those bodies in a separate place so that they

21     wouldn't get mixed up with the bodies -- with the bags containing the

22     bodies that had not been autopsied yet?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that in Pusto Selo you couldn't see the

25     bodies because they were covered with blankets or sheets and that is why

Page 582

 1     you could not tell the investigator what the bodies had looked like?

 2        A.   It is correct.  We couldn't see them because they were covered in

 3     these blankets and sheets.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gjogaj.

 5             Is it true that you told the Tribunal investigator that in the

 6     morgue in Pristina you learned from a guard there that the police in

 7     Prizren had received a court order to examine the bodies?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please explain to me how did you get to

10     Dr. Hidajet Luftija, and that now pertains to your conversation or

11     interview with the investigators?

12        A.   Dr. Hidajet Luftija, he was a doctor there.  I know him only as a

13     doctor by sight, but not more than that.  He performed the autopsies at

14     the hospital of Prizren, in the morgue.  He used to work in the hospital.

15        Q.   Do you know that Dr. Hidajet Luftija was an expert -- registered

16     as an expert at the district court in Prizren?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  But you said in your statement that Dr. Hidajet did

19     not examine the bodies in Prizren.

20        A.   It is a fact that he did not control these bodies, because we

21     took them in Pristina.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, should I go on, or

24     is this a good time for a break?

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, if it's convenient, we will break now, and

Page 583

 1     we will resume at 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, would I be right to say that you were no witness to

 7     this and you don't actually know how the persons came to grieve whose

 8     bodies you dug up and then transported to Pusto Selo?

 9        A.   It is true that this I don't know.

10        Q.   If I may just latch on to this.  You don't know how the persons

11     whose bodies were found at the firing range and the garbage dump were

12     killed, do you?

13        A.   That's correct.  I don't know.  I don't know who had brought

14     these bodies there.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             Mr. Gjogaj, you said that 30 bodies were sent back to Prizren

17     following autopsy and then were taken to Orahovac from there.  Did you go

18     to Orahovac yourself and were you actually inside the lorry that was

19     taking the bodies to Orahovac?

20             MR. NEUNER:  I'm sorry to interrupt my learned colleague, but I

21     just wanted to point out that you have suggested to this witness that 30

22     bodies were sent back to Prizren.  As far as I have understood the

23     witness's testimony, he said some 90 bodies have been dug up in

24     Pusto Selo, and they all have been brought to Prizren.  I'm just -- if

25     you could please clarify this.  Here you're suggesting that only 30 of

Page 584

 1     the 90 bodies have been brought from Pastasele to Prizren.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend, I believe the

 3     record is not correct.  I said that the bodies were brought to Prizren

 4     and then 30 of them were taken to Orahovac and buried.  I'm asking the

 5     witness whether he was in the lorry taking the bodies to Orahovac.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm not clear in my memory, Mr. Djurdjic, but I

 7     thought the witness merely said some were then taken to Orahovac for

 8     burial.  I don't think he gave a specific number, but my memory may be

 9     faulty.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe my learned

11     friend the Prosecutor asked the question and that was the answer

12     provided.  I'm nearly certain.  But this is not about the figure itself.

13     The gist of my question is, was this witness in Orahovac when the bodies

14     were taken there?  Was he actually there for the burial?

15             JUDGE PARKER:  I think we're dealing with some bodies, yes.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Indeed.

18        A.   It is true that I wasn't in Rahovec.  I was up to Xerxe in

19     another vehicle because other bodies were buried at Xerxe, but I didn't

20     go to Rahovec.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have

23     Exhibit D001-3522.  Can we have the photographs from this set, please.

24     Perhaps my assistant could simply check the page numbers.  This is

25     page 21.

Page 585

 1        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, do you recognise the places shown in these

 2     photographs?

 3        A.   It was the first time that I worked in Pastasele.  I had never

 4     been there before.  This could well be the village where we exhumed the

 5     bodies, but as I said, this was my first time in Pastasele, and I'm not

 6     familiar with the village and this location.

 7        Q.   I know that, but could you please look at photograph number 3 and

 8     see if that rings a bell.

 9        A.   No, I don't recall this location.  I'm sorry, but I don't recall

10     it.  Even if it is Pastasele indeed, I will again like to point out here

11     that that was the first time that I went to Pastasele, on that day to

12     exhume these bodies.  You can see graves here on the photograph, and at

13     the location where I was, there weren't any graves.  It was like a

14     meadow.

15        Q.   Well, this strikes me as a number of individual graves, but it's

16     irrelevant since you can't really identify the location.  Thank you very

17     much anyway, Witness.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] We can have this exhibit removed

19     now.

20        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, I would like to move on to a set of questions in

21     relation to the firing range and the garbage dump.  In order to speed

22     things along, I will be using your statement to the investigators of The

23     Hague Tribunal, dated the 24th of June, 2000.  You probably remember

24     Mr. Arne Kristiansen who was the interviewer who interviewed you.

25             Mr. Gjogaj, is it true that in April 1999, at about 2000 hours,

Page 586

 1     Budimir Spasic came to your flat?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is it true that on that occasion he was accompanied by

 4     Shefki Salihu, Xhevdet Mazreku, and Isuf Krasniqi?  Shefki Salihu.

 5        A.   Shefki Salihu, yes; this is correct.  These were my colleagues.

 6     We worked together, and they also had the civil protection uniforms,

 7     Shefki Salihu, Xhevdet Mazreku, and Isuf Krasniqi.

 8        Q.   Is it true that you were picked up by men in a white Volkswagen

 9     van driven by Buda?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Is it true that you then drove back to your company's

12     headquarters in order to then proceed down the road to Suva Reka?

13             Is it true that at Lubishte, near the police station, you took a

14     right turn and proceeded down a dirt track?

15        A.   Yes.  We are talking about the firing range; right?

16        Q.   Thank you.  Indeed, we are.  You then stopped at a place called

17     the firing range; right?

18        A.   [No interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please be asked to observe a

21     pause and answer, since there are two different languages involved in

22     this examination.  Thank you.

23             THE COURT REPORTER:  The last answer is missed.

24             MR. NEUNER:  I'm just told by the court reporter she couldn't get

25     the last answer of the witness.  If the witness could please repeat his

Page 587

 1     answer.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, is it true that you then went to a place called

 4     Streliste, the firing range?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, am I right to say that this is an open meadow, a

 7     large open area?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             Is it not true that you did not count the bodies that you carried

11     into the lorry?

12        A.   I didn't count the bodies, but as I stated in my statement and

13     here, there were approximately 80 or 90 bodies.  The truck was fully

14     loaded.  But in terms of counting, it's a fact that I didn't count the

15     bodies.  It was not only me who was loading bodies onto the truck.  My

16     colleagues were also doing the same thing.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is it not true that you saw no wounds on the bodies

18     and that you did not recognise a single body?

19        A.   This is correct.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Is it not true that you never saw the bodies that

21     were in the lorry?

22        A.   In what way do you mean I didn't see these bodies?  These bodies

23     were exhumed, and we loaded them onto the truck.  Of course I saw the

24     bodies.  I don't know how to explain this.

25        Q.   No, no, you're quite right.  What I mean is this:  You said there

Page 588

 1     were two lorries, and you loaded the bodies onto one of those.  You did

 2     not see the bodies that were in the other lorry - that's what I mean -

 3     did you?

 4        A.   I didn't see those bodies because it was the Serb police that was

 5     involved in this work.

 6        Q.   Is it not true that the police provided security for your work?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   Is it not true that you then went to the garbage dump by getting

 9     onto a refrigerator truck, and you climbed into the cabin of that truck

10     and then drove there; right?

11        A.   Right.  That's correct.

12        Q.   Is it not true that you saw no wounds on the bodies that you

13     loaded onto the lorry at the garbage dump, and you did not identify a

14     single body, did you?

15        A.   This is also true.

16        Q.   Does the same thing not apply to the firing range, no wounds that

17     you saw and not a single body that you were able to identify?

18        A.   It's true.

19        Q.   Is it not true that when you finished your job at the garbage

20     dump, Buda drove you back to the company in his Volkswagen and then you

21     all drove home?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             Mr. Gjogaj, I've gone through the whole statement.  Not a single

25     reference to your director Jova.  This was, as I said, on the 24th of

Page 589

 1     June, 1999.  Yesterday and today you've made several references to Jova

 2     being with you when you went to the firing range and the garbage dump.

 3        A.   It is true that Jova came for the first time at Streliste, the

 4     firing range, and at the garbage dump.  He did not accompany us earlier.

 5     Only Buda accompanied us on earlier occasions.  But that was the first

 6     time that he came with us that night, when we worked there.

 7        Q.   All right.  In that case Jova did not go to the firing range with

 8     you from Prizren?

 9        A.   He didn't.

10        Q.   Only Buda was in the car with you on your way to the firing

11     range; right?  But you told us today, sir, that it was --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the speaker's please

13     avoid overlap.  The interpreters did not hear counsel's question.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  You're, I'm afraid, coming in too quickly with

15     your next question, Mr. Djurdjic, because it's necessary, as we're

16     interpreting into several languages, to go through the process and have

17     the interpretation finished before the next question can be picked up.

18     If you would just watch the screen in front of you, I would suggest.

19     Thank you.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to take that into

21     account, Your Honours.  I do have a belief that the witness both times

22     understood my questions and provided contradictory answers on both

23     occasions.  I asked about 1999, the statement from 1999, and said that

24     there was not a single reference to Director Jova in that statement,

25     whereas yesterday and today he suddenly remembered to tell us in the

Page 590

 1     additional statement dated the 28th of January about his departure and

 2     his presence at the firing range.  So that's what my question was about

 3     fundamentally and that's where we started.

 4        Q.   Do you understand me, Mr. Gjogaj?

 5        A.   Yes, I do understand you.  I earlier mentioned that Jova was at

 6     the firing range with us in -- during that night, but he wasn't with us

 7     at Pastasele.  Only Budimir was with us at Pastasele.

 8        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, I am reading back to you your statement dated the

 9     24th of June, 2000, in which you made no reference to Director Jova at

10     the firing range, that being with you on the way to the firing range,

11     being with you on the way back to Prizren, or, indeed, in wearing a

12     uniform, a uniform of any kind.  You never mentioned him at all in fact.

13     So what I'm asking you now is, how come that back in 1999 you made not a

14     single reference to him, whereas now over the last three or four days,

15     all of a sudden you're mentioning all these things.  That's all I'm

16     asking you.  Nothing more than that.

17        A.   Maybe I wasn't asked about this when I was giving a statement.  I

18     do not know exactly the dates when I gave a statement, but I will repeat

19     it again:  Jova was with us at the firing range when we exhumed the

20     bodies.  He wasn't with us at Pastasele.  I hope you understand me.

21     Maybe the investigators didn't ask me if Jova was there or not.  Maybe

22     this was asked of me, and it is stated as a fact in some of the

23     statements.

24             MR. NEUNER:  May I just ask, because the place name Pusto Selo

25     has been a couple of times mentioned in the last page, and each time I

Page 591

 1     noted that, for example, page 38, line 15, it is mentioned as

 2     "Pastasele."  And 39, line 2, it's also mentioned as "Pastasele."  Maybe

 3     it can be clarify, I understand -- maybe it can be clarified whether

 4     Pusto Selo and Pastasele are the same locations.  Otherwise, it looks

 5     confusing to me.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  I think you are seeing the place name in two

 7     different languages, Mr. Neuner.  That is my understanding of it.  But

 8     the witness may be able to assist us.

 9             Do you want to explore this, Mr. Djurdjic?

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, when you gave your statement on the 27th of February

12     and the 1st of March, 2000, to an investigator, you were talking about

13     your testimony, about Pusto Selo, that village or location.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16        A.   As I said earlier, this was the first time that I went to this

17     village, whether it was called Pastasele or Pusto Selo, that I don't

18     know.  Maybe I gave the name of the village incorrectly, because I didn't

19     know the name.

20        Q.   But now we have the correct version of the name; is that so?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             I don't want to deal any more with the statements that you gave

24     to the investigators of the ICTY.  Now I would like to move on to the

25     statements that you gave in the Milutinovic et al case before this

Page 592

 1     Tribunal, the evidence.

 2             Mr. Gjogaj, when we're talking about the camouflage uniforms,

 3     will you agree with me that in every shop with hunting and fishing

 4     supplies in Prizren, you could purchase before the war a camouflage

 5     uniform?  It was used by hunters and fishermen when they went out to hunt

 6     and fish.

 7        A.   You mean today, now, or before the war?

 8        Q.   Before the war, before the war.  Before 1999, in shops where

 9     hunters and fishermen bought their supplies, they could buy the

10     multi-coloured camouflage uniforms, as they called it.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers are kindly

12     asked not to overlap.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I didn't see that

14     such uniforms could be bought.  Maybe there were, but I don't know.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now tell me, the police officers who worked

17     in the Prizren SUP, what kind of uniforms did they have?  I'm talking

18     about the colour.

19        A.   The police uniforms, the same colour that generally police

20     officers wore, blue.  Now, I can't tell you the exact colour, but I know

21     very well that you could distinguish immediately the police uniform

22     colour.  I don't know if you understand what I'm meaning.

23        Q.   I understand what you're saying, but I wanted to ask you, for

24     instance, you know Milan Djuricic from Prizren.  He's a police officer.

25        A.   No, I don't.

Page 593

 1        Q.   When you see a policeman in the street, a policeman from the

 2     Prizren SUP, could you please describe the colour of his uniform.

 3        A.   Look here, they used to wear all sorts of colours, I mean the

 4     police, but the SUP police used the usually uniform.  I know that the

 5     police uniform colour was camouflage, blue camouflage.

 6        Q.   And was there another blue uniform that was not camouflage, that

 7     was single colour?

 8        A.   Yes, there were.  Jova's son, for example, had such a uniform.

 9     It was one colour, solid colour.  When we were in Pastasele, the

10     director's son, as I said, was with us, Mirko.  His uniform was one

11     colour, of one colour.  It was a -- even among the police, some of them

12     wore a different colour from the others.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             Do you remember that as you testified in September 2006 before

15     this Tribunal you stated that the police officers had worn green uniforms

16     with a pattern?

17        A.   Can you please repeat your question because I am not sure I

18     understood it right.

19        Q.   You testified before this Tribunal in September, the 21st of

20     September, 2006.  You stated that the police officers who were at the

21     firing range had worn green camouflage uniforms.

22        A.   If you ask me about the colour of the uniforms of the people in

23     the shooting range, it was that of the police officers.  But those that

24     had surrounded us and protected us, of course I didn't see what colour

25     the uniform was because they simply were there to protect us, serve as

Page 594

 1     our guards.  They escorted us to Prizren.  Those I can describe what

 2     colour their uniform was.  It was the same blue colour that our director

 3     had.  But as to the others, they were about 50 metres away or 60 metres

 4     away from where we were working.  Those who had surrounded us to protect

 5     us, I can't describe the colour of their uniform.

 6        Q.   Listen to me carefully, Mr. Gjogaj, to what I'm asking you.  I'm

 7     reading and I'm telling you that as you testified on the 21st of

 8     September, 2006, in the Milutinovic et al case, you stated that the

 9     police officers wore a green uniform with a pattern.  That's what you

10     said.

11        A.   Maybe I have said that.  I am not saying that I didn't say it.

12     Since you are putting it to me and it is written, maybe I said so.  But I

13     may tell you also that I may have forgotten, you know, because the work I

14     used to do was a very difficult job, and it was a job done under

15     pressure, you know.  And my mind maybe was not in the right, let's say,

16     place at that moment, so I may have forgotten.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gjogaj.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] But I will have to provide a

19     reference for this question.  It's Exhibit D001-0883.  That's the

20     transcript from the 21st of September, 2006, page -- page 3729, lines 20

21     to 25, and page 30, lines 1 through 7.

22        Q.   Mr. Gjogaj, I would also like to put to you a portion of the

23     transcript from the Milutinovic et al case from the 21st of September,

24     2006, where you said when asked by Judge Bonomy that there may have been

25     bodies in the second pit at the firing range but that you were told not

Page 595

 1     to interfere with them, that you were doing your job and they were doing

 2     their job.

 3        A.   That's true.  This is what they told us:  You mind your own work;

 4     they have their own work to do.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gjogaj.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

 7     Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Neuner.

10             MR. NEUNER:  I would have a few clarifying questions.

11             If I could ask that P277 is being brought up on the screen,

12     please.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

14        Q.   And while this is coming up, it has to do with the first grave

15     with which we were -- about which we were talking yesterday and today.

16             MR. NEUNER:  If you could enlarge a little bit on the encircled

17     number 1, please.  Even a little bit more, if possible.

18        Q.   I'm asking this question here because yesterday and today I've

19     observed a couple of descriptions for this place, and maybe you can help

20     us.  I have observed the word "Streliste" being used for that place.

21     I've observed the name "Korishe" being observed for that place.  I've

22     observed the formulation of "firing range" being used for that place and

23     also observed the name "shooting range" observed for that place.

24             Could you, having just heard these four formulations, enlighten

25     us briefly where exactly were the two graves?

Page 596

 1        A.   The graves were in Korishe because this shooting range was not in

 2     Korishe.  It was below the police check-point.  Where I did the first

 3     marking, the distance is 10, 15 metres, maybe 20 eventually.  The police

 4     worked with us in the other place.  I worked -- we worked where I marked

 5     the place.

 6        Q.   I didn't understand your explanation fully, but first of all is

 7     it clear that we are talking about one and the same location where the

 8     two graves were?

 9        A.   Which places are you talking me -- are you asking me?

10        Q.   Without giving it a label right now, the label Koriste,

11     Streliste, firing range or shooting range, are we talking about one

12     location where the two graves were located next to each other?  That's

13     how I understood your testimony.

14        A.   It is one place, but Streliste -- by Streliste is the place where

15     the garbage dump was, whereas this other place is a little bit far from

16     Suhareka, 300, 400 metres far, before you go to the garbage place.

17        Q.   Okay.  But both graves were located at one location; do you agree

18     with this?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And how now, after all these years, what label or what place name

21     would you give to these two graves?  Because, as I said, throughout your

22     testimony a couple of different words were used for that location.  How

23     do you wish to have this location be described today?

24        A.   That place is in Lubishte, below the police checking point.  Both

25     villages have two different names.  I cannot change them.

Page 597

 1        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell me which of the names I read to you are

 2     villages, first of all.

 3        A.   Lubishte is one, Korishe is the another, whereas the garbage is

 4     near Shpinadjinadi.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... asking for the garbage dump

 6     now.  Following up on what you said, is it correct to say that the

 7     location of the graves is in between the place Lubishte -- the villages

 8     of Lubishte and the villages of Korishe?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   At the place which you encircled here on P277 and marked with a

11     1?

12        A.   Yes, it's approximately, because it's a map, you know.

13        Q.   I want to move on to some questions of my learned friend relating

14     to Pusto Selo.  He had mentioned or put to you that tests had been

15     performed in Pusto Selo on the bodies -- on the hands of the exhumed

16     bodies.  He had mentioned that the bodies were covered with sheets and

17     blankets in Pusto Selo and that markings were put on the bodies once

18     exhumed.  He had also put to you that the exhumed bodies were put into

19     body-bags.  Do you remember having received these questions?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What I want to ask you now is if I put you now to the firing

22     range and to the garbage dump, could you answer the following questions:

23     That night when the bodies were exhumed at both places, were there any

24     tests performed on the hands of these exhumed bodies?

25        A.   No.

Page 598

 1        Q.   Were there -- were the bodies, before they were loaded onto the

 2     truck by you, covered with any sheets or blankets?

 3        A.   No.  They were simply dressed in civilian clothes, the way they

 4     had -- happened to be dressed when they were killed.

 5        Q.   So you did not put any blankets around them before you loaded

 6     them on the truck, did you?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And did you or somebody else put any markings on these bodies

 9     before they were put on the refrigerator truck?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   And did the bodies were put into body-bags at the firing range or

12     at the garbage dump --

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... before you loaded them onto

15     the refrigerator truck?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   I want to finally address one small issue relating to the photo

18     parade touched upon by my learned colleague.  Page 18, lines 18 to 22 of

19     today's transcript, you were asked about the proofing we too had a couple

20     of days ago and about the camouflage photo-board.  Could I ask you, did I

21     show you a black-and-white photo-board or a coloured photo-board on that

22     occasion?

23        A.   It was a coloured photo-board.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. NEUNER:  If I could have the 65 ter number 2375 being shown,

Page 599

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to respond

 4     promptly.  This exhibit has been replaced.  We received 2375 -- did I

 5     hear that correctly?  It was submitted to us as a replacement on the 3rd

 6     of February, 2007, at 1700 hours, and I already said that in the

 7     additional statement it was indicated that the witness was shown

 8     Prosecution Exhibit 5162, and that is not the pre-trial number.  It was

 9     given after the pre-trial brief was submitted.  It's an exhibit that I

10     believe is a depiction of uniforms that an investigator of the Tribunal

11     or, rather, of the OTP showed the witness - I may be mistaken now, it may

12     have been either in February or in June 2000 - where it was already

13     stated what uniforms are depicted.

14             My learned friend the Prosecutor is right, this exhibit is in

15     colour, the previous one was black and white, but the previous exhibit

16     contained marks, markings by the witness who recognised the uniforms.

17     But the uniforms were in the same order, they were depicted in the same

18     order.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Neuner.

21             MR. NEUNER:  Yes.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you want to add something to this?

23             MR. NEUNER:  Very briefly.  The only point I think is made

24     already, that no black-and-white picture or photo-board was ever shown to

25     this witness - my learned colleague also understood that - but only a

Page 600

 1     colour photo-board.  That's the only short statement I would have at this

 2     point in time.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will take into

 5     account what my learned friend has just told us, but then I don't

 6     understand why the Exhibit 5162 was replaced and was now assigned this

 7     number, the number that was provided by my colleague now.

 8             MR. NEUNER:  I can give you an explanation for that, and I could

 9     even walk the witness through that.  The previous 65 ter number 5162 was

10     shown to the witness.  It is a colour photograph.  However -- and that's

11     also how we informed my learned colleague two days ago, why I e-mailed.

12     The technical quality of that photos were of a very low value.  In other

13     words, the camouflage colours, as they are depicted on this exhibit right

14     now in front of Your Honours, is of a higher quality so that one can

15     distinguish the camouflage pattern on it.

16             On this previous exhibit, 65 ter number 5162, when we made a

17     colour print-out and tried to use it with the witness, we basically saw

18     on the print-out itself it did not have any camouflage patterns any

19     longer because of the poor quality of the exhibit as such.  Once we had

20     found that out by showing it for the first time to the witness, we showed

21     him a proper quality image, which is now in front of Your Honours, and

22     asked then the question to the witness.

23             And having just undergone that exercise a few days ago, we

24     immediately endeavoured to inform the Defence, as we did, about that

25     fact, that we are seeking to replace the colour photo-board which is of a

Page 601

 1     poor quality with a high-quality picture depicting exactly the same

 2     uniforms.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4             MR. NEUNER:

 5        Q.   I've just one last question, Witness, to you.  At the time when

 6     we showed you the colour photocopy, were there any markings next to one

 7     of these camouflage patterns, when it was shown to you?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   So, in fact, after you told us that this is the uniform of Jova

10     and this is the uniform pattern of Budimir Spasic, you were given an

11     opportunity to mark where you believed that the camouflage pattern of the

12     uniform of both men was.

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions, Your

15     Honour.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Neuner.

19             You will be pleased to know that that completes the questions for

20     you.  The Chamber is thankful that you've come to The Hague and thankful

21     for the assistance that you've been able to give us.  You may now leave,

22     and the court officer will give you directions where to go.  Thank you,

23     indeed.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 602

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good morning, Your Honours.  The next Prosecution

 3     witness is Mr. Mustafa Dragaj.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  This witness will be testifying about the

 6     allegations in paragraph 72(C), 75(F), Schedule F, and paragraph 77 of

 7     the indictment.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon, sir.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you solemnly declare that the evidence you will

12     give to this Tribunal will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

13     the truth?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I declare that I will speak the

15     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  MUSTAFA DRAGAJ

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz will now ask some questions of you.

21             Ms. Kravetz.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

24        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you please state your name for the

25     record.

Page 603

 1        A.   Mustafa Dragaj.

 2        Q.   I understand, sir, that you're a Kosovo Albanian from the village

 3     of Lecina in Srbica or Skenderaj municipality?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How old are you, sir?

 6        A.   72 -- 73.

 7        Q.   In March 1999, sir, where were you living?

 8        A.   In March 1999 I lived in Leqina, until war started.

 9        Q.   Were most people in the village of Lecina Kosovo Albanians like

10     yourself, or was this a mixed village?

11        A.   Most of us were Albanians.  There were a few Serbs.

12        Q.   How big was the village of Lecina at the time?  Approximately how

13     many houses did it have?

14        A.   About 100 houses.

15        Q.   Sir, I want to start by asking you some questions about events

16     that took place in Lecina on 25th March, 1999.  Do you recall what, if

17     anything, extraordinary --

18        A.   I remember.  I remember they started to set fire to Leqina on the

19     26th of March.

20        Q.   Who started to -- I was starting to ask you about events that

21     took place in Lecina on the 25th of March, 1999.  Do you recall what, if

22     anything extraordinary, happened during that time?  And, sir, I would ask

23     you to wait until I finish asking my question before you start answering,

24     just so the interpreters can interpret your questions back into

25     English -- your answers back into English.

Page 604

 1        A.   On the 25th they shelled our village from Bellanica, Leqina.

 2     They shelled also -- my house on the 25th.

 3        Q.   When you say "they shelled the village," who are you referring

 4     to?

 5        A.   The Serb police and army.

 6        Q.   And when you say they shelled your village, is this something you

 7     were able to observe yourself from your house?

 8        A.   I didn't see it, but from my house you can see that it was in the

 9     direction of Bellanica because nobody could dare and go there and see.

10        Q.   When you say that it was in the direction of Belanica, are you

11     referring to the direction from which the shells were coming?

12        A.   Yes.  They came from Bellanica on the 25th.

13        Q.   Can you recall for how long the village of Belanica was shelled

14     on the 25th of March?

15        A.   It lasted for about two hours.  I didn't have a watch.

16        Q.   I understand.  At the time, where were you in the village when

17     this shelling was going on?

18        A.   On the 25th I was in Leqina.  On the 26th I left Leqina at about

19     5.00 in the afternoon.  The others left in the morning.

20        Q.   Why did you decide to leave Lecina on the 26th of March?

21        A.   Because they were burning our houses and shelling it, and all

22     went to Izbica and gathered there because we thought we would feel safer

23     there.

24        Q.   Again, when you say they were burning your houses, who are you

25     referring to by "they"?

Page 605

 1        A.   Whoever, other than the Serbian police and army.

 2        Q.   Why did you decide to go to Izbica?

 3        A.   Because we felt safer, because in Izbica at that time there were

 4     no Serbs, and it was a village inhabited by Albanians.  The mountain was

 5     close by.

 6        Q.   When you decided to leave on the 26th, was it just you and your

 7     family who left, or did other people in your village also leave Lecina?

 8        A.   I was with my family, but my sons and their wives left earlier.

 9     Myself and my wife left in the afternoon, at 5.00, but the neighbours

10     also left.  The entire village left.

11        Q.   And did the entire village head in the same direction as you and

12     your wife, that is, to Izbica?

13        A.   Yes, they went to Izbica, all of them.  Most had left earlier.

14        Q.   Now, you tell us that you went to Izbica on the 26th.  When you

15     got there, where were you housed?

16        A.   On a meadow.

17        Q.   Was there anyone else on that meadow with you, other than you and

18     your family?

19        A.   Yes, they were people from Leqina, Klina e Begut, Blazin,

20     Kernica.  I don't know how many people were there from how many villages.

21        Q.   Do you recall approximately how big was this meadow where you

22     were staying?  Just roughly.

23        A.   It was quite big.

24        Q.   Do you know roughly how big it was?

25        A.   About 2 hectares, I think.

Page 606

 1        Q.   And you said there were people from other villages there.  Were

 2     they all staying in this same 2 hectares, this meadow, with you?

 3        A.   Yes.  All of us stayed there, but the people who had their houses

 4     there stayed in their own homes.  The 28th, they also came to the meadow.

 5        Q.   Who also came to the meadow on the 28th?

 6        A.   The Serb police and army.

 7        Q.   And between the 26th and the 28th of March, did you remain on

 8     the -- in this meadow?

 9        A.   On the 26th in the evening, I went there.  On the 27th we

10     remained there all day.  On the 28th the Serb police and army came, on

11     the 28th of March.

12        Q.   And what were the conditions like on this meadow during the two

13     days that you remained there?

14        A.   On the 27th during the day, it was good, but in the evening it

15     started to rain.  It rained all night.

16        Q.   And were you just outdoors or were you under some sort of shelter

17     or protection on the meadow?

18        A.   We were outdoors.  We stayed in the rain.  There was no where I

19     could go to.

20        Q.   Now, you say that on the 28th of March the Serb police and army

21     came.  Do you recall from which direction they came?

22        A.   They came from Leqina.

23        Q.   And approximately how many Serb police and army were in this

24     group that came from Lecina?

25        A.   I don't know.  There were many, but I cannot give you an accurate

Page 607

 1     number.

 2        Q.   Was it more than ten, less than ten?  Was it a large group, a

 3     small group?

 4        A.   2, 300 maybe.

 5        Q.   Did this group of Serb police and army approach the group where

 6     you were in the meadow?

 7        A.   Yes.  They came to where we were sitting, males, females,

 8     children.  And they started to separate the males from the others, those,

 9     the young ones; and the others, they asked us to form a line on the

10     meadow.  And then they asked us to give them money.  They cursed us and

11     they threw down our caps.  And then they asked us, You can get back your

12     caps.  Whoever had money on him or on her gave them money.  I didn't have

13     any on me, so I didn't give them any.  They struck me on my left eye.

14     Then they started to -- today it's Bajram day, and according to custom

15     you had to slaughter a sheep.  And then they said, We will slaughter you

16     today.

17        Q.   May I stop you there, sir.  You said that you were sitting,

18     males, females, and children.  Were there any men of military age among

19     the villagers that were in the meadow with you?

20        A.   Not of military age.  I would say maybe two or three.

21     Hajriz Draga was about 40.  One from Kline e Ulet was also of about the

22     same age.  I don't know the exact age.  But the others were all younger,

23     about 12 or 13 years and less.

24        Q.   And where were the younger men, the men of military age?  Where

25     were they?

Page 608

 1        A.   The young men were in the woods, on the mountains.

 2        Q.   Why were they in the woods?

 3        A.   Not to be killed by the Serbian police and army.

 4        Q.   And why did you decide to remain in the meadow and not go to the

 5     woods with the younger men?

 6        A.   Because I thought they would not kill us.  Had I known that this

 7     was their intention, I would have joined them in the woods, too.

 8        Q.   You said that they approached you, and they asked you to give

 9     them money.  Did any other persons -- because you said --

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   You said you didn't have any money yourself, but did any other

12     persons in your group hand over money to the Serb police and soldiers?

13        A.   Yes, there were.  They were a little bit further from me.  Some

14     who gave money were killed.  Sadik Hoti, who gave 500 DM, was killed.

15        Q.   Now, you said that they cursed you and threw down your caps.

16     What exactly did they say to you?

17        A.   They were swearing at us.  They were cursing Rugova, Thaci.  I

18     couldn't understand very well because they were cursing in Serbian.  And

19     in the end they started to count the group from the right-hand side, and

20     they directed one part of the group to the west and the other to the

21     east.  So the group that was directed to the west started to go upwards,

22     and we who were in the group directed to the east were directed towards

23     some woods.

24             And then they said to us, Turn in this direction, and as soon as

25     they turned, they opened gun-fire.  Hajriz Draga was immediately caught

Page 609

 1     by a bullet.  He fell over me.  I remained there for some 20 or 30

 2     minutes.  And Hajzer had reached the woods, and I crawled, too, towards

 3     the woods.  And once in the woods I turned my head back and saw everybody

 4     lying down on the fields.  Sadik Tahiri, who was alive after the shooting

 5     but who died later after two hours, told me that he gave them 500

 6     Deutschemarks for his life, but they killed him anyway.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to stop you there, if we can go back briefly.

 8     You said they separated the men from the women and children.  What

 9     happened to the women and children?  Where were they sent?

10        A.   The women were directed towards Vojnika and Turicevce.  They were

11     separated from us.  After the women left, they executed us.

12        Q.   Now, you said that the men were divided into two groups.  One was

13     sent east, and the other one was sent to the west.  How many men --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   How many men were in your group?

16        A.   I didn't count them, but there were quite many.  As I said,

17     nobody dared to look back or look on the sides.

18        Q.   When you say "quite many," does this mean more than ten, less

19     than ten, 15?  About how many were in your group?

20        A.   No, no, not less than 60 or 70.  More, I would say.

21        Q.   Now, you told us that your group was directed to the east,

22     towards some woods.  Who directed you to go to the east, towards the

23     woods?

24        A.   The person who divided the group, the larger group, into two

25     groups, he told the others to take one group to this direction and the

Page 610

 1     other to the other direction.  So these persons, after they carried out

 2     the execution, they went back.

 3        Q.   Can you describe this person who instructed others to divide the

 4     group?  What did he look like, this person, if you recall?

 5        A.   Ten years have passed.  I'm old so my memory doesn't serve me

 6     right.  But he was kind of a chubby person, dark, of average build.

 7        Q.   Was he wearing any kind of uniform?

 8        A.   Yes.  They were all wearing uniforms.

 9        Q.   Do you recall the colour of the uniform he was wearing?

10        A.   I've forgotten the colours.  Both police and military colours.

11        Q.   Very well.  Now, when you were taken towards the woods, was

12     anyone escorting your group?

13        A.   They escorted us.  Nobody else.  That was exactly why they were

14     taking us into that direction, to execute us, not for fun.

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Dragaj, when you say they escorted you, who are you

16     referring to by "they"?

17        A.   The police, the army.  The Serbian police and army.  Nobody else.

18        Q.   What happened when you arrived to the woods where you were being

19     escorted?

20        A.   The execution happened before we reached the woods.  When we were

21     next to the woods, they started to execute us.  Those who were in the

22     back, in the rear part, they were already executed while in the meadow.

23        Q.   Other than yourself, did anyone else survive this execution?

24        A.   Hajriz Draga, Sheremet Krasniqi, and Rrustem Hoti.

25        Q.   Is this person Hajriz Draga different from the person who you

Page 611

 1     told us earlier who fell on top of you?

 2        A.   Hajriz is the person who fell on my body, while this is Hajriz,

 3     another person, Hajzer, correction.

 4        Q.   And what happened to this person who fell on your body, Hajriz?

 5     Did he survive as well?

 6        A.   For awhile.  He died later because nobody could give him any

 7     help.  He asked me for some water, but there was no where I could get

 8     water.  I wasn't in good condition myself.

 9        Q.   Were you injured in the shooting?

10        A.   No, I wasn't.

11        Q.   Did you know any of the persons who were killed in this

12     execution?

13        A.   Most of them I did.  There were also people whom I didn't know.

14     There were people from Puzine, Kline e Ulet, from Gllareva, from

15     everywhere, and from some villages that I have never even heard of.

16        Q.   Of those whom you did know, where were they from?

17        A.   From Leqina, some from Puzine, some from Kline, some from

18     Gllareva, some from Kernica.

19        Q.   Do you recall the names of any of those persons who were killed

20     in your group?  Only those you recall I'm asking about.

21        A.   I remember some of them.  Some I've forgotten.  Less than the

22     half I remember.

23        Q.   Could you tell us the names of those that you still remember?

24        A.   Those that I have not forgotten, I can.  Halim Shala, Ren Shala,

25     Idriz Shala, Sali Shala, Kujtim Shala, Rexh Qelaj, Metush Qelaj, Smajl

Page 612

 1     Qelaj, Murat Draga, Ali Draga, Ismet Draga, Hajriz Draga, Rrustem Draga,

 2     Cen Draga, Iljaz Dervisi, Sali Dervisi, Iljaz Bajra, Bajram Bajra, Kajtaz

 3     Islami, and others that I've forgotten.

 4             There were also women killed, but they were killed on route, not

 5     at the site of the massacre.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I don't know if this is a good time

 7     for the break.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Very good.  We'll adjourn now and resume again at

10     1.00.  We'll have a break now for half an hour to enable you to have a

11     rest, and we'll continue at 1.00.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you say, sir.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Dragaj, before the break you gave us the list of names of the

18     persons you remembered were killed in that incident that you've been

19     describing.  Were any of the persons who were killed in your group

20     dressed in any kind of military attire or uniform?

21        A.   No.  Civilian clothes.

22        Q.   At the time when this massacre occurred you were approximately 60

23     years old; correct?

24        A.   Yes, correct.  Around 60 years old.

25        Q.   Were there any other men in your group of your same age?

Page 613

 1        A.   Yes, there were, and there were also older than me.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, you told us that another one of the men in your group

 3     fell on top of you and that's how you survived.  What did you do after

 4     the shooting stopped?

 5        A.   I remained there for some 20 minutes, lying on the ground.

 6     Hajriz was on top of me.  After some 20 minutes I looked up.  Musli Hajra

 7     was in the woods.  He was alive.  He called me, he said, Come to the

 8     woods because they are burning houses and everything they find down

 9     there.  So I crawled to the woods, and when I looked back in the

10     direction of the meadow, I saw those who had been killed lying on the

11     ground.

12        Q.   For how long did you remain in the woods?

13        A.   On the 28th of March, that's the date of the execution, and we

14     remained in the mountains, in the woods, till 31st of March, when these

15     people who had been killed were buried.

16        Q.   You had told us that the group that had arrived in Izbica was

17     approximately of 200, 300 policemen and soldiers.  For how long did they

18     remain in Izbica?

19        A.   They remained there from 28th till the 30th.  They left on the

20     30th, in the evening and went to Vojnika, Broja.  That's where they had

21     their place.

22        Q.   Now, you just told us that you returned on the 31st of March, and

23     that's to Izbica, and that's when the people who were killed were buried.

24     Did you participate in the burial of those who were killed?

25        A.   Yes.  Until the 31st of March I was there in the woods around

Page 614

 1     Izbica the whole time.  And on the 31st of March, whoever could take part

 2     in the burial, took part; myself, my sons.

 3        Q.   Now, you told us earlier that the group of men had been split

 4     into two groups, and you have already explained what happened to your

 5     group.  Do you know what happened to the other group that was taken

 6     towards the west of the village?

 7        A.   All from the other group were killed.  Two or three, I think,

 8     only survived.

 9        Q.   And how do you know that those persons in the other group were

10     killed?

11        A.   When we carried the bodies we found them all killed on the ground

12     on the 31st of March.

13        Q.   And was there anything particular that you remember about the

14     bodies that you found of that group that was taken to the west of the

15     village?  Was there anything that struck your mind about this -- the men

16     that you found that had been killed there in the west of the village?

17        A.   They were killed, all of them.  It was difficult even to carry

18     these bodies because of the state they were in.

19        Q.   And what state was that, that these bodies were in?

20        A.   Some could not recognise their own family members, their fathers

21     or sons.  It was only through their clothes that we could identify them.

22        Q.   Why couldn't they be recognised?  What had happened to them?

23        A.   Most of them were shot in their heads.  Secondly, they remained

24     without being buried for a long time, and they were decomposed.  That's

25     why it was difficult for people to recognise their own family members.

Page 615

 1        Q.   Were any of the men in that second group dressed in any sort of

 2     military attire or uniform?

 3        A.   There were no soldiers or people dressed in uniforms on that day

 4     or the previous days.  These were all civilians.

 5        Q.   You had told us that in your group there were other men of your

 6     age and even older than you.  Was that also the case of the men who were

 7     taken in the other direction, those who were taken west and killed there?

 8        A.   Yes.  There were people of my age and older than me, too.  There

 9     was a disabled person in the second group called Hetem.  He didn't have

10     one of his legs.

11        Q.   Do you know the full name of this disabled person who was in the

12     second group?  Do you know the last name?

13        A.   Hetem Osmanaj.

14        Q.   Now you mentioned earlier that there had been also women killed.

15     In which --

16        A.   They were killed on route as they were travelling, not at the

17     place where the men were killed.  Zada Dragaj, who was 105 years old, was

18     killed.  Another woman who was 90 years old was killed.  Also Zoje Osmana

19     was burned.  Shala Sali, Saban Musliu, they were all burned with their

20     things in the tractors.

21        Q.   And where were they burned?  Was this also in the village or

22     outside the village?

23        A.   They were burned in their tractors on the meadow, not in their

24     houses.

25        Q.   In total, approximately how many people were killed that day, on

Page 616

 1     28th March, in Izbica?

 2        A.   Approximately, and from the number of bodies we buried, 147.  We

 3     buried that day 147 bodies.

 4        Q.   Where were these bodies buried?

 5        A.   They were buried in Izbica.  A man gave one of his meadows.  They

 6     were not buried in the cemetery but in the meadow.

 7        Q.   When did this burial take place?

 8        A.   On the 31st of March.  It was a Wednesday.

 9        Q.   Were there any members of the KLA present during the burial of

10     the victims of this massacre?

11        A.   Two or three, I would say, because most of them had their fathers

12     amongst people who were killed.

13        Q.   And do you know how it is that members of the KLA came to take

14     part in the burial of these victims?

15        A.   In my opinion they came here because they had to bury their own

16     family members - father or uncle or brother.  It was very dangerous to

17     bury these victims.  There was a lot of movement in Broja and Vojnika,

18     and they were not buried properly as human beings are.  They were buried

19     like animals.

20        Q.   Were there any markings made in the place where the victims were

21     buried, any markings that allowed to identify who was buried there?

22        A.   A piece of wood was placed on each and every victim -- location

23     where the victim was buried and numbers were placed on this wood, 1, 2,

24     3.

25        Q.   Did these pieces of wood also have the name of each one of the

Page 617

 1     victims that was buried there?

 2        A.   Yes, names were written.

 3        Q.   And how were the different victims identified?  How did you know

 4     which name to put in each tomb for the victims?

 5        A.   For example, this was done so that every person was identified.

 6     So every grave was given a name, a name of a person that was buried in

 7     it.

 8        Q.   And who helped identify the victims?

 9        A.   Family members of those who had been killed took note of this;

10     for example, this person is buried in grave number 1 and this, in grave

11     number 2.  And the same pattern was followed until all the bodies were

12     buried.

13        Q.   Was anyone in particular in charge of compiling the list of names

14     of the victims of the massacre?

15        A.   Sadik Xhemajli looked like the person in charge.

16        Q.   Who was this person, Sadik Xhemajli?

17        A.   Sadik Xhemajli was from Izbica, and he was a KLA member.  I think

18     he has appeared before this Court.

19        Q.   Now, sir, after the burial took place, what did you do?  Did you

20     remain at Izbica?

21        A.   After the burial and when the forces withdrew, the Serbian

22     forces, I stayed in the mountains or woods of Izbica.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Until the forces

24     withdrew.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:

Page 618

 1        Q.   Just a clarification from your answer.  For how long did you

 2     remain in the mountains or woods of Izbica after the burial took place?

 3        A.   I don't know the date when the forces withdrew, but as soon as

 4     they withdrew from Vojnika and Broja area, the following day I went to

 5     Leqina.

 6        Q.   When you say "the forces withdrew," which forces are you

 7     referring to that withdrew from this area?

 8        A.   I refer to the Serbian forces, the Serbian police and army.

 9     There were no other forces there.

10        Q.   Now, sir, you've told us where the bodies of the victims were

11     buried.  Are those bodies still at this location in Izbica, in this field

12     where they were buried?

13        A.   No.  They were exhumed from the 28th of May and onwards.  For

14     four or five days they were being removed from the graves.  They didn't

15     leave a single body there.

16        Q.   Who exhumed the bodies of the victims from the grave?

17        A.   The Serbian police and army.

18        Q.   How do you know that the bodies were exhumed?  Was this something

19     you observed yourself?

20        A.   This I know because on the 31st of March I took part in the

21     burial of these victims.  On the 28th of May they began the removal of

22     these bodies from the graves, and they didn't leave a single body there.

23        Q.   And I'll repeat my question:  Was this something you observed

24     yourself, these exhumations of the bodies of the victims?

25        A.   I was in the woods of Izbica every day.  During the day they

Page 619

 1     would shell and then they would enter with their infantry into the

 2     villages.  So the day when they removed the bodies, they started with the

 3     shelling.  There was some hills there, and you could see it clearly from

 4     those hills that they were working on these graves.

 5        Q.   Who did you see was working on these graves, from where you were

 6     located?

 7        A.   I could see that it was the Serbian police and army.  Nobody

 8     else.

 9        Q.   Now, do you know where these bodies were taken, the bodies of the

10     victims that were exhumed from Izbica?

11        A.   No, I don't, but I know that some victims from the Izbica

12     massacre were found in Batajnica.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the two other

14     locations.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:

16        Q.   The interpreter didn't understand your answer.  Could you repeat

17     the locations where the bodies of these victims were found?

18        A.   The bodies of those killed, I don't know where they were taken on

19     that particular moment.  But later on these bodies, some were found in

20     Mitrovic, Suhadoll, somewhere near Vushtrri and at Batajnica.

21        Q.   How do you know that these bodies were found at these locations?

22     How did you obtain this information?

23        A.   The body of the brother of my daughter-in-law was found in

24     Batajnica.  He was buried in the fifth grave in Izbica.  So every body

25     that was found, later on people were told where it was found.

Page 620

 1        Q.   Could you give us the name of the brother of your daughter-in-law

 2     that was found in Batajnica.

 3        A.   Fatmir Osmani.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, after the Serbian forces withdrew from Kosovo, did you

 5     return to your village of Lecina?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And in what condition did you find your house in the village?

 8        A.   It was leveled with the ground.  It was burned and completely

 9     destroyed.

10        Q.   What about the other houses in the village?  In what condition

11     were they?

12        A.   The whole village was burnt and destroyed.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for this

15     witness at this stage.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Djurdjic, do you have questions?

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Dragaj.  My name is

21     Veljko Djurdjic, and I'm on the Defence team of Vlastimir Djordjevic;

22     together with me is Ms. Marie O'Leary.  And I have some questions for you

23     regarding your evidence today.

24             Mr. Mustafa, could you please spell your name for us.

25        A.   Yes, I think I can.  M-u-s-t-a-f-a.

Page 621

 1        Q.   Thank you.  That's your first name.  And your last name, please.

 2        A.   D-r-a-g-a-j.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So your last name is Dragaj, not Draga; am I right?

 4        A.   Yes, with a "J" at the end.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             Mr. Dragaj, do you remember that you gave a statement on the 11th

 7     and the 13th of November, 1999, to an investigator of the OTP, of this

 8     Tribunal?

 9        A.   I have given statements, yes.

10        Q.   Is it true that the statement was read out to you in Albanian?

11        A.   Yes.  They read it to me in Albanian.

12        Q.   Is it true that you signed every page of the statement and the

13     certification that is part of the statement on the 13th of November,

14     1999?

15        A.   Yes, I remember I signed it.

16        Q.   Is it true that on the 8th of March, 2002, you signed a

17     declaration stating that the contents of your statement is true and

18     accurate, to the best of your knowledge and belief, that this was the

19     basis of your statement; and that an officer of the Registry of the

20     International Tribunal certified that statement?

21        A.   I don't remember.  I don't know what to say.

22        Q.   Fair enough.  Do you remember that you were warned that false

23     testimony might incur action against you, that there might be proceedings

24     against you, and that then you signed the declaration?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 622

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             Mr. Dragaj, in the statement that I have in front of me - the

 3     date is the 13th of November, 1999 - it is stated that you served -- that

 4     you did your national service -- national service in the JNA in Karlovac,

 5     Modrica, and Zenica; is that correct?

 6        A.   It's correct.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dragaj, could you please tell me, if you recall, what year

 8     did you do your national service and what was the last town where you

 9     served?

10        A.   Yes, I remember.  In 1958, February, I went to do the military

11     service.  In 1960, the 2nd of June, I finished it.

12        Q.   Do you remember what colour uniform you wore during your national

13     service?

14        A.   I don't remember that.  It was like green, grass green, but many

15     years have passed ever since so I have forgotten.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Your recollection is excellent.  Could you please

17     tell us, the uniforms that you saw during the time that you told us about

18     today, what colour were those uniforms?

19        A.   I have forgotten all the colours.  I didn't even look at the

20     colours.  First, I was not interested; second, I was afraid.  I didn't

21     dare look up at them.

22        Q.   Can I then conclude that you did not dare look at the forces that

23     entered the village, as you've just told us, that you were much too

24     afraid to do that?

25        A.   My village?  I don't understand "your village."  You mean my

Page 623

 1     village or Izbica?

 2        Q.   Yes, yes.  I meant Izbica.

 3        A.   In Izbica I didn't dare to look at them, I told you, because when

 4     you see that people are shooting at you, want to execute you, I don't

 5     think anyone would dare look at the executors.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And is it the case that you did not dare to look at

 7     them even before that because you were too afraid?

 8        A.   Since 1997 I didn't dare look at them.  I did my best to avoid

 9     them.

10        Q.   Thank you.  But could you please tell us why, from 1997, you

11     didn't look at them?  Did anything happen; and if yes, what happened?

12        A.   Yes.  They came in 1997 and took me from my yard to the police

13     station, and they beat me up there.  They asked me for weapons, but I

14     didn't possess any weapons.  When my household people didn't know that

15     they took me away.

16        Q.   I didn't understand you.  Did they take you away because you had

17     the weapons or because you didn't have the weapons?

18        A.   They took me to ask me for a weapon, thinking that I possessed a

19     weapon.  And they took me to the police station and beat me up.

20        Q.   Well, did you have weapons, or did you not have weapons?  Could

21     you please tell us.

22        A.   If I had a weapon, I would have handed it over to them right away

23     when they came to my yard.  Why should I go to the police station with

24     them?

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 624

 1             Is it true what it says here in your statement, that you had ten

 2     children; eight sons and two daughters?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   Is it true that four of your sons at the relevant time in 1999,

 5     in other words, from March until the Serb forces pulled out, as you told

 6     us, that four of your sons lived in Germany?

 7        A.   Yes, it's true.

 8        Q.   Since when have they been living in Germany?

 9        A.   One went there when he was 15 years old or so -- 15 or so years

10     ago.  The others went before the war.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that your sons Sheqir, Bedri, Fahria and

12     Elmi remained with you?

13        A.   They lived for awhile, but Bedri and Elmi went to Montenegro;

14     Sheqir and Fahria to Albania.  The Serb forces came.

15        Q.   Mr. Dragaj, I was asking you about the time before the

16     air-strikes began.  Did they live together with you in the same household

17     at that time, or did they have their own homes?

18        A.   They lived in the same household.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Were they married?

20        A.   Bedri and Sheqir, yes.  The other two married after the war, Elmi

21     and Fahria.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether you lived in several

23     houses or in a single house?

24        A.   I lived in one house.

25        Q.   And the sons who were married and the unmarried sons and the

Page 625

 1     daughter?

 2        A.   Yes, they all lived with me.  The other daughter is in Germany

 3     for 12, 13 years now.

 4        Q.   Well, thank you.  Could you tell me, that means that there

 5     existed only one house where all of you lived?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  There was one house, and still there is one house.

 7        Q.   Could you tell us whether there was a wall around this house?

 8        A.   Yes.  There was a wall built with blocks of concrete.

 9        Q.   Could you tell us how high this wall was?

10        A.   I didn't measure it, but the house is three storeys high.

11        Q.   If somebody were to pass by your house, could they see what was

12     happening in your house and in your yard because of the wall?

13        A.   But you can look at the yard because there are windows.  Some

14     windows -- some rooms have windows; some do not have.

15        Q.   Mr. Dragaj, I was asking you about people outside of the wall.

16     Could they see what was happening in your house and in your yard from the

17     outside, given that there was a wall?

18        A.   I don't understand what you are asking me.

19        Q.   Could somebody easily go over the wall and into your yard?

20        A.   There is no wall and no fence around my yard.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have five minutes

22     left.  I would like us to stop the cross-examination now because I have

23     an important housekeeping matter to raise of great importance for the

24     Defence.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will then adjourn for the day.

Page 626

 1             Mr. Dragaj, we've got to finish hearing evidence today at this

 2     point, and we continue again tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the morning.

 3     The court officer will show you out, and we look forward to hearing the

 4     rest of your evidence tomorrow morning, if you could come then.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, as you wish.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry I have to

10     interrupt the witness before the end of our session today, but today at

11     two minutes past 12.00, the Defence was notified about a change in the

12     order of the witnesses to be called.  And the change is of such a nature

13     that the witness who was supposed to be examined today or tomorrow will

14     now be called some other week, and the witness who was supposed to be

15     heard in the week after the 9th of February is supposed to be called

16     tomorrow.

17             I have to give you an overview of the time-line of this problem.

18     In accordance with the decision of the Trial Chamber, the Defence is to

19     receive the witness list for any given week two weeks before they're to

20     be called.  We received a list on the 13th of January from the

21     Prosecution.  The first on the list is Veton Surroi, then K83, and then

22     Mr. Gjogaj, followed by Mr. Dragaj.  Then on the 19th of January we

23     received the following list with Ms. Shyhrete Berisha, Nike Peraj,

24     Loshi Liri, and Lizane, that's the last witness.

25             On the 26th of January, we were told that in the week from the

Page 627

 1     9th of February, we will hear Avdyli Mehmet, Krasniqi Mehmet,

 2     Ramadani Lufti, and John Paul Sweeney.  On the 2nd of February, we

 3     received notification that Avdyli Mehmet, Krasniqi, Ramadani Lufti, and

 4     Paul Sweeney will be heard in the week after the 16th of February.

 5             You know that the Defence has agreed to the change and agreed to

 6     hear Mrs. Berisha after Veton Surroi.  It caused us great problems.

 7     Because of our manpower and organisational problems, we cannot deal with

 8     such reshuffling of witnesses.  We cannot do our job in a way that will

 9     ensure an efficient trial and a proper defence for Mr. Djordjevic.

10             So the witness who is notified for the week after the 16th, now

11     all of a sudden is to be called tomorrow after witness Mustafa Dragaj.

12     We are unable to deal with that, and I think, and I'm calling on the

13     Chamber to reject this and to see that we are simply unable to prepare

14     given this kind of work.  Loshi Liri was supposed to testify tomorrow,

15     and he will now testify two weeks later, and the witness who was supposed

16     to testify in two weeks will be called tomorrow.

17             And another thing, well, regardless of whether we might, in the

18     end, be able to start with this witness, the witness Sweeney, well, it's

19     impossible to prepare for him in such a short time, and we have five

20     working days next week, and we have been preparing for the witnesses that

21     were scheduled for next week.

22             I think that I have presented our problem to you.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

24             MR. STAMP:  May I, please, Your Honours.

25             First, may I indicate that our request to alter the order arises

Page 628

 1     from logistical difficulties in getting visas for some of the witnesses,

 2     or one witness in particular, a major witness, in particular, whose visa

 3     expired.  And we have to expend some time in getting him another visa to

 4     attend.

 5             Apart from that I should add that the next witness, Liri Loshi,

 6     his attendance in this order, as it is, was conveyed to the Defence many

 7     days ago.  I can't remember when; I'm trying to find that information.

 8     So the Defence has been aware for a long time that Liri Loshi -- that

 9     we're seeking to bring Liri Loshi forward.

10             And in respect to this particular order of witnesses, I did speak

11     with my friend about that yesterday, altering the order, and he expressed

12     no objections.  I showed him the order that we have there, because of the

13     difficulties we're having, we would be bringing the witnesses forward.

14     In order for the Court to have business to do next week, we would have to

15     bring the witnesses who come or have visas and who could come, we would

16     have to bring them forward and put off the remainder.  And I did not

17     confirm these arrangements until after I spoke to the Defence about it.

18             But it is impossible to find the details as to -- yes, we have

19     found that for Liri Loshi, this was indicated to the Defence on the 19th

20     of January, that he would testify this week.  So the Defence has been --

21     yes, we have an indication here, we have the filing here of the 19th of

22     January, that Liri Loshi would be available for this week.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  But wasn't that an earlier notification which has

24     been overtaken by more than one subsequent notification that didn't

25     propose the witness Loshi for this coming week?

Page 629

 1             MR. STAMP:  The subsequent notifications are -- were in respect

 2     to witnesses that were expected to come after Loshi, so they would not

 3     directly have affected what we stated about Loshi for this week.  But I

 4     think the Defence's complaint is that the order has changed.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  The Defence's complaint boils down to the fact

 6     that they need time to prepare, and they have prepared for certain

 7     witnesses.  It's now proposed not to call those witnesses but instead to

 8     call others who weren't listed to be heard at this time.

 9             MR. STAMP:  And if I may --

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, is that correct or not?

11             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, it is correct, and I'm explaining to you the

12     reasons.  Yes.  It's a bit difficult to shuffle through all of the

13     documents.  And the real change is to bring forward Sweeney, Ramadani and

14     Krasniqi earlier before K90, Malaj and Peraj, as had been earlier

15     indicated.  K90, Malaj, and Peraj are witnesses who deal with one

16     particular crime scene.  One of them would not be able to attend,

17     although he was scheduled, because of visa difficulties; another of them

18     had personal difficulties and will not be able to attend this week

19     either.  So we were left in a situation where we have no one for this

20     week.

21             As I indicated, Loshi had been indicated to the Defence from the

22     19th, in the order or the approximate order in which he was being -- in

23     which we propose to take him.  So the real issue for the Defence is

24     bringing forward Sweeney, Ramadani, and Krasniqi.  If are not in a

25     position to bring him forward, we will not have the witnesses as we

Page 630

 1     intended for the remainder of next week, after we take Loshi.

 2             Now, I understand the difficulties the Defence can have if

 3     there's a change -- change in the order.  However, there are logistical

 4     difficulties that we have to -- we have to deal with as best as we can.

 5     And before I even forwarded what I did to the Defence, as I indicated, I

 6     showed it to them yesterday, and so I'm surprised now that the complaint

 7     is being made after we formally sent it to them today.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, your proposition is that, if I can put

 9     them in order, your notification of the 13th of January, listed in the

10     order in which they've been heard, four witnesses, but an additional

11     witness was introduced, which is Mrs. Berisha.  She came ahead of the

12     last two witnesses.  But even so, notification of her being called was

13     given on the 19th of January.

14             We then have on the 26th of January notification that you were to

15     call during the week commencing the 9th of February Krasniqi, Ramadani,

16     and Sweeney, three of the witnesses whom you have just indicated will be

17     called during this coming week.  But in addition, you have introduced in

18     this latest notification the name of Loshi who was to have been called

19     during the week commencing the 2nd of February but hasn't been reached.

20     So that witness will now be called next week instead of this week.

21             MR. STAMP:  Well, we -- if we finish with this witness tomorrow,

22     we expect to call Loshi next, which is precisely what I am saying.  There

23     is no real change in order --

24             JUDGE PARKER:  The point I'm making is that he was to be called

25     this week on your notification of the 19th of January.

Page 631

 1             MR. STAMP:  Indeed.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  Now, it was your notification of the 26th of

 3     January that first mentioned Krasniqi, Ramadani and Sweeney, who are,

 4     because they've not been reached, now to be heard, you hope, during this

 5     coming week commencing the 9th of February.  That leaves us, then, with

 6     the witnesses K90, who had been in your notification of the 19th of

 7     January for this week but who has not been reached.  It also includes the

 8     witness Malaj.  And Malaj was in the notification of the 19th of January

 9     for this last week, or this week, and the witness Peraj, who was also in

10     your notification of the 19th of January.

11             Well, the witness names seem to have been the subject of

12     notification on either the 19th of January or the 26th of January, but

13     what has happened is a change in the order.

14             MR. STAMP:  Indeed.  There is no legitimate complaint in respect

15     to timely notification as to when they will testify.  What has happened

16     is that because of the time some of the witnesses have taken, witnesses

17     who have particular problems have had to -- we have had to make changes

18     in respect to them, the order.  That is all, the order has been changed

19     around a little bit.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  You said a witness didn't have a visa or it had

21     expired.

22             MR. STAMP:  It expired.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that witness on the list for next week or not?

24             MR. STAMP:  I think that witness was on the list for this week.

25     And that witness, we expected, would have occupied a couple of days this

Page 632

 1     week.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that K90?

 3             MR. STAMP:  No, Your Honour, I'd prefer not to indicate his name

 4     with respect to his visa issues.  But that is not the person.  He had a

 5     visa for this week, but since he wasn't reached, the visa is about to

 6     expire.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  I know the problem prevented by the

 8     governmental administration from the country from which they come.  The

 9     visas are issued only for a week, and if somehow they are not reached,

10     there is no visa, and it often takes, in my experience, two or three

11     weeks to get another visa.  I'm aware of that problem.  It's a familiar

12     one.

13             You said earlier you felt there was no legitimate complaint.  I

14     think you must accept, Mr. Stamp, that there is legitimacy in a complaint

15     that if counsel have prepared for certain witnesses, for whatever the

16     reason, if that witness order is changed --

17             MR. STAMP:  Yes.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  [Previous translation continued] ... it can be

19     extremely disruptive, if not practical, for Defence counsel to be

20     prepared for cross-examination.  As a typical example, and I don't know

21     whether it has arisen here, and I don't look for an answer.  It may be

22     that it was arranged that one counsel would deal with witnesses X, Y, and

23     Z, and you changed the order so that that counsel is not here on the days

24     you're calling X, Y, and Z, that sort of thing.

25             The Chamber is well aware that you can have logistical problems,

Page 633

 1     but you need also to be aware that your logistical problems will create

 2     logistical problems for the Defence and in turn can create logistical

 3     problems for the Chamber.  So that matters of that nature have to be

 4     given close attention, and the moment it is apparent that there will need

 5     to be some change, there needs to be an immediate notification in the

 6     hope that the Defence will be able to adjust their arrangements to

 7     accommodate your difficulty.

 8             Now, is there anything else you want to say?

 9             MR. STAMP:  I fully accept what Your Honour has said.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

11             Well, I'll turn back now, if I may, to Mr. Djurdjic.

12             None of the witnesses to be called next week on this latest

13     notification appear to be new witnesses that have just been introduced,

14     Mr. Djurdjic.  They've each been the subject of notifications for either

15     the 19th of January or the 26th of January, and what has really happened

16     is the changing of order.  Is that a correct understanding that I have so

17     far?

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to say

19     something about one of the things that the Prosecutor said.  It is true

20     that we discussed the order yesterday, but the order was Gjogaj Ali,

21     Mustafa Dragaj, Liri Loshi.  I wanted to know whether the next one up was

22     Nike Peraj and when he would be appearing for the sake of my preparation.

23     But there was nothing said at all about John Sweeney or any other

24     witnesses, nor was there any reference to a change in the witness order.

25             What is of concern to me is, firstly, you know that we are facing

Page 634

 1     a lot of difficulty concerning the translations of our documents.  Seven

 2     days before we started our cross-examination, we are due to hand over our

 3     documents for inspection in order to have them ready for our cross.

 4     Therefore, it is true that all these witnesses and the order were brought

 5     to our attention weeks ahead, but now we had -- John Sweeney was supposed

 6     to be appearing in the week after the 9th, and we are facing the

 7     possibility that he might be appearing at witness number 1 next Monday,

 8     and then again K22 has just been announced.

 9             My colleague Marie O'Leary has just told me about the change

10     related to K25 which was not announced.  We cannot have a full five-day

11     working week next week.  The Defence simply can't cope with this kind of

12     change in the witness order and all these changes from week to week.  We

13     can't prepare properly, nor, indeed, can we obtain the required

14     translations.

15             As for Liri, alright, we expected him this week, but John Sweeney

16     was not scheduled at all.  And the order was supposed to be exactly the

17     other way around.  So number 4, number 5, now becomes number 1, number 3,

18     number 2, and number 1, number 4.  This is creating a whole lot of

19     problems for us because we work according to the notice we had served on

20     us by the OTP, and we take that to be the schedule.

21             I don't think we can go on like this.  As for John Sweeney, the

22     Defence cannot possibly prepare for our cross-examination to commence

23     next Monday.  We have five working days scheduled for next week.  That's

24     another thing that we need to bear in mind.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  I only have four.  Oh, there's the possibility of

Page 635

 1     the afternoon of Wednesday, the 11th.  Yes.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I just rise to suggest, if I may, that

 3     we could, with the leave of the Court, try to put on Sweeney, not on

 4     Monday but on Tuesday.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, thank you, Mr. Stamp, but I think we're

 6     going to have to pull some of these problems together and try and avoid

 7     them.  Part of the problem is not one of yours but one of the Defence, in

 8     that they are trying to get translations made so that they can use them

 9     in cross-examination, if I understand Mr. Djurdjic correctly.  And for

10     that reason priority is being given to the witnesses in the order that

11     they've been shown on your list.  And then when you change the order,

12     Mr. Djurdjic and his lead counsel find themselves without the documents

13     that they need for cross-examination because they, the translations, are

14     being prepared in the earlier order, not the latest order that you

15     propose.

16             Now, it's not clear to me why you have a significant problem over

17     the next intended witness, Loshi, Mr. Djurdjic.  Is there a particular

18     problem about preparation for that witness?

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.  We are ready for

20     Witness Loshi.  He was scheduled for next week.  No problem with that.

21     We have a problem with Sweeney and the order of all the other witnesses,

22     the order that was reshuffled, as it were.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Right.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That's our problem.  As for Loshi,

25     Liri, Mr. Stamp is right, that was supposed to be this way, and we agreed

Page 636

 1     yesterday that he would be appearing after Mustafa Dragaj.  But Sweeny

 2     came up all of a sudden, and then K25.  I don't know if that was

 3     announced to you, if got a notice of that.  Now all of a sudden K25 pops

 4     up, and I don't think that was ever scheduled.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  In the Chamber's view, this is a larger than usual

 7     teething problem, as we are moving into a new trial, but that it's a

 8     problem which we think can be overcome by some modification.

 9             What we propose is that tomorrow, when the present witness has

10     finished, the next witness called should be Loshi.  But this afternoon

11     and, if necessary, further tomorrow afternoon, we want counsel to confer

12     and a list re-ordered that is one that can be managed both by Prosecution

13     and Defence for the coming week.  If a solution can't be found, the

14     Chamber will have to determine the list, and that may be inconvenient to

15     both counsel.  But at the moment it seems, from what we have heard, that

16     it should be possible for the problems of each counsel to be reasonably

17     reconciled so that we can develop an order of witnesses for next week

18     which both can manage.  And that, once that is achieved, ought to carry

19     on for the following week, because I think it will take us two weeks to

20     work our way out of this present difficulty.

21             Now, can the Chamber ask counsel to give attention to that this

22     afternoon in a joint meeting, approached I hope with an awareness by each

23     counsel of the problems of the other so that we can come to a list which

24     will be manageable during the coming week, and then for the following

25     week, which is, of course, only a three-day sitting week.

Page 637

 1             If there are continuing problems tomorrow, the Chamber will hear

 2     them, and we may have to come up with a solution that may not be readily

 3     suited to either counsel.  So it would be very much in everybody's

 4     interests if you can accommodate each other's difficulties.

 5             We now adjourn, and we resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.10 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th day of

 8                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.