Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 681

 1                           Monday, 9 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 6             We're about to start a new witness.  Is there a procedural matter

 7     before we do?

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             Before we start with the next witness, I wanted to raise one

10     procedural matter.

11             We would like to make an oral application to add a new exhibit to

12     our exhibit list.  This exhibit is a video that was brought by the

13     witness last Thursday when he came for proofing.  Mr. Stamp had referred

14     to this issue last Friday when he made his submissions to the Court.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Has this been provided to the Defence?

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.  The video was disclosed last Friday.  We only

17     received it Thursday afternoon, and it was processed by our evidence unit

18     Friday morning.  And as soon as that was done, we provided it to the

19     Defence.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Djordjevic.

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] We did receive two CDs or DVDs,

23     I'm not sure what format it was, and one contains the footage purported

24     to be by the witness of the location where allegedly there was a mass

25     grave in Izbica, and the other recording pertains to something that is

Page 682

 1     not in the indictment at all.  It's Padalishte.

 2             As for the second recording, it is clear that the Defence

 3     contends that it cannot and should not be admitted into evidence in this

 4     case.  As for the first recording, it is controversial because it is not

 5     clear why it is only after so much time has elapsed this recording now

 6     crops up, and it must be tendered through this witness.

 7             That is why the Defence objects to the admission of both those

 8     recordings.  I've stated our reasons.  In particular, the recording that

 9     might be relevant for the indictment, since it was only provided to us

10     now, and it is quite strange in light of the witness's diligence in his

11     events in his testimony in other cases so far that he never mentioned

12     this recording.  So the question of credibility and of whether he

13     actually took the recording, this is all highly contentious, and that is

14     why the Defence objects to the tendering of this exhibit.

15             And my colleague Ms. Kravetz did not specify whether both

16     recordings should be admitted or just one of the two.  I would like

17     clarification in this regard, and then I may take the floor again.  Thank

18     you.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, if I may clarify the matter.  I'm only

21     referring to the new video that was provided to the Defence on Friday.

22     This is 65 ter 05243.

23             My colleague is correct that a second video was provided also on

24     Friday.  We indicated in the e-mail that went out when this was disclosed

25     that this is a video that was only disclosed out of an abundance of

Page 683

 1     caution.  It relates to a statement which was disclosed in 2007, December

 2     2007, to the Defence, and we do not intend to use the statement or that

 3     video.  We're only disclosing it so the Defence has all the material

 4     relevant to this witness, but it is not a video that we intend to use

 5     with this witness.

 6             Now, as to the issue of why the new video was only provided to us

 7     by the witness at this stage, the issue of the witness having filmed this

 8     video only came up during his testimony in the Milutinovic case.  At the

 9     time we were asked by Presiding Judge Bonomy whether we possessed a copy

10     of the video; we indicated we didn't.  We hadn't been provided a copy by

11     the witness.  When the witness returned back home, we asked him to send

12     us a copy of the video.  He looked for it back home.  He didn't have a

13     copy and he was unable to locate a copy.  It is only recently that the

14     witness has been able to locate a copy.  The video was in fact back in

15     Kosova at a brother's house, and the brother was able to locate the

16     original of this video.

17             From what I understand, the witness asked his brother to send him

18     the video when he arrived last week here in The Hague, and we received it

19     on Thursday and immediately provided it to the Office of the Prosecution.

20     So this is the explanation we have received for the delay in providing

21     this video to the Office of the Prosecution.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  What is the relevance of the video to the case?

23     Can you indicate that to the Chamber?

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  This video is directly relevant to the witness's

25     observations he made at Izbica when he returned there in June 1999.  He

Page 684

 1     in fact filmed this video that month when he was there, and we believe

 2     it's going to better assist the Chamber in understanding his observations

 3     at the time.  Specifically, it refers to the removal of the bodies from

 4     the graves at Izbica, and it just shows the conditions that the

 5     grave-site was at when the witness returned after the war was over in

 6     1999.  That is the relevance of the video.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  And it's advanced on the basis that it is a video

 8     actually filmed by the witness?

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.  The witness appears on the video.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  That hasn't answered my question.  If he appears

11     on it, he can't film it.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  From what I understand, he was being filmed and

13     then he filmed a part of it.  But I think the witness will be able to

14     explain which part he filmed and who filmed the part where he appears on

15     the video.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber is of the view, Ms. Kravetz, that the

20     DVD that you are speaking of should be added to the Rule 65 ter witness

21     list.  The Chamber will, however, hear the witness and, if appropriate,

22     view the video before deciding whether or not it should be received as an

23     exhibit.  We realise the list is primarily to give notice to the Defence

24     and the Chamber that the Prosecution intends to use something.  The

25     question of admissibility is a distinct issue and the Chamber wishes to

Page 685

 1     consider that in light of the evidence of this witness.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Very well, Your Honour.

 3             The next Prosecution witness is Mr. Liri Loshi.  Mr. Loshi will

 4     be testifying to the allegations contained in paragraph 75(F) and

 5     Schedule F of the indictment and paragraph 77.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that Mr. or Dr.?

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Dr. Liri Loshi, yes.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

10             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation shown

12     to you on the card.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  LIRI LOSHI

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

18     Ms. Kravetz has questions for you.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

21        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you please state your full name.

22        A.   Good morning.  My name is Liri Loshi.  The first name is Liri and

23     the surname is Loshi.

24        Q.   When and where were you born, Mr. Loshi?

25        A.   I was born in Padalishte on the 20th of August, 1960.  It's in

Page 686

 1     the municipality of Skenderaj in Kosova.

 2        Q.   I understand, Mr. Loshi, that you are a doctor by profession and

 3     that you are of Kosovo Albanian ethnicity.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I want to begin by asking you some questions of events that took

 6     place in the municipality of Skenderaj, or Srbica, in March of 1999.  In

 7     the days preceding the NATO bombardment, that is, on the days before 24

 8     March 1999, where were you living?

 9        A.   During those days I was living in Leqina, and I was acting in

10     this area:  Leqina, Izbica, Turiqevc, Korenica, and the villages close to

11     them.

12        Q.   Once the NATO bombing began on 24th March, did you remain in

13     Lecina?

14        A.   Yes.  On the 24th of March, I was in Leqina.

15        Q.   At the time were you a member of the KLA?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Since when had you been a member of the KLA, Mr. Loshi?

18        A.   I became a member of the KLA after my house was burned in

19     Padalishte and after I was expelled by the Serbian forces in the place

20     where I was working, and for that reason I had to leave my village and

21     went to live in Leqina.  And it was at that time that I joined the KLA.

22     It was around August 1999.

23        Q.   You mention that your house in Padaliste was burned.  When did

24     this occur?

25        A.   My house was burned.  It was burned by the Serbian forces.  I

Page 687

 1     don't know why.  At that time I worked as a doctor.  The Serb forces came

 2     to the village.  They burnt my house first and then they burnt a couple

 3     of other houses.  They expelled all the villagers from the village.

 4        Q.   Now, you told us that you left Padaliste and you went to Lecina.

 5     Did your family come with you to Lecina?

 6        A.   No, my family didn't because my family went to Mitrovica and from

 7     there to Prishtina.  I was alone.

 8        Q.   By the time of the NATO bombing, had your family returned to live

 9     with you in the municipality of Srbica?

10        A.   No.  During the NATO bombardment, my family remained in

11     Prishtina.

12        Q.   And during that period, were you still practicing as a doctor?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What was your role within the KLA?

15        A.   I did not have a specific role.  I joined the KLA mostly because

16     of safety reasons.  I asked them to give me a gun so that I could

17     survive.  There were only two solutions in front of me:  One was to leave

18     the place; the other was to remain and be in danger of my life.  And I

19     chose the second, but I asked the KLA to give me a gun.  At that time the

20     condition was that they could supply me with a gun but I had to become a

21     member of the KLA.  That's how it happened, and I never regretted.  I am

22     proud that I was a member of that army, even today.

23        Q.   Were you ever engaged in any combat activity with the KLA, either

24     in 1998 or in 1999?

25        A.   No, I didn't participate in any combat activity.

Page 688

 1             You asked me earlier what my tasks were or what my role was in

 2     the KLA.  I did not have a specific task, but I was a doctor, a

 3     physician, and I took care of the civilians and the soldiers.  So in

 4     fact, this was my main job, and whenever there were wounded people, I

 5     went as close to them as possible, to them so that I could give them

 6     first aid.

 7             It is impossible to go to the front as a doctor, but I always was

 8     in the rear.  But as I said, I always took care of the civilians and the

 9     soldiers.  At the same time I also reported for the Kosova Radio and

10     Television, which was based in Tirana at the time.

11        Q.   Now, you told us that on the 24th March you were in the village

12     of Lecina.  Did you remain in the village of Lecina throughout the last

13     week of March?

14        A.   On the 24th of March I was in Leqina; also on the 25th and the

15     26th I was in these villages.  I left Leqina on the 26th, and I couldn't

16     go back anymore, in the future, because the Serb forces started to shell

17     the area so it would be very dangerous for me to enter Leqina.  And that

18     day, on the 26th, I remained in Izbica.  A day earlier I visited the

19     village of Korenica -- correction, Klodernice, where three people had

20     been killed by the shelling from the village of Junik.  Three people were

21     killed in a house.

22             That day, on the 25th of March, the population was concerned and

23     they started to leave their houses.  I went and visited the people

24     wherever they were in the village of Klodernice, as I mentioned, where

25     the people had gathered, and then I returned to Turiqevc where the clinic

Page 689

 1     was, continued with my work there.  I returned to Leqina on the 26th --

 2        Q.   If I may stop you there just so we understand.  So you left

 3     Lecina on the 26th of March; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you tell us that you went to Kladernica that day?

 6        A.   On the 25th of March I went to Klodernice.  The reason I

 7     discussed this at length is because on the 25th of March when I went to

 8     Klodernice, then after that I went to Turiqevc and then returned to

 9     Leqina.  On the 25th I slept there, while on the 26th I left Leqina and

10     went to Turiqevc, from Turiqevc returned to Izbica.  By mid-day I was in

11     Izbica and spent the whole day there.

12        Q.   You told us that on the 26th of March the population was

13     concerned and they start to leave their houses.  Which population were

14     you referring to, which of all these villages that you've been speaking

15     about?

16        A.   As I said, on the 25th of March the population was really

17     concerned and shocked by the killing of the innocent people that had

18     happened, so they began to leave their houses because they thought they

19     were not safe there anymore.

20             In the beginning they started to gather in the school of

21     Klodernice, and then some of them thought that it would be better for

22     them to move to Izbica.  So on the 26th of March the people from the --

23     from all the villages, a large group of people from Klodernice and other

24     villages - Leqina, Vojnik, Kopiliq, Rakitnica, and other villages, all of

25     them started to gather in Izbica because the place where they gathered

Page 690

 1     was a kind of valley between two hills and they felt safer there from the

 2     shelling.  The geographical arrangement was such that it would protect

 3     them from shelling.

 4        Q.   Dr. Loshi, you told us that you went to Izbica on the 26th of

 5     March.  Why did you decide to go to Izbica that day?

 6        A.   When I went to Turiqevc where the clinic was, there were no

 7     people there, no patients, so how could I stay there alone?  There were

 8     some technicians, medical assistants who helped me there.  We took some

 9     medical equipment and decided to go to Izbica, thinking that that would

10     be a safer area for me and for the team that worked there.  At the same

11     time we also wanted to be close to the people.  As I said, there was a

12     large number of people there, about 25.000 of them.  So the reason was, I

13     wanted to be safe but also be close to the people who I could help in

14     case of need.

15        Q.   You say that -- you said that there were about 25.000 people in

16     Izbica.  Where were these people staying?

17        A.   You mean where they were staying, where they were living that

18     day?

19        Q.   Yes, that day.  I'm just asking you what the situation was like

20     when you arrived in Izbica on the 26th of March.

21        A.   [In English] Okay.

22             [Interpretation] That day the people were in the valley close to

23     the school.  There is a school with four classrooms there.  I think some

24     of them were inside the school, but most of them were outside.  As I

25     said, there were large numbers of people.  They were in the field, in the

Page 691

 1     valley, all there, outside.

 2        Q.   For how long or for how many days did you remain in Izbica?

 3        A.   I stayed in Izbica on the 26th, I think only on that day.  The

 4     next day, early in the morning, about 4.00 a.m., I left together with a

 5     friend.  He was a doctor as well, Xhavit Dragaj.  I took him in my car

 6     together with his family, and we went to Shik [as interpreted].

 7             At this time the majority of the population began to leave

 8     towards the same direction, so -- I mean the direction from Izbica to

 9     Shik, because there was very heavy shelling on the Izbica village, and

10     the fear was that the Serb forces would penetrate to Izbica very soon, so

11     the majority of the people started to leave and go Tushile.  And I did

12     the same.

13        Q.   Just to clarify the transcript, could you repeat the name of the

14     village to where you headed when you left Izbica because I don't think

15     it's in --

16        A.   Yes.  Tushile.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.  I think it's spelled T-u-s-h-i-l-e.

18        Q.   So you told us that the majority of the population also started

19     to head in the same direction.  Now, for how many days did you remain in

20     Tusilje?

21        A.   I went to Tushile on the 27th and I remained there the whole day

22     of the 27th, also on the 28th.  So in total I stayed there for two days.

23     On the 29th I went to Kopiliq.

24        Q.   Now, you mentioned that there was heavy shelling in Izbica

25     village or -- yes, that's how it's been written.  When did the shelling

Page 692

 1     begin?

 2        A.   The shelling commenced on the 24th from the direction of Runik.

 3     Three people were killed in Klodernice village, as I mentioned earlier.

 4     The next days the forces came from the direction of Runik and to Leqina;

 5     this is on the 26th.  And on the 27th they surrounded, they encircled,

 6     the village of Izbica.

 7        Q.   Now, these two villages that you referred to, Runik and Lecina,

 8     where are they located in relation to Izbica?

 9        A.   Runik is quite far, I would say about 4 or 5 kilometres, far

10     away.  Leqina is on the border.  It's the first village near Izbica.

11        Q.   Now, you told us that you went to Tusilje on the 27th and stayed

12     there on the 28th and that you later left for the village of Obilic.

13     Could you explain why you went on the 29th to the village of Obilic?

14        A.   Yes.  As I explained earlier, when we went to Tushile, we went

15     there because we felt safer there.  We thought we were in danger at

16     Izbica.  We felt safe in Tushile for more or less two days because there

17     wasn't any shelling at that time.  So our security depended on the

18     shelling that we would hear from the distance.  So from the shelling we

19     could tell approximately where the Serbian forces were at the time of the

20     shelling.

21             So on the 29th the noise of the shelling increased and we got the

22     impression that the Serbian forces were very near.  So on the 29th in the

23     evening, which was the best time for movement as we could not be seen by

24     the Serbian forces, I left for the direction that I used earlier to go to

25     Izbica.  But this time I didn't go to Izbica; I went a little bit to the

Page 693

 1     right side up to the village of Kopiliq i Eperm, because the Serbian

 2     forces had already burned that part, had removed the civilian population.

 3     They had killed cattle, people, burned the houses.  So their axis of

 4     movement now was in the direction of Tushile.  So I was going in the

 5     opposite direction compared to them, to the area where I had been

 6     earlier, which they had already destroyed and burnt.

 7        Q.   Now, you told us that on the day that you left Izbica the

 8     population also started moving out because of this shelling.  Do you know

 9     if anyone remained in Izbica, or did all the population leave on that

10     same day?

11        A.   I left Izbica very early in the morning, as I said, at around

12     4.00 a.m.  My impression at the time was that most of the people were

13     leaving.  When I went there in the morning, I had the impression that

14     there were about 2.000 or 3.000, up to 4.000 people.  The rest of the

15     people that I saw there this morning, they moved at the same time in the

16     same direction as we did; some on vehicles, although there were not that

17     many cars; some on tractors; and the majority of people were leaving on

18     foot from Izbica to Tushile.  So I met these people en route and,

19     therefore, I believe that on that day about 3.000 or 4.000 people

20     remained in Izbica.  But as I said earlier, there were many, many, about

21     25.000 before, when I went there on the previous occasion.

22        Q.   Now, you told us that on the 29th you had been moving around and

23     that you arrived to the village of Obilic.  For how many days did you

24     remain in Obilic?

25        A.   I spent one night in Kopiliq, so one day and one night.  I spent

Page 694

 1     the night in a house there in Kopiliq.  There, I came across some KLA

 2     soldiers, and this was by accident because the houses were burnt.  I was

 3     there with this friend of mine who was also a doctor, and there was a

 4     teacher.  This house that we went to belonged to this teacher.  There, we

 5     met these KLA soldiers.  Shaban Dragaj was there, too.  I mentioned him

 6     several times.  He was a chief of brigade, of the KLA brigade.  This is

 7     where I saw him, and with him I went to Izbica and Vojnik on the

 8     following day.

 9             What I wanted to add here is that during this day, on the 30th of

10     March -- so I went there on the 29th in the evening.  On the 30th, during

11     the day, I saw the Serbian forces in the direction of Tushile forcing the

12     civilian population out of their houses to the asphalt road,

13     Skenderaj-Kline road.  Part of the population went back in the direction

14     of Kline, while the other part in the direction of Skenderaj.  This I saw

15     from the village of Kopiliq.

16             In the meantime a tank, military tank, passed by from Turiqevc to

17     the direction of Runik.  I was very close.  I saw this tank from a close

18     distance, I would say 500 metres.

19        Q.   Just to clarify something here.  You said that on the 30th of

20     March you saw Serbian forces in the direction of Tushile forcing the

21     civilian population out of their homes.  From where were you observing

22     this?

23        A.   I was in Kopiliq i Eperm on a hill, and from there you can see

24     freely what is going on.  I had binoculars, too.  I could see the

25     movement with the naked eye, but it was much better using the binoculars.

Page 695

 1     So I could see the Serbian forces moving from Tushile in the direction of

 2     Rakitnica, a village by the asphalt road.  And they were directing

 3     people, some in the direction of Skenderaj and some others in the

 4     opposite direction, that is, in the direction of Kline.

 5        Q.   When you say you saw Serbian forces, who exactly did you see

 6     directing people in these different directions?

 7        A.   Those that I saw were mixed.  They were mainly military forces

 8     wearing greenish uniforms, and there were also Serbian forces that were

 9     dressed in uniforms, greyish uniforms.  But the military forces were

10     dominant because this is what I remember, the military uniforms.

11        Q.   And you also referred to having observed a tank passed by

12     Turicevac.  From where were you observing this when the tank passed?

13        A.   From the same location.  I saw the tank early in the morning, at

14     approximately 6.00 or 7.00 in the morning.  The tank was moving from the

15     direction of Turiqevc in the direction of Runik.  It was only one tank,

16     and the noise of another tank could be heard.  I suppose that a tank was

17     broken and that this one that I saw was going there as help, as

18     assistance.

19             It wasn't an attack or anything, but personally I feared that

20     they would come to our direction because there were KLA soldiers there.

21     I thought that they would come to the houses -- to the house up there

22     where we were, but they didn't.  They proceeded in the direction of

23     Runik.

24        Q.   Now, you mentioned that in Obilic you met Shaban Dragaj, a KLA

25     commander, and that you went to Izbica.  Why did you decide to return to

Page 696

 1     Izbica on the 30th of March?

 2        A.   I decide to go back to Izbica because I had an information that

 3     the Serbian police -- forces, correction, committed a massacre there.  I

 4     received this information while I was at Tushile.  A group of women came

 5     there, and I spoke to them as a doctor and as a human being, so I spoke

 6     to these women, and they told me that the Serbian forces had entered

 7     Izbica on the 28th and that they had separated the men, all the men that

 8     were there, those that were above the age of 14.

 9             Some of the women said that they, the Serbian forces, had asked

10     the children for their age.  They had only separated those who were above

11     14 years old, and people who were above 14 were mainly elderly people,

12     civilians, so they separated them from the women and the children.

13             And according to the story of this woman, whose father-in-law was

14     taken by the Serbs, the group of women and children was made to leave in

15     the direction of Turiqevc, and from there they were directed further to

16     the direction of Kline.  It is a small town.  It's another municipality.

17     It's about 12, 13, or 15 kilometres far.

18             So this woman was telling me that when they separated the men,

19     the women start to move in the direction of Turiqevc, and they could no

20     longer join the direction where the men were taken.  So this woman had

21     heard gun-shots and she was under the impression that they had all been

22     executed.  And she said that her father-in-law was probably executed,

23     too, so I asked her, What do you think about the number of people who

24     were probably executed there?  And she said, Around 100 or even more.

25             I just hope that this didn't happen, that this massacre didn't

Page 697

 1     happen, or in case it happened, that the number of the people executed

 2     was much smaller.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  Before we move further, I would like to have

 4     Exhibit 00615 up on the screen, and I would like page 17.

 5        Q.   Sir, we're going to look at a map, just so we understand where

 6     all these villages that you've been referring to are located.

 7        A.   Before you look at this, I was quite emotional and did not finish

 8     my answer to your question because you asked me as to why I went to

 9     Izbica.  So my answer is that I went to Izbica just to verify whether

10     this information was true, whether these people were killed.  So I just

11     wanted to go there to verify this information, to see how these people

12     were killed, if they were killed, and to take notes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  So could we have 00615.  Oh, I don't have anything

15     on my screen.  It's not appearing on my screen.  I'm sorry.

16             Could we zoom in to the top right-hand corner.  There, it's now

17     on my screen.  I apologise, Your Honours.  If we could zoom in on the top

18     right-hand corner of page 17.  If we could zoom in where the village of

19     Srbica appears, further down.

20        Q.   Now, sir, are you able to see the map on your screen?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  I wonder if the usher could assist the witness.

23        Q.   There's a pen on the side of your screen.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  If the usher could kindly assist the witness.

25        Q.   And I would like you to draw --

Page 698

 1        A.   I have a pen.

 2        Q.   This is a special pen.  Please don't write with your pen on this

 3     screen.

 4        A.   [In English] Okay.  Yeah.

 5             [Interpretation] No, no, I won't use it on the screen.

 6        Q.   So could you draw a circle around the village of Izbica, just so

 7     we see where it is.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, you referred to making -- observing the Serb troop movement

10     and a tank from Obilic.  Could you draw a 1 where the village of Obilic

11     is?

12        A.   Let me find it first.  It's here.

13        Q.   Could you draw a number 1 next to that, sir, please.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Now, could you indicate where you saw the tank and the troops, in

16     which direction you saw them moving, just with an arrow.

17        A.   So from Turiqevc, which is here, in the direction of Runik.  So

18     Turiqevc is here.  They were moving in this direction.  Runik is quite

19     far.  So this is the route which might be asphalted now, but at the time

20     it was with gravel.  So this is where I saw the tank, and it was moving

21     in the direction of Runik.  I'll mark it with an arrow.  Here is the

22     tank, moving from Turiqevc, so I could see it from here, from Kopiliq,

23     and it was moving in the direction of Runik.

24             I've marked this route with a straight line.  Perhaps the road is

25     here, so the tank should have been closer to Kopiliq.  You can see the

Page 699

 1     turn here.  I've marked the direction with a straight line, but the route

 2     is denoted on the map.  You can see it there.  So my line represents just

 3     the direction, not the road itself.  I don't know if I'm clear or not.

 4     If I'm not clear, please ask me and I will clarify.

 5        Q.   So the tank was moving north from Turiqevc up to Runik, on the

 6     road that we see on the --

 7        A.   Yes, exactly.  You're right.  It was moving towards north.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have an exhibit number assigned to the

10     map.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  You're tendering this, are you?

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00287, Your Honours.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:

16        Q.   Now, sir, you told us why you returned to Izbica on the 30th of

17     March.  What did you find there once you returned that day?

18        A.   When I returned to Izbica, I saw the bodies lying at the place

19     where they were executed.  I stayed there for a very short time.  It was

20     dark, but I could see that my fears came true, that there was a large

21     number of people, which had been calculated as about a hundred or over a

22     hundred, that had been killed.  So I verified and I could see that the

23     massacre had really happened and there was a large number of people lying

24     on the ground at the place where they were executed.  And then I

25     withdrew.  I just had a look at what had happened and went to my

Page 700

 1     patients, and then I rested until the next day.

 2        Q.   What did you decide to do once you discovered that there were

 3     bodies there in Izbica?

 4        A.   Well, as a doctor I saw that I could not help the executed

 5     people, but as a journalist I thought that I could record the massacre so

 6     that I could show the public opinion what had happened so that they would

 7     learn about the massacre committed by the Serb forces in Izbica.  This is

 8     what I decided, but unfortunately I did not have a camera.

 9             When I left Leqina on the 26th in the morning, I left my camera

10     over there because I thought I could go back, my personal camera.  So I

11     did not have a camera with me.  I did not dare to go back for safety

12     reasons, but I discussed the thing with Demush Dragaj and Shaban, where I

13     stayed in Demush Dragaj's house; I was staying at that time, I mentioned

14     it.  Naim Rexhepi was the head of the village, civilian head of the

15     village, and we discussed how could we find a camera so that we could

16     record the bodies the next day.

17             Demush said that he could find a camera, and he told me that his

18     brother-in-law from Turjan - his name is Sefedin Thaqi - he had hidden

19     his camera together with some other things underground.  He had made a

20     hole in the ground and had put these things in there.  And Demush knew

21     about this, from Sefedin Thaqi had done, so he took it upon himself to

22     find it and take the camera, and we would go and record the massacre on

23     the 20 -- correction, on the 31st of March.

24        Q.   Were you able to return the next day to film these bodies?

25        A.   In the evening I went to see my patients; then also in the

Page 701

 1     morning I went to see some of my patients.  I only had a couple of

 2     patients who had been wounded in Izbica.  Those were all the patients I

 3     had, so this did not take me a long time.  And then after that I went to

 4     Izbica early in the morning on the 31st of March.

 5        Q.   And what did you do when you went to Izbica on the 31st of March?

 6        A.   When I went to Izbica, Sefedin Thaqi himself had come with his

 7     camera and he had started recording.  And I was very happy about that

 8     because the promise that had been given last -- the previous night that

 9     we would have a camera had come true.  The person was there; he had

10     started recording.

11             We went to all the bodies.  I gave instructions because I myself

12     could not do the recording, all of it.  I just gave him instructions what

13     to record because I wanted to have a cassette that would document

14     everything, which then would be completed with the conversations I would

15     have with the survivors of the massacres and other information I would

16     have later.

17             So that's how it happened.  I gave instructions to Sefedin and he

18     went on recording.  I returned -- went back, and then I contacted him

19     later in the day.  He continued recording during the whole day.  I did

20     have -- I did have a lot to do during that day.  There were some patients

21     of mine who were chronicle -- chronic patients, who had chronic

22     illnesses, and some people who were wounded.  I met some people whose

23     relatives had been killed in the massacre, so I had to deal with them

24     first.

25        Q.   And where were these bodies discovered, the bodies that you and

Page 702

 1     Sefedin Thaqi filmed?

 2        A.   The bodies were in two large groups.  One group was

 3     immediately -- as you enter the village, there is a big field in Izbica,

 4     in the eastern direction, while the other one was about 800, 900 metres

 5     away from the first group, in the western direction.  So these were the

 6     places were the recording was made.  Then recordings were made, also, of

 7     the place where the civilian population was staying before they were

 8     forcefully expelled by the Serb forces.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would like to play a short clip, and this is

10     65 ter number 00232.  If we could have that up on the screen.  If we

11     could ...

12        Q.   Do you have that up on your screen, sir?

13        A.   Yes.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could stop right there.

16        Q.   Sir, do you recognize these images?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you explain what was just shown there on our screen, what was

19     depicted in these images?

20        A.   This depicts the group that was in the western direction.  It is

21     a large group of people.  I can't remember the exact number, but there

22     were at least 40 bodies there.  I never counted the bodies myself; I

23     think I've said that earlier.

24             As you can see, they were very close to each other and they were

25     all elderly people.  I think there was a young man under 30 years old in

Page 703

 1     that group.  I think he was deaf.  Well, as you can see from the pictures

 2     themselves, these people had sticks that helped them to walk.  They were

 3     invalids; they were not able to move normally or walk normally.  And it

 4     was exactly these people who were executed there.

 5        Q.   What would you say was the average age of the victims that you --

 6     that we just saw on the screen, that were found at this location?

 7        A.   I'm not exactly sure but about 60 to 80 years old, so an average

 8     of 70 years old.  There was a woman there who was born in 1911, so their

 9     birthdays were 1920's or so.  Maybe the average age was 70 years old.

10     That's what I could say.  Only a few of them were younger.

11        Q.   You said there was also a woman in this group that was found

12     there.

13        A.   No.  I said it wrong.  This woman was burned in a tractor.  It

14     was down in the village where the people had been forced to leave out.

15     This woman could not move.  She was in a tractor, and the Serb forces

16     just set the tractor on fire and she was burned alive in the tractor.

17     But there was no woman in that group that was executed there now.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could see a second clip now.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we also play a third clip.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MS. KRAVETZ:

24        Q.   Dr. Loshi, did you recognize those images that we just saw on the

25     screen?

Page 704

 1        A.   Yes.  This is, again, in Izbica but the opposite direction.  This

 2     is the group that was in the eastern direction.

 3        Q.   And are these images also images of the video that you and

 4     Mr. Thaqi filmed?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Were you able to recognize any of the victims either in this

 7     group that we saw here or the other ones that were found in the western

 8     direction?

 9        A.   Yes.  I knew a great number of those people.  I have forgotten

10     their names now because they used to be my patients and I knew their

11     names and surnames.  Now, with the passing of time, I've forgotten some

12     of the names but some I can remember.

13             Some of the people in the group were my relatives and they

14     remained unidentified until the 1st of April, because the funeral

15     happened on the 31st of March and 1st of April, but my relatives had

16     remained there because nobody had identified them.  It was Selman

17     Jashari, and Sami Loshi.  Selman Jashari was Jashar's father, and Jashar

18     was Sami's father.  So three generations from the Padalishte family, they

19     died there.

20             In the other group, the one in the eastern direction --

21        Q.   May I stop you there just to clarify the names.  You said there

22     were three generations.  One person was called Selman Jashari; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   No, just Selman.  His son was Jashari.  Their surname is Loshi,

25     so Selman Loshi, and so on.

Page 705

 1        Q.   Oh, so, this is correct:  It's Selman Loshi; his son is Jashar?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And the last name is Loshi.  And his son, what was his name?

 4        A.   Sami, his first name was Sami.  Selman was over 80 years old,

 5     Jashar was about 55, and the other one, about 25 years old.  I mean Sami,

 6     Jashar's son.

 7        Q.   What sort of injuries were you able to observe on these bodies,

 8     the bodies found in these two large groups?

 9        A.   These were wounds that are created, of course, by firearms at

10     close distance with projectiles of large caliber, because these were very

11     large wounds on their faces, bodies, hands, arms and legs.  Wherever they

12     were caught by the projectiles, the wounds were irregular and very large.

13     So my opinion at that time was that they were killed at close range by

14     projectiles of very large caliber.

15             We also saw cuts on the bodies.  On Sami's face, I saw some cuts.

16     I don't know whether they were caused after the massacre or during the

17     massacre, but there were cuts on his face.  So in addition to being

18     killed by bullets, he had cuts on his face.  There were other cases now

19     and then where we saw cuts made by knives or razors.

20        Q.   And of the bodies that you were able to observe, were any of them

21     dressed in any sort of military uniform or military attire?

22        A.   No.  In the groups that we found, there were none of them that

23     had military uniforms on.  Everybody was a civilian.  In the funeral, I

24     saw one body wearing a uniform of the KLA, and I understood then that

25     this was Ajet Beqiri who had been killed a day before the massacre

Page 706

 1     together with Beqiri, on the 27th of March.  There were no other bodies

 2     in uniform in these groups.

 3             While Ajet, who was in uniform, and Zaim, who was killed together

 4     with him, they were members of the KLA, Zaim was a nurse, and he used to

 5     work with me.  At the time he was wearing civilian clothes; however, he

 6     was a member of the KLA.

 7        Q.   And where were these two persons killed, the ones that you just

 8     referred to, Ajet and Zaim Beqiri?

 9        A.   They were killed far from the place of the massacre, maybe 1

10     kilometre away.  I did not make any measurements as such, but I know that

11     he was killed close to his home.  He was at his home with Ajet, and they

12     went out, probably, to see where the forces were.  And when they went up

13     the hill, there was a police or military check-point, a check-point of

14     the Serb forces anyway, so they had been seen and killed by them.

15        Q.   Now, you told us at the beginning of your testimony that at the

16     time you were a member of the KLA.  To your knowledge, were any of those

17     people that were killed on the 28th of March members of the KLA?

18        A.   Are you speaking about the groups of people that were killed?

19     No, no, there weren't any, except for these two people that I mentioned.

20     But these two people were killed a day earlier and were not in the groups

21     that were executed at that place.

22        Q.   I would like to show you a third clip.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could play the -- a fourth clip, I'm sorry.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could stop that there.

Page 707

 1        Q.   Sir, do you recognize these images?

 2        A.   Yes.  This is the area where the civilian population had

 3     gathered.  I can hear this noise.  Is the footage stopped?  Can I speak?

 4        Q.   Yes, the footage has stopped.

 5        A.   [In English] Okay.

 6             [Interpretation] So this was the location where the civilian

 7     population had gathered to on the 26th of March and the 27th of March, a

 8     location where about 20.000 to 25.000 people had sheltered and where

 9     3.000 or 4.000 people remained, refugees, internally displaced people.

10             So this is the area where the men had been separated from the

11     women and children and were directed to two different directions, east

12     and west, and were executed.  So the women and children were not allowed

13     to remain on this area but were directed to the directions I mentioned

14     earlier.

15             And in the meantime, as you can see from the images, they

16     destroyed tractors and cars; they burnt them.  They burnt everything they

17     found there.  This is where the woman that I mentioned was burnt on a

18     tractor, and a woman from the neighborhood of Dragaj in Leqina was also

19     killed in this location.  I never learnt about the circumstances of her

20     killing, but for the other woman, I know that she died because she was

21     burned in the tractor.

22        Q.   Do you know the name of the woman that was burned in the tractor?

23        A.   Yes.  Her name is Ajmone Citaku.  I think she was born in 1911

24     from the notes that we made.  I think she was about 81 or so at the time.

25     You can tell -- I think she was born in 1911.  She is on the list that I

Page 708

 1     gave the ICTY investigators.  She is in the list of the people who were

 2     executed.

 3        Q.   Now, we saw images of a woman at the beginning of this clip.  Is

 4     this a different woman than the one you're just referring to, or is it

 5     the same person?

 6        A.   No.  It's a different woman.  The woman that was burned was not

 7     recorded because she was burnt.  The woman that you saw now is also from

 8     Dragaj neighborhood.  She was much younger, as you can tell from the

 9     images.  I'm not sure about her name, but I think she was called Zade

10     Dragaj.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we now look at another additional clip.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  And the next clip, please.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we stop that there.

16        Q.   Now, sir, could you explain what was happening there in those

17     images we just saw?

18        A.   After the graves were opened, the bodies were placed inside, and

19     the images depict the covering of the bodies with earth.  This is the day

20     when we buried the bodies of the victims of the massacre at Izbica, so

21     the recording and the burial took part on the same date, 31st of March.

22     So everybody was working.  They were bringing the bodies from the

23     location where they had been killed to the location of the graves, and

24     some others were opening the graves.  And as you can see now, some are

25     now covering those graves with earth.

Page 709

 1        Q.   And these are, again, images of the video that you and Mr. Thaqi

 2     recorded; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  The same tape, the same day, the same time.

 4        Q.   Do you know approximately how many persons were buried that day

 5     in Izbica?

 6        A.   I don't know exactly, but more than 100, the majority of the

 7     bodies.  Maybe 120, but I'm not sure how many were buried on that day,

 8     because several people, my cousins and some others, remained there

 9     unburied because they had not been identified since their relatives were

10     not there to identify them on the 31st of March.  So their relatives were

11     expected to come and identify them on the 1st of April.

12             I believe there were seven or eight buried the following day, on

13     the 1st of April, 1999, but I know the total number of the two days of

14     people who were buried.  On the 31st of March and 1st of April, a total

15     of 127 bodies were buried, and we compiled the list.  This is the list

16     with the names of those who were buried on these two dates.

17        Q.   Who compiled the list of names of those who were buried?

18        A.   We formed a council, burial council, consisting of Afrim

19     Xhemajli, Sadik Xhemajli, and some other people from the village of

20     Izbica.  The list itself was compiled by Afrim Xhemajli, who at the same

21     time took care of the location where the people would be buried so that

22     in the future in case things got mixed up, people would know who was

23     buried where, and so that people later on after the war and after Kosova

24     was liberated could come back to the location and rebury their dearest.

25             So this is the method used in compiling the list.  It follows the

Page 710

 1     line.  There are three columns on the list and each corresponds to the

 2     line of the graves in Izbica.  Afrim Xhemajli was responsible for the

 3     list.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, were the graves marked in any way so that they could

 5     later be identified?

 6        A.   To my recollection, yes.  They were recorded on a wood plank, so

 7     the name of the person and where he was from and the year of birth.

 8     Maybe not all of them had their year of birth placed on the wood plank,

 9     but the names were there.  One remained unidentified, but later on he was

10     identified.  I don't remember his name.  This is the person who was deaf

11     that I mentioned earlier.  At the time, we didn't know his name, but

12     later on this information was provided.

13        Q.   Now, sir, on the images we just saw, we saw persons in uniform.

14     Who were these persons?

15        A.   I only saw one person.  I remember his name.  His name was Avdi.

16     He was a KLA member.  I don't recall seeing any other member.  Maybe

17     there were, but this is whom we saw.  He was a tall man, he was dressed

18     in uniform, his name was Avdi, and he was a KLA member.  As I said

19     earlier, there might have been other members of the KLA there who were

20     working together with the villagers on the day of the burial so that they

21     could bury their close ones, too.

22             Let me explain.  At the time there were not so many people in

23     Izbica, maybe a total of 40 or 50 people, so those soldiers who were

24     there were also obliged to help with the bodies; to carry them, to dig up

25     graves, and to do all the work related to the funeral.  And they had

Page 711

 1     relatives among the victims, so a soldier would come to identify his

 2     father or his uncle or his brother and so on, and then bury his family

 3     member.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I see we're approaching the time for

 5     the break.  Just before we break, I would like to tender into evidence

 6     this video.  It's 65 ter number 00232.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  It's all one DVD, is it?

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  It's one.  We've seen clips of it, but it's just

 9     one DVD.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00288, Your Honours.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  Now, there are a series of still photos of these

13     videos that accompany the video.  These are 65 ter 00230 and 65 ter

14     00231, which I'm not going to go through with the witness but I wish to

15     tender at this time.  They're just still photos from the video that we

16     just played.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  What is the point of the still photos?

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  They just assist in viewing the video and

19     specifically identifying some of the victims there.  We didn't play the

20     video in its entirety, but some of the victims of this massacre which are

21     listed in our schedule are identified in the video.  And it is --

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Whose identified them?  Some other witness or this

23     witness or what?

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  Who's going to -- I was just going to get to that,

25     Your Honour.

Page 712

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  We wish to also tender a portion of this witness's

 3     statement that contains the transcript for this video.  This is 02436.02.

 4             The reason for this is that the transcript explains image by

 5     image what is happening and identifies -- indicates where the different

 6     victims are identified, those that appear in the video itself.  And we

 7     consider that this will -- this portion of the statement will assist Your

 8     Honours in viewing the video and understanding what is happening.

 9             The transcript also contains a column which indicates the still

10     photo that refers to the specific image, so Your Honours can compare the

11     video with the transcript and the photos and actually understand -- or

12     better understand what is taking place in the images that are played in

13     the video.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask the Trial

16     Chamber to stick to the order that has been envisaged, that the exhibits

17     are first shown to the witness and then tendered into evidence.  The

18     reason -- well, there are several reasons, and if we're talking about a

19     list that explains who can be seen on what recording, then there will

20     probably be questions about who made the list, who produced it, and so

21     on.  And that is why I would kindly ask that the evidence be tendered

22     into evidence after it is shown to the witness, nothing else.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, is the identification made by the

24     doctor in any of this film footage and his statement challenged by the

25     Defence?  Is it disputed?

Page 713

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence does not want to

 2     challenge that at this point in time.  The Defence will clear this up

 3     through its cross-examination.  We will not be challenging this, but this

 4     is a procedural objection.  I thought that it was better for the evidence

 5     to be tendered into evidence only after they were shown to the witness.

 6     That's what I wanted to say, Mr. President, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  The Chamber will adjourn now so that counsel can

 8     discuss what is now proposed.  As I understand it, the video, having been

 9     shown, or most of it, the Prosecution now wishes us to receive both some

10     still shots taken from the video and a part of the original statement of

11     Dr. Loshi in which he identifies bodies that are shown in the film

12     footage.

13             Now, if his identification of those bodies is not disputed, it

14     could well save quite a lot of time if we proceed as Ms. Kravetz is

15     suggesting.  On the other hand, if you are disputing the identification

16     of those bodies, we might have to be much more particular.

17             So could you and Ms. Kravetz discuss over the break how we might

18     most efficiently proceed to deal with this identification evidence.  And

19     we will have our first break now and resume at five minutes past 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Kravetz.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, Your Honour.  While the witness is being

24     brought in to the court, I just wanted to indicate that I consulted with

25     my colleague from the Defence during the break, and from what I

Page 714

 1     understood, he has no objection to us tendering the still photos, so I

 2     seek to tender those and the video at this stage.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm grateful for that, Ms. Kravetz, to you and to

 4     Mr. Djordjevic, and if you could proceed accordingly.  Thank you.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have an exhibit number, then, for the

 6     three exhibits, the video and the --

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Could you indicate for the record what they are --

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  -- the three that you seek to tender?

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  The video is 65 ter 00232, and the sets of still

11     shots are 00230 and 00231.  Thank you.  I seek to tender those at this

12     stage.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  That's the video we've already received as an

14     exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As P00288, Your Honours.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'm sorry.  Yes.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Now the still shots, please.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  The first one with 65 ter 00230, Your Honours,

19     will be P00289, and the next one identified as P00 -- as 00231 would be

20     assigned P00290, Your Honours.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Now, as for the transcript of the video, the

22     agreement that was reached was that I would show it to the witness and

23     have him identify it prior to tendering it into evidence.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  So could we please have 65 ter 02436.02 up on the

Page 715

 1     screen.  Has that appeared?  I don't have anything on my screen yet.

 2        Q.   Sir, do you recognize the document that is before you on the

 3     screen?

 4        A.   Yes, I recognize it.  This is a document that was compiled by the

 5     investigator of the Tribunal; Malvin Dagsland, I think was his name.  He

 6     asked me to give my comments to him by listening to the tape.  However,

 7     the description is his, but now and then I helped him with the

 8     description.

 9             The description was based on the photographs as we saw them.  I

10     helped him with the identification of bodies, the small number of people

11     that I was able to identify.  Also, when I heard people on the tape

12     saying the name of a person that they identify, for example, Hetem Tahi,

13     I helped him with that.  However, if you asked me today, Who is Hetem

14     Tahi in these photographs, I might not be able to recognize the person.

15     So the column that says "Descriptions," I am responsible for -- sorry,

16     this column that says "Comments," I am responsible for that one.

17        Q.   And just to clarify, we see there on the screen one that says --

18     the first entry there says, "Recorded on tape," and then we have Hetem

19     Tahi's name.  This was information that you were listening to when the

20     video was being played, if I understood you correctly, and that you were

21     providing to the investigator, so that would be included in this chart?

22     Is that a correct understanding?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  That was the comment I made on Hetem Tahi.  I think I

24     recognised him because of the fact -- let me see grey jacket, grey

25     cardigan.  I'm not sure whether he had a walking stick or not to help him

Page 716

 1     walk.  But I did give him in name, yes.  However, I'm not sure whether I

 2     recognized him at the time or I heard somebody mention his name on tape.

 3     I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this exhibit.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  I need some further assistance, Ms. Kravetz.  The

 7     second column appears to identify different photos by progressive

 8     numbers.  Where are the photographs with those numbers?

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  These are the still shots that I referred to

10     earlier that I just tendered into evidence.  As I explained earlier, the

11     reason we seek to tender this transcript is precisely so Your Honours can

12     match the video, because the first column has the frame with the minutes

13     of the video, the second column has the photos, and then there's the

14     description.  So Your Honours can -- it's just to assist Your Honours in

15     following the video and the different persons that are identified on

16     there as being victims of this incident.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  Progressively, then, it is the images

18     seen on the exhibit video or DVD, progressively, it's each of the images

19     of bodies that are seen on that film separately on a still shot with a

20     separate number, which is shown on this list, and then there is a

21     description and occasionally a comment that the name is unknown or

22     another comment in the right-hand column.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  That is correct, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  And the extreme left-hand column is the timing

25     progressively through the filmed images.

Page 717

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  That is correct, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  We will receive that.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  P00291, Your Honours.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we now have 65 ter 02436.01 up on the screen.

 5     Should I repeat the number?  It's 02436.01.  Could we enlarge the

 6     original version of this document for the witness on the screen so he can

 7     see it.

 8        Q.   Sir, are you able to see the document there before you on your

 9     screen?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you recognize it?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Could you tell us what this document is?

14        A.   This is the list compiled by Afrim Xhemajli.  I asked him to give

15     me the list and he did give me the list when I left for Albania, together

16     with a video-tape.

17             On the left you can see the typed-up version of the list, while

18     on the right you see the list that was hand-written by Afrim Xhemajli.

19     You can see the people there given numbers.  The first column represents

20     the first row of graves and the people buried in that order.  The second

21     column is the second row, and the third column, the third row.  I

22     explained earlier why we did this.

23        Q.   I think you may have already explained this earlier, but just to

24     clarify, how were the different victims identified, the different persons

25     who appeared on this list?

Page 718

 1        A.   Well, for practical reasons, on the first column you have the

 2     names of the people who were buried in the first row.  And I can't

 3     remember the order the people were buried, but I think the first row had

 4     48 graves.  The people could identify the victims once again after the

 5     war, if need be.

 6        Q.   Sorry, if I may interrupt you there.  Maybe I should be clear on

 7     my question.  Who identified the victims?  Who provided the names?

 8        A.   The victims were identified by their relatives, the relatives of

 9     the people who lay killed there.  If, by any chance, no relatives were

10     present, then people who knew them identified them, such as friends or

11     acquaintances, but most of the people were identified by relatives or

12     family members.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this exhibit at this

15     stage.  This is 02436.01.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00292, Your Honours.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Loshi, you have already explained what happened on the

20     31st and 1st of April when these persons were buried.  For how long did

21     you remain in Izbica after the funeral took place?

22        A.   After the funeral took place, I stayed there for about three or

23     four days, and then I wanted to leave Izbica together with the tape.  I

24     went towards Llausha and then from there to Prekaz, and then I reached

25     Cicavica, which is a village, early in the morning.  Half an hour later,

Page 719

 1     the Serb forces surrounded the village so I had to leave.  And that was

 2     when I realised that the whole area I had passed through had been

 3     surrounded by the Serbs.

 4             So I traveled for four more days, mainly at night.  During the

 5     day, I hid in the valleys or whenever I could.  Then I had to return to

 6     Izbica because I couldn't get any further.

 7             I left Izbica on the 4th or 5th of May; I can't remember the

 8     exact date.  But at that time I went to Albania.  So in Izbica, I stayed

 9     for about a month after the massacre, with the exception of those four or

10     five days when I attempted to leave but I couldn't leave.

11        Q.   What did you do with the tape that we just viewed earlier?

12        A.   The tape we watched earlier, that is an original tape we recorded

13     on the 31st of March and 1st of April.  Three or four days later -- well,

14     of course, the tape was in the hands of the owner of the camera, and I

15     think he wanted to keep the camera and the tape in order to make other

16     private recordings.  So later I asked him if he could give me the tape so

17     that we could record from his tape into a bigger VHS cassette.

18             That's what we did.  We found an electric generator on the 4th of

19     April, I think.  I took this VHS cassette, while the other cassette was

20     in his camera.  Then he went to Albania and left the camera and the

21     cassette in a hole in the ground, while the big cassette, the VHS one,

22     was with me and I took that to Albania with me.

23             I wanted to give it to somebody, but I couldn't contact anyone

24     because it was a very difficult time.  The Serb forces had occupied

25     Drenice.  Everywhere there were Serb forces and I couldn't meet anyone.

Page 720

 1             A month later when I decided to leave for Albania, I heard that

 2     Sefedin Thaqi had left his camera where he had hidden it before.  At that

 3     time I personally was living at his house together with Demush Dragaj.

 4     That was his son-in-law --

 5        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you, just for the sake of time, to be brief

 6     in your answers and concentrate on the questions I'm asking.

 7             Now, you've told us that you went to Albania in early May, after

 8     spending about a month in Izbica.  What did you do with the tape, the one

 9     that we viewed today?

10        A.   I was trying to explain how I took Sefedin's tape, because I

11     looked for it and I found the camera and the cassette.  I took the

12     smaller cassette where he made the original recording on and I took it

13     with me.

14             I watched it again, and I saw that it had on it most of the

15     recording that we had made that day.  Part of it had been erased because

16     he had recorded on it, but most of the tape was intact.  So I took it to

17     Albania.

18             My cassette, I left it in Istog's mountains, and it would be

19     dangerous for me to take it with me.  It was too big to take away with

20     me, so I went to Albania with a smaller cassette and I took it to the

21     provisional Kosovo government, which was based in Tirana at the time.  I

22     handed it over to them in order for them to distribute it to the major

23     international institutions, and that's what they did.

24             One copy was sent to the White House, one copy to NATO, and I

25     gave a copy to CNN.  Several copies were made.  I gave a copy to CNN, but

Page 721

 1     then later I gave copies to BBC and other media.

 2             On the 19th of May I handed over the original cassette to the

 3     ICTY in their office in Tirana, while the larger VHS cassette remained in

 4     the mountains of Istog under the care of a villager there.

 5        Q.   Now, you said you handed copies to several persons, including the

 6     press.  Do you have any idea whether your video was broadcasted at the

 7     time by the press?

 8        A.   Yes, it was broadcast by various media.  I remember two

 9     interviews I had with CNN personally, and CNN broadcast them by mid-May,

10     14th or 15th of May.  James Rubin, who was the spokesman for the White

11     House at the time, also held a press conference on this video-tape.  I

12     also think that NATO's spokesman held a press conference as well on the

13     topic of this cassette.

14        Q.   Now, did you return to Kosovo once the war was over?

15        A.   Yes, I did return.  The war ended on the 10th of June when NATO

16     forces entered Kosova.  At that time my family was in Albania, in Tirana.

17     I returned to Kosova on the 22nd of June.  I returned alone.  My family

18     remained in Tirana.

19        Q.   And did you return to the village of Izbica?

20        A.   Yes.  On the second day after I arrived, I went to Izbica.  I

21     went to Drenice, to the areas where I had been earlier.  I saw some

22     villagers, how they were returning to their villages.  I saw the houses

23     that had been burned down and I also saw that the Serb forces had

24     withdrawn, were not there any longer.

25             I went to Izbica because I had heard that the Serb forces

Page 722

 1     sometime in May, by the end of May, had entered Izbica and had taken the

 2     bodies with them.  So I wanted to go and see with my own eyes what was

 3     left there to see and record.

 4             I went there with a camera and recorded the place where the

 5     massacre had occurred, where the burial had taken place on the 31st of

 6     March and 1st of April, 1999, and then where I found the bodies that had

 7     been raised by the Serb forces.  I also recorded people who described the

 8     situation to me.  This was done on the 23rd of June by mid-day, sometime

 9     around mid-day.

10        Q.   Just going back a little, you said that you went to Izbica

11     because you had heard that the Serb forces had exhumed the bodies.  Who

12     did you hear this from, if you recall.

13        A.   When I was in Albania, I stayed at the office of the Kosova Radio

14     and Television in Tirana, and we heard that information there.  I'm not

15     sure who said that first, but I heard that it was said there.

16             On the 22nd of June, I entered Kosova, and on the 23rd when I

17     went to Izbica, the villagers, all of them told me that the Serb forces

18     had entered the area and had exhumed the bodies and taken the bodies to

19     Serbia.

20             I can't remember a name now because everybody was speaking about

21     that at the time.  I did not take down any notes about the names of

22     people who were giving me this information.  It was an information that

23     was known by all.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  I wish to play another video, and this is the new

25     exhibit that we were discussing at the beginning of the session.  It's

Page 723

 1     05243, and it's just a clip from that.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  We can see the next -- the following clip, as well.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:

 6        Q.   Do you recognize those images, Mr. Loshi?

 7        A.   Yes.  These are the images I spoke about, images that I recorded

 8     with my own camera in July -- in the 23rd -- on the 23rd of June, 1999.

 9     This is the image and the recording of the razed graves.  You could see

10     bits and pieces left there, such as wood planks and other wooden objects

11     where the names of the persons had been written.  They had taken the

12     bodies and then tried to raze and -- level the land.  You could see the

13     gloves that the Serb forces had used while exhuming the bodies and then

14     taking them away.

15        Q.   When we watched the video earlier of the funeral, we saw where

16     the bodies had been buried.  Just to clarify, is this the same location

17     we saw earlier or is this a different location?

18        A.   It is exactly the same location.  So we saw the burial site in

19     the beginning, but now these graves are not there in their usual shape.

20     The bodies have been removed and the ground has been leveled.  So there

21     are no graves there anymore in the last image we saw.

22        Q.   Do you know or have any information as to where these bodies were

23     taken?

24        A.   I don't have an exact precise information.  The villagers saw

25     them removing the bodies.  Some said that they were taken in the

Page 724

 1     direction of Skenderaj, some in the direction of Mitrovica, some in the

 2     direction of Kline.  These are all words that I heard from villagers.  It

 3     is possible that these bodies were taken to all these directions, but

 4     that I don't know.  I received this information from the villagers.  So

 5     some said they were taken in the direction of Kline and some others in

 6     the direction of Skenderaj, which are two opposite directions.  However,

 7     it is possible that the Serb forces took these bodies to both directions

 8     because there were many bodies there.

 9        Q.   Now, you told us earlier that among the victims there were three

10     of your relatives, and you've given us their names.  Were the bodies of

11     your relatives ever recovered?

12        A.   These bodies were removed together with the other bodies.  I left

13     Kosova, and in these ten years since this occurred I don't have much

14     information.  I think just one body was found, Sami's body, but again,

15     I'm not sure whether it was recovered or not.  But I don't know the

16     location where it was recovered.  Some of the bodies were found in

17     Serbia; some were found in other parts of Kosova.  So the bodies of the

18     victims of Izbica were taken to different locations.

19        Q.   Now, you told us that you filmed these images we saw -- just saw

20     in June of 1999.  Where has this video-tape been for the last nine --

21     nine-and-so years?

22        A.   I made many recordings.  When I entered Kosova, I stayed there

23     for ten days.  Part of my documentation remained with my brother in

24     Kosova.  He lives in Mitrovica now.  When I came to The Hague, I

25     requested that this tape to be delivered to me here.  So I found a way

Page 725

 1     for them to bring me the tape here.  And this tape had not been given to

 2     the Tribunal or any other person or organisation until now.

 3        Q.   And when did you get it back from your brother?  You said when

 4     you came to The Hague, but when did that happen?

 5        A.   I received it in The Hague last Thursday.  I don't remember the

 6     date, but it was last Thursday that I received it.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this exhibit - it's

 9     05243 - into evidence.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received -- sorry, Mr. Djordjevic.

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Judges, I was opposed to the

12     admission of this evidence because it goes beyond the summary of this

13     witness's evidence, according to 65 ter, and primarily because the

14     Defence was not informed in good time and adequately.  Many issues are

15     raised here - authenticity, time of recording - and there is no

16     explanation why this has not been disclosed to any organisation for ten

17     years, not to the Tribunal.  That's why we oppose the admission of this

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20             Ms. Kravetz.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, this information is in the 65 ter

22     summary, if I may direct Your Honours to a paragraph that says:

23             "After the war the witness returned to Izbica and visited the

24     site.  He discovered that during the war the bodies had been removed from

25     the grave-sites."

Page 726

 1             I think that paragraph gives sufficient notice to the fact -- to

 2     the evidence that the witness has just given about his return to Izbica.

 3             This issue was also discussed with the witness during his

 4     examination in the Milutinovic case, and my learned colleague has a copy

 5     of the transcript where that is referred to.  The witness was

 6     specifically asked by the Presiding Judge for this video-tape, and as I

 7     had indicated at the start of the session, we had made efforts to obtain

 8     it earlier but were unable to do so because it wasn't in the possession

 9     of the witness.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Anything further, Mr. Djordjevic?

11             The video-clip will be received.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  No, thank you, Your Honour.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P00293, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  I had understood that you had nothing further to

15     say when you remained seated, but you were probably reading,

16     Mr. Djordjevic, what was being said.  Sorry about that.

17             While we have paused at that point, Ms. Kravetz, can I ask you to

18     clarify one matter which we dealt with a little time ago.  That's

19     Exhibit P292, which is the list of bodies that were buried that was

20     prepared by Afrim Xhemajli, if I understood the witness correctly.  What

21     we saw on the screen appeared to be only 81 identified bodies.  Did we

22     see the full exhibit, or are there more?

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  If I just may have a moment, Your Honour, and just

24     to indicate, I think Your Honour's referring to Exhibit 2436.01 --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm referring to Exhibit P292 in this trial, but

Page 727

 1     you've given the 65 ter number.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'm sorry, yes.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I'm informed that the version in

 5     e-court is missing a page.  The exhibit has two pages, in fact, and it

 6     seems that the second page hasn't made it onto e-court.  So with your

 7     leave, we will seek to rectify that and upload the second page, which is

 8     not in the e-court system at the moment.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  I have just been shown the full exhibit, which

10     includes the third column, and the third column contains the missing 46

11     bodies.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.  My case manager just --

13             JUDGE PARKER:  I had done my sums, and we had 46 unmentioned,

14     unidentified bodies of the 127 the witness had mentioned.  But it's all

15     contained in this third column, so there is no problem anymore.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.  My case manager just

17     advised me that the full exhibit is in e-court, in fact.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that, Ms. Kravetz.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for this

21     witness at this stage.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we have a short break?

23             JUDGE PARKER:  You would like to go outside for a few moments,

24     would you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, for two or three minutes.

Page 728

 1     That would be all.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness may be shown from the courtroom and

 3     brought back as soon as he is available, and while that is happening,

 4     Mr. Djordjevic can prepare.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  I would mention for the transcript that at page

 7     46, lines 20 and 23, Mr. Djordjevic is recorded as having sought a break.

 8     It was in fact the witness.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic will now ask some questions of you,

11     Doctor.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Loshi.  My name is Dragoljub

14     Djordjevic, Defence attorney for the accused Vlastimir Djordjevic.  I

15     just wish to say that Mr. Djordjevic and I are not related.  That would

16     not have been allowed according to the code of ethics for Defence counsel

17     before this Tribunal, but still, I wanted to mention it.

18             Now I will ask you some questions as Defence counsel for

19     Mr. Djordjevic concerning your evidence earlier today.  We heard when you

20     were born and where you were born.  I want to ask you, are you married

21     and do you have children?  If so, how many?

22        A.   Yes, I'm married, and I have three children.

23        Q.   I'd like to know if you have a brother or brothers or sisters.

24     How many siblings do you have?

25        A.   I have one brother and six sisters.

Page 729

 1        Q.   I'd like to know, is that the brother who you said lived in

 2     Kosovska Mitrovica?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Was he, too, a member of the KLA?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Would you tell me, where did your brother live in 1998 and early

 7     1999?

 8        A.   Up to the moment our house was burnt, we all lived there

 9     together.  But after our house was burned - and this was sometime in

10     June, I don't remember the date, June 1998 - my brother, my father, my

11     wife, my children, and my mother moved to Prishtina, and they remained

12     there throughout the time when the war ended.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When did you graduate from medical school at the

14     university, and where?

15        A.   I graduated from the faculty of medicine in 1989, in Prishtina.

16        Q.   When did you find employment after graduation, and where did you

17     work?

18        A.   I was employed three or four months after I graduated.  I

19     graduated in June 1989, and I started working on the 13th of November,

20     1989, in the clinic in Skenderaj.  I worked in the vaccination department

21     and finished the internship that was obligatory.  And from there I moved

22     to Runik in 1999 -- correction, 1990.  And I worked in Runik ever since.

23     It was an outpatient clinic where I worked throughout this time.

24        Q.   May I conclude that you worked until June 1999 in Runik, and

25     which Runik -- or did you continue working until the moment you joined

Page 730

 1     the KLA?

 2        A.   Not in 1999, as you said, but 1998, a year earlier.  What you

 3     said is correct, so I worked there until 1998 at Runik until sometime in

 4     June, and then I went to Leqina and Turiqevc.  There was another

 5     outpatient clinic if Turiqevc, similar to the one in Runik, and that is

 6     where I worked.  So we were under the management of the same medical

 7     centre of Skenderaj.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Your father, your wife, and three children, if I

 9     understood correctly, in June 1998 left Padaliste for the reasons you

10     stated and moved to Kosovska Mitrovica.  With whom were they staying

11     there?

12        A.   They just over-nighted in Mitrovica.  I took them there

13     personally to my uncle's house.  The following day, they proceeded for

14     Prishtina, and that's where they lived afterwards.  So a day after I took

15     them to Mitrovica in June 1998 - I don't remember the day - they left for

16     Prishtina where they stayed the entire time until the bombing started.

17        Q.   I'd like to hear from you where, with whom did they stay in

18     Pristina?

19        A.   They went to Prishtina seeking shelter, like all the other

20     Albanians at that time.  At the time they didn't know the owner of the

21     house.  There was an emergency group in Prishtina that directed the

22     refugees to households.  They lived in the Velanija neighbourhood in

23     Prishtina, in the house of Zanel Sokoli.  This was the name of the owner.

24        Q.   Thank you.  The next thing I'd like to know is, did you leave

25     after them for Pristina as well?

Page 731

 1        A.   I don't understand your question.  What do you mean "after them"?

 2     As I said, I took them by car to Mitrovica, and from Mitrovica they went

 3     to Prishtina by bus.

 4        Q.   It's perhaps interpretation.  I asked you, Did you go with them

 5     to Pristina after you spent the night in Mitrovica?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Why did you not go with your family?

 8        A.   I didn't go with them to Prishtina.

 9        Q.   Why?

10        A.   I didn't go with them to Prishtina because there was no need to.

11     I was working as a doctor in the Drenice area.  I had my patients, and

12     that was an area where I was the only doctor for some time.  There were

13     cases when I have people to assist them when the time was calmer.  But

14     when the war escalated, there was no help.

15             So I didn't see any need to accompany them to Prishtina.  They

16     just boarded the bus from Mitrovica to Prishtina.  However, there was a

17     need for me to take them to Mitrovica because the roads were full of Serb

18     forces, so I didn't want my family to suffer on the check-points of the

19     Serb forces.  I'm speaking about the part of the trip to Mitrovica.

20     However, from Mitrovica to Prishtina, there was regular traffic and

21     movement of buses and vehicles.

22        Q.   The question I asked you was in fact related to the fact that

23     it's normal for a family member to be with his family, and we'll agree

24     that your family left the place where you lived because of extraordinary

25     circumstances that you claim occurred then.  That's why I had asked this

Page 732

 1     question.

 2             So you stayed in Lecina, if I'm not mistaken, in the house of a

 3     friend, Demush Dragaj; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  My next question will be about your friend, Demush

 6     Dragaj.  Is he related to Shaban Dragaj and Mustafa Dragaj?

 7        A.   No, it's not the same family.  I think that Shaban Dragaj and

 8     Demush are closer relatives, while Mustafa might be a distant relative.

 9     However, Shaban and his family lives in Mitrovica, but earlier his father

10     used to live in Leqina.  Shaban didn't live in Leqina.  However, Mustafa

11     and Demush lived in Leqina the whole time, but they are not like the same

12     family.  They are kind of distant relatives but not the same family.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Was Demush Dragaj a member of the KLA?

14        A.   No, he wasn't.  Later on when I returned from Tirana to Izbica,

15     when you see me speaking on the tape, the person holding the camera is

16     Demush Dragaj.  He had put on the uniform either during the time when I

17     was not in Kosova or after the war.  However, during the time I was in

18     Kosova, I didn't see him in uniform.  What happened afterwards, that I

19     don't know, I don't have any information about that.  But when I returned

20     to Kosova later on, I saw him dressed in a KLA uniform.

21        Q.   May we then conclude that at that time he was a member of the

22     KLA?

23        A.   For the time I was in Leqina during the war, he never was a

24     member of the KLA.  After the liberation, he had a uniform on, but that

25     does not mean that he was a member of the KLA.  Many people used to wear

Page 733

 1     uniforms after the war.  He was just a merchant.  He supplied the

 2     population with food and other goods.  Even during the war he was a

 3     merchant and he was not involved in the KLA.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement of September 2001 you state that

 5     you joined the team of medical workers in Turicevac village.

 6             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 2435, a statement

 7     from 23rd to 25th September, page 3, para 3; and in B/C/S, it's page 2,

 8     para 9, line 3; in Albanian, page 3, para 1.

 9        Q.   Could you tell me when that happened, that you joined the team of

10     medical workers in Turicevac village?

11        A.   As I already mentioned earlier, in June I spoke to the director

12     of the health clinic in Skenderaj and they told me, There's nothing for

13     you to do here; there are no more patients here in the area, so we don't

14     want to you come and work here.  At that time I left, the house was burnt

15     down, so the conditions were such that I could not work in Runik anymore.

16             I phoned the director of the clinic in Skenderaj and he said to

17     me that I could work in the clinic of Turiqevc where the medical team

18     was, but there were no other doctors.  I was the only doctor.  There were

19     medical nurses, medical helpers.  There was another custodian, but no

20     other doctor.  It seems that when I was working in Runik, no doctor was

21     working in Turiqevc.  The population had gone to Izbica and the area

22     surrounding it.  So because there were so many people there, it made

23     sense for me to stay there and work as a doctor.

24        Q.   I'd like to know when that happened.

25        A.   In June, June 1998.

Page 734

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Regarding this team, as you call it, of medical

 2     workers in Turicevac village, I hear now that you were the only doctor.

 3     Did you organise the work of this infirmary or this health centre, or

 4     what do you call it, in Turicevac?

 5        A.   I wouldn't say that I organised the work.  People were working

 6     there before.  I just went there and started working as a doctor.

 7        Q.   At that time did you receive any income for your work in

 8     Turicevac?

 9        A.   Yes.  I received my salary, yes, all the time.

10        Q.   From whom?

11        A.   I received the salary from the health centre in Skenderaj.  I

12     think the payroll was prepared in Mitrovica and then it was sent to

13     Skenderaj and from there to wherever we were working.  We were there

14     working under the Serb administration, and that's where I took my salary

15     from.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Further in the statement you say, Doctor, that you

17     opened small infirmaries in several villages in that area.  Can you tell

18     us in which villages you opened those small infirmaries in the statement

19     that I just quoted?

20        A.   Yes.  In Leqina where I was living, in the order of Demush

21     Dragaj, I worked from there.  I had some medicaments in that place.

22     There was a medical worker working with me at the time.  Another centre

23     was at the house of Zaim Bajrami, who I mentioned earlier.  He worked in

24     Izbica.  So these were the two places where we had the health centres.

25             I wouldn't call them clinics, just small centres.  There was one

Page 735

 1     in Turiqevc, and they were there to help people, patients mostly, who

 2     were forced to move from one area to another.  We had to be there to

 3     offer our help as doctors.

 4        Q.   Did I understand you correctly that even after that you remained

 5     the only doctor in that area?

 6        A.   Yes.  I would say I was the only doctor.  Later on, another

 7     doctor came.  He was not working for the health centre, but he wanted to

 8     work.  He had graduated during the time when we had problems with the

 9     Serb administration, in those ten years.  I won't mention here all the

10     problems we had.

11             So this doctor had not graduated during the time that the Serb

12     administration was in full force in Kosova.  He had graduation -- had

13     graduated during the time that we had conflicts with Kosova -- with the

14     Serbian government, and his diploma was not recognized.  But he wanted to

15     work and offer his help at the time.

16        Q.   What was the name of your colleague?

17        A.   Fatmir Fazliu, and he was killed later by the Serb forces.

18        Q.   Could you please tell me as far as Mr. Fatmir Fazliu is

19     concerned, before he died you said that he worked as a doctor; is that

20     right?  And did he receive any kind of a salary or remuneration?

21     Apparently, it was not from the Serbian government for the work that he

22     did.

23        A.   No, Fatmir did not receive any money.  He just was willing to

24     work as a volunteer, and he was not paid for what he did.

25        Q.   Where was he from, if you know?  Could you tell us, where did he

Page 736

 1     live?

 2        A.   He was from Turiqevc, lived in Turiqevc.  He was the only son of

 3     Bajram.  His father was called Bajram, meaning Bajram Fazliu.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell me, so we're talking about the

 5     village of Turicevac.  This is where this clinic or infirmary was that

 6     you set up, or, rather, that you said you joined the medical team that

 7     was providing medical services there.  At that time when you came to

 8     Turicevac and from that moment on, how were you able to obtain drugs and

 9     medical supplies that were necessary to provide medical services to the

10     population?

11        A.   We did communicate with a health centre in Skenderaj, and that's

12     where we got the medical supplies from; for example, syringes and

13     injections, and also tourniquets to dress wounds and so on.  Part of the

14     medical supplies came from international humanitarian organisations, such

15     as CARE, but there were other organisations as well whose names I can't

16     remember now.

17             So we were supplied with medication both by the health centre in

18     Skenderaj and the humanitarian organisations.  Sometimes these

19     organisations provided medical workers as well to help us and the

20     population.

21        Q.   Let me ask you two more questions about Turicevac.  The first one

22     is:  did your team of medical workers, the team that you worked with,

23     provide medical assistance to the members of the KLA?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  My second question:  Did your medical team in

Page 737

 1     Turicevac treat members of other ethnic communities, including Serbs?

 2        A.   There were no Serbs in Turiqevc.  This is an area where Serbs

 3     have never lived.  I've never heard of any Serbs living in Turiqevc.

 4        Q.   The reason why I ask you this is because I know, it's my personal

 5     knowledge, that among members of other ethnic communities there were

 6     numerous refugees.  And if some of them had been in that area, that is

 7     why I asked you this.  So no, your answer is no; is that correct?  Thank

 8     you.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, I will have to

10     apologise to the Trial Chamber.  I provided the wrong reference in the

11     transcript that I referred to from the 65 ter.  It's not 2435 but 2536,

12     page 10 in the English version and page 5 in the Albanian version.  So I

13     will now continue with my questions.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  You asked the question

15     and did not allow me to answer.  You said that there were other refugees

16     there from other ethnicities.  I did not answer that question.

17             I'm saying that there were no refugees from other ethnicities

18     there.  We helped everybody who was there.  If there had been any Serbs

19     there, I would have helped them as well.  I have treated Serbs in Runik

20     and wherever I worked.  I went to their homes.  I had good relations with

21     them as a doctor.  However, during the war, as I said, I went to

22     Turiqevc, and when I worked in Turiqevc, there were no Serbs there.

23             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  My next question pertains to the fact that

25     you said that from June 1998 you worked using your mobile phone as a

Page 738

 1     reporter for an Albanian TV station, TV-SH, from the area of Izbica.  In

 2     your statement from September 2001, you say that you worked for that

 3     radio station, and in the statement that you gave in the Milosevic case,

 4     in the evidence that you gave at page, I think, 9441, paragraphs 13 and

 5     14, you say that you worked as a reporter for Kosovo Television.

 6             Now, let us clear this up.  Did you report for the TV-SH, an

 7     Albanian station, for the Kosovo station, or for both TV channels?  Could

 8     you please tell us, what is the correct version?

 9        A.   The correct version is, and the truth is because there are no

10     versions, that I worked voluntarily for the Kosova Radio and Television -

11     that was based in Tirana - not for the TV-SH.  Because the premises of

12     the Kosova Television were occupied by Serb forces, the workers had left

13     the place and had gone to Albania.  People who worked there in Prishtina

14     were lackeys of Milosevic, so we did not cooperate with that office.  In

15     Tirana, there was the Kosova Radio and Television office.  They had a

16     half-an-hour news edition every day.  I cooperated with them.  I helped

17     them but as a volunteer.

18        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  A volunteer.  That means that you were not

19     paid.  Did I understand that correctly?

20        A.   No, I was not paid.

21        Q.   Thank you.  On the 19th of May, 1999, you gave a statement to an

22     investigator of this Tribunal in Tirana, and you confirmed on that

23     occasion that the statement had been read out to you in the Albanian

24     language and that it contained everything that you recounted, to the best

25     of your knowledge and recollection.  Do you remember whether you signed

Page 739

 1     each and every page of the statement that you gave in Tirana?  That's the

 2     19th of May, 1999.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In the statement at page 2, paragraph 3, in the B/C/S version -

 5     it's the same reference in the Albanian language - you said yesterday:

 6             "On the 18th of May, 1999, I visited the office of the ICTY in

 7     Tirana, Albania, and to Jonathan Tait-Harris, one of the investigators, I

 8     handed over the original version of the video-tape that I used when I

 9     recorded the aftermath of what I would call the massacre in Izbica."

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I will read more

11     slowly.  Should I repeat?

12        Q.   You said yesterday:

13             "On the 18th of May, 1999, I visited the office of the ICTY in

14     Tirana, Albania, and I gave an investigator, Jonathan Tait-Harris, the

15     original version of the video-type I used when I recorded the after-math

16     of what I will call the massacre in Izbica."

17             And then at the same page, paragraph 2; 6 in the B/C/S language,

18     you say:

19             "I made the video-tape myself.  I recorded it myself on the 31st

20     of March, 1999, and this is the original copy that has been in my

21     possession from the time when I recorded it until now."

22             The reference for the pages is the same in the English and the

23     Albanian versions.

24             Now, my question to you is:  Why didn't you say then that it was

25     actually recorded by your friend, Sefedin Thaqi, and you did not even

Page 740

 1     mention his name on that occasion?

 2        A.   I don't remember why I did not tell him.  It seems I said that I

 3     made the recording; however, I considered that that was mainly what I had

 4     done.  In the socialist times, we were used to this idea that the

 5     journalist goes with the cameraman.  And the journalist is responsible

 6     for everything.  The cameraman does whatever the journalist tells him to

 7     do.

 8             However, later on, when they asked me more detailed questions, I

 9     explained how the situation was.  As you can see, this is a very short

10     statement, the one that was given at the time.  There was no special

11     reason why I did not provide the name of Sefedin Thaqi at the time.

12        Q.   Do I understand it correctly that the same reasons were behind

13     what you said in the statement that you gave on the 23rd and the 25th of

14     September, 2001, where you say, "My part of the video-recording begins

15     with the men digging the trenches in Izbica on the 31st of March, 1999."

16             And it reads, 00600; the English is at page 6, para 8, and the

17     Albanian, page 6, para 5.  And you said that it was your recording,

18     although you knew at the time that you did not actually record the

19     footage.  Were you prompted by the same reasons again?

20        A.   No.  There is another reason.  Sefedin Thaqi left his home.  At

21     his home he had a relative who had been killed, and he recorded his trip

22     to Izbica.  I wanted the camera and the tape to record the massacre in

23     Izbica.  That's why the cassette that I provided begins with the graves

24     being opened, being dug in Izbica.  I did not mention there the part that

25     Sefedin Thaqi had recorded on his own when I was not there.

Page 741

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now tell us what happened to Mr. Sefedin

 2     Thaqi?  Where is he today?  Is he still alive?  What he's doing, what he

 3     was doing at the time, just very briefly.

 4        A.   Sefedin Thaqi at the time was working as a teacher.  He worked in

 5     a school.  He was a civilian all the time.  He never was a member of the

 6     KLA.  I think he's alive, and he must be working as a teacher in Kosova.

 7     I'm not sure because I don't live in Kosova now.  When I go to Kosova, I

 8     try to meet as many people as possible, the ones that I know, my

 9     relatives and so on.  I met him once, and as far as I know he still works

10     as a teacher.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let me move on to the part that was dealt with

12     by my colleague Ms. Kravetz at the end of your examination-in-chief.

13     That's the list of the bodies that was done by Afrim Xhemajli, as you

14     told us.  Is it true that Afrim gave you the list of the bodies that he

15     made, actually, that he did it when the bodies were buried?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the counsel please

17     repeat the date when the list was handed over to the witness.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   In mid-April 1999.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Is it true that in fact your first contact with the investigators

22     of this Tribunal happened on the 19th of May, 1999, in Tirana?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Why did you not hand this list over during the first contact that

25     you had with the investigators of the Tribunal, in other words, on the

Page 742

 1     19th of May, 1999?  Because we can see from your previous answer that you

 2     had had this list for a month before that, and let me remind you that you

 3     did it three days later.

 4        A.   I don't understand the question.  Could you clarify it?  I do

 5     have an answer, but I think I want a clearer question.

 6        Q.   Very briefly, why didn't you hand the list over, the list of

 7     persons identified -- who were identified and who had allegedly died in

 8     the massacre that was perpetrated by the Serbian forces in the village of

 9     Izbica?

10        A.   I met Jonathan Harris and gave him the tape.  This was the first

11     meeting.  You're saying the 18th.  I accept it.  It must have been the

12     18th.  However, I did not have the list on me on that day.  I think I

13     went back the next day and I met another investigator, because I had

14     promised Jonathan that I would bring the list but I did not have it on me

15     when I met Jonathan.

16             So I think the next day I met another investigator; his name was

17     Kevin, and I gave the list to him.  There was no other reason.  It was

18     simply because the list was in the place where I was living and I did not

19     have it on me when I met Jonathan.  I mentioned the list and I said to

20     them, to Jonathan, that I will bring it tomorrow.

21        Q.   Very well.  I will have to go back to the issue of Sefedin Thaqi,

22     the teacher who actually recorded the footage of what you say was based

23     on your ideas and the way you asked him to.  Why is it that it took you

24     two years -- that you told investigators, I think it was in the Canada at

25     the Royal Canadian Mounted Police headquarters, why did it take you two

Page 743

 1     years to say that it was -- that you told Sefedin Thaqi to do that?

 2        A.   As I explained earlier when I gave my statement in Tirana, that

 3     was a very short statement.  The investigator didn't ask me many

 4     questions, so we left it to that, the short statement, as you can see.

 5     However, the other investigator, Malvin Dagsland, who came to Canada, he

 6     stayed there for a longer time, asked me detailed questions, and I

 7     answered his questions.  So in providing him with a detailed answer, I

 8     also provided him with this information.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time, Mr. Djordjevic, for a

10     break?

11             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will agree with

12     you.  It is.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We will have the second break now and

14     resume at five minutes past 1.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Djordjevic.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I will now continue where I left off.  A few brief questions on

21     your statement -- rather, on your evidence earlier today.

22             You said you had joined the KLA and you stated why and when.

23     There is a passage in your earlier testimony in the Milosevic case and

24     the Milutinovic case, as well, especially the part when they asked you:

25     Is it true you were a local commander of the KLA?  And I mean Padaliste.

Page 744

 1     And I don't think that comment is correct, but I'll have to ask you once

 2     again.  Do you stand by that statement that you had never been a

 3     commander or anything like that even on a local level in the KLA?

 4        A.   Yes, I stand by that statement.  I don't remember ever saying

 5     that or someone ever asking me about that.  But if this is your question,

 6     my answer is no, I never was a commander.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Considering that you are a doctor and that Kosovo is,

 8     subjectively speaking, a very small area, I suppose you knew other people

 9     in your profession, both Serbian and Albanian and maybe of other

10     ethnicities, working in Kosovo.  Would I be right?

11        A.   Yes.  Not that many were doctors because there weren't many

12     doctors.  In Drenice, there were not so many -- there was no single

13     Serbian doctor.  A nurse came later.  She worked in the village of Banja

14     that was inhabited by Serbs, but she worked there for quite some short

15     time.  I just met her once, perhaps.  But as for other medical staff,

16     yes, I did have contacts of this kind, and I knew these people.

17        Q.   To be quite clear, I was asking you about doctors working in

18     Kosovo, physicians working in Kosovo at the time.  Did you know your

19     colleagues, I mean, in Pristina, in Mitrovica, Srbica, Pec, other towns

20     in Kosovo?  Did you know your colleagues, doctors?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I'd like to know if you know, and I can see that you are rather

23     well informed, do you know that two of your colleagues, Albanian doctors,

24     were killed in the summer of 1998 in Pec?  Do you know about that case?

25        A.   In Peja?

Page 745

 1        Q.   Yes, yes.  Two ethnic Albanian doctors, your colleagues, medical

 2     doctors, do you know about that case?

 3        A.   It is possible that I've heard of this, but currently I don't

 4     remember.  If you give me their names, maybe I can help.  As I said, I

 5     might have had this information in the past, but I also mentioned that I

 6     lived in an area where the fighting was more intensive, developments were

 7     more intensive.  However, I don't remember this event in Peja.

 8        Q.   I'm not going to tell you their names.  I'm just going to say

 9     they are your colleagues, ethnic Albanians, because you said a moment ago

10     you knew all doctors in Kosovo.  So I'm surprised you didn't hear about

11     this case, when KLA members killed those two colleagues of yours in the

12     summer of 1998 because they had refused to join the movement.  We will

13     present evidence before this Court concerning this case but not today.

14     I'm rather surprised, as I said, that you have not heard of this

15     incident, which is unusual.  Doctors are not killed every day, especially

16     at that time.

17        A.   It might sound unusual, but I really don't remember this.  And

18     when you say that the KLA killed them, I think that this was part of the

19     propaganda that was launched at that time.  I worked as a local doctor

20     and I didn't have information about what was going on in other areas.

21        Q.   I'm not going to question you anymore about this or draw

22     conclusions because that's not my job.

23             My next question has to do with members of the KLA.  Did members

24     of the KLA wear uniforms constantly or not?  Were they sometimes in

25     mufti?

Page 746

 1        A.   We should explain this issue in broader terms.  A short answer

 2     would be that some soldiers, a part of soldiers had uniforms and some

 3     others didn't.  Some who had uniforms would not wear them at all times.

 4     Why?  Because they would pass in more dangerous areas where they could be

 5     spotted by the Serb forces, or they would, for that matter, make the Serb

 6     forces occupy that area and retaliate with the Serbian population.  So

 7     some soldiers did have uniforms; some didn't.

 8             In broader terms, since it was impossible for all the KLA

 9     soldiers to have uniforms - this is due to financial reasons; there

10     weren't enough funds to provide each and every member with a weapon and a

11     uniform - so my answer would be that almost half of the KLA did not have

12     uniforms.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Would you say that nevertheless those who did not

14     wear uniforms and were still members of the KLA wore some emblems that

15     made them recognisable to other members of the KLA, be it in actions or

16     in areas where the KLA had control?  If there were such markings or

17     emblems, what were they?

18        A.   Those who had uniforms had the KLA emblem.  I think they wore it

19     on their right shoulder or left; that I don't know.  And those who didn't

20     have uniforms, they didn't have any emblems or symbols on them to

21     identify them as members.  They would wear civilian clothes.  Some would

22     have weapons, and so on.

23        Q.   Does that mean that there was a danger that during

24     street-to-street fighting between members of the KLA and what you refer

25     to as Serb forces, members of the KLA who were not clearly identified and

Page 747

 1     who were not known to uniformed KLA members could be injured or even

 2     killed in such fighting in which they participated, either carrying

 3     weapons or not?

 4        A.   There was no danger of this kind.  The KLA was organised into

 5     units, and usually those who wore uniforms moved together with those who

 6     didn't have uniforms.  So there weren't such groups that were outside any

 7     command, that could do whatever they pleased, and that could not identify

 8     other members.  This was impossible, because even if a member did not

 9     have a uniform, he would be part of a unit that contained soldiers with

10     uniforms.  And this unit would have a commander and everybody was held

11     responsible before this commander.

12             On the other side, there weren't open conflicts between the Serb

13     forces and the KLA in the area where I was active as a doctor, so this

14     possibility was non-existent in that area.

15        Q.   Now, speaking of uniforms, you, personally, as a member of the

16     KLA, were you more often in uniform than not?

17        A.   Most of the time I worked as a doctor, and during my work in the

18     outpatient clinic until 3 p.m., I would not wear a uniform.  Every now

19     and then, out of my own wish, I would put on the uniform because somehow

20     it helped to raise the level of morale among the population and among

21     other soldiers.  So I would wear the uniform when we spoke to the people,

22     where we had gatherings, on these occasions.  I was issued with a

23     uniform.  Although it was difficult to get a uniform, I was offered one

24     and I accepted it with pleasure.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that on the 29th of March, in Tusilje

Page 748

 1     there were members of the KLA who had stayed there to take care of their

 2     families.  Were they wearing uniforms then?

 3        A.   No, they weren't.  In other words, they could have gone to the

 4     spot wearing uniforms, but those who had uniforms had returned and those

 5     who had weapons had returned, and those who had remained there, they were

 6     without a weapon and without uniforms.

 7             So on the day when the Serb forces entered and gathered a part of

 8     the civilian population, there were KLA members amongst them and they

 9     were later released, either because the Serbian authorities didn't have

10     information on these people.  But they were released together with the

11     civilian population.  There were about 50 of them who were together with

12     the civilian population and who were later released.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I made a certain conclusion, and I'd like to ask you

14     if I'm correct.  From what we've just heard from you, I infer that the

15     members of the KLA very frequently mixed with the civilians, and it was

16     sometimes impossible to know who were civilians and who were members of

17     the KLA.  Would it be true to say that members of the KLA blended with

18     the civilians so that they were not identifiable to those who did not

19     know these people?  Would that be right?

20        A.   Partly, I would say.  When there were internal movements of the

21     population, the soldiers would accompany them to another area.  Some

22     would remain with the civilian population, but the majority of them would

23     withdraw.  So there wasn't a mixture of that great extent, as you say.

24     The soldiers would help their own families to move from one location to

25     another, and then most of them would withdraw and go to their original

Page 749

 1     units or locations.

 2        Q.   While we are still on the subject of uniforms, you mentioned Serb

 3     forces.  I'd like to know if you distinguish between the army and the

 4     police, and I mean in particular insignia, colour, appearance of the

 5     uniform.  If you know the difference between the two, can you explain

 6     what the difference is?

 7        A.   I was a member of the army.  I completed the service, so I know

 8     that they wear green uniforms.  When I say "member," I said member of the

 9     JNA.  I've also seen the uniforms of the Serb police while I resided

10     there.  It's a uniform of a greyish dark blue colour.  Maybe I'm not that

11     clear, but this was the difference between the two types of uniforms.

12        Q.   What about vehicles?

13        A.   Yes, I can tell the difference.  They are of different colours.

14     The vehicles of the police were always blue, to my recollection, dark

15     blue, while the military vehicles were green.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In your evidence today you mentioned tanks.  What

17     colour were the tanks?

18        A.   Green, the one that I saw, the one that was moving from Turiqevc

19     in the direction of Runik, the one that I saw in the morning of the 30th

20     of May, 1999.  It was early in the morning, and this tank was green.

21             On the same day yet later, I saw other vehicles, and what I

22     remember best was this tank, another tank of the same colour, and a

23     truck, also green colour.  They were at Vojnik, and they were moving in

24     the direction of Turiqevc and Broja.  So I waited for these vehicles to

25     move and then for me to go to Izbica.  When I was sure that there were no

Page 750

 1     longer Serb forces there, I set off, and from Kopiliq through Vojnik I

 2     went to Izbica.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can we then conclude that those were military

 4     vehicles?

 5        A.   Yes.  On the 30th of April, the ones that I saw were military

 6     vehicles.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You said that on the 30th of March in the evening,

 8     Tusilje was shelled and some people were killed.  As a result, some

 9     people were arrested.

10             First of all, I have to ask you where you have this information

11     from and who were the people who were arrested, if you know?  Who

12     arrested them, if they were indeed arrested?  And do you know the

13     reasons?  Perhaps this is a compound question, so I'll stop here.

14        A.   This is what I heard from others.  Around 50 or 60 persons were

15     arrested, maybe even more.  I don't remember the exact figure, but I

16     think about 50 or 60 were arrested and taken to the police station in

17     Skenderaj.  So since they were taken to the police station, it was the

18     Serb police that arrested them.

19             Later on I spoke with some of the people who had been arrested.

20     So they were arrested in Tushile by the Serbian police.  At the same time

21     the army was also present there in Tushile, and even some civilians said

22     that some army members treated the population very well.

23             I heard of a case when a young Serbian soldier cried because of

24     the situation that the civilians were in.  I heard of some figures, that

25     11 people had been killed and stuff like that, but I cannot confirm the

Page 751

 1     veracity of this information.

 2             Your question -- second question was why they were arrested; this

 3     I don't know.  Why they were released; this I don't know either.  This is

 4     an issue of the Serbian security services.  I know that amongst those who

 5     had been released there were KLA members.  I still don't know why they

 6     were released, whether they didn't have information on them.  This I

 7     don't know.  But the fact is that they were released and I don't know any

 8     more details about this.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that you heard but that you cannot

10     confirm the figure of 11 people who were killed.  I now want to ask you

11     this:  Were they killed in the shelling or were they murdered?  What

12     happened?

13        A.   I heard that they were killed during the shelling, but maybe this

14     information was not very accurate because there were killed people but

15     not as many as they said.  Later on I moved on from that area, and I

16     haven't been able since to ascertain what the number was.  I heard that

17     there was a smaller number of people that were killed, two or three or

18     so, but there was no execution.  So nothing like what happened in Izbica

19     happened in Tushile.  There was no execution, summary execution, by

20     firearms.

21        Q.   We will agree that you did not witness that event.  You were

22     telling us what you heard from those other persons; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  I only saw the forces accompanying the civilian population,

24     but I was not present at the area at that time.  I did not see the

25     killings.  I did not see any bodies in Tushile.

Page 752

 1        Q.   Can we also agree that the 30th of March is the day when you saw,

 2     as you say in your statement and confirm here, that from Gornji Obilic on

 3     that day green trucks were moving and Serb tanks, I think you mentioned,

 4     up to Vojnika, the Vojnika hill.

 5        A.   Yes.  From the Vojnik hill I saw the tanks and some vehicles, not

 6     many of them.  They were staying there during the morning and a little

 7     later as well.  Later on they moved on to Broja and Turiqevc.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  Are you sure that all those

 9     civilians - the majority of them were let go and you say that there were

10     KLA members among them - so that all of those civilians were arrested or

11     taken prisoner?

12        A.   I don't understand the question.  I'm not clear.  I don't see the

13     logic.  Is it sure that everybody was arrested?  I can't understand that.

14        Q.   Doctor, I'm not sure that you received the proper interpretation.

15     I asked you -- well, first of all, let me ask you this:  Do you see the

16     difference between being arrested and being taken prisoner?

17        A.   Yes.  These people were arrested but not imprisoned.  They were

18     held; I don't know for how long, maybe two or three hours, maybe half a

19     day, but later on they were all released.  At least that was the

20     information that I had.

21        Q.   I will not dwell on this issue or ask any more questions.

22             My next question:  You claim that on the 20th of March, 1999 --

23     the date changed to the 29th of March after your testimony in the

24     Milosevic case.  So we have first the 20th of March, that's in your

25     statement, and in the Milosevic case you testified that it was on the

Page 753

 1     29th of March.  So the members of the Serb army and police and

 2     paramilitaries surrounded Srbica, all together, and that in the course of

 3     those operations some 16 civilians were killed, you provide that exact

 4     figure, in the town itself.

 5             First of all, did you see that with your own eyes?  Are you an

 6     eye-witness?  That's my first question.

 7        A.   I will first answer the first question you asked.  I never said

 8     the 29th.  You might have a look again at my statement.  I always said

 9     the 20th and never the 29th.  And also, I was not an eye-witness of what

10     happened.  This is what I heard from other people, the patients who came

11     to me who had been injured.

12             I was working in Turiqevc, I gave them first aid, and they gave

13     me the names of the people who had died.  I had the list.  We went to

14     identify 14 people there, and when I reported for the Kosova Radio and

15     Television, I gave the names of the people who were killed on the 20th of

16     March, 1999, in Skenderaj.

17        Q.   So I will conclude that the date that we were talking about is

18     definitely the 20th of March, 1999.  Thank you.

19             Now, as regards Srbica, were there any direct -- was there any

20     direct fighting there between the Serb forces and the so-called Kosovo

21     Liberation Army?

22        A.   I'm not aware that there have been fightings, direct fightings.

23     This was also suggested to me by Milosevic himself and the Milutinovic

24     Defence, but I stand by the information I received at the time, that

25     there was not any confrontation going on between the KLA and the Serb

Page 754

 1     forces.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Do you know that on the 20th of March, 1999,

 3     at 5 a.m., members of the KLA attacked the police station in Srbica and

 4     that a police officer, Zoran Rakocevic, died of his injuries, the

 5     injuries he sustained in the attack?  He did not die the very same day

 6     but the next day in the Pristina hospital.  Another police officer, Zoran

 7     Gemajlovic, was wounded in the attack.  Or to put it quite simply, do you

 8     know that one Serb police officer was killed on that occasion and another

 9     seriously wounded?

10        A.   No, no, because as I told you, I did not know of any

11     confrontations between KLA and the Serb forces.  There were policemen who

12     were going from house to house, bringing the people out and executing

13     some of them.  Some of these people are still missing.  From a family, 16

14     people are still missing to this day.  This was suggested to me even in

15     the previous trials when I testified.  I don't know how the media -- the

16     Serb media covered that story or where they got it from, but I think it's

17     not possible.

18             I was not there.  I did not see anything like that.  That is the

19     truth.  I'm giving comments here on the basis of what I heard from people

20     who came from the place it happened, in Skenderaj.  Part of them went to

21     Turiqevc; part of them went to Izbica where most of the civilians were.

22     Some of them I treated because they had bruises; they had wounds on their

23     faces, legs, and arms.  I treated them and while I was treating them, I

24     asked them what happened and they told me.

25             When I'm saying that the KLA was not doing anything -- was not

Page 755

 1     active in the area, I asked people from the KLA what the developments

 2     were and I reported the information they gave to me to the Kosova Radio

 3     and Television.  So I did not have any such information that an attack of

 4     that sort happened in Skenderaj on the 20th of March, 1999.

 5        Q.   Is it true that on the 20th of March, 1999, you were still a

 6     doctor employed by the medical centre in Srbica, so for all intents and

 7     purposes you worked in Runik, as you told us, but you were paid by the

 8     medical centre?

 9        A.   To tell you the truth, I can't remember when the salary was

10     suspended, and it was not a big amount of money.  I can't remember the

11     last salary I received and when I received it.  I'm not sure.  I don't

12     remember when the last time was that I was paid.

13        Q.   But we will agree that you were still employed by the medical

14     centre in Srbica, the 20th of March, 1999.

15        A.   Yes, yes.  I was employed by the medical centre in Skenderaj all

16     the time, and I never resigned from that job officially.

17        Q.   And you still worked in Runik at that time.

18        A.   No, no.  In Turiqevc, not in Runik.  As I said, I left Runik

19     earlier, a year earlier.

20        Q.   What's the name of the director of the medical centre, or,

21     rather, what was his name on the 20th of March, 1999?

22        A.   The director of the medical centre in Skenderaj was called

23     Nexhmedin Hoti.  There was another department in Mitrovica where the

24     general director was.  He was a Serb.  I can't remember his name.

25        Q.   I don't care about the general director.  What is important for

Page 756

 1     me is whether you were in contact with your director or manager in

 2     Srbica.

 3        A.   No, I didn't have any contact.  There was no need to.  Whenever

 4     they could, they sent us supplies of medications but not direct contact.

 5     I did not go to Skenderaj because I thought I was at risk from the Serb

 6     forces.  I was a well-known person in the area.  I was operating -- I was

 7     working in the area where there was fighting, so I did not go to

 8     Skenderaj.  There was one contact only when we agreed that I would

 9     continue to work, but that was it.

10        Q.   We will agree, Dr. Loshi, that you, as a reporter of the KLA,

11     were not told by the KLA about its great success in the action in Srbica,

12     and we will agree that your director failed to inform you about the

13     medical response or treatment that was given to those three police

14     officers after they were wounded.

15        A.   Yes, I agree that I was not given this information by anybody

16     ever, and that's the reason why I think it did not happen.  Maybe they

17     were killed somewhere else in another development but then it was

18     ascribed to Skenderaj so that they would justify the police operation.

19     But I believe that did not happen in Skenderaj.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time, Mr. Djordjevic?  We've

21     gone overtime.

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the next set of

23     questions would go beyond the temporal frame-work that has to do with our

24     trial today, so I think this would really be a very good moment for me to

25     stop my cross-examination for today.

Page 757

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We must finish now to allow another

 2     Chamber to continue in the courtroom.  We'll resume tomorrow morning at

 3     9.00.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of

 6                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.