1 Monday, 23 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE PARKER: The affirmation you made at the beginning of your
9 evidence to tell the truth still applies, Mr. Peraj.
10 Mr. Djordjevic.
11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 WITNESS: NIKE PERAJ [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Peraj. I will not be taking too much of your
16 time. I told you my next topic is Mr. Seregj Perovic. This is the man,
17 you say you mentioned him for the first time in the Milutinovic case, and
18 after that this person appears in your statement after the amendments
19 that you wanted to do. You wanted to amend Major Zivkovic, the name that
20 was there, and you wanted it replaced with Seregj Perovic. You explained
21 to us who he was, and you explained to us why you didn't do that before,
22 and why, in fact, the first time that you did it was in the Milutinovic
23 case. And you say the first reason was of a humanitarian nature. That
24 person assisted, helped 100 people survive. You said that there were
25 more than 100 people who saw you with him and that people to this day
1 asked you to say thank you to Seregj Perovic for what he did.
2 You said that the second reason why you never mentioned his name
3 was the fact that he had called you on the phone and asked you to forget
4 about his name, to cut a long story short.
5 Now, my short question is regarding Sergegj Perovic is this: Why
6 did you do that in the Milutinovic case if you were so certain that this
7 man assisted your compatriots and if you new that this man risked his
8 life. You described this man as a humane person, and he had asked you to
9 -- not to reveal his name, yet you betrayed him in a way. So what was
10 the motive for that? Could you please tell us.
11 A. First, I've not betrayed anyone. I mentioned his name because,
12 in my opinion, the circumstances, the political circumstances have
13 changed, so I thought that his life was no longer at risk. This is the
15 Q. Is it something that you thought, or did you talk to him and did
16 he tell you that?
17 A. No, he did not say that to me.
18 Q. I will have no other questions regarding Seregj Perovic.
19 Now could you please look at paragraph 70 of your statement of
20 the 8th and 9th of August. It's already been admitted into evidence. It
21 says --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel please
23 slow down when reading.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Paragraph 70, you can see this paragraph. You say:
1 "I was on the KLA list for liquidation and the MUP obtained it in
2 the course of a search in Dobos. I was shown this list by
3 Captain Perovic."
4 Could you please tell me, have you ever learned why you were on
5 that list, what was the reason? And is it, indeed, true that you were on
6 this list?
7 A. This I learned from Seregj Perovic. I have not seen the list
9 JUDGE PARKER: I am not able to find the paragraph,
10 Mr. Djordjevic. Paragraph 70?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nor can I.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
13 Just a moment.
14 Well, I obviously provided you with the wrong reference, but to
15 speed things up, I will give you the reference later, and the witness has
16 already told us that Perovic had told him that. I will look for the
17 exact reference and provide it at a later stage, Your Honour.
18 Q. Let me now move on to the part of your statement when you talk
19 about your amended statement that you gave on the 17th of February, 2009
20 It's an overview of additional information. And let me draw your
21 attention to paragraph 8 in the additional information where you talk
22 about the jerry-cans or canisters. And you say in the third and the
23 sixth sentence in the statement that I already quoted, it says:
24 "Major Zivkovic should be replaced by Captain First Class Seregj
1 That's between the seventh and eighth sentence. The additional
2 sentence should be added: "About 2 or 3 metres away from the bodies I
3 saw two jerry-cans with fuel and a heap torn documents, ID cards and
5 That's paragraph 73 of the statement that you gave previously and
6 that you then amended.
7 Now I'm going to ask you to answer this: Why is it that you do
8 that for the first time today, that you mention that you saw those
9 jerry-cans there; and secondly, the ID cards? Since this is a very
10 important piece of information when we're talking about the allegations
11 in the indictment, you've never mentioned that before.
12 A. Can I respond?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have mentioned it already
15 earlier. I don't know exactly in which statement, because I have given
16 several statements to the Tribunal investigators, so I don't remember to
17 whom. But what I know is that I've already mentioned it earlier.
18 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Secondly, let us move on to paragraph 85 of the same statement
20 and the supplement, the additional information, that you provided on the
21 17th of February, 2009, to the Court. You say in paragraph 85:
22 "Some of the witnesses mentioned in Meje, before executing
23 people, the Serbs would spray a gas to incapacitate the victims before
24 execution. I did see one of the paramilitary soldiers carrying a gas
25 mask near the execution site."
1 And then you go on to say:
2 "I never saw any gas canisters in Meje to confirm this
3 allegation, but I'm convinced that the Serbs used them ..." and so on.
4 In the supplement, paragraph 6, third sentence, you say:
5 "The third sentence in paragraph 85 should read: 'I never saw
6 any jerry-cans with fuel in Meje to confirm this, but I'm sure that the
7 Serbs used them.'"
8 And you say that this sentence should read as follows:
9 "Three jerry-cans with fuel that I saw in Meje ..."
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the last part
11 of his sentence.
12 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. So your evidence here is not consistent, so could you please tell
14 us what is it all about? You talk about fuel canisters or jerry-cans in
15 the supplement paragraph 8, and then you say in paragraph 85 of your
16 statement of the 8th and 9th of August that you heard that those were gas
17 canisters. And then again in supplement, in paragraph 16, although you
18 see in paragraph 85 that you never saw those canisters, now you say that
19 you did see them. And then I'm asking you to explain --
20 JUDGE PARKER: We've had at least six questions now. You're
21 going on and on with questions. And I would also point out that on
22 Friday you asked for five extra minutes, we said you could have ten. You
23 have now have 15. So clarify your canisters, and that will be it.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] This is my last question.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: This is my last question.
2 Q. [Interpretation] So now I would like you to explain those
3 illogicalities in your statements, the discrepancies between your initial
4 statement and the additional statements. So are we talking about
5 jerry-cans or canisters with fuel or gas canisters? What is it that you
6 actually saw? Could you please tell us that.
7 A. They're canisters with fuel or benzene, but I'm not talking about
8 them. I'm talking about canisters with toxic gas, chemical gas, to
9 poison people. This is a very small canister. They wanted to spray the
10 son of my brother. This is what I wanted to explain to you. If you can
11 allow me to continue.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could tell you that the coffins
14 of the people who were -- that the bodies of the people who were
15 executed, the bodies which were lying near the cemetery, I did not see
16 the bodies, but I saw the blood spots and the blood streams. They seemed
17 to be like the stains made by a football ball. They were big stains of
18 blood, the size of a football ball.
19 So I assumed that if they did not use such a gas, then during the
20 execution, the people would have fallen on the left or on the right. But
21 actually, they were all lined up. Also, the blood spots would not have
22 been lined in three lines. They were symmetrical, just -- they had the
23 same size.
24 The blood on the grass of the meadow was dry, and in that place
25 there was no grass for two years. I was personally told by
1 Major Zivkovic that the gas was used. He was in Meje on that day, but he
2 was not with me. He was with another team. So he confirmed this to me.
3 Also, the son of my brother talked to me about this.
4 In my declaration I have said that I've not seen people using it.
5 I've not seen people holding such cans. As far as the gas masks are
6 concerned, then I could tell you that I've seen the soldier, a
7 paramilitary, with a gas mask. I have also seen other people with gas
8 masks which they had tied to their right foot, the gas masks.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Djordjevic, there was quite a bit given
10 there that didn't directly flow from your question. If you want to ask
11 some further question from that answer, you may before you need to sit
13 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My
14 question will be this: Why has the witness never mentioned that at all,
15 the ID cards? And he was quite specific about not having seen the
16 canisters. Why does he now change his evidence and say that he did see
17 them? Because he's never said that before, yet he signed the statement.
18 And it is quite clearly stated there that he had never seen them, and yet
19 in the supplement he changes everything, and why does he again say the
20 same thing today in court?
21 JUDGE PARKER: Can you assist us there, please, Mr. Peraj?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did mention this
23 before in my statement. I'm more than sure I did. I am saying this.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I have to interrupt you. Please look at paragraph --
1 A. The Honourable Judge can maybe interrupt my --
2 Q. Mr. Peraj, can you please look at paragraph 85.
3 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Judges, I don't want to get
4 answers to questions that I never asked. That is why I would like the
5 witness to look at paragraph 85 of the statement that he gave and that he
6 signed, and to tell me why is it that he said this at that time and then
7 changed his statement in the supplement and now. This is my last
8 question, if the witness wants to give me an answer. Could he please
9 look at the statement and then --
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, I will put the question.
11 In paragraph 85, Mr. Peraj, you said: "I never saw gas canisters
12 in Meje to confirm this, but I am convinced that the Serbs used them."
13 Did you see gas canisters?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I did see them
15 with my own eyes, and you can hold me morally, legally, responsible for
16 my claim.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Where were you when you saw them, the gas
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in Meje. Just close to the
20 bodies was a pile of documents that had been burnt down, and there was
21 one small canister near the pile of documents and two other gas canisters
22 a little bit further away, thrown on the grass.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Can you then tell us how you came to say in this
24 statement in paragraph 85 that "I never saw gas canisters in Meje"?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I honestly don't know. I did
1 mention that before. When all my statements were summarised into one,
2 maybe there was a change, not a deliberate change. But believe me, what
3 I'm telling you here now is true, and you can hold me responsible for
4 that. I'm 100 percent sure that that was the case. I saw them myself.
5 JUDGE PARKER: And it is also your belief that you had said this
6 in earlier statements, is that correct, that you had seen the canisters?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did mention it in my earlier
9 JUDGE PARKER: And you don't know how this change occurred in
10 paragraph 85 for you to say "I never saw gas canisters in Meje"?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I was a little bit
12 confused with the interpretation - gas canisters, fuel canisters. It is
13 true that you can carry fuel and petrol in canisters. There are -- there
14 is also gas used to burn bodies, and I did mention that I did not see
15 such type of gas. This canister can hold 10, 20 litres in it, and I did
16 not see that type of canister.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Did you see fuel canisters, fuel cans, in Meja,
18 holding benzene, petrol?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why the word "canister" is a
20 little bit confusing. I did not see fuel cans or petrol cans in Meje.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE PARKER: Well, Mr. Djordjevic, I think we have reached the
23 end, well and truly the end of the time that you should spend in the
24 cross-examination, so thank you very much.
25 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just
1 wanted to note that in the supplement the witness again spoke about fuel
2 cans, not about gas canisters, in paragraph 8 and further on in the
3 supplement. That's all. Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: That's a matter we can look at in due course.
5 Do we have an exhibit number for the statement of the 17th of
6 February, 2009
7 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honours. That was just a supplementary
8 information sheet containing what the witness said in proofing which we
9 gave to the Defence, so we alerted him in chief to the change that he
10 wanted to make to the statement.
11 JUDGE PARKER: As it has been the subject of the continuing
12 questioning, Mr. Stamp, you might, in the course of your re-examination,
13 think to tender that so we can understand better what was being put to
14 the witness, because we have not seen it so far.
15 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I know that this is not usual
18 practice for the supplementary statements given by the witnesses to be
19 tendered into evidence. That is why we did not put it on our list of
20 documents to be tendered and it's not in e-court. But in order for the
21 Trial Chamber to get a full picture of this cross-examination, we will
22 seek to tender this into evidence, and we will upload it into e-court.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic. I was hoping that
24 Mr. Stamp had it already in his e-court list. Not so?
25 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Well, then, we'll very much accept
2 Mr. Djordjevic's offer. Thank you. And it will be received, and it will
3 receive an exhibit number when you're able to tender it, and the
4 Court Officer might now indicate the number it will receive.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D00034, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 Now, Mr. Stamp.
8 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Peraj.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. When you were speaking of canisters that you saw, or a canister
13 that you saw, what type of canister are you referring to?
14 A. These canister were of a size usually used in medicine for those
15 who have problems with breathing. They were very small. In my opinion,
16 they obtained toxic gas with a short-term use of effect.
17 Q. And this is precisely what you told us in your statement.
18 A. This is what I said.
19 JUDE PARKER: What statement was that --
20 MR. STAMP: That was the statement of the 8th and 9th of August,
21 2006, which is Exhibit --
22 JUDGE PARKER: And where is the reference?
23 MR. STAMP: Paragraph 85, in the last sentence he said his
24 nephew --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Can I point out that the earlier reference in
1 paragraph 85 which has been the subject of questioning, Mr. Stamp --
2 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE PARKER: -- was in the physical context of the execution
4 site, and then what you are now referring to is a check-point at another
5 place and another time that day where a policeman, or someone, was seen
6 with a canister and about to administer the incapacitating agent.
7 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, I just wanted for the moment for
8 that question. Thank you very much, Your Honour, to establish that he
9 was referring to, I think, to an incapacitating agent. I'll get to the
10 place presently.
11 Q. It was put to you today that you had never spoken about seeing
12 any gas canister at Meja before you made the change on the 17th of
13 February when you spoke with attorneys from the OTP. I'd like to read to
14 you part of a transcript of your testimony on the 15th of August, 2006
15 You were asked:
16 "Do you still claim that gas was used in Meje?"
17 MR. STAMP: And may I just give the reference, I don't think we
18 should put the hundreds of pages of transcripts into testimony. I would
19 just like to give the reference. This is page 1713 of the transcript in
20 the Milutinovic et al case, and I'm quoting from paragraphs 10 to 18.
21 And this is just to rebut the allegation that he recently, very recently,
22 17th of February this year, said that he saw a canister.
23 Q. The question put to you was: "Do you still claim that gas was
24 used in Meje?"
25 And the answer: "Yes, I still abide by my claim for these
1 reasons. Number 1, the person, I mentioned I changed the name, and I
2 explained the reasons that I changed the name. He said he could smell an
3 unusual smell, which is a chemical smell."
4 The second reason -- I'm sorry.
5 "He said he could smell an unusual smell, which was a chemical
7 "The second reason is that I saw with my own eyes a small
8 canister. It was just like the one that people, people who suffer from
9 asthma use. It was that size."
10 Do you recall saying that three years ago almost?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. If we could move on to something else quickly. You
13 said, in answer to a question that my friend asked, that you did not
14 report to Major Djosan the crimes that you witnessed on the 27th and the
15 28th because the person you were with and others must have reported them
16 to him. Why do you say in the context of what was happening that they
17 must have reported to him what was happening?
18 A. Because a commander has his own assistant for morale and
19 political issues, for security issues, assistant for information,
20 assistant for personnel, so these were structures within the army that
21 are duty-bound to report. And that's why I am more than sure that they
22 must have informed him. If I, as an Albanian, informed him for Albanian
23 victims, I don't think that -- I don't think that that would have gone on
24 well. But, as I said, in a conversation with him -- a conversation with
25 him, he did express his concerns about what was going on.
1 Q. You said that over the period of time you were in Djakovica,
2 Major Djosan initiated proceedings against various persons.
3 A. [In English] Colonel, colonel, colonel.
4 Q. Excuse me, Colonel Djosan initiated proceedings against some VJ
5 members of crimes, i.e., looting and theft, et cetera. What happened to
6 these cases that Colonel Djosan brought against these people?
7 A. [Interpretation] As far as I know, five persons were convicted.
8 I don't know about others being convicted, though. However, those who
9 were convicted were released after a short time, and this was upon
10 somebody's orders. This would be my answer.
11 Q. If we could move on to the paramilitaries. You said that Arkan's
12 men, or the members of the Arkan unit, were always in the company of the
13 police. Is this something that you observed yourself, or were you told
14 about it?
15 A. This is something I observed myself, especially in Meje, and at
16 every check-point. There was a check-point at Brekoc, and whenever I
17 would pass by, I would see such persons there. But in Meje I saw them
18 with my own eyes.
19 I will mention one thing to you. I did not see paramilitaries at
20 the command post in Duzhnje, not even near the command itself. But in
21 Meje, in Orize, yes, I did.
22 Q. You said that Seselj's units were also involved in Meja and in
23 Korenica, and you went on to say that they were also in the town of
24 Djakovica itself, looting houses and setting them alight. Can you just
25 elaborate further on what was happening in Djakovica with Seselj's unit?
1 When, that is approximately when, and what did they do?
2 A. They lived and were stationed in the town itself, near the
3 location where we were as an army. I could see them in a cafe just close
4 to the army centre. They were in action, so to say, the whole night.
5 Every night they will loot, and then in the morning they would sleep
6 late, until 2.00, 3.00 p.m.
7 Afterwards they would gather again in this cafe. They would sing
8 nationalist songs, and then they would go out for action again.
9 I saw with my own eyes the houses that were burnt near the bus
10 station. In the morning -- in the evening, correction, police or people
11 dressed in police uniforms were standing by the asphalt road, while these
12 men were involved in burning the houses down.
13 I requested from Colonel Milos Djosan that something be
14 undertaken against this, because this location was very close to the army
15 location. But he said to me, This is not your business and not our
16 business at all; this is somebody else's business.
17 As you can see, I didn't provide so many details in the past
18 because I wasn't asked about the details. That's why I'm telling you
19 that I know what I'm saying, and you can hold me responsible morally and
20 legally for my claims here.
21 Q. Do you know of the police in Djakovica doing anything to restrain
22 the paramilitaries in these activities that they were conducting - I
23 think you called them actions - in these actions that they were
25 A. To my knowledge, no.
1 Q. In respect to the Frenkis, you said that they had a special -- or
2 Frenki was a commander for special unit, a special anti-terrorist unit.
3 Was his unit affiliated to any official organisation, as far as you know,
4 that is, Frenki's unit?
5 A. I had heard even before that this unit joined these operations
6 based on an agreement between the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of
7 the Interior. There was an agreement, just like in Bosnia and Croatia
8 There was a previous agreement. However, later on, as far as I know,
9 these agreements were not abided by properly.
10 Q. Let's turn and focus on Colonel Kovacevic, who you said became
11 the chief of the SUP
12 Djakovica municipality and the neighbouring municipalities. You said
13 that he was assigned to coordinate the actions of the MUP with the
14 paramilitaries, and you also said that the MUP supported and coordinated
15 their actions, or supported and coordinated the actions of the
16 paramilitaries, and you saw this especially in Meja and in the town of
18 Could you elaborate a little bit further. What, to your
19 understanding, was Colonel Kovacevic's role in coordinating the
20 paramilitaries and the MUP?
21 A. If there was no cooperation, no agreement, the MUP would then
22 prevent the actions undertaken by these forces. This is the proof. The
23 MUP would prevent their actions and their crimes. Same can be said for
24 the army. They would prevent the actions. Why, then, they did not
25 prevent these structures from undertaking such inhumane actions, criminal
1 actions? There were sufficient military and police forces to prevent
2 their activities, the activities of these groups.
3 Q. Thank you. You did tell us that police were present at the bus
4 station while Seselj's Eagles were setting people's houses alight. You
5 also said yesterday, and I think I should just read this question:
6 "Do you have any knowledge of Frenki's men participating in any
8 And your answer was: "I did not hear an operation in which the
9 parties participated on their own."
10 When they participated in actions, with whom would they normally
11 act? You said he did not participate on their own, so I assume you mean
12 this acted in coordination with another organisation. What are you
13 referring to?
14 A. To my knowledge, they did not operate on their own. They were in
15 coordination mainly with the police but with the army as well, especially
16 with the intelligence and secret service structures of these two
17 organisations. This is what I know.
18 Q. Now, as a result of the -- or in light of what you described was
19 happening in Djakovica, and that is the actions of the various
20 paramilitaries, sometimes in the presence of the police, did the civilian
21 Albanian population of Djakovica remain in the town after the 25th of
22 March, 1999? Or during the NATO intervention, did the civilian Albanian
23 population of Djakovica town remain there?
24 A. The majority of the population as a whole, Albanian and other
25 ethnicities, was in Gjakove and the surrounding villages. There were
1 also groups of civilians who left during this period of time. However,
2 the greatest exodus was in April 1999.
3 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, with your leave, I'd like to show to
4 the witness a photograph of a person and ask him if he recognises that
5 person or if that person is related to him.
6 JUDGE PARKER: I take it this arises out of cross-examination,
7 Mr. Stamp?
8 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
10 MR. STAMP: He was asked to describe, and if I tell you where it
11 arises, I'll be hinting to the witness where --
12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, go ahead.
13 MR. STAMP: Could you show it to the Defence counsel before
14 you ...
15 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic.
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I wonder why this document has
18 not been tendered earlier and it's only being done today, so that is the
19 basis for our objection.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Stamp has indicated already that
21 he's doing it because of specific questions put by you, so we should
22 allow him to continue.
23 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Mr. Peraj, could you have a look at that photograph and tell me
25 if the person depicted in it is familiar to you.
1 A. It seems to me that I must have seen this person, but I do not
2 recall who he is.
3 Q. You were asked to describe the general that you saw at the MUP
4 field headquarters, the general in charge of the special forces --
5 MR. DJORDJEVIC: Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has said -- the
8 witness said that he couldn't recognise the person in the photograph, and
9 now the Prosecutor is leading him by these words that he's just said to
10 describe or to actually name the person, and that is the basis for our
11 objection. The witness clearly said that he couldn't recognise the
12 person, he couldn't remember who it was.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I was waiting a moment longer, Mr. Stamp, because
14 it was not altogether clear what your line of questioning now is, but it
15 certainly bears the interpretation suggested by Mr. Djordjevic.
16 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Is that what you're about, still pursuing the
18 identity of the person in the photograph?
19 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, you've had the witness's answer, haven't
22 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour, he says it looks like someone he
23 knows, but he cannot --
24 JUDGE PARKER: No, he said: "I must have seen this fellow, but I
25 don't know --"
1 MR. STAMP: "... but I don't recall who he is."
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
3 MR. STAMP: I'm trying to refresh his memory.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think you'll have to leave that alone,
5 Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Is that the end of your re-examination?
8 MR. STAMP: That was my last question.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Peraj, you'll be pleased to know that that
12 concludes the questions for you. The Chamber would thank you for your
13 attendance here and the assistance you've given. In particular, we
14 regret that it was necessary for you to stay over the weekend, but the
15 additional evidence you've been able to give this morning will be of
16 assistance to us. So you are now free to return to your wife and your
17 ordinary activities, and we thank you for your assistance. And the
18 Court Officer will show you out.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I wish you
20 good work.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE PARKER: The next witness, if I understand correctly,
23 Mr. Stamp or Mr. Neuner -- Mr. Neuner.
24 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. Neuner will be leading the next witness.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is one that has protective measures;
1 is that correct? Because of that, it will be necessary for us to adjourn
2 to enable those to be put in place.
3 Before we do, we would point out that the time anticipated in the
4 Prosecution list for this witness was one hour. I mention that because,
5 for all witnesses to date, the Prosecution has spent one and a half to
6 two times longer than anticipated with the witness, and it will be
7 necessary for us to give closer attention to timing.
8 So, Mr. Neuner, we've put you on notice. And of course we will
9 be conscious of the time spent in cross-examination as well because to
10 date we have completed 11 witnesses in just over four weeks. At that
11 rate of progress, this will be a very, very long trial, and we need now
12 to, as things are getting more organised and everybody is becoming more
13 familiar with the case and the issues that may be important, we will
14 expect counsel to be able to focus more positively and concisely on the
15 issues that really do matter in the case, and so we anticipate that the
16 rate of progress will now become much quicker. And we encourage counsel
17 to that end, and we will be monitoring progress from now on much more
18 closely. And if we detect that time is being spent on matters that seem
19 to be of little or no real importance in the case, we will be intervening
20 to urge counsel to get on to matters that do matter.
21 Now, having said that, looking at the time, I think the practical
22 course for us would be to have the half-hour break now rather than the
23 20 minutes that would be necessary to put the security measures in place.
24 And if we have a half-hour break now, we should be able to have two clear
25 sessions of about an hour and a quarter for the rest of the sitting.
1 Very well. We'll adjourn now, resuming at 10.30.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 10.36 a.m.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
5 MR. NEUNER: Good morning.
6 The next witness is K90. He is a protected witness, and has next
7 to the pseudonym image and voice distortion, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
9 The witness is about to come in, so we'll move into closed
10 session to enable that.
11 [Closed session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, could I have the
5 pseudonym sheet distributed first to the witness.
6 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
7 Q. And, Witness, just read it and -- read it silently. Don't read
8 it out aloud, please, and tell us whether you agree with it.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. NEUNER: Could you please show it to the Defence as well. I
11 would ask that this be tendered. The 65 ter number is 2631. And I would
12 ask that it be tendered under seal, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00319, under seal, Your Honours.
15 MR. NEUNER: Could we now please have 65 ter 2646 being displayed
16 to the witness.
17 Q. Witness, it is correct you gave initially a statement in
18 December 2002, didn't you?
19 A. I can't remember the month, but that may be the case, yes.
20 Q. And when you came ...
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 MR. NEUNER: Maybe it is advisable to move into closed session
23 because the first page of this statement which is being displayed may
24 reveal the witness's name, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE PARKER: We have just arranged not to display the statement
1 beyond this courtroom.
2 MR. NEUNER: Okay. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
3 Q. When you gave this statement, Witness -- if you have a look at
4 it, it is displayed in front of you on the screen. We see the date is
5 31st of January, 2007. This is the last day of your testimony in the
6 Milutinovic case. Is it correct that you made some changes already
7 during the Milutinovic case to your statement?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And when you came a few days ago, you had some additional
10 changes; is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. I want to walk you briefly through these changes, which we are
13 doing here just on the record.
14 MR. NEUNER: Could we go in English and B/C/S to page 6, please.
15 Q. And I'm referring you to paragraph 29. You told us in the second
16 sentence that you wanted to have the word "Brigade" changed to "within my
17 battalion." Is this correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 MR. NEUNER: If we could go in English to page 7 and B/C/S to
20 page 8, please, and I'm referring now, if it comes, to paragraph 42, the
21 fifth sentence. Actually, in English we need --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that.
23 MR. NEUNER: One moment. In English we need to go to the next
24 page, please. It's page 8, then. Yes. If we could maybe focus here in
25 English on paragraphs 42 to 43, if I could impose my goodwill on the
1 usher. I think that's enough. Yeah.
2 Q. I'm referring to the fifth sentence here. The word which is used
3 there is "expel" and is it correct that you told us that you wanted to
4 have the word "expel" changed to "relocate" in the fifth sentence?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. NEUNER: And I'm now moving on to paragraph 43, the first and
7 the third sentence, and I'm more or less referring here only to the B/C/S
8 version because the English appear to be correct.
9 Q. You told us that you wanted to have the verb "proterivanje,"
10 which means expel in English, be replaced with the word "premestiti"
11 which means relocate; correct?
12 A. Yes, Correct.
13 MR. NEUNER: And this would -- if we could swap in B/C/S to the
14 next page, please, paragraph 44.
15 Q. This same change you told us would also apply to the first
16 sentence in paragraph 44.
17 MR. NEUNER: Sorry, we have only English versions now. We would
18 need the B/C/S version here, yeah. Correct.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm
21 following the changes that are being made now, in accordance with the
22 supplementary information that I received.
23 Under Roman numeral I, the last paragraph is 43. Mr. Neuner now
24 moved on to 44. That's why I rose to ask what was this all about. I
25 simply don't know. There is no such paragraph under Roman numeral I in
1 this information. Thank you.
2 MR. NEUNER: I can clarify this very briefly. If you look, my
3 learned colleague, if you look at the fourth hyphen, it starts with
4 paragraph 43, the first and third sentences which I have just corrected,
5 and paragraph 44, first sentence.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but in the
7 translation provided to me by the OTP - I don't know about the English
8 version; I'll have a look now - I do not have a paragraph 44, just
9 paragraph 43. I do apologise. Could I please just have a look. I've
10 found the English version, too, Your Honour. Roman numeral I, you don't
11 have paragraph 44 either. Well, let's see what the witness is going to
12 change and then -- well, let's see, rather, what he's going to state, and
13 then we'll proceed, will we? What do you say to that?
14 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber doesn't have these corrections at all,
15 but what Mr. Neuner had indicated is that the same change would be made
16 in paragraph 44 which had been made in paragraph 43, so it's the same
17 change repeated.
18 MR. NEUNER: Yeah. We have ERNed our supplementary information
19 sheet, and I believe the ERN version has been communicated to you. I
20 have the English version in front of me, which, in the fourth hyphen,
21 contains these references to paragraph 43, first and third sentence; and
22 paragraph 44, first sentence.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Would you move on to deal with 44, then, and we'll
24 see if there's still a problem.
25 MR. NEUNER: Yeah. It is, as Your Honour has pointed out, indeed
1 the same change.
2 Q. If you look at paragraph 44, the first sentence, in B/C/S you
3 wanted to have changed the word "proterivanje" to "promestiti."
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Yeah. In English it means basically from -- we change from
6 "expel" to "relocate." And if we could go back to your last change,
7 which is paragraph 43, the third sentence.
8 MR. NEUNER: In the B/C/S version we'd need to go back now,
9 please, one page. If you could highlight this, yes.
10 Q. The third sentence, you wanted to have the phrase "sve primoramo"
11 replaced by "im naredimo."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. With these changes being undertaken, can I take that the
14 statement now adequately reflects what you have stated and observed in
15 1999, in April?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask, Your Honours, with this explanation
18 given, that 02646, the statement of the witness, could be tendered under
19 seal, and we have also prepared for public version 02652, which contains
20 some redactions, Your Honours. Could I ask that both statements be
22 JUDGE PARKER: The statements will be received with the
23 redactions in one version, and the unredacted version, under seal, for
24 the other.
25 THE REGISTRAR: The under-seal version, Your Honours, will be
1 assigned P00320, under seal. And the redacted version will be under
2 P00321, Your Honours.
3 MR. NEUNER:
4 Q. I now would like to move on to your testimony, which has the 65
5 ter number 5118. As I mentioned earlier, it was given on three days from
6 the 29th to the 31st of January, 2007, in the Milutinovic case. Would
7 you agree that the statements we just tendered, together with this
8 testimony, accurately reflect what you would have -- what you would say
9 if you give your testimony orally before this Court today?
10 A. For the most part, yes.
11 Q. The testimony is the protocol, verbatim protocol. That's why I
12 believe it's exactly what you have said. So I hope you agree that it
13 doesn't only reflect for the most part but that it, indeed, reflects
14 everything you said.
15 A. The interpreter said "zapitnik," and I don't understand that.
16 What was meant by that, "zapisnik"? I don't know.
17 Q. What I wanted to ask, and I'll rephrase, did the testimony from
18 the Milutinovic case reflect precisely and accurately what you have
19 testified to in 2007 about the incidents in April 1999?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. NEUNER: With this explanation given -- I see my learned
22 colleague on his feet.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.
25 Perhaps the time is not right, but I believe it is. There is a problem
1 in relation to 92 ter statements that are being admitted. What we get
2 from the OTP is a list of exhibits that will be used, or, rather,
3 exhibits that they will introduce through the witness, but they don't
4 provide us with the 92 ter statement. So now we are admitting the
5 Milutinovic transcript and the statement.
6 The Defence does not prepare in the same way if only one
7 statement is admitted or both. If the Trial Chamber believes that my
8 proposal is appropriate, could the Prosecution please mark the statements
9 that they are going to introduce as 92 ter statements. Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not sure that I fully understand the problem.
11 Do you, Mr. Neuner?
12 I gather that Mr. Djurdjic is saying he hasn't received a copy of
13 the statements and of the transcript of evidence which you're now
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. You
16 didn't quite understand me. What we get is a list of exhibits that the
17 Prosecutor is going to use, but the Prosecutor does not mark the
18 statement that will be tendered through Rule 92 ter. It's not marked.
19 They give us four or five statements that will be used, but they don't
20 say which one is going to be tendered as a 92 ter statement, whether it's
21 going to be one, two, three, or four statements. For example, we had one
22 statement of Witness Nike Peraj that was a 92 ter statement, but there
23 were two or three others one there as well.
24 Thank you. I think that you have understood what I'm saying
25 right now.
1 JUDGE PARKER: And I think Mr. Neuner now does as well.
2 MR. NEUNER: I wish to reply briefly. Because I'm aware about
3 the time, and I'm almost afraid I can't make it within one hour now with
4 all these objections.
5 On the point, we have submitted a list and the 65 ter number,
6 which I've also read out this morning, 2646, contained the following
7 description: "Amended Rule 92 ter statement of K-6," it said in the
8 description. We also provided the dates, including the date 31st of
9 January, 2007, to this one.
10 This is a Rule 92 ter witness, Your Honour. We have notified the
11 Court in our filings about the fact that the status of this witness is a
12 92 ter witness, and we believe this, in itself, is self-explanatory.
13 JUDGE PARKER: The important thing for the future, Mr. Neuner,
14 and I'm sure that you and Mr. Stamp with Mr. Djurdjic and
15 Mr. Djordjevic, can get a system that is clear and simple working, but
16 the Defence seeks to be able to know which of the exhibit statements you
17 provide is going to be the actual 92 ter statement. So if we can just
18 leave it with you and Mr. Djurdjic to be sure that in future that is
19 clear to the Defence.
20 MR. NEUNER: Okay.
21 JUDGE PARKER: And now move on with speed, Mr. Neuner.
22 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.
23 Have I asked that the testimony with the 65 ter number 5118 is
24 being tendered into evidence.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received, and that will need to be
1 under seal?
2 MR. NEUNER: Yes, please, Your Honour.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00322, under seal, Your Honours.
4 MR. NEUNER: I will briefly read out the summary.
5 "The witness, K90, is a VJ insider who was stationed in Djakovica
6 in spring 1999. He was a military policeman in the 2nd Battalion of the
7 549th Motorised Brigade. His unit ordered Albanian villagers from
8 villages around Djakovica to leave their homes based on his commander's
9 order to relocate them.
10 "The witness relates that in late April 1999 the VJ secured the
11 area around the villages of Korenica and Meje. Around 400 additional PJP
12 policemen arrived. The witness also saw some Frenki soldiers. The
13 police entered the villages and fired randomly into houses. The witness
14 saw burnt homes. As a result, large columns of refugees formed along the
15 roads to Djakovica.
16 "The witness observed that policemen separated Albanian men from
17 women and led the men to a nearby yard. He saw several groups led to his
18 house and heard shots -- led to this house and heard shots. Once he
19 approached this yard where he was told by policemen that they were
20 slaughtering Siptars. In a small house on the yard, he saw bodies
21 covering the ground. Before leaving the police set fire to houses within
22 the yard where Albanians had been killed.
23 "The witness also accompanied some wounded VJ soldiers and a
24 column of Albanian civilians towards Djakovica."
25 If we could briefly move to private session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
2 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 MR. NEUNER:
23 Q. Among the command line, to whom did Mr. Nenad Nesovic report to?
24 A. In the battalion, Major Vukovic. As for the security line,
25 someone in Prizren. I don't know who.
1 Q. And Mr. Vukovic, what was his exact position?
2 A. The commander of the 2nd Battalion of the 549th Motorised
4 Q. And Mr. Vukovic reported to whom?
5 A. To then Colonel Delic, Bozidar Delic.
6 Q. And he was holding which position?
7 A. Commander of the 549th Motorised Brigade.
8 Q. And to whom did Mr. Delic report to in 1999?
9 A. The corps commander.
10 Q. Of which corps and what is it --
11 A. The Pristina Corps. The Pristina Corps, the commander was
12 General Lazarevic.
13 MR. NEUNER: I want to now have a map, 615.04 being displayed,
14 please. And while this is being done, could we move to private session
16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 1342 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
9 MR. NEUNER:
10 Q. You mention in your statement that the police arrived. When
11 roughly, that day when you were at the command post, did the police
13 A. Some police were already there, but others arrived around 7.00.
14 I don't know exactly what time it was, but thereabouts, 7.00, 7.30.
15 Q. In the morning or in the evening?
16 A. In the morning.
17 Q. And how did these additional policemen arrive?
18 A. They arrived on buses.
19 Q. How many buses?
20 A. About ten, plus or minus. Around ten, as far as I could see.
21 Q. And how many persons were in each of these ten buses?
22 A. Well, I cannot really claim with any certainty, but about 40 of
23 them. If they also had weapons and equipment with them, it would have
24 been around 40 -- 35 to 40 men.
25 Q. Thirty-five to 40 men per bus? Could you clarify, please.
1 A. That's correct. That's right.
2 Q. And where did you see these buses going to? Could you mark that
3 on the map.
4 A. Well, yes. From Djakovica, headed towards Korenica, that was one
5 group; whereas the other one was somewhere from this area, but I couldn't
6 go any further up because I'm not sure. But it's approximately how far
7 the buses could actually reach. Further on they couldn't go anymore.
8 Q. Could you mark on both arrows which you have just drawn a 2.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. In paragraph 48, the second sentence of your statement, you talk
11 about the police, and you say, I quote, "They entered into villages and
12 randomly fired into homes." Which villages are you referring to here?
13 A. I'm referring to Korenica primarily because that's what I did
14 see. But it's possible that the other villages were also involved, but I
15 was speaking of Korenica specifically.
16 Q. And you're stating "they randomly fired." What do you mean by
18 A. Well, they stopped the vehicle, and then they would fire at the
19 house which was there. They would fire with a machine-gun. This was not
20 a classic combat vehicle, military vehicle, but it was like a jeep, an
21 all-terrain vehicle, and they had a machine-gun mounted on it at that
23 Q. Could you describe the colour of the vehicle?
24 A. It was the green military drab, camouflage. I can't describe it
1 Q. And who was operating the machine-gun?
2 A. The policeman who was on the vehicle, so the policeman fired from
3 the vehicle.
4 Q. At that moment was there any outgoing fire from Korenica village
6 A. No.
7 Q. The whole morning, did you see any outgoing fire coming from
8 Korenica, being directed outside, outwards?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In paragraph 53 of your statement, you state, "Houses were
11 burning all around." Could you describe where you saw burning houses
12 that morning?
13 A. It was on the approaches to Korenica village, the first part, the
14 area that you can see here. All the houses were burning, including the
15 one that was right here, the first house, up to this line here, which is
16 as far as I went.
17 Q. You have marked now at the eastern border of Korenica some bold
18 stricken line. Could you mark below that bold line a number 3, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. How far away from the burning houses was the command post where
21 you were?
22 A. I cannot say with certainty, but about 120, 130 metres, maybe
23 less. If we look at the first house that was here toward the command
24 post, that house would have been around 100 metres from the command post,
25 and the other houses were about 120 to 150 metres away.
1 Q. After the houses burned that day, did you ever at a later point
2 in time return to Korenica?
3 A. Yes, a few days later, five, six, maybe ten days later, I did
4 return. I don't know exactly what the date was.
5 Q. And how did the houses you saw in the village of Korenica
6 did the houses look like there?
7 A. Well, they were totally charred. There were no roofs anymore.
8 They weren't really livable anymore, the houses.
9 Q. What do you mean by "livable"?
10 A. Well, that means that they were with no roof; there were no
11 windows or doors. Everything that could be consumed in a fire was
13 Q. In paragraph 63, the second sentence of your statement, you're
14 mentioning "I travelled with an ambulance," and you say, and I quote, "On
15 the way I recall seeing some bodies on the side of the road near the
16 entrance of Korenica." Could you mark for us the location where you saw
17 these bodies by drawing a circle.
18 A. Not on the side of the road. They were in the first house that I
19 mentioned earlier, next to this fence here, in this part, at the very --
20 by the very entrance or approach to the village, maybe some 50 metres
21 from the village itself. So the bodies were next to a fence there.
22 Q. Could you -- I know it's already relatively populated, the map,
23 but could you try to mark it with a circle next to which you please add
24 the number 4.
25 A. Well, there's a blot here, but let me try and draw it. It's
1 right here.
2 Q. And could you roughly mark a circle. Because you haven't marked
3 a circle yet.
4 A. Well, I did mark a circle. You can see it here.
5 Q. Okay. What type of clothes wore the dead persons, the four dead
6 persons, that day?
7 A. I can't recall the colour or what clothes they had on, but they
8 were civilians, that's for sure. They didn't have uniforms on.
9 Q. Did you see any weapons lying next to the dead persons or in the
10 hands of the dead persons?
11 A. No. No.
12 Q. You also talk in your statement about two soldiers which were
13 wounded and which you had to retrieve that day. Could you mark with a
14 circle, adding the letter Q to it, where these two wounded soldiers were.
15 A. Well, as there's a big blot here, I'll try to draw it. It should
16 be on this thick line here, but I will mark it here, and it's
17 approximately right there.
18 MR. NEUNER: Just for the explanation, because it's getting
19 fuller and fuller, the witness has, below the road leading from Djakovica
20 to Korenica, below the arrow which he has indicated with number 2, marked
21 another circle and added below that circle the letter Q.
22 Q. With regard to paragraph 52 of your statement, you state that 500
23 displaced Albanian people from Korenica were proceeding in a column.
24 Could you indicate by drawing an arrow in which direction the column of
25 people from Korenica was moving.
1 A. I didn't say that there were 500 people in one column. I said
2 they were in several groups of 10, 20, or 30 people, and this was on
3 several occasions. So they weren't all coming at once, together. And
4 here, where I drew this house, well, let me draw this line here, so it
5 was there. And also from this other side.
6 Q. Can you -- can you, taking the arrow coming from Korenica, can
7 you, at the beginning of the line leading to the arrow, mark the
8 letter B, please, because there is some space left. The map is getting
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you. And this second arrow, I will just describe for the
12 record. You have marked a line coming from Orize, hitting the main road
13 from Korenica towards Djakovica. Is that accurate?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Could you, maybe in the vicinity of the word "Orize" mark a C
16 next to that line, if it's possible.
17 A. Orize.
18 MR. NEUNER: Actually, maybe could I impose the goodwill of the
19 usher, I wanted to make it 1:1, as the witness had marked it in his
20 statement, but the letter C is so far away now. The map is too full.
21 Could I ask the usher to remove the C, because it's too far away.
22 It's not possible?
23 Q. Okay, If it's not possible, could you from the letter C draw an
24 arrow towards the direction in which the column was moving.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not want to
2 intervene earlier, regardless of what these markings looked like. The
3 witness wrote and marked what he said, and he marked it, and I think that
4 there is no reason to delete it, although the Prosecutor considers it
5 necessary. Thank you.
6 JUDGE PARKER: The C is remaining and something further is being
7 marked, as I understand it.
8 MR. NEUNER:
9 Q. If it is possible, could you -- could you just explain what you
10 mean by C. What -- you were talking about two columns. The column of
11 Korenica we had. What did you want to indicate what you meant by the
12 letter C? Could you just explain for the record.
13 A. C is the Orize village. That's where the column was moving from
14 the crossing in Orize towards the main road that was leading to Korenice
15 and Junik.
16 Q. Okay. Then in paragraph 54 and 55 of your statement, you
17 mentioned that there were 30 policemen at the crossroad A who separated
18 men from women and took them to the yard. Could you, first of all,
19 indicate where you believe the crossroad A was?
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, we have now got a map marked with so
21 many things that it's going to be extremely difficult to make sense of
22 it. If you want other positions marked, I think you need to start afresh
23 on a new map.
24 MR. NEUNER: I would ask that the map is then being tendered
25 right now, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00323, Your Honours.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just want to make
4 sure we don't get into a problem. My colleague Neuner began describing
5 some letters referring to a map that is not this map but the map attached
6 to the statement, and we had no opportunity to see that exhibit. And
7 also the witness did not reply to that question because of Your Honour's
8 intervention, and I just wanted to point out that if he were to answer
9 the question relating to paragraphs 54 and 55, then we should see the map
10 where those letters are marked, and I think this is in statement 4626
11 that was adopted or, rather, tendered as a 65 ter document.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Djurdjic, but what I
13 believe Mr. Neuner is about to do is to start with a clean map and have
14 the position of those policemen at crossroad A marked on the new map, so
15 I think that that should make it clear.
16 MR. NEUNER: Could I just ask that after -- this map is obviously
17 being tendered now, that we have the same map and the same enlargement
18 again, please. It could even be a much broader enlargement. Just -- we
19 don't need Djakovica, no. I think that's perfectly suitable.
20 Q. Could you mark again with a circle the location of the VJ command
21 post and add a "VJ" to the circle.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Could you now mark the crossroad where you saw 30 policemen by
25 drawing a circle around the crossroad and adding a letter A south of it.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Could you mark a letter A below the circle.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you.
5 And could you now mark with the letter E, for Emil, where you
6 believe the yard was to which the policemen took the separated men.
7 A. [Marks]
8 MR. NEUNER: The witness, for the record, has marked east of the
9 crossroad a circle with a letter E on top of it. The letter E is not
10 very legible.
11 Q. How many groups did you see being taken there at the end of April
12 that day, 1999?
13 A. And it wasn't that far.
14 Q. Okay. But could you answer my question: How many groups did you
15 see being led to this yard, which was not far away from the crossroad, at
16 the end of April 1999?
17 A. If we bear in mind that I was there three or four times, that
18 means that this one group that came -- that arrived the latest, I can't
19 tell you exactly how many men there were. But as they came, they would
20 release some men, and some they would bring in. And what I could see was
21 that they had brought at least three to four groups there. Well, some
22 were going in one direction; others in another. In any case I wasn't
23 really watching this because that wasn't my job. But there were
24 certainly three to four
25 certain that did go there.
1 Q. So three to four groups at least. Could you say how many men,
2 roughly, were in each of these groups?
3 A. Well, it's very difficult now to tell you, because it was a
4 general commotion there at the crossroads, so I can't really tell you how
5 many people were there, how many men. But I'm sure, and I'm certain for
6 this last group, because I ran across -- I came across them as I was
7 returning, there were about eight to ten men in the group.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said
10 "three to four groups," that's what I saw, and then my learned colleague
11 Neuner says, "So you saw at least three to four groups." I think that's
12 inappropriate. If we heard the witness's answer, we should just move on,
13 and I don't think anything can be accomplished by this kind of wording.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I think it was an attempt by Mr. Neuner to reflect
15 language which had been used earlier, which was "certainly three to four
16 groups," and earlier than that it had been "at least three to four
17 groups." They were the words of the witness, and that appears at line 2
18 of page 22, so I don't think we can be at all critical of that,
19 Mr. Djurdjic.
20 Yes, Mr. Neuner.
21 MR. NEUNER: But I will just clarify the point raised by my
22 learned colleague.
23 Q. Witness, how many groups do you, today, remember having seen
24 being led to that house?
25 A. At least four. So if I went there on three occasions and one
1 group that I met on the way, so that's four groups, so at least four.
2 Q. You say you went there on three occasions. What do you mean?
3 Where did you go on three occasions?
4 A. The crossroads. I meant being at the crossroads, going from the
5 command post to the crossroads that was marked with the letter A.
6 Q. And whom did you see at the crossroads from the Serbian side?
7 What persons from the Serbian side did you see at this crossroad?
8 A. I do not understand your questions, but if you mean policemen,
9 yes, I did see policemen at the crossroads. I don't know what you mean
10 by "the Serbian side."
11 Q. I meant policemen, but I didn't want to lead you.
12 MR. NEUNER: I want to now move into private session for a
14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 1354 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00324, Your Honours.
1 MR. NEUNER: Could we now have Exhibit -- 65 ter number 1326 on
2 our screens, please.
3 Q. I want you now to give us some description about the policemen
4 which you saw in and around Korenica and at the yard. We have here a
5 photo-board containing several uniforms for you. Could you please by
6 looking at this, and you see the numbers here, tell the Court which type
7 of uniform wore the policemen that arrived in the ten buses that morning?
8 JUDGE PARKER: There's a first question before that one,
9 Mr. Neuner, whether the policemen who arrived that morning in the buses
10 were wearing any of the types of uniforms shown on this photo-board.
11 MR. NEUNER: Okay, yeah. I will proceed as suggested.
12 Q. Could you, first of all, tell me whether the policemen were
13 wearing any type of uniform, who arrived -- the policemen who arrived
14 this morning.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it would
17 be proper for the witness to first describe the uniforms and then to have
18 the uniforms displayed so that he could then indicate which ones he
19 recognises. That would be the right procedure to follow, if something is
20 to be recognised. Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?
22 JUDGE PARKER: That would be a correct procedure, Mr. Djurdjic,
23 but the one I've suggested, I think, will suffice in the circumstances.
24 The question, though, to be asked is whether the uniforms depicted on
25 this board, whether any one of those was the type being worn that day.
1 MR. NEUNER:
2 Q. Could I go now step by step? Did you see any of the policemen
3 wearing uniforms that morning? And I'm talking to the policemen in the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you describe what you saw, what colour of the uniform they
8 A. Yes, classical blue uniform with vests, combat vests, on which it
9 said "PJP," special police unit. That was on the back. Well, you can't
10 really see it here.
11 Q. I would now, just for -- to get the first questions in, move on
12 to the policemen which you saw three or four times at the crossroads.
13 You marked the crossroad as A on the map. Did you see these policemen
14 wearing any uniform, and how would you describe it?
15 A. Yes, just like a minute ago, but it is these under number 6 that
16 are the closest to the type of uniform that those people wore.
17 Q. I don't want you to touch for the time being the photo-board. I
18 want to now move on to the main policemen to whom you spoke in the yard
19 of the house you marked as E, for Emil. Did this man wear a uniform, or
20 didn't he? And how would you describe it?
21 A. Yes. Yes, like the previous ones. Classical police uniform with
22 a combat vest.
23 Q. Okay. Could you now look at the photo-board in front of you,
24 and, as far as I understood you, you had summarised that they all looked
25 similar, meaning the policemen in the bus, at the crossroad, A, and in
1 the yard, E --
2 MR. NEUNER: I can withdraw that if my learned colleague has ...
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If my colleague is withdrawing his
5 question, then there's no reason for me to object.
6 MR. NEUNER: I with --
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
8 MR. NEUNER: I withdraw it.
9 Q. Witness, I start afresh.
10 Could you, looking at this photo-board, please tell us which of
11 the uniform types, if any, resemble the closest the policemen who arrived
12 in the buses that morning?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I'm a bit of
15 a bore, but now my learned friend, the Prosecutor, is trying to gear the
16 witness's clear answers in the direction that he wants them to be geared
17 towards. The witness said three times what kind of uniforms the
18 policemen wore, and now my colleague is trying to deal with the policemen
19 one by one, yet again, to ask what kind of uniforms they wore. I don't
20 think that's right. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
22 MR. NEUNER: I have now followed, I believe, a proper procedure,
23 as suggested, and I have asked some founding questions relating to this
24 photo-board, and I'm now trying to finally move towards the photo-board
1 On this photo-board there are ten different uniforms depicted. I
2 believe I'm now authorised to ask the witness to pick, if he can, one or
3 several of the pictures which resemble the persons I'm talking about.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE PARKER: Continue, please, Mr. Neuner.
6 MR. NEUNER: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. Now, my question was: The policemen who arrived that morning in
8 buses, if you look at the photo-board in front of you, which one of the
9 pictures, if any, resembles the closest the uniforms worn by the
10 policemen in the bus?
11 A. The one on the photograph that is marked number 6.
12 Q. If I now move on to the about 30 policemen who were stationed
13 that day at the crossroad you marked as letter A on the map a minute ago,
14 which one of the ten pictures, if any, resembled the closest the uniform
15 worn by these 30 policemen?
16 A. Photograph number 6.
17 Q. If I then move on to the policemen you spoke to in the yard of
18 the house you marked as letter E on the previous map, which one of the
19 ten uniforms, if any, resembled the closest the uniforms worn by these
21 A. Photograph number 6.
22 Q. And the other nine policemen you also saw in the yard of the
23 house marked as E, how would you describe this uniform, if you look at
24 the pictures here in front of you.
25 A. Again, photograph number 6.
1 MR. NEUNER: I would ask that the picture is being tendered,
2 Your Honour, the photo-board.
3 JUDGE PARKER: The photo-board will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00325, Your Honours.
5 MR. NEUNER:
6 Q. And could I ask you what weapons the 30 policemen wore at the
7 crossroad A, when you passed by that day?
8 A. Automatic rifles that regular police officers have.
9 Q. And the weapons worn by the policemen in the yard you described
10 with the letter E on your map.
11 A. Again, the same.
12 Q. Would you be in a position to pick the type of weapon out of a
13 photo-board, if I show you one, a photo-board of weapons?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. NEUNER: If I could ask that the 65 ter number 1323 is being
16 shown to this witness. It has two pages. We would go for the first
17 page, and after a few seconds I would ask that it be -- the page is being
18 flipped. I'm sorry, it was 1324. If we could, now that we have had a
19 few seconds, move to the second page. Yes, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Photograph number 1. I beg your
21 pardon, weapon number 1.
22 MR. NEUNER:
23 Q. So we are now on the second page with the ERN number K0218271,
24 and you believe that the policemen at the crossroad and in the yard wore
25 weapon number 1, is it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What type of weapon, if you can recall, is this?
3 A. Automatic rifle. M-84 -- no, no, wait a minute. I can't
4 remember now. I've forgotten. I know, but at this moment I've forgotten
5 totally, because I had one just like it.
6 Q. So you, being a member of the VJ, you also had a similar weapon;
8 A. I'm saying the same.
9 MR. NEUNER: Could I ask that this exhibit is being tendered,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00326, Your Honours.
13 MR. NEUNER:
14 Q. Did you observe any insignia worn by the policemen at the
15 crossroads or at -- in the yard?
16 A. Well, it's just what they have on their sleeves and what it says
17 on the combat vests, if that's what you meant. Yes.
18 Q. Could you describe what was on this insignia depicted?
19 A. Well, "Police" on the sleeve and then on the combat vest where
20 the ammunition clips in the back, where that little bag is, up there it
21 says "Posebne jedinice," or something like that. At any rate, there is
22 big white letters, Cyrillic letters.
23 Q. And what colour?
24 A. Green. Green. The vests are green, and the uniforms are blue.
25 Q. And the insignia, what colour?
1 A. The insignia are white on the sleeve and on the back of the vest.
2 MR. NEUNER: Could we have a look at Exhibit 1323, please, 65 ter
3 number 1323.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I do beg your pardon, Your Honour,
6 but again we have a problem. What is being displayed is something that
7 is supposed to be recognised, and beforehand it has not been described,
8 especially when we have this kind of exhibit in front of us where it is
9 actually written what is what. I mean, if something is being described,
10 then it should be described first and only then the witness can recognise
11 what it is that he is supposed to recognise. I believe that that would
12 be the only right course to take.
13 JUDGE PARKER: As I have understood it, there has been a
14 description. Whether that description is reflected in any of these
15 pictures is another question.
16 Carry on, please, Mr. Neuner.
17 MR. NEUNER:
18 Q. Could you indicate, among the 13 insignia here in front of you,
19 which one of these 13 closely resembles, if any, closely resembles the
20 insignia you saw that day at the policemen at the crossroad A?
21 A. Seven. Seven. The rest is mostly military, as far as I could
23 Q. Could I also ask you, within the yard, which of the insignia worn
24 most closely resembled --
25 MR. NEUNER: We need to have the insignia back, please.
1 Q. -- the insignia worn by the policemen in the yard?
2 A. Again, number 7.
3 Q. Thank you. You are familiar with the other insignia. Could you
4 explain for us if you know any other insignia here?
5 MR. NEUNER: We need, please, both.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, those that are
7 for the army. As for the others, well, I don't know. The military ones,
8 for the most part.
9 MR. NEUNER:
10 Q. Which one do you recognise?
11 A. Photograph number 3, photograph number 1, photograph number 4,
12 the one that I had, too. I don't know about the others. Well, number 7,
13 as I've already said. As for the others, well, these are some --
14 MR. NEUNER: Can we have the first --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. NEUNER:
17 Q. Can you explain to us which unit wore insignia number 1, please?
18 A. Oh, sorry. Of course you can see it written here, the
19 63rd Airborne. You can see it written there. The question is from what
20 time this is.
21 Q. Do you know from which time it is?
22 A. No, no. Well, maybe I could remember, but it's still a
23 question -- well, all of it is -- I don't know, I don't know. I can't
25 Q. Could you explain to us what number 4, insignia number 4, is?
1 A. Military police insignia. I don't know if it's still the same.
2 It was changed before that and after that every year, so now I really
3 don't know which ones -- well, I mean at that moment it was this one, but
4 now I really don't know.
5 Q. "At that moment," which year are you referring to?
6 A. The war years. Well, that would be around, say, from the 1990s
7 up to 1999, 2000. It changed a lot. While I worked for the military, at
8 least two or three insignia were changed. I can't even remember now.
9 Q. But in 1999, you, yourself, had insignia number 4?
10 A. Number 4, that's right. Yes, it's on the photograph there, the
11 one that I gave you.
12 MR. NEUNER: I would seek this exhibit to be tendered,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00326, Your Honours.
16 MR. NEUNER:
17 Q. You mention in paragraph 66 of your statement that the policemen
18 withdrew an hour before the VJ troops. Could you explain how the police
19 withdrew that day?
20 A. Got onto the buses and left.
21 Q. So how many buses did you see? Where did the buses pick them up,
22 and where did they -- in which direction did the buses go?
23 A. Well, the same place that they had come from but in the opposite
24 direction; the same number of buses, what I said, around ten, well, give
25 or take one or two.
1 Q. And in which direction did the buses leave?
2 A. Some were going from Korenica towards Djakovica. Others passed
3 by that crossroad where they collected those 30 or so. They also took
4 the road towards Djakovica. I don't know about after that, but they took
5 the road leading to Djakovica.
6 Q. And what -- in what condition was the compound, you marked as E
7 for Emil a moment ago, when the police left?
8 A. Well, they burnt the house, the little house there. The main
9 house in the yard was not set on fire. Only the little one that was in
10 the yard. Actually, there was yet another one there, but it wasn't
11 really a little house. It was something like made of wood, but that was
12 not torched.
13 Q. Did you at any point in time return towards the house -- I'll
14 stop. I withdraw that. When did you, yourself, leave?
15 A. Around 4.00 in the afternoon. Between 3.30 and 4.00, 4.30, it
16 would be that period of time, sort of.
17 Q. And did somebody leave with you, or you left everybody behind at
18 the command post?
19 A. No. We all withdrew, at that point in time, that is, all of us.
20 Q. And the house was still burning at this point in time?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you at any point in time return to that house?
23 A. Yes, the following day.
24 Q. And what did you observe?
25 A. Just the foundations, the other layer there, and nothing else.
1 Nothing else was there.
2 Q. Did you see any traces of bodies which you had seen lying in the
3 small house?
4 A. No, nothing, absolutely.
5 Q. Did you see any ashes or any burned traces?
6 A. Nothing, absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing, that is to say,
7 absolutely nothing.
8 Q. Were there any troops in the area when you returned?
9 A. No.
10 MR. NEUNER: I note the time. I would just have one more map
11 which I hope to squeeze in. If we could have Exhibit 615.4, that's the
12 map, being displayed again.
13 Q. And I just want you to mark one area.
14 You mentioned in your statement, in paragraph 44, that your unit
15 was involved in the relocation of nine to ten villages and hamlets.
16 Could you explain to us - we don't need to have it enlarged - could you
17 explain to us, where were these nine to ten hamlets and villages located?
18 A. I said nine to ten hamlets, not villages. One of the villages is
19 Zub; here it is. The other village is Brekovac, part of Brekovac,
20 rather, and the hamlets around there. Not villages, not nine or ten
21 villages, no. Do we understand each other now?
22 Q. We perfectly do. Could you roughly mark by drawing a broader
23 arrow the area where these hamlets were located, nine to ten hamlets?
24 A. Well, everywhere around here, sort of here, and then this part,
25 and then here by the cemetery here, and here by the river.
1 MR. NEUNER: So the witness has marked some six, seven, circles
2 where he believed that the villages -- or hamlets were.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three, four, five, six, seven,
5 MR. NEUNER: Yes, which were relocated.
6 Q. Could you tell me which time period the relocation was taking
8 A. Well, I don't know. From the beginning of April onwards. I
9 can't remember exactly what the time was because, well -- in that period,
10 I mean.
11 Q. In which year?
12 A. 1999.
13 MR. NEUNER: I would seek this -- to tender this map,
14 Your Honours, and at this point in time the Prosecution has no further
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE PARKER: This will be received, and it should be 328.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Indeed, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Could we mention that at page 34, line 19, the
20 previous exhibit, I think, is incorrectly noted as P326. It should be
22 Mr. Neuner, that was an improvement over previous performances,
23 but still not within time, so there is room for continued improvement.
24 MR. NEUNER: I got a couple of objections, Your Honour, which
25 needed time.
1 JUDGE PARKER: We are aware of that so we let you run on a
2 little, yes.
3 We now need to take the second break, and we'll resume at 12.30.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.
7 [Closed session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 Mr. Djurdjic, you have some cross-examination?
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, my name is Veljko Djurdjic, and I'm
17 a member of the Defence team of the accused Vlastimir Djordjevic, and
18 Jelena Dzambazovic a member if the team is also with me, whereas
19 Mr. Djordjevic Dragoljub is absent, and his absence is excused.
20 Before we begin, since we are speaking the same language, in
21 order to be efficient, I would urge you to pay attention to the questions
22 that I put to you, wait for me to finish, and then provide an answer so
23 that the interpreters have an opportunity to interpret it in due time.
24 Mr. Witness, may I address you in this fashion?
25 I would like to start by asking you about your evidence today.
1 You have made many statements, and there were many problems with all
2 those statements, but right now at the outset I would like to put a few
3 questions to you, and please tell me why this is so:
4 First of all, can you -- do you have a recollection of the events
5 that you are testifying about? Is your recollection better now or at the
6 time when you made your statements in December 2002?
7 A. Well, the changes to my statements had to do with the wording,
8 mainly. Generally speaking, the events that I testified about --
9 Q. Please, listen to my question. I'm just asking you, is your
10 memory better today, as you are testifying, or in 2002 when you made the
12 A. My memory and my recollection of the events is the same, both now
13 and then.
14 Q. All right. Now let me ask you something else. You mentioned
15 several things today that you have not mentioned before, not in the
16 statements that you made to the Prosecutor on the 8th and -- 7th and 8th
17 of February, and I will point out those differences, and you tell me why
18 these omissions.
19 The first thing that you mentioned for the first time in your
20 supplemental sheet of 19 February 2009
21 machine-gun, a green-coloured vehicle, and you said that there was a
22 policeman on that vehicle. That's the first thing.
23 The second thing you mentioned for the first time is that you
24 went back to Korenice five or six days later and then you saw what you
25 saw in the village. And then toward the end of your evidence today, you
1 said that you were also in Korenice the next day, the following day, and
2 that's when you saw what you saw.
3 So how do you explain this, the first mention of these things
4 in -- on the 18th and 19th of February, 2009, and not having mentioned
5 that before?
6 A. Well, let me begin with the first thing. The house we are
7 talking about --
8 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry, can I just interrupt before the witness
9 is answering. I believe that this witness has not stated he went back to
10 Korenica the next days. If I remember correctly, he stated in his
11 evidence he went back a couple of days, about a week later, to Korenica.
12 JUDGE PARKER: That is not my recollection, Mr. Neuner. I think
13 Mr. Djurdjic is quoting the evidence correctly. Thank you.
14 Carry on, please, Mr. Djurdjic. The witness was in the process
15 of answering.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?
17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I'll start with the last
20 The house that I mentioned -- that I marked on the map.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Witness, please just answer my questions. There is no need
23 for you to repeat your evidence. I quoted your words. You said for the
24 first time the things that you mentioned in the -- to the Prosecutor on
25 the 18th and 19th, 2009. How come you said these things for the first
1 time now, without -- failing to mention them in 2002?
2 A. Probably no one asked me about these things.
3 Q. All right.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I take notes during
5 the evidence in chief, and I put questions based on those notes, and I
6 can only make an error by omission. I'm just saying this for the benefit
7 of my learned colleague Neuner.
9 A. You mentioned my name.
10 Q. I apologise.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Djurdjic.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
14 Q. Mr. Witness, speaking of the supplemental information sheet of
15 18th or 19th February, 2009, tell me, please, have you read in the
16 Serbian language the statement that was compiled and that is part of the
17 evidence that was entered into evidence?
18 A. When do you mean have I read it?
19 Q. Well, on the 18th and 19th of February.
20 A. Yes, I read it.
21 Q. All right. Let's move on. You state that you were born on the
22 date as stated. Just tell me, please, your mother and father, did you
23 live in the same household?
24 A. As of 1983 -- as of 1983, no, but we still have a joint
25 household. I still have a joint household with my brothers, but we all
1 live in different areas. My brother lives in one town, my other brother
2 in another, and I live in a third place, so that's about it.
3 Q. Could you tell me what schools you completed?
4 A. High school.
5 Q. Where and when?
6 A. In 1978, 1979, in Lebane.
7 Q. Could you tell me, did you serve in the army immediately after
8 your high school, or did you get a job?
9 A. Well, first I went to do my compulsory military service. Yes,
10 that was first.
11 Q. Could you tell me, sir, when and where did you complete your
12 military service, and what is your military specialty?
13 A. I was in Lebane. In 1981, I finished, I completed my military
14 service. I was serving on the border at the time. My military specialty
15 at the time was 11-107. And when I was employed in the army, I was in
16 the military police, and my military specialty was VES-101, or 11-101, I
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, we are getting a lot of potentially
19 identifiable material. If you're pursuing this line, we should move into
20 private session. The witness is protected and no identifying material
21 should be in the public record.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood, but I
23 thought that these were general questions that cannot identify the
24 witness because every man who -- every healthy man of military age serves
25 in the army. But I will be careful, and I will address Your Honours with
1 a special request for a closed session if there are some details that are
2 going to be revealed by the witness that could identify him.
3 Q. Now, Witness, please, you answered my question, but just tell me
4 this: When you returned from the army, where were you -- where were your
5 military records?
6 A. In Lebane.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. My military records are still in Lebane.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 In order to avoid mentioning details, I would like to ask you
11 this --
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please move
13 into closed session, just for this basic general information.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 1374-1383 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Witness, do you know that NATO aircraft were guided in the
2 following way: On the Albania
3 and on our side of the border, light signals were emitted.
4 A. That is possible, but I did not see that.
5 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that NATO bombed every day?
6 A. Absolutely. Several times, as a matter of fact.
7 Q. Am I right that you stated here that it happened at least twice a
8 day and sometimes even more, even 10 to 12 times a day?
9 A. "Twice" would be too mild.
10 Q. Tell me, from the time when you came to the area, did you have
11 any conflicts with the KLA, and where was the KLA then?
12 A. It was at Pastrik that we had our most conflict, when they took
13 this big rock out there, and then a guide from Leskovac got killed then.
14 At any rate, they'd start shooting, and then they'd run away, and then
15 they would start shooting, and then they'd run away. So that would be
16 about it. There wasn't any direct combat.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that there were incursions from the
18 territory of the Republic of Albania
19 was fighting there and -- please answer.
20 A. Well, if we exclude the situation, I mean what happened at
21 Pastrik and Kosur, in other places there were only minor incidents.
22 Kosur and -- what was the name? Oh, the place next to Prizren, I can't
23 remember now. Was it Planeja? I think that that would be right. I
24 don't think that I've made a mistake.
25 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did you have occasion to see tanks of the
1 Republic of Albania
2 A. Believe me, I saw them several times. I don't know whose tanks
3 they were. I don't know whose tanks they were, but I did see tanks
4 several times. And they consciously came to the border in order to
5 provoke a possible answer on the part of our army. I saw them
6 personally. At that time I was escorting Major Vukovic. I went to the
7 border very often and practically on a regular basis I saw them there,
8 moving in the territory of Albania
9 the border with us, that is.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Am I right if I say that you believed, or, rather, you said that
12 in your statements, that our troops were present at the border in very
13 small numbers? And in view of this opinion of yours, why do you actually
14 think so?
15 A. I mean, we weren't afraid of the Albanians that were on the other
16 side there at all. There could be strikes that would come from NATO.
17 There might be a ground invasion. I mean, if there were to be initial
18 combat, well, I don't think that with that many people you could stop a
19 land force that would be on the move with lots of equipment. But perhaps
20 in terms of initial fighting, well, yes. I mean, have I clarified this
22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now that you've mentioned Pastrik, I would
23 like to ask you whether perhaps you were in Kosur?
24 A. Yes, I was, one day and one night.
25 Q. May I conclude that that was also with the 2nd Motorised --
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 Tell me, am I right, and do you remember, that at the Cafa Pruse
4 boarder crossing, sometime towards the end of March, there were quite a
5 few civilians of Albanian ethnicity? And do you remember that your
6 commander went there, that part of the territory was de-mined so that
7 they could pass through that area? They insisted that they should cross
8 over, and you helped them cross safely?
9 A. Would you give me a minute so I can explain how this went. A
10 group of Albanians that was coming from the direction of Suva Reka and
11 from areas around Djakovica, I simply don't know on whose orders, but I
12 claim that none of us said that to them, they set out for Albania. And
13 then there was this very unpleasant situation. There's aircraft that
14 keep bombing all the time. On the other side there are minefields, and
15 they had almost entered the minefields.
16 The commander asked these people, I was there, to stay on --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please slow down.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I really am sorry. I do really
19 do apologise.
20 The commander asked these people to stay there. We gave them
21 food and water until these minefields were removed. All these people who
22 came from the interior of Kosovo, from any side, and who had passed part
23 of the territory that was under the control of the 2nd Battalion of our
24 unit, had water, food. We gave them everything that we could at that
25 moment. Now, whether they asked for that or not, I mean, that didn't
1 really matter. There were always people who gave them food and water.
2 I want to say that in Djakovica there was this kiosk where there
3 were --
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You have answered my question. Thank
7 Witness, am I right that if I say that at the time when you came
8 to Djakovica and to the border area, that due to NATO bombing the locals
9 from Deva, Guska, Babaj Boks, Lepovac, Grcin, Rogovo, Kusnin, and
10 Damjanin, left their villages and went to Djakovica and Prizren?
11 A. Sir, when I arrived there and when I first went to that side, I
12 mean facing the Deva border post, these people had already left. I did
13 not see them. They had probably left while I was still in Zub, while our
14 command most was still in Zub. They had probably left earlier on.
15 Q. Thank you. Am I correct in saying that the reasons why these
16 Albanian civilians left their villages in the border areas were the fear
17 of bombing, the fear of expected fighting between the KLA and the
18 Yugoslav Army, and fear of the KLA itself?
19 A. It is quite possible that you are right. For those people that
20 we helped -- that I know of who were transferred, as a soldier, as a
21 regular soldier --
22 Q. Please just answer whether I'm right or not. Just say yes or no
23 so that we can move on, because, you know, our time here is limited. We
24 cannot just chat here.
25 A. Well, it is very difficult to answer with a yes or no. If I say
1 yes, then my answer is incomplete, and if I say no, my answer is again
3 Q. Well, if you can answer with yes, then others will continue on
4 with questions and ask you about it.
5 A. Yeah, but that's not the same thing.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. Well, there is that possibility.
8 Q. Mr. Witness, do you know that NATO aircraft fired on civilians in
9 Gato [phoen], Meja, and the refugee centre on the Meje-Djakovica-Junik
11 A. Not in Meje, I'm sure of that. As for the other places, I don't
12 know. In Bistrazin, yes. In Meje, no.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Are you aware that villagers from the bordering villages, on the
15 borders with the Republic of Albania
16 and Zogaj, also withdrew from this territory so they wouldn't be near the
17 border with Serbia
18 A. Well, from what we could observe from our border post, there were
19 no Albanians on the Albanian side, so I don't know -- but I don't know
20 what happened there.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I would just have something to ask you
23 Do you know that at your command post in Prekovo --
24 A. Prekovac.
25 Q. Prekovac, I apologise.
1 All this time there was a group of Albanian civilians, and they
2 stayed there until the end of the war together with you.
3 A. Sir, we were in a village. If you mean policemen, Albanian
4 policemen, General Djordjevic will be better placed to explain what men
5 these were. Now do you remember when there was -- for a time there was
6 unit of police that was formed, their unit of police. But I don't know
7 exactly how it went, but they had weapons, and they took care of the
8 civilians. But to make a long story short, they were there together with
9 the civilians.
10 Q. Did you understand my question? I was asking you: Did Albanian
11 civilians remain in -- at your command post throughout the war, there
12 together with you?
13 A. Yes, but not only Albanian civilians, sir. There were also Serbs
14 from Prekovac and other villages who also withdrew to this area. Not
15 only Serbs but also Roma people, they all came there to be with us.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Do you know whether your commander established a platoon for the
18 protection of civilians? Please, if you do know, just don't mention any
20 A. If what you mean by that is a description of the houses where
21 people stayed and lived, maybe that's it.
22 Q. No. Listen to my question. Do you know whether your commander
23 had established a platoon for civilian protection?
24 A. No, I don't know. Maybe.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 Do you know that in early April, during the transfer of the
2 command post to the Prekovac village, you found an old man who was
3 bed-ridden of Albanian ethnicity and that you called an ambulance to
4 transfer him to a hospital?
5 A. I participated in this -- in this operation.
6 Q. Thank you. Now I would have a new set of questions, and they
7 have to do with your statements to the Prosecutor.
8 Tell me, please, how did you get in touch with the Prosecution?
9 A. It was very difficult. I actually reported to them. I was
10 really sorry that we withdrew from Kosovo, and then I contacted the
11 Prosecution because I wanted the whole thing to be clarified with the
12 late President Milosevic.
13 Q. Thank you. Now let's just clarify one thing. While you were
14 being proofed for today's evidence, were you shown any documents?
15 A. Only my statement, if you mean that by "documents."
16 Q. Other than that, any other documents, any maps or sketches?
17 A. No, no. Maybe the sketch that I made, that I drew when I was
18 here last, 1997, maybe. I don't know, maybe there was an error in that
19 sketch but --
20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. That's enough. Let's move on.
21 According to our information, you gave your first statement on
22 the 7th and 8th of December, in 2002.
23 A. That's possible. I'm not quite sure.
24 Q. Tell me, please, when you gave that statement, who was present
25 during your giving of the statement?
1 A. I know who the Prosecutor and the investigator was, but I don't
2 know who the interpreter was. I know there was this investigator
3 John Zdrilic, but I don't recall the name of the interpreter.
4 Q. How many days did this take, your witness interview?
5 A. I really don't remember.
6 Q. Was the same interpreter present throughout the interview?
7 A. Well, you're asking now that I remember something that happened
8 ten years ago. I really would love to help, but I can't recall.
9 Q. Well, I'm asking you whether you can remember now because I'd
10 like to remind you of what you said while you were testifying in the
11 Milutinovic case.
12 A. I remember.
13 Q. Well, please do repeat what you can remember.
14 A. Well, I think it was not the same interpreter throughout who was
15 present during this interview, but it does mean that it was not the same
16 person. I think it wasn't the same woman, but I'm not absolutely
17 certain. I can only say yes or no, but I have no proof. I can't
18 remember the name of the interpreter, and that's it.
19 Q. Mr. Witness, do you remember anything else that you said during
20 the proofing in the Milutinovic case, or would you like me to refresh
21 your memory by reading it to you?
22 A. Could you please read it.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please see
25 on the screens Exhibit -- a Prosecution Exhibit number 5118 on the 65 ter
1 list, and if it's easier, I can also quote the D number. I don't know
2 what is easier.
3 Mr. Registrar, what is the faster way?
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE PARKER: This is a transcript from a previous trial.
6 You'll have to be careful in what questions you ask from that because of
7 the content of some of it. It will not appear on the screens outside of
8 this courtroom, but your questions could be disclosing some material in
9 it that's important.
10 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I took a look at my
11 notes, and I think there are -- I think I have only two names, two
12 investigators, and the name of an interpreter. There are no other names,
13 but I will be careful.
14 Q. Witness, please be careful. Do not mention any name. So this
15 was the 30th of January, 2007, page 9367, lines 13 through 25.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] "Your Honour, when I made my
17 statement to the investigator, there was only one investigator and this
18 woman. Not the woman who signed the woman but another woman. And from
19 time to time a man would come in. He said what his name was, but I can't
20 remember it. He was only there occasionally, not throughout the
22 In response to the Judge's question, whether it was true that the
23 witness had been read back to you in your language, you said:
24 "I don't recall that it had been read back to me on that day, but
25 when I signed it, it may have or may not have. But if that was the case,
1 I'd like to correct it. And had been read back to me, I would have
2 corrected it. I'm certain of that. So I don't recall the statement
3 being read to me."
4 And then on page 9368, lines 14 through 23, in response to the
5 Judge's question:
6 "Is it possible that the statement was made on one day. On the
7 following day it was read over to you, and you signed it."
8 So this is on page 9368, lines 13 to 14:
9 "No, no, no. Not the next day, I'm sure, because the gentleman
10 who took the statement went back to his country, and then they came back
11 again. It was the new year, and then we saw each other in January or
12 February, I don't know exactly when, in front of Hotel M or in a park; if
13 it was the same day, in one of the parks in Belgrade, but certainly not
14 in the Tribunal office in Belgrade
15 then that the young lady who signed the statement was there. The first
16 time it was another lady from Belgrade
17 And then on page 9473, this is 65 ter 5118, 31st of January,
19 "I signed a statement. I don't recall. It was either in
20 Hotel M or in the park between Slavija and the government building of the
21 Republic of Serbia
22 I don't know if it was on the same day. I'm not sure. I had not
23 finished giving my statement at this time, and the woman from Belgrade
24 was there who translated this statement. And then when I signed the
25 statement, when I brought the photographs, there was a totally different
1 interpreter and a completely different man, not the man who interviewed
2 me in the beginning. This man could speak a little Serbian, too, not
3 only English, because he was born -- I think he's a Croat, but he lives
4 in Australia
5 name, "I don't know. I'm not sure. I think that's the name."
6 Now I've read all the answers that you gave in the Milutinovic
7 trial. Have I jogged your memory?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And let me put another thing to you. When, toward the end of the
10 trial, Mr. Hannis told you the name of the first investigator and the
11 second investigator - and again I'm not going to mention their names
12 because they might identify you - could you tell me now in relation to
13 this, since I jogged your memory, could you explain how everything
14 happened and where you actually signed the statement.
15 A. The gentleman I'm referring to, and from you read, the man that
16 you said could speak Serbian, that's the man I gave the statement to.
17 But as far as I can remember, I signed that statement where you said,
18 where you read that I had signed it. But now this was about seven years
19 ago, so it's hard to remember. But I am sure that I signed the statement
20 where you said, in the park.
21 Q. Well, Mr. Witness, please, let's clarify this. Based on what I
22 read to you, on the first day when you made your statement, you didn't
23 sign anything. Not only that you didn't sign anything, we also know the
24 date on the statement. There were two dates, 7th and 8th of December,
25 and you said that you only -- that this interview was only on one day,
1 but that's irrelevant. But then you said that in January, February, some
2 other men came and "then I signed the statement."
3 A. I really don't remember signing the statement on the first
4 occasion; I still think I didn't. But as for the second occasion, that's
5 correct, that's true.
6 Q. But, Witness, you also said that you will speak the truth in the
7 Milutinovic case, and I was just quoting what you said there. So you
8 said that at least two days later you signed the statement, but then I
9 will remind you of other words that you said. But is this correct?
10 First let me ask you this: Is what I read to you from the Milutinovic
11 trial correct?
12 A. Well, I don't remember what it was that I said.
13 Q. Well, it was on the screen right now, and I also read it out to
15 A. Well, it's possible that you read it to me, but I don't remember.
16 I know that I did sign one statement, and it's possible that it was a
17 month or a month and a half later, that's what I said then. It's
18 possible that I signed the statement then.
19 Q. Is the -- is your evidence in the Milutinovic trial true and
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I move to enter this -- well,
24 actually, the entire transcript has already been tendered into evidence,
25 so there is no need to propose its admission into evidence. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we just take a
2 short five-minute break?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. We will need to go into private session.
4 [Private session]
8 [Closed session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Witness, please do not mention any names. Tell me, tell me your
19 opinion about your commander, your war-time commander, as a commander and
20 as a human being.
21 A. Well, what can I say? I can only say all the best. He's an
22 excellent man, an excellent superior. All the best. I can only use
24 Q. Thank you. Witness, is it true, is it correct, that when you
25 came to the town where you spent your war time, that the commander told
1 you when you arrived that orders had to be complied with, that discipline
2 has to be respected, and that everyone who engages in illegal actions
3 will be taken to disciplinary -- will be disciplined and that measures
4 will be taken against them?
5 A. While we were still on the buses we were told that.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 We will do this later because I have to mention a name, and I
8 don't want to go into closed session now. I'll skip this part.
9 Let's take a look at paragraph 35 of your statement. Let me just
10 remind you, it's about the cafe in Brekovac where you were --
11 A. I was not sitting there.
12 Q. Well, I'm sorry, then, you'll have to correct me. But one of
13 your superiors was there and two inspectors?
14 A. Yes, and two other soldiers, but I wasn't there at the time. I
15 was nearby but not at the cafe itself.
16 Q. While reading your statement in paragraph 35, one could
17 conclude - and I don't want to read it out because of the name mentioned
18 there - but one can conclude that you were there, too, and the other
19 three and perhaps two or three other men. You mention also some other
20 names there. If you weren't there, would you tell us how all this
21 transpired and how you learnt about it?
22 A. Well, the cafe was here, and right next to it was another room
23 where I was, not in the cafe itself, but it was on the same premises, in
24 the same building. I was just a wall behind them. So I had some other
25 business to take care of, so I didn't sit with them. And I'm also -- I
1 don't drink, so that's why I wasn't with them.
2 Q. Well, I didn't say you were drinking --
3 A. I'm just saying I'm not a drinker, I don't drink alcohol, so I
4 wasn't sitting with them.
5 Q. Would you agree that that man and the two inspectors were drunk
6 on that occasion?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 Now I would be interested in the following: Who gave this
10 initiative to go and find the person who was being searched for?
11 A. The policemen.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 Am I right when I say that when you went to the third house in
14 Djakovica, that you were actually ambushed and that fire was opened at
15 you, and on that occasion one of these persons was injured?
16 A. It wasn't an ambush. It was a man. Now, was it the man we were
17 looking for or not, but anyway, it was someone who was shooting.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that I can
19 mention the name of the witness -- or, rather, the name of the person,
20 the person who is suspected of having opened fire on that occasion.
21 Q. Witness, will you agree with me that this person was a member of
22 the KLA, Chopi Albin [phoen]?
23 A. I really can't remember the name, but I don't rule that
24 possibility out. We were looking for a particular man, 20-something, but
25 I cannot remember his name now.
1 Q. I know the name of the inspector who was injured on that
2 occasion. Would it mean anything to you if I were to give you his name
3 and surname?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Thank you. And do you know that the investigating judge of the
6 municipal court in Djakovica went out there and that a record was made of
7 the on-site investigation with regard to the wounding of the inspector?
8 A. When?
9 Q. The following day.
10 A. I'm sure that nothing like that took place that night. I don't
11 know about the next day.
12 Q. Is it true that immediately after the wounding an air-strike
14 A. Perhaps a minute or two later, so it was precisely that part of
15 Cabrat that was being bombed, and we barely made it to down there where
16 the church is. We took these streets and bombs were falling all over the
17 place. So I don't know how many minutes had actually elapsed, but it was
18 a very, very short time.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 I'd like to go back to paragraph 35 again. I'm not going to
21 mention the name and surname of that officer who proposed that you
22 immediately go to that address of that man that was known until then and
23 to arrest him. Do you agree that this is incorrect in your statement?
24 A. What?
25 Q. The statement says the name and surname of that officer,
1 suggested that we go to the address of that person that was known until
2 then and to arrest him straight away. It wasn't his initiative, and the
3 statement seems to suggest that it was his initiative.
4 A. I cannot really find where that is written. Could you tell me
5 what paragraph that is.
6 Q. Paragraph 35, and the sentence is --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters.
8 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. In the fourth sentence, but the second part of it. Don't mention
10 the last name, though.
11 A. I don't really understand this at all. What it says here, the
12 first three -- uh-huh, I'm sorry. It says here:
13 "The first three were fairly drunk when the conversation turned
14 to the police attempts to locate an Albania man from Cabrat."
15 Q. Please read on.
16 A. "Very unprofessionally, and I think only because he was
17 drunk --"
18 Q. Don't mention the last name.
19 A. " [Previous translation continues] ... suggested that we
20 immediately attend the known addresses for this man and arrest him ..."
21 Uh-huh, now I understand your question.
22 I think that that is a consequence of what he had agreed to, I mean the
23 policemen who were sitting with him beforehand.
24 Q. I'm putting the question to you: Did he suggest to you that you
25 go there or somebody else?
1 A. The policeman suggested that, and he accepted.
2 Q. So it's not true that he's the one who suggested it. That's
3 what's written here.
4 A. Well, possibly, possibly it's incorrect. Well, if that's what's
5 written there, yes, yes. Oh, yeah, here it says the name suggested --
6 oh, okay, so that's not correct. I mean, it should have said "agreed."
7 Q. In relation to him that's quite a difference.
8 A. Oh, yes, a very important difference.
9 Q. Well, I think it's very important to be accurate.
10 A. "Agreed." "Agreed" would be the right word. I mean the
11 proposal, the suggestion, had come from the other side, so it would be
12 right to say "agreed." See, I read this statement so many times, and I
13 simply -- well, this never really crossed my mind.
14 Q. Witness, there are going to be other occasions to correct your
15 statement --
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] But I'm afraid that our tapes will
17 run out, Your Honours and ...
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic. We now need to
19 adjourn for the day. Our next sitting, I believe, is on Wednesday, in
20 the afternoon, so that we must adjourn until then.
21 I'm afraid we've got to adjourn now, and we continue on
22 Wednesday. The Court Officers will assist you in the time in between.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
25 February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.