1 Tuesday, 21 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 11.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
6 Ms. D'Ascoli, are you ready with the next witness?
7 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Next -- yes, next witness is Mr. Reshit Salihi and
10 his evidence relates to paragraphs 72(a) and 77 of the indictment.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic -- it's Mr. Djurdjic.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I wanted
16 to say something before the witness walked in. I just have this
17 particular observation since we've had this 20-day break. It seems to me
18 that the way in which these 92 bis witnesses are being heard - the
19 witness can sit down, it doesn't matter - I think that they are getting a
20 new meaning.
21 I have received some documents today translated into Serbian,
22 three pages, 20 or 30 paragraphs of changes with completely new evidence
23 that hasn't been used until now at all. It seems to me that the spirit
24 of Rule 92 bis is being - well, how should I put it? - evaded. Maybe
25 we're moving on to 92 ter territory. That's the only thing I wish to
1 say. Thank you.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We will look at that at a convenient
4 Good morning, sir.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please repeat after me. I solemnly
7 declare ...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare ...
9 JUDGE PARKER: ... that I will speak the truth ...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... that I will speak the
11 truth ...
12 JUDGE PARKER: ... the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... the whole truth and nothing
14 but the truth.
15 WITNESS: RESHIT SALIHI
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Now Ms. D'Ascoli has some questions for you.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, thanks, Your Honours.
21 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
22 Q. Good morning, Witness, could you please state your full name for
23 the record.
24 A. Reshit Salihi.
25 Q. And could you please state your date and place of birth.
1 A. 1947, I was born in Celine, in February.
2 Q. On which day in February?
3 A. Yes, in February.
4 Q. Do you remember the day?
5 A. No, I'm not educated.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Which is your current occupation, Mr. Salihi?
7 A. Farmer.
8 Q. And where are you living at the moment?
9 A. In Celine.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salihi, did you provide a statement to the
11 Office of the Prosecutor in April 1999 and then an addendum in January
13 A. In Tirana.
14 Q. Yes. Do you remember if you provided a statement to the OTP?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And have you recently had the opportunity to review this
17 statement? Was this statement read back to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And during this review I remember that -- on the -- you indicated
20 that the year of your birth indicated on the front page of this statement
21 was not corrected because for the record this is the 65 ter number 02336.
22 And the front page of this -- of the statement containing the witness's
23 information reports that Mr. Salihi's date of birth is the
24 15th of February but 1940 rather than 1947.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That number is wrong. I was born
1 in 1947 in February.
2 MS. D'ASCOLI:
3 Q. Perfect. Thank you. And, Mr. Salihi, other than that with this
4 correction, are you satisfied that the information contained in your
5 statement is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
6 A. It is true and correct because I saw everything.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I seek to tender this statement, and
9 it is the 65 ter number 02336.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00632, Your Honours.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thanks.
13 Q. Mr. Salihi, do you remember you also testified about the same
14 events in the Milutinovic et al. case in September 2006?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And have you recently had the opportunity to review your previous
17 testimony? Was this testimony read back to you recently?
18 A. [No interpretation]
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch what the witness
20 said. Could the witness be asked to sit closer to the microphone,
22 MS. D'ASCOLI:
23 Q. Mr. Salihi, could you please sit closer to the microphone. Thank
24 you. And could you please repeat the answer to my question, and I had
25 just asked you whether this -- your previous testimony in Milutinovic was
1 recently read back to you. Could you please answer.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you very much. We just had a problem with the
5 And, Mr. Salihi, does this transcript of your testimony
6 accurately reflect your evidence, and would you testify to the same fact
7 or in the same way today?
8 A. Yes, everything is correct, and I will say the same things today
9 that I said then.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this transcript
12 into evidence, and it is the 65 ter number 05029.
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00633, Your Honours.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thanks.
16 And I will now read a summary of this witness's evidence.
17 The witness describes the attack by Serb forces on the village of
18 Celine in Orahovac municipality in March 1999. On the early morning of
19 the 25th of March, 1999, Serb forces started shelling the village of
20 Celine, looting and burning houses. Following this attack, part of the
21 witness's family fled and left the house and family compound, while the
22 witness remained there with some other family members.
23 In the afternoon, as a group of policemen approached the
24 witness's house, one of the witness's brothers was killed in front of the
25 witness by a burst of automatic fire. The witness went hiding in the
1 neighbourhood and later he fled to the forest where he remained there for
2 three days until a group of policemen arrived to the forest.
3 The policemen separated women and children from men, searched and
4 robbed people, and then marched them back to the village at gun point.
5 They were then forced to walk in a convoy in the direction of Prizren.
6 The witness describes that after a march of about 30 minutes, a
7 large number of trucks arrived. The police forced the villagers to board
8 the trucks and transported them to Zhur, where they were ordered off the
9 trucks and told to walk to Albania
10 were then brought to a refugee camp in Tirana.
11 And this is the end of the in-court summary. I will now proceed
12 with some questions.
13 Q. Mr. Salihi, as you know, the Trial Chamber already has before it
14 your previous testimony and statements, so I will just have a few
15 questions for you. In your statement at page 2, paragraph 4, for the
16 record, you referred to the shelling of your village, Celine, by Serb
17 forces on the 25th of March, 1999, and you say that after the shelling
18 Serb ground forces, I quote, "dressed in black uniforms entered the
20 Can I just ask you who these Serb ground forces were or if you
21 could define them better, please.
22 A. Yes, they were Serb police.
23 Q. And can you tell us what these forces did when they entered the
25 A. They entered the village. They started burning the village.
1 They killed people and looted the houses.
2 Q. Also in your statement exactly you mentioned that the Serbs set
3 fire to houses and buildings in the village, and I wanted to ask you
4 whether this is something that you saw with your eyes, the fact that they
5 were burning and looting houses?
6 A. Yes, I did see them with my own eyes.
7 Q. And where were you located on the 25th of March, in the morning,
8 when you observed all of this?
9 A. At home. Because I could see the village, and I saw the infantry
10 and the police when they entered, when they set the houses on fire, when
11 they looted the houses, et cetera.
12 Q. Okay. And can you tell us to which ethnicity these houses were
13 belonging, the houses that were looted and burned?
14 A. Albanians. Serbs never lived in our village, in Celina.
15 Q. So there were no Serbs living in Celine I understand; right?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salihi, in your statement - and for the record
18 this is page 3, paragraph 3, and I think in the B/C/S version it's the
19 beginning of page 4 - you described how, in the evening of the
20 25th of March, you fled to the nearby forest and then you remained there
21 for three days. Can I ask you whether there were other people also
22 gathered there?
23 A. The whole village was there, but there were also refugees from
24 nearby villages that had fled their villages.
25 Q. And do you know why those people were there, why they had to flee
1 the other villages?
2 A. Because their houses were burning and the people of that -- those
3 villages did not have anywhere else to go.
4 Q. And do you remember from which villages they had to flee?
5 A. Yes. From Krusha e Madhe, Hoxha, Brestovc, Nagavci.
6 Q. Thank you. While you were hiding in the forest in those days,
7 could you hear or see anything from there?
8 A. We could hear the shots from the village, the houses were
9 burning, we could see the smoke billowing from the houses.
10 Q. Mr. Salihi, let's now move to the moment in which the policemen
11 arrived, separated women and children from men, and then they brought you
12 back to the village of Celine
13 Can I ask you what -- if you saw anything while passing through
14 Celine while you were brought back to the village, if you remember?
15 A. We couldn't see anything. We couldn't look up. We were
16 isolated, we were surrounded, and we couldn't look around.
17 Q. Were you escorted while you were brought back to the village?
18 A. Every 10 or 20 metres there was a different group of policemen,
19 and they continued beating people up and ill treating them.
20 Q. So I understand you didn't have the chance of looking what was
21 going on in the village, given the conditions in which you were ...
22 A. No, I didn't have a chance to see what was going on, but the
23 village was on fire.
24 Q. You remember seeing this fire around while you were walking
25 or ...
1 A. Yes, yes. We could see the flames, the smoke, everything.
2 Q. Mr. Salihi, you were then transferred by trucks to Zhur and then
3 ordered by the police to walk to Albania
4 happened at the border before entering Albania?
5 A. We were asked to hand over the IDs or any other documents. There
6 were no problems there.
7 Q. And did you do that, did you hand over your IDs at that moment at
8 the border?
9 A. I handed over my document when I was in the Pisjak mountain, and
10 at the border I did not have any ID or any money on me.
11 Q. Okay. So at that moment you couldn't hand over your ID because
12 you had done that already before in Celine?
13 A. I did not have it, no.
14 Q. Okay. I understand. Do you remember when you returned to Kosovo
15 from Albania
16 A. Yes. Three months later.
17 Q. And can you tell us what you found when you returned to your
18 village in Celine three months later?
19 A. There was nothing in the -- left in the village. Whatever was
20 there before was burnt, everything, the houses and everything in them had
21 been burnt.
22 Q. And what about your house and your family compound?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What did happen to your house and your family compound? Which
25 were the conditions in which you found them when you returned to Celine?
1 A. The houses were all burnt, as I said. When we went back we
2 stayed in tents that we had received in Albania because we couldn't live
3 in the houses.
4 Q. So also your house was burned and destroyed?
5 A. It had been razed to the ground.
6 Q. Okay. Mr. Salihi, was there a mosque in Celine?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what about the mosque, how did you find the mosque when you
9 returned to your village, in which condition was it?
10 A. The mosque had been razed to the ground as well.
11 Q. Did you see this with your eyes of course?
12 A. Yes -- now -- yes.
13 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'd like to call up the 65 ter number 02445,
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you -- may I?
17 MS. D'ASCOLI:
18 Q. Can you see the photograph on the screen, Mr. Salihi?
19 A. Yes, yes, I can see it. Can I show you? Can I point?
20 Q. Oh, I would like to ask you whether you recognise what's depicted
21 in this picture first of all.
22 A. Here you can see the wall, the surrounding wall, and the two
24 Q. What's in the picture ? What can you see in the picture, first
25 of all, besides the wall?
1 A. The mosque itself.
2 Q. Which mosque is this, if you recognise it?
3 A. The mosque in Celine.
4 Q. And how can you recognise it?
5 A. According to the picture, it looks like that.
6 Q. You were mentioning the trees and the walls. Do these elements
7 mean anything to you?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. So I take it that this was the way in which the mosque in Celine
10 looked like before its destruction?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this photograph
14 into evidence, please. It's 65 ter number 02445.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00634, Your Honours.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI:
19 Q. Mr. Salihi, how many members of your family were killed in Celine
20 on the 25th of March, 1999?
21 A. Eight.
22 Q. And we're talking about your brother, Bajram; your brother Faik;
23 his wife and five children; right?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And do you know -- also know what happened to the Zeqiri family
1 who joined you in your family compound on the 25th of March?
2 A. They were together with us, and they were there as well.
3 Q. And did you find out when you returned to Celine what happened to
5 A. When we went back, they were dead.
6 Q. Were their bodies found anywhere?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And can you tell us where exactly if you know, if you remember?
9 A. Yes. They were in the yard where they were killed, and a group
10 of people that had remained in the village had buried them; and when we
11 went back we found them.
12 Q. And do you mean both the bodies of the Zeqiri families -- do you
13 mean the bodies of the Zeqiri family?
14 A. Yes, the Zeqiri family and my family because they were together.
15 Q. Okay. So I understand their bodies were found together in the
16 yard where supposedly they were killed?
17 A. At the same place.
18 Q. And what happened then?
19 A. There was a foreign team there when we exhumed them. We gave
20 them notes about the people who had been killed, then they were returned
21 to us; and we reburied them in the village.
22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Salihi, for having answered my
24 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I don't have further questions for
25 this witness.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 Mr. Djurdjic, do you cross-examine?
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, yes.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Salihi. I am Veljko Djurdjic,
6 member of the Defence team for the accused, Vlastimir Djordjevic.
7 Together with me is Ms. Marie O'Leary, member of the team.
8 I will ask you to listen to me carefully so that we finish this
9 examination as soon as possible. Since our conversation is being
10 translated into several languages, I would kindly ask you to give me an
11 answer once I've put my question.
12 Bearing in mind the problems related to the year of your birth,
13 it's been almost ten years since you gave your statement in Tirana, and
14 it is only now that we establish that you were born seven years later.
15 And to this day you don't know what the actual date of your birth was.
16 However, do you know whether you were before -- born before or after the
17 Second World War?
18 A. That I don't know. I was born in 1947. I really don't know when
19 the Second World War or Third World War was. Maybe you do know that.
20 Q. Thank you, but could you tell me whether you attended school at
21 any point in time?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me what is your mother tongue?
24 A. Albanian.
25 Q. Thank you. I will now start at the end of the
1 examination-in-chief by my learned friend. You ended with your answer by
2 saying that members of your family and the Zeqiri family were buried in
3 the yard of your family property; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Thank you. And do you know who buried them?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. And you noted now that a team came and exhumed the
8 bodies; am I right -- or to be more specific, not exhumed them but dug
9 them out?
10 A. Yes. Every parent gave the details of their family members, and
11 then the foreigners took the bodies away to Rahovec.
12 Q. Thank you. Was the location where the exhumation was carried out
14 A. Yes. The foreigners took photographs.
15 Q. I think this is the third trial that you're testifying at. Were
16 you able to see the photographs in the courtroom? Were you shown those
18 A. Even if they show me these photographs, I cannot say anything
19 about them. I haven't finished any school, as you know. I cannot mark
21 Q. Thank you. Now I would like us to look at Exhibit 634. It was
22 admitted into evidence a little while ago.
23 Mr. Salihi, is there a mosque without the minaret?
24 A. Ours had a minaret.
25 Q. Well, have you ever seen a mosque without the minaret?
1 A. No, I didn't go around to see any other mosques. I had one in my
3 Q. Thank you. Well, how was your mosque different from other
4 mosques, apart from the fact that it was in your village?
5 A. I can tell that this is our mosque from the entrance to the yard,
6 from the surrounding wall, and from the two trees.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, would you agree with me that you cannot see the
8 yard on this photograph?
9 A. No, you cannot see the yard for the moment.
10 Q. Thank you. And on this photograph you're able to recognise the
11 mosque by the wall, the wall that is here on the outside?
12 A. Yes, based on that and the two trees that are shown on the
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salihi. Well, you can't actually see the mosque.
15 You can only see the minaret and whatever is next to it.
16 A. You can see the building of the mosque too a little bit.
17 Q. Well, just a little bit. Yes, I agree with you.
18 You've told us that the people fled into the woods because their
19 houses had been torched. Well, how could they all gather in the same
20 place, people from different villages. You mentioned Nagavci, Krusa,
21 Brestovac, if I'm not mistaken, your village?
22 A. Listen, people were fleeing their homes. They were going to
23 family's in-laws with their families. So when the houses were set on
24 fire, everybody with their families left for the mountain of Pisjak
25 Q. Well, that's what I'm asking you. How come that you were all in
1 the same place, yet Orahovac was nearby as far as I know and Prizren was
2 close by, Pirane, Zrze? So how come that you all headed into the
3 mountains towards Mount Pisjak
4 A. It was impossible for the people to move around. They were all
5 looking for shelter. We were surrounded from all sides.
6 Q. And how do you know about the other villages, Brestovac; Krusa,
7 Velika, Mala; and Nagavci?
8 A. Not Krusha e Vogel but Krusha e Madhe. As I said earlier, people
9 had families in villages and that's where they took shelter. They had
10 nowhere else to go.
11 Q. Thank you. You said Mount Pisjak
12 geographical maps and I never found this name, this mountain. Could you
13 please tell me how far is this Mount Pisjak
14 where you sought shelter in the woods that you called Pisjak?
15 A. As far as I know, it's about 2 kilometres away. I didn't measure
16 the distance, but this should be the approximate distance.
17 Q. Thank you. We will go back to some photographs later, and we
18 will perhaps be able to determine that with some precision. Mr. Salihi,
19 you told us you were a farmer. Was your father a farmer too?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Was your father alive in 1999 when the war broke out?
22 A. No. He died 25 years earlier.
23 Q. Thank you. If I am right, you had six brothers?
24 A. Yes, you're right.
25 Q. Thank you. Were all brothers alive in 1999 when the war broke
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. And were your other brothers farmers too?
4 A. Yes, all of them.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, could you tell me, after your grandfather died,
6 was the property divided?
7 A. No, we have all the property together.
8 Q. Thank you. I think you understand me correctly. I wasn't asking
9 you about the father's property, but your inheritance from your
10 grandfather. So was there a division of property or did you all live
11 together in a commune of sorts?
12 A. We own everything together.
13 Q. Thank you. So can I then conclude that with your uncles and
14 their children and your family, that you all lived in a commune?
15 A. Everybody has his house, but we live all together.
16 Q. Thank you. Who was the head, the elder, of the commune?
17 A. You mean from my brothers?
18 Q. Yes, or uncles, whatever.
19 A. My brother Bajram was the eldest.
20 Q. Thank you. How many houses were there in your family property?
21 A. Six brothers, six houses.
22 Q. Thank you. What was the surface area of that place where the
23 houses were?
24 A. About 20 acres.
25 Q. Thank you. And now around this family compound where the houses
1 were, was there a wall dividing the compound from the rest of the place?
2 A. Miftar Zeqiri who was my neighbour and still is, he had his own
3 wall too.
4 Q. Thank you. And was there a gate whereby one entered into your
5 family compound?
6 A. Everyone can enter his house from the main road through an
8 Q. Thank you. How tall was the wall?
9 A. Listen, I didn't measure it, but it's less than 2 metres I would
11 Q. Thank you. And what was the gate made of?
12 A. I don't understand your question. You mean the door built within
13 the wall or ... ?
14 Q. Yes, yes, the ones that were built into the wall and that opened
15 to allow entrance into your family property.
16 A. Wooden gate.
17 Q. Thank you. And what was the wall made of?
18 A. Bricks, red bricks.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you have any agricultural machinery?
20 A. We had horses. We used them to work on the land.
21 Q. Thank you. And did you perhaps have a truck or some passenger
23 A. No, we didn't.
24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salihi, as regards the division of labour, your
25 contribution to this commune was only to work the land, or did you go to
1 other places to sell the produce?
2 A. Yes, on the market and everywhere where we could win or earn our
3 bread. We didn't choose the work.
4 Q. Thank you. Can I then conclude that you left Celine to go to
5 other places; and if yes, can you tell me what places you went to?
6 A. Prizren, Gjakove, and Rahovec.
7 Q. Thank you. How much land did you own?
8 A. 2 hectares.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have on our screens
11 the Defence document D002-5633.
12 Q. Mr. Salihi, can you tell us this road that we can see on the
13 right-hand side of this photograph, do you know where this road leads to?
14 A. As I said in the earlier -- as I said earlier, I cannot help you
15 with this because I haven't finished any school. I cannot mark it.
16 Q. Mr. Salihi, I didn't ask you to mark anything. I just asked you
17 to tell me. You can see as well as anyone else, so I'm just asking you
18 whether you know this. And you live there, you say that you travelled to
19 Djakovica and to Prizren, so this is the photograph of Celine and the
20 area around it. So -- okay, I'm not going to ask you about the road, but
21 could you tell me, you see the village of Celine
22 A. Please, I cannot distinguish between the roads because I cannot
23 read the map. I cannot tell anything on this photograph.
24 Q. Thank you. Well I'm not going to ask you anything about the
25 roads, but could you show where your house in Celine was?
1 A. I cannot help you at all.
2 Q. Very well, but can you help me, can you tell me where your house
3 was in Celine?
4 A. I really don't understand your question. I'm here to tell you
5 about what I went through, what I experienced. This is the main purpose
6 I'm here.
7 Q. Yes, Mr. Salihi, that's precisely why I'm asking you these
8 questions. I want you to tell me where your house in Celine was because
9 as far as I can recall from your statements you talk about that house,
10 not only your house but other buildings, houses that belonged to other
11 people, and I'm going to be asking you questions about those too.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours. I'm sorry to interrupt.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. D'Ascoli.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'm sorry to interrupt. I think that the witness
15 has already answered and has indicated that he cannot help with this map.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Counsel is entitled to explore whether he has any
17 visual recognition of the picture depicted by the map.
18 Carry on, please.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
20 accepted the fact that the witness is unable to visually recognise things
21 here, so we have to take the long road here. I'm asking him on the basis
22 of his life in the village where the house was, and then I will have to
23 determine where other buildings were and whether he could -- well, I want
24 to check, verify, his statement. Maybe he doesn't want to answer my
25 questions, then let him say so; and I will not insist on the answer. But
1 then it's a whole different situation.
2 Q. Mr. Salihi, do you understand me? Forget about the map.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Please remove the map from the
5 Q. I'm asking you where your family property was in the village of
7 A. I don't know what is going on. As I said, I cannot read the map,
8 I cannot pin-point my house on the map because that would be a lie, and
9 I'm not here to lie.
10 Q. Thank you. I'm sure that you have come here to tell the truth,
11 so could you please tell me where your house, your family property, in
12 Celine was?
13 A. Yes, I can describe it using words. It was on the lower part,
14 the part that connects Krusha e Madhe and Celine. And there is a river
15 separating us. This is what I can say as far as the location of my house
16 is concerned.
17 Q. Thank you. How far from your house was the railroad?
18 A. I mentioned the river, right, the Krusha river? Is this what you
19 have in mind?
20 Q. No, I'm asking you about the railway tracks, how far were they
21 from your house?
22 A. Now I understand it, the railway tracks, about 1.000 metres away.
23 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me the Prizren-Djakovica road, how
24 far was it from your house?
25 A. The road is close to the railway tracks, the asphalt road.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, please tell me, your house, where was it in
2 relation to the Nagavci road?
3 A. It's very close to us. We -- our fields are close to each other.
4 It's not very far.
5 Q. Thank you. You were referring to the land that you farmed, and I
6 was talking about your house and the Nagavci road, so just to get some
7 bearings here. So how far is that road from your house?
8 A. You have to go through Krusha e Madhe, then to Nagavc, and then
9 Hoxha, Brestovc, Rahovec, that's the direction of the road.
10 Q. Thank you. Is your house on the Nogavac road?
11 A. No, no, we live in Celine.
12 Q. Well, I understand that, but I'm asking you whether your house
13 was on the road leading to Nogavac, and if not if you could explain to us
14 where the road leading to Nogavac was.
15 A. You have to go to the main road of Celine, go through
16 Krusha e Vogel, and then turn to Nagavc.
17 Q. Thank you. Let's clear this up. The black-top road from Prizren
18 to Djakovica has an off-shoot that leads to Celine; am I right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. This road that veers from the main road to go to Celine, it's not
21 a black-top road, it's a dirt road; am I right?
22 A. Yes, that's what it used to be, but now it is asphalted.
23 Q. Thank you. But now tell me, the road from Celine to Bela Crkva,
24 was there some kind of a local road?
25 A. Yes, because the Celine road is linked to Bellacerke.
1 Q. But -- now, where was your house in relation to that road?
2 A. The road to Bellacerke, not to Krusha.
3 Q. Yes, yes, to Bela Crkva.
4 A. No, not towards Bellacerke -- if you go to the main road, yes,
5 but not otherwise.
6 Q. My previous question - and this is why I followed up on it - is:
7 Was there a local road linking Celine with Bela Crkva?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Now, my follow-up question was: Where was your house in relation
10 to this local road going from Celine to Bela Crkva?
11 A. It's far away from that road.
12 Q. Thank you. Well, if you agree with me, Bela Crkva is to the west
13 of Celine?
14 A. Bellacerke is next to Rahovec.
15 Q. Very well, but the main road from Prizren to Djakovica - and
16 given the location of the village of Celine
17 of the village that is closer to the main road, that would be the
18 southern part of the village, is this where your house is?
19 A. No, it's not close to the main road. We're in the upper part of
20 the village.
21 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me where is the school in relation
22 to your family compound?
23 A. The school is further up. It's above the village.
24 Q. Thank you. And where is the mosque in relation to your house?
25 A. Yes, it is beyond the school.
1 Q. Thank you. And if you take the road, how far is from your house
2 to the school building?
3 A. It's quite a bit of a walk.
4 Q. Thank you. And am I right if I say that it takes even longer to
5 walk to the mosque from your house?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell me if you know whether there is a
8 village leader in Celine?
9 A. I don't think there is.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you ever attend any meeting that was attended by
11 all the heads of all the families in Celine?
12 A. There were no meetings of that sort.
13 Q. Thank you. And do you know a person by the name of Agim Jemini?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you see him in The Hague
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know where his house was in Celine?
18 A. Yes, I do. He does not live close to me.
19 Q. And could you tell us where he lives?
20 A. You mean Agim?
21 Q. Yes, yes.
22 A. He lives in the same village in his own house.
23 Q. Thank you. That's what you told us, but where is his house in
24 relation to your house? Could you explain that.
25 A. I did say that he lives far from my house, yes.
1 Q. And could you explain to us what you mean when you say that it is
2 far away from your house? Could you be more specific.
3 A. I did not measure the distance. He lives on the road that links
4 my place to the main road, and that's where he lives. I have to go on
5 that road in order to get to the main road.
6 Q. Thank you. This is when you go in one direction, and if you go
7 in the opposite direction from his house, where does that road lead to?
8 A. There is only one road. It doesn't go anywhere else. This road
9 passes by Agim's house and there is no other road.
10 Q. So if I understand you correctly, it leads to the main
11 Prizren-Djakovica road?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in the opposite direction, so if you're not going towards
14 Agim's house, so if you go to the left or uphill, wherever this road
15 leads to, where does it end?
16 A. It links with Krusha, so that's where it ends, in Krusha.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salihi, in paragraph 2 of your statement you say:
18 "Up until March this year, my family and myself were able to live
19 relatively normally in light of the overall situation in Kosovo."
20 Could you tell us what the situation was, and what do you mean
21 when you say that you were able to live relatively normally?
22 A. Well, up until the time when what I described happened, we lived
24 Q. Thank you. May I conclude that up until the war you lived a
25 normal life?
1 A. Yes, normal life. We did have problems, a lot of problems
2 earlier, but not the kind of problems we had then.
3 Q. Thank you. Further on in the same paragraph you say:
4 "In actual fact, because there were no Serbs in the area where
5 our village is, the problems that occurred in Kosovo for the most part
6 did not affect our lives."
7 Could you explain this to me. What does that mean, what you
9 A. Yes, I can explain. There were no Serbs living in Celine at any
11 Q. All right. So why were there no problems then, or rather, why
12 are there problems when there are Serbs there, do you know?
13 A. No, I did not say that. The problems happened on the 25th, after
14 they came.
15 Q. I would like us to move on faster, but again I have to read part
16 of your statement to you. In paragraph 2 you said:
17 "In fact, as there were no Serbs living in our village area, our
18 lives were more or less untouched by the troubles going on in Kosovo."
19 Could you explain that to me? Does that mean there are problems
20 if there are Serbs there; and if there are no Serbs there, there are no
22 A. No. Even those places where Serbs lived, they did not have any
23 problems really, before.
24 Q. So can we conclude then that this part of your statement was
1 A. It has not been understood correctly --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Correction:
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why has it not been understood?
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You told me that there were no problems with the Serbs, without
6 the Serbs, and that this was wrongly written up in your statement, what I
7 read out to you, that that's not what you said, that those who compiled
8 the statement - because you did not compile it - compiled it the wrong
10 A. Listen, they did not make a mistake. In Celine there were no
11 Serbs living there, and we did not have any problems. And each village,
12 whether they had problems or not, they know about their own problems. I
13 don't know about everything that happened in Kosova. I did not say
14 anything about the rest of the country.
15 Q. You said because there are no Serbs that the problems that were
16 occurring in Kosovo for the most part did not affect your life. That is
17 what you said. Now I'm asking you: What were the problems that existed
18 in places where there were Serbs, those that affected lives in Kosovo?
19 A. I don't know why you're delving into these things. I don't
21 Q. Thank you. I'm just reading your own statement out. I'm not
22 doing anything else. Since you cannot explain this to me, let us move
24 A. I cannot respond here about events in other villages. I am here
25 to describe the events in my village. I am here to testify about them.
1 I cannot testify about things that happened in other villages in Kosova.
2 Q. Is it correct that you mentioned problems to those who you
3 talked, that you mentioned problems that happened in Kosovo and that did
4 not affect you and your life because there were no Serbs there. Is that
5 what you said or is that not what you said?
6 A. What I said is there were no Serbs in my village and there were
7 no problems. This is what I said.
8 Q. Thank you. How did you find out that the war had started?
9 A. Well, the war started on the 25th of March - I will never forget
10 that - when we woke up in the morning we were surrounded on all sides.
11 Police and army forces had surrounded Celine, and then everything that I
12 described earlier happened. They started burning, massacring. The
13 police did all that, not the army. I want to emphasize that.
14 Q. Thank you. Please go ahead and say whatever else you have to
15 say, but I would kindly ask you to answer my questions so that we would
16 keep this cross-examination as short as possible.
17 So my question was: How was it that you found out that the war
18 had started, if you had found out at all that is?
19 A. I don't know about generally. I know about the things you asked
20 me about in my village.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell me, you still remember some dates from that
22 period to this day; am I not right?
23 A. What dates?
24 Q. March 1999, for example.
25 A. Yes, that one, yes.
1 Q. I'm asking you right now what was it that made you remember some
2 particular dates, how come you remembered them?
3 A. I remember those dates because we suffered all the evils
4 possible, the whole Kosovan population.
5 Q. Thank you. You said to me a few moments ago that you woke up in
6 the morning. What time was it when you got up?
7 A. Listen, I did not look at my watch; however, I have to say here,
8 as I said the other times I was here, I did not look at my watch, I don't
9 know what the exact time was. It was in the morning.
10 Q. Thank you. At that time did you wear a wrist-watch?
11 A. No, I did not keep a watch.
12 Q. Thank you. I have to ask you about the time because that is
13 interesting. There are many exact hours that are referred to in your
14 statement, 8.00, 9.00, 10.00 in the evening, so that's why I'm asking
15 you. Please don't hold it against me. Now that you've said this, I'm
16 not going to ask you about any particular point in time. So what you had
17 said was that it was the morning. So may I conclude that it had dawned?
18 A. I said whether it was 5.00 or 6.00 or 7.00 in the morning I don't
19 know, I did not look at the clock or watch.
20 Q. Thank you. You didn't look at your watch or clock, but was it
21 daylight when you got up?
22 A. Yes, it was daylight when we woke up.
23 Q. Thank you. Where is your room in the house that you live in?
24 A. How can I describe it to you? I don't know.
25 Q. All right, let's try to deal with this some other way. I'll put
1 questions and you give me answers. Does -- do you live in a one-storey
2 house, is there just a ground floor?
3 A. My house is G-shaped.
4 Q. Thank you. Since there are several houses there, is your house
5 the one that's the closest to the road or what is its position in
6 relation to the other houses?
7 A. Close to the road.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you leave the house when you woke up, on the
9 25th of March as you said?
10 A. I told my children to leave, and I stayed at home myself.
11 Q. Please let's do this slowly. You said that you had woken up,
12 that it was day-time. I'm asking you whether you left your house or
13 whether you just stayed there in your house.
14 A. I was in the yard.
15 Q. Thank you. As you say in your statement, you saw the army
16 surrounding the area of the village?
17 A. Yes. I went to my brother's house, the one that was killed. His
18 father is a little bit further up. And from the yard I could see the
19 army. Above the mosque they also had tanks. I also described this in my
20 statement. And they started shelling and shooting. They did not cause
21 any damage to the population, but later the police came in groups, they
22 burned the houses, they killed people, and they looted. The army did not
23 cause any damage to the village; the police forces did, and this is why
24 I'm here, to testify, to describe the things that really happened and
25 nothing else.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salihi. Please give me short answers and only to
2 the questions that I'm putting to you. What you talked about just now
3 was very extensive, but I didn't really ask you about anything about any
4 of this. Let me just ask you another thing before the technical break.
5 Why did you go up there to your brother's house?
6 A. I went to my brother's house to see what was going on in the
7 village. That's why I went there. I just went to another house in my
8 village. That is all.
9 Q. Thank you. And how was it that you knew that something was going
10 on in the village?
11 A. But we were surrounded. There was shelling, and we could hear
12 shots, so we knew that something was going on. We saw them with our own
13 eyes. I'm not lying here.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I think
15 it is time for the technical break now.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
17 We must have a break now, and we will resume in half an hour, at
19 There is a consternation that this may be the equivalent of the
20 lunch break. We will resume at 1.15.
21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Salihi, you told us a little while ago that you left your
1 home in the morning and that you went to your brother's house. Could you
2 tell me, what were you wearing when you left the house?
3 A. Normal clothes, as I am wearing now.
4 Q. Thank you. After you left the house in the morning and until you
5 left your family property, did you go back to your house at any point in
7 A. We were staying together. Our houses are one after the other,
8 next to each other. My brothers have a house just like I do.
9 Q. Thank you. What did you intend to do? What would you have done
10 had the events that unfolded not unfolded?
11 A. I would have gone and worked on the field.
12 Q. Thank you. And how were you dressed?
13 A. Well, I was not wearing a suit probably, but normal clothes.
14 Q. Thank you. When you saw there, further up from the village by
15 the mosque, when you saw those forces, what did you do?
16 A. Nothing. We just observed what they were doing. What else could
17 we do?
18 Q. Thank you. In addition to what you explained to us that you saw,
19 did you see the forces anywhere else?
20 A. The whole village was surrounded by Serb forces, army and police.
21 Q. Thank you. How do you know that?
22 A. We could see that. We experienced that.
23 Q. Could you tell me what is it that you went through?
24 A. Well, we were just staying there when they started shelling,
25 killing people, burning houses, until the moment when they came up to --
1 very close to my house when they killed eight people. I saw everything.
2 I saw the fire and the killing.
3 Q. Thank you. You've told us this several times and then you repeat
4 it yet again. My question was: How did you know that the village was
5 surrounded on all sides?
6 A. You could see that. The people could see that. We knew, all of
7 us, that we were surrounded; it was obvious.
8 Q. Thank you. Well, I don't know what the others saw, but tell me
9 what did you see? You say that you only saw something there above the
11 A. Yes, yes, I saw them and I told you about the tanks over the part
12 where the mosque was. There were army forces there and police forces.
13 Q. Thank you. Is this the only thing that you saw?
14 A. No. Everybody could see that we were surrounded.
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salihi, do you know what the word "method" means?
16 A. No, I don't know what "method" is.
17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me what does Serb land forces mean?
18 What do you mean by that?
19 A. Yes, I can say that the land forces came in and they caused
20 damage to the population. They were infantry. They came on foot. They
21 did all those evil things to us.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you do your military service?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know what your military specialty was?
25 A. I was infantry. I was issued a weapon. I had a rifle. I didn't
1 have any education, but I did know the military rules in the army.
2 Q. Thank you. Yes, just tell me one more thing, do you mean
3 "infantry" when you say "ground forces"?
4 A. Yes, but for the police infantry, not the army.
5 Q. Thank you. You said to us today, I think it was on page 7 of the
6 transcript, line 6, that you saw the infantry and the police entering the
7 village. So I would be interested in what the difference is between the
8 police and the infantry?
9 A. Listen, the army entered the village. They saw that the
10 civilians had nowhere to go. They were running in panic. Children were
11 crying. So they don't harm anyone in the village. Then the infantry of
12 the police forces entered the village. They went to houses, set them on
13 fire, looted the houses, killed people. They did the most evil things to
15 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that the army shelled the village
16 on several occasions?
17 A. They did shell, but they didn't cause any harm to the civilian
18 population. They were aware that the civilians had nowhere to go.
19 Q. Thank you. And where were you when the army shelled the village?
20 A. In my house, in the courtyard. As all the others, I was
21 observing what was going on.
22 Q. Thank you. As far as I understood things, your yard is on flat
24 A. Yes, but it's a little bit on an elevation. There are trees
25 there, but we could observe the movements in the village from there very
2 Q. Thank you. Where were these shells falling, tell me?
3 A. On the houses.
4 Q. Thank you. From the place where you were in the yard, how far
5 away could you see?
6 A. I don't know how far away I could see, but the most important
7 thing is that I could see everything that was going on.
8 Q. Thank you. But your village is big. You cannot see all of it.
9 It's bigger than that. Am I right?
10 A. But I was on such a vantage point that I could see everything,
11 where people were going to. It is a big village, as you said, it has
12 about 200 houses, but I could see everything.
13 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that there was shooting in the
15 A. From where? Or by whom?
16 Q. That there was shooting in the village. That's what I'm asking
17 you about. You said there was shooting in the village, so was there? Is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes, the police was shooting.
20 Q. Thank you. And on the outskirts of the village you saw that it
21 was only the police who were shooting; right?
22 A. Listen, as I said in the beginning, it was the army that entered
23 the village. They saw that the population was leaving in panic, and then
24 the infantry and the police came in the village, inside the village.
25 They looted the houses, they set the houses on fire, and killed those
1 that they found in the houses.
2 Q. Thank you. Tell me, from the place where you were standing to
3 the outskirts of the village, what is the distance as the crow flies?
4 A. I don't know the distance. I didn't measure it, but I could see
5 very well from there.
6 Q. And you could see houses that were on the outskirts of the
8 A. I could see them.
9 Q. Did these houses have walls around their yards?
10 A. Yes, some had, some didn't. But even if all of them had walls
11 you could see very well which houses they entered and which houses they
12 set on fire.
13 Q. Thank you. And could one see whether there was shooting coming
14 from that -- from those houses?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Tell me, how do you know that it was the police who
17 were wearing black uniforms?
18 A. We call it blue. And they had those kind of colour on their
19 uniforms, the police.
20 Q. Mr. Salihi, in all your statements so far you've said the
21 uniforms were black. How come you're now saying black is something you
22 call blue?
23 A. They worked in groups, different groups changed. They killed so
24 many people. I could have been one of those killed too. They were
25 different groups of them.
1 Q. In paragraph 4 of your statement it says:
2 "The Serb forces that had entered the village were wearing black
3 uniforms, although I was too far away from them to see the insignia on
4 their uniforms."
5 A. They looked black from that distance.
6 Q. Not to spend too much time on this, in the Milutinovic trial you
7 said that you saw such black uniforms before the war too.
8 A. Before the war it's impossible for me to have seen them before
9 the war. I did see them on that day; and, as I said, every 20 metres
10 there was a different group and all these different groups took turns.
11 Q. Thank you. We'll have to get back to this later then. Not to
12 waste time now, could you please tell me where was it that you saw these
13 policemen? From what direction were they coming? At what location were
15 A. I will repeat it again. The village was surrounded by them.
16 They know best from what direction they were coming and where they were.
17 The whole village was surrounded by policemen. They could enter the
18 village from any side they wished.
19 Q. Mr. Salihi, I do apologise but you have been testifying about
20 them entering the village. I'm just asking you where they had come from,
21 from what direction. I'm just asking you to tell me what you had seen,
22 not what others knew. I'm asking you about what your own immediate
23 observations were. If you saw them, then tell me what was it that you
24 saw. You're not talking about the police only. You are talking about
25 combat armoured vehicles and tanks and so on and so forth. So when was
1 it that you first saw these policemen?
2 A. When they [as interpreted] woke up, we saw that the village was
3 surrounded by policemen and by the army. Then they entered the village
4 from every side, from all the sides. They could do whatever they wanted.
5 When we woke up, we were surrounded, as I already explained.
6 The army did shoot, but they did not cause any harm to the
7 population because they could see that the population was running in
8 panic. And then the police entered and they looted the house and
9 committed all sorts of crimes. This is what I can tell you.
10 Q. Thank you. Again you are not answering my question. You are
11 speaking in general terms about the police surrounding the village and
12 that other things happened afterwards. What does this word mean in your
13 vocabulary, "surrounded"?
14 A. Surrounded by the police and the army. This is what I said, and
15 I'm repeating again that the army did not cause any harm or damage.
16 Q. All right. Let us leave the army aside. As for what you've said
17 to us until now, you said that you just saw something above the mosque;
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. What colour were the tanks that you saw?
21 A. The tanks were of the army. They were on tracks. They had the
22 colour of the grass, as we say.
23 Q. Thank you. What about armoured vehicles?
24 A. I didn't see the armoured vehicles, where they left them.
25 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that you were not an eye-witness
1 to the burning of the mosque and school?
2 A. Yes as far as the school is concerned, and no as far as the
3 mosque is concerned.
4 Q. Thank you. How far away were you from the school?
5 A. I was far, but you could see very well, they entered the school,
6 they set it on fire, and then they went to the houses and did whatever
7 they wanted to do with them.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know how the school was torched, did you see
10 A. I don't know what they used to torch the school, but I did see
11 the flames.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you hear anything?
13 A. There was constant noise. They were using their weapons, they
14 entered the houses freely.
15 Q. Thank you. How did you establish how many houses were burned?
16 A. They torched many, many houses. When we returned from Albania
17 we realised that the whole village was turned into ashes. All of it was
18 burned and looted.
19 Q. Thank you. Tell me, where were you when you noticed that people
20 were leaving the village?
21 A. I think I already told you. I was in the courtyard of my
22 brother. We were sitting there, and we could see that the people were
23 fleeing from their houses and looking for shelter for their families.
24 Q. Will you tell me from what houses these people were fleeing, from
25 which parts of the village?
1 A. The whole village, everybody was trying to leave. Everybody was
2 looking for shelter for his own family. They were trying to withdraw
3 them from the houses.
4 Q. So what did they do? Where did they go?
5 A. They left the village and then they gathered, as I already
6 mentioned, in the Mount of Pisjak.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you see Mount Pisjak
8 A. No.
9 Q. As you stood in your yard, how could you know that they were
10 fleeing towards that mountain?
11 A. At around 3.30 in the afternoon, after they killed eight members
12 of my family and 14 members of the Zeqiri family, when it became dark I
13 went to Pisjak to find my family. I found them at around 10.00 p.m.
14 my family and I joined the rest of the people who were gathered there.
15 Q. Thank you. You came to this place where your family was, and it
16 was only then when you established where they were. You did not know
17 when you stood in your yard where they were; am I right?
18 A. No, I could only see that they were leaving the houses.
19 Q. Thank you. Previously was there some kind of an agreement
20 reached, say with the neighbours and everybody else, where you were
21 supposed to go?
22 A. Nobody knew in advance where they were going to. They left
23 because they had to.
24 Q. Thank you. Sir, in the Milutinovic case on page 4219, that's the
25 transcript page, in response to the question put by
1 His Honour Judge Bonomy, you said that before the war you saw policemen.
2 And then you were asked whether you could remember what kind of uniform
3 they wore, and you said that ten of them had black uniforms. That's what
4 we discussed a few moments ago. You said at line 10 that they had black
6 A. Yes, but they changed. They were wearing all sorts of uniforms.
7 They wore whatever they wanted.
8 Q. Thank you. I don't understand what this means, that they were
9 changing their clothes all the time.
10 A. As I said, they could do whatever they wanted.
11 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 5 you said that the members of your
12 family left the farm that morning at about 5.30 to hide in the nearby
13 forests. We've explained the bit about the forests. Tell me, why didn't
14 you go with them?
15 A. I didn't go because I asked my brothers to leave all together,
16 but they said no. So I decided to stay there. It was my own house I was
17 staying in after all.
18 Q. Thank you. But you were left there and your brother Bajram and
19 Faik, and you say that with Faik there was also his four-member or
20 five-member family.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Why didn't you all leave?
23 A. I will tell you now. Had we known that what happened would
24 happen, we would have left too.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you stay to defend your farm?
1 A. Well, I thought that they would do no harm; however, they did us
2 harm. They did these evil things to us, and here we are.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you stay on to defend your farm?
4 A. If I could, I would have defended my family members, not the
5 house, not my property.
6 Q. Thank you. We'll get to that too. But could you explain this to
7 me now, you said that Miftar Zeqiri was your next-door neighbour. Why
8 did he come to you, to your farm, with his 14 family members?
9 A. The yards are adjacent to each other. For us it was like one
10 same house, you know, the whole family gathered there, and we stayed
12 Q. Thank you. What time was it when Zeqiri came to you together
13 with his family?
14 A. It was in the morning when the children woke up. I didn't look
15 at a watch.
16 Q. Thank you. But most of your family had already left your family
17 farm, and you also say that everybody else from the village had left for
18 the most part. But then you said that Zeqiri came to you.
19 A. We live next door. He is my first-door neighbour, and we spent
20 time together.
21 Q. Thank you. From the moment they came to your yard, where were
22 you actually, you and Zeqiri and the members of your family?
23 A. As I already said, they were together there. My eldest brother
24 stood up, Bajram stood up. They -- there was a house there which was not
25 yet finished, and the police shot at him and killed him. When he was
1 killed, I left.
2 The infantry came later on, and they massacred everybody, the
3 children, everybody who was there. A 6-month-old baby was massacred
5 Q. Thank you. But you're not answering my question. Please listen
6 to me carefully. This is my question: When the Zeqiri family came,
7 where were you, and where were they? That was my question. Just tell me
8 where were you. And we are going to get to this thing that you've been
9 telling me all along.
10 A. I did say where I was. I was there. I can't remember how many
11 times I told you.
12 Q. Mr. Salihi, you have six houses, a big yard. You also told us
13 what the area of your family farm was. I am asking you: Where were you,
14 you and the other 14 members of your family and Zeqiri, where were you?
15 At 3.00 in the afternoon, I'm not asking you that, you didn't have a
16 watch or a clock, so I'm not asking you that, but where were you?
17 A. I think I told you that I was together with them. I don't know
18 what else to tell you.
19 Q. Well, you can tell me, I was in a house. And then I ask you,
20 Which house? Or you can tell me, I was standing at this particular place
21 in the yard. But you did not mention the house at all from the morning
22 hours until now. So that's why I'm asking you: Where were you actually?
23 A. I was in my brother's yard. We were all there. The Zeqiri
24 family was there as well. I don't know how else to describe it to you.
25 Q. Thank you. So may I conclude that you were outside the house
1 from the morning onwards, you were in the yard?
2 A. Yes, I was outside.
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Where was it that you first saw the Serb
4 police when they reached your yard?
5 A. We were there when we saw them, the police.
6 Q. Where were the police when you first saw them?
7 A. They came and entered the village from the school, and they came
8 down towards where we were.
9 Q. Where did you see them?
10 A. We could see them coming.
11 Q. Did they walk along the street?
12 A. There was no road, but you could see them entering the houses and
13 coming out of the houses everywhere.
14 Q. I'm asking you quite specifically about your family compound.
15 When was it that they got in? Please listen to me carefully.
16 A. You mean my family?
17 Q. I mean the moment when you started talking about the police
18 coming into your family compound, where did you see the police for the
19 first time? Where were they? Did you see them at all before they
21 A. I saw them before they entered the yard.
22 Q. And after that, when did you see them for the first time?
23 A. I think I told you the direction they were coming from. I could
24 see them entering houses, coming out of the houses. This is the
25 hundredth time I'm telling you.
1 Q. But you keep repeating the same thing, and you're not answering
2 my question and that's our problem. As far as I was able to understand,
3 in front of your family compound there is only one road, and it leads to
4 Agim Jemini's house and towards Velika Krusa going in the opposite
5 direction. And the school is further up from you, several kilometres, I
6 don't know what you said. And now I'm talking about the police in front
7 of your house, where did you see them, how did you see them, and you keep
8 telling us that you saw them at the school. But let us go back. What is
9 an assault rifle to your mind?
10 A. May I speak, please? May I respond to this gentleman? I don't
11 think he's understanding me. Or maybe he doesn't want to understand me.
12 Can I speak, please?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Please do.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police did not climb the road
15 as you are saying, but they went from house to house and they set them on
16 fire. They killed people in their own houses. They did not kill people
17 on the street. And they did not go towards Agim's house or whoever
18 you're mentioning. I did not see them go there. They went from house to
19 house, and they did whatever they wanted there. And this is what I
20 described to you.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you. And that's what you described to us, but now we're
23 coming to the point in time when they reached your house. And I don't
24 have any bad intentions here; I just want you to explain some things to
25 us. When did you see them for the first time? When they reached your
1 house, where were they?
2 A. I told you earlier, but I'll try to explain. There was a house
3 close to Zeqiris' house which had not been finished yet, the
4 construction. The police was there. We did not see them. And it's from
5 there that they shot my brother who stood up. The bullet caught him, and
6 he was killed instantly. And then I left the house. There was a group
7 of five that I saw with my own eyes. The infantry came to where my
8 family was and the Zeqiri family was, and they massacred them.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, what do you mean when you say an
10 assault rifle?
11 A. I don't know because I was not together with them to see what
12 kinds of weapons they were carrying. We were trying to go and hide.
13 They knew what kinds of weapons they had.
14 Q. Thank you. I asked you this because in paragraph 5 in the
15 penultimate sentence there is mention of assault rifles, and I wanted you
16 to explain what it means. So could you please tell me, the police
17 officers that entered your farm, what kind of uniforms were they wearing?
18 A. They were in different groups. They were wearing blue uniforms.
19 They had red and some of them white ribbons. I don't know what else to
20 tell you because I was not staying with them to be able to describe them
21 in detail. I'm only telling you what I could see.
22 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 6 you say:
23 "Suddenly three bursts of automatic gun-fire were fired at our
24 farm. I saw Bajram hit in the abdominal area and killed instantly."
25 Could you please tell me where your brother Bajram was at this
1 time that you describe in paragraph 6.
2 A. Yes. There were only 5 metres between us. I was there, in the
3 yard, where he was killed.
4 Q. And where was he?
5 A. I think I told you, he was there near me.
6 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that he was in the yard?
7 A. In the yard, in Faik's yard, the family was there, Zeqiri's
8 family was there. We were all together there.
9 Q. Well, did you see the person or persons that actually opened
11 A. After Bajram was killed, I told you that I left and I could see
12 them coming down. The infantry then went in. I can't imagine how they
13 could do those things to the people, even the little children. How could
14 they do all those things to the Kosovar people? The whole world was
16 Q. Mr. Salihi, my question is this: At the time when you were in
17 the yard, did you see where the gun-fire came from and did you see who
18 opened fire? And now you're telling me what happened afterwards.
19 A. If I'm not mistaken, I did tell you that they came out of that
20 house. As I said Miftar Zeqiri had this house, that the construction of
21 which had not finished yet. They left the house where they shot from and
22 came to the yard where my brother was there with his children and the
23 Zeqiri family.
24 Q. Could you tell us, how far is it from the gate of your family
25 farm, to the Zeqiri -- to the gate on the Zeqiri farm?
1 A. There is a fence that divides us and we're next-door neighbours.
2 There's only a fence between us.
3 Q. Yes, and this is why I'm asking you, because there was this
4 fence, how far was it from the gate on your family farm to the gate on
5 the Zeqiri farm?
6 A. My brother's house, where we had gone to at that time, is next to
7 Miftar Zeqiri's house, so they're next-door neighbours and that's why
8 they came all together to stay where we were.
9 Q. Thank you. But again you didn't tell me how far is it from the
10 gate to your family farm to the gate of the Zeqiri farm.
11 A. They're not very far from each other. There is just a fence
12 between us, as I said; and because they're not very far, they came and
13 joined us in the yard.
14 Q. Thank you. But it was much earlier than the events when there
15 was this gun-fire when your brother was hit; am I right?
16 A. 3.30 in the afternoon.
17 Q. Yes. And did I understand it right that at that time the Zeqiris
18 were in your yard?
19 A. But the yards are next to each other.
20 Q. Sir, a little while ago you told us that the Zeqiris had come to
21 seek shelter at your place and that they were in your yard. Were they in
22 your yard when your brother was hit?
23 A. I think I told you that they're next to each other. Ours is
24 here, theirs is there, and there is where they were staying.
25 Q. There is a misunderstanding it seems. This is a question, a yes
1 or no question. Were the Zeqiris in your yard at the time when your
2 brother was hit?
3 A. Between the two, there is a fence and they were on both sides.
4 On that border they were all together, they had gathered there.
5 Q. Are you trying to tell me that some members of the Zeqiri family
6 were with you in the yard?
7 A. No, I did not say that. Both families were there. The children
8 were there together.
9 Q. Where is "there"? Could you please tell me that.
10 A. In my brother's yard which borders Zeqiris' house and yard.
11 Q. Thank you. So they were in your yard. Now I want to know how
12 far were your brother and your other family members from you and your
13 brother Bajram when he was hit?
14 A. They were all in one group there.
15 Q. Thank you. How far away from them were you?
16 A. I think I told you, about 5 metres away from him, maybe not even
18 Q. Thank you. And why did you flee to Miftar Zeqiri's farm after
19 the shooting, as you say?
20 A. I did not say that. If I had gone to Zeqiri's house, I would
21 have died as well.
22 Q. Well, I will have to read from paragraph 6 of your statement.
23 "I saw Bajram hit in the abdominal area and killed instantly.
24 Faik and his family remained with the Zeqiri family in our compound,
25 while I ran next door into the Zeqiri compound."
1 A. That's a mistake.
2 Q. Thank you. And then it goes on to say:
3 "Where I found the 3-foot hole to hide in (about 90
4 centimetres)" --
5 A. Yes, I did not measure it, but it was of that kind of depth.
6 Q. Very well, but where is this hole where you hid?
7 A. It was above the houses.
8 Q. Whose?
9 A. Our houses, all of them, and our neighbour's house,
10 Miftar Zeqiri's house.
11 Q. So you were outside of the family compound, both your family
12 compounds, yours and Zeqiri's, you were in that group?
13 A. Yes, yes. I think I told you that when my brother was killed, I
14 left, I fled. Because they were coming towards us, so I left the place I
15 was together with them. And then they entered, and they did what I
16 already told you several times.
17 Q. Thank you. And where did you flee? That's what I want to know.
18 A. I stayed in that hole until it became dark, and I left then when
19 it became dark to go to find my family in the mountain. I found them
21 Q. Mr. Salihi, you are a farmer, yet you went to big towns to sell
22 your produce there, so you understand me very well. You know what I mean
23 when I'm asking you this. My question is: Where is the hole where you
24 hid? Do you understand the question?
25 A. Where I hid?
1 Q. Where is the hole where you hid when your brother was shot?
2 A. I told you that I fled. There is the side of the mountain there,
3 of the hill, beyond our houses, the whole neighbourhood, and that is
4 where I hid, in a hole.
5 Q. But could you please explain to us, we don't know that, where are
6 the slopes beyond your houses where you went?
7 A. I don't know, why you are asking me in such detail where we hid
8 and so on. People were killed, and you're not asking about them. You're
9 asking where we hid and so on.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you have any weapons?
11 A. No. Had I had a weapon, I might have been able to save someone.
12 Q. And did the Zeqiris have weapons?
13 A. I don't know. I can only tell you things about myself. I know
14 things about myself and what I did. That's why I'm here, to respond to
15 you about those things.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel please
17 repeat the question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how many times I have
19 to tell you. Had we had a gun, we wouldn't have stayed at home.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. My question - it appears that I need to repeat it - was whether
22 Faik had any weapons?
23 A. I don't know that he had any weapons.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me, do you speak Serbian and did you
25 speak Serbian at the time?
1 A. I can understand it.
2 Q. In paragraph 6 you say that you heard someone shout:
3 "Shoot, there are terrorists here."
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, this I heard very well. Everybody was terrorist to them,
6 children, the whole of Kosova.
7 Q. And where were there terrorists?
8 A. [Previous translation continues]...
9 Q. Very well. And who are terrorists to your mind?
10 A. [Previous translation continues]... we heard this term. I don't
12 Q. Thank you. You say that at one point in the evening you came to
13 the place where your family was, and in paragraph 7 you say that the next
14 day a group of 40 policemen arrived in the forest. Did you see the
15 police officers?
16 A. Are you referring to the 28th of March, when we had to leave the
18 Q. Well, I mean the first morning after you escaped from the hole
19 and went into the woods, so that's the next morning. According to your
20 calculation, it should be --
21 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, I must interrupt you. What the witness
22 says that he remained there for the next three days, and then the next
23 morning after that --
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. That's correct.
25 I do apologise. You are correct. That's the morning that I mean. So
1 two -- after two or three days spent in the woods.
2 Q. So that morning when the policemen came, that's the morning that
3 I'm referring to.
4 A. You see that we can easily make mistakes here. Which date are
5 you referring to now?
6 JUDGE PARKER: The 28th of March is the correct answer.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, when they made us leave.
9 There were so many groups, almost more policemen than civilians. Whether
10 they were 40 or more, that I really don't know.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. In paragraph 7 -- well, I don't want to make a mistake
13 again - you say 40 policemen arrived. And I wanted to ask you, where did
14 they come from, from what direction, if you saw them actually arrive?
15 A. They were shooting from the top of the mountain, and we saw them
16 when we were there in the meadow. We couldn't see the direction they
17 came from.
18 Q. Were you in a meadow or in a forest?
19 A. I was in the forest, but in the morning when they made us leave,
20 we gathered on a meadow.
21 Q. Tell me, is it correct that there were 40 policemen there?
22 JUDGE PARKER: The reference is over 40 policemen.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't count them because we saw
24 thousands of them later on.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you. Tell me -- I'm asking you this because your statement
2 contains figures. It would never have crossed my mind to put this kind
3 of question to you otherwise. You mentioned 10.000 people here. Is that
4 your own estimate? Is it somebody else's estimate? How come this is
6 A. There were many civilians because the whole of the population
7 stopped there. The population of my village was there. There were a lot
8 of people. Maybe there was not exactly this figure of 10.000, maybe
9 there were 8.000, maybe there were more, but there were a lot.
10 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. I would actually like to go
11 back. When we said that you had heard that someone said that there were
12 terrorists there, did you say that there was shooting that went on for 15
13 minutes? Is that correct?
14 A. I don't know now to what event or location you're referring to.
15 Q. I mean I went back to the period when those policemen had come
16 and when somebody had said:
17 "Shoot, there are terrorists here."
18 Then you say the shooting went on for 15 minutes?
19 A. This is when they killed the members of my family, my brother's
20 family. Then I heard when these infantry forces came in they were
21 shouting between them. They entered the yard, and they killed them on
22 the spot.
23 Q. Did you actually see that?
24 A. No, I only heard that, and I saw them leaving, going downwards.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you know what the UCK is, as
1 in KLA?
2 A. Listen, this was of no interest to me. I didn't bother who was
3 what. My statement is about what these forces committed over the
4 civilian population.
5 Q. Correct. But I asked you whether you could tell me what the UCK
7 A. I cannot really answer that because I don't know anything about
9 Q. Please don't understand this as a provocation on my part. I am
10 asking you this because in your statement in paragraph 12 it says:
11 "Since I have lived all my life in Celine, I can say that in my
12 village there were never any members of the OVK," it says in Serbian and
13 it is UCK in Albanian. So I'm asking you: Do you know what the UCK is?
14 A. I did say that there was no UCK in Celine. As to what this means
15 and what is the meaning of it, that I don't know, and that was never of
16 any interest to me.
17 Q. Before giving your statement, did you ever hear of the KLA?
18 A. Yes, I did hear of the KLA, but I was not interested in finding
19 out what it meant, who it was.
20 Q. All right. Let us accept that. How is it that you know then
21 that there were no members of the KLA in the village then?
22 A. I know that because I didn't see anyone leaving the village.
23 Q. Thank you. So if someone was in the village, he didn't have to
24 leave and didn't have to be a member of the KLA.
25 A. I didn't see them.
1 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 7 of your statement you say that the
2 police searched you when you were up there in the forest, when they
3 arrived; is that correct?
4 A. That is correct. When we left the forest, when they made us
5 leave, they separated the men [as interpreted] and the children from the
6 men. They made us, the men, into three groups. They asked for our
7 personal identification documents. They collected everything and then
8 they collected the money. They didn't want the Serbian dinars. They
9 wanted Deutschemarks, so whatever we had on us, we took it out, and they
10 collected. And they killed a very young man, Agim Ramadani.
11 Q. Thank you. My question was whether the police had searched you.
12 Am I right actually?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did the police find something when searching you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. Further on in your statement you say that they
17 searched you and that they ordered you to hand over 5.000 Deutschemarks.
18 A. [B/C/S interpretation] correct.
19 [Albanian interpretation]Absolutely correct. We just threw them in front
20 of us. They threatened to kill us. They had knives on them, daggers.
21 So everybody from the civilians threw on the ground whatever they had on
23 Q. Thank you. That was after the search. Now tell me, you got
24 dressed in the morning in order to go out and work on the field and then
25 you say that you were in your yard and along with you you had
1 5.000 Deutschemarks; is that correct?
2 A. Listen, I want us to understand each other. We woke up in the
3 morning. We had to run for our lives. There were no conditions for us
4 to go and work on the land as we usually did.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it is
7 time for the technical break.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It is, Mr. Djurdjic. I thought you said you had
9 only one more question. I misunderstood, did I?
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall be very
11 brief. It's not that I have too much left, but then there was that
12 question that I had forgotten and then I had to go back to that. It's
13 going to be very brief. I'm getting close to the end, I am.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will have then the second break now
15 and resume at a quarter past 3.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 2.46 p.m.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- On resuming at 3.23 p.m.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I apologise that I was delayed by a few moments by
20 another matter.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Salihi, am I right when I say that you were not an
25 eye-witness when your daughter handed over 6.000 German marks and when
1 the police took her gold necklace?
2 A. They were stopped at Krusha e Vogel. They were beaten up there,
3 and my daughter told me that they had taken away her money and the
5 Q. Thank you. So you are -- so I am right that you were not an
7 A. No, no. I didn't. My daughter described it to me.
8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, do you know Agim Ramadani?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us who Agim Ramadani was?
11 A. He was a young man about 17 or 18 years old.
12 Q. Where was he from?
13 A. From Celine.
14 Q. Did he live in Celine?
15 A. He lived in his own house.
16 Q. Do you know where that house is?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Did you personally know Agim Ramadani?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you friends with his family?
21 A. No, no. He is just a co-villager.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know what he did?
23 A. His father is a farmer as well.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me what he wore, what Agim Ramadani wore
25 when the police came up there to the forest?
1 A. Normal clothes as anybody else.
2 Q. Did you see him before the police came?
3 A. Yes, when we left the mountain, I saw him. We were gathered
4 together. We were made to stand on rows, and he was close to me.
5 Q. Thank you. How far away were you from him?
6 A. About 20 metres away.
7 Q. Thank you. Did I understand correctly that the police singled
8 him out and took him somewhere?
9 A. Yes, they singled him out. About 30 metres away they beat him
11 Q. Thank you. Did you see them searching him?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was something found on him when he was searched?
14 A. They did not find anything on anybody.
15 Q. Thank you. You say the police separated you into two groups, not
16 to go into the number of people involved, and you say that many trucks
17 came to transport you then; is that correct?
18 A. That's correct. Yes, we were kept near the road all day.
19 Q. Was any family member with you?
20 A. Yes, my son who was 13 years old was with me.
21 Q. Tell me, the rest of your family was in another group; right?
22 A. Well, all the women were separated from us. We didn't know where
23 they were sent to, but later on we heard that they had been at
24 Krusha e Vogel. That was the rest of my family with the women.
25 Q. Thank you. Is Arben your son's name?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you perhaps know what year he was born?
3 A. I don't know exactly. Now he is 20 or 21 years old, maybe 22. I
4 can't tell you exactly, sorry.
5 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you this because your statement seems to
6 show that the women and children were separated from the men?
7 A. Yes, when we were made to climb down the mountain, we were
8 separated. We didn't know where they sent the women and the children.
9 We learned that later.
10 Q. Thank you. Yet in the statement it says that Arben was 15 at the
12 A. Maybe I did, but still I'm not sure, 14 maybe.
13 Q. Am I right when I say that in -- you saw in a newspaper article
14 in Albania
15 been killed?
16 A. No. I knew about that when they were killed on the spot;
17 however, the newspapers wrote about the incident.
18 Q. In paragraph 11 of the statement you gave, you mention that you
19 were afraid that something horrible had happened to them, yet you say
20 that you saw the article in the newspaper -- well, it's different from
21 what you're saying now.
22 A. I can't read the newspaper.
23 Q. I know that, but this is what it says in your statement, not that
24 you read but that you saw -- but okay, let's move on.
25 Do you know the name Ekrem Rexha?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you know where the Hoca river-bed is?
3 A. Hoqe e Vogel?
4 Q. Was your family there when it left the village?
5 A. My family went to Pisjak. I didn't say that they went to the
6 Hoqe river.
7 Q. That's correct. I'm asking you whether they went to the Hoca
9 A. I don't understand what you're saying. Which Hoqe? There is no
10 such thing as Hoqe. My children were sent to Krusha e Vogel, then loaded
11 on trucks, and sent over to Albania
12 Q. I'm not talking about that, Mr. Salihi. I'm talking about the
13 time when your family left the village on the eve of the arrival of the
14 Serb forces, that they went to Hoca river or to Hocanska Reka and that
15 you went there, and that you were told by the Serb forces after the
16 fighting ended in Celine that you could go back to your village.
17 A. It is a mistake. Wherever you read that from, that's wrong.
18 Q. Thank you. But am I right when I say that the KLA members in the
19 village of Celine
20 village facing Bela Crkva, and that on the 25th of March in the morning
21 they offered fierce resistance to the Serb forces?
22 A. I don't know about that. Whoever knows about that can answer the
24 Q. Thank you. Am I right when I say that at 10.00 a.m. you left
25 Celine and went away?
1 A. I think I told you that I stayed at home in my brother's yard
2 until 3.30, when my brother was killed.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have on the screen
5 a Defence document D002-5628.
6 Q. Mr. Salihi, this is your statement of the 23rd of July, 2001
7 in this statement in paragraph 4 you say this:
8 "My family and myself went back to Celine three months after I
9 had left, and we went back to our house, the house had been looted, and
10 it was completely empty. I ascertained later on that eight of my family
11 members were killed in the events of the 25th of March, 1999."
12 You never mention that your house had been burnt down.
13 A. Well, if the house has been razed to the ground, what can I say,
14 that it's still standing?
15 Q. Well, certainly not, but you had to have known that on the
16 23rd of July, 2001?
17 A. The house was completely destroyed, burnt beyond burning.
18 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Salihi. I have no further questions
19 for you.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, this
21 completes my cross-examination.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
23 Now, Ms. D'Ascoli, do you have re-examination?
24 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours, I do have some questions.
25 Re-examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
1 Q. Mr. Salihi, you were asked by my learned colleague early in his
2 cross-examination about the graves of your family members in the yard of
3 your family compound and about the exhumations that were conducted by a
4 team of foreign -- by international team.
5 I have -- some questions. Do you remember which type of graves,
6 where it was in your gardens where your family members were found when
7 you returned to Celine?
8 A. Yes, I understand. They had been killed there and then they had
9 been buried in a very shallow grave. They had just been covered with
10 soil and that's where we found them when we went back.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Were you there when the bodies of your family
12 members were exhumed by the international team?
13 A. I was present myself, and I gave them the names of the people
14 from my family.
15 Q. Therefore, I understand that you were called to identify these
16 bodies; right?
17 A. Yes. There was this foreign team who exhumed the bodies. We
18 were not allowed to do anything to the bodies.
19 Q. I move to something else. My learned colleague also asked you
20 about the people you were with in the forest where you were hiding for
21 two days and also the villages where they -- these people were coming
22 from, where they were fleeing from. Did you have the chance, while you
23 were there, to talk to these people who were with you there in the
25 A. Yes, with the people from my village.
1 Q. Also with people from other villages?
2 A. No. They, from the other villages, were further away. It was a
3 big surface, about 4 or 5 hectares big, so it was filled with people.
4 Q. And you were all hiding -- you were all gathered there together,
5 right, so you could see each other and ...
6 A. Yes, the whole population had gathered there and stayed there for
7 three days.
8 Q. And how did you know the villages where these other people were
9 coming from?
10 A. Yes, as I already told you, they were people who had family in
11 this village and had fled to their families.
12 Q. And you were mentioning the Mount Pisjak
13 you mentioned the area of the woods of the forest where you and your
14 family and these other people were gathered?
15 A. Yes, we were there in the woods for three days.
16 Q. So is that how you called the area, Mount Pisjak
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Salihi, you said you did your military service;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you then able to distinguish between the uniforms worn by the
22 army and the uniforms worn by the police?
23 A. The police had blue uniforms, as I've already described to you;
24 there were also military forces, but they had different uniforms from
25 that of the police. They had the uniform of the colour of the grass.
1 Q. Therefore, am I correct when I say that you are able to
2 distinguish between these different type of uniforms?
3 A. Yes, I can tell the difference between the police and the army.
4 Q. In answering the questions by my learned colleague, you also
5 mention -- you mentioned having seen different groups of Serb forces
6 there in Celine and they were wearing different uniforms. Do I
7 understand from your evidence that there were forces with both black
8 uniforms and blue uniforms?
9 A. The truth is that there were all sorts of different groups of
10 them there with different uniforms of different colours.
11 Q. Therefore, did you see both black, blue uniforms, and also other
12 types of uniforms?
13 A. The ones I described to you are the ones that I saw, and I could
14 not really look around because we didn't dare. We were surrounded.
15 Q. Yes, I understand. But in your evidence you mentioned first
16 black and then also some blue uniforms, for example, like in your
17 statement - and this is page 3, paragraph 4 - you described the policemen
18 who arrived to the forest as wearing blue uniforms, blue
19 camouflage-pattern uniforms. Therefore, is that correct that you saw all
20 these different types of -- or colours of uniforms?
21 A. That's correct. We were under their rule there, they were close
22 to us, and these ones we saw.
23 Q. Thank you. I won't go farther into that.
24 Did you witness the killing of Agim Ramadani with your eyes?
25 A. Yes, I saw it with my own eyes because he was very close to where
1 I was.
2 Q. And did you see by whom he was killed?
3 A. The police.
4 Q. My last question: My learned colleague also asked you about the
5 place where you went hiding after the killing of your brother and the
6 other members of your family, and this was -- this was a hole where you
7 stayed until the evening before leaving for the forest. Was this place
8 close to the Zeqiri compound, if you remember?
9 A. It is close to my brother's compound, not Zeqiri's compound. It
10 is a kind of a hill beyond the houses, our houses and the houses of our
11 neighbours, and that's where this hole was, where I was hiding.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: This is the end of my re-examination,
14 Your Honours.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Salihi, you'll be pleased to know that
17 concludes the questions of you. The Chamber has been very grateful that
18 you were able to come to The Hague
19 evidence as you have. You are, of course, now free to return to your
20 normal activities, and the Chamber thanks you for what you have been able
21 to do.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for inviting me to
23 testify here.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, sir. The court officer will now show
25 you out.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE PARKER: The next witness is ready, Mr. Behar?
3 MR. BEHAR: Yes, I believe so, Your Honours. The next witness is
4 Agim Jemini. Before we start with the next witness, I did want to raise
5 a procedural matter, if I could do so at this time.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
7 MR. BEHAR: I'd like to make an oral application to add certain
8 new photographs to our exhibit list, and this application relates to
9 photographs that were brought by Mr. Jemini yesterday when he came in for
10 proofing. And Mr. Jemini brought with him a number of photos.
11 As he can explain, they were taken during the time that he'll
12 testify about, and we have checked in our system to confirm that we
13 didn't have those photographs before. And I can just briefly address
14 disclosure and relevance.
15 With respect to disclosure, we did provide advance copies to our
16 learned colleagues last night -- yesterday, in fact. We also, in keeping
17 with our disclosure obligations, in fact disclosed about 42 photographs,
18 although I'm only proposing to make use of about six photographs today.
19 And with respect to relevance, I can just briefly indicate that
20 one of the important elements of Mr. Jemini's evidence is that for about
21 a period of about 30 days he and a number of other men would hide in the
22 fields between Celine and Bela Crkva and at night enter Celine where they
23 found a large number of civilian bodies and buried them.
24 The photographs -- all of the photographs that I'm seeking to
25 tender were taken at that time, during that 30-day period. Four of them
1 show the bodies that were found and in fact some of the people, including
2 Mr. Jemini himself, and two show the men as they were hiding in the
3 fields. In my submission, those will all be of significant assistance to
4 the Chamber if admitted.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 Mr. Djurdjic.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Well,
8 inter alia, this morning, today, when we started our work I had a remark
9 that I presented to the Chamber knowing that this would happen, although
10 my learned friend Ms. D'Ascoli obviously cut short the additional
11 information supplied to the Defence so that it was within the limits set
12 by 92 bis.
13 I think that this goes beyond 92 bis, what the Prosecution
14 proposes to do now, and I'm not opposing it because of the time when we
15 received the additional photographs. I have a lot of understanding for
16 it, and I'm sure that I will find myself in the same situation. But if
17 we were in different circumstances, time would not be a problem at all.
18 But here, this has more to do with Rule 92 bis. If we hadn't
19 opposed the admission of those statements without the cross-examination,
20 this would be a finished business; yet now I receive additional
21 information, three pages of it, pertaining to this witness and we
22 received some new photographs, so after ten years.
23 I would just like to note that the basis for the testimony of
24 this witness -- the basic statement is the 17th of July, 1999, and in
25 this statement he mentioned the -- to the investigator, John Zdrilic,
1 that there are some photographs of some graves.
2 So this information is ten years old. It's only about the
3 photographs of the graves. And now we receive a number of photographs
4 that only six or seven might be used that are deemed relevant by the
6 The others, depicting Haradinaj and others including people with
7 rifles, are not of any importance for the Defence, they are not relevant
8 at all for the Defence, and that is why the Defence opposes to the
9 adducing of this additional evidence as the Prosecution has just moved
10 orally. All the more so because the two witnesses were supposed to be
11 heard the last week before the recess, and yet it is today that we get
12 this motion for this evidence to be put in. Thank you.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Anything in response, Mr. Behar?
14 MR. BEHAR: I don't think so, Your Honours. Perhaps the one
15 thing I would add is that the reference that my friend makes to the
16 statement, it is true Mr. Jemini indicated that he -- I'll just quote
18 "I also recorded most of the grave-sites with the camera and the
19 film is secured in Celine, and I intend to supply this to the war crimes
20 Tribunal from The Hague
21 I can indicate first I'm not seeking to tender photos of
22 grave-sites, that's not what was provided to us. However, we did search
23 exhaustively to see if we had been provided these photographs that he
24 brought yesterday, previously, and we concluded that we had not.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic mentions some three pages of
1 additional evidence that is proposed. Is that accurate?
2 MR. BEHAR: No, I'm not sure, in fairness, what Mr. Djurdjic is
3 referring to. With respect to Mr. Jemini we did provide a supplemental
4 information sheet, but that's largely intended for disclosure purposes.
5 With respect to what the questions I'm intending to ask, I don't
6 anticipate being much over the 30 minutes prescribed, perhaps slightly
7 over in light of the fact we're now tendering these photographs, but I'm
8 not sure what additional evidence is being referred to.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will receive the photographs, six or
12 seven, that you mention, Mr. Behar, assuming them to be relevant to the
13 subject matter when they are offered. If there is some issue affecting
14 the oral evidence that is in addition to the Rule 92 bis statement, some
15 radically different subject matter, that can be separately and
16 specifically raised in the course of the evidence.
17 If the witness could be brought in.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you please read the
20 affirmation on the card that is shown to you now.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: AGIM JEMINI
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
1 Mr. Behar has some questions.
2 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Examination by Mr. Behar:
4 Q. Good afternoon. Could you please provide your full name and your
5 date of birth for the record.
6 A. Agim Jemini. I was born on the 25th of November, 1960.
7 Q. I understand that you were the mayor of Celine in Rahovec; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us when you became mayor and how long you held that
11 position for?
12 A. I became a mayor in 1984, and I held that position until two
13 months ago. That would be for about 22 or 23 years.
14 Q. And can you tell us how many people lived in Celine at -- say at
15 the commencement of March 1999?
16 A. In 1999 there were about 2.000 inhabitants in Celine.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jemini, do you recall providing a statement to
18 the Office of the Prosecutor on the 17th of July, 1999?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I understand that you provided an addendum to that statement
21 on the 3rd of June, 2002; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Have you had the opportunity to read that statement and the
24 addendum before coming to court today?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are you satisfied that the information contained in those
2 documents is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that statement
6 and the addendum, that's 65 ter number 02338. I can indicate that
7 they're both together in that package.
8 JUDGE PARKER: The statement with the addendum will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00635, Your Honours.
10 MR. BEHAR:
11 Q. Mr. Jemini, do you recall testifying at the trial of
12 Slobodan Milosevic on the 7th of June, 2002?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And have you had a chance to review or listen to the transcript
15 of your testimony in that trial?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Does that transcript accurately reflect your evidence, and would
18 you testify to the same facts today?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender
22 65 ter number 02353.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00636, Your Honours.
25 MR. BEHAR:
1 Q. And, Mr. Jemini, do you recall testifying at the trial of
2 Mr. Milutinovic et al. on the 28th of September, 2006?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Have you had a chance to review the transcript of your testimony
5 in that trial?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And does that transcript accurately reflect your evidence, and
8 would you testify to the same facts again today?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. BEHAR: And, Your Honours, I would then seek to tender
11 65 ter number 05012.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00637, Your Honours.
14 MR. BEHAR: And, Your Honours, I would also seek to tender the
15 exhibits that were associated with Mr. Jemini's testimony; those were all
16 listed in annex B of our rule 92 bis motion. And I can go through those
17 one by one. The first is 01800.
18 JUDGE PARKER: What is that?
19 MR. BEHAR: That's -- sorry, I'm happy to go through each of
20 them. That's an enlarged photo of the destroyed Celine mosque.
21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P --
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I concluded
25 wrongly, but at the beginning of the trial I thought we said that all
1 evidence must be adduced and tendered into evidence and could not be
2 admitted as part of a 92 bis or 92 ter package. Perhaps I might be
3 mistaken, but I think that that was the decision of the Trial Chamber at
4 the beginning.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It's partly correct, nearly correct. The
6 Trial Chamber, Mr. Djurdjic, said that the question of the admission
7 would be dealt with at the time the witness came to give evidence. The
8 statement of the witness and the previous testimony having been admitted
9 just now as an exhibit in this trial, that provides an evidentiary basis
10 upon which the Chamber now considers the question of the admission of the
12 And in view of the nature of this particular exhibit, it is one
13 which from that evidentiary material, the statement and the previous
14 evidence of the witness, is sufficiently dealt with and described so as
15 to justify admission. Unless there was some particular objection that
16 you made which we would have to consider. Now, that is likely to be the
17 case for many exhibits which were attached to previous statements or
18 which were given as evidence in a previous trial.
19 There will, no doubt, though, be occasions when that is not the
20 case and the Prosecution seeks to tender an exhibit which is not
21 sufficiently dealt with in the statement or the previous transcript, in
22 which event there would need to be some further oral evidence from the
23 witness to provide a foundation upon which the Prosecution's motion to
24 tender the exhibit could be considered and dealt with.
25 So I hope that helps you to understand why we waited until this
1 point, and we'll wait until this point with other witnesses to decide
2 whether or not the exhibit will be received in evidence.
3 Please continue, Mr. Behar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 01800, Your Honours, will be assigned
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
7 MR. BEHAR: The next exhibit to be tendered is 02339, and that is
8 a photograph that depicts the view from the attic window of Mr. Jemini's
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00639, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
12 MR. BEHAR: The next exhibit is 05014, that is the same photo as
13 previously mentioned but as marked by the witness during his testimony.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00640, Your Honours.
16 MR. BEHAR: The next is 02340, that's a photograph that depicts
17 the witness's house in Celine.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: P00641, Your Honours.
20 MR. BEHAR: Then 05013, and that is the same photograph as
21 previously mentioned but having been marked by the witness in his
23 JUDGE PARKER: It too will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: P00642, Your Honours.
25 MR. BEHAR: The next is 02356, that's another photograph that
1 depicts the view from the attic window of the witness's house.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00643, Your Honours.
4 MR. BEHAR: Next is 05015, and that's the same photograph as
5 previously mentioned but as marked again by the witness during his
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: P00644, Your Honours.
9 MR. BEHAR: And last is 05016, and that is the Kosovo Atlas 2 as
10 marked by the witness in his testimony.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00645, Your Honours.
13 MR. BEHAR: I can now proceed to provide a brief summary of the
14 witness's evidence, and I can indicate that it relates chiefly to
15 paragraphs 72(a) and 77 of the indictment.
16 Mr. Jemini is the former mayor of Celine, in the Rahovec area of
18 He describes the Serb offensive in Celine beginning on the
19 25th of March, 1999. Serb forces surrounded the village and then shelled
20 and shot at the village. Mr. Jemini hid in the roof cavity of the new
21 house he was building, along with his cousin Isuf. He saw soldiers
22 entering the town from four directions along with police and then looting
23 houses of valuables. He observed the deliberate burning of houses and of
24 the local school.
25 From the house next door, Mr. Jemini overheard the contents of
1 radio conversations involving two men he identified as Serb commanders.
2 The next day Mr. Jemini saw a troop carrier approach the village
3 from the main road, carrying special forces police with beards, shaved
4 heads, and red ribbons. Soon there were 200 to 300 forces in the
5 village, some with white ribbons, some with headbands, they went from
6 house to house. A group of seven or eight men entered Mr. Jemini's house
7 and removed his father, mother, uncle, uncle's son, and uncle's wife.
8 They asked his father for money and later marched everyone outside. They
9 then executed all five of them.
10 Throughout that day, Serb forces looted and burned houses using
11 flame-throwers. Mr. Jemini heard the sounds of automatic weapon fire and
12 screaming. He escaped with his cousin to Zrze, and on the way he saw a
13 large number of corpses near Bela Crkva.
14 Over a period of about 30 days, Mr. Jemini returned to Celine
15 each night, along with others, to retrieve and then bury the dead. In
16 total he helped to 78 victims. He will describe observing police driving
17 trucks along the main roads in Celine and collecting bodies.
18 That is the conclusion of the summary, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
20 MR. BEHAR:
21 Q. Mr. Jemini, I am going to have a few very brief questions for you
22 about specific parts of your evidence. To begin with, in your statement
23 and in your previous testimony, after the Serb offensive against Celine
24 began on the 25th of March of 1999, you describe hiding in the roof and
25 making certain observations. And at page 3 of your statement at
1 paragraph 6 you describe overhearing one of the Serb force commanders
2 being told over the radio to stop the offensive on Celine. You describe
3 hearing that commander answer, Yes, we will stop.
4 My question is: After you heard that exchange, did you observe
5 any change in what was happening in Celine?
6 A. At the moment the response was given to the command at 9.00 at
7 night, the offensive was stopped; and the Serb forces took positions
8 around the village, and the offensive was stopped until the next day.
9 Q. And just to be clear, is that something that you observed
11 A. Yes, of course, because at that time everything stopped. The
12 shooting stopped. We couldn't hear any more shots, and there were no
13 more actions conducted by those forces. We saw that with our own eyes
14 and we could feel it.
15 Q. You described in your statement and in your testimony that the
16 next day, which was the 26th of March, a group of seven or eight men
17 entered your house and removed your father, mother, uncle, your uncle's
18 son, and your uncle's wife. Can you explain to the Court what happened
19 to them?
20 A. On the 26th of March, when the forces --
21 JUDGE PARKER: Could you pause a minute, please, Mr. Jemini.
22 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I do beg your pardon. I'm not
24 receiving interpretation of the question. I did not receive any
1 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you could ask the question again, please,
2 Mr. Behar.
3 MR. BEHAR: Certainly --
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. The
5 question was recorded in the transcript, but I did not get a translation
6 into Serbian. So the only thing I need is interpretation into Serbian.
7 My colleague doesn't have to repeat it. I mean, I see it's recorded in
8 the transcript.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Can we have the interpretation again.
10 Alternatively, no, we'll go as I suggested.
11 Would you ask the question again, Mr. Behar, then we can get the
12 question and the interpretation so there's no error.
13 MR. BEHAR: Certainly.
14 Q. Mr. Jemini, you described in your statement and in your testimony
15 that the next day, which was the 26th of March, a group of seven or eight
16 men entered your house and removed your father, your mother, your uncle,
17 your uncle's son, and your uncle's wife. Can you explain to this Court
18 what happened to them.
19 A. At that moment, these persons entered in the basement. They
20 removed my father, my uncle, and the other people from the basement,
21 brought them out into the yard. They asked for money, they asked my
22 father for money; and my father said how much money he had on him. My
23 mother reacted and said, Why are you doing this to us? Then the
24 policemen said to my mother, Don't say anything. Nobody's asking you.
25 At that time, they ordered them to hand over the money, to go to the
1 bedroom and take the money and give it to them. Then they marched them
2 towards the gate of the yard. Outside in the road one of the soldiers
3 shot in the air and the others shot at my family and left them there.
4 This was a tragic moment.
5 Q. And when you say, "shot at your family and left them there," I
6 know that this is difficult, but did any of those family members survive?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I'd also just like to clarify. I know that in your answer you've
9 used the terms "police" and also "soldiers." Can you explain who were
10 the men who did this? Were they military? Were they police? Were they
11 other persons?
12 A. No, these were not the soldiers of the 25th. These were
13 paramilitaries, Serb paramilitaries from other units wearing different
14 kinds of clothes with bandannas on their heads and various kinds of
15 weapons on them. They were not part of the regular army. The regular
16 army was there the day before.
17 Q. You had also mentioned police. Were there also police in that
18 group of seven or eight people that you described?
19 A. Yes, there were policemen with that unit. We call that kind of
20 unit a special unit or Arkan's unit. They were not part of the regular
21 army. They did not have the same uniform as the Serb -- regular Serb
22 army. They had blue or black and blue uniforms. They had bandannas on
23 their heads. Some of them had shaven heads and beards. These were
24 members who conducted the second part of the offensive.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. At page 5 of your statement you describe
1 returning to Celine after you had fled. You describe seeing Serb police
2 enter the village each day along with gypsies and burning houses and
3 stealing. And you describe entering the village at night to find people
4 who'd been massacred and to bury them. I'd like to show you some
6 MR. BEHAR: Could I have 65 ter number 5246, 05246.
7 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, sir?
8 A. Yes. This photograph was taken on the 21st or the 24th when I
9 was in that village during the bombing, I was here. And you can see me
10 in the photograph. I could see the forces expelling the population from
11 Peje and Gjakova. It was about 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening.
12 During the day we could not enter the village because the police
13 and other Roma workers were there, looting the houses. So during the day
14 we stayed away from the village. We just observed the exit and entry
15 points to the village. In the evening we went and saw what had happened
16 to the people who had remained in the village. We saw the bodies of the
17 victims. There are other photographs showing the burial of these people
18 and so on --
19 Q. Thank you. Just a couple more specific questions to clarify.
20 You said the photo was taken on the 21st or the 24th. Which month was
22 A. Not the 21st or the 24th. This was the 21st day after the 24th
23 of March when we took the photograph. As I mentioned in the statement,
24 in 21 days we buried 78 victims. We could not go to the village during
25 the day because we were scared, so we exploited whatever time at night we
1 could to bury the people.
2 Q. So --
3 A. My family members who were killed, they were taken to Rahovec.
4 The rest of them, we buried them in the village.
5 Q. So just so that we're clear, if you're saying 21 days after the
6 24th, which would put this in the middle of April; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Okay. Can you tell us who took this photograph?
9 A. There were about 15 or 16 of us in the group. One of us had the
10 task to take the photographs. He was Hamdi Fazliu. He had the task to
11 take photographs of everything we did at the time.
12 Q. And the bodies that we're seeing there, is that how they were
13 found? Were they gathered there? Can you explain the state of the
15 A. The bodies of these people who were expelled were found there at
16 the place they were executed. They were in the same position as we found
17 them. They had been sitting there before the execution and then killed
18 there on the spot. Nobody saw them at the time of execution. We just
19 buried them later. There was the 21st day that we took the photograph.
20 Q. And I believe you mentioned that that's you in the background; is
21 that correct? Are you the person who's there walking along the side?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that photo as an
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00646, Your Honours.
3 MR. BEHAR: Can I have 65 ter number 05248.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have finished with
6 the last photograph -- well, thank you, Your Honour. I think that
7 already with the first photograph and the answer, we are going beyond the
8 rules of 92 bis. There was no mention before of such bodies and such
9 pictures and there were no statements made to that effect, by the witness
10 that is.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It's true there was no specific mention. I think
12 you're correct in that. The Chamber's not inclined to see this as part
13 of the Rule 92 bis statement of the witness but as evidence which is
14 being led from the witness, he being here in court primarily so that you
15 may cross-examine. But he being here, opportunity is taken to increase
16 the scope of his evidence.
17 Now, the Chamber is aware that that is a departure from normal
18 procedure, and you're quite correct in that observation. And it is,
19 therefore, a matter which the Chamber will keep under observation. It is
20 not a practice which the Chamber will readily agree to, but given the
21 nature of certain evidence, it would be in the interests of justice the
22 Chamber have that evidence rather than remain ignorant of it. And in
23 those circumstances, the Chamber is prepared to receive such evidence and
24 this appears to be such a case.
25 But the basic concern you raise is one well appreciated by the
1 Chamber and we will keep the matter under observation. And you, of
2 course, if you feel that there is some significant departure that is of
3 great concern to your particular case, should raise the matter
4 specifically as we proceed.
5 Yes, Mr. Behar.
6 MR. BEHAR: Thank you, Your Honour. And I -- just to briefly
7 respond to one point that my friend made, I can indicate that this -- the
8 finding of bodies that had been massacred - to use the witness's
9 word - and the burying of 78 people is in his statement at page 5 in the
10 fifth paragraph.
11 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think there was any suggestion to the
12 contrary by your learned friend. He was saying this specific evidence,
13 though, is something that was quite beyond the 92 bis statement.
14 MR. BEHAR: Thank you.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Please carry on.
16 MR. BEHAR:
17 Q. Sir, there's a new photograph up on the screen. Can you explain
18 to us -- and I'm not sure, is this a close-up of the same bodies we were
19 seeing before or is this a different -- depicting something else?
20 A. This is a close-up of part of the bodies because of the baby
21 which is characteristic for this photograph. So it's a different
22 photograph depicting a small girl that was executed.
23 Q. And do you know who that girl is? Is that someone that you were
24 familiar with?
25 A. Yes, her name is Albana Zeqiri. Her name is on the list of
1 persons that were executed, and I do have documentation pertaining to
2 this execution.
3 Q. That's fine. But just to be clear, was that a person from your
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that photograph.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00647, Your Honours.
10 MR. BEHAR: Briefly, if we could have photo 05251, please.
11 Q. Sir, do you recognise this photo and can you tell us what it
13 A. Yes. This photograph depicts a burned or charred body of a
14 co-villager of ours. 18 of these 78 bodies were burned, and this can be
15 proven by other original photographs that were taken in the period of
16 time between 24th of March and 15th of April, photographs that were taken
17 on the spot.
18 Q. Thank you, sir.
19 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that photograph.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00648, Your Honours.
22 MR. BEHAR: Can I have up photograph 05252.
23 Q. Sir, were you involved in the taking of this photograph as well?
24 A. Yes. I was the leader of this group of 15 or 16 persons that had
25 remained in the area after the starting of the bombing and until the time
1 of these bodies were buried. Together we organised the burial of these
2 bodies. You can see that some persons were placed under the vehicle and
3 then the whole vehicle and the bodies were set on fire.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that as an
6 exhibit as well, please.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00649, Your Honours.
9 MR. BEHAR:
10 Q. Sir, in your statement at page 5 and paragraph 4, you describe
11 how during this time, when these photos were taken, you would hide in the
12 fields between Bela Crkva and Celine.
13 MR. BEHAR: Could we have up photograph 05247, please.
14 Q. Sir, I can see from this photograph that there's no foliage on
15 the trees. Can you tell us when this photograph was taken?
16 A. From the 24th of March up until the 15th of May we were in the
17 village. This photograph was taken in spring and this was the area where
18 we took shelter during the days, from the morning until 6.00 p.m. I'm the
19 person standing with another member of the group who is lying on the
21 We stayed in this place during the day hiding and sheltering
22 ourselves because we were scared, and we would remain here in this place
23 until the evening. This happened day after day. We would stay there
24 during the day, and then in the evening we would carry out the burial of
25 the massacred persons.
1 Q. Sir, can you tell me, if you know, how far you would have been
2 here from Kotlina?
3 A. You mean from Celine?
4 Q. No, from Kotlina, if you know, if you know where that is and how
5 far that would be from where you were.
6 A. I don't understand it, Kotlina.
7 Q. That's fine, sir. Do you know where that village is located?
8 A. No.
9 Q. That's fine.
10 A. It doesn't ring a bell for the moment.
11 Q. That's fine, sir. We can move on.
12 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that photograph
13 as well, please.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00650, Your Honours.
16 MR. BEHAR: And can I have photograph 05253, please.
17 Q. Sir, can you tell us where this photograph was taken?
18 A. This photograph was taken during the time we were away from the
19 village and had gone to a location where the whole population was
20 gathered after the 25th of March. This is about 1 kilometre in -- from
21 the outskirts of the village.
22 Q. From the village of Celine
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how far would this be from the location of the previous
25 photograph, roughly?
1 A. 200 metres more or less. The location of the previous photograph
2 is kind of behind the location depicted on this one.
3 Q. Thank you, sir.
4 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I would seek to tender that exhibit as
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P00651, Your Honours.
8 MR. BEHAR: Finally could we have Exhibit 00634 on the screen,
9 please. I'm not sure if that's correct. If I could have a moment's
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. BEHAR: Sorry, I see the problem. I actually needed -- it
13 was marked today P00634 from this case. That's my fault.
14 Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Jemini, do you recognise this building?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And can you tell what it is?
18 A. It's the village mosque.
19 Q. And can you tell us how you're able to recognise it?
20 A. I recognise it because I lived there. There was only one mosque
21 in the village, a sacred place, and that's why I can well recognise it.
22 Q. In your testimony in the Milutinovic case, you described that
23 this mosque was destroyed in March of 1999. Can you explain to us how
24 you know that?
25 A. Yes. As I said earlier, we moved around the village for two
1 months in the outskirts during the day and in the village itself during
2 the night. Six or seven days after the 24th of March at around 10.00
3 this mosque was bombed. I think we will look at the photograph that
4 depicts the ruined mosque. At the same day at around 5.00 we visited the
5 mosque. It was completely destroyed. It was just blown up.
6 Q. And, sir, can you explain to us exactly what you saw or heard
8 A. We were about 6 or 700 metres from the mosque. We were
9 sheltering at this distance from the mosque. The detonation was so
10 powerful that could almost equal the detonations of other military
11 forces. And after we heard the sound of the detonation, we saw the
12 minaret falling down, and we realised that the mosque had just been
13 destroyed. Since we were curious, in the afternoon at 5.00 a.m. -- p.m.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- we went to see the mosque for
16 ourselves and verify the damage.
17 MR. BEHAR:
18 Q. At that time of that explosion, were there any Serb forces in the
19 town; and if so, who?
20 A. Yes, they were regularly there in the morning. From 3.00 or 4.00
21 they would enter the village, and that day they were in the village.
22 Q. And you say "they," but who is "they"?
23 A. These were police forces with other collaborators, people who
24 were looting the village every day. Every day they went into the village
25 they looted the houses.
1 Q. That's fine. Thank you, sir?
2 MR. BEHAR: Your Honours, I just have about 30 more seconds and
3 then I know Mr. Stamp would like to briefly address you as well.
4 If I could have Exhibit 01800, please.
5 Q. Sir, do you recognise this?
6 A. Yes. This is the mosque after it was destroyed, after the
7 explosion and after the explosives had been placed there and it was
8 destroyed. This picture was taken on the same day.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Those are my questions.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Do you tender that?
11 MR. BEHAR: Oh, yes --
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 MR. BEHAR: Oh --
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we had earlier assigned it as
16 MR. BEHAR: Yes, thank you.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
18 We must, Mr. Jemini, adjourn for today to continue tomorrow
19 morning at 9.00. Your -- we would ask you if you could return tomorrow
20 morning to continue your evidence, and the court officer will show you
21 out now while we attend to a brief procedural matter.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, briefly I think I should advise the
24 Court that of the three witnesses scheduled for our next week, two of
25 them have indicated that they are not able to come. One, as a matter of
1 fact, is hospitalised and will not be able to come, they are K86 and K79.
2 The circumstances in respect to the third who did indicate a difficulty
3 as well, that is John Crosland, is being confirmed. So at this point in
4 time, Your Honours, I am in the process of trying to find replacement
5 witnesses for then -- for next week Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. And
6 I will -- I do expect to send some communication to all the parties
7 sometime tonight or this afternoon indicating what the confirmed
8 situation is, but I thought I should indicate to the Court the witnesses
9 have quite suddenly, during last night, in fact indicated that they are
10 unable to attend next week. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE PARKER: And reserve witness?
12 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, last -- next week was a week in which
13 we had three days confirmed --
14 JUDGE PARKER: Four days --
15 MR. STAMP: Three days --
16 JUDGE PARKER: Friday as well.
17 MR. STAMP: That has -- I've never seen that confirmed in any of
18 the --
19 JUDGE PARKER: Have you seen any suggestion we would not sit on
20 the Friday?
21 MR. STAMP: No, I have not seen a note -- an indication that we
22 would not sit, but we have to go -- in planning the witnesses we have to
23 go by what is indicated as the confirmed dates when the court will sit.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the court timetable shows Friday as a
25 sitting day, does it not?
1 MR. STAMP: No it does not, Your Honour, it indicates that --
2 JUDGE PARKER: I think you may find to the contrary, Mr. Stamp.
3 It says "to be confirmed," but it lists us as sitting.
4 MR. STAMP: In any case, the three witnesses that we scheduled --
5 JUDGE PARKER: You might say I'm sorry, sir, if that was my
6 mistake before saying "in any case" and going on.
7 Mr. Stamp, there is a lack of attention to the Court's
8 responsibility for ensuring the progress of this trial. Now, we had had
9 a difficulty of this type a little before we broke for the Easter
10 adjournment. We are concerned that witnesses are unable to attend at the
11 last minute. We've asked that you have a reserve witness ready in case
12 that should occur in the future. We will not --
13 MR. STAMP: We --
14 JUDGE PARKER: -- make more of it at the moment, but please be
15 aware that it is not to our satisfaction the way things are progressing
16 at the present time.
17 Now, you have an immediate and present problem. Two witnesses
18 have at the last minute told you they are unable to attend, and I gather
19 the third one --
20 MR. STAMP: Is --
21 JUDGE PARKER: -- is suggesting a problem.
22 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Now, that could suggest that they have not had a
24 very adequate notice of their commitment to attend.
25 MR. STAMP: They have, Your Honour. In our submission they have,
1 as a matter of fact, for each of them they were confirmed and a couple of
2 them were subpoenaed some time ago. One is hospitalised, and that is
3 something beyond his control; and I don't really want to go into details
4 about people's personal matters. But in answer to your question, they
5 have been notified in good time.
6 I think I should indicate, since I'm on my feet, that we did
7 calculate for next week that the two to three witnesses that -- or three
8 witnesses that we had on the list would be sufficient to fill the week
9 even if and probably would have to go on into the next week. We thought
10 it would have been very unwise to put in a week where one day would be a
11 holiday a fourth witness, where the three witnesses that were intended to
12 be called for that week were witnesses that we thought would take some
13 time. They are two insider witnesses and one international. So those
14 three witnesses would more than likely have taken the week and that was
15 our main consideration for that week.
16 I would, if I could, do something to ensure that they're here,
17 but I'm afraid, Your Honours, that they have indicated that they can't.
18 And I do apologise to the Court for that.
19 JUDGE PARKER: We will hear from you in the course of tomorrow,
20 no doubt, whether you have made other satisfactory arrangements,
21 Mr. Stamp --
22 MR. STAMP: I would like to indicate to the Court, as I just
23 did --
24 JUDGE PARKER: -- and by the sound of it you are suggesting you
25 hope to obtain substitute witnesses. That, of course, will give rise to
1 a question whether the Defence are in a position to deal with them
2 because there may not be a sufficient time for them to prepare in time.
3 So you'd need to bear that in mind when you're attempting to find further
4 witnesses. And I mention again that there seems not at the moment to be
5 a substitute, spare witness, ready to deal with this sort of emergency.
6 I take it from what you are saying, Mr. Stamp, that it is also
7 the case that you are expecting or have been expecting not to sit on the
9 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated]
10 We did not expect to sit on the Friday. We thought that it would
11 have been confirmed sometime before if that was the case.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Well, you will for the future understand that if
13 there is a listing you need to be ready for it.
14 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. As I indicated, the three
15 witnesses were expected to last for four days or more because of the
16 nature of these witnesses.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a discussion over the evening and
19 will indicate the Chamber's position about the Friday of next week
20 tomorrow, Mr. Stamp.
21 We must now adjourn, resume tomorrow at 9.00.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.56 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of
24 April, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.