Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3549

 1                           Wednesday, 22 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 6             MR. BEHAR:  Good morning.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Before we continue with your witness, Mr. Behar, I

 8     see that Mr. Stamp is here and we have received his e-mail of last

 9     evening.  We're grateful for that, Mr. Stamp, and for the information

10     you've conveyed.  Let us hope that things progress as planned.

11             The Chamber would indicate that it is aware of informal

12     approaches from counsel as to the position on Friday of next week.  The

13     Chamber's position had been that we would sit on Friday unless we were

14     able to get through the witnesses earlier, and we are encouraged,

15     particularly in view of the fact that the two witnesses you're now going

16     to call, one is a 92 bis and one a 92 ter, their subject matter ought to

17     make them shorter witnesses than the witnesses originally listed.  So

18     with that encouragement, we would take the decision this morning not to

19     sit on the Friday in the expectation that it will be possible to finish

20     the listed witnesses by Wednesday.

21             So I hope that assists with your planning and certainly with the

22     planning that counsel for the accused has been having, but it does mean

23     that the Chamber will be conscious of time to finish this week's

24     witnesses this week and so that there'll be three clear days to deal with

25     the witnesses next week.

Page 3550

 1             Is there any news on the third witness for next week, Mr. Stamp,

 2     at this stage?

 3             MR. STAMP:  Not anything confirmed.  We are trying our best to --

 4     to ensure that the Court uses the time.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  You encourage us to leave it in safe hands.  Is

 6     that it, Mr. Stamp.

 7             MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  We look forward to learning about

 9     that, and I hope counsel will work together consistently with their

10     obligations to try and ensure that we can finish the witnesses by the end

11     of the sitting on Wednesday of next week, but the decision of the Chamber

12     will now be firm that we will not sit on the Friday of next week.  So

13     that, I hope, is clear for everybody.

14             Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.

15             Mr. Behar -- Mr. Djurdjic.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

17     Defence will make its contribution to the realisation of your plans and

18     your decisions, but I would like to note one thing.  I would like the

19     Prosecution to promptly advise us about the order of the witnesses,

20     because it's very important for your preparations.  The -- we don't know

21     whether a witness will testify -- come to testify on Wednesday or Monday.

22     It's very important for us to know that.  So I would just like to make

23     this request.  So by close of business on Friday, we be given the exact

24     order of witnesses so that we could prepare and so that your decision

25     could be complied with.  Thank you.

Page 3551

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sure Mr. Stamp will realise that both the

 2     Chamber and you are anxious to know that, but I'm sure much depends upon

 3     the third witness next week that is yet subject to discussion.  So we do

 4     know that two witnesses that have been identified will replace K86 and

 5     K79 in that order, as I understand it, but there's the question of the

 6     third witness yet to be resolved.  Thank you very much.

 7             Mr. Behar, at last you become centre stage.

 8             MR. BEHAR:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honours.  With the Court's

 9     permission there are a couple of very brief issues that I would request

10     to revisit with the witness, and with the Court's leave I will be brief.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13                           WITNESS:  AGIM JEMINI [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar has one or two final questions for you.

18             Mr. Behar.

19                           Examination by Mr. Behar:  [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, sir.  I asked you yesterday about the time that you

21     were hiding in the fields between Celine and Bela Crkva.

22             MR. BEHAR:  Could I have Exhibit P00650 on the screen, please,

23     from yesterday.

24        Q.   Sir, you indicated that this photo was taken in the spring.  Can

25     you tell us, was it taken during that period, I believe you described it

Page 3552

 1     as a 30-day period when you were hiding in the fields and then finding

 2     and burying the massacred people?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And are you able to provide a more specific or a more exact date

 5     for when the photo was taken?

 6        A.   It could have been around 5 April.

 7        Q.   And is there anything specific that makes you think it would have

 8     been the 5th of April?

 9        A.   The reason is because I know the -- when I was positioned in this

10     place.  We did not stay at the same place all the time.  We always tried

11     to fight -- to find the safest place for us to be.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. BEHAR:  If I could next have Exhibit P00651, please.

14        Q.   Sir, yesterday you described - the reference is at page 86,

15     line 24 - that this photograph was taken during a time when you were away

16     from the village and had gone to a location where the whole population

17     was gathered after the 25th of March.  To begin with, are you able to

18     provide a more specific day for when this photograph was taken?

19        A.   This photograph was taken about seven days after the population

20     left the village, after the 28th of March.  So the date could be around

21     the 7th of April, 6th or 7th of April.

22        Q.   And your answer yesterday was recorded as saying that you'd gone

23     to a location where the whole population was gathered after the

24     25th of March.  Can you explain what you mentioned -- pardon me, what you

25     meant by that and who assembled there?

Page 3553

 1        A.   We were not there when the population gathered, because the -- we

 2     did not have any contact with the whole population.  The population

 3     started to move there on the 25th and the 26th of March.  Then the

 4     population were forcibly removed from that area and directed towards

 5     Albania.

 6             I was in Zrze at the time, about seven kilometres from Celine.

 7        Q.   So am I understanding right, then, that you were not in the same

 8     place as the population that you were described -- or that you've just

 9     described?

10        A.   No.  We visited the place during the other days, but on the 25th

11     and 26th we were not there.  On the 28th the population was removed from

12     Celina and was directed towards Albania.

13        Q.   I see.  I think that clears it up for me, sir.  Thank you.  Those

14     are my questions.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

16             Mr. Djurdjic, do you cross-examine?

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jemini.  My name is

20     Veljko Djurdjic.  I'm a member of the Defence team of the accused

21     Vlastimir Djordjevic.  Here with me is Ms. Mary O'Leary, who is also a

22     member of our Defence team.

23             I have some questions for you regarding the statements that

24     you've given so far, and in light of the fact that you've been here

25     before to testify, you know that I have to ask you to wait for my

Page 3554

 1     question to be interpreted and then provide your answer.  And I would

 2     also like you to listen carefully to my questions in order to be able to

 3     give us brief and accurate and precise answers.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now, I would like to have P650 on

 5     our screens, or in fact, we can keep the 651 on the screen.

 6        Q.   You told us yesterday that had population had gathered there, and

 7     this is a photograph of you sitting here.  Is this the group that always

 8     came into the village every evening?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I see that you're lying down here.  Were you not

11     afraid of the Serbian forces?

12        A.   This is the moment when the NATO intervention occurred during the

13     day, and only during that time we felt safe and secure.  The Serb forces

14     at that time were not active.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And will you tell me how the NATO alliance intervened

16     on that day?

17        A.   Well, you know, of course, about the NATO air-strikes.  When the

18     NATO planes were flying over the area, the Serb forces sheltered

19     somewhere else, and we felt safe during that time.

20        Q.   Thank you.  But you remember that when this photograph was taken

21     that there was a NATO action on that day.  That's what you told us, and

22     that's what I'm asking you.  Do you know where this action took place?

23        A.   Not only that day but every day there were NATO air-strikes.  And

24     every day during those air-strikes we felt safe.  Every time that the

25     NATO planes were not heard, we did not feel safe and we took shelter.

Page 3555

 1     However, I don't know what the targets of the NATO air-strikes were at

 2     the time, but we could hear that they were flying.

 3        Q.   Thank you, but I note from your statements that you have no

 4     problems with your eyesight or your hearing, but -- so did you notice the

 5     bombing of Nogavac at that time, for instance?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now tell me, was there anyone who was on guard duty

 8     who is not on this picture, for instance?

 9        A.   No.  The whole group is here lying down.  There was another group

10     who took shelter somewhere else.  We did not stay, all of us, together

11     for security reasons.  We, however, would observe and keep watch in order

12     to see whether the Serb forces were coming towards where we were staying.

13             We did not have a guard when we were here in the photograph.  We

14     were not a group that was armed or organised or anything like that.  We

15     just helped the population.

16        Q.   Well, how did you help?

17        A.   On the 28th March, in the evening, we went by chance to this

18     place that you see here from Zrze and Bellacerke, and that was the time

19     when the population was ordered to go towards Albania.  And, by chance,

20     we met the population here, and we tried to help the villagers as much as

21     we could.  I led the group.

22             The first thing was to separate the dead from the living so that

23     we could help the living and not let them be massacred again.  Another

24     thing was to visit the whole village and identify all the people who had

25     been massacred and killed in the village.  This we did on the Sunday.

Page 3556

 1             Then we also buried the bodies so that the enemy would not take

 2     them away from the village.  This we did.  We buried all of them except

 3     the five people from my family who were taken by the forces.  And we

 4     tried to protect the village and the villagers as much as we could.  We

 5     couldn't do much, of course, but this is what we did during those two

 6     months.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Jemini, but as far as I can see, you're all

 8     laughing in this photograph.

 9        A.   Wherever there is grief, there is laughter as well.

10        Q.   Thank you.  But could you tell me, those tractors, and I can't

11     see what it is there above your head, I'm not sure if it's you, is it a

12     truck, the rear end of the truck?

13        A.   This is a tractor covered with a plastic sheet.  This is where

14     the population were sheltering up to this moment.  Then the cars and the

15     tractors and everything were left there, and the population had to walk

16     the whole distance towards Albania, about 50 kilometres.  So what you see

17     here is a tractor covered with a plastic sheet to protect from the rain.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do I understand you rightly that you say that this is

19     the 28th of March, that this is the date when this photograph was taken?

20        A.   No.  No.  This photograph was taken around the 7th or

21     8th of April.  The tractors and equipment remained there till the day the

22     population came back.  Some of the cars and the equipment were looted by

23     the police and the people who helped them.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could I please -- okay.  Anyway, it's the same

25     picture.

Page 3557

 1             When you were shown Exhibit 650 and when my learned colleague

 2     Behar asked you, you said that you switched -- that you changed places

 3     all time to time, that you moved from one place to another and that was

 4     the explanation for the photograph.  Why did you do that?

 5        A.   We moved because the police would come sometimes very close to

 6     the positions we were.  They came very close to this place that you see

 7     in the photograph, because they looted some of the cars and the trucks

 8     and the tractors.  These were the first days when we were there.  On the

 9     other days we went there only during the evening or at night.  During the

10     day we stayed in safer places.

11        Q.   Thank you.  But why were you fleeing from the police?

12        A.   I don't think this is a logical question.  They killed every

13     living person that they saw, so how could you think we would stay there

14     and not flee from the police?  They exterminated everybody from the

15     territory in the whole area between Gjakova and the plain.  Everybody was

16     expelled or killed.

17             We were the only ones, the 15 or 16 of us, we were the only ones

18     that remained in that area, on the plain, during that period.  And we

19     would have died if they met us.  They had no mercy.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned Djakovica.  How do you know that they

21     were expelling people from Djakovica?

22        A.   The positions where we are here in this photograph is a vantage

23     point, and from there you can see Gjakova, Ura e Shi --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction:  Ura e Shenjte.

25        A.   And from that position we could see the expulsion of the

Page 3558

 1     population from Gjakova and Mitrovica.  Every evening we met people that

 2     were leaving their homes, and that's where we got our information from,

 3     but we could also observe their movements.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did I understand you correctly that you mentioned

 5     Mitrovica?

 6        A.   Mitrovica is very far.  It's on the other side.  But the

 7     population of Mitrovica passed by the area of Celine and Krusha e Madhe

 8     when they were directed towards Albania during the NATO intervention.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree with me when I say that Celine is

10     halfway between Prizren and Djakovica, roughly speaking?

11        A.   Roughly.  You would be right.

12        Q.   And to Prizren and to Djakovica it's about 35 kilometres?

13        A.   From Prizren to Celine there are approximately 17 kilometres,

14     whereas from Celine to Gjakove approximately the same distance, 17

15     kilometres.

16        Q.   Yes, quite right.  It's about 80 to Pec.  Now, tell me, please,

17     weren't you afraid of becoming mixed up with the population who was going

18     from Djakovica towards Prizren?  You talked to them.  You were in contact

19     with them.

20        A.   We were 2 or 3 kilometres far from the asphalt road, the main

21     road Gjakove-Prizren.  Therefore, there was no reason for us to be

22     afraid.  These people were escorted by the police forces on their way to

23     Albania, so we had no contact whatsoever with them.  We did have a

24     contact with a person who was removed from the convoy, who left the

25     convoy.  We met him in the evening, but he was not -- he had -- he had

Page 3559

 1     fainted.  He lost consciousness, and after he recovered he continued his

 2     way to Albania.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, would you agree with me that all these people on

 4     the picture were military-able men?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Jemini, are you from Celine originally, your

 7     family?  Does it hail from there?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  What was your grandfather's profession?

10        A.   He was a farmer.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And what about your father?

12        A.   Farmer.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And how many uncles did you have on your father's

14     side?

15        A.   One.

16        Q.   Was he a farmer too?

17        A.   No, he worked at the railway station, but at this time he was

18     retired.

19        Q.   Was your grandfather alive in 1999?

20        A.   No.  I don't remember my grandfather.  He had died before I was

21     born.

22        Q.   Thank you.  After your grandfather's death did the sons separate

23     or did they carry on with their communal living?

24        A.   They carried on with their communal living for a while, and in

25     1970 the sons separated.  So my father with his children and my uncle

Page 3560

 1     with his children started to live separately.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  From your statements I have drawn the conclusion that

 3     on your family property or compound that the compound was in fact made up

 4     of five houses.  Am I right in thinking that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, all these houses, did they belong to your father

 7     and you?

 8        A.   These houses belonged to my father and myself and my brothers.

 9     We are four sons.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the four of you, you four sons, were you

11     separate from your father?

12        A.   No, we were together.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me what the surface area was of your

14     compound, including the family houses?  What area would that be?  How

15     much land?

16        A.   0.6 hectares.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, around your compound was there a wall?  Was

18     there a wall which separated the street and other yards and compounds

19     from your own?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the wall made of?

22        A.   Concrete bricks, 40 by 20.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And could you tell me how high the wall was?

24        A.   Two twenty to 250 metres.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, was there an entrance gate to your compound?

Page 3561

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the width of that gate?

 3        A.   About 4 to 5 wide and about 3.5 metres tall.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, the transcript correctly records

 5     what was said, but I think you and I understood the fence height to be

 6     2.2 or 2 metres 20 and 2 metres 50, whereas what is recorded is 250

 7     metres.  It's a very high wall.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes.  Now

 9     you've drawn my attention to that, I see it.

10        Q.   Mr. Jemini, let's repeat for the transcript.  How high was your

11     wall, the wall around your compound?

12        A.   Between 2.20 and 2.50 metres.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, yes.  Now, the gate, the entrance gate,

14     what was that made of?

15        A.   Wood.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, is that customary?  Is it usual that at night in

17     the families and their compounds the gate is kept shut?

18        A.   Usually, yes, but there are also cases when the gate is kept

19     open.

20        Q.   Thank you.  As far as I was able to understand from your

21     statements, two houses were completely finished, whereas the other

22     houses, the three other houses, were still under construction.  Is that

23     correct?

24        A.   I think, yes.  You could live in two of them, and in three of

25     them nobody lived.

Page 3562

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Your family comprised of four brothers and your

 2     father.  Did you all live in the same building, in the same house, or did

 3     you use the different premises?

 4        A.   We all lived in the same house.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And the other one was for guests; right?

 6        A.   Yes, for guests, and I had also my office there, my library.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If I understood you correctly, Isuf Jemini did not

 8     live together with you on your -- in your family compound.

 9        A.   No, he didn't.

10        Q.   Thank you.  As we're talking about him, how come he happened to

11     be with you on the 25th?

12        A.   Not only on the 25th, but even the time before that as we are

13     cousins, and since there's only one wall dividing the two houses, our

14     houses are very close to each other.  During the time of the

15     24th and 25th of March, not only with my cousin but with all other family

16     members and other villagers we stayed together.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And why were you all together?

18        A.   Because we were afraid.  We were anticipating the Serb forces to

19     enter the village.  That's why we felt safer when we were staying

20     together.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And how long were you together before this 25th?

22        A.   Every evening we were together.  When we would come after work we

23     would stay together, but during that period for a month we were almost

24     all the time together.  We were discussing possibilities of leaving the

25     place and going to Prizren for safety reasons.

Page 3563

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And who were these others outside your family who

 2     were living with you for that month that you say?

 3        A.   The members of my family, the members of my uncle's family, other

 4     relatives.  We would stay together either in my house or in my uncle's

 5     house.  The women, the children, and the elderly were really scared, and

 6     that's why we kind of felt responsible for them.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And were there -- were they members of the broader

 8     Jemini family?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And did they live in Celine otherwise?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And where is Isuf's house -- or, rather, his family

13     land and his compound?  Compared to where yours was, where was his

14     located?

15        A.   About 15 metres away from our house.  Isuf's house was about 15

16     metres away from the house we lived in.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So do I understand it that he had another gateway

18     into his compound but that otherwise you were next-door neighbours?

19        A.   Yes, but there was another entrance between our houses, a

20     communicating door between the two properties.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Jemini, you graduated from the -- from the

22     technical engineering faculty, if I'm not mistaken; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you were a student at the Pristina university, right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3564

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And when did you graduate?

 2        A.   In 1985.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Were you a student in 1981?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And did you take part in the student demonstrations

 6     of 1981?

 7        A.   Yes, of course.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us the reason for the demonstrations?

 9        A.   There were many reasons for the demonstrations of political and

10     economic nature, and all these reasons brought to that war.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And what were the demonstration -- what were the

12     demonstrators calling for?  What did they want?

13        A.   They were calling for freedom, democracy, and other demands which

14     I cannot remember all of them.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And what about Kosovo republic?  Was that one of the

16     demands they were making?

17        A.   No.  It was too early to demand that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You were a freshman that year, were you not?

19        A.   No.  I enrolled in 1979.  You know that the technical engineering

20     faculty takes you five years to complete it.  So I started in 1979.  I

21     was not a freshman that year.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And did you take part, perhaps, in the

23     Kacanik Assembly, Kacanicka Skupstina?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And when the multi-party system was introduced, were

Page 3565

 1     you perhaps a member of some political party?  And that was in 1991, I

 2     believe.

 3        A.   The Democratic Alliance of Kosova.  The LDK.  It was the only

 4     Albanian party in Kosova until the period after the war.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Well, not the only one, but you say you were a member

 6     of that political party.  Right.  Now, tell me, were you just a member or

 7     did you hold a post within the party?

 8        A.   I was a leader of this party branch for the village, and at the

 9     time I was also the mayor of the village.

10        Q.   Well, you asked the question before me.  What year did you become

11     a leader in the village?

12        A.   In 1986.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And at the age of 25 you were a leader to your father

14     and everyone else, all the other elders of the families in Celine.

15        A.   That was an accomplishment for the village, to have an educated

16     and schooled people to lead them.  From 1986 until two months ago, I led

17     the village.  There were other persons who had graduated from faculties

18     coming from Celine, too.  Hashim Rexhepi is one of them.  So the entire

19     leadership of the village now comprises of educated young men who have

20     graduated from various faculties.

21        Q.   Thank you, but I know many people from that region who graduated

22     before you, before 1986, but what I wanted to ask you was something else.

23             How were you elected the elder?

24        A.   There are many educated persons in many places, but just one is

25     elected the elder.  My work, my activities, my honesty made the villagers

Page 3566

 1     vote for me and elect me as their elder.  There was not much of a

 2     perspective for me.  I wished I had a different perspective, but at least

 3     I did give my contribution in developing the village without any personal

 4     gains.  I did give my personal contribution, as did my family, to develop

 5     and achieve a progress in the village.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And if I understood you correctly, that was at the

 7     elections.  It was at the elections that you were elected village leader.

 8        A.   Yes, of course, that was at the election, as was in other areas

 9     of Kosova.  It's not that one was elected based on the will of a certain

10     group; it was the people who elected their leaders.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And who organised the elections?

12        A.   The leadership of Kosova always organised the elections.  From

13     1986 until 1990, the organs of the Kosova leadership comprising of Serbs

14     and Albanians organised that, and afterwards, after the 1990s, the

15     elections were organised as it is in other states, every four years when

16     the population casts their vote and elects their leaders.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I don't quite understand now.  Was it elections

18     for president of the local commune?  Is that what you mean?

19        A.   Yes, of course, local elections in the villages and communes,

20     municipalities.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Well, if you hadn't met him before, I'm sure you've

22     met Selihi Halim now, and he said that there never was a village leader

23     nor did he ever take part in some Assembly organised to elect a leader.

24        A.   I don't know what Salihi said.  Salihi was one of the villagers

25     in a village made up of 2.000 inhabitants.  Maybe he didn't vote, he

Page 3567

 1     didn't take part in the election; however, I should think he knows

 2     that -- how the election process is carried out.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you this:  Was Celine with the Mala Hoca,

 4     Nogavac, and Krusa part of the same local commune?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not get the name of

 6     the local commune.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Celine belonged to the municipality

 8     of Rahovec.  Rahovec is the township that includes 22 villages, Celine,

 9     Nagavc, and Krusha e Madhe were one local community -- considered as one

10     local community.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Thank you.  And did you perhaps know Ekrem Rexha?

13        A.   I've heard the name.  I don't know him personally.

14        Q.   And did you hear about some instructions in February 1999 that

15     related to administrative affairs issued by Mr. Rexha?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Mr. Jemini, could you please describe

18     where your family farm or property is in the village?

19        A.   Yes.  Our family compound is in a very important part of the

20     village.  It's about 700 metres from the main road at the place where

21     there is a turn off road that goes to Bellacerke, Krusha e Madhe, and so

22     on.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right when I say that the road that you

24     mentioned, the Prizren-Djakovica road, is south of the village of Celine?

25        A.   The main road, the Prizren-Gjakove road, is an asphalt road.

Page 3568

 1     It's in the upper part of the village.  To the east of the road is the

 2     Celine village.  You can find the Celine village and my house as well.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You mention that you can go both to Velika Krusa and

 4     to Bela Crkva through Celine.  Am I right if I say that those are the

 5     places that are at the opposite ends of the road in relation to Celine?

 6        A.   I don't understand the question.  Could you repeat it, please?

 7        Q.   Let me be more specific.  When you enter the village of Celine

 8     from the main road, then you take different roads to Bela Crkva and

 9     Velika Krusa.  There are two different roads?

10        A.   Yes.  The main road goes towards Celine, but then there is a

11     junction where the road separates.  One direction goes towards

12     Krusha e Madhe, the other to Bellacerke.  When you turn right you go to

13     Krusa, and when you turn left you go to Bellacerke.  It's the same road

14     going to these two places.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And this intersection now, in relation to this

16     intersection where the road veers off towards Velika Krusa, where is your

17     house?

18        A.   Right at that intersection.  Sixty metres before you get to

19     the -- to the junction or intersection.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] To speed things up, could I please

22     get a Defence document up on the screen?  That's D002-5633.

23        Q.   Mr. Jemini, I think that you could tell us -- or, rather, can you

24     tell us on the basis of this photograph where the Prizren-Djakovica road

25     is?  Just a moment.  Wait for a little while for the usher to provide you

Page 3569

 1     with the pen.

 2             Can you see the road?

 3        A.   The photograph is not very clear.  If Celine is here -- I'm not

 4     sure where Gjakove-Prizren road is.  Celine is here.  Then this should be

 5     the Prizren-Gjakove road, but I'm not really clear.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  We have a better photograph for that.

 7             Now, this is the village of Celine.  Could you please mark your

 8     house.

 9        A.   If you could zoom in, please, because I cannot see properly.

10        Q.   Well, as far as I can understand, we can't do it on this

11     photograph.  Could I then please have photograph D002-5635 -- or, rather,

12     I would just like to ask the usher to scroll the photograph down a little

13     bit and then to zoom on the village itself.

14             [Defence counsel and usher confer]

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the little dot

16     that's been put on this photograph is really not essential, so we can

17     risk losing it.  This is not an exhibit of any sort.  So we can lose it.

18             Can we just scroll down -- or, rather, up a little bit and then

19     to focus or to zoom in on Celine.  I don't know if you can do it.  Yes,

20     on this part.

21        Q.   Witness, sir, can we do something now?  I know that it's

22     difficult because this is an image taken from space.  Can you find your

23     way around, get your bearings here?

24        A.   The blue point marking Celine is the Celine village.  Just on

25     that point there or is it the wider area with the point in the middle?

Page 3570

 1        Q.   Sir, this is supposed to be an aerial photograph of the village

 2     of Celine and the area around it.  Now, if you recognise some buildings

 3     or roads -- rather, I would like you to mark your family property on this

 4     photograph, and then the location of the school, the mosque, of the road

 5     to Velika Krusa, to Bela Crkva.  Are you able to recognise all that?

 6        A.   Well, I'm just asking, is the whole area here the Celine village

 7     or not?  I don't understand.

 8        Q.   Witness, according to this map it is Celine, and it is indicated

 9     as such.  To my mind it should be the centre of the village.

10        A.   Unfortunately, the photograph is not clear at all.  When I gave

11     testimony the other times, we did have very clear photographs that I

12     could read.  Here I cannot see where the Prizren-Gjakove road is.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If I could ask the usher -- well,

14     that's the next photograph.  It's a map of Celine.  It's D002-5635.

15             Yes, but could you zoom out a little bit?  And now I want to see

16     all the roads.  I think you can see all the roads.

17        Q.   Can you see the roads now, Mr. Jemini?

18        A.   Yes.  If we start from the point A here where Celine is, the main

19     road, Prizren-Gjakove, is here, should be here, but still I cannot see it

20     clearly.

21        Q.   Now I would like to ask you -- well, I didn't see where you

22     pointed, but could you please mark the road leading to Prizren and the

23     road leading to Djakovica.  Could you please mark the Prizren part of the

24     road with the letters PZ and Djakovica DJ.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  [Previous translation continues] ... see the main

Page 3571

 1     road.  That's his problem.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] On the basis of this

 3     photograph, I can minimally say that this is the Gjakove-Prizren road.

 4     However, I cannot see where you turn to enter the village.  I cannot see

 5     the road that takes you from this road to the village because the

 6     photograph is not clear.

 7             As I said when I gave testimony in the other trials, the

 8     photographs were -- the photographs were much clearer than this one.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Yes, but we didn't have an image.  We didn't have -- you had a

11     map and this is an image.  But let me ask you, this section where you put

12     the letter P, and as you head towards the letters DJ, do you see an

13     intersection where a road leads uphill and one leads towards the

14     left-hand side and one leads to where you put the letter I?  Do you see

15     that?

16        A.   Here where I marked?

17        Q.   Well, here where you put the dot.

18        A.   Yes.  This is the entrance to the village.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Would you mind marking this with number 1.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now, as you head down this road towards the

22     village, could you please mark with an X the spot where the intersection

23     we were talking about is located?

24        A.   It must be here.  Then the direction to Krusha is this one.  Then

25     on the opposite side you go to Bellacerke.

Page 3572

 1        Q.   Just take it slowly.  This section where you put the X, could you

 2     please mark it with number 2 also.

 3        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

 4        Q.   For the transcript, I would say that number 2 marks the

 5     intersection with the road leading to Bela Crkva and Velika Krusa.

 6             Now I would like you to put an arrow marking the direction for

 7     Bela Crkva.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Well done.  So B is Bela Crkva next to the arrow that

10     marks the direction of Bela Crkva, and could you please put K to an arrow

11     that will mark the direction of Velika Krusa.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Isn't that already done?  He has marked two arrows

13     in opposite directions, B toward the north and K toward the south.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.  Yes.  I was just

15     actually describing for the transcript.  That's why I was saying this.

16     Otherwise, yes, of course you are right.

17        Q.   Witness, since this is an image taken from space and since it is

18     a very broad image, now, could you tell us where the photograph that we

19     were looking at, the one taken by the tractor, was taken?  Can we see

20     this spot on this image?

21        A.   If we accept that the point that marks Celine is the centre of

22     the village, about one and a half to two kilometres from the centre is

23     the place where we took the photograph.  And this is the place where the

24     whole population had gathered on the 28th.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I can see two dots here.  Could you please make a

Page 3573

 1     circle, and then we can mark it with number 3.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now indicate, if you can see it, the

 4     location of your family property.

 5        A.   Right at the place where I marked with a number 2, where --

 6        Q.   No, no.  Please don't.  Please don't.  Don't go over it, because

 7     then we won't be able to see.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we -- could I please tender

 9     this photograph into evidence.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  We will receive it, but it should be clear

11     for the transcript, in our understanding, that the X with the number 2 by

12     it is the intersection or the junction, and the house is just about on

13     that junction.

14             Now, that -- I see the witness is nodding agreement, so that it's

15     clear.

16             Yes, Mr. Djurdjic?

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, well, I was not sure

18     what the witness would mark here.  I wanted now to reload the photograph

19     and then to have him mark his house, the mosque, and the school as a new

20     exhibit because it's a very small-scale image, and I was afraid that if

21     the witness were to mark everything we wouldn't be able to actually

22     discern anything.  I didn't want to mar this exhibit.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  We will receive it, Mr. Djurdjic, and see whether

24     you can get more detail, but I think you will agree it's a very difficult

25     image for anybody to be working on as a witness.

Page 3574

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be D00071, Your Honours.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I would like to

 3     ask the court deputy to reload the same photograph without any markings.

 4        Q.   Mr. Jemini, this is the same photograph.  Could we please start

 5     with you putting a dot marking the location of your house?  Just take it

 6     slowly.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Can -- the scale is so small, Mr. Djurdjic.  Do

 8     you think we should try to go in a little closer if you're wanting this

 9     sort of detail identified?

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If it's possible, if the court

11     deputy could do it, then I would kindly ask him to do so.

12        Q.   Well, is it better like this, Mr. Jemini?

13        A.   Yes, it's much better now.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Now, since you were able to look at it from a broader viewpoint,

16     could you please just mark the place where your house is.

17        A.   As I said, I -- my house is very close to the intersection.  This

18     position that I marked here.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put number 1, but please don't put

20     it on the intersection of the roads.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Thank you.  And now in relation to your house, where is the

23     intersection that we were talking about a little while ago?

24        A.   Right here.  The junction is right here.  I can mark here where

25     you turn.  So this is where you enter, and this is where you turn, and

Page 3575

 1     the house is right there as I described it earlier.

 2        Q.   Mr. Jemini, yes, but now we lost the house.  Could you please

 3     mark the house.  Could you mark it with an X.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Very well.  And now tell me where the mosque is.

 6        A.   Just approximately here.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And put a number 2 there, please.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And now the school.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.  And a number 3 there, please.

12        A.   [Marks]

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] It's not working.  Can we have a

14     red pen, please?  This won't do.  Can we let the witness draw in the

15     junction with a red pen?  But if you think it's clear, we can leave it

16     that way.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  The witness, I'm afraid, can't improve the

18     photograph, and the problem is the photograph does not really depict the

19     junction.  I believe the Chamber understands the witness's evidence to be

20     attempting, as near as he can, to mark the location.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I now

22     propose that this exhibit be tendered into evidence.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  D00072, Your Honours.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I

Page 3576

 1     think it's time for the technical break.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  It is.  We will adjourn now for half an hour.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 6             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             May I have Exhibit P639 put up, please.

 8        Q.   Mr. Jemini, can you tell me, looking at this opening here, this

 9     aperture, what is that?

10        A.   You can see the window where I was positioned during the time of

11     war.  Opposite to this position you can see a house which is about 12 to

12     15 metres away, and the balconies of that house, and behind that house

13     there's a third house.

14        Q.   Thank you.  So that is the place where you were on the 25th and

15     the 26th of March, 1999; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And what about this white house in the distance

18     there?  Who does that belong to?

19        A.   It is my house.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So you lived in that house, did you?

21        A.   No.  I lived to another -- in another house which is a little bit

22     below.  It cannot be seen on this photograph.  That one was still under

23     construction.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you about this white house.  Did anybody

25     use it or not?

Page 3577

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So was it a guest house?

 3        A.   No.  The guest house is a little bit further up from this house.

 4     This is the third house that was not inhabited and under construction.

 5     Below, to the left, is the house where we lived, where we were staying.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So the two houses you just mentioned can't be seen on

 7     this photograph.

 8             Now, we see a brick building to the right.  Was that your house

 9     or not?

10        A.   You mean the first house with red bricks?

11        Q.   No, Mr. Jemini.  You see the white house and you said that was

12     still under construction, and to the right of that house we can see the

13     roof of another house.

14        A.   No.  That is the house of my neighbour.  Between these houses is

15     the house that comes as a junction from the main road Gjakova-Prizren,

16     but this house is not related to our family houses.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So in between that house and the house still under

18     construction there was a wall, was there?

19        A.   Can you please repeat your question?

20        Q.   Between your neighbour's house and you there was a wall, was

21     there?  Between your two properties.  That's what I mean.

22        A.   Right behind our house there's a wall, but then there is this

23     road which comes as a junction from the main Gjakova-Prizren road.  There

24     is a wall, but between the wall of this house and that house there is a

25     road.

Page 3578

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me now, please, looking across the roofs of

 2     these houses can you see the school?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So where is it?  Could you mark the school for us.

 5        A.   I cannot do that on this photograph.  You should put up the other

 6     photograph that we looked at where the school can be seen.

 7        Q.   Just a moment, please.  So what you're saying is that you can't

 8     see it on this photograph, but can you see the mosque here?

 9        A.   No.  You cannot see the mosque here either.  The mosque can be

10     seen from the other position.  The school, however, can be seen from this

11     point of view.  There are other photographs where the school can be seen

12     from this position.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We'll come to those photographs.  Let's move slowly.

14             Mr. Jemini, did you take this photograph, the one we're looking

15     at now?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  When was this photograph taken?

18        A.   This photograph was taken upon our return in the village.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May we now have Exhibit P643

21     pulled up, please.

22        Q.   Mr. Jemini, could you tell us from what point this photograph was

23     taken and what are these houses?  Where was the photograph taken from,

24     from what location?

25        A.   This photograph shows the house where we lived as a family, the

Page 3579

 1     house that was burnt down during the war.  Then you see the house of my

 2     Uncle Jusuf which is about 12 metres further.  The photograph was taken

 3     from the position where we were hiding, from that window.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  So the house without a roof, is that the house you

 5     were living in?  Is that what you're saying?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, do you think it

 9     would be a good idea to put a number 1 above the house that the witness

10     says was the family house they lived in?

11             JUDGE PARKER:  And the one that was burnt?  Yes, it could prevent

12     confusion.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Jemini, above the roof would you place a number 1, please.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   So number 1 denotes the house you lived in.  Now I want to ask

17     you this:  Is that the house where your parents and relatives hid in the

18     basement, in the cellar?

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  And what about the house to the left, the white house

21     with the roof intact?  Is that your uncle's house?  What was his name

22     again?

23        A.   Yes.  My uncle's son, Isuf, who was with me, or my uncle's house.

24     My uncle's name is Shaip.

25        Q.   Isuf.  I see.  Thank you.  Now would you place a number 2 above

Page 3580

 1     Shaip's house?

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And what about the house to the right with the yellow

 4     wall with no windows?  Is that beyond your compound or is that part of

 5     your compound?

 6        A.   No.  Between the yellow house and our house is this road that I

 7     mentioned so many times.  This was the main road coming from the main

 8     Prizren-Gjakova road.  So this is the road that divides these two houses.

 9     So just next to that wall is this small road.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So all the other houses are outside your family

11     holding and beyond the road?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  What I want to ask you now is this:  Can you see the

14     school on this photograph?

15        A.   No.  This is showing the direction toward Zrze village, not to

16     the other part of the village.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And what about the mosque?  Can you see that on this

18     picture?

19        A.   No.  The school and the mosque are on the opposite direction, to

20     the right.  This is the entrance to the village, and they are in the

21     right part of the village.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you see the entrance gate to your compound

23     on this photograph?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Very well.  Yes, I understand.  Now let me ask you this:  When we

Page 3581

 1     were looking at the previous photograph and the window where you were at,

 2     you couldn't see this house.  Am I right in saying that?

 3        A.   From that window, from this position, you can see this house very

 4     well as shown in this photograph, but that was another position.  And

 5     from that window you could see the house straight before you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Jemini, please answer my question.  A moment ago we saw a

 7     window from which you looked out from.  Now, what I'm asking you is this:

 8     From the window you were standing at where that first photograph was

 9     taken, am I right in saying that you can't see the house which can be

10     seen on this photograph?

11        A.   From that position you can see this house, but it's not depicted

12     in that photograph.  Something else is depicted on that photograph.  But

13     from that position you can see both this house and the direction where

14     these two other houses are.  So you can see in three different directions

15     from that position, other position.

16        Q.   Mr. Jemini, what I'm asking you is this:  You took the photograph

17     from your window.  Why can't you see this house there?  Can you explain

18     that?

19        A.   I don't understand.  From this window you can see this house.

20     Why are you saying that you cannot see the house?  From this window you

21     can see the house.  I don't know if we are understanding each other.

22             If I'm looking straight before me, I will see the Judges.  If I

23     look at a different angle, toward my left, then I will see you.  If I

24     turn to the right, then I will see the Prosecutor.

25             So from this position you could see from that window this house

Page 3582

 1     that was burnt.  From another position you can see the two other houses.

 2     To the right you could see the mosque and the school.  So if you have the

 3     photographs from all these different angles, I can point to you the

 4     facilities or buildings that you want me to.

 5             I think you can tell for yourself that the photograph was taken

 6     from a higher position, from a window, that is.  In the edge you can see

 7     another house, also uninhabited.

 8        Q.   Well, I looked carefully but didn't notice that.

 9             Now, on the floor you were on, or in the attic space, was there

10     one window or more than one window?

11        A.   From the floor from where we observed, there was only one window.

12     There was another window on the opposite side, but we looked through this

13     window.  So there was just this window.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  It would help me, Mr. Jemini, to be clear about

15     your evidence.  If you could tell, me you marked two photographs on the

16     screen.  One of them is shown here, Exhibit P643.  You also marked

17     Exhibit P639, a photograph in which your white house, still under

18     construction, was in the centre of the photograph.

19             Those two photographs, were they taken from the same window or

20     from different windows?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were taken from the same

22     window, Your Honour, from one window through which we observed.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  And in this photograph, Exhibit P643, on the

24     extreme right-hand edge of the photograph can be seen a small part of a

25     white house.  Is that the white house which is in the centre of the other

Page 3583

 1     photograph which you marked?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, it is the house that we

 3     saw in the previous photograph.  So from this window you could see the

 4     window -- the house in the middle, then the white house.  Now, this is

 5     another angle from where you can see only this house.  So you could see

 6     in all these different directions from the same window and take

 7     photographs from different angles.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that has helped the Chamber.

 9             Now, Mr. Djurdjic, is there something more you want to proceed

10     with?

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Now you've answered, and you told the Judge that you can see the

13     white house under construction.  So put a number 3 there, please.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.  And now, could you tell me, where is the entrance

16     gate?

17        A.   If we go back to the previous photograph, please, then I can show

18     where it is.

19        Q.   Very well, but can you tell me, since we can't see it, on what

20     side?  Just point with your finger, or just describe it.  Don't draw

21     anything in yet.

22        A.   You asked me before to point the junction on the main road,

23     Prizren -Gjakova, and the other junction.  This is a number 3 marked

24     house where the road turns in the direction of Krusha and in the

25     direction of Bellacerke.  Between this white house and the house near my

Page 3584

 1     house, there's the gate, the entrance gate, as you turn right from the

 2     main road.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, tell me, this plot that is covered in green, how

 4     wide is it?  In front of your family house.

 5        A.   I think we mentioned it earlier.  The wall that you can see from

 6     my uncle's house and the whole area there is about 60 acres or 0.6

 7     hectares.  It stretches on the surface of 60 to 70 metres on all

 8     directions.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So from the window where you were to your family

10     house here, how far is it?  What's the distance in metres?

11        A.   About 60 or -- 50 or 60 metres.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

14     document into evidence.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be -- excuse me.  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, markings made on P00643 would be

17     D00073.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I would like us to

19     look at P641.

20        Q.   Mr. Jemini, could you explain this photograph to us?

21        A.   This photograph shows straight the position where I was.  This is

22     the house, the burnt house, where we lived; and this is the house where

23     we stayed.  So the window on the roof, if you want me I can mark it, is

24     the position where we were sheltering.

25        Q.   Now I would like you to mark that spot with X.

Page 3585

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   I assume that's the opening next to the X; right?  In the attic.

 3     Mr. Jemini, did you hear me?

 4        A.   I don't think there is interpretation.  I'm not receiving

 5     interpretation.  Can you repeat?

 6        Q.   Yes.  So that's the one.  Now we see the white family house.  Is

 7     this photograph taken from the right-hand side of the building or from an

 8     area to the right of the house?

 9        A.   Yes.  This position is between my cousin's house, Isuf's house,

10     and my house, the one where we were.  This is the opposite direction from

11     the previous photograph, depicted in the previous photograph.

12        Q.   That's quite clear to me, but the lateral area, the lateral part

13     of the house that we can see here; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And there's a road behind this house; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.

17        Q.   Now tell me, we don't see the other three houses?

18        A.   They cannot be seen, because you -- the house that you see here

19     does not allow you to see the other houses.

20        Q.   And when was this photograph taken?

21        A.   This photograph was taken after we returned to the village, maybe

22     in September or October 1999.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And now on this photograph we don't see the house

24     where the soldiers were; is that right?

25        A.   No, you cannot see that house.  That house is next to -- in the

Page 3586

 1     corner where the white house is and the house where we were positioned.

 2     You can see that house in the previous photograph, the one we saw first.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  We'll go back to that, but you say that between that

 4     house and this one where the window is that there was a distance of 10

 5     metres.

 6        A.   Not the house where this -- in this photograph, but the house we

 7     were staying in the -- and which was depicted in the previous photograph.

 8        Q.   Mr. Jemini, I said in the house where the soldiers were.  You say

 9     that the house where the soldiers were and this house were 10 metres

10     apart.  Now I'm asking you how is it possible that you cannot see that

11     house?  And you can see that there is at least 20 metres -- you can see

12     at least 20 metres from the window.

13        A.   Yes.  The house is about 12 to 15 metres away.  I have mentioned

14     it before.  It's not more than that, maybe less.  However, unfortunately,

15     you cannot see it in this photograph.  The distance is not more than 12

16     to 15 metres.  You can see that clearly in the previous photograph.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you make a photograph where all the houses are

18     visible and their disposition, or at least if we could see from two

19     angles, from one spot, all of your family houses?

20        A.   Unfortunately not.  We were not professional photographers.  We

21     probably could have taken other photographs that would be clearer and

22     make the position clearer, but we didn't.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And --

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, first of all I would like to

25     tender this photograph into evidence.

Page 3587

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Markings made on P00641, Your Honours, will be

 3     assigned D00074.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could I now have

 5     D002-5761 on the screen, please.

 6        Q.   Mr. Jemini, well, now we see a different angle.  Is that the same

 7     window?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And what can we see from this window?

10        A.   From this window you could look at two angles.  Now we can see

11     the school in this photograph.  The school is in this upper part here.

12     If you want me, I can mark it.

13        Q.   Please show it.

14        A.   That's the one.  From this angle, we could see the school when it

15     was burned.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And this house that we can see here, what is it?

17        A.   The one close to the school?

18        Q.   Mr. Jemini, this -- what you can see at the left-hand corner of

19     the window, this house that is made of bricks, what is this?

20        A.   Down here.  This is the house that is 12 metres away.  This is

21     the house where the commanders of the army were stationed.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So you didn't have to pull up the roof tiles in order

23     to be able to see where the school was?

24        A.   Not to see the school, no.  To see other things, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  But did you lift the roof tiles at all?

Page 3588

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you do that while the army was in this house

 3     across the road?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you do that while there were guards posted on the floor below

 6     you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And you didn't make any noise, and the guards and the

 9     soldiers didn't hear you?

10        A.   Yes.  Of course we were stressed and we were at risk all the

11     time, so we were careful all the time and tried to make the least noise

12     possible.  So we moved the tiles very little, just to create a little

13     opening from which we could see outside.  So we did not remove the tiles

14     altogether.  We just moved them a little bit to create an opening in

15     order to be able to see outside.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at

18     Defence document D002-5762.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you wanting to exhibit this one?

20             MR. DJURDJIC:  Yes, yes.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, markings made on D002-5761 will be

23     assigned D00075.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Jemini, is this what the attic looked like at the time when

Page 3589

 1     you were in there?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into

 5     evidence.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document ID D002-5762 will be assigned D00075,

 8     Your Honours -- 76, Your Honours.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please have a

10     document, document -- Defence document D002-5762, please.

11        Q.   And while we're waiting for the document, Mr. Jemini, all those

12     photographs that we've been looking at were made after your return from

13     Albania.  Am I right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you?

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, the number you last gave is the

17     number of the photograph that's on the screen.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I asked for D002-5763, and this

19     was an image of the house.  Perhaps I made a mistake.  5762.  D002-5763.

20        Q.   Mr. Jemini, can you tell us what we can see on this photograph?

21        A.   This is the house where we used to live.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, this side where we can see this man standing in

23     front of the house, is this the side from which the photograph of the

24     window was taken, the window that you marked with an X?

25        A.   Can you please repeat the question?

Page 3590

 1        Q.   Yes.  Can you see this man standing on the grass in front of the

 2     house?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is he facing the window that you were on in the house where you

 5     were in the attic?

 6        A.   No.  He's facing the opposite side.  He is facing the wall and

 7     the road which is -- or the alleyway that is behind it.

 8        Q.   And in relation to this photograph here, where would the house

 9     where you were be?

10        A.   The house would be about 50 or 60 metres away to the opposite

11     way, to the opposite direction, in the direction of Krusha.

12        Q.   Okay.  So this man -- this man's back is towards the building

13     where you were.

14        A.   Yes, correct.

15        Q.   Am I right then that the picture, the photograph where we can see

16     the window on the attic where you were, is taken from the side of this

17     building that we can see here but from the other side?

18        A.   Yes.  This photograph has been taken by -- from the white house

19     that we did not live in.  Ninety degrees compared to the other one.

20        Q.   Very well.  Yes, yes.  Well, now you've explained this, but am I

21     right if I say that in this family house where you lived, on the other

22     side of it, so it's again the lateral side but the other side, that this

23     is where the photograph of the window in the attic was taken, the one

24     that we have seen just now with the X?

25        A.   No.  This is a different photograph taken from a different

Page 3591

 1     position.  It has nothing to do with the position at the house where we

 2     were staying at the time.

 3        Q.   Mr. Jemini, please listen to me carefully.  It doesn't matter.

 4     The photograph was taken from a place where one can see the window where

 5     you were standing, the one that you marked with an X.  Now I'm asking

 6     you, since it is not this side of the house when the previous photograph

 7     was taken, so I'm asking you whether it was done from the side but the

 8     other side of the building.  Is that where the photo was taken from?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Please, can I have exhibit -- or,

12     rather, document of the Defence, D002-5759.  No, I'm not going to --

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you want this in as an exhibit?  Thank you.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No.  No thank you, Your Honour.  I

15     don't think that we obtained anything.  We got an explanation as to where

16     the photograph was taken.  That's from the other side, so ...

17             I think that this is actually a document that has already been

18     admitted into evidence as a P exhibit.  I'm not sure about the number.

19     I'm sure that it has been admitted.

20        Q.   This is the place where you rested.  Am I right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   On the -- do you know when this was taken?

23        A.   From the 5th of April to the 20th of April.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put an X to show us who you are on

25     this photograph, where you are.

Page 3592

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And this person to the left of you, who is that?

 3        A.   He's one of the group who was present with us during all the

 4     time.

 5        Q.   And do you know his full name?

 6        A.   Yes.  Xhevdet Ramadani.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And what is it standing against the tree here?

 8        A.   A automatic rifle.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into

11     evidence.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, markings made on D002-5759 will be

14     assigned D00077.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Jemini, in your statement of the 17th of July, you say that

17     up until the 25th of March, 1999, in Celine there were no army and

18     police; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, before the war, did the army and the police ever

21     come to your village?

22        A.   In the last two months, no, but before, yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 2 you said that on the

24     25th of March, 1999, that the army surrounded your village with tanks and

25     armoured vehicles.  Where did you see those tanks and armoured vehicles?

Page 3593

 1        A.   We saw them around the village and at the entry points to the

 2     village.

 3        Q.   And where were you standing at the time?

 4        A.   At 5.00 in the morning I was woken up by my family and told me

 5     that they could hear shots.  Because I was the elder of the village, I

 6     went to the centre of the village near the school to see what was going

 7     on there.  At 5.30 in the morning, the tank entered the village from the

 8     direction of Bellacerke, right at the entrance to the village, about 200

 9     metres from the mosque in the Bellacerke direction.

10             On the opposite direction, Rahovec and Nagavc, there was another

11     position where the tanks and the army were.  On the main road,

12     Prizren-Gjakova, there were APCs and the shots were coming from there.

13     This is what I saw when I went out of my house and went towards the

14     centre of the village.

15             Everybody was upset, worried.  I spoke to people and then I went

16     back to my house.  This is when I saw the tanks and the other cars that

17     were positioned at the entrance of the village.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You said it was 5.00 a.m.?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Was the sun already out?  Had day broken?

21        A.   There was normal light.  I don't know whether the sun had come up

22     or not.

23        Q.   So on the 25th of March, at 5.00 a.m., it's already daylight, is

24     it?

25        A.   Yes, of course.  It's the same time of the year as now, and about

Page 3594

 1     4.30 in the morning or 5.00 a.m. it dawns.  There is daylight.

 2        Q.   And you saw all those tanks in daylight and those armoured

 3     vehicles?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Jemini.  Well, we can't establish that by talking

 6     about whether it's daylight at 5.00 a.m. or not and what could be seen

 7     and what could not.  We'll establish that through other means.

 8             Then you go on to say that the Serb forces attacked the village.

 9     Did anybody put up resistance in the village?

10        A.   I don't know what resistance you have in mind.  This was a

11     civilian population.  There was no army there.  The population didn't

12     have any weapons.

13        Q.   Well, how did you know that the population didn't have any

14     weapons?

15        A.   If you think that a tank is equal to an automatic rifle or a

16     rifle, then you must be wrong.  I know very well as the elder and

17     responsible for organising the life of the villagers, I know very well

18     that at the time there were no weapons, and there was no defence of the

19     village organised.

20        Q.   You said that there were no tanks though.  You said that the

21     villagers did not have any tanks.  Now, how do you know that they didn't

22     have any other weapons?

23        A.   If I am the leader of the village, I should be aware of what the

24     villagers have.  As -- to the same effect, I knew very well what was

25     inflicted by the Serb forces on the villagers.  You know, the villagers

Page 3595

 1     would inform me.  Had we been armed, the Serb forces would have suffered

 2     casualties and damages, and this is the best argument that we didn't have

 3     any weapons to offer them any resistance.

 4        Q.   In that same paragraph you go on to say that there were no KLA

 5     members in the village.  What is the KLA?  Could you tell me?

 6        A.   The KLA was a unit or an organisation that came out of the people

 7     as an organised defence for the civilian population.  They would go out

 8     to those places where the Serb forces would launch offensive.  There was

 9     no KLA in our village because there was no intervention on the part of

10     the Serb forces on our village.  So there was no need to defend our

11     village.  Therefore, in Celine there was no defence organised in the

12     village to oppose the Serb forces.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And how do you know what you've just told us?  How do

14     you know about all that?

15        A.   What do you mean by saying "all that"?  What is "all that"?

16        Q.   Your entire previous answer, what the KLA was, what kind of

17     organisation, who it protected, how it offered protection, and everything

18     else that you presented to us here just a moment ago in your answer.

19        A.   From previous experiences.  From the 25th of March and a year

20     earlier.  In those places where the Serb forces would launch offensives,

21     the KLA would emerge in order to protect the population.  They would have

22     these protective units.  This was like an automatic response to the

23     offensives launched by the Serb forces.  This was not the case with our

24     village, however, because the police entered the village only on the

25     25th of March, not earlier, and therefore there was no reason to organise

Page 3596

 1     any defend of the village.  The village was not attacked earlier.  The

 2     police and the army encircled the village early in the morning and

 3     afterwards entered the village on the 25th.

 4             I would like to ask you a question.  What was the reason for the

 5     intervention of the Serb army and police in the village on the

 6     25th of March when we were just civilians?  We didn't cause anyone any

 7     harm or damage.  We lived our lives quietly.

 8        Q.   Mr. Jemini, well, I'll ask my questions on the basis of your

 9     answers.  Do you know that Celine, for example, had a third-level of

10     fortification or third-degree fortification and that there was fighting

11     in the direction of Bela Crkva to the entrance of Celine on the

12     25th of March?

13        A.   What was the date?

14        Q.   The 25th of March, 1999.

15        A.   There was no fighting whatsoever.  There was no resistance

16     offered by the population of Celine on the 25th of March.  The offensive

17     began in 3.00 or 4.00 in the morning in Bellacerke.  They massacred in

18     Bellacerke.  They completed their operation there and then advanced in

19     the direction of Celine.  After they had finished their job in

20     Bellacerke, they advanced in the direction of Celine, entered Celine, and

21     did what they did to the population of Celine.

22             If you have any knowledge that there was resistance, then I would

23     like you to inform me; but I'm more than [Realtime transcript read in

24     error "almost"] positive that there was no resistance whatsoever offered

25     from our village.

Page 3597

 1        Q.   And how do you know about the events in Bela Crkva then?

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar.

 3             MR. BEHAR:  Sorry for the interruption.  I just noticed that the

 4     interpretation at line 16 says almost positive.  I believe he said more

 5     than positive.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Jemini, did you hear my question?  How do you know what

 9     happened in Bela Crkva on the 25th of March, 1999?

10        A.   In the morning of the 25th of March, I was informed about the

11     intervention of the Serb forces in Celine but not about the massacres

12     committed by the police in the evening.  Two days later, on the 27th,

13     when I came back from Celine to Zrze, I noticed the corpses between Zrze

14     and Celine.  I came across 40 bodies.  And in Zrze I was informed about

15     the events of the 25th of March that occurred in Bellacerke village.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 3 you state that at 5.30 the shelling

17     started, and the shooting, in the village.  So where was the shooting?

18     Can you tell us?  Where did that take place?

19        A.   At around 5.30 in the morning and until 7.00 in the evening, from

20     all four sides you could hear shooting and shelling uninterruptedly.  It

21     resembled a war between two fronts, between two armed states and not

22     between an army and unarmed civilians.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Jemini.  How do you know that most of the elderly

24     women and the children gathered together in one group?

25        A.   As I -- as I visited the centre of the village at around 5.00 in

Page 3598

 1     the morning, I returned to my house, and my family, my relatives, close

 2     and distance -- distant relatives gathered in a place in the village.  I

 3     took them there.  We left the women, children, and elderly there, and we

 4     returned to the position that I mentioned earlier in the house where we

 5     were.  I positioned myself there at around 6.00 in the morning.

 6        Q.   I apologise, but I didn't understand where you took the women and

 7     the children.

 8        A.   We took them to a location in the centre of the village.  It was

 9     an open space.  It was like a meadow.  It seemed to be a safer place for

10     the population of the village.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And what about the others?  Did the other people

12     bring the -- the women and children to the centre of the village and then

13     leave them there?

14        A.   Yes.  The whole village.  In addition to the 2.000 inhabitants of

15     the village, there were people from other villages who had fled to our

16     village, staying as guests with acquaintances and families.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You then go on to say in that same paragraph,

18     paragraph 3, that people who were younger, between the ages of 18 and 40,

19     that the men stayed to one side.  Where was it that they stayed?  How do

20     you mean stayed away, stayed to one side?

21        A.   Knowing the aim of the Serb police and army forces, the men of

22     the age 18 and 40, in order to avoid any ill-treatment of their family

23     members, would stay aside and not amongst the group of women, children,

24     and elderly.  They didn't have one specific position to go to.  They

25     stayed in different places, just like myself and my uncle's son did.  We

Page 3599

 1     found this position in that house.  So there was no like pre-agreed

 2     congregation place.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So the two of you hid.  Am I right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And what about the men between the ages of

 6     18 and 14 [as interpreted]?  Were they able-bodied men?

 7        A.   You could find a small number of people who were not able-bodied

 8     men, but the others were healthy and able-bodied men.

 9        Q.   Well, did you think you would be safer in hiding?

10        A.   I don't see any logic in your question, because we thought we

11     would escape death if we hid.  Hiding was safer for us.  It was means to

12     avoid risk and danger.  And many people survived after they hid.  I mean,

13     those people who didn't leave.  However, those who did not leave their

14     houses and who did not go in hiding were killed.  They were -- their

15     bodies were charred, massacred.  These were younger men of the age of 25,

16     30, 40, 50.  So all those people who did not leave their houses and who

17     did not go into hiding suffered consequences.  They were killed in their

18     own homes.  And I think the same thing would have happened to us, too, if

19     we didn't go into hiding.

20        Q.   Well, you could have been outside with your families, your wives

21     and children.

22        A.   After 50 years of pressure from the Serb authorities, we knew

23     very well that young men would be targeted, would be massacred and

24     killed.  That's -- that's why we thought we wouldn't be safe amongst the

25     women, the elderly, and the children.  And that they would not be safe

Page 3600

 1     amongst us.

 2        Q.   And if there was no -- had no -- if there had been nobody in the

 3     houses, then there would be no reason for the shooting; right?  Am I

 4     right in saying that?  Had the houses been empty.

 5        A.   I'm very sorry that we have to explain this plan of Serb forces

 6     and their offensives.  We all know how these offensives and plans were

 7     carried out.

 8             All the noises, all the attacks carried out on the first day,

 9     were carried out in order to secure and enforce their position, the

10     positions of the Serb forces so they can later massacre and kill the

11     population.  On the 25th and the 26th of March, the people were removed

12     and went to the position that we spoke about.  The village was empty.

13     There was no one there.  Those that they found in their houses, they

14     killed them, massacred them.  So the house was -- the village,

15     correction -- was empty, and the police and the army had full control of

16     the village because they had positions at every entry point to the

17     village.

18             Up until the moment the Kumanovo Agreement was signed, nobody

19     could return to his or her village.  They carried out this ethnic

20     cleansing.  The police had control of these villages.  They looted them,

21     burnt them, and they could easily see and detect any presence in the

22     village.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I concluded that you knew of the plan in

24     advance.

25        A.   Are you referring to the plan of the Serb army or of the plan of

Page 3601

 1     my population?

 2        Q.   Tell me about the plan of your people first, the population.

 3        A.   The population had its duty to leave -- to live quietly, to stay

 4     in their homes in case of offensives, to gather on one spot.  Nobody

 5     planned to leave the village or to go to Albania.  Nobody thought of this

 6     ethnic cleansing, of this massacre, of this 96 per cent destruction in

 7     the village and of this massacre of the population.  Forty-five per cent

 8     of the population were massacred.  So the population could not envisage

 9     all this, but the Serb forces and their leadership could.  They did have

10     a plan.

11        Q.   And what about the KLA?

12        A.   I think we managed to explain the issue of the army.  Had there

13     been army presence in the village, the -- the -- nothing would have

14     happened.  The fact that they destroyed, they killed in the village,

15     proves the opposite to your point.  Do you have anything that would prove

16     that we caused the Serb forces any damage or any casualty?

17             We lived quietly, minded our own business until the

18     25th of March.  There was nothing going on in the village.  We minded our

19     own work and business.  We lived if our own houses.

20             As the elder in the village, I was very upset.  It was very

21     difficult for me to understand how children -- how a child can be killed,

22     how an elderly man or woman can be killed, let alone en masse killing.

23     We can never forget throughout history what happened.

24             Within two months, I personally had to bury 78 bodies, massacred,

25     charred bodies of civilians, innocent civilians killed without any

Page 3602

 1     reason.  I simply cannot imagine how something like this can be done.

 2             I've travelled a lot in Serbia and Yugoslavia, had contacts with

 3     different people, intellectuals, and I really feel embarrassed on behalf

 4     of a Serb who lived in Kosova for things that the Serbs committed,

 5     because this was totally inhumane.

 6             Imagine this:  I had to watch the execution of my parents and

 7     could do nothing to stop that.  And many co-villagers suffered the same

 8     thing.  I really cannot understand.  How can a human being do what they

 9     did?

10             I had many Serb colleagues, many Serb contacts.  I travelled

11     through the whole territory of Yugoslavia, had contacts with different

12     enterprises, but I can hardly compare what I saw and met during these

13     trips to what happened in Kosova, and that really worried me.

14        Q.   Now I would like to ask you to give me specific answers to my

15     questions.  You provided me with a lengthy answer, but you didn't give me

16     what I was asking for.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And I think that it's time for our

18     technical break, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the second break now and resume at

20     1.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   In paragraph 4 of your statement of the 17th of July, you say

Page 3603

 1     that the infantry started advancing towards the village on foot in rows

 2     four deep.  Where did you see those soldiers?

 3        A.   I saw the soldiers from the window on the asphalted road

 4     Prizren-Gjakova.  There were trucks that unloaded the soldiers, and they

 5     came from that direction towards the village.

 6             I also saw them at 5.30 in the morning when I went towards the

 7     centre of the village, because from the village its geographical position

 8     allows you to see everything around.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please answer my questions directly.  Now

10     you mentioned some things that we have already gone through.  In order to

11     be able to complete your examination as soon as possible.

12             Am I right that the soldiers wore green-brown camouflage

13     uniforms?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Am I right when I say that you were able to observe the insignia

16     of the double-headed eagle, the Yugoslav double-headed eagle?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  At what distance were the soldiers when you saw them?

19        A.   About 7 to 8 metres from the roof to the road Celine -- of

20     Celine-Krusha.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure about the distance,

22     whether 7, 8 metres or 70 or 80 metres.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Celine-Krusa road or what

25     about Celine-Krusa?

Page 3604

 1        A.   At the junction in the direction of Bellacerke, the road is only

 2     4 to -- 5 to 6 metres from the roof, and from there I could see the

 3     movement of the army.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Yet we didn't see the road on any of the pictures.

 5        A.   In one of the previous pictures, the one where you could see the

 6     school, the road is visible there.  If you put up that photograph, I can

 7     show you.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 5 you say that you saw 35 soldiers break

 9     the gate to your farm; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And on the pictures that we saw today, we actually

12     didn't see the gate.

13        A.   The gate was open.  You could not see the gate, but the soldiers

14     entered and went into the houses.  They also went to my cousin's house.

15     Then we also could see the house where the commanders were stationed.

16     From the place we were hiding, we could see the movements of the army

17     during the whole day.

18        Q.   Mr. Jemini, please answer my question.  Don't now go repeating

19     your statement which I have and the Trial Chamber has and the Prosecution

20     has.  So just answer my question.  Did those soldiers broke down the gate

21     to your yard?  Yes or no?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So the gate had been closed.

24        A.   That gate was not locked.  It was not locked.  However, they

25     still broke it down.

Page 3605

 1        Q.   Mr. Jemini, how can a gate that is closed but unlocked be broken

 2     down?

 3        A.   This is what they did, the soldiers that were present there.  In

 4     normal circumstances, you open the door -- or the gate normally.  In that

 5     instance, they broke it.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And how did they break it down?  Can you please

 7     describe it?

 8        A.   This gate, which was the big one, which is 3 metres high, it has

 9     a smaller entrance which can be opened.  They broke the part around that

10     small door.  I could hear them.  I could not see them, but I could hear

11     them because they were very close to the place where I was.  And then I

12     saw them when they entered the yard.

13        Q.   In paragraph 6 you say that you recognised the soldiers from

14     Orahovac; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And from the window where you were, you say that you

17     were able to observe the soldiers enter the houses all over the village?

18        A.   We saw many soldiers that entered the houses in the village.  Of

19     course we did not see each and every one of them, but the result was that

20     there was burning and flames and smoke coming out of those houses.  So

21     they had been there.

22        Q.   And then you go on to say that you saw 12 houses being set on

23     fire during that day.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   In what part of the village were those houses?

Page 3606

 1        A.   In the upper part of the village, between the mosque and the

 2     school.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 9 you say that the commanders who

 4     entered the house next to which you were used the balcony of the second

 5     floor.  Can you say in what direction did this balcony face?

 6        A.   The balcony faced the -- towards the west on the side of the

 7     Celine-Krusha road.  It was in front of the window where I was at.

 8        Q.   Yes, but the balcony is at 90-degree angle to the window where

 9     you were, to the right.  So if you're standing on the balcony and if

10     you're facing straight on the balcony, what can you see?  What is it that

11     you face?

12        A.   I don't understand the question.  However, the position where we

13     were at the window and the position of the house in front of us 12 metres

14     away where these members of the army were, the commanders were, they were

15     facing each other.

16        Q.   Mr. Jemini, when you go out onto the balcony in the house where

17     the soldiers were, your window is to the left; and if the person on the

18     balcony does not turn in any direction, where is that person then looking

19     at?  What is the person looking at?

20        A.   The person could -- can see the land or the part in front of the

21     house.  The person can look at the window where I was at, and the person

22     can look in three different directions from the balcony.

23        Q.   Yes.  I'm asking you for just one direction.  So what is this

24     person looking at in front of them?  I'm not asking what's to the left or

25     what's to the right, but I'm asking you what is straight ahead.

Page 3607

 1        A.   You can see the house we were living in and my cousin's house.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Did you see any radio stations that they used?

 3        A.   Yes, they did have radio equipment.

 4        Q.   And did you see such radio stations when you did your national

 5     service in the army?

 6        A.   Radio equipment existed at the time when I did my military

 7     service, but at that time I did not deal with them.  I saw these

 8     commanders use these radios.  However, you must know that it was very

 9     difficult for us to observe freely what kind of equipment they had in

10     their hand, because we were in danger.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see the radio station?

12        A.   I saw the equipment in their hand, but I did not analyse what

13     kind of equipment it was.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And did they have anything on their heads?

15        A.   No, just military uniform.

16        Q.   So they didn't have any headphones?

17        A.   No, they didn't.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what an R-U-P is?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You didn't see a RUP or R-U-P in the army when you were there?

21        A.   I don't remember ever seeing one.  I worked in an office.

22        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 10 you say that the commanders used a

23     special code, and it was difficult to understand their orders.  Can I

24     then conclude that you didn't understand what it is that they were

25     saying?

Page 3608

 1        A.   Considering the situation we were in, we could not really follow

 2     the conversation, every single word of it.  However, we could hear

 3     something, especially in one of these calls.  They mentioned 444, and I

 4     think I explained in my statement what I heard.  They spoke about the

 5     situation on the ground.  They had several such conversations.

 6             One of these occasions was around 1700 hours when I heard,

 7     "What's the situation like in Celine?"  I heard them saying, "Is it the

 8     same as in Recak?"  And the answer was, "Twice as much as Recak."

 9             We learned then what had happened or what would happen.  We were

10     scared, so scared, because we thought that many more people would die in

11     the next days.  We were in shock.

12             Around 1900 hours there was this request to stop the offensive

13     and the shooting and the shelling in Celine.  At that moment, the

14     offensive was stopped and there was no other shooting heard.  This is

15     what I could observe.

16        Q.   Thank you.  So you claim that you heard the people that they

17     talked to as well?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And you've repeated today, as you said yesterday,

20     that at 1900 hours, when the action was supposed to stop, that it did

21     stop.  And in paragraph 14 you say that the shooting went on throughout

22     the night.

23        A.   No.  The daylight offensive, the one launched from the morning

24     until evening, was stopped, whereas the positions around the village

25     would intervene every now and then for their own safety during the

Page 3609

 1     evening; but the daylight offensive stopped, and the majority of soldiers

 2     that were inside the village left.  However, you could hear from two or

 3     three different positions gun-fire at various time intervals.

 4        Q.   You say that the soldiers took positions at different points in

 5     the village.  Now, what positions did you see?

 6        A.   The first position was at the entry to the village, the junction.

 7     The second position was in the direction of Krusha e Madhe, at the

 8     entrance to the village.  You could hear gun-fire from that position too.

 9     The third position was at the school.  These were the positions of the

10     night of the 25th, the ones that we observed, positions that were manned

11     by them and from where we heard gun-fire during the night.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So those were the positions they took up at night,

13     and during the night you saw them there at those positions; is that

14     right?

15        A.   I don't know how you interpret this verb "see."  We could hear

16     the gun-fire from -- coming from these two or three different positions.

17     We didn't go to tour these positions and greet them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And you could also see that there were 20 to 30

19     soldiers at each of these positions.  Is that what you're saying?

20        A.   You could hear the noise, which indicated that there was a group

21     of people.  Now, whether there were 20 or 30 of them, that we didn't

22     know, but we just assumed that it should be a group of approximately that

23     number of soldiers.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 15, you say that your parents and three

25     other family members went home on the 26th of March, 1999, at around

Page 3610

 1     8.00.  Did you come down from the attic when they arrived?

 2        A.   No.  No.

 3        Q.   And did you talk to any of your family members?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Who did you talk to and where?

 6        A.   My father came to that house first.  He came to the floor where

 7     we were, to the attic, and explained what had happened on the 25th in the

 8     area where they were staying.  Then he left.  He returned to the basement

 9     where the others were staying.

10             Later on, after some time, my mother came to the place where we

11     were.  She brought me some food.  And despite my request for them to go

12     back to my wife and children, they didn't.  I actually refused to eat the

13     food that my mother brought as a sign of protest.  My mother was begging

14     me to leave, not to put my life in danger, and left, went back to the

15     basement where my father and my uncle, my uncle's son and his wife were.

16             As she was leaving and going back to the basement, about 10 or 15

17     minutes away -- metres away from the house where we were, from the road,

18     Celine-Krusha e Madhe, a truck came with paramilitaries or Serb policemen

19     with red head scarves, beards, shaven heads --

20        Q.   I do apologise, but we're wasting valuable time.  I asked you a

21     question and now you're going on to recount your statement further.

22             Now, your father, what did he say?  Where had they been the

23     previous day?

24        A.   They had been to the location where we had taken them to the

25     previous day together with the other people from the village, the

Page 3611

 1     location near the centre of the village.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned a moment ago, although I didn't ask you

 3     that, you mentioned that a military vehicle passed by with 12 specials in

 4     it, special force men in it.  Can you describe the vehicle?

 5        A.   It was a military truck, open, without a cover sheet, and there

 6     were soldiers on it, standing.

 7        Q.   The truck was moving and didn't stop.  Am I right in saying that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And in your statement you go on to describe what they

10     looked like, what kind of uniforms they had, so we'll move on.

11             And in passing, they were talking to your mother, as you say in

12     paragraph 17.  Am I right?

13        A.   That's correct, but with their constant movement in the direction

14     of Krusha --

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... right in saying that from

16     the place you were in the attic you heard the conversation, you heard

17     them talking?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Just tell me where your mother was when this event

20     with the truck took place, this moving truck.

21        A.   She was between the house where we were and the house opposite to

22     us by the road.  About 10 or 12 metres far from our position.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 18, am I right in saying that you state

24     that around 9.00 in the village there were about 2 to 300 soldiers?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3612

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And in paragraph 19 you go on to say that about 9.30

 2     a.m., about 30 soldiers entered your yard?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And then in paragraph 20 you say that the soldiers asked your

 5     father in Serbian if he had any money.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And heard all that from the window you were standing at?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And then the soldiers forced your parents and relatives to move

10     towards the gate and then found themselves between two houses.  Am I

11     right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Jemini, these are all parts of your statement,

14     and at no point did you make any mention of the police or any

15     paramilitaries, whereas yesterday, in response to a question from my

16     learned friend Mr. Behar, you just talked about paramilitaries and some

17     police force that I didn't understand what it was, but it would appear

18     that it wasn't the real police force.

19             Now, how come all this difference between the 17th of July, 1999,

20     what you said there, and what you told us yesterday?  Why all this

21     discrepancy?

22             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sorry, Mr. Djurdjic, but if you look on

23     page -- the page you're on of the statement, in English, the first full

24     paragraph at the top mentions special forces police, describes them,

25     et cetera.

Page 3613

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my version the

 2     vehicle with 12 specials, it says:

 3             "At that moment I noticed that some soldiers were approaching the

 4     village from the direction of the main road.  Within ten minutes I

 5     noted -- noticed a vehicle with 12 specials."  "Specials," not police.

 6     Just specials.  And they were the soldiers who talked to his mother, and

 7     that was the passing truck.  And the first time that he mentions the

 8     police is in paragraph 25 when he came back from Zrze.  That is to say

 9     two or three days later.  And in paragraph 28 when the bodies were being

10     collected up, and I'll come to that in due course, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  That's not in respect of the English translation.

12     There's a mention and a description of the special forces police and a

13     description on how they were armed and, "As they were driving past my

14     house, they saw my mother in our yard," is the beginning of the next

15     paragraph.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can see that now.

17     It says special forces police.  Even if that were the case, they were

18     soldiers passing by in the truck.  In all the previous paragraphs,

19     exclusive mention is made of the army, soldiers.  Nowhere is the police

20     mentioned.  So even these men passing by in the truck didn't stop by his

21     house but were passing by.

22        Q.   If we leave aside the paragraph 16 where this word "police" is

23     mentioned, on that 25th and 26th no mention is made by you, Witness, of

24     the police anywhere there.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  The next paragraph, I'm afraid, does go on

Page 3614

 1     commencing at about --

 2             "Within half an hour, which is about 9.00 a.m., 2 to 300 soldiers

 3     in the village; there were groups amongst them that had red ribbons like

 4     the men that I had seen in the truck.  Some groups had white ribbons.

 5     Some groups had headbands around their heads.  Some headbands were red.

 6     Some were patterned mainly red or black.  They were all carrying long

 7     knives.  They went from house to house."

 8             Now, it may be that you will need to clarify what the witness was

 9     intending to saying, but I don't believe you're able to say from this

10     statement that there is no mention or no description that could be of

11     police or special forces police, which is the fuller description given in

12     the first paragraph.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Jemini, you described to us the soldiers who were on the

15     truck, in the truck.  Now, had you ever seen any soldiers like that

16     before anywhere?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, how were you able to conclude that they were

19     Special Police Forces or special forces police as it says in the English

20     version of your statement in paragraph 16?

21        A.   I believe that in my statement I described the method applied on

22     the 25th of March and the following days.  We could tell the members of

23     the Serbian army because we saw them every day.  However, these

24     paramilitaries who carried out the burning, the massacres, and so on,

25     they were different.  They wore different kinds of uniforms.  They had

Page 3615

 1     ribbons.  They had beards.  They had shaven heads.  This is how we could

 2     tell that they were different from the regular army.

 3        Q.   Mr. Jemini, you've just said that the first time you saw these

 4     soldiers was when they were passing by in the truck on the 26th of March

 5     and that you hadn't seen them before that.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   No, not before the 25th of March.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 16, your introductory sentence was this:

 8             "I noticed that the military was approaching the village from the

 9     direction of the main road."

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel repeat his question after that,

11     please?

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Yes.  In paragraph 16, you say that some soldiers from the main

14     road was approaching the village -- were approaching the village.  What

15     uniforms were those soldiers wearing, the ones who were approaching the

16     village?

17        A.   Green and black, dark pattern of camouflage uniforms usually worn

18     by the regular army.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in paragraph 18 you say:

20             "At about 9.00 there were 2 to 300 soldiers in the village."

21             What uniforms were those soldiers wearing?

22        A.   I already described that.  On the second day, the 26th of March,

23     there were soldiers, there were paramilitaries in addition to the regular

24     army of the previous day.  There were different sorts of groups.  I

25     mentioned this.  Twelve persons on the truck.  And there were other

Page 3616

 1     persons who came with blue clothes, and there were policemen who were

 2     wearing regular police uniforms.  And in addition to these different

 3     groups, there were these people with beards, shaven heads, with white --

 4     correction, red headscarves and so on.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  But in paragraph 19 you say that:

 6             "About 30 soldiers at 9.30 entered my yard."

 7        A.   Seven or eight soldiers came in the direction of the house where

 8     we were.  Seven or eight others went to the basement where my parents

 9     were sheltering.  Others went to the house of my uncle, and there were

10     seven, eight, or ten others who stayed the whole day in the house next to

11     the house where we were.

12             So I know that there were around 30 or more than that now.  We

13     can maybe count them and come up with a exact figure, but this was the

14     approximate figure.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you see your parents and relatives when the

16     soldiers took them to between the two houses?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Between which two houses were they taken?

19        A.   On the upper part of the house we inhabited.  Immediately behind

20     that one.  Next to the wall which was alongside the main road.

21        Q.   Thank you.  "So they took us closer to the fence of the yard."

22     Right?  Or the wall.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You said that the soldiers left your yard.  What time

25     was that?

Page 3617

 1        A.   They did not leave during the day.  They only left after they

 2     committed the execution.  They, however, stayed all day at the junction.

 3             And during the whole night and the morning on the 17th of March,

 4     they still were at the junction.  Correction, 27th of March they still

 5     were at that junction.

 6        Q.   Mr. Jemini, my question was:  When did the soldiers leave your

 7     yard?  At what time?

 8        A.   About 12.00 midnight, 26th of March.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And there was no nobody left in your compound, no

10     soldiers left in your compound after that?

11        A.   No, but there were soldiers at the junction and on the road

12     immediately beyond the house.

13        Q.   When you came down from the roof, you passed by the place where

14     your parents and relatives had been?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you go up to them?

17        A.   No, I didn't.  I didn't dare to, because the police and the army

18     were very close, and because we were afraid, and because we were

19     exhausted.  We went round the place -- around the houses.  My house, my

20     uncle's house.  Because it was very dangerous, because we knew that

21     if we -- if we were seen by them we would be executed.  We didn't stop.

22     We just went on towards Zrze.

23        Q.   Mr. Jemini, you said that the gypsies and the police collected up

24     the bodies of your parents and relatives and that they had been taken

25     away from that place where you saw that they were, the place they were at

Page 3618

 1     before and that you went to; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you remember what you told the German

 4     forensic team when you talked to them on the 21st of October, 1999?

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I think, Mr. Djurdjic, we must stop you there.

 6     We've let you run on six or seven minutes to try and find a logical place

 7     for you to pause.  Perhaps you can take up that subject tomorrow when we

 8     continue.  We would point out that you had virtually the whole day today

 9     in cross-examination.  I don't need to say more, I'm sure.  You must be

10     very near the end of your cross-examination.

11             We adjourn now and continue tomorrow.

12             I'm afraid, Mr. Jemini, we must adjourn again and ask you to

13     return tomorrow to finish your evidence.  Thank you.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day

16                           of April, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.