Page 3745
1 Monday, 27 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
6 Ms. Gopalan.
7 MS. GOPALAN: Good morning, Your Honours. The next witness is
8 Mr. Ndrec Konaj.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
12 THE WITNESS: Morning.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation which
14 is shown to you now.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: NDREC KONAJ
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Now Ms. Gopalan has some questions for you.
22 Examination by Ms. Gopalan:
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Konaj.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record.
Page 3746
1 A. [Interpretation] My name is Ndrec Konaj.
2 Q. And what is your date of birth?
3 A. I was born on the 8th of October, 1954.
4 Q. Mr. Konaj, where do you live now?
5 A. Now I live in Peje, Street UCK, number 149.
6 Q. Thank you. And what is your occupation, Mr. Konaj?
7 A. I am a building technician.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Konaj, did you provide a statement to the
9 Office of the Prosecutor on the 12th of June, 2001?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Have you recently had the opportunity to review this statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And having reviewed your statement, are you satisfied that the
14 information contained in the statement is true and accurate to the best
15 of your knowledge and belief?
16 A. To the best of my knowledge, it's true. There might be some
17 minor changes due to the way you express your sentences, but in fact it's
18 true in general.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I seek to tender the witness's
21 statement. It's 65 ter 2372.
22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00670, Your Honours.
24 MS. GOPALAN:
25 Q. Mr. Konaj, did you testify in the trial of
Page 3747
1 Prosecutor versus Milutinovic et al. in October 2006?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Have you recently had the opportunity to review your testimony in
4 that case?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And having reviewed your testimony, I understand that you wished
7 to make some changes to it. I will read out the most substantial change
8 that you wished to make and ask that you confirm that the change is
9 correct.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. At page 4889, line 14, of your testimony you were asked to
12 describe the colours of some vehicles that you saw. The question was:
13 "Q. Can you please describe the one that you identified as a
14 military Pinzgauer, what colour was it?"
15 You answered then:
16 "A. Blue."
17 I understand that you would like to clarify that you had
18 misunderstood the question and that you thought you were being asked
19 about the police Pinzgauer, which was in fact blue.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. There were two
22 Pinzgauers, one military, one police. So that's why there is this
23 misunderstanding regarding the colour because a police Pinzgauer was a
24 blue colour with big tires. It was the same -- the military one was the
25 same but maybe I didn't know how to say -- to express the right word for
Page 3748
1 it. But in general we referred to them as Pinzgauer without making any
2 distinction.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I object to this
5 manner of correcting the transcript, that is, alleged correcting of the
6 transcript. I don't mind the witness saying whatever in answer to the
7 questions of the Prosecution, but this way of correcting the transcript
8 after so many years and after the Prosecution did this in the Milutinovic
9 trial and continuing in this trial, I really object, because this is not
10 a correction of the transcript, this is a new answer at a new trial, and
11 it can affect the cross-examination and my questions. Thank you.
12 JUDGE PARKER: The concern of the Chamber, Ms. Gopalan, may be
13 the same as that of Mr. Djurdjic or it may be different. I'm not
14 entirely sure. If the witness says that there is something that he finds
15 incorrect in the statement, it would be better if you allowed him to say
16 what it is that he sees to be wrong and what he now wishes to say, rather
17 than you repeat what you may have been told at some earlier time by him.
18 And -- now, I suspect that that is the point Mr. Djurdjic was concerned
19 about as well. So no leading, in effect, upon changes to previous
20 testimony.
21 MS. GOPALAN: Okay.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 MS. GOPALAN: Perhaps I could then rephrase the question --
24 JUDGE PARKER: But we've got the answer now. I think you move
25 on.
Page 3749
1 MS. GOPALAN: Okay.
2 Do I have permission at this point to tender the testimony into
3 evidence, Your Honours?
4 JUDGE PARKER: If you're ready to do that, yes, it will be
5 received.
6 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Konaj --
8 MS. GOPALAN: It is 05050, 5050 is its 65 ter number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00671, Your Honours.
10 MS. GOPALAN: I'll now read out the witness's in-court summary.
11 The witness is a Kosovo Albanian resident of Pec. In 1999 he was
12 a building inspector. The witness will describe events in Pec on the
13 27th and 28th of March, 1999, which led to the expulsion of
14 Kosovo Albanians by Serb forces. On the 27th of March, 1999, the witness
15 was staying at his father's house in the Karagaq district of Pec town
16 with his family and some others.
17 In the afternoon, a group of paramilitaries entered his father's
18 yard, shot at the house, and gave the occupants five minutes to leave in
19 the direction of Montenegro
20 The witness and his family did as instructed and started walking
21 through the streets of Pec. The witness's group was stopped several
22 times, and on one occasion they were stopped by a group of nine men in
23 civilian cars. The witness was assaulted as was his uncle, who was hit
24 in the back with a rifle-butt.
25 On the 28th of March, 1999, the witness and his family were
Page 3750
1 expelled from Pec. En route, the witness saw military, police, and
2 paramilitary troops at every junction to prevent deviation from the
3 route. They were later stopped by a mixed group of Serb forces, who then
4 asked them to return to the town centre where there were thousands of
5 people.
6 About 20 trucks and buses were filled with these displaced
7 persons and driven off in the direction of Prizren. Later that night,
8 the witness go onto a bus with his family. As the convoy travelled
9 south, they were stopped at a check-point opposite the police station in
10 Djakovica. There, the witness saw members of the police and
11 paramilitaries beating a group of men.
12 The bus travelled on towards Prizren, and at the junction to
13 Verbica they were told to leave the bus and walk to Albania. Soon after,
14 other buses appeared and the witness got on one which dropped him off at
15 the border crossing. The witness and his family then walked to the
16 border, where they were told to throw their identification documents into
17 a large box. The witness crossed into Albania on the morning of the
18 29th of March, 1999.
19 That's the end of the in-court summary.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I was too quick, Ms. Gopalan, earlier. We have
21 the witness's explanation for his change. What he hasn't told us is what
22 colour was the Pinzgauer that he was describing. He said it was not the
23 blue one, which was police, but he has not describes the colour of the
24 military one. So you may wish to explore that.
25 MS. GOPALAN: I believe that's already addressed in the
Page 3751
1 Milutinovic transcript. It's the lines that follow --
2 JUDGE PARKER: If you're happy with that, okay.
3 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Konaj, I have some questions for you. As you know, the
5 Chamber already has before it your statement and testimony in the
6 Milutinovic case, so I have some very specific questions. Let's begin
7 with the events on the 27th of March, 1999. On this day, you were at
8 your father's house, in a neighbourhood in Pec, with your immediate
9 family, some relatives, and others.
10 For the record, this is page 3 of the statement in English.
11 You say that in the afternoon, masked Serbian paramilitary troops
12 entered the neighbourhood and 15 of them entered your father's yard fully
13 armed. Mr. Konaj, what did these paramilitaries say to you and the
14 others who were present at the house?
15 A. They ordered us to leave the house in five minutes and walk in
16 the direction of Montenegro
17 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 4 of your statement you say that you and
18 your family walked to the stone bridge, and there you were stopped by two
19 paramilitary soldiers who came from the cafe Stari Most. These two
20 paramilitary soldiers that you mentioned, did you recognise them?
21 A. By sight, yes, but not by name. I didn't know where they lived.
22 I knew them by sight. They were familiar faces.
23 Q. And why were they familiar faces to you?
24 A. I had seen them passing by in the streets of the town, but I
25 didn't know who they were. I didn't know their names.
Page 3752
1 Q. Thank you. You then continued walking, and in the cafe Iliriana,
2 you came across another group of seven policemen. And after that - this
3 is at paragraph 7 of the English - you say that two private cars stopped
4 and nine men got out.
5 Could you tell us what these men did?
6 A. At this stone bridge, as I said, the soldiers stopped us. They
7 separated me and my uncle and put us against the wall, and then our
8 family members started crying. They asked us how much money we had. I
9 said I had 150 Deutschemark. My uncle said he had 10 dinars. And he
10 said, Why do you have so little money on you? I had more because I was
11 the head of the family. That's why I had more money. Then there was a
12 large number of other families expelled from their homes. They told us
13 to leave.
14 When we came to Iliriana, there were these seven policemen.
15 Seven I'm saying; maybe I'm not exact in their number. One of them was
16 dressed in the police uniform. He said to us, You shouldn't walk on the
17 main road. Walk by the side-streets. That's why we started walking
18 by -- on the side-streets.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Now, let's take you to when your family
20 was stopped by these two private cars, and you speak about nine men
21 getting out of the cars. What did these men do?
22 A. That's why I was saying. Two cars came by speedily, and they
23 stopped, and they got out of these cars. They ordered me, as I said, and
24 my family to walk in the direction of Montenegro. They said, You have
25 asked Clinton
Page 3753
1 our mothers. They didn't spare any curses. One of them hit me on my
2 chin, another one hit my uncle with a rifle-butt. Then someone from the
3 second car shouted in Serbian: Go to -- let them go, and then we walked
4 in the direction of the bus stop.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. On that day - this is the
6 27th of March - you say that you saw groups of Romas and police, that
7 they were drinking together, and that they were breaking into shops and
8 stealing goods. This is at the top of page 4 of the English statement.
9 Where did you see this, Mr. Konaj, in which part of Pec?
10 A. When we left the house of Salih Dreshaj, because we went there on
11 the 27th of March - after they told us to go to Montenegro - there are a
12 couple of stores there. There were group of Roma who entered these
13 stores and stole goods. We saw them stealing goods and drinking beer.
14 Q. Was --
15 A. We were taken to the centre.
16 Q. Was there anyone else with these groups of Roma? Did you see
17 anyone else?
18 A. In every street or side-street on the 28th of March, that is, on
19 the next day, even on the 27th, in every street or side-street, there
20 were two, three, in the main streets, seven, eight policemen, military
21 men, dressed in blue uniforms; and they told us where to go.
22 Q. And when you say that you saw goods being stolen, could you tell
23 us what sort of goods these were?
24 A. That's true. I saw them coming out of the store, of the pharmacy
25 with -- loaded with medicaments.
Page 3754
1 Q. And do you remember how big this group was?
2 A. You ran into them every 5, 10 metres, all along the way, on both
3 sides of the street.
4 Q. Do you remember how many people there were in this group that
5 were taking medication or medicaments out of the pharmacy?
6 A. I can't give you an exact figure. It was not a large group, but
7 two, three people, I would say, came out of this pharmacy along -- or
8 along -- from other stores along the way until we went to the centre.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Konaj, I'd now like to move on to the events on
10 the 28th of March. For the record, this is in paragraph 4 of page 4 of
11 the English.
12 You say that on that day you saw crowds of people in the street.
13 They had been evicted from the area of the Catholic church.
14 Mr. Konaj, how do you know that these people had been evicted
15 from the area of the Catholic church?
16 A. At 8.00 in the morning, together with the son of my best man, we
17 left the house and we saw the crowd coming through the side-street. We
18 asked them what happened, and they said that they were evicted from their
19 homes and ordered to go in the direction of Montenegro. And my -- I
20 asked my mother and my mother-in-law to get to the car of my best man;
21 and my wife and my two daughters joined the crowd of people. And all of
22 us, with my uncle, his wife, we walked in the direction of Montenegro.
23 At the school of economics, they stopped us and said, Go back to the
24 centre.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, before we move on to what happened at the school
Page 3755
1 of economics, these people who told you that they had been ordered to go
2 in the direction of Montenegro
3 head in that direction?
4 A. The police, the army, the paramilitaries, we couldn't tell who
5 exactly, but they -- of course, the same persons who ordered us or who
6 expelled us from our home.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Now, you say that at the school of
8 economics they stopped you and asked you to go back to the centre. What
9 did you see in the centre when you headed back there?
10 A. As I already said, on the way from SUP in the direction of the
11 main street, and in that area that I mentioned with these stores, when we
12 went to the centre from Hotel Metohija, Hotel Korsa, all over, was full
13 of people, people evicted from their homes and sent to the centre.
14 In the middle there were lorries, trucks covered, refrigerator
15 trucks, buses, aid trucks, and so on where people got onto; and they were
16 sent in the direction of Albania
17 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Konaj, you say that your family got on one
18 of these vehicles at about 10.00, so later that night you got on a bus
19 with your family. When you got on the bus, did you know where you were
20 going?
21 A. I want to make an explanation. My uncle and my wife got on this
22 truck with a tarpaulin. I asked them to come back, and we went to the
23 last bus together with my daughters, two daughters. The soldier came and
24 asked my friend Bekim Kurti to give him money. He gave him
25 40 Deutschemark, and he allowed him and my first cousin to enter the bus.
Page 3756
1 I wanted to give that man money, but he didn't ask me for that. So we
2 were nine persons that went into this bus; but when they opened the doors
3 people rushed in, about maybe 100 of them, and they sent us in the
4 direction of Albania
5 Q. Thank you. And you also say in your statement - this is English
6 page 5, paragraph 2 - you were stopped at a check-point or the bus was
7 stopped at a check-point in Gjakova opposite the police station. What
8 was happening in that area? What could you see from the bus?
9 A. I was the last in the bus from our group. Ahead of us there was
10 a covered truck. They stopped us at the police station in Gjakove.
11 There were policemen there. They were dressed in camouflage uniforms. I
12 recognised one of them, Miki Stojanovic, nickname Lapoc. He said that
13 all the men should come down, but the driver who was a military man, he
14 didn't allow any one of us to get off the bus. And he said to this man,
15 I have orders to take all of them to Prizren. The other guy that I
16 mentioned said, Okay, when we come back we'll see about that. So we
17 continued on our way in the direction of Prizren.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you.
19 A. We got off the bus at the entrance to Prizren.
20 Q. And you say in your statement that you were stopped in Prizren at
21 the junction that leads to Vermice. This is in paragraph 4, page 5, of
22 the English. Could you tell us what the driver of the bus told you at
23 that junction?
24 A. When they left us there he said, This is the road to Albania
25 straight to Albania
Page 3757
1 Serbia
2 Q. Thank you. And, Mr. Konaj, you say that after that you were
3 picked up by another bus and you arrived at the border at approximately
4 5.00 a.m.
5 A. I wanted to add something. When we were told to go to Albania
6 first one bus came from the direction of Prizren, then another three, and
7 then another two. They told us to walk in the direction -- in that
8 direction, but we didn't. We wanted to get on a second bus. We -- I
9 didn't want to join the convoy with my daughters. I was scared that
10 something might happen to them, so we continued by bus to Vermice, and
11 another military person said to us, Please, just stick to the main road.
12 Don't walk on the side roads because the area is mined.
13 So we continued from Vermice and walked for 7 kilometres. When
14 we arrived at the border, there were policemen there, there were also
15 people dressed in military uniforms, and there was a big wooden box. We
16 were told to throw our identification cards, passports, driver's licences
17 there, registration plates. I pretended that I was throwing my ID card
18 there, but I didn't throw it, in fact, and I have it to this day.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Now, I would like to move on to your
20 return to Pec. When was it you returned to Pec, if you recall?
21 A. I don't know the exact day. It was a problem for us to get back.
22 It was impossible to get back when we wanted. When the NATO forces
23 entered Kosova, personally I wanted to go in right away, but I couldn't.
24 Q. When you did return to Pec, do you recall the condition of the
25 buildings in Pec town?
Page 3758
1 A. In the centre of the town and Peje in general, there was a lot of
2 damage caused. The picture was horrific.
3 Q. And when you speak of damage caused, could you tell us what sort
4 of damage it is that you saw?
5 A. The houses were burnt down, destroyed; they were razed to the
6 ground.
7 Q. And what was the condition of your father's house, if you
8 remember?
9 A. When I went to see my father's house, it was completely
10 demolished in the inside. From the outside it was a little bit burned.
11 There was a fig tree in the yard that caught the fire and the part of the
12 house near the fig tree. The house of my uncle, which is in the same
13 courtyard, was burnt completely.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. At this stage I have no further questions
15 for you.
16 A. Thank you.
17 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, before I sit down, perhaps I should
18 ask the witness to confirm that apart from the corrections that he made
19 that the transcript is true and accurate to the best of his knowledge and
20 belief. I believe that step was skipped when I was tendering the
21 transcript.
22 JUDGE PARKER: If you believe it was skipped, deal with it.
23 MS. GOPALAN:
24 Q. Mr. Konaj, before I sit down, I'd like to take you back to the
25 questions I had about your transcript. We made some corrections to the
Page 3759
1 transcript which we read out in court. Now, having made those
2 corrections, if you were asked the same questions again today would you
3 provide substantially the same answers?
4 A. Yes, of course.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Konaj. My name is
11 Veljko Djurdjic, and I'm a member of the team of defence for the accused
12 Vlastimir Djordjevic, and with me here is my assistant,
13 Ms. Marie O'Leary, a member of the Defence team. I will have a few
14 questions for you.
15 I would like to begin by asking you about your testimony today,
16 your answers to the questions of the Prosecutor, Ms. Gopalan. So far you
17 have made several statements, some were written, and there were also
18 testimonies here before the Court, I believe in the Milosevic and
19 Milutinovic cases. One of these testimonies was in 2002 and the other in
20 2006; am I correct?
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 Q. Thank you. Toward the end of the questioning by Ms. Gopalan you
23 said that you didn't know when it was exactly that you had returned to
24 Pec; and as far as I could observe, you did not actually witness the
25 events in Pec from the moment when you left up until the moment when you
Page 3760
1 returned; correct?
2 A. From the 28th, when we left, that is, in 1999, up until the
3 liberation of Kosova, I wasn't in Kosova; that is true.
4 Q. Thank you. And you don't know how your house happened to be
5 damaged or the house of your father and your uncle because you weren't
6 there, you did not actually witness this?
7 A. That's also correct, but as I already told Ms. Gopalan -- she
8 asked me how, in what state, I found these houses and Peje in general
9 upon my return, not during the war. And upon my return, I found the
10 houses in the state I already described.
11 Q. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Now I would like to refer
12 you to paragraph 28 of your statement.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] But just let me say for the
14 benefit of the Trial Chamber that the statement by Mr. Konaj in the
15 English version and Albanian, I read the statements and I followed from
16 numbers 1 to the end. So when I say "paragraph 25," this will be in the
17 English version on page 5, or rather, paragraph 28, I apologise. So of
18 page 5, paragraph 4.
19 Q. Now, Witness, today you said that the bus driver who drove you
20 from Pec said on the way -- on your way out, This is Serbia. This is not
21 your country. Go to Albania
22 A. Correct. That's true.
23 Q. Thank you. And your recollection is better today than when you
24 gave your statement - and I believe the second statement was on the
25 12th of June, 2001?
Page 3761
1 A. I hope you will never go through that experience, and that
2 experience can never be forgotten. I was expelled in the middle of the
3 night with my whole family, most of it comprising women. I was the only
4 man with my uncle amongst those women.
5 Q. Thank you. We are talking now about the time, the moment, when
6 you actually boarded the bus for Prizren. So I am referring to that
7 driver. Do you recall that you gave a statement in 2001 to the
8 Prosecutor, or rather, to the investigator?
9 A. I know you're referring to 2001 statement. I gave this statement
10 to Garry Selsky, an investigator from The Hague who came to Albania
11 Then I gave another statement in Peje. So there were several statements,
12 so I don't know which one in particular you're referring to. Can you
13 please remind me.
14 Q. So regarding your statement from 2001 - and this is the reason
15 why I would like you to listen very carefully so we can clear this
16 up - Ms. Gopalan referred you to paragraph 28, or rather, paragraph 4 on
17 page 5. The first paragraph is not a paragraph, really. It's just
18 from -- a continuation from the previous page, but the fourth full
19 paragraph. So did you say there that that comment referred to the driver
20 who drove you from Prizren to the border, or the driver who drove you
21 from Djakovica to Prizren? So let's just try and clarify this.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's more clear. The driver
24 who brought us to Prizren was the same driver as in Peje, and he said the
25 same thing, Go to Albania
Page 3762
1 words. Whereas the driver who took us from Prizren to Vermice, he asked
2 us kindly to stick to the main road and not to the sides because of the
3 terrain that had been mined.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan.
5 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you, Your Honours. As the witness is being
6 asked a number of questions about his statement, I wonder whether the
7 statement should be called up on the screen so that it's easier for him
8 to refer to the paragraphs that he's being asked questions about, or I
9 have a hard copy of the Albanian which I could hand to him as well to
10 ease the process.
11 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment I've not discerned that the witness
12 is in any way unable to recall the statement, but if at any time, sir,
13 you need to check the statement, just indicate that, and we can let you
14 have a copy or put one on the screen.
15 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I believe
17 that the witness was able to clarify this on his own without the text,
18 but I tend to agree with Ms. Gopalan that perhaps we should also have the
19 statement on the screens. But I will ask Ms. Gopalan to do that once we
20 come to that.
21 Q. Now, let's go on, Mr. Konaj. Now, to paragraph 25 of your
22 statement - in the English version that's page 5, the first full
23 paragraph - this has to do with a man called Miki Stojanovic. For now,
24 let me just say that you mentioned today during your testimony that this
25 was a police officer who had a camouflage uniform on; is that correct?
Page 3763
1 Did you say that today, earlier today? Have I understood you correctly?
2 A. No, you have misunderstood me. I don't remember ever saying that
3 he was dressed in uniform. He was in civilian clothes, whereas the
4 others were dressed in both police uniforms and military uniforms. I
5 never said that Miki Stojanovic was wearing uniform when I saw him.
6 Q. I wrote down, and I'm pretty certain, but never mind, you've
7 corrected yourself now. But I believe that the first time that you did
8 say that this man, Miki Stojanovic, wore a camouflage uniform on. But
9 never mind, let's move on.
10 A. You probably misunderstood me.
11 Q. Thank you. At the start of your testimony today you described
12 the difference between those Pinzgauers. Now I would like to ask you,
13 Could you please describe what one of those Pinzgauers looked like and
14 what the other one looked like?
15 A. Just one small clarification to avoid any misunderstanding. I
16 want my words to be interpreted properly. I state with full
17 responsibility that I never said today that Miki Stojanovic was dressed
18 in uniform. He was amongst others who were dressed in police and
19 military uniforms, so I want this to be corrected.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. I believe we've already cleared this up.
21 Even if this was an error, an interpretation error or if you've misspoke,
22 we've corrected it. But now this -- let's go back to these Pinzgauers,
23 and I've asked you to describe the two Pinzgauers, one and then the
24 other.
25 A. One was blue. I never served in the army, so I wasn't very clear
Page 3764
1 in this, but I know that one of them was a police colour, blue, whereas
2 the other was green, military colour. They were with big tires. They
3 didn't have tracks.
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Konaj, where are you employed currently?
5 A. I do not work at the moment. I am in the construction business,
6 but I'm not employed.
7 Q. Thank you. When you returned from Albania, did you have
8 employment; and if so, what type?
9 A. From 1999, when we were expelled, until this day, I was not
10 employed with any body or organ.
11 Q. All right, but did you do any work since you returned from
12 Albania
13 type of job?
14 A. I already said that privately I did do some construction
15 business.
16 Q. Can we understand this to mean that you have a company of your
17 own?
18 A. No, no.
19 Q. Did you work for someone, for some company or some construction
20 entrepreneur?
21 A. I have acquaintances, family, friends, when they had need, for
22 example, in Albania
23 friend of mine; but I was not employed with a company to do that.
24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Konaj, have I understood you to say that you were
25 born in Gornji Novo Selo in Djakovica municipality?
Page 3765
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I believe the witness did not
2 receive translation.
3 Q. Was your father from this place?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Did his father and his brothers, did they live in
6 that village when you were born?
7 A. Yes, they lived in a communal household.
8 Q. Thank you. How many brothers did your father have?
9 A. Two.
10 Q. Thank you. When did your father leave or move from that village;
11 and if he -- and if so, where did he go?
12 A. An interesting question I would say. In 1956, when I was only 2,
13 my grandfather, with my father and two uncles and other members of the
14 family, sold their property and moved to Peje, to Karagaq neighbourhood.
15 Q. Thank you. What was your father's occupation?
16 A. During the time we lived in Novoselle, Gjakova municipality, he
17 worked in the primary school at Novoselle e Ulet school, then at the
18 primary school of Carrabreg in Decane. When we moved to Peje, he was a
19 worker, a manual worker, in a factory in Peje.
20 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me when and where did you
21 complete your high school, or rather, intermediate education, the
22 technical school that you attended.
23 A. In Prizren. I was there in 1969 as far as I remember, and
24 completed secondary school in Peje. I don't remember for the moment the
25 name of the school. I graduated in Peje.
Page 3766
1 Q. Thank you. When reading your statements I found out that you did
2 not serve in the army. Could you tell us why not?
3 A. I wasn't summoned, and I did not go there to volunteer.
4 Q. You mean in the SFRY you were not -- you did not receive call-up
5 papers, and you were not recruited?
6 A. In these 55 years of my life, I was never recruited. Maybe they
7 did send a summon, an invitation, to go and complete my military service,
8 but I didn't receive it. I didn't receive the call-up.
9 Q. Thank you. Tell us, when did you get married?
10 A. If I'm not mistaken, in 1970 or 1971 [as interpreted].
11 Q. Thank you. And your wife's family never inquired whether you had
12 served in the army?
13 A. Unfortunately, they were not the ones who were asked about our
14 marriage. We loved each other, and we didn't ask much when we got
15 married.
16 Q. Thank you. But in our parts - and I mean that includes Pec and
17 Djakovica - they say, He who is not fit for the army is not fit for
18 marriage either, and that was always taken into account.
19 A. Your Honours, can I reply to this question or assertion with your
20 permission?
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's go out together, take me
23 somewhere, and we can agree on that.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. All right. When we finish this.
Page 3767
1 Tell me, when did you find employment?
2 A. I started work in 1976 as a building inspector in Gjakove.
3 Q. You mean the municipality of Djakovica
4 A. [Previous translation continues]...
5 Q. Thank you. And then they didn't ask you whether you served in
6 the army either?
7 A. [Previous translation continues]... I didn't then.
8 No, not even then.
9 Q. After that job, when did you find another one?
10 A. I worked in Peje commune with contracts. The former secretariat
11 for communal works, Aco was his name, I don't recall his last name, he
12 employed us but with a contract. We worked there -- I worked there again
13 as a building inspector, construction inspector.
14 Q. As of what year?
15 A. I am sorry, but I am not certain about the year. It was before
16 1998, that's for sure. It was before 1998.
17 Q. Thank you. In the times of the SFRY, were you a member of the
18 League of Communists?
19 A. No, I was never a member. I didn't have a card.
20 Q. Thank you. And after 1990 or 1991, at the introduction of the
21 multi-party system, did you become a member of any of the political
22 parties?
23 A. Which party are you talking about?
24 Q. Any. After 1991 the multi-party system was introduced.
25 A. Yes, I understand now. I was a member of the
Page 3768
1 Democratic League of Kosova party, and after three or four years I am a
2 member of the Presidency of the Christian Democratic Party of Kosova and
3 member of the Presidency of the Peje branchs for this party.
4 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me, who was the president of the
5 Christian Democratic Party of Kosovo when you were a member of the
6 Presidency from Pec?
7 A. The distinguished academician, Mark Krasniqi.
8 Q. Thank you. You've just said, and I also saw from the statements,
9 that you were married and you had four children, including two sons.
10 Tell me about your son Ndue, what was his occupation?
11 A. At what time are you asking me about?
12 Q. Well, let me first ask you a precise question: What kind of
13 schooling did he have?
14 A. He finished high school.
15 Q. Thank you. Did he find -- did he have a job before he left for
16 Switzerland
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you. And when did Ndue leave for Switzerland?
19 A. I sent Ndue to Switzerland
20 together with Ilir, my uncle's son. They went through various routes
21 until they reached there.
22 Q. And do you remember what season it was, what time of the year in
23 1999 when you sent him there?
24 A. It was either spring or summer. I'm not sure. I don't know for
25 sure.
Page 3769
1 Q. Thank you. How about your son Bashkim, what schools did he
2 complete?
3 A. He finished the eight-year school.
4 Q. Did he work after the primary school?
5 A. Before he was 14, he went to my brother in Norway and he lives
6 with him.
7 Q. Thank you. What year was that?
8 A. It was in December 1990.
9 Q. Thank you. And what is the name of your brother, he's your
10 brother, not cousin; right?
11 A. I have five brothers. Whom do you ask me about?
12 Q. The one in Norway
13 A. His name is Gasper.
14 Q. Did your son Bashkim return to Pec in 1999?
15 A. No, he didn't, because he didn't have proper papers to be able to
16 travel. He hadn't gotten his nationality yet at that time, a
17 citizenship.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I call up the
20 Defence Exhibit D002-6056.
21 Q. Mr. Konaj, this is an aerial view -- this is an aerial view of
22 Pec together with Lodja. Can you recognise it?
23 A. No, I can't see anything I know. Loxhe, yes, now I see it. This
24 is where I live in the vicinity of Loxhe marked with A.
25 Q. May I ask you to mark the place with a marker that you will be
Page 3770
1 given.
2 A. It's here.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues]... place where your house used
4 to be.
5 A. If this is the main road Peje-Decan, here -- this line here.
6 This is the main road, Peje-Decan road. But as the crow flies it's 1 and
7 a half kilometres. If you walk, it's 5 to 6 kilometres. I was wrong
8 here.
9 Q. Thank you. You are a building technician, so please do it
10 precisely on this nice map. Will you please put a number 1 to mark the
11 location of your house.
12 A. Now I'm getting older and my hand isn't as firm as it used to be.
13 If someone can help me, is this the Peje-Decan road? If someone shows me
14 that this is the road, then I can tell you approximately where the house
15 is.
16 Q. Mr. Konaj, you put this dot, or several dots, on the map and said
17 it was your house, this one that is --
18 A. [Previous translation continues]...
19 Q. -- fuller --
20 A. I said to you that I made a mistake because --
21 Q. If this is a mistake, then let's wait a minute.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we erase this? Thank you.
23 Q. Let's try again, Mr. Konaj. First of all, your house, put a dot
24 there and number 1.
25 A. I can't find my bearings because I need to know where the main
Page 3771
1 road Peje-Decan is. I don't want to repeat the same mistake, so please
2 let me or someone may help me indicate where the road is.
3 Q. Mr. Konaj, do you see Pec here at the top of the picture and the
4 road that goes out of it? All right. We'll come back to it later.
5 Let's first go to Lodja.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I ask for D002-6057.
7 Q. Mr. Konaj, you can probably understand the ground perspective
8 much better.
9 A. I see here the village of Loxhe
10 Q. Can you tell us -- we see Lodja village and several settlements
11 around it. Are there different hamlets within Lodja village; and if
12 there are, please tell us where they are.
13 A. I don't know their hamlets. I don't know that. It has greatly
14 changed now because there are many new constructions.
15 Q. And do you know where Brezanik is?
16 A. Berzhanik should be --
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... here?
18 A. -- on this side here, a little bit higher. The shoe factory
19 further on, yes, it must be higher than here.
20 Q. All right. So we can't see Brezanik here. Tell me then, did you
21 know where the Vujosevic house was in Lodja?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you know that family from Brezanik?
24 A. The last name is familiar, but this particular person you are
25 asking me, I don't know. What was he doing? What kind of work did he
Page 3772
1 do?
2 Q. Thank you. I didn't tell you the name of the person. I only
3 asking you about the Vujosevic family. The name is Srdjan Vujosevic, if
4 you know him.
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. All right. Thank you. So this is the broader view of Lodja.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back now to document
8 D002-6056.
9 Q. That is the same thing seen from a greater distance and you
10 should see your house?
11 A. [Previous translation continues]... house here, neither in the
12 first map.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Konaj, you see how much broader this is. You can see
14 everything from Lodja to Pec, and you see the main road that we had seen
15 previously.
16 A. This is what I can't find, the main road.
17 Q. Let me ask you this: Look to the left of this map. In the left
18 corner, what is this feature? It's huge.
19 A. It is Italian village.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know -- do you see this road going uphill
21 towards Pec from the Italian village?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Right. Parallel to it do you see this one going by Lodja, is it
24 going to Decani?
25 A. No, this is -- the one near Loxhe doesn't go in the direction of
Page 3773
1 Decan. It goes in the middle -- between the Italian village and Loxhe
2 there is the main road that goes in the direction of Peje, but I can't
3 see the road here, unless this -- there is this one here.
4 Q. Do you see on the right something going from the Italian village,
5 a road going south from Pec by the Italian village south?
6 A. I apologise, but I can't find my bearings here in this map.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Djurdjic, we may have exhausted the
8 possibilities here. The witness many times has said he cannot locate
9 himself on this map.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] All right. Let's move on.
11 Q. Mr. Konaj, in which settlement is your house and your brother's
12 house, the houses that you left in 1998 to move into your father's house
13 in Pec?
14 A. We called it Bellopoje. Bellopoje is a village where the Serbs
15 and the Montenegrins used to live. Now the main road used to be called
16 JNA, that is, the Yugoslav Army. They changed the names twice. Now it's
17 called KLA 149, but at that time we used to call it Bel lopoje. Now they
18 call it Dardanija 1.
19 Q. Since we are talking about 1998 and 1999, let us use these terms,
20 and if different terms were used in the statements, we'll deal with that.
21 So this is Dardanija. Tell me, where was the house of Ana Konaj and who
22 is Ana Konaj?
23 A. Ana Konaj is my mother, the late one. Her house was also my
24 house.
25 Q. Did I understand this correctly, that's the house in Dardanija?
Page 3774
1 A. I don't want to misunderstand you or you me. I said first it was
2 called Bellopoje, Dardania, and many times they have changed the names.
3 Now it's called KLA UCK 149, and it's a main road.
4 Q. Thank you. So regardless of the name change, that's the same
5 house in that location, all the three names are the same thing?
6 A. This is where the houses were looted.
7 Q. Is your brother's house nearby as well?
8 A. Yes, we lived in the same compound, let's say, in the same
9 courtyard.
10 Q. And what's the name of that brother?
11 A. Pren Konaj is his name.
12 Q. Thank you. In 1999, was he in Pec when the war started?
13 A. From 1993 my brothers were not living there. Only myself and my
14 family was living there.
15 Q. Thank you. And where was Pren?
16 A. He was in Switzerland
17 Q. Thank you. Was he a member of any political organisation; and if
18 so, which one?
19 A. They didn't have regular papers to come here. He was not
20 registered or -- in any particular one, but he has contributed. Now he
21 is LDK member.
22 Q. From Bijelo Polje to Lodja, how far is it by road?
23 A. If you go by the main road, it may take 5 or 6 kilometres,
24 whereas as the crow flies, it's not more than 1.5 kilometres. From where
25 I live, I can see the entire Loxhe.
Page 3775
1 Q. Thank you. Was your house on higher ground?
2 A. Yes, it is on a higher ground, and the house is tall. I used --
3 I build them before the war, and from there you can see Loxhe. I had a
4 smaller house on the back.
5 Q. Thank you. And how far is it from this house where you lived to
6 your father's house and your uncle's house?
7 A. Are you talking about the house in the town where my parents
8 live?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Not more than 3 kilometres.
11 Q. One last question before the break. Can you mark that house in
12 Pec on this image, if it is visible, the place where the family house was
13 and the uncle's house.
14 A. I can't see the centre here. I can't locate even the military
15 barracks.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's time
17 for the break.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
19 We must have the first break now. We resume at 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Mr. Konaj, do you remember that on the 12th of June, 2001
25 made -- you gave a statement to an investigator of the Tribunal?
Page 3776
1 A. In general I know that I did give statements, but I know [as
2 interpreted] which one in particular you're referring to. As I said, I
3 gave two or three statements?
4 Q. Thank you. This was a statement provided to Mr. Clifford Smith
5 on the 12th of June, 2001
6 statement of five pages was read back to me in the Albanian language and
7 consists everything that I've said to the best of my knowledge and
8 recollection; is that correct?
9 A. If you're referring to the statement in front of me, it is true
10 that it is my statement -- or maybe I have a different one before me. It
11 is true that I did give a statement, but I don't recall everything
12 because it is in English, the statement.
13 Q. Yes, we also have a translation into Albanian, and you've signed
14 the statement in the English version but there is also a translation into
15 Albanian following this English version.
16 A. I have the Albanian version.
17 JUDGE PARKER: So the transcript is clear, Mr. Djurdjic, you're
18 referring to Exhibit P670? Thank you.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That's
20 correct.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember it. Yes.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. Well, let's take care of the administrative matters
24 at the outset. So your first -- you first made or gave a statement, or
25 rather, previously you also gave a statement on the 19th of April, 1999
Page 3777
1 to Mr. Garry Selsky. Do you remember?
2 A. Yes, I remember Garry Selsky, I gave a statement to him in
3 Albania
4 Q. Thank you. We will return to these two statements, but let's now
5 start with the statement you provided in 2001, and specifically
6 paragraph 3. Can you tell me, please, whether you were in Bijelo Polje
7 in early June in 1998 in your own house?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me when you and your wife left the house
10 in Bijelo Polje and went to the house in Pec?
11 A. I had removed my mother and my daughters earlier and sent them to
12 my father's house in Karagaq, and one night before Lodja was attacked, it
13 was a Saturday, maybe the 5th, I'm not quite sure. Upon my wife
14 insisting on moving from there, we left the house and went to Karagaq
15 neighbourhood.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, if this happened on the 5th when you left, can
17 you tell us when you took your mother and daughters from the house in
18 Bijelo Polje?
19 A. Several days prior to this date. We were the only ones still
20 living there in that neighbourhood.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have on the
23 screens D002-6040, page 2.
24 Q. Mr. Konaj, do you recognise this area that we see in front of us?
25 A. Beneath the photograph I read what it says, the text, and
Page 3778
1 therefore I can tell it's part of Loxhe. However, I do not recognise the
2 location depicted on the photograph.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see photograph
5 number 3. I apologise. If this was photo number 2, then I would like to
6 see number 3. All right, you can leave this image on the screens.
7 Q. Can you recognise this landscape now?
8 A. No, I don't recognise the landscape; but I read the caption, and
9 it says the village of Loxhe
10 Q. Thank you, Witness. I asked you -- I know that you can
11 understand and read Serbian, but I just wanted to see if you could
12 recognise this location that's depicted in the -- in the photograph.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could I now have D002-6064. I may
15 have misspoken. D002-6040. No, that's the exhibit that I've already --
16 the one we've just seen. I apologise. So 6044. Page 5, please.
17 Q. Mr. Konaj, do you recognise this building?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Page 6 on the screens.
21 Q. Can you recognise anything now?
22 A. No.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have page 7.
24 Q. Can you recognise this?
25 A. No.
Page 3779
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And now page 8, please.
2 Q. Do you recognise anything here, Mr. Konaj?
3 A. I see that the same building is depicted on the photograph, but I
4 don't recognise it.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Konaj, have you heard that on the
6 6th of June, 1998, at 5.00 in the morning in Brezanik village, the house
7 of the Vujosevic family was attacked and that this attack lasted two
8 hours until a police patrol arrived? And that on this occasion the KLA
9 took prisoner -- took as prisoner a policeman Perovic and another one and
10 that two police officers were killed. Have you heard of that?
11 A. No, I did not hear of that. I know that it was a Sunday when
12 Loxhe was attacked, and we could hear gun-fire.
13 Q. Thank you. Just to tell you that those first photographs we saw
14 were the -- depicted the trenches that we -- that were found there. And
15 the other one was -- the other photographs were those of the house that
16 was attacked by mortars, hand-held launchers.
17 And now I would like to read something to you:
18 "The fighting in Lodja built strong morale and a myth that there
19 is a super-strong army which was -- which was comprised of soldiers of
20 the 134th Brigade, fighters from Lodja near Morina, and volunteers who
21 arrived from other villages. The enemy abandoned their tanks in the
22 battle-field and began to withdraw from the barracks and the city of Pec,
23 considering that Pec, too, had fallen. Aware that we did not have
24 sufficient forces and arms to defend the city, we decided to fortify
25 mined and strengthen Lodja so that it would become an insurpassable
Page 3780
1 feature for the enemy and they couldn't get through."
2 Have you ever heard this -- of this before, what I've just read
3 out?
4 A. It was impossible for me to hear or read something about that.
5 What I know is that that was a severe attack on the village of Loxhe
6 was even bombed from air in addition to ground attacks. I wasn't there
7 on the spot, but we could hear the gun-fire because Loxhe is nearby where
8 we live.
9 Q. Thank you. On the 11th of July, 1998, the Serbian army, police,
10 and paramilitary forces attacked Strellc. They immediately mobilised
11 some personnel --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not catch the names.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] -- who was in charge of that
14 territory, and I followed the entire operation by way of a 16-channel
15 Motorola which I personally captured during the fighting in Lodja. The
16 enemy abandoned two --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, what is it you are reading from?
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] This is -- I was going to say
19 where I was reading from. This is from a book by Mr. Arber Ahmetaj and
20 Sefedjin Krasniqi: "Thus Spoke Tahir Zemaj, Part II."
21 JUDGE PARKER: I do not see the purpose of what you are doing at
22 the moment. If the witness is familiar with the book, he may be able to
23 verify its contents; if he isn't familiar with the book, he may be able
24 to say, I know something about that. But at the moment so far in his
25 evidence he shows no sign of any familiarity at all with the subject
Page 3781
1 matter. So why are you continuing to quote passages from this book to
2 the witness?
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This was
4 the last paragraph that I was going to quote, the reason being that in
5 the last sentence of this paragraph there is something, a reference to
6 the witness statement, this witness's statement, regarding the situation
7 in the field in Lodja. The portion that says:
8 "After the fighting when a relative peace set in, some heros
9 appeared who were boasting about how many Serbs they had killed or how
10 many houses they had searched and looted."
11 Q. And to clarify, sir, I've already mentioned this book - and this
12 was on pages 92 and 95 of this book - and it refers to your --
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, if you are saying that there is
14 something in that book which is based upon the statement of this witness,
15 you should put that particular issue to him and see whether he agrees he
16 made the words or is aware that his statement was used in the book.
17 Otherwise, the book is of no use at all in these proceedings. And it's
18 the bit that relates to him which should be the subject of your
19 questioning.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Konaj, have you heard of or read this second part of the
22 book, "The Conversation With Mr. Zemaj," that I've just read out here?
23 A. I did not read this book. I know that the book was published.
24 It was put to me in my previous testimony that I published the book. I
25 didn't do that. I only know that it was published, but I never read the
Page 3782
1 book itself.
2 Your Honour, I have a request.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, I've been called
5 to testify here about the statement that I gave in Albania regarding the
6 situation of the population in Peje at the time. The questions of
7 Mr. Djurdjic I would like to be focused on the statements that I gave
8 earlier.
9 Secondly, he put to me that what they say in our parts, Those who
10 are not fit for army are not fit for marriage, and that really hurt me.
11 The question I put now is: How come I have four children with my own
12 wife? I was married in 1973 not in 1971, as it is recorded here. This
13 is the clarification I wanted to make. Thank you.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sure, Mr. Konaj, that the reference to your
15 marriage is one that was not intended as you have understood it. In any
16 event, frankly it seems to have nothing to do with the issues in this
17 case.
18 Insofar as you may be questioned about some matters that are
19 outside the scope of your statement, it is for this Chamber to determine
20 whether Mr. Djurdjic is going into irrelevant areas; and where that
21 occurs, we will stop the questions.
22 Now, Mr. Djurdjic, we were at the point where the witness has
23 indicated with respect to the book that although he knew of it, he hadn't
24 published it and he's never read it. Now, I think that puts an end to
25 the questioning about the book. Now, do you have some other matter now
Page 3783
1 you wish to ask about?
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have
3 finished with that topic anyway, and I was about to move to a new one.
4 Q. Mr. Konaj, I am really sorry. I had no intention of offending
5 you. When I quoted our popular saying, I was only inquiring how it was
6 possible that you were never called up into the army. I never meant to
7 hurt you. And if you feel hurt, I sincerely apologise. And you must
8 know it was never intended that way. But this last thing I put to you
9 has to do a part of your statement, paragraph 3 in fact. That's the
10 passage from your 1998 statement, and I had come to a point --
11 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean 1998?
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] 1999, in fact, when he gave his
13 first statement in Tirana, relating to events from 1998, that is, after
14 what happened in Lodja.
15 Q. And that is, Mr. Konaj, the part where you left to your father's,
16 that is, uncle's house, and heard that the police had been to look for
17 you. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct. I was with a friend of mine who was the
19 principal of the school in Peje, Shaqir Studenica is his name. And we
20 parted. He went to his home, I went to my home; but on the way I stopped
21 at a coffee shop and then Shaqir came and told me that my daughter had
22 called him, asking him to tell me to go home immediately because
23 something had happened. We set off for home on two bikes to my father's
24 home. In the vicinity of the mosque I asked him, What has happened?
25 Tell me, please. Have they killed someone? He said, They have killed
Page 3784
1 someone but have left the corpse in your house, in Bellopoje. The police
2 came to my house. That is true.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues]... and you went to the police
4 in Pec with your uncle, if I'm not mistaken?
5 A. That's correct. They had left instructions that if I didn't
6 report, they would come back at any time to make sure that I went back.
7 It was 4.00 in the afternoon when I went back. About 5.00 we went to the
8 police. It was on the second floor of the building that we went to if I
9 remember right.
10 Q. Mr. Konaj, were you advised on that occasion -- occasion that in
11 the courtyard of Ana Konaj in Brezanik on the 6th of July, 1998, a body
12 was found, a female body?
13 A. That's why the police came to my father's house and looked for
14 the owner where I used to live in the new house in Bellopoje. That's why
15 they went to search for us there, and that's why I went to the police.
16 Initially they took my uncle and asked him to identify the corpse; but
17 when we went, it was in the afternoon.
18 Q. Thank you. So the police were interested only because a woman
19 who happened to be in your house in Brezanik was killed?
20 A. When they entered my uncle's house, he was there with his two
21 daughters watching television. They addressed him with these words, as
22 he told me. They didn't know my name and they said to him, In the house
23 of your brother's son, someone -- a policeman was killed. Then they
24 said, Someone was killed. Then you have to come and identify the corpse.
25 When he went there he saw that there was an old woman whom later I
Page 3785
1 realised it was Marlise [as interpreted] Hoti's mother, and they were my
2 neighbours.
3 Q. And finally was it established that it was a person from
4 Ivangrad?
5 A. I am sorry, but it was established that she was my neighbour, two
6 houses away from mine, Marlise's mother. I don't know if she is from
7 Ivangrad to this day but I know that she is a Bosnian and that to this
8 day her sons live there as my neighbours.
9 Q. Was her name Hoti, Nazmije? That is Nazmije Hoti?
10 A. Yes. We used to call her "Tota Naze."
11 Q. Thank you. Would I be right in saying that you did not see
12 personally how your house was damaged in 1998 and Bijelo Polje, that is,
13 in Brezanik?
14 A. It is as you say. It was after three or four days, I'm not sure,
15 that with my friend Shaqir they had recognised an inspector who used to
16 work in the SUP
17 before. They took us with two cars. He came with his own car, my friend
18 with his own car. We went to the house and we took pictures. My friend
19 Shaqir Studenica said to the inspector, You simply had to use a match to
20 set fire to what had remained. Very little had remained of the house.
21 Q. Thank you. I think the photographs are part of your statement,
22 so we can see exactly what remained of the house.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I now call up
24 Defence Exhibit D002-6058. Can we zoom in.
25 Q. Mr. Konaj, this is an image of Pec. Could you show us your
Page 3786
1 father's and your uncle's house?
2 A. There are many houses here, and it's difficult for me to identify
3 them. It was what we call Domi i Armales, above, Domi i Armales.
4 Dom Armije we call, army's house. From there it's not more than
5 50 metres.
6 Q. Thank you. Pec is a large town, Mr. Konaj. I'm not asking you
7 to show me the house, but the area in which your house was.
8 A. The centre of the town, in the centre, across the centre, used to
9 be this army's house. Above it is Kulla e Sheremetit, and then comes my
10 house, my father's house. I'm telling you, it's difficult for me to
11 identify the centre here.
12 Q. You can't identify even the centre of the hotel where the
13 Metohija Hotel was and the court?
14 A. Frankly speaking, I cannot. I can't see it here. I cannot
15 locate it precisely.
16 Q. You don't recognise a single feature here?
17 A. It seems to me that here is Soliter. I think Soliter must be
18 here. If I'm not mistaken, Soliter is here.
19 Q. Thank you. Will you put a number 1 there and explain what you
20 just said about this skyscraper, Soliter you call it.
21 A. It's a 12-storey building across the SUP building or former
22 SUP
23 12-storey building, we used to call -- even now we call it Soliter.
24 Q. Thank you. Relative to that building, where was your father's
25 and uncle's house?
Page 3787
1 A. Relative to that building, then on the left-hand side, if I'm not
2 mistaken, this part looks like the centre. Then the house must be here,
3 somewhere here, my father's house, that is.
4 Q. Could you put an X in the area of Pec where your father's house
5 could be?
6 A. I'm not very sure, but it must be here.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you put a number 2 there.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] And we'll note that it's the
9 witness's father's house.
10 Q. Relative to your father's house, could you mark Kameni Most, the
11 stone bridge -- or let us take it slowly. What is closer, because there
12 are several features, is the bus station somewhere near?
13 A. I'm telling you that I'm not very sure about what I am marking
14 here. If the Soliter is here, then on the right side is a bus station;
15 then on the left side where I put 2, if this is the centre, is my
16 father's house. Ura e Gurit must be 150 metres from my father's house.
17 Stone bridge on the right side.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Of course you can't mark the exact place,
19 but in order to be able to understand your statement and your movements
20 better, just mark it -- show us these buildings approximately. Could you
21 mark the bus station, for instance, first?
22 A. I'm repeating what I put 1 on the right side, approximately here
23 must be the bus station, if Soliter is where I think it is, but I'm not
24 sure. I'm surprised at myself for not being able to locate these
25 features.
Page 3788
1 Q. Could you find the Catholic church?
2 A. On the right-hand side, near patriarchate, which is not more than
3 250, 300 metres away.
4 Q. Could you then please write -- that is, mark the patriarchy.
5 A. I apologise with -- because I am simply making suppositions here.
6 I'm not 100 per cent sure. I'm repeating it.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I fear, Mr. Djurdjic, we're not getting anywhere.
8 We've had two successful markings, but the witness keeps repeating he's
9 not sure if they are correct. And he is not able to identify any other
10 location you have mentioned, none of which, as far as I can tell, are
11 mentioned in the statement.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all the locations
13 mentioned were referred to in the statement. I have five or six more
14 locations I wanted to ask him about but -- all right. Never mind.
15 Q. I've been to Pec ten times, Mr. Konaj, and I can see the
16 patriarchy, that is, the Orthodox bishopric, but all right, never mind.
17 You don't need to look at the map anymore.
18 Did you own a passenger vehicle in March 1999?
19 A. Not one but two.
20 Q. Where were they?
21 A. I had an Audi 80, black colour. I kept that at my father's
22 house, and they destroyed it there, and they brought it to me on the 28th
23 in the centre of Peje, and I gave them some money for that.
24 Q. And how about the second vehicle?
25 A. It was also the same mark, Audi 80. It was white colour. I went
Page 3789
1 to Ulqin with it in 1998 together with my neighbour with both my Audis.
2 I left the white Audi there, and I used the black one to return home.
3 Q. Thank you. Tell me, what are paramilitary forces? How do you
4 understand that term?
5 A. The usual Yugoslav Army, the regular army, had one solid-colour
6 uniform, green one. By paramilitaries we refer to the people dressed in
7 camouflage uniforms or camouflage trousers and T-shirt above and so on.
8 Members who comprised Peje inhabitants, those that joined such forces,
9 this is what we called paramilitaries.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know what military reserve is?
11 A. I have explained even earlier that I was not -- I didn't do my
12 military service, but I knew that there were military reservists. This
13 is all I know.
14 Q. Do you think there is a difference between reserve military
15 forces and active military forces?
16 A. What can I say? I know that the active military forces should
17 abide by discipline in their service, whereas those that you call
18 reservists mobilise in case of need.
19 Q. Do you know at the beginning of the war or at the run-up to the
20 war, was there a mobilisation call-up?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Can you exclude the possibility that these persons whom you call
23 paramilitary units were in fact a military reserve unit?
24 A. I do not exclude that possibility, but I have seen also my
25 neighbours, Peje inhabitants, who were dressed in those camouflage
Page 3790
1 uniforms. And I saw them armed, wandering around the streets of Peje and
2 in the Catholic cemeteries and in the Muslim one.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. In paragraph 10 of your 2001 statement,
4 you state the following:
5 "When we arrived at the petrol station, there were two Pinzgauers
6 there, one military and one police Pinzgauer."
7 That part of the statement is missing from when you first gave a
8 statement in 1999.
9 A. I don't know whether that is missing or not. I don't know
10 whether that question was asked of me or whether the interpreter has
11 interpreted my answer. I don't know that. But the fact is that once we
12 passed the stone bridge there are some steps and there was a gas station
13 which is still today some 25 metres away from there. And it is true that
14 there were two Pinzgauers there, one police, one military.
15 Q. Thank you, I believe those petrol stations are still there. I'm
16 just saying that this reference is missing from the 1999 statement, but
17 let's move on. In paragraph 18 from your 2001 statement, I'd like you to
18 explain one thing. You said:
19 "I asked Salih Dreshaj to give a ride to my mother and my
20 mother-in-law."
21 Did he do that?
22 A. I didn't say at Salih Dreshaj's place. On the 27th to the 28th
23 we went to Salih Dreshaj's house, who is my best man. The following day,
24 I told Salih Dreshaj's son, Riza, to take my mother and my mother-in-law
25 with him in the car. He didn't want to, but I kind of forced him to take
Page 3791
1 the two old women with him because they were not feeling well. So Riza
2 left with his wife and his children and my mother and my mother-in-law in
3 his car, whereas we, the others, walked. This is when we left that
4 place. I didn't say that my -- that Salih took me to the place where my
5 mother was. My mother was with me all the time.
6 Q. Thank you. You've explained that all, and that's what is stated
7 also in your statement, and now I have had the clarification as well.
8 Now, in paragraph 19 you said:
9 "We left the house and joined the crowd leaving Salih behind."
10 Is that correct?
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, the witness hasn't got the statement
12 in front of him, and the reason for that is that we still have on the
13 screen the Google aerial photograph of Pec. Do you want those two
14 markings preserved as an exhibit or not?
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness
16 wasn't sure of what he was marking, I do not suggest that we enter this
17 into evidence.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It can be removed then, and we'll
19 bring up the statement so that the witness can follow your questions more
20 clearly.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This is
22 Exhibit P670.
23 Your Honour --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
Page 3792
1 Q. Witness, what I would like to ask you about now is on page 6, of
2 the Albanian version, paragraph 20, or rather, page 6, the second
3 paragraph from the bottom. And in the English version this is on page 4,
4 one, two, three, four, the fifth paragraph from the top. So:
5 "We left the house, joined the crowds, leaving Salih there."
6 Is that correct, Mr. Konaj?
7 A. Yes. He left his father there because I forced his son to take
8 my mother and mother-in-law in his car.
9 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to direct you to paragraph 23. In
10 the Albanian version that's on page 7, from the top, the third paragraph,
11 "around 1900 hours," and in the English version this would be on page 4.
12 From the bottom, the second paragraph.
13 Mr. Konaj, you say here:
14 "About 7.00 p.m.
15 One was being towed by another. Two of these tanks pointed their barrels
16 towards the people. It caused great fear. The tanks left both 2000
17 hours and the lights in the city went out. The sky was clear. There was
18 a moon."
19 Now, this entire paragraph is missing from your statement of
20 1999.
21 A. It is true that these two tanks came. One was being towed by
22 another, probably was not working properly. People were displaced, that
23 is also true. It is also true that one of them manning the tank was
24 rotating the barrel of the tank. It is true that it caused great fear.
25 I personally was in fear let alone the children and the women.
Page 3793
1 Q. Mr. Konaj, my question was related to what you have read to us,
2 that this was not mentioned in April 1999, in your statement, which was
3 some 20 days after the event.
4 A. I don't know how that could happen, but I know very well that I
5 gave a statement for nine hours or so in Albania. I am quite sure that I
6 mentioned this on that occasion, and that's why the representative of
7 this honoured Court insisted on the details of the places, where I
8 stayed, what happened and so on. So I'm quite surprised how this passage
9 did not enter that statement of 1999.
10 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to refer you to paragraph 25 of your
11 2001 statement, that's the portion relating to Miki Stojanovic. Again
12 Miki is mentioned. When in 1999 you gave your statement, you said the
13 following about Mr. Stojanovic:
14 "I recognised a Serb in civilian clothes. His name was
15 Miki Stojanovic and nicknamed Lapoc. He was a cafe owner in the
16 neighbourhood called Piskote just outside Gjakove. He was a man who
17 gave -- he didn't -- he wasn't doing anything, he just stood there."
18 Whereas in paragraph 25 of this statement, the 2001 statement,
19 you say:
20 "I recognised one of the Serbs in civilian clothes. His name was
21 Miki Stojanovic, nicknamed Lapoc. He was the owner of a cafe in the
22 neighbourhood called Piskote just outside Djakovica. He was the man who
23 gave the order to separate the men from the others. I have been told
24 that in my first statement I said that Lapoc did not say anything. This
25 must be an interpretation error because he was definitely the man who
Page 3794
1 gave the order, although it was not carried out."
2 So where does this discrepancy come from related to this person
3 in your two statements?
4 A. Again, I have no idea why this mistake occurred. It is true that
5 I knew Miki Stojanovic from before. I used to work with his brother in
6 Gjakove municipality. It is true that he was there; he was dressed in
7 civilian clothes. Sometimes the interpretation is done very fast and
8 sentences can be slightly changed. It is true that he was dressed in
9 civilian clothes. He approached the driver of the bus where I was with
10 my family and other people, and he said to the driver, All the men should
11 get off the bus and come out.
12 So the driver - I'm calling him a soldier because he was dressed
13 in uniform - said to him, I have my orders, and I'm not allowing you to
14 get anyone off this bus. There was a truck covered with tarpaulin in
15 front of the bus. They were dressed in camouflaged uniforms. Whoever
16 they caught, they beat them with their rifle-butts, and the blood could
17 be seen even on the --
18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... meet again --
19 A. [Previous translation continues]... bus where we were. And the
20 police said to the driver, We will see once you're back here.
21 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 27 of your 2001 statement you state:
22 "When we arrived there about 1.00 to 1.30 a.m.
23 junction that leads to Vermice. The driver told us to get off and said,
24 Go to Albania
25 turned the buses and trucks around and drove away."
Page 3795
1 In your 1999 statement, there is no mention of this.
2 A. Again, this surprises me. It is true what he said to us, There's
3 no place for you here, this is Serbia
4 Albania
5 Q. Thank you. One more thing, in paragraph 29 of your
6 12th June 2001
7 "The men were searched and the women's purses were checked."
8 This is a reference to the time when you were on the border.
9 This too is missing from your 1999 statement.
10 A. Again, it surprises me how come I did not mention that. It is
11 true that we were told at the border to throw all our personal
12 documentation in that box. It is true that they searched the bags of the
13 women. I pretended to have thrown my ID in the box; but, in fact, I
14 didn't throw it, and I still have it.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness
17 statement of 19th April 1999
18 move to have it adopted into evidence.
19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00093, Your Honours.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Konaj, I apologise once again. It was not my intention to
23 offend you. These were all the questions I had for you today.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. My
25 cross-examination is over.
Page 3796
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
2 Ms. Gopalan, re-examination?
3 MS. GOPALAN: Yes, Your Honours.
4 Re-examination by Ms. Gopalan:
5 Q. Mr. Konaj, I have a few questions for you. Defence counsel asked
6 you a number of questions today about your statement from 2001.
7 MS. GOPALAN: I'd like to call up the statement. The exhibit is
8 P670, both the English and the Albanian, please. Could we please go to
9 page 2 of the English and page 2 of the Albanian. For the Albanian could
10 we go to the next page, please, it should be page 3.
11 Q. Mr. Konaj, could you please read out the first sentence of the
12 statement in Albanian, so the line that appears below the heading
13 "witness statement."
14 A. "Interviewer's note: This statement is based on an informal
15 statement taken on 19th April 1999
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj, that's sufficient.
17 MS. GOPALAN: I'd now like to call up the statement of 1999 which
18 was recently tendered into evidence. The exhibit number is D93. And in
19 both the English and the Albanian could we please go to the last pages.
20 For the English could we go to the previous page, please, not the last
21 but page 5.
22 Q. Mr. Konaj, in the Albanian version of your 1999 statement that
23 you have on the screen before you, could you read the last paragraph on
24 that page.
25 A. "The statement in English has not been read back to me. I was
Page 3797
1 asked to speak about different periods of time, and I can recall other
2 events if that is requested of me. I'm ready to testify."
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Now, you were also asked some questions
4 about the units that you saw in Pec.
5 MS. GOPALAN: For the record, this is line 45, 9.
6 Q. And you mentioned that you saw your neighbours, Peje inhabitants,
7 who were dressed in camouflage uniforms and that they were armed. Do you
8 recall that section of your testimony today, Mr. Konaj?
9 A. Yes, I do, because those who were in the neighbourhood where I
10 lived, in Berzhanik or Dardanija or now called UCK Street, they were
11 dressed in camouflage uniforms, they were stationed in the Muslim and
12 Catholic cemeteries. This is true.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Just to clarify, when was it you saw these
14 individuals who were dressed in camouflage uniforms, approximately when?
15 A. In 1998 when I left my house to go to my father's house. From my
16 father's house then I went to Ulqin, and I saw them on the way to Ulqin
17 in Montenegro
18 the border crossing there.
19 Q. Thank you. And you said that they were your neighbours, Peje
20 inhabitants. Do you know their names?
21 A. If you're referring to the events at the stone bridge, I only
22 knew them by sight. Of course when you are living in a city and go out
23 on the streets every day, you can tell people by sight; but I didn't know
24 their names. I never knew them.
25 Q. Perhaps my question wasn't clear, Mr. Konaj. This morning you
Page 3798
1 were asked by Defence counsel whether you knew the deference between
2 persons who were paramilitary units or those who were military reserve
3 units and your answer was:
4 "A. I do not exclude that possibility, but I have seen also my
5 neighbours, Peje inhabitants, who were dressed in those camouflage
6 uniforms, and I saw them armed around the streets of Peje and in the
7 Catholic cemeteries and the Muslim one."
8 Now, these are the people that I am asking you questions about,
9 the armed people who you saw in the Catholic cemetery and close to the
10 Muslim cemetery. When was it that you saw them there?
11 A. In 1998 and later on in 1999 after I returned from Ulqin and
12 before we were expelled.
13 Q. Thank you. And you mentioned that they were armed. Do you know
14 who armed them?
15 A. No, but they did have automatic rifles. I don't know if they had
16 any side weapon, but I could see the automatic rifles hanging on their
17 shoulders. The same ones could be seen in the centre on the 28th when we
18 left with the last bus.
19 Q. Thank you. And these neighbours of yours who you saw in the
20 Catholic cemetery, do you recall any of their names?
21 A. To tell you the truth, we always addressed each other with the
22 word "neighbour," "neighbour." So when the police came to look for me at
23 my uncle's house, they didn't even know my name. They knew only the
24 names of my sons, the children played with each other. Slavko was one of
25 my neighbours, then Mile Vasic was also a neighbour of mine. He was a
Page 3799
1 neighbour from Bellopoje. He had a cafe at Stari Most, the stone bridge.
2 And from this cafeteria two people with camouflage uniforms came out.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. Now, just going back to these neighbours
4 who you mentioned, do you know what ethnicity they were?
5 A. Serbs. Maybe they were even Montenegrins, but I never asked them
6 if they were Serbs or Montenegrins. Serb ethnicity.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konaj. I have no further questions for you.
8 A. [In English] Thank you.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Konaj, I want to take you back to your
11 description of the attack on the village of Lodja
12 a severe attack on the village of Lodja
13 in addition to the ground attack. Who bombed it from the air?
14 A. The members of the Yugoslav Army -- I mean the aircraft. I'm not
15 being specific here, whether it was a regular Yugoslav Army, but the
16 aircraft was of Yugoslav Army.
17 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Konaj, that concludes the questions for you.
19 The Chamber would like to thank you for coming yet again to The Hague
20 for the assistance that you've been able to give us. We now have your
21 evidence today together with your statements and the transcripts of the
22 evidence you've given in previous trials. We thank you for that which
23 will be of assistance to us in due course. The court officer will show
24 you out, and you are, of course, free to return to your normal
25 activities.
Page 3800
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. May God
2 help you in your work.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE PARKER: Clearly this is a convenient time for the second
5 break which we must take now. We will resume at 1.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. D'Ascoli.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours. We're ready with the next
10 witness, and it's Mr. Edison Zatriqi. And his evidence relates to
11 paragraphs 72(e) and 77 of the indictment.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you please read aloud the
15 affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: EDISON ZATRIQI
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. D'Ascoli has some questions for you.
23 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
24 Q. Good morning, Witness. Would you please state your full name for
25 the record, please.
Page 3801
1 A. My name is Edison Zatriqi.
2 Q. And could you please state your date of birth.
3 A. I was born on the 5th of December, 1956.
4 Q. And where were you born, Mr. Zatriqi?
5 A. I was born in Peje.
6 Q. Where are you currently living?
7 A. In the same town, in Peje.
8 Q. Thank you. And which is your current occupation, Mr. Zatriqi?
9 A. Currently I work with the OSCE, their regional office. I work in
10 the transport department as a driver.
11 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you provide a statement to representative of
12 the Office of the Prosecutor in June 2001 and subsequently an addendum to
13 that statement in January 2002?
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 Q. And have you recently had the opportunity to review this
16 statement?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you satisfied that the information contained in them is true
19 and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
20 A. Absolutely, yes.
21 Q. And, sir, did you also testify before this Tribunal in the
22 Milutinovic et al. case in September 2006?
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. And have you recently had the opportunity to review also this
25 previous testimony in the Milutinovic et al. case?
Page 3802
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And if you were asked the same question today, would you provide
3 substantially the same answers and would you testify in the same way?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I'd like to tender into evidence
7 both the witness statement and the transcript. The witness statement are
8 the 65 ter number 02347.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00672, Your Honours.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: And the witness's testimony in the
12 Milutinovic et al. case is the 65 ter number 05051.
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00673, Your Honours.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you.
16 I will now read a summary of this witness's evidence.
17 The witness describes the events in Peje on the
18 27th and the 28th of March, 1999, which led to the expulsion of
19 Kosovo Albanians from the area. The witness was the director of a coach
20 company called Flamingo Tours which owned three coaches. On the
21 23rd of March, 1999, the witness was ordered to go to the place where his
22 buses were, and there two policemen took away these three buses. When he
23 asked for documentation, one of the policemen pointed his gun at the
24 witness and threatened him.
25 On the 27th of March, 1999, the witness was in his house in the
Page 3803
1 Sahat Kula neighbourhood of Peje, when he witnessed Serb military
2 shelling the carry of Kapeshnica from the hospital yard and the secondary
3 school. The witness moved to the house of a relative in the Jarina
4 neighbourhood in Peje. The following day the witness and his family
5 joined a long convoy of vehicles which was being directed towards
6 Montenegro
7 witness saw one of his buses full of people. The witness returned to
8 Peje in July 1999 and found that his house, business offices, and coaches
9 had been burnt.
10 This is the end of the in-court summary.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI:
13 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, as you know, the Trial Chamber now already has
14 before it your previous statement and testimony. Therefore, I'll just
15 have some -- a few questions for you in relation to the events in Peje in
16 March 1999. Sir, in your statement - and this is paragraph 10 at the end
17 of page 2 in the English version - you say that the Serb military started
18 shelling Peje on the early morning of the 27th of March, 1999.
19 Mr. Zatriqi, I wanted to ask you whether this is something that
20 you saw yourself with your own eyes?
21 A. Yes, it is true that I saw the shelling with my own eyes.
22 Q. And can you please tell us from where you observed all this?
23 A. My house is in such a position that allows me to see the
24 direction from where these shells were fired and where they were directed
25 at. These shells were flying over my -- the roof of my house. I was
Page 3804
1 moving in the house from the third floor to the part behind the house.
2 Therefore, I could clearly see the shelling from where they were firing
3 shells and what they targeted. The shells fell in a neighbourhood which
4 is opposite to our neighbourhood. It is called Kapeshnica.
5 Q. Sir, I'm going to show you a map of the town of Peje.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I please have on the screen the
7 65 ter number 00615, which is the Kosovo atlas, and I would need page 46
8 of this atlas, please. If you can scroll down, please. Thank you.
9 Q. Sir, can you see the map, and do you recognise Peje and this
10 neighbourhood?
11 A. Yes, I can clearly see the map.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can we please go down a little bit more.
13 Q. Sir, I understand from your statement in paragraph 10, page 2,
14 that your house is located in the neighbourhood called Sahat Kula, and I
15 was wondering whether you can see this neighbourhood on the map.
16 A. The neighbourhood on this map is marked with the name Puhovci.
17 Q. Therefore, is Puhovci and Sahat Kula, are they the same
18 neighbourhood?
19 A. Yes, you can say that. When you say Puhovci I know what you're
20 referring to, and if you use Sahat Kula I will know that you referred to
21 this neighbourhood.
22 Q. Okay. Would you be able to locate your house in -- on the map in
23 the neighbourhood of Sahat Kula? We can move the map also down or up if
24 you need.
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: Maybe all the way down, please.
Page 3805
1 Q. Is it better like this?
2 A. Yes, it's better. It is right by the Catholic church.
3 Q. You will be provided with a pen, and if you're able to -- to
4 indicate where your house would be, could you please mark it with a dot
5 and put a number 1 close to it.
6 A. It should be here approximately, by the road.
7 Q. Can you mark more clearly the number 1, please, because I cannot
8 see it.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Okay.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: So for the record the witness has put a blue dot
12 and a number 1 close to it to indicate the place where his house was.
13 Q. Thank you. In that same paragraph of your statement, and there
14 was page 2, paragraph 10, you indicated that on the 27th of March the
15 shelling was coming from the hospital and the school. Sir, would you be
16 able to indicate on this map also where the hospital and the school were?
17 A. Here is the school, the secondary school or high school --
18 Q. If you could -- could you please mark it with the letter S for
19 school and H for hospital.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Could you mark more precisely the letter H because the -- sorry.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Okay. Thank you.
24 And in which direction was the shelling going on that morning
25 from -- I mean from the school and from the hospital? If you could maybe
Page 3806
1 like draw two arrows from the school and the hospital to indicate the
2 direction of the fire and of the shelling.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you. So who was firing from the school and from the
5 hospital towards the neighbourhood of Kapeshnica?
6 A. The Serb army was shelling with its tanks.
7 Q. Did you see that yourself?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Okay. With regard to the neighbourhood of Kapeshnica, by whom
10 was it inhabited?
11 A. The Kapeshnica neighbourhood was inhabited exclusively by
12 Albanians.
13 Q. Okay. If we go back to the map, sir, do you also see the
14 neighbourhood of Jarina on this map?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And would you be able to indicate where your aunt's house in
17 Jarina was?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you indicate it with a dot and place a number 2 close to
20 it, please?
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I would like to tender this exhibit
24 as marked by the witness, please.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
Page 3807
1 MS. D'ASCOLI:
2 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, as we --
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00674, Your Honours.
4 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'm sorry.
5 Q. Mr. Zatriqi, as we were speaking about this shelling by the Serb
6 army, can you tell us for how long did the shelling go on?
7 A. The shelling began early in the morning. As I stated earlier,
8 one of the reasons I left the house was the shelling itself. Therefore,
9 I'm not able to say for how long it continued because I went to another
10 part of the town. However, based on the blasts, on the explosions, I can
11 say that it lasted for at least two or three hours.
12 Q. Can you then clarify the reasons why you left your house on that
13 morning, on the morning of the 27th of March.
14 A. We left the house on the 27th of March because a night earlier, a
15 night between the 26th and the 27th, there was firing at our house. My
16 family and I and my parents were sheltered in the basement of the house.
17 I was moving in the house itself throughout this time, going from one
18 part to another part of the house. And when the shelling started in the
19 morning, we decided to leave. I spoke with my aunt who lives in Jarina.
20 I asked her about the situation in Jarina. She said that the night was
21 quiet compared to the situation in our neighbourhood. Therefore, we all
22 decided to leave the house and to go to Jarina, to this other part of the
23 town.
24 Q. Sir, can I ask you whether you had the chance of seeing who was
25 firing at your house?
Page 3808
1 A. As I've already said, from moving from one part to another part
2 of the house, I could see clearly that early in the morning at around
3 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning, Furgon, police Furgon vehicle stopped near
4 the house, spoke to my neighbours. There were also neighbours of mine
5 who were armed. And an hour later, they started to fire in the direction
6 of the house.
7 Q. And did you see this yourself from your house?
8 A. Yes, I saw it with my own eyes.
9 Q. And who were these neighbours of yours that you mentioned?
10 A. It was not my neighbours who shot, but persons who came out of
11 this minivan, as many as could be accommodated in a minivan, and they
12 were dressed in police uniforms.
13 Q. And you said:
14 "They were together with these policemen also neighbours of mine
15 who were armed."
16 I'm just reading your previous answer from the transcript.
17 A. These were my neighbours who, during the night, stood armed and
18 moved about the neighbourhood, and as I said earlier in -- near my house
19 there were some neighbours who were armed. And when the minivan came, I
20 saw it with my own eyes, and they talked with these neighbours. And then
21 they left, and the policemen started to shoot.
22 Q. I'm sorry, who talked with these neighbours?
23 A. One of the policemen who came out of the minivan.
24 Q. And what was the ethnicity of your neighbours?
25 A. These neighbours who moved about the neighbourhood armed were
Page 3809
1 Serbs.
2 Q. Okay, sir. I'll move to the part of your statement where you
3 describe that you left your aunt's house and Peje on the 28th of March
4 and you joined a convoy of other vehicles. Can you tell this Court why
5 you and your family left your aunt's house in the town of Peje
6 28th of March.
7 A. On Saturday, on the 27th, when we left our house and went to
8 Jarina at my aunt's house, it was relatively calm there. And the night
9 was, as I said, relatively calm, with the exception of the fact that we
10 saw a very powerful reflector lightening the place around there.
11 In the morning when we woke up, at about 8.00, 8.30 I think it
12 was, a police car came and stopped at the entrance to this street because
13 this neighbourhood has two exits and two entrances. From the police van
14 came out the policemen who in a loud voice ordered us that in five
15 minutes we leave the houses, and we -- some families who were there who
16 had cars got on the cars and left the house.
17 Q. And just to clarify, when you say: "... in the morning when we
18 woke up, at about 8.00, 8.30 ..." which morning do you mean, which day,
19 and where were you that morning?
20 A. In the morning of Sunday, that is, on the 28th of March.
21 Q. Where were you on that day?
22 A. Until the morning of the 28th I was at my aunt's house. We went
23 there on the 27th. We slept there, if you like, and in the morning we
24 were obliged to leave.
25 Q. And, sir, at page 3, paragraph 2, of your statement you say that
Page 3810
1 that morning, on the 28th, you joined this convoy directed towards
2 Rozaje. Can you please describe that convoy and who were the people that
3 you saw in that convoy?
4 A. My aunt's neighbourhood is in a parallel street with one of the
5 main streets of Peje, and the second entry and exit points were free.
6 They -- it linked with the main road. At that moment, I saw many cars in
7 a convoy which I joined. I saw also many people who were walking. Maybe
8 they didn't have vehicles, so they walked in the same direction that we
9 walked.
10 Q. And can you specify who these people were?
11 A. These people I may assure you were all Albanians and all evicted
12 from their homes, and they simply walked in the same direction that we
13 drove with our cars.
14 Q. Sir, in the same paragraph and still paragraph 2, page 3, you
15 also mentioned that there were armed police and armed civilians at
16 various road junctions and that these armed police and civilians were
17 directing you towards Montenegro
18 and -- for example, could you go in any other direction?
19 A. When we got to the main road, the only direction open for us was
20 that towards junction. At the junction there were police. There was a
21 policeman, armed policeman of course, who directed us towards Montenegro
22 The same was true at two other junctions. So there was no choice for us.
23 I and the other people like me were obliged to go in that direction,
24 irrespective of whether they were driving or walking. So everyone was
25 heading towards Montenegro
Page 3811
1 Q. And, sir, could you estimate approximately how many people were
2 in the convoy?
3 A. I wouldn't be able to give you figures because I was there, but
4 there were other people behind me, so I didn't know where the end of it
5 was. I know only that it was a very long convoy.
6 Q. And by "a very long convoy," do you mean vehicles and people
7 together or -- if you can specify, please.
8 A. Yes, the convoy consisted of people walking as well as cars --
9 driving cars or other vehicles driving.
10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zatriqi.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I don't have further questions.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.
13 Mr. Djurdjic.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, but I
15 have a request to make. In view of the fact that we have heard many new
16 facts from the witness that he hasn't said before, in order for me to
17 cross-examine him more efficiently and more quickly, I would appreciate
18 it if you would allow me to start with my cross-examination tomorrow and
19 I will be very quick with this witness because I have to inquire about
20 some things that he's mentioned here for the first time, and there are
21 some ten or so new facts that he's put forth.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber would prefer you, Mr. Djurdjic, to use
24 the 15 minutes we have. There may be some new matters raised, but they
25 can be looked at overnight. So that if you would proceed with your
Page 3812
1 cross-examination now.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zatriqi, my name is Veljko Djurdjic, and I'm
5 a member of the Defence team of the accused, Vlastimir Djordjevic; and
6 with me today is Ms. Marie O'Leary, who is a member of the Defence team.
7 I have some questions for you, and if you don't understand something
8 please let me know and I will try to rephrase my question so that you can
9 then answer it.
10 Tell me, Mr. Zatriqi, you were born in Pec in 1956. Do you have
11 any brothers or sisters?
12 A. Yes, I have one brother and one sister.
13 Q. Thank you. In 1999, were your parents, your father and mother,
14 alive?
15 A. Yes, they are still alive.
16 Q. Thank God. Now tell me, did you live separately from your
17 parents, away from your parents, in 1999?
18 A. In 1999 and now also I live together with my parents in the same
19 house but with different floors -- on different floors.
20 Q. Thank you. Were your parents living in the same house with you
21 in March 1999?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. And now tell me, please, if I recall well, you've
24 completed high school; correct?
25 A. Yes, I completed high school but also the Faculty of Economics in
Page 3813
1 Prishtina.
2 Q. Thank you. When did you graduate, what year?
3 A. Rather late I would say, sometime in 1988.
4 Q. Thank you. And when did you get employed?
5 A. For the first time I was employed in Prishtina temporarily. I
6 worked there for a year in the then-statistical institute until 1981.
7 Q. Thank you. And then?
8 A. Then I returned to Peje and started working in the Ljubljana bank
9 in 1985.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you serve in the army?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Could you tell me when and where?
13 A. I served in the army in Skopje
14 Q. Thank you. And what was your military speciality?
15 A. I was working in the communications sector, then they needed a
16 driver, and I was the only one who had a licence; so I was transferred to
17 that -- I became a driver, actually, and I did a driving course in
18 Kurqoll [phoen].
19 Q. Thank you. Were you a member of a political party after 1999 [as
20 interpreted] -- correction in the transcript, please, not 1999 but 1990.
21 A. Yes, I was until 1989, I think, member of the then-communist
22 party of Yugoslavia
23 Q. Thank you. And after 1990, when the multi-party system was
24 introduced ... ?
25 A. No.
Page 3814
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zatriqi, do you recall making a statement --
2 giving a statement on the 20th of June, 2001, to an investigator of the
3 ICTY?
4 A. Yes, I recall it.
5 Q. Thank you. Was that the first statement that you provided to the
6 investigator of the Tribunal?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Is it fair to say that this statement was read back
9 to you in the Albanian language?
10 A. Yes, they did.
11 Q. Thank you. And it is also stated here that you have given your
12 statement to the best of your knowledge and abilities and recollections;
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zatriqi, could you please tell me, did you --
16 were you ever brought to a court of law? Were you ever tried in a -- in
17 criminal proceedings?
18 A. Can you make the question clearer? What period are you referring
19 to?
20 Q. I did mention that but probably it wasn't recorded in the
21 transcript. Up to 1990 [as interpreted], had you ever been tried?
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Correction, please, not up to 1990
23 but in 1990.
24 I apologise. I still see the same year. So I will repeat my
25 question.
Page 3815
1 Q. Up until 1999, had you ever been tried in a court of law?
2 A. Yes, I was tried in a court of law prior to 1999.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us when and on what grounds?
4 A. The trial took place at the end of 1998 and the subject was
5 described as smuggling of medicinal means, medicaments.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, that appears to be the time now. We
8 must adjourn, and we continue tomorrow.
9 I'm afraid, sir, we must adjourn now, and we continue with the
10 evidence tomorrow. The court officer will give you explanations and the
11 Victims and Witnesses Unit. We would be grateful if you could return
12 tomorrow to complete your evidence.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of
15 April, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.
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