Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4448

 1                           Thursday, 14 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  We will go into closed session for

 6     the witness to come in.

 7  [Closed session][Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Before the witness arrives,

10     Your Honour, I would like to point out one problem.  At the very outset

11     of this trial regarding statements admitted under 92 ter, the

12     Trial Chamber decided that those statements on the notification list are

13     statements that go under 92 ter, and on that basis the Defence prepares

14     for its cross-examination.

15             I now find out that the Milutinovic transcript, both redacted and

16     unredacted, has not been exhibited; and we prepared our entire

17     cross-examination based on it, that is not to cover again the issues, the

18     questions, covered in the Milutinovic transcript.  And let me point out

19     immediately the statement 2668 refers to the Milutinovic transcript, both

20     unredacted and redacted, as we find it in the notification.

21             And as to the facts covered by this transcript, if we included

22     them in our cross-examination, it would be much, much longer.  The

23     Defence relied on what we thought had been agreed.  We did not want to

24     introduce issues that were on the 92 ter list.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 4449

 1             Ms. Kravetz.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, it is correct we had originally listed

 3     the transcript, but we decided not to tender it.  I have informed my

 4     colleague that if he seeks to tender the transcript that is not a

 5     problem.  We had prepared a public, redacted, version of the transcript

 6     which is also in e-court, and the 65 ter numbers have been indicated in

 7     the notification.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that may have overcome the issue with this

 9     witness, but I have a recollection that this issue may have gone

10     unnoticed with some previous witnesses because not always, I think, has

11     every statement or every transcript been tendered.  What concerns me is

12     the original decision of the Chamber about admission and about the

13     expectation of the parties with respect to all the transcripts and

14     statements that were dealt with in that original decision.

15             It was certainly the expectation of the Chamber that those

16     statements and transcripts which had identified as properly admissible

17     would in due course be tendered.  The problem may only be with this

18     witness, but I suspect that there are some other witnesses similarly

19     affected.

20             I think we will need to look at that - not right now - and it may

21     be that there will need to be some regularisation, that is, a tendering

22     of things that may have been omitted.  I think it's fair to say that

23     there was an expectation which probably was shared by the Defence but

24     certainly of the Chamber that we would have all of these documents

25     tendered in due course.  And it would be dangerous to leave that matter

Page 4450

 1     not properly considered at the point of receiving exhibits in case it is

 2     the situation that something was omitted which the Defence thought was

 3     going to be tendered, something was omitted from the tendering.

 4             In the present case for this present witness, I'm sure

 5     Mr. Djurdjic will take up your offer of tendering the transcript that was

 6     not tendered by you.  But we will have a look at other witnesses to see

 7     whether there has been a due tendering of the statements.  And perhaps

 8     you might convey to Mr. Stamp our view that in future -- for future

 9     witnesses if there is not to be a tendering of each of the statements and

10     transcripts which we had identified in our primary decision or decisions,

11     that it should be specifically mentioned in court that even though the

12     Prosecution had originally proposed the tendering, it does not now seek

13     to tender.  If that is done, the Chamber can consider and the Defence can

14     consider whether there is a concern about the Prosecution not proceeding

15     as originally proposed where its tender of all statements and

16     transcripts.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, if I may address the matter just very

18     briefly.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  I remember that a couple months ago when this came

21     up I was in court and I had to address it.  The practice so far since

22     this issue was first raised by the Defence has always been that we

23     notified them when we do not seek to tender everything that was listed in

24     the third column of our annexes to the motion.  That has been the

25     practice so far.  In this case it was simply an oversight from our part

Page 4451

 1     not to notify them - and it's actually my oversight; we should have

 2     e-mailed them - but the practice so far had been that.  So we have each

 3     time always informed the Defence.  If we listed more material than we

 4     intend to tender, we always let them know beforehand whenever we send out

 5     the notification; so so far this has always been done, and it has been

 6     done by e-mail.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, no need to deal with the matter

10     further now unless you have been able to consider it, but is it the case

11     that so far you've been satisfied wherever the Prosecution has not

12     formally tendered a statement or a transcript of one of the earlier

13     witnesses?

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think you stated

15     the practice so far the most precisely.  The Defence had raised that

16     issue in the past, and you said everything will be admitted that the

17     Prosecution offers for admission and that's how the Defence will prepare,

18     and that's how we did so far.  Here we have the list again.  If something

19     was not on the list, the Defence never thought we should put it in.  You

20     put it very well today, and I would suggest immediately that these two

21     exhibits, 05203 and 05203.01, the redacted and unredacted transcripts, be

22     tendered.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  They certainly will be received, Mr. Djurdjic, and

24     we understand from what you have said that the Defence has no concern or

25     objection in respect of any earlier witness so far in the trial, that

Page 4452

 1     there has been a failure to tender either a statement or a transcript of

 2     that witness which the Defence had wanted in evidence.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The invaluable [Realtime

 4     transcript read in error "infallible"] Marie O'Leary again brought this

 5     situation to my notice earlier today.  I always relied on the supposition

 6     that whatever is on the list will be tendered, but I cannot really say

 7     anything until my assistant checks whether we have admitted all this

 8     evidence so far or not.  I promise that within a few days, probably

 9     sooner, because Ms. O'Leary is very efficient, we will submit to the

10     Court everything that is on the list and has not yet been admitted.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, then we will leave this issue open, as my

13     earlier comments indicated, to enable you to consider whether there is

14     something that has been unwittingly omitted.  And I'm not sure whether

15     line 24 correctly records what you said, was it infallible or invaluable?

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Both, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Very well.  I will make an order for all of this

18     to be recorded in public session.  We had gone into closed session, but

19     it will be recorded in open session because it is of procedural

20     significance.

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4453

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in public session, Your Honours.

13                           WITNESS:  WITNESS K54 [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic: [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  We left off yesterday on

17     the issue of your departure on the 25th.  Were you in the motorcade, the

18     column of vehicles that started from Prizren to Trnje?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   How many vehicles were there?

21        A.   If I remember well, around five or six.

22        Q.   Thank you.  How many trucks?

23        A.   There was only one small vehicle that we called Pinzgauer.

24        Q.   I suppose there was someone in the cab with you?

25        A.   I think so.

Page 4454

 1        Q.   Do you remember who it was?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And in that motorcade, your truck was which number in the line?

 4        A.   Second in the line, I think.

 5        Q.   And who was driving ahead of you?

 6        A.   I don't remember.

 7        Q.   Did that vehicle lead the column?

 8        A.   It was supposed to.

 9        Q.   You as a driver, before you went out into the field on the 25th,

10     did you have a meeting?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   How did you know where to drive?

13        A.   In that first truck, there must have been one of the NCOs and the

14     NCOs did attend a meeting because it was late at night that these

15     meetings were usually held.

16        Q.   As you went by certain places, there were boards and traffic

17     signs?

18        A.   I don't remember.  Probably.

19        Q.   As far as I know, before the war there were normal traffic signs

20     in the whole Prizren area.

21        A.   I must not have been paying attention.

22        Q.   And from June 1998 you served in Prizren and the Prizren area as

23     a driver.  You must have paid attention to the roads?

24        A.   Yes, but when you are in a motorcade, you don't need to pay

25     attention, you just follow the car ahead of you, and you don't pay

Page 4455

 1     attention to the signs.

 2        Q.   When you got out of the trucks in the place you -- where you

 3     stopped, how many troops were there?

 4        A.   Well, those two or three lorries that were there were full, and I

 5     drove a lorry full of food.  I was not able to count.

 6        Q.   But occasionally you would drive troops as well?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What was the type of that lorry?

 9        A.   Dietz [phoen].

10        Q.   How many troops fit in a Dietz lorry?

11        A.   About 20.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And if there were three lorries full of troops, how

13     many could there have been in -- maximum?

14        A.   They were not really packed if you really want to know.

15        Q.   And how about the Pinzgauer, who was in it?

16        A.   The commander of our battalion.

17        Q.   Witness, I remember in the military police there is a space

18     behind the cab for troops.  Is that the kind you had?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So who was there behind?

21        A.   Two or three soldiers and the commander drove.

22        Q.   And who was in the cab with him?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   At what time did you leave Prizren?

25        A.   After midnight, late.

Page 4456

 1        Q.   And when did you arrive at destination?

 2        A.   Early in the morning.  It was still dark; I remember that.  And

 3     the time it took us to find our positions -- I think it was about an

 4     hour.

 5        Q.   Can you remember when you arrived at destination?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Was it night or day?

 8        A.   Night.

 9        Q.   And now tell me, we finished yesterday with those teams, and you

10     seem to have said there were two teams?

11        A.   There were more, but two teams left first, followed by another

12     two teams, and so on.

13        Q.   Could you explain a bit more, how was this redistribution done?

14        A.   Well, they would discuss it with the commander, I mean the NCOs

15     would discuss it with the commander, and then they would pass it on.  And

16     every NCO chose which soldiers he would pick.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Were you in that food lorry when you came to the

18     destination?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And where was the commander?

21        A.   Well, I can't remember anymore.

22        Q.   We've talked so far and you didn't mention a single commander

23     except that one.

24        A.   Well, you don't stand in one place, you move all the time.

25     Sometimes you take over.  The commander doesn't stand still.  He also has

Page 4457

 1     to move.

 2        Q.   Would you please take care to tell me only what you know from

 3     seeing it with your own eyes.  Don't tell me what happens in theory or

 4     what should happen.

 5        A.   Well, it was late, it was still dark.  I didn't see much of him

 6     anyway.

 7        Q.   I agree that you can't remember the details, but when you talk

 8     about whatever, please tell me only what you saw.  We've now been talking

 9     for now five, perhaps ten minutes.  You didn't see a single commanding

10     officer except that battalion commander?

11        A.   Maybe there was one commanding officer with me.  I think that

12     one -- let me not mention him now.

13        Q.   You told me you drove food supplies.  How many teams did you

14     make?

15        A.   Well, reckon that there was one team per truck.

16        Q.   So to which team were you attached?

17        A.   One of those teams.  I can't remember exactly now.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move into private

19     session, please.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4458











11  Pages 4458-4465 redacted. Private session.















Page 4466

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in a bit, please.

22        Q.   Witness, can you see?  And if we zoom out would that be better?

23        A.   I can see.

24        Q.   Could you put a circle around Mamusa.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 4467

 1        Q.   Right.  Thank you.

 2        A.   I think that would be roughly that area.

 3        Q.   I can see quite well on this map.  Put a number 1, please, to the

 4     left of the circle.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Would you please mark Medvedce village.

 7        A.   I'll put a dot here.  I think it's here.

 8        Q.   No.

 9        A.   This is Trnje village.

10        Q.   I asked you about Medvedce.

11        A.   I don't see well enough here.

12        Q.   Put number 2 next to Trnje.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And below, circle number one.  Do you see the name Medvedce just

15     below the circle?

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   That's it.  Can you put number 3 there.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   And now tell me, 1 is Mamusa, 2 is Trnje, and 3 is Medvedce.

20     Relative to Mamusa, where is Medvedce?  I mean north?  South?  East?

21     West?

22        A.   This seems to be south-west.

23        Q.   What about Trnje?

24        A.   To the east.

25        Q.   In your statement given in April, paragraph 2, page 6; in English

Page 4468

 1     that's page 5, paragraph 4, you say:

 2             "We participated in the encircling of the area near Mamusa.  My

 3     unit had a position in one Albanian village just south of Mamusa."

 4             Now, tell me, which village is south of Mamusa?

 5        A.   Perhaps when I was giving the statement I said roughly speaking

 6     because we located things together with the investigator, we located our

 7     area, and he -- and I -- I'll draw a line her, that's our area.

 8        Q.   And when did you do that with the investigator?

 9        A.   I think on the 28th of July or June when we went there

10     photographing.

11        Q.   I think the village was Medvedce.

12        A.   I think so too.

13        Q.   Is what you said in the first statement true?  I'll quote it

14     exactly.  That's the statement given 25th and 26th of April, 2002.  Is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I now tender this exhibit,

19     please.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned D00115, Your Honours.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Witness, I asked you a question yesterday and on transcript 4389,

24     lines 9 through 19, you told me that the soldier who told you about this

25     who comes from the same area as you was in the border area, at a border

Page 4469

 1     crossing.  That was his position; right?

 2        A.   Right.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up P5203 -- sorry,

 4     D00013 [sic], that is a triple zero, 13.  Page 10.615.

 5        Q.   We're waiting for this exhibit to come up.  I'll repeat my

 6     question.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, before I begin the

 8     question, we admitted this Defence exhibit earlier today, that's

 9     Milutinovic transcript D00013 [sic], I think.  That was the number given

10     to this exhibit.  I'm afraid I was the one who took that down, not

11     Mrs. O'Leary.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That's D00113, Your Honours.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Whatever I do, I do wrong it

14     seems.

15        Q.   You told us yesterday, and I gave a reference, that this soldier

16     who told you that story was at the border crossing.  Here we have the

17     document on the screen.  In the Milutinovic trial in response to a direct

18     question, Did this soldier who told you this tell you that he was at the

19     border crossing as a soldier, you said no.

20        A.   I can't remember this.  Yesterday I said he was.

21        Q.   Let's move on.  I want one thing cleared up regarding Jeskovo.

22     Hamit Thaqi, Hunjen Rexhepi, Bashkim Supa, Hajdar Shalja, Feriz Susuri,

23     Tahir Gashi, Skender Latifi, Umredin Chengaj, Aledin Dzezahiri, soldiers

24     of the special unit of the 125th Brigade Operation Zone Pastrik died a

25     heros' death in Jeskovo.  What I read to you is from "The Road to

Page 4470

 1     Freedom" by Zafir Berisha, commander of that brigade.  You were there.

 2     Did you see any bodies of KLA members in Jeskovo?

 3        A.   Well, I didn't see the KLA.  I'm not sure.  There were people in

 4     civilian clothes.  If they had been wearing uniform, I would have thought

 5     they were KLA.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday during the first part of my examination

 7     when you told us about various statements and how you gave them, you told

 8     me you had lost your passport.

 9        A.   No, not the passport.  Telephone number.

10        Q.   And you never lost your passport?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   I must have gotten this wrong.

13        A.   You must have.

14        Q.   What was that about the telephone number?  Were you going to

15     Sarajevo to give a statement?

16        A.   I went to Sarajevo to the field office of the ICTY to bring my

17     passport to get a visa.

18        Q.   That's what must have confused me.  After the war, were you again

19     in touch with anyone who served in your unit during the war in 1999?

20        A.   You're asking me whether I was in contact with anyone after the

21     war.  I was.

22        Q.   And did you talk?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did that person hide at your place?

25        A.   No.

Page 4471

 1        Q.   I won't name the person.

 2        A.   You can say K41.

 3        Q.   Okay, K41.  I won't say the name of the town.  You were not in

 4     contact with him?

 5        A.   I was.

 6        Q.   Was he present --

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. Kravetz.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  I would request that we go into private session if

10     my learned colleague is going to be asking questions about this protected

11     witness.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps as a precaution we could do that.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4472

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11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  I see my learned colleague on his feet.

Page 4473

1             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I was talking to

 3     Ms. O'Leary.  I'm sorry for interrupting you.  That map that the witness

 4     marked, has it been admitted?  I'm very sorry.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I believe so, Exhibit D115.

 6             Carry on, Ms. Kravetz.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have this map up on the screen, and could

 8     we please zoom where -- the section where -- that has been marked by the

 9     witness.  If we could zoom in a bit more.

10                           Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

11        Q.   Witness, you were asked a series of questions about the action

12     that you participated in the village of Trnje.  You have drawn a line

13     across -- between positions numbers 2 and 3 on the map.  What does that

14     line represent?

15        A.   That line represents where my unit was deployed, where it had its

16     positions.

17        Q.   Now, in your statement, you had initially said that this action

18     was carried out in the village of Medvedce.  In July when you visited the

19     area with an investigator from the Office of the Prosecution, did you

20     correct this, the name of the village?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And having visited the area to the best of your recollection

23     where did this action take place, in which village, the action you

24     describe in your statement?

25        A.   In village Trnje, number 2.

Page 4474

 1        Q.   Now, you were asked a series of questions by my learned colleague

 2     about how you got to the village.  Just very roughly speaking, are you

 3     able to draw on this map and indicate the direction in which you were

 4     advancing, your units were advancing, when you were heading towards the

 5     village of Trnje prior to this action?

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Just for the sake of the record, the witness has

 9     drawn a line with an arrow that goes from the south towards the north and

10     ends at number 2 that has been circled as the village of Trnje.

11        Q.   You were also asked about the village of Novaki.  Do you see that

12     on the map?  I know the map is a bit blurry because it has been zoomed

13     in.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has drawn a rectangular -- rectangle

17     around the village of Novaki.

18        Q.   Witness, you were asked yesterday by my colleague - and this is

19     at page 4414 and 4415 - whether you saw MUP units when you entered the

20     village and you said:

21             "I did not see MUP units on that occasion, but they were there in

22     these days."

23             Were MUP units involved in the action against the village of

24     Trnje?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4475

 1        Q.   You have shown on the map the road your unit took when you were

 2     advancing towards this village.  Did the MUP units that were involved in

 3     this area, did they advance with you along this same road, or were they

 4     progressing or coming from a different direction?

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  For the sake of the record, the witness has drawn a

 7     second line to indicate the direction in which MUP units were advancing.

 8        Q.   Could you maybe mark that with --

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  And has marked it as MUP.

12        Q.   Do you know what type of units, MUP units, were involved in this

13     action?

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  And the witness has marked the first line that

17     shows the road taken by his units with a VJ.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:

20        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, did the MUP units that were involved in this

21     action, did they -- what was their role?  Did they perform similar tasks

22     as the VJ units, or did they have a different task to perform during the

23     conduct of this action against the village of Trnje?

24        A.   They had a different assignment.

25        Q.   Can you explain if you know what was their assignment?  What were

Page 4476

 1     they supposed to do during the course of this action?

 2        A.   I don't know; I'm not really sure.  But they were probably the

 3     first to start implementing that action.

 4        Q.   And when you say they were probably the first to start

 5     implementing the action, what do you mean?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know how to explain.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I really wouldn't want to

 9     interrupt or to influence, and now I don't know how to express myself

10     without doing either --

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Let's --

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Let him continue.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

14             Ms. Kravetz, please continue.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Sir, do you know if these units entered the village of Trnje?

17             JUDGE PARKER:  You mean the MUP units?

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I mean the MUP units.

19        Q.   I was asking about the MUP units.  I'm sorry.

20        A.   Over the course of the following days, I saw MUP members here.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  For the sake of the transcript, the witness has

22     drawn an arrow above number 2 which he has marked as MUP.

23        Q.   Now, this first line that you drew alongside the line that is

24     marked VJ, were these units that were moving along that line, that is,

25     from south to north, towards the village of Trnje, were they advancing at

Page 4477

 1     the same time as your units?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And was there any sort of communication between those units, the

 4     MUP units and your unit, when this action was being carried out?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   What sort of communication?  I mean, how would you know what sort

 7     of progress the MUP units were making along the axis that they were

 8     travelling?

 9        A.   I'm not sure.  I don't know that.

10        Q.   And when you said that there was sort of communication between

11     MUP and VJ units, what were you referring to?  How would you communicate

12     with them?

13        A.   Well, the communication was between our officers and them, by

14     radio.

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, you said that you saw MUP units in --

16     along a second axis which you've drawn above number 2.  When did you see

17     those MUP units there?

18        A.   I saw that through binoculars.  I wasn't right there on the spot.

19        Q.   And where were you when you saw those units?

20        A.   In village Trnje.

21        Q.   Now, you were asked by my learned colleague - and this is again

22     the same page I had referred to earlier - to clarify whether these units

23     were present when you entered the village and you say -- you said:

24             "No, they were not there on the first day."

25             Did you see them on any of the following days in the village?

Page 4478

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And what were these units doing in the village when you saw them?

 3        A.   They did the same thing we did.  They were waiting, and they must

 4     have been involved in an operation before that or -- I really am not sure

 5     what to say.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this exhibit into

 8     evidence which has been marked by the witness.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00785, Your Honours.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:

12        Q.   And just a final clarification before we move away from -- on

13     from this topic.  When I asked you what you saw them doing you said:

14             "They did the same thing we did."

15             What did you mean exactly?

16        A.   Waiting to withdraw from that area.  I don't know because the

17     operation was over, and they were there.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  I see my learned colleague on his feet.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] All I can say now that he has

22     already -- he has confirmed an answer to the question that he had already

23     given.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. Kravetz.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'll move on from there.

Page 4479

 1             If we can have -- I see the map has disappeared at least from --

 2     the map's still there.  Yeah.

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  The map that was just tendered, I just wanted to

 5     ask a final question.

 6        Q.   Sir, on the map you were asked to mark the village of Mamusa.  Do

 7     you know what was the ethnicity of the inhabitants of the village of

 8     Mamusa?

 9        A.   The Turks.

10        Q.   And did your VJ unit conduct any actions against that village

11     during the course of this operation that you've drawn there, did you go

12     into the village?

13        A.   I did later, but the army did not take part in carrying out any

14     action, neither did the police.

15        Q.   Now, you were asked several questions by my learned colleague

16     about looting and specifically about how you were able to tell which

17     villages were Albanian and which were non-Albanian.  And you were asked

18     whether in this area there was a single name of an Albanian village and

19     you said that between the road from Prizren to Djakovica on the left side

20     there was not a single Serbian village and on the road to Prizren there

21     were several Serbian villages, Bosniak villages, and some Albanian

22     villages.

23             Now, with respect to looting of houses, do you recall whether

24     your unit or other VJ units conducted any looting of houses in

25     non-Albanian villages during the time you were deployed in this area of

Page 4480

 1     Prizren?

 2        A.   There was no looting in the predominantly Serbian villages;

 3     however, I think that some Bosnian houses were plundered and the looting

 4     was conducted in Albanian houses for sure.

 5        Q.   And the reference I was --

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Oh, I see my learned colleague.  Just to give the

 7     transcript reference I was referring to at page 4421 of yesterday's

 8     transcript.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I was waiting for the witness to

11     finish his answer.  Several questions were asked in terms of the

12     ethnicity of the owners of looted houses.  My question was:  How were

13     they able to distinguish the ethnicity of the owners of the houses.  How

14     did they know the houses belonged to Albanians and not to someone else.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  That was one of the questions, but the question I

17     mentioned was also asked yesterday.

18             Your Honours, I don't know if this is a convenient time for the

19     break because I have a couple more questions.  I think I will --

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Perhaps you would like to think about that over

21     the break then, Ms. Kravetz.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  Okay.  Yes.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  We will adjourn now and resume at five minutes to

24     11.00.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4481

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  We will go into closed session so that the witness

 3     can leave.

 4                           [Closed session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4482











11  Pages 4482-4483 redacted. Closed session.















Page 4484

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

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12   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 4485

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:

 3        Q.   I'll just wait for a second while the blinds come up.

 4             Sir, yesterday you were asked a series of questions about the

 5     action you participated in Jeskovo or Jeskovo and you were -- my learned

 6     colleague from the Defence read out some passages from two reports of --

 7     by the OSCE and my learned colleague - and this is at page 4437 - asked

 8     you after reading the passage:

 9             "You see that the monitors knew that the KLA was present in

10     Jeskovo?"

11             And you said:

12             "I understand this but why did they prevent them from coming any

13     closer to the road."

14             My learned colleague asked:  So you knew they were all the time?

15             "Yes they were seen."

16             What were you referring to when you said:  Why did they prevent

17     them from coming to the road?

18        A.   The OSCE was prevented to come closer to that place.

19        Q.   Prevented by whom?

20        A.   The Yugoslav Army.

21        Q.   You said yesterday that - and this was at page 4438 - that -- my

22     learned colleague read a passage of a report and said:

23             "On the second day they went out to make an inspection if that's

24     what you would call it."

25             And you said:

Page 4486

 1             "And what about the first day.  Where were they?"

 2             And my learned colleague said:

 3             "But they were at the entrance as you could hear."

 4             And you said:

 5             "The operation was completed before the night."

 6             Do you know whether the OSCE representatives were allowed into

 7     the village once the action was completed?

 8        A.   They were not allowed to enter the village.

 9        Q.   Yesterday you told us that you and your unit entered the village

10     and you mentioned seeing bodies there and my learned colleague asked you

11     some questions about that.  Were any of the bodies that you saw in

12     Jeskovo after this operation was completed, were any of them in KLA

13     uniform?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   While you were in the village, did you see any signs of KLA

16     presence in the village?

17        A.   Well, I noticed bunkers and sandbags, probably they were there.

18     That's the only thing that I noticed though.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

21     witness.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE PARKER:  You'll be pleased to know that completes the

24     questioning for you.  The Chamber would like to thank you for coming

25     again to The Hague and for the assistance you've been able to give, and

Page 4487

 1     you may now return to your normal activities.  We will go into closed

 2     session again to enable you to leave.

 3             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 4                           [Closed session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Nilsen.

14             MS. NILSEN:  Yes, Your Honours.  The next upcoming witness is

15     Mr. Qamil Shabani.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17             MS. NILSEN:  He will testify pursuant to 92 bis.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

20             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Please read aloud the affirmation that is shown to

22     you now.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will say

24     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  QAMIL SHABANI

Page 4488

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 3             Ms. Nilsen has some questions for you.

 4                           Examination by Ms. Nilsen:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Witness.  Could you please state your full name for

 6     the record.

 7        A.   My name is Qamil Shabani.

 8        Q.   And where and when were you born?

 9        A.   I was born on the -- on the 14th of the 11th, 1952, in Zhegra.

10        Q.   Zegra, is that a village in Gjilan municipality?

11        A.   Yes, it's a village in Gjilan municipality.

12        Q.   And are you still living in this village?

13        A.   Yes, I continue to live there.  That's where I was living, and

14     I'm still living in the same village.

15        Q.   What is your profession, Mr. Shabani?

16        A.   I was a teacher, but it's some time that I'm not exercising this

17     profession.  I am privately employed, self-employed on family matters.

18        Q.   And are you educated as a teacher?

19        A.   I was qualified and graduated in the Faculty of Technology, and I

20     worked as a teacher from 1974 until the 21st -- in fact, up until 2001 in

21     an elementary school and then in the gymnasium of Gjilan.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Shabani, did you provide a statement to the

23     Office of Prosecution in June 2001?

24        A.   Yes, I made a statement in June 2001.

25        Q.   And did you in August 2006 provide additional information and

Page 4489

 1     give an amended version of your statement to the Office of Prosecution?

 2        A.   Yes.  I made additional information available so that it's -- so

 3     that we have clearer information about the events in my village.

 4        Q.   Right.  Did you have a chance to read through those statements

 5     before coming to court today?

 6        A.   Yes, I had the opportunity to read them.

 7        Q.   And are you satisfied that the information contained in these

 8     statements from 2001 and 2006 is true and accurate and -- to the best of

 9     your knowledge and belief?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct, as far as I'm aware and as far as I believe,

11     that's correct.

12             MS. NILSEN:  Your Honours, I seek to tender those two statements

13     into evidence, two --

14             JUDGE PARKER:  They will be received.

15             MS. NILSEN:  Thank you.  65 ter number for the 2001 statement is

16     02263.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00786, Your Honours.

18             MS. NILSEN:  And 2006 statement has 65 ter number 02280.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned P00787.

20             MS. NILSEN:

21        Q.   Did you also testify, Mr. Shabani, on the 31st of August and the

22     1st of September, 2006, in the Milutinovic et al. case for this Tribunal?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   All right.  Have you been given also a chance to review this

25     transcript together with a language assistant before you came to court

Page 4490

 1     today?

 2        A.   Yes, I had the opportunity to look at that.

 3        Q.   If I asked you the same questions as you were asked in 2006,

 4     would you then provide me with the same answer?

 5        A.   Yes, I will try and provide the same answers that I gave then.

 6             MS. NILSEN:  I seek to tender the transcript into evidence with

 7     65 ter number 05071, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00788, Your Honours.

10             MS. NILSEN:  There are also two associated exhibits for this

11     92 bis witness.  The first is an exhibit containing different examples of

12     vehicles, and the second is an exhibit containing different examples of

13     uniforms used by the Serb forces.  They have already been tendered and

14     received, and they have been given number P00318 and Exhibit P00325 this

15     is only for the record.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

17             MS. NILSEN:  I would now like to read out the court summary for

18     this witness, and after that I will have a few questions.

19             The witness has described that two or three weeks before the

20     air-strikes started Serb army and paramilitary managed to create a

21     check-point on the edge of the village of Zegra with 15 to 20 soldiers.

22     The witness describes their uniforms and their weapons.  Initially Serb

23     forces occupied a local house and transformed it into a base for 70 to 80

24     soldiers.  When the air-strikes started, five additional Albanian houses

25     in the village were occupied and the owners were forced out.

Page 4491

 1             On the 28th of March, 1999, Serb forces searched for prominent

 2     people in the village and shot the LDK, that is, Democratic League

 3     of Kosovo, president's brother, and injured his sister.  The next

 4     morning, on the 29th of March, 1999, the Serb forces started to expel

 5     people from their houses, ordering them to leave the village, and

 6     threaten them with their weapons.  The witness left the village that day

 7     together with his family and 1300 other people and went approximately

 8     10 kilometres outside the village towards Donja Stubla, which is Vitina

 9     municipality, and they spent the night outside there.

10             The following morning they returned back to the village Zegra,

11     but because the armed vehicles drove through the village firing with

12     machine-guns, they escaped once again and this time they went to the

13     village Donja Stubla.  Approximately one week after, Serb forces started

14     to attack the surrounding villages of Donja Stubla, resulting in wounding

15     of women and children and six people were killed.  This also resulted in

16     the presence of up to 20.000 displaced people in this little village of

17     Donja Stubla.

18             The witness and his family stayed in Donja Stubla for

19     approximately five weeks.  On the 2nd of May they left with a group of

20     600 people for Macedonia.  The following morning they continued to an

21     area in Gjilan municipality called Rustaj where they were surrounded by

22     forces and detained for two hours.  The men were separated from the women

23     and the group was threatened with weapons.

24             They were then escorted by 30 to 40 paramilitaries to a hill near

25     the Macedonian border from where the witness was interrogated.  Finally

Page 4492

 1     the witness was allowed to continue to the border into Macedonia.

 2             This is the end of the court summary.

 3             If we could please have up 65 ter number 00036 on the screen,

 4     please.  And if the usher could assist the witness with a pen because I

 5     would like him to mark something on it.

 6             If we could zoom it in a little bit more, the area to the right

 7     side, lower right side of the map.  Yes.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Mr. Shabani, are you able to locate on this map your village

 9     where you were from, Zegra?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Good.  Could you please mark it with a circle and put a 1 next to

12     it.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you.  We know from your statements and your previous

15     testimony that you escaped to a village not far away and stayed there for

16     five weeks.  Could you please put a circle around this place, this

17     village, and then mark a number 2 next to it.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   And this place would be -- the name of this village?

20        A.   Lower Stublla.

21        Q.   Or Donja Stubla in Serbian?

22        A.   Or Donja Stubla.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember the date that you arrived

24     Donja Stubla and the day you left this village?

25        A.   Yes.  On the 30th of March we arrived in Upper Stublla.  On the

Page 4493

 1     2nd of May, we started leaving Lower Stublla, which means we stayed there

 2     around five weeks.

 3        Q.   Exactly.  And from Donja Stubla we know from your previous

 4     statements and testimony that you fled to the Macedonian border.  Can you

 5     just explain to us why you decided to leave Donja Stubla after five

 6     weeks?

 7        A.   Yes.  We were not -- we did not feel safe in Lower Stublla.  We

 8     didn't feel safe because in the surrounding areas there were Serb forces,

 9     and we feared that they would come to us and provoke a massacre.  And our

10     food supplies were running out so there was uncertainty, and due to this

11     uncertainty we decided to leave towards Macedonia.

12        Q.   Thank you.  On your way to the Macedonian border, you reached a

13     place called Rustaj; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Good.  And do you remember when you reached this place?

16        A.   We arrived there.  We stayed a night in the hills of Seferaj

17     village, and the following day we went to Rustaj.  That's where we came

18     across military and paramilitary Serb forces around 2.00 after midday.

19             That's where they received us and all the column of people was

20     taken, the people were searched, and we waited for a couple of hours for

21     the commander of that unit operating in that area until he arrived.  And

22     when he arrived, the operation to search every single individual, male

23     and female, and then they separated the male population from the female.

24             They forced us men to get together at one point and we were

25     encircled by Serb soldiers and paramilitary who were threatening us with

Page 4494

 1     their weapons.  We feared that we'd be liquidated.  There was a heavy

 2     rain at that time, and we could hear the voices from our wives and

 3     mothers and children who were fearing for our lives.  So after some time,

 4     Serb forces then brought us together, both groups, and they were

 5     escorting us.  It was about 70 soldiers and paramilitary, together with

 6     their commander they escorted us to a valley, to a meadow - let's call it

 7     a meadow --

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to stop you there.  Could you just explain

 9     whether anything concrete happened to you in this place that you call

10     Rustaj?

11        A.   Yes, more specifically, when we went to that meadow, the

12     commander of that region together with three or four paramilitaries who

13     were armed, they got closer to me and they said, You, Professor, they

14     spoke in Serbo-Croat, who is the organiser, the leader of this march?

15     And then there was a conversation for about an hour.  There were threats

16     and insults against me and my ethnic group.  I thought that following

17     this threat they would lead me away and kill me, but that didn't happen.

18     Fortunately that didn't happen because I was -- I kept my cool in the

19     face of the provocations.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to locate this place, Rustaj, on the

21     map; and if you are, could you please put a circle around it and a

22     number 3 next to it.  You can also draw a line between number 2 and 3

23     like you have done with number 1 and 2.

24        A.   That's it.

25        Q.   Thank you.  This is sufficient.  Are you also able to see on the

Page 4495

 1     map where you crossed the border to Macedonia?

 2        A.   Yes.  These are the Lojane mountains.  This is the border with

 3     Serbia.  This is direction towards Rusheva [phoen] --

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

 5        A.   Yes, that's it.  That's the border crossing.

 6        Q.   And this is the place you call Lojane; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, the mountain, the mountains of Lojane, belonging to

 8     Macedonia.

 9        Q.   Thank you so much, Mr. Shabani.

10             MS. NILSEN:  Your Honours, I would seek to tender this exhibit

11     into evidence.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00789, Your Honours.

14             MS. NILSEN:  I have no further questions with this witness at

15     this time.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. Djurdjic.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Shabani.  My name is

21     Veljko Djurdjic.  I'm a member of the Defence team for the accused,

22     Vlastimir Djordjevic, assisted by Ms. Marie O'Leary, also a member of our

23     Defence team.  I hope we will communicate well and allow the interpreters

24     to do their job.  Therefore, when you see the typing finish on the

25     screen, only then start your answer, and I will do the same.

Page 4496

 1             Mr. Shabani, what is your occupation now?

 2        A.   I work in agriculture, work in my land.  I'm also a handy

 3     craftsman.

 4        Q.   Are you perhaps retired?

 5        A.   Not yet.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  What is the structure of the Zegra village in terms

 7     of educational attainment and training?

 8        A.   Educational structure and training structure in Zhegra, I'm not

 9     clear about this question.  I don't know what you want me to tell you.

10        Q.   First of all you started answering and then you said you didn't

11     understand.  What I meant is, What level of education did the greatest

12     part of the village reach?  Primary school or high school?  That was my

13     first question.  And my second question was to be:  What is the

14     occupation of most of the village?

15        A.   There are people with university education, there are people who

16     have got secondary education, and there are people who have only been to

17     the elementary school.  As for the schools that exist in our village,

18     we've got an elementary school and a gymnasium, and it's got its parallel

19     structures in Gjilan.

20        Q.   I didn't mean to ask about schooling institutions.  Do you know

21     perhaps which percentage of the village population only finished primary

22     school?

23        A.   I'm not into statistics, but I could say most of them have been

24     through the elementary school, most of them, most of the village

25     population with percentage terms I could say 60, 70 per cent.

Page 4497

 1        Q.   I'm sorry, perhaps I was not precise enough.  My main question

 2     related to 1999.  All my questions will be mainly about 1999, and if I

 3     want to ask something about a different period, I will indicate so.  This

 4     percentage you gave me, it refers to 1999?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, it's related to that year.

 6        Q.   So you're saying that over 40 per cent of the population has more

 7     than primarily school, for instance, finished secondary school or higher,

 8     university, for instance?

 9        A.   Yes, that's roughly the case.  I do not know exactly what the

10     statistics are because I haven't been involved with those.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And in terms of occupation, what would you say is the

12     occupation of the majority of the villages of Zegrani?

13        A.   At that time, that is, in 1999 and before then, most of them were

14     involved in agriculture or in various crafts or they were employed by

15     schools, some worked in factories in Gjilan and so on.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I'll explain why I asked this.  Most of the witnesses

17     we have seen so far were teachers or people with university degrees and

18     most of the witnesses are people who live outside of big cities, that's

19     why I asked.

20             And now, tell me, in 1999 who were you living with?

21        A.   I lived with my wife in Zhegra.

22        Q.   I read that in the statement.  I meant did you live with your

23     parents, your brothers, in one household?

24        A.   No.  We had separate houses, four brothers, one has passed away.

25     And I've talked about that in my statements during the Milosevic case.

Page 4498

 1     Three of us are still alive, and we live in separate houses.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Does your family house have a yard?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is the yard surrounded by a wall?

 5        A.   Partly, just a small part of it, and another part has got other

 6     objects.

 7        Q.   That part with a wall, where was the wall built and how tall is

 8     it?

 9        A.   There is a barn there which we have built.  That's -- that's a

10     wall -- it's a building, it's a building, which serves a purpose in my

11     family's interest in agriculture.

12        Q.   How high is that building?

13        A.   It's a one-storey building, and it stretches several metres long,

14     and there is part of the building where we store the fodder and part of

15     it it's where the animals live.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Does that structure separate your house from the

17     street or the yard from the street?

18        A.   Yes, this building separates my proper house from the road, so

19     this is on the side of the road.

20        Q.   Is there a gate leading to the yard?

21        A.   Yes, there is.

22        Q.   How high is the gate?

23        A.   The gate is about 2 metres high, and there is another gate where

24     the cards [as interpreted] go in and it's like 3, 4 metres high and long.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters say cars rather than cards.

Page 4499

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   What is the gate made of?

 3        A.   Concrete blocks and wood.  The groundwork, it's made of stones.

 4        Q.   How large is your own plot of land?

 5        A.   I have some 2 and a half hectares, and it's on the plain and on

 6     the hill-sides including.

 7        Q.   Mr. Shabani, in your statement I read that in 1978 you did your

 8     military service in the town of Vranje.  What was your military

 9     specialty?

10        A.   Not in Vranje but in Kranj in Slovenia.

11        Q.   Perhaps the interpreters misunderstood me.  I said Kranj.  My

12     question was:  What was your military specialty?

13        A.   It was pyro-ing [as interpreted] engineering.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now when we're talking about 1999, when was your

15     memory of it the best?

16        A.   I can't understand the way you formulate this question.  I do not

17     see -- I can't make sense, what's the aim of your question?

18        Q.   I mean that you have given quite a few statements and you

19     testified on several occasions in court; and when we're now talking about

20     events from 1999, when was your recollection of these events the best?

21        A.   My memory is quite clear now, and it was quite clear then when --

22     when it -- when we talk about events that I have been through.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I noted down that I wanted to show to you a couple of

24     discrepancies compared to your first statement, it's P786.  Earlier today

25     in line 46 -- line -- on page 46 of the transcript of the LiveNote you

Page 4500

 1     described how you came to the border crossing of Rustaj.  And you said

 2     you were searched, mistreated, and so on.  Could you tell me again what

 3     was the first thing that happened when you came to Rustaj?  Who did what

 4     to you?

 5        A.   Are you talking about Rustaj?

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   We were surrounded by the forces.  We had to wait for a couple of

 8     hours and then there was a detailed search of each individual in the

 9     convoy, men or women, young or old.  After the detailed search, they

10     separated men from the women.  We were encircled, and we were being

11     threatened with automatic rifles, and that to us was a signal that we

12     were going to be killed.  And we feared that we would be executed at any

13     moment then, but that didn't happen.  And when we heard the screams of

14     our wives and women and children, they -- then the groups were brought

15     together.  And from then on we continued.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right if -- in saying that nothing was taken

17     away from you when you were searched?

18        A.   Yes.  I already said in my statement that at that moment nothing

19     was taken from us.  However, as we passed the border, we gave some money

20     to a person.  I have described this also in my testimony in the Milosevic

21     trial.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We'll come to that.  Earlier today you said that you

23     had decided to leave Donja Stubla because you felt unsafe because the

24     Serbian forces were around and you feared that they would come in and

25     slaughter you and you were also short of food.  And on page 4,

Page 4501

 1     paragraph 4; English version page 5, paragraph 4; and Albanian 4 and 5,

 2     you said that 1.300 people including the villagers of Zegra decided to go

 3     to Macedonia because you were left without food, and you decided to go to

 4     Macedonia also and that you were afraid.

 5             Am I right in saying that once you decided to leave there were no

 6     forces in your village, neither the police nor the military?

 7        A.   It's true that there were no army or police in Stublla; however,

 8     around the area in some other villages around, there were forces of the

 9     army and the police.  At the moment we left there was nobody there;

10     however, we always felt scared.  We thought that they would come one day

11     and slaughter us all in the village of Stublla.

12        Q.   But these forces had been in the same place for the previous five

13     weeks; is that right?

14        A.   Which forces are you talking about?  Five weeks I stayed with my

15     family in the Stublla.  These forces were around us.  During all the time

16     the conflict went on until when NATO intervened, these forces were there.

17        Q.   I didn't understand you.  You said that the conflict went on.

18     What were you referring to?

19        A.   I was talking about the war in Kosova.  During that time, the

20     army was there, the military were there, the paramilitary were there, and

21     they did all kind of things against the civilian population.  I'm talking

22     about that time.  They were in permanent action during that time.  People

23     suffered a lot in their hands.  Everybody saw them.  There were murders,

24     maltreatment, beatings, imprisonment until the last days.

25        Q.   Mr. Shabani, you said that you had spent five weeks in the

Page 4502

 1     village of Donja Stubla.  My question was, During that time, were Serbian

 2     forces in the area around Stubla while you were there?  Were they there

 3     the whole time?

 4        A.   They were in the surroundings of Stublla.  The distance of

 5     5, 6 kilometres away from the village, it's there where these forces were

 6     present.  They were there all the time.  However, they were not in

 7     Stublla.  They did not come there for as long as we were there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you worked as a teacher until 2001, and

 9     you also said that you had graduated from the Faculty of Technology.

10     When did you graduate, in which year?

11        A.   I graduated from the Faculty of Technology in 1977.

12        Q.   And at what university?

13        A.   The University of Kosova -- there was only one university in

14     Kosova at that time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I heard that this was in Pristina?  Did you say that?

16     or maybe I misheard.

17        A.   Yes.  Once it was in Prishtina, then it was transferred to

18     Mitrovica; however, it was the same university, the

19     University of Prishtina.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You started working as a teacher in 1974.  Which

21     subject did you teach?

22        A.   I taught physics, and also I taught subjects in which I was

23     needed to teach the subjects the school asked me to teach depending on

24     its needs.

25        Q.   Who did you receive your salary from?

Page 4503

 1        A.   At that time I received the salary from the state which existed

 2     at that time in Kosova, from the Government of Kosova, from the

 3     Yugoslav Federation which existed at that time.

 4        Q.   Tell me, where did you teach, in which institution?

 5        A.   As I told you earlier, in the elementary school of Zhegra as well

 6     as in the gymnasium of Gjilan.  That gymnasium had some classes in Zhegra

 7     at the time.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And in 1999?

 9        A.   In 1999, at that time I was in charge of collecting financial

10     means for the Government of Kosova.  That money was used to pay for the

11     teachers, for the education which was separated at that time from Serbia.

12     The wages of the teachers at the time were not paid by the state.  This

13     started to happen from 1999 -- 1990, 9-0.  So from that time when the

14     autonomy was abolished, all the money for the educational sector were

15     paid by the people of Kosova themselves.  So at that time I was

16     responsible for collecting the money from the citizens for the

17     Government of Kosova for the institutions of Kosova.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me first, according to which syllabus did you

19     teach in 1999?

20        A.   The syllabus of that time was drawn up by the so-called

21     Republic of Kosova.  At that time we did not have a state, but, as I told

22     you, the education was separated.  This was imposed on us actually.  The

23     Serbs tried to force us to be taught only in Serbian language.  They also

24     sought to eliminate many Albanian-language subjects.  They ordered that

25     the subjects should be taught in Serbian language.  So this led to the

Page 4504

 1     separation of the education.  The autonomy of Kosova was lifted and at

 2     that time the process of the separation of us from the state of Serbia

 3     began to take place.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You told us twice that the autonomy was abolished.

 5     Can you tell us how you understood this abolishing of autonomy, what did

 6     it mean to you personally?

 7        A.   The abolition of autonomy was a deprivation of the elementary

 8     rights of people of Kosova.  This was taken us -- taken away from us

 9     forcefully from Serbia.  They used all kinds of violence to abolish the

10     autonomy.

11        Q.   Are you trying to tell me that the autonomous province of

12     Kosovo and Metohija had a different position and status from the one

13     enjoyed by the autonomous province of Vojvodina?

14        A.   The status at that time was the same; however, the status of

15     Kosova was abolished.  The delegates in the Assembly of Kosova on

16     2nd of July declared Kosova a republic.  These were the delegates elected

17     by the people.  They rejected the violence of Serbia.  This was the

18     declaration of 2nd of July.

19        Q.   Thank you.  What Assembly are you referring to?

20        A.   I'm referring to the Assembly of Kosova.

21        Q.   Who was the president of the Assembly of Kosovo, or are you

22     referring to the parallel Assembly that was set up solely by the Albanian

23     ethnic community?  Is that what you were referring to?  Or are you

24     referring to the socialist, or rather, the Assembly of the socialist

25     autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija?

Page 4505

 1        A.   The Assembly of autonomous province, the Assembly is the

 2     parliament of Kosova.  On 2nd of July they declared Kosova a republic.

 3     The majority of deputies took this decision.  That was also the decision

 4     of the citizens of Kosova.  Since Serbia was imposing violent measures,

 5     they led to that situation.  The violent measures in Kosova continued to

 6     be applied until 12th of June, 1999.  There were also different kinds of

 7     repression.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  When you said "the government" you were referring to

 9     the government of Mr. Bukoshi; is that correct?

10        A.   This government you're talking about was set up in exile.  The

11     Assembly of Kosova was legitimate.  It was that Assembly who declared the

12     Republic of Kosova.  At that time, on 7th of September, the

13     Constitution of Kosova was drafted.  Then due to the repression of the

14     Serbs, all these deputies were forced to go into exile.

15        Q.   Are you referring to the so-called Kacanik constitution?

16        A.   Yes, exactly.  I'm talking about the Kacanik constitution.

17        Q.   When were you collecting the money that you mentioned, the funds

18     that were intended for education?

19        A.   Are you talking about the date?  The year?

20        Q.   I'm asking you about the period in which you did this.

21        A.   I was a member of a commission since this fund was set up, then

22     as a collector of the means, I worked from -- for two years, from 1997

23     until 1999, so from 1997 until 1999.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what the Kosovo Liberation Army is?

25        A.   Yes, I know.

Page 4506

 1        Q.   Can you tell me what was the Kosovo Liberation Army involved in?

 2        A.   From its title itself you can understand that this was an armed

 3     formation who put itself in the service of the liberation of Kosova from

 4     the military and paramilitary Serbian forces.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  When was the first time you heard or learned some

 6     information about the liberation -- Kosovo Liberation Army?

 7        A.   As soon as it came out in public.  I learnt about it from the

 8     media.  I had no idea about its existence before.

 9        Q.   And what did you know about their activities?

10        A.   I do not know anything about their actions.  It was their

11     business.  I was engaged in my own business.  At that time, I was working

12     as a citizen to collect the money for the compensation.  I was collecting

13     the money for the teachers as well as for the health people.  This was

14     the activity I was dedicating myself to.

15        Q.   Don't you think that this period between 1997 and 1999 while you

16     were raising funds actually coincides with the period when, as you put

17     it, the KLA came into public and announced what its activities were.

18        A.   The fund existed even before the KLA existed.  Soon after the

19     autonomy was abolished, the fund came into being.  And it was from that

20     time that the fund has been working on.  The purpose of the fund was

21     purely humanitarian.

22        Q.   Based on what can you claim that the KLA was not present in Zegra

23     before the war or immediately after the beginning of the war?

24        A.   I never heard about any action of KLA in the village of Zhegra or

25     its surroundings.  Even in Gjilan, I never heard about them doing

Page 4507

 1     anything in Gjilan.  Actually, there's been no KLA there.  I've also

 2     mentioned this in my statements.

 3        Q.   That's precisely why I'm asking you this.  How do you perceive

 4     someone to be a member of the KLA?  How can you make this distinction and

 5     say, Yes, this man is a member of KLA; or no, he is not?

 6        A.   It's easy to make that distinction based on the practical actions

 7     of a person.  If a person belongs to an armed formation, he of course

 8     acts to obey to the orders given by that formation.  He has his uniform

 9     and then he also is engaged in fighting.

10        Q.   Mr. Shabani, we have heard a number of witnesses here who told us

11     that they were members of the KLA but were dressed in civilian clothes,

12     and they told us also that they took part in some armed actions and some

13     other activities as well.  However, you believe that only persons in

14     uniforms were members of the KLA and that led you to tell us that there

15     were no KLA presence in your village.

16        A.   I can tell you only this:  There were no KLA people in my

17     village.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Are you aware of the fact that there were people in

19     your village in illegal possession of fire-arms?

20        A.   I did not see anybody carrying such weapons; however, during the

21     war if anybody had such weapons, they just hid them away.  They were not

22     able to use them.  I know of no case of anybody having any fire-arm with

23     him at that moment in Zhegra or in other places.  Could you be more

24     specific about the time-frame you're asking about.

25        Q.   Mr. Shabani, my question was:  Before the war, prior to 1999, you

Page 4508

 1     aware that certain villagers had fire-arms in possession illegally, they

 2     were not bearing those arms, they were just keeping them.  And I also

 3     want to ask you if you know if any lawsuits were instigated against them?

 4        A.   As far as I know, before 1999 the police in Zhegra, in Gjilan, in

 5     Kosova, mounted an action to collect weapons from the civilians, from the

 6     citizens.  Many people were subjected to maltreatment at that time.  Even

 7     people who had no weapons, sometimes they were subjected to maltreatment.

 8             This action continued.  It started from the time when the

 9     autonomy was lifted.  The purpose was to disarm the Albanians of any

10     weapons they had.  It was a police action.  It was a notorious action of

11     Serbian police of Yugoslavia.  These were the forces which operated in

12     Kosova.  There were widespread maltreatments.  Some people also died

13     during the torture.

14             There are two people in Zhegra who died of such torture, one is

15     Mehmet Hajrullah [phoen].  After four days of police maltreatment, he

16     died in his home.  He died due to the torture of the Serbian police on

17     him.  The other is Sali Isufi.  He is also a village fellow.  Due to the

18     torture in the police station, he died one month later.  There have been

19     also cases of beating and maltreatment against the people of Zhegra,

20     people living around Zhegra.  This was done by the Serbian police who was

21     present in Zhegra, in Gjilan; it was also done by the paramilitaries.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honours, it's time

24     for our technical break.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  I take it you're nearly finished, Mr. Djurdjic?

Page 4509

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I haven't finished, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  I know you haven't finished, but you must be

 3     nearly finished.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, that depends on how quickly

 5     we will get the answers as I continue.  I started with general questions,

 6     and after the break I'd like to proceed with more specific ones.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  If you can try and finish in half an hour, we will

 8     be grateful.  Thank you.

 9             We will adjourn now.  We must have a break and resume at 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Shabani, is it true that you said that if the KLA had killed

15     some Albanians who had been involved in cooperation with Serbs, they were

16     traitors if they could have done such a thing?

17        A.   The Albanians who saw the interests of their own nation, maybe

18     they have liquidated some of them, but I did not sympathise with the idea

19     that people be executed for what they do.  I have no knowledge.  I

20     haven't heard that this happened.

21        Q.   I promised to the Trial Chamber to finish before 1.30, so please

22     listen to my questions carefully and give me specific answers.  My

23     question was:  Am I right in saying that you said, you stated, If the KLA

24     had killed some Albanians who were involved in cooperation with Serbs,

25     then these people were traitors of their nation and they, the KLA, were

Page 4510

 1     entitled to do such a thing?  Just let me remind you to make things

 2     easier.  You said that in the Milosevic trial before the Court.  Do you

 3     remember that?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember that.  I said it.  But I don't know of any cases

 5     that the KLA has killed such people.  I've said that in the Milosevic

 6     trial, that I -- my opinion was that those people should have been tried

 7     for what they did to the detriment of our national interests.  This was

 8     my opinion, and I've said this then; but I have not heard of any cases

 9     that the KLA has killed people who may have done that.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. DJURDJIC:  I will now move on to P787, that is this witness's

12     statement from 2006.

13        Q.   Mr. Shabani, am I right in saying that you were not an

14     eye-witness and you have no direct knowledge as to who and how killed

15     Tahiri Shaqiri?  Briefly, were you an eye-witness or not?

16        A.   I wasn't an eye-witness, but it was his family who told me about

17     that when they came to my family, when they left their own home, fled

18     their own home, and came to us.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in your statement of 2006 you

20     explained for the first time that when you say "paramilitary" you mean

21     somebody working with the police who is not a regular policeman?

22        A.   Yes, that what I've said.  He is not a regular police officer but

23     is part of a voluntary formation who takes orders from somebody else.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Regarding paragraph 5, do you agree that it was the

25     first time you stated it's not in the 2001 statement:

Page 4511

 1             "While I was in Zegra I learned from Albanians that members of

 2     the community had compiled a list of prominent Albanians who should be

 3     [Realtime transcript read in error "had been"] killed, the Serb community

 4     had compiled a list of prominent Albanians who should be killed."

 5        A.   I've said this during my second statement where I made additions,

 6     but I've said during the Milosevic trial that the members of the Serb

 7     community in Zhegra had compiled a list of prominent Albanians who should

 8     be killed.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction for the transcript

11     on -- in two different places it's "...a list of prominent Albanians who

12     'should be' killed..." It's currently "...'had been' killed..." in the

13     transcript.

14             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Regarding this man Avni, you made certain corrections in this

16     second statement.  Is it right that you were not an eye-witness and you

17     do not know who killed this person called Avni?

18        A.   I've said in the statement that I heard this from Hysen Hyseni

19     who was a co-traveller of Avni, and he has described how Avni was killed.

20     And what I've said is the opinions of Hysen Hyseni on this.

21             On the killing of Avni, I also heard when I was in Macedonia and

22     Kumanovo, I heard there for a second -- from a second source, and I

23     didn't get any details of how he was killed and who killed him.

24        Q.   Paragraph 9, am I right in saying that this is the first time you

25     mentioned people who were wounded?  It's not in your 2001 statement.  You

Page 4512

 1     mention Bedrije Selmani here?

 2        A.   Yes, Bedrije Selmani and -- I said that a woman and a man were

 3     injured.  That's to say in the initial statement now I've completed my

 4     statement with the names of Bedrije Selmani and the other man had his

 5     family name Isufi.  I can't remember his name.

 6        Q.   Mr. Shabani, we have all your statements.  The Trial Chamber has

 7     them too.  I'm just asking you simple questions.  Yes or no can be the

 8     answer.  You just gave me a long answer in order to end up by saying what

 9     I stated in the beginning that you first mentioned it in 2006, not in

10     2001.  Just tell me whether that's correct or not.  We have to save time.

11        A.   I said that I mentioned that a woman was injured on her left arm

12     and a man in the foot.  And we're talking about Bedrije Selmani and

13     Sahit Isufi.  I knew about it, but I didn't know their names.  This time,

14     with the additions, my statement has become more complete.

15        Q.   Am I right in saying that you were not an eye-witness and you

16     have no direct knowledge who and how injured Sahit Isufi in the leg.

17        A.   I've only seen his grave.  As for the woman, Bedrije, I saw her

18     from the distance when she was hit by a bullet and she was injured.  And

19     it was a light injury, but Isufi was injured more seriously.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 10 you made a correction saying that the

21     Serb forces were not shooting after you, that it started only when you

22     got somewhere away from the village.  In the first statement it says only

23     that the Serb police did not shoot after you.  Is that correct?

24        A.   I didn't quite understand the question.  It wasn't only the

25     police but the military and paramilitary forces.  I've said they shot

Page 4513

 1     from the distance.  When we were closer to the village, we were shot at.

 2     All the crowd was shot at when we were leaving.  But when we went further

 3     away at a distance, there weren't any shootings on the crowd, on the

 4     column.  I'm said this in my statement.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's go on.  Am I right in saying that in

 6     paragraph 11 you stated for the first time what happened to

 7     Skender Selimi?  whereas you were not an eye-witness and you have no

 8     first-hand knowledge about how he was wounded.

 9        A.   I heard this from Skender Selimi himself what happened to him at

10     the time, what he went through.  He told me about what happened to him.

11     But in my initial statement, I was not allowed to talk about people who

12     were on the other side of the village.  But now I had to complete the

13     details of what happened to the whole village, as is this case.  I knew

14     about this then.  I knew about his case then.

15        Q.   Is it correct that in your statement of 2006 you mentioned the

16     name of Milazim Idrizi for the first time and that you had no first-hand

17     knowledge who killed him and how?

18        A.   About this case, about the case of Milazim Idrizi, his two

19     brothers have testified.  When I was in Kumanova, Milazim's brothers were

20     there and I went to pay a visit, went to pay my condolences on his death,

21     and they explained me the details of what happened to him.  So the

22     testimony is on the basis of what Milazim's brothers and Qazim told me.

23        Q.   Mr. Shabani, you don't seem to want to allow me finish when I

24     promised.  I asked you a clear question, and I told you we have both your

25     statements.  You, again, gave me a long answer just in order to confirm

Page 4514

 1     that you did not have direct knowledge and all you know is hearsay.

 2     That's all I asked you, nothing else.  What you have just said is

 3     contained in your second statement.  Please, we have to move on.

 4             Am I right in saying that it was the first time you mentioned

 5     Qazim Idrizi also and that you were not an eye-witness to the event?

 6        A.   I wasn't an eye-witness, but I'm telling you that I heard the

 7     testimony from his brothers.  I couldn't say that I was an eye-witness

 8     when I haven't been, but I'm telling you that I heard it from his

 9     brothers.

10        Q.   Well, then just tell me yes or no.  If it's no, the Court will

11     decide.  I'm asking you about Qamile Haziri.  Is it again the case that

12     you first mentioned him in 2006 and you were not a witness?

13        A.   Qamile Haziri is the wife of Qazim Idrizi.  That's their family

14     names, that's what family names they have.

15        Q.   And all your knowledge is indirect and 2006 is the first time you

16     mentioned it; right?

17        A.   In my statement I haven't mentioned this because I wasn't told --

18     I wasn't allowed to tell about events from that part of the village.

19     That's why I have made the additions now.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And in paragraph 13 in 2006 you again talk about

21     Idrizi for the first time, or rather, the Idrizis.  It's not in your 2001

22     statement.

23        A.   I've only stressed there in the statement of 2001 I said that

24     after we left the village, many murders, many killings, took place in the

25     village.  And these are the details of those killings.

Page 4515

 1        Q.   You stubbornly don't want to answer my question which is simple.

 2     I keep asking you the same thing.  You did not say that in 2001.  You

 3     first mentioned it in 2006, one; and two, you are not an eye-witness and

 4     you keep giving me long-winded answers to each of these questions.  Just

 5     tell me whether I'm right or not.

 6             Now I'm asking you about paragraph 14, the man called Velickovic.

 7     I say you first mentioned it in 2006 and you were not an eye-witness to

 8     the incident you recounted in 2006.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a question, Mr. Djurdjic?

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'm just asking:  Am I right or

11     not --

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Shabani, it's asked of you whether you first

13     mentioned the name of this man Velickovic, is it, in 2006 statement.  Did

14     you name him earlier, Stavre Velickovic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've mentioned Stavre Velickovic

16     before because he was the commander of the Territorial Defence of Zhegra,

17     a regular formation of reserve forces, military reserve forces.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You mentioned him in your 2006 statement; that's what you're

20     saying; right?

21             JUDGE PARKER:  He's mentioned in paragraph 14 of Exhibit P787,

22     the 2006 statement.  I think your question is whether the witness had

23     mentioned this before that statement, either in the 2001 statement or

24     when giving evidence.

25             I wonder, Mr. Shabani, whether you are able to remember whether

Page 4516

 1     you'd mentioned this person, Velickovic, in the 2001 --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned that during the

 3     testimony in the Milosevic case.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 5             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Shabani, my question about all these paragraphs I quoted is

 7     the same.  Am I right you did not mention it in your 2001 statement and

 8     you mentioned certain things for the first time in 2006.  Please focus on

 9     that, and since I have only two minutes left I'll try to summarise.  In

10     paragraphs 16 - I'm talking about the 2006 statement - in paragraph 16

11     you mentioned for the first time the names of these people who met their

12     death, who perished, and you did not know these names in 2001.

13        A.   In which statement?

14        Q.   In 2006, in paragraph 16, you enumerate the first and last names

15     of these people because you remembered them apparently.  Am I right in

16     saying that in 2001 you didn't mention them?

17        A.   Yes, it's a fact that I haven't mentioned the names, but I've --

18     I've talked about the number of people who were killed, that six people

19     were killed in the village of Gjylaku, whereas the names were mentioned

20     in 2006 and the aim of that statement in 2006 was to complete that

21     statement -- my statement with the details, names, and family names, of

22     those people who were killed.  And these are notes which the Tribunal has

23     at its disposal.

24        Q.   In paragraph 17 you corrected your 2001 statement in which it

25     read that life was normal in Stubla; however, now for the first time you

Page 4517

 1     say that life was not normal.  Is that the first time that you stated

 2     that, this correction that is contained in paragraph 17?

 3        A.   No, I've made the same correction during the Milosevic case.  I

 4     have specifically been asked about this case.  There can be no normal

 5     life if somebody is under military and paramilitary formations under

 6     their guard and is threatened, as was the case of Stubla.  Because we

 7     feared that we could be eliminated at any time by those forces and these

 8     cannot be considered as normal conditions, life conditions.  We were

 9     guarded round the clock, and I've said this in my previous statements and

10     this information that I've given in the latest statement is to just

11     complete my earlier statements with the specifics.

12        Q.   Mr. Shabani, I'm putting to you the statements that I want to.

13     If I wanted to put to you some other statement, I would have done so.

14     Therefore, please answer the questions that I'm asking you.  And I'm

15     nearing the end anyway.

16             Am I right to say that when you set off towards Macedonia, that

17     the soldiers stopped you and told you to go to Presevo?

18        A.   Yes, from the moment --

19        Q.   Thank you, thank you.  This is all I need to hear.

20        A.   [Previous translation continues]...  told us --

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  ask you this:  You were

22     afraid of the Serbian army and instead of going to Presevo where they

23     told you to go, you went to Macedonia --

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And am I right to say that nobody escorted you, and

Page 4518

 1     you travelled on your own along this road towards Macedonia instead of

 2     going to Presevo?

 3        A.   Yes, at that moment nobody escorted us, and I've said it in my

 4     statement.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And my last question for you:  Is it fair to say that

 6     when you crossed the border nobody asked you to produce any ID or other

 7     documents?

 8        A.   The IDs, our documents were seen when they -- when we were

 9     searched -- all of us were searched to see who we were.

10        Q.   Mr. Shabani, please, please listen to what I'm saying.  You told

11     us how you were searched, but listen to my question.  I asked you while

12     you were crossing the border nobody confiscated your documents, yes or

13     no, please answer me that.

14        A.   Yes, nobody confiscated the documents.  That's how it was.  No

15     one took documents from us.

16        Q.   Mr. Shabani -- thank you, Mr. Shabani.  I have no further

17     questions for you.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  With

19     this, I have concluded my cross-examination.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djurdjic.

21             Ms. Nilsen, do you re-examine?

22             MS. NILSEN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution do not have any

23     questions for re-examination.  Thank you.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Shabani, the Chamber would like to thank you

Page 4519

 1     for coming again to The Hague to assist us.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  There are no further questions for you.  You will

 4     realise we have the statements you have given earlier and the evidence

 5     you have given earlier as well as the answers that you have been able to

 6     give today.  And we're going to have to study all of that in due course.

 7     So we want to thank you again for your assistance, and you may of course

 8     now return to your normal activities.  The court officer will show you

 9     out.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Fortunately it turned out that further time was

13     not needed for re-examination, so we are now eight or nine minutes short

14     of finishing.  What is the practicality of calling the next witness at

15     this point do you think?

16             MR. STAMP:  I don't think it would be convenient at this moment

17     to --

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Is it right, Mr. Stamp, it's a protected witness?

19             MR. STAMP:  Yes.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  We would need time to set up the court anyway.

21     That being said --

22             MR. STAMP:  I don't think we would need time to set up the court.

23     It's just a pseudonym.  I don't think we -- but to start now it takes

24     five minutes to get him here, and to get him sworn, so --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  We've been very considerate of Mr. Djurdjic in

Page 4520

 1     having breaks to allow him to look at things, so I think we can allow you

 2     to have an early finish today with a view to starting tomorrow morning at

 3     9.00.

 4             MR. STAMP:  I'm grateful, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  We therefore adjourn until 9.00 in the morning.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 15th day of

 8                           May, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.