Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4675

 1                           Tuesday, 19 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.  Ms. Kravetz.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good morning, Your Honour.  The next witness is

 7     Dr. Antonio Alonso.  His evidence is relevant to paragraph 75(D)

 8     Schedule (D), and 77 of the indictment.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11                           WITNESS:  ANTONIO ALONSO

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

14             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation that

16     is shown to you now.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare to tell the

18     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  Please sit down.  Now, you're receiving an

20     interpretation in Spanish of what I'm saying?

21             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Ms. Kravetz has some questions for

23     you.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

Page 4676

 1        Q.   Good morning, Witness.  Could you please state your full name for

 2     the record?

 3        A.   Antonio Alonso Alonso.

 4        Q.   Sir, what are you by profession?

 5        A.   I am -- I work at the National Institute of Toxicology and

 6     Forensic Sciences at the Institute of Biology, and I am specialised in

 7     forensic biogenetics.

 8        Q.   And since when have you been working at the national Institute of

 9     Toxicology and Forensic Science?

10        A.   Since 1984.  So therefore it's approximately 25 years that I've

11     been working at the biology service.

12        Q.   And very briefly could you explain what are your duties and

13     responsibilities at the institute where you're employed?

14        A.   Yes.  Basically I work as an expert with the -- at the court, at

15     the legal courts in the fields of genetics and forensic science with

16     three specialisations, the identification of remains, and in criminal

17     investigations through the study of the study of biological remains, and

18     also in paternity analysis, the biological investigation of paternity.

19     This is three main fields in the field of forensic genetics that I work

20     at at the institute.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Exhibit 65 ter 02501 is your curriculum vitae,

22     and I will not be going into detail since the document speaks for itself.

23     It is a document that you provided to our Office of the Prosecution in

24     2003.  I would like to know if there are any updates that you would like

25     to make to your curriculum vitae, any recent changes to your professional

Page 4677

 1     occupation.

 2        A.   Well, apart from some other scientific studies which of course

 3     aren't listed from 2003 to now.  I should point out that in Spain there

 4     is a new commission of recent creation for the forensic use of DNA.  This

 5     is an organism that regulates quality issues, bioethical issues, legal

 6     issues, and scientific issues of the application of DNA in forensic

 7     sciences, and I have been appointed secretary of this commission.

 8             Also, in the last two years, I have taken part as an expert in

 9     another commission or committee that was set up to develop a national

10     protocol for genetic identification for cases where there are major

11     disasters.  So these are the two most recent facts which are not in the

12     CV you have.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender the curriculum

15     vitae, this is 02501, into evidence.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be assigned P00798, Your Honours.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:

19        Q.   Sir you spoke about your duties at the Spanish forensic institute

20     and you said that you worked in the field of genetic and forensic

21     science.  Is DNA testing done at the institute where you're employed, and

22     if yes, what type of DNA testing is done there?

23        A.   Basically, as I said before, the DNA tests are carried out for

24     the purpose of identifying individuals, individuals who have disappeared,

25     or persons who were victims of major disasters; and we also have vast

Page 4678

 1     experience in the identification of individuals through the

 2     identification of skeletal remains in mass graves.

 3             On other occasions we -- we have helped this court with -- in

 4     cases relating to the war in Bosnia, and we have also identified victims

 5     of the Spanish civil war which took place between 1936 and 1939.  This,

 6     of course, is material which is far more difficult to work with than the

 7     material that we've been able to work for this court.  In that case it's

 8     because the remains are very, very old.

 9             And we also work with another field in forensic genetics is the

10     analysis of very old DNA, ancient DNA that may have even archaeological

11     value.  So our centre has a lot of experience, and we have really

12     specialised in the genetic identification of skeletal remains of bones.

13        Q.   And is the manner of DNA testing carried out by your institute

14     consistent with industry standards presently?

15        A.   In the field of forensic genetics, there is a very high degree of

16     standardisation in terms of the techniques that we can use or in the kind

17     of genetic markers that can be applied to the different kinship

18     relations, genetic kinship relations that we use.  We also use systems

19     that have been validated, and these are systems that are used by most of

20     laboratories worldwide.

21             So in brief, the reply is, yes, we do use standardised techniques

22     that have been assessed.  And throughout the process we also use a number

23     of controls, positive and negative controls, which indicate how reliable

24     the results are.

25             Also, our centre also engages in a number of exercises to prove

Page 4679

 1     its worth, as it were.  For example, there are controls carried out by

 2     the Spanish and Portuguese group of the -- Spanish and Portuguese group

 3     of the National Institute of Forensic Sciences and controls that are

 4     carried out with the European network of forensic science institutes.

 5     This is the European network that brings together all these institutes.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Sir, did you prepare four reports on genetic

 7     identification of human skeletal remains that were exhumed in 2001 at a

 8     location called Batajnica in Serbia?

 9        A.   Yes, indeed.

10        Q.   I understand -- I'm sorry, I just got the interpretation.  I

11     understand that the last of these reports which is dated

12     17th November, 2004, contains a summary of the findings of the previous

13     three reports and also some additional information regarding further

14     testings that your institute was involved in with respect to these

15     remains; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, indeed, that is correct.  The first three reports are

17     partial reports in the sense that we received different reference

18     samples, and in each of the reports we assessed the samples with samples

19     from relatives that we had received; and the last report is a final

20     report where we have all the results, but we also increase the number of

21     genetic markers, which means that the identification is more reliable,

22     because then the systems -- at the time we had then new systems with far

23     more markers which are -- which make them more reliable.  So this is the

24     final report.  It is complete as far as all the information that we had

25     at the time.

Page 4680

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I -- this report is 65 ter 02486.  It

 2     is the report dated 17th November, 2004, and I seek to tender that into

 3     evidence.  I will not be seeking to tender the first three reports for

 4     the reasons that have just been explained by the witness as these are

 5     contained within the final report.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  The report will be received.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned P00799, Your Honours.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Sir, in June of 2006, did you provide some responses to questions

10     that were sent to you by the Office of the Prosecution in relation to the

11     reports that you had prepared and also with -- were in relation to the

12     methodology used by your institute in carrying out its DNA testing?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And in these responses did you also explain various aspects of

15     your reports?

16        A.   Yes.  There are a number of aspects that have to do with the

17     tasks and the functions of the institute.  There's also explanations

18     concerning the qualifications of the specialists that signed this report

19     with the technical characteristics of the reports; also in terms of

20     quality assurance measures; also with the systems and the standardised

21     methods for the final statistical validation of the -- of the results

22     obtained; also concerning the -- the custody of the samples, of the

23     samples from the skeletal remains; and also the samples from the

24     reference kinship samples.  And this is -- these are all the replies that

25     are presented in that later paper.

Page 4681

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Your Honours, I seek to tender this exhibit into

 2     evidence.  It is 65 ter 02487.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  And that, Your Honours, will be assigned P00800.

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:

 6        Q.   Sir did you also previously testify before this Tribunal in the

 7     case of Milutinovic et al.?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Have you recently had a chance to review the transcript of your

10     previous testimony?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And having reviewed your testimony, would you provide the same

13     answers to the questions that you were asked then if you were asked those

14     questions today?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, I seek to tender the transcript of

18     the Milutinovic case.  This is 65 ter 05259.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned P00801, Your Honours.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:

22        Q.   Sir, I would like to now turn to your report, this is the fourth

23     report from 2004, and ask you some questions about that.  Could you --

24     could you first explain how it is that you became involved in the process

25     of genetic identification of the remains that were exhumed from

Page 4682

 1     Batajnica?

 2        A.   Well, Jose-Pablo Baraybar, an anthropologist, contacted the

 3     toxicology institute asking us if the institute might help with the

 4     genetic identification of different remains, including the remains from

 5     Batajnica, and I think that this was the first contact that we had.

 6     Afterwards, we received the samples from Batajnica.  They were sent

 7     directly by the director of the Institute of Legal Medicine of Belgrade.

 8        Q.   And do you recall the name of the director of the Institute of

 9     Legal Medicine of Belgrade who sent these samples to you?

10        A.   Yes.  It's Dr. Dusan Dunjic.

11        Q.   In your report you indicate that you received 56 samples from the

12     Belgrade institute, and on page 1 of the report these samples have been

13     identified with a code, a BA code and then a number.  Was this number

14     that was assigned to each one of the samples, this reference code, was

15     this assigned by your institute or did the samples come pre-numbered with

16     these -- this reference code from Belgrade?

17        A.   The samples had already been assigned these codes from Belgrade.

18     You can see that in fact in the photograph of each of the containers that

19     included -- containing the samples.  There was this identification given

20     to each -- to each of them.

21        Q.   And how were these samples sent to you?  Did Professor Dunjic

22     personally travel to Spain to deliver the samples or how were they sent

23     to you?

24        A.   Yes, indeed.  Professor Dusan Dunjic personally took them to the

25     National Institute of Toxicology.

Page 4683

 1        Q.   Now, in your report you also refer to receiving 13 blood samples

 2     of reference kin and 11 of which were received from the International

 3     Commission of Missing Persons and two from this Tribunal.  Based on the

 4     material that you received from these different institutions, how many

 5     positive identifications were you able to make after you conducted your

 6     testing at the institute?

 7        A.   Now, there's a total of 21 identifications that were carried out

 8     on the basis of three kinds of DNA markers:  autosomic inheritance

 9     markers, which are inherited at 50 per cent from the parents, the father

10     and the mother.  This also through mitochondrial DNA which is inherited

11     only through matrilineal descent; and also there's the analysis of

12     markers in the Y chromosome, which is inherited only patrilineally from

13     fathers to sons.

14             Now, we had analysed different kinship ties.  Firstly, relating

15     the samples to the remains to the reference samples.  Some of the remains

16     identified were also related to other remains to identify, as it were,

17     chain reactions.  It should be borne in mind that among these remains

18     there are family groups, many of them with a considerable number of

19     individuals within the same family group.  And there are two cases where

20     the analysis was done through mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome testing,

21     and in our previous report we had already said that since these kind of

22     markers, mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome, it was less discriminatory

23     in nature that we -- that this should be considered as a preliminary

24     identification, not as a proven or confirmed identification which would,

25     however, be the case for the rest of the identifications indicated in the

Page 4684

 1     report.

 2        Q.   Now, you referred to having been -- having made 21

 3     identifications on the basis of three kind of DNA markers.  What about

 4     the remainder of the 56 remains that you received?  Why were you unable

 5     to identify the remainder of those human remains?

 6        A.   Firstly, I should say, that among the 56 remains we identified 41

 7     different profiles.  So it means that there are some individuals that are

 8     repeated among the samples.  That's the first conclusion of this report

 9     that from the 56 samples of remains there are 41 individuals there.  In

10     fact, there are 10 individuals who are twice and 2 individuals who are

11     there three times.  That is, there are cases where there are three

12     remains of the same individual and a number of cases where there are two

13     remains, samples of remains of the same individuals.  So the first thing

14     is that from 56 presumed victims this figure would go down to 41, and

15     that's in the report.

16             We have only been able to compare these remains with 13 reference

17     samples.  It might well be that part -- that some of the non-identified

18     individuals, they have not been identified because we did not have an

19     appropriate reference sample.  There might be other explanations.  As,

20     for example, that the 56 victims which the intention is to identify are

21     not among these remains.  We don't know what the whole previous work done

22     on these samples was.  The anthropological identification which allows a

23     preliminary identification of these remains and thus we cannot know what

24     the reasons are for the non-identification of the other remains.

25        Q.   In your report when you're speaking about these identifications,

Page 4685

 1     you refer to the expression "cannot rule out the possibility."  Can you

 2     explain what that means?

 3        A.   Well, yes.  We say we cannot exclude the possibility of such and

 4     such an individual being the father or the son or the child of another

 5     sample.  Having analysed 15 different regions of the DNA, in each of them

 6     we have identified the combat ability that might be expected from a

 7     father/son or parent/child relationship.  Let us remember that this kind

 8     of DNA is inherited from parents to children, i.e., 50 per cent paternal

 9     genes and 50 per cent maternal genes.  And for each of these regions,

10     there's one variant that we receive from our fathers and -- and another

11     variant we receive from our mothers.

12             So what we're saying is that we cannot rule out this possibility

13     because we see that there is compatibility for each and every one of

14     these regions analysed.  Once we have this compatibility for each of the

15     regions, what we do is a statistical assessment of what the probability

16     would be or what the degree of probability would be on the basis that

17     these are indeed the presumed remains as compared to other remains.  So

18     this is what we call the likelihood ratio.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And in your report you explained that in

20     addition to receiving these remains and the blood reference samples of

21     kin, you also received two documents, a family tree from the ICTY where

22     the family ties between the reference samples and the Suva Reka massacre

23     victims were found and also a table that you received from the

24     International Commission of Missing Persons where again family ties

25     between the difference samples and the victims of this massacre were

Page 4686

 1     shown.

 2             Can you explain how you used these two documents in the process

 3     of genetic identification of these remains?

 4        A.   Yes.  What we do, whether we do a comparative analysis once we

 5     have the genetic profiles of the reference samples and the samples of the

 6     skeletal remains, is to compare all of them, every single one, and we do

 7     this in -- using a blind system, as it were.  And once we do that, we can

 8     have the genetic compatibility.  Once we have the genetic compatibility,

 9     if we have one of the reference samples which is part of a family group,

10     we evaluate whether this parent/child relationship identified corresponds

11     to the theoretical information that we have from the family tree.

12             So we try to see if the information that we obtain corresponds or

13     matches the information that we have from the family tree and the

14     information of that nature.  So it's like a puzzle.  We have different

15     kinds of genetic compatibility, parent/child or siblings, for example.

16     So we try to see them and try to check them and to match them with the

17     family tree.  And in all the cases, we have indeed established this

18     genetic compatibility but also the relations, the kinship from the family

19     tree.

20        Q.   So if I understand you correctly, you first examined the genetic

21     compatibility and establish the family ties before relying on this, on

22     the family tree and the document received from the commission of missing

23     persons.  Would that be correct?

24        A.   Yes, indeed, because this is done automatically.  The databases

25     using a software to carry out these comparisons which tell us between

Page 4687

 1     these remains and this reference sample a compatibility of 50 per cent is

 2     observed for each of these DNA regions.  So this can well be a

 3     parent/child relationship.  Once we have that, we go and check it in the

 4     family tree.

 5        Q.   And the actual names of the victims that you were able to

 6     identify, those were obtained from the family tree.  If I understand

 7     correctly.

 8        A.   Yes.  In most of the cases we obtained the names from the family

 9     trees, the different tables that we have.  We have also received the

10     names from the identification of the reference samples.

11             There's one thing I wanted to say:  The nomenclature used for the

12     names is not always constant, not always constant, and we mentioned this

13     briefly when we submitted the report, because sometimes or in most of the

14     cases the nomenclature used is surname, then name of the father between

15     brackets, and the given name at the end, but not always.  There are some

16     variations on this.  Sometimes, for example, it's only the surname and

17     the given name.  So the nomenclature is not always wholly standardised.

18     What we have done is to transcribe the information that we received in

19     the family trees, basically, but also the reference samples are

20     identified and it is these names that we have used for the identification

21     of these samples.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honours, the family tree and the document

24     prepared by the International Commission of Missing Persons is

25     65 ter 02500.  I'm not going to show it to the witness; he has already

Page 4688

 1     explained it.  But I seek to tender into evidence.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That, Your Honours, will be assigned P00802.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:

 5        Q.   Dr. Alonso, I would like to now move to the responses that you

 6     provided to the Office of the Prosecution.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  And if we could have up on the screen page 8 of

 8     65 ter 02487.

 9        Q.   This is a table that is attached to the responses you prepared.

10     In response to a question about the genetic profiles that were used in --

11     with regard to the populations that were used, you indicated that you had

12     used European and Spanish population genetic profiles but that you had

13     later recalculated these profiles based on a database of Kosovo Albanian

14     individuals which had recently been published.

15             If we have -- I would -- do you have the document up on the

16     screen before you?

17        A.   Yes, I do.  It's right here before me.

18        Q.   I would like you to explain the last two columns which are marked

19     LR1 and LR2.  If you can explain what the values are contained in those

20     columns represent?

21        A.   Yes, indeed.  Once we have determined the genetic compatibility

22     between the two samples, what we do is we assess how many times more

23     probable this is vis-a-vis the hypothesis that it is a relationship

24     father/son, mother/daughter, and so on and so forth, vis-a-vis the

25     hypothesis, that there is not that relationship and that it is two people

Page 4689

 1     who are not related genetically.

 2             Very well, in all the cases we see that that value - and I think

 3     in most of the cases it is above and beyond 10.000.  What does this mean

 4     now?  That it is 10.000 more probable that there is that compatibility

 5     than the hypothesis that there is -- in the hypothesis that there are two

 6     people related vis-a-vis the hypothesis that they aren't.

 7             When we say they are not related, what we do is we assess the

 8     general population and we see what the probability is that there's an

 9     individual who's compatible with this type of compatibility even if he's

10     not genetically related.  And, therefore, we need the genetic frequencies

11     of the population.  We've done two calculations.  Number one with

12     European frequencies, Caucasians from our own institute.  And in 2004 we

13     published a database with an Albanian -- Kosovo Albanian populations and

14     we've recalculated indices.

15             In every case there are variations, but from the point of view of

16     final significance, it's not really important in all the cases.  We are

17     confirming here that there -- we're at or above an LR of 10.000.  Now if

18     we change, if we transform this data this information in terms of

19     probability, of paternity, of maternity, one date of ORLR of 10.000 is

20     equivalent to a possibility of paternity, of maternity of 99.99 per cent.

21     An LR of a hundred thousand is equivalent to 99.999 per cent and so on

22     and so forth.

23        Q.   Were there any changes in the identifications, or did this new --

24     use of the new database of the Kosovo Albanian population in your

25     identification process, did that have any impact on your findings with

Page 4690

 1     relation to the identification?  I'm sorry.  Yes.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  I had realised the transcript had stopped, but I

 3     did not want to interrupt the witness.

 4        Q.   If you would wait before responding.

 5             I'll just repeat my question.  The transcript was not working.

 6             Dr. Alonso, what I had asked was whether when you recalculated

 7     your results on the basis of this new database of the Kosovo Albanian

 8     population, if that had had any impacts on the genetic identification

 9     that you had carried out when examining these remains.

10        A.   No, absolutely not.  In other words, the values are pretty much

11     the same in terms of LR.  The calculation has no significance for what we

12     obtained before.  Here we only assess the significance, the importance of

13     that compatibility.  And in all the cases, we have values that are to be

14     expected or that would be expected.  If we consider the relations

15     identified as certain.  Therefore, the reply is no, there are no

16     significant variations.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And given your experience and expertise in the area

18     of DNA testing, can you tell us in your opinion is the DNA identification

19     carried out by the Spanish -- by your institute, the Spanish forensic

20     institute reliable to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty?  I'm

21     talking about the DNA testing with respect to the remains received from

22     Belgrade.

23        A.   Well, it's the degree of reliability that today's genetic

24     technologies that we apply in this area of genetics allow us to arrive

25     at.  If you take a look, they are number -- certain numbers here,

Page 4691

 1     millions, hundreds of millions in terms of the coefficients and ratios,

 2     and that is because we have a reference sample and we have two

 3     individuals that could be the mother and the father.  In other words,

 4     when we have the two parents and a child, the value of those coefficients

 5     is much higher and much more reliable than if we only have a mother or a

 6     father then the coefficients go down.  I repeat that that is what we

 7     would expect in relation -- a kinship relation.  We understand that

 8     beyond -- above and beyond an LR or coefficient of a thousand or 10.000,

 9     well, we have high possibility of paternity, at least sufficiently so, so

10     as to say that they're practically proven identifications.

11        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Alonso.  Those are my questions for you.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  I have no further questions for the witness at this

13     stage, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.

15             Mr. Djordjevic.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have some questions for

17     witness.  Just to prepare.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Alonso.  My name is

20     Dragoljub Djordjevic, and I am the Defence counsel for the accused,

21     Djordjevic.  I will have a couple of questions for you, not many.  I

22     merely want to clarify certain matters in your expert report which is

23     otherwise of a very high level.

24             You answered my learned friend's question concerning the

25     56 samples sent to you by Mr. Dunjic from Belgrade.  We don't know why

Page 4692

 1     the mortal remains have not been identified, and this can be interpreted

 2     in several ways.  Were these -- were you referring to 56 bodies, or were

 3     these actually mortal remains to -- referring to a larger number of

 4     bodies that originated from Batajnica?  In other words, in addition to

 5     the 56 bodies, were there other samples as well?

 6        A.   No.  We refer to 56 pieces, units, individual units of skeletal

 7     remains.  Each one in hermetically sealed container that we received and

 8     we know nothing more about them.  We don't know to how many people they

 9     relate.  From those 56 remains, these are 56 samples, after an initial

10     analysis we see that there are 41 genetic profiles.  Amongst the 56

11     remains there are 41 people represented there.  That is the information

12     we can give you as a consequence and as a result of our genetic testing.

13             We do not know, we do not know how many victims are being looked

14     for.  We don't know whether as a result of the preliminary tests done,

15     anthropological tests after the exhumation, there is an approximate idea

16     of what the number of victims was or is.

17             You must remember that we received a unit, a piece of large bone

18     in most cases, so probably there's prior information from anthropological

19     analyses that indicate, and perhaps not in a certain manner or a

20     confirming manner, but that there's information regarding the number of

21     victims to be expected.

22             After the genetic tests of the 56 remains, we know that there are

23     41 individuals.  I don't know whether I answer your question.

24        Q.   Of course.  This is my follow-up question:  Does this mean that

25     the 56 remains you received, each and every one of the remains had been

Page 4693

 1     assigned a reference number and that had been assigned before the samples

 2     reached your hands, I suppose.

 3        A.   Yes, indeed.

 4        Q.   I believe that Dr. Dunjic, the director of the forensic institute

 5     from Belgrade and Mr. Fulton from the ICTY were present -- or, rather,

 6     they were the ones who brought the samples over to you.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did colleague Dunjic tell you at all or was it -- was it an

 9     assumption at the time that each and every one of these remains belonged

10     to a different person?

11        A.   I cannot exactly remember what he said, what Dr. Dunjic said at

12     the time.  The only thing they asked us to do was to analyse those

13     remains.  I don't know whether there was that idea that each one might

14     come from a different individual, a different individual.  Frankly, I

15     cannot reply to that question.

16        Q.   Does this mean that among the 56 remains there were identical

17     DNAs in respect on -- of some of the samples, or, rather, the DNA of a

18     certain individual was found in several remains?

19        A.   Yes, in fact, there were 10 individuals of whom there were two

20     samples or two remains, and two individuals I seem to remember of whom

21     there were three, and the -- the rest, each matched a different

22     individual.

23        Q.   There were 56 registered remains that were brought over to you,

24     and you said that they were from long bones mostly.  It can be assumed,

25     and you'll agree with me, that Dr. Dunjic, in bringing over the different

Page 4694

 1     56 samples bearing different reference numbers, presumed that each and

 2     every one of the remains belonged to a different person.  Would you agree

 3     with me?

 4        A.   It could be that way, but it could also be that, depending on the

 5     circumstances in which the remains are recovered, and depending on

 6     whether these are complete skeletons or not, it is very usual that there

 7     are doubts and that samples are taken from different parts so that

 8     through a technology that allows us to differentiate we differentiate.

 9             Oftentimes we receive samples without there being security or

10     knowledge whether it is from different individuals or not, so there can

11     be doubts.  This all depends.  It depends on the circumstances of the

12     common grave, of the type of remains that are found, whether partial

13     remains or they're complete skeletons, like I said.  And therefore this

14     is a difficulty, a primary difficulty in the area of analysis.

15             So there are two reasons based on the supposition that there are

16     56 individuals or whether there are doubts as regards that they are or

17     not 56 individuals.  Like I said, that all depends on the difficulty

18     surrounding the remains.

19        Q.   This is my next question for you:  Having received the evidence,

20     the samples, did you also receive records which would show you from which

21     location and in what way were the remains exhumed to which these

22     reference samples belonged?  Did you have any knowledge of these matters

23     when conducting your analyses?

24        A.   We did not have any information of the details.  We only knew the

25     place, the remains from Batajnica, in other words, and we had an

Page 4695

 1     analysis -- or, rather, a chart with possible results, anthropological

 2     results, very general.  They only identified who might be a man, who

 3     might be a woman.  And in some cases, because amongst the victims there

 4     were children, there were infants, there was also the age, the possible

 5     age.

 6             Remember that these types of anthropological analyses are

 7     approximate analyses, they're not as reliable as the ones we're

 8     determining here today of genetic origin.  They are only general.  They

 9     give approximate ages.  They point to the possibility of it being a woman

10     or a man.  This also depends on the number of remains found.

11             This is the only information we had at the time.  We knew the

12     remains were coming from Batajnica, and we had a small chart pointing to

13     the possibility of somebody being a woman or a man and the approximate

14     age.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic, I'm sorry.  As indicated

16     yesterday, we have to adjourn now.

17             I'm afraid, Dr. Alonso, we must interrupt the proceedings for a

18     time.  There is a -- a special ceremony that the Judges must attend now.

19             We hope to be able to resume sitting at 10.30, but that will

20     depend precisely on the length of the ceremony.  So we apologise for this

21     interruption, but we will adjourn now and resume at 10.30 or as near

22     after that as possible.

23                           --- Recess taken at 9.53 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.32 a.m.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

Page 4696

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mr. Alonso, further to what we discussed, I would like to know

 3     the following:  Would it have helped you had you had complete reports of

 4     forensic anthropologists and forensic medicine specialists concerning the

 5     remains you received?  That's to say, the remains of the individuals who

 6     were supposed to be identified.

 7        A.   Well, the job we did is blind, and that way that's why it gives

 8     warranties.  We don't need to have that previous information.  We obtain

 9     the genetic profiles and compare them.  What could have been interesting

10     in order to get a better degree of discrimination would have been if we

11     had gotten more reference samples from family.  That would have been

12     helpful.  But really, in these kind of cases, what we do is we -- we work

13     blind.  We access compatibilities, obtain the profiles, and then we

14     compare it with the reference.  We go to the trees, and there we can find

15     the kinship relationship that we have identified between a remain and a

16     reference sample and see how it fits within a genealogical tree.

17             So what we do normally with genetic analysis is a comparative

18     analysis that we do blind.  For the combined assessment, and this doesn't

19     apply only to this field, but for example for the identification of

20     missing people in great catastrophes.  In the end, it's good to actually

21     integrate all the data that we can maybe obtain from radiological

22     analyses, odontological, or genetical, or of prints.  But here we have

23     bone remains, and it wouldn't have really helped us since we actually

24     this these -- they were bone remains.

25        Q.   Tell me, the first contacts made with you for the work you did

Page 4697

 1     for the ICTY were made, in fact, by the forensic anthropologist,

 2     Mr. Baraybar.  Am I right?

 3        A.   Yes.  He was the one who got in touch with the National Institute

 4     of Toxicology, and he asked us whether we could actually carry out this

 5     analysis.

 6        Q.   Tell me, who was it who subsequently agreed with you that the

 7     first samples should be taken to Madrid?  You said that it was

 8     Mr. Dusan Dunjic who came, the director of the

 9     Forensic Medicine Institute from Belgrade and Mr. Fulton, a

10     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor at the time.  But who was

11     it who arranged for their arrival and their visit to your institute?

12        A.   I do not know this information.  It was both Professor Dunjic and

13     Mr. William Fulton.  Both of them actually arrived at the institute with

14     the samples once the anthropologist told us that they were actually

15     looking for a reputed lab in order to carry out these identifications and

16     that they needed a given specialisation.  This happened in 2002.  And at

17     that date, not too many labs had the experience we had actually with the

18     analysis of bone remains.

19             So it was actually both of them who established contact with

20     Professor Baraybar, and they went to the institute.  We agreed the date

21     for the visit, and they came with the samples.

22        Q.   Since at the time there still did not exist a laboratory in

23     Serbia that would conduct the type of analysis you engaged in, did you

24     engage in any preliminary arrangements with Professor Dunjic as to the

25     type of samples that had to be brought along and the manner in which they

Page 4698

 1     were to be transported?  In addition, did you discuss the manner in which

 2     the samples had to be designated, or was it all the result of an ad hoc

 3     arrangement?

 4        A.   I don't remember whether before we actually received these

 5     samples we actually had a contact with Dr. Dunjic.  However, the samples

 6     we got from the way they were wrapped and the way they were presented,

 7     they were -- this was done in the right way in order to use them as

 8     evidence.  It didn't look like anything was ad hoc, really.

 9        Q.   On -- at several places in your report you mention the term

10     "contamination."  What does it exactly mean, the contamination of a

11     sample?

12        A.   Most of the samples with these many years usually allow for

13     destruction of very small amounts of DNA.  These amounts so -- are so

14     small that they can actually be even smaller the amount that we can be in

15     a droplet of a saliva when we speak.  That's why we have to develop

16     measures in order to avoid contamination and in order to monitor the

17     possibility of detecting contamination.  That's why before extracting DNA

18     the remains are cleaned in the outside surface, in the marrow; as well,

19     they're treated with UV light in order to destroy all possible

20     contamination on the surface.

21             We work under biological security bells in order to avoid

22     contamination from the operator.  We also wear special clothes and in a

23     special area to carry out the analysis, which is actually independent,

24     apart from the place where the DNA's extracted.  In order -- in

25     destructions of DNA, we actually carry out negative checks.

Page 4699

 1             And we do all this because we work with a very small amount of

 2     DNA.  The technique we use in order to get the profiles, we use the

 3     polymerase chain reaction, that technique.  That technique allows us to

 4     amplify quite an important amount of DNA from a very small.  And in this

 5     process, if we have any contamination, this contamination will be

 6     amplified as well.  That's why all this work is done this way in order to

 7     avoid contamination and also to monitor whether there has been or not

 8     some contamination.

 9             The DNA was quantified.  All the negative checks were negative.

10     All the samples gave us amounts of DNA that were actually above the

11     amount needed with today's techniques.

12        Q.   Did you extract the DNA from the compact tissue of the bone or

13     from the dental material contain in the samples that were brought over to

14     you?

15             Secondly, the samples that were delivered to you, did they

16     exhibit any signs of contamination that may have originated from the time

17     before they came into your hands?  And did they exhibit any signs of

18     external -- externally inflicted defects, destruction, or anything of the

19     sort which may have had a bearing on the identification process you

20     embarked on to establish who the samples belonged to?

21        A.   As regards the first question, we extracted DNA through -- from

22     the compact tissue.  We did not actually have any dental tissue.  Dental

23     samples are actually the best DNA, but so is the compact tissue.

24             The samples we received showed the contamination normal for these

25     kind of samples.  These are bone remains that actually have gone through

Page 4700

 1     a rotting process that had destroyed the soft tissue.  So there is

 2     actually bacterial contamination.  However, this doesn't affect our

 3     analysis, because we only analyse the human DNA.

 4             We didn't see any external sign of tampering or destruction of

 5     any handling of the samples.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  The autopsy reports which those of us involved in the

 7     case had access to, I'm not sure if you had them at your disposal, but,

 8     for example, in the Sterenberg Jon report, there is reference to the

 9     corpses exhumed from Batajnica, and since I learned from my colleagues

10     who are also experts in this field, I understood that any sort of burning

11     to which remains may have been exposed to could make DNA identification

12     impossible, I would like to know whether any of your samples exhibited

13     any marks of burning or anything of that sort.

14        A.   No.  At least in the samples we got, in the bone remains we got,

15     we could not see signs of burning.  I don't have any knowledge of the

16     autopsy reports.  However, when a bone is burned, and it depends on the

17     degree of this burn, sometimes it can be impossible to actually be able

18     to extract any DNA from such remains.  What we had was a compact tissue,

19     the normal bone colour, and we didn't see any signs of burn.

20             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to call up

21     Exhibit D003-0379.

22        Q.   This is the statement you gave on the 15th of November, 2008.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  2006.

24             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Please tell me, is this the statement you gave, and do you recall

Page 4701

 1     giving the statement?

 2             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]  Can we show page 1 to the

 3     witness, please?  This is all in English.

 4        Q.   Let me assist you, Doctor.  This is your statement where you

 5     spoke of Batajnica, as well as of the Glodjane location.  Do you recall

 6     that?

 7        A.   I do remember.  This is my signature.  I remember the questions

 8     from this interview are not related to the samples from Batajnica that

 9     were also taken by Professor Dunjic to Madrid and that they were -- they

10     had different features regarding identification and regarding the state

11     of the remains, so we couldn't proceed with a DNA test.  They were left

12     in custody.  I think this is related to this case.

13        Q.   It is related to this case in terms of the way the investigations

14     into the Kosovo crimes were conducted.  What I'd like to know is, At the

15     time when Dr. Dunjic delivered the mortal remains received in Glodjane in

16     Kosovo, whether he was also accompanied by Mr. Fulton,

17     Mr. William Fulton.

18        A.   Yes, he was.

19        Q.   Tell me, at which point did you establish that the Glodjane

20     remains were contaminated to such an extent that they would not allow for

21     any sort of DNA analysis to be carried out?

22        A.   At -- we did not establish that they were so contaminated that

23     they couldn't actually -- contaminated that they couldn't be -- go

24     through a DNA test.  What we said is that these samples were not the most

25     appropriate samples since it was not compact tissue.  It wasn't bone, but

Page 4702

 1     it was soft tissue that in cases was completely rotten.

 2             And also, some of the containers had somehow not too reliable

 3     identification.  There were some codes that were crossed over with -- and

 4     then they had another code that didn't correspond to the first one.  So

 5     what we did, we just kept these samples in custody, and we put them -- we

 6     made them available to the Tribunal.

 7             But it doesn't mean that we cannot actually get results from

 8     these samples.  What I'm saying is that the DNA is going to be

 9     deteriorated, and it will be harder to carry out the tests.  And in some

10     cases, for example when it was only soft tissue, due to the high degree

11     of the decomposition, we might not be able to get any information out of

12     them.

13        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  I misunderstood this part, but quite

14     understandably so.  I am a layperson.  Thank you for your explanation.

15             At point 6 of your statement you say that you received the

16     remains from Batajnica with a view to identifying the kinship

17     relationships of the individuals whose mortal remains were given to you.

18     You state there that you weren't given or provided any details.  What did

19     you refer to precisely there, that you did not receive any possible

20     indication of the identities, of the identities of their family members,

21     or something quite different?  Can you explain this, please.

22        A.   When we received the remains, all we knew was that they were

23     remains from a common grave, that genetic analysis was to be done, and

24     that we had some idea as to who could be the victims.  And we also got

25     reference samples in order to establish identity.  That was all the

Page 4703

 1     information we had at the moment, the number of samples that we

 2     registered at the centre and the need to carry out a genetic analysis in

 3     order to do comparison with reference samples that we would be getting

 4     later as we got these samples over time.  That's all the information we

 5     had.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  That's clearer now.  At page 10 of your statement,

 7     which is --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 9             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] -- at paragraph 10 of your

10     statement at page 3, you say that you had expected to receive only the

11     samples from Batajnica, and you were surprised to find that you had been

12     furnished with the Glodjane samples as well.  Can you tell us why were

13     you surprised to receive both the Batajnica samples and the Glodjane

14     samples, and how did it come about that you in fact received samples from

15     Glodjane?  Did you ask any additional explanation as to that?

16        A.   Well, I was surprised in the way that the institute was expecting

17     concrete, specific samples, and then on top of these samples we got

18     another set of samples.  That, as I said, the institute took pictures of

19     them and kept them frozen in custody, and they are available for the use

20     of the Tribunal.  And we didn't analyse them because it was stated in

21     this report and for other aspects that I -- actually we have communicated

22     to the Tribunal.

23             So our centre was expecting some samples, then another set of

24     samples arrived.  That's why we were surprised.

25        Q.   That's precisely what I wanted to clarify.  When your services

Page 4704

 1     were hired, I suppose that the discussions taking place between your

 2     institute and the ICTY went along the lines of the fact that you would be

 3     provided with some samples.  Can you tell us something about these

 4     discussions that took place and how come -- were you given any sort of

 5     explanation as to why you received the Glodjane samples since

 6     Mr. William Fulton, a representative of the ICTY, was present at the

 7     hand-over?

 8        A.   Well, I don't remember exactly what the conversation was at that

 9     point.  What we did make clear both to Professor Dunjic as to Mr. Fulton

10     was that we were waiting for or expecting the Batajnica samples and that

11     the other samples, of which we had had no knowledge before receiving

12     them, that we would keep them in custody; but I said there were samples,

13     there was a lot of decomposition, putrefaction, that we would keep them

14     frozen.

15             Years afterwards we were asked by the Tribunal about those

16     samples.  We gave the relevant explanations, and I think that these

17     samples were then analysed by the International Commission for

18     Missing Persons.

19        Q.   What I'd like to know in relation to the material received is as

20     follows:  For the purpose of your analyses, were you given any sort of a

21     court order, an ICTY order when it came to the Batajnica samples or not?

22     In other words, is there a court order to the effect that you should

23     analyse these remains?

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Have you received an interpretation of the

25     question?

Page 4705

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm sorry, I didn't hear the

 2     interpretation into Spanish of the last question.

 3             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask the interpreters to

 4     tell me if I should repeat the question?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, please.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  The answer is yes, Mr. Djordjevic.

 7             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   For the reference bone samples from the Batajnica location, did

 9     you receive a court order to conduct your analyses of those samples in

10     line with the highest quality standards employed by your institute?

11        A.   Well, I don't know if you could call it a court order, but

12     certainly there was interest from the Tribunal and from -- this had been

13     expressed in our correspondence that this analysis should be carried out.

14     This concerning, for example, with the reference samples that they sent

15     us or with the family trees that they had also sent us.  There was

16     interest from the Tribunal that we should carry out these analyses, but

17     there was also Professor Dunjic.

18             So there was, on the one hand, this question from the institute

19     in Belgrade, but there was also clear interest from the Tribunal.  So

20     there was a request.  There was a request that was made, and the fact

21     that ICTY sent us the reference samples, the additional information, the

22     family trees so that we could carry out the investigations will show

23     clearly that there was an interest there.

24        Q.   Did Dr. Dunjic ever send you reference samples of the Glodjane

25     remains, the genealogical trees, and samples of the closest relatives of

Page 4706

 1     those whose remains were found in Glodjane and the samples of which

 2     remains you had in your possession at the institute?

 3        A.   At no -- at no time.  Neither information or family trees nor

 4     reference samples from possible relatives of the victims, no.

 5        Q.   Did this Tribunal ever show any interest for the Glodjane remains

 6     that were sent to you by Dr. Dunjic and Mr. Fulton?

 7        A.   Yes.  A Prosecutor from the Office of the Prosecutor at some

 8     point requested information, had asked us for information on those

 9     samples and whether analysis could be carried out.  We provided them with

10     the information and documentary information of the samples and the state

11     they were in, and we recommended that it should be -- that analysis

12     should be carried out by a laboratory with a high -- with a lot of

13     experience in performing analysis on this kind of sample, on these very

14     difficult samples.  And we even suggested that it should be the

15     international commission that should carry out these samples because of

16     the high degree of difficulty.

17        Q.   Was the name of the Tribunal employee, Mr. Fernando Triana?

18        A.   I think that this was the Prosecutor, the Spanish Prosecutor, who

19     told us on the phone that there might be an interest in these samples.  I

20     can't remember exactly, but I think that was the name.

21        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  My next question concerning the Glodjane

22     remains is as follows:  In item 22 of your statement, you say that the

23     same year that you were contacted by Mr. Triana, that is to say 2006 in

24     March, there was also an investigator of this Tribunal who came,

25     Mr. Harjit Sandhu, who came to Madrid personally.  You also state that

Page 4707

 1     you handed over to him the reference samples from Glodjane which he took

 2     away.  Did I understand that correctly?  Could you please clarify that?

 3     That is item 22 and 23 of your statement.

 4        A.   It wasn't the reference samples, it was the samples of the bone

 5     remains.  These were the own samples that the institute had, and these

 6     were given with the relevant custody document to Harjit Sandhu from the

 7     Tribunal, investigator from the Tribunal.

 8        Q.   After that you were contacted by Mr. Patrick Lopez-Terres

 9     inquiring about the samples once they had already left the institute.

10     What was it all about, and who did Mr. Terres work for?  This is in

11     item 23 of your statement.

12        A.   Now, I don't remember exactly who Mr. Lopez-Terres worked for.  I

13     imagine that he worked for the Tribunal.

14             Now, normally when we explain technical issues to people who

15     have -- well, who have no specialised knowledge of the matter, sometimes

16     there are difficulties in terms of understanding.  If you see that

17     there's contamination, bacterial contamination or through fungi, people

18     understand that no, it will not be possible at all to obtain DNA.  This

19     is not always the case.  When we tried to explain at the time that these

20     were samples which -- for which we couldn't ensure that there would --

21     the guarantee that there would be success in obtaining DNA, that it might

22     be very difficult to obtain nuclear DNA, which is the kind of DNA which

23     is mostly used for this kind of identification.  But it might be possible

24     to obtain, let's say, mitochondrial DNA, which is less affected by this

25     kind of contamination by microorganisms.  It was this kind of technical

Page 4708

 1     explanation that we provided, and this was given together with

 2     documentation concerning these samples.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Answering my questions today, some ten minutes ago

 4     you said that once you handed over the mortal remains from Glodjane to

 5     the investigator of the Tribunal, that you advised them that the remains

 6     could better be analysed given the type of evidence, i.e., that these

 7     were not bones but, rather, soft tissue, that a different location would

 8     be better suited to analyse them.  Which particular scientific

 9     institution did you have in mind when you offered that advice?

10        A.   Well, I had said this before.  We meant basically the

11     laboratories of the International Commission for Missing Persons.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Probably so.  I may have omitted that or failed to

13     understand it.  My next question is this:  Do you know what the fate was

14     of the remains?  Do you know what became of them and what happened with

15     them after you handed them over to the Tribunal representative?

16        A.   No, I have no official knowledge of what the ultimate fate of

17     those remains was, but I am a scientific colleague of one of the people

18     responsible for forensic analysis at the International Commission for

19     Missing Persons, Dr. Thomas Parsons; and it is my understanding that

20     these samples were, indeed, analysed at the labs of the International

21     Commission for Missing Persons, but I have no official knowledge of that.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Alonso, considering the type, the reference

23     samples were taken from family members, what is the actual importance of

24     that procedure for the job you undertook?

25        A.   I'm sorry, I haven't understood your question.

Page 4709

 1        Q.   The way the reference samples were taken from family members for

 2     whom it was presumed were next of kin to those who had been killed, be it

 3     in this instance or in some other cases of disasters, the way they are

 4     taken, how important is it?  How important is the procedure itself for

 5     the overall task you aim to conduct?

 6        A.   Well, of course it is important, and there are two things that

 7     are basically important when taking a sample.  On the one hand, that the

 8     biological sample is to be adequately preserved.  Mostly, for example,

 9     it's blood samples which are placed on a filter paper and where there's a

10     sufficient quantity to make it possible to obtain DNA reliably and to

11     carry out two analyses, in fact.  That's one thing.

12             Secondly, the second thing is the identification of the

13     individual from which the sample has been taken and the chain of custody.

14     In all cases we received samples that had been taken adequately with the

15     appropriate kits, that the containers had been sealed, which we then

16     opened at the laboratory, having inspected the material, the

17     documentation, and so forth.

18             Now, of course the taking of the sample is a very important

19     moment in terms of the identification of the person from whom it was

20     obtained.  It is this sample that will be used for the identification,

21     and also again the state of preservation of the sample that is free from

22     any contamination, et cetera, is of particular importance.

23        Q.   I will go back to the analyses of mortal remains you undertook

24     concerning the Batajnica remains.  You said that you received those

25     reference samples as well as family trees at a later point.  As part of

Page 4710

 1     what procedure did you obtain those reference samples?  Was that through

 2     direct contact with your lab, or did you simply get by those samples

 3     because they were sent on your request without any additional procedure?

 4        A.   I seem to remember that in each of the reports that we submitted,

 5     and I think the first one was done using mitochondrial DNA with only one

 6     reference sample, we had said there once again that we needed more

 7     reference samples in order to be able to identify the other samples.

 8             All these samples were sent either by FedEx, by courier.  They

 9     were FedExed or sent by DHL.  And I have already said that they arrived

10     in containers which were sealed and perfectly identified.  And in our

11     internal -- in our reports on the receipt of these samples there are no

12     comments.  There's nothing to point out concerning the state of these

13     samples, the state in which they arrived.

14        Q.   Who took those reference samples, and who was the person to send

15     them to you?  I suppose they came from the same institution.

16        A.   Of the 13 samples that we received, 11, they are -- there's a

17     custody document with the whole -- with all these references.  This is

18     from the International Commission for Missing Persons.  And two of the

19     samples came directly from this Tribunal.

20             The Tribunal has these documents, and there it is possible to see

21     exactly who it was that took these samples, and the whole chain of

22     custody until they arrived at the lab, and each of these samples, the

23     documentation is signed as well by the person who took the sample.

24        Q.   Thank you.  My last question for you today has to do with the

25     mortal remains from Glodjane.  Once you handed them over to the Tribunal

Page 4711

 1     investigator Mr. Harjit Sandhu, did you hand them over according to

 2     prescribed procedure in order to spare them of possible contamination,

 3     putrefaction, or any other processes of that nature?

 4        A.   Yes indeed.  These samples were quite contaminated already.  This

 5     contamination from microorganisms is putrefaction, but in any case we

 6     prepared -- these samples were delivered in a fridge, in a refrigerator,

 7     ice box so as to avoid the -- as much as possible this contamination.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  I will not have any additional questions for

 9     you today.  I thank you for the clarifications you provided for us.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]  I would kindly ask that the

11     witness statement of the 15th of November, 2006, be admitted into

12     evidence.  It is D003-0379.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned D00118, Your Honours.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

17             Ms. Kravetz, any re-examination?

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  No, Your Honour.  I have no re-examination.

19     Thank you.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Doctor, you'll be pleased to know that completes

21     the questions of you today.  The Chamber is grateful that you were able

22     to come to The Hague and for the assistance that you have been able to

23     give and for the detailed reports that you have prepared and which we now

24     have a greater understanding of.

25             You may, of course, now return to your normal affairs, and we

Page 4712

 1     thank you once again.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  The next witness is ready, Mr. Behar?

 5             MR. BEHAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The next witness will be

 6     Tahir Kelmendi.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  We gather there may be some problem with reading

 8     in the case of the witness.  Is this a matter of an eyesight difficulty

 9     or --

10             MR. BEHAR:  I can indicate I'm not entirely sure.  There does

11     seem to be an eyesight difficulty.  Mr. Kelmendi informed us that he does

12     not have glasses either.  So I think if -- if things could be read to him

13     that would certainly be the most convenient.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16                           WITNESS:  TAHIR KELMENDI

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, sir.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Do you sincerely and solemnly affirm that the

21     evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

22     but the truth?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Please sit down.  Mr. Behar has some

25     questions for you, but first it may become very difficult for you to hold

Page 4713

 1     that earphone the whole time.  If both are pulled in -- oh.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Behar.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Behar:

 5        Q.   Yes.  Good morning, sir.  Thank you very much for coming here

 6     today.  Can you please state your full name and your date of birth for

 7     the record.

 8        A.   I am Tahir Kelmendi.  I was born on the 21st of April, 1954, in

 9     Qyshk, Peja municipality.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And I understand that you're still living in Qyshk.

11     Is that correct, sir?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Sir, I understand that on the 22nd of May, 2008, you gave a

14     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you

15     experienced in Kosovo; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And have you had the opportunity to have that statement read to

18     you before coming to court today?

19        A.   No, I didn't see it.

20        Q.   The -- the statement that you gave to the

21     Office of the Prosecutor when we were in your proofing session, did you

22     have a chance to go through that statement with an interpreter?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And I understand that there are a few things in that

25     statement that you'd like to correct so that it accurately reflects your

Page 4714

 1     evidence.

 2             MR. BEHAR:  Can I have up on the screen 65 ter number 05135,

 3     please.  And I'll be dealing first with paragraph 6.

 4        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 6 I understand that there may be an issue with

 5     the date.  I'll just read the section to you.  You state:

 6              "I remember that on the 25th of April ... the Serbian police

 7     came to our village asking to hand over weapons because nobody would ever

 8     harm us, and they received one legal held short gun and one hunting

 9     rifle, since we didn't have any other weapons in the village."

10             Is that date mentioned there correct or does that require a

11     correction?

12        A.   This is correct.

13        Q.   Okay.

14        A.   The date has to be corrected though.  It was on the 17th and not

15     on the 25th.

16        Q.   That's right.  Thank you, sir, and I think that's clear.

17             Let me take you to one more correction?

18             MR. BEHAR:  If we could have paragraph 75 up.

19        Q.   In this paragraph, and again I can read it to you, sir, you're

20     describing the killing of Avdi Berisha that you observed.  You described

21     him being shot by what seemed to be a sniper.  And this statement says:

22              "This particular killing of Avdi Berisha I saw from a distance

23     of not more than 30 metres.  I was just on the other side of the stream

24     where Avdi got killed."

25             Is that distance correct or is there a correction or

Page 4715

 1     clarification that you'd like to make?

 2        A.   The distance is 3 metres.

 3        Q.   So it's 3 metres and not 30 metres; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, are you satisfied that the information that's

 6     contained in your statement is true and accurate to the best of your

 7     knowledge and belief?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honours, I would seek to tender that statement,

10     please.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  And that, Your Honours, will be assigned P00803.

13             MR. BEHAR:  I can now provide a brief summary for the Court of

14     Mr. Kelmendi's evidence.

15             Mr. Kelmendi was born and raised in Cuska.

16             He'll describe how in the early hours of the 14th of May, 1999,

17     he observed Serbian police and VJ surrounding and then entering his

18     village.  He will explain that he recognised some of those police

19     officers, including a Mr. Obrnovic, commander of the Klicina police

20     station.  He explains how he had seen and spoken with some of these

21     police officers in the recent past.

22             Mr. Kelmendi hid and observed an unfolding massacre and

23     deportation.  He watched as the Serb forces separated the men from the

24     women and children.  The women were sent to one house where they geared

25     in the courtyard as the house itself was set on fire.

Page 4716

 1             He observed as the Serb forces divided the men and sent them in

 2     three groups to three different houses, 15 men to the house of

 3     Azem Rexha, 12 to the house of Sadik Gashi, and 10 to the house of

 4     Deme Gashi.

 5             He heard shootings in each of the houses.  He then saw Serb

 6     forces set fire to those houses using flammable cartridges.

 7             He watched as the forces then took the women and children out of

 8     the courtyard and loaded them onto tractors, sending them out of the

 9     village to Peja.

10             After the Serb forces left, Mr. Kelmendi was confronted with the

11     bodies of his friends, neighbours, and relatives.  He helped to hide

12     those bodies, and then to bury them in a large grave.

13             That is the end of the summary.

14        Q.   Sir, I do have some questions for you.  I'm going to have a

15     number of questions about the 14th of May and the events on that date.  I

16     do first have a couple of questions for you about what happened before

17     that day.

18             At paragraph 36 of your statement, you explain that on the

19     13th of March -- actually, pardon me, the 13th of May, in the evening,

20     about 80 refugees came to Cuska from the neighbouring village of

21     Katundi i Ri, and you described that a man named Ranko Vlahovic had been

22     in Katundi i Ri and had told these refugees to come to Cuska because

23     Serbian please would be sending all of the Cuska villagers to Albania the

24     next day.

25             My question for you, sir, is can you tell us how it was that you

Page 4717

 1     learned that?

 2        A.   These things were told to me by someone who came there from the

 3     Katundi i Ri.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Would counsel please ask the witness to speak

 5     closer to the microphone.

 6             MR. BEHAR:

 7        Q.   Sir, I'll just ask you if you can, we have microphones here, if

 8     it's possible if you can speak a little bit more closely to the

 9     microphone.  And we did receive your answer for the last question so

10     that's fine, but I will have some further questions for you.

11             Could I ask you then, did you see these refugees yourself when

12     they came to Katundi i Ri?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you mentioned that these things were told to you by someone

15     who came from Katundi i Ri.  Is this one of the refugees that you've

16     described?

17        A.   This person is from Katundi i Ri.  Suf Tafilaj is his name.

18        Q.   You also -- you described this man Ranko Vlahovic.  Can you tell

19     us who was Ranko Vlahovic?

20        A.   Ranko Vlahovic was the commander of the police station in Ozdrim

21     village.

22        Q.   And can you tell us how you knew that?

23        A.   Even before what happened in this village, I used to know this

24     person.  I sat with him.  I have talked with him.

25        Q.   I have some questions now for you about the events on the

Page 4718

 1     14th of May itself.  You described that at 6.00 a.m. on that morning you

 2     were out taking your cattle to the field.  You described seeing police

 3     and VJ or army surrounding your village, and you described seeing Serb

 4     forces coming from the direction of Peja.  Can you tell us how far Peja

 5     was from your village?

 6        A.   Peja is about three kilometres away from Qyshk.

 7        Q.   And you described the uniforms that you saw these forces wearing.

 8     You explained in your statement that the Serb forces were wearing

 9     camouflage, either with prevailing blue or with prevailing green colours,

10     and you also described them wearing black bandannas and what sounded like

11     face paint.  I wonder, can you describe what you mean by that, what they

12     had on their faces that you observed?

13        A.   The colour was black with green on the face.

14        Q.   You had described seeing Serbian police patrolling the Peja road

15     in police cars, and you described recognising one of those officers as a

16     man named Obrnovic.  This is in paragraph 24.  Can you explain to the

17     Court who Mr. Obrnovic was and how you recognised him?

18        A.   I used to know Obrnovic even before that case, because I had

19     contacts with him.  He was a very familiar face to me.

20        Q.   And can you tell us who he was, what his position was, if you

21     know?

22        A.   Obrnovic was commander of the Klicina station, police station.

23        Q.   And you say that you had contacts with him.  Can you explain that

24     for the Court a little bit?  Had you spoken with him in the past?

25        A.   Not that day, because it was impossible for anyone to approach

Page 4719

 1     him that day.

 2        Q.   I understand that, but how about in the past, in these --

 3        A.   In the past, yes.  In the past, yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And can you explain the contacts you had had, just briefly, the

 5     contacts you had with him in the past?  Had you spoken to him before?

 6        A.   In the past?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   I was a farmer and always ran into him on my trips to and from

 9     Peja, so I knew him personally.  I knew who he was.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, in paragraph 27, you describe as

11     well that the day before, that would be on May 13th, Mr. Obrnovic had

12     sent another man named Mijo Brajovic to find out whether the villages in

13     Cuska were armed and whether there was any police presence.  Can you tell

14     us how you know that -- how you knew that?

15        A.   I know this because at 2.00 in the afternoon of the 13th, with

16     Mijo Brajovic I talked.  He said to me, "Don't be afraid, because nothing

17     will happen to you."

18        Q.   And can you explain what did you understand him to mean by that

19     when he was telling you not to be afraid?  What would you have been

20     afraid of?

21        A.   As villagers that we were, we shouldn't be afraid of the forces

22     when they came.

23        Q.   Did Mr. Brajovic tell you himself that Mr. Obrnovic had sent him?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25        Q.   And did you know as well Mr. Brajovic from before?  Was he

Page 4720

 1     someone that you had known before you spoke to him on this occasion that

 2     you're describing?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And just before we move on, I know you mentioned the Klicina

 5     police station that Mr. Obrnovic was the commander of, can you tell us

 6     where the Klicina police station or where this town was in relation to

 7     Cuska, your village?

 8        A.   It must be about 6 or 7 kilometres away from my village.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And how about Ozdrimi?

10        A.   Ozdren is on the other side.  It links Mitrovica with Peja.  It's

11     another -- this is another station that links Peja with Prishtina.  This

12     Klicina is on the road Prishtina-Peja.  Ozdren is on the road that links

13     Mitrovica with Peja.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You describe in your statement that civilians in your

15     town were gathered in the centre of the village, and you described in

16     paragraph 41 that you didn't go there to the centre of the village, that

17     you were watching from about 50 metres away.  Can you explain to the

18     Court where you were watching from?

19        A.   I was 50 metres away from what was happening.  After the house of

20     Deme Gashi.

21        Q.   And when you say "after the house of Deme Gashi" - that's how it

22     was interpreted to us - were you on the other side of the house, or can

23     you explain more where you were?

24        A.   I was behind the house.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You described, as well, that the men were separated

Page 4721

 1     from the women.  Can you explain how this was done, how they were

 2     separated?

 3        A.   The police forces separated men from women when they came to the

 4     village.  They asked them to hand over their identity cards, to throw on

 5     the ground their money, everything they had on them, the jewellery,

 6     everything.  Then after that they separated them in three groups.  The

 7     first group they sent to Azem's house, the second to Sadik Gashi's, and

 8     the third to Deme Gashi's where I was -- behind which I was standing.

 9        Q.   Now, I'll have some detailed questions for you about what

10     happened next.  Let's deal first with the group of women that you've

11     mentioned.  And first, can I ask where were the children?  Were there

12     children there as well?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   And where were the children divided?  Were they divided as part

15     of that group as well?

16        A.   Yes.  The women and the children were sent to Sali Rexha Gashi's

17     house.  They were burnt.  And then they put these people in Sali Rexha

18     Gashi's house --

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   -- after they burnt house.

21        Q.   Let me just go through that then a little bit more slowly.  I

22     know you explained in your statement that the women and children were in

23     the courtyard and that as you've just explained that Sali Rexha's house

24     had been set on fire.  Can you explain to us who set the house on fire

25     and how that was done?

Page 4722

 1        A.   The force, the very forces that separated men from women.

 2        Q.   And did you observe how the house was set on fire, this house?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And can you explain to the Court what you saw, how that was done?

 5        A.   When they separated women and children, they sent them there, but

 6     first they set fire to it with those inflammable things they had.  And

 7     then they sent the women and children there to see the terror that was

 8     taking place.

 9        Q.   Are you able to explain -- you've explained that they had these

10     inflammable things or devices.  Can you explain what you saw and how it

11     was exactly, if you saw this, how they set that house on fire?

12        A.   I don't know how to explain it to you.  It was a kind of round

13     thing, a cartridge, I think.  It was like a bottle, in the shape of a

14     bottle, and with that thing they set the houses on fire.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you some questions now about what happened

16     with the men.  I know you described briefly for us today and also in your

17     statement the Serb forces dividing the men.  Are you able to explain to

18     us in a bit more detail how the men were divided by the Serb forces?

19        A.   Yes.  They divided them in three groups.  The first group was

20     taken to the house of Sali Rexha Gashi, the second group to the house of

21     Sadik Gashi, the third to the house of Deme Gashi.  After they took them

22     inside, you could hear the rifle shots; and immediately after that, they

23     set the house on fire to do away with any trace.

24        Q.   And I'll -- I'll follow that up again with you, sir, in some

25     detail.  Before we do that, can you tell us how far apart these houses

Page 4723

 1     were from one another?

 2        A.   The house of Sadik from Deme's house are about 30 metres from

 3     Deme's, from Azem's house are about 70 metres apart.

 4        Q.   And I notice that in your statement you sometimes refer to the

 5     house of Azem Gashi and other times you refer to the house of Azem Rexha.

 6     Can you tell us, are those the same people, or is that the same person?

 7        A.   Yes.  Azem Rexha Gashi has father's names -- name and his last

 8     name.  That's why I refer to him by that name.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I think that's clear.  Can you tell us as well which

10     house did Syl Gashi normally live?  I know at times you've referred to

11     his house.  Was that the same house as one of those three?

12        A.   Syl Gashi is the son of Azem Rexha Gashi, but we called him

13     Muharrem.  In the papers his name was recorded as Syl.

14        Q.   So would it be correct, then, that the house of Syl Gashi is the

15     same as the house of Azem Gashi?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Let me take you through now, if I can, what happened to these men

18     with each house.  If we can deal first -- you describe in your statement

19     in paragraph 56 the first shootings being heard in Azem Gashi's house.

20     Can you explain to us what you saw and heard with respect to that house?

21        A.   When they took the first group there, I heard automatic rifle

22     shots and then saw the flames after five minutes to burn the bodies.

23        Q.   And you say that you saw flames.  Did you see how that fire was

24     started?

25        A.   Not at Azem's house, because it was impossible to see who set the

Page 4724

 1     fire; but after five minutes, I could see the flames and the smoke.

 2        Q.   You describe the next firings that you saw and heard being in

 3     Sadik Gashi's house.  Can you explain what you saw and heard there?

 4        A.   The second group was taken to Sadik Gashi's house, and they did

 5     the same thing as the first case.  They killed and burned them.  And

 6     among them I saw Hazir with his broken leg trying to walk away from that

 7     place.

 8        Q.   And the third set of shootings that you described in your

 9     statement was at Deme Gashi's house.  Can you explain to the Court what

10     you heard and saw there?

11        A.   They brought ten men to the house of Deme Gashi, took them inside

12     the house, killed them with automatic rifles, and Rexhe Isuf Kelmendi

13     managed to survive.  He was in the room.  It was his luck to survive the

14     shooting.  He escaped from the window.

15        Q.   And I'll have some questions for you as well about what you saw,

16     what happened in the aftermath.  Before I go there, just so that we're

17     clear, can you explain again how far you were from these houses when you

18     made these observations?  Were you in the same place that you described

19     previously?

20        A.   I was 50 metres behind Deme's house.  I was lying on the ground.

21        Q.   Are you able to describe the -- the forces, the people who were

22     doing these acts, who were firing these shots and who were burning these

23     houses?

24        A.   These people were dressed in police and army uniforms.

25        Q.   And can you describe for us what those uniforms looked like?

Page 4725

 1        A.   Blue and green camouflage, but the faces I couldn't see properly

 2     because it looked like horror movies, like the Ninjas.

 3        Q.   And when you say like Ninjas, is that because of the bandannas?

 4     Am I understanding that right?

 5        A.   From the face you could say that.  All my life I have never seen

 6     such horror-stricken faces, never.

 7        Q.   Sir, can you tell us who Qash Lushi was?

 8        A.   Can you repeat the question, please?

 9        Q.   Yes.  Can you tell us who Qash Lushi was?  Was he one of your

10     fellow villagers?

11        A.   No.  His name is Qaush Lushi, with "ch".

12        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Qaush Lushi, can you tell us who he was?  Was

13     he one of your fellow villagers?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you tell us what happened to him?

16        A.   Yes.  That day when they divided men from women, in order to save

17     his son from the massacre they asked him to pay them 100.000 euros, and

18     he asked his wife to go and fetch the money.  He gave the money, then the

19     son was massacred, and Qaush was slit on his neck in front of the house

20     where the first group was executed.

21        Q.   I think we may have had a problem just with the interpretation on

22     the last part.  You said something about his neck.  Can you explain what

23     happened after he gave the money?

24        A.   They slit his throat.

25        Q.   Did you see that yourself or how you did you learn that?

Page 4726

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  I saw it with my own eyes.  They put him in the

 2     toilet, and they cut off his head with a Kalashnikov.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us how far approximately you were from that when you

 4     made that observation?

 5        A.   I was behind the house of Deme Gashi, and the distance from the

 6     site of the event was about 60 metres, because the toilet was located on

 7     the lower part in the same direction where I was lying.

 8        Q.   When you say toilet, is this the toilet in a house or is this an

 9     outhouse?  Can you explain?

10        A.   It was an outhouse in Azem Gashi's yard.  It was Azem's toilet in

11     the yard.

12        Q.   And again, just so we're entirely clear, can you explain who it

13     was who was doing this, who it was who killed him?

14        A.   The same persons that were there in Qyshk's massacre.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, I do have some more questions for you about

16     that, but I see that we're nearing, I think, the time for a break.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  That is so, Mr. Behar.

18             We must have a break now, and we resume in half an hour.  The

19     court officer will assist you during the break.  We will resume at 12.30.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Behar.

24             MR. BEHAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Sir, when we left off, you had just finished telling us about

Page 4727

 1     this murder that had taken place, or this killing that had taken place in

 2     an out house.

 3             MR. BEHAR:  Can I have up Exhibit 05258, please, on the screen.

 4     I'll need photo number 6.  It's not coming up.  05258.

 5             Just a moment's indulgence, Your Honour.  I think there's an

 6     issue with the exhibit.

 7                           [Prosecution and case manager confer]

 8             MR. BEHAR:  Just while that's being resolved, perhaps I'll try to

 9     come back to that.  Perhaps we can have up P00772 from earlier in this

10     trial.

11        Q.   Sir, there's a photo of a man -- can you see the photo on your

12     screen?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   There's one of the men depicted in that photo in the centre at

15     the top or at the back.  Can you tell us, do you know this man, sir?  Do

16     you know who that is?

17        A.   The one in the middle?  Yes.  This is Salipur, and he was an

18     active policeman in Peja.

19        Q.   Can you tell us how it is that you know him?

20        A.   I know him because on the 26th of March, Ram Xhemajli Kelmendi in

21     Qyshk, he was 98 years old and he was killed by him.

22        Q.   Is that something you saw or did you hear about that from

23     somebody?

24        A.   Uk Kelmendi, Ram Xhemajli's son told me the next day.

25        Q.   Had you had any dealings with Mr. Salipur in the past, and can

Page 4728

 1     you explain how you came to know who he was?

 2        A.   He was a very dangerous person.  He was a very serious and

 3     well-known criminal in the Balkans.

 4        Q.   And had you seen him in your town or nearby?

 5        A.   I used to see him in Peja, because he was an active policeman in

 6     Peja for a long time.

 7        Q.   And just in terms of timing, can you say when you would see him?

 8     Is this the same year?  Is this the previous year?

 9        A.   Before the war in Kosova I used to see him several times.  Not

10     just once, several times.  His name was Munja.  He was a very dangerous

11     person.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Returning to -- to the events of May 14th that you

13     were describing for us, you explain at paragraph 61 and 62 of your

14     statement that Serb forces at this point, after these -- the shootings

15     and the burnings of the three houses with the men in them, that after

16     that took place, the Serb forces took the women and children out of

17     Sali Rexha's yard, loaded them onto tractors and sent them to Peja.  Can

18     you tell us, sir, were your wife and children in that group of women and

19     children?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you see the convoy leave yourself?  Did you see this group of

22     people leave yourself?

23        A.   Yes, on tractors.

24        Q.   Can you tell us what direction they headed in?

25        A.   They were directed towards Albania in order to cover up what they

Page 4729

 1     had done and hide the bodies of the people that had -- they had killed in

 2     Qyshk.  They directed the people towards Peja, and then they told them to

 3     go back up to Zastava and then they told them to go once again in the

 4     same direction three times.

 5        Q.   And I know that what you're describing now you also described in

 6     paragraph 64 of your statement.  Can you tell us how it is that -- that

 7     you know that, that you know where the convoy was going and when?

 8        A.   My wife, my son, and two daughters were there where the tragedy

 9     happened.

10        Q.   Now, I -- I'd like to, if I can, now, sir, focus on the

11     observations that you made of those houses where the men had been and

12     what you saw after the Serb forces left.  Can you tell us, sir, what it

13     is that you saw, what observations you made of those houses and of your

14     fellow villagers?

15        A.   In the beginning I was following what was going on when

16     Avdi Berisha was killed right before my eyes.  I returned to the place

17     where I was earlier, and I tried to bring the bodies out so that they

18     would not burn, because I knew that today would come, today that I would

19     be able to tell the story.  There was such a big fire that it was

20     impossible to tell whether there had been bodies there or not.

21        Q.   So perhaps we can discuss your observations of the houses

22     individually.  Can you tell us what observations you made at this time,

23     after the forces had left and you went to see the house, at the house of

24     Azem Gashi.  Can you describe what you saw there?

25        A.   I found the bodies burning.  Flames were coming out of them.  I

Page 4730

 1     thought I would go crazy.  I could see the bodies moving because they had

 2     not died yet.  They had been burnt alive, even though they had been shot.

 3        Q.   Were there any survivors from that house, the house of

 4     Azem Gashi?

 5        A.   Only Hazir Berisha in Sadik Gashi's house.  Ninety-five per cent

 6     of the others had been charred.  Even two hours later, when I went there,

 7     the bodies were still, some of them, moving.

 8        Q.   I know you mentioned Mr. Berisha and Sadik Gashi's house.  Can

 9     you explain what observations you made in that house at Sadik Gashi's

10     house?

11        A.   The men were taken there.  They were killed and then set on fire.

12     Hazir Berisha is a survivor.  He had been injured on his leg, and he

13     tried and managed to climb out of the window and escaped.

14        Q.   Did you observe that yourself?  Did you see his escape?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And did you see Mr. Berisha afterwards as well, after he had

17     escaped the house?

18        A.   No.  It was impossible, because he went into the wheat field.

19     Behind the house of Sadik Berisha there was this wheat field, and that's

20     where he went.

21             MR. BEHAR:  Can we have up photo -- sorry, Exhibit P00797,

22     please.  And I need photograph number 4.

23        Q.   Just a moment, sir.  It's not this photo I'll ask you about, but

24     another one.

25             Sir, do you recognise the building that's being shown in this

Page 4731

 1     photo here, what's left of that building?

 2        A.   This is Sadik Gashi's house, and the person here is Hazir Berisha

 3     from Qyshk, the one who survived the massacres -- the massacre when the

 4     Serb and Slav forces executed them.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Finally, I would ask you about any observations

 6     you made afterwards at the house of Deme Gashi.  Are you able to explain

 7     what you saw in that house, in the aftermath of the shooting and the

 8     burning that you described?

 9        A.   The same situation as in Sadik's house.  Ten men were taken into

10     the house.  They were killed and then set on fire.

11        Q.   Let me ask you, sir, in paragraph 57 of your statement you speak

12     about the survivors of these massacres.  I'll just read that to you.  You

13     say:

14              "Later on I learnt that Isa Gashi survived execution in the

15     house of Azem Rexha.  Then Hazir Berisha survival or survived from the

16     killing in the house of Sadik Gashi, and Rexhe Kelmendi survived

17     execution in the house of Deme Gashi."

18             I know you described seeing Mr. Berisha escape.  Are you able to

19     tell us how you knew that Isa Gashi and Rexhe Kelmendi survived?

20        A.   Rexhe Isuf Kelmendi climbed out of the window, because when they

21     were taken inside, the policeman ordered him to take the matches and set

22     the house on fire, and then after that, he climbed out of the window and

23     escaped.

24        Q.   And can you explain how it was that you learned what you just

25     told us?  Is that something you saw, or did someone tell you that?

Page 4732

 1        A.   Rexhe, when he came out of the window, I saw him.  I was 50

 2     metres away from the window and from the house, and I beckoned to Rexhe

 3     to come to where I was, because otherwise he would have been caught and

 4     killed.

 5        Q.   And how about with Isa Gashi?  Is that something that you saw

 6     yourself, or was that explained to you, or how did you learn about his

 7     survival?

 8        A.   I could not see Isa because Isa was 60 or 70 metres away from the

 9     place I was, but after we were trying to take the bodies away from the

10     houses on fire, I met him and he told me what happened to him.

11        Q.   So you've mentioned now taking the bodies away, and I wanted to

12     ask you some questions about that as well.  I know that in paragraph 70

13     of your statement you describe hiding the bodies of the people who had

14     been killed.  Can you explain to the Court why you felt that you needed

15     to hide these bodies and who you were hiding them from?

16        A.   From the police, because they wanted -- they were interested to

17     cover up everything.  They wanted to burn them and -- so that nobody

18     would know what had happened there, destroy the traces, all of them.

19        Q.   Are you able to explain to the Court how you hid those bodies?

20        A.   Yes.  When they were killed, and then burnt, myself, with the

21     help of Mustaf Krizbuki [phoen] and some other villagers, we managed to

22     pull the bodies away.  It was impossible to bury them on the same day

23     because there were civilians.  1.240 people were sheltered there.  And I

24     took plastic sheets, wrapped the bodies individually, and then we opened

25     a big grave and buried them there all together.

Page 4733

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  You mentioned a little while ago in your

 2     testimony the name Avdi Berisha.  Can you explain to us what happened to

 3     Avdi Berisha?

 4        A.   When I was observing the police forces leaving Qyshk, because I

 5     knew that they would go to Pavlan because Qyshk and Pavlan are very close

 6     to each other, next to each other, Avdi's house was about 60 metres from

 7     the asphalt road, and he was killed by a -- by a sniper 3 metres away

 8     from me, right in front of my eyes.  A police sniper killed him.

 9        Q.   And again just so we're clear, did you observe him being shot by

10     the police?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honours, if I could just have a brief

13     indulgence.  I just wanted to check on the status of that exhibit I was

14     trying to show earlier.

15                           [Prosecutor and case manager confer]

16             MR. BEHAR:  I apologise for the interruption.  It's being worked

17     on.

18        Q.   Sir, I wanted to ask you as well.  You described people on this

19     day, on the 14th of May, being set out -- sent out, deported from the

20     village of Cuska.  I wanted to ask if you yourself had ever made any

21     observations prior to these days, before this time, of any other

22     Albanians who were travelling in a large group like that.

23        A.   Yes.  People in Peja suffered more than us in Qyshk.

24        Q.   And are you able to explain what it was that you saw, what

25     observations you may have made of people from Peja?

Page 4734

 1        A.   I saw the convoys going towards Montenegro in order to escape.

 2        Q.   And can you describe where you were when you made those

 3     observations?

 4        A.   All the time I was moving around because I wanted to know what

 5     was going on and what was happening to the Albanian people.

 6        Q.   So were you making these observations from Cuska, from your

 7     village, or where did you make them from?

 8        A.   No, closer, because I could see the fire and the smoke.  I had

 9     never before and never since seen in my life such fire and such smoke.

10        Q.   So I'd like to focus on that a little bit then.  Can you explain

11     where you were seeing this fire and smoke?

12        A.   I was a shepherd, I had cattle, and I saw everything that the

13     Serbs did.  What they did, what they burnt, how they forced the

14     population out to go through the fields.

15        Q.   But again just so we're clear, is what you're describing, was

16     that in Peja that you saw that?  I'm just trying to help the Court to

17     understand where this was that you were seeing things.

18        A.   I saw these things in Peja, and people also told me how they had

19     been expelled.  There was great confusion.

20        Q.   Are you able to tell us then, I know you mentioned a convoy

21     earlier, are you able to explain what that looked like?  And by that I

22     mean approximately how many people you saw and how they were travelling.

23        A.   There was a large number of people.  There were cars, tractors.

24     It was an extraordinary number of people.  From the town people were

25     walking or going to some other place, and if people are in such great

Page 4735

 1     numbers, it's easy to see them.

 2        Q.   And did you see this on the road somewhere or where were the

 3     people walking?

 4        A.   Peja's exit towards Montenegro can be seen from the field because

 5     it's a flat area.  You can see everything from the field.

 6        Q.   And are you able to tell us when you made these observations?

 7        A.   I can't remember the exact date.  However, this happened before

 8     the Qyshk massacre.  As I said, the exact date escapes me.  They expelled

 9     the people, and they burned the whole town.

10        Q.   Would this have been in the same year as the Qyshk massacre you

11     described?  Can you give us a rough approximation?  Was it months before,

12     a year before?

13        A.   Yes.  In the same year.  I think it was not even one month

14     before, but as I said, I can't remember the exact date.

15        Q.   And I just wanted to clarify an earlier answer.  When I had asked

16     you did you see the road or where was this road that you were describing,

17     you described Peja's exit towards Montenegro.  I just wanted to ask you

18     again so we're clear.  Can you explain where -- where this road was?

19     Maybe -- maybe it's best to explain where it was in relation to Peja and

20     to Cuska.

21        A.   The road Peja-Mitrovica, 3 kilometres out of Peja, there is this

22     arrow that shows the direction towards Montenegro, and that's where I saw

23     the people who were travelling, who were going in that direction.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And just one more clarification question about this

25     area.  When we're talking about Peja, are you referring to the town of

Page 4736

 1     Peja itself or to the larger municipality?  Are you able to explain that?

 2        A.   The town.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I do just briefly have two exhibits or two

 4     photographs I'd like to show you.  If I could just have a moment.

 5                           [Prosecutor and case manager confer]

 6             MR. BEHAR:  I wonder if it's possible to put these up on the

 7     ELMO.  I can explain, Your Honours.  These were part of the previous

 8     65 ter number -- okay.  It's up already.  I see.

 9             These were part of the previous 65 ter number.  I understand they

10     were deleted when they were briefly put in.  Actually, if I could have

11     the other photograph first.

12        Q.   Sir, you were discussing earlier in your testimony this killing

13     that took place in the outhouse, and I'm wondering if you're able to

14     identify this structure that we're seeing here.

15        A.   I cannot see it.  Ah, yes.  This is the place where Qaush Lushi's

16     head was cut off.  This outhouse is about 15 metres away from the house.

17     His head was cut off with an automatic rifle, and on these panels here,

18     boards, you can see the bullet holes that cut -- of the bullets that cut

19     his head.

20        Q.   And perhaps we could have the other photo up now as well, sir.  I

21     believe this is just a close-up of what you've just described.  Are those

22     the bullet holes that you were referring to?

23        A.   Yes.  This is the bullets that cut off his head, because he paid

24     a hundred thousand euros and his son Astrit was killed, and then he

25     himself was killed in this outhouse.

Page 4737

 1        Q.   Yes.  Thank you, sir.

 2             MR. BEHAR:  Your Honours, I would seek to tender those

 3     photographs.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  They will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  And they would be assigned P00804, Your Honours.

 6             MR. BEHAR:  Those are my questions for you, sir.  Thank you very

 7     much.  And my learned friend on the Defence will have some questions for

 8     you now.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic.

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  If I

11     may have a moment for preparation, please.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kelmendi, good afternoon.  My name is

14     Dragoljub Djordjevic.  I appear on behalf of the accused, Mr. Djordjevic.

15     I have a few questions for you in order to clarify some of the facts that

16     you were asked about by my learned friend, Mr. Prosecutor.

17             Mr. Kelmendi, what is your profession or vocation?

18        A.   I am a farmer.

19        Q.   What is your educational background?

20        A.   Eight years of schooling.

21        Q.   How did you get in touch with the Prosecutor's office of

22     The Hague Tribunal, since I can see that you provided your first

23     statement in 2008, on the 22nd of May.

24        A.   I met them earlier as well, because eight members of my family

25     were burned in the fire as Albanians.

Page 4738

 1        Q.   When was the first time that you provided any sort of statement

 2     by -- to this Tribunal?  Is that the statement that was tendered dated

 3     the 22nd of May, 2008?

 4        A.   No, it was earlier.  When NATO forces entered and Kosova was

 5     liberated, I gave an interview at the site where the massacre happened.

 6     Euro News also reported on the massacre on television.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kelmendi, are you sure in 1999 when you say NATO entered

 8     Kosovo that you provided a statement to representatives of the

 9     International Tribunal, or was it to representatives of some other

10     international organisation?

11        A.   I gave statements to the people who were interested to know about

12     the Qyshk massacre.  I don't know why those statements are not reflected

13     here.

14        Q.   Do you know which organisations those people represented to whom

15     you gave a statement concerning the Cuska massacre?

16        A.   I don't know.  I was distressed at the time because of the things

17     I had experienced and the things I had seen committed by the Serb forces.

18     It was unimaginable what they did.

19        Q.   I'm sorry about that, but I would still like to ask you whether

20     you remember that in 1999 you gave any kind of statement to any

21     representatives of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former

22     Yugoslavia.

23        A.   Italian KFOR knows this better.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kelmendi.  Am I right in saying that your village

25     is actually in the outskirts of the town of Pec?

Page 4739

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you describe where your house was exactly in

 3     relation to the road between Pec and Pristina from the direction of Pec?

 4        A.   My house is 300 metres far from the asphalt road as the crow

 5     flies.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who Hazir and Fadil Berisha are?

 7        A.   Yes.  They are my co-villagers from Qyshk village.

 8        Q.   When you referred to the person leaving the house of Sadik Gashi

 9     that was on fire, was it one of the two people that we are discussing

10     here now?

11        A.   Hazir Berisha is the name.

12        Q.   My question is this:  The person you saw leaving the house of

13     Sadik Gashi that was afire in May 1999, being the only person to survive

14     the shooting in the house, do you know who that person was?

15        A.   This person is Hazir Berisha, the person who was one of those

16     killed.  He is a living testimony to the massacre when the forces acted

17     against them.

18        Q.   Did I understand you correctly?  Are you saying that that person

19     was killed?

20        A.   Hazir escaped with a broken leg, and with his body in flames he

21     managed to escape the massacre.  I explained this even earlier.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I understood you to be saying something else.  I

23     apologise.  How far was the house of Hazir and Fadil Berisha from your

24     house?

25        A.   It is interesting, but Hazir's house is in another street.  Mine

Page 4740

 1     is in another street.  But as the crow flies, we are about 300 metres

 2     away from each other.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Would you be able to do something for me on a clean

 4     sheet of paper or perhaps with the assistance of some technical equipment

 5     that this Tribunal has, to -- would you be able to indicate where the

 6     Gashi house was as well as the house of Hazir and Fadil Berisha, and

 7     where were you exactly when you witnessed the events of the

 8     14th of May, 1999?  Would you be able to make a sketch, first of all

 9     Hazim Gashi house, Fadil Gashi house, and the place where you were at

10     observing everything.

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

13     assist the witness so that he would be able to use the electronic pen in

14     order for him to be able to make a sketch as regards the house of

15     Azem Gashi, then Sadik Gashi's house, as well as the house of Deme Gashi

16     and to mark these houses with the letters A, S, and D respectively.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  I think it's going to be more practical with

18     paper, Mr. --

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

20     [In English] Obviously.

21        Q.   Please put a square where the house of Azem Gashi should be, and

22     put a letter A next to it.  And the next square where Sadik Gashi's house

23     should be and mark it with an S.  And make a third square representing

24     the house of Deme Gashi, and you mark it with a D.  Also put another

25     square or circle, mark it with an X, to reflect the position that you

Page 4741

 1     were at.

 2        A.   Can you please repeat the question?

 3        Q.   It wasn't a question, actually, although I will have a question

 4     afterwards.  But on this piece of paper please put squares to indicate

 5     the houses of Azem, Sadik, and Deme Gashi, where the events took place.

 6     Mark the house of Azem Gashi with an A, the house of Sadik Gashi with an

 7     S, and the house of Deme Gashi with a D.  Also put a circle and mark it

 8     with an X to mark the spot where you were.  That is what I wanted to ask

 9     you.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Could you also please mark the place where the outhouse was.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  One at a time.  Yes.

13             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

14        Q.   First of all, the house of Azem Gashi, put an A.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  The three houses are marked.

16             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  Okay.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Now you want to put an X with a circle to show the

18     location where the witness was.

19             MR. DJORDJEVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  And then one further thing.  Beyond the X, what

21     else did you want marked, the outhouse?

22             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the outhouse where Qaush, I

23     believe, was killed.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  It's already marked.  The witness is well ahead of

25     us.

Page 4742

 1             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] What about the position X?  I

 2     don't see that?  Where was the witness?

 3        Q.   What are you indicating?  Is that the place where you were?

 4        A.   I was here, behind the house.  From here I could see that they

 5     gathered the people here, and then they took to Azem's house.  I was

 6     lying here all the time.  I saw everything from the beginning to the end.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Would you please be able to mark with an X in a

 8     circle where you were near the house.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   If I understand this correctly, you were behind Deme Gashi's

12     house.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this drawing.

16             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be assigned D00119, Your Honours.

18             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The next thing I would like to ask you is this:  What is the

20     distance between the place where you were and Deme Gashi's house,

21     approximately?

22        A.   It is about 14, 15 metres.  Of course I could -- I didn't measure

23     it, but I tried to come as close as possible to the place of event.  I

24     saw Azem's son in the crowd, and I tried to go as close as possible.

25        Q.   How far is Deme Gashi's house from the house of Azem Gashi, in

Page 4743

 1     your opinion.

 2        A.   About 60 to 70 metres.

 3        Q.   How far is Deme Gashi's house, in your opinion, from the house of

 4     Sadik Gashi?

 5        A.   Very close.  They are separated by the main road that goes to

 6     Azem.  Maybe 40, 50 metres, not more than that.

 7        Q.   How far is Sadik Gashi's house from the house of Azem Gashi?  In

 8     your opinion.

 9        A.   Maybe a little bit more, because Sadik's house is near the

10     graveyard, on a lower place.  I don't know what to say.  They are very

11     side by side.  Neck to neck I would say, but I never measured it.  I

12     don't want to give you an exact figure because I am not a surveyor, a

13     land surveyor, to measure it.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In any case, that was not my intention.  I wanted to

15     hear your opinion about the distances.

16             The outhouse, I see that the closest house to it was the house of

17     Azem Gashi.  How far is it from that house, in your view?

18        A.   The outhouse might be 10 metres away from Deme's house.  So I

19     would say 40, 50 metres.

20        Q.   The usher took away your drawing, but I saw a number there, a 10.

21     Did you put that to indicate the distance between the outhouse and the

22     house itself?  I can see that on the drawing, and the paper is being

23     brought to you.

24        A.   Number 10 shows the distance between the outhouse.  It was a

25     public outhouse for the village.  It was 10 metres far from Azem's house,

Page 4744

 1     outside the road, this outhouse.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  The place behind Deme Gashi's house where you were,

 3     was there any growth there, tall grass?  Is it a flat area, a depression?

 4     What does that location look like right behind Deme Gashi's house?

 5        A.   It is a canal.  There are growth -- green growths.  It is a very

 6     dense foliage there.  Only the birds can find you there.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Knowing the culture and way of life of

 8     Kosovar Albanians, I would like to ask you this:  Around the houses of

 9     Azem, Sadik, and Deme Gashi, were there any brick walls or not?

10        A.   No, no.  In Kosova there are no walls.  After Communism was

11     collapsed, we did away with all walls.

12        Q.   When did that take place in your village that you tore down the

13     walls?

14        A.   On the day that we handed over the membership cards, the party

15     cards, we did away with that.

16        Q.   When was that?

17        A.   You know that better than I.

18        Q.   I don't.  That's why I'm asking you.  When did Communism cease in

19     Kosovo and Metohija?  What year was that?  I really don't know.

20        A.   I don't know the year.  I don't know which year.

21        Q.   Are you quite certain that even today there are no brick walls

22     around any of Albanian houses?

23        A.   It is a fact that there are no brick walls.  If you don't believe

24     me, come with me.  I have my Besa being an Albanian.  You can come with

25     me and see yourself.

Page 4745

 1        Q.   I'm merely posing questions here, and I have some information

 2     that points otherwise.  The next question I have has to do with the

 3     photograph that was shown to you first by the Prosecutor.  On that

 4     photograph you recognised one person by the name of Salipur, aka Munja.

 5     You also used some other adjectives concerning that person.  My question

 6     regarding the photograph, I think it is Exhibit P00772 if I'm not

 7     mistaken, it is the group photograph use by my learned friend.

 8             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have that

 9     brought back to the screen.

10        A.   Yes, yes.  This is the man.

11        Q.   [In English] Okay.  [Interpretation] I will have a few questions

12     for you regarding this photograph.  This photograph that you're now

13     looking at, is this the first time that you see it?

14        A.   No, sir.  This is the last time I'm seeing this gentleman,

15     because I have seen him alive.  He has done everything possible short of

16     eating people alive.

17        Q.   Am I right when I say that this is not the first time that you

18     see this photograph?  You have seen this photograph before, the one that

19     you're looking at now?

20        A.   I saw him live in civilian clothes, in uniform, this person.

21     Before -- even before the war.

22        Q.   You didn't understand my question.  I'm asking you about the

23     photograph, not the person nicknamed Munja whose last name was Salipur.

24     I'm asking you about this photograph.  Is this the first time that you

25     see this photograph?  That's what I'm asking you.

Page 4746

 1        A.   No.  I have seen that many times.

 2        Q.   When did you see this photograph for the for the first time,

 3     Mr. Kelmendi?

 4        A.   It's absurd to ask me such a question.  This was a very bad

 5     person.

 6        Q.   When was the first time that you saw this photograph,

 7     Mr. Kelmendi?

 8        A.   I said earlier when.

 9        Q.   Can you tell me how much earlier than the events of the

10     14th of May, 1999?  Approximately.  Did you see it for the first time in

11     recent times or immediately after KFOR was deployed in

12     Kosovo and Metohija?

13        A.   I saw him for thousands of times.  I told you.  Do you understand

14     me or no?

15        Q.   No, I don't, because I'm asking you about the photograph, not

16     about Salipur.  I'm asking you about the photograph.

17             Let's imagine that Salipur is not there, although you do

18     recognise the photograph.  I'm asking you about the photograph.

19             When did you see the photograph for the first time in relation to

20     1999?  Was it immediately after the war stopped and after KFOR was

21     deployed in Kosovo and Metohija or was it recently?

22        A.   Yes, when the KFOR came, when they showed us the photos of the

23     criminals, it was then that they I saw this photo for the first time.

24        Q.   When you were shown photographs of criminals, did they tell you

25     these are criminals, or did they ask you, "Are these criminals?"  And

Page 4747

 1     please tell me right away who showed you the photographs.

 2        A.   No.  They asked me whether I knew the persons in the photo.

 3        Q.   I believe that was the case.  And can you tell me who asked you

 4     that and who showed you the photographs?

 5        A.   The people who were authorised to inquire about the crimes

 6     committed in Kosova.  Of course I can't remember their names.  I can't

 7     tell you who they were, because I didn't have any power to ask them who

 8     they were, what they were doing.  In our tradition, we don't ask too many

 9     questions.

10        Q.   Could you tell me if they were Albanians or foreigners?

11        A.   They were foreigners.

12        Q.   Thank you.  My next question:  Have you ever from any NGO or any

13     other person received a book with this photograph and other photographs,

14     including the one of your neighbour who survived the massacre,

15     Hazir Berisha, as a gift?

16        A.   I don't have any -- know anything about a book.  I haven't seen

17     any book.  I don't know anything about a book.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Immediately after the events of the 14th of May --

19     or, rather, 1999, you say that together with some of your neighbours you

20     moved the bodies away so that the Serbian police or the military or

21     whatever couldn't come and remove the bodies.

22             My question to you is this:  After the 14th of May, did anyone

23     from the Serbian forces come back to the village regardless of who it

24     was, to look for the bodies of those who were killed in the houses of

25     Azem, Sadik, and Deme Gashi?  Did anyone come back after the 14th to look

Page 4748

 1     for the bodies and, if so, did anyone question the villagers about the

 2     circumstances and the whereabouts of the bodies?

 3        A.   Yes.  They came on the 16th.  They came at Ymer Kadrija's house

 4     and asked about the men of the village.  He said, I know nothing.  They

 5     came again on the 17th to know who was killed, who had remained alive.

 6     When they found out that I was alive, they came three or four days

 7     afterwards at my door and fired a Kalashnikov, but I was lucky to escape.

 8     And after that, I tried to keep a very, very low profile to hide, because

 9     I no longer trusted anyone.

10        Q.   Please tell me, do you know who came on the 16th and the

11     17th of May and on that occasion when you were fired at?  And when I say

12     that, I'm not asking whether you knew the person, but I'm asking you also

13     how many of them came.  Can you tell us that?

14        A.   Four people came the first day.  They usually came by car.  On

15     the 16th and 17th, they came in uniforms, police uniforms.  One time they

16     came in civilian clothes.

17        Q.   Can you tell me what kind of a car they had, what kind of a

18     vehicle?

19        A.   It was a private car.  They played two roles.  When NATO had its

20     strikes, they used private cars.  When -- otherwise they used official

21     cars.

22        Q.   Were those ordinary cars or jeeps, or something else, the

23     official cars?

24        A.   The ones that came to the village you mean?  Can you repeat the

25     question, please?

Page 4749

 1        Q.   You said that during the NATO air-strikes they used -- they would

 2     come in ordinary private cars, and when there were no NATO air-strikes,

 3     they came in official cars.  The official cars were those again just

 4     passenger cars with the army or military or whatever insignia, or were

 5     there -- were they some kind of special cars on the 16th, the 17th, and I

 6     don't know what May -- when you were fired and you -- at and you escaped.

 7        A.   You are mixing up a question.  When there were NATO air-strikes

 8     they used civilian cars.  Otherwise, they used official ones.  They came

 9     to the village after the massacre in civilian cars, black Mercedes cars

10     they were.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And did you after the 14th of May see Ranko Vlahovic,

12     Obrnovic, or Brajovic, any of the three?  You yourself.

13        A.   After the war, I no longer saw them.  It was impossible to see

14     them.

15        Q.   Not after the war.  Before the war ended but immediately after

16     the 14th of May, let's say until the 11th of June.  Did you see any of

17     the three?

18        A.   After that day, I no longer saw anyone, because as I said, I kept

19     away from the asphalt road because I was very much afraid.  I wanted to

20     remain alive, to be able to come here and to testify to what occurred

21     that day in my village.

22        Q.   Mr. Kelmendi, let us go back to the photograph that is on our

23     screens.  I would like to ask you how did you immediate Salipur aka Munja

24     who is depicted on this photograph?  What were the circumstances, and

25     could you tell me which person is he on this photograph out of all those

Page 4750

 1     people?

 2        A.   This one near the flag in the middle.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So under what circumstances and when did you first

 4     see him?

 5        A.   Before the war I saw him beating someone in front of my eyes in

 6     Peja.

 7        Q.   Can you tell me what were the circumstances?  Was there a war or

 8     was there no war?  Did you know him personally?

 9        A.   No, there was not a war.  It was before the war, but he -- he

10     hated Albanians.

11        Q.   And this person that he was beating, did you know that person?

12        A.   He beat him for nothing, for no reason at all, simply because he

13     was Albanian.  That person was reduced to such a state that we had to

14     give him first aid.

15        Q.   Well, what was the name of the person?  You must have memorised

16     that person's name since you went through this traumatic event.  It's a

17     major incident, and it was in peacetime.  Was he in civilian clothes when

18     he was beating that person or in a uniform?

19        A.   This is really ridiculous what you are putting to me.

20        Q.   What I'm asking you is actually quite sad, and I wouldn't agree

21     with you that it's really ridiculous.  If somebody is beating another

22     person purely because the other person is Albanian, that's really sad.

23     Well, if you want to answer my question, please do so, and then we'll

24     continue tomorrow.

25             This man Salipur Munja was he in a uniform or in civilian clothes

Page 4751

 1     when he was beating that person, and could you tell me what was the name

 2     of this person that he was beating for no reason, because as soon as you

 3     say that he was beating this person for no reason at all, it must mean

 4     that you are aware of all the circumstances surrounding this incident.

 5     That's why I'm asking you this.

 6        A.   I didn't know the person.  This occurred 15 years ago, but the

 7     later massacre in Qyshk belittled the first incident that I mentioned.

 8     I apologise for using the word "ridiculous."

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djordjevic --

10             MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honour.

11     It is time for us to take our break, and I will -- I would like to

12     continue my cross-examination tomorrow.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Kelmendi, we must stop now because another

14     trial will be conducted in this courtroom, so we must adjourn, and we'll

15     ask you to come back tomorrow morning at 9.00 to continue.  A court

16     officer will give you further assistance when we adjourn.  So we will see

17     you again tomorrow morning, and we now adjourn.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

20                           May, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.