1 Wednesday, 27 May 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE PARKER: The affirmation you gave to tell the truth still
9 applies today.
10 Mr. Djordjevic.
11 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before
12 we continue with cross-examination, could we please see the sketch drawn
13 by the witness which is P828, if I'm not mistaken. Thank you.
14 WITNESS: BAJRAM BUCALIU [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Djordjevic: [Continued]
17 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, you spoke about the Muslim priest in your evidence.
18 You said his name was Rifat Neziraj tell me please, is this man still
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where does he live and work nowadays?
22 A. He continues to live in the old village. He is now an elderly
23 man, no longer working.
24 Q. Now, please tell us when he informed about the killing of the
25 Zeka family: Habib, Faruk, and Hemo. Did he tell you how he had come to
1 know about that?
2 A. When he came to my house, he found me in the yard, and I noticed
3 that he looked extremely worried. I asked him what was wrong with him,
4 and he said Bajram, They killed Emin and his two sons. I said, Please,
5 maybe it's not true, let not the others hear this because they --
6 everybody will panic. Please don't say this, it may not be true. But he
7 said, Yes, it is.
8 In fact, Hadja, the mom lives beyond -- a bit beyond the Zeka
9 family, and he said that he was coming from there, he said that
10 everything was true. I asked him whether he told anybody else, and he
11 said, Yes, I told another neighbour.
12 And I, in fact, tried to keep it hidden so that people wouldn't
13 panic. In fact, the news had been spreading around very, very quickly.
14 And as I said later, at around 1.00 people started converging out of
15 fear. And that's the way everything occurred.
16 Q. Tell me, please, was it your impression that Rifat was an
17 eye-witness, or is it something that you don't know anything about?
18 A. No, he had not been an eye-witness to the murder, but he had been
19 in proximity to the Zeka family and spoken to his family members, and it
20 was they who told him that the murder had occurred on the night before,
21 and so on and so forth.
22 Q. Thank you. We have here your sketch, but not the last version
23 that was admitted into evidence where you marked the houses with an A and
24 a B, the houses of the Zeka family. I think that is Exhibit P127. Just
25 a minute, please.
1 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please zoom in the
2 one D127 with an A and a B. Just that one, please. We don't need the
3 other one.
4 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, please tell me in which house did Emin and his two
5 sons Habib and Faruk live? You said that the Zeka family lived in two
6 houses, now, in which of those two houses Emin lived with his two sons,
7 and where did this happen?
8 A. Emin and his two sons lived in this place marked by a B, whereas
9 the murder happened on the other side where the families had been
10 converged. Because as I said before, families tried to group together in
11 support of each other and out of fear too. So the murder occurred at the
12 house of the neighbour on the other side at the house of someone called
14 Q. What was Halit's last name?
15 A. If I'm not mistaken, the surname was Fazliu. I'm not entirely
16 sure, but I think it was Fazliu.
17 Q. Could you draw on this sketch the location of his house, and
18 could you mark it with a C, please.
19 A. It's approximately here, in between the two Zeka families on the
20 opposite side of the road in between the two family compounds.
21 Q. So this is where the people assembled; right? Would you agree
22 with me?
23 A. Yes, they went to Halit's house. As I was told, it was
24 approximately 30 people who had gathered there.
25 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, tell me, please, did you hear something about the
1 circumstances surrounding the murder? We heard from you that you had
2 heard that it was three paramilitaries who had committed the murders, but
3 can we hear it from you now given that there were so many witnesses
4 there. What did you hear from them?
5 A. Yes, as I said, I heard it from people who survived this murder.
6 The other sons of Emin who are alive to this day, and the head of the
7 family Halit who was also present. They told me that at about five to
8 8.00 when the electricity was cut, three paramilitaries entered and as
9 people were seated they were ordered to kneel and without any further
10 warning they started shooting each one of them using a pistol.
11 Emin and two sons said that he was intent on continuing the
12 executions, but at that stage somebody called Mile entered and said "Stop
13 it now; are you going to kill everyone?" And that's how he stopped.
14 One of Emin's son raised his head to see what was happening, and
15 at that stage he got hit by the butt of the automatic rifle and fainted,
16 and this happened in the presence of his mother. However, he was able to
18 The other three, those who were killed, were left behind, but
19 they returned half an hour later and ordered the family -- took the
20 bodies away and told them to clean up the place so that nobody would be
21 able to learn what had happened, and these three bodies have yet to be
22 retrieved. Nobody knows where they are.
23 Q. I didn't quite understand you. Who removed the three bodies?
24 A. The bodies were taken by the perpetrators of the murder.
25 Q. Tell me, please, who lived in the house marked with B?
1 A. At the house marked with a B lived Emin and his sons, as well as
2 his close family.
3 Q. I think that you said, yes, they lived in the B house. And who
4 lived in the house marked with A?
5 A. At the house marked with an A, there were the Zeka cousins of
6 Emin, Hasan and his sons, as well as Aslan along with his wife and his
7 children. They are all with the surname of Zeka, they are relatives of
9 Q. Was it Hasan and Safete Zeka who lived in that house and Hasan's
10 wife Fatime? Are these the people that you said went missing and were
11 later found mutilated? Is that the people that you are referring to?
12 A. Yes, I'm referring to them. There's four people who were
13 kidnapped by the same paramilitary forces after the murder. So they went
14 after the murder and took Hasan and Aslan alongside their wives; they
15 were kidnapped. And at the end of the war, about two months after the
16 end of the war, but I can't be certain about the date, they were found
17 massacred and mutilated in the Prelez quarters where the headquarters of
18 the military forces were located. The bodies were found in a cesspit,
20 Q. Are you referring to Hasan, Aslan, and their wives; am I right?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Let's just clarify something else. What happened to Safete?
23 A. Safete was Aslan's wife.
24 Q. It seemed to me that you mentioned that name in addition to there
25 being a woman called Safete, it seemed to me that you mentioned that
1 there was also a son called Safete, but I seem to have misunderstood you.
2 Thank you.
3 Did you eye-witness the murder of any member of the Zeka family?
4 A. No, I did not see the murder of these members with my own eyes,
5 but there are people who live to this day who were eye-witnesses.
6 Q. Tell me, please, now that you were mentioning eye-witnesses, you
7 said that it was Halit Fazliu in whose house people gathered. Now, can
8 you give me any other names of those 30 who were present at the location
9 where this took place?
10 A. One of them was Halit, the owner of the house, with all his
11 family, all his family members. I don't know how many there were. I
12 know that he lives in the UK
13 there. And then we have Emin's wife, the mother of his sons, and then
14 Emin's brother who lives to this day, and a large number of other family
15 members who are also alive, then Hasan's and Aslan's children.
16 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, yes, I understood what you were describing, but I
17 wanted you to give us some names in addition to Halit Fazliu's name.
18 Just give us some other names, first and last names.
19 A. I don't know what to say because Halit Fazliu's family has left
20 the place about ten years ago. They don't live there. I'm saying that
21 it's his wife, his sons. Then Emin's sons, and then Hasan's and Aslan's
22 sons too.
23 Q. Yes, we have understood that. If you don't know the names,
24 that's fine. Just tell me that you can't enumerate any other names and
25 it will be fine. I wanted to hear the name of at least one son of the
1 Zeka family who lives there, or the name of the wife, if you know.
2 A. I am sorry. Of course I know the name, I just recall it -- I
3 can't recall it just now, but if it were to come to me, I will mention
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu.
6 Tell me, please, how did it come about that it was decided that
7 all, absolutely all residents should leave the village and go towards
8 Urosevac? How did this come about?
9 A. I said it earlier that after learning that Emin and his two sons
10 had been murdered, people got really worried. And in addition to the
11 torture and the intimidation by the paramilitary forces as well as the
12 murders, there was nothing left to do but to try and flee our homes.
13 As I said it earlier, my own house is in the middle of the
14 village, which means that that's where people converged on, but I've seen
15 people instinctively converge there in a meadow right in front of it.
16 And at that stage even my late wife said, Bajram, what are we waiting
17 for? At which point I told her, Take the children and join the other
18 people. I could not leave my elderly mother alone, so I decided to stay
19 and I did stay a while with my mother, whilst my wife and children joined
20 the crowd. And they proceeded in a valley near my house with the whole
21 crowd instinctively.
22 It was a very short interval during which everybody in the
23 village decided to abandon their homes. I stayed for a period of about
24 two and a half hours or so. However, after pressure from my mother
25 saying, Please go my dear son because they will kill you if they were to
1 find you, I relented and took a bicycle and went and joined my family.
2 Q. When you told your wife and children to leave the village and to
3 go with the other people, I take that that was your decision for the
4 reasons that you gave. But as for the entire village, who took that
5 decision because it was an organised effort, and it couldn't be that
6 everybody all of a sudden got the same idea in their heads to go to
7 Urosevac? Now, who organised this because it involved some 600 residents
8 or so?
9 A. I said entirely that I'm not aware of who might have organised
10 it. In fact, I remain convinced that nobody did it. I'm quite sure that
11 it was out of fear, just news of a murder sufficed for everybody to take
12 the decision to go and save himself and their children. I don't think
13 there was any organisation whatsoever. I think it was out of instinct
14 that people started gathering together and fleeing away.
15 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, you told us, and you testified about the ugly events
16 involving Serbian forces preceding this event, not only in your village
17 but throughout Kosovo. You said you watched foreign news and TV
18 programs, heard various testimonies, and heard KLA members speak on tell
19 vision. Where did the villagers get the idea they would be safer in
20 Urosevac than in their own village where the same Serbian forces in
21 Urosevac like in Gnjilane, like in Pec, and throughout Kosovo? Where did
22 they get the idea they would be safe somewhere else?
23 A. Frankly speaking, we thought our village was one of the safest
24 place, because we had many neighbours who were Serbs. And we had spoken
25 to our Serbian neighbours who had reassured us that nothing was going to
1 happen to us. So you stay behind and nothing is going to happen to us.
2 So that's what we thought in our village. And as a matter of fact, two
3 of my cousins from Ferizaj came and stayed in my village, i.e., before
4 these military forces entered. They stayed there for four to five days,
5 again thinking that our village was safer on account of the mixed
6 population. We thought it was a safe place. That was the reason why I
7 did not abandon our village.
8 However, after what occurred, there was no other option left open
9 to us but to leave the village, and we had no other outlet but towards
11 At that stage, I knew that there were trains running even though
12 I know that there are people were not able to take the trains and there
13 were families who were left in Ferizaj and the surrounding areas.
14 However, the majority of these people from the village, as I said it
15 earlier, did board these trains and this way left Ferizaj and Kosova.
16 Q. You did say that. I want to know why you thought Urosevac was
17 safer than your village, or any other place in Kosovo for that matter?
18 A. In fact, at that stage we were not seeking out safer places as
19 such, what happened is that people instinctively left their own village.
20 What we thought, however, was that should we be forced to flee our
21 villages, and we had made preparation with our tractors and so on and so
22 forth, we had made plans to leave our own homes and proceed towards
23 either Macedonia
24 to our village in fact had been emptied by these forces at this stage, so
25 we were fully prepared.
1 Q. I understand that, but still, you left the village on your own.
2 You did not do it on direct orders from members of any Serbian unit
3 either regular army, paramilitary, volunteer, or other. You said you got
4 up and left instinctively. It's hard for me to believe, though, that 600
5 people left just like that, instinctively, without any organisation.
6 Therefore, I ask you again, and please tell me, did any of the
7 Serb forces that I just mentioned drive you out of your village or made
8 you leave by direct orders? I don't mean the instigation in the form of
9 incidents of killings and such, because that happened throughout Kosovo.
10 A. No, we were not given any order to leave the village. On the
11 contrary, these forces had told us not to leave the village. They told
12 us to stay there with them just in case Clinton decided to use his
13 infantry in Kosova. They said that we would serve as their protection
14 from these infantry forces. So it was quite the contrary. They said to
15 us that you are not allowed to leave. You will stay here with us.
16 Q. If that is so, if there had been these killings you talk about
17 that had started, then how did you manage to leave the village despite
18 this explicit prohibition by the Serbian paramilitaries?
19 A. Frankly speaking, it is surprising. As I said, some people had
20 remained in the village. I personally thought that these forces would
21 capture these people. And I was quite surprised how these people were
22 not noticed by the forces. As I said, there's a valley, there are
23 meadows around my house, so I really don't know how it happened that the
24 forces didn't see these people who had remained behind.
25 When I passed by these houses where the forces were stationed
1 with my bike, I thought I would be stopped by them and captured by them.
2 I passed by with my bike. The gate was open. I could see the forces
3 there in the courtyard of that house drinking. I really would not be
4 able to say whether they didn't see me or they decided not to stop me.
5 That I don't know. But I just passed there, I saw them in the courtyard,
6 and proceeded towards my house.
7 Q. Tell me, were you not very afraid to send away your wife and
8 children in such a situation, what made you send away -- your women and
9 children away while believing that all of you who stayed behind would be
10 arrested and God knows what else?
11 A. I already told you that everything happened very fast. My wife,
12 as soon as she saw people gathering there and fleeing, she said to me,
13 What are we waiting for? And that's when I told her to get the children
14 ready and join the crowd. I couldn't personally leave my old and sick
15 mother behind, so I just told her to leave with the children. I said to
16 her, If God's willing, we will see each other again. It all happened
17 very fast. There's no time to do any thinking. This is the reality
18 prevailing at the time.
19 Q. Still I do not quite understand the motives that drove everyone
20 in this combination of circumstances, but let it be, I will not question
21 you anymore about it.
22 Tell me, how many people left the village at that time, and how
23 many stayed?
24 A. As I said, about 500 or 600 people left the village that day.
25 Some two or three families that lived near the headquarters of these
1 Chetnik forces remained in the village. I don't know why, whether they
2 didn't dare leave because of the forces or they decided to stay there,
3 but as I said, the rest of the village left.
4 Q. How many people stayed approximately, if you know?
5 A. As I said, in addition to the Serb families that remained in the
6 village, they did not leave the village, they remained there. There were
7 three or four Albanian families that lived near the headquarters of the
8 forces. Maybe altogether 30 or 40 people.
9 Q. Including Serbs, or only Albanians? 30 or 40 Albanians? I want
10 to know about the ethnic Albanian population that stayed in the village.
11 A. As I said, there were three or four Albanian families that
12 remained in the village with a total of 30 or 40 members.
13 Q. Thank you. It's clearer now. Mr. Bucaliu, did you know any of
14 the people among the paramilitaries in the village? We are talking about
15 the period from the 2nd of April onwards. From the 2nd of April you were
16 talking about the regular army and then later those people who presented
17 themselves as paramilitaries appeared. Did you know any of those men?
18 Would they have been, perhaps, from Urosevac or some of the villages
19 around? Did you recognise anyone among those men?
20 A. No, personally, I didn't know any of them. They were unfamiliar
21 faces to me. They stated themselves that they came from Sombor and
22 Vojvodina. They were paramilitary forces --
23 Q. We heard that, let's not waste time on something we know. You
24 told us that around 1.000 Albanians lived in the village before 1999.
25 Tell me, how many ethnic Albanians live now in Staro Selo? Is it the
1 same number? Higher? Lower?
2 A. There hasn't been a census, so I can only give you an approximate
3 figure. Some families have left, some others have settled in the
4 village, so more or less it's the same figure, about 1.000.
5 Q. Thank you. Talking about your village, you said Serbs and
6 Montenegrins did not return to Staro Selo, they no longer live there. Do
7 you know the reason? Did you ever hear from any of your former
9 A. Yes, when I went back after the war, I didn't see my Serb
10 neighbours there. They had already left. I returned quite late to
11 Kosova on the 6th of July. I learned that they had left in various
12 directions. I do have contacts with them every now and then. We speak
13 on the phone. And they said that the reason why they don't want to come
14 back is because they don't feel comfortable.
15 Q. What about their houses? Are they undamaged, unopened, unlooted?
16 A. With the exception of one house which was next to my house, the
17 remaining were demolished, were damaged.
18 Q. And that happened after June 1999; am I right?
19 A. Yes, that's what I heard. As I said, when I went back to my
20 village, the Serb families were no longer there. I learned that their
21 houses were demolished after 12th of June, 1999.
22 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, when we are talking about these paramilitaries,
23 these volunteers, whatever you call them, the Serbian-Chetnik movement,
24 the radicals, you say they were present in your village and that at the
25 same time there were olive-green tanks. However in the supplemental
1 statement you gave to this Tribunal in August 2006, you say you don't
2 remember that you had ever stated in your statement of 1999 that you had
3 seen tanks.
4 I have read the transcripts of all the previous cases, and I
5 didn't notice that any of my colleagues had asked you about that, but I
6 would like you to clarify.
7 A. I'm sorry, but I didn't understand your question. As I mentioned
8 yesterday, I hear two voices in the background. So I have difficulty
9 sometimes to understand you.
10 Q. I understand you perfectly, because I have the same problem
11 myself very often. I will speak more slowly. I said that speaking of
12 the paramilitaries in 1999, you mentioned that at the same time there
13 were tanks present, green tanks. However, in your supplemental statement
14 from 2006, you said you don't remember mentioning tanks being present in
15 the village at the same time as the paramilitaries.
16 I'm asking you now what is correct, what you said in 2006 or that
17 tanks were there in the village at the same time as the paramilitaries?
18 Which of the two is true?
19 A. What I'm saying is that the paramilitaries didn't have tanks. I
20 heard that there were tanks in Prelez neighbourhood where their
21 headquarters was. The tanks had been hidden. It is true that after the
22 war we came across tanks that had been destroyed there in Prelez
23 neighbourhood. The paramilitaries in the village didn't have tanks.
24 They used civilian cars, but they didn't have tanks. It is true,
25 however, that there were tanks stationed up there in Prelez
2 Q. It's true that you mentioned tanks when you said that the Serbian
3 regular army took over the village; we've discussed that before. So now
4 we have a completely clear picture. There were no tanks in the
5 possession of the paramilitary formations; they did not use them.
6 Let me ask you something else: Who is the person you refer to as
7 Captain Sima? Who is he?
8 A. Captain Sima, in my opinion, was member of the regular army. He
9 was stationed in the headquarters in Prelez neighbourhood. I believe
10 that there were regular forces stationed there too. This is my
11 assumption based on Sima who resembled a person belonging to the regular
12 forces. An officer from the regular military forces.
13 Q. Yes, that's how you describe him. Did anyone have any problem,
14 any unpleasantness directly from him? You or anyone else in the village?
15 A. No. Personally, I didn't suffer any problems from him, and I
16 didn't hear that others suffered any problems from him.
17 Q. Tell me, who is Musa, the notorious Muslim?
18 A. Musa and Mila were members the paramilitary forces and called
19 themselves leaders of these forces. I think that Musa was a pseudonym
20 that he used. He looked terrible. He would say that he was a butcher
21 who enjoyed slaughtering people. Mile or Mila was thinner than Musa.
22 Together they would roam about in the village and declare themselves as
23 leaders of the paramilitary [Realtime transcript read in error
24 "family-tree"] group.
25 Q. Have you heard that Musa killed anyone in the village by slitting
1 their throat, or did anything of that kind?
2 A. No, I didn't hear that he slaughtered anyone, but I did see him
3 slaughtering animals with my own eyes.
4 Q. Yes, I talked to you about the people, you said that he
5 slaughtered and cut up, carved up a bull very professionally so he must
6 have been a butcher.
7 Now, about this captain, you said he intercepted these three men
8 outside of Halit Fazliu's house, that is, in the space between the three
9 houses. He stopped them from doing what they had set out to do. You say
10 he was present at the time. And then you somehow link him up with the
11 fact that when Aslan and his wife and the other person whose name I
12 forget now who were later found mutilated, you say, near Prelez, you
13 somehow link Mile with that. Do you have specific knowledge that Mile
14 was involved in the liquidation of the remainder of the Zeka family?
15 A. I don't have any specific knowledge that Mile was involved. The
16 survivors who were there when it all occurred told me that they had
17 recognised Mile, that is to say, that after sometime Mile entered there
18 and said to the others, Stop, do you want to kill them all? So in a way,
19 Mile saved the lives of the surviving people.
20 Q. Thank you, things are much clearer now. You said also the
21 trenches were being dug by young men on the orders of the paramilitaries.
22 You said it had something to do with preparations for the ground attack
23 about NATO. You said that happened when the paramilitaries first came
24 into the village.
25 Did the paramilitaries come to the village on several occasions?
1 What do you mean we you say they first arrived? Did they come and then
2 go away and then come back again? Because that's not quite clear from
3 that part of your statement. I'm talking about your statement from 1999,
4 10, 11 -- sorry, paragraphs 9 through 12. When you say "when the
5 paramilitaries first came," does that mean there were other arrivals?
6 A. I don't know how it is stated there. I didn't say when they
7 first came. They were there the whole time. They came on the
8 5th of April, and were there until we left. Maybe there was a
9 misunderstanding. Maybe I said "when I first came across them." But as
10 for the forces, I can tell you that they were there the whole time, from
11 the 5th of April when they settled there until the time we left.
12 Q. You see, Mr. Bucaliu, there is no more misunderstanding now.
13 Everything is clear.
14 In paragraph 18 of your 1999 statement, you mention that Serb
15 policemen brought Serbian families to Urosevac, and that they escorted
16 them. Do you know where these families came from? That's my first
17 question. Those Serbian families that had left Urosevac.
18 A. What I said is the following: When I tried to board the train in
19 order to leave Ferizaj, I opened the door to the car and the policeman
20 asked me like, What are you doing? I told him I want to get on. He told
21 me to wait, and at that moment in time I saw Serb families coming off the
22 train. There were men, women, children. I didn't know where they came
23 from. I didn't know them. And after they got off the -- only after they
24 got off the train, we were allowed to board it.
25 Q. Well, I think that that is quite normal. People need to come out
1 so that people can come in.
2 Now, tell me, please, why did police escort them, accompany them?
3 A. That I wouldn't be able to tell you. The police were on board
4 when we continued towards Hani i Elezit. They were with us on the train.
5 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, when you reached the Macedonian border - I'm now
6 speaking of the 16th, the day when you managed to cross into Macedonia
7 so the 16th of April - did they ask for your IDs, your passports, or any
8 other documents? Did you have to produce those documents at the time?
9 Did the Serbian authorities ask you for that? I'm now referring to
10 police, because police is in charge of checking people's documents when
11 they're crossing border. But it's possible that somebody else could have
12 asked for those documents, say, the army, paramilitaries, anybody else.
13 A. No, nobody asked us to produce any kinds of documents in the
14 process of crossing into Macedonia
15 Q. I do not wish to ask you anything else concerning that because
16 you say that nobody confiscated any documents from you.
17 Now, when you reached the boarder, you crossed into Macedonia
18 and given that on the 15th you didn't manage to enter Macedonia, your
19 colleague Vule, the railway employee who was your friend, told you that
20 you couldn't cross on that day into Macedonia because Macedonian
21 authorities wouldn't let you in.
22 Now, tell me, please, on the following day when you did manage to
23 cross into Macedonia
24 why the entry was denied to you on the previous day? I'm now referring
25 to any information that you could have received from the relevant
1 Macedonian authorities.
2 A. No, we didn't inquire as to why we weren't allowed in the day
3 before. We just did not see that kind of argument reasonable. So I
4 don't know why we were accepted and why we were not, so I do not have any
5 further information on that.
6 Q. That is sufficient. Thank you. Mr. Bucaliu, we have heard from
7 you that three Albanian families remained in Staro Selo. Did your mother
8 remain in the village? Your mother who was ill.
9 A. I have explained that in my statement but should you see it
10 necessary, I can tell you how my mother was able to make it. She did not
11 stay. After a certain period of time, after 5.00 p.m., she was able to
12 flee the village. At that time my father was not in, however, after I
13 left the village, I met my father at the entrance to Ferizaj. I told him
14 what had happened. I told him that mother had been imploring me to tell
15 her to return and stay with her because she cannot walk and get out, but
16 my father had -- regardless of the difficulty, he wanted to stay with his
17 life-long partner. So he returned and stayed in the village.
18 I told my father to go and besiege of his Serbian friend to
19 transport them with his vehicle out of the village, perhaps tell them
20 that she's ill and she needs to see the doctor. So that's what my father
21 did. He went to the next door neighbour and asked him two or three
22 times, but this neighbour said please do not do this to me, I could not,
23 I could be killed myself if I were to do this. So he didn't do anything.
24 In the meantime, my brother, who alongside 25 other people who
25 were opening those trenches, returned after 5.00 when they were allowed
1 by the forces to do that. So my brother managed to get home. And when
2 he saw that nobody was there, just my mother, he inquired as to what had
3 happened. My mother explained to him. At the time, there was another of
4 my uncles present as well as Hadja, Imam, and his wife. In addition to
5 another elderly woman who was disabled and couldn't walk. So in sum
6 there were six people present over there. There was no other option
8 But my brother Fadil was ordered by my father to start the
9 tractor, which they did; they boarded the tractor and they were able in
10 the evening hours to be able, my mother, my brother, and my mother -- and
11 my father, forgive me, to flee the village. So they were able to flee
12 with that tractor. That's what I heard. I didn't meet them.
13 Q. But you certainly talked to them. And nobody stopped them from
14 leaving the village, did they? even though as you say, paramilitaries
15 said that nobody could leave the village because they needed them as a
16 shield when NATO infantry arrived, but they let them through on a
17 tractor; right?
18 A. Yes, that's exactly what's happened. It is true that even at
19 that stage nobody stopped them.
20 Q. That is quite clear. Now, tell me, please, the ones that
21 remained in the village, did they survive? Did something happen to them?
22 A. With the exception of those two who had been kidnapped, Hasan,
23 Aslan, and their wives, as well as one of my neighbours Fehmi and his
24 wife - who, as I said, the Zeka family -- the four Zeka family members
25 were found massacred in the Prelez neighbourhood. Then Fehmi and his
1 wife who lived next to my Serbian neighbour and who had promised that he
2 would look after them, if we were there nothing was going to happen to
3 them and so on and so forth, but we found them burned inside their own
4 house, i.e., we found parts of their skeleton, their bones, you know,
5 charred in the house. I'm talking about Fehmi and his own wife.
6 Q. I'm asking you about the people who remained in the village after
7 your departure. When I say "your" I mean the entire village, the entire
8 village which left. Now, those that remained - and there were 30 to 40
9 of them, in total, three families - did any of them come to any harm
10 after your departure? I'm just asking about those who remained, I'm not
11 asking about the Zeka family, we've heard everything about them. And
12 this other man and his wife, you talked about that as well.
13 I'm just asking about people who remained after your departure.
14 And as far as I could gather, those were the families who lived in the
15 part called Prelez who were apparently very close to those Serbian
16 paramilitary forces.
17 A. Let me repeat. After we left, Fehmi, who was very old, and his
18 wife also stayed behind. The others all survive; they live to this day.
19 With the exception of Fehmi and his wife, and the four Zekas, they are
20 also part of that group that stayed behind, we found Fehmi and his wife
21 burned to death in their own houses. And this was three or four months
22 after the war when we returned, so only the charred bodies of these
23 people were found.
24 Q. Other than the charred remains, the remains of Fehmi and his
25 wife, do you know anything else about how they lost their lives? Did you
1 hear anything? Because clearly you were not present at the time.
2 A. No, it is actually true that we weren't present, all I said is
3 that we found their charred remains. I asked my neighbour who was very,
4 very close, as to what had happened. He declined to tell me. He said,
5 They've set fire to the houses, but I don't know what happened. Even
6 Momir refused to tell me what had happened. Whether he knows or not, I
7 don't know.
8 Q. Momir is your Serb neighbour. I gather that based on his first
9 name. Do you remember his last name?
10 A. Yes, Momcilo Perovcevic.
11 THE INTERPRETERS: Forgive me. Correction from the interpreter:
13 Q. Would you please be kind enough and repeat it clearly,
14 Mr. Bucaliu, because the interpreters didn't hear the name.
15 A. Yes. Momcilo Tepavcevic.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bucaliu, in your statement on the
17 29th of August, 2001, which also has the date of the
18 31st of August, 2001, this is your second statement. In paragraph 2 you
19 said that you expected revenge. Why did you expect revenge, or rather,
20 who expected revenge and why? Why did you think that there would be a
21 revenge? What did you have in mind when you said that?
22 A. It's not that I expected it. It actually occurred. We expected
23 some revenge to occur because we knew that Serbian forces would have been
24 unable to withstand a NATO attack and as a result take revenge upon us.
25 And immediately after the NATO air-strikes, the start -- shooting started
1 using the Pragas and this was in the first hour after the NATO bombs
2 started falling. So we had occasion to experience revenge by the Serbian
3 military and paramilitary forces, and this happened on the first night,
4 so revenge started on the very first night.
5 Q. All right. They were attacked by NATO, but why you? Why you?
6 A. Because we were the weaker party. We were on the ground. We
7 were on the ground. The NATO forces were shooting from the air even
8 though the Serbs used their anti-aircraft weapons, they couldn't do
9 anything against them, so they started shooting against us in the
10 [indiscernible]. They often used to say that let the guys from above
11 come to you -- come to save you, and by that they were referring to NATO.
12 Q. All right. You are Albanians, they are Serbs, but there are also
13 other ethnicities living in Serbia
14 so on. Why would they take revenge against you, Albanians, and not the
15 others? They were attacked by the greatest military power in the world,
16 now why revenge against Albanians? Had Albanians done something evil?
17 What was actually the matter? What would make the Serbs take revenge
18 precisely against Albanians? Because a revenge is taken against the
19 person who has done something to you, so can you please explain that.
20 A. I'm not asserting here that it was only the Albanians who
21 suffered at the hands of Serbian forces. There were others as well. But
22 certainly the Romans, Bosniaks, and there were quite a few amongst them
23 who suffered, so I'm not asserting here that it was only the Albanians
24 who suffered.
25 Q. All right. That's clear. Thank you. Mr. Bucaliu, would you
1 agree with me, you spoke of the 24th of March when the bombing started,
2 and you said that Zika Ilic head of the station told you not to come to
3 work, or, rather, you came to work and he told you you can go back home.
4 And apparently this same thing happened to all other employees.
5 Now would you agree with me that in addition to Albanian
6 employees starting on the 24th of March when the NATO bombing started,
7 many employees, and I'm not referring to railway employees in Urosevac,
8 I'm referring to employees who worked in other companies and institutions
9 and so on. Due to state of war that had been declared immediately left
10 their previous positions and were given other assignments. I'm now
11 referring to the men, and these other assignments had something to do
12 with the state of emergency, state of war, and that most of them were
13 given assignments either with the police, with the army,
14 Territorial Defence, or civilian protection. This applied not only to
15 Albanians but to Serbs and everybody else. Would you agree with me? So
16 not just to Serbs but everybody else you mentioned, Bosniaks, Muslims,
17 Egyptians, Roma?
18 A. I said that we were forced out of our jobs. We were not assigned
19 other duties, not in the Territorial Defence or whatever you mentioned,
20 because Albanians were not trusted. And I don't think that there were
21 any Albanians who were part of the civilian or Territorial Defences. We
22 were simply told to leave our jobs. Maybe they didn't even trust us to
23 let us continue with our jobs, but that's exactly what the chief of that
24 station, Zika, told me. He said Albanians can no longer continue
25 working. You can report for work, but you will not be allowed to
1 continue working.
2 Q. We will agree that the war had begun; right?
3 A. Yes, we can say that. If one said that bombing from the air has
4 started, one can easily conclude that war has started.
5 Q. Now, we go back to what I asked you a bit earlier, why did they
6 mistrust the Albanians at that particular time? I'm not referring to the
7 period ten years prior to that, 20 years prior to that. Why did they not
8 trust Albanians at that particular time? What was the reason? When you
9 say they didn't trust them, you are probably referring to Serbs, the
10 Serbs are the "they." Right?
11 A. I said it earlier, that relations between Albanians and the Serbs
12 started cooling down from the 1990s, from the early 1990s. With the
13 forcible constitutional amendments of 1989, i.e., the
14 Constitution of Kosova, the relations started freezing in the ties even
15 and that was noticeable amongst neighbours, amongst colleagues, and so
17 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, you said that you work at the railroad to this day,
18 that you probably resumed your work there when you came back in
19 July 1999, I assume, and you live nearby your work, but you also said
20 something important that I wish to go back to. You apparently started
21 working in 1987, and you worked all the way up until the day when you met
22 Zika when NATO started bombing and when they told you, From this day on
23 you need not come back to work again.
24 Now, Mr. Bucaliu, in your 1999 statement and also just now, you
25 said that the relations were disrupted between the Serbs and the
1 Albanians, and then you explained this by invoking constitutional
2 amendments. Now, would I be right if I were to say that at least
3 three-quarters of the employees at the railways or railroad was of
4 Albanian ethnicity up until 1999? Would I be right in saying that? You
5 mentioned figures, and now I want you to talk in fractions, I mean, I
6 mentioned three-quarters.
7 A. It could approximately be true, this figure of three-quarters or
8 a third, or three-quarters, it could be approximately true. So
9 three-quarters were Albanians, I think so.
10 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, starting in 1990 onwards, you said that the
11 relations deteriorated, and I see that still the majority of employees
12 were Albanians. Did you and your Albanian colleagues sign some kind of
13 loyalty statements affirming loyalty to the state of Serbia in order to
14 keep their jobs?
15 A. No, me and my colleagues did not have to sign any loyalty
16 document, and we kept our jobs. We were asked to sign it. We did not --
17 we were not forced out, but there were other people, however, who were
18 asked to sign it, who refused to do it, and who lost their jobs.
19 Q. People who worked at the railway?
20 A. Yes, yes. At the directorate level because the main directorate
21 of the railways of Kosova was at Fushe Kosova where a large number of
22 people were employed. So at the central directorate there were, and I
23 could be wrong because a long time had elapsed, there were about 130
24 people who refused to sign these loyalty documents to the state
25 of Serbia
1 Q. Then I can conclude that you did sign such a statement and kept
2 your job. If that was at the level of --
3 JUDGE PARKER: That's not what he said, Mr. Djordjevic. He said
4 he was asked but he was not forced to and he was not removed from his
5 job, but others at a more senior level, at the directorate level, were
6 forced from their job.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am afraid that
8 there was an interpretation problem. I will have to repeat my question.
9 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, would I be right in saying that at the directorate
10 level or at the management level of the Kosovo railways, a request came
11 from there for Albanian employees to sign such a statement?
12 A. It is true that this request was made, and not only at the
13 directorate level but at every single employee of the railway, so every
14 one of us was requested to sign loyalty to the state of Serbia. But the
15 small stations along the railways did not sign it, and we did not suffer
16 any consequences. At least in the Ferizaj area. Nobody lost their jobs
17 as a result of not signing this statement. However, at the directorate
18 level there were 130 people or more who lost their jobs on account of the
19 fact that they refused to sign this statement.
20 Q. When you say "at the level of the directorate," you mean only
21 Kosovo Polje, or you mean other towns and cities as well?
22 A. No, only at Kosova Polje at Fushe Kosova because the directorate
23 was stationed there.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
25 stop my cross-examination for the break at this moment and to tender the
1 map that the supplemental witness marked as evidence because now we have
2 a mark C on it. And I would have another half an hour after the break.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: And that, Your Honours, will be assigned D00128.
6 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE PARKER: While we are correcting, at page 15, line 17 of
8 the transcript appears the phrase "family tree group." It should be
9 paramilitary group.
10 We have, Mr. Djordjevic, been extremely patient with your
11 cross-examination. We have allowed questions that have very little to do
12 with the issues in the case to go unnoticed. It has gone on for a
13 considerable time. We would suggest that you ought to try and finish in
14 no more than a quarter of an hour after we resume. If we are to maintain
15 a reasonable pace with this trial, which I hope you realise is because
16 principally of your client. This trial could be allowed to stretch out
17 for a year and a half or two years, or it could be finished much more
18 quickly. We are trying to finish it as quickly as possible, as long as
19 your client is allowed a proper opportunity to present his Defence. And
20 for that we need the cooperation of counsel, and we need to have the
21 questioning more confined so that it deals only with the important
23 I mentioned this sort of thing several times. I suspect we are
24 going to have to become much more insistent about timing unless counsel
25 respond by being, themselves, much more disciplined in their questions.
1 We will adjourn now and resume at 5 minutes past 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djordjevic.
7 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
8 try to stay within the time-limit because I also believe it is in the
9 interests of our client, but of course without infringing on his right to
10 a proper defence.
11 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, please tell me, what was the level of educational
12 attainment of the employees in the railways in Urosevac?
13 A. I don't know what to say, but usually the proper persons were
14 employed at the right post. If a certain post required a high level of
15 education, of course they recruited the relevant person.
16 Q. That's exactly what I wanted to ask you, because you told us that
17 it was always Serbs who occupied managerial positions. Were there any
18 ethnic Albanians in Urosevac who had higher levels of education, who were
19 heads of stations and such?
20 A. Yes, there were such persons in Ferizaj. To be a responsible --
21 to be a manager, you simply had to have a vocational training like the
22 case was with me and some other colleagues.
23 Q. Thank you. You mention 1990 as the critical year when the
24 relations between Serbs and Albanians deteriorated. Mr. Bucaliu, was the
25 reason for that the adoption of the new constitution of the
1 Republic of Serbia
2 A. Yes, that was one other reason, reasons. The constitutional
3 amendments that was -- were another reasons for the cooling off of
4 relations. Because after that, some rights that we enjoyed prior to the
5 1990s were stripped of us after these amendments took place.
6 Q. I don't mind that you make that mistake because you are not a
7 lawyer. It was in fact much earlier than 1990.
8 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the
9 Trial Chamber, since this has not been admitted yet, that the entire
10 document of the constitution of Serbia
11 65 ter number 1021 be admitted.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00129, Your Honours.
14 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order to
15 properly understand what happened and what the witness is talking about,
16 we have to cast our minds back to 1974 when the constitution was in place
17 under which Albanians had much broader rights. Of course, this will be
18 the subject of deliberations of this Trial Chamber, and that's why I
19 would like to tender also the constitution from 1974, which was a federal
20 constitution. 65 ter number 1048. Sorry, 1848. Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Bucaliu --
22 THE REGISTRAR: And that, Your Honours, will be assigned D00130.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Thank you.
24 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, did you familiarise yourself in any practical way
1 with the provisions of the constitution from 1974?
2 A. No, personally I was not familiar with the entire constitution,
3 but Kosova had its own constitution. I'm talking of that constitution
4 and not about the constitution of Serbia or of Yugoslavia
5 relation to some of my personal rights, I had information, but I was
6 talking about the amendment made to the constitution of Kosova. I wasn't
7 talking about the amendments made to the constitution of Serbia, because
8 I'm not familiar with that.
9 Q. I should not like to debate that with you because you are saying
10 things that are not accurate. Again, I don't mind because you are not a
12 But do you know that the constitution of the Republic of Serbia
13 envisaged Serbo-Croatian as the official language and the official
14 scripts were both Roman and Cyrillic, and that in various republics
15 populated by various nationalities and ethnicities and minorities their
16 languages and their scripts were also in use. And that these languages
17 were equal regardless of ethnicity, that minorities had the right to
18 their language, culture, the use of their script and other rights. Do
19 you know about these provisions when you say that the cooling of
20 relations occurred? These were provisions 8, 32, and 40, from the
21 constitutions of 1990.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djordjevic, we are dealing with a witness who
23 does not claim in any way to be either an expert in law or constitutional
24 law or to be an expert in political affairs. He comes to you telling you
25 simply he is a railway officer. You are not assisting anybody with these
2 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm putting these
3 questions because of the things the witness stated in his statements from
4 1999 and 2001 when he said he was not allowed to use his own language,
5 and that they were even fined to the tune of 30 per cent to 50 per cent
6 for using the Albanian language. That's why I'm asking him whether he
7 had ever been sanctioned because of this, and what I put to him is the
8 result of that question.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it's going a long way too far. If you want
10 to find from him whether or not he was fined, obviously that's practical.
11 But to debate with him the legality and constitutional propriety of any
12 fine, if there was a fine, is not.
13 MR. DJORDJEVIC: No, no.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Now, you've got about three to four more minutes,
15 so you better use them. Move on.
16 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thus the witness was talking
17 about the deteriorating relations between Serbs and Albanians from 1990
19 Q. My question is: Was he personally ever disciplined in his work
20 organisation, the railway company, for using the Albanian language?
21 A. No, I wasn't disciplined myself. But it is a fact that some of
22 my colleagues were deducted a percentage of their salary for using their
23 mother tongue in the place of work.
24 Q. Thank you. You said that Zika, the chief of the station, called
25 the bus station whenever there was no room in the trains on the
1 15th and the 16th when you tried to leave for the first time, on the 15th
2 exactly. How do you know that Zika called the buses?
3 A. I said that I was often present at the train station, and I
4 eye-witnessed when he contacted the police or the bus stations to
5 organise the transport of people, not only by buses but also by trucks.
6 Q. How do you know about the 15th, that's what I asked. Did you
7 hear that? Did you overhear it?
8 A. No, on the 15th I didn't overhear it.
9 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, my last but one question. Paragraph 17 in your
10 statement, you say that when you finally managed to set out towards
12 formed so that you could walk only towards the railroad and the border.
13 But in your 1999 statement, you don't mention the cordon, you say that
14 there were policemen who escorted you to the border and told you to
15 follow the railroad because the area around was mined. You say that
16 there were regular army troops around who shouted at you various
17 comments. What -- which one of these is true, the police cordon or army
18 troops shouting various remarks at you?
19 A. I don't recall to have declared that there was a police line.
20 But there were army officers and soldiers when the train stopped and when
21 we were asked to board off the train, so that is the truth. When we were
22 told to get off, I don't want to repeat myself, there were police and
23 soldiers. I don't think I have said that there was a police line.
24 Q. My reference is paragraph 17 in your statement from 2001, but
25 you've just explained it in such a way that it does not require any more
2 Here is my last question regarding the diary kept already in the
3 evidence. On the 24th of March, the air-strikes against Serbia started.
4 Until the 29th of March, not a single train passed, will you agree? Do
5 you know?
6 A. I don't have the log-book with me. If there is nothing written,
7 if there is no entry in the log-book about that, then it's true, that no
8 train passed.
9 Q. On the day when you first moved, it was entered that there were
10 only two trains. The train you took left at 0817 hours which coincides
11 with other information, and you returned in the afternoon because you did
12 not manage to cross the border. On the 16th there were again two trains,
13 and the train that left to the Djeneral Jankovic border crossing carrying
14 3.000 people and 10 policemen, you say that it arrived at the time you
15 indicated. But I want to ask you this, and that's my last question, was
16 it customary for policemen it to escort trains, even in peacetime? As a
17 railroad worker, you should know that.
18 A. Yes, it's true that now and again, not always, I'm talking of
19 local trains that circulated all over Kosova, so there were instances
20 when there were policemen present in the train, but not always. In very
21 rare occasions. And we are talking about one or two police, policemen.
22 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this completes my
23 cross-examination. Thank you for the time you gave me. In the future, I
24 will limit my questions to those directly linked to the case.
25 Mr. Bucaliu, thank you for all the clarifications you've given
1 us. I think this will contribute even more to the establishment of truth
2 and facts. Thank you.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Djordjevic.
4 Ms. D'Ascoli, is there re-examination?
5 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, very briefly, Your Honour.
6 Re-examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
7 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, you were asked by my learned colleague from the
8 Defence about the Serbs living in your village and whether upon your
9 return to the village they were still there or how -- what happened to
10 their houses. And you said that after June or anyway after you returned
11 to your village the houses were demolished.
12 I was interested in knowing whether upon your return in
13 Staro Selo, you saw what happened to the Serb houses in your village, if
14 you happen to notice that? In which condition you found them.
15 A. I explained earlier when I returned with the exception of one
16 house belonging the the Serbs the others were demolished.
17 Q. So when you returned they were already demolished?
18 A. Yes, that's true.
19 Q. I understood that they were demolished afterwards. And in which
20 condition did you find your own house?
21 A. My house and the houses of my brothers and of many neighbours
22 were completely burned down. Nothing was intact. And this was the case
23 with about 40 houses in the village.
24 Q. What about these 40 houses, were they belonging to your
25 neighbourhood or to which people?
1 A. I'm talking about the houses of Albanians. I explained that the
2 Serbs' houses were also demolished, but I'm talking about the houses of
3 Albanians which were burned down by the Serb forces. About the Serb
4 houses, I may presume that most probably they were destroyed by
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you very much, Mr. Bucaliu.
7 No further questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you Ms. D'Ascoli.
9 Mr. Bucaliu, you will be pleased to know that completes the the
10 questions for you. We would like to thank you for your being able to
11 travel to The Hague
12 us. And you may now of course return to your normal activities. And the
13 court officer will show you out. Thank you indeed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My thanks to all of you
15 Honourable Judges. I didn't have an opportunity to go into details about
16 one aspect because there were some things which were not clear in other
17 transcripts or trials about why trains came there, why they were not
18 stopped or stopped. If you want further details, I may explain it to
19 you, if you can give me 5 minutes, if that is of relevance to you. If
20 not, then I'm content as it is.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for your offer, but I believe we've got
22 the information we need. So thank you indeed. The court officer will
23 show you out.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you again.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, I see.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Now that
3 this witness went out, I would like to ask you for an explanation. The
4 next witness has protective measures. I think that we are going to have
5 a closed session. I will need to put to this witness a statement of
6 another protected witness who also testified in closed session.
7 Now, could you now give me instructions as to how to do this
8 best. Should I mention the position of the previous protected witness?
9 Now, if I mention the position and the function that he held then
10 everybody will know his identity, even though it's a closed session, or
11 should I only refer to that other protected witness by pseudonym? And it
12 has do with some contradictory statements of these two protected
14 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have a statement or a transcript of this
15 other witness that you need to put to the person here? So you'll need to
16 show him a document or more than one?
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] First I can just put a question
18 to him and say another witness said this or that, or I can show him a
19 portion of the transcript, since I have it on the list of documents I
20 wish to use. But I'm not going to use it, if it is contrary to the rules
21 of procedure, or perhaps you can instruct me as to how to use them.
22 JUDGE PARKER: It's a matter of degree and necessity. If it's
23 possible to effectively conduct your cross-examination without
24 identifying a protected witness to this witness, that should be done. So
25 that if you can say to him, I want you to comment on the evidence given
1 by another person in this trial or in another trial where that person
2 said this, this, this, and this, and you quote, that will usually be
3 effective and enough.
4 If for some reason that isn't working, we may have to make some
5 other special procedural provision. But perhaps you could try that
6 approach to begin with. Thank you.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I'm taking a guess at Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. That's correct. The next witness
10 is K-86, but since it's closed session I was wondering if it might be
11 convenient --
12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Well we're about to do that now if that is
13 the witness, and you are about to move into a better position, and we'll
14 move into closed session.
15 [Closed session]
11 Pages 5115-5142 redacted. Closed session.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th of May,
25 2009, at 9.00 a.m.