1 Friday, 12 June 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
6 MS. GOPALAN: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan, I hear there's been some success with
8 the exhibits.
9 MS. GOPALAN: That's correct, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I'm told 15 that are to be marked for
11 identification are to be admitted, 50 public documents are to be admitted
12 by consent, and 3 admitted by consent but under seal.
13 MS. GOPALAN: That's correct, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE PARKER: If those figures are right, there will be a
15 general order that the court officer will process those and will issue a
16 memorandum with the exhibit numbers.
17 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Does that save you a lot of reading.
19 MS. GOPALAN: Indeed.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].
21 JUDGE PARKER: What I said was ambiguous. The 15 marked for
22 identification will be marked for identification, not admitted as
24 MS. GOPALAN: I believe they are part of the motion to add
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
2 Now, ready for the next witness.
3 MS. GOPALAN: Yes, I am, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 Mr. Djurdjic, you've got some of yours agreed to. 12, is it?
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. First
7 of all, I would like to notify you that in the end I accepted all the
8 documents of the Prosecution, and they failed to note that. So
9 regardless of whether they are the police documents or not, I accepted
10 them because I believe that in this trial if there is no doubt about a
11 document, we need to have them and exhibit them and show them to the
12 witness so that they explain to us what this is all about. And we will
13 at one point come to a stage where we will be able to do that outside of
14 the trial itself, the hearing itself.
15 The Prosecution agreed with the list of documents that we
16 submitted to the court deputy, and I would like to move that those
17 Defence documents that the Prosecution has not objected to also be
18 admitted into evidence. Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Those documents will also be admitted and there
20 will be a memorandum published by the court officer indicating the
21 exhibit numbers.
22 Now, after the slow pace of the last witness for good reason, we
23 hope we can have a couple of quick-pace witnesses.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation which
3 is shown to you now.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I declare that I shall say truth,
5 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: SAMI PARASHUMTI
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, please sit down. Ms. Gopalan has some
9 questions for you.
10 Examination by Ms. Gopalan:
11 Q. Good morning, sir.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Before we begin, I would just like to check if you've got your
14 spectacles with you this morning, because we may be needing it in the
15 course of the proceedings. That's wonderful.
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Please could you state your full name for the record.
18 A. Sami Parashumti.
19 Q. Thank you. And how old are you?
20 A. 54.
21 Q. Sir, where were you born?
22 A. I was born on the 13th of August, 1955, in Gjakove.
23 Q. And where do you live now, sir?
24 A. I still live in Gjakove.
25 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to ask you some questions about your
1 statements. Now, do you recall that you gave a statement to members of
2 this Tribunal on the 30th of January, 2000?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Sir, have you recently had the opportunity to review the
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, I understand that having reviewed the statement, you wish to
8 make some corrections to it?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. I will now take you through the corrections and if you could let
11 me know if you agree with the corrections. Let's begin.
12 In the English page 2, paragraph 3, the B/C/S is the same
14 MS GOPALAN: And for the Court's information, this is
15 65 ter 05182.
16 Q. You say:
17 "I observed the home of Dardan Riza being set on fire."
18 The correction you wish to make is as follows:
19 "I saw flames from Dardan Riza's house. I learned from one of my
20 neighbours that Dardan Riza's house had been set on fire."
21 Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is correct.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. If we can
25 correct the statement in this manner, well, then, I think that the
1 witness is the one who should do it, not the Prosecution. If the
2 correction is not made in the course of the evidence.
3 JUDGE PARKER: This is a matter of form rather than substance,
4 Mr. Djurdjic. The witness is in his evidence agreeing to these changes,
5 and it saves time if the matter is not obviously contentious. We'll
6 proceed on that basis.
7 Carry on, please, Ms. Gopalan.
8 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. Sir, I'll take you to the second correction wish to make to your
10 statement that is page 3, paragraph 2, of both the English and the B/C/S.
11 The 7th sentence. Currently your statement reads:
12 "I noticed two dark blue armoured vehicles parked near the Vejsa
13 home and also four dark blue jeeps parked around the corner near the
15 The correction you wish to make is as follows, and I'll read it
16 out now:
17 "I noticed one dark blue armoured vehicle parked near the Vejsa
18 home, and I heard the noises of other vehicles. I later learned from my
19 neighbours that there were also four dark blue jeeps."
20 Is that correct, sir?
21 A. Yes, it is true that I only saw one. The other neighbours saw
22 the others. However, I did hear the noise of the engines, of the other
23 cars, that is.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. And finally, you wish to highlight another
25 correction that you made to the statement, that's statement of the
1 30th of January, 2000. And this correction is already set out in your
2 supplemental statement of the 15th of March, 2002. This is also part of
3 65 ter 05182. And I will just read out the correction that you made in
4 your statement of March 2002:
5 "Because of the darkness and my state of fear, I am not sure that
6 the two policemen, Dragan Shipanoviq and Nenad Raqeviq whom I mentioned
7 in my statement really were present, but I suspect it was them."
8 That's the end of the correction.
9 A. Yes, it is correct, and true.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, having made these corrections to your
11 statement of January, 2000, sir, one of which is set out in your
12 supplemental statement of March 2002, are you satisfied that both these
13 statements are true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and
15 A. Yes, they are.
16 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honour, I seek to tender this exhibit into
17 evidence; it's 05182.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00903, Your Honours.
20 MS. GOPALAN: I will now read out the witness's in-court summary.
21 The witness is a Kosovo Albanian male who lived in Millosh Giliq
22 in Djakovica in 1999. The witness will testify that on the 2nd of April
23 around midnight he saw Serb police knocking on doors along Millosh Giliq
24 street. He saw smoke rising from the Riza house and subsequently learned
25 from a neighbour that it had been set on fire. He also heard gun-shots
1 from the area of the Vejsa family residence and children screaming "they
2 are going to kill us." Approximately 15 minutes later, he heard more
3 gun-fire coming from the Vejsa house.
4 The witness escaped to the roof of his house and saw flames from
5 the homes that were on fire. From that vantage point, he also observed
6 12 policemen in his yard, and he describes the uniforms of those
8 He also saw approximately 50 policemen along the street and one
9 dark blue armoured vehicle parked near the Vejsa home. The witness will
10 testify that he saw policemen coming out of the Cana house with Januz
11 Cana's daughter, Shpresa. He saw them take her into a tunnel by the
12 house. He saw that one policeman had a knife, and shortly after he heard
13 Shpresa scream.
14 The witness then saw his house was on fire and fled to nearby
15 houses. He then joined a convoy heading to Albania with his family and
16 crossed the border into Albania.
17 That's the end of the summary.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 MS. GOPALAN:
20 Q. Sir, I now have a few questions for you about the events on these
21 early hours of the 2nd of April. Sir, in your statement, you say - and
22 this is at page 2, paragraph 3 of the English, and the B/C/S is the same
23 reference - you say that on the 2nd of April, at approximately 12.05
24 a.m., the Serb police started knocking on doors along
25 Milosh Gilic Street. Sir, how did you know that these were policemen,
1 those that were knocking on the doors?
2 A. Yes, one could hear the noise of the doors. Some doors were iron
3 doors others were wooden so that when the doors opened a lot of noise
4 could be heard. And we were able to conclude that attacks against us
5 were beginning. It was a very quiet night and even the lightest of the
6 noises could easily be heard. And so this started coming from the other
7 houses to our own because we happened to be in the corner at the end of
8 the street.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go back to the question. How did you
10 know that those who were knocking on the doors were policemen?
11 A. I know because when I was sitting on the roof-top and trying to
12 assess which way I'd be able to make my escape without the presence of
13 policemen, I was able to see near a corner a car that had stopped and
14 policemen emerging from it. Some were hiding behind, others were almost
15 in the courtyard of Xhemil Caka's house. They had weapons, and they were
16 leaning against fences and giving commands right left and centre as to
17 which way people were to go.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Let me just stop you there to clarify what you
19 have said, but before we move on to you being on the roof, I'd like to
20 take you back to when you were in Januz Cana's home, and this was after
21 the police started knocking on the doors. I'd like to ask you some
22 questions about Januz Cana. Who was Januz Cana?
23 A. Januz Cana was one of our neighbours, next-door neighbours. My
24 house and his house are adjacent.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. And you say that while you were standing by
1 Januz Cana's front door, you heard gun-shots coming from the area of the
2 Vejsa family residence, which is located across the street.
3 This is paragraph 3 of the English, page 2, and the same in the
5 I'd like you to identify --
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. -- some of the homes that you have mentioned.
8 MS. GOPALAN: Could I call up 65 ter 275, please.
9 Q. Sir, shortly there should be a photograph appearing on your
10 screen. Sir, do you recognise this photograph?
11 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
12 Q. What does this photograph depict?
13 A. This photograph shows the Vejsa family house from above.
14 Q. I will ask you, if you can, to mark on the photograph the Vejsa
15 family home, and the usher will assist you with this. Could you please
16 put the letter A beside the Vejsa family home, and circle the Vejsa home,
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you. And could you please put the letter B beside your own
20 home or on your own home.
21 A. My house.
22 Q. And could you please put a letter C on the Cana home, please.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you, sir.
25 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document into
1 evidence, please.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 MS. GOPALAN:
4 Q. Sir, in your statement you say after you returned to your home --
5 oh, sorry.
6 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00904, Your Honours.
7 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you.
8 Q. Sir, you say approximately 15 minutes later - and this is at
9 paragraph 3 of the English, page 2, and B/C/S page 2, paragraph 3, so the
10 same reference - you say you heard a second burst of gun-fire coming from
11 the Vejsa home. Now, you've just marked the Vejsa home for us on the
12 map. Could you tell us, did you learn what was the -- what happened in
13 the Vejsa home on that day?
14 A. We learned of it when we were in Albania that there were about
15 members of four families who died. We didn't see anything when we were
16 there. All we heard was the gun-shots. And they say that the first of
17 the attacks was the shop and Hisen Gashi was killed in his courtyard and
18 then uninterrupted gun-fire could be heard in the areas as well as the
19 screams of women and children. And after the uninterrupted burst of
20 gun-fire, no more noises could be heard. No one was alive.
21 Q. Thank you. Sir, I'd now like to move on to what you saw from the
22 roof. You mentioned this earlier. In your statement you say:
23 After hearing the Serbs trying to enter the Cana house, you tried
24 to escape by proceeding to the roof of your house.
25 Could you tell us what you saw from the roof of your house?
1 A. With my own eyes -- may I make a point, references to where I was
2 and what kind of vantage point I had?
3 Q. Yes, you may. If you could mark with a D where you were on the
4 roof of your house.
5 MS. GOPALAN: Perhaps we could call up P275 -- sorry, 65 ter 275
6 again, please.
7 Q. Could you mark for us, sir, where you were on the roof.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] On the previous document we
12 admitted, I believe the witness already drew this roof D, and he is now
13 again drawing it on the new document. Because when he said "may I," he
14 was told he may, but perhaps we should check. I believe there's another
15 D already on that document. Maybe we'll have a surplus.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I only saw A, B, and C, Mr. Djurdjic. But if it's
17 marked twice, it doesn't matter.
18 Carry on, please, Ms. Gopalan.
19 MS. GOPALAN:
20 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, from the point that you marked now on this
21 photograph, please tell us what you saw.
22 A. There was a police van, a blue one, here. May I mark where it
24 Q. Not for the moment, please. Could you just tell us what you saw
25 after you saw the police van.
1 A. The van stopped, the lights were off, and the policemen came out.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, in your statement you say that you saw or
3 you observed 12 policemen in your yard and that some of them were wearing
4 blue camouflage. And this is at the English page 2, paragraph 4. B/C/S
5 pages 2 to 3, also paragraph 4 for page 2.
6 Now, sir, what were the rest of the policemen wearing? You said
7 some were wearing blue camouflage, what were the rest wearing?
8 A. Three of them were wearing blue uniforms. Oh, I'm sorry, they
9 were wearing green uniforms. Three of them. While the other ones were
10 all wearing blue uniforms.
11 Q. Thank you, sir. Are these the policemen who you observed in your
12 yard, the men that you have just described?
13 A. Yes. These three in green uniforms were in my own yard. The
14 other ones went close to our wall, but they were looking towards the Cana
15 family home. They wanted to climb the wall or what they wanted to do, I
16 don't know.
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 MS. GOPALAN: I'd like to tender the markings on the screen into
19 evidence, please.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It's merely the D.
21 MS. GOPALAN: That's right, sir.
22 JUDGE PARKER: You don't want the position of the vehicle?
23 MS. GOPALAN: I could ask the witness to identify the vehicle.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 MS. GOPALAN:
1 Q. Sir, early on, you mentioned that you saw a police vehicle.
2 Could you mark for us with an E where that vehicle was located, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. GOPALAN: I'd now like to tender the document.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
7 MS. GOPALAN: And I'd like to call up P831, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: And the marked version, Your Honours, will be
9 assigned P00905.
10 MS. GOPALAN:
11 Q. Sir, shortly on your screen there will appear some patterns of
12 uniforms, and I'd like you to tell us, if you can, if any of those
13 patterns were similar or the same to what you saw the policemen you
14 mentioned wearing.
15 A. As far as I remember -- may I write the number of the ones that I
17 Q. If you could just identify them for us. There are four samples
18 there. There's one on the top left-hand corner, top right-hand corner,
19 bottom left, and bottom right. If it's easier, you can also mark the
20 ones that you saw with a tick or some sort of marking.
21 A. There were three wearing this kind of uniform. There were 12
22 wearing this one.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. For the record, the witness has marked
24 the top right with a horizontal dash and a number 3 in the margin next to
25 it, and has marked the top left pattern with a dash and the number 12 in
1 the margin next to it.
2 MS. GOPALAN:
3 Q. Sir, where did you see these policemen?
4 A. I saw all of them. I think I made a mistake earlier. There were
5 12 altogether, and 3 of them who were wearing green uniforms were in my
6 own yard. And there were 9 wearing the blue uniforms. Earlier I made a
7 mistake, the total number was 12.
8 Q. In that case, could you scrub off, you could cancel off the 12,
9 and replace it with I think what you have said is that you saw 9 of them
10 wearing the blue uniforms.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. You also say in your statement that you saw
13 another 50 policemen on the street. And this is at page 3, paragraph 2,
14 English and B/C/S is the same reference. Now, what were they wearing, if
15 you remember?
16 A. All of them were wearing this colour.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. GOPALAN: Let the record indicate that the witness has marked
19 the top left-hand corner camouflage pattern.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. And what were these policemen doing?
21 A. They were far away from where I was staying at the Caka family
22 home; but I could hear that orders were being given, and they were
23 leaning against the fence. There was a wire fence and they were giving
24 orders left and right. I couldn't hear the voices there, but I could
25 hear the voices of the people who were closer to my home, and I could
1 hear that they were speaking in Serbian and also in Russian. There was a
2 language I could not understand. I mean, spoken by the people who were
3 close to where I was.
4 I was -- they were right in front of the balcony about a couple
5 of metres from my balcony. That's where the 12 were. And then I could
6 see that more policemen were coming close to the Caka family home. They
7 were about 50. I'm not sure exactly how many, maybe 45 or 50, but I
8 could see them.
9 Q. Sir, just going back to your answer when you say that you could
10 hear orders being given and they were leaning against the fence, did you
11 see --
12 A. Just a second, please. I've got a problem.
13 [In English] Thank you.
14 Q. Let me just repeat my question, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MS. GOPALAN:
17 Q. Just going back to the answer that you gave earlier that you
18 heard orders being given, do you remember what orders they were?
19 A. I can hardly remember. I could hear people saying things: go
20 left, go right, go to this house, or go to this direction, and search the
22 Q. Thank you, sir.
23 MS. GOPALAN: I'd like to tender this exhibit into evidence,
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 MS. GOPALAN: And I'd like to call up P318, please.
2 Q. Sir, early on, you marked for us -- I'll wait.
3 THE REGISTRAR: And the marked version, Your Honours, will be
4 assigned P00906.
5 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you. I'd now like to call up P318, please.
6 Q. Sir, earlier on in your testimony you marked for us and you
7 mentioned of a vehicle that you saw. Do you remember that, a vehicle
8 that you saw by the Vejsa home? Now, on your screen there are
9 photographs of a number of vehicles. If you are able to identify any of
10 these vehicles as the one that you saw by the Vejsa family home, please
11 let us know which number that is. Now, on page 1 there are four
12 photographs. Did you see any of these vehicles by the Vejsa family home?
13 A. I did not see these ones.
14 Q. Let's move on to the second page then --
15 A. I did not see them near the Vejsa home only.
16 MS. GOPALAN: Could we have the second page, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. May I mark?
18 MS. GOPALAN:
19 Q. If you could just read out the number for us, please.
20 A. Number 7. But not in this colour. It was blue, the police
22 Q. Thank you, sir. I'd now like to move on to when you left your
23 home. You say at page 3, paragraph, 5 of the English:
24 "I noticed that my house was on fire and that I had better
2 MS. GOPALAN: The B/C/S is pages 3 to 4 beginning with
3 paragraph 4.
4 Q. And then you also say that around 7.00 a.m. those in the Krasniqi
5 home including yourself departed for Albania. Sir, how many of you were
6 gathered in the Krasniqi home?
7 A. There were about 300 of us. 300, even more. I'm sure about 300
9 Q. Thank you. And, sir, you then say that you departed for Albania.
10 Why is it that you departed for Albania?
11 A. We departed because both on the right-hand side and left-hand
12 side of the neighbourhood all the houses were burned. We did not have
13 anywhere to stay, only the Serb houses were not burned. And some of the
14 Albanian houses were not burned because they were next to the Serb
15 houses, and if they had burned the Albanian houses, then the Serbs would
16 have suffered as well.
17 And there was nothing else for us to do but leave the
18 neighbourhood because there was this foul smell. I can't describe it to
19 you what kind of smell it was. Horrible.
20 Q. And, sir, you mentioned houses being burned. Do you know who
21 burnt these houses?
22 A. Their houses -- these houses were burned by the people who
23 entered the yards. There was nobody else to burn them.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, during your journey to Albania, what, if
25 anything, happened to your identity documents?
1 A. Yes. When we left the neighbourhood and were on our way to
2 Albania, Besim Bokshi was leading the way; he was the first in the convoy
3 and we followed him. We went along the Dan Leshi Street and then went to
4 the Main Street close to the courthouse. Behind me there were about 200
5 or 300 people, and a bus attacked us, a bus of the Lasta company.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. Just because I'm running out of time, I'd just
7 like to take you to my question early on where I asked what, if anything,
8 happened to your identity documents. Did anything happen to your
9 identity documents?
10 A. I did have my ID card, and I handed it over. On the outskirts of
11 town there are two bridges, the old and the new one. At the old bridge,
12 there was -- there were three policemen, and we had to show the ID card
13 to them and then we had to drop it on the ground. After that, we had the
14 right to proceed towards Albania.
15 Q. Thank you. And what about the others who were in your group,
16 what happened to their identity cards or other identity documents?
17 A. Everybody was asked to show their ID cards. The ones that did
18 not have their IDs were stopped there. I don't know what happened to
19 them because we continued on our way to Albania.
20 Q. Sir, could you tell us which route you took to Albania? What
21 towns did you pass?
22 A. Yes. After we passed the Tabako [phoen] bridge, we went to
23 Brekoc. This is an outlying village. The second village is Vugova. The
24 third one Zhubi. At Zhubi, the army was stopping the refugees and loaded
25 them on tractors to go towards Albania. We were not able to walk after
1 Zhubi; we had to get on tractors and go to the border.
2 When we got to the border, the elderly men and women that were
3 there were helped by the Yugoslav Army. They were taken towards the
4 Albanian border. The disabled people, the sick and elderly, were helped
5 by the army.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, you mentioned refugees in Zub. Do you
7 remember how many refugees there were in Zub?
8 A. When we got there we found about 250 of them there. When our
9 convoy got there, there were about 800 altogether. There were other
10 convoys coming from elsewhere, from other directions. I could not see
11 the end of the convoy, but there were a large number of people, about
12 800. And then we were told to get on tractors in groups and we were
13 directed towards Albania and the Albanian border.
14 Q. And in which town or at which point did you cross over into the
15 Albanian border, if you remember?
16 A. We crossed at Qafa e Prushit through the mountains, because the
17 main road where the customs offices of Albania and Yugoslavia were had
18 been mined, so the army directed us towards this other road and to the
19 border there.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. Just to finish off, I'd like to go back to your
21 return to Djakovo. You've already spoken a little bit about this. Could
22 you tell us, if you remember, when it is that you returned from Albania
23 back to your neighbourhood.
24 A. I returned to my neighbourhood in Gjakove on the
25 25th of June, 1999.
1 Q. Thank you, sir.
2 MS. GOPALAN: I'd now like to call up 65 ter 275 again, please.
3 Q. Sir, you've already mentioned the -- what you smelled when you
4 returned to your neighbourhood and the condition of some of the homes.
5 You said that homes had been burned but some homes -- you also said that
6 some homes had not been burned, Albanian homes, because they were
7 adjacent to Serb homes. Now, in this picture that you've already seen,
8 could you mark for us -- could you circle the homes that were not burned?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. GOPALAN: Could the usher please assist.
11 Q. If you could just circle the homes that were not burned.
12 A. The Serb houses that were not burned, you want me to mark them,
13 to put a circle?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. This is Xhemil Caka's house and -- or Dan Caka's house. This one
16 was not burned.
17 Q. Sir, could you put a circle around the Serb houses that were not
18 burned. I know that you've put a marking, but I am afraid it's not
20 A. Like this?
21 Q. Yes, thank you. And whose house was that?
22 A. The first one was the house of an elderly Serb woman. Her
23 children were living in Serbia; I don't know what town. She was living
24 there on her own.
25 Q. Could you put a number 1 beside that house, please. This house
1 that you mentioned belonging to the elderly Serb woman.
2 A. Number 1.
3 Q. Thank you. And how about the second circle --
4 A. There was another one that belonged to a Montenegrin. This one
5 here. Mat Buriqi's house.
6 Q. You marked that house with a number 1, but I'd like you to put a
7 number 2, please, Mat Buriqi's house.
8 A. Here, number 2.
9 Q. And how about the circle in the middle that you haven't given a
10 number to, who did that house belong to?
11 A. This is Xhemil Caka's house, and this other one --
12 Q. What was his ethnicity?
13 A. Albanian.
14 Q. From the photograph it appears that his house was not burned, do
15 you know why that's the case?
16 A. Xhemil Caka's house was not burned because it was next to the
17 Serb woman's house, and it would burn if the Albanian's home would burn.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. This other house belonged to Ketar Kastrati and that house was
20 not burned as well because it was next to the Montenegrin's house.
21 Q. Thank you, sir --
22 A. Next to house number 2.
23 Q. Before we finish, could you please put a number 3 on Xhemil
24 Caka's house.
25 A. That's it.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. GOPALAN: Sir, at this stage I have no further questions for
4 I'd like to tender this document into evidence, please.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00907, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Gopalan.
8 Mr. Djurdjic, are you now ready to cross-examine?
9 Would you like a break now or are you able to continue?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can continue.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
12 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Parashumpti, my name is Veljko Djurdjic, and I'm
15 a member of the Defence team representing the accused Vlastimir
16 Djordjevic. And I am here in the courtroom with Ms. Marie O'Leary who is
17 also a member of the Defence team. Are you feeling okay?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now I would like us to continue in the same vein as you did with
20 Ms. Gopalan. I would like you to look at the transcript and when you see
21 that the cursor has come to a stop, then please start answering the
22 question, because I speak rather fast.
23 Mr. Parashumti, you were born in Djakovica, was your father also
24 born in Djakovica?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. And in 1999, who were you living with in the house
2 that you showed us?
3 A. I live in a flat. It's 54 square metres all in all. Before the
4 24th of March, somewhere around the 20th, I returned to my parents' house
5 because of the fear that on account of about 50 per cent of Serbs living
6 in the neighbourhood, I would not feel quite safe.
7 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me who did you -- who were you
8 with when you came to your parents' house?
9 A. We split in two groups. My wife, my second daughter, and the
10 little son went by the in-laws. Me and my eldest daughter and my biggest
11 son went to my parents, and this because we were afraid to be all
12 together. At least if one lot were to be killed, at least the others
13 would survive. This was our thinking. She stayed at the in-laws for
14 three days and then she returned with the two children where we stayed at
15 my parents house, from her own parents house, and we stayed there until
16 the 2nd of April when we departed to Albania.
17 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me who lived in your parents'
18 house when you came in March 1999?
19 A. My father who died two years ago, my mother who died a year ago,
20 my brother, and his wife. Four people altogether.
21 Q. Thank you. How many brothers did you have, brothers who were
22 alive, in March 1999?
23 A. We are four brothers. Two of us live abroad and two have lived
24 in the Gjakove city.
25 Q. And you are one of the two that lived in Djakovica?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Well, can you tell me whether the two brothers who were abroad
3 remained there during the war in 1999?
4 A. Yes, one has been living abroad for 38 years. The other brother
5 used to live there and he returned two years -- he had left Kosova two
6 years earlier, and he was there during the war.
7 Q. Abroad?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Whenever you can, please answer by just saying yes or no.
10 And I see here that you said that you had four or five children.
11 Could you please tell me what -- how old were they in 1999?
12 A. I have four children. I never said I had five. I have four.
13 Two daughters and two sons. The eldest daughter was 16. The second
14 daughter was 15. My eldest son was 13. And the little son was 3.
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Parashumti, I can see that you did your national
16 service. What colour uniform did you wear when you were in the army?
17 A. Blue. It was the colour of the army, and I served my military
18 service in Slovenia.
19 Q. Thank you. Were you perhaps in the border patrol?
20 A. No, I was a driver. I had my instruction to Rijeka, but the
21 appointment was given to me at Tulmin near Nova Gorica.
22 Q. Thank you. And can you tell me whether you served in the reserve
23 force once you returned from your national service in the army?
24 A. Yes, I have.
25 Q. Thank you. And did you have any insignia on the uniforms, and if
1 yes, what kind of insignia?
2 A. Yes. Can you please repeat because I did not quite understand.
3 Q. Yes, yes. I asked you if you had any kind of insignia on the
4 uniform, or if you didn't, perhaps if other people did, if they had some
5 rank that you didn't have?
6 A. Do you mean my uniform or somebody else's uniform? My uniform
7 was the simple soldier's uniform.
8 Q. Thank you. And did the officers have any kind of insignia on
9 their uniforms; and if yes, do you remember what kind of insignia and
10 where were they?
11 A. Yes, I do remember. And even asking about that could lead us
12 into who we were and what kind of soldiers they had. Vukusic, Mario, who
13 was mine and my platoon's commander.
14 Q. Do you understand what I'm asking you? I'm asking you whether
15 the commander of whatever platoon, company, battalion, had any insignia;
16 and if you do, what kind of insignia, do you remember that? I'm not
17 interested in the persons names.
18 A. The commander was a four-star rank officer.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me where was your apartment in
20 Djakovica? What street?
21 A. My apartment?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. At the outskirts of the town way out of the city on the way to
24 Prizren near the police station. There is a building which is called
25 Skenderbeu number 12.
1 Q. Thank you. And can you tell me how far is it from your parents'
2 house, that apartment?
3 A. About 5 kilometres, 4 and a half, 5.
4 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me how long had you lived in that
5 apartment of yours?
6 A. I got into that place in 1989, and I still live there, after this
7 year that is, 2009.
8 Q. Thank you. And can you tell me, your wife and your two children
9 went to her parents place, is this in the same area, in the
10 Milosh Gilic Street or was it in some other neighbourhood in Djakovica?
11 A. My wife went to Cabrat. It's a neighbourhood which is called the
12 Qyli neighbourhood which from the main road takes you to Cabrat.
13 Q. Thank you. And where was Afrim Berisha's house?
14 A. Afrim Berisha's house was behind mine, about 35 metres away.
15 There is an empty space, like a road, there's the wall and then it's his
16 house. So it's behind me and Januz Cana's houses.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me your parents' house, where was the
18 entrance to the house, on what side? I mean, what side of the street,
19 were they from Milos Gilic Street or some other street?
20 A. There were two entrances because we lived with our uncle as well,
21 so he had his own entrance and we had ours on the side, on the
22 Fehme Agani side of the street. We also had two back entrances, my
23 uncle's as well as ours. The doors were smaller, though. They are not
24 the same size as the front doors on the Fehme Agani side of the house.
25 Q. Thank you. And in 1999 was the street called Fehme Agani Street,
1 or did it have some other name?
2 A. Forgive me, it was called Millosh Giliq at that time. It is now
3 called Fehme Agani. I suddenly confused the two eras. But in the old
4 days it was certainly called Millosh Giliq.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me -- well, I saw on the photograph the
6 first house from the street, was it your brother's house and then your
7 house was behind it, or were the two houses side by side?
8 A. My uncle's house and my house shared the same roofs. It was the
9 same big house split in two, which is the same to this day. We haven't
10 finished --
11 Q. Sorry, I got mixed -- I got mixed up. Could you please just tell
12 me whether they were deeper into the courtyard, or were they on the
13 street itself?
14 A. They were deeper. There was a yard in front.
15 Q. Thank you. You must know how wide and how deep this plot of land
17 A. It's about 5 acres altogether. I think it's 14 metres wide; I
18 don't know how deep it is though, but I know that the surface area is
19 about 5 acres.
20 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me, from the street, from the gate
21 at the entrance to the yard and -- how far was it from the house? So
22 from the street to the house, what was the distance?
23 A. I understand, I understand. About 20 metres, but I can't be
24 certain. It could be 22, it could be 23; I'm not certain.
25 Q. Yes, of course you can't. I'm asking you to give me an
1 approximation. And the yard itself, was there a wall around it?
2 A. On two sides of the house there was wall. However, between my
3 uncle's house and ours, we had a gate.
4 Q. Thank you. And how high was the wall and what was the wall made
6 A. It was built of building blocks, concrete. The height, I don't
7 understand. Do you mean how high it was, the wall?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I think roughly 1.60 metres.
10 Q. Thank you. And the gate, what was it made and how high was it?
11 A. The doors at my place and the uncle's place were iron made. It
12 was at a distance of 22, 23 metres up to the balcony of the house. I
13 could be wrong by roughly 2 or 3 metres.
14 Q. Thank you. And could you please describe the house where you
15 were. What did the house look like?
16 A. Just like a normal house, a one-storied house.
17 Q. Does that mean that it had a ground floor and then the first
18 floor, and that's all?
19 A. One story, it had a single roof.
20 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me how high the house was? How
21 high could you get, for instance?
22 A. Do you mean the wall or do you mean the entire height of the
24 Q. Not the height of the house. I mean the height from the ground
25 to the place where you can stand on or in your house. What was that
2 A. The height of the walls was around 2 metres, and I have no idea
3 how high the roof was. Was it 4 metres, 3 and a half metres? I'm not a
4 builder. I really don't know, and I can't guess. I can't.
5 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: The houses around this house,
6 were they all the same height, were those standardised houses, all the
8 A. Thank you. The whole neighbourhood had the same architecture
9 more or less, it was the same height, it could be a difference of 20, 30
10 centimetres, with the exception of the newest houses which were built
11 later according to some sort of international plan. Our houses, however,
12 were built on old designs based on the laws of former Yugoslavia at the
13 time. So the whole neighbourhood had to build the -- exactly the same
14 model of the houses, that was the law, and they were of the same height.
15 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it's time
17 for our break now.
18 JUDGE PARKER: We have a break now of half an hour, and we will
19 continue at 11.00. The court officer will show you out.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Parashumti, in your statement it says that you arrived at the
3 house of your parents on the 1st of April; is that correct?
4 A. No, on the 20th of April.
5 Q. It's paragraph 2 of your statement of 2000. It says you arrived
6 on the 1st of April, and first you went to see your colleague, an
7 Albanian and his wife, and that Albanian was killed and then you decided
8 to go to your parents' house?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecution is on
11 their feet.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan.
13 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I wonder if the witness would like a
14 copy of his statement if reference is being made to it. I do have a hard
15 copy to spare, or it could be called up on the screen, if necessary.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Well, either you or Mr. Djurdjic can help me to
17 find the passage to which Mr. Djurdjic is referring. I can't find it.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [No interpretation]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The first page of the statement,
21 paragraph number 2:
22 "After the NATO bombing started on the 24th of March, we did not
23 leave our home."
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, I now have it. Thank you. Now, are you
25 going to be asking questions about the statement, further questions? If
1 so, it could be useful for the witness to have a copy.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I agree, but there will be other
3 documents as well. If the witness can confirm something from the
4 statement, I don't see why -- but anyway, it's P903. We can call it up
5 on the screen. The Albanian version, page 1. We have it in English. We
6 don't need the Serbian, but we need the Albanian.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Can I say that I don't read the statement the way
8 you read it with your last question. It's not saying he moved to the
9 house on the 1st of April. I think the statement is merely speaking of a
10 visit to the house, whereas the witness's evidence was that he moved with
11 his parents on the 20th of April.
12 It may be an issue of the translation, but this reference in the
13 statement appears to be to a visit with his wife on the 1st of April to
14 the house of a friend. It's not talking about him moving in with his
15 parents on the 20th of April.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, in the second paragraph of your statement you say:
18 "After the NATO bombings started ... on the 24th, we did not
19 leave our home."
20 Which home do you mean?
21 A. I'm sorry, but I did not understand you. At the beginning?
22 Q. Do you see in the second paragraph of the statement in front of
23 you -- can you read the sentence starting with "Prej fillimit."
24 A. That's correct, that we did not leave our home. But on the 1st I
25 just wasn't to the Cana's home because there was a death in the family, a
1 relative of Cana had been killed. He was a lawyer by profession. He
2 remained -- his body remained in his yard for three days and then he was
3 taken into the house --
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. -- and buried there.
6 Q. My question was about the end of this sentence, namely that you
7 did not leave your home when the bombings started on the 24th of March.
8 Which home -- which building do you mean when you say that?
9 A. I mean Januz Cana's home.
10 Q. Witness, let's clear this up. You had your apartment where you
11 explained at the exit from the town, and you had a house together with
12 your uncle. Do you mean your apartment or your father's house when you
13 say we did not leave our home?
14 A. When I speak about the 24th of March, there were no movement at
15 that time by people in the neighbourhood, and we went to this neighbour
16 to offer our condolences, and we risked our lives to go there.
17 JUDGE PARKER: When you went to this family friend to express
18 your condolences, you went with your wife?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I went together with my wife.
20 He was an in-law of him. He lived in another neighbourhood. But his
21 wife and other women in the neighbourhood went to find the body and to
22 bury him. I don't know how he died. I know that he was killed. And for
23 three days his body was lying in the yard. He was a very well-known
24 person in Gjakove. He was a lawyer.
25 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder whether you could help us to understand,
1 that was on the 24th of March. On that day, where were you living with
2 your wife?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 24th of March, I was at my
4 father's together with my two children. My wife and the other two
5 children were at her parents. In fact, her father was deceased, but her
6 mother was there; and she stayed there together with the children until
7 the 27th. And then because part of the Cabrat neighbourhood was burned,
8 they left the area there and came to my father's house on the
9 27th of March.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.
11 Mr. Djurdjic.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Witness, I'm interested in this time, in the Serbian translation
14 I've got 12.05, that is just after noon. Tell me, what time was it on
15 the 2nd of April when you saw the police knocking on doors? That's
16 paragraph 3:
17 "On the 2nd of April at approximately 12.05..."
18 Why don't you tell me what time it was?
19 A. It was at night. 12.05 midnight. Around midnight. It was 2405
20 as I can express it another way.
21 Q. Now, I'd like to come back to the 1st of April when you were
22 going back home with your wife. You were confronted by three policemen.
23 Will you tell us what these policemen were doing. Where were they?
24 A. Januz Cana's wife and his son saw us off up to the gate. There
25 was also Ganimete Cana with us. And my wife saw the policemen when she
1 was at the gate and said, There are three policemen there. And we went
2 back. We stayed there for about several minute, maybe 4 or 5 minutes;
3 and then Fatmir Cana said, You can go now, they won't do anything to you.
4 He was not afraid, he was a student in France, he lived and
5 studied in France for about ten years, he did not know what fear was.
6 But we were afraid because we lived with fear.
7 Fatmir went ahead of us. The three policemen stopped at my
8 garage. There is a tree there. He took out his gun, but he did not
9 shoot. Thank God we were able to go home and Fatmir stayed there and
10 watched us until we got home. This is what happened.
11 Q. Thank you. I forgot to ask you before, were you employed at the
13 A. No. Nothing was working at the time. No factories. There was
14 only one tile factory that was still operational, all the others were
15 closed down. From 1990, nothing was happening and nobody was working.
16 Not because they didn't want to work, but because we were not allowed to
18 Q. Thank you. But before you stopped working, were you on sick
20 A. Could be. From 1981 I have been ill, yes.
21 Q. Will you tell us why you went to see a doctor?
22 A. I suffer from prostate and my kidneys as well.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you take sick leave now and then, or were you
24 in -- on sick leave for a long time beginning with 1990?
25 A. We were not working in 1990 because everything was closed down.
1 Nothing was being produced.
2 Q. Thank you. Just tell me, how long were you on sick leave?
3 A. After 1981 up to 1990 I had health problems, and I was away from
4 work for two or three weeks at a time. I took medication for my
5 condition and so on.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you continue to be ill after 1990?
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 Q. On that first of April, what time was it when you saw the
9 policemen outside your gate?
10 A. It was about 2.00 to 3.00 in the afternoon. 1500 hours.
11 Q. And why did you not dare approach those policemen standing
12 outside your gate?
13 A. We couldn't speak to them. It wasn't possible. It would be
14 dangerous. It would be dangerous to look them in the eye, let alone
15 speak to them.
16 Q. Thank you. Was the gate open?
17 A. Yes. At that time, they were open. During day-time we would
18 leave them open, at night we would close them. The whole neighbourhood
19 did the same thing, they would lock the doors at night.
20 Q. Thank you. Did the policemen go into your yard, into your house?
21 A. These ones, the three on this occasion, no, no, I apologise, no,
22 they did not enter my yard.
23 Q. And did you watch them standing outside your gate all that time?
24 A. After we went back home, we did not see them anymore, and we did
25 not venture out. There was a garage there and that's where we saw them.
1 When we were trying to get out of Januz Cana's house, we saw them, they
2 were at the garage. Then we went into our yard. They were not in my
3 yard; they were on the main road in front of the garage.
4 Q. Could you just explain, when you come in from the street, do you
5 come straight into the garage, the one you are talking about?
6 A. There is a sidewalk about 3 metres wide and then you can see the
7 gate to the garage.
8 Q. And where is the entrance gate relative to the garage?
9 A. About 1 to 1.20 metres from the garage.
10 Q. What kind of uniform were those policemen wearing?
11 A. Blue. All three of them. They were single coloured blue.
12 Q. How far were you from them when you saw them?
13 A. When I was going into my yard, I was about 2 metres from them.
14 Q. Thank you. Did they have any insignia on the uniforms?
15 A. No, nothing. Just uniforms, no emblems or insignia.
16 Q. And did they wear anything in terms of head-gear?
17 A. Police caps.
18 Q. What does that police cap look like?
19 A. The caps were similar to the military ones. The ones that they
20 used to have before. Not the ones that the traffic police wear.
21 Q. Thank you. Was that the same model of the cap like the one you
22 wore in the army?
23 A. Yes, yes, similar. The colour was different.
24 Q. Could you please tell me your date of birth.
25 A. I was born on the 13th of August, 1955.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I now call up P904. It's
2 already an exhibit.
3 Q. Witness, this B is the house of your father; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. And could you mark the house --
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, will you please
7 instruct me if I may continue using this drawing and ask the witness to
8 make additional markings, or do you want me to take a new blank
9 photograph for the new markings? What is better?
10 JUDGE PARKER: A blank would be better, yes.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then I would like the
12 65 ter document 275.
13 Q. Could you please just mark the house where you were in the
14 evening of the 2nd of April.
15 A. My close family stayed in the basement of my uncle's, which is
16 here. This is the entrance to the basement.
17 Q. Could you please listen to what I'm asking you to do. Could you
18 mark the house, your father's house, and put number 1 next to that one.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And could you please put number 1 next to it, or rather, in the
21 middle --
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. -- of the square, yes, thank you. Now, could you please mark
24 your uncle's house with number 2.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like you to mark Cana Januz's house and
2 mark it with number 3.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Could you please just put number 3 in there.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Now, I would like you to mark Naser Rudi's house.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And could you please mark it with number 4.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Now, I would like you to mark Dardan Riza's house? Very well.
11 And then if we look at this photograph, don't make any markings because
12 it's not on the photograph. Where is Dardan Riza's house? It's not on
13 the photograph, but is it to the left, to the right, behind the road,
14 behind the houses that we can see here, on this side, or on the other
15 side where we are?
16 A. It's on our side some 2, 3, 4, 5, the 6th house in our
17 direction -- house down in our direction, on our side.
18 Q. So it's opposite the street behind your house, the house that
19 belonged to your father and to your uncle, is that what you are trying to
20 tell us?
21 A. They are all in a row.
22 Q. Well, if they are all in a row, is it then to the left or to the
24 A. To the left.
25 Q. Behind house number 4?
1 A. Yes.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark: Could the speakers,
3 please, not overlap.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. So Behar Haxhiavdia's house, do you know where
6 that one is? Can we see it on the photograph?
7 A. No, it is not. It's his wife's family. He lives in another
8 neighbourhood, but his wife had sought shelter here.
9 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Gopalan.
11 MS. GOPALAN: Please could we briefly go into private session.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
13 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Now I would like you to mark Lulzim Vejsa's house.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you. Now, could you please mark it with number 5.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you to draw Dardan Riza's
8 A. In this direction to the left, but it can't be seen. It's to the
9 left, a bit higher.
10 Q. Thank you. Well, here where you put the red line, could you
11 please mark it with number 7.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. But inside the photograph. And I do apologise.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] This black part here, will we see
15 it on the photograph or not? Will it remain like this?
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] We can go on then.
18 Q. Could you please -- well, how far is this house?
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] for the record, number 7 --
20 JUDGE PARKER: You've already asked that, Mr. Djurdjic. The
21 witness has told you all of this about that house.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. The Krasniqi house, could you please mark that one.
24 A. The Krasniqi's house cannot be seen here. The Berisha's,
25 however, can be seen, the Krasniqis are further down. Not the first,
1 second, or -- the third one belongs to the Krasniqis. It's in this
2 direction, but it can't be seen.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Is this inside the photograph? I
4 need the assistance -- I need to know that.
5 JUDGE PARKER: I don't understand what you are asking,
6 Mr. Djurdjic. You are told that the Krasniqi house is not on the
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you can see the red
9 marking at the bottom of the photograph. I'm merely asking whether it's
10 visible, whether it will remain visible, whether it's part of the
11 photograph; and then we can mark it with a number or else we can just ask
12 him to describe and tell us that this is the direction in which the
13 Krasniqi house is. So whether this will be saved as part of the
15 JUDGE PARKER: It won't be saved where he has marked. For the
16 record, the witness has indicated the Krasniqi house is off the picture
17 on the bottom of the photograph. So it doesn't need to be marked,
18 Mr. Djurdjic.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Witness, sir, how far is your father's house from the Krasniqi
22 A. It must be around 60 metres. I'm not 100 per cent certain
23 though. 50 to 60 metres, approximately.
24 Q. Thank you. And now could you mark the police car that you saw.
25 Just put a dot where that car was.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Could you please make the dot a little bigger, and mark it with
3 number 8.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Apart from that car, while you were up
6 there, did you see anything elsewhere that place where you were standing?
7 I'm not talking about people.
8 A. No. I heard other voices, and I heard the voices of other
9 cars -- I heard, sorry, the sound of other cars. I heard cars that made
10 a louder noise, but I was not able to see them.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like you to mark the location where you
12 saw three policemen with another dot.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Now, could you please put number 9 next to it. Above the dot,
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me what uniform did those three police
18 officers wear? What kind of uniforms?
19 A. They wore hats. They had green uniforms on.
20 Q. Thank you. And were you able to see any other details on the
22 A. I can't remember. It was dark. It was pitch dark, and I can't
23 remember. I remember that there were three of them. There was the
24 flickering of the flames lasted only seconds, and then there was deep
25 darkness. And the wind was blowing in the direction of the flames.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you to mark with an X very
2 carefully the place where you were standing, but I don't want us to ruin
3 this photograph, so could you please just mark it very neatly and
4 carefully with an X.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you. And could you please put number 10 above it.
7 Number 10 above this X that you put in.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Excellent. Thank you very much. Now, I would like you to tell
10 me, I don't want us to ruin the photograph, the other people who came
11 into your yard, where were they? Where did you see them?
12 A. Here. Do you want me to mark it? That's the dot near that wall.
13 Q. Yes, but please -- thank you. I don't want you to ruin the
14 photograph. Mark it, but let's not ruin the markings that we already
16 Now, Witness, I didn't see whether you marked the location where
17 the other three policemen were or not.
18 A. Yes, here. Where the number 9 is.
19 Q. Please, is this the second dot that you put on the left?
20 A. To the left.
21 Q. Excellent. Then mark it with number 11.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you. Now, could you tell me, the other policemen that you
24 marked with number 11, when you saw them did you see what colour
25 uniforms --
1 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, that is not policemen. The witness has
2 said they were people. He was asked to mark where people were in his
3 yard. Do you want him to say whether they are police or not?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were policemen in uniform.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Now the records tells us. Thank you.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. But I wanted to ask you if you could see from the place where you
8 were what colour uniforms they were wearing?
9 A. Blue.
10 Q. Thank you. And could you please tell me, you say that you saw
11 Dragan Shipanoviq and Nenad -- I assume it's Nenad Raqeviq and two other
12 policemen exiting Cana's house. Can you tell me, where did they go out?
13 A. That is true. I saw four policemen there.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan.
15 MS. GOPALAN: I'd just like to point out that the corrections
16 that --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, we know that.
18 MS. GOPALAN: Okay. Thank you. Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: The point of the corrections is that the witness
20 says he is not sure about the names. He is sure there were four, but he
21 is not sure that they were the two names that you have mentioned. He
22 suspects it was them.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm not interested in
24 the names. I merely put them in for easier reference.
25 Q. So these people that you saw, I'm interested in the other part.
1 Where were they going to when they left? So these people that you say
2 that they were policemen in Cana's yard, why did you see them? They
3 passed through what?
4 A. They went out together with Januz Cana's daughter. Two were
5 holding her by the shoulders and were heaving her, and then they tore her
6 pyjamas apart. There were two following behind, one had a torch, an
7 electrical torch, and was showing it towards the tunnel which links to
8 the main road.
9 From one of the policemen, from the light of the torch one could
10 see that one of the policemen had a knife in his hand. Then they pulled
11 her by the hair and a scream was heard. She screamed in Serbian, she
12 said, "You killed my father." I was not able to see her father being
13 killed, but that's what she said, that her father had been killed.
14 Before the entrance to the tunnel, there was this scream.
15 However, when she went into the tunnel - and I remember because I was
16 very scared - I really heard an awful scream, just like, you know, the
17 screams that you get when you slaughter animals. And from that moment
18 onwards I just descended; I was unable to stay there because I felt very
20 Q. Witness, where is this tunnel on this photograph?
21 A. May I mark it? Do you want me to put a dot?
22 Q. Yes, okay.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you. And could you mark it with number 12.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you. And can you tell me, the numbers marked -- the
2 numbers 9 to 11, does this mark the wall between the yard that belonged
3 to your uncle and your father and Cana's yard?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you have to go out into the street in order to be
6 able to get into Cana's yard?
7 A. Only from the main road. There is no entrance.
8 Q. Thank you. I beg your pardon, but did I ask about
9 Afrim Berisha's house? To tell you the truth, I can't recall right now
10 whether I did or not.
11 JUDGE PARKER: No, you did not.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Afrim Berisha's house can be seen
13 very, very little. It's on the side. However, Naim Berisha's house, his
14 uncle's son, can be seen. Do you want me to mark Naim's house because
15 Afrim's cannot be seen here in this picture. Only a little bit can be
16 seen there.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So you can't see it at all?
19 A. You can see just a little bit. Only a little bit. Just a
20 corner. Do you want me to mark it?
21 Q. So could you please just mark the corner.
22 A. No need to mark. Yes, this bit can be seen. This belongs to the
23 uncle's house. The whole of it. Once Afrim's house cannot be seen, just
24 a bit of it.
25 Q. But where, where is that small part? I didn't really understand
1 what you were saying.
2 A. The corner that can be seen belongs to Afrim Berisha's house,
3 while the full house belongs to his uncle's son called Naim Berisha.
4 Q. I just don't understand what part of the picture are you
5 referring to, to the left, to the right, up, down?
6 A. Forgive me, but you asked about Afrim Berisha's house, and it's
7 off the picture. I was born here and lived there, but I can't see Afrim
8 Berisha's house there.
9 Q. Thank you. But you told me that only a little part was visible,
10 but if it's not visible, then it's okay. But in what direction was his
12 A. I mean this one which can be seen only a little bit, to the
13 bottom, towards the bottom of this picture. Only a tiny bit of the house
14 can be seen there.
15 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to tender this
17 into evidence.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned D00220, Your Honours.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we get again
21 65 ter 275.
22 Q. Witness, this first white house on the right-hand side, whose
23 house was that?
24 A. You mean this one here? Do you mean this one?
25 Q. Yes, yes, the white house. There is a roof covering two houses.
1 No, up there. You see the angle of the house and another house next to
3 A. Yes. This is Lulzim Vejsa's house.
4 Q. Will you put number 1 there, please.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you. And deep down behind that house we can see another
7 house. Whose house was that?
8 A. That was a coffee shop, a cafeteria.
9 Q. Please listen to me carefully, Witness. You've just told me that
10 a tavern was located in this house number 1?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you about the house at the top of the
13 picture, the roof of which we can see in the right-hand top corner.
14 A. Here, you mean?
15 Q. If you see that roof, put a mark there. To the extreme right, a
16 large house, the top of the picture.
17 A. This one here?
18 Q. Whose house was that?
19 A. Lutfi Nuci's.
20 Q. Thank you. Put number 2 there, please.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. What about the house right next to number 2, to whom did it
24 A. This was Lul Vejsa's house.
25 Q. Thank you. Put number 3 there, please.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Next to number 2 on the right there is a house with a roof.
3 Whose house was that?
4 A. His son's house, Enver's house.
5 Q. Please put number 4 on the roof of that house.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. To the right we see again another roof next to number 4. Whose
8 house was that?
9 A. This is a long garage. It's Xhemil Caka's.
10 Q. Thank you. Put number 5 there, please.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. In front of number 5, the roof that is four sided, whose house
13 was that?
14 A. This is Xhemil Caka's house.
15 Q. Thank you. Put number 6 there.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. The house next to number 5, to the right, whose house was that?
18 A. This is Fetah Kastrati's house.
19 Q. Seven.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And the house behind number 7?
22 A. This is Mat Buriqi's house. He is a Montenegrin. Mato Boric.
23 Q. Thank you. Put number 8, please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And what about house -- the house behind number 7, to the right
1 of number 5?
2 A. The two-story house, the big one you mean?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. This is Fetah Kastrati's brother's house, Ramiz Kastrati's house.
5 Q. Thank you. Mark it with 9, please.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Now, let's move to the other side of the street. The first house
8 in the street opposite the car, whose house was that?
9 A. With the red-tiled roof? Two families lived there. On the left
10 a Serb elderly woman lived there. On the right there was someone of the
11 Roma ethnicity, and he still live there is.
12 Q. Please mark the house of the Serb lady with 10, and the house of
13 the Roma with 11.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you. Now, let's move to your side of the street. Do you
16 see, opposite the car, this tiled roof?
17 A. It is between two houses.
18 Q. You see on your side of the street two houses one next to
19 another, both of them have a roof. Whose houses were they?
20 A. This is the new house of Januz Cana.
21 Q. Please mark it with a 12.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And the left one also belongs to him; right? Never mind then.
24 Now, to the right of the tree at the entrance to your yard, there is a
25 house with a tiled roof. What is that structure? Was that someone's
2 A. This is a small building. It was a garage.
3 Q. Thank you. What about the house behind this large roof?
4 A. This was a shop. It is a grocery shop.
5 Q. It's a bit deeper inside, behind the garage. If it was a grocery
6 store, tell us.
7 A. This was Xhevdet Muhaxhiri's.
8 Q. Mark Xhevdet's shop with 14, please.
9 A. Fourteen.
10 Q. And the roof below 14, who was the owner?
11 A. This is Xhevdet Muhaxhiri's house where he lived. It is his
12 house in fact, but he lived in America. Now he lives in Gjakove.
13 Q. Could you please mark it with 13.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Now, in the right-hand-side corner of the picture we see another
16 roof. Whose house was that?
17 A. This is Agron Nagavci's house.
18 Q. Thank you, will you put number 15 there, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. And what about the house at the bottom of
21 the picture with the roof, below 15?
22 A. Blerim Nagavci's, his brother.
23 Q. Will you put number 16 there, please.
24 A. There are four brothers living there. Two live in the front part
25 of the house, the other two live in the lower part of the house.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, when you go from 16 to the left, there is a
2 structure with a roof on it. Was that an outhouse, or did someone live
3 in there?
4 A. Well, I think it was a house, the number 16 was a house, yes.
5 Q. That's not what I asked you. You marked it already. But when
6 you go to the left, I want to be fair and to ask you about all the houses
7 with roofs. We see another roof, was that a residential building or an
8 auxiliary structure, an outhouse?
9 A. That was an auxiliary structure. They kept their food there.
10 They did not live there.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I would
12 like to tender this document.
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] May I now call up D002-5109,
16 THE REGISTRAR: And that, Your Honours, will be assigned D00221.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, could you tell me, which uniform design did you see that
19 night, the night of the 1st or the 2nd?
20 A. The blue one. This one here.
21 Q. Please put a circle around it, please.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And mark it with number 1.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Did you see any other design?
1 A. Yes, only three. This one here. It looks like it.
2 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned D00222, Your Honours.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, in the statement you gave in 2000 and in your
8 corrigendum, or rather, supplemental information of the 15th March, 2002,
9 you did not mention that anyone seized your documents; is that correct?
10 A. Can you repeat the question, please. I did not understand it.
11 Q. In your 2000 statement and in the supplement you made in 2002,
12 you did not mention that anyone asked for your documents, your IDs, and
13 that you had to turn them over when you were leaving Djakovica; right?
14 A. I can't remember. I know that I've told the truth and the truth
15 is that they did not allow anyone to proceed towards Albania without
16 handing over their documents. It could be that I did not mention it, but
17 that is the truth, that I had to give up my document, my ID. The other
18 documents that were in my flat, they are still there. The one that I had
19 on me on that day, I had to give it to them because otherwise I wouldn't
20 be allowed to go to Albania.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Witness, I have no
23 further questions for you.
24 Thank you, Your Honours. I have completed my cross-examination.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
1 Ms. Gopalan.
2 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I do have some re-examination. I
3 wonder if it's possible for the break to be taken now and for me to
4 resume with my re-examination after, or I could begin immediately as
6 JUDGE PARKER: You expect to take more than seven or eight
7 minutes, do you?
8 MS. GOPALAN: Yes, I do, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan.
15 Re-examination by Ms. Gopalan:
16 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. I just have a few questions for you today before you complete
19 your testimony. Now, sir, towards the end of the last session, Defence
20 counsel asked you some questions about your identity documents. You
21 said, and I quote.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. "... I've told the truth and the truth is that they did not allow
24 anyone to proceed to Albania without handing over their documents."
25 Sir, when you said "they did not allow anyone to proceed to
1 Albania," who were you referring to when you say "they"?
2 A. They means the two policemen who were stationed at that little
3 building that looked like a small shop.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about
5 the three policemen you were confronted by. You spoke about this in your
6 testimony today at page 33. You say that Januz Cana's wife and his son
7 saw you off to the gate, and that his son -- sorry, her son, Fatmir Cana
8 was not afraid but "We were afraid because we lived with fear." Could
9 you explain to us what you meant when you said you were afraid because
10 you lived with fear? What were you afraid of?
11 A. We were afraid of the police. The uniform instilled terror.
12 Q. And why is that, sir?
13 A. If you were not somebody in their eyes, they could play around
14 with you.
15 Q. And what do you mean by "play around with you"?
16 A. We were afraid that should we not stop, they would kill us.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, on that evening, what happened to
18 Fatmir Cana, if you know?
19 A. That day in the evening, in the late hours of the evening, it
20 might have been 1.40, 1.45, when I heard gun-shots coming from within his
21 house. I couldn't see anything. Everybody heard the gun-shots, not only
22 me. Throughout the neighbourhood we were able to hear shooting.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, do you know what happened to Fatmir Cana?
24 If you don't, we can move on.
25 A. I don't know anything. I know that he is not alive, but I did
1 not see anything. I didn't see what happened to Fatmir or Januz or
2 Ganimete, the only thing I know is what befell Shpresa.
3 Q. Now you mentioned Januz and Gamimete, could you remind us who
4 they are, Januz and Ganimete?
5 A. Januz was the head of the household, a teacher by profession.
6 Ganimete was his wife. Shpresa is the eldest daughter, Fatmir being
7 their son.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, after the incident in April that you
9 described, did you see Januz and Ganimete again?
10 A. I saw Januz in the evening when I knocked on the door to ask him
11 to leave the house. Because by that time police cars were being -- were
12 audible and police started emerging in the main road even though they had
13 not started coming into our yards. And I told them to leave the house.
14 Januz emerged from the window to say he would not abandon his house, if
15 people were to come they would be welcome, I haven't done anything to
17 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, when you returned to your neighbourhood in
18 June, did you see Januz and Ganimete again?
19 A. I returned on the 25th of June. We arrived late in the evening,
20 in the afternoon, in the evening. However, the next day on the 26th we
21 were unable to get into the Vejsa's because of the foul smell, but we
22 were unable to see anything. We got in, but we saw a charred house. And
23 the whole house, every room was full of tiles because the beams had
24 burned down and everything had collapsed.
25 I haven't seen anything with my own eyes, but I heard there were
1 two bodies found inside. I heard that the bodies had been retrieved
2 before the 25th, but I don't know -- two of them -- two of those bodies
3 were inside the room. People were able to see them, but I myself never
4 saw any bodies. That's the truth.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, just to clarify your answer, I would like
6 to ask you about Januz and Ganimete specifically. I think you testified
7 earlier that they were your neighbours. Did you see your neighbours in
8 their home after you returned to your neighbourhood? So this was in
10 A. No, no, I did not. Neither did I see them alive, nor did I see
11 their bodies. I saw their grave-site though, the grave of the four
12 family members.
13 Q. And where was this grave-site of the four family members?
14 A. Their grave-site was near --
15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I think that I was patient enough
17 regarding Ganimete and Januz. The witness responded, he said everything,
18 and now we go back to the beginning and the witness said that he didn't
19 know. I think that the question -- that the answers were quite specific
20 and I -- nothing in my cross-examination has given rise to this kind of
22 JUDGE PARKER: The last point, Ms. Gopalan.
23 MS. GOPALAN: I would simply refer counsel to page 33, I believe,
24 where reference is made to the events that took place in the Cana
25 household where the individuals I've asked about were mentioned.
1 JUDGE PARKER: The point is that the questioning in
2 cross-examination does not warrant you going now into this extended
3 evidence about these people. Is there something you would like to put
4 about that?
5 MS. GOPALAN: Simply that I can stop at this stage, Your Honours.
6 I believe that --
7 JUDGE PARKER: Very good, that will be a satisfactory response.
8 MS. GOPALAN:
9 Q. Sir, you were also asked some questions about the -- your
10 neighbourhood, and you marked a number of locations on the neighbourhood,
11 if you recall. Do you remember making those markings on the photographs
12 that set out your neighbourhood?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Thank you. If you know, sir, based on the condition of the
15 houses on that photograph that you saw, are you able to tell us when that
16 photograph is from, if you know?
17 A. Up until the 2nd of March, the whole neighbourhood was intact.
18 However, these pictures are ones which I haven't seen before. I saw them
19 only today for the first time, but that's reality. Everything was burned
21 Q. And what was it that happened on the 2nd of March up to which the
22 neighbourhood was intact?
23 A. The 2nd of March?
24 Q. It could be a mistranslation. Let me just read out what the
25 transcript says. It says:
1 "Up until the 2nd of March, the whole neighbourhood was intact."
2 Is that what you said? Is March correct?
3 A. The neighbourhood was intact on the 2nd of March, but from the
4 1st or the 2nd of April, things changed and that's where the change
5 occurred throughout the neighbourhood.
6 Q. Thank you, sir.
7 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I have no further questions for the
8 witness but one issue to raise with you. An exhibit that was marked
9 during testimony today does not seem to reflect the full markings made by
10 the witness, and with your leave, I would like to call up the exhibit
11 again so that the complete marking can be reflected in the document that
12 was tendered into evidence. I'm referring to P905 where the marking E
13 which related to the vehicle that Your Honours requested to be marked has
14 been omitted from the admitted exhibit.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Yes.
16 MS. GOPALAN: Could I call up --
17 JUDGE PARKER: It's on the screen.
18 MS. GOPALAN:
19 Q. Sir, I would like you to make a marking on the photograph on the
20 screen before you. You've already made this marking before, but it
21 wasn't captured correctly. Now, I believe you placed an E in the past to
22 where --
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. -- you identified the location of the vehicle that you saw.
25 Could you please place an E to mark the location of the vehicle that you
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Could you please mark an E in that location as
6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Do you now tender that --
8 MS. GOPALAN: Yes, please, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE PARKER: -- in that completed form? It will be received.
10 It will be received as Exhibit P905, so that it is complete.
11 Mr. Djurdjic.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I don't
13 want you to be too strict but perhaps I -- I didn't mark it correctly or
14 I didn't note it down correctly. I thought it was P905, that's what I
15 noted down and not 904 because in 904 I have A, B, C and in the other one
16 I have D, and E. If that could be checked. I don't have any objections.
17 JUDGE PARKER: We are in complete agreement, Mr. Djurdjic. We've
18 just corrected Exhibit P905.
19 Sir, you'll be pleased to know that that concludes the questions
20 for you. The Chamber would like to thank you for being able to come to
21 The Hague and for the assistance that you have been able to give. We
22 will be looking at this in due course when we've finished all the
23 evidence, but we are grateful for the patience that you have shown and
24 the assistance you've provided.
25 You may, of course, now return to your normal activities and the
1 court officer will show you out.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE PARKER: Are you taking the next witness, Ms. Gopalan?
6 MS. GOPALAN: I'm not, Your Honours. The next witness will be
7 taken by Ms. D'Ascoli.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, the next witness is
10 Mr. Beqir Krasniqi, and his evidence relates to paragraph 25 to 32 of the
11 indictment. And I think he is ready and can be brought in.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Do you solemnly declare that the evidence you will
17 give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, I do.
19 WITNESS: BEQIR KRASNIQI
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please sit down.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. D'Ascoli, you have some questions for
24 Mr. Krasniqi?
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes.
1 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
2 Q. Good morning, witness.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record.
5 A. Yes, I am Beqir Krasniqi.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. And could you also state your date and place of
7 birth, please?
8 A. I was born in 1939, on the 5th of January. I was born in
9 Pusto Selo.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Where are you currently living?
11 A. I live in Pusto Selo.
12 Q. What do you do, what is your occupation?
13 A. I am a farmer.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Krasniqi, yesterday during proofing, you
15 indicated sometimes you have difficulty understanding proper Albanian
16 when spoken fast or with complex words. So I would please ask you, just
17 interrupt me and ask me to repeat or to go slower if you feel that you
18 haven't understood something, and the same applies for the Albanian
19 translation that you hear, if there's any problem with that, please just
20 let us know. Okay.
21 Mr. Krasniqi --
22 A. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.
23 Q. Did you provide a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of
24 this Tribunal in January 2000?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. And did you also provide a second statement to the
2 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in May 2008?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review both statements recently;
5 were these statements read back to you?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And I understand you wanted to make some corrections to this
8 statement. So I will take you through these corrections. Okay? And I
9 can start with the statement of 2000 which is the 65 ter number 05136.
10 Mr. Krasniqi, at page 3 --
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: And for the record this is in both versions in the
12 English and the B/C/S.
13 Q. You indicated that you have a problem with what is described in
14 paragraph 5, in particular with the colours of the uniforms mentioned
15 there. Do you remember?
16 A. Yes, exactly.
17 Q. And can you -- are you able to tell the Court what the problem is
18 with regard to this paragraph and the colours?
19 A. Well, I don't -- I'm not able to show you the colours. I cannot
20 see them very well. But if you can show me them, I can point them out.
21 Q. What do you mean --
22 A. I cannot name them very well.
23 Q. Okay. So the problem is with the name of colours or with the
24 colours as you see them?
25 A. Yes, exactly. I can point them out if I see them.
1 Q. Okay. So you are able to recognise colours, but you have
2 difficulties --
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Okay. And you have difficulties with what?
5 A. Yes, I am able.
6 Q. Okay. Because -- if I can help you, in proofing you indicated to
7 me that you have trouble understanding, for example, the meaning of the
8 words blue or green that were mentioned in that part of the statement; is
9 that correct? Is that the problem?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: I see my learned colleague on his feet,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, I don't understand this
15 examination about the circumstances of the proofing. I simply don't
16 understand. To my mind it would be better to admit the statement into
17 evidence and then to ask the questions about it to clarify. Now the
18 witness is being asked questions that relate to the proofing session, and
19 then he is providing answers.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: May I reply, Your Honour?
21 JUDGE PARKER: You may, Ms. D'Ascoli.
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, that's what I'm going to do, but when the
23 witness was reviewing the statement, he had had a problem specifically
24 with this paragraph. I felt it was fair to point it out; and I'm later
25 going, of course, like, into the proper questioning. And I will show
1 some photographs to him to overcome this problem. But I felt I had to
2 address this issue.
3 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has noted that the witness is not
4 satisfied that the paragraph reflects his true understanding, and it's to
5 do with the colours that are shown of uniforms and that this may be
6 partly to do with his visual recognition and partly to do with the
7 language difficulty of which we've been aware in this trial about the
8 colours blue and green. Now so far that's what we know.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you. I can move on.
10 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, there are then a number of small corrections that
11 you made, and I will just -- in order to save time, I will read them and
12 ask to confirm the corrections. Okay.
13 At page 4, paragraph 7, for the record. Do you remember there's
14 a sentence which says: "I gave the money to my uncle." And you said
15 that it was Tahir who gave the money to your uncle; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Okay. In the same paragraph there is a sentence which mentions
19 "... Ali, happened to know one of the Serbs who was a policeman
20 from Klina. The person from Klina knows the name of the policeman?"
21 Is that correct that you indicated that you didn't know whether
22 in fact this person from Klina knew the name of the policeman? Is that
23 correct, sir?
24 A. I didn't know that.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Same paragraph, last sentence:
1 "Ali left us and went in the direction where the women and
2 children had gone."
3 Sir, is it correct that you indicated that you don't remember
4 about Ali going away? That's correct. I don't remember.
5 Q. Okay. The last point, it's at page 6, paragraph 5, you indicated
6 that your uncle Hadji Jemin Krasniqi was 88 years old, and not 84 as
7 indicated; is that correct?
8 A. 84.
9 Q. You said that he was 88 years old. 84 is what is written in the
10 statement, sir, which is the correct one?
11 A. He was 88 years old on the night when he was killed.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, briefly, the second statement, this is from
13 May 2008, and it's the 65 ter number 05137.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: First of all, there's just a material error,
15 Your Honours, this is at page 2, paragraph 3. The date of the end of the
16 paragraph should be the 31st of March, 1999 clearly, not 2008. This is
17 just a material error.
18 Q. Then page 3, paragraph 12, Mr. Krasniqi, this paragraph says that
19 you believe Ali knew the police officer because he was released unlike
20 all others.
21 Now, Mr. Krasniqi, you indicated that this sentence "he was
22 released unlike all others" refers to the fact that you heard the Serbian
23 police officer telling Ali to go away -- just a second, let me finish.
24 But you did not know and you did not pay attention to whether he actually
25 left or not; is that correct?
1 A. I did not see him because we had to look down and that's the
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. The very last point at page 3, paragraph --
4 A. [No interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you, sir. At page 3, paragraph 24, you said that you do
6 not remember exactly how the weapon AK-47 looks like; is that correct?
7 Is that correct, sir?
8 A. That's correct, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Krasniqi, with these corrections that we now made
10 to your statement, are you satisfied that the information in these
11 statements is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
12 A. To the best of my knowledge and understanding, yes, because I saw
13 things with my own eyes. I was there for three hours when all those
14 things happened.
15 Q. Thank you, sir.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, now I'd like to tender into evidence
17 both the witness statements, please. And the statement of the year 2000
18 is the 65 ter number 05136.
19 JUDGE PARKER: That will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00908, Your Honours.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you. And the statement from 2008 is
22 65 ter number 05137.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be assigned P00909, Your Honours.
25 MS D'ASCOLI: I can now provide a summary of this witness
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: The witness is from the village of Pusto Selo in
4 the Orahovac municipality where he has lived for most of his live. He
5 testifies about the attack by Serb forces on Pusto Selo on the
6 31st of March, 1999.
7 On 26 March 1999 many people fled to the witness village from
8 different places. The fleeing people stayed with the villagers of Pusto
9 Selo in their houses. Some stayed also in the local school and the
10 witness had about twenty people from Petkovic and Mirusa staying with
11 him. The fleeing people told the witness that they were forced by Serb
12 forces to leave their houses and to go to Pusto Selo.
13 On the 31st of March, 1999, Serb forces entered Pusto Selo. The
14 witness and other people fled only to find themselves surrounded by Serb
15 tanks. The Serb forces approached the fleeing group and ordered them to
16 separate men from women and children. Women and children were told then
17 to give away their valuables and go to Albania. The men were gathered
18 together by Serb forces and then brought close to a brook. There those
19 Serb forces opened fire on those men and executed them. The witness was
20 amongst those men, and he managed to survive by falling into the brook.
21 Some bodies fell on him.
22 The witness describes the circumstances surrounding the massacre.
23 Several of his male relatives died in that massacre. The witness helped
24 with the burial of bodies on the first days of April 1999. He states
25 that they buried in Pusto Selo 106 bodies of men aged between 16 and 90.
1 And this is the end of the in-court summary, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI:
4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I now have some questions for you related to these
5 events in Pusto Selo in the end of March 1999. Mr. Krasniqi, in your
6 statement of 2000 at pages 3 to 5 when you describe in detail the
7 circumstances in which the massacre of the 31st of March occurred, you
8 always refer to or use the expression "the Serbs." Mr. Krasniqi, can you
9 please tell us to whom you refer by saying "the Serbs"?
10 A. I mean the police.
11 Q. And who were the perpetrators of the massacre you describe?
12 A. The massacre was committed -- those ones who were in uniform.
13 They were all policemen. There were about 40 of them or more. They were
14 20, 22 years old, and even older.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you. And, Mr. Krasniqi, will you be able to
16 identify on photographs the uniforms of the Serb forces that you saw in
17 Pusto Selo on the 31st of March, 1999?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. Okay.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to sit closer to the
21 microphones. We can hardly hear him.
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: Mr. Krasniqi, would you mind sitting a little bit
23 closer to the microphones, please. Thank you. That's better.
24 Q. I'm going to show you some photographs, Mr. Krasniqi. Can I
25 please have on the screen the Exhibit number P831?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
2 MS. D'ASCOLI:
3 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, are you able to see the pictures on the video?
4 A. [No interpretation]
5 Q. Okay. That's good. Is any --
6 A. Yes, I can. This one here --
7 Q. You recognise it already. Just a second.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: Maybe could the usher provide him with a pen.
9 Thank you.
10 Q. Could you mark --
11 A. Yes, please. I don't know how to write though.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI:
13 Q. Just a mark, just whatever. But can you please --
14 A. I'm illiterate.
15 Q. -- can you please answer a question? Just before that, can you
16 answer a question? Is any of these colours, or any of these patterns, is
17 any of these similar to the colours or the uniforms that you saw in
18 Pusto Selo on the 31st of March?
19 A. This one, yes, but the ones that were at the school, I did not
20 see them. I saw the ones that were close to us, but not the ones that
21 were at the school.
22 Q. No, no, of course. Let's just talk about what you saw and the
23 forces that you saw at any point during the day and before the massacre.
24 So you said that some -- like, one of -- or some of these
25 pictures are similar to uniforms that you saw. Could you mark with any
1 sign the picture that you think -- or the pictures that you think are
2 similar to what -- to the uniforms that you saw in Pusto Selo at the end
3 of March 1999?
4 A. Here? Can I mark here?
5 Q. Yes, please. Perfect. That's okay.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, can I please tender this exhibit
7 into evidence as marked by the witness.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be assigned P00910, Your Honours.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: And can I please call the exhibit number -- the 65
12 ter number 02586. Can we enlarge the picture, please.
13 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, again, if you can please look at these men in
14 uniforms, and can you tell me if any of these men are wearing the same
15 uniforms that you saw when -- just before the massacre or anyway when you
16 were there in Pusto Selo on the 31st of March, 1999, and you -- sorry, if
17 you can indicate whether you recognised any of these uniforms as the same
18 one that you saw on that day of the massacre?
19 A. I cannot say anything about these. I don't recognise these.
20 Q. You don't recognise the colours and the uniforms of these men?
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
22 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The witness has answered.
23 JUDGE PARKER: No, he hasn't, Mr. Djurdjic. His answer was
24 unclear, and it's being corrected to clarify it.
25 Carry on please, Ms. D'Ascoli.
1 MS. D'ASCOLI:
2 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm not talking about these gentlemen here in the
3 pictures. I'm just asking you whether you are able to recognise the
4 colours and the type of uniforms that they are wearing. Just the
5 uniforms that they have and whether any of these uniforms reminds you of
6 the ones of the perpetrators of the massacre in Pusto Selo on the
7 31st of March? Which is your answer, Mr. Krasniqi?
8 A. I'm not sure about these. I cannot tell them apart. I think the
9 other ones were lighter.
10 Q. What do you mean by "the other ones were lighter"?
11 A. I don't understand. I am sorry.
12 Q. Okay. No problem. I will try to be simpler. Can you see well
13 the pictures on the screen?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Can you distinguish these four men in uniforms?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And I'm not concerned about, you know, their faces, but only
18 about what they are wearing. Okay?
19 A. The clothes they are wearing.
20 Q. Exactly. I'm just concerned about that, exactly. Now, if you
21 can think about the uniforms or the Serb forces that you saw doing the
22 massacre, the perpetrators of the massacre in Pusto Selo; so if you can
23 think about those, what you remember, and if you can tell me whether what
24 they were wearing matches what is in the picture, any of these four men.
25 A. Well, I don't understand. I can see what they are wearing, but I
1 don't know what you mean by distinguishing them. And if you want me to
2 show what kind of clothes they are wearing, I can tell you. But
3 otherwise I don't understand.
4 Q. I am sorry, I was just meaning whether what you see here in the
5 picture looks like what you saw in Pusto Selo on those men, on the Serb
6 forces, who were the perpetrators of the massacre, that's what I mean.
7 If you can help us with that, otherwise we move forward, there's no
9 A. They are not the same. They are not the same.
10 Q. Okay. Maybe I can show you a simpler picture.
11 JUDGE PARKER: I think we've run out of time, Ms. D'Ascoli.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yeah, that's right. Okay.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Krasniqi, we have to stop now because of the
14 time, and we continue -- we continue on Monday. An officer of the court
15 will assist you over the break and will arrange for you to be back with
16 us on Monday when we will continue with your evidence and hear what you
17 need to say.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry about the interruption, but we have limited
20 hours that we can use this courtroom. So we must now adjourn, and we
21 continue on Monday.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th of
25 June, 2009, at 12.00 p.m.