1 Monday, 13 July 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 MR. BEHAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I just had a quick
6 order of business before we deal with the next witness, which my
7 colleague will be doing. I just wanted to indicate that with respect to
8 the decision of this Chamber on the 2nd of July of this year, and that
9 was the decision that related to exhibits that the Prosecution added to
10 its exhibit list from the two RFAs, 1755, 1756, the Chamber had asked the
11 Prosecution to notify the Chamber once the English translations were
12 available and once those had been uploaded into e-court. I can indicate
13 that I've been advised that they are now available, that all of those
14 English translations are now available, and that they have been uploaded
15 into e-court.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If that is the case then there is no
17 reason why they should not be included into the exhibit and it be
18 identified as an exhibit. Is that correct?
19 MR. BEHAR: Sorry, that they be identified as ...?
20 JUDGE PARKER: That they -- we will worry about it later.
21 MR. BEHAR: Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE PARKER: There's a lady waiting.
23 MR. BEHAR: Thank you.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon to those in Pristina. We are ready
25 to hear the evidence of a witness whom we will call K58. Is what I am
1 saying being translated to the witness? I see nodding of agreement.
2 Could the witness please read the affirmation on the card that is now
3 given to her.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: WITNESS K58
7 [Witness appeared via videolink]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be speaking closer to
10 the microphone because we didn't hear her very well.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. I have heard enough to indicate that
12 the witness did read the affirmation. If she sits she will be closer to
13 the microphone. So could the witness -- could you please sit down now.
14 Thank you.
15 Now, there are going to be some questions for you, and I will ask
16 Ms. D'Ascoli to commence with those questions.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
20 Q. Witness, can you hear me?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Good afternoon.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. I will begin by showing you a document which contains some
25 personal information related to you. This is the 65 ter number 02477.
1 MS. D'Ascoli: Please do not put it on the screen because it will
2 be tendered under seal.
3 Q. Can you just read it for yourself and could you confirm whether
4 the information in this document, meaning your name, your date and place
5 of birth is correct.
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. You now tender that under seal, do
10 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours. This is the pseudonym sheet.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01078 under
14 MS. D'ASCOLI:
15 Q. Witness, I will be referring to you as K58 in order to protect
16 your identity. K58, did you provide a statement to the
17 Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY in February 2000?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And before appearing for testimony today, have you had the
20 opportunity to review this statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And are you satisfied that the information contained in this
23 statement is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
24 A. Yes, everything is true and correct. I have shown what I saw
25 with my eyes and what happened to me.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I seek to tender the witness
3 statement and it is the 65 ter number 02473, which is the unredacted
4 version to be tendered under seal.
5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01079, under
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you.
9 And, Your Honours, I should point out that the date of birth
10 indicated in the statement is inaccurate, is not correct, while the
11 correct one is the one indicated in the attestation by the
12 Presiding Officer pursuant to Rule 92 bis which is at the beginning of
13 the English version of the statement and is -- also the correct one is
14 also the one reflected into the pseudonym sheet that I've just tendered.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: There is also a redacted version of the witness
17 statement to be tendered as a public exhibit and this is the
18 65 ter number 02550, and I would seek to tender this too, please.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01080,
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you.
23 Q. K58, did you also testify before this Tribunal in the
24 Milutinovic et al. case in November 2006?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And did you recently have the opportunity to review your previous
2 testimony in that case?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And having reviewed this testimony, if today you were asked the
5 same questions would you provide substantially the same answers and
6 testify in the same way?
7 A. Yes. It's 11 years now since that time. Maybe I have forgotten
8 something, but I will do my best.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I'd like to tender also the
11 transcript into evidence. This is 65 ter number 05091.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Does that need to be under seal?
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: No, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01081.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: I can now provide a brief summary of this
17 witness's evidence.
18 The witness is from the Decani municipality and describes the
19 attack by Serb forces on the village of Beleg
20 municipality, on or about 28th of March, 1999. She describes those
21 forces and the shelling and shootings all around the village.
22 The witness, together with approximately 100 other persons, was
23 forced by policemen and paramilitaries out of the house where they were
24 staying in Beleg. He she witnessed men being shot and beaten up. The
25 witness reports that men and women were separated in the yard of the
1 house. They were then taken in groups of four or five to the basement of
2 the house, where they were all searched for money and other personal
4 The women were then put in two rooms of a house for the night.
5 During the night, the witness saw that Serb forces took some young girls
6 out of the room and heard one girl telling her mother that she had been
7 raped. The following day, all the villagers were ordered to go to
9 of villages before arriving to Kukes on the Albanian border. En route
10 they were stopped a number of times by Serb forces and asked for their
11 identity documents and passports. Many men were at that point missing
12 and never came back, amongst them the witness's husband.
13 And this is the end of the in-court summary.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI:
16 Q. K58, as you know, the Chamber already has before it your previous
17 testimony and your statement. Therefore, I'll just have a few questions
18 for you today just to clarify some parts of your evidence. At page 3 of
19 your statement, in both the English and the B/C/S version --
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: And for the record -- for the English version I'm
21 not referring to the numbering of pages in e-court, but to the actual
22 number of pages in the statement, so that both versions are -- have the
23 same numbering.
24 Q. -- so at page 3 of your statement, last paragraph, you say that
25 you were approximately 100 people taking shelter in Nezir Vishaj's house
1 in the village of Beleg
2 A. They were civilians, children, elderly people, women, all of them
3 were civilians. We were there because there was shelling all day long.
4 We were staying at Naim Vishaj's house, all of us staying in that house.
5 Q. Can you tell us the ethnicity of these 100 people who were with
6 you there in Nezir Vishaj's house?
7 A. They were Albanian, all of them. We were all Albanians.
8 Q. And could you briefly describe the --
9 A. Children, elderly people, women, civilians, all of them.
10 Q. Thank you, Madam. And can you please describe the conditions in
11 the house in those days that you spent there with these other people.
12 A. We all were staying in one room. Shelling was going on all day.
13 We didn't dare go out even to the yard. We were all staying in that
14 room. We were staying at Naim's house. On the next day the policemen
16 Q. Madam --
17 A. -- 9.00.
18 Q. -- thank you for that. When describing how all these people were
19 forced out of Vishaj's house, you mentioned that you saw Naim Vishaj
20 being taken to a shed by a policeman. This is at page 4 of the statement
21 for the record. Did you ever see Naim --
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. -- Vishaj again after that moment?
24 A. That's correct. They came into the yard, the Serb police, and
25 forced Naim to order all of us to leave the house. And they shot
1 2 metres away from me, Nezir Vishaj, they shot him on his cheek. Then
2 after him, Daut Alickaj was the second who was shot dead. And I saw him
3 when he fell down on the ground --
4 Q. And, Madam --
5 A. -- I saw the police taking away Naim Vishaj and took him to the
6 shed, cow-shed.
7 Q. And after that moment, did you ever see him again or is he alive
8 to date, Naim Vishaj?
9 A. No, I didn't see him anymore. But I heard from his wife, she
10 said, I heard fire-arms and they had killed him. But I didn't
11 eye-witness his death. But I know from his wife that he was shot dead
12 because she had heard the shots. I had my children. I didn't want to
13 have anything to do with others. I was worried about my own children.
14 Q. Okay. Madam, in your statement, this is still at page 4, you say
15 that you were taken to a basement of a house where there were already
16 about 20 people. Can you tell me by whom were you taken there?
17 A. That's correct. The policemen came and took us out of Naim's
18 house and took us to another house, to a basement. There were some
19 elderly people, they were paralyzed, they couldn't walk, and they were
20 beating that old man with a stick. And I heard his daughter telling the
21 policeman, He is paralyzed, he can't walk. And they shot at him. Then
22 they took us to a basement where there were some 20 persons from all over
23 the village of Beleg
24 Q. And again, which were -- which was the ethnicity of these other
25 20 people?
1 A. Albanians, Albanians. They had taken them in -- from other
2 houses, like they did with us but before us.
3 Q. And --
4 A. All of them were civilians, all elderly people.
5 Q. Madam, you mentioned that it was the police who took you there.
6 Did you also see other forces around?
7 A. Yes. They were mixed. Some were policemen, some were
8 paramilitaries. They wore two sorts of uniforms, paramilitaries -- I
9 don't know how to say it because a long time has passed and I have
11 Q. Yes. Can you just tell us what these other -- what the
12 paramilitaries were doing at that moment?
13 A. They took us, all of us, to that basement. When the basement was
14 full of people --
15 Q. Was the -- excuse me, Madam --
16 A. -- they took us out of it to a large meadow.
17 Q. And I was just asking you --
18 A. They kept there until dusk.
19 Q. I was just asking you -- because you mentioned that the policemen
20 came and took you out of Naim's house and to this other house to the
21 basement, and I was just asking you what the paramilitaries were doing at
22 that moment, if you remember, given that you mentioned these other forces
23 as well together with the policemen.
24 A. They took us from that house to that basement that I mentioned.
25 All of us were gathered in the basement. After that, they took us out
1 from the basement and took us to a meadow, and we were together in that
2 meadow, men, women, children. Then they started to separate men from
3 women --
4 Q. Just a second, Madam. So were the paramilitaries operating
5 together with the policemen? This is what understand from your answer.
6 Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, yes, together. They were -- all the time they were working
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. And, Madam, at page 5 of your statement you
10 say that you were also checked together with other three women, and you
11 already described this in your testimony in the Milutinovic case. This
12 for the record is at pages 7488 to 7490. What I wanted to ask you,
13 Madam, is what you saw on the white piece of cloth --
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. -- that you mentioned in your previous testimony in the
16 Milutinovic transcript. And this is pages 7491 to 7492 -- if you can
17 tell us which type of objects or items you saw on that cloth?
18 A. They checked the men first --
19 Q. Yes, we have that --
20 A. -- they started with the men --
21 Q. Did you just hear my question?
22 A. Then they continued with us, women. They took us four by four or
23 four by five --
24 Q. Madam, excuse me. Did you hear my question? I was asking you in
25 particular with regard to the piece of cloth that you mentioned in your
1 previous testimony and I was asking you if you could describe to us what
2 you saw on that piece of cloth when you were in the basement to be
4 A. You mean the policemen? They had some insignia which said
6 Q. No. I think there's a problem with the translation. I was
7 referring to the moment in which you were taken to the basement together
8 with three other women to be checked. And when you testified some time
9 ago in the Milutinovic -- please, just listen to my question and then
10 reply. Thanks. When you testified before, you say -- you said that when
11 you were brought to the basement to be checked you saw a piece of cloth
12 lying on the floor, where you saw like many objects. And I was just
13 asking you if you can describe to us what you saw on that piece of cloth.
14 That was all -- in my questions.
15 A. Now I understand you.
16 Q. Okay. Good.
17 A. When we entered that basement to be checked, there was a white
18 piece of cloth, and on that there was money, there were IDs. When I
19 entered there, I handed over of my own free will whatever I had on me
20 because I didn't want them to check me, to search me.
21 Q. Thank you --
22 A. Seeing that there were such objects on that piece of sheet, I did
23 the same, and then I went out and the other three women were there to be
25 Q. And, Madam, you mentioned IDs. Could you give us an approximate
1 number of how many there were, if it was few or many, just an
3 A. Approximately, because I didn't of course count them, I would say
4 there were about 20.
5 Q. And was your ID taken away or did you give away your ID?
6 A. I didn't have my ID on me because it was burned. When my house
7 took fire, my ID was burned, so I didn't have any. But those who had
8 theirs were taken -- were deprived of them.
9 Q. Did you see that yourself? Did you see that other people had to
10 give away their IDs?
11 A. Yes, I saw the IDs on that piece of sheet that I mentioned and
12 there were people there before me, so that's why I thought. There were
13 money -- there was money, jewellery, IDs on that piece of sheet.
14 Q. Okay. Madam, at page 6 of your statement you mention
15 Mushk Jakupi's son as one of those who would come and pick up young girls
16 in the room where you were staying during the night. Now, can you tell
17 us how you could recognise him and how many times you saw him during that
19 A. I recognised Mushk Jakupi's son when the police came and took us
20 to that meadow, and he was on a tank and my husband told me -- he
21 recognised him first and he said to me, This is Mushk Jakupi's son. And
22 then I looked at him and I could see that it was him --
23 Q. Yes --
24 A. -- and he would turn the tank towards us or towards another group
25 sometimes. He didn't want us to look at him, as a matter of fact.
1 Q. And, Madam, do you remember you also mentioned having seen him
2 during the night in which you were staying in a room of a building of a
3 house and when you saw people coming in and taking young girls to -- for
4 cleaning, in your statement you also mention having seen Mushk Jakupi's
5 son in that occasion. So I was asking you, if you could clarify for us,
6 how could you see him or when or how many times you saw him during that
7 night? I understand how you could recognise him because it was your
8 husband pointing his name to you.
9 A. Yes. During the night it was dark, of course, but they had
10 torches. There was several times that they came, but once -- on one
11 occasion the torch light fell on him and that's when I saw him and I
12 remembered that I saw him during the day as well. And I assumed it was
13 the same person at night.
14 Q. Thank you. So during the night you say it was on one occasion.
15 Is it correct, was it only on one occasion that you saw him during that
17 A. Just once.
18 Q. Okay. Thanks for that clarification.
19 A. I just saw him once. I couldn't tell you how many times he was
20 there before because --
21 Q. No problem, that's fine, Madam. Thank you.
22 A. -- it was only on that occasion that the torch light fell on him.
23 Q. Now, let's move to the moment when you were told by Serb forces
24 to go to Albania
25 And for the record, this is at page 7 of the statement.
1 Madam, can you describe this convoy in which you were, how you
2 were moving towards Albania
3 many people were on the move to Albania
4 A. The next day around 9.00 they came and told us to leave and go
5 towards Albania
6 and help us. All of us were Albanian, women, children, disabled
7 people --
8 Q. And --
9 A. -- and elderly. Everybody was civilian. All of us were
10 civilians. And they forced us to go to Albanian.
11 Q. And you say that "they came and told us to leave." Can you
12 specify who do you mean by "they"?
13 A. The police, the police and military. They were mixed. They came
14 in the morning and told us to go to Albania.
15 Q. Okay. And -- yes, can you --
16 A. We couldn't look at them. We were so afraid to even look at
18 Q. Can you also -- could you give us an approximation of how many of
19 us, how many villagers, Albanians, as you said -- sorry, women, children,
20 disabled persons, Kosovo Albanians, how many were you like on the move
21 towards Albania
22 JUDGE PARKER: You're asking over the witness's evidence.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I couldn't hear --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were so many people. There
25 were about 200 or 300 people. I couldn't count them. There were many.
1 MS. D'ASCOLI:
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. And, K58, my last question, at page 7 of your
3 statement there is a list of names of missing persons, persons you knew
4 of. Can I ask you if they're still missing to date and where were these
5 people from?
6 A. Sixty-six men went missing in Beleg and I all knew -- I knew all
7 of them, especially the ones that I mention in my statement
8 Arif Mazrekaj, his son Jetmir Mazrekaj, Sahit Mazrekaj, Hasan Mazrekaj,
9 Hajdar Mazrekaj, Neke Binakaj, Mehmet Tolaj; I knew all of them. There
10 were 66 men from the village; they are still missing and we don't know
11 where their graves are, where they have been buried. We don't have their
12 bodies to bury them again properly.
13 Q. And what about your husband, did he have the same fate?
14 A. My husband is on the same list. He's still missing. He's the
15 66th person on that list.
16 Q. And, Madam, given that in your statement there's a shorter list
17 which of course doesn't include all these 66 men, do I understand you
18 correctly that all the persons listed in your statement are also still
19 missing and that they were from Beleg?
20 A. These people that are still missing are from Drenoc that I have
21 included in -- on this list. But the others are from Sllup, Beleg,
22 Carrabreg. I did not know all of them.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. The ones that I knew are on the list that is included in my
1 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much, Madam. I don't have any further
2 questions for you and thank you for having answered my questions.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I don't have further questions for
4 the witness at this stage.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you so much.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Now there will be some further questions for you.
8 This will be Mr. Djordjevic.
9 MR. DJORDJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
10 ask - and you have a written submission - for Madam O'Leary to do the
11 cross-examination. Thank you very much for your indulgence.
12 JUDGE PARKER: The next questions will be asked by a lady,
13 Ms. O'Leary.
14 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Ms. O'Leary:
16 Q. Good afternoon, K58. Can you hear me?
17 A. Good afternoon. Yes, I can hear you.
18 Q. Thank you. I don't have a great deal of questions, but I do want
19 to clarify a few things, in particular with your statement that you gave
20 in February of 2000. When you gave that statement in February of 2000,
21 were other people present at that time other than those representatives
22 of the Office of the Prosecutor?
23 A. I'm sorry, but I can't remember.
24 Q. Okay. That's fine. But this statement was taken in
25 February of 2000, so it was within a year of the time of the events
1 you're speaking of; correct?
2 A. I think that's correct, but I'm sorry I have forgotten the dates
3 and this is because of the traumas we suffered during the war.
4 Q. Okay. Do you recall when you finished giving the statement that
5 it was read back to you in Albanian, and then you signed as being a true
6 recollection of the events; correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And then you were visited again by the Office of the Prosecutor
9 on 9 September 2004
10 A. I apologise again because I can't remember the dates. There have
11 been many people who came to us and I've forgotten how many of them.
12 Even if you ask me the birthdays of my children now maybe I wouldn't be
13 able to tell you all of them. There were so many people who came and
14 asked us questions and took statements. I can't tell you.
15 Q. Okay. And specific dates aren't as important, but I'm basically
16 wondering if you had a chance to review your statement in 2004 in
17 anticipation of testimony?
18 A. You mean now?
19 Q. No, in September 2004 you would have first seen probably an
20 Albanian version of the statement.
21 A. I don't know. I apologise again. I don't know.
22 Q. That's okay.
23 MS. O'LEARY: If we could have P1079.
24 Q. If you could look at that exhibit actually. And I believe in the
25 English version and perhaps on the Albanian version on the first page,
1 there's a signed declaration actually. If you could take a quick look at
2 that at the very beginning of your statement.
3 A. Yes, I did sign the statement.
4 Q. And at that time you corrected your birth date; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then do you recall after that time reading through it that a
7 couple of years later, right before you testified in the Milutinovic
8 trial, you again met via videolink to review your statement with some
9 people from the Office of the Prosecutor?
10 A. I apologise, I can't remember. The only thing I remember is that
11 the date of birth was wrong and that's it. I can tell you about the
12 things that happened to me during the war, everything about that, but I
13 can't remember the dates.
14 Q. Okay. Then maybe let's look at how many times you've appeared
15 via videolink or you've dealt with videolink. At least twice you
16 testified in the trial of Milutinovic et al., correct, via videolink?
17 A. This is the second time.
18 Q. Okay. And before each of these times of testifying, you had a
19 meeting via videolink with the Prosecutor; is that correct?
20 A. You mean this time?
21 Q. I actually mean both times, but yes once was last week on
22 the 8th.
23 A. Yes. I think so. I'm not a hundred per cent sure, but I think
25 Q. And both of those times you had some changes to make, slight
1 changes, to your statement?
2 A. It's been 11 years. I'm sorry I can't remember.
3 Q. I understand about 11 years, but I'm actually just asking about
4 last week. You had approximately ten changes to your statement; is that
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I'm sorry, but I don't remember we
7 had changes, and today I didn't go through any changes with the witness
8 besides the birth date. What was contained in the supplemental
9 information sheet was information or issues that we discussed, but it
10 wasn't changes to the statement.
11 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour,
12 but I would suggest that the Defence sees that what she has stated in her
13 supplemental information sheet that we'll put to her are actually changes
14 and modifications to the statement.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Proceed, Ms. O'Leary.
16 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
18 MS. O'LEARY:
19 Q. So -- okay. Thank you very much. We'll go through them one by
20 one and see if they're amendments to your statement or just rather
21 clarifications, just to clear a few things up if that's okay. The first
22 one that was discussed in your supplemental information sheet -- and if
23 you want to see it we have it available. Unfortunately it's only in
24 English, but I can read to you the relevant portions. It would be
25 D004-2832 as document number.
1 But in regard to some of the supplemental information notes that
2 you had, you stated that by "Serb forces" you mentioned you meant
3 "policemen." And this is in regard to your statement page 2 of the
4 English version, paragraph 6?
5 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'm sorry, Your Honours, but it might not be easy
6 for the witness to understand the references to page and paragraph. So
7 maybe just for the sake of completeness if you could identify -- if my
8 learned colleague could identify more specifically the piece of evidence
9 she is referring to in the statement. Thank you.
10 MS. O'LEARY: Yes, Your Honour.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were police forces.
12 MS. O'LEARY:
13 Q. Well, if we look at page 2 in the English, I believe page 2 in
14 the Albanian as well of your statement, and this is P1079, and if it's
15 not broadcast because that is the unredacted version --
16 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest you read the passage in the
18 MS. O'LEARY: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE PARKER: And then read what you have that has been put to
20 you as the additional information.
21 MS. O'LEARY: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE PARKER: And see then whether the witness will confirm that
23 they're different and why.
24 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you.
25 Q. So I'm reading from page 2 of the English and it says:
1 "I fled my village because the Serb forces were positioned in our
2 village ..."
3 And now at this time we received a supplemental information sheet
4 that says:
5 "The Serb forces she mentions in this paragraph were
6 policemen ..."
7 A. They were Serb policemen.
8 Q. But before you said just "forces." Do you differentiate to say
10 A. The Serb police and military forces were the ones that forced us
11 to leave the village.
12 Q. Can you describe to me what you mean by "policemen" when you use
13 the word "policemen," ma'am?
14 A. They were wearing regular police uniforms and they had "police"
15 written on their arms. We were in so much stress and traumatised at the
16 time, we couldn't look at them properly.
17 Q. And what colour were the uniforms that you would identify with
18 the policemen?
19 A. The usual that the police wear. They were blue camouflage. I
20 don't know how else to describe them. The regular uniforms worn by the
22 Q. Do you remember testifying in Milutinovic et al. and describing
23 the police uniforms as one solid colour, like a greyish colour, the usual
24 uniforms police wore. They had written on their arms "police" in
25 Serbian Cyrillic letters?
1 A. They were solid colour and the letters were Cyrillic, yes. But
2 they were police uniforms, and I saw the Cyrillic letters on the arm. We
3 couldn't buy those kinds of uniforms, and we couldn't see --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We couldn't see the uniforms in
6 great details in the kind of situation we were.
7 MS. O'LEARY:
8 Q. What do you mean by "we couldn't buy those kinds of uniforms,"
9 who couldn't buy those kinds of uniforms?
10 A. I meant we couldn't look at them properly in detail what kind of
11 uniforms they were because we didn't dare to look at them in the eye. We
12 didn't dare.
13 Q. So would you say at this time, though, ma'am, that the police
14 uniforms were camouflage or one solid colour like greyish?
15 A. The policemen were wearing solid-colour uniforms. The other ones
16 had camouflage uniforms with patterns. Some of them were green with
17 patterns. The policemen had solid-colour uniforms. But as I told you, I
18 was worried about my children. I couldn't just look in detail what kinds
19 of uniforms that were wearing.
20 Q. And just a second ago you said "the other ones had camouflage
21 uniforms with patterns." Who were the "other ones"?
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Could I ask my learned
23 colleague to clarify a bit -- being more specific with the witness.
24 Because you start off my talking -- by referring to a paragraph which in
25 the statement refers to sixth months before the events, and now we are
1 going I think into the year 1999 -- I mean, I'm not sure. It's just that
2 the witness could be confused if you don't clarify when she saw which
3 type of uniforms. Thank you.
4 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you. And specifically I was going to get to
5 when she specifically saw which ones. I was just looking for a range of
6 uniforms the police had as far as she was concerned.
7 Q. You described an insignia that you had seen on the arms of the
8 police; correct?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. They had insignia there. I don't know
10 exactly what they -- what the letters said. They were Cyrillic. I could
11 only assume.
12 MS. O'LEARY: Well, can we look possibly then at P327.
13 Q. Now, ma'am on that first page --
14 A. Approximately it resembles this one and this one, approximately.
15 Q. And when you say "approximately," you're looking at the first
16 page of P327; is that correct?
17 A. There is a book here in front of me, number 5 and number 7.
18 Q. So you saw both number 5 and number 7. When did you see number 5
19 and number 7?
20 A. I can remember the insignia a little bit. They were on the arm
21 there. I can remember the Cyrillic letters, but what the whole word
22 said, I'm not sure.
23 Q. When did you see number 5, ma'am?
24 A. 1999, when the police forces entered Naim's house and took us
25 from there.
1 Q. And when did you see number 7, ma'am?
2 A. I think it was on the same day. I wouldn't be sure. I'm only
3 speaking approximately, but I think it was on the same day.
4 Q. Can you look at page 2 and tell me if you've ever seen any of the
5 insignias on page 2.
6 A. I can't remember these ones. I only remember the letters on the
8 Q. And you testified previous in Milutinovic at T7477 and 7478 that
9 you know some Cyrillic words; is that true?
10 A. Not words but the letters. I can recognise them that they are
11 Cyrillic. I know that the letters are Cyrillic. For example, the ones I
12 can see here now are in Cyrillic, but I don't know what the word says.
13 Q. Well, ma'am, in Milutinovic et al. you were asked specifically
14 about the arm badge insignia and you said:
15 "I have an eight-year education. We know some Serbian language.
16 I know some Cyrillic words. I can discern them. I cannot understand,
17 and I cannot speak."
18 MS. O'LEARY: I'm sorry, I didn't receive a translation on that.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Please, I want to say
20 this. I have been to school for eight years. I don't speak Serbian. I
21 recognise some letters in Cyrillic. We learned a little bit of it in
22 year four, when I was in year four. I can remember some of the basic
23 words such as good afternoon, good evening, and so on, but not more than
25 Q. So regarding number 7 on that page of P327, are you recognising
1 the letters or are you recognising the word?
2 A. No, I'm only recognising the Cyrillic letters. This -- only this
3 I know, but I don't know how to read or to understand.
4 Q. Well, number 7 -- or, excuse me, number 6 right next to it is
5 similar, not knowing much Cyrillic myself. Could it have potentially
6 been those letters?
7 A. Really, I don't remember. You can imagine the situation I was
8 in. I couldn't lift my head and look at them closely. I only know that
9 there was a writing on their arms and that the writing was in Cyrillic
10 letters. I had seven children to look after from six months to 12 years,
11 so they were all around me and that was the only concern I had at that
13 Q. So, ma'am, is it your testimony today that they had an insignia
14 on them with Cyrillic letters, but you don't know what it said?
15 A. I am repeating, I don't know what the word meant. I only know
16 that the letters were Cyrillic.
17 Q. Thank you, ma'am. Did you see these uniforms you've just
18 described in Drenovac as well or just in Beleg?
19 A. Only in Beleg. In Drenoc we didn't have any contacts with the
20 police - we women I mean - only men had.
21 Q. When you left Drenoc, you said in your testimony previously it's
22 because the police told the men to leave, so then the whole village left.
23 How do you know that?
24 A. The men went out in the street and they told us that the police
25 had ordered them to leave Drenoc. That's how it came that all of us with
1 tractors, whatever we had, left the village.
2 Q. Which men told you that?
3 A. The men of the village, of Drenoc village, those men who were
5 Q. Did you see the conversation with the police?
6 A. No, I didn't see the men talking with the police, but the men
7 came to us, to us women and children, telling us to leave the village.
8 And that's how we acted, that's what we did.
13 MS. O'LEARY:
14 Q. And, ma'am, we'll be careful to protect your identity not to
15 mention any relationships. If you want to, we can go into private
17 But was Mehmet Mazrekaj someone who had told you about this
18 conversation with the police?
19 A. Yes, yes. There were many men from the village. Mehmet was one
20 of them.
21 Q. And did the police tell the men to leave due to expected NATO
23 A. I don't know that. I only know that the men said to us to leave
24 the village because the police had told them to do so. This I know from
25 the men who came to us, and we, all of us, as you know, left the village.
1 Q. But no one ever told you why you were leaving the village or what
2 the police had said?
3 A. No, I don't know what the police told the men, but I do know that
4 we left the village and went to Beleg. When we went to Beleg, Drenoc
5 village was burned. We saw the flames coming out of the houses of
7 Q. Did you know that Mehmet Mazrekaj was a witness in this case?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you follow his testimony or hear about it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. If he gave an answer that said that:
12 "That day the police arrived at around 8.00 in the morning.
13 Some -- they expelled some villagers and they ordered us to vacate the
14 village as soon as we possibly could because of NATO air-strikes they
16 Would you believe that?
17 A. I don't know what he said here. I'm telling you what I saw and
18 what I heard. I don't know what other people may have said here. Mehmet
19 didn't say this to me. I never heard him say such words.
20 Q. Okay, ma'am. So from that time, you left Drenoc and went on to
21 Beleg. How did you come to stay at the home of Naim Vishaj?
22 A. The population of the village, of Beleg, came out and they took
23 us to their houses. So our population spread out in the village. My
24 turn came with my children to go to Naim's house.
25 Q. Do you know how Naim's house was selected as the place to go?
1 A. This is how it came. My turn came to go to that house.
2 Q. What do you mean when you say your turn came?
3 A. We stayed at Naim's house. There was nowhere else I could go.
4 He was someone I knew. I recognised him from before, an acquaintance of
5 mine. As I said, the population spread out in different houses. It was
6 not only myself. There were other families that went to Naim's house.
7 Q. And you said there were approximately a hundred people at Naim's
8 house; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, yes. It was not only myself and my children. There were
10 many other families from Drenoc, from Beleg. There were several
11 families. I could say that we were approximately 100 persons
12 accommodated there.
13 Q. And you and your husband and your children were actually from
14 Glodjane; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were there other --
17 A. Yes. We are from Gllogjan.
18 Q. And were there other families from Glodjane at Naim's house?
19 A. No, only myself and my children.
20 Q. And, ma'am, you said today that you stayed in the house, you said
21 this in prior testimony as well, that there was shelling, constant
22 shelling going on. Approximately what day was this, the 27th of March?
23 A. On the 27th of March, I think, or the 28th. I cannot be
24 100 per cent sure of the exact date. I only know that shelling went on
25 all along the day.
1 Q. And this shelling, do you know, was it in-fighting between the
2 KLA and Serb forces?
3 A. I don't know. I only know that there was a lot of shelling, so
4 much so that we couldn't dare to go out in the yard. Shelling came from
5 all sides.
6 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And you said that the next day the police came
7 to your house; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct. It was about 9.00 when the police came and
10 Q. And when you say "entered," they entered into the yard; is that
12 A. Yes, into the yard.
13 Q. And you say they first asked about the number of displaced
14 families in the house and where they were from?
15 A. They called the host, Naim, and asked him, Who is staying with
16 you? He said, I have people from Beleg and Drenoc. The police asked
17 him, Is it true that people are -- that these people are here from these
18 villages? He said, Yes.
19 Q. But you've stated, ma'am, that you don't understand Serbian. Was
20 the officer speaking Albanian?
21 A. No. Naim spoke with them. When Naim came back to us, I heard
22 him saying that, It's true that these people are from Beleg and Drenoc.
23 Now I don't remember exactly whether Naim said this or whether I heard
24 it. This I have forgotten. And they took the men out and lined them up.
25 It took them out of that room and ordered them to go out into the yard,
1 and there they lined them up.
2 Q. Ma'am, I want to go back just a few seconds. Earlier today you
3 said they "forced Naim to order all of us to leave." Did Naim tell you
5 A. The police had told Naim to take all the men out in the yard.
6 Naim came in and told the men to go out. The police looked at the men
7 and then they let them go, and then the men came back to the house. On
8 the next day, they came again and entered and they forced us to leave the
9 house, to go outside.
10 Q. Yes, ma'am, we'll get to the next day, but I want to finish with
11 this conversation quickly that happened on that morning. You state in
12 your statement you were scared because you were from Gllogjan and the UCK
13 headquarters was in the village of Gllogjan
14 say he was not from Gllogjan; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. I told my husband that the police had told
16 Naim so and so, and Naim had told the police that people are from Drenoc
17 and Beleg. Being from Gllogjan, I was afraid for my husband, telling him
18 when he went outside not to say that he was from Gllogjan because afraid
19 that something bad might happen to Naim for not having told the police
20 that my husband was from Gllogjan.
21 Q. In your testimony you stated something similar at T7472 you said:
22 "I told my husband to tell Naim that he was from Drenoc for Naim
23 not to have problems with the police ..."
24 Is that correct?
25 A. I said to my husband, Say you are from Drenoc, not from Gllogjan.
1 Now I don't remember whether I told Naim or my husband, but I remember
2 very well that I told him to deny that he was from Gllogjan, not to
3 mention Gllogjan, but to say he was from Drenoc.
4 Q. Ma'am, why did you tell him not to mention he was from Glodjane?
5 A. I said this because I was afraid the police might cause some harm
6 to Naim, because Naim didn't mention Gllogjan. And I didn't want any
7 harm to come to this person, to Naim. That's why I was afraid they would
8 do something bad to Naim if he -- if they found out that we were from
10 Q. Ma'am, why would it be bad if you were from Glodjane?
11 A. Because in Gllogjan there were KLA and I was afraid Naim would
12 suffer something if they found out we were from Gllogjan. The KLA
13 headquarters were in Gllogjan, and I didn't want to cause any harm to
14 Naim, even though we were all civilians as I said. We had nothing to do
15 with the KLA, but I was still -- I was afraid.
16 Q. But it was your belief initially that the police were there to
17 look for UCK; is that correct?
18 A. No, no, no. There was no reason for them to do that because
19 there was no KLA there. The KLA was in Gllogjan. I was only afraid that
20 being from Gllogjan and having Naim accommodating us in his home, I was
21 afraid something might happen to him. As I told you earlier, we were all
22 civilians, men, women, children, elderly people.
23 Q. Ma'am, I'm not saying that your husband or anyone was in the KLA,
24 actually. What I'm saying is that you were telling your husband to say
25 he was not from Glodjane because you were afraid that the police were
1 looking for KLA?
2 A. No, I told my husband, Don't say you are from Gllogjan because
3 Naim told the police that the people in my house are only from Beleg and
4 Drenoc. And since my husband was from Gllogjan and given that Naim
5 didn't mention it, I asked my husband not to mention Gllogjan. What else
6 can I say? How best can I explain to you? I'm telling you, I didn't
7 want Naim to suffer because of that.
8 Q. Ma'am, how many men were in the house at that time when the
9 police came that morning?
10 A. To -- what can I say? I don't know exactly -- the exact number.
11 There were about 20, I would say about 20.
12 Q. And you say that they returned the next day?
13 A. The police came back on the next day and entered Naim's house at
14 about 9.00 in the morning, and they forced all of us to leave the house
15 and go outside in the yard. And they started shooting and killing us.
16 The first one was Naim -- Nezir Vishaj, and they killed him -- I think
17 they shot him on his cheek. The second one was Daut Alickaj. He too was
18 killed. He fell on the ground immediately. I saw that with my own eyes.
19 We came out as we were, without properly dressed. Some were not
20 having -- wearing shoes, some were -- as we were staying in the house.
21 Q. Ma'am, was it Naim or Nezir who was shot in the cheek?
22 A. Nezir was shot by the police when he was going out at the
23 entrance, at the door.
24 Q. And you mentioned today that you had heard from Naim's wife that
25 she heard shots from the shed, I believe it was, after Naim had been
1 taken that direction; is that correct?
2 A. They took Naim afterwards. Wait a little, I'll explain to you.
3 We all went out. First Nezir Vishaj, they shot him and killed him. Then
4 the second one was Daut Alickaj, he too was killed on the spot. Then
5 they took Naim, and this I saw with my own eyes, took him in the
6 direction of the shed. They killed him, but I didn't see him being
7 killed. I only heard his wife saying that Naim was killed and that she
8 had heard the shots, but I didn't see the exact moment that he was
10 Q. Did his wife see the moment that he was killed?
11 A. No, no. She only heard the shots, the fire-arms, and that she
12 thought he was dead.
13 Q. And at this point then, the rest of you are taken to another
14 house; is that correct?
15 A. They took us to another house in another basement.
16 Q. And you had mentioned today about some people - and it was
17 plural - being paralyzed. I had understood previously only one woman as
18 being paralyzed.
19 A. Yes, that's correct. There was a woman who was paralyzed, she
20 was staying at Naim's house, and she couldn't walk. When we were forced
21 to go to this other house, to this basement, they beat this woman. Her
22 daughters told the police that she's paralyzed and cannot walk. This
23 woman I knew that she was paralyzed. I don't know about the others
24 because I couldn't -- didn't check. But this woman I saw and I knew that
25 she was paralyzed.
1 Q. And this was Nezir Vishaj's wife; correct?
2 A. Yes, she was the wife of Nezir Vishaj, this paralyzed woman, the
3 one who couldn't walk.
4 Q. Now, there was some conflicting accounts between your previous --
5 your statement and your testimony about the white cloth that was put out
6 and whether you were the first person there or the first person in your
7 group. But I think that you somehow resolved that now in correcting your
8 statement. And in the note that we got you stated:
9 "When she was taken to the basement the witness saw that on the
10 white piece of cloth there were all the valuables from people who were
11 checked before her ..."
12 That's correct?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. But now you've actually added that there were ID cards on this
15 sheet too; correct?
16 A. I didn't change anything. I simply remembered one more detail,
17 because I simply added there -- I haven't changed anything. I remembered
18 this now. I remember that there were IDs. There was money, there were
19 valuables, but it's not that I have changed or altered anything. And you
20 know, it may happen that one forgets something when you recount such
21 horrible stories, but then you may remember it afterwards.
22 Q. But that's what I want to make sure. You didn't remember the ID
23 cards in 2000 or 2004 or 2006; correct?
24 A. I didn't remember because I was shocked. Even now to this day I
25 don't feel completely restored. We are still undergoing therapy. I have
2 Q. I understand, ma'am, and I do appreciate you recalling the best
3 of your recollection, but I'm just asking why the ID cards suddenly came
4 to you now, this time.
5 A. Because I remembered when I entered there, the basement, I saw
6 the IDs. And I heard some say that, They took away our IDs. So when I
7 entered the basement I saw that on that piece of cloth, on that white
8 piece of cloth, those IDs and then I remembered.
9 Q. But would you say your memory is better --
10 A. And when we were going to Albania --
11 Q. Ma'am, would you say your memory is better now or back when you
12 gave the initial statement?
13 A. I remember very well that there were IDs, and I know that when we
14 were going towards Albania
15 over the IDs. And we told the police that we don't have them, that they
16 were taken away from us in that basement.
17 Q. And, ma'am, you've said today that you gave away your jewellery
18 and money before -- well, you've said prior that it was before they asked
19 you, and today you said the words of your free will. Is that correct
20 that you saw the white sheet on the floor and you put your items on that
21 white sheet without being asked?
22 A. Yes. When I entered, I told you that there were four of us. I
23 was the first of the four women who entered. And once I entered and when
24 I saw the things I mentioned in the -- on that piece of cloth, I handed
25 over of my own free will what I had on me. And they said, You go now.
1 And then I left behind those three other ladies. I was afraid they would
2 have searched me and I didn't want that. That's why I surrendered
3 everything I had.
4 Q. But nobody --
5 A. They checked -- they searched even my children.
6 Q. Ma'am, no one ever said, Give us what you have from money and
8 A. No one said, but I knew since they asked us to go down to the
9 basement -- there was a reason for that. I saw the things lying on that
10 piece of sheet. That's why I didn't want them to search me and that's
11 why I handed over whatever I had to them myself.
12 Q. Thank you, ma'am. But I'm wondering why then under oath you were
13 asked, Did you do this all of your own accord? And you said:
14 "No, no, no. They said, 'Give us what you have from money and
15 jewels -- jewellery.'"
16 And that was in your Milutinovic testimony. Why did you say that
18 A. Let me explain to you. Please don't ask me the same questions
19 over and over again. I will explain. I entered there with a group of
20 four or five. I was obliged to give them what I had because that's why
21 they asked us to go down to the basement. I simply didn't wait them to
22 search me because I was scared, and I handed over whatever I had. I
23 didn't want to have them -- I wanted to be done with it. I wanted to go
24 back to my children. And please, please don't ask me the same questions.
25 I was really scared. And even now when I remember them, I'm not in a
1 very good position to give you an answer. So please don't ask me again.
2 I don't feel very well, and I think I will lose control of my emotions.
3 Q. Well, ma'am, I think we're nearing a break and maybe this would
4 be a good time, Your Honour, then if we take a break you could rest for a
6 JUDGE PARKER: What we will do now is have an interruption of the
7 questioning. That will give you an opportunity to have a drink and rest
8 a little, and we will resume in half an hour. The time --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, but please, I would
10 kindly ask you, Your Honour, to use your power and not let the lady ask
11 me over and over again.
12 JUDGE PARKER: The lady is trying to understand clearly what it
13 is that you are describing. Sometimes your answers are not altogether
14 clear; that's why she asks you a second time. If you can try and
15 understand that and help us by trying to make your answers clear. But
16 have a break now, and we will resume --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you then. And we'll return in half an hour.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.
22 JUDGE PARKER: We hope you're feeling a little better now.
23 Thank you.
24 Now Ms. O'Leary will just finish her questions.
25 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Thank you, ma'am. We'll try to be as short as possible so we
2 don't have to stay too much longer. I understood that nothing was said
3 to you today. What I was asking you actually was why in a passage from
4 T7488 to T7490 in Milutinovic there was the exchange where you actually
5 said that they were speaking to you in Serbian. What I'm wondering is:
6 Did anyone at any time speak to you in Serbian there?
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.
9 Could the witness be asked to repeat the answer because we could
10 not hear most of it.
11 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, we've only just connected to you so
12 that we missed what you were saying at the beginning. Would you mind
13 repeating that.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me about where we
15 were taken to be searched?
16 MS. O'LEARY:
17 Q. When you put your items on the white sheet, did anyone speak to
19 A. Before I went there to be searched, I asked the women that had
20 been there earlier and -- what had happened to them, and they told me
21 that they had been searched and everything that they had had been taken
22 away from them. So when my turn came to go with the other women, I did
23 not wait for them to tell me to give them the things or to let them
24 search me. I just gave them all the things I had.
25 Q. Thank you. I understand that, ma'am. So after you put your
1 things on the white cloth, you were not searched?
2 A. I was not searched because I handed over everything I had. As I
3 told you, my friends had -- the other women had told me earlier that they
4 had been searched. So when my turn came, I went there first, I was in
5 first. And I just gave them everything because I wanted out of there to
6 go to my children immediately. When I went back to my children, they
7 came there and searched my children.
8 Q. And, ma'am, the items that were put on the white cloth were
9 returned the next day by a policeman; correct?
10 A. Golden things were returned. They brought some of the jewellery
11 there, golden things, and they said, Whose are these things here? And
12 the women went there and took each of them what was theirs.
13 Q. And this was a policeman; correct?
14 A. He was a policeman, yes.
15 Q. And then that evening you describe there were girls being taken
16 out of the room, and the room that you were in was on the ground level or
17 in the basement?
18 A. It was on the ground level. It was like a hallway or a
19 living-room, I would say, of that family home.
20 Q. But it was evening and it was dark; correct?
21 A. Yes, it was dark.
22 Q. And, ma'am, don't say any names right away --
23 A. We were told to go to two different rooms. We were divided into
24 two. Some of us were taken to this room I mentioned. The others were
25 taken to the shed.
1 Q. Thank you, ma'am. Without saying any names right away, would you
2 be able to name any of the girls who were taken out if we went into
3 private session?
4 A. I didn't know them --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. -- none of them --
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. -- they all were new to me.
9 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And you said the men coming in needed torches,
10 so they were shining with flash-lights. It was probably difficult to see
11 anything behind them; correct?
12 A. Because there was no power, they came in with their torches and
13 they asked for the young girls to come out because they needed them for
15 Q. And you had initially in your statement at page 7 had described
16 this as two paramilitaries, and I believe in your transcript of testimony
17 prior you also said at T7476 there was one by the door and one looking at
18 the girls. Is that correct?
19 A. That's correct. One of them was at the door and the other one
20 came inside.
21 Q. And you even named one of them in your statement as
22 Mushk Jakupi's son; is that correct?
23 A. That's correct. I recognised Mushk Jakupi's son the third time
24 they came when the torch light fell on his face, that's when I recognised
1 Q. What ethnicity is Mushk Jakupi's son?
2 A. I don't know him. I have heard that he's Albanian. I didn't
3 know him personally. I heard this from other people.
4 Q. Who did you hear that from, ma'am?
5 A. I heard this from the men. They mentioned his name, and they
6 said that he was committing crimes. I heard people say that
7 Mushk Jakupi's son was committing crimes, but I didn't know him. In
8 Gjakova he was committing those crimes.
9 Q. And I think you mentioned that on October 10th, 2006, we have a
10 proofing note where you were speaking with the Office of the Prosecutor
11 and you stated the son of Mushk Jakupi is mentioned on pages 5 and 6,
12 referring to your statement, Mushk Jakupi is known by his bad reputation
13 in the region. He is a police officer. The son was paramilitary.
14 Did you mean that his son had a bad reputation or he had a bad
16 A. I had heard this about both of them. This is all things I heard
17 from other people, though, as I said. Everybody was saying that
18 Mushk Jakupi's son was doing those things.
19 Q. And what was he wearing when you saw him, when the light passed
20 by him?
21 A. Camouflage, green camouflage uniforms -- uniform, the same
22 clothes he was wearing when he was on the tank.
23 Q. And did you consider him then to be police or paramilitary?
24 A. To be honest, I just saw him wearing those clothes, that kind of
25 uniform, and I told you what I was told by my husband. I don't know
1 further than that.
2 Q. Well, the reason I ask is because you have referred to him as
3 being paramilitary twice now, once in your statement when you're
4 discussing the people who came to take the girls out as paramilitary, and
5 then in that proofing note as the son was paramilitary.
6 A. He had green camouflage uniform. The police had solid blue
7 uniforms. And I just assumed that the people who were wearing that other
8 kind of uniform were paramilitaries. And this is only my assumption,
9 approximate assumption.
10 Q. Well, also in the -- in regards to the sexual assault and taking
11 the girls out of there, you had made a note in this note of 2006 where
12 you said:
13 "While the paramilitaries were the ones soliciting the girls, the
14 following day the police were still in the village ..."
15 A. That's correct. I heard the girl with my own eyes -- with my own
17 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you repeat the question,
19 please. I didn't hear it.
20 MS. O'LEARY:
21 Q. Sure. I was quoting actually from a note taken in your proofing
22 statement of 2006 that says:
23 "While the paramilitaries were the ones soliciting the girls, the
24 following day the police were still in the village ..."
25 But that sentence would indicate pretty clearly that it was
1 paramilitaries taking the girls out that night. Was that your intention?
2 A. To tell you the truth, I recognised Mushk Jakupi's son only once.
3 And I don't know about the other times. I couldn't tell you whether they
4 were policemen or paramilitary because I couldn't see their uniforms.
5 Q. And I believe that's what you say now in the note that was taken
6 this last week is that it was dark and you couldn't -- you said:
7 "The witness could see Mushk Jakupi's son only one of the times
8 he went into the room to pick up the young girls. She was able to see
9 and recognise him because of the flash of light ..."
10 You also say:
11 "She does not remember very well, and it was dark in the room."
12 A. That's correct. It was dark, that's true, it was dark. But the
13 flash-light just passed on his face when he was looking for the girls,
14 and that's when I recognised him. The other times, I don't know whether
15 he was there or not. I couldn't recognise any of them.
16 Q. And in your prior testimony at 7477 you said:
17 "We could not raise our eyes to see who they were. We were very
18 afraid. However, I know that they entered, they came in, and they took
19 the girls away ..."
20 So you did not see the girls being taken away by the men?
21 A. I saw the girls being taken away from that room. They left the
22 room, but I couldn't see who took them. They were taken out of there by
23 force, and they were telling them, You have to come to do some cleaning
25 Q. But you didn't have opportunity to see who the people were taking
1 the girls out of the room; correct?
2 A. Could you repeat the question again. I couldn't hear it very
4 Q. I just wanted to confirm that you couldn't identify who took the
5 girls out of the room then, other than seeing Mushk Jakupi's son at one
6 point; correct?
7 A. I couldn't identify any of them, whether they were policemen or
8 paramilitaries, because it was dark.
9 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And the next day you stated in your statement
10 that two paramilitaries came and told you to leave. And this was on
11 page 7. Is that correct?
12 A. The next day, two of them came in and they told us to leave the
13 place and go to Albania
14 Q. And you used the word "paramilitaries" in your statement; is that
16 A. They were paramilitaries because they had green camouflage
17 uniforms. As I said, I assumed they were paramilitaries. I don't know
18 what else they could be.
19 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And when you left then, do you remember the
20 route that you took to Kukes?
21 A. Yes, I remember. We went from Beleg to Carrabreg, and then
22 Rastovice, Hereq, Gjakove, Zhur, and then to Albania.
23 Q. And had you been --
24 A. We were stopped several times en route.
25 Q. And you took that route because you were escorted by the police;
1 is that correct, ma'am?
2 A. I did not see them because I was on a lorry and I couldn't see
3 outside. There were so many of us on that lorry, but I heard the men say
4 that they are escorting us. I did not see them with my own eyes,
5 however, because the lorry was packed full and it was covered so I
6 couldn't see anything. I heard the men say that we were being escorted.
7 Q. You heard that you were being escorted by the police, but did you
8 see the paramilitary groups that stopped you?
9 A. En route -- no, I couldn't see them from the lorry because, as I
10 told you, the lorry was covered and we couldn't see outside. Only the
11 driver spoke with them.
12 Q. Okay, ma'am. But you discussed just a few moments ago that the
13 paramilitaries were stopping you along the way to check identification;
14 is that correct?
15 A. I did not see them. I don't know. I just heard of this. The
16 convoy was stopped several times, but whether it was stopped by the
17 police or the paramilitaries, I don't know. It was the driver who
18 communicated with them all the time.
19 MS. O'LEARY: I think we're supposed to take one pause here
20 quickly to get the transcript fixed.
21 JUDGE PARKER: We will pause a moment if your transcript has gone
22 as well.
23 MS. O'LEARY: It has, Your Honour.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE PARKER: We'll be able to start again very shortly. Sorry
1 to keep you waiting.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honour. I can
4 JUDGE PARKER: There is a technician working on the problem at
5 the moment. It's apparently affected our whole building, so we'll just
6 have to wait a little longer. Sorry about that.
7 We're able to recommence I believe, Ms. O'Leary.
8 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you.
9 Q. We were just discussing sort of the route you took to Kukes and
10 what had happened along the way, and you stated that you did not see the
11 police but you heard they were escorting you; correct?
12 A. Yes, this is what I heard --
13 Q. Okay --
14 A. -- I heard people saying that, They are escorting us. But I
15 can't tell you how far they escorted us.
16 Q. That's okay, ma'am. I just wanted to make sure that I had that
17 correctly before we took the pause. Because you also said that you had
18 heard that the paramilitaries were stopping. But am I correct that you
19 never saw the paramilitaries along the way?
20 A. I didn't see them with my own eyes because, as I said, we were on
21 top of a truck and the truck was covered with this tarpaulin. And so
22 only the driver talked with them. We were so many and covered in this
23 covered truck, so only the driver talked with them and maybe the people
24 who were sitting close to the driver.
25 Q. I just wanted to be clear on that because it was also discussed
1 in this note of 8 July 2009
2 did not give away your ID card because you did not possess one.
3 "Her ID had been burned in the house when she left the village
4 months before ..."
5 So what I'm wondering is: Did anyone ask you for your
6 identification papers along the way specifically?
7 A. They asked for IDs on the way, but the driver said that the IDs
8 of these people have been burned --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Correction:
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- have been taken in Beleg.
11 MS. O'LEARY:
12 Q. Okay. So in your statement on page 7 when you say:
13 "We would tell them we already handed over our documents in the
14 village of Beleg."
15 It was the driver saying this; correct?
16 A. Yes, yes, it was a driver who conversed with them, and it was the
17 driver who told them this.
18 Q. And so you didn't have any identification since October of 1998,
19 maybe September of 1998?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. To get a good date on that, do you remember when your house was
22 burned in 1998, in Glodjane?
23 A. When we left the house, it was already burned, but I can't tell
24 you when.
25 Q. So what you heard from the driver is that the paramilitaries were
1 stopping the police-escorted convoy; is that an accurate statement?
2 A. I said so because I heard the driver say -- because the truck was
3 frequently stopped, but I couldn't see them with my own eyes. It was not
4 possible where I was standing.
5 Q. I understand, ma'am. I just wanted to know what you had seen
6 with your own eyes. This route that you took then, did you know the area
7 that you went through? Had you been there before?
8 A. No. I had been up to Gjakove, but not beyond that point.
9 Q. What villages had you had opportunity to visit outside of
10 Glodjane before 1998 or before the war?
11 A. Drenoc and Beleg.
12 Q. So you were familiar with those villages before you went there in
13 1998 and 1999?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Now, ma'am, I know you've stated that your husband was not in the
16 KLA in your previous testimony and in the statement. Without naming any
17 names at this moment, do you have relatives in the KLA?
18 A. Yes, this is what I said, and it's true.
19 Q. Which -- if we went into private session would you be able to
20 name names for us of your relatives, ma'am?
21 A. You don't need to go into private session. I don't know
22 anything. I'm a housewife, and usually by tradition women are not
23 involved in such things. Not even my husband was involved because we had
24 seven children and he had to tend to these children to take care of them.
25 I don't know about the cousins. It's not in our tradition for women to
1 ask such questions.
2 Q. I believe in your Milutinovic testimony you did mention that in
3 7480 and 81 that it's not customary because you were a housewife and
4 didn't go out of the house; is that correct?
5 A. It's not customary with us. It's true. If we are housewives, we
6 stay within the walls of the house.
7 Q. But you went outside the house a couple of times at least on the
8 city bus because you saw someone named Zoran checking IDs sometime
9 between October 1998 and March 1999; correct?
10 A. That's correct. I went from Drenoc to Peje because I wanted to
11 buy some things for the children, and then it was when they asked us for
12 our ID. He went as far as halfway in the bus. This is where I saw him.
13 Q. Did Zoran check your ID when you saw him on the bus?
14 A. No, no, I was lucky. Because as I said, he came halfway. He
15 checked one half of the bus. When he came to where I was sitting, he
16 left. He didn't continue to ask for the ID.
17 Q. Was your ID burned by that time, ma'am?
18 A. It was burned.
19 Q. And while you did see this person who introduced himself, I
20 understand, as Zoran, you didn't see any KLA in any of the villages on
21 your way?
22 A. No. It was impossible for me to see any KLA members on the way.
23 Q. Why was it impossible, ma'am?
24 A. It was impossible because the police were all over the place, in
25 Decan, in Peje there were police so it was impossible to see KLA there.
1 Q. What about in Glodjane, ma'am, did you see KLA there?
2 A. No. I stayed at home. There was nothing I could offer the KLA.
3 I had seven children to take care of.
4 Q. You're saying you didn't know anyone other than distant relatives
5 in the KLA?
6 A. There were some distant relatives, but I don't know them. I have
7 no contacts with them. I never had any contacts with them.
8 Q. How did you know that they were in the KLA then, ma'am?
9 A. I don't know that they were, but I'm saying that I didn't see
10 anyone. I'm saying that maybe some of them they were KLA members, but I
11 didn't have a chance to see of them. Because, as I said, I was a
12 housewife and as a woman I stayed most of the time within the house.
13 Q. How did you know then if you stayed mostly within the house that
14 the UCK headquarters was in the village of Glodjane
15 of your statement?
16 A. How I know that? Because I heard people say, There are KLA
17 members. But I didn't see them with my own eyes.
18 Q. Well, ma'am, you specifically say - and this is when you're
19 telling your husband not to say that he's from Glodjane -
20 "The UCK headquarters was in the village of Glodjane
21 How did you know the headquarters was there?
22 A. I heard people say. Personally I didn't see them. Someone I --
23 sometime I heard someone, sometimes I heard someone else say this, but I
24 wasn't interested in that. And I didn't pay any attention to it because
25 this was not something that I saw with my own eyes. I simply heard
2 Q. You had also heard that Ramush Haradinaj was the chairman of the
3 UCK in Glodjane; correct?
4 A. I heard that Ramush Haradinaj is a commander. I never saw him
5 and I don't know him.
6 Q. It wouldn't be custom for you to speak with other men in the
7 village, would it, ma'am?
8 A. Not with men you don't know, but of course you can speak with the
9 men you know who are your relatives.
10 Q. So is it safe to say you had heard these things from your
11 relatives about the UCK headquarters and Ramush Haradinaj?
12 A. I heard once or twice this, and that was it. I heard that there
13 was a KLA member. I can't tell you who said it, whether it was the
14 children who said this or the adults, but I didn't pay any attention
15 actually. I wasn't interested in that.
16 Q. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you for your time.
17 MS. O'LEARY: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. O'Leary.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you to you.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. D'Ascoli, is there any re-examination?
21 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours, I do have some questions.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 A few more questions from Ms. D'Ascoli now.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Re-examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
1 Q. Madam, at page -- I refer to page 21, lines 13 to 15 of today's
2 transcript, Madam, in answering one of the questions by my learned
3 colleague from the Defence today, you said that those forces in regular
4 police uniforms that you saw in Beleg at the end of March, they had
5 "police" written on their arms. Madam, my question is the following:
6 How do you know that that was what was written on their arms? Are you --
7 how do you know that "police" was written on their arms?
8 A. I don't know that the meaning of the word was police. I only
9 know that the letters were Cyrillic. But to tell you the truth, I can't
10 read the Cyrillic letters. I can only recognise them as such.
11 Q. Yes, but didn't you say that you knew that the sign -- that
12 "police" was written on their arms? Didn't you say that today?
13 A. I said that there was an insignia written in Cyrillic letters.
14 And usually it was the police who wore such insignia. But as to what the
15 letters meant, this I don't know.
16 Q. And how do you know that? Did any of the persons you were with
17 mention what was written on the arms of those forces?
18 A. I heard from my husband once that they said -- that he said that
19 the police have this written on their arms, but I only heard it from him.
20 It's not that I saw it or that I understood it to mean police.
21 Q. But you heard that what was written on their arm from your
22 husband? Your husband said that what was written on their arm?
23 A. A while ago, before this incident happened, I had heard this.
24 That day that I saw the insignia, I only can testify that the letters
25 were in Cyrillic. Whether the meaning was "policija" or something else,
1 this I cannot tell you.
2 Q. Okay. And when you refer to "a while ago," do you mean that your
3 husband told you that that was what was written on their arm, the word
4 "police" I mean?
5 A. I said that I heard it from my own husband because myself I
6 cannot read it. I only remember the letters that were in Cyrillic.
7 Q. Okay. That's clear.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, if we could move to private session
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI:
12 Q. Madam, today you were asked whether --
13 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
17 MS. D'ASCOLI:
18 Q. [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI:
21 Q. You were also asked about when you were forced to leave the
22 village of Drenoc to go to Beleg, and you said that while leaving you saw
23 flames coming out of the houses of Drenoc. Can you please describe what
24 you saw while leaving Drenoc?
25 A. When we left Drenoc and went to Beleg, we could see the smoke and
1 the flames coming out of the houses of Drenoc. And I heard the men
2 saying, They set fire to Drenoc. When we went -- arrived in Beleg,
3 during this interval of time that we went to Beleg, they set fire to the
5 Q. And did you have the chance of seeing who set fire to those
6 houses and to the village?
7 A. No, no. It was impossible for us to see that because we were
8 going to Beleg in the meantime. But the Serb police, who else?
9 Q. Madam, today also the issue of the NATO bombing was raised. This
10 is at page 27 of today's transcript. I wanted to ask you: Did you
11 witness any NATO bombings during the day when you were in Drenoc and then
12 in Beleg at the end of March 1999?
13 A. Yes, we heard it.
14 Q. What did you hear?
15 A. We heard the explosion.
16 Q. And did you know which type of explosion it was or where they
17 were coming from or did you just hear explosion?
18 A. The explosions were -- the explosions were caused by the Serb
19 forces because they shelled the villages from all sides. It was not
21 Q. Okay. And also, while you were in Beleg at the end of
22 March 1999, while you were taking shelter there, did you see any KLA
23 fighting in the village?
24 A. No, we couldn't see any fightings because we were shut in the
25 house, but we could hear the sound of shelling coming from all over, all
1 sorts of weaponry, tanks, machine-guns, and everything, but we couldn't
2 see anything.
3 Q. Did you hear of any KLA fightings going on in the village in
4 those days?
5 A. No. We were shut in a room. Who could tell us about that? We
6 were there among the noise, the cries of children crying. We wanted to
7 protect ourselves, to protect the children, the families.
8 Q. Madam, my learned colleague from the Defence also asked you some
9 more questions about the IDs that you saw on the white piece of cloth
10 while you were checked in the basement. I have a question about that.
11 During the previous testimony in the Milutinovic et al. case or during
12 the taking of the statement or -- I mean just in the past, were you ever
13 asked about whether you saw ID cards in that moment when you were
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Okay. In answering one of the other questions from my learned
17 colleague, you said that when you went back after being checked, you went
18 back to your children and that they came there and searched your
19 children. Can you clarify who came and searched your children?
20 A. Those policemen and the paramilitaries who were there, those two
21 types of forces who cooperated with one another.
22 Q. Was it them who came and searched your children?
23 A. Yes, yes, yes. They came and checked -- searched the children.
24 Some were in the yard, some were in the basement. There were many there.
25 There was not one, two, or three.
1 Q. And can you clarify, how did they search your children? What did
2 they do? Can you clarify what you mean they checked the children?
3 A. They searched them bodily. They wanted to see whether we had hid
4 something in the children's bodies and they checked their bodies.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. You were also asked about the paramilitaries
6 who came to the room overnight and took the girls out, and you -- in
7 replying to this -- one of the questions you said: The girls were taken
8 out of there by force. Can you clarify what you mean by "force"?
9 A. They were taken by force because they came inside and said they
10 wanted them to do some cleaning work. They didn't want to go, so -- and
11 the men then took them by force and dragged them outside.
12 Q. And can you clarify just a little bit more what do you mean in
13 the sense that were there any act of, I dont' know, resistance or were
14 they like bodily forced out of the room? Can you clarify just a bit more
15 what you mean by force, that the men took them by force?
16 A. Yes. Because the girls would not get up and go, they took them
17 by force. They even dragged some of them by their hair to take them
19 Q. Okay. Madam, my last question: You say that while you were in
20 the lorry in the convoy directed to Albania, the driver was the one
21 speaking to the forces who escorted the convoy. And my question is: Did
22 the driver mention which forces were escorting the convoy? Did he refer
23 to them by specifying which forces he was referring to?
24 A. The driver mentioned it when we went to Albania, and he said that
25 in some places there were policemen and in some other places there were
1 paramilitaries. I don't know where they were exactly myself --
2 Q. Okay --
3 A. -- I heard the driver say those words myself.
4 Q. Okay. I understand. Besides the forces escorting the convoy,
5 did you hear from the driver which forces stopped the convoy to ask for
6 ID -- for IDs? My question is: Did the driver mention which forces
7 stopped the convoy to ask for IDs?
8 A. I don't know. I didn't hear him say anything at the moment. In
9 fact, we were -- the lorry was packed full. There were children there,
10 we were hungry, they were crying. I couldn't hear him.
11 Q. Okay. So you don't know exactly - yeah - which forces he
13 A. No. I don't know, I can't remember, but -- although I said
14 that -- we didn't have any nappies or anything. The children were
15 crying. I don't know what people were saying at that moment.
16 Q. Okay. Do you remember the convoy being stopped at some point in
17 any case while you were on your way? Do you remember that the lorry
18 would stop at some point or not?
19 A. The lorry was stopped, but we couldn't see outside. We didn't
20 know where we were because the lorry was covered with tarpaulin. We were
21 inside the back of the lorry. The children were crying and screaming
22 even. And we just could feel that the lorry stopped.
23 Q. Okay. Madam, thank you very much for having answered my
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: And I don't have further questions, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.
2 You will be pleased to know that that completes the questions for
3 you. The Chamber has your statement and your previous evidence as well
4 as your answers today. We would like to thank you for your assistance
5 and for the evidence you have given. And you may now, of course, go back
6 to your ordinary activities with your family. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. It's been
8 11 years. We have suffered so much, and their bodies have not been found
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew via videolink]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I believe, Mr. Behar, we move to the next
13 witness; is that correct?
14 MR. BEHAR: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. Our next witness
15 is Sabri Popaj. Just while he's setting up, with the Court's leave, I
16 just thought I would conduct my questions from here rather than shifting
17 back and forth.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
19 MR. BEHAR: Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Behar, we are told by telephone from Pristina
22 that the next witness is not being brought until tomorrow morning.
23 MR. BEHAR: Well, that is a surprise to us as well, I think,
24 certainly a surprise to me. We can look into that. I'm not sure what
25 else to say other than I can look into it now and find out if that's the
1 case; and if so, why.
2 JUDGE PARKER: That was the understanding of the instruction
3 given apparently.
4 MR. BEHAR: If I could just have a moment's indulgence, then,
5 I'll see what I can do.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MR. BEHAR: While we're looking into that, Your Honour, I might
8 suggest that if we have the break now perhaps we could make the best use
9 of our time and we'll see if there's anything we can do to have the
10 witness here and if we can provide some explanation as to what's
12 JUDGE PARKER: The Registrar is on the phone speaking --
13 listening, and we can speak to him by telephone. It appears that it is
14 not possible to get the witness before tomorrow morning. You may at the
15 moment be able to assist us.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, that's correct.
17 It's my understanding from the VWS support officer here on site that the
18 witness was not scheduled to appear until tomorrow morning. I also
19 understand that that's the information that was given to VWS by the OTP.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.
21 It seems, Mr. Behar, that there is little point in attempting to
22 achieve the attendance of the witness at this point of the day. Can you
23 ensure that both of the remaining videolink witnesses are available
24 tomorrow, and we will just have to do the best we can with the time then.
25 MR. BEHAR: Yes, we will certainly undertake to do that,
1 Your Honours. Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid we then must adjourn for the day to
4 resume at 9.00 in the morning. We will confirm arrangements for both
5 witnesses to be available tomorrow for the videolink connection.
6 We now adjourn.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.27 p.m.
8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of
9 July, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.