1 Tuesday, 25 August 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. My apologies that we're a little
6 late coming in.
7 Ms. Gopalan, you have a matter?
8 MS. GOPALAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I have a short
9 procedural application to make, Your Honours, before the next witness is
10 called in. It's an oral application to add an exhibit to our exhibit
12 JUDGE PARKER: What is the exhibit?
13 MS. GOPALAN: The exhibit is 65 ter 05339, and this exhibit has
14 five colour photographs that were provided by the next witness
15 Madam Shyhrete Dula to the OTP during the proofing session.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Just a moment, please, Ms. Gopalan.
17 MR. DJORDJEVIC: My client just told me that he can't get the
19 JUDGE PARKER: That will be dealt with.
20 Carry on, please, Ms. Gopalan.
21 MS. GOPALAN: So these were photographs that were provided by
22 Madam Dula during the proofing session in July, and these five
23 photographs are part of a total of 11 photographs that she provided to
24 us. These 11 photographs have been disclosed to the Defence as
25 65 ter exhibits the following day after we received them, that was the
1 9th of July, and the Defence was also provided information about these
2 photographs in the supplemental information sheet that we circulated to
3 the Defence.
4 The Prosecution has selected five of the most useful photographs
5 from these 11, and these are the five photographs that are contained in
6 the exhibit that we would like to add to the exhibit list, Your Honours.
7 And --
8 JUDGE PARKER: Is the subject matter of the photographs directly
9 the subject of the indictment?
10 MS. GOPALAN: Yes, Your Honours. The subject matter of the
11 photographs relate to matters directly addressed in the witness's
12 statement and matters raised in the indictment, and I would also submit
13 that all parties and the Chamber will benefit from such photographs,
14 colour photographs, that relate to matters arising in the witness's
15 testimony. And --
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
17 Mr. Djordjevic.
18 Ms. O'Leary.
19 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. We agree that we did
20 receive them on 8 July -- I believe 9 July, 2009, and they were included
21 in the proofing note, and we do believe that they are relevant, actually,
22 to her testimony; however, we would like to note our objection that we
23 would have liked to have received them much earlier. In the proofing
24 note she states that she showed them to the Office of the Prosecutor when
25 giving her statement in 2001, and they were not taken then or they were
1 not dealt with then. Furthermore, we would have liked an application for
2 addition to the 65 ter list in advance of today, preferably when they
3 would have used them in the supplemental information sheet. Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE PARKER: They will be added to the 65 ter list,
7 Ms. Gopalan, but you will feel the gentle sting in the tail of the
8 submissions of Ms. O'Leary.
9 MS. GOPALAN: Duly noted.
10 JUDGE PARKER: There's clearly been a failure of courtesy at the
11 very least.
12 MS. GOPALAN: Duly noted, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation which
18 is shown to you now.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: SHYHRETE DULA
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
24 Ms. Gopalan has some questions for you.
25 Examination by Ms. Gopalan:
1 Q. Good morning, Madam Dula.
2 A. Yes, good morning.
3 Q. Please could you state your full name for the record.
4 A. I am Shyhrete Dula.
5 Q. What is your date of birth, Madam Dula?
6 A. I was born on the 21st of March.
7 Q. In what year?
8 A. 1958.
9 Q. Madam Dula, where do you live now?
10 A. I live in Gjakove.
11 Q. Thank you. Madam, did you provide a statement to the
12 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in September 2001?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And have you recently had the opportunity to review this
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, having reviewed the statement, Madam, I understand that you
18 wished to make a number of corrections to the statement.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I will read out these corrections for your confirmation.
21 MS. GOPALAN: The statement is 65 ter 05162.
22 Q. And the first correction refers to the English page 2, second
23 paragraph, it's the same reference for the B/C/S, and it relates to the
24 houses in your family compound. At present the paragraph reads:
25 "The second house which is slightly smaller than mine housed my
1 sister and brother-in-law together with their two children. The third
2 and smallest house was that of my mother-in-law."
3 I will now read out the correction that you wish to make:
4 "The second house which is slightly smaller than mine housed my
5 mother-in-law, sister-in-law, and brother-in-law together with his two
6 children. The third and smallest house belonged to my mother-in-law and
7 was the summer house."
8 Is that the correction that you wish to make?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 I will move on to the second correction that you wished to make
12 and this is --
13 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, did you mean the correction to be
14 that it housed by mother-in-law, sister-in-law, and brother-in-law?
15 MS. GOPALAN: Perhaps I could rephrase the correction,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Maybe the witness could tell us.
18 MS. GOPALAN:
19 Q. Madam, could you tell us who lived in the second house, the house
20 that was slightly smaller than yours?
21 A. In the second house it was my brother-in-law, his wife, and my
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That is clear. Thank you.
24 MS. GOPALAN:
25 Q. Thank you, Madam. I'd now like to move on to the English page 2,
1 last sentence, and the B/C/S page 2, second-last paragraph, last
2 sentence. At present the paragraph reads:
3 "I heard the distinctive crack of flames, and at about 1.30 on
4 the 25th of March our compound gate suddenly flew open, having been
5 struck by what I subsequently recognised to be a police jeep."
6 Madam, during the proofing session you clarified that you did not
7 see the compound gate flying open and that it was your mother-in-law who
8 saw this and told you about the police jeep. Is that the correction that
9 you wish to make to this paragraph?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Moving on to the final few corrections, and this is
12 in English page 3, the fourth paragraph, the last sentence; and the B/C/S
13 page 3, third paragraph, last sentence. The last sentence reads:
14 "I could not make out much of what was being said, but I heard
15 much cursing."
16 This is in relation to when you sought refuge in the house of the
17 stranger in Rruga e Mullirit, Gjakove. Am I correct that the correction
18 you wish to make to this paragraph is that this sentence should be
19 deleted from this paragraph?
20 A. I said that I heard the cursing when I was in my own house, when
21 they entered the yard.
22 Q. Thank you. So you had heard the cursing earlier on?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. And this takes us to the next correction that you
25 wish to make to your statement, and this is when you were in your house.
1 And you said - and this is in English, page 3, the second-last sentence;
2 and B/C/S, page 2, the last paragraph, second sentence which reads:
3 "I believe that their accents were those of Serbs from
4 Gjakove ..."
5 After this sentence you wished to add the sentence that we have
6 just deleted which was:
7 "I could not make out much of what was being said, but I heard
8 much cursing."
9 Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. And finally let's go to the English page 4,
12 third-last paragraph, the second sentence; and the B/C/S page 4, second
13 paragraph. This correction is made in relation to the crowd you saw
14 being escorted out of Gjakove. The sentence at the moment reads:
15 "They were escorted by a mixture of VJ soldiers and Serbian
16 police and, we assumed, were being led out of Gjakove."
17 Madam, what was the correction you wished to make to this
18 sentence in relation to the crowd that was being escorted out by the VJ
19 soldiers and Serbian police?
20 A. My correction would be that when we left our homes and we were
21 directed towards Albania
22 border we were escorted, initially by police and then by soldiers.
23 Q. Thank you, Madam. And now, having made these corrections to your
24 statement, are you satisfied that its contents are true and accurate to
25 the best of your knowledge and belief?
1 A. Everything I stated is true. I experienced everything during the
2 first night of NATO attacks.
3 Q. Thank you, Madam.
4 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender the statement into
5 evidence. It's 65 ter 05160.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01268.
8 MS. GOPALAN: I'd now like to read out the witness's in-court
9 summary, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 MS. GOPALAN: The witness is from the town of Djakovica or
12 Gjakove in the Djakovica municipality. She will testify that on the
13 night of the 24th to 25th March, 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia
14 expelled Kosovo Albanian residents from their homes.
15 The witness's house was situated in the centre of the
16 Mahala e Hadumit area of Djakovica, a historic quarter comprising an old
17 shopping bazaar and a mosque. She will testify that, during the night of
18 the 24th of March, 1999, and the early hours of the 25th of March, 1999
19 she heard Serbian voices outside her street. Later that night, policemen
20 entered the yard of her family compound and started shooting.
21 The witness and her family managed to escape and sought refuge in
22 a nearby house. She could see her house and all the surrounding
23 buildings burning from there. She will describe the destruction in her
24 neighbourhood, the bazaar shops and buildings burning, and the old mosque
25 and minaret damaged. She will testify that her house and her
1 mother-in-law's house were burned down and that she found her
2 brother-in-law dead in his house.
3 She will describe how on the morning of the 25th she and her
4 family sought refuge, along with many others, in a temple where they
5 remained for eight days. On the eighth day, the witness and her family
6 joined a convoy of people heading out of Gjakove. They were escorted out
7 by VJ and policemen to the Qafa e Prushit border crossing.
8 The witness and her family crossed into Albania and were
9 eventually taken to Austria
10 months. The witness says that she left Kosovo because of the actions of
11 the Serbian police.
12 End of in-court summary, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 MS. GOPALAN:
15 Q. Madam Dula, as you know, the Judges have your statement before
16 them and therefore I have some clarificatory questions on your statement.
17 Let's begin with the neighbourhood that you lived in. In your
18 statement, Madam, that's the English and B/C/S, page 2, paragraph 1, you
19 say that your home was situated in the Mahala e Hadumit area of Gjakove
20 and that this area was a shopping bazaar and built in Turkish style and
21 there was a mosque, a very old mosque, in the area as well. Now, Madam,
22 these shops in the shopping bazaar, could you tell us what sorts of shops
23 they were, in other words what did they sell?
24 A. These shops traded privately various kinds of goods, and they
25 also exercised artisan crafts work there.
1 Q. And for how long had these artisans or craft works been exercised
2 in these shops, if you know?
3 A. You mean before the war?
4 Q. Yes, that's right.
5 A. They continued to work until one day before the war, but they
6 used to close very early during the day.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what crafts they -- these artisans
8 made in these shops if you know?
9 A. There were people who made the traditional hats of the Albanian
10 costumes, folk costumes, various boutiques.
11 Q. Thank you, Madam. Now these people who made the traditional hats
12 of the Albanian costumes, could you tell us for how long they had been
13 making these hats in the bazaar, since when if you know?
14 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure for how long but it was
15 a years'-long tradition.
16 Q. Thank you, Madam. Now, moving on to the events on the
17 24th of March, 1999, that you talk about in your statement, you say that
18 at approximately midnight
19 the street outside your compound.
20 This is in the English page 2, paragraph 4; the B/C/S page 2,
21 last paragraph.
22 But just to clarify, this street in which you heard the commotion
23 outside your house, is this the street with the shopping bazaars that we
24 just spoke about?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you say you also heard voices speaking in Serbian on the
2 street. Madam, do you understand or speak Serbian?
3 A. I understand Serbian very well, but I cannot speak it properly.
4 Q. Thank you. On this day, Madam, at around midnight on the
5 24th of March, who else was with you in your home?
6 A. As usual, the whole family: myself, my husband, and my three
8 Q. Thank you. What about those in the family compound that you
9 spoke about, who else was present in the family compound?
10 A. In the family compound that included my home you mean?
11 Q. That's correct.
12 A. In my mother-in-law's house there was my mother-in-law; her son;
13 my brother-in-law; his wife; and their children, their two children.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, moving on to the English page 2, paragraph 4;
15 and that's the B/C/S page 2, second-last paragraph, you say:
16 "At this stage we stayed in our houses where I woke up the
17 children and waited, hoping that the voices would go away; however, I
18 soon became aware of the sound of wood burning outside in the bazaar. I
19 heard the distinctive crack of flames ..."
20 Now, when you say you heard the sound of wood burning, did you
21 subsequently discover what it is that was burning, what it is that you
22 heard burning?
23 A. Next to my house, a little bit beyond, there are all the shops in
24 the bazaar and they were all burning at the time that I heard that noise
25 that you read about.
1 Q. Thank you. You say that at this stage some 30 people entered
2 your yard. They were firing automatic weapons as they advanced.
3 This is in the English page 3, paragraph 2; and the B/C/S page 2,
4 the last paragraph onwards.
5 Now, as these 30 people entered your yard, Madam, did they say
7 A. As soon as they entered the yard they began cursing and shouting.
8 Q. Could you tell us what it is they were shouting about?
9 A. They were very -- they were things that I cannot mention here,
10 swear words.
11 Q. And did they ask you and your family to do anything?
12 A. We did not have any contact with them because we jumped over the
14 Q. Thank you. Could you describe to us what they were wearing?
15 A. They were wearing police uniforms, blue camouflage.
16 Q. Thank you. And you say that you jumped over the wall. Could you
17 tell us from which part of the house is it that you escaped?
18 A. We escaped from the back part of the house.
19 Q. And who was with you as you were escaping, who else were you
20 escaping with?
21 A. My children, myself, and my husband.
22 Q. And as you were escaping, did you fear for the safety of any
23 particular member of your family?
24 A. Yes, that's true. I knew that my mother-in-law, my
25 brother-in-law, and his family, they were all inside in their own house.
1 Q. How about the immediate members of your family who you were
2 fleeing with, escaping from your house with, within your immediate
3 members of your family? Did you fear the safety of any particular one of
5 A. Yes. For as long as I was inside the house, I was very scared
6 because I had heard that they had committed major crimes, they had raped
7 young girls and women and they had killed people.
8 Q. And how had you heard this, Madam Dula?
9 A. People were speaking about that. When we spoke to other people
10 we heard those things.
11 Q. Thank you. Now you say that you fled from the wall -- you jumped
12 over the wall and this was at the back part of the house. Could you tell
13 us if you suffered any injuries as a result of fleeing from the back of
14 your house?
15 A. Yes, I suffered major injuries. My face and the whole body was
16 in pain.
17 Q. Did anyone else in your family suffer any injuries?
18 A. Yes, my husband too. He injured his leg.
19 Q. Thank you, Madam. I'd now like to move on to when you sought
20 refuge in the house of a strange in the Rruga e Mullirit area of Gjakove.
21 So this is after you fled your family home.
22 This is in the English page 3, paragraph 4; and the B/C/S page 3,
23 paragraph 3.
24 Now, Madam, when you were in the house of the stranger, could you
25 tell us what it is you saw from the house?
1 A. While I was in the house of the stranger I was able to observe in
2 the direction of my house, and I could see that it was entirely burned,
3 it was all in flames.
4 Q. In addition to your house being in flames, could you see anything
5 else in the surrounding area?
6 A. Yes, the shops were also in flames.
7 Q. Now, you say that on the morning of the 25th of March, 1999
8 made your way back to your house - this is in English page 3, the last
9 paragraph; B/C/S page 3, the third-last paragraph - you say that as you
10 were making your way back to your house, you were shocked to see the
11 level of destruction that had taken place in your neighbourhood.
12 Madam, could you describe the condition of your neighbourhood to
14 A. The whole neighbourhood was levelled to the ground. Everything
15 that once stood in this neighbourhood was burned down.
16 Q. Earlier on you mentioned a mosque in your neighbourhood. First
17 could you tell us the name of this mosque?
18 A. It was called the Hadum mosque.
19 Q. And what if anything did you notice in relation to the
20 Hadum mosque?
21 A. When I passed by, I noticed that the minaret was also damaged, it
22 was destroyed in fact.
23 Q. Thank you. In addition to the minaret being damaged, did you
24 notice anything else about the condition of the Hadum mosque?
25 A. I saw the minaret. I noticed some damages on the other side of
1 the mosque too, but I didn't dare look and inspect the damages further.
2 Q. Were you able to observe what it is that caused these damages
3 that you saw on the other side of the mosque?
4 A. I saw that the walls of the mosque, the external walls, were
5 damaged, and I continued.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. GOPALAN: I'd now like to call up 65 ter 05351.
8 Q. Madam, shortly a photograph will appear on the screen before you.
9 I'm afraid it's not very clear, but are you able to recognise this
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What does this photograph depict?
13 A. This photograph depicts part of the street where I live.
14 Q. Are you able to observe anything specific in relation to this
16 A. The street where my house is here in this part, here we can see
17 the shops of the old bazaar.
18 Q. And where is your house in relation to these shops?
19 A. In this part here.
20 Q. If you could just draw an arrow indicating the direction of your
22 A. Here.
23 Q. Am I correct that your house is located where you have just
24 placed the marking on the photograph on the screen?
25 A. Yes, in that part of the street that we see.
1 Q. That is where your house is located?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this photograph
5 into evidence.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Do we know when this photograph was taken?
7 MS. GOPALAN:
8 Q. Madam, are you able to tell us when this photograph was taken?
9 A. This photograph was most probably taken when the war started,
10 immediately after the attack, after these shops were set on fire.
11 Q. Why do you say that, Madam?
12 A. You can see still on the photograph the smoke, at least I can see
13 that on this photograph.
14 Q. Where is it you see the photograph -- apologies, the smoke in the
15 photograph, Madam?
16 A. Here, this part here. I think there's smoke there.
17 Q. Are you able to place a letter A to where you see the smoke?
18 A. Here and here too. May I mark this too?
19 Q. Yes, please.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you, Madam.
22 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, this exhibit that the witness has
23 just marked has already been tendered into evidence and we do have
24 information as to when the photograph was taken.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. You want this now exhibited?
1 MS. GOPALAN: Yes, please.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked photograph will be
5 Exhibit P01269.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Do you know the exhibit number of the photograph,
7 the existing exhibit?
8 MS. GOPALAN: Yes, I do, Your Honours, it's P1105. And this
9 photograph is an enlargement of the lower of the two photographs
10 contained in that exhibit.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 MS. GOPALAN: I'd now like to call up another exhibit, that's
13 P1104. Could we please go to the second page of this exhibit to begin
15 Q. Madam, do you recognise this photograph?
16 A. Yes. This also shows that part of the street where my house is.
17 Q. Thank you. And when was the street in this condition?
18 A. After the war. It was rebuilt.
19 Q. So this is a photograph of the rebuilt street that you lived on?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. GOPALAN: I'd now like to go to the first page of this
24 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, Madam?
25 A. Yes. This is the part behind the mosque, the rear part.
1 Q. How about the buildings just in front of the mosque, do you know
2 what they are?
3 A. These buildings were shops.
4 Q. When was it you saw -- or did you see these shops and the mosque
5 in this condition?
6 A. When we were expelled and directed towards Albania.
7 Q. Am I correct that you passed these buildings on your way out
8 towards Albania
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell us approximately when that was?
11 A. I don't remember the exact time of the day, but as far as I
12 remember it was the 2nd of April.
13 Q. Thank you, Madam. Now, just before we leave this photograph, if
14 we have a look at the mosque there is a tall structure to the right of
15 the mosque. Could you tell us what that is and what has happened to that
17 A. This is the minaret of the mosque and the top part of the minaret
18 was damaged; it collapsed.
19 Q. And when did you see the minaret in that condition having
21 A. The following day when I went to look for my mother-in-law and
22 also on that day when we left for Albania.
23 Q. Thank you, Madam.
24 MS. GOPALAN: I'd now like to call up another exhibit,
25 that's P1107.
1 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, Madam?
2 A. Yes, this is the front part of the mosque.
3 Q. And when was it you saw the mosque in this condition?
4 A. The day we left for Albania
5 Q. Thank you, Madam. I'd now like to ask you some questions about
6 the condition of your own home when you returned to your family compound
7 on the morning of the 25th of March.
8 Now, this is in the English page 4, paragraph 2; and the B/C/S
9 page 3, the second-last paragraph.
10 MS. GOPALAN: In the meanwhile could we call up 65 ter 05339,
12 Q. Madam, when you returned to your home on the 25th of March, 1999
13 could you tell us what condition your house was in on that day?
14 A. The following day when I went to my house, I saw a complete ruin.
15 I could not even enter it because of the ruins.
16 Q. And could you tell us what it is that had ruined your house, what
17 had caused the damage to your house?
18 A. Only the policemen that night could have caused that ruin.
19 Q. Were you able to observe yourself any marks or indications of
20 what had caused the damage to your home?
21 A. No, I wasn't able to observe that because I only went there to
22 look for my mother-in-law.
23 Q. Could you tell us what the condition of your mother-in-law's
24 house was?
25 A. The old house where she used to live was in a more or less good
1 state, whereas the auxiliary building was burnt to the ground like my own
3 Q. Now, Madam, on the screen before you there is a photograph. Do
4 you recognise this photograph?
5 A. Yes. This is the entrance. The police broke down this gate and
6 entered our yard. This is the entrance to the yard of my house.
7 Q. And could you tell us who took this photograph?
8 A. After the war, before we started to clean up all this mess, we
9 took a photograph of the gate.
10 Q. When did you observe your house in this condition; in other
11 words, when was the first time you saw your house in this condition?
12 A. The next day, in the morning.
13 Q. Thank you, Madam.
14 MS. GOPALAN: Could we go to the second page, please, of this
16 Q. Do you recognise this photograph, Madam?
17 A. Yes, this is the house where I lived.
18 Q. From which angle is this photograph taken of the house that you
19 live in?
20 A. It was taken from the entrance to the yard, from that part.
21 Q. And when did you observe the house in this condition?
22 A. The following day, in the morning.
23 Q. And how did your house look prior to the events of the
24 24th of March?
25 A. It resembled a normal house, like all other houses.
1 Q. We can observe from this photograph that the roof of the house
2 seems to be missing. Do you know what happened to the top floor of the
3 house? Were you able to observe any causes of the damage?
4 A. The top part was in flames, the first and the second floor as
6 MS. GOPALAN: Could we move on to the next photograph, please.
7 Q. What does this photograph show, Madam, if you recognise it?
8 A. These are photographs of the rooms. You can see here part of the
9 kitchen. It depicts the damage they caused inside the house.
10 Q. Now, towards the right side of the photograph there is some dark
11 colours visible to the right side of the photograph. Are you able to
12 tell us what caused those dark markings on the walls?
13 A. They were all caused by the fire, the flames they caused.
14 MS. GOPALAN: And can we move on to the next photograph, please.
15 Q. What about this photograph, Madam, what does this show?
16 A. This photograph depicts the first floor of my house, where I was
17 staying that night. We had to pass through here to get to the kitchen
18 and jump through the window to the other courtyards.
19 Q. Now, the condition that this room is in now, when did you observe
20 the room to be in this condition?
21 A. The next day.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, these last three photographs that we have seen,
23 who took these photographs -- or the last four photographs that we have
24 seen, who took these photographs?
25 A. My children, they took these photographs after we returned home.
1 Q. Thank you, Madam.
2 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender the first four
3 pages of this exhibit into evidence, please.
4 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01270.
6 MS. GOPALAN:
7 Q. Now, moving on to another area, Madam, when you were expelled
8 from your home the night before you returned to see your house in this
9 condition, did your brother-in-law leave with your family?
10 A. No, he didn't leave with us. He was in his own house. We were
11 in our own house. Both houses are in the same yard.
12 Q. Did he leave at all that night?
13 A. No, he didn't.
14 Q. Could you tell us what happened to your brother-in-law?
15 A. The next day in the morning when I went back I saw him dead. It
16 was a horrible scene for me.
17 Q. Did you learn what had happened to him, how he had been killed?
18 A. I saw his body with my own eyes. It was completely massacred.
19 Q. Can you tell us if you know why it is that your brother-in-law
20 didn't leave his house that night?
21 A. My house was situated in a different part, more convenient part,
22 and had his house been situated in a more convenient part he would have
23 survived too.
24 Q. Could you tell us his name, please?
25 A. Kujtim.
1 Q. Could we have his full name, please.
2 A. Kujtim Dula.
3 Q. And how old was he then?
4 A. 42.
5 MS. GOPALAN: Could I call up 65 ter 05339 again, please, and go
6 to the last page of the exhibit, page 5.
7 Q. Now, while the exhibit is coming up, Madam Dula, do you know of
8 any other relatives of yours who were killed during this time in
10 A. In my family there are two persons.
11 Q. Do you know their names?
12 A. Astrit Rexha.
13 Q. And when was Astrit Rexha killed, if you know?
14 A. Astrit was killed when he was forced to join the convoy to
16 Q. When was that, Madam Dula?
17 A. I'm not sure about the date, but I learnt from his mother about
18 his death.
19 Q. And did you also learn who it was who was responsible for his
21 A. The policemen who expelled them from their house.
22 Q. Were any other members of your family killed at this time?
23 A. The son of my mother-in-law's sister was also killed.
24 Q. And what was his name?
25 A. Agim Haxhi Avdy li.
1 Q. Could you tell us where he was killed and when, if you know?
2 A. I don't know about the date, but I learnt from his mother that he
3 was killed.
4 Q. And how was he killed?
5 A. I don't know. I don't know any details about this person. I
6 only learned that he was killed.
7 Q. Thank you, Madam. Now, the photograph before you, could you tell
8 us what it depicts, please, if you know.
9 A. The crime committed on my now late brother-in-law.
10 Q. And who took this photograph, Madam?
11 A. My son.
12 Q. And when was this taken?
13 A. The next day. He found a small camera that belonged to the
14 family and took this picture.
15 Q. Thank you, Madam.
16 MS. GOPALAN: I'd like to tender this photograph into evidence,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01271.
20 MS. GOPALAN:
21 Q. Now, Madam, I'd like to move on to when you left Gjakove - and
22 this is in the English page 4, paragraph 3; and the B/C/S page 4, the
23 second paragraph. This was in the -- on the eighth day that you were in
24 the temple and you say you saw a crowd of people walking past the temple
25 from the direction of the Qerim district of Gjakove and that your family
1 decided to join the crowd and leave Gjakove. Could you tell us who
2 escorted you out of Gjakove?
3 A. Along the way there were two check-points manned by policemen.
4 Q. Where were these check-points, if you remember?
5 A. The first check-point was at the bridge.
6 Q. Do you know the name of this bridge, Madam?
7 A. As far as I know it is called the bridge of Mete Efendi
8 Q. Thank you. You say that these two check-points were manned by
9 policemen. How did you know that they were policemen?
10 A. Because they were wearing police uniforms.
11 Q. And what do you understand to be the police uniform?
12 A. They were blue camouflage uniforms, and as far as I know they are
13 police colours.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned two check-points. Where was the
15 second check-point located? You've already mentioned the bridge as the
16 first one.
17 A. The second check-point was located near the barracks.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, before you reached the check-points when you
19 were still in the town of Gjakove
20 of the town then?
21 A. The policemen.
22 Q. And while they were escorting you out of town, did you see them
23 do anything?
24 A. Up to the first check-point, we could see policemen causing
25 damage to the buildings.
1 Q. Could you explain to us what you mean by "causing damage to the
2 buildings"? For example, which buildings? What were they doing to the
4 A. The shops, the grocery shops that were along the side of the
6 Q. And what were they doing to the grocery shops?
7 A. They were breaking the window-panes.
8 Q. And after breaking the window-panes did they do anything else?
9 A. They went inside, but we continued our way so I did not see what
10 they did after that.
11 Q. Thank you, Madam. And now a question about your identity card.
12 You say that when you joined the convoy in Gjakove, you were asked to
13 hand over -- you and your family were asked to hand over your identity
14 cards. Could you tell us on how many occasions on your trip out of
15 Gjakove were you asked for your identity cards?
16 A. We were asked for our identity cards at the first check-point and
17 also the second check-point.
18 Q. And who asked for your identity cards at both these check-points?
19 A. Policemen, the ones that were manning those points.
20 Q. And what happened after they asked you for your identity cards?
21 What did they do to them, if anything?
22 A. I did not have anything to give to them because everything had
23 been burned, everything that my family had had been burned.
24 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were part of a convoy. Were other
25 members of the convoy also asked for their identity cards at these
2 A. Yes. All of their identity cards were taken away from them and
3 they were put in two big boxes.
4 Q. Thank you. If you know, Madam, approximately how many others
5 were in the convoy with you?
6 A. I can't give you the exact number; however, it was an endless
7 convoy. That's what I can tell you.
8 Q. And could you tell us where it is that you crossed into Albania
9 A. At Qafa e Prushit, in the mountains.
10 Q. And at this stage, who was escorting you out of Albania [sic]?
11 A. The army.
12 Q. Thank you, Madam. Now, finally could you tell us why it is that
13 you and your family left Kosovo at that time?
14 A. The reason we left Kosovo was to live, to survive. There was no
15 other way for us to live than to escape.
16 Q. And who were you escaping from, Madam?
17 A. We were escaping from the policemen. They expelled us.
18 Q. Thank you very much, Madam.
19 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, at this stage I have no further
20 questions for this witness and I thank you for your indulgence in
21 allowing me to go over my allocated time.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 Ms. O'Leary.
24 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. O'Leary:
1 Q. Good morning, ma'am. My name is Marie O'Leary. I'm here
2 representing Mr. Vlastimir Djordjevic today in these proceedings. With
3 me is our lead counsel, Mr. Dragoljub Djordjevic. We have your statement
4 in evidence, but I just want to make sure that we go through a couple of
5 points just to make sure that we have everything clarified for the
6 record. And as is procedure with these statements, my understanding is
7 that it was given orally in Albanian; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then it was prepared in English and read back to you for you
10 to confirm and sign; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that's -- you don't speak any English; is that correct,
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. But you said today you understand some Serbian; correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Thank you. And I just want to orient ourselves to where things
18 happened in your statement.
19 MS. O'LEARY: So if we could have the map at P823, page 29,
20 called up.
21 Q. And you lived in Gjakove your entire life; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And so you went to school in Gjakove?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what was the last year of school you had finished?
1 A. I had eight years of schooling. I got married very young.
2 MS. O'LEARY: I'm afraid we don't have the right map. One
3 moment. It's on page 29.
4 Oh, great, thanks.
5 Q. Now, ma'am, here's a pretty rudimentary map of Gjakove, and I
6 just want to kind of figure out where some of these neighbourhoods are
7 that you've been discussing. Some of them are listed to some degree
8 quite lightly on the map, if you can see them there. Can you see them on
9 the screen?
10 Can you see where the area of Mahala e Hadumit is on this map,
12 A. I can't read these letters very well. I can see
13 Mahala e Haxhiymerit but not Mahala e Hadumit.
14 Q. Okay. Well, without reading it, ma'am, can you just see -- can
15 you tell by the way the roads are oriented here, since you lived there
16 your whole life; can you tell from that map where that area should be?
17 A. This part here is the centre of town; am I right?
18 Q. Could you circle what you think is the centre of town, ma'am.
19 A. This one here.
20 Q. Thank you. So if that's the centre of town, can you tell me
21 approximately where Mahala e Hadumit is.
22 A. Mahala e Hadumit must be in this direction.
23 Q. Could you make an indication on the screen of a number 1?
24 A. From the street lights you go south and this is where
25 Mahala e Hadumit should be.
1 Q. Okay. And I see a little red mark on there. Could you make
2 that 1 a little bit bigger where you made that mark, ma'am.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you. And could you tell me, then, where Rruga e Mullirit
5 is on this map.
6 A. Well, it is Rruga e Qabrat but part of it is called
7 Rruga e Mullirit. It is right next to Mahala e Hadumit.
8 Q. Right next to it in which direction, to the right or to the left
9 or above it or below it?
10 A. To the right, as you go towards my house. There's a small
11 pathway from my house and then you get to this street.
12 Q. And approximately where would your house be on this map, ma'am,
13 if you can tell?
14 A. I find it difficult to orientate myself in this map; however,
15 I'll try. From the centre you have to go this way to get to my house.
16 Q. Ma'am, I can't quite see what you've marked on there. Can you
17 draw a little bit darker, approximately where you think your house would
19 A. As I said, from the centre you take the road and it should be
21 Q. So just a little bit farther underneath what you've already
22 marked; correct?
23 A. Yes, in that direction.
24 Q. And is the home that you're staying in on the evening of the
25 24th and the 25th, is that in the same area there?
1 A. Yes, in -- on Qabrati road or street, that's where it is.
2 Q. And later on you discussed the big temple that you took shelter
3 in. Is that also located in these areas or is it further out anywhere on
4 the map?
5 A. It is on the opposite part from where I live. You have to go
6 through an alley-way and then get to that part.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MS. O'LEARY: And, Your Honour, I would tender this map.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00352.
11 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, ma'am.
12 Q. You stated that your house at the time was in a family compound
13 surrounded by a high wall. Can you tell me approximately how high these
14 walls were?
15 A. It must have been about 2 metres high.
16 Q. And approximately how thick were the walls?
17 A. Well, the normal thickness of all surrounding walls.
18 Q. Would you be able to tell me in centimetres?
19 A. 20 centimetres, the thickness of a brick I would say.
20 Q. Thank you. And they circled the entire perimeter of the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Ma'am, I'd like to call up a blank piece of paper actually
24 at D004-3445.
25 MS. O'LEARY: If it's not in the e-court system yet, then
1 alternatively a blank screen should suffice.
2 Q. Ma'am, I was wondering if you could just draw a couple of things
3 in a quick diagram that would help us understand the relation of all the
4 buildings in your compound so we can better understand that evening. If
5 you could start off and draw a large square that would indicate the walls
6 of the compound. You can draw right on the screen that's in front of
7 you. And actually --
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you so much. I was thinking of actually a little bit
10 larger because that will be the walls and we'll draw the houses within
12 MS. O'LEARY: So if we could just clear the screen and redo it
13 one more time.
14 Q. And just draw a very large square, ma'am.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you. And can you put a G where the gate would be in your
18 A. This is the surrounding wall. You said what letter? G?
19 Q. G where the gate is.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you, ma'am. Are there any other entrances or exits or is
22 it just the one gate?
23 A. This is the only one.
24 Q. And approximately how wide was that gate?
25 A. The gate was approximately 2 metres. I'm only speaking
1 approximately. I can't give you the exact length or height.
2 Q. Thank you, ma'am. If you could draw three smaller boxes inside
3 that box that would indicate the three homes that are in the compound:
4 the three buildings, your home, your mother-in-law's home, and the summer
5 house I believe you referred to it as.
6 A. My brother-in-law's house was here, my house was here, and the
7 summer house was here.
8 Q. Can you mark your home with a number 1, please.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And your brother-in-law's house with a number 2.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And the summer house with a 3, please.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And so by this diagram, your house was closest to the gate; is
15 that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And approximately how far is it from your house -- the edge of
18 your house, to the gate?
19 A. About 10 metres, maybe less.
20 Q. And the main street is directly outside that gate; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you know approximately how many square metres the whole
23 entirety of the yard would be within the walls?
24 A. It's about 5 acres [as interpreted], I think.
25 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And are there any other buildings within those
2 A. No. The old house was a historical building. It was a
3 200-years'-old house.
4 Q. Which house was that, ma'am?
5 A. The one where my brother-in-law lived and my mother-in-law as
7 Q. The one at number 2; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you very much for that. That helped me orient myself on
11 MS. O'LEARY: If I could tender this, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00353.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?
15 MS. O'LEARY: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE PARKER: We must have a break now, and we'll resume at
17 11.00, and a Court Officer will assist you during the break. Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.
21 Yes, Ms. O'Leary.
22 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Ms. Dula, when we left we were talking about your compound and we
24 were discussing the layout. The gate on the door, you said in your
25 statement, afforded you full privacy from the road. So you couldn't see
1 the road from your compound, from within the compound; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on the evening of March 24th and going into the morning of
4 March 25th, you said you heard a commotion out in the streets around
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you said specifically it was voices and that caught your
8 attention because it would be unusual for people to gather in the street
9 late at night; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. So is it safe to say that it was quiet entirely up until
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you were in your home with your family at that time?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And, ma'am, how old were your children at that time?
17 A. My daughter was 18; my son was younger, 16 and a half; and the
18 youngest was about 12.
19 Q. Thank you. And at that time your sister, is it, was with her --
20 with your brother-in-law, your mother-in-law, and their children in the
21 house that was marked number 2; correct?
22 A. Yes, my mother-in-law, my sister-in-law, my brother-in-law, and
23 their two children.
24 Q. Ma'am, just to clarify your familial relationships, is this your
25 sister or your sister-in-law?
1 A. It's my sister-in-law, not my sister.
2 Q. Are these relatives of your husband then?
3 A. My husband's brother.
4 Q. So your mother-in-law, then, you're referring to your husband's
5 mother; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. And how old were their two children at that time?
8 A. One was 3; and the other, 2 years old.
9 Q. And at the time you heard these voices speaking outside the wall
10 then, you said they were speaking Serbian and that because of the NATO
11 action you became quickly concerned. Could you hear what the voices were
12 saying, ma'am?
13 A. While they were out in the street, I couldn't make anything of
14 their voices; when they entered our courtyard, I could hear them cursing.
15 Q. Thank you. And at this time you heard the voices you would have
16 been inside your house, they would have been outside the wall, and there
17 was approximately 10 metres' distance between, at least, as you said;
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you could distinguish that it was Serbian they were speaking;
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So they were speaking pretty loud?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you say they were shouting?
1 A. They were talking among themselves.
2 Q. And at some point your husband was concerned and went out to
3 barricade the door then; is that correct?
4 A. The gate was locked and my husband was not able to go outside.
5 Maybe this was a mistake in my statement that I wish to correct.
6 Q. Perhaps, ma'am. On page 2 in the English version of your
7 statement - and your statement is P1268, if we want to call it up, I'm
8 not sure which page in Albanian, possibly 2, potentially on page 3 - but
9 I'll read you the sentence I'm referring to. You say:
10 "Because of the NATO action that night, I quickly became
11 concerned. My husband went into the yard and placed wood against our
12 gate which opens inward as a makeshift barricade."
13 Are you saying now that that didn't happen?
14 A. I'm not changing my statement. I already stated that when the
15 NATO attack started the gate to the yard was locked. My husband went
16 from the room to the corridor when he heard the commotion, when he saw
17 that the yard was getting filled with policemen.
18 Q. Ma'am, what time did the NATO attacks start that evening?
19 A. To my recollection it was sometime after 8.00 p.m. I don't know
20 if this is the exact time.
21 Q. And you're referring to the 24th of March that evening, at
22 8.00 p.m.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when you say the NATO attacks started, do you mean that there
25 were air-strikes on Djakovica at that time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So when you were saying that it was quiet up until midnight
3 didn't refer to the NATO air-strikes, you simply meant that there were no
4 voices in the street; correct?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. Because from 8.00 on there was obviously some air noise, perhaps
7 explosions going on?
8 A. There were some air noise and we went inside the house. There
9 was no need for us to remain outside.
10 Q. And so from 8.00 on that night you were all inside the house and
11 nobody left?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So nobody went out to make a barricade for the door; is that
15 A. No, nobody went out. As I said, the gate was locked, as we
16 usually lock it during the night.
17 Q. Okay, ma'am. The reason I ask about that is because when you
18 speak about him making this barricade it's after you hear the voices,
19 after midnight
20 barricade earlier in the evening and that basically he locked the gate
21 earlier in the evening. Is that correct?
22 A. I stated what I already told you several times now. I made a
23 correction to this part of my statement. There was probably
24 misinterpretation or it was erroneously translated.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
1 Did you ever then during the night speak with your
2 brother-in-law's family?
3 A. No. They were in their own house; we were in our house.
4 Q. Thank you. And at some point in the night you said you heard the
5 sound of wood burning outside the bazaar and the distinctive crack of
6 flames; that's correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And in your statement that comes after midnight, approximately
9 1.30 I believe it is; is that correct?
10 A. Approximately. I don't know exactly what time it was. We were
11 going through difficult times then.
12 Q. Thank you, ma'am. In your statement you don't note seeing the
13 fire or smelling any fire. Did you see or smell any fire at this time?
14 A. While I was in my own house I wasn't able to see or smell any
15 fire because you cannot see anything from my house. But when we left to
16 this other house, it's then when I was able to see the flames.
17 Q. Thank you, ma'am. Moving on to the third page of your statement
18 you say:
19 "Around 1.30 the compound gate flew open having been struck with
20 what I subsequently recognised to be a police jeep."
21 But you've now corrected this today for us and said that you
22 didn't actually see this, did you?
23 A. I didn't see anything myself when they entered the yard, but my
24 mother-in-law, whose house was just opposite the gate, could see it.
25 She's 90 years old now.
1 Q. So at the time she was about 80 years old; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, 81.
3 Q. And she was in your brother-in-law's house when she saw this;
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And be -- you placed that house further from the gate, we could
7 say that it's more than 10 metres away then, at least; correct? Do you
8 have any estimate of how far your brother's house is from the gate --
9 your brother-in-law's house, excuse me, from the gate?
10 A. From my house the gate is about 10 metres away; his house is a
11 little bit further away, I would say about 15 metres from the gate.
12 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And when did she tell you she had seen this?
13 A. The following day when we met.
14 Q. And what did she tell you exactly that she saw?
15 A. She told me how they were taken outside the house, how they
16 detained her son. She wanted to remain with her son, but she was made to
17 go outside with her daughter-in-law and the two children.
18 Q. Ma'am, I don't have any of that in your statement, so we'll get
19 to that actually as far as what happened later that evening. But I just
20 want to discuss the police jeep that she said she saw right now. So if
21 you could tell me what she said exactly happened when she said a police
22 jeep crashed through the gates.
23 A. They entered like madmen, she said. They were firing on all
24 sides of the yard.
25 Q. How did your mother know this was a police jeep? Did she tell
1 you or did she just say "police"?
2 A. Most probably she knew it was a police car because we saw police
3 cars on a daily basis.
4 Q. So when she told you the story about the gate being crashed in,
5 she used the words "police jeep"; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. She didn't actually describe the vehicle?
8 A. No, she didn't.
9 Q. And so then you go on to describe the 30 people that had entered
10 into your yard firing automatic weapons in no particular direction as
11 they advanced. You actually saw this part, ma'am?
12 A. No, I didn't. It was my mother-in-law who told me this. She
13 said there were about 30 of them who entered the yard.
14 Q. Did you see anything in your yard that evening, ma'am?
15 A. Yes. I only saw this red light on the yard.
16 Q. You saw a red light in the yard, but you didn't see any of the
17 individuals, did you?
18 A. I did see individuals as they climbed that part of the balcony
19 which is near to the entrance to the house.
20 Q. So a second ago you said you didn't see the 30 people enter into
21 the yard firing automatic weapons. So the first time you saw them is
22 when they were coming on to your balcony of your house, on the front
23 steps; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. The entrance door to the corridor is made of glass and you
25 could see them. As I was leaving, I could see them.
1 Q. So am I correct to understand that you saw the men coming up to
2 your door-step -- to your front steps, and at that point it's when you
3 left out the back window; is that correct, ma'am?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the glass in your door, is it transparent or is it opaque?
6 A. Yes, it's transparent. I could see them but they could not see
8 Q. Was there any curtain in the window, ma'am?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And was it pulled shut at that time?
11 A. Yes, they were pulled shut.
12 Q. Was there a curtain on this transparent glass door?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you talk about a red light and you say that everything was in
15 this red light but you don't know the source of it; is that correct?
16 A. The light was coming from the gate, from the entrance to the
18 Q. And it was dark outside at this time; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And so the only lighting was this red lighting; yes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And so you saw these men coming up your steps very briefly;
23 that's correct, ma'am?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But you note they were wearing -- in your statement you say "blue
1 camouflage uniform of the Serbian police," and you say you're positive of
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What made you so positive?
5 A. As I said, through the glass of the entrance door to the corridor
6 I saw one of them dressed in that uniform.
7 Q. So of the people you saw, you saw one man in a blue camouflage
8 uniform; is that correct?
9 A. I only saw that one which was nearer to the door, as I was trying
10 to flee.
11 Q. And you say it was definitely not the uniform of soldiers in your
12 statement, why not?
13 A. I didn't see any military uniform there.
14 Q. Can you describe what you mean by a military uniform that you
15 would expect to see?
16 A. A military uniform is greyish.
17 Q. Is it solid colour?
18 A. Yes, the military one.
19 Q. Did you see -- in that brief moment that you saw this one person,
20 did you see any sort of insignia or armband?
21 A. No, it was impossible to notice any insignia because, as I said,
22 I happened to see him through the glass door as I was trying to leave the
24 Q. So the only lighting you would have had to see this man who was
25 coming up your steps was in a red light; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that red light can change the colour that
3 you see?
4 A. Could you repeat your question, please?
5 Q. Certainly. Would you agree with me that if you have a red light
6 shining on an object it can change the way you see the colour of the
7 object; is that correct?
8 A. I believe it cannot change the way you see the colour because
9 through light you can see the object.
10 Q. So you don't believe that the red light affected the colour you
12 A. The blue colour can be distinguished under any other colour
14 Q. So you don't believe with me that a blue colour under a red light
15 might actually appear black?
16 A. Not black. You can still tell it's blue.
17 Q. And at this time did you hear any voices speaking Albanian,
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you hear any other languages other than Serbian?
21 A. Only Serbian. I could hear them swear in my own yard.
22 Q. And so at this point you and your family went out the back
23 window; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And by your accounts there are 30 police officers entering the
1 yard according to your mother-in-law at this time; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You made the statement that the police officers did not give
4 chase; is that accurate?
5 A. No, they didn't.
6 Q. And you didn't speak to any of these people she defined as police
7 officers; correct?
8 A. I didn't.
9 Q. Was it possible these people that you saw in camouflage were
10 actually doing evacuations related to fire and/or missiles?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was it possible that they're not police, that they're actually
14 A. I wouldn't know.
15 Q. Was it possible they were VJ?
16 A. No, not soldiers.
17 Q. Because of the uniform?
18 A. Yes, because of the uniform.
19 Q. Was it possible they were UCK?
20 A. Impossible.
21 Q. Why is that, ma'am?
22 A. It hadn't happened before. We never heard of such a case.
23 Q. But you've stated today you had no contact with them, so you
24 can't be certain who they were exactly, can you?
25 A. Well, you can understand who they are because of their accent.
1 When they speak then you can see who they are.
2 Q. But you don't know what they wanted either, do you, ma'am?
3 A. That was all happening very suddenly. We did not expect that to
4 happen. My children were asleep as a matter of fact.
5 Q. You say your children were asleep at the time that you went out
6 the window?
7 A. No, but I woke them up previously, before we heard the commotion.
8 Q. The timing of that in your statement is a little bit different
9 actually, because you're talking in your statement - and again we're on
10 page 2 of the English, page 2 of the Albanian, if you want to look at the
11 bottom - where you discuss that at approximately midnight you heard this
12 commotion in the street. And you go on to say it would be unusual and
13 everyone was in their respective homes. And you said:
14 "By listening closer I established that the voices were
15 that ... speaking Serbian and, because of the NATO action that night, I
16 quickly became concerned."
17 This is where you said:
18 "My husband went into the yard and placed wood against our gate,
19 which opens inwards, as a makeshift barricade. We stayed in our houses,
20 where I woke my children ... hoping the voices would go away."
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel read slowly, please.
22 MS. O'LEARY: I apologise, sorry.
23 Q. "Placed a piece of wood" - is where we're at here - "against our
24 gate, which opens inwards," and -- "as a makeshift barricade. We stayed
25 in our houses, where I woke my children, and waited, hoping the voices
1 would go away."
2 So did you wake your children before you heard the voices or
3 after, ma'am?
4 A. As soon as I heard the commotion in the street and the voices, I
5 woke my children up. I also told the other people I spoke to during the
6 proofing that this needs to be corrected. I did not say that my husband
7 went to put wood against the gate as it is in the statement. I corrected
9 Q. Are you saying you made other changes to your statement in
10 proofing that weren't reflected here today, ma'am?
11 A. There were some mistakes, things that I had not said the way they
12 were reflected in the statement.
13 Q. We went through some of them on direct. Are they all corrected
15 A. Yes, the Prosecutor mentioned all the mistakes, and they were
17 Q. Except for in this paragraph there were a couple of changes you
18 just made now about the timing of the barricade and waking your children;
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And when you went out the back window and you
22 went to, as you describe it, a stranger's house in Rruga e Mullirit - I
23 apologise if I'm mispronouncing the neighbourhood - but how long did it
24 take you to get to this house?
25 A. We had to jump about three or four other walls until we got
2 Q. So you're saying it's about three or four compounds away?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Why did you decide to stay there, ma'am?
5 A. It was not a decision that we made. We just remained there. We
6 had no force or strength left in us to go any further.
7 Q. But it doesn't sound like it was that far away from your house.
8 Did you feel safe at this stranger's house?
9 A. I felt safer there because the part of the town where I lived was
10 all in flames.
11 Q. Why wouldn't the flames extend to this part, ma'am?
12 A. The flames were on the street. This house was in a different
13 part, on another street.
14 Q. Do you know whose house this was, ma'am?
15 A. I know the surname. Their surname was Ymeraga. But I don't know
16 who exactly owned the house.
17 Q. Did you know at the time who was living there?
18 A. We found an old lady there. There was nobody else. We did not
19 get into the house. We stayed in the courtyard.
20 Q. So you stayed there that evening in the courtyard; is that
21 correct, ma'am?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the old lady, was she in the house?
24 A. Initially she stayed inside the house, but then she came to the
25 yard with us, to stay with us.
1 Q. Approximately how old was she, ma'am?
2 A. About 70 or 80 years old.
3 Q. Thank you. And you remained in the courtyard the whole evening
4 with your husband and your three children and sometimes this woman; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. Ma'am, in your statement on page 3, in the middle, third
8 paragraph in the bottom, you say after you say you sought refuge there
10 "From an upper floor at this house I could see my home, together
11 with many of the surrounding buildings, was on fire. As we waited at the
12 stranger's house I could hear voices speaking and shouting in Serbian."
13 Ma'am, if you didn't go into the house, how were you on the upper
15 A. No, there's -- there are no changes in the statement. We could
16 see from the upper floor what was going on in the other part of town. We
17 just went there for a couple of seconds and then went back to the yard.
18 Q. So at some point you did go into her home?
19 A. Yes, yes, just to see what was going on, just briefly.
20 Q. But twice just now you've said you remained in the courtyard the
21 whole evening. You said you never went in the home. Why did you say
22 that you didn't go into the home?
23 A. Well, this is not at all different from what I said before. I
24 had also mentioned before that I went to observe what was going on.
25 Q. Well, just before today at transcript 47, lines 22 and 23, you
2 "We found an old lady there. There was nobody else. We did not
3 get into the house. We stayed in the courtyard."
4 But now you're saying you did go into the house?
5 A. We stayed in the yard the whole time, yes. A little after we
6 went there, I went to see what was going on outside, I went to the upper
7 floor, but then went to the yard again.
8 Q. So how long were you in the house, ma'am?
9 A. It was about a couple of seconds. I just observed -- was trying
10 to observe what was going on outside and immediately went to the yard
12 Q. Did any other of your family members go into the house, ma'am?
13 A. It was just me.
14 Q. So at some point -- do you know what time it was in the evening
15 that you went into the house?
16 A. It was in the first -- in the early hours of the morning, before
17 dawn I would say.
18 Q. And dawn at that time would be closer to 6.00, 7.00 in the
20 A. No, earlier than that, 4.00, 4.30. It had not dawned yet.
21 Q. And this is in March; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So when you went in for a brief second, you went upstairs, you
24 looked out a window, I'm presuming, and what did you see?
25 A. I saw my house engulfed in flames.
1 Q. Did you see anything else?
2 A. The roofs of the house -- the roofs of the shops and the roof of
3 my house were all burning.
4 Q. So from up there for that second you saw just the roofs of
5 everything burning; is that correct, ma'am?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then you went back down into the yard, and I'm assuming that
8 there are walls on this yard too because you said you crawled over three
9 or four walls to get here, so there are walls around this compound as
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were they approximately 2 metres like yours?
13 A. All surrounding walls are of the same height.
14 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And at that time you said about 4.30 in the
15 morning, before it was light, you say in your statement, so we consider
16 dawn to be after 4.30 that day - I heard what I considered to be
17 shelling, loud explosions coming from the area of your house. My
18 thoughts at that time were that the area was being completely destroyed.
19 So you were in the courtyard when you heard this, ma'am?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And from the stranger's house you said that you still heard
22 speaking and shouting in Serbian; is that correct?
23 A. I did, but it was in my own yard that I heard the exact swear
24 words that they used.
25 Q. So is it fair to say that from the stranger's house you just
1 heard voices; it wasn't as distinct as it was at your house?
2 A. No, they weren't, you're correct.
3 Q. But it was loud enough you could still hear it was Serbian;
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And did you believe that the voices that you were still hearing
7 were the ones coming from your house or were they coming from a different
8 direction, ma'am?
9 A. They were coming from the direction of my house.
10 Q. And, ma'am, at 4.30 when you heard these explosions, is it
11 possible that those were NATO air-strikes?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Because I could hear explosions from the roofs of the shops and
16 Q. And what did you imagine those explosions to be?
17 A. I think they were caused by the group of policemen that entered
18 our yard. That part of town was destroyed by them.
19 Q. But you didn't actually see anybody setting off explosions?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is it possible the explosions could have been electrical or
22 related to the fires that were ongoing?
23 A. Because these houses were set on fire from the inside. The
24 explosions were from the inside.
25 Q. How do you know they were from the inside?
1 A. We could see the flames. I could see the flames coming out of
2 our -- out of the windows of my house.
3 Q. Ma'am, to be clear, all you actually saw was burning roofs;
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Going back to NATO air-strikes, on page 2 of your statement you
8 "I was aware that NATO commenced an air offensive in
10 to remain at home in Gjakove, regardless of the NATO air campaign, as we
11 firmly believed that such a campaign would not present any danger to us."
12 Is that accurate, ma'am?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. We were not afraid of NATO attacks.
14 Q. And when did you first learn about the NATO air-strikes or the
15 potential for NATO air-strikes?
16 A. I heard it on the TV and the news.
17 Q. Were they Serbian stations or Albanian stations, ma'am?
18 A. To tell you the truth, most of them were Serbian.
19 Q. But I noticed on the picture of your home that there was a
20 satellite. You were still receiving Albanian television via satellite?
21 A. My children used to watch their programmes. I did not have time
22 to watch TV that much. My children used to watch films and so on.
23 Q. But you were receiving Albanian stations at that time; correct?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And in that statement you gave your family's intention and belief
1 about whether you should leave. Did you have family discussions about
2 whether you should leave due to NATO air-strikes?
3 A. No, because we didn't think that we had to leave if NATO would
4 commence their air-strikes.
5 Q. And you say that in your statement that nobody left because of
6 NATO. How do you know that nobody left?
7 A. The people that lived next to me, my neighbourhoods with whom I
8 had contact, I never heard from them say that they were going to leave
9 because of the air-strikes.
10 Q. And by this statement you meant that nobody left in advance of
11 March 24th because of the NATO bombings; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And this is what you've -- the conclusion you came to discussing
14 with your local neighbours; yes?
15 A. Yes, of course. They all said that it's not necessary to leave
16 because of that.
17 Q. And when you refer to nobody again here, do you mean only
18 Albanians or do you include Serbs, Bosnians, Roma, other ethnicities?
19 A. I did not have any contact with other ethnicities. The people
20 who lived in my neighbourhood, they all said that there was no need for
21 us to leave because of the air-strikes.
22 Q. And your entire neighbourhood was Albanian; is that what you're
23 saying, ma'am?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are you aware of NATO bombs ever striking Gjakove?
1 A. Not in the part of town where I lived.
2 Q. Where did you hear about them striking?
3 A. At that time we did not have time to ask questions of that sort.
4 We were all stressed.
5 Q. After that time, what did you learn, ma'am?
6 A. Later I heard that they struck their objectives.
7 Q. What were their objectives, ma'am?
8 A. I don't know. I don't know what their targets were. I was just
9 a simple housewife. I was taking care of my family's day-to-day living
10 and feeding. I did not take part in such discussions.
11 Q. I understand, but you had said they had struck their objectives,
12 so I just wondered what you meant by that. Do you believe that they ever
13 struck -- there was any collateral damage as a result of these bombings?
14 A. No. I did not have the opportunity to hear about such collateral
15 damage. We were stressed. We were distressed, as a matter of fact, at
16 the time.
17 Q. Of course at the time, ma'am. I was speaking about in the
18 subsequent nine, ten years here what you had heard. Did you ever hear
19 that civilians were killed accidentally by these bombs?
20 A. I did not hear anything about such things.
21 Q. So I want to talk about the next morning, on the 25th you say
22 that you were very concerned about your mother-in-law so you returned to
23 go get her; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were you alone or did your whole family go?
1 A. Initially I went there myself because I was afraid to take the
2 whole family.
3 Q. And about what time of morning was it now?
4 A. It had already dawned, but I am not able to tell you the exact
5 time now.
6 Q. Okay. And you state that when you were on your way back did you
7 go the same route -- you didn't actually tell us, but did you go the same
8 route that you went to the stranger's house, over those same three or
9 four walls?
10 A. No, I took another route. It's a shorter route that takes you
11 directly to my house.
12 Q. And you were out on the street then; yes, ma'am?
13 A. There are pathways between the surrounding walls of the compounds
14 and you can go through them to get to the house.
15 Q. And did you go directly to your compound?
16 A. No, I didn't go there directly. I was trying to see whether
17 there was anybody around, whether I was in any danger or not, and then I
18 moved to my house.
19 Q. And what opportunity did you have to see the destruction then at
20 the bazaar, was that on your way into your compound or was that later in
21 the day?
22 A. On the way back to my house.
23 Q. And if you were concerned for your mother-in-law, you probably
24 didn't take a long time to assess the damage on the way there then, did
1 A. Yes, I could see the things that had been destroyed on the way to
2 my house.
3 Q. But you didn't stop-off and look at anything, did you; you went
4 directly to see how your mother-in-law was doing. Correct?
5 A. Yes, while I was walking I was looking around.
6 Q. And at that time were some of the buildings still burning?
7 A. Yes, that part was still in flames.
8 Q. Was anything being done to put the flames out?
9 A. No.
10 MS. O'LEARY: If we could see P1105 on the screen, please.
11 Q. Ma'am, you state that you were shocked to see the level of
12 destruction that had taken place in your neighbourhood, and we looked at
13 some photographs in your direct exam. I'm going to call one of them up
14 here actually. I believe it was zoomed in on the bottom photo.
15 Ma'am, this was the photo that you earlier today; is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And is that what it looked like when you were walking home?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you don't know the date of this photograph, do you, ma'am?
21 A. I don't know the date when this photograph was taken; however, I
22 know that this part of town was in flames.
23 Q. You don't know who took this photograph, do you, ma'am?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. O'LEARY: And if we could look at P1270.
2 Q. And these are some of the pictures that we're going to look at
3 from your house. Ma'am, when you discussed this in direct exam I was
4 trying to figure out what exactly is this a picture of then, is this by
5 the gate?
6 A. Yes. It was caused, this damage, as they broke into the yard.
7 Q. So those walls that we're looking at, that's the height of the
8 walls, those are the compound walls, ma'am?
9 A. Yes. This is the street and this is the gate to the courtyard.
10 Q. Since you have that pointer there, could you draw in where the
11 gate should be, ma'am.
12 A. This one here.
13 Q. And so is this taken from -- I'm just trying to figure out what
14 these walls are, then, on the outside that extend out. There are walls
15 that came out? Your gate was set in; is that correct?
16 A. These are the walls of the shops on this side. This part of the
17 door was attached or next to the wall of the shop, and this one here is
18 the door to the house.
19 Q. Can you circle the walls that adjoined with the shop, please.
20 A. This one here joined to the gate, from here to here.
21 Q. And the shops were to the right and the left or only to the
23 A. Both sides.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. O'LEARY: Can we tender this photo, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
2 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D00354.
4 MS. O'LEARY: And if we could go to page 2 of these photographs
6 Q. Now, these photographs were taken upon your return from Albania
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And upon your return from Austria
10 A. Yes, upon our return from Austria
11 Q. So that's approximately six months later; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So these pictures were now taken in about September of 1999?
14 A. These pictures were taken immediately after the war, when we came
16 Q. And this is a picture of your house, ma'am; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. O'LEARY: If we could go to page -- picture 3 I guess it
19 would be.
20 Q. In this photo, ma'am, you were asked what the damage is on here,
21 all these black markings, and you said that it was related to fire;
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. And did you just assume that because you had seen your roof on
1 A. The whole house was on fire, not only the roof.
2 Q. Well, I'm not just asking, ma'am, that you're not qualified in
3 any way to certify fire damage, are you?
4 A. No, I'm not qualified in any way to certify that; however, when
5 you see flames coming out of windows you can immediately conclude that
6 these damages have been caused by the fire.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. That's common sense.
9 Q. Thank you. And if we look through the window we see another
10 house that's still standing there with a roof and intact. Whose home is
12 A. It's my neighbour's house.
13 Q. Was it within your compound?
14 A. No. No, no. It's in a different part.
15 Q. Well, ma'am, you said that the walls went all the way around the
16 perimeter, so I'm wondering how we can see that house. Is the wall gone
17 at that time?
18 A. No, it wasn't. This is taken from the second floor.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. O'LEARY: And if we go to the next photo, please.
21 Q. Now, ma'am, this is in your house?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And which floor is this on, ma'am?
24 A. It's the ground floor.
25 Q. And who took these photographs, ma'am?
1 A. My son.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to discuss a little bit the destruction
3 that you said you saw outside. And you said in your statement that the
4 minaret tower had been snapped and the top was now lying on the ground.
5 And you now today said it was destroyed in fact. How much of the top of
6 the minaret was lying on the ground that morning?
7 A. When I passed by, I was unable to see how much of the top of the
8 minaret was lying on the ground. All I could see was that it was lying
9 on the ground. And I could also see the damages around.
10 Q. Well, I'm just wondering how much of the top of the minaret was
11 on the ground. Was it snapped one-third of the way down, half the way
12 down, three-fourths of the way down? How much of the minaret was missing
13 at that point on the 25th of March?
14 A. I wouldn't know exactly how much. All I know it was the top part
15 of the minaret.
16 MS. O'LEARY: If we could see P1104, please.
17 Q. Ma'am, you stated today with that photograph that this is the
18 damage or an accurate rendition of what you would have seen when you were
19 leaving on the 2nd of April; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is this how it looked on the 25th of March, or were you not able
22 to see it on that day?
23 A. I was not able to see everything. I was trying to get there as
24 soon as I could. All I noticed was the top part of the minaret.
25 Q. Thank you, ma'am. So going back then you enter your compound and
1 you were looking for your mother-in-law. Were you also looking for your
2 sister-in-law and her children?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who did you find first?
5 A. I found them all together with a neighbour, where they had taken
7 Q. At what point did they take shelter?
8 A. That night when they were made to leave the house and when they
9 detained my brother-in-law inside the house.
10 Q. And your brother-in-law, as we saw from the photos today, was
11 found with a wound to his stomach; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What kind of wound was it, ma'am?
14 A. To tell you the truth, I saw this wound to his stomach. It was a
15 horrible wound. I could no longer look at it. It was very big, and I
16 just left immediately.
17 Q. Well, I'm not asking you to describe the wound. I'm sorry if I
18 was unclear. I'm just wondering what was the cause of death to your
19 brother-in-law, ma'am?
20 A. This part here of his body was all damaged.
21 Q. Do you know, ma'am, though, was it inflicted by a gun-shot or a
22 knife or some other manner?
23 A. I don't know that.
24 Q. So you don't know his cause of death?
25 A. I don't, no. At that particular moment I was unable to tell what
1 had caused his death. I was horrified.
2 Q. Of course, ma'am. But did you subsequently at any time learn his
3 cause of death?
4 A. No. All I know is that we found bullet casings and holes on the
6 Q. You didn't witness him being killed, did you, ma'am?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. And you mentioned some other people today that were killed, an
9 Astrit Rexha?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you didn't see him killed either, did you, ma'am?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. About how old was he?
14 A. About 30 something, 35 or 6. I don't know exactly.
15 Q. Do you have any indication of when he was killed?
16 A. No, I don't have any indication when he was killed. When we came
17 back to our home after the war, we were told that he was missing, that he
18 could no longer be found alive. He was dead.
19 Q. So it's assumed that he was killed because he's missing; correct,
21 A. He was separated from the convoy. His mother explained to us how
22 he was separated from the convoy.
23 Q. Where was this, ma'am?
24 A. In Gjakove.
25 Q. In Gjakove city or in the municipality?
1 A. In Gjakove city.
2 Q. And you mentioned another name, Agim Haxhi Avdylu, did you
3 witness him being murdered?
4 A. Avdyli.
5 Q. Avdyli, thank you, ma'am. Did you witness him being murdered?
6 A. No, I didn't. His mother told me about this. His mother is
7 actually my mother-in-law's sister.
8 Q. About how old was this man?
9 A. About the same age as the other one.
10 Q. And do they know that he was killed or is he also missing?
11 A. I don't know. She said that they had killed her son.
12 Q. But you don't know any of the specifies, do you, ma'am?
13 A. No, I don't know any details.
14 Q. And in your compound there were the three homes and you said that
15 yours sustained fire damage. There was also fire damage to the summer
16 home I believe it was?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But your brother-in-law's home was not damaged by fire?
19 A. No, it wasn't.
20 Q. And as we saw in that other photo, your neighbour's home wasn't
21 damaged by fire?
22 A. No, it wasn't either.
23 Q. You didn't actually see how your house caught fire, did you,
25 A. No, I didn't. I only saw the flames coming out from the windows
1 and I saw the flames coming out of the roof.
2 Q. Thank you. And before you went on to gather your mother-in-law,
3 you stated at one point while you were still in the stranger's yard, I
4 believe, that:
5 "... every now and then we would see young men - who we assumed
6 were Kosovo Albanians - climbing over the perimeter walls of the garden
7 running from yard to yard. Clearly these men were running from something
8 or someone ..."
9 And this is on page 4 of your statement. Is that accurate?
10 A. Yes, they were most probably running from the police. I didn't
11 recognise their faces because this happened in the morning hours.
12 Q. And you say "young men." How old do you mean when you say "young
14 A. Twenty, 25, mostly 30, not older than that.
15 Q. How were these young men dressed?
16 A. Normal clothes, everyday clothes, most frequently we wear track
18 Q. So they were in civilian clothing; yes, ma'am?
19 A. Yes, yes, track suits, like young people wear.
20 Q. Were these possibly KLA members, ma'am?
21 A. No.
22 Q. How do you know that?
23 A. There was no indication that they were members of the KLA.
24 Q. What indication would you have expected to see if they were KLA
1 A. A gesture of self-defence. They were just running for their
2 lives. They were trying to escape.
3 Q. Would you have expected a uniform, ma'am?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever see KLA in Gjakove?
6 A. Not in the part where I live. We didn't have any contacts with
8 Q. Was your brother-in-law a member of the KLA?
9 A. [No verbal response]
10 Q. I see you're shaking your head. I guess that's a no, ma'am?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was your husband a member of the KLA?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were any of your family members members of the KLA?
15 A. No one from my family was a member of the KLA. We were
16 civilians, normal civilians.
17 Q. Were you aware that Gjakove was a major KLA-held area during that
18 time, ma'am?
19 A. No, I'm not.
20 Q. You weren't ever aware of their presence at all?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And you never saw a KLA uniform in Gjakove, in the city?
23 A. No, I wasn't interested in those things.
24 Q. Is it possible because KLA members sometimes wore civilian
1 A. I don't know.
2 MS. O'LEARY: Your Honours, this may be a good time to take a
3 break before I move into the last couple sections.
4 JUDGE PARKER: I was a little surprised there could be more.
5 MS. O'LEARY: We can continue on. I just wanted to -- the next
6 one's a bit more lengthy. We can continue -- I'm happy to continue --
7 JUDGE PARKER: That surprises me more, but we will give you the
8 courtesy of a break now so that you can look at it. We will resume at
9 five minutes to 1.00.
10 MS. O'LEARY: Of course. Thank you.
11 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now for another break and resume
12 at five to 1.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. O'Leary.
16 MS. O'LEARY: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Ms. Dula, I just have a few more questions relating to your
18 leaving Gjakove. You say that after you felt unsafe at your own house
19 you went to a shelter at the big temple; that's correct?
20 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
21 Q. Of course. You said that you felt unsafe at your house so you
22 decided to shelter at the big temple; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And there were approximately a hundred people there you had
25 stated; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the police visited three times in those eight days you
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you're certain in your statement that they're police
6 because -- and I quote:
7 " ... they have the same blue camo uniform as that night ..."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How many of these people who you term as police came in a group
11 to the big temple?
12 A. I could not see how many of them were, but the woman at whose
13 house we were sheltering said that policemen had come and they were
14 asking for things.
15 Q. This was the woman on the evening of the 24th and 25th?
16 A. Yes, the woman of the house.
17 Q. Well, I'm actually referring to your statement when you talk
18 about being at the big temple and you said that groups of police had
19 visit -- would visit this temple. You said in your statement - this is
20 on page 4:
21 "They did not harm anybody but would demand things from the
22 people they spoke to. They would ask for such things as car keys, money
23 and ... items of value ..."
24 So I'm wondering how many police came in a group to the big
25 temple that you're describing here?
1 A. I already said earlier that I don't know how many of them were,
2 but this woman came and said that they were asking for keys and
4 Q. So you never actually saw the police at the big temple; is that
6 A. No, we were inside.
7 Q. And so it's only that you spoke to the woman who you had seen on
8 the 25th and she said that this had happened; correct?
9 A. The woman that lived in that house.
10 Q. And then the following paragraph you state that:
11 "On the eighth day we saw a crowd of many people walking past the
12 temple, from the direction of the Qerim district of Gjakove. They were
13 escorted by a mixture of VJ soldiers and Serbian police and, we assumed,
14 were being led out of Gjakove. My family and I decided to join the crowd
15 and having done so we were asked to hand in our identity documents to our
17 Is this accurate? Other than there was the change of -- that you
18 had now said it was just the police and not the VJ, is that correct,
19 ma'am? I apologise.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And mostly what I was getting at in this paragraph is that you
22 say "I decided to join" -- "my family and I decided to join the crowd."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So nobody forced you to join this crowd; is that correct?
25 A. We decided ourselves to join the crowd because we saw them
1 walking by and we decided that we would go wherever the crowd would go.
2 Q. And when you say "we," are you speaking of your husband, your
3 children, and yourself or more of your extended family as well?
4 A. I include here my mother-in-law, the wife of my brother-in-law,
5 and their children as well.
6 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And when you joined into this group, did you
7 approach the officers that asked for your identification to say that you
8 wanted to join the group, or did they approach you?
9 A. No, we did not approach them and they did not approach us, did
10 not say anything. We joined the crowd.
11 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And it says:
12 "... having done so we were asked to hand our identity documents
13 to the escorts."
14 Who were the escorts that you were asked to give your identity
15 documents to?
16 A. The policemen.
17 Q. Who told you to give the identity documents to the policemen?
18 A. They did. They asked for the identity documents at the first
19 check-point. We had to leave there everything we had.
20 Q. So you weren't asked for your identity documents until you hit
21 the first check-point; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, at the first check-point and then additionally at the second
24 Q. And are you familiar with areas outside of Gjakove, ma'am, in
25 Kosovo? Have you travelled much before this time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know the route that you took to Qafa e Prushit?
3 A. No.
4 Q. But along the way you said that there were forces present. Can
5 you describe what forces were there?
6 A. They were police forces initially, and then after some time we
7 could see army.
8 Q. And the two times that you were asked for your identification,
9 how far out of Gjakove were you at the first check-point?
10 A. The first check-point is on the outskirts of Gjakove where the
11 town boundary is.
12 Q. And that's where you had told the police asking for them that
13 they were burned in your house?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did any of you have any identity documents with you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you had left yours in your home when you fled the night before
18 and it burnt there; correct?
19 A. Yes, yes. It wasn't possible for us to take anything. We just
20 wanted to get away and survive.
21 Q. Where were the identity documents of your mother-in-law,
22 sister-in-law, and the children?
23 A. I don't know, but they didn't have them on them either.
24 Q. Thank you. And you say:
25 "Interestingly the police responded by saying that NATO had in
1 fact burnt them up ..."
2 Ma'am, do you think that's possibly because the NATO air-strikes
3 had started the fire and that's what they meant by that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How far were you out of Gjakove at the second check-point?
6 A. The second check-point was located before the part where you get
7 to the border.
8 Q. And you stated today it was by barracks. What barracks are
10 A. That was a kind of a structure with a roof. It was an isolated
12 Q. But how did you know it was barracks, ma'am?
13 A. I could hear people that -- We are here at the sentry box. The
14 people that we were together with, that's what they were saying.
15 Q. And this was just before you reached Albania; correct?
16 A. Can you repeat that, please?
17 Q. Were these barracks at this second check-point, that's just
18 before you reached Albania
19 A. Yes, yes, but we had to walk a long way before we got to the
20 territory of Albania
21 Q. And you said at about this point you saw some damaging of
22 window-panes; is that correct?
23 A. Of the shops. Are you asking me about the shops?
24 Q. Yes, ma'am?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. But you don't know what town or village that was in, do you?
2 A. This was on the way from the house we were sheltering in onwards.
3 Q. When exactly did you see these windows being damaged? What date
5 A. On the same day we left together with the crowd.
6 Q. And the people you saw doing this, they were wearing what?
7 A. They were wearing police uniforms, the ones that I saw.
8 Q. So, again, blue camouflage; correct?
9 A. Yes, yes. I didn't dare look around very much. I just glanced
10 for a little bit. I just looked for a little bit and then straight
11 ahead. I couldn't look around very much.
12 Q. And how many people did you see doing this?
13 A. There were groups of them. I don't know how many.
14 Q. And all of them were wearing camouflage, the same colour you saw
15 that evening in your yard?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And the two times you were asked for identification, again by
18 people in blue camouflage; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, yes, the police.
20 Q. Did they have any other insignia or indication of -- that they
21 were police?
22 A. I couldn't tell whether there were any insignia. I just remember
23 the uniforms.
24 Q. Do you know where they were police from?
25 A. How could I know?
1 Q. Did they ever say why they were asking for your identification?
2 A. No, they didn't. They just collected them and put them in a box.
3 Q. Did you ever give a statement to anyone other than the ICTY,
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. O'LEARY: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. O'Leary.
9 Ms. Gopalan, you will need to finish by 1.45. Thank you.
10 MS. GOPALAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Re-examination by Ms. Gopalan:
12 Q. Madam Dula, I have a few questions for you arising from Defence
13 counsel's questions during cross-examination. During cross-examination
14 you were asked about the people who came to your home and expelled you,
15 you and your family, on the night of the 24th and 25th of March. This is
16 in page 45, line 7. You were asked about who they were and you said that
17 you can understand who they are because of their accent and that when
18 they spoke you can see who they are.
19 Could you tell us from the accent that you heard when they spoke,
20 what conclusion did you form as to who they were?
21 A. In my opinion, they were all policemen from Gjakove, from their
23 Q. What is it that you heard in their accent that indicated to you
24 that they were from Gjakove?
25 A. In Gjakove the Serbs living there had a different accent from the
1 other people elsewhere.
2 Q. Thank you. And just to clarify, what language is it that you
3 heard the Serbs speaking?
4 A. Serbian.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, moving on to your journey back to your home on
6 the morning of the 25th of March, you were asked whether you returned
7 directly to your family compound and you said:
8 "No, I did not go directly," because you were trying to see if
9 there was anybody around, "whether I was in any danger." This is in
10 page 55, line 9.
11 Could you tell us what sort of danger you were fearing on that
13 A. I feared for my life. I feared that I would be killed by
15 Q. Did you have any idea as to who would be -- who could have killed
16 you on that day?
17 A. I thought that the people who entered our yard would be around
18 there and they could kill me.
19 Q. You were also asked some questions about your brother-in-law and
20 his family - this is at page 61, line 1 - and you say that when you
21 returned on the morning of the 25th you saw your brother-in-law's family
22 with a neighbour where they had taken shelter. And you learned that that
23 family had been made to leave the house the night before and they had
24 detained your brother-in-law inside the house. Could you tell us who you
25 mean when you say "they detained my brother-in-law inside the house," if
1 you know?
2 A. The policemen who entered.
3 Q. And how did you learn this?
4 A. The policemen who attacked us that night were the same ones who
5 entered that part where my brother-in-law's house was.
6 Q. And did you learn why it is your brother-in-law was detained, if
7 you know?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, moving on to some questions you were asked about
10 Astrit Rexha, you explained that his mother had told you that he was
11 separated from a convoy. Now, this is page 62, line 24. Did you also
12 learn from his mother who had separated him from the convoy?
13 A. The policemen.
14 Q. Are you able to offer an approximation as to when this occurred,
15 if you know?
16 A. I wouldn't know.
17 Q. Did his mother indicate to you when it was he was separated from
18 the convoy approximately, if you know?
19 A. No, she didn't mention the date to me.
20 Q. Did she provide a time-period, even if she didn't specify the
22 A. That month when we were expelled from our town, within this
24 Q. Thank you, Madam Dula. Now, you were also asked some questions
25 about the NATO attack in Djakovica - this is in page 37, line 1 - and you
1 said that the attack started at around 8.00 p.m. on the 24th of March.
2 And you agreed with Defence counsel that on that night from around 8.00
3 you and your family went inside your house and nobody left. Just to
4 clarify, is it correct that in response to the NATO attack that took
5 place around the -- around 8.00 p.m.
6 returned to your home, you went inside your home and stayed inside?
7 A. No. At that time we were not afraid of NATO.
8 Q. Thank you. You say that you were not afraid of NATO, and
9 therefore what happened at around 8.00 when the NATO attack started
10 happening? What did you and your family do in response?
11 A. We stayed inside the house.
12 Q. Thank you. And when is it you left your home at that time? What
13 happened that made you subsequently leave your home?
14 A. The attack by the police, the attack from the ground, the police
15 that entered our courtyard.
16 Q. Thank you, Madam Dula. Now, you were also asked some questions
17 about the window-panes that you saw damaged. You say they were damaged
18 by men wearing police uniform and that you didn't dare look much. This
19 was in page 71, line 16. I'd like to know where it is you saw these men
20 damaging the window-panes, in which town, if you know?
21 A. In Gjakove when we joined the convoy and as we were walking along
22 with the convoy.
23 Q. Thank you, Madam Dula. You were also asked some questions by
24 Defence counsel about the buildings in your family compound. You were
25 asked about the home of your brother-in-law. If I could just take you to
1 the section. You say:
2 "A. The old house was a historical building. It was a
3 200-years'-old house."
4 "Q. Which house was that, ma'am?
5 "A. The one where my brother-in-law" --
6 A. I'm talking here about my brother-in-law's house, the house where
7 he lived. This is the house that was about 200 years old.
8 Q. Thank you, Madam Dula. Now, did any other buildings, any of the
9 other houses in your family compound, also have historical significance,
10 if you know?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And could you tell us what was the condition of this 200-year-old
13 house when you went back to the family compound on the next day?
14 A. I simply couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the damage inside.
15 There were bullet-holes all over the walls.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Madam Dula.
17 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, I do not have any further questions
18 for this witness.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
20 Mrs. Dula, you'll be pleased to know that that concludes the
21 questions for you. The Chamber is grateful that you've been able to come
22 to The Hague
23 received and which we'll be able to consider in due course. We thank you
24 for that. You may, of course, now return to your normal life and
25 activities, and the Court Officer will assist you. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Gopalan.
4 MS. GOPALAN: Your Honours, the next witness, as we indicated via
5 e-mail, is K20, who should be available to testify tomorrow provided that
6 her health situation is stable. In the meantime, in the remainder of the
7 session, Ms. Kravetz has a procedural application to make.
8 JUDGE PARKER: That's a very neat way of passing the baton.
9 Ms. Kravetz.
10 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour, and I hope it will only
11 take a couple of minutes. It's a procedural matter that concerns the
12 testimony of Mr. Byrnes of last Friday. We would like to make an oral
13 application to change the status of his -- of a portion of his testimony
14 of last Friday from confidential to public and this is a portion at pages
15 8228 to 8229.
16 As Your Honours probably remember, we heard that portion of the
17 evidence in private session in order to protect material that is subject
18 to Rule 70 restrictions. The Rule 70 provider has since reviewed the
19 entire transcript and has agreed to release that portion of the
20 transcript to the public.
21 So at this stage we would apply for an order of the Trial Chamber
22 to modify the status from a confidential/private to open/public session.
23 That's all, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Is this the whole of pages 8228 and 8229?
25 MS. KRAVETZ: I believe the private session starts somewhere at
1 the top of 8228 --
2 JUDGE PARKER: It's the whole of that section?
3 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes.
4 JUDGE PARKER: There would seem to be no reason for resisting
5 that motion; it will be granted.
6 We therefore should adjourn now to resume tomorrow morning
7 at 9.00.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of
10 August, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.