1 Wednesday, 2 September 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Please sit down.
7 I'd remind you that the affirmation you made to tell the truth
8 still applies.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
10 JUDGE PARKER: And Mr. Djurdjic is continuing.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 WITNESS: MICHAEL PHILLIPS [Resumed]
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir, Colonel.
15 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yesterday we were working with
16 Exhibit P835, so could we please have it on the screens.
17 Could we have item 5 of the English version, or rather, Roman I,
18 subparagraph 5, that's on the first page.
19 Q. Colonel, please take a look at subparagraph 5 of this agreement.
20 Tell us, were you aware of this provision when you arrived at your post?
21 A. I was, yes.
22 Q. You will agree with me then that until the KVM was established,
23 KDOM was supposed to act in place of the verification mission, and then
24 the verification mission would take it over once it was up and running;
1 A. What I knew about KDOM and its activities was that I was informed
2 that we would at some point absorb the KDOM into KVM, and that was as to
3 the extent of my knowledge with regard to what KDOM's purpose was. I
4 didn't what they did in the field. I didn't know who all their team was,
5 how many they were.
6 Q. That wasn't really what my question was aiming at. All I was
7 asking was that this transition period, so before the KVM was
8 established, the KDOM was supposed to act in their place according to
9 this agreement, and as we know this agreement was signed on the
10 16th of October, 1998.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have
12 Roman numeral II, that's the next page of the English version.
13 Q. Please take a look at subparagraph 1 of Roman II, Colonel.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Colonel, this subparagraph 1 stipulates that your basic task is
16 to actually verify whether there's compliance with Resolution 1199, but
17 this last sentence, "these reports will also be provided to the
18 authorities of the FRY," could you tell me please how did you go about
19 this relating to this particular aspect?
20 A. I do not recall how those reports found their way to the
21 Government of the FRY, I just don't recall how that happened.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you have occasion to see a single report that was
23 sent by KVM to the FRY in the period while you were in Kosovo in the
24 course of 1998 and 1999, and have you had occasion to see it in -- during
25 any of the proceedings where you testified here before this Court?
1 A. I just don't recall. I don't remember.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that KVM then did not comply with its
3 obligation arising from this subparagraph 1 of item 2 and did not provide
4 reports to the authorities of the FRY?
5 A. I can't answer that or agree with you on that because I don't
6 know if the mission provided those reports, either some, all, or sporadic
7 reports to the government. I just don't know.
8 Q. Do you remember whether you reported to OSCE and the
9 Security Council, in other words, the Permanent Council of the OSCE and
10 the Security Council?
11 A. I am aware of that, we did report noncompliance issues to the
12 Permanent Council, yes.
13 Q. Who did?
14 A. Ambassador Walker typically would do that when he would address
15 the Permanent Council periodically verbally, and then there were also
16 reports that were sent down, I believe they went to Mr. Krasnai in the
17 Permanent Council of the OSCE in Vienna
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please scroll up the
20 English version to see item 3 of this agreement.
21 Q. Would you agree with me, Colonel, that this item, Roman III,
22 provides for the special mandates for the KVM, and under 1 we see that
23 there should be verifications whether cease-fire is being complied with.
24 That is its main function.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we scroll down the English
1 version so we can see the subparagraph 1 of Roman III. From what I can
2 see on the screens right now, the Colonel cannot really see the entire
4 Yes, so this is where it starts and now, please, let's have the
5 next page.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that this is a special mandate, a
7 verification whether there's compliance with cease-fire agreements?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Please now take a look at subparagraph 2. Am I correct, Colonel,
10 that the FRY had the obligation to inform on the movement of its forces
11 in the course of the previous week to inform these KVM headquarters?
12 A. That was our understanding. That was the intent, yes.
13 Q. In other words, this relates to the preceding week, and it is
14 supposed to inform on the movements and where they were. Did you receive
15 these reports on the preceding week movements?
16 A. Not always, no, sir.
17 Q. Did you seek information from the Vienna Secretariat? Did they
18 receive reports from the FRY authorities relating to the compliance with
19 the agreement which were sent to the Vienna Secretariat?
20 A. I can't speak or have knowledge of what the Secretariat in Vienna
21 received or didn't receive. I don't have any insight on that.
22 Q. Are you aware that the KVM headquarters received daily reports
23 from the MUP -- from the Pristina MUP staff on all events from the
24 previous day?
25 A. I'm aware that KVM headquarters received some reports. Those
1 reports were not always accurate. For example, can I -- may I elaborate
2 a bit on that, Your Honour?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: We would get information that there would be a MUP
5 movement at 9.00, and in fact the movement took place at 6.30. So the
6 timing and the coordination was not always accurate, and we had a
7 terrible time linking our KVM up with the MUP. And the MUP would always
8 give us a reason why they had to depart earlier or later, but it
9 prohibited us from either accompanying them or following them and
10 sometimes we would arrive in the village even after the fact and they'd
11 already departed. So the reporting that you refer to here was not always
12 accurate, and I could also tell you that it was not a regular occurrence,
13 it didn't happen as a matter of routine.
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Well, first of all, Colonel, you're talking about daily reports
16 or daily reporting that is not really stipulated by this agreement in
17 subparagraph 2. What we've seen in this subparagraph 2 is that the
18 reports were supposed to be weekly for the preceding week, but here it
19 says that the director of the verification mission and the staff may be
20 invited to accompany or escort the police within Kosovo. So the
21 headquarters director or head was supposed to ask for this under
22 subparagraph 2 of this agreement.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. But what you've just said a few moments ago, perhaps you received
25 with some delay on the same day that there would be police movements; in
1 other words, much earlier than the week -- dead-line of a week that is
2 provided for by this subparagraph 2. Would you agree with me?
3 A. Okay, I can agree that there was a delay on receiving the
4 movements of the MUP or even the VJ, but I would tell you that often what
5 we did receive wasn't accurate.
6 Q. And how did you verify the accuracy of the information provided?
7 Did you verify this by receiving information from some Albanian from the
8 field and then you compared it to the report or did you do it in some
9 other way?
10 A. No, when we did get the reports from our MUP liaison officer who
11 was working with the MUP, often the KVM mission would go to a village
12 that we were -- had understanding that the MUP was going to visit, and
13 either they didn't arrive or they went to a different village. On
14 occasion, the reports would be accurate and the coordination would be
15 good and the KVM would meet up with the MUP as established, but it was
16 not something that we could rely on in all cases.
17 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Would you take a look at subparagraph 3 now,
19 Would you agree with me that MUP on the basis of subparagraph 3
20 was entitled to set up check-points, traffic check-points, and
21 check-points in order to prevent crime?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Only if those check-points were set up for some other
24 purpose did they have the responsibility to inform the KVM, or rather,
25 the KVM was entitled to ask for an explanation; is that what this
1 subparagraph provides for?
2 A. I did not write this document. I can assume that that was the
3 intent of that particular paragraph.
4 Q. Thank you. Would you now take a look at subparagraph 4.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Colonel, sir, am I correct in saying that the verification
7 mission did not have the right to control the activities of the border
8 control units of the FRY in the swath of land 5 kilometres from the
9 border at the time when this agreement was reached under this
10 subparagraph 4?
11 A. I would agree that the KVM did not have the authority to control
12 that border area.
13 Q. Thank you, Colonel. But at the request of the verification
14 mission and approval from the border unit, the KVM could also visit those
15 areas; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that there were
18 misunderstandings where verifiers wanted to go and verify or actually
19 inspect border units without submitting previous requests to that effect?
20 A. There were many misunderstandings and complications at the border
21 area for transit of our vehicles, but I'm not sure and I don't recall
22 those misunderstandings, why they resulted, or whether or not the KVM
23 mission that was responsible for that particular job had sent requests to
24 the FRY for access at the border areas. I just don't recall.
25 Q. Colonel, sir, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This
1 paragraph - and all I'm asking about now is the inspections of the border
2 units of Yugoslavia
3 inspections without having previously submitted a request for these
4 inspections, and frequently it was the case that these verifiers would
5 just show up there without having submitted the prior request and then
6 they were denied this request and this is what actually led to
8 A. I have no reason to dispute that.
9 Q. Thank you. Please take a look at subparagraph 5 now. Again this
10 has to do with escorts.
11 Am I correct in saying that the verification mission could submit
12 a request to accompany police units in Kosovo as they performed their
13 normal policing roles or at the invitation of the MUP that they could do
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Have you ever seen -- did you ever see a request from the
18 verification mission, not necessarily from the headquarters but perhaps
19 also from a coordination centre, so did you ever see a request for
20 accompanying police units as they performed their duties?
21 A. I never saw a request, but they typically wouldn't come through
22 my office anyway whether they were formal or informal. We would hear
23 about requests at our staff meeting, that they were submitted, but never
24 saw them.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the next
2 page of the English version, under Roman IV, subparagraph 2.
3 Q. Colonel, sir, would you agree with me that this agreement
4 provides for 2.000 unarmed verifiers?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Tell us, please, what is the basis then -- what is the basis
7 for -- for the procurement of weapons for securing the mission, because
8 as a mission, as a verifying mission, you were not actually allowed to be
9 armed. Would you agree with me that such a request was actually a
10 request to alter the terms of this agreement?
11 A. I think that you're misrepresenting what the original request was
12 of the OSCE for weapons. We requested weapons for body-guards for
13 Ambassador Walker, not for the entire mission, so we were talking only
14 about two or three men that would be armed to provide the security for
15 Ambassador Walker. We were not talking about nor we ever requested that
16 the entire mission be armed.
17 Q. Colonel, sir, I thought you actually read through the entire
18 subparagraph 2. It says:
19 "2.000 unarmed verifiers ..." including the staff
20 "... headquarters and support staff ..."
21 And if the body-guards of Ambassador Walker's are support staff,
22 even they would not be entitled to carrying arms under this subparagraph?
23 A. I don't disagree with that. I will tell you that
24 Ambassador Walker personally asked for personal security based on
25 incidents that we had confronted once we arrived in Kosovo.
1 Q. I absolutely agree, but I'd like to ask you this: I see that you
2 cooperated or worked together mostly with Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Loncar, and
3 other representatives of the cooperation mission. Do you know whether
4 any steps were taken with the presiding officer of the OSCE or its
5 Secretariat to propose to the FRY government to change or amend the
6 agreement of the 16th of October, so as to enable certain members of the
7 KVM to carry arms?
8 A. I don't have any knowledge of what the Secretariat did with that
9 information. We requested to them what the need was for the body-guards
10 to be armed for Ambassador Walker. Whether they went through formal
11 channels with the FRY government I don't know. I know that we levied
12 that request to Mr. Sainovic, and he took that request forward to see if
13 he could assist us in meeting that request.
14 Q. Colonel, would you agree that this agreement in its unchanged
15 form remained valid all the way until the 20th of March, 1999, when you
16 left Kosovo?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Another thing, since I see that this was the topic of
19 much discussion and waste of time, and that is the issue of helicopters.
20 Does this agreement foresee at all that the verification mission have any
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I would just like to put an objection
23 on the record that the commentary about a "waste of time" is
24 inappropriate in the question.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Hannis, but it washes over us. Don't be
2 Carry on, please, Mr. Djurdjic.
3 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question again, sir.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Yes, without the "waste of time" part. Do you agree that the
6 agreement did not foresee for the verification mission to have its own
7 helicopters for medical purposes?
8 A. I would agree.
9 Q. Thank you. I won't waste any time any further. But while we're
10 still on the topic, although we will go through another two documents for
11 which DZ said they were the Bible of the verification mission, but let's
12 skip ahead for the time being. Do you agree with me that you were
13 completely in the dark as to how to perform the operation of verification
14 based on all the documents we have seen?
15 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that comment.
16 Q. What would be your position in terms of applying the documents we
17 just saw? What was your understanding of them?
18 A. Those documents are truly a foundation for what the KVM mission
19 would be based on. Once the mission stood up, the requirements for the
20 safety of our people was a top priority for Ambassador Walker. And the
21 reason that we requested the helicopter, a medical helicopter, from the
22 Swiss was purely for evacuating potential KVM members that were wounded.
23 So I look at this as a foundational document that we would on occasion
24 ask assistance with.
25 Q. Thank you, Colonel. It seems we were speaking at cross-purposes.
1 I may have jumped the gun a bit, but let's go to P387 next and perhaps
2 then I'll rephrase this question and put another one that I had in mind.
3 Colonel, we have a document of the 25th of October, 1998. In the
4 preamble we see the position of the FRY government which was attached to
5 the communique and the military representatives were informed. The basis
6 of this document is actually the communique itself, the press release,
7 hence I'd like to move forward to the next page. Let's have a look at
8 Roman numeral II, sub-items 1, 2, 3, and 4.
9 Colonel, you must have been acquainted with these provisions
10 during your verification mission in Kosovo and Metohija; is that correct?
11 Sorry, I don't mean the data contained therein as such, but the
12 provisions in general.
13 A. I would agree with that, that our mission had this information.
14 Q. I'm not discussing the information strictly speaking, but simply
15 whether you had any general knowledge of this statement and its items.
16 Were you familiar with it in the course of verification?
17 A. I don't recall precisely, but I don't have any reason to dispute
18 it. I mean, it wouldn't make -- it would be logical to me that we would
19 be aware of this document.
20 Q. This is one of the basic documents for the verification, by
21 virtue of which the FRY government undertook certain obligations to
22 reduce the levels of police units in Kosovo to the level as it was in
23 February 1998; also they obliged that they would not use any calibres
24 larger than 12.7 millimetres; and that the army will withdraw all
25 equipment that was introduced into Kosovo after February. Were you
1 familiar with that?
2 A. I can't say that I was familiar with it personally. I didn't --
3 I don't recall this document. I'm sure it was an underpinning and a
4 foundational document for how the mission stood up, but I'm -- I can't
5 give you any specifics about what I knew or didn't know about what I'm
6 reading here.
7 Q. What I read out to you was supposed to be the task of the
8 verification mission, to check whether it was complied with. Let me ask
9 you this: Everything you have been telling us is what you heard from
10 other people because you really did not have a clue what the true task of
11 the verification mission was. Is that correct?
12 A. No, I would disagree with not having a clue of what the mission
14 Q. I apologise, I may have been a bit rough, but given the role you
15 had as the Chief of Staff you simply noted down what others heard and
16 said without going into the essence of the matters involved and the -- to
17 the heart of the issue of verification?
18 A. My role, as I previously testified, as the Chief of Staff was
19 initially to set the mission up, and we did that for about six weeks,
20 until we got into the operational aspects of the mission in December.
21 These documents of verification that you have shown me were in the hands
22 of our operational head of mission director, General DZ, and he was
23 responsible for ensuring that the verification was taking place within
24 the boundaries of the documents that were provided.
25 For me to have detailed knowledge of it, I certainly may have in
1 the early part of the mission, but I don't recall all the documents and
2 the scope of the documents that you provided me and how they were applied
3 in the mission. We were aware of the boundaries, we were aware of the
4 mandates, we were aware of the Holbrooke-Milosevic Agreement, we were
5 aware of the 2.000 verifiers, which I would tell you we never did get
6 into Kosovo for a number of reasons. And we were aware that we also had
7 agreements that we could conduct some no-notice inspections, whether that
8 be in barracks, which I think primarily where that was aimed. I can't
9 speak to the border piece of your earlier questions.
10 Q. Witness, these documents, as I told you already, were qualified
11 by DZ as being the Bible of the KVM. Given your function - and I accept
12 what you said - but were you involved in the verification mission only as
13 the Chief of Staff of General Walker, who noted down what others said; or
14 did you take active participation, being familiar with the contents of
15 the documents and providing assessments on non -- of non-compliance and
16 whether something was or was not part of the agreement? Can you try and
17 answer that because that will determine what my follow-up questions will
19 A. Neither myself nor Ambassador Walker acted in the field as true
20 verifiers; that was left to the operations teams and the RC commanders
21 that managed those regions. Our purpose in going into the field was to
22 visit the RC commanders, look at their situations, visit with the people
23 in the villages, observe the activities of the VJ and MUP activities.
24 The verifications were done by the ops teams and they reported back to
25 the RCs and back to the OSCE headquarters.
1 Q. Colonel, it seems you misunderstand me. I accept everything you
2 have said so far, but I want to ask you this: A decision as to whether
3 there was a non-compliance or not and a decision to report such
4 non-compliance to certain bodies of this OSCE, that decision was made by
5 Mr. Walker and his associates and all of them had to be acquainted with
6 the provisions of the agreement we have been discussing. I'm asking you
7 this: Did you merely take notes during the meetings, noting down what
8 others heard about the events, or did you actively participate in the
9 decision-making process of whether there was or was not a non-compliance
10 issue? That is why I want to know this because that will determine
11 whether I will continue going through these documents with you or not .
12 A. I took the note --
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours -- I'm sorry.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Hannis.
15 MR. HANNIS: -- I would object. I think this has been asked and
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
18 Carry on, please, Mr. Djurdjic.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Colonel, could you please answer.
21 A. I --
22 Q. Did you only keep records of what others said, noting down their
23 opinions, or did you participate in the making of decisions as to whether
24 something amounted to an instance of non-compliance or not?
25 A. I did not participate in making decisions on issues of
1 non-compliance or not.
2 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Yesterday on several occasions you said that
3 the Army of Yugoslavia or the MUP violated or were in breach of the
4 agreement. Were you simply conveying what you heard from others during
5 the meetings with Mr. Walker or was that actually your position?
6 A. Those were the positions of Ambassador Walker and General DZ.
7 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: Did you know under what
8 conditions these agreements, the February agreements, came to being?
9 A. I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I have a question. I'm not sure which
12 February agreements we're talking about. Can we refer the witness to a
13 specific document?
14 JUDGE PARKER: You could help me as well, Mr. Djurdjic. What
15 February agreements?
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] It should have been October
17 Agreements rather than February agreements. So what were the conditions
18 in which these October Agreements came into being in 1998.
19 Q. Let's simplify things. Colonel, we have the agreement on
20 verification, then this agreement, and the Milosevic-Byrnes Agreement of
21 the 25th October. Do you know what the situation was in the background
22 of these agreements in terms of the political situation which resulted in
23 all of them being signed?
24 A. I didn't participate in the writing of any of those documents, so
25 I don't know what the backgrounds were before I came on board with the
2 Q. Were you familiar with the fact that NATO issued an
3 Activation Order to bomb the FRY in October 1998?
4 A. I can't recall whether I was aware of that or not.
5 Q. During your mandate there, did you know that the decision to bomb
6 was stayed, but that there was always a possibility that in case of
7 non-compliance NATO would re-activate that Activation Order to actually
8 bomb the FRY?
9 A. It's really beyond the scope of my knowledge of what NATO would
10 do or wouldn't do. We were there to form a mission. The decisions NATO
11 made were clearly out of my hands. I don't know what was happening in
12 the North Atlantic Council with regard to that decision.
13 Q. What I'm telling you about did not take place within NATO. It
14 was a fact which existed throughout your mission. All reports and
15 controls of yours --
16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I --
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] -- were to the effect to the -- to
18 determine whether the agreement was complied with or not --
19 MR. HANNIS: I would --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. -- excuse me, Mr. Hannis.
21 Mr. Djurdjic, you are there in a position of giving evidence,
22 which we've discussed before. You are not putting to the witness whether
23 something was the situation; you are asserting it was and making that, as
24 I understand it, the basis for asking the witness something further.
25 Now, if you want to establish a foundation from the witness, you will
1 need to get him to tell you what that position was and then proceed from
2 there. And he may tell you he didn't know enough about those things to
3 be able to help you, judging from what he said so far.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Colonel, why was KDOM supposed to perform its mission to carry
6 out verification until the KVM was set up? Are you familiar with that?
7 A. I have no knowledge of what the political reasons were for why
8 KDOM was to establish its key mission, but my feeling and opinion is is
9 that KDOM was to remain in place until the KVM was operational and
10 functioning on its own, at which time we would absorb the KDOM capability
11 into the KVM mission.
12 Q. Thank you. Although you were not acquainted with the October
13 Agreements in detail, but once you became a member of the KVM did you
14 know that there were dead-lines before which the FRY was supposed to meet
15 the obligations undertaken under the October Agreements?
16 A. You know, I don't -- I just don't recall from memory what, if
17 any, dead-lines were required of us. I knew we had reporting dead-lines.
18 I knew we had -- our ops people were going through verification
19 compliance -- non-compliance documents in detail, learning those. But I
20 do not -- I don't have a memory for what you're asking there.
21 Q. I don't know whether you're misunderstanding me or not. I'm not
22 talking about your verification mission. I showed you the agreement.
23 Before the KVM was set up and before it became operational, verification
24 issues were supposed to be carried out by the KDOM. Are you familiar
25 with that?
1 A. I'm not familiar what documents KDOM was operating under, no. I
2 don't know what KDOM's mission was when I got there, and only learned of
3 what it was doing shortly after arrival. What precisely is your question
4 of me?
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we have P835 on the screen,
7 Q. Colonel, sir, on page 1, Roman numeral I, sub-item 5, could you
8 please read out loud.
9 A. "KDOM will act in" --
10 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. We've already looked at
11 this paragraph. I don't know why we need him to read it.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Is there something new you need to put from this
13 paragraph, Mr. Djurdjic?
14 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] That seems to be the question I'm
15 putting that the colonel cannot understand. I wanted to jog his memory.
16 I asked him three times and did not receive an answer. The gist of my
17 question is as follows: Was he familiar with this once he assumed his
18 duties, the thing envisaged by sub-para 5, that is to say that KDOM will
19 act in place of the KVM until it is set up. That is the question and I
20 do not seem to be able to receive an answer to that.
21 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, I thought you had the answer more than
22 once and it is crystal clear, that he did not know anything of the
23 details of the functioning and purpose of KDOM until arrival. Shortly
24 after the arrival he learned of the essence of KDOM and that he learnt
25 that it and understood that it would be absorbed into KVM when KVM was
1 fully operational.
2 Is that a summary of what you've said so far?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
4 JUDGE PARKER: That's his position. You're wanting to ask, I
5 suspect, Mr. Djurdjic: What was the purpose being fulfilled by KDOM
6 which KVM took over, was it the same purpose? I think you're trying to
7 get to why all this verification was occurring, and the problem is this
8 witness may not be the right one. You or your colleague have asked
9 earlier witnesses who may have known more about that, but if I correctly
10 guess what it is that you're aiming toward, that may help you to frame a
11 question or two.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, am I right in saying that KDOM, until KVM became
14 operational, carried out verification?
15 A. I have never read the KDOM execution orders on what it was that
16 they were doing. I never travelled with them on any of their visits. I
17 don't know what KDOM actually did. I don't know if they were to assume
18 the same roles that KVM was about to assume. I don't know if they were
19 just observers. I don't know if they were called verifiers. I don't
20 have an answer for you of what the KDOM mission was.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you. When did the KVM become operational?
22 A. I would have to tell you that KVM became operational the day that
23 Ambassador Walker set foot on the ground, which would have been roughly
24 4 November; however, having said that, we spent four to six weeks just
25 standing up the mission. And we got into the field for the first time in
1 about December of 1998.
2 Q. Thank you. Does this mean that until December 1998 you did not
3 know what was going on in the field?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Are you aware that KDOM up until -- actually handed over its
6 files up until the take-over by the KVM; and if so, do you know where
7 those files are?
8 A. Yeah, I'm unaware of documents that KDOM gave to our KVM mission.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see exhibit -- or
11 rather document D004-4367. Specifically could we see page 23 of the
12 English version.
13 Q. Well, this is your handwriting, I believe, your handwritten
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if we're going to talk about his notes
17 we need to go into private session.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Are you going into their content?
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 8791-8792 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we see D162, Exhibit D162.
11 Q. Colonel, looking at the date here, it would seem to me that you
12 were in the US
14 A. I don't remember precisely, but I did take leave at some point.
15 So no reason to dispute it, I was there.
16 Q. Well, you were for sure, although I see that you don't remember
17 now, but let me try to refresh your memory. I believe you went on leave
18 for New Year's and I believe you returned on the 10th of January, 1999
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Well, I see that you can't recall that, but it doesn't really
21 matter. Just -- I want to ask you this: Are you aware or were you aware
22 of these press releases while you were away from Pristina or maybe did
23 you learn about them later on?
24 A. I don't remember. I mean, it -- you know, what I looked at when
25 I was leave, where I went when I was on leave, I didn't have a
1 BlackBerry, so I wasn't getting any reporting. So I would tell you that
2 while I was on the leave I was unaware of press reporting that was coming
3 out of the OSCE, so I would have more than likely learned about them when
4 I came back.
5 Q. Well, are you aware of this incident that is reported here in
6 this report?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know that at the same time, maybe even on the same day,
9 there was another patrol that was attacked, a MUP patrol that was
10 attacked in Slivovo, near Stimlje, and that a MUP member was killed?
11 A. I am aware that prior to the 15th of January there were a few
12 incidents where MUP police officers were killed or ambushed by KLA, yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Was Mr. Walker away from Pristina at this time, at
14 the time of this incident, and was he maybe in the US?
15 A. I believe he and I were in the US at the same time, yes.
16 Q. And it seems to me that you spent more time working than having
17 leisure time at this time, do you recall, while you were in Washington
18 A. We made several visits, State Department, Congress,
19 Department of Defence, yes.
20 Q. Could you tell me, why did you spend so much time in
21 Washington, DC
22 of the Kosovo Verification Mission
23 A. Are you assuming that I was holding these meetings independently
24 of Ambassador Walker?
25 Q. No, no. What I said was you were actually accompanying
1 Mr. Walker when he went to attend these meetings, so you were with him at
2 the meetings. And what I'm asking is: Why did Mr. Walker as head of the
3 verification mission, why was he attending all these meetings in the
4 US, in Washington, DC
5 A. Okay, I understand your question now. Whenever Ambassador Walker
6 went back to Washington
7 one, that he was coming home. And in doing so they put together a
8 schedule for him that they wanted him to execute while he was in
10 people wanted to know what was happening in Kosovo. So he would brief
11 what he knew at the time and answer their questions.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see Exhibit D161.
14 Q. Do you remember this press release?
15 A. I remember the incident, but I don't remember the press release.
16 Q. Yes, and in relation to that incident do you remember that
17 Colonel Ciaglinski was in Decani when this incident occurred, when fire
18 was opened on a KVM patrol on the 15th of January, 1999?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Do you remember that KVM headquarters, while you were still in
21 the US
22 on a KVM patrol?
23 A. It would have been a logical event for them to do so. We -- it
24 doesn't surprise me that we issued that.
25 Q. Colonel, do you remember that at this time General DZ was
1 actually standing-in for Ambassador Walker and that Mr. Keller was the
2 chief of the staff of the KVM?
3 A. I don't know that Ambassador Keller ever assumed the
4 Chief of Staff role, but I know that General DZ was assume
5 Ambassador Walker's role in his absence, yes.
6 Q. Colonel, I did not say that he was the Chief of Staff,
7 Mr. Keller, but rather that he stood -- was standing in for Mr. Walker
8 while you were in the United States.
9 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I object. I read his question in
10 the transcript. That is what he said. Maybe there was a translation
11 issue, but --
12 JUDGE PARKER: It seems to be a translation issue, Mr. Hannis.
13 The issue seems to be whether you are aware, Colonel, of the
14 activity of Ambassador Keller standing in for Ambassador Walker during
15 Ambassador Walker's absence, if I correctly understand where we've got
17 THE WITNESS: So the -- you're asking me did Ambassador Keller
18 ever assume Ambassador Walker's role or did General DZ ever assume that
19 role? I'm a little confused on what your question for me is.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Well, let me try and simplify the question. While you were away
22 from Pristina over the new year holidays, did Mr. Keller stand in for
23 Mr. Walker as the head of the Pristina headquarters?
24 A. I'm not a hundred per cent certain, but he did on occasion have
25 Mr. Keller perform that role, as did General DZ also would stand in for
1 Ambassador Walker. I'm not sure at that time which one it was. We
2 typically stayed in touch, when we were away, with General DZ.
3 Q. Thank you, Colonel. New, do you remember that Mr. Walker was
4 upset because of the press release of -- by the
5 Kosovo Verification Mission of January 8th, condemning the KLA -- or
6 rather, the press release of the 15th of January, condemning the KLA for
7 the attack on the MUP, on the police, and that there was a phone call
8 where they talked about this being a bit premature. Do you recall that?
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we need some clarification because the
10 press release we were looking at about the 15th appears to be about KLA
11 attacking or wounding KVM officers. And this question talks about a
12 press release regarding attacks on the MUP.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Your question seems to have confused two
14 incidents, one on the 8th and one on the 15th of January, Mr. Djurdjic.
15 Which is it that you're asking about, the first press release?
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I think I've actually
17 confused these two, and I've ended up with the incident of the 21st, but
18 then I also referred to the press release of the 8th of January. And
19 what I was asking is whether the witness remembered that Mr. Walker was
20 angry because of this condemnation, this denouncement in the press
21 release, and that it was premature because it would actually make the
22 work of the KVM more difficult.
23 JUDGE PARKER: This is a question directed to the press release
24 of the 8th of January concerning the wounding of or killing of three MUP
25 officers and the wounding of two more and civilians.
1 THE WITNESS: I'm -- I do not recall the press report in detail,
2 what that was about. But Ambassador Walker, I know, was upset in regards
3 to the KVM verifiers being shot at. He was upset with each event where
4 there was a MUP policeman injured by the KLA, and I remember him saying
5 on several occasions when he would condemn the KLA for the action that
6 this was not helpful for them, to continue this kind of action.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. All right. I think we will return to this later.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe this is the
10 right time for a break.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Now, how are you going for time,
12 Mr. Djurdjic?
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, as I said before, I will
14 comply with that. So whatever time I have left I will try and make my
15 questions a bit briefer and I'm sure that we will complete with this
16 witness questioning today.
17 JUDGE PARKER: That I take it is a revised expectation. Last
18 night we were rather given the expectation that you might finish during
19 this first session, so now you see it taking much longer. Is that right?
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, we were far more efficient
21 yesterday, and I did not expect that we will take so much time today.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Is it that you will finish during the next
24 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best.
25 JUDGE PARKER: We must have our first break now. We will resume
1 at 11.00.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Please be seated.
6 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Could we
8 move into closed session, please.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 8800-8822 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Can the notes be taken from the screen, please.
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you agree that at the time when you visited Racak and its
10 environs, the location was not secured for an on-site investigation?
11 A. Secured by -- by KVM or secured by the MUP? Secured at all?
12 I'm ...
13 Q. There was no MUP in Racak, that is -- that would mean that it
14 would either have to be done by the verifiers or other members of the KVM
15 who were in Racak. Did they secure the scene of crime in your knowledge
16 when you were there?
17 A. I guess if you're asking me were there MUP around, no; was KVM
18 there, yes. We had a number of verifiers that were taking reports of
19 what events had occurred. Whether the site was secured or not as a crime
20 scene, that wasn't in KVM's charter to do that.
21 Q. Thank you. Did you notice the bodies of those killed being moved
22 and that the spent shells, cartridges, were being taken away as
24 A. I'm aware of a couple of families that retrieved their loved ones
25 from where they were killed and moved back into their -- into their homes
1 for the bodies that were up in the ravine, they were -- we were told they
2 were never touched or never moved, that was, they were shot and killed
3 where they lay.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you know that on the 18th of January, 1999, there
5 was an investigative magistrate of the district court in Pristina
6 accompanied by Gil Gilbertson and a Mr. Sullivan who was an OSCE
7 representative -- actually, both of them were?
8 MR. HANNIS: Accompanied where exactly?
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. To accompany the scene of crime team headed by the investigative
11 judge of the district court in Pristina, her name is Danica Marinkovic.
12 A. I do remember Ms. Marinkovic very, very well, and I am aware that
13 the OSCE brought her to the scene.
14 Q. Did you know that the autopsies were also attended by OSCE
15 representatives, Mr. --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Djurdjic please repeat the two names
17 of the OSCE representatives.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. It seems I have to repeat the question. Colonel, did you know
20 that the autopsies were also attended by OSCE representatives
21 Ian Robert Hendrie from England
22 A. I don't remember if we attended those autopsies or not. There's
23 no reason to dispute your claim there.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you know that members of the KLA kidnapped
25 certain representatives of the Democratic League of Kosovo and they
1 actually killed some of them?
2 JUDGE PARKER: Is this on the same day or at some other time?
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I am leaving the topic of Racak, Colonel. This is an unrelated
5 question to that topic.
6 MR. HANNIS: Can we have some indication of when, what year, what
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, in the fall of 1998.
9 THE WITNESS: I was aware that the KLA had committed acts of
10 kidnapping and other violence. I'm not specifically aware of this
11 particular event. They were certainly no saints.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you. You don't recall any activities by Mr. Walker and
14 other members of the verification mission aimed at having those kidnapped
15 by the KLA who were from Mr. Rugova's party released?
16 A. I don't recall the incident. I know we worked -- we worked a VJ
17 release and we worked a KLA release, but I don't recall exactly who the
18 kidnapped were. I know we had Serbian journalists and we had Serbian VJ
19 that had been released. I don't recall the specifics of everyone that
20 was kidnapped.
21 Q. Thank you. Colonel, sir, did you know that the KLA, after the
22 signing of the October Agreements and the withdrawal of the VJ forces,
23 took up positions which it had held before the summer operation?
24 A. Yes. Yes. I'm aware of that.
25 Q. Do you agree that the road between Pristina and Podujevo and then
1 to Prokuplje used as the main vein to supply Kosovo and Metohija for both
2 the civilians and the Army of Yugoslavia?
3 A. Yes, I am aware that the Prokuplje road was a key line of
4 communication and line of transfer.
5 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
6 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think ...
7 JUDGE PARKER: Is that the end of your questions?
8 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I'll finish the sentence. I'll
9 tell you that after the break I wanted to ask Mr. Hannis if he could send
10 me a bit more time and then after that conversation I'll be able to
11 answer your question right after the break.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Hannis, are you in a position to know how long
13 your re-examination might be?
14 MR. HANNIS: I think about 30 minutes, between 20 and 30 minutes,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
17 If we break now, that's the time that is available for you,
18 Mr. Djurdjic. I suggest we continue for another five minutes for you to
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Colonel, sir, the Yugoslav forces in the Podujevo area react to
22 this by securing the area for further supplies and was this simply a
23 reaction on -- to the KLA actions in that period and in that area?
24 A. We were briefed that they were concerned about losing control of
25 that particular strategic point to KLA control. And that briefing that
1 we received was a verbal briefing in Podujevo from a VJ soldier I recall.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the KLA, in addition to side-arms,
3 also had anti-tank weapons?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know that they also had guns that had a range of up to
6 3 to 4
7 A. I was aware that they had weapons that went beyond 7.62
8 millimetres, yes. Precisely the kinds of weapons -- we're going through
9 all this. I knew they had some mortar packs available to them, 7.62; I
10 was aware of -- I never saw them but was aware that there was some
11 anti-tank weapons available to them.
12 Q. Thank you. Since you were able to move around Kosovo, could you
13 tell us, based on your experience, your military experience, what kind of
14 fortifications did the Albanian houses in villages have? What types of
15 walls and gates were there around them?
16 A. In my experience, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary. I
17 stayed in some of those homes. I'm not precisely sure what you're asking
18 here. I mean, for me, it was a regular apartment and a regular home that
19 had a -- typically had a gate to enter.
20 Q. What about the compounds themselves, were they surrounded by high
22 A. When you refer to "compounds," what are you referring to? Are
23 you referring to the normal living and housing areas in Pristina or are
24 you talking about in the Drenica valley? What do you mean by
1 Q. Well, what I said was the village homes, Albanian village homes;
2 in other words, in villages, not in towns and cities. The walls that
3 surrounded these houses, village houses, did you see how high they were
4 and did you see them, the walls?
5 A. When we visited KLA strongholds such as a facility we called the
6 Ice House out of Drenica valley, what I observed in those areas was a
7 fair number of KLA, armed. I don't recall the heights of the walls in
8 general around any of their facility. That's not to say they weren't
9 there, I just didn't -- I just don't remember them. I remember that it
10 didn't seem -- wherever we went, it didn't seem like it was a fortified
11 bunker or position of KLA soldiers. It just seemed like a normal living
12 arrangement, a normal house, from what I can remember.
13 Q. Witness, on the topic of meetings with Milosevic, would you agree
14 with me that you attended more of those meetings than Mr. Walker?
15 A. I attended one meeting without him. I believe that was in
16 December. I attended one in November.
17 Q. Would you take my word for it that Mr. Walker only mentions one
18 meeting toward the end of October while you were -- when you were not
19 there yet and another meeting with Mr. Milosevic on November 16th; and
20 second, the chronology, the time-line that Mr. Drewienkiewicz drew up,
21 there was only one meeting with Mr. Milosevic where Mr. Walker attended,
22 jotted down, and that's the same meeting of November 16th. So there is
23 no mention anywhere of any meeting in December, and I couldn't find any
24 such mention in your notes either, and I read them through very
1 A. Right. I attended a meeting with Ambassador Holbrooke and
2 Ambassador Miles that did not include Ambassador Walker. I thought that
3 meeting was on December 15th. I attended a meeting with
4 Ambassador Walker to see Mr. Milosevic in November, and I'm not sure if
5 that was between the 23rd, 4th, or 5th, or on the 16th, but I was with
6 Ambassador Walker on one of those visits.
7 Q. Very well, Colonel. On the 15th of December you attended a
8 meeting with Milosevic, that was the meeting with Mr. Holbrooke. That
9 was on December 15th, 1998. And let me just say one more thing and this
10 is even in your notes. The letter of Mr. Walker's of November 23rd was
11 not actually taken and submitted at this meeting, but it was sent only
12 later on, on the 25th. And let me also remind you that you had a couple
13 of meetings with Mr. Sainovic where you discussed this meeting?
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm sorry, objection. That doesn't
15 sound like a question; that sounds like testimony from Mr. Djurdjic.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Same old problem, Mr. Djurdjic. If you want the
17 witness to agree that the letter was not handed over at the meeting, you
18 need to put that to him and he'll say yes or no. You can't put it to him
19 as a fact.
20 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No. What I'm trying to do is just
21 refresh his memory regarding some of these circumstances, but I can also
22 ask him whether I'm correct or not. I think in the final analysis it
23 comes down to the same thing. So I was just trying to jog his memory
24 because the witness said that this letter was actually handed in to
25 Milosevic at this meeting on the 23rd, but in fact it was on the 24th or
1 the 25th. And I even have your notes here, but I can't find the exact
2 spot to show that this letter was actually handed in on the 25th well,
3 never mind. Just tell us, Witness, do you remember this or not?
4 A. I remember the letter. My memory serves me that it very well may
5 have been that we gave that letter up through embassy channels and it
6 went through officially and Ambassador Walker carried his own copy of the
7 letter. My recollection is is that he gave him that letter and discussed
8 that letter. It's possible that I could be wrong, but I know that we
9 talked about that letter in there and I remember Ambassador Walker saying
10 it was going to be the purpose of his visit.
11 Q. Thank you, Colonel, for answering my questions.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours for
13 allowing me additional time for my cross-examination.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.
15 We need to have a break now with those tapes, Mr. Hannis, but
16 what we will do is resume at ten minutes past and hope you'll be able to
17 finish in the 20 minutes, which was the lower end of your estimate.
18 MR. HANNIS: I'll do my very best, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
20 We resume at ten minutes past.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.42 p.m.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- On resuming at 1.11 p.m.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
25 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I will be very brief,
1 Your Honours, and this has to do with the exhibits, or rather, the
2 documents that we propose to be admitted into evidence, D004-4172 and
3 D004-4175, they should be admitted into evidence without a stamp, and all
4 the other documents that were on the list should be admitted under seal.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if that's the agreement of counsel they will
7 be admitted and exhibit numbers will be assigned and you'll be informed
8 by memo.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit.
11 Mr. Hannis.
12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. My first questions are
13 regarding the notebook, so if we could go into private.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 8832-8839 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
12 Q. Just a few more, Colonel. You were asked about what the KVM did
13 in relation to stop weapons smuggling. Did KVM have any authority to
14 deal with weapons being smuggled into Kosovo?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. Who was that a job for in Serbia, if you know?
17 A. I would think that the border guards would be in large part
18 responsible for those weapons that were coming in.
19 Q. Next you were shown yesterday at page 92, line 10, Exhibit D160,
20 which is UN Resolution 1199. I won't pull it up. I'll read. You were
21 shown paragraph 4(a) and Mr. Djurdjic asked you if you would agree that
22 that only called on Yugoslavia
24 "Q. Only in relation to the civilian population and to withdraw
25 security units."
1 I would indicate to you that the document -- the UN Resolution
3 "Cease all action by the security forces affecting the civilian
5 My question is: Those joint VJ and MUP actions that you saw in
6 Kosovo, even though they may have been directed at KLA, in the manner in
7 which they were carried out were those actions affecting the civilian
9 A. They absolutely were. They were, in general, sweep operations.
10 And by "sweep" I mean they included all personnel, all people,
11 population, in the village. It didn't discriminate between the two.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. And the last one I want to ask you about,
13 Exhibit 835, which is the agreement about the KVM mission. Mr. Djurdjic
14 made the point that the primary purpose was to maintain the cease-fire?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And I have a question. In your efforts to verify whether there
17 was compliance with the cease-fire, did KVM requests from Mr. Sainovic
18 and that group that you met with that you be advised in advance when
19 there were going to be movements of MUP or VJ in carrying out some of
20 these anti-terrorist actions?
21 A. Yes, we had asked for advanced notice. At least 24 hours we had
22 asked for.
23 Q. And did Mr. Sainovic agree to do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was that important to you in being able to carry out your job?
1 A. Very much important to us, yes, sir.
2 Q. Because if you were only going to be notified a week after that
3 occurred, how would that help you do any verification?
4 A. It was one of the frustrations of the mission. We just didn't
5 get timely coordination for being able to be in front of some of these
6 operations or accompany these operations.
7 Q. Okay. And if you only got reports a week after they happened,
8 you might as well have been in Hawaii as Pristina?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much for that, Mr. Hannis.
13 You'll be pleased to know that that's the end of the run.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We would like to thank you for coming once again,
16 for the assistance you have been able to give. You are free to return to
17 your normal activities. The Court Officer will show you out. We would
18 thank those who have assisted you in your time here.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE PARKER: We are at the point of an adjournment for some two
24 weeks. We hope in that time, A, Mr. Hannis, the Prosecution will be able
25 not only to review its case and its position to be sure and have clearly
1 in its mind what else needs to be done so that there is no further hiccup
2 in the presentation of the Prosecution case.
3 MR. HANNIS: I'll convey that to the team, Your Honour, and we'll
4 make our best efforts.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good. And efforts are made to ensure the
6 witnesses are here. In the last couple of weeks we've been slipping
7 fairly badly on performance and losing time. We would hope that can be
8 behind us now and things will move along.
9 While this break will be of immediate assistance to the
10 Prosecution, it's also one that should assist the Defence a great deal in
11 collecting your thoughts and finalising your preparation with a view to
12 the steps that need to be taken when the Prosecution case finishes, and
13 if necessary to -- looking ahead to the preparation and presentation of
14 the Defence case. As we have indicated that should that be the course
15 taken, it will -- should not be expected that there'll be a long break
16 between the end of the Prosecution case and the start of the Defence
17 case. We want to keep the trial moving, so we would encourage Defence
18 counsel to be giving thought ahead during this fortnight's break.
19 With those words of encouragement, we hope that the break is of
20 assistance to all parties and we resume again on Tuesday afternoon, the
21 22nd, I think, Courtroom I, I'm told. So we look forward to seeing you
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.36 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of
25 September, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.