1 Tuesday, 29 September 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 -- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I'd remind you, the affirmation you made to tell
9 the truth still applies, and we are finishing the questioning of
10 Mr. Stamp.
11 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours, and good
13 WITNESS: ZIVKO TRAJKOVIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Trajkovic.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. When we broke off last, you had told us what you had been told
19 about the burial of the bodies in Batajnica by one of your officers who
20 had been stationed at Batajnica at the time. When you heard this, that
21 is, when you discovered what was happening at your base or the base of
22 one of your units, did you speak to Mr. Djordjevic about it?
23 A. I didn't talk to him about this directly because soon afterwards
24 I returned to the territory of Kosovo
25 Q. Did you speak with him about it at any time thereafter?
1 A. Yes. In connection with this, I talked, and I think that this
2 was immediately upon our return from the territory of Kosovo
3 agreement was signed. But I wish to clarify this. When you asked me
4 yesterday whether in the interviews you have had with ICTY investigators
5 and at the special court in Belgrade
6 omit or suppress anything or leave anything out, specifically what was my
7 suspicion about some of my statements had to do with this case because
8 everything I told you yesterday about the activities of my units in
9 Kosovo and Metohija as well as in other areas fully corresponds with what
10 I stated, and I still stand by that. But there is something missing
11 here, and it's something that I realised much later after having given
12 those statements. So if you can give me the opportunity, maybe I could
13 clarify that now, Your Honours.
14 Q. I don't know if it's relevant to the issues here. Can I just ask
15 you, what you have to say is in respect to what topic?
16 A. It mostly relates to the fact that I was convinced for a long
17 time that within the perimeter of the centre of the SAJ Belgrade in
18 Batajnica, only the bodies brought in from Kosovo and Metohija were
19 buried. It was only much later that I learned that other bodies were
20 also buried there. These were the bodies that were brought there later,
21 bodies from the refrigerator trucks which appeared only later and from
22 Petrovo Selo. And that actually all those bodies were brought to
23 Batajnica and buried there, and that was the reason why something is
24 missing in the statements I have given in connection with this during the
25 last ten years.
1 Q. I'm not sure I follow you. You wish to tell us something about
2 what you were told about the bodies that were buried at Batajnica?
3 A. I wished to say that the information I had about the bodies
4 buried in Batajnica related to the bodies brought from Kosovo and
5 Metohija, and it was so for a long time. And I was not aware of the fact
6 that actually the bodies that showed up sometime later, the bodies from
7 refrigerator trucks from the Danube
8 bodies from Petrovo Selo, from the centre for the PJP training, that
9 these bodies were also buried there.
10 Q. Very well, Mr. Trajkovic. We have heard evidence in this court
11 from people who were involved in transporting and burying the bodies, so
12 perhaps we could get to that aspect of your testimony later. But before
13 I move away from this could I ask you: How did you become aware of
14 the -- or how did you receive the information that bodies from Petrovo
15 Selo and Bajina Basta were also buried at Batajnica?
16 A. It was later that I realised and became aware that in addition to
17 the bodies that had been brought from Kosovo on the first occasion, that
18 a number of these bodies had been buried at Batajnica and that one part
19 was thrown in the refrigerator truck into the Danube, some were thrown
20 into the Perucac lake near Bajina Basta, and another part was buried in
21 Petrovo Selo. So this is the information I had, that some of them were
22 brought directly from Kosovo to Batajnica and that a certain number of
23 other bodies were buried in these other three locations. But it was only
24 later that I learned that after I had become aware of these refrigerator
25 trucks that had appeared in the Danube
1 Bajina Basta, that these bodies were also brought and buried in
2 Batajnica. This is what I realised after I looked over the files, and
3 then I realised the whole situation.
4 Q. Which files are you referring to that informed you about these
6 A. I'm talking about the statements I gave to ICTY investigators in
7 my capacity as a suspect. At the time I became aware of the whole story
8 because you can trust me that nothing was more difficult for me in my
9 life. Even though I had been carrying out the kind of tasks that I had
10 to do, nothing was more difficult for me than the awareness that the
11 bodies that had been brought from Kosovo and Metohija were buried in one
12 of my centres. It was very difficult for me to understand that something
13 like this was possible. It was possible that something like that could
14 have been done, but my first realisation was that these were the bodies
15 or the mortal remains that had been brought directly from Kosovo. What I
16 still am in dilemma about is whether this is done because I could never
17 carry out any specific investigation, and it is not quite clear to me
18 whether these are only the bodies that were brought from Kosovo or
19 whether these were also the bodies that were discovered later in the
20 refrigerator trucks and in other locations and were then brought from
21 these locations to the centre in Batajnica and reburied there.
22 Q. I see. And that is what you wanted to clarify?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thanks. I think we very much understand how difficult it would
25 be for you or for anyone to hear that truck-loads of bodies were being
1 brought to one's base or to territory that one controls for reburial. So
2 when you were told this at the funeral by the man in charge of the base
3 at Batajnica, I think you said you spoke to Mr. Djordjevic about it
4 sometime after you returned from Kosovo, that is, after the withdrawal of
5 the MUP and the VJ from Kosovo in June 1999. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it was more or less so because I think that I could not have
7 talked to him about this through the communication that was normally
8 used, and I noted yesterday that (redacted) told me that this was a
9 state secret and that it was a very serious affair.
10 Q. Mr. Trajkovic, for the remainder of your testimony I'm going to
11 ask you not to refer to (redacted) by name. There are reasons for
12 that. He's a protected witness.
13 MR. STAMP: And I would respectfully ask the Court if what the
14 witness just said and what I just said to him could be redacted from the
15 public --
16 JUDGE PARKER: I think it will be enough if the name (redacted)
17 is removed from -- redacted --
18 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE PARKER: -- as was done last evening in respect of --
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE PARKER: -- the transcript yesterday afternoon late.
22 Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I did not wish to react yesterday
24 because when we mention names we don't know -- that is to say the public
25 does not know who is protected and who is not and what relates to what.
1 But yesterday let me not name any names, but we mentioned the full first
2 and last name of someone who is also a protected witness, so if this is
3 being done, I think we should do the same for the other person as well,
4 and I leave it up to the Chamber to consider this.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
7 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 MR. STAMP:
13 Q. How many times did you speak to Mr. Djordjevic about what you had
14 been told in respect to these truck-loads of bodies being taken to your
16 A. I think that we talked about this two times. The first time was
17 when I had a chance to ask him how come that this was done within the
18 perimeter of our centre in Batajnica, and Mr. Djordjevic replied that
19 this had been the decision of people who were much more important. He
20 said something like, "This was the decision of people who are much more
21 important than both you and me, and don't ask too many questions about
22 this." And more or less I then realised what the head of our centre in
23 Batajnica told me, that this was a state secret, but I also realised that
24 the decision had been taken at a high level.
25 Q. Can you recall the approximate date or month of the first
2 A. It was sometime around the beginning of June 1999, and the next
3 time was after we had retired from the territory of Kosovo
4 Pristina unit together with the SAJ
5 centre in Batajnica. And then we had a conversation about whether it was
6 possible to exhume those bodies and remove them to some other location.
7 And then Mr. Djordjevic told me that I shouldn't be concerned about this
8 and that the time would come for this to be done and that it would be
9 done in one way or another; and that I shouldn't raise this issue
10 anymore; and that when the time was right that I would be informed about
11 how this would be done and what would be done with these bodies. And
12 after that I did not raise the issue again. We were at the centre -- not
13 myself personally, but the commands of both units were staying there.
14 But as for the training, we didn't do any of the training that should
15 have taken place in the part of the base where the bodies were buried
16 until the exhumation became and until the forensic specialists and
17 pathologists did their work. But this is something that is well-known to
18 everyone by now.
19 Q. Did Mr. Djordjevic indicate anything to you about the level of
20 secrecy that was to be applied to this matter?
21 A. To be frank, when I talked to Mr. Djordjevic I had the impression
22 and I thought that these were mortal remains or bodies that had been
23 directly brought from Kosovo and Metohija. However, I realised later on
24 that my conversation with him and the answers I got from him related to
25 the bodies that had been found in the two refrigerator trucks and in
1 Petrovo Selo. Because I remember that on this occasion he told me that
2 when decisions were taken what to do with this new discovery I asked him,
3 "Chief, what was it that happened?" And he replied something like:
4 "What can I tell you? All of my brave generals put their heads into
5 this -- buried their heads into the sand and they left it to me to finish
6 this part of the work."
7 Now, whether this was a decision taken by the minister or in his
8 office or if it had anything to do with a meeting that was held with
9 President Milosevic with clearing up the terrain, I'm not certain about
11 Q. Yes, is that -- sorry, please proceed.
12 A. But it was clear that the decision about this had been taken at a
13 high level. That was highly probable.
14 Q. That was what I was just getting to. You told us that
15 Mr. Djordjevic said the decision had been taken by more important people,
16 and you took that to mean that at a -- the decision was taken at a higher
17 level. Were you told, or did you receive any indication from
18 Mr. Djordjevic as to who took the decision?
19 A. I understood that the decision had been taken with regard to the
20 sanitation and clearing up of the terrain. However, I do know that for
21 this kind of purposes of clearing up the terrain General Ilic was in
22 Kosovo in charge of this kind of operations. And we knew that he had
23 been assigned a team leader of the team that was supposed to clear up the
24 terrain in Kosovo battle-fields. I was under the impression that this
25 meeting was also related to what Mr. Djordjevic told me during our
1 conversation. I may have given a statement in which I quoted him by
2 saying that this had been done at the meeting with Milosevic; however,
3 later on I found out that this was the so-called task number two which
4 involved the relocation of the mortal remains that was subsequently
5 uncovered and their removal to Batajnica. Whether a meeting was -- about
6 that was held with Mr. Milosevic or at the ministerial level, I'm not
7 sure about that. But I am sure that on that occasion Mr. Djordjevic in
8 response to my question about what was going on, he said, "What can I
9 tell you? All my generals ran away and left their duty and left me to do
10 this job." Only later did I realise that he was referring to the removal
11 of the bodies that had been subsequently discovered.
12 Q. Very well. Let's -- if you don't mind, let's take this bit by
13 bit. What I want you to focus on now is just what Mr. Djordjevic said,
14 not what you might have heard or read later on that led you to
15 conclusions. So let's limit ourselves to that for the time being. Did
16 Mr. Djordjevic say anything in respect to any meetings where any relevant
17 decisions were made?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did he say in respect to this meeting or more than one
20 meeting, to these meetings, where that decision was made?
21 A. He said that the decision had been taken at a much higher level
22 than either of us were on, and that I shouldn't be concerned about that,
23 particularly how the decision was taken. In a way, I felt that
24 Mr. Djordjevic wanted to relieve me of this problem and to set my mind at
25 peace until the whole situation is resolved and cleared. So basically
1 what he said was that this decision was taken by people who were much
2 more important than the two of us. This would be more or less the gist
3 of what he said.
4 Q. Did Mr. Djordjevic say anything about who participated in the
5 making of the decision, who were these more important or higher-level
6 persons who participated in the making of this decision?
7 A. When Mr. Djordjevic told me that people more important than
8 either of us were involved, I didn't ask him their identity. I could
9 only assume who they were.
10 Q. I take it from that you mean he did not say anything about the
11 identity of these persons; am I right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you recall about when the second conversation with
14 Mr. Djordjevic occurred? That's the one at the base where the SAJ and
15 the other unit were gathered.
16 A. The second conversation did not take place at the base, but
17 rather at the then-head office of the ministry. I said earlier that
18 after the conflict in Kosovo and Metohija ended, these two units were
19 accommodated and that the ministry was relocated.
20 Q. I'm sorry about that. I had the wrong place. But what I'm just
21 interested in is approximately when. If you can't recall the date, the
22 month and the year would do.
23 A. It was in June 1999.
24 Q. You referred to Mr. Ilic. Can you just remind us what was
25 Mr. Ilic's position in 1999?
1 A. At that time General Ilic held the position of the head of the
2 criminal police investigation administration in the MUP of Serbia.
3 Q. During the conflict, March to June 1999, did you see him in
5 A. At least once. I saw him at least once and perhaps twice.
6 Q. Where did you see him, if you can recall?
7 A. I saw him in Pristina, that's for sure. He was in this
8 provisional staff of MUP for Kosovo and Metohija.
9 Q. When you say he was in the provisional staff, you mean he was --
10 well, what do you mean? Was he located where the staff was set up?
11 A. That's right. That's where the staff was at the time because the
12 building where the Kosovo and Metohija staff was located all had been
13 bombed, and they had to move around quite often.
14 Q. Did you speak with him?
15 A. We just greeted each other, as is the usual practice.
16 Q. From your contact with other senior MUP personnel active in
17 Kosovo at the time, were you able to ascertain or receive information as
18 to what was his role in Kosovo?
19 A. In conversation with my colleagues, I gathered that he was
20 charged with the sanitation and hygiene measures or clearing up in Kosovo
21 and Metohija and that that's why he was stationed there.
22 Q. You said "that's why he was stationed there." Were you able to
23 ascertain from your colleagues how often and for what periods of time he
24 would spend in Kosovo?
25 A. I must admit that I'm not sure whether he was stationed there or
1 to some other nearby location. I can only say that I met him at least
2 once. And believe me, I never thought about how long he would be staying
3 there in order to participate in certain operations.
4 Q. Knowing what you know now in respect to the movement of the
5 bodies and the burial of the bodies, that is, the movement of the bodies
6 from Kosovo and the burial at Batajnica, in your assessment could this
7 operation have taken place without the knowledge of the membership of the
8 Joint Command?
9 A. I don't think so, that is to say I don't think it could have
10 happened without their knowledge.
11 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, could we go into private session just
12 for two questions.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. Did what that person said - and let's not call the name of the
10 person - reflect your attitude in screening persons or screening out
11 persons who had been members of paramilitary units, including those or
12 especially those that were active in Croatia, and ensuring that they were
13 never part of your unit? Was that your attitude at that time?
14 A. Your Honours, I'm afraid I don't understand the question.
15 Q. Very good. I'll rephrase it.
16 Did the evidence of that person, former member of the SAJ that I
17 just read to you, reflect your attitude in respect to paramilitary
18 persons or persons who were members of paramilitary units joining the
20 A. I'm sorry, but this person is not an ex-member. He's still
21 discharging the same duties that he did back then. Therefore, I'm not
22 quite sure that I can answer this question by saying yes or no.
23 Q. No, no, I don't want you to say yes or no. I want you to tell us
24 whether or not what he said correctly reflects your attitude in respect
25 to paramilitary members joining the SAJ. He said you told him that if he
1 had been a member of any paramilitary unit, including any paramilitary
2 unit that is active in Croatia
3 want anybody like that in your unit. Does that correctly reflect your
4 attitude in respect to incorporating paramilitaries into the SAJ?
5 A. Your Honours, the person involved was a member of regular MUP
6 forces in Croatia
7 such interviews with him because with regard to the job that he was doing
8 in Batajnica at the time, he was a simple labourer who were supposed to
9 do a certain job. Whether he mixed me with someone else, probably his
10 own commander, Mr. Simovic or not, I'm not sure. But I definitely never
11 had any such interview about these circumstances with him.
12 Q. Did you have a policy in respect to the incorporation of former
13 members of paramilitaries into the SAJ?
14 A. Under normal circumstances the conditions set -- laid down for
15 membership in the units that I commanded were fully clear; however, in
16 the situation that our country found itself in from the 24th of March
17 until the end of the NATO aggression against our country had changed the
18 entire picture all together with respect to the things that you're asking
19 me about. So maybe we can elaborate on that a little. However, in
20 regular times I can give you precisely which conditions have to be met by
21 applicants who wish to join the units that I was in command of.
22 Q. Very well. I will not pursue that issue any further for the sake
23 of time.
24 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, may it please you, that is the
25 examination-in-chief of this witness.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Stamp.
2 Mr. Djurdjic.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would appreciate a
4 break so that I can consolidate my notes, and hopefully I will be brief
5 and expeditious.
6 JUDGE PARKER: They're lovely words. Let us hope we find them
7 well proved. If it will help, we'll have the first break now,
8 Mr. Djurdjic, rather than at the normal time, and we will resume at 20
9 minutes to 4.00.
10 -- Recess taken at 3.07 p.m.
11 -- On resuming at 3.40 p.m.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Trajkovic. My name is
16 Veljko Djurdjic, member of the Defence team of the accused, Vlastimir
17 Djordjevic. Here with me today is Ms. Marie O'Leary and Mr. Aleksandar
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. I have only a couple of questions in order to clarify some of the
21 answers that you have given today. Earlier today you mentioned a meeting
22 with Mr. Milosevic. Were you by chance present at this meeting with
23 Mr. Milosevic?
24 A. No, I wasn't.
25 Q. Have you ever attended any meeting with President Milosevic?
1 A. Yes, with him but not in his office.
2 Q. When was that meeting?
3 A. In 1991.
4 Q. Thank you. How did you come about the information that this
5 meeting in Milosevic's office took place, the one that you mentioned
7 A. I heard about this meeting with Mr. Milosevic from a gentleman
8 who appeared here as a protected witness, therefore I'm not sure whether
9 I should mention his name or not.
10 Q. Don't say anything before we move to private session, please.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
12 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
21 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you know whether during the war in all of Serbia, including
23 Kosovo and Metohija, there were on-site investigations carried out in all
24 incidents where death was the result whenever such incidents were known?
25 A. Certainly so in Serbia
1 all these on-site investigations, I cannot say with any certainty,
2 especially not for the year 1999. But I believe that if the conditions
3 were met to do that, that it was done in Kosovo as well.
4 Q. Thank you. And while you were there in Kosovo, did you know that
5 representatives of the branch offices of the SUP did that, that they went
6 out onto the scene whenever death occurred?
7 A. Yes, whenever it was possible.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know and did you sign any note about the
9 conversation with the witness that -- whom we mentioned a minute ago and
10 whose name you don't have to mention now?
11 A. No, it was rather a private conversation.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now I would ask to see Exhibit MFI
15 And while we're waiting for the document to appear on the screen,
16 Your Honours, as it has been translated I would ask for it to be admitted
17 into evidence after we have a look at it.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Trajkovic, can you see your name anywhere here on this first
22 A. No.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the second
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see my name on the second
2 page either.
3 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just let me say it's
6 D004-2898 -- correction: 2892, this was the document. And the document
7 that should help us with the identification, and now I wish to propose
8 that it be admitted into evidence.
9 JUDGE PARKER: I'm told it's not yet been uploaded into the
10 electronic system. It may have been translated, but the procedure has
11 not been followed. This is MFI
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE PARKER: We now have the number 2892 of the translation, so
14 we can receive as Exhibit D48 the earlier one that was marked for
15 identification. Thank you.
16 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Trajkovic, you noted a little while ago that you had this
18 conversation with Mr. Djordjevic when you asked him how come that all
19 these bodies ended up at the centre in Batajnica. Am I right that he
20 told you that it was decided at a level much higher than you and him that
21 the bodies be buried there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Am I right that you during the war and until 2001 did
24 not have any knowledge about the transportation of bodies from Kosovo and
25 Metohija into Serbia
1 A. I first learned about the bodies buried at the centre in
2 Batajnica somewhere around April 1999, and I understood that these were
3 bodies brought to Batajnica from Kosovo. So it was not before 2001, but
4 it was in April 1999. That was when I learned about that.
5 Q. And tell me, did you hear this from (redacted)?
6 A. I heard from (redacted) that a great number of bodies had been
7 brought there, and of course, I connected that with the clearing of the
8 terrain in Kosovo. And when he said these were great numbers, I suppose
9 that they couldn't be from any other location or any other area, but that
10 these were the mortal remains of people from Kosovo.
11 Q. Thank you. That was your conclusion; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. STAMP: There is need I think for another redaction.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We've just been discussing that. It's simply said
15 in evidence, but as attention has now been drawn to it I think we better
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Trajkovic, am I right that your opinion that without the
19 knowledge of the Joint Command the bodies could not have been transported
20 from Kosovo and Metohija into Serbia
21 A. As I did not attend the meetings at which this was decided, it's
22 absolutely just my assumption that this was done on the territory of
23 Kosovo and Metohija -- that nothing could be done on the territory of
24 Kosovo and Metohija without the knowledge of the staff in Pristina.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Trajkovic, what was Mr. Djordjevic's attitude
1 when he told you about the burial of these bodies in Batajnica? Can you
2 tell us anything about that?
3 A. Well, I have more or less replied to that, that we did not
4 discuss this at any length. When I asked him why this had been done in
5 Batajnica and how come that they had been buried there, he replied more
6 or less that I shouldn't be concerned about that, that the decision had
7 been taken at a much higher level, and that now I shouldn't be bothered
8 about this too much but that I should focus on the problems relating to
9 my own units.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions, Your
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
14 MR. STAMP: And I have no re-examination, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Trajkovic, you'll be pleased to learn that
16 that concludes the questions that will be asked of you. The Chamber has
17 listened with interest to your evidence, and we would like to thank you
18 for your attendance here and the assistance that you have been able to
19 give. You may of course now return to your normal activities and a court
20 officer will assist you from the courtroom. So thank you indeed.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
24 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, that is the extent of the witnesses we
25 have available for this week. We have one scheduled for next Monday,
1 pending -- well, we expect to have that witness on Monday, but that
2 depends on -- some degree on the health status of that person.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying that you are not yet in a position
4 to know about the attendance of that witness?
5 MR. STAMP: Indeed, Your Honours. Our arrangement was that we
6 would speak with him on -- today or tomorrow - I think it's
7 tomorrow - but we are scheduled to speak with him tomorrow.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It appears to the Chamber important that the
9 witness attend next week or the following Monday if we are to finish the
10 evidence this month for the Prosecution. So we would encourage you to do
11 all that is possible to ensure that that occurs.
12 Now, you have mentioned two other witnesses, one of whom is to be
13 heard commencing Monday, the 26th of October.
14 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Is there anything known more of the third witness
16 at this point?
17 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honour. We are pulling out all the stops,
18 so to speak, to locate that witness. But as I indicated before, we would
19 not seek any additional time for that witness if that witness is not
20 available by that last week of October.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Well, at the moment then we will -- sorry,
22 Mr. Djurdjic.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have something to
24 ask for, and I have a proposition. The Prosecution case is almost
25 finished. We are working very intensively on preparing the Defence case,
1 so I would ask you, if possible, as we shall anyway be working in the
2 week of the 26th October, that if we can have the same -- the next
3 witness in the same week because in the meantime we could be preparing
4 the Defence case. I think this would be efficient and useful, and I
5 think that we would finish both of these witnesses during this week when
6 the Chamber planned to have the completion of the Prosecution case.
7 JUDGE PARKER: The obvious difficulty with that proposition
8 concerns the health of the next witness. Whenever that witness is able
9 to be here, I think we need to ensure that the witness is heard so that
10 we don't find that in two or three weeks' time the witness is again not
11 well enough to attend. I know that will be of inconvenience potentially
12 to you and those preparing the case in Belgrade, but it's going to be I
13 think more important that we ensure that we hear the evidence of that
14 witness whenever he can be here to give it. Now, it may mean that we
15 will have to delay a day or so to enable you to travel to be here, but I
16 think it would be putting at risk the completion of the Prosecution case
17 if we simply adjourned now until the week of the 26th of October. Of
18 course, we might find we've missed the one opportunity of hearing that
20 I'm sorry about that, Mr. Djurdjic. We normally do what we can
21 to accommodate you, but that appears to be a significant issue. So what
22 we must do is adjourn now until next Monday. It is possible that in the
23 meantime we will learn that the witness cannot be here, in which event of
24 course we will advise you or the -- the Prosecution will advise you so
25 that you don't have to travel. Or if you're still here, you then are
1 free then to return to Belgrade
2 next fortnight. Of course it will be important that you be concentrating
3 in this time on the preparation of the Defence case, as you say that you
4 are. But I hope you realise that for the reason indicated we really need
5 to seize the opportunity, if it's available, of hearing the evidence of
6 this witness.
7 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. My hope
8 was just that the witness's health would be better and better, so in that
9 sense I had this proposal. But I absolutely accept any of your
11 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will proceed on that basis, and we
12 expect to hear from you, Mr. Stamp, the moment it is known whether or not
13 the witness will be here next Monday. And if it is that some other date
14 is a date that the witness can be here, it may be that we will have to
15 change the hearing date from next Monday to that other date to fit in
16 with the health of the witness. But the Chamber's preference is to hear
17 the witness as soon as he is available so that we do not miss the
18 opportunity all together of hearing him.
19 And beyond that, we have what will be the last witness for the
20 Prosecution on Monday, the 26th of October.
21 MR. STAMP: Indeed.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Indeed. Thank you.
23 Well, we adjourn now, with a view to resuming on Monday next.
24 -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.07 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of
1 October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.