Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9901

 1                           Thursday, 10 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours and good afternoon.

 7                           WITNESS:  VLASTIMIR DJORDJEVIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:  [Continued]

10        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, good afternoon.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   Were you informed by Mr. Lukic or any senior member of the police

13     administration of the arming of ethnic Serb in reserve police squads

14     during the summer of 1998?

15        A.   Yes, I was aware of that but those were not detachments the

16     reserve police, but reserve police squads.

17        Q.   These were ethnic Serb civilians in villages and settlements who

18     were given weapons ostensibly to depend the village and settlements?

19        A.   Those were members of the reserve police force and of the reserve

20     force in the army who were issued weapons, and they, as part of the

21     reserve police squads, were supposed to protect their villages against

22     terrorist incursions.

23        Q.   There's a difference which has been explained to us in court

24     before between a reserve policeman, a reservist, and a member of these

25     reserve police squads.  The members of the reserve police squads were not

Page 9902

 1     reserve policemen, were they?

 2        A.   They were not policemen, no.

 3        Q.   And were you ever aware that these members of the reserve police

 4     squads were sometimes used in joint MUP/VJ operations?

 5        A.   I was not aware of it.  I'm sure that they were not used for any

 6     joint army and police actions.  The reserve police squads' purview was to

 7     mount a defence.  They could only protect the parts of the villages

 8     inhabited by non-Albanians, or if those villages were purely Serbian in

 9     ethnical terms, they defended and protected those villages, and nothing

10     else.  They never launched any attacks.  They never went to other

11     villages to attack them.  They didn't provide any support to the army or

12     to the police in any anti-terrorist activities.

13        Q.   You did see -- I did show you yesterday, a document, an order by

14     General Pavkovic engaging MUP and VJ forces in which he also engaged

15     civilians to help in a blockade.  You are saying you weren't aware of

16     that aspect of the operation?

17        A.   I was not aware of the armed Serbs, or rather, we are talking

18     about the reserve police squads.  Let us focus on that now.  Reserve

19     police squads were never used to act in concert with the army and the

20     police in the execution of any tasks, as far as I know.

21        Q.   Were armed ethnic Serb civilians who were not members of either

22     the VJ or the police, the MUP, used in any of these operations?

23        A.   I was not aware of that.

24        Q.   Did you discuss the arming of ethnic Serbs with other members of

25     what has been described as the Joint Command?

Page 9903

 1        A.   I think that there is a category where people were armed as part

 2     of the Territorial Defence or the civilian protection, but this was done

 3     by the military structures.  I was not aware of it.  I was not told about

 4     it.  I was more focused on the protection of the villages against

 5     terrorist attacks, and reserve police squads were tasked with that.

 6             So the policy of en block, en masse arming of the Serb civilians

 7     is unfamiliar to me.  Whether it was done in accordance with some

 8     military rules or a decision of the defence minister, I really don't know

 9     the details, and I can't really say anything because I'm not qualified.

10     I know that those civilians were not involved in any offensive operations

11     targeting the terrorists.

12        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, let's save some time.  I'll ask the question

13     again, and I'll just ask you to answer it.  Did you discuss or

14     participate in discussions regarding the arming of ethnic Serb civilians

15     with other members of the so-called Joint Command?  That's the question.

16        A.   No, I didn't discuss it with them at all.

17        Q.   Now, you said that the army was involved in arming Serb -- you

18     said, maybe there was something done under some military rules.  And

19     there's a category of people who were armed, but this was done by the

20     military structure.  Were the reserve police squads commanded by members

21     of the MUP that were ultimately down the chain of command subordinate to

22     you?

23        A.   First of all, let's clear the last question up.  Nobody was

24     subordinate to me.  That's the first thing.  It's the key issue, in fact,

25     to my mind.  Secondly, it is quite likely that some of the active police

Page 9904

 1     officers were in charge of some reserve police squads, that would be a

 2     police officer who was from that village or from a neighbouring village,

 3     and it was his task to provide some kind of a professional support or

 4     assistance to the population and to the reserve police squad to help

 5     defend them against the terrorists.

 6             I can tell you that for a number of years before this period

 7     there was a lot of pressure on the Serb people, the non-Albanian people

 8     in general there.  Two, three, or five years before the events that we

 9     are talking about, we would send four or five police officers to guard a

10     single house surrounded by Albanian houses in a village, and those police

11     officers lived in the same household with the villagers to protect them

12     against the attacks and the pressure exerted by the extremist Albanians

13     in order to ensure their bare survival.

14             So the police provided support in various ways to protect the

15     people that were under pressure of this or that kind.  And at that time

16     when the entire territory of Kosovo, for all intents and purposes, was

17     heavily under the influence of terrorists, it was decided that this would

18     be a good way to protect the villages.  But you have to understand this,

19     this is very clear, to protect the villages, none of these people who had

20     weapons went to other villages to kill Albanians or whatever.  It was

21     their task to remain in their village and defend it, and they never were

22     engaged in any offensive operations whatsoever.

23        Q.   I glean from your answer, Mr. Djordjevic, that you are saying

24     that quite likely a police officer from the village or from a

25     neighbouring village might have provided some kind of professional

Page 9905

 1     support.  Do you not know that these reserve police squads were placed

 2     under the command of the local police station, the chief of a local

 3     police station?

 4        A.   Well, there's confusion here.  They were never placed under

 5     command of any of the local officers, police officers, police stations,

 6     or SUP chiefs.  They were in touch with the police station.  The police

 7     station provided them with radio stations, weapons, so that if there was

 8     an attack, they could call the police station and the police station

 9     could then take measures to protect them against the terrorists.

10             MR. STAMP:  Could we look quickly at document 1052.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  While that is coming up, could I mention that the

12     transcript at page 2, line 1, shows two questions in a row with no answer

13     recorded.  There was an answer.  It may be incorporated into one of the

14     questions, or it may have been missed altogether.  If that could be

15     checked and confirmed when the transcript is being verified.  Thank you.

16             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   The members of the reserve police squads, these villagers, they

18     were not policemen, neither regular policemen nor reserve policemen, that

19     is what you had said before?

20        A.   Yes.  Or rather, some of them were members of the reserve force,

21     but at that time those people were not engaged as the members of the

22     reserve force of the police station, so they were on the list of the

23     reserve force, but at that point in time, they were doing jobs that had

24     nothing to do with the police station work, simply to protect the

25     village.  They did not -- they were not entitled to anything, to DSA, to

Page 9906

 1     salaries as MUP members while they were doing that.  Some of them may

 2     have been on the list of the reserve force, but they were not used in

 3     that capacity.  There was a major difference between the two categories.

 4             MR. STAMP:  I think we have the wrong document before the Court.

 5     I wanted P1052.  And could we move on to page 2.

 6        Q.   This is a dispatch from Major-General Lukic of the

 7     10th of January [sic], 1998, to the commanders of the departments of the

 8     interior for Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, is it not?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And in the second paragraph, he says:

11             "To organise the defence of village with the newly-formed reserve

12     police squads."

13             And next he says:

14             "Carry out combat training of all RPOs.  And for every RPO,

15     create a file which include, among other things, the training plan,

16     communications plan, ammunition renewal plan, staff control plan at a

17     municipal level."

18             Does this document indicate to you -- and also if I could remind

19     you of the testimony of the former SUP chief Cvetic that these RPOs were

20     organised, managed, and controlled by the MUP, by the local police

21     departments?

22        A.   It says here quite clearly what obligations are imposed on the

23     police stations where police squads were to be set up, so the MUP staff

24     here informs the secretariats and the police stations that they should do

25     some things to ensure that the members of the reserve force, or rather,

Page 9907

 1     the reserve police squad, could defend their villages.  And in this

 2     regard, a plan, combat training plan was drafted.  This combat training

 3     plan involved infantry weapons training in order to make sure that the

 4     members of those squads could actually use those weapons.  It also

 5     included various measures to fortify the village, to defend it against

 6     the terrorists.  Also the communications plan in order to ensure that if

 7     the terrorists attack the villages, they could call the police stations

 8     in order for the police stations to be able to assist them in case of a

 9     terrorist attack.  So all those obligations imposed on the police

10     stations by this order, in fact, concern logistics, training, and

11     equipping members of the reserve police squads in order to make sure that

12     they would be able to defend their villages.

13        Q.   The question is, does this document not remind you or indicate to

14     you that these local police stations were responsible for organising,

15     training, and managing these reserve police squads?

16             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

17             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Correction for the transcript:

18     The date should be the 10th of July, 1998, and the transcript reads the

19     10th of January.  Page 6, line 4.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.  There was a question

21     asked, you are waiting on an answer, Mr. Stamp.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Could I get the question

23     again because now I lost the thread.

24             MR. STAMP:

25        Q.   Does the document remind you or indicate to you that the local

Page 9908

 1     OUPs, the local departments of interior were responsible for the

 2     management and organisation of these reserve police squads?

 3        A.   We have two questions here.  The first concerns management, and

 4     the other, organisation.  The police stations were duty-bound to provide

 5     assistance to the reserve police squads to train them so that they would

 6     be able to respond independently to terrorist attacks.  But the police

 7     stations did not exert control over those reserve police squads.

 8        Q.   Very well.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at 1053.  P1053.

10        Q.   This is a document from one commander, Radica Nastic, of the

11     military department of Kosovska Mitrovica, and he speaks of training of

12     the reserve formation of the Ministry of Interior in the villages of --

13     in the municipality of Vucitrn.  Did the VJ co-ordinate with the MUP in

14     the arming and training of these members of the reserve police squads?

15        A.   As far as I know, members of the reserve police squads included

16     some of the members of the reserve force of the Yugoslav army, locals,

17     people who lived in those villages.  So the reserve police squads did not

18     comprise only members of the reserve police force.  Some of the people

19     there in those squads were also part of the Yugoslav army reserve force.

20     I think there were cases where the Yugoslav army provided assistance to

21     the MUP to train the reserve force.  It was always the case because these

22     people were really highly qualified to deal with some topics as part of

23     the training, so I think this was what this is all about.

24        Q.   Do you have any idea how many infantry weapons, or approximately

25     how many infantry weapons were distributed to members of these reserve

Page 9909

 1     police squads in 1998?

 2        A.   Well, I couldn't really give you the figure.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   Probably to all the squad members, or rather, all the squad

 5     members or most of them were issued weapons.  It was possible that each

 6     squad, let's say, was given ten rifles and then they could use it in

 7     shifts.  So I don't know how many pieces; I don't know the figure.

 8        Q.   Wasn't the co-ordination of the arming and training of these

 9     groups by both the VJ and the MUP organised through the Joint Command or

10     organised as a result of decisions made by the so-called Joint Command

11     whose meeting that you attended?

12        A.   I don't know of such a decision being taken, but there is the

13     instruction of the leaders of the MUP staff how the defence of villages

14     should be organised through reserve police squads and the military in

15     accordance with relevant rules and regulations as well as categories

16     applied there probably dealt with their own reservists in different ways.

17             MR. STAMP:  Can we look at P1054.  Is that before -- is that the

18     one before the Court?

19        Q.   This is a report from SUP chief Cvetic on the reserve police

20     squads in this area that he sent to the MUP staff in Pristina -- to the

21     head of the MUP staff in Pristina.  And he said that in the SUP area,

22     this is the first part of the document, 41 reserve police branch station

23     RPOs have been organised with a total of 1.374 members.  He says a total

24     of 1.000 long-barreled weapons have been delivered of which 735 have been

25     distributed.  And he goes on to give a breakdown of the leadership and

Page 9910

 1     the organisation of these reserve police squads which he describes as

 2     reserve police branch stations.

 3             MR. STAMP:  If you move on to page 2 both in B/C/S and English.

 4        Q.   I'm just asking you to look quickly at the document.  And it's

 5     pretty much the same going through.

 6             MR. STAMP:  If you could move to the last page in both B/C/S and

 7     English.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The problem is that you can hear

12     me even without a microphone.

13             Could we first see the second page because it couldn't be seen on

14     the B/C/S version.

15             MR. STAMP:  Could we move to the end of the document, please.

16     Could we move to the end of the document, please.

17        Q.   Signed by Colonel Cvetic as the head of the secretariat --

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] I really don't want to bother

20     you, I'm sorry, but the second page of the document doesn't match the

21     second page of the English version.  If we go back to the second page of

22     the B/C/S version, you can see the Roman numerals II and III, and in the

23     English version you won't find them.  Under II and III, that is, under

24     Zvecan, there is this part with a heading "Zvecan" is missing altogether

25     in the Serbian version so that there are items Roman II and Roman III.

Page 9911

 1     Both versions match here, but under II and III, there is nothing in the

 2     Serbian version.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  What you are missing is on the next page.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Now, yes.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Sorry, Mr. Stamp.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Thanks, Your Honour.

 7             And could we go to the end of the document, please.

 8        Q.   Signed by Mr. Cvetic here in which he indicates the total number

 9     of the weapons that were delivered to these persons.  Does this not

10     indicate to you, Mr. Djordjevic, that the local police were responsible

11     for the management of these local police squads?

12        A.   Well, the notion of management has about a dozen components.  I'm

13     not sure what you mean.  I said that the police secretariat -- some

14     police stations provided help, and they equipped reserve police squads.

15     And here we see that there were also members of the military reserve

16     forces, and these police squads were equipped.  There was training and

17     preparation for those people to be able to use the weapons they were

18     given to defend themselves against terrorists.  But that doesn't mean

19     that the police station manages these squads.

20             But could I ask for the first page to be put back on the screen

21     so that we can see the date when this was drafted.

22             MR. STAMP:

23        Q.   1st of July, 1998.

24        A.   At that time and before, I was in Belgrade, and these were duties

25     performed by the staff.  They were responsible for that.  And even later

Page 9912

 1     during my stay down there and after getting acquainted with these

 2     documents, I can say that I have never seen any of these documents.  They

 3     weren't forwarded to me, and I don't know anything about this.  This

 4     reads that -- or this shows how these squads were established, and it

 5     shows some principles.  But this all took place outside the scope of my

 6     stay at Kosovo, and the staff acted in accordance with instructions and

 7     their obligations.  And they were involved in co-ordination with the

 8     military and equipping the police squad, et cetera, but this is all

 9     outside of my stay there.

10             MR. STAMP:  Let's look at P975.

11        Q.   This is dated the 30th of July, within your stay.

12             This is Major-General Lukic's dispatch to the SUP chief for

13     Kosovska Mitrovica SUP.  30th of July, 1998.  He says:

14             "Please find enclosed extracts from the register of weapons

15     issued by the Army of Yugoslavia to citizens engaged in reserve police

16     stations to defend villages and cities in the municipalities under your

17     secretariat's jurisdiction."

18             And if we look at the next page, you see him give a breakdown of

19     the municipalities for a total of 7.436 in the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP.

20     This one is in the time-frame when you were there, Mr. Djordjevic.  You

21     still maintain that you don't know about this?

22        A.   I didn't say that I knew nothing about it.  I said that I know in

23     principle but I don't know this information.  This is the first time I've

24     seen this breakdown.  You can believe me.  I didn't get the instructions

25     issued by the Chief of Staff to the secretariats in the field, nor did I

Page 9913

 1     know anything about that.  I only knew that reserve police squads were

 2     established, I knew their composition, I knew that they were armed and

 3     that they were preparing to defend themselves against the terrorists.

 4     But this summary and the instructions given by the Chief of Staff to the

 5     secretariats in accordance with the obligations of the Chief of Staff,

 6     well, this is the first time I've seen these instructions and this

 7     report.

 8             We can see what these instructions are like, and it is clearly

 9     outlined who is charged with distributing weapons.  But I didn't decide

10     about this nor did I control the work of the staff in this respect.

11        Q.   You knew about the arming of these reserve police squads,

12     Mr. Djordjevic, from your participation in meetings of the so-called

13     Joint Command; is that so?

14        A.   No, it isn't.  I knew that they were being armed through my

15     contacts with the staff.  And I didn't learn that at staff meetings.

16     There may have been mention of that too, but it was no decision of that

17     staff or that Joint Command, as you call it, to establish reserve police

18     squads.  The reserve police squads, as far as I know, were established

19     based on the decision of the MUP staff, and then all these steps took

20     place through synchronising all activities and their training, equipping,

21     and preparing for defence.  The basic issue is that these police squads

22     were not used for offensive actions, but only to defend their bare lives.

23     I don't know if you can understand that.

24        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you keep going way beyond the questions I ask you

25     and using time unnecessarily in saying things two or three times.

Page 9914

 1             The next question is this - and maybe I should show you a

 2     document when I ask it.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P886.

 4        Q.   That's the document in front of you.  That's the minutes of the

 5     MUP staff of the Joint Command meetings.

 6             MR. STAMP:  We could go to 20th of July, and in English I think

 7     that's page 18.

 8        Q.   Before you look at that, just scroll back to the pages earlier to

 9     satisfy yourself that you attended that meeting, according to these

10     records.  Isn't that correct, you were there?

11        A.   Which date is this?

12        Q.   20th of July, 1998.

13        A.   Well, the first date here is the 22nd of July, that must have

14     been the 22nd of August maybe.  On the 20th of July, 1998, no meetings

15     were held.

16        Q.   Two eight.  28.

17        A.   That's something else.  The interpretation that I received was

18     the 20th.

19        Q.   You were there, weren't you?

20        A.   Yes, I was there.

21             MR. STAMP:  And if you could go to the last page of that day,

22     which is page 18 of the English.

23        Q.   Mr. Andjelkovic is recorded to have said:

24             "Check the training - 52.250 barrels have been issued."

25             Do you know what he was referring to?  What were you discussing?

Page 9915

 1        A.   I don't know what he meant there.  52.000 barrels, I really don't

 2     know what he meant.  Let me see what this is.  I can't find Andjelkovic

 3     here.

 4        Q.   It's the last entry for that day.

 5        A.   Yeah, but the pages are oriented differently.  The 28th --

 6        Q.   Very well --

 7        A.   This must be the first page.

 8        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... it's on the screen.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Could we expand the B/C/S on the screen.

10        Q.   Let's move quickly, Mr. Djordjevic.

11        A.   Well, yes, here, Andjelkovic, number 2.

12        Q.   What were you discussing that that made reference to?

13        A.   I can't read, here, what the minute-taker put down.  There's a

14     breakdown by communities, authorities, distribution, inspection.  I don't

15     know how it was translated.

16        Q.   Very well.  He said "check the training - 52.250 barrels have

17     been issued."  What does that mean?  What were you discussing when he

18     said that?

19        A.   Well, how am I supposed to say what we spoke about?  The one who

20     took these minutes put down what was interesting to him.  And I'm now

21     supposed to interpret -- an inspection is mentioned, then some guy

22     Andjelkovic is supposed to give orders.  I don't really understand this.

23     I don't -- what is noted here isn't clear to me.

24        Q.   Very well.  And if that's your answer, you can just say so, you

25     don't know, without us --

Page 9916

 1        A.   I would like to know, but this is less than precise.  52.250, if

 2     I'm not mistaken, rifles were distributed and some kind of inspection is

 3     taking place.  I really don't know for which needs these rifles were

 4     distributed.  It doesn't -- it can't be inferred based on this, so I

 5     really can't say anything useful, really.

 6        Q.   But you see that, I think, from your answer we can take it that

 7     he was referring to rifles.  That day you were out in the field, that is

 8     a day you were in Malisevo and you missed a MUP staff meeting with the

 9     permission of the minister, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Yes, thank you.

12        A.   I didn't attend the meeting at which the minister was.

13        Q.   Let's look at the minutes of the meeting.

14             MR. STAMP:  It's P688.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here I can see that General Rade

16     attended, it's probably Rade Markovic.  So he also attends this meeting

17     of… what you call the Joint Command.

18             MR. STAMP:

19        Q.   Really I'm not asking you that.  Let's look at P688.  Minutes of

20     the MUP staff meeting of the 20th of July, attended by the minister

21     himself.

22             MR. STAMP:  If we could move to page 3.

23        Q.   Just to get an idea of the attendees.

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. STAMP:  And if we could move to page 7 in English, and I

Page 9917

 1     believe that's the penultimate page in B/C/S.  But let's go to page 7 in

 2     the English, first.

 3        Q.   Do you have before you the record of the intervention of major --

 4     or Captain Pesic.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Well, can you read it?  This is what Captain Pesic reported to

 7     the minister and the other senior members of the MUP present.  He said:

 8             "Weapons have been distributed to 54.683 persons.  The MUP issued

 9     12.170 weapons; the VJ, 34.716; the MUP of the Republic of Serbia brought

10     another 5.070 pieces of weapons to the territory of Kosovo, and they are

11     being issued.  When all of this is finished, about 60.000 persons have

12     been issued weapons."

13             Now, as the chief of the RJB, were you aware that it was that

14     quantity of weapons, infantry weapons, over 50.000, that was distributed

15     to the RPOs in Kosovo?

16        A.   I was not familiar with this figure, but from this report I

17     gather that this is the figure they speak about.  But while I was down

18     there, I didn't know that this number of persons was involved and nor did

19     I know the relative shares given by the MUP and the VJ respectively.

20     The -- I did not know these concrete figures at the time.

21        Q.   But this involved a significant amount of logistic operations,

22     logistics from the headquarters of the ministry, since we see here that

23     weapons are being moved from out of Kosovo into Kosovo to arm these

24     people.  Wouldn't you or shouldn't you be aware of that?

25        A.   Firstly, the weapons are distributed to the organisational units

Page 9918

 1     of the MUP.  So, in a way, it was a regular way of equipping the

 2     secretariat in accordance with the needs reported.  Each of these weapons

 3     is registered so that relevant information is available.  I believe that

 4     this is a regular obligation which was necessary at the time.

 5        Q.   You saw that many of these weapons from a previous document I

 6     showed you included machine-guns.  The evidence of Mr. Cvetic is that

 7     these citizens would keep these guns in their homes.  Were you aware of

 8     that?

 9        A.   I think that some of those people really did take those weapons

10     home, or wherever it was that their security service was set up.

11             MR. STAMP:  If we look at the next page of this document, and I

12     think if you could hold it there, the next page in English.  And I think

13     it remains the same page in B/C/S.  I think it's the same page in B/C/S.

14        Q.   General Lukic also says, reports to the minister:

15             "We are also arming citizens in towns, and plans for defending

16     towns have been drawn up."

17             You see that?  Now, the question is --

18        A.   Yes, I can see it.

19        Q.   Having regard to what is reported here to the minister contained

20     in this document, weren't you aware that these reserve police squads were

21     being managed by the MUP in Kosovo?

22        A.   I have said ten times the term "management" or whatever the term

23     is being used in the interpretation, but MUP and the police station did

24     not manage the reserve police squads.  I've already said that logistics

25     issues, equipping, training, organisation of the defence and so on, but

Page 9919

 1     if you want to say that they were part of the ministry and that the

 2     ministry ordered them to do this or that, well, that was not done.

 3             They had a very specific task, to defend their villages.  The MUP

 4     provided them with assistance, by equipping them, providing them with

 5     communications equipment and some training, but MUP did not manage it,

 6     did not control those squads.  And secondly, Minister Stojiljkovic

 7     himself says here, since I can see that you are reading the data from a

 8     report, Please send this report to the Serbian MUP.

 9             So he asks Captain Pesic to send this report to him, and he is

10     asking him about 250 radio stations, or rather, he is asking Lukic about

11     that.  So I'm just saying you can see what kind of orders the minister is

12     issuing and what kind of information he is asking those who were present

13     at the meeting to give him.

14             MR. STAMP:  Let's look quickly at another document.  D340.

15        Q.   This is a VJ document dated the 2nd of October, 1998.

16             MR. STAMP:  And if we could go to page 4 in the English, and I

17     don't have the B/C/S page, but that is item 3.

18        Q.   We see here at the last bullet point under "experiences gained"

19     we see:

20             "The distribution of weapons to citizens loyal to the FRY has

21     made it possible for large-scale resistance against the terrorists to be

22     organised."

23             I just point out that part of it to you, Mr. Djordjevic, to ask

24     you if you remember that this being a coordinated activity between the

25     MUP and the VJ, it was -- it received it's direction from the

Page 9920

 1     Joint Command?  Do you accept that or disagree?

 2        A.   I disagree, of course.

 3        Q.   Let's look at the Joint Command minutes briefly.

 4             MR. STAMP:  That's P886.  Meeting of the 29th of July, 1998.

 5     29th of July, 1998.  English page 22.

 6        Q.   And I think it's page 22 also in your copy.  Last entry, and

 7     before we discuss that, can you just look at the document and tell us if

 8     you were present at that meeting, if you are recorded as being present at

 9     that meeting?

10        A.   Yes, I was present.

11        Q.   And General Lukic is quoted here as saying that:

12             "Weapons were distributed today in Vitina (1.100)

13     Kosovska Kamenica, training has not been conducted."

14             You see the last entry on that page?

15        A.   29th of July, General Lukic.

16        Q.   Have you found it?

17        A.   In the English version -- well, I can't see what is written

18     there, but if I'm not mistaken, he is talking about 3.000 uniforms for

19     the reserve force, I'm now talking about the English version.  He is not

20     talking about weapons or anything.

21        Q.   I'll read it to you, the last entry for that day on the report,

22     so possibly not General Lukic:

23             "Weapons were distributed today in Vitina (1.100)

24     Kosovska Kamenica, training has not been conducted yet."

25             Were you at that meeting discussing --

Page 9921

 1        A.   Yes, yes, I can see it now.

 2        Q.   -- discussing the distribution of weapons to ethnic Serb

 3     civilians and their training?  Do you remember --

 4        A.   It is correct, this is what is stated in this report.  If

 5     everything that is recorded here is correct, yes, I was present there on

 6     that day.  But now what categories are we talking about here?  Whoever

 7     took the minutes, wrote down whatever he thought was important.  He says,

 8     Today they gave weapons in Vitina 1.100 and in Kosovska Kamenica, and

 9     there is a no other information, whether it was distributed to the army,

10     to the reserve police, to whoever; it really is not stated.  And what was

11     the basis for those weapons being issued?

12        Q.   That's what I asked you.  You were there at this discussion.

13     Those are those notes.  Do you remember, and could you fill us in on what

14     you were talking about in respect to these weapons?  Do you recall?

15        A.   Well, how am I supposed to remember after ten years?  I agree and

16     I accept that this was discussed, but there's no decision here to that

17     effect.  Weapons had been distributed earlier on whatever basis, and this

18     is just a report informing those present that the weapons had been

19     distributed.  And now as for on the basis of what decision, it's not

20     stated here.

21             MR. STAMP:  Let's look at another entry.  Page 55, the meeting

22     for the 20th of August, 1998.  And page 55 in English, page 56, I think,

23     in Serbian.

24        Q.   And firstly, could you confirm for us whether or not you were

25     present at that meeting?

Page 9922

 1        A.   It says here that I was present, yes.

 2        Q.   And we see Mr. Minic speaking.  And the third -- one, two three,

 3     four, the fourth bullet point in this speech --

 4             MR. STAMP:  Perhaps you could expanded the B/C/S copy.

 5        Q.   Says --

 6        A.   Fourth bullet point:

 7             "Engage the Serbs in those villages."

 8             If that's the one you mean?  "Recruit the Serbs"?

 9        Q.   "Recruit the Serbs in those villages (list the villages) and

10     organise a meeting with the village commanders."

11             Again, noted as if this is a command.  Do you recall that

12     discussion at this meeting?

13        A.   Well, if this is the record of the meeting, it might very well

14     be, but I can't remember.  How am I supposed to remember?  But this term,

15     the village commander, it was not used; I'm sure about that.  As to why

16     it was used here, I can't tell you.  It's beyond me.  There was

17     discussion about the situation in the villages, the problems that they

18     encountered, the attacks on the villages, the defence that was mounted.

19     Those issues were discussed.  Information was exchanged.  This was not

20     controversial at all.

21        Q.   Yes, but can I ask you this:  In a situation when there is very

22     high electric ethnic tensions, if you are the chief of police, as the

23     most senior policeman, if you are aware that one ethnicity or members of

24     one ethnicity are being armed with machine-guns, 50.000 plus

25     machine-guns, and other infantry weapons, weren't you interested, at

Page 9923

 1     least, to closely monitor that situation?

 2        A.   Please, on the eve of this period that we're talking about, and

 3     even during that period, 50 per cent of Serbia was controlled, occupied

 4     by the terrorists.  The non-Albanian population was concerned.  They were

 5     afraid for their lives.  They were moving out of this area under the

 6     pressure from the terrorists.  And now we are talking about whether those

 7     Serbs were supposed to defend themselves or not.  I really don't know.

 8        Q.   You know, maybe you didn't understand the question.  I'm not

 9     saying persons shouldn't be defended.  I'm really asking you to address

10     what I consider to be a very worrisome thing about your memory, you don't

11     recall what other people might consider to be important things.

12             Here we have a situation when there is very strong ethnic tension

13     between the Serbian population and the Albanian population.  Your police

14     force is involving -- involved in arming one group to the tune of up to

15     60.000 weapons, light-infantry weapons, but including machine-guns, which

16     these people keep at their homes.  Were you not interested in monitoring

17     this situation very carefully?

18        A.   Well, of course.  The situation was monitored very closely.  As

19     was the situation that resulted in 100.000 pieces of heavy weaponry,

20     machine-guns, and other heavy weaponry crossing into Kosovo from the

21     Albanian territory, that was later used by the terrorists to attack

22     civilians.  So that was the situation.  The Serbs did not take up arms to

23     defend themselves because they wanted to do that, because they were happy

24     to do that, because that was the only way for them to save their lives.

25     This is why it was done.  This is why those people were trained so that

Page 9924

 1     while we were waiting for the regular forces to come in so that they

 2     would be able to defend themselves.

 3             But let me tell you this:  60 citizens had been abducted from

 4     Orahovac.  Those people were worried about their family members.  They

 5     didn't know what was going on.  They wanted somebody to go down there and

 6     to hold a meeting.  I went down there; I had a meeting with the

 7     municipality chief and the police chief and Mr. Matkovic was there.

 8     People were demanding arms.  They said, We want to have arms to defend

 9     ourselves.  I didn't want to allow that.  I said the police and the army

10     would look for your family members, and you cannot be given weapons and

11     do those things on your own.  And now we have a situation that -- where

12     they had to save their lives.  And it is very difficult to find a clever

13     solution.

14        Q.   So did you receive any report on the work or on the engagement of

15     these armed ethnic Serbs and the use of these weapons with which they had

16     been supplied by members of the MUP?

17        A.   I know that the weapons were used only for self-defence, and for

18     no other reason while I was down there.  The weapons were not used for

19     any other purpose.

20        Q.   Did you receive -- I'm just repeating the question.  Did you

21     receive any report in your capacity as chief of police on the use of

22     those weapons that had been distributed to these people?

23        A.   No, I did not receive any reports.

24        Q.   Did you ask for any?

25        A.   In light of my position, did I not receive any reports.

Page 9925

 1        Q.   But in light of your position as chief of the police, did you ask

 2     for any?

 3        A.   Well, you've seen that the minister asked for very specific

 4     reports --

 5        Q.   Did you?

 6        A.   -- from the minutes of that meeting.  I didn't ask for any

 7     reports, because I did not have any knowledge to the effect that there

 8     was any abuse of those weapons.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P1051.

10        Q.   It is a July 1998 document, a Joint Command Kosovo and Metohija

11     document.  Entitled "Instructions for the defence of inhabited places

12     (temporary)."  We move to the first page, or the next page.  It says:

13             "The goal of the instructions is to ensure in accordance with the

14     purpose and capabilities of the police forces defending towns, their

15     acquiring of adequate knowledge and application of standardised positions

16     and procedures in preparing and organising combat operations and unarmed

17     combat and resistance."

18             Were you aware of the circulation of this document in 1998?

19        A.   I was not aware of it.  I don't know whether it's from 1998 at

20     all.  I didn't see the date.  I was not aware of these instructions.

21        Q.   July 1998.  Same time as the meetings that I just showed you were

22     being conducted.

23             MR. STAMP:  If we move to the next page, page 3 in the English.

24     And I think it might be the next page in the B/C/S as well.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the date is crucial here.  Yes,

Page 9926

 1     it is July, but there are 31 days in July.  That's why I'm not familiar

 2     with it.  It may have been issued on the 10th or the 15th of July.  We

 3     don't know the date.

 4             MR. STAMP:

 5        Q.   Under 2, you see that?

 6             "In specific conditions, the forces for the defence of cities and

 7     inhabited areas are the MUP units which unify all the forces in inhabited

 8     areas and organise, lead, and perform combat operations.  They change

 9     their composition depending on the size and significance of the town."

10             So --

11        A.   Well, it says "will exercise b/d;" that's what it is in this

12     item.  I think that the army drafted the instructions because they use

13     this kind of terminology, b/d combat operations.  But it's possible that

14     this was all done in the beginning of July or in mid-July when I was not

15     there at all.  And that's why I am not able to remember this document.

16             The document itself, I know that there was discussion about

17     defence of the towns and villages and that terrorist actions were not

18     carried out in the towns.  There were some indications that there would

19     be some terrorists attacks here or there, but I'm really not aware of

20     this document.  But the way in which this document is drafted indicates

21     that it was drafted by somebody in the army.

22        Q.   It's a Joint Command document, and you testified about how these

23     documents were drafted before.

24             MR. STAMP:  If we could go to page 7 in the English document

25     under item 5.  If you could find item 5 in the B/C/S and page 7 in the

Page 9927

 1     English document.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 5, "Command."  It's a military

 3     term, pure and simple.

 4             MR. STAMP:

 5        Q.   "Command and contrast."  Could you read this first paragraph

 6     aloud, please?

 7        A.   "Command and control is an activity of a staff organising the

 8     defence of a town.  The commander of the unit organising the defence is a

 9     police officer, and he shall exercise command over the engaged forces.

10     The commander shall be responsible for the execution of the tasks that

11     were set."

12             When I read this, I'm completely unfamiliar with this document.

13     And, in fact, I'm not familiar with the system of the defence of a town.

14     You set up the defence of a town and you put a police officer in charge

15     of the defence, well, that's really something I'm not familiar with.

16        Q.   You recall, I showed you another document in which General Lukic

17     himself had ordered setting up of units to be armed for defence of towns.

18     Do you recall that document?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at another Joint Command meeting.

21     P690.

22        Q.   This is one that was shown to you during your

23     examination-in-chief.  The record of a meeting of the MUP staff for the

24     3rd of November, 1998, chaired by General Lukic.  Did you attend this

25     meeting, Mr. Djordjevic?

Page 9928

 1        A.   I don't think so.

 2        Q.   There, in item 1, they discuss some agreements you had signed,

 3     and if we move straightaway to item 8.  This is page 3 of the English

 4     document.  Could you just read that.  You can read it to yourself.

 5        A.   Yes, I've read it.

 6        Q.   He says, and this is -- I remind you, this is a discussion of how

 7     to behave now that there were observers, KVM observers, as a result of

 8     the agreements discussed in paragraph 1 of this document.  He says:

 9             "Make sure that Serbs and members of the RPOs do not misuse

10     weapons, let off guns at weddings, celebrations at Slava, farewell

11     parties, and so on.  Do not carry weapons or show them in public in the

12     presence of the members of the mission."

13             So were you -- before I ask that question, can I just ask you,

14     does that statement, the record of the statement in this official MUP

15     document, indicate to you that these armed ethnic Serbs were under the

16     control of the police in Kosovo?

17        A.   Of course it doesn't show that they were not under their control.

18     Here he warns that those who have weapons, if they misuse them, will be

19     subject to legal action.  So they must not shoot at weddings, Slavas,

20     et cetera.  And it's along these lines that he insists on a legal

21     behaviour.  Here it says:

22             "Insist that Serbs and members of the RPO do not" --

23        Q.   Do not misuse weapons.  But, Mr. Djordjevic, he does not say that

24     they would be subject to legal action.  Certainly not in this paragraph.

25     He is telling them, telling these senior police officers to restrain

Page 9929

 1     these people because the mission, the KVM mission, has arrived.  Isn't

 2     that what he is doing?

 3        A.   That is not correct.  This isn't what this is about at all.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Just a minute, Mr. Djurdjic, there's an answer

 6     being given.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not agree with your

 8     conclusion.  Here, the Chief of Staff warns -- the head of staff is

 9     warning the chiefs of the SUPs of misuse.  He insists that the weapons

10     should not be misused and should not be carried publicly.  I don't know

11     how else to interpret what I can read here.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

13             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] I noticed this for several times,

14     but I didn't want to react.  Parts of the text are not interpreted

15     literally.  And irrespective of the time constraints, I would ask my

16     learned friend Mr. Stamp to quote literally.  This literally says "insist

17     that Serbs and members of the RPO do not misuse weapons, let off guns at

18     wettings, celebrations of Slava, farewell parties, and so on."

19             If we do quote, let us quote accurately and then subsequently

20     elicit an answer.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Carry on, Mr. Stamp.

22             MR. STAMP:  Yes, I think I read that at page 27, lines 21 to 24.

23        Q.   But I'm now going beyond a reading, literally, of this document,

24     Mr. Djordjevic.  I want you to understand that, that I am suggesting to

25     you that what General Lukic is telling these police commanders is that

Page 9930

 1     they should make sure that these armed Serb civilians refrain from using

 2     the weapons in the manner discussed, letting them off at weddings,

 3     celebrations of Slava, farewell parties, and so on, because of the

 4     presence of the mission?

 5        A.   No.  This clearly says, and this is part of the regular jobs of

 6     the police:  police and -- as part of their regular duties, establishes

 7     offences committed by misuse of weapons.  Here he says that the weapons

 8     should not be misused, and he says, apart from that, they should not

 9     carry weapons publicly.  And they shouldn't show their weapons in the

10     presence of the members of the mission.  That's what he says.

11        Q.   And he goes on to say:

12             "Tell them not to state the fact that the Serbs are armed, and to

13     explain this fact if they must, using the excuse that it is only members

14     of the guard who are armed."

15             This is just General Lukic's instructions to the police chiefs.

16     Wasn't he telling the police chiefs that the massive arming of Serb

17     civilians in Kosovo should be concealed from the international observers?

18        A.   He is pointing out here that at the guard points, one piece of

19     weaponry is used; and he also insists, as far as I can tell, in the

20     discharge of their duties, rather than individuals bringing weapons that

21     were distributed to them.  And the fact that Serbs are armed -- this

22     doesn't say that they should conceal this fact from the members of the

23     mission.

24        Q.   No, no, you are reading the document.  I'll ask you the question

25     another way.  Wouldn't you agree with me that this last sentence could be

Page 9931

 1     interpreted to mean that the commanders of the police should ensure that

 2     this massive arming of the Serb civilians is concealed by the --

 3     concealed from the international KVM mission?

 4        A.   The way I read it, the basic task is prevent a misuse of these

 5     weapons and see to it that the weapons are used exclusively for guarding

 6     in the framework of the RPO.  And one piece of weaponry should be used.

 7     And weapons shouldn't be publicly displayed in the presence of the

 8     mission members.  So he is pointing out that a professional conduct is

 9     required with regard to these weapons and that weapons should only be

10     used for exercising guard duty at these places.

11        Q.   And when he says:

12             "Tell them not to state the fact that the Serbs are armed and to

13     explain this fact, if they must, using the excuse that it is only members

14     of the guards that are armed."

15             I suggest to you, Mr. Djordjevic, it is an effort to conceal from

16     the international observers the fact that the police in Kosovo were

17     engaged in a very, very dangerous -- what was known to be a very, very

18     dangerous programme of arming one ethnicity.

19             MR. STAMP:  I am wondering if that's a convenient time,

20     Your Honours?

21                 JUDGE PARKER:  We will have the break now, Mr. Stamp, and

22     resume at 25 minutes past.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

Page 9932

 1             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Could we have a look at

 2     P902 again.  And that is the minutes of the collegium meeting of the

 3     21st of January, 1999.  And go straight to page 16 in the English and

 4     15 in the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   And while it's coming up, can I ask you, Mr. Djordjevic, wasn't

 6     it an obvious fact of which the leadership of the armed force of Serbia

 7     was aware that arming civilians could have very dangerous results?

 8        A.   I don't understand the question.

 9        Q.   Yes.  I apologise.  Do you see -- I can tell you without us

10     having to scroll through this that this is the contribution of the chief

11     of security, the VJ General Dimitrijevic, and do you see where he says in

12     the sixth paragraph of page 15 before you, sixth paragraph from the top,

13     he says:

14             "Bearing in mind the number of people owning or having been

15     distributed weapons, there is a realistic possibility on the Serbian and

16     Montenegrin side of the Serbian population organising itself to offer

17     resistance and of an increasing emergence of radical forces."

18             You see where the general has said that?  Sixth paragraph from

19     the top.

20        A.   Yes, that's what he says here.

21        Q.   And this is January, now, 1999, weren't you aware, just as he is,

22     that the arming, with that type of weapon and that many weapons, of an

23     ethnic group in circumstances where there is strong ethnic tension had

24     many dangers or had, at least, a danger of the group becoming subject to

25     the influence of what he calls "radical forces," and of members of that

Page 9933

 1     group committing crimes on an ethnic basis?

 2        A.   During my stay at Kosovo in 1998, no one member of these armed

 3     groups of citizens committed any crime with the weapons towards a citizen

 4     of other ethnicity.

 5        Q.   How do you know --

 6        A.   General Dimitrijevic's view and assessment -- I was down there in

 7     1998.  I said during my stay down there, no one member of the Serbian

 8     people, thus armed, as we discussed, killed any one ethnic Albanian.  And

 9     on the other side, we had hundreds of people who were killed or kidnapped

10     by the terrorists.  And the general is sitting in his cabinet, and he is

11     thinking about what could happen.  Well, if they had had nuclear weapons,

12     they could have used them against each other, and in accordance with this

13     line of thinking.  It's very easy sitting in your office and thinking,

14     while down there they’d brought in recoilless guns, machine-guns, and

15     mortars, and all sorts of things.

16        Q.   I am merely asking, weren't you aware of the dangers of what you

17     were doing which required that you should closely monitor this situation?

18        A.   Please, I didn’t do that.  And

19     whether or not I was aware of the danger, that is a very general

20     question.

21        Q.   But were you?

22        A.   I don't know how to answer that.  Was I aware of that.  If there

23     are weapons -- I mean, there are nuclear weapons, so there might be a

24     nuclear war.  I had no concrete information showing that the Serb people

25     would self-organise in spite of the existence of strong police and

Page 9934

 1     military units to defend itself against the Albanians.  When people came

 2     to me to ask for weapons so that they could go off themselves and look

 3     for their kidnapped family and friends, I never consented to do that.

 4     And you now want me to comment the way of thinking of

 5     General Dimitrijevic who was sitting in Belgrade at the time.

 6        Q.   Let's move to February, and you were down in Kosovo, in Pristina,

 7     at that time.  Let's look at the minutes of 17th of February.  P85.  You

 8     were shown those minutes by counsel during your examination-in-chief.

 9        A.   I wasn't there at the time.  I was there on that day, so I

10     attended a meeting on that day.

11        Q.   And one of the first things you mentioned when you were shown

12     this document in chief was that you did not know of a staff plans to

13     carry out three mopping-up operations until that meeting, or am I

14     misinterpreting what you are saying?

15        A.   I didn't know of these actions.  I didn't know who was planning

16     what.

17        Q.   This action involves some, what, 5.000 policemen in Kosovo, that

18     was a significant proportion of the policemen in Kosovo.  And your

19     evidence is that you had no awareness of a plan involving 5.000 policemen

20     in Kosovo?

21        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, there is a clear order showing who was duty-bound

22     to plan, to order, or to execute certain tasks in Kosovo when it comes to

23     combat or anti-terrorist activities, but I was not the one.

24        Q.   You didn't know --

25        A.   The one who was charged to do that -- of course I didn't know.

Page 9935

 1        Q.   He said, and this is in the -- at the end.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Maybe we could scroll down a little bit in both

 3     copies so we can see the entirety of the first paragraph.

 4        Q.   "The staff plans, when it is ordered, to carry out three

 5     mopping-up operations in Podujevo, Dragobilje, and Drenica areas, and has

 6     allotted 4.000 policemen, around 70 policemen of the OPG, and around 900

 7     police reservists."

 8             And you also said you had no idea as to what he was referring to

 9     when he said "when it is ordered"?

10        A.   This clearly says the staff planned to execute it "when it is

11     ordered."  I couldn't order the staff anything, nor did I ever issue an

12     order to the staff.

13        Q.   Listen to the question.  Listen to the question, Mr. Djordjevic.

14        A.   I am listening to the question.

15        Q.   Did you know who would order the staff to proceed, to implement,

16     this plan involving some 5.000 policemen?

17        A.   The staff acted in accordance with the orders issued by the

18     minister, and I was not part of that process.  The minister ordered the

19     staff to co-operate with the VJ in the execution of plans of which we

20     have spoken aloud here, worked out by the Pristina Corps to combat the

21     terrorists.  I had no authority over the staff of any kind.  I knew, at a

22     general level, what the duties of the staff were, from that decision, and

23     that's all I knew.

24        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I want us to move quickly.  Is your answer that

25     it was the minister who would order the staff?  Were you aware of that?

Page 9936

 1        A.   The staff was duty-bound, in accordance with the decision of the

 2     minister, to plan activities, command all forces that it had at its

 3     disposal, and it reported to the minister about it.  It was responsible

 4     to the minister.  That's what I know.

 5        Q.   And if we could go back to the RPOs, if you look a little bit

 6     further up in this paragraph, we see him referring to the RPOs.  You see:

 7             "Reserve police stations in nearly all villages inhabited by

 8     Serbs are very active.  The service has increased its activities in

 9     towns."

10             And later on, and this is near the end of the page in English,

11     and I think we should move on to page 2 in B/C/S, he also says:

12             "Meetings have been held with all the RPOs, and they were

13     attended by General Momcilo Stojanovic and

14     Lieutenant-Colonel Blagoje Pesic.  Their work and engagement have been

15     assessed as good, aimed at protecting the people."

16             Could you see that?

17        A.   Yes, I can see that.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

19             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Just about the translation or

20     interpretation actually, the transcript constantly reads reserve police

21     "stations," whereas actually this is about reserve police "squads."  And

22     I believe that Mr. Stamp has also read that.  But the reserve police

23     "station" has somehow made their way to the transcript several times

24     where they really should be reserve police "squad."

25             MR. STAMP:

Page 9937

 1        Q.   That's correct.  It should be reserve police squad,

 2     Mr. Djordjevic.

 3        A.   Yes, police squad.  On the previous page, you said two things

 4     that -- or, rather, two things are stressed.  First, activities in the

 5     framework of the RPOs, that is, reserve police squads; and then there are

 6     the activities of the secretariat.  So I would ask to you return to the

 7     previous page in order to avoid misunderstandings, because you merged

 8     these two things so it can be understood as --

 9        Q.   If we return to the first page, I read a passage near the middle

10     of that paragraph where he said:

11             "RPOs in nearly all the villages inhabited by Serbs are active.

12     The service has increased its activities in towns."

13             And at the bottom of the page in English --

14        A.   There's a period here, please.  These are two distinct things.

15     So there's one sentence reads RPO in nearly all villages inhabited by

16     Serbs are very active.  And the other sentence reads:  The service has

17     increased its activities in towns.  And on the other page, what you say

18     about Momcilo Stojanovic and Pesic as members of a team, this refers to

19     the first part, the intensive activities of the RPOs.  So maybe we should

20     keep that apart and then maybe comment the reserve police squads.

21        Q.   Very well.  We are talking about the RPOs now.  Now, who is --

22     or, who was -- what was the role of Lieutenant-Colonel Pesic, in Kosovo?

23        A.   If I could see the following page in Serbian.  Blagoje Pesic was

24     a staff member.  And, as far as I know, from those meetings, he followed

25     these logistical issues that had to do with the reserve police squads.

Page 9938

 1        Q.   Did you see the or any report that he prepared in respect to the

 2     reserve police squads?

 3        A.   No, I haven't seen any one report.  He drafted those reports for

 4     the staff, and it was the staff that analysed all the activities of the

 5     reserve police squads.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Let us look at P1055.

 7        Q.   Do you remember the last document General Lukic was referring to

 8     Mr. Pesic and Mr. Stojanovic visiting the reserve police squads, and that

 9     was at the meeting on the 17th of February.  This is a document dated the

10     16th of February, the day before, and it's a report on the visit of the

11     meeting with the reserve police commander.  If we look at the end,

12     just -- let's go to the end quickly.  We see that it is indicated that

13     the report was made by Captain Blagoje Pesic.  Not signed, but you see

14     his name there.

15             MR. STAMP:  And now I'd like us to go to page 3 of the document

16     in e-court, both in the English and the B/C/S.

17        Q.   You just told us that Captain Pesic followed the logistical

18     issues involved with the reserve police squads.

19             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at the bottom of the page in

20     English.

21        Q.   And I think it's the third paragraph on your page.  You see it

22     describes the meetings, and he says:

23             "The meetings were held by Major-General Momcilo Stojanovic,

24     deputy minister of the public security department, it is -- and a member

25     of the minister's staff, and Captain Blagoje Pesic, officer in charge of

Page 9939

 1     organisation and functioning of the reserve police squads" -- it should

 2     be "squads," I think; you corrected us -- "in Kosovo."

 3             The police in Kosovo, you would agree with me now,

 4     Mr. Djordjevic, were responsible for the organisation and functioning of

 5     the reserve police squads?  Not just the logistics?

 6        A.   For the umpteenth time I have to respond to this question.  Here

 7     is a report where Captain Pesic, with General Stojanovic, who held all

 8     those meetings, so here is the report that they are drafting.  In this

 9     report, there's not a single case where a crime was committed by an RPO

10     member.  Had there been a single crime, they would have put it there, and

11     the appropriate measures would have been taken against the perpetrator.

12     So I've already told you.

13        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic.

14        A.   Yes, please go ahead.

15        Q.   I'm not yet talking about crimes.  I'm just showing you this

16     document - which you say is created by Major-General Stojanovic and

17     Captain Pesic - showing you what they -- how they are designating

18     Captain Pesic a member of the MUP staff in Kosovo.  And I'm suggesting to

19     you -- asking you that having seen this, do you not agree that the police

20     in Kosovo were responsible for the organisation and functioning of the

21     reserve police squads?

22        A.   My understanding of the role the police here is that it was

23     preparing the reserve police squads for the defence against the

24     terrorists.  And in this sense, the police was duty-bound to equip them

25     with appropriate weapons and communications equipment, to train them, and

Page 9940

 1     to organise their defence, to set it up, the trenches, or whatever was

 2     necessary for them to defend themselves.  And to my mind, that was the

 3     role of the police.  Those were not organisational units of the MUP, in

 4     which case you would have the MUP say to a squad from one village, You

 5     should go to another village and perform a task there.  The task of those

 6     police personnel was to train those people, to enable them to defend

 7     themselves against the terrorists.

 8        Q.   So you don't agree with what you see here in the document, that

 9     Captain Pesic was the officer in charge of organisation and functioning

10     of reserve police stations?  You don't agree with what they have written

11     here?

12        A.   Well, I agree that he was responsible for the logistics aspect,

13     to make sure that those police squads are able to respond to any

14     terrorist acts.  But Blagoje Pesic could not take members of the reserve

15     police squad from one area and transfer them to another area to use them

16     as he saw fit.  Their existence was related only to their village or even

17     part of their village, and their task was simply to defend themselves

18     against the terrorists.

19             MR. STAMP:  Let us look at page 5 in the B/C/S.  Page 7 in

20     English.

21        Q.   Were you informed -- this is a chart with a breakdown of the

22     weaponry involved in this programme.  Were you aware that, by then, some

23     64.000 weapons had been distributed?

24        A.   At this time when this report was drafted, I was in Belgrade.

25     These are the obligations of the staff, and this is what the staff is

Page 9941

 1     working on with its members.  I never received this report the way I see

 2     it here, or indeed in any other form or shape.  So as regards these

 3     issues, I was not really informed about it.  I didn't know that

 4     Momcilo Stojanovic was going down there to hold these meetings together

 5     with Blagoje Pesic and what the agenda was.  Those were not issues within

 6     my purview.

 7        Q.   You did not know.  That is your answer.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Let's get back to P85.  If we could look at the third

 9     page in English, and I think it's the last page in B/C/S.  Sorry, I think

10     it's the penultimate page in Serbian.

11        Q.   At this meeting, which I think you said when you were first asked

12     about it -- well, we saw it earlier, it involved all the leading members

13     of the MUP of Serbia discussing the plans, the forthcoming plans.  You

14     see here one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine bullet

15     points from top -- from the bottom in English, and I think it's the same

16     in B/C/S.  The Minister Stojiljkovic in your presence saying:

17             "Approach and engage volunteers carefully, linking their

18     engagement through the reserve police force when assessed as necessary."

19             We have also heard from SUP chief Cvetic that the incorporation

20     of volunteers into the police force was illegal.  What did the minister

21     mean when he told all of you leading police officers that?

22        A.   I don't know what he meant.  Here we can see what he said, and he

23     said approach and engage volunteers carefully, linking their engagement

24     through the reserve police force when we assess this to be necessary.

25     This is what he said.  And it's his order, or his vision of things in

Page 9942

 1     this respect.

 2        Q.   Doesn't sound like not only an illegal order, but a very, very

 3     dangerous order to implement.  Does it sound that way to you?

 4        A.   The minister is in charge of the use of the police reserve force.

 5     The reserve force of the police could not be engaged or used without an

 6     appropriate decision by the minister.  On the eve of the war, when Serbia

 7     was under tremendous pressure, this is what he said, and this is what is

 8     recorded here.

 9        Q.   Does it sound to you, as expressed, as minuted here, to be an

10     order to do something which is illegal and also dangerous?

11        A.   It was not illegal to use, to engage the reserve force.  The

12     engagement of the reserve force is not illegal.

13        Q.   Was it illegal to engage volunteers into the reserve force?

14     Let's not play games, this is what the minister is saying:

15             "Approach and engage volunteers carefully, linking their

16     engagement through the reserve police force when assessed as necessary."

17             Wasn't that illegal?

18        A.   He spoke about this in very restrictive terms, so at the time

19     when war was imminent.  He did not allow the engagement or the use of

20     volunteers as volunteers.  This is what it says here.  He allowed it only

21     in exceptional circumstances that, acting with care, those people who may

22     want to fight or to be engaged, involved in this, could do so through the

23     reserve police force.  As soon as those persons are admitted to the

24     reserve police force, they are no longer in the status of volunteers, but

25     they become regular police or, rather --

Page 9943

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- reserve police force, and they

 3     are entitled to everything that the reserve police force has, all the

 4     rights.  So the volunteers were not engaged.  They could be engaged in

 5     exceptional circumstances, based on this order of his, and be admitted as

 6     members of the reserve police force and then be engaged.  And this is not

 7     illegal as far as I'm concerned.

 8        Q.   Wasn't it people who volunteered and wanted to fight, as you put

 9     it, these volunteers, weren't there procedures in place for them to be

10     engaged by the VJ, by the army, but police work was something entirely

11     different, and incorporating volunteers was illegal?

12        A.   The police has the right to use its reserve force.  There are

13     thousands of members of the reserve police force.  Now, how the police

14     are going to use an individual, how to register him, admit him as a

15     member of the reserve force, it's a different issue.  The police did not

16     admit volunteers and use them as volunteers as part of some units of that

17     sort, and they were not engaged in any other kind of work.  So first

18     those persons became members of the reserve force, and then they were

19     sent to execute their tasks.

20        Q.   You said, I think, that you issued a follow-up order to the

21     conclusions at this meeting.  Do you recall that?  That you sent an order

22     which --

23        A.   Yes.  It was --

24        Q.   And you were shown that as well.  Let's look at it.

25             MR. STAMP:  P356.

Page 9944

 1        Q.   This is the order you were shown, 18th of February, 1999, your

 2     dispatch.

 3             MR. STAMP:  If we could move to page -- to item 7.

 4        Q.   This is your order based on the minister's instructions about

 5     volunteers.  Am I correct?

 6        A.   This is an order to the secretariats, but this order differs from

 7     the order that was presented that way at the minister’s.  So the

 8     secretariats are ordered to step up their operative work and to take

 9     other measures in order to check and register and control the volunteer

10     and paramilitary units and their members.  The essence of controlling all

11     these categories lies in the fact that those units would go to the

12     territory of Kosovo in an uncontrolled manner, and there they would loot

13     and commit other crimes.  In the previous period, we have seen isolated

14     dispatches where orders were issued prohibiting the entry of such units

15     to Kosovo, and this order goes along the same lines.  The purpose is to

16     prevent them from entering Kosovo where they would commit crimes.  So

17     this is what this order is all about.

18        Q.   But this document --

19             MR. STAMP:  If you go back to the front page, the first page.

20        Q.   -- is based on the minister's decisions as to how you should

21     treat these paramilitaries and volunteers.

22        A.   It is correct that this dispatch followed partly from the orders

23     issued at the meeting, but also from the obligations that we had as part

24     of the general preparations for the defence of the country.

25             So the air-strikes and war were imminent, and this dispatch, in

Page 9945

 1     fact, contains the orders to the secretariats to prepare for war.  One of

 2     the items is the one that we've just discussed, item 7, which deals with

 3     the issue of volunteer and paramilitary units, but the essence, what this

 4     is all about, is to exert control over them and to prevent them from

 5     going to Kosovo where they would commit crimes.

 6        Q.   I want you to note, Mr. Djordjevic, that this is

 7     dispatch number 312 of the 18th of February.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Can we look at P702.

 9        Q.   Probably it's a little difficult to read.  This is a dispatch of

10     the minister of the 24th of March, 1999, the eve of the -- of the NATO

11     intervention and also the eve of when most of the crimes charged in this

12     indictment, in the indictment here, were committed.

13             If you read the first paragraph, and you will see that it's sent

14     to almost all the important police in the country.  This is, all senior

15     police in the country.  He says that it is necessary to intensify the

16     enforcement of measures that were ordered as per our dispatch number 312

17     of the 18th of February, 1999, he is referencing to the dispatch you sent

18     which he calls "our dispatch."  You see that?

19        A.   Yes, I can see that.

20        Q.   You see item 5?  It's probably difficult to read.  Item 5,

21     I think, is on the second page of your copy.

22             MR. STAMP:  If it could be brought up into better focus, please.

23        Q.   I think that's legible.  The minister instructs an

24     intensification of your order, which he calls "our order," you shall

25     register all volunteer and paramilitary units and their members and keep

Page 9946

 1     them under control in case you might need to engage them.

 2             Come now, Mr. Djordjevic, yourself and the minister were acting

 3     and planning in contemplation of using volunteers and paramilitary units

 4     as soon as the NATO intervention began; isn't that true?

 5        A.   That's not correct.  In the dispatch, in my dispatch, it says

 6     clearly that they should be registered and controlled.  But the objective

 7     was not to engage them, to use them.  Here in this dispatch it says "for

 8     their possible engagement."  It is a dispatch that is sent directly from

 9     the minister.  Now, why this was ordered, I don't know.  But what I do

10     know is that not a single volunteer or paramilitary unit on the order of

11     the minister as it is described here did not go to Kosovo.

12        Q.   Well, when it comes to this topic, you seem very, very familiar

13     with what was going on there in Kosovo.  And, you know, so many other

14     topics that I've asked you about, you know nothing about Kosovo.

15             Mr. Djordjevic, this order says "... in case you might need to

16     engage them."  And he is sending this order to the leadership of the

17     police.  Weren't you then aware of a plan to use volunteers and

18     paramilitaries after the NATO intervention began?

19        A.   There was no plan and no one volunteer unit was deployed or used

20     in the area of Kosovo and Metohija as is said here.  That is, not one

21     volunteer or paramilitary unit was used down there.

22        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you must have been receiving reports and being

23     involved in the management of the police and their activities down there

24     for you to say that with such conviction.

25        A.   Sir, that has nothing to do with it.  I wasn't involved in any

Page 9947

 1     plans regarding the plans of the police for Kosovo and Metohija, nor did

 2     I issue any instructions to use any police unit that was deployed to

 3     Kosovo and Metohija.  I never issued instructions to either a commander

 4     or the Chief of Staff or the chief of the SUP, no, sir.

 5        Q.   As a matter of fact, well, let me show you some other documents.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Let's look at P889.

 7        Q.   This is the 16th of February again.  We can probably refer to

 8     that period as a planning phase.  And this is a VJ order.  And please,

 9     sir, if you could note the number -- reference number to the top

10     left-hand corner, it's in handwriting, 455.  The 455 series, and this is

11     number 1.  And it is an order for the destruction or the breaking apart

12     of forces, that is, STS forces in Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo.

13     Let's look at -- firstly, you see -- I think we have to go to another

14     page.

15             MR. STAMP:  Page 4 in the English, and we have to try to work

16     together to find the appropriate page in B/C/S.  Item 2.  Page 3 in

17     B/C/S.  Yes, I think it's here.

18        Q.   It refers to:

19             "In coordinated action of the forces of MUP of the

20     Republic of Serbia, block, break-up, and destroy STS in the general

21     sector of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo.  At the same time, secure

22     the state border with the republic of Albania and Macedonia, prevent the

23     infiltration of the STS by closing off the axes leading from the

24     Republic of Albania and the Republic of Macedonia, and secure military

25     facilities, communications, and control of territory."

Page 9948

 1             You see, two paragraphs down, I don't want to have to read all of

 2     it.  It says:

 3             "Later on, secure the passability of the major roads and full

 4     control of the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.  Engage armed

 5     non-Siptars to secure military facilities and communications and to

 6     defend places with non-Siptar populations."

 7             You see here, Mr. Djordjevic, the plan for the operations involve

 8     the use of the armed Serbs in Kosovo.  Does this remind you of what the

 9     circumstances or what the operations were at the time?  Or may I withdraw

10     that question and put it this way:  Does this remind you that the

11     operations in Kosovo involved the use of armed ethnic Serbs supporting

12     the MUP and the VJ in these operations?

13        A.   Yes, that's what we can read here.  But these documents, which

14     I've now seen for the first time, have nothing to do with me.  I haven't

15     partaken in the drafting of this document, nor do I know who drafted it

16     and under whose instructions.  I suppose that they had orders from their

17     command.  But the way it stands here, I have nothing whatsoever to do

18     with it.

19        Q.   Can I show you another one.  And this one is in reference to the

20     Joint Command.

21             MR. STAMP:  If we look at P1393.

22        Q.   The combat report to the 3rd Army by Major-General Lazarevic, the

23     commander of the Pristina Corps, 25th of April, 1999.  If you look at

24     page 2 of the English and stay on page 1 in Serbian, in item 2.1, the

25     first paragraph of that page in English, and it's item 2.1.  You can see

Page 9949

 1     that:

 2             "Operations of combing the terrain and breaking up the STS

 3     continue in line with the decision of the Joint Command for

 4     Kosovo and Metohija."

 5             And it goes on to describe what is happening further.

 6             The system, the structure, involving the Joint Command

 7     responsible for the -- for coordinating the activities of the VJ and the

 8     MUP in these operations, remained in place during the war when these --

 9     the crimes we are concerned about were committed.  Does this,

10     Mr. Djordjevic, remind you of that?

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

12             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Stamp read a

13     sentence from this document and then gives his conclusions that have

14     nothing to with the document.  Please, take a look at this question.  He

15     started by quoting the first sentence and then what followed was a

16     digression and some conclusions of his, and all that has nothing to do

17     with the document.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Can you rephrase your question, Mr. Stamp.

19             MR. STAMP:  Very well.

20        Q.   The document says, Mr. Djordjevic, that the operations shall

21     continue in line with a decision of the Joint Command.  Does this not

22     remind you that during operations in Kosovo in 1999 when the crimes we

23     are concerned about -- concerned with here were committed, the

24     Joint Command was still in existence?

25        A.   Well, several months before this combat report, which was drafted

Page 9950

 1     in late April, so several months earlier, I had nothing whatsoever to do

 2     with the activities down there or with the plans or combat reports.  How

 3     it came and that somebody used this term "Joint Command" and why they did

 4     so, I cannot know.  Maybe they meant "joint action," and perhaps this

 5     term was coined in a haphazard fashion and then used subsequently.  But

 6     I'm in no way familiar with the existence of such a command down there or

 7     what they're doing -- what they were doing.  At that point in time, my

 8     tasks were altogether different.  Who wrote that and why is for that

 9     person to answer.  And I cannot provide and explanation for it.

10             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P969.

11        Q.   Joint Command order of the 15th of April, 1999.  And take note

12     the number, 455-151.  And if you could go down to item 2, "Tasks of the

13     Pristina Corps":

14             "With reinforcements and the armed non-Siptar population in

15     Kosovo and Metohija, the Pristina Corps shall support MUP forces in

16     breaking up and destroying STS in its zone of responsibility."

17             You, General Djordjevic, you don't know about this is your

18     evidence?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   In preparing for this case, you must have seen dozens of orders

21     from the Joint Command in 1999.  Do you recall seeing them?

22        A.   Yes.  I saw several orders of this kind with such a letterhead

23     and what was done within the Pristina Corps, yes, I did.

24        Q.   If we may move on.  You testified about being in Pristina on the

25     18th of April, 1999, or thereabouts, and General Pavkovic showed you a

Page 9951

 1     document relating to the resubordination of the MUP to the VJ.  You said

 2     you didn't know anything about it and that was something for the

 3     minister.  Do you recall?

 4        A.   Sir, please, I said and -- what I said is recorded in the

 5     transcript.  So at the moment when Pavkovic called General Lukic to come

 6     and see him, I went there and he showed me that paper.  At the moment

 7     when he showed it to me, I read it.  It was one sentence, and I said that

 8     we had no idea about that, that I had come from Belgrade that day.  And I

 9     know about the documents and all that.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

11             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me that

12     this has become the practice on the part of Mr. Stamp to interpret -- to

13     interpret things very freely and falsely.  So whenever he quotes, I would

14     ask him to quote accurately.  He falsely quoted Mr. Djordjevic to have

15     said that he knows nothing about resubordination.  And you all heard what

16     the accused said.  So when my learned friend quotes, I do ask him to

17     quote accurately rather than retell it in such a way.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

19             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, firstly, I wasn't quoting, I was

20     summarising.  And secondly, I --

21             JUDGE PARKER:  The objection is that you do not summarise

22     accurately, worse than that, at times you summarise misleadingly.

23             MR. STAMP:  And looking at the record of what I summarised, I

24     would submit that I summarised accurately.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Attention is particularly drawn to the sentence

Page 9952

 1     that he said he had -- "we have no knowledge -- I beg your pardon.  You

 2     said you did not know anything about it, that being resubordination, and

 3     that was something for the minister.

 4             MR. STAMP:  Well, I said to him General Pavkovic showed you a

 5     document relating to resubordination of the VJ and the MUP.  And you said

 6     you didn't know anything about it.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Please speak into the microphone.

 8             MR. STAMP:  I said General Djordjevic [sic] showed you a document

 9     relating to the resubordination of the MUP and the VJ, and you said you

10     didn't know anything about it, which --

11             JUDGE PARKER:  The issue is, is that a fair summary of the

12     particular passage of evidence.

13             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.  I submit it is.  He said he did

14     not know anything about the document.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  You say "it" meant the document, not

16     resubordination.

17             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, you can see here that there may be

19     some ambiguity in what was said by Mr. Stamp.  What he puts is, I think,

20     an accurate section of the evidence that Mr. Djordjevic said he knew

21     nothing about the document that dealt with resubordination.

22             Now, in the particular way the sentence is expressed, I can see

23     that it could be understood the way you understood it, that is, that he

24     knew nothing about resubordination.  Mr. Stamp says he intended it to

25     mean that he knew nothing about the document that was shown to him.

Page 9953

 1             I think, in those circumstances, it is not the case that

 2     Mr. Stamp is in any way seeking to mislead the witness.  But you will

 3     realise, of course, Mr. Stamp, that in some of these matters which are

 4     quite material, there does need to be care by you so that you are quoting

 5     accurately or fairly, not necessarily precisely the words, but if you are

 6     summarising, that you are doing so fairly.  And there have been times

 7     when you have been very loose in your reference back.  It's of concern to

 8     the Defence.  If you could pay attention to that in future.  Thank you.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  If I

10     may say something more, the accused answered to that question, and he

11     himself said that it was wrong.  Namely with regard to the phrasing of

12     the question.  And that's why I would ask for quotations to be accurate

13     rather than to be put in such a way as to be ambiguous.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Stamp, carry on.

16             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Did you, when you returned to Belgrade, inquire as to what were

18     the reasons for the VJ to be pressing this issue of resubordination?

19        A.   The dispatch of General Ojdanic which I saw at General Pavkovic's

20     office, was something that I informed the minister.  And he said that he

21     would take care of it, probably with Mr. Ojdanic.  And after my -- after

22     this information I gave to the minister, based on what I saw later, there

23     was never an act from the Chief of Staff sent to the minister containing

24     a request for units or organs of the intern of the MUP to be

25     resubordinated.  That's all I know about.

Page 9954

 1        Q.   Well, I was asking whether or not you asked about or discovered

 2     the reasons why the VJ wanted resubordination.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P888.  If we could just go to the

 4     end to see that it is signed, or I could just tell you.

 5        Q.   This is an order, or this is a report by commander of the

 6     3rd Army, Pavkovic, which he sent to the Supreme Command of the

 7     25th of May, 1999.

 8             MR. STAMP:  And if we could go back to the first page in English

 9     and look at paragraph 3.

10        Q.   I'll just read it:  He says.

11             "The security regime in the territory has not taken root in the

12     spirit of the law and on the basis of the proclaimed state of war.  The

13     best example is the operation of joint check-points manned by MUP and the

14     military police units where there are frequent altercations because MUP

15     members condone or openly permit evident criminal activities and plunder

16     committed by their fellow MUP members, as well as civilians, resulting in

17     the misappropriation of a vast number of motor vehicles, technical goods,

18     and other resources from the territory of Kosovo and Metohija."

19             Look at paragraph 4 on the next page:

20             "It has been established beyond doubt, and we have already

21     reported on it in regular combat and other reports, that due to the

22     non-compliance with the resubordination orders, some MUP members and to a

23     considerable extent entire smaller units which operate independently on

24     the ground, are committing serious crimes against the Siptar civilian

25     population in settlements or refugee shelters - murder, rape, plunder,

Page 9955

 1     robbery, aggravated theft, et cetera, and they then purposely attribute

 2     or plan to attribute these crimes to units and individuals of the VJ."

 3             Now, were you aware of these complaints being made by the

 4     leadership of the VJ about the conduct of the MUP in Kosovo?

 5        A.   No such information has ever reached me.  And I would say that on

 6     the 4th of May, we attended a meeting with the president of the SRJ, that

 7     is, a considerable time after the resubordination order and a month

 8     and 40 days after the start of the war, and General Pavkovic had a

 9     briefing, and General Lukic too, and the result of that meeting was a

10     document about good work and good results and no problem existing between

11     the police and the military was mentioned.

12             On the 10th of July when the minister organised a visit of the

13     Chief of General Staff, Mr. Ojdanic, the units of -- we heard that the

14     units of the police and the military, under very difficult conditions,

15     operated jointly to general satisfaction.  So we have the opinion of the

16     Chief of General Staff and the minister that the relations were all right

17     and without any problems, but opposed to that there is this letter by

18     General Pavkovic from roughly the same time who is generally pointing out

19     some things and blaming somebody else for every one of these things.

20             There has never been any written document from the VJ that

21     arrived at the ministry, certainly it never reached me, but I'm sure that

22     it never reached the minister either.

23        Q.   We'll get to the meeting of the 9th of July later on.  You see

24     the last thing that General Pavkovic recommended in this letter?

25        A.   The proposal of measures.

Page 9956

 1        Q.   Right.  "In light of the above said and particularly the

 2     consequences already in evidence which could, however, become much more

 3     important, the Supreme Command should take urgent measures, falling

 4     within its jurisdiction, to resubordinate the units and organs of the MUP

 5     of the Republic of Serbia in the spirit of the constitution and existing

 6     laws and in accordance with the proclaimed state of war, or annul the

 7     order on the resubordination and leave the command and commanding of the

 8     forces of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia in the hands of the

 9     Ministry of the Interior staff of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia for

10     Kosovo through the Joint Command as has so far been the case."

11             Again, General Pavkovic it referring to the existence of the

12     Joint Command as far forward as the 25th of May, 1999?

13        A.   As regards the -- what is contained in the proposal of measures

14     and what he recommends to the Supreme Command by way of some urgent

15     measures, I don't know that as of the time when this letter was

16     purportedly sent on the 25th of May until the end of the war, the

17     Supreme Command never talked to the minister to highlight those problems

18     that General Pavkovic is writing about here.

19             So the issue of reattachment or lack thereof or any other

20     allegations in this letter was never raised.  Now, as to when and why

21     this letter was written, well, also this, what it says, the MUP staff

22     "through the Joint Command," what the author wanted to say is really

23     unclear to me.  He should have expressed himself more clearly, what he

24     meant when he said the Joint Command.

25             Now, if I were to try and get into his mind and to interpret what

Page 9957

 1     he wanted to say, I'm really not in a position to do that.

 2        Q.   Can you remember where you were on the 1st of June, 1999?

 3        A.   Belgrade.

 4        Q.   We'll is it -- we'll get to that shortly.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Is this a convenient time, Your Honour?

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  It is, if you are moving on.  We'll break now and

 7     resume at 6.20.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 549 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

11             MR. STAMP:  Could we go into private session.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9958











11  Pages 9958-9959 redacted. Private session.















Page 9960

 1                           [Open session]

 2        Q.   When was -- sorry, I'm so sorry.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now back in open session.

 4             MR. STAMP:

 5        Q.   When was Mr. Stojiljkovic removed from office by the Assembly?

 6        A.   I think sometime around the 10th of October, 2000.

 7        Q.   And you remained in your position until 2001?

 8        A.   Yes.  But you must note that on the 5th of October, 2000, the

 9     democratic changes occurred and then the government in Serbia was

10     re-organised until the new cabinet was appointed.  There were three

11     co-minsters, and I was the chief of the public security department.  When

12     the new cabinet was established, I was appointed one of the advisors to

13     the minister; Sreten Lukic was appointed the chief of the department.

14        Q.   None of that but for the yes I asked you about.  Please focus on

15     my questions and answer them directly.  I say this because of the time.

16             Incidentally, you told us that you sent a letter to clarify your

17     position to a news outlet.  Can you remember the date when you sent that

18     letter, the month or the year?

19        A.   I really don't recall.  I can't remember this time.  But I think

20     that you can see from your documents when it was sent.

21        Q.   If I tell you that it was in May 2004, would you disagree with

22     me?

23        A.   Yes, I would.

24        Q.   You would disagree or can you --

25        A.   I would agree.

Page 9961

 1        Q.   You said you gave somebody the letter to post for you.  Did you

 2     write on the envelope on the letter your --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you asked the person to post it from Moscow?

 5        A.   Yes.  I addressed a letter, I put it in a larger envelope that

 6     did not have any markings on it, he took it, and then he posted it from

 7     Moscow to the address.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Can we look at P -- sorry, document 05223.  And that

 9     is P1472.

10        Q.   Is this what you wrote on the envelope?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And is that the front of the envelope, the addressee, the editor

13     of the magazine that you sent it to?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And if you look at the back.

16        A.   Yes, that's my handwriting.

17        Q.   Is that the return address that you wrote?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You said at that time you were living in Montenegro?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Were you using your own name where you lived?  That is, did you

22     go by the name Vlastimir Djordjevic at the place in Montenegro where you

23     lived?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Where was it in Montenegro?  What was the address in Montenegro

Page 9962

 1     that you lived at?

 2        A.   Well, I lived in several addresses.  I don't know -- well, I

 3     lived in several addresses.  It was not just one place of residence.  I

 4     moved from one to another.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at 05225.  And that is 1474.

 6        Q.   You have already identified this document as your letter.

 7             MR. STAMP:  Let's look at page 8 of it.

 8        Q.   I think maybe for your purposes you want to start with the

 9     paragraph -- with the last paragraph of page 7, just read that.  And when

10     you are ready, you could move to page 8.

11        A.   What am I supposed to read?  I'm sorry.

12        Q.   The last paragraph of page 7.

13        A.   Minister ordered me it to issue an order to prevent -- yes, he

14     did issue those two orders that envisaged the use of fire-arms to prevent

15     the arrival of citizens to the protest rally.  And later on when several

16     hundred thousand demonstrators gathered there, he issued an order to me

17     to order the liquidation of a bulldozer driver who was breaking through

18     the police cordons.  He issued this order to me, and I, of course,

19     refused to obey.  And then after the demonstrations --

20        Q.   So these are two orders that you refused to obey?  If you look at

21     page 8 now, the top of page 8 of this document.  That's correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   While we are on this document, maybe I should ask one or two

24     things about it.  If you look at page 7 in English and 6 in B/C/S, near

25     to the top of page 7 and just about the middle in B/C/S, you wrote:

Page 9963

 1             "I did not know anything about civilian casualties in Kosovo and

 2     Metohija at the time of the bombing, whether there were any and at which

 3     locations.  Nobody informed me about that, nor was it their duty to

 4     inform me."

 5             I think you admitted here in the course of your testimony that at

 6     least you knew about the victims in Podujevo, so this statement that you

 7     knew nothing about civilian casualties, which you included in your letter

 8     to the Serbian people, is not true, is it?

 9        A.   Well, this was written several years after I had left.  And in

10     the meantime, there were lots of various reports in various newspapers.

11     At that time, I wrote this fully aware of the fact that there were some

12     defects here or some elements that were based on my feeling, I may have

13     exaggerated my role here or there, but there are some inaccuracies.  For

14     instance, at page 3, now that I have had a closer look at it, I see that

15     I said that the anti-terrorist activities started on the 1st of July,

16     whereas they actually started one month later.  So I really, here, am --

17        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I'm asking you about what you said, that you did

18     not know anything about any casualties.  That was a deliberate

19     misrepresentation, was it not?

20        A.   Please, sir, I wrote this replying to articles in the newspapers

21     there.  Here, I'm giving evidence to this Trial Chamber.  And what I am

22     saying here is something that's very clear.  Basically --

23        Q.   So what you said there -- what you said there -- and I just want

24     you to focus on that statement.  What you said there is not true, and you

25     deliberately misrepresented that, isn't that so?

Page 9964

 1        A.   I didn't mention that event for -- I don't know for which reason.

 2     It isn't like I did something and -- but simply I didn't show it here.

 3        Q.   Very well.

 4        A.   But it's important what's said here.

 5        Q.   I'm not going to ask that question again.  I have to move on.

 6     But you haven't answered it.

 7             There's another thing I noticed in this document.

 8             MR. STAMP:  Let me look at page 10 in English.  Sorry, page 11 in

 9     English.  And that is also the last part in B/C/S.

10        Q.   You said you retired on the 3rd of May.  And I think you are

11     telling us here that you were dismissed.  Is that your evidence here,

12     that you were dismissed?

13        A.   I retired.  I wasn't replaced or dismissed.  I retired.

14        Q.   Do you remember telling this Court on two occasions, the first

15     day you testified, that you were dismissed?

16        A.   I have never stated that to this Trial Chamber.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

18             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] We have heard another statement

19     by Mr. Stamp, and I repeat my request to him, that when he does so, he

20     should correctly quote what he is quoting and state what he is quoting.

21     He may have misunderstood some things, but this clearly says "I retired."

22     And in the direct examination, he never said that he was dismissed.  He

23     was saying about his retirement, that he retired.

24             MR. STAMP:  At 9398.6 of his testimony on the 1st of December,

25     line 6, he said, in answer to Mr. Djurdjic:

Page 9965

 1             "Yes, this is a definite decision for me.  It was passed by the

 2     minister of interior, and it says that I was dismissed altogether on the

 3     3rd of May 2001."

 4             Later on, in response to another question from Mr. Djurdjic at

 5     line 14:

 6             "At the moment when I was dismissed from the position of the --

 7     of assistant minister and when I was appointed counsellor to the

 8     minister, the minister decided that I should be a member of the

 9     coordinating body for south of Serbia."

10             This is a different dismissal.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on please, Mr. Stamp.

12             MR. STAMP:  I think there are other occasions.

13        Q.   And what I think, since this objection is raised, I should put on

14     the record that you were telling this Court on that day that you were

15     never aware that your dismissal was being contemplated until the 3rd.

16     The Prosecution had put on its exhibit list to question you, your letter

17     requesting dismissal.  And Mr. Djurdjic, at 9764, in light of that

18     history, asked you this question just before the end of your

19     examination-in-chief:

20             "Thank you.  Under Article 41 of the ministry of -- or rather, of

21     the Law of Internal Affairs, you went into early retirement.  Did you;

22     and, if so, when did you sign the request to retire?"

23             Up until Mr. Djurdjic put those words in your mouth, most

24     probably having seen the Prosecution's list, you did not say that you

25     made a request to retire.  Do you remember that?

Page 9966

 1        A.   Well, there must be a hundred questions here.  The first question

 2     is my dismissal from the position of assistant minister.

 3        Q.   Sorry, sorry, the question is this:  You have already told us,

 4     Mr. Djordjevic, that you never said so.  So the question now is this:  Do

 5     you recall that you first referred to sending a letter requesting

 6     retirement after Mr. Djurdjic told you that in the question that he asked

 7     you?  Do you remember that?  You remember, the answer is yes; if you do

 8     not remember, the answer is no.

 9        A.   Please, sir.  This isn't just about yes or no.  I want to repeat:

10     I worked on the 3rd of October, and I was 350 kilometres away from

11     Belgrade.  On that day, the decision about my retirement was passed.  On

12     that evening, Sreten Lukic called me to come because I was a pensioner

13     then.  I come on the 4th, he gives me an application for early

14     retirement, and then I signed both the application and the decision about

15     my retirement.  That's the only truth.  Nothing else.  So I did not, on

16     the 30th or whichever date is mentioned in the document --

17        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

18        A.   On that date, I didn't sign an application for early retirement.

19        Q.   Again, you refuse to answer the question I put to you.

20        A.   I am not refusing anything.  Come on.  Go ahead.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  I think, Mr. Djurdjic, this is a matter you deal

22     with in re-examination if that is the point.

23             MR. DJURDJIC:  [Interpretation] Absolutely.  But it's recorded

24     wrongly in the transcript --

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, clearly there are minds torn about

Page 9967

 1     this issue.  We do not want to hear your account of the facts, we want to

 2     hear the witness's at this point.  You will have full opportunity to deal

 3     with it with the witness in re-examination.

 4             Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   In the letter to Mr. -- to the newspaper, if I can find it again.

 7             MR. STAMP:  1474.  Page 7 in English, page 6 in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   And this is on perhaps what some people would call the most

 9     important issue you could cover in this letter.  It's the penultimate

10     paragraph in the B/C/S and the third paragraph in the English:

11             "I first found out about the refrigerator truck with bodies in

12     the Danube after being informed by the chief minister" -- sorry, excuse

13     me -- "by the chief of Bor, SUP, Caslav Golubovic.  He informed me that

14     there were several scores of bodies in refrigerator truck, and I

15     immediately proposed that the complete criminal process be conducted

16     there."

17             To which you reply that there were no conditions to do so there.

18             "Immediately after that conversation, I informed the minister

19     about everything.  And half an hour later, he issued an order for me --

20     order to me for the bodies to be transported to Belgrade for autopsy and

21     further criminal processing."

22             I repeat, in this letter you said:

23             "In respect to these corpses, the minister issued an order to me

24     for the bodies to be transported to Belgrade for autopsy and for further

25     criminal processing."

Page 9968

 1             I already read to you what you said when you opened in January of

 2     this year at transcript 240, page 240, and also what you said to us at

 3     transcript 9721, a third version where you said that the order of the

 4     minister was that after routine procedures the bodies should be buried in

 5     the vicinity where found.  Three accounts.  But let's focus on this one

 6     that you sent to the people in Serbia.  That, again, was a

 7     misrepresentation of what you did after you discovered or you were told

 8     about the truck with the bodies, isn't it?

 9        A.   I think that these things should be held apart.  What was written

10     for the newspapers and another thing are the details about which I'm

11     speaking here.  So then, when I was called up by the head of the SUP,

12     Golubovic, he told me that the --

13        Q.   Please stop there.  I do not wish and I do not ask that you go to

14     explain the history.  I have read to you three different accounts.  I

15     want to know -- the question is:  Is the account that I just read, that

16     you wrote to the newspapers, a deliberate misrepresentation?

17        A.   What I wrote for the papers is presented basically the way it

18     was.  There are some details, which I didn't mention then, but I'm giving

19     evidence now about all these facts.  I don't think that the most

20     important thing is what is said here, and what I wrote for the papers.  I

21     haven't left out anything here.  When I give an account of my actions,

22     that followed this first information.  But this is an opportunity here to

23     discuss all that in detail.

24        Q.   I see.  If we could return to your defiance of orders that you

25     received from the minister which you didn't agree with.  You recall that

Page 9969

 1     you testified in a trial in Serbia, testified via videolink on the 20 --

 2     on a date in July this year?  26th of June.  Do you recall that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. STAMP:  And I think this is Exhibit 6010.  Sorry,

 5     65 ter number 601.

 6        Q.   We have it here.  This is a transcript of your testimony on that

 7     day, is it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Let's move to page 10.  I think that is page 12 in

10     B/C/S.

11        Q.   And you say again here that you were given the order on the

12     5th of October to shoot, or rather, to issue the order to kill the

13     excavator operator who was driving, and then:

14             "I entered into a fierce conflict with him and refused to obey

15     that order in the presence of General Zekovic.  Therefore, he could issue

16     all kinds of orders, whichever he wanted, and the problem was whether

17     these tasks could be carried out or not.  I found that the task I was

18     given was completely in accordance with the regulations that members of

19     the service were entitled to do, and I issued the order for this task."

20             I believe, here, what you want to say is that -- or what you are

21     saying is that you refused -- you refused to obey this order to shoot the

22     excavator operator because it was not in accordance with the regulations;

23     is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Since we are on this document, before I close it, I'll probably

Page 9970

 1     come back to it.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at page 15.  Another thing I noticed.

 3     And page 15 in English is page 18 in B/C/S.

 4        Q.   In this -- in that case, Mr. Djordjevic, you were aware of your

 5     obligation to tell the Court the truth, were you not?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And this was an investigation or a trial of persons who were

 8     tried for the murder of three American citizens of Kosovo Albanian

 9     descent?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You are asked by the Deputy Prosecutor, and it's at page 15,

12     whether you ever met Popovic, who was one of the accused, in Kosovo or

13     elsewhere.  And in your answer you say:

14             "He may have seen me, but I don't know if I saw him.  I cannot be

15     sure.  But I was down there in 1998, so it was possible for him to see me

16     and to meet me.  In 1999 I was there only once with the minister."

17             Well, we know from your evidence here that in 1999 you were down

18     a few more times than once.  And I suggest to you that when you testified

19     in June, you say -- you must have known that.  Didn't you deliberately

20     misrepresent the amount of times you were in Kosovo in 1999 to the war

21     crimes court of Belgrade when you testified in June this year?

22        A.   I had no reason to misrepresent that --

23        Q.   No, I'm not asking you about any explanations.  I will get to

24     that later.  The record here says that you told them that you were there

25     only once and this was material to the issues in the trial.  And I asked

Page 9971

 1     you if that was a deliberate misrepresentation to the Belgrade court.

 2        A.   If I said that, I probably made a mistake.  I have no reason

 3     to -- not to tell that court that I was there two or three times, as many

 4     times as I was.

 5        Q.   That is your answer.

 6             MR. STAMP:  It's a little bit after the time, Your Honours, I was

 7     wondering if it's convenient for the Court.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  I think we must draw to a close today, Mr. Stamp.

 9     I know it's at the end of a day that has been tiring for both yourself

10     and the witness.  Can I ask how you see your timing?

11             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I think I should be finished sometime

12     in the course of Monday.  I say this -- and I do not want to get into any

13     issues with the witness, but I -- it depends on whether or not I can

14     control the response to the question.  I do have a lot of material.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp, we can I assist you.  We've made

16     arrangements this afternoon to assist you by arranging to sit tomorrow

17     from 10.00 until 4.00.

18             MR. STAMP:  I'm grateful, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  That there will be a break of an hour for lunch

20     between 1.30 and 2.30.  That will give you a longer time, but it will

21     give both you and the witness a more manageable day.

22             Now, with that having been done, the Chamber expects that you

23     will be able to finish by the end of the first session on Monday, so as

24     to enable re-examination to be dealt with.  If you can keep that in mind

25     as you plan tomorrow and plan over the weekend.

Page 9972

 1             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, before the Court I rises, I'm sorry, I

 2     think I left a little bit of housekeeping undone.  06010, identified by

 3     the witness, to be the transcript.  Could that be received in evidence.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  The transcript of the evidence given, was it in

 5     June or July of this year?

 6             MR. STAMP:  In June.  26th of June, 2009.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, it will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P1508.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, I'm unclear at this moment.  We have the

10     envelope in which a letter was sent to a magazine from Moscow.  Do we

11     have the letter as an exhibit?

12             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  What exhibit number is the letter?

14             MR. STAMP:  It's P1474.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  Now, tomorrow, to

16     accommodate that different sitting time, we've got to move courts, and we

17     will be in Courtroom II tomorrow, and we commence at 10.00.  We will

18     adjourn now until tomorrow.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of

21                           December, 2009, at 10.00 a.m.