1 Thursday, 10 December 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours and good afternoon.
7 WITNESS: VLASTIMIR DJORDJEVIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
10 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, good afternoon.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Were you informed by Mr. Lukic or any senior member of the police
13 administration of the arming of ethnic Serb in reserve police squads
14 during the summer of 1998?
15 A. Yes, I was aware of that but those were not detachments the
16 reserve police, but reserve police squads.
17 Q. These were ethnic Serb civilians in villages and settlements who
18 were given weapons ostensibly to depend the village and settlements?
19 A. Those were members of the reserve police force and of the reserve
20 force in the army who were issued weapons, and they, as part of the
21 reserve police squads, were supposed to protect their villages against
22 terrorist incursions.
23 Q. There's a difference which has been explained to us in court
24 before between a reserve policeman, a reservist, and a member of these
25 reserve police squads. The members of the reserve police squads were not
1 reserve policemen, were they?
2 A. They were not policemen, no.
3 Q. And were you ever aware that these members of the reserve police
4 squads were sometimes used in joint MUP/VJ operations?
5 A. I was not aware of it. I'm sure that they were not used for any
6 joint army and police actions. The reserve police squads' purview was to
7 mount a defence. They could only protect the parts of the villages
8 inhabited by non-Albanians, or if those villages were purely Serbian in
9 ethnical terms, they defended and protected those villages, and nothing
10 else. They never launched any attacks. They never went to other
11 villages to attack them. They didn't provide any support to the army or
12 to the police in any anti-terrorist activities.
13 Q. You did see -- I did show you yesterday, a document, an order by
14 General Pavkovic engaging MUP and VJ forces in which he also engaged
15 civilians to help in a blockade. You are saying you weren't aware of
16 that aspect of the operation?
17 A. I was not aware of the armed Serbs, or rather, we are talking
18 about the reserve police squads. Let us focus on that now. Reserve
19 police squads were never used to act in concert with the army and the
20 police in the execution of any tasks, as far as I know.
21 Q. Were armed ethnic Serb civilians who were not members of either
22 the VJ or the police, the MUP, used in any of these operations?
23 A. I was not aware of that.
24 Q. Did you discuss the arming of ethnic Serbs with other members of
25 what has been described as the Joint Command?
1 A. I think that there is a category where people were armed as part
2 of the Territorial Defence or the civilian protection, but this was done
3 by the military structures. I was not aware of it. I was not told about
4 it. I was more focused on the protection of the villages against
5 terrorist attacks, and reserve police squads were tasked with that.
6 So the policy of en block, en masse arming of the Serb civilians
7 is unfamiliar to me. Whether it was done in accordance with some
8 military rules or a decision of the defence minister, I really don't know
9 the details, and I can't really say anything because I'm not qualified.
10 I know that those civilians were not involved in any offensive operations
11 targeting the terrorists.
12 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, let's save some time. I'll ask the question
13 again, and I'll just ask you to answer it. Did you discuss or
14 participate in discussions regarding the arming of ethnic Serb civilians
15 with other members of the so-called Joint Command? That's the question.
16 A. No, I didn't discuss it with them at all.
17 Q. Now, you said that the army was involved in arming Serb -- you
18 said, maybe there was something done under some military rules. And
19 there's a category of people who were armed, but this was done by the
20 military structure. Were the reserve police squads commanded by members
21 of the MUP that were ultimately down the chain of command subordinate to
23 A. First of all, let's clear the last question up. Nobody was
24 subordinate to me. That's the first thing. It's the key issue, in fact,
25 to my mind. Secondly, it is quite likely that some of the active police
1 officers were in charge of some reserve police squads, that would be a
2 police officer who was from that village or from a neighbouring village,
3 and it was his task to provide some kind of a professional support or
4 assistance to the population and to the reserve police squad to help
5 defend them against the terrorists.
6 I can tell you that for a number of years before this period
7 there was a lot of pressure on the Serb people, the non-Albanian people
8 in general there. Two, three, or five years before the events that we
9 are talking about, we would send four or five police officers to guard a
10 single house surrounded by Albanian houses in a village, and those police
11 officers lived in the same household with the villagers to protect them
12 against the attacks and the pressure exerted by the extremist Albanians
13 in order to ensure their bare survival.
14 So the police provided support in various ways to protect the
15 people that were under pressure of this or that kind. And at that time
16 when the entire territory of Kosovo, for all intents and purposes, was
17 heavily under the influence of terrorists, it was decided that this would
18 be a good way to protect the villages. But you have to understand this,
19 this is very clear, to protect the villages, none of these people who had
20 weapons went to other villages to kill Albanians or whatever. It was
21 their task to remain in their village and defend it, and they never were
22 engaged in any offensive operations whatsoever.
23 Q. I glean from your answer, Mr. Djordjevic, that you are saying
24 that quite likely a police officer from the village or from a
25 neighbouring village might have provided some kind of professional
1 support. Do you not know that these reserve police squads were placed
2 under the command of the local police station, the chief of a local
3 police station?
4 A. Well, there's confusion here. They were never placed under
5 command of any of the local officers, police officers, police stations,
6 or SUP
7 station provided them with radio stations, weapons, so that if there was
8 an attack, they could call the police station and the police station
9 could then take measures to protect them against the terrorists.
10 MR. STAMP: Could we look quickly at document 1052.
11 JUDGE PARKER: While that is coming up, could I mention that the
12 transcript at page 2, line 1, shows two questions in a row with no answer
13 recorded. There was an answer. It may be incorporated into one of the
14 questions, or it may have been missed altogether. If that could be
15 checked and confirmed when the transcript is being verified. Thank you.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. The members of the reserve police squads, these villagers, they
18 were not policemen, neither regular policemen nor reserve policemen, that
19 is what you had said before?
20 A. Yes. Or rather, some of them were members of the reserve force,
21 but at that time those people were not engaged as the members of the
22 reserve force of the police station, so they were on the list of the
23 reserve force, but at that point in time, they were doing jobs that had
24 nothing to do with the police station work, simply to protect the
25 village. They did not -- they were not entitled to anything, to DSA, to
1 salaries as MUP members while they were doing that. Some of them may
2 have been on the list of the reserve force, but they were not used in
3 that capacity. There was a major difference between the two categories.
4 MR. STAMP: I think we have the wrong document before the Court.
5 I wanted P1052. And could we move on to page 2.
6 Q. This is a dispatch from Major-General Lukic of the
7 10th of January [sic], 1998, to the commanders of the departments of the
8 interior for Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, is it not?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in the second paragraph, he says:
11 "To organise the defence of village with the newly-formed reserve
12 police squads."
13 And next he says:
14 "Carry out combat training of all RPOs. And for every RPO,
15 create a file which include, among other things, the training plan,
16 communications plan, ammunition renewal plan, staff control plan at a
17 municipal level."
18 Does this document indicate to you -- and also if I could remind
19 you of the testimony of the former SUP
20 organised, managed, and controlled by the MUP, by the local police
22 A. It says here quite clearly what obligations are imposed on the
23 police stations where police squads were to be set up, so the MUP staff
24 here informs the secretariats and the police stations that they should do
25 some things to ensure that the members of the reserve force, or rather,
1 the reserve police squad, could defend their villages. And in this
2 regard, a plan, combat training plan was drafted. This combat training
3 plan involved infantry weapons training in order to make sure that the
4 members of those squads could actually use those weapons. It also
5 included various measures to fortify the village, to defend it against
6 the terrorists. Also the communications plan in order to ensure that if
7 the terrorists attack the villages, they could call the police stations
8 in order for the police stations to be able to assist them in case of a
9 terrorist attack. So all those obligations imposed on the police
10 stations by this order, in fact, concern logistics, training, and
11 equipping members of the reserve police squads in order to make sure that
12 they would be able to defend their villages.
13 Q. The question is, does this document not remind you or indicate to
14 you that these local police stations were responsible for organising,
15 training, and managing these reserve police squads?
16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
17 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Correction for the transcript:
18 The date should be the 10th of July, 1998, and the transcript reads the
19 10th of January. Page 6, line 4.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic. There was a question
21 asked, you are waiting on an answer, Mr. Stamp.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Could I get the question
23 again because now I lost the thread.
24 MR. STAMP:
25 Q. Does the document remind you or indicate to you that the local
1 OUPs, the local departments of interior were responsible for the
2 management and organisation of these reserve police squads?
3 A. We have two questions here. The first concerns management, and
4 the other, organisation. The police stations were duty-bound to provide
5 assistance to the reserve police squads to train them so that they would
6 be able to respond independently to terrorist attacks. But the police
7 stations did not exert control over those reserve police squads.
8 Q. Very well.
9 MR. STAMP: Could we look at 1053. P1053.
10 Q. This is a document from one commander, Radica Nastic, of the
11 military department of Kosovska Mitrovica, and he speaks of training of
12 the reserve formation of the Ministry of Interior in the villages of --
13 in the municipality of Vucitrn
14 the arming and training of these members of the reserve police squads?
15 A. As far as I know, members of the reserve police squads included
16 some of the members of the reserve force of the Yugoslav army, locals,
17 people who lived in those villages. So the reserve police squads did not
18 comprise only members of the reserve police force. Some of the people
19 there in those squads were also part of the Yugoslav army reserve force.
20 I think there were cases where the Yugoslav army provided assistance to
21 the MUP to train the reserve force. It was always the case because these
22 people were really highly qualified to deal with some topics as part of
23 the training, so I think this was what this is all about.
24 Q. Do you have any idea how many infantry weapons, or approximately
25 how many infantry weapons were distributed to members of these reserve
1 police squads in 1998?
2 A. Well, I couldn't really give you the figure.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Probably to all the squad members, or rather, all the squad
5 members or most of them were issued weapons. It was possible that each
6 squad, let's say, was given ten rifles and then they could use it in
7 shifts. So I don't know how many pieces; I don't know the figure.
8 Q. Wasn't the co-ordination of the arming and training of these
9 groups by both the VJ and the MUP organised through the Joint Command or
10 organised as a result of decisions made by the so-called Joint Command
11 whose meeting that you attended?
12 A. I don't know of such a decision being taken, but there is the
13 instruction of the leaders of the MUP staff how the defence of villages
14 should be organised through reserve police squads and the military in
15 accordance with relevant rules and regulations as well as categories
16 applied there probably dealt with their own reservists in different ways.
17 MR. STAMP: Can we look at P1054. Is that before -- is that the
18 one before the Court?
19 Q. This is a report from SUP
20 squads in this area that he sent to the MUP staff in Pristina -- to the
21 head of the MUP staff in Pristina. And he said that in the SUP area,
22 this is the first part of the document, 41 reserve police branch station
23 RPOs have been organised with a total of 1.374 members. He says a total
24 of 1.000 long-barreled weapons have been delivered of which 735 have been
25 distributed. And he goes on to give a breakdown of the leadership and
1 the organisation of these reserve police squads which he describes as
2 reserve police branch stations.
3 MR. STAMP: If you move on to page 2 both in B/C/S and English.
4 Q. I'm just asking you to look quickly at the document. And it's
5 pretty much the same going through.
6 MR. STAMP: If you could move to the last page in both B/C/S and
8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] The problem is that you can hear
12 me even without a microphone.
13 Could we first see the second page because it couldn't be seen on
14 the B/C/S version.
15 MR. STAMP: Could we move to the end of the document, please.
16 Could we move to the end of the document, please.
17 Q. Signed by Colonel Cvetic as the head of the secretariat --
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I really don't want to bother
20 you, I'm sorry, but the second page of the document doesn't match the
21 second page of the English version. If we go back to the second page of
22 the B/C/S version, you can see the Roman numerals II and III, and in the
23 English version you won't find them. Under II and III, that is, under
24 Zvecan, there is this part with a heading "Zvecan" is missing altogether
25 in the Serbian version so that there are items Roman II and Roman III.
1 Both versions match here, but under II and III, there is nothing in the
2 Serbian version.
3 JUDGE PARKER: What you are missing is on the next page.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now, yes.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: Thanks, Your Honour.
7 And could we go to the end of the document, please.
8 Q. Signed by Mr. Cvetic here in which he indicates the total number
9 of the weapons that were delivered to these persons. Does this not
10 indicate to you, Mr. Djordjevic, that the local police were responsible
11 for the management of these local police squads?
12 A. Well, the notion of management has about a dozen components. I'm
13 not sure what you mean. I said that the police secretariat -- some
14 police stations provided help, and they equipped reserve police squads.
15 And here we see that there were also members of the military reserve
16 forces, and these police squads were equipped. There was training and
17 preparation for those people to be able to use the weapons they were
18 given to defend themselves against terrorists. But that doesn't mean
19 that the police station manages these squads.
20 But could I ask for the first page to be put back on the screen
21 so that we can see the date when this was drafted.
22 MR. STAMP:
23 Q. 1st of July, 1998.
24 A. At that time and before, I was in Belgrade, and these were duties
25 performed by the staff. They were responsible for that. And even later
1 during my stay down there and after getting acquainted with these
2 documents, I can say that I have never seen any of these documents. They
3 weren't forwarded to me, and I don't know anything about this. This
4 reads that -- or this shows how these squads were established, and it
5 shows some principles. But this all took place outside the scope of my
6 stay at Kosovo, and the staff acted in accordance with instructions and
7 their obligations. And they were involved in co-ordination with the
8 military and equipping the police squad, et cetera, but this is all
9 outside of my stay there.
10 MR. STAMP: Let's look at P975.
11 Q. This is dated the 30th of July, within your stay.
12 This is Major-General Lukic's dispatch to the SUP chief for
13 Kosovska Mitrovica SUP
14 "Please find enclosed extracts from the register of weapons
15 issued by the Army of Yugoslavia to citizens engaged in reserve police
16 stations to defend villages and cities in the municipalities under your
17 secretariat's jurisdiction."
18 And if we look at the next page, you see him give a breakdown of
19 the municipalities for a total of 7.436 in the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP.
20 This one is in the time-frame when you were there, Mr. Djordjevic. You
21 still maintain that you don't know about this?
22 A. I didn't say that I knew nothing about it. I said that I know in
23 principle but I don't know this information. This is the first time I've
24 seen this breakdown. You can believe me. I didn't get the instructions
25 issued by the Chief of Staff to the secretariats in the field, nor did I
1 know anything about that. I only knew that reserve police squads were
2 established, I knew their composition, I knew that they were armed and
3 that they were preparing to defend themselves against the terrorists.
4 But this summary and the instructions given by the Chief of Staff to the
5 secretariats in accordance with the obligations of the Chief of Staff,
6 well, this is the first time I've seen these instructions and this
8 We can see what these instructions are like, and it is clearly
9 outlined who is charged with distributing weapons. But I didn't decide
10 about this nor did I control the work of the staff in this respect.
11 Q. You knew about the arming of these reserve police squads,
12 Mr. Djordjevic, from your participation in meetings of the so-called
13 Joint Command; is that so?
14 A. No, it isn't. I knew that they were being armed through my
15 contacts with the staff. And I didn't learn that at staff meetings.
16 There may have been mention of that too, but it was no decision of that
17 staff or that Joint Command, as you call it, to establish reserve police
18 squads. The reserve police squads, as far as I know, were established
19 based on the decision of the MUP staff, and then all these steps took
20 place through synchronising all activities and their training, equipping,
21 and preparing for defence. The basic issue is that these police squads
22 were not used for offensive actions, but only to defend their bare lives.
23 I don't know if you can understand that.
24 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, you keep going way beyond the questions I ask you
25 and using time unnecessarily in saying things two or three times.
1 The next question is this - and maybe I should show you a
2 document when I ask it.
3 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P886.
4 Q. That's the document in front of you. That's the minutes of the
5 MUP staff of the Joint Command meetings.
6 MR. STAMP: We could go to 20th of July, and in English I think
7 that's page 18.
8 Q. Before you look at that, just scroll back to the pages earlier to
9 satisfy yourself that you attended that meeting, according to these
10 records. Isn't that correct, you were there?
11 A. Which date is this?
12 Q. 20th of July, 1998.
13 A. Well, the first date here is the 22nd of July, that must have
14 been the 22nd of August maybe. On the 20th of July, 1998, no meetings
15 were held.
16 Q. Two eight. 28.
17 A. That's something else. The interpretation that I received was
18 the 20th.
19 Q. You were there, weren't you?
20 A. Yes, I was there.
21 MR. STAMP: And if you could go to the last page of that day,
22 which is page 18 of the English.
23 Q. Mr. Andjelkovic is recorded to have said:
24 "Check the training - 52.250 barrels have been issued."
25 Do you know what he was referring to? What were you discussing?
1 A. I don't know what he meant there. 52.000 barrels, I really don't
2 know what he meant. Let me see what this is. I can't find Andjelkovic
4 Q. It's the last entry for that day.
5 A. Yeah, but the pages are oriented differently. The 28th --
6 Q. Very well --
7 A. This must be the first page.
8 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... it's on the screen.
9 MR. STAMP: Could we expand the B/C/S on the screen.
10 Q. Let's move quickly, Mr. Djordjevic.
11 A. Well, yes, here, Andjelkovic, number 2.
12 Q. What were you discussing that that made reference to?
13 A. I can't read, here, what the minute-taker put down. There's a
14 breakdown by communities, authorities, distribution, inspection. I don't
15 know how it was translated.
16 Q. Very well. He said "check the training - 52.250 barrels have
17 been issued." What does that mean? What were you discussing when he
18 said that?
19 A. Well, how am I supposed to say what we spoke about? The one who
20 took these minutes put down what was interesting to him. And I'm now
21 supposed to interpret -- an inspection is mentioned, then some guy
22 Andjelkovic is supposed to give orders. I don't really understand this.
23 I don't -- what is noted here isn't clear to me.
24 Q. Very well. And if that's your answer, you can just say so, you
25 don't know, without us --
1 A. I would like to know, but this is less than precise. 52.250, if
2 I'm not mistaken, rifles were distributed and some kind of inspection is
3 taking place. I really don't know for which needs these rifles were
4 distributed. It doesn't -- it can't be inferred based on this, so I
5 really can't say anything useful, really.
6 Q. But you see that, I think, from your answer we can take it that
7 he was referring to rifles. That day you were out in the field, that is
8 a day you were in Malisevo and you missed a MUP staff meeting with the
9 permission of the minister, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yes, thank you.
12 A. I didn't attend the meeting at which the minister was.
13 Q. Let's look at the minutes of the meeting.
14 MR. STAMP: It's P688.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here I can see that General Rade
16 attended, it's probably Rade Markovic. So he also attends this meeting
17 of… what you call the Joint Command.
18 MR. STAMP:
19 Q. Really I'm not asking you that. Let's look at P688. Minutes of
20 the MUP staff meeting of the 20th of July, attended by the minister
22 MR. STAMP: If we could move to page 3.
23 Q. Just to get an idea of the attendees.
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. STAMP: And if we could move to page 7 in English, and I
1 believe that's the penultimate page in B/C/S. But let's go to page 7 in
2 the English, first.
3 Q. Do you have before you the record of the intervention of major --
4 or Captain Pesic.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Well, can you read it? This is what Captain Pesic reported to
7 the minister and the other senior members of the MUP present. He said:
8 "Weapons have been distributed to 54.683 persons. The MUP issued
9 12.170 weapons; the VJ, 34.716; the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
10 another 5.070 pieces of weapons to the territory of Kosovo
11 being issued. When all of this is finished, about 60.000 persons have
12 been issued weapons."
13 Now, as the chief of the RJB, were you aware that it was that
14 quantity of weapons, infantry weapons, over 50.000, that was distributed
15 to the RPOs in Kosovo?
16 A. I was not familiar with this figure, but from this report I
17 gather that this is the figure they speak about. But while I was down
18 there, I didn't know that this number of persons was involved and nor did
19 I know the relative shares given by the MUP and the VJ respectively.
20 The -- I did not know these concrete figures at the time.
21 Q. But this involved a significant amount of logistic operations,
22 logistics from the headquarters of the ministry, since we see here that
23 weapons are being moved from out of Kosovo into Kosovo to arm these
24 people. Wouldn't you or shouldn't you be aware of that?
25 A. Firstly, the weapons are distributed to the organisational units
1 of the MUP. So, in a way, it was a regular way of equipping the
2 secretariat in accordance with the needs reported. Each of these weapons
3 is registered so that relevant information is available. I believe that
4 this is a regular obligation which was necessary at the time.
5 Q. You saw that many of these weapons from a previous document I
6 showed you included machine-guns. The evidence of Mr. Cvetic is that
7 these citizens would keep these guns in their homes. Were you aware of
9 A. I think that some of those people really did take those weapons
10 home, or wherever it was that their security service was set up.
11 MR. STAMP: If we look at the next page of this document, and I
12 think if you could hold it there, the next page in English. And I think
13 it remains the same page in B/C/S. I think it's the same page in B/C/S.
14 Q. General Lukic also says, reports to the minister:
15 "We are also arming citizens in towns, and plans for defending
16 towns have been drawn up."
17 You see that? Now, the question is --
18 A. Yes, I can see it.
19 Q. Having regard to what is reported here to the minister contained
20 in this document, weren't you aware that these reserve police squads were
21 being managed by the MUP in Kosovo?
22 A. I have said ten times the term "management" or whatever the term
23 is being used in the interpretation, but MUP and the police station did
24 not manage the reserve police squads. I've already said that logistics
25 issues, equipping, training, organisation of the defence and so on, but
1 if you want to say that they were part of the ministry and that the
2 ministry ordered them to do this or that, well, that was not done.
3 They had a very specific task, to defend their villages. The MUP
4 provided them with assistance, by equipping them, providing them with
5 communications equipment and some training, but MUP did not manage it,
6 did not control those squads. And secondly, Minister Stojiljkovic
7 himself says here, since I can see that you are reading the data from a
8 report, Please send this report to the Serbian MUP.
9 So he asks Captain Pesic to send this report to him, and he is
10 asking him about 250 radio stations, or rather, he is asking Lukic about
11 that. So I'm just saying you can see what kind of orders the minister is
12 issuing and what kind of information he is asking those who were present
13 at the meeting to give him.
14 MR. STAMP: Let's look quickly at another document. D340.
15 Q. This is a VJ document dated the 2nd of October, 1998
16 MR. STAMP: And if we could go to page 4 in the English, and I
17 don't have the B/C/S page, but that is item 3.
18 Q. We see here at the last bullet point under "experiences gained"
19 we see:
20 "The distribution of weapons to citizens loyal to the FRY has
21 made it possible for large-scale resistance against the terrorists to be
23 I just point out that part of it to you, Mr. Djordjevic, to ask
24 you if you remember that this being a coordinated activity between the
25 MUP and the VJ, it was -- it received it's direction from the
1 Joint Command? Do you accept that or disagree?
2 A. I disagree, of course.
3 Q. Let's look at the Joint Command minutes briefly.
4 MR. STAMP: That's P886. Meeting of the 29th of July, 1998
5 29th of July, 1998. English page 22.
6 Q. And I think it's page 22 also in your copy. Last entry, and
7 before we discuss that, can you just look at the document and tell us if
8 you were present at that meeting, if you are recorded as being present at
9 that meeting?
10 A. Yes, I was present.
11 Q. And General Lukic is quoted here as saying that:
12 "Weapons were distributed today in Vitina (1.100)
13 Kosovska Kamenica, training has not been conducted."
14 You see the last entry on that page?
15 A. 29th of July, General Lukic.
16 Q. Have you found it?
17 A. In the English version -- well, I can't see what is written
18 there, but if I'm not mistaken, he is talking about 3.000 uniforms for
19 the reserve force, I'm now talking about the English version. He is not
20 talking about weapons or anything.
21 Q. I'll read it to you, the last entry for that day on the report,
22 so possibly not General Lukic:
23 "Weapons were distributed today in Vitina (1.100)
24 Kosovska Kamenica, training has not been conducted yet."
25 Were you at that meeting discussing --
1 A. Yes, yes, I can see it now.
2 Q. -- discussing the distribution of weapons to ethnic Serb
3 civilians and their training? Do you remember --
4 A. It is correct, this is what is stated in this report. If
5 everything that is recorded here is correct, yes, I was present there on
6 that day. But now what categories are we talking about here? Whoever
7 took the minutes, wrote down whatever he thought was important. He says,
8 Today they gave weapons in Vitina 1.100 and in Kosovska Kamenica, and
9 there is a no other information, whether it was distributed to the army,
10 to the reserve police, to whoever; it really is not stated. And what was
11 the basis for those weapons being issued?
12 Q. That's what I asked you. You were there at this discussion.
13 Those are those notes. Do you remember, and could you fill us in on what
14 you were talking about in respect to these weapons? Do you recall?
15 A. Well, how am I supposed to remember after ten years? I agree and
16 I accept that this was discussed, but there's no decision here to that
17 effect. Weapons had been distributed earlier on whatever basis, and this
18 is just a report informing those present that the weapons had been
19 distributed. And now as for on the basis of what decision, it's not
20 stated here.
21 MR. STAMP: Let's look at another entry. Page 55, the meeting
22 for the 20th of August, 1998. And page 55 in English, page 56, I think,
23 in Serbian.
24 Q. And firstly, could you confirm for us whether or not you were
25 present at that meeting?
1 A. It says here that I was present, yes.
2 Q. And we see Mr. Minic speaking. And the third -- one, two three,
3 four, the fourth bullet point in this speech --
4 MR. STAMP: Perhaps you could expanded the B/C/S copy.
5 Q. Says --
6 A. Fourth bullet point:
7 "Engage the Serbs in those villages."
8 If that's the one you mean? "Recruit the Serbs"?
9 Q. "Recruit the Serbs in those villages (list the villages) and
10 organise a meeting with the village commanders."
11 Again, noted as if this is a command. Do you recall that
12 discussion at this meeting?
13 A. Well, if this is the record of the meeting, it might very well
14 be, but I can't remember. How am I supposed to remember? But this term,
15 the village commander, it was not used; I'm sure about that. As to why
16 it was used here, I can't tell you. It's beyond me. There was
17 discussion about the situation in the villages, the problems that they
18 encountered, the attacks on the villages, the defence that was mounted.
19 Those issues were discussed. Information was exchanged. This was not
20 controversial at all.
21 Q. Yes, but can I ask you this: In a situation when there is very
22 high electric ethnic tensions, if you are the chief of police, as the
23 most senior policeman, if you are aware that one ethnicity or members of
24 one ethnicity are being armed with machine-guns, 50.000 plus
25 machine-guns, and other infantry weapons, weren't you interested, at
1 least, to closely monitor that situation?
2 A. Please, on the eve of this period that we're talking about, and
3 even during that period, 50 per cent of Serbia was controlled, occupied
4 by the terrorists. The non-Albanian population was concerned. They were
5 afraid for their lives. They were moving out of this area under the
6 pressure from the terrorists. And now we are talking about whether those
7 Serbs were supposed to defend themselves or not. I really don't know.
8 Q. You know, maybe you didn't understand the question. I'm not
9 saying persons shouldn't be defended. I'm really asking you to address
10 what I consider to be a very worrisome thing about your memory, you don't
11 recall what other people might consider to be important things.
12 Here we have a situation when there is very strong ethnic tension
13 between the Serbian population and the Albanian population. Your police
14 force is involving -- involved in arming one group to the tune of up to
15 60.000 weapons, light-infantry weapons, but including machine-guns, which
16 these people keep at their homes. Were you not interested in monitoring
17 this situation very carefully?
18 A. Well, of course. The situation was monitored very closely. As
19 was the situation that resulted in 100.000 pieces of heavy weaponry,
20 machine-guns, and other heavy weaponry crossing into Kosovo from the
21 Albanian territory, that was later used by the terrorists to attack
22 civilians. So that was the situation. The Serbs did not take up arms to
23 defend themselves because they wanted to do that, because they were happy
24 to do that, because that was the only way for them to save their lives.
25 This is why it was done. This is why those people were trained so that
1 while we were waiting for the regular forces to come in so that they
2 would be able to defend themselves.
3 But let me tell you this: 60 citizens had been abducted from
4 Orahovac. Those people were worried about their family members. They
5 didn't know what was going on. They wanted somebody to go down there and
6 to hold a meeting. I went down there; I had a meeting with the
7 municipality chief and the police chief and Mr. Matkovic was there.
8 People were demanding arms. They said, We want to have arms to defend
9 ourselves. I didn't want to allow that. I said the police and the army
10 would look for your family members, and you cannot be given weapons and
11 do those things on your own. And now we have a situation that -- where
12 they had to save their lives. And it is very difficult to find a clever
14 Q. So did you receive any report on the work or on the engagement of
15 these armed ethnic Serbs and the use of these weapons with which they had
16 been supplied by members of the MUP?
17 A. I know that the weapons were used only for self-defence, and for
18 no other reason while I was down there. The weapons were not used for
19 any other purpose.
20 Q. Did you receive -- I'm just repeating the question. Did you
21 receive any report in your capacity as chief of police on the use of
22 those weapons that had been distributed to these people?
23 A. No, I did not receive any reports.
24 Q. Did you ask for any?
25 A. In light of my position, did I not receive any reports.
1 Q. But in light of your position as chief of the police, did you ask
2 for any?
3 A. Well, you've seen that the minister asked for very specific
4 reports --
5 Q. Did you?
6 A. -- from the minutes of that meeting. I didn't ask for any
7 reports, because I did not have any knowledge to the effect that there
8 was any abuse of those weapons.
9 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P1051.
10 Q. It is a July 1998 document, a Joint Command Kosovo and Metohija
11 document. Entitled "Instructions for the defence of inhabited places
12 (temporary)." We move to the first page, or the next page. It says:
13 "The goal of the instructions is to ensure in accordance with the
14 purpose and capabilities of the police forces defending towns, their
15 acquiring of adequate knowledge and application of standardised positions
16 and procedures in preparing and organising combat operations and unarmed
17 combat and resistance."
18 Were you aware of the circulation of this document in 1998?
19 A. I was not aware of it. I don't know whether it's from 1998 at
20 all. I didn't see the date. I was not aware of these instructions.
21 Q. July 1998. Same time as the meetings that I just showed you were
22 being conducted.
23 MR. STAMP: If we move to the next page, page 3 in the English.
24 And I think it might be the next page in the B/C/S as well.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the date is crucial here. Yes,
1 it is July, but there are 31 days in July. That's why I'm not familiar
2 with it. It may have been issued on the 10th or the 15th of July. We
3 don't know the date.
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. Under 2, you see that?
6 "In specific conditions, the forces for the defence of cities and
7 inhabited areas are the MUP units which unify all the forces in inhabited
8 areas and organise, lead, and perform combat operations. They change
9 their composition depending on the size and significance of the town."
10 So --
11 A. Well, it says "will exercise b/d;" that's what it is in this
12 item. I think that the army drafted the instructions because they use
13 this kind of terminology, b/d combat operations. But it's possible that
14 this was all done in the beginning of July or in mid-July when I was not
15 there at all. And that's why I am not able to remember this document.
16 The document itself, I know that there was discussion about
17 defence of the towns and villages and that terrorist actions were not
18 carried out in the towns. There were some indications that there would
19 be some terrorists attacks here or there, but I'm really not aware of
20 this document. But the way in which this document is drafted indicates
21 that it was drafted by somebody in the army.
22 Q. It's a Joint Command document, and you testified about how these
23 documents were drafted before.
24 MR. STAMP: If we could go to page 7 in the English document
25 under item 5. If you could find item 5 in the B/C/S and page 7 in the
1 English document.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 5, "Command." It's a military
3 term, pure and simple.
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. "Command and contrast." Could you read this first paragraph
6 aloud, please?
7 A. "Command and control is an activity of a staff organising the
8 defence of a town. The commander of the unit organising the defence is a
9 police officer, and he shall exercise command over the engaged forces.
10 The commander shall be responsible for the execution of the tasks that
11 were set."
12 When I read this, I'm completely unfamiliar with this document.
13 And, in fact, I'm not familiar with the system of the defence of a town.
14 You set up the defence of a town and you put a police officer in charge
15 of the defence, well, that's really something I'm not familiar with.
16 Q. You recall, I showed you another document in which General Lukic
17 himself had ordered setting up of units to be armed for defence of towns.
18 Do you recall that document?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 MR. STAMP: If we could look at another Joint Command meeting.
22 Q. This is one that was shown to you during your
23 examination-in-chief. The record of a meeting of the MUP staff for the
24 3rd of November, 1998, chaired by General Lukic. Did you attend this
25 meeting, Mr. Djordjevic?
1 A. I don't think so.
2 Q. There, in item 1, they discuss some agreements you had signed,
3 and if we move straightaway to item 8. This is page 3 of the English
4 document. Could you just read that. You can read it to yourself.
5 A. Yes, I've read it.
6 Q. He says, and this is -- I remind you, this is a discussion of how
7 to behave now that there were observers, KVM observers, as a result of
8 the agreements discussed in paragraph 1 of this document. He says:
9 "Make sure that Serbs and members of the RPOs do not misuse
10 weapons, let off guns at weddings, celebrations at Slava, farewell
11 parties, and so on. Do not carry weapons or show them in public in the
12 presence of the members of the mission."
13 So were you -- before I ask that question, can I just ask you,
14 does that statement, the record of the statement in this official MUP
15 document, indicate to you that these armed ethnic Serbs were under the
16 control of the police in Kosovo?
17 A. Of course it doesn't show that they were not under their control.
18 Here he warns that those who have weapons, if they misuse them, will be
19 subject to legal action. So they must not shoot at weddings, Slavas,
20 et cetera. And it's along these lines that he insists on a legal
21 behaviour. Here it says:
22 "Insist that Serbs and members of the RPO do not" --
23 Q. Do not misuse weapons. But, Mr. Djordjevic, he does not say that
24 they would be subject to legal action. Certainly not in this paragraph.
25 He is telling them, telling these senior police officers to restrain
1 these people because the mission, the KVM mission, has arrived. Isn't
2 that what he is doing?
3 A. That is not correct. This isn't what this is about at all.
4 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Just a minute, Mr. Djurdjic, there's an answer
6 being given.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not agree with your
8 conclusion. Here, the Chief of Staff warns -- the head of staff is
9 warning the chiefs of the SUPs of misuse. He insists that the weapons
10 should not be misused and should not be carried publicly. I don't know
11 how else to interpret what I can read here.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
13 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I noticed this for several times,
14 but I didn't want to react. Parts of the text are not interpreted
15 literally. And irrespective of the time constraints, I would ask my
16 learned friend Mr. Stamp to quote literally. This literally says "insist
17 that Serbs and members of the RPO do not misuse weapons, let off guns at
18 wettings, celebrations of Slava, farewell parties, and so on."
19 If we do quote, let us quote accurately and then subsequently
20 elicit an answer. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Carry on, Mr. Stamp.
22 MR. STAMP: Yes, I think I read that at page 27, lines 21 to 24.
23 Q. But I'm now going beyond a reading, literally, of this document,
24 Mr. Djordjevic. I want you to understand that, that I am suggesting to
25 you that what General Lukic is telling these police commanders is that
1 they should make sure that these armed Serb civilians refrain from using
2 the weapons in the manner discussed, letting them off at weddings,
3 celebrations of Slava, farewell parties, and so on, because of the
4 presence of the mission?
5 A. No. This clearly says, and this is part of the regular jobs of
6 the police: police and -- as part of their regular duties, establishes
7 offences committed by misuse of weapons. Here he says that the weapons
8 should not be misused, and he says, apart from that, they should not
9 carry weapons publicly. And they shouldn't show their weapons in the
10 presence of the members of the mission. That's what he says.
11 Q. And he goes on to say:
12 "Tell them not to state the fact that the Serbs are armed, and to
13 explain this fact if they must, using the excuse that it is only members
14 of the guard who are armed."
15 This is just General Lukic's instructions to the police chiefs.
16 Wasn't he telling the police chiefs that the massive arming of Serb
17 civilians in Kosovo should be concealed from the international observers?
18 A. He is pointing out here that at the guard points, one piece of
19 weaponry is used; and he also insists, as far as I can tell, in the
20 discharge of their duties, rather than individuals bringing weapons that
21 were distributed to them. And the fact that Serbs are armed -- this
22 doesn't say that they should conceal this fact from the members of the
24 Q. No, no, you are reading the document. I'll ask you the question
25 another way. Wouldn't you agree with me that this last sentence could be
1 interpreted to mean that the commanders of the police should ensure that
2 this massive arming of the Serb civilians is concealed by the --
3 concealed from the international KVM mission?
4 A. The way I read it, the basic task is prevent a misuse of these
5 weapons and see to it that the weapons are used exclusively for guarding
6 in the framework of the RPO. And one piece of weaponry should be used.
7 And weapons shouldn't be publicly displayed in the presence of the
8 mission members. So he is pointing out that a professional conduct is
9 required with regard to these weapons and that weapons should only be
10 used for exercising guard duty at these places.
11 Q. And when he says:
12 "Tell them not to state the fact that the Serbs are armed and to
13 explain this fact, if they must, using the excuse that it is only members
14 of the guards that are armed."
15 I suggest to you, Mr. Djordjevic, it is an effort to conceal from
16 the international observers the fact that the police in Kosovo were
17 engaged in a very, very dangerous -- what was known to be a very, very
18 dangerous programme of arming one ethnicity.
19 MR. STAMP: I am wondering if that's a convenient time,
20 Your Honours?
21 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the break now, Mr. Stamp, and
22 resume at 25 minutes past.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
1 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours. Could we have a look at
2 P902 again. And that is the minutes of the collegium meeting of the
3 21st of January, 1999. And go straight to page 16 in the English and
4 15 in the B/C/S.
5 Q. And while it's coming up, can I ask you, Mr. Djordjevic, wasn't
6 it an obvious fact of which the leadership of the armed force of Serbia
7 was aware that arming civilians could have very dangerous results?
8 A. I don't understand the question.
9 Q. Yes. I apologise. Do you see -- I can tell you without us
10 having to scroll through this that this is the contribution of the chief
11 of security, the VJ General Dimitrijevic, and do you see where he says in
12 the sixth paragraph of page 15 before you, sixth paragraph from the top,
13 he says:
14 "Bearing in mind the number of people owning or having been
15 distributed weapons, there is a realistic possibility on the Serbian and
16 Montenegrin side of the Serbian population organising itself to offer
17 resistance and of an increasing emergence of radical forces."
18 You see where the general has said that? Sixth paragraph from
19 the top.
20 A. Yes, that's what he says here.
21 Q. And this is January, now, 1999, weren't you aware, just as he is,
22 that the arming, with that type of weapon and that many weapons, of an
23 ethnic group in circumstances where there is strong ethnic tension had
24 many dangers or had, at least, a danger of the group becoming subject to
25 the influence of what he calls "radical forces," and of members of that
1 group committing crimes on an ethnic basis?
2 A. During my stay at Kosovo in 1998, no one member of these armed
3 groups of citizens committed any crime with the weapons towards a citizen
4 of other ethnicity.
5 Q. How do you know --
6 A. General Dimitrijevic's view and assessment -- I was down there in
7 1998. I said during my stay down there, no one member of the Serbian
8 people, thus armed, as we discussed, killed any one ethnic Albanian. And
9 on the other side, we had hundreds of people who were killed or kidnapped
10 by the terrorists. And the general is sitting in his cabinet, and he is
11 thinking about what could happen. Well, if they had had nuclear weapons,
12 they could have used them against each other, and in accordance with this
13 line of thinking. It's very easy sitting in your office and thinking,
14 while down there they’d brought in recoilless guns, machine-guns, and
15 mortars, and all sorts of things.
16 Q. I am merely asking, weren't you aware of the dangers of what you
17 were doing which required that you should closely monitor this situation?
18 A. Please, I didn’t do that. And
19 whether or not I was aware of the danger, that is a very general
21 Q. But were you?
22 A. I don't know how to answer that. Was I aware of that. If there
23 are weapons -- I mean, there are nuclear weapons, so there might be a
24 nuclear war. I had no concrete information showing that the Serb people
25 would self-organise in spite of the existence of strong police and
1 military units to defend itself against the Albanians. When people came
2 to me to ask for weapons so that they could go off themselves and look
3 for their kidnapped family and friends, I never consented to do that.
4 And you now want me to comment the way of thinking of
5 General Dimitrijevic who was sitting in Belgrade at the time.
6 Q. Let's move to February, and you were down in Kosovo, in Pristina,
7 at that time. Let's look at the minutes of 17th of February. P85. You
8 were shown those minutes by counsel during your examination-in-chief.
9 A. I wasn't there at the time. I was there on that day, so I
10 attended a meeting on that day.
11 Q. And one of the first things you mentioned when you were shown
12 this document in chief was that you did not know of a staff plans to
13 carry out three mopping-up operations until that meeting, or am I
14 misinterpreting what you are saying?
15 A. I didn't know of these actions. I didn't know who was planning
17 Q. This action involves some, what, 5.000 policemen in Kosovo, that
18 was a significant proportion of the policemen in Kosovo. And your
19 evidence is that you had no awareness of a plan involving 5.000 policemen
20 in Kosovo?
21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, there is a clear order showing who was duty-bound
22 to plan, to order, or to execute certain tasks in Kosovo when it comes to
23 combat or anti-terrorist activities, but I was not the one.
24 Q. You didn't know --
25 A. The one who was charged to do that -- of course I didn't know.
1 Q. He said, and this is in the -- at the end.
2 MR. STAMP: Maybe we could scroll down a little bit in both
3 copies so we can see the entirety of the first paragraph.
4 Q. "The staff plans, when it is ordered, to carry out three
5 mopping-up operations in Podujevo, Dragobilje, and Drenica areas, and has
6 allotted 4.000 policemen, around 70 policemen of the OPG, and around 900
7 police reservists."
8 And you also said you had no idea as to what he was referring to
9 when he said "when it is ordered"?
10 A. This clearly says the staff planned to execute it "when it is
11 ordered." I couldn't order the staff anything, nor did I ever issue an
12 order to the staff.
13 Q. Listen to the question. Listen to the question, Mr. Djordjevic.
14 A. I am listening to the question.
15 Q. Did you know who would order the staff to proceed, to implement,
16 this plan involving some 5.000 policemen?
17 A. The staff acted in accordance with the orders issued by the
18 minister, and I was not part of that process. The minister ordered the
19 staff to co-operate with the VJ in the execution of plans of which we
20 have spoken aloud here, worked out by the Pristina Corps to combat the
21 terrorists. I had no authority over the staff of any kind. I knew, at a
22 general level, what the duties of the staff were, from that decision, and
23 that's all I knew.
24 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, I want us to move quickly. Is your answer that
25 it was the minister who would order the staff? Were you aware of that?
1 A. The staff was duty-bound, in accordance with the decision of the
2 minister, to plan activities, command all forces that it had at its
3 disposal, and it reported to the minister about it. It was responsible
4 to the minister. That's what I know.
5 Q. And if we could go back to the RPOs, if you look a little bit
6 further up in this paragraph, we see him referring to the RPOs. You see:
7 "Reserve police stations in nearly all villages inhabited by
8 Serbs are very active. The service has increased its activities in
10 And later on, and this is near the end of the page in English,
11 and I think we should move on to page 2 in B/C/S, he also says:
12 "Meetings have been held with all the RPOs, and they were
13 attended by General Momcilo Stojanovic and
14 Lieutenant-Colonel Blagoje Pesic. Their work and engagement have been
15 assessed as good, aimed at protecting the people."
16 Could you see that?
17 A. Yes, I can see that.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
19 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Just about the translation or
20 interpretation actually, the transcript constantly reads reserve police
21 "stations," whereas actually this is about reserve police "squads." And
22 I believe that Mr. Stamp has also read that. But the reserve police
23 "station" has somehow made their way to the transcript several times
24 where they really should be reserve police "squad."
25 MR. STAMP:
1 Q. That's correct. It should be reserve police squad,
2 Mr. Djordjevic.
3 A. Yes, police squad. On the previous page, you said two things
4 that -- or, rather, two things are stressed. First, activities in the
5 framework of the RPOs, that is, reserve police squads; and then there are
6 the activities of the secretariat. So I would ask to you return to the
7 previous page in order to avoid misunderstandings, because you merged
8 these two things so it can be understood as --
9 Q. If we return to the first page, I read a passage near the middle
10 of that paragraph where he said:
11 "RPOs in nearly all the villages inhabited by Serbs are active.
12 The service has increased its activities in towns."
13 And at the bottom of the page in English --
14 A. There's a period here, please. These are two distinct things.
15 So there's one sentence reads RPO in nearly all villages inhabited by
16 Serbs are very active. And the other sentence reads: The service has
17 increased its activities in towns. And on the other page, what you say
18 about Momcilo Stojanovic and Pesic as members of a team, this refers to
19 the first part, the intensive activities of the RPOs. So maybe we should
20 keep that apart and then maybe comment the reserve police squads.
21 Q. Very well. We are talking about the RPOs now. Now, who is --
22 or, who was -- what was the role of Lieutenant-Colonel Pesic, in Kosovo?
23 A. If I could see the following page in Serbian. Blagoje Pesic was
24 a staff member. And, as far as I know, from those meetings, he followed
25 these logistical issues that had to do with the reserve police squads.
1 Q. Did you see the or any report that he prepared in respect to the
2 reserve police squads?
3 A. No, I haven't seen any one report. He drafted those reports for
4 the staff, and it was the staff that analysed all the activities of the
5 reserve police squads.
6 MR. STAMP: Let us look at P1055.
7 Q. Do you remember the last document General Lukic was referring to
8 Mr. Pesic and Mr. Stojanovic visiting the reserve police squads, and that
9 was at the meeting on the 17th of February. This is a document dated the
10 16th of February, the day before, and it's a report on the visit of the
11 meeting with the reserve police commander. If we look at the end,
12 just -- let's go to the end quickly. We see that it is indicated that
13 the report was made by Captain Blagoje Pesic. Not signed, but you see
14 his name there.
15 MR. STAMP: And now I'd like us to go to page 3 of the document
16 in e-court, both in the English and the B/C/S.
17 Q. You just told us that Captain Pesic followed the logistical
18 issues involved with the reserve police squads.
19 MR. STAMP: If we could look at the bottom of the page in
21 Q. And I think it's the third paragraph on your page. You see it
22 describes the meetings, and he says:
23 "The meetings were held by Major-General Momcilo Stojanovic,
24 deputy minister of the public security department, it is -- and a member
25 of the minister's staff, and Captain Blagoje Pesic, officer in charge of
1 organisation and functioning of the reserve police squads" -- it should
2 be "squads," I think; you corrected us -- "in Kosovo."
3 The police in Kosovo, you would agree with me now,
4 Mr. Djordjevic, were responsible for the organisation and functioning of
5 the reserve police squads? Not just the logistics?
6 A. For the umpteenth time I have to respond to this question. Here
7 is a report where Captain Pesic, with General Stojanovic, who held all
8 those meetings, so here is the report that they are drafting. In this
9 report, there's not a single case where a crime was committed by an RPO
10 member. Had there been a single crime, they would have put it there, and
11 the appropriate measures would have been taken against the perpetrator.
12 So I've already told you.
13 Q. Mr. Djordjevic.
14 A. Yes, please go ahead.
15 Q. I'm not yet talking about crimes. I'm just showing you this
16 document - which you say is created by Major-General Stojanovic and
17 Captain Pesic - showing you what they -- how they are designating
18 Captain Pesic a member of the MUP staff in Kosovo. And I'm suggesting to
19 you -- asking you that having seen this, do you not agree that the police
20 in Kosovo were responsible for the organisation and functioning of the
21 reserve police squads?
22 A. My understanding of the role the police here is that it was
23 preparing the reserve police squads for the defence against the
24 terrorists. And in this sense, the police was duty-bound to equip them
25 with appropriate weapons and communications equipment, to train them, and
1 to organise their defence, to set it up, the trenches, or whatever was
2 necessary for them to defend themselves. And to my mind, that was the
3 role of the police. Those were not organisational units of the MUP, in
4 which case you would have the MUP say to a squad from one village, You
5 should go to another village and perform a task there. The task of those
6 police personnel was to train those people, to enable them to defend
7 themselves against the terrorists.
8 Q. So you don't agree with what you see here in the document, that
9 Captain Pesic was the officer in charge of organisation and functioning
10 of reserve police stations? You don't agree with what they have written
12 A. Well, I agree that he was responsible for the logistics aspect,
13 to make sure that those police squads are able to respond to any
14 terrorist acts. But Blagoje Pesic could not take members of the reserve
15 police squad from one area and transfer them to another area to use them
16 as he saw fit. Their existence was related only to their village or even
17 part of their village, and their task was simply to defend themselves
18 against the terrorists.
19 MR. STAMP: Let us look at page 5 in the B/C/S. Page 7 in
21 Q. Were you informed -- this is a chart with a breakdown of the
22 weaponry involved in this programme. Were you aware that, by then, some
23 64.000 weapons had been distributed?
24 A. At this time when this report was drafted, I was in Belgrade
25 These are the obligations of the staff, and this is what the staff is
1 working on with its members. I never received this report the way I see
2 it here, or indeed in any other form or shape. So as regards these
3 issues, I was not really informed about it. I didn't know that
4 Momcilo Stojanovic was going down there to hold these meetings together
5 with Blagoje Pesic and what the agenda was. Those were not issues within
6 my purview.
7 Q. You did not know. That is your answer.
8 MR. STAMP: Let's get back to P85. If we could look at the third
9 page in English, and I think it's the last page in B/C/S. Sorry, I think
10 it's the penultimate page in Serbian.
11 Q. At this meeting, which I think you said when you were first asked
12 about it -- well, we saw it earlier, it involved all the leading members
13 of the MUP of Serbia discussing the plans, the forthcoming plans. You
14 see here one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine bullet
15 points from top -- from the bottom in English, and I think it's the same
16 in B/C/S. The Minister Stojiljkovic in your presence saying:
17 "Approach and engage volunteers carefully, linking their
18 engagement through the reserve police force when assessed as necessary."
19 We have also heard from SUP
20 of volunteers into the police force was illegal. What did the minister
21 mean when he told all of you leading police officers that?
22 A. I don't know what he meant. Here we can see what he said, and he
23 said approach and engage volunteers carefully, linking their engagement
24 through the reserve police force when we assess this to be necessary.
25 This is what he said. And it's his order, or his vision of things in
1 this respect.
2 Q. Doesn't sound like not only an illegal order, but a very, very
3 dangerous order to implement. Does it sound that way to you?
4 A. The minister is in charge of the use of the police reserve force.
5 The reserve force of the police could not be engaged or used without an
6 appropriate decision by the minister. On the eve of the war, when Serbia
7 was under tremendous pressure, this is what he said, and this is what is
8 recorded here.
9 Q. Does it sound to you, as expressed, as minuted here, to be an
10 order to do something which is illegal and also dangerous?
11 A. It was not illegal to use, to engage the reserve force. The
12 engagement of the reserve force is not illegal.
13 Q. Was it illegal to engage volunteers into the reserve force?
14 Let's not play games, this is what the minister is saying:
15 "Approach and engage volunteers carefully, linking their
16 engagement through the reserve police force when assessed as necessary."
17 Wasn't that illegal?
18 A. He spoke about this in very restrictive terms, so at the time
19 when war was imminent. He did not allow the engagement or the use of
20 volunteers as volunteers. This is what it says here. He allowed it only
21 in exceptional circumstances that, acting with care, those people who may
22 want to fight or to be engaged, involved in this, could do so through the
23 reserve police force. As soon as those persons are admitted to the
24 reserve police force, they are no longer in the status of volunteers, but
25 they become regular police or, rather --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- reserve police force, and they
3 are entitled to everything that the reserve police force has, all the
4 rights. So the volunteers were not engaged. They could be engaged in
5 exceptional circumstances, based on this order of his, and be admitted as
6 members of the reserve police force and then be engaged. And this is not
7 illegal as far as I'm concerned.
8 Q. Wasn't it people who volunteered and wanted to fight, as you put
9 it, these volunteers, weren't there procedures in place for them to be
10 engaged by the VJ, by the army, but police work was something entirely
11 different, and incorporating volunteers was illegal?
12 A. The police has the right to use its reserve force. There are
13 thousands of members of the reserve police force. Now, how the police
14 are going to use an individual, how to register him, admit him as a
15 member of the reserve force, it's a different issue. The police did not
16 admit volunteers and use them as volunteers as part of some units of that
17 sort, and they were not engaged in any other kind of work. So first
18 those persons became members of the reserve force, and then they were
19 sent to execute their tasks.
20 Q. You said, I think, that you issued a follow-up order to the
21 conclusions at this meeting. Do you recall that? That you sent an order
22 which --
23 A. Yes. It was --
24 Q. And you were shown that as well. Let's look at it.
25 MR. STAMP: P356.
1 Q. This is the order you were shown, 18th of February, 1999, your
3 MR. STAMP: If we could move to page -- to item 7.
4 Q. This is your order based on the minister's instructions about
5 volunteers. Am I correct?
6 A. This is an order to the secretariats, but this order differs from
7 the order that was presented that way at the minister’s. So the
8 secretariats are ordered to step up their operative work and to take
9 other measures in order to check and register and control the volunteer
10 and paramilitary units and their members. The essence of controlling all
11 these categories lies in the fact that those units would go to the
12 territory of Kosovo in an uncontrolled manner, and there they would loot
13 and commit other crimes. In the previous period, we have seen isolated
14 dispatches where orders were issued prohibiting the entry of such units
15 to Kosovo, and this order goes along the same lines. The purpose is to
16 prevent them from entering Kosovo where they would commit crimes. So
17 this is what this order is all about.
18 Q. But this document --
19 MR. STAMP: If you go back to the front page, the first page.
20 Q. -- is based on the minister's decisions as to how you should
21 treat these paramilitaries and volunteers.
22 A. It is correct that this dispatch followed partly from the orders
23 issued at the meeting, but also from the obligations that we had as part
24 of the general preparations for the defence of the country.
25 So the air-strikes and war were imminent, and this dispatch, in
1 fact, contains the orders to the secretariats to prepare for war. One of
2 the items is the one that we've just discussed, item 7, which deals with
3 the issue of volunteer and paramilitary units, but the essence, what this
4 is all about, is to exert control over them and to prevent them from
5 going to Kosovo where they would commit crimes.
6 Q. I want you to note, Mr. Djordjevic, that this is
7 dispatch number 312 of the 18th of February.
8 MR. STAMP: Can we look at P702.
9 Q. Probably it's a little difficult to read. This is a dispatch of
10 the minister of the 24th of March, 1999, the eve of the -- of the NATO
11 intervention and also the eve of when most of the crimes charged in this
12 indictment, in the indictment here, were committed.
13 If you read the first paragraph, and you will see that it's sent
14 to almost all the important police in the country. This is, all senior
15 police in the country. He says that it is necessary to intensify the
16 enforcement of measures that were ordered as per our dispatch number 312
17 of the 18th of February, 1999, he is referencing to the dispatch you sent
18 which he calls "our dispatch." You see that?
19 A. Yes, I can see that.
20 Q. You see item 5? It's probably difficult to read. Item 5,
21 I think, is on the second page of your copy.
22 MR. STAMP: If it could be brought up into better focus, please.
23 Q. I think that's legible. The minister instructs an
24 intensification of your order, which he calls "our order," you shall
25 register all volunteer and paramilitary units and their members and keep
1 them under control in case you might need to engage them.
2 Come now, Mr. Djordjevic, yourself and the minister were acting
3 and planning in contemplation of using volunteers and paramilitary units
4 as soon as the NATO intervention began; isn't that true?
5 A. That's not correct. In the dispatch, in my dispatch, it says
6 clearly that they should be registered and controlled. But the objective
7 was not to engage them, to use them. Here in this dispatch it says "for
8 their possible engagement." It is a dispatch that is sent directly from
9 the minister. Now, why this was ordered, I don't know. But what I do
10 know is that not a single volunteer or paramilitary unit on the order of
11 the minister as it is described here did not go to Kosovo.
12 Q. Well, when it comes to this topic, you seem very, very familiar
13 with what was going on there in Kosovo. And, you know, so many other
14 topics that I've asked you about, you know nothing about Kosovo.
15 Mr. Djordjevic, this order says "... in case you might need to
16 engage them." And he is sending this order to the leadership of the
17 police. Weren't you then aware of a plan to use volunteers and
18 paramilitaries after the NATO intervention began?
19 A. There was no plan and no one volunteer unit was deployed or used
20 in the area of Kosovo and Metohija as is said here. That is, not one
21 volunteer or paramilitary unit was used down there.
22 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, you must have been receiving reports and being
23 involved in the management of the police and their activities down there
24 for you to say that with such conviction.
25 A. Sir, that has nothing to do with it. I wasn't involved in any
1 plans regarding the plans of the police for Kosovo and Metohija, nor did
2 I issue any instructions to use any police unit that was deployed to
3 Kosovo and Metohija. I never issued instructions to either a commander
4 or the Chief of Staff or the chief of the SUP, no, sir.
5 Q. As a matter of fact, well, let me show you some other documents.
6 MR. STAMP: Let's look at P889.
7 Q. This is the 16th of February again. We can probably refer to
8 that period as a planning phase. And this is a VJ order. And please,
9 sir, if you could note the number -- reference number to the top
10 left-hand corner, it's in handwriting, 455. The 455 series, and this is
11 number 1. And it is an order for the destruction or the breaking apart
12 of forces, that is, STS
13 Let's look at -- firstly, you see -- I think we have to go to another
15 MR. STAMP: Page 4 in the English, and we have to try to work
16 together to find the appropriate page in B/C/S. Item 2. Page 3 in
17 B/C/S. Yes, I think it's here.
18 Q. It refers to:
19 "In coordinated action of the forces of MUP of the
20 Republic of Serbia
21 sector of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo. At the same time, secure
22 the state border with the republic of Albania and Macedonia
23 infiltration of the STS
24 Republic of Albania
25 facilities, communications, and control of territory."
1 You see, two paragraphs down, I don't want to have to read all of
2 it. It says:
3 "Later on, secure the passability of the major roads and full
4 control of the territory of Kosovo
5 non-Siptars to secure military facilities and communications and to
6 defend places with non-Siptar populations."
7 You see here, Mr. Djordjevic, the plan for the operations involve
8 the use of the armed Serbs in Kosovo. Does this remind you of what the
9 circumstances or what the operations were at the time? Or may I withdraw
10 that question and put it this way: Does this remind you that the
11 operations in Kosovo involved the use of armed ethnic Serbs supporting
12 the MUP and the VJ in these operations?
13 A. Yes, that's what we can read here. But these documents, which
14 I've now seen for the first time, have nothing to do with me. I haven't
15 partaken in the drafting of this document, nor do I know who drafted it
16 and under whose instructions. I suppose that they had orders from their
17 command. But the way it stands here, I have nothing whatsoever to do
18 with it.
19 Q. Can I show you another one. And this one is in reference to the
20 Joint Command.
21 MR. STAMP: If we look at P1393.
22 Q. The combat report to the 3rd Army by Major-General Lazarevic, the
23 commander of the Pristina Corps, 25th of April, 1999. If you look at
24 page 2 of the English and stay on page 1 in Serbian, in item 2.1, the
25 first paragraph of that page in English, and it's item 2.1. You can see
2 "Operations of combing the terrain and breaking up the STS
3 continue in line with the decision of the Joint Command for
4 Kosovo and Metohija."
5 And it goes on to describe what is happening further.
6 The system, the structure, involving the Joint Command
7 responsible for the -- for coordinating the activities of the VJ and the
8 MUP in these operations, remained in place during the war when these --
9 the crimes we are concerned about were committed. Does this,
10 Mr. Djordjevic, remind you of that?
11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
12 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Stamp read a
13 sentence from this document and then gives his conclusions that have
14 nothing to with the document. Please, take a look at this question. He
15 started by quoting the first sentence and then what followed was a
16 digression and some conclusions of his, and all that has nothing to do
17 with the document.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Can you rephrase your question, Mr. Stamp.
19 MR. STAMP: Very well.
20 Q. The document says, Mr. Djordjevic, that the operations shall
21 continue in line with a decision of the Joint Command. Does this not
22 remind you that during operations in Kosovo in 1999 when the crimes we
23 are concerned about -- concerned with here were committed, the
24 Joint Command was still in existence?
25 A. Well, several months before this combat report, which was drafted
1 in late April, so several months earlier, I had nothing whatsoever to do
2 with the activities down there or with the plans or combat reports. How
3 it came and that somebody used this term "Joint Command" and why they did
4 so, I cannot know. Maybe they meant "joint action," and perhaps this
5 term was coined in a haphazard fashion and then used subsequently. But
6 I'm in no way familiar with the existence of such a command down there or
7 what they're doing -- what they were doing. At that point in time, my
8 tasks were altogether different. Who wrote that and why is for that
9 person to answer. And I cannot provide and explanation for it.
10 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P969.
11 Q. Joint Command order of the 15th of April, 1999. And take note
12 the number, 455-151. And if you could go down to item 2, "Tasks of the
13 Pristina Corps":
14 "With reinforcements and the armed non-Siptar population in
15 Kosovo and Metohija, the Pristina Corps shall support MUP forces in
16 breaking up and destroying STS
17 You, General Djordjevic, you don't know about this is your
19 A. No.
20 Q. In preparing for this case, you must have seen dozens of orders
21 from the Joint Command in 1999. Do you recall seeing them?
22 A. Yes. I saw several orders of this kind with such a letterhead
23 and what was done within the Pristina Corps, yes, I did.
24 Q. If we may move on. You testified about being in Pristina on the
25 18th of April, 1999, or thereabouts, and General Pavkovic showed you a
1 document relating to the resubordination of the MUP to the VJ. You said
2 you didn't know anything about it and that was something for the
3 minister. Do you recall?
4 A. Sir, please, I said and -- what I said is recorded in the
5 transcript. So at the moment when Pavkovic called General Lukic to come
6 and see him, I went there and he showed me that paper. At the moment
7 when he showed it to me, I read it. It was one sentence, and I said that
8 we had no idea about that, that I had come from Belgrade that day. And I
9 know about the documents and all that.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.
11 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me that
12 this has become the practice on the part of Mr. Stamp to interpret -- to
13 interpret things very freely and falsely. So whenever he quotes, I would
14 ask him to quote accurately. He falsely quoted Mr. Djordjevic to have
15 said that he knows nothing about resubordination. And you all heard what
16 the accused said. So when my learned friend quotes, I do ask him to
17 quote accurately rather than retell it in such a way.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
19 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, firstly, I wasn't quoting, I was
20 summarising. And secondly, I --
21 JUDGE PARKER: The objection is that you do not summarise
22 accurately, worse than that, at times you summarise misleadingly.
23 MR. STAMP: And looking at the record of what I summarised, I
24 would submit that I summarised accurately.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Attention is particularly drawn to the sentence
1 that he said he had -- "we have no knowledge -- I beg your pardon. You
2 said you did not know anything about it, that being resubordination, and
3 that was something for the minister.
4 MR. STAMP: Well, I said to him General Pavkovic showed you a
5 document relating to resubordination of the VJ and the MUP. And you said
6 you didn't know anything about it.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Please speak into the microphone.
8 MR. STAMP: I said General Djordjevic [sic] showed you a document
9 relating to the resubordination of the MUP and the VJ, and you said you
10 didn't know anything about it, which --
11 JUDGE PARKER: The issue is, is that a fair summary of the
12 particular passage of evidence.
13 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour. I submit it is. He said he did
14 not know anything about the document.
15 JUDGE PARKER: You say "it" meant the document, not
17 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, you can see here that there may be
19 some ambiguity in what was said by Mr. Stamp. What he puts is, I think,
20 an accurate section of the evidence that Mr. Djordjevic said he knew
21 nothing about the document that dealt with resubordination.
22 Now, in the particular way the sentence is expressed, I can see
23 that it could be understood the way you understood it, that is, that he
24 knew nothing about resubordination. Mr. Stamp says he intended it to
25 mean that he knew nothing about the document that was shown to him.
1 I think, in those circumstances, it is not the case that
2 Mr. Stamp is in any way seeking to mislead the witness. But you will
3 realise, of course, Mr. Stamp, that in some of these matters which are
4 quite material, there does need to be care by you so that you are quoting
5 accurately or fairly, not necessarily precisely the words, but if you are
6 summarising, that you are doing so fairly. And there have been times
7 when you have been very loose in your reference back. It's of concern to
8 the Defence. If you could pay attention to that in future. Thank you.
9 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. If I
10 may say something more, the accused answered to that question, and he
11 himself said that it was wrong. Namely with regard to the phrasing of
12 the question. And that's why I would ask for quotations to be accurate
13 rather than to be put in such a way as to be ambiguous.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 Mr. Stamp, carry on.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
17 Q. Did you, when you returned to Belgrade, inquire as to what were
18 the reasons for the VJ to be pressing this issue of resubordination?
19 A. The dispatch of General Ojdanic which I saw at General Pavkovic's
20 office, was something that I informed the minister. And he said that he
21 would take care of it, probably with Mr. Ojdanic. And after my -- after
22 this information I gave to the minister, based on what I saw later, there
23 was never an act from the Chief of Staff sent to the minister containing
24 a request for units or organs of the intern of the MUP to be
25 resubordinated. That's all I know about.
1 Q. Well, I was asking whether or not you asked about or discovered
2 the reasons why the VJ wanted resubordination.
3 MR. STAMP: Could we look at P888. If we could just go to the
4 end to see that it is signed, or I could just tell you.
5 Q. This is an order, or this is a report by commander of the
6 3rd Army, Pavkovic, which he sent to the Supreme Command of the
7 25th of May, 1999.
8 MR. STAMP: And if we could go back to the first page in English
9 and look at paragraph 3.
10 Q. I'll just read it: He says.
11 "The security regime in the territory has not taken root in the
12 spirit of the law and on the basis of the proclaimed state of war. The
13 best example is the operation of joint check-points manned by MUP and the
14 military police units where there are frequent altercations because MUP
15 members condone or openly permit evident criminal activities and plunder
16 committed by their fellow MUP members, as well as civilians, resulting in
17 the misappropriation of a vast number of motor vehicles, technical goods,
18 and other resources from the territory of Kosovo
19 Look at paragraph 4 on the next page:
20 "It has been established beyond doubt, and we have already
21 reported on it in regular combat and other reports, that due to the
22 non-compliance with the resubordination orders, some MUP members and to a
23 considerable extent entire smaller units which operate independently on
24 the ground, are committing serious crimes against the Siptar civilian
25 population in settlements or refugee shelters - murder, rape, plunder,
1 robbery, aggravated theft, et cetera, and they then purposely attribute
2 or plan to attribute these crimes to units and individuals of the VJ."
3 Now, were you aware of these complaints being made by the
4 leadership of the VJ about the conduct of the MUP in Kosovo?
5 A. No such information has ever reached me. And I would say that on
6 the 4th of May, we attended a meeting with the president of the SRJ, that
7 is, a considerable time after the resubordination order and a month
8 and 40 days after the start of the war, and General Pavkovic had a
9 briefing, and General Lukic too, and the result of that meeting was a
10 document about good work and good results and no problem existing between
11 the police and the military was mentioned.
12 On the 10th of July when the minister organised a visit of the
13 Chief of General Staff, Mr. Ojdanic, the units of -- we heard that the
14 units of the police and the military, under very difficult conditions,
15 operated jointly to general satisfaction. So we have the opinion of the
16 Chief of General Staff and the minister that the relations were all right
17 and without any problems, but opposed to that there is this letter by
18 General Pavkovic from roughly the same time who is generally pointing out
19 some things and blaming somebody else for every one of these things.
20 There has never been any written document from the VJ that
21 arrived at the ministry, certainly it never reached me, but I'm sure that
22 it never reached the minister either.
23 Q. We'll get to the meeting of the 9th of July later on. You see
24 the last thing that General Pavkovic recommended in this letter?
25 A. The proposal of measures.
1 Q. Right. "In light of the above said and particularly the
2 consequences already in evidence which could, however, become much more
3 important, the Supreme Command should take urgent measures, falling
4 within its jurisdiction, to resubordinate the units and organs of the MUP
5 of the Republic of Serbia
6 laws and in accordance with the proclaimed state of war, or annul the
7 order on the resubordination and leave the command and commanding of the
8 forces of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
9 Ministry of the Interior staff of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
10 Kosovo through the Joint Command as has so far been the case."
11 Again, General Pavkovic it referring to the existence of the
12 Joint Command as far forward as the 25th of May, 1999?
13 A. As regards the -- what is contained in the proposal of measures
14 and what he recommends to the Supreme Command by way of some urgent
15 measures, I don't know that as of the time when this letter was
16 purportedly sent on the 25th of May until the end of the war, the
17 Supreme Command never talked to the minister to highlight those problems
18 that General Pavkovic is writing about here.
19 So the issue of reattachment or lack thereof or any other
20 allegations in this letter was never raised. Now, as to when and why
21 this letter was written, well, also this, what it says, the MUP staff
22 "through the Joint Command," what the author wanted to say is really
23 unclear to me. He should have expressed himself more clearly, what he
24 meant when he said the Joint Command.
25 Now, if I were to try and get into his mind and to interpret what
1 he wanted to say, I'm really not in a position to do that.
2 Q. Can you remember where you were on the 1st of June, 1999?
3 A. Belgrade
4 Q. We'll is it -- we'll get to that shortly.
5 MR. STAMP: Is this a convenient time, Your Honour?
6 JUDGE PARKER: It is, if you are moving on. We'll break now and
7 resume at 6.20.
8 --- Recess taken at 549 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp.
11 MR. STAMP: Could we go into private session.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 9958-9959 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 Q. When was -- sorry, I'm so sorry.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now back in open session.
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. When was Mr. Stojiljkovic removed from office by the Assembly?
6 A. I think sometime around the 10th of October, 2000.
7 Q. And you remained in your position until 2001?
8 A. Yes. But you must note that on the 5th of October, 2000, the
9 democratic changes occurred and then the government in Serbia was
10 re-organised until the new cabinet was appointed. There were three
11 co-minsters, and I was the chief of the public security department. When
12 the new cabinet was established, I was appointed one of the advisors to
13 the minister; Sreten Lukic was appointed the chief of the department.
14 Q. None of that but for the yes I asked you about. Please focus on
15 my questions and answer them directly. I say this because of the time.
16 Incidentally, you told us that you sent a letter to clarify your
17 position to a news outlet. Can you remember the date when you sent that
18 letter, the month or the year?
19 A. I really don't recall. I can't remember this time. But I think
20 that you can see from your documents when it was sent.
21 Q. If I tell you that it was in May 2004, would you disagree with
23 A. Yes, I would.
24 Q. You would disagree or can you --
25 A. I would agree.
1 Q. You said you gave somebody the letter to post for you. Did you
2 write on the envelope on the letter your --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you asked the person to post it from Moscow?
5 A. Yes. I addressed a letter, I put it in a larger envelope that
6 did not have any markings on it, he took it, and then he posted it from
8 MR. STAMP: Can we look at P -- sorry, document 05223. And that
9 is P1472.
10 Q. Is this what you wrote on the envelope?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is that the front of the envelope, the addressee, the editor
13 of the magazine that you sent it to?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And if you look at the back.
16 A. Yes, that's my handwriting.
17 Q. Is that the return address that you wrote?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You said at that time you were living in Montenegro?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you using your own name where you lived? That is, did you
22 go by the name Vlastimir Djordjevic at the place in Montenegro where you
24 A. No.
25 Q. Where was it in Montenegro
1 that you lived at?
2 A. Well, I lived in several addresses. I don't know -- well, I
3 lived in several addresses. It was not just one place of residence. I
4 moved from one to another.
5 MR. STAMP: Could we look at 05225. And that is 1474.
6 Q. You have already identified this document as your letter.
7 MR. STAMP: Let's look at page 8 of it.
8 Q. I think maybe for your purposes you want to start with the
9 paragraph -- with the last paragraph of page 7, just read that. And when
10 you are ready, you could move to page 8.
11 A. What am I supposed to read? I'm sorry.
12 Q. The last paragraph of page 7.
13 A. Minister ordered me it to issue an order to prevent -- yes, he
14 did issue those two orders that envisaged the use of fire-arms to prevent
15 the arrival of citizens to the protest rally. And later on when several
16 hundred thousand demonstrators gathered there, he issued an order to me
17 to order the liquidation of a bulldozer driver who was breaking through
18 the police cordons. He issued this order to me, and I, of course,
19 refused to obey. And then after the demonstrations --
20 Q. So these are two orders that you refused to obey? If you look at
21 page 8 now, the top of page 8 of this document. That's correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. While we are on this document, maybe I should ask one or two
24 things about it. If you look at page 7 in English and 6 in B/C/S, near
25 to the top of page 7 and just about the middle in B/C/S, you wrote:
1 "I did not know anything about civilian casualties in Kosovo and
2 Metohija at the time of the bombing, whether there were any and at which
3 locations. Nobody informed me about that, nor was it their duty to
4 inform me."
5 I think you admitted here in the course of your testimony that at
6 least you knew about the victims in Podujevo, so this statement that you
7 knew nothing about civilian casualties, which you included in your letter
8 to the Serbian people, is not true, is it?
9 A. Well, this was written several years after I had left. And in
10 the meantime, there were lots of various reports in various newspapers.
11 At that time, I wrote this fully aware of the fact that there were some
12 defects here or some elements that were based on my feeling, I may have
13 exaggerated my role here or there, but there are some inaccuracies. For
14 instance, at page 3, now that I have had a closer look at it, I see that
15 I said that the anti-terrorist activities started on the 1st of July,
16 whereas they actually started one month later. So I really, here, am --
17 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, I'm asking you about what you said, that you did
18 not know anything about any casualties. That was a deliberate
19 misrepresentation, was it not?
20 A. Please, sir, I wrote this replying to articles in the newspapers
21 there. Here, I'm giving evidence to this Trial Chamber. And what I am
22 saying here is something that's very clear. Basically --
23 Q. So what you said there -- what you said there -- and I just want
24 you to focus on that statement. What you said there is not true, and you
25 deliberately misrepresented that, isn't that so?
1 A. I didn't mention that event for -- I don't know for which reason.
2 It isn't like I did something and -- but simply I didn't show it here.
3 Q. Very well.
4 A. But it's important what's said here.
5 Q. I'm not going to ask that question again. I have to move on.
6 But you haven't answered it.
7 There's another thing I noticed in this document.
8 MR. STAMP: Let me look at page 10 in English. Sorry, page 11 in
9 English. And that is also the last part in B/C/S.
10 Q. You said you retired on the 3rd of May. And I think you are
11 telling us here that you were dismissed. Is that your evidence here,
12 that you were dismissed?
13 A. I retired. I wasn't replaced or dismissed. I retired.
14 Q. Do you remember telling this Court on two occasions, the first
15 day you testified, that you were dismissed?
16 A. I have never stated that to this Trial Chamber.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic.
18 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] We have heard another statement
19 by Mr. Stamp, and I repeat my request to him, that when he does so, he
20 should correctly quote what he is quoting and state what he is quoting.
21 He may have misunderstood some things, but this clearly says "I retired."
22 And in the direct examination, he never said that he was dismissed. He
23 was saying about his retirement, that he retired.
24 MR. STAMP: At 9398.6 of his testimony on the 1st of December,
25 line 6, he said, in answer to Mr. Djurdjic:
1 "Yes, this is a definite decision for me. It was passed by the
2 minister of interior, and it says that I was dismissed altogether on the
3 3rd of May 2001."
4 Later on, in response to another question from Mr. Djurdjic at
5 line 14:
6 "At the moment when I was dismissed from the position of the --
7 of assistant minister and when I was appointed counsellor to the
8 minister, the minister decided that I should be a member of the
9 coordinating body for south of Serbia
10 This is a different dismissal.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on please, Mr. Stamp.
12 MR. STAMP: I think there are other occasions.
13 Q. And what I think, since this objection is raised, I should put on
14 the record that you were telling this Court on that day that you were
15 never aware that your dismissal was being contemplated until the 3rd.
16 The Prosecution had put on its exhibit list to question you, your letter
17 requesting dismissal. And Mr. Djurdjic, at 9764, in light of that
18 history, asked you this question just before the end of your
20 "Thank you. Under Article 41 of the ministry of -- or rather, of
21 the Law of Internal Affairs, you went into early retirement. Did you;
22 and, if so, when did you sign the request to retire?"
23 Up until Mr. Djurdjic put those words in your mouth, most
24 probably having seen the Prosecution's list, you did not say that you
25 made a request to retire. Do you remember that?
1 A. Well, there must be a hundred questions here. The first question
2 is my dismissal from the position of assistant minister.
3 Q. Sorry, sorry, the question is this: You have already told us,
4 Mr. Djordjevic, that you never said so. So the question now is this: Do
5 you recall that you first referred to sending a letter requesting
6 retirement after Mr. Djurdjic told you that in the question that he asked
7 you? Do you remember that? You remember, the answer is yes; if you do
8 not remember, the answer is no.
9 A. Please, sir. This isn't just about yes or no. I want to repeat:
10 I worked on the 3rd of October, and I was 350 kilometres away from
12 that evening, Sreten Lukic called me to come because I was a pensioner
13 then. I come on the 4th, he gives me an application for early
14 retirement, and then I signed both the application and the decision about
15 my retirement. That's the only truth. Nothing else. So I did not, on
16 the 30th or whichever date is mentioned in the document --
17 Q. Mr. Djordjevic --
18 A. On that date, I didn't sign an application for early retirement.
19 Q. Again, you refuse to answer the question I put to you.
20 A. I am not refusing anything. Come on. Go ahead.
21 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Djurdjic, this is a matter you deal
22 with in re-examination if that is the point.
23 MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely. But it's recorded
24 wrongly in the transcript --
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Djurdjic, clearly there are minds torn about
1 this issue. We do not want to hear your account of the facts, we want to
2 hear the witness's at this point. You will have full opportunity to deal
3 with it with the witness in re-examination.
4 Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.
5 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
6 Q. In the letter to Mr. -- to the newspaper, if I can find it again.
7 MR. STAMP: 1474. Page 7 in English, page 6 in B/C/S.
8 Q. And this is on perhaps what some people would call the most
9 important issue you could cover in this letter. It's the penultimate
10 paragraph in the B/C/S and the third paragraph in the English:
11 "I first found out about the refrigerator truck with bodies in
12 the Danube
13 me -- "by the chief of Bor, SUP
14 there were several scores of bodies in refrigerator truck, and I
15 immediately proposed that the complete criminal process be conducted
17 To which you reply that there were no conditions to do so there.
18 "Immediately after that conversation, I informed the minister
19 about everything. And half an hour later, he issued an order for me --
20 order to me for the bodies to be transported to Belgrade for autopsy and
21 further criminal processing."
22 I repeat, in this letter you said:
23 "In respect to these corpses, the minister issued an order to me
24 for the bodies to be transported to Belgrade for autopsy and for further
25 criminal processing."
1 I already read to you what you said when you opened in January of
2 this year at transcript 240, page 240, and also what you said to us at
3 transcript 9721, a third version where you said that the order of the
4 minister was that after routine procedures the bodies should be buried in
5 the vicinity where found. Three accounts. But let's focus on this one
6 that you sent to the people in Serbia
7 misrepresentation of what you did after you discovered or you were told
8 about the truck with the bodies, isn't it?
9 A. I think that these things should be held apart. What was written
10 for the newspapers and another thing are the details about which I'm
11 speaking here. So then, when I was called up by the head of the SUP,
12 Golubovic, he told me that the --
13 Q. Please stop there. I do not wish and I do not ask that you go to
14 explain the history. I have read to you three different accounts. I
15 want to know -- the question is: Is the account that I just read, that
16 you wrote to the newspapers, a deliberate misrepresentation?
17 A. What I wrote for the papers is presented basically the way it
18 was. There are some details, which I didn't mention then, but I'm giving
19 evidence now about all these facts. I don't think that the most
20 important thing is what is said here, and what I wrote for the papers. I
21 haven't left out anything here. When I give an account of my actions,
22 that followed this first information. But this is an opportunity here to
23 discuss all that in detail.
24 Q. I see. If we could return to your defiance of orders that you
25 received from the minister which you didn't agree with. You recall that
1 you testified in a trial in Serbia
2 on a date in July this year? 26th of June. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. STAMP: And I think this is Exhibit 6010. Sorry,
5 65 ter number 601.
6 Q. We have it here. This is a transcript of your testimony on that
7 day, is it?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. STAMP: Let's move to page 10. I think that is page 12 in
11 Q. And you say again here that you were given the order on the
12 5th of October to shoot, or rather, to issue the order to kill the
13 excavator operator who was driving, and then:
14 "I entered into a fierce conflict with him and refused to obey
15 that order in the presence of General Zekovic. Therefore, he could issue
16 all kinds of orders, whichever he wanted, and the problem was whether
17 these tasks could be carried out or not. I found that the task I was
18 given was completely in accordance with the regulations that members of
19 the service were entitled to do, and I issued the order for this task."
20 I believe, here, what you want to say is that -- or what you are
21 saying is that you refused -- you refused to obey this order to shoot the
22 excavator operator because it was not in accordance with the regulations;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Since we are on this document, before I close it, I'll probably
1 come back to it.
2 MR. STAMP: Could we look at page 15. Another thing I noticed.
3 And page 15 in English is page 18 in B/C/S.
4 Q. In this -- in that case, Mr. Djordjevic, you were aware of your
5 obligation to tell the Court the truth, were you not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this was an investigation or a trial of persons who were
8 tried for the murder of three American citizens of Kosovo Albanian
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You are asked by the Deputy Prosecutor, and it's at page 15,
12 whether you ever met Popovic, who was one of the accused, in Kosovo or
13 elsewhere. And in your answer you say:
14 "He may have seen me, but I don't know if I saw him. I cannot be
15 sure. But I was down there in 1998, so it was possible for him to see me
16 and to meet me. In 1999 I was there only once with the minister."
17 Well, we know from your evidence here that in 1999 you were down
18 a few more times than once. And I suggest to you that when you testified
19 in June, you say -- you must have known that. Didn't you deliberately
20 misrepresent the amount of times you were in Kosovo in 1999 to the war
21 crimes court of Belgrade when you testified in June this year?
22 A. I had no reason to misrepresent that --
23 Q. No, I'm not asking you about any explanations. I will get to
24 that later. The record here says that you told them that you were there
25 only once and this was material to the issues in the trial. And I asked
1 you if that was a deliberate misrepresentation to the Belgrade court.
2 A. If I said that, I probably made a mistake. I have no reason
3 to -- not to tell that court that I was there two or three times, as many
4 times as I was.
5 Q. That is your answer.
6 MR. STAMP: It's a little bit after the time, Your Honours, I was
7 wondering if it's convenient for the Court.
8 JUDGE PARKER: I think we must draw to a close today, Mr. Stamp.
9 I know it's at the end of a day that has been tiring for both yourself
10 and the witness. Can I ask how you see your timing?
11 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I think I should be finished sometime
12 in the course of Monday. I say this -- and I do not want to get into any
13 issues with the witness, but I -- it depends on whether or not I can
14 control the response to the question. I do have a lot of material.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Stamp, we can I assist you. We've made
16 arrangements this afternoon to assist you by arranging to sit tomorrow
17 from 10.00 until 4.00.
18 MR. STAMP: I'm grateful, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: That there will be a break of an hour for lunch
20 between 1.30 and 2.30. That will give you a longer time, but it will
21 give both you and the witness a more manageable day.
22 Now, with that having been done, the Chamber expects that you
23 will be able to finish by the end of the first session on Monday, so as
24 to enable re-examination to be dealt with. If you can keep that in mind
25 as you plan tomorrow and plan over the weekend.
1 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, before the Court I rises, I'm sorry, I
2 think I left a little bit of housekeeping undone. 06010, identified by
3 the witness, to be the transcript. Could that be received in evidence.
4 JUDGE PARKER: The transcript of the evidence given, was it in
5 June or July of this year?
6 MR. STAMP: In June. 26th of June, 2009.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P1508.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I'm unclear at this moment. We have the
10 envelope in which a letter was sent to a magazine from Moscow. Do we
11 have the letter as an exhibit?
12 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: What exhibit number is the letter?
14 MR. STAMP: It's P1474.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Now, tomorrow, to
16 accommodate that different sitting time, we've got to move courts, and we
17 will be in Courtroom II tomorrow, and we commence at 10.00. We will
18 adjourn now until tomorrow.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of
21 December, 2009, at 10.00 a.m.