Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10056

 1                           Monday, 14 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

 6             MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  Thank you,

 7     Your Honours, and good morning.

 8                           WITNESS:  VLASTIMIR DJORDJEVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Djordjevic.

12        A.   Good morning.

13             MR. STAMP:  If we could bring, immediately, P137.

14        Q.   This is an order or a dispatch of the 18th of March, 1999, I

15     think signed by you.

16             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at the next page in B/C/S.  Could we

17     look at the bottom in B/C/S of this page.

18        Q.   Signed on your behalf, and it dispatches PJP personnel on

19     rotation to Kosovo.  And I think you indicated that this was the

20     classical or the standard type of dispatch, and we have seen many of

21     those in evidence.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Was this a -- was this document necessary or required before PJP

24     personnel could be sent from the SUPs in Serbia on assignment in Kosovo?

25        A.   Yes, it was required.

Page 10057

 1        Q.   And I -- well, that's out of the question.

 2             They were required to be signed by you or at least signed in the

 3     capacity of the chief of public security?

 4        A.   After the decision of the minister, this was a logistical matter.

 5     Most frequently it would be signed by me, but given that this is a

 6     routine activity, if I happened to be absent -- it simply didn't depend

 7     on my signature or on somebody else's signature.  These units had to be

 8     replaced and new units had to be sent pursuant to the decision of the

 9     minister, so this is a purely technical matter.

10        Q.   Yeah, could it be signed by anybody or in the capacity of anybody

11     but the chief of public security?

12        A.   Well, we have seen that documents like these were signed by

13     others.  They were signed by me but by others as well.  As I have told

14     you, this is a purely formal matter.  This is not a decision that

15     anything else depended upon.  This simply gave information on what

16     direction the units should take, to whom they should report, what funds

17     they were to be given.  These were just the routine instructions that

18     were normally given.

19        Q.   But I see that all of them that we have - and there are quite a

20     few of them in evidence - are signed either by you or by someone else for

21     you as chief of public security.  Is there a reason for that?

22        A.   I don't know what you have in mind when you ask "is there a

23     reason."  I don't know how to answer this.

24        Q.   Well, could any other functionary in the public security section

25     issue those dispatches or orders?

Page 10058

 1        A.   As I have said, this is not an order on activating units.  This

 2     is a purely formal matter, giving information on which unit was to go

 3     where.  It could have been signed by anybody else; but given that it was

 4     being sent to a number of secretariats, then they used my authority or

 5     somebody who was in my position.  So I happened to sign this most

 6     frequently, but there were also many cases where instead of me some other

 7     person signed it.

 8        Q.   Could we move on to look at P144.  Incidentally, before we get to

 9     this document, did the minister -- did the minister's order deploying the

10     PJP to Kosovo, was that a written order?

11        A.   Your question is not precise enough.  Pursuant to a written order

12     of deploying PJP in Kosovo -- there were actually no written orders

13     deploying PJPs in Kosovo by minister.  Minister would issue a decision

14     saying that such and such units were to be sent to Kosovo in order to

15     carry out tasks.  Following that, there would be this technical action

16     taken that units are to report to the staff, that they're placed at the

17     disposal of the staff, and that the staff could use those units pursuant

18     to the decision of the minister on establishing the staff of

19     anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo.

20        Q.   Yes, but the decision of the minister, saying that such units

21     were to be sent to Kosovo in order to carry out tasks, was that decision

22     or those decisions written decisions?

23        A.   No.  As far as I know, those were verbal orders both for

24     special police unit and for Special Anti-Terrorist Unit and for the

25     special operations unit of the state security department.

Page 10059

 1        Q.   And you cannot recall at any time these deployments being the

 2     subject of any written orders by the minister?

 3        A.   The order of the minister on establishing the staff specified

 4     that all attached units were to be placed at the disposal of the staff,

 5     that the staff planned their activities and was in charge and had the

 6     command over those activities.  Therefore, based on that decision, the

 7     minister basically authorised the staff to be in charge of all the units

 8     that had been attached and were sent there.  He did not write orders

 9     specifying that such and such a unit was sent to Kosovo and so on.  No.

10     Those orders were verbal.  However, the attachment of units to the staff

11     in Kosovo was regulated in the decision on establishing the staff in

12     Kosovo.

13        Q.   Okay.  Before you -- we could move on.  Before you we have a

14     decision transferring or terminating or a decision of the completion of

15     deployment of Mr. Milan Cankovic.  Who had been carrying out tasks -- MUP

16     staff tasks in Pristina.  This one is signed by you.  And we have seen

17     others like this.  Without going through them, apart from yourself or the

18     minister, was any other functionary in the MUP authorised to sign these

19     documents as terminating or appointing to certain positions -- well, not

20     certain positions, to positions in the MUP staff?  And since that

21     question is a little bit muddled, let me just ask it again.

22             You signed some of these orders, and I think we have seen where

23     the minister signed some of these orders.  Apart from you or the

24     minister, was any other functionary in the MUP entitled or authorised to

25     sign orders terminating or appointing MUP staff?

Page 10060

 1        A.   Nobody else except for minister could issue decisions on sending

 2     somebody to perform duties of a member of the staff in Pristina.  That

 3     type of decision could only be issued by the minister.  The minister

 4     could authorise me to issue a decision on terminating somebody's

 5     engagement in Kosovo or a decision regulating some matters of employment

 6     status relating to salary and so on.  But I could issue such decisions

 7     only pursuant to an authorisation of the minister.

 8        Q.   Yes, and --

 9        A.   And I did issue such decisions.

10        Q.   And these decisions, only you were -- and I'm just asking based

11     on those that I have seen and those which are in evidence here.  Only you

12     were authorised to sign these orders?

13        A.   Yes.  In cases where minister authorised me, then I in accordance

14     with the then-existing regulations could act in accordance with the

15     authorisation given by him.  I think that some other officials did not

16     receive that type of authorisation from the minister.

17        Q.   By what means - and I'm moving on to another topic quite quickly

18     since we are moving quickly this morning - by what means did you

19     communicate with the special unit commanders, PJP commanders, members of

20     the staff, people like Mr. Lukic and Mr. Stevanovic during March, April,

21     May of 1999?

22             I think you said earlier you had been in contact with them when

23     the telephone lines were up and running.  And you certainly wasn't --

24     well, you were certainly in contact with them during this period,

25     especially when some of the personnel were killed, you would be in touch

Page 10061

 1     with them on that score.  But by what means would you be in touch with

 2     them?

 3        A.   First of all, you have quite expanded the circle of people to

 4     whom I talked during the war in Kosovo.  I have already stated here that

 5     I didn't speak to any SUP chiefs or commanders of PJP units during the

 6     war.  I also didn't speak to the commander or the commanders of the

 7     special unit either, except in relation to Kosovo-related events.  After

 8     that, I had absolutely no contacts with any other unit commanders or any

 9     other chief of SUP.  As I have said to you, I occasionally spoke to

10     Sreten Lukic or Obrad.  I would normally speak to them if I was

11  supposed to go down to Kosovo and I would call them up and say, "I'm coming

12  down, where are we going to meet?"  This is when I went on the 18th or

13  –-that's actually when this was.  So this is how I communicated with them.

14        Q.   Okay.  Very well --

15        A.   If they had some sort of information on some members being

16     killed --

17        Q.   You would call them by what means?

18        A.   On the telephone when possible.  I had no other means of

19     communication.  If the telephone worked, then, yes, I could talk to them

20     concerning the matters that I have just described to you.

21        Q.   Did you mention just now mobile telephones?

22        A.   I didn't say that.  I said simply "by telephone if possible."  I

23     didn't say "mobile telephone."

24        Q.   Were there any types of special communications or any special

25     means of communicating with them apart from the telephones?  In case of

Page 10062

 1     emergency, for example.

 2        A.   There were experts here who answered in detail your questions --

 3        Q.   No, no.  No --

 4        A.   -- here and their task was to inform you in detail on means of

 5     communication.  I wasn't aware of any other means of communication except

 6     telephone when possible.

 7        Q.   That's what I'm asking.  I'm not asking you -- I'm asking you

 8     what you did, which is of the principal importance here.

 9             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, if I could bring up 06004.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Is this document an exhibit that's presently on

11     the screen?

12             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour, it's already exhibited.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  That's P137, is that it?

14             MR. STAMP:  No, I think it's P144 now on the screen.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

16             MR. STAMP:

17        Q.   This is the record of the testimony of Mr. Slobodan Borisavljevic

18     before the district court in Belgrade on the 2nd of March, 2004.  And

19     just to orient yourself, Slobodan Borisavljevic in 1999 was your chef de

20     cabinet; that's correct?

21        A.   I think that he was during some period of time in 1999 as well.

22     Whether there was a change in the meantime, I can't remember, but yes he

23     was.

24             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at page 8 of the English.  And I think

25     that's also page 8 of the B/C/S.

Page 10063

 1        Q.   Are you, Mr. Djordjevic, seeing a point where the deputy

 2     Prosecutor asks:

 3             "Were you getting the reports on movements of your units and

 4     their activities in Kosovo?"

 5        A.   I can't see it here.  I see that he says that there had been some

 6     reports where there was no information on the crimes.  I see that in the

 7     beginning, but I don't see what you are referring me to.

 8        Q.   I think I probably have it wrong -- is it there -- I understand

 9     it is there now.  He said:

10             "General information went through dispatches about the important

11     events, but specifically about this activities considering the war

12     circumstances everything was hindered and I think we weren't getting it.

13     Mainly that went orally, through the special communications that we had."

14             And the deputy Prosecutor asked:

15             "Who received these oral reports?"

16             And Mr. Borisavljevic said:

17             "General Djordjevic received oral reports, according to the lines

18     of work, chiefs of administrations, and from the Chief of Staff.  The

19     Chief of Staff was at that time now Colonel -- at that time General, now

20     Colonel, Sreten Lukic, who contacted directly by telephone by the

21     special" -- and I don't think the translator got it, "but contacted by

22     telephone by the special General Djordjevic."

23             And he was asked:

24             "... what did these reports refer to?"

25             And he said:

Page 10064

 1             "Well, they referred to -- concretely in the case of Kosovo and

 2     Metohija, they referred to the terrorist activity of these Albanian

 3     terrorists.  It means at the time I know that in the period from December

 4     all until the beginning of the bombardment there were especially wide and

 5     intensive activities of the Albanian terrorists."

 6             Firstly, what special communications is he referring to, do you

 7     know?

 8        A.   Throughout Serbia, there was a system of special communications

 9     which was discussed here by experts from that field.  However, during the

10     war - as they also said - due to damage of the relay systems, these

11     special systems would either work or would not work.  So that is one

12     question, and you were informed about that in detail here.

13             What Slobodan Borisavljevic is speaking of here are questions

14     that are contained in regular reports that we had occasion to see quite a

15     few times here.  So this has to do with regular information about

16     significant events and occurrences in Kosovo.  One particular piece of

17     information had to do with the activity of Albanian terrorists.

18             So there is not a single report here or a single piece of

19     information that had come here, as he says here, that I spoke on the

20     telephone.  He was in another office and then he knows that I spoke on

21     the phone -- but never mind.  In all his reports that we saw here, he

22     made no claims that I was ever informed about how and in which way units

23     were being used in anti-terrorist or combat activities.  So he is

24     speaking arbitrarily here about me speaking to them.

25             And secondly, in everything we saw him say here, there is no

Page 10065

 1     reference to combat reports from Kosovo because there weren't any.

 2        Q.   Well, he says quite specifically upon the specific question being

 3     asked that you received oral reports from General Lukic about the

 4     anti-terrorist activities in Kosovo.  Wouldn't your chef de cabinet --

 5     wouldn't your chef de cabinet be in a position to know what reports you

 6     are receiving?

 7        A.   Oh, please, please.  Could you be more precise.  Please.  He did

 8     not say that I was communicator over the telephone with Sreten Lukic

 9     about anti-terrorist activity, that is to say combat activity of the

10     units that were down there.

11        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

12        A.   What he's talking about here is --

13        Q.   Let me read what he says.

14        A.   Well, do read it.

15        Q.   Maybe there is a translation issue.  He says:

16             "General Djordjevic received oral reports according to the lines

17     of work, chiefs of the administrations, and from the Chief of Staff,

18     Chief of Staff was at the time General, now Colonel Sreten Lukic, who

19     contacted directly by telephone by the special General Djordjevic.

20             "... what did these reports refer to?"

21             And later on:

22             "Well, they referred to concretely in the case of

23     Kosovo and Metohija, they referred to the terrorist activities of these

24     Albanian terrorists ..."

25             That's what he's saying.  Sreten Lukic reported to you about

Page 10066

 1     the --

 2        A.   Oh, please.  He is saying here in principle that he received oral

 3     reports, General Djordjevic received oral reports, concerning lines of

 4     work from chiefs of administrations.

 5        Q.   And what does he say about Sreten Lukic, what does he say about

 6     that?

 7        A.   I don't even know what Slobodan Borisavljevic is saying, let

 8     alone Sreten Lukic.  So Slobodan Borisavljevic does not say here whether

 9     I spoke twice or three times during the time war was being waged there,

10     let alone could he say what it was that I discussed with Sreten Lukic.

11     So this is a very general matter.  Of course he, as the chef de cabinet,

12     knew that over the telephone I could talk.  Now, whether I did talk, how

13     many times, what it was that we discussed, that is something that the

14     chef de cabinet does not know.  He is making assumptions here.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

16        A.   And whether I spoke five times during this period of time or

17     twice, how could he know?  He is not saying that I had regular contacts

18     and that he reported to me about this and that and that I ordered him to

19     do this or that.  He was no witness of that kind.  He does not know about

20     that.  I had my own office.  The telephone was in my own office.  I had

21     my own telephone.  He doesn't know about this.  He was not present when I

22     made telephone -- my own telephone conversations.  His assumptions can be

23     whatever.

24        Q.   So I think that's the answer to my question.  The question was:

25     You are saying that your chef de cabinet does not know or would not know

Page 10067

 1     who was reporting up to you and what the reports were?  Is that what

 2     you're saying?

 3        A.   The chef de cabinet was not with me in my office when I talked to

 4     any chief of administration, either in person or over the telephone.  He

 5     was not in my office when I spoke to Sreten Lukic or Obrad Stevanovic or

 6     to the minister or any other person; he cannot testify about that.  He

 7     cannot know whether I had contacts, how many contacts, let alone about

 8     what it was that we had discussed.

 9        Q.   During the war, March, April, May, June, you -- did you become

10     aware of protests and complaints by leading figures in the international

11     community about allegations of crimes committed against civilians by the

12     security forces in Kosovo?

13             MR. STAMP:  And while we are waiting for that answer, could we

14     bring up 65 ter number 00399.

15        Q.   Did you hear of the complaints or the protests from persons in

16     the international arena about allegations of the misconduct of the

17     Serb -- of the forces of the FRY and Serbia, the police and the army, in

18     Kosovo in respect to their treatment of civilians?

19        A.   As far as I can see --

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

21        A.   -- this was sent on the 26th of March, 1999, to

22     President Milan Milutinovic.

23        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I will ask you about this shortly and you will be

24     able to say what you want.  I'm just asking you during that period,

25     March, April, May, June 1999, did you hear that there were allegations

Page 10068

 1     that the forces of the FRY and Serbia, that is the VJ and the MUP, in

 2     Kosovo were committing crimes against civilians, Kosovo Albanian

 3     civilians?

 4        A.   No letter was sent to me from these international structures.  I

 5     was not aware of any crimes.  I've already told you what it was that I

 6     knew about or these claims from international institutions.  My

 7     attention, my attention was primarily focused on the territory of Serbia

 8     outside Kosovo and Metohija.  That is what I was responsible for to the

 9     minister, and really at that time I was not in a position to read this or

10     did anyone send me personally any letter from international

11     representatives.

12        Q.   Yes.  I wanted to make a distinction here so you understand what

13     I'm asking you.  I'm not asking whether or not the crimes were committed

14     or whether you knew that crimes were committed; I'm asking you about

15     allegations that there were crimes committed against Kosovo Albanian

16     civilians in Kosovo.  Are you saying that in that period you never even

17     heard a whisper of an allegation that crimes were being committed against

18     Kosovo Albanian civilians by the Serbian security forces?

19        A.   I had no concrete knowledge, nor did I read about or did I hear

20     about any reports or letters that were sent to one address or several

21     addresses from these structures.  As for general stories, general

22     knowledge, perhaps there was something like that to the effect that

23     something was happening somewhere.  There was a war going on.  I did not

24     know anything specific or did I have the task to do anything in relation

25     to that.

Page 10069

 1             So I was not familiarised with these documents that were sent by

 2     the international community.  They were not sent to me.  And I had no

 3     opportunity to familiarise myself with what they were saying.

 4             In the territory that I was responsible for, at that period of

 5     time there was terrible destruction going on and terrible crimes were

 6     being committed.  So my --

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   -- attention was focused on what --

 9        Q.   Yes, I -- we know about the rest of Serbia and that there was a

10     war going on.  Well, let us look at this letter.  This was sent to the

11     head of the Serbian government, Mr. Milutinovic, somebody that you would

12     attend meetings in his presence.  It refers to the current reports of

13     escalating violence in Kosovo, and I'm looking at the second paragraph.

14             MR. STAMP:  And maybe, just for the record, I should say that

15     this is a letter of the 26th of March, 1999, from Louise Arbour,

16     then-Prosecutor of this Tribunal.

17        Q.   And it says:

18             "... in the light of current reports of escalating violence in

19     Kosovo, I am gravely concerned that serious violations of international

20     humanitarian law continue to be committed."

21             And she also in the last paragraph says:

22             "Meanwhile, I believe that everything must be done to deter the

23     commission of future crimes.  I therefore look to you to exercise your

24     authority over your subordinates; to exercise your leadership in order to

25     prevent the commission of further crimes ..."

Page 10070

 1             The question, Mr. Djordjevic, is not whether or not you got this

 2     letter, but were you not aware that the Prosecutor of this Tribunal had

 3     sent a letter expressing grave concern about the allegations - and I

 4     repeat the word allegations - of crimes being committed in Kosovo against

 5     Kosovo Albanian civilians?

 6        A.   First of all, what I heard in the interpretation was that

 7     Milan Milutinovic was the prime minister of Serbia.  He was not the prime

 8     minister.  He was the president of Serbia.

 9             As for Milan Milutinovic, I attended a meeting with him on the

10     4th of May, 1999, the first time, and this has to do with the

11     26th of March.  Now, who wrote to him and what was written to him -- at

12     this meeting where I was present and where Milutinovic was present, he

13     did not mention this letter at all.  Now, how am I to know what

14     representatives of the international community wrote about to him?  How

15     would I know that?  And he is not duty-bound to report to me about what

16     was being written to him, so ...

17        Q.   Well, I -- you know, you leave me in a position to infer what

18     your answer is.  Can you not answer the question directly?  Did you

19     become aware that the Prosecutor of this Tribunal had sent a letter

20     expressing grave concern about the allegations of crimes against

21     Kosovo Albanian civilians?

22        A.   What you presented to me is this letter.  I've already told you

23     that I saw Milan Milutinovic when I saw him, and that was almost two

24     months after he received this letter.  So I did not know what the

25     representatives of the international community were writing about to

Page 10071

 1     Milan Milutinovic or to others, nor were they duty-bound to report to me

 2     about what it was that they had received in terms of any indications of

 3     certain things that they were writing about.

 4        Q.   Did you --

 5        A.   So I was not aware of what was written here.

 6        Q.   Did you at any time hear from any source that there were

 7     allegations that unlawful violence was being committed against

 8     Kosovo Albanian civilians by Serbian security forces?

 9        A.   I've been telling you several times now what my duty was and what

10     my obligations were.  Please understand, every night, every day, Serbia

11     was bombed.  Serbia -- apart from Kosovo, and Kosovo was as well.  My

12     duty, my obligation, was to follow this.  That is what I was aware of.

13     That was my province of work given to me by the minister.

14        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you refuse to directly answer my questions.  I'll

15     break it down -- I'll break it down --

16        A.   What do you mean refuse?  I have been telling you.  I was not

17     aware of crimes being committed.  I did not know that the representatives

18     of the international community wrote to Milutinovic or anyone else about

19     crimes.

20        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I again make the distinction, and I want you to

21     focus on the question.  I'm not saying crimes were committed, I'm not

22     asking you if you are aware that crimes were committed.  I'm asking you

23     if you were aware that there were allegations, if you ever heard during

24     that period, March, April, May, June, allegations or that there were

25     allegations that there were these crimes being committed?

Page 10072

 1        A.   I had not heard of these allegations.

 2        Q.   Very well.  In July, August, September, October, November,

 3     December, the remainder of 1999, did you hear from any source that there

 4     were allegations that there were crimes committed against Kosovo Albanian

 5     civilians by Serbian security forces?

 6        A.   Afterwards, when all of this was over, there were some

 7     complaints, but I really did not know anything specific.  There was a war

 8     going on, and every war is accompanied by crime.  There is not a single

 9     war that does not involve crimes as well, and that falls within the

10     general context of the situation that existed.  I was aware that perhaps

11     there may have been a crime committed somewhere, like in any other war,

12     but I was not there to... I don't know what, process all crimes and

13     respond to everything.  There is not a single war without war crimes.

14     So in that very general understanding of war and consequences --

15        Q.   Yes, Mr. Djordjevic, I'm not asking you such a general question,

16     you know, that there are crimes in war, et cetera.  I'm asking you about

17     your state of mind, and I keep having to repeat these questions.  I'm

18     asking you about a more narrow thing.  Did it come to your attention

19     after the war, in the six months -- the remaining six months of 1999

20     after the war, that there were allegations that the forces of the FRY and

21     Serbia, that the VJ and the MUP forces committed crimes against

22     Kosovo Albanian civilians during the war?

23        A.   How could I know about that?  Should I base knowledge on the

24     knowledge of representatives of the international community?

25        Q.   Just for the record, you know, you haven't answered my question,

Page 10073

 1     but I'm just going to ask for the record:  In 2000 -- in the year 2000,

 2     you remained as chief of the public security department for all of 2000,

 3     even after Mr. Stojiljkovic had been sacked.  Did you in the year 2000

 4     become aware that there were allegations that Serbian security forces,

 5     that is, the VJ and the MUP, were involved in crimes against

 6     Kosovo Albanian civilians?

 7        A.   I've been telling you several times now, I did not know of any

 8     specific event that I learned of immediately after the war or later that

 9     would indicate a concrete crime and concrete perpetrators.  What I have

10     was something in very general terms, that something may have happened

11     somewhere, like anywhere else.  So I did not have any knowledge about any

12     one of these crimes that are being charged here or these localities where

13     this had happened.

14             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, the letter 00399, I tender that and ask

15     that it be received in evidence as exhibit -- and be given an exhibit

16     number.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1511.

19             JUDGE PARKER:  It's pointed out to me, Mr. Stamp, we saw but you

20     have not sought to tender a transcript of proceedings before the Belgrade

21     district court.  Did you mean to tender that or not?

22             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour, I -- having asked the witness

23     questions about it, I think it could come before the Court for its

24     consideration.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 10074

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  That -- Mr. Djurdjic.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Two things:  First of all, that

 3     transcript was not tendered, and I don't think it can be tendered.  It

 4     has to do with a statement given before a different court, and it was not

 5     confirmed by the witness.  It has to do with a person who was put on the

 6     Prosecutor's witness list, and the Prosecutor gave up on that person.  I

 7     believe that there are no grounds for having that document admitted into

 8     evidence.

 9             What Mr. Stamp presented, we said that that would be all right,

10     on the basis of your decision that the witness can say what the situation

11     was, but I don't think that this transcript can be admitted with regard

12     to a person who had not testified before this Court.  I believe that that

13     would suffice.  I wanted something else to say in relation to something

14     completely different now.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  We're right with you and ahead of you on the

16     transcript.  No need to say any more about that.  It will merely be

17     marked for identification.  It will not become an exhibit.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1512, marked

19     for identification.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Now, you had something else?

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  I don't understand

22     what Mr. Djordjevic has to do with this document.  He saw it now.  He

23     said that he had never received it and never seen it.  Now just because

24     Mr. Stamp presented it to him now it is being admitted into evidence in

25     this way.

Page 10075

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  I suspect, Mr. Djurdjic, we would be in the

 3     hundreds of documents tendered by you and the Prosecution in this case to

 4     which that comment might have been made.  It is a document of direct

 5     relevance to the case.  We know the witness says he knew nothing of it,

 6     and we will see by the end of the case whether there is anything that

 7     changes that position or not.  So it's received as an exhibit.

 8             MR. STAMP:  And while we are at it, could we -- may I ask, has it

 9     been given a number?  Thank you.

10             Could we have a look at 00398.

11        Q.   This is another letter from the Prosecutor of the Tribunal in the

12     same terms, to the President of the Federal Republic, Mr. Milosevic.

13     Were you aware at any time that the Prosecutor of these Tribunals -- of

14     this Tribunal had sent a letter expressing these grave concerns and also

15     requesting that steps be taken to deter the commission of future crimes?

16        A.   Just like I said in relation to the previous letter, I was

17     totally unaware of this letter too.

18        Q.   But did you hear about it in any way at any time?

19        A.   No, not about this letter.

20             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I also tender this document and ask

21     that it be received in evidence.  I understand that it would be -- it's a

22     matter for the Court to give it whatever weight it merits as the case

23     develops.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  At the moment, it may do nothing more than fill in

25     a minor element of historical continuity.

Page 10076

 1             MR. STAMP:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  But for the reasons indicated, it too will be

 3     received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1513.

 5             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at P42.

 6        Q.   This is a -- an indictment issued in May 1999, on the

 7     22nd of May, 1999, and it became public, I think, on the -- well, it

 8     became public on the 27th of May, 1999.  Among the indictees are the

 9     president, Milosevic, that's the federal president; the Serbian

10     president, Milutinovic; and Mr. Sainovic; Mr. Ojdanic, the head of the

11     VJ; and also Mr. Stojiljkovic.  And I remind you of your evidence,

12     Mr. Djordjevic, your office was always neighbouring Mr. Stojiljkovic's

13     office during the war.  You were always in the same place.  Did you -- or

14     when did you become aware of this indictment?

15        A.   Well, at this particular moment, I cannot give you any specific

16     date.  Probably on the date when it became public, just like every other

17     citizen, I also learned about this indictment.

18        Q.   Well, your minister, the man with whom you shared an office and

19     whose instructions you obeyed according to your testimony, is indicted

20     here.  Did you also discover at the time when you learned about it what

21     he was being indicted for?

22        A.   Well, no.  I only learned that it was relating to Kosovo, that

23     the indictment was issued for Kosovo.  However, as for the content of the

24     indictment, I really at that point in time wasn't much interested in that

25     nor did anybody tell me to what the indictment pertained.  I had no

Page 10077

 1     information about the charges that were raised against all these people

 2     named here.

 3        Q.   Well, did you obtain or try to obtain a copy of the indictment

 4     and have a look at it?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   It is interesting that you say that you were not interested in

 7     that because you have said that on the orders of the minister you

 8     participated in the concealment of bodies that you knew came from Kosovo.

 9     Now, you see that the minister is indicted and you are not interested to

10     find out what he's indicted for?  Is that what you're telling the Court?

11        A.   I'm telling you that I never had an opportunity to see a copy of

12     the indictments, to read the allegations contained therein.  I don't know

13     how it was possible for me to find out what the allegations were.  So

14     believe me that I never studied this indictment.  I only knew this

15     general indication that it related to Kosovo, but I didn't know any

16     details.

17        Q.   The -- did you know if Mr. Stojiljkovic, who was in a

18     neighbouring office, had a copy of this?

19        A.   I really didn't know that.

20        Q.   Did you ask him?

21        A.   So I didn't know.  According to the indictment and generally

22     speaking with regard to this institution, he had his own attitude and

23     views.  He wasn't interested either.  As far as I knew what the

24     indictment contained, I think that he wasn't particularly interested in

25     that.  So I know what his attitude towards the indictment was.  I don't

Page 10078

 1     know if he received a copy, whether he studied it.  I know nothing about

 2     that, apart from his general attitude towards this institution and the

 3     charges raised against him.

 4        Q.   Did you inquire of him whether he had a copy of this indictment

 5     and did you discuss the indictment with him at all?

 6        A.   No, I never discussed that with him.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems to me that

 9     after the witness had answered a question, he's being asked the same

10     thing over and over again.  We have the same answer given to the previous

11     question and to the most recent one.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Djurdjic.

13             Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

14             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Did you -- well, you said that you followed what was happening in

16     the news.  Did you follow both the international and the local news

17     media?

18        A.   First of all, the statement that I was following the media, I

19     would like to say that I received the Serbian dailies in my office and I

20     perused them.  Of course I followed the TV news.  I don't speak English,

21     and I didn't follow any international media, television, radio, or

22     whatever.  Due to my lack of foreign knowledge -- lack of knowledge of

23     foreign languages, I couldn't follow that.  I was just following the

24     media in Serbia.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the counsel please

Page 10079

 1     switch off the microphone while the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Could we have a look at 06008.

 3        Q.   This is a news report in the -- or dated the 5th of April, 1999,

 4     that we took from the archives of the "New York Times" newspaper.  Look

 5     at the second paragraph of that news report.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   It reports about Suva Reka.  It says:

 8             "... the richest man in town, who had rented his houses to

 9     international monitors of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation

10     in Europe, was executed by the Serbian police at his front door along

11     with most of his family ..."

12             If you look at page 2 in English, page 3 in the B/C/S.

13             At the bottom of page 2 in English, top of page 3 in B/C/S, a

14     witness is quoted here as saying that:

15             "She had heard from a family friend late the next day that

16     Mr. Berisha, his three brothers, and most of their families had been

17     executed a few yards from their house.

18             "Mr. Berisha's cousin ... said he watched from his window as the

19     Serbian policemen shoot Mr. Berisha, his three brothers, and two other

20     cousins a few feet from Mr. Berisha's house, sometime between noon and

21     1.00 p.m. on March 26.  He believed that the others, men, women, and

22     children, were taken around to the back and shot ..."

23             This is the Suva Reka incident.  Now, Mr. Djordjevic, now listen

24     again, I make the distinction between an allegation and knowledge that

25     the crime was committed, and I represent to you -- I put to you, that the

Page 10080

 1     world knew of these allegations of these gross crimes being committed

 2     against these people by Serbian security forces.  The world knew.  Right

 3     across the Atlantic to the tiny islands of the Caribbean, the world knew

 4     of these allegations.  Are you telling the Court that as chief of

 5     public -- chief of the police in Serbia you sat in Belgrade and did not

 6     hear even a rumour about these allegations?

 7        A.   I am telling you here and now, this is the first time that I have

 8     seen this article from "New York Times."  As for the incident in

 9     Suva Reka, I first learned about it when criminal proceedings were

10     instituted in Serbia, that is to say, I learned about it from newspapers.

11     This is all I know about Suva Reka.  So please understand, there were

12     events, there were crimes committed, but I didn't know about that.

13        Q.   Nobody briefed you that this is what people were hearing all over

14     the world, that the Serbian police was committing massacres against

15     Kosovo Albanian civilians, including women and children?  Nobody briefed

16     you about that at all?

17        A.   Please, how do you call these wars in the press?  I don't

18     remember the exact term.  But there were various things, there were

19     various articles being written.  Some crimes were never mentioned, some

20     crimes were mentioned.  But I don't know what was true and what was not

21     true.  Therefore, what the international propaganda did or whether it was

22     propaganda at all, I don't know.  I never read about this.  I told you

23     when I first heard about the Suva Reka incident.  And now when I hear

24     witnesses here giving testimony, I realise that some things had been done

25     that are totally in contravention with the understanding.  But at that

Page 10081

 1     moment, I was not aware of that.  I only heard about that once the

 2     proceedings were instituted.

 3        Q.   If we could move on.

 4             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, could this document be given an exhibit

 5     number?

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] I object to this document being

 9     admitted into evidence.  I don't see any foundation for that whatsoever.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE PARKER:  The document will be received, Mr. Stamp, because

12     of its potential relevance to the state of international knowledge and

13     international controversy.

14             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE PARKER:  It, on the evidence, does not come directly close

16     to the accused, as we see things at the moment.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1514.

18             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at 06009.

19        Q.   This is another news report taken from the archives of the

20     "New York Times" of Wednesday, the 7th of April, 1999.  And if we look at

21     page 2 in English, which is the top of page 3 in B/C/S.

22             The article reports and puts in the public domain many

23     allegations of crimes committed by Serbian forces in Kosovo.  And the

24     purpose of my asking these questions is to ask -- is inquire about your

25     knowledge of what was happening in the public domain.  It says:

Page 10082

 1             "A second refugee today confirmed an account of Serbian forces

 2     using a back hoe to dig a mass grave at Mala Krusa, one of two adjacent

 3     villages, where a half-dozen witnesses have described mass killings of

 4     roughly a hundred people."

 5             And it goes on to describe other alleged offences against

 6     civilians.  This is what was in the public domain.  The world, as I said,

 7     knew about this.  Didn't you know that the world knew about the

 8     Mala Krusa massacre?  Weren't you told about these allegations?

 9        A.   You may or may not believe me.  I heard about Mala Krusa here at

10     this Tribunal.  That was the first and the only time that I heard about

11     this.  I never heard any word about it; I never read anything about it.

12     I heard about it here once I had an opportunity to review the indictment,

13     and that is when I heard about all these crimes that are contained in the

14     indictment.

15             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I tender this one on the same basis and

16     ask that --

17             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1515.

19             MR. STAMP:

20        Q.   Did you -- among the publications that you read, did you read

21     publication "Vreme"?

22        A.   No, I never read that newspaper.

23             MR. STAMP:  If we could have a look at 06007.

24        Q.   I'm putting to you, Mr. Djordjevic, that in the Serbian press as

25     well in 1999 there were allegations of serious crimes being committed

Page 10083

 1     against Kosovo Albanian civilians.  This is the "Vreme" issue number 445

 2     of the 17th of July, 1999.  If you look to page 1, third or fourth

 3     paragraph down, it says in regard to expulsions:

 4             "In the three months of war, almost 700.000 of the Albanian

 5     residents were deported from Kosovo.  Many of their houses were burnt and

 6     looted.  The investigation by international experts who are working on

 7     several mass graves in Kosovo at the moment should show how many of them

 8     were killed and in what way."

 9             If we go to page 2 in the English, and this is the middle of

10     page 1 in the B/C/S.  Second paragraph of page 2:

11             "There is no ... doubt now:  The state military, police, and

12     paramilitary forces committed horrible crimes in Kosovo."

13             Paragraph 4:

14             "A teacher from Kosovo (mobilised into the special units during

15     the war) who came to the Ministry of Education to collect his salary,

16     said how they used to fight Albanians, how they were setting their houses

17     on fire, expelling them to the sound of the 'gusle.'  When asked why they

18     did this and what is he going to do now, he shrugged his shoulders:

19     'First of all:  It was a directive and secondly we thought they would

20     never return' ... "a partial sobering" -- well, there is a reference here

21     to the reaction of the "Serbian Orthodox church, more precisely of

22     patriarch Pavle who, during his stay in Kosovo in June," which would be

23     June of 1999, "was stunned by the extent of the crime in Pec."

24             And also the reaction of the Bishop of Raska and

25     Prizren Artemije?

Page 10084

 1             This was in the public domain in Serbia, these allegations 1999.

 2     Are you saying to this Court, Mr. Djordjevic, that you never heard about

 3     these allegations at that time?

 4        A.   As I said here, in most general terms, without any specific

 5     knowledge, as was the case in all war-torn zones, in line with this most

 6     general knowledge, it could be that crimes had happened.  But please

 7     understand that my primary responsibility and my focus was on Serbia

 8     outside of the territory of Kosovo.  So if any person got killed, either

 9     on this side or the other side, my attention was exclusively and

10     primarily focused on this area outside of Kosovo and Metohija.  I really

11     didn't have any knowledge.  I didn't read this.  I didn't have any

12     concrete knowledge about any crime.  I told you that about the heinous

13     crimes and the localities where they took place is something that I

14     learned about at this Court.

15        Q.   As chief of the police for Serbia in 1999, didn't you receive

16     intelligence briefings every day as to what was happening in all of

17     Serbia?

18        A.   Well, that's a very broad question.  We all know here what I was

19     being informed about and in what way, both from Kosovo and from the rest

20     of the territory of Serbia, for which I was responsible.  I deliberately

21     didn't want to talk about this here in order to avoid any comparison of

22     the crimes that I personally witnessed in Serbia, starting with the

23     bombing of the television -- the hospitals, the sanatoriums, et cetera.

24     I don't want to talk about it.  There were terrible victims on both

25     sides.  What I mentioned right now was something that I personally

Page 10085

 1     witnessed, and I was personally responsible for that territory.  And I

 2     never received a single piece of official information from any structures

 3     about what had happened in Kosovo.

 4        Q.   Before I move on --

 5             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, could this report in the "Vreme"

 6     magazine also be received in evidence on the same basis?

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, you repeat your objection?

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1516.

11             MR. STAMP:  Could we move quickly to 65 ter number 05225.  I'll

12     get the exhibit number shortly, and it's P1474.

13             Your Honour, I wonder if it's a convenient time because I might

14     be going into this document extensively.

15             JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

19             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             I think I will not proceed to use this document and go straight

21     to 6010, which is P1508.  And can we go straight to page 6 -- or page 5

22     in English, which is the top of page 7 in B/C/S.

23        Q.   This is part of your testimony on the 29th of June this year.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  26th of June?

25             MR. STAMP:  26th of June, I'm so sorry, 26th of June this year.

Page 10086

 1        Q.   And you were asked by the Presiding Judge about some information

 2     which he characterised as relatively insignificant that came to your

 3     attention in respect to an offence.  To quote the judge, he said:

 4             "I would like to know how you came to know that somewhere down

 5     there in Prokuplje or other some people had crossed the state border

 6     illegally, were tried and sentenced, and so on.  Do you understand?  To

 7     me, this looks like a relatively insignificant -- practically

 8     insignificant offence to be reported to someone with a very high position

 9     in the police."

10             And your response was:

11             "It was also for me a very routine kind of information, but as it

12     referred to foreign citizens, it was not actually just a small deal,

13     especially given that they were members of the Kosovo Liberation Army and

14     that this happened immediately after our return" --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Would you mind reading slowly.  Thank you.

16             MR. STAMP:

17        Q.   "-- from Kosovo.  So this was a rather routine information for

18     me, but the incident itself was not really so insignificant.  Everything

19     that was happening in the organs of the interior was for the most part

20     brought to my attention through regular channels or in some other way."

21             That is what the -- that is what you told the Court then.  The

22     question is:  Apart from the regular channels, what other ways were

23     information about what was happening in the organs of the interior

24     brought to your attention?

25        A.   For example, an official -- an officer could come to me directly

Page 10087

 1     and tell me whatever he had to say.  So there were no other special

 2     methods for me to acquire information.  When they say "regular channels,"

 3     they meant by telephone or somebody coming personally and conveying

 4     whatever it is they had to convey.

 5        Q.   Incidentally, that's you speaking, not somebody else.  You meant

 6     that somebody would come to you personally and convey to you information?

 7        A.   If there was need for that, if they had to tell me something

 8     about some regular, routine activities and tasks or if such an officer

 9     had a proposal he would come, give it to me, ask for my opinion, that

10     sort of thing.

11        Q.   Apart from the -- withdrawn.

12             Could I ask you this:  You were receiving in the regular

13     reporting from the MUP staff information as to the approximate numbers of

14     Kosovo Albanians who were crossing the border into Macedonia -- into

15     Albania and Macedonia, weren't you?

16        A.   Yes.  It wasn't me receiving.  It was everybody to whom the

17     information was addressed, the minister, various assistant ministers, and

18     I was among the list of addressees.

19        Q.   Let's just take as -- for example two of them.

20             MR. STAMP:  If we could look at P701.

21        Q.   This is the daily report from Mr. Lukic of the

22     25th of April, 1999.  We have discussed -- I think you discussed some

23     others of these when you gave evidence in chief.  There is just one part

24     I would like to go straight to.  That's page 5 of the English, the last

25     page, I think, of the B/C/S.  And if you look at item 4, it gives the

Page 10088

 1     breakdown of Kosovo Albanian citizens leaving on the 24th of April, 1999.

 2     And in the last paragraph of that section it says:

 3             "Between the 24th of March and the 24th of April, 1999, a total

 4     of 669.071 Siptars left the FRY ..."

 5             You were receiving that type of information on a daily basis,

 6     were you?

 7        A.   Yes, I would receive just like other users.  Let me explain the

 8     technical procedure to you.  So this paper that you're just putting to me

 9     would be sent to the chef de cabinet --

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

11        A.   -- yes, I would receive this information, but let me explain you

12     how.  So chef de cabinet would receive this information, this report.  He

13     would go over it, and then come to me and tell me, "This is the important

14     bit, that is the important bit."  I didn't read, myself, personally all

15     of it.  There was other information there as well about what duty

16     services reported.  So I didn't read it in the sense that I knew of every

17     sentence, no.  When chef de cabinet thought that I should be informed of

18     something, he would tell me about this; if he didn't tell me about it,

19     then I didn't know about it.  As for this particular piece of

20     information, I did know it.

21        Q.   And if we could look at another one just to make a correction.

22     This is P694, the same type of daily reporting from Mr. Lukic dated the

23     1st of May, 1999.  If we go straight to page 8 in the English, which is

24     the last page in the B/C/S.  Again, we are looking at item 4.  Similarly,

25     the breakdown is given for those Kosovo Albanians who left the territory

Page 10089

 1     on the 30th of April.

 2             Now, if we look in the last paragraph you see:

 3             "Between the 24th of April and the 30th of April ... a total of

 4     715.158 persons belonging to the Siptar national minority left the

 5     territory of the SRJ ..."

 6             Just to correct something.  This would be an error, wouldn't it,

 7     if -- it should be the 24th of March, between the 24th of March and the

 8     30th of April, 1999?

 9        A.   I wouldn't be able to correct it, but it is possible that it

10     pertains to the period from the beginning of the war, which was the

11     24th of March.  It doesn't say here how many Serbs and other

12     non-Albanians left the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, and there were a

13     lot of such people who left due to the war activities.  And it also

14     doesn't say here what were the reasons for these people to leave the

15     territory.  This report just gives numbers.

16        Q.   Okay --

17        A.   But it doesn't explain what prompted them to leave the territory.

18        Q.   As a lawyer and a police chief, Mr. Djordjevic, did you know of

19     the organisation called Human Rights Watch during 1999?

20        A.   I have heard of that organisation.

21        Q.   I was asking you about 1999.  You -- did you become aware of a

22     report they issued and circulated, and it was widely circulated, in

23     October 1998 regarding the events at the Jashari compound and in Cirez

24     and Likosane at the same time?  And I'm referring to Exhibit 741, that's

25     the 1st of October, 1998, Human Rights Watch report.

Page 10090

 1        A.   No, I'm not aware of what they wrote about the event.  I do know

 2     about the event, though.  Now, as to how they reported on it, I don't

 3     know.  I didn't read it, and I wasn't aware of their article.

 4        Q.   In the report they speak of the operations and they say that

 5     83 people were killed, including 24 women and children.  And at page 32

 6     to 33 of the report -- actually, pages 30 to 33 of the report they give

 7     specific examples of incidents where excessive force or unlawful force

 8     was used by Serbian security forces, in particular the police, resulting

 9     in the deaths of many of these people.  Were you aware at least that

10     Human Rights Watch was criticising the Serbian police in the way they

11     conducted themselves during these operations?

12        A.   I really didn't know of any evaluations or assessments of theirs

13     in relation to the operation that had been carried out.  Now, as to how

14     qualified they were to do that and what they had at that disposal to come

15     up with that evaluation, I don't know.  I don't know how they made that

16     evaluation and what their final conclusion was.

17        Q.   I think Mr. Fred Abrahams testified about how they did it, and

18     the methodology is clearly described in the Human Rights Watch report.

19     But you were shown, when you testified in chief, a document, which is

20     D424, which is a press release from the MUP dated 5th of March, 1998,

21     which you said was for the purpose of denying lies in domestic and

22     foreign media.  And I assumed from that that you were aware of these

23     reports in the domestic and foreign media about police excessive force,

24     but you didn't agree with them.

25             MR. STAMP:  If you could bring up that document, D424, which is

Page 10091

 1     the MUP press release.

 2        Q.   Just to remind you about that document and perhaps you could

 3     remember your earlier testimony.  Don't you recall, Mr. Djordjevic, that

 4     the local and foreign press at that time were making allegations that the

 5     security forces, including the police, acted excessively, resulting in

 6     loss of life of many Albanian civilians?

 7        A.   Could I see the second page of this report, please.

 8             Yes, there is another information here, and that is one of the

 9     Republic of Serbia.  It's a communique where the government speaks of the

10     attitude of the foreign media concerning this event.  In this portion

11     here, it is not indicated that any excessive force was used.  This

12     communique or report issued by the minister's cabinet.

13        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, please, this report according to you is a report

14     which denies lies in the domestic and foreign media.  My question is:

15     Having a look at this denial of the allegations in the domestic and the

16     foreign media, do you now recall --

17        A.   Could I see the first page, just the first page, please.

18        Q.   Do you now recall that the local and foreign media were making

19     allegations about the excessive force employed by the Serbian security

20     forces, including the police, during those operations at the Jashari

21     family compound and in Likosane and Cirez in early 1998?

22        A.   It says here:

23             "Ministry of the Interior denies the allegations and lies

24     launched in some domestic and foreign media about alleged torture of the

25     arrested and detained Albanians."

Page 10092

 1             That is the sentence here that was released by the minister's

 2     cabinet, in which they say that these were lies, falsehoods, and alleged

 3     torture of the arrested and detained Albanians.  They don't mention any

 4     foreign media reports or any excessive use of force.  This statement

 5     simply denies that they were arrested, detained, and tortured.

 6        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, I'm asking you about your testimony, and I'm

 7     asking you specifically about your state of mind.

 8             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 9             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours,

10     Mr. Stamp put a question and you saw what kind of a question it was.  I'm

11     not going to repeat it.  The witness replied based on the document.  He

12     gave a specific answer.  I don't mind if Mr. Stamp continues putting his

13     questions, but we have to make it known that the witness did reply on the

14     question put to him; and in it he pointed out to certain things.  I don't

15     need to repeat them.  The question was completely inappropriately

16     formulated in relation to the document based on which it was put.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Stamp.

18             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I can rephrase the question because I'm

19     just thinking about time, though I believe --

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Rephrase and move on --

21             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  -- because of time, Mr. Stamp.

23             MR. STAMP:  Indeed.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, at that time, were you not aware that the media,

25     local media or overseas media, were making allegations that the Serbian

Page 10093

 1     security forces employed excessive force in the operations at the Jashari

 2     compound and in Likosane and Cirez?

 3        A.   It's possible that some foreign media wrote about their

 4     perception of what had happened and how it had happened.  I can testify

 5     about what I know.  I don't know what foreign media wrote specifically.

 6     And given the policies that were in place at the time, it is possible

 7     that the topics were different and that they wrote differently about all

 8     of the activities of the Serbian police.  Now, for me to evaluate all of

 9     that, I couldn't do that.  I didn't read everything.  I don't know what

10     they wrote.  And they probably wrote what suited them at the time, using

11     the events.  Now, as to how objective and realistic they were at the

12     time, I really wouldn't be able to say.

13        Q.   During the summer offensive of 1999, you were aware at least that

14     members of the MUP were involved in torching, setting on fire, houses and

15     buildings belonging to Kosovo Albanian civilians, were you?  1998.

16             During the operations in 1998, the anti-terrorist operations in

17     1998, you were aware that the Serbian security forces, in particular the

18     police, some of them were engaged in torching buildings and property of

19     Kosovo Albanians, were you not?

20        A.   Now this conclusion about Serbian security forces, and in

21     particular the police, is arbitrary.  I can tell you how this came about.

22     It is true that there were instances of torching, but not in the way that

23     you describe it now.  As I have said earlier, in breaking down

24     barricades, in neutralising terrorists, in breaking down resistance, and

25     in anti-terrorist activities, yes, there were some facilities there were

Page 10094

 1     damaged and burned.  And those were the main reasons and the main cases

 2     where facilities were damaged and torched.

 3             Beyond that, in individual cases, there were also instances of

 4     damage and burning and perhaps even looting of some individual houses.

 5     But I do not know who the people who did it were.  When I was out in the

 6     field, yes, I did see that there had been such cases, and I did inform

 7     the gatherings, the people that I met, about what I had seen.  And I

 8     insisted that whenever it was established that people had burned and

 9     damaged facilities and in case -- wherever I learned that they had done

10     things that are unlawful, I insisted on something -- that something be

11     done against them.

12        Q.   Didn't you know that policemen -- I'm not asking you about any

13     specific individual, but policemen were involved in torching

14     Kosovo Albanian houses and in looting Kosovo Albanian property?

15        A.   I knew that there were such cases.  Wherever it was established

16     that this was done by a policeman, measures were taken against him for

17     looting, robbery, and burning.  I cannot say exactly how many cases there

18     were of this nature, but I know that from staff level it was insisted

19     that members of the police act in accordance with the law and

20     professionally, that is to say, all these activities that you referred to

21     just now were prohibited, looting, burning, arson, et cetera.

22             There were quite a few cases when people were dismissed from the

23     service and when disciplinary and criminal proceedings were instituted

24     against them.  So that was the position of the leadership, and the

25     commanders who were on the ground were also of the same view, that such

Page 10095

 1     negative conduct was to be prevented.  Unfortunately, it wasn't done each

 2     and every time.

 3        Q.   In 1998, were you aware of the United Nations Security Council

 4     Resolution 1160 of the 31st of March, 1998, that "condemned" - and I will

 5     quote - "the use of excessive force by the Serbian police force against

 6     civilians"?

 7        A.   Well, I did not study it in detail, but I know that there was

 8     this Resolution 1160, and I think there was 1166, where such activities

 9     are indicated.  And also there is the request for the Albanian leadership

10     to dissociate itself from terrorist activities in Kosovo and Metohija at

11     the time, that is to say that the Security Council knew then that this

12     had to do with terrorist activities, and they wanted the leadership of

13     the Albanians to dissociate themselves from that kind of thing.

14        Q.   I think you mentioned another resolution.  There's another one I

15     want to ask you about.  1199, UN Security Council Resolution 1199 of the

16     23rd of September, 1998, which expressed grave concern, in particular the

17     excessive and indiscriminate use of force by the Yugoslav security forces

18     and the VJ which have resulted in numerous civilian casualties.

19             Do you recall that one?

20        A.   I remember, I don't know the exact name of the resolution, but I

21     know that this resolution preceded all the political discussions that

22     took place afterwards aimed at preventing the escalation of further

23     activity in the territory of Kosovo by the Serb forces and also that the

24     terrorist forces there refrain from their terrorist activities.  As far

25     as I can remember at this point in time, and in I'm not mistaken, that is

Page 10096

 1     what it was all about.  And, of course, this resolution also says what

 2     you had referred to.

 3             MR. STAMP:  Just for the record, Your Honours, may I just

 4     indicate that the first resolution I referred to is P1074 and the second

 5     one is D160.

 6        Q.   Did you, Mr. Djordjevic - and I'm moving on now - at any time set

 7     up a commission or a body specifically charged with responsibility to

 8     investigate allegations of crimes committed by the police in Kosovo

 9     during 1999?

10        A.   No, I did not establish any commission or body.

11        Q.   You told us in your testimony that you did what the minister

12     ordered you to do because you thought he was threatening you.  Did you,

13     Mr. Djordjevic, mention this alleged threat in any of your previous

14     accounts before coming to Court to testify over the last two weeks, in

15     any of your previous accounts about the reasons why you participated in

16     the concealment of the bodies?

17        A.   I always said that I worked on the minister's orders and that I

18     carried out his orders.  As for the conversations I had with him, it is

19     unequivocal that, in order to have these tasks carried out, he assumes

20     that my life is threatened.  That is what I wanted to say, and that is

21     the truth.

22        Q.   Did you -- well, I represent to you - I don't want us to have to

23     go through these documents - I represent to you that in your letter in

24     2004 where you referred to obeying these instructions from the minister

25     to conceal the bodies and in your opening statement where you also

Page 10097

 1     referred to this -- to these events, you did not say that you acted

 2     partly or entirely as a result of a threat or your belief that there was

 3     a threat.  This was something that you said recently, over the last two

 4     weeks when you came to testify here.

 5        A.   Because of my activities or non-compliance with the minister's

 6     orders, I spoke about that in that letter and later.  My life was being

 7     threatened specifically by the minister and by others.  Now, whether I

 8     said everything in minute detail in that particular letter, well I know

 9     how I did this, why I did this, and why I had to do it.

10        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, are you saying that in your letter of 2004 you

11     said that you obeyed the minister's orders in respect to concealment of

12     the bodies because he threatened you?  That is not in the letter,

13     Mr. Djordjevic, so I want to know if you are telling the Court that you

14     said that in that letter.

15        A.   Please, in that letter I addressed the public.  I could not say

16     everything in detail.  I wrote that letter in revolt and some kind of

17     rage.  There were a few elementary mistakes in all of that, in this

18     letter.  It wasn't for me now to deal with each and every detail that I

19     knew.  I could have written a letter on 200 pages then, and I don't know

20     how many pages this testimony is.  My life was endangered then; it was

21     endangered after the 5th of October too.

22             Now, whether I put all of that in the right places in your view,

23     that's a different matter.  I know under which conditions I worked.  At

24     the moment when I was supposed to be ordered to use a weapon to kill

25     someone, I energetically refused to do that.  As for bodies of persons

Page 10098

 1     who had already been killed, I could no longer help these persons --

 2        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

 3        A.   -- I did take action then knowing that I was not guilty at all in

 4     respect to the death of these persons.

 5        Q.   Yes, we have heard that.  I am focusing now - and I would ask

 6     you, please, to focus on that - on this -- the evidence of yours that you

 7     were threatened by the minister.

 8             You recall, Mr. Djordjevic, that you were also asked quite

 9     extensive questions about your motivations for obeying [Realtime

10     transcript read in error "being"] the minister by your attorney when you

11     testified in chief for over a week.  And again, Mr. Djordjevic, I

12     represent to you that you did not mention this threat during your

13     testimony in chief.  And I ask you:  Why did you fail to refer to it when

14     your attorney asked you about it or asked you about the circumstances of

15     that event?

16        A.   I don't understand now.  What is it that I did say and what is it

17     that I did not say during my examination-in-chief?  Could you be more

18     specific.  I think that I did say during my examination-in-chief that I

19     did this because -- because I was ordered to do so and because I was told

20     to take care of myself in that sense.  When he told me to take care of

21     myself, it was my understanding that I was supposed to safe-guard my

22     life.  Now, that is my assumption.  Now, how you understood this, this is

23     something -- well, I cannot repeat each and every word that I said.  I

24     understood this as a most serious threat in relation to my very own life.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

Page 10099

 1             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Again, we are dealing with the

 2     problem of the way in which Mr. Stamp puts his questions, and then he

 3     gives his comment with regard to some answer, and he's not giving a

 4     specific reference as to what it was that had actually happened.  After

 5     this evidence, I am going to give the Court all the references that

 6     Mr. Stamp invoked and what is actually stated there.  But could he say

 7     specifically what he said during the examination-in-chief.  Let us not

 8     hear Mr. Stamp's conclusions.  Since this is being put to the witness,

 9     why doesn't he put to the witness his very own words, not put the

10     questions the way he is putting them, Mr. Stamp that is.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

12             MR. STAMP:  Thank you.

13        Q.   All I'm saying to you, Mr. Djordjevic, is that you failed to say

14     that you were threatened in your entire examination-in-chief.  Is there a

15     reason why you failed to explain to the Court that you felt threatened

16     and that is why you did what you did?

17        A.   I don't know what to answer to you now.  If I was ordered and

18     told to take care of myself, Take care of yourself and take care and

19     respect of what you're doing, that was the most serious threat that I

20     received.  And I took it as a most serious threat in relation to my own

21     life.  Now, how you interpret it is something -- well --

22        Q.   Very well --

23        A.   -- I took those words in that sense.

24        Q.   Very well.  Let's move to the 9th of July, 1999 -- or is it the

25     9th of -- were you at a meeting --

Page 10100

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic.

 2             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Transcript page 42; 24, 25, those

 3     were the lines.  I think it says "minister."  It says your motivation to

 4     be minister.  That is what the transcript says.

 5             MR. STAMP:  I think it's "to obey," not "to be."  "To obey the

 6     minister."  That's how it should read.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Carry on, please, Mr. Stamp.

 8             MR. STAMP:

 9        Q.   Do you recall a meeting after the war in 1999 attended by

10     representatives, senior representatives, of the MUP including yourself

11     and the minister and also of the VJ in which the events in the war was

12     reviewed or were reviewed?  And Mr. Stojiljkovic gave a report as to --

13     that included crimes committed by members of the MUP.  Do you recall that

14     meeting?

15        A.   Well, that is your totally free interpretation of what had

16     happened at that meeting.  I attended the meeting, and the minister did

17     not submit a report about what had happened during the course of the

18     war --

19        Q.   Very well --

20        A.   -- that was --

21        Q.   What was the date of this meeting?

22        A.   Well, I don't know what the date was, but it was sometime around

23     the 10th of July.  How could I know now ?  It was after the war, this

24     meeting.

25        Q.   According to Mr. Vasiljevic in his testimony - and that's at

Page 10101

 1     transcript 5725 to 6 - he said that Mr. Stojiljkovic said that only --

 2     that there were only 13 MUP members who committed crimes, and procedures

 3     had been initiated accordingly in each case.  Do you recall the minister

 4     saying that?

 5        A.   I recall that he did talk about that.  As for the number of

 6     persons or the number of crimes committed -- well, I remember that he

 7     mentioned the casualties, the killed and the wounded, and the general

 8     situation, the co-operation between the army and the police.  And, of

 9     course, he talked about the crimes that were known of at the time and

10     what kind of steps were taken against the members of the police who had

11     done that, as had been established.  So that was one of the topics.

12     There were other topics too --

13        Q.   Very well --

14        A.   -- meaning.

15        Q.   -- I just wanted to get your comment on what he said about the

16     MUP crimes, which is that he did talk about that.

17             We could move on to something else very quickly, and that is the

18     Skorpions.

19             MR. STAMP:  I think we need to go into closed session for this,

20     Your Honours.  I have to refer to the testimony of K92.

21             JUDGE PARKER:  Closed.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10102











11  Pages 10102-10104 redacted. Private session.















Page 10105

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open Session]

23             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, up to

24     page 48, line 15, Mr. Stamp never said to which statement of the

25     protected witness he was referring to and possibly what kind of page he

Page 10106

 1     is referring to, whether it from -- whether from the transcript or any

 2     other page.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  We're now in public session.

 6             MR. STAMP:

 7        Q.   Mr. Trajkovic, now, at 9111 of the transcript, he says in regard

 8     to how this unit was formed:

 9             "It seems" --

10             I'll read the entire section just for context.

11             "As far as I know, he, Milanovic, was in contact with Mr. Medic.

12     I don't know whether Mr. Medic initiated that contact or whether he

13     initiated contact with Mr. Medic.  In any case, it seems that

14     Mr. Milanovic was allowed to form a combat group so that that group could

15     assist in the defence of the country, to assist in the defence of

16     Kosovo and Metohija.  When there were subsequent discussions about groups

17     joining the SAJ, he conveyed that fact to Mr. Djordjevic, and that is how

18     it came about that that combat group was engaged through the

19     Ministry of the Interior and its reserve force."

20             Do you confirm or deny that testimony of Mr. Trajkovic?

21        A.   Of course I totally disagree with what Trajkovic said, and I also

22     disagree with what you said first about how this unit had been formed.

23     This is not about this unit, and what Trajkovic is saying is not

24     corresponding to the truth.

25        Q.   Trajkovic further said it was you who told him about these

Page 10107

 1     reserves and their qualifications.  At transcript 9090, line 17, he says:

 2             "In conversation with Mr. Djordjevic, I learned that these were

 3     experienced or partly experienced combatants who had already been at the

 4     fronts in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem."

 5             Do you confirm or deny that part of Mr. Trajkovic's testimony?

 6        A.   Of course I disagree.  First of all, I didn't spend a single day

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9  (redacted) the men that he worked with over there?  So these are his various

10     interpretations or various things depending on what he was saying in any

11     particular statement.  When it suited him, he would say that he stood by

12     it; when it didn't suit him, then he would say that that was my part and

13     my standing behind it.  It's a completely different story.  You may hear

14     it if you want.

15        Q.   No -- well, I don't -- we will come to that.  So you're saying

16     that Mr. Trajkovic was being untruthful?

17        A.   Of course he spoke untruth.

18        Q.   He testified at transcript 9091 that he wanted to do some checks

19     on the reservists, that he told you that.  Do you confirm that or deny

20     that?

21        A.   Well, please, how can I explain this to you now?  In the report

22     that he wrote himself at my request and pursuant to minister's order, it

23     says that those were the men who he knew at the time when they were

24     carrying out those tasks.  And then all of a sudden it's up -- I

25     entrusted him with the task of checking up who was capable of shooting or

Page 10108

 1     not.  I wanted to explain to you, it's not that I didn't --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   -- play any role at all, but it's not the way that Trajkovic is

 4     trying to portray it.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             MR. STAMP:  I apologise to the Court, Your Honour, I called a

 8     name which I should not have mentioned.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Page 51, line 23, should also -- there should also

10     be a redaction.

11             MR. STAMP:

12        Q.   Did you know that many of these Skorpions, these members who were

13     introduced to the SAJ, had criminal records?

14        A.   You are now talking about numerous members of Skorpions.  I don't

15     know what you're talking about.  I knew nothing about any Skorpions, nor

16     with any criminal activities that they were probably involved in.  Can

17     you understand that?  As far as I'm concerned, when the reserve forces

18     were sent down there, the Skorpions didn't exist.  I knew not of them; I

19     didn't know their names; I didn't know anything.

20        Q.   These men that you introduced to the SAJ, according to

21     Witness Vasiljevic he was able, through military intelligence, to learn

22     that many of them had criminal records.  Your evidence is that you did

23     not, at the time they were introduced, know that any of them were

24     criminals?

25        A.   Please, from the moment when Vasiljevic testified here, a few

Page 10109

 1     months later a criminal report was filed against him,

 2     or rather, an indictment was issued against him by Croatia

 3     for war crimes, for setting up some kind of camps,

 4     mistreating of prisoners, and there was an arrest warrant

 5     issued for him.

 6        Q.   That is not relevant. Mr. Djordjevic, that is merely

 7 abuse in that Mr. Vasiljevic – I just reminded you that he said that military

 8 intelligence could discover that these -- many of these men were criminals.

 9 Is it still your testimony that you were not aware in -- when they were

10 introduced, that some of them were criminals? That can be answered yes or no.

11        A.   No, I didn't know, and I didn't bring them in.

12        Q.   Mr. Trajkovic also testified at transcript 901 -- sorry, 9102 to

13     9103 that he's not sure who issued the order for redeployment of the --

14     of this group of men, but he was informed about their re-engagement

15     through you, through Djordjevic, in mid-April; is that correct, that you

16     informed him about their re-engagement?

17        A.   I think that this interpretation of yours is incorrect.  As far

18     as I can remember --

19        Q.   This is not an interpretation --

20        A.   -- when they were sent back after the first crime -- please let

21     me explain.

22        Q.   No, no.  I'm not asking for an explanation just now.  I'm saying

23     this is not an interpretation.  I read to you what Mr. Trajkovic said,

24     and I just want to know if you accept the truth of it or you say it's not

25     true.  He said he was informed about the re-engagement of the Skorpions

Page 10110

 1     by you in mid-April.

 2        A.   That's not true.  Trajkovic insisted that these members of the

 3     reserve forces be re-engagement, that he was going to guarantee for their

 4     lawful conduct, and thanks to his interest and according to minister's

 5     order were sent back to Kosovo.  We had a testimony of one of the

 6     reservists who was down there who got wounded and who enjoyed all the

 7     rights as a reservist.  He spoke about not a single crime being committed

 8     afterwards.

 9        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, the witness Stoparic, he testified to no such

10     thing.  He testified that many of the men who were involved in the

11     massacre were sent back down to Kosovo with him, except for Cvetan - and

12     this is at page T2844 of the transcript - except for Sasa Cvetan, many of

13     the men who shot the civilians in Podujevo were sent back down, and they

14     were down there many times committing crimes, clearing villages.  That's

15     his testimony.  Isn't it true that many of the men who were committing

16     crimes were sent back down there, Mr. Djordjevic?

17        A.   Well, let us please focus on a single incident and only one

18     matter.  Please do not generalise things.  What you're talking is not

19     what Stoparic spoke about this here.  He said that they were extremely

20     professional in their conduct when they were sent there for the second

21     time.  Well, who was going to be sent back again?  It was Trajkovic who

22     directly decided on that because he provided guarantees that these men

23     under his command would act impeccably, that no misdeed or crime were

24     going to be committed.  So for those who were supposed or identified as

25     those who committed crimes the first time did not go back again, and it

Page 10111

 1     was up to Trajkovic to decide who was going to be sent there or not.  It

 2     was not me who did that; it wasn't my duty at all, therefore --

 3        Q.   Well, that is not Trajkovic's testimony.  Incidentally, was the

 4     person we call K92, was he sent back?  Was he sent down to Kosovo with

 5     them when they were re-activated?

 6        A.   I don't know who this 92 is off the top of my head.

 7             MR. STAMP:  If we could go back into private session just for one

 8     moment, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he and Trajkovic

19     went after the crime committed in Podujevo to demobilise members of the

20     reserve and returned.  And I don't know that he ever went there again.

21             MR. STAMP:

22        Q.   You said at page 9709 of the transcript that it was Trajkovic who

23     proposed that K92 go down there with him to demobilise these men.  You

24     agreed with this proposition, that is to say that the two of them should

25     try to finish this in the safest possible way, that is to have them

Page 10112

 1     return their weapons and to make sure that no incidents occur.

 2             How is it that you felt safe enough to accept Mr. Trajkovic's

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I made the same mistake again.  This is

 6     the last time, I guarantee.  I apologise.

 7             JUDGE PARKER:  Redaction.

 8             MR. STAMP:

 9        Q.   It seems, based on your evidence, that it was necessary to engage

10     K92 to demobilise these men, to help Trajkovic to demobilise these men.

11     So how is it you could accept Trajkovic's guarantee about their

12     re-activation in Kosovo when K92 was not going down there to help him to

13     control these men?

14        A.   Well, you have made a total construct of this.  I told you a few

15     times that the two, Trajkovic and this protected witness, were friends;

16     and they, as it were, committed and carried out a selection of a number

17     of members of the reserve forces.  We heard here testimony that only

18     15 or 20 people with war experience had been engaged.  And Trajkovic,

19     therefore, suggested that probably the other man should join him.

20             I told him at the time, All right, go down there, and see that

21     there were no problems in the process.  But please understand, that was

22     the period of the fiercest bombing of Serbia.  I didn't care much about

23     whether 20 reservists were going to be brought back or not.  I have an

24     officer who is in charge of 100 or 200 men with such a proposition.  So I

25     really cannot -- couldn't programme each and every step for him.  He

Page 10113

 1     comes up with a proposition.  I say, All right, go there, do it the best

 2     possible way.  And he carried it out in a professional manner.  Later he

 3     told me, I need them; I will guarantee for them.  I asked him, How many?

 4     He said, 100.  I obtained an approval from the minister.  I engaged the

 5     administration in charge of sending the reservists down there.  He made

 6     the selection.  He takes charge.  And now you're holding me responsible.

 7             All right, I may be responsible, but what I know is that he

 8     provided guarantee for their re-engagement.  And I know, based on the

 9     testimony we heard here from one of the reservists, is that they carried

10     out their job extremely professionally, and they didn't commit any crime.

11     That's all I know.  And my role in all that -- and I really don't

12     understand the way you're thinking.

13             MR. STAMP:  Could we look at D442, which may I just say for the

14     record is a copy of P86 with a slight difference in the translation.

15        Q.   You said that you asked Mr. Trajkovic to prepare a report on the

16     orders of the minister.  What did he do with this report, having prepared

17     it?

18        A.   The report was submitted to me, and I delivered it to the

19     minister.

20        Q.   Did you read it before you submitted it to the minister?

21        A.   I think I did.

22        Q.   Did you ask Trajkovic about it or ask him to make any

23     corrections?  Did you discuss it with Trajkovic before sending it to the

24     minister?

25        A.   Since at one point he was wounded as well, he wrote this report

Page 10114

 1     on the basis of certain information he received from his subordinates

 2     down there.

 3        Q.   Did you --

 4        A.   -- I told him.

 5        Q.   Did you, Mr. Djordjevic, discuss it with Mr. Trajkovic before you

 6     forwarded it to the minister?

 7        A.   I issued a task to him, the first and the second time when the

 8     reservists were engaged for his need, to prepare a report that I was to

 9     forward to the minister --

10        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic --

11        A.   -- he brought the report to me.  I didn't amend it; I didn't want

12     to amend it; I didn't analyse the contents, how he wrote it, and what he

13     wrote it.  I just gave it to the minister as it is.

14        Q.   He says in the first sentence of paragraph 3:

15             "With the approval of the chief of the public security department

16     and the MUP staff in Pristina, 128 reservists were engaged and put on the

17     roster of the SAJ reservists."

18             Is that true?

19        A.   That was his information.  He knows what I had told him, and he

20     didn't know my further activities vis-à-vis minister.  When he proposed

21     that he needed the reservists and when he said that there were

22     hundred-odd men that could be used for those purposes, with this request

23     of his I approached the minister, the minister agreed with the procedure,

24     and Trajkovic knows that I told him, after I received an order from the

25     minister, Trajkovic, go ahead and work with the police administration on

Page 10115

 1     the issue of reservists.

 2        Q.   I'm not sure what your answer is --

 3        A.   So, formally speaking -- excuse me?

 4        Q.   I'm not sure what your answer is.  Is that, what I just read, the

 5     first sentence that Mr. Trajkovic wrote, is that true or not?

 6        A.   I said that it was true that I gave him permission to engage

 7     these reservists, but only after I had obtained approval.  So I couldn't

 8     provide this approval myself.  Once he came up with this proposal and

 9     said that there was so and so many reservists available for MUP, I

10     obtained a permission from the minister, the minister agreed because he

11     knew what tasks lay ahead of the SAJ, that it had been weakened and that

12     it needed assistance.  Then I told him, It's all right.  See to it to

13     engage more reservists with the police administration.

14             So this is true in the sense how it's written here, but what we

15     have here is his side of the story, his knowledge.

16        Q.   He said in the fifth paragraph, first sentence:

17             "At about 1800 hours on the 27th of March, 1999, with the

18     approval of the MUP staff and the knowledge of the chief of the

19     department, the commander of the SAJ Belgrade, Zoran Simovic, went to

20     Prolom Banja in order to take over members of the reserve forces that

21     were to be engaged."

22             Is that part true or not true, Mr. Djordjevic?

23        A.   This is not true.  He was wounded at the time, and he wrote this

24     report based on what he had received from other officers.  What they

25     conveyed to him, I don't know.  As far as I know about this unit, the

Page 10116

 1     only thing is that this unit was headed towards Kosovo, that they were

 2     holding some kind of back-up position, and that they could only go to

 3     Kosovo if the staff summoned them.  When the staff decided that there was

 4     a need for their engagement, that was what they decided to do; however, I

 5     didn't provide any approval in that sense.

 6        Q.   No, no, we're not talking about approval here.  Focus on what I'm

 7     asking and what he wrote here and gave to you.  You said in your evidence

 8     that you did not know about it.  The first time you know they were --

 9     they had joined the SAJ was when they committed the crime.  He said that

10     with your knowledge Simovic went down there, take them over.  Isn't that

11     true, that with your knowledge Simovic went down there to take them over?

12        A.   That is completely untrue.

13             MR. STAMP:  And if we could go to the next page, the next-to-last

14     paragraph.

15        Q.   Short paragraph, so I'll just read it.  He said:

16             "A need again arose for the engagement of reservists so at the

17     proposal of the SAJ commander, Zivko Trajkovic, and with the approval of

18     the staff in Pristina and the chief of the department, 108 reservists

19     were engaged under the leadership of Slobodan Medic."

20             Is that part true, especially the part referring to your approval

21     being given?

22        A.   It is true that I conveyed it, that those reservists could be

23     engaged for the SAJ.  However, I again sought from the minister

24     permission for them to be there.  Once I got this permission, I said,

25     Yes, they can be re-engaged.

Page 10117

 1             What I practically did was to pass on the minister's approval

 2     onwards.  Therefore, I didn't have any inherent authority to decide on

 3     the engagement of 108 members of the reserve forces for the requirements

 4     of the SAJ.  I was just an intermediary between the minister and

 5     Trajkovic because Trajkovic could not contact the minister directly.  The

 6     minister took a decision, I conveyed it, and you can, in a way, perceive

 7     it as some kind of my approval for their re-engagement, but that happened

 8     exclusively on Trajkovic's insistence.  It wasn't either my intention or

 9     my wish.

10        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Byrnes testified that in the time that he

11     associated with you in various meetings, you were a professional man,

12     highly professional.  A commander, a man who was obviously the commander,

13     and he was speaking especially in regard to -- or vis-à-vis Mr. Lukic.

14     That you were on top of the details, you were a top negotiator, you were

15     a man of substance.  Mr. Lukic pretty much said the same thing about you.

16     Mr. Trajkovic came and testified and he said that you were the -- I think

17     he said you were respected in your capacity as chief of the police for

18     Serbia.

19             Indeed, you testified, and we know from other testimony, that

20     after negotiations with General Clark, General Perisic, Mr. Naumann,

21     Mr. Milosevic, you were the one that they insisted on signing the

22     agreement.  That is P837.  Not even Mr. Perisic signed that one.

23     Everybody who came across you that we hear about first and then second

24     and have a high regard, a high respect for you as a professional

25     commander of the police force, the man in charge of the police force of

Page 10118

 1     Serbia.  Were you not ultimately responsible for the policemen who were

 2     engaged in anti-terrorist operations in Kosovo during the war in 1999, or

 3     do you disown them?

 4        A.   In this lengthy question, you started from complete falsehoods.

 5     As for Shaun Byrnes, he saw me once in his life, and he thinks he also

 6     saw me twice, which is not true at all.  He only saw me at negotiations,

 7  which took place there and that is not in dispute.  It wasn’t me who decided

 8    to participate in negotiations, no; it was the President of Serbia and the

 9    minister of the interior who decided that.  I had spent years and years in

10  Kosovo, and what Byrnes said was quite natural.  I knew every village, every

11   hamlet, every path and every road, and I knew the circumstances there.  But

12   far be it that I was the supreme decision-maker there.  Everybody knows who

13   was responsible for what.  When I was ordered to take part in negotiations,

14    I did; when I was ordered, Sign this, I signed it.  When others were told,

15     Go and do that, they would go and do whatever they were ordered.

16             I am repeating for the umpteenth time, not a single policeman who

17     was engaged in Kosovo in anti-terrorist activities or on the defence of

18     the country, I was not responsible for any one of them, for not a single

19     policeman.  Yes, minister could appoint me head of staff, but he would

20     previously need to release me of my duties as chief of SJB so that I

21     could take up additional duties.  And in that case, had I been head of

22     staff, then, yes, I would have been down there and I would have told you

23     loud and clear what it is that I was in charge of as head of staff in

24     Kosovo.  However, it is quite clearly defined who was responsible for

25     what.

Page 10119

 1        Q.   Very well.  I hear your answers.

 2             MR. STAMP:  Your Honours, I believe that that's the end of the

 3     cross-examination.  But since we are at the time or beyond the time, I'm

 4     wondering if the Court could take the break.  I don't have any intentions

 5     of continuing, but I would like to formally announce that on resumption.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  We will resume at 1.40.

 7             MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Does that conclude your cross-examination,

11     Mr. Stamp?

12             MR. STAMP:  Yes, Your Honours.  Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you indeed.

14             Mr. Djurdjic.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Djurdjic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Djordjevic.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   I would like to clarify something that was raised by Mr. Stamp

20     about ranks and positions.  So would you please tell me about the

21     relationship of a superior and subordinate.  Is it regulated by rank or

22     by position that he holds?

23        A.   Within the Ministry of the Interior --

24        Q.   Let me just interrupt you.  Please follow the transcript so that

25     you make appropriate breaks so that the lady who is interpreting can

Page 10120

 1     interpret everything and the court reporter can record it.

 2        A.   At the Ministry of the Interior, it is the authority of the0

 3     position that counts.  So if somebody is chief of the secretariat,

 4     regardless of the rank that that person holds, that person is superior to

 5     everybody else working there.  The same applies to the seat of the

 6     ministry, chief of a department is the most important person regardless

 7     of the rank that person holds.

 8             I can give you two examples.  For example, at the time of the

 9    appointment to the position of the chief of SUP in Belgrade, Branko Djuric

10     was first lieutenant-colonel, and following that he was a colonel and he

11     was a superior to Sreten Lukic, who was major-general at the time.

12             Also, an example from the crime investigations department.  Chief

13     of that administration at the seat of the ministry was a major-general.

14     His deputy was somebody who testified here and was a captain, but he as

15     deputy chief of the administration was superior to all

16     lieutenant-colonels, colonels, or majors who worked in the administration

17     of the crime investigations police.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now what about the relationship in a situation where

19     a minister adopts a decision?

20        A.   When one official adopts a decision or issues an order, it is

21     only he who can withdraw that order or modify it.  A subordinate officer

22     cannot issue an order modifying an order that had been previously issued

23     by a superior officer.  So I think that that situation is completely

24     clear when it comes to orders issued by officials, senior officials, at

25     the ministry.

Page 10121

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, please, when it comes to the

 2     minister's decision on establishing the staff for suppression of

 3     terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija in 1998, June of that year --

 4             MR. STAMP:  May I just intervene here.  I don't really wish to be

 5     suggesting how the re-examination should be conducted, but may I ask that

 6     counsel refer to the question or the area that he seeks -- and that is

 7     the area from cross-examination that he seeks to clarify, so as to put

 8     the question in context and assess if it is legitimate re-examination.

 9     Thank you.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Djurdjic, please carry on.  It's clear, I

11     think, that the subject matter as the subject of your present questions

12     have been in a number of respects dealt with in cross-examination.

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  The reference is page 9769,

14     line 24 and 25; and page 9770, line 1; as well as the following exhibit:

15     P1506 -- no, I apologise, P1507, MFI, which was put to the witness.

16        Q.   So my question, Mr. Djordjevic, was -- let me just see how I

17     formulated it.  Can you tell us, please, given the decision that the

18     minister adopted in June of 1998 on establishing the staff for

19     suppression of terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija, were you able to act

20     contrary to that order or issue different orders and tasks that would

21     override that initial order -- decision?

22        A.   The only modifications in relation to an order that was issued

23     could be made by the person who issued the original order, which was the

24     minister.  I was not authorised nor was I able to change a single article

25     from that decision or vary it in any way.  All of that came under the

Page 10122

 1     sole authority of the person issuing the original decision or order,

 2     which in this particular case was the minister.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we see P1506, please.  Could

 5     we see the following page, please.  Further on, please.  Further on,

 6     please.  B/C/S version we need the presidential decree on decorations.

 7        Q.   Yes, we have this presidential decree.  Mr. Djordjevic, can you

 8     tell us, please, what were the reasons given in the preamble to this

 9     presidential decree here for giving decorations?

10        A.   I think that we've covered this already, but it says here for

11     results achieved in carrying out security-related tasks aimed at

12     suppressing terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija and in defence of the

13     country from the aggression.  So the security-related tasks aimed at

14     suppressing terrorists were in 1998 and 1999 and defence of the country

15     from the aggression was in 1999.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Djordjevic, can we now turn to the second page of

17     this document.

18             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we move it to the right,

19     please, the B/C/S version.  No, one page back, please, in the B/C/S.

20     Yes, that's the one.  No, no, can you please -- either reduce or scroll

21     down.  Yes.

22        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, we see here the order of the first degree for

23     merit in the field of defence and security.  Do you recognise any of the

24     persons listed here as colonels?

25        A.   Yes, I know all of them, Maksimovic, Ivan, a colonel, he was

Page 10123

 1     engaged in 1998.  He had Belgrade detachments under him.  Gavranic, Dusan

 2     was there in 1999.  He was chief of SUP in Gnjilane.  Adamovic, Dragutin

 3     was chief of Djakovica SUP in 1998, then he retired.  Gradimir Zekavica

 4     was chief of SUP in Prizren.  He retired on the 31st of December, 1998.

 5     He was a retiree in 1999.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the MFI document

 8     P1507.  Page 41, please.  I think that's in the English version, 41.

 9     Could we now scroll down, please.  We need the lower part.

10        Q.   In order to be of assistance to those who will be looking at it,

11     the SL initials in black letters, can you tell us, please, this

12     person - and this is Mr. Sreten Lukic - in the interview that he gave,

13     these words of his, to which period of time do they pertain?  Do you see

14     what I'm referring to?

15        A.   Here he speaks of 1998.

16        Q.   And what does it say here in his reply?  Can you see that?

17        A.   Practically from mid-July and all the way up until late September

18     or early October in Pristina in addition to me there were constantly

19     chief of department, Mr. Djordjevic, and Obrad Stevanovic as assistant

20     minister and commander of PJP present.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the previous

23     page -- or rather, Your Honours, I need instructions from you.  Should I

24     now ask that this page or this portion of the page also be marked for

25     identification or not?  Or is it enough what Mr. Stamp has already done?

Page 10124

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  I think this additional page should be marked as

 2     well, Mr. Djurdjic.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sorry, I misunderstood.  It is already part of

 5     that which is marked.  You haven't gone beyond what is marked for

 6     identification.  Thank you.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  It's on that

 8     page, but it wasn't put to Mr. Djordjevic in cross-examination.  This

 9     portion wasn't put to him, this portion of the page, that's why I'm

10     asking.  And I just put it to him.

11             And could we now see page 40, please.

12        Q.   We can see, now, at the bottom --

13             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] If we can scroll down just a bit

14     to the end of the page.

15        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, at the bottom of the page, the person who was

16     interviewed -- or rather, tell me, please, what did the person who was

17     interviewed talk about?

18        A.   He replied to the question that was put to him by saying the

19     staff has -- practically it had -- it has, and that's what the task was,

20     to co-ordinate, plan, and direct organisational units, that is to say

21     secretariats and attached units, number one in suppressing or preventing

22     terrorism.

23        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, words of Mr. Adamovic were put to you concerning

24     a meeting that you attended where some sort of a plan was presented in

25     the latter part of July 1998.  Can you tell me, please, what plan was

Page 10125

 1     discussed at that meeting?

 2        A.   It's not -- or rather, no plan was presented at that meeting;

 3     rather, they conveyed an order of the minister to the chiefs of

 4     secretariats and told them that the global plans for suppression of

 5     terrorism had been adopted and that police with its units in

 6     co-ordination with the army was tasked -- or rather, would have the task

 7     to carry out anti-terrorist actions aimed at unblocking the roads and so

 8     on.

 9             The officials were told in most general terms that in the

10     following period they would be engaged in implementing the plan -- the

11     global plan on suppression of terrorism; however, the plan was never

12     presented to them.  They were simply told, they were informed, that this

13     would be done and that they would work in accordance to other plans that

14     would be developed based on the global plan.

15        Q.   Thank you.  After this meeting that you referred to just now and

16     that you told us about, did you ever issue any kind of direct order to

17     any police unit concerning their engagement in anti-terrorist activities

18     that had been planned?

19        A.   No.  I think that sufficient explanation has been provided as to

20     how plan-based documents were prepared for individual actions; that is to

21     say I did not take part in the adoption of any decision or any order to

22     any unit, any police unit.  So all activities of the attached police

23     units and the sent police units, as well as the secretariats, were issued

24     by the staff.  It is the staff that planned their activities, issued

25     orders, checked what they were doing, et cetera.  I have already

Page 10126

 1     explained my role in detail during the examination-in-chief and the

 2     cross-examination.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Djordjevic, you told us here that the

 4     Special Anti-Terrorist Unit was established as an internal unit of the

 5     Ministry of the Interior.  Could you please tell us what your

 6     responsibility actually was in relation to that unit.

 7        A.   I just have to say, as I've already noted, that this unit was

 8     related to the police department that I headed in the 1980s.  After that,

 9     Radovan Stojicic, the commander of that unit, was appointed chief of the

10     RJB, and at the same time he was deputy minister.  On that basis, as the

11     former commander of the special unit, he practically linked the unit to

12     himself.

13             After he got killed and after I became acting chief and then

14     chief of the RJB, I continued that tradition, if I can put it that way,

15     vis-à-vis the special unit.  That is to say that I had the obligation of

16     having the unit make special proposals to me as the chief in respect of

17     what they needed, primarily in terms of material and financial resources

18     for support in carrying out training.  My entire role boiled down to

19     that, as I have already said.  The engagement of the units, though, was

20     within the power of the minister.  So I as head of the RJB could not

21     engage part of that unit for a particular assignment until a decision on

22     that was made by the minister.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever command the SAJ unit in the period of

24     1998/1999?

25        A.   No, never.  I did not give them any tasks either.

Page 10127

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Djordjevic, who decided that the

 2     Special Anti-Terrorist Unit should be engaged in Kosovo and Metohija

 3     during the course of 1998 and 1999?

 4        A.   The decision about that and also about the engagement of other

 5     units, that is to say PJPs and the unit for special operations of the

 6     state security department, was made by the minister.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  During the engagement of the police units in

 8     Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and 1999, including the SAJ, who planned the

 9     tasks and issued orders to these units?

10        A.   It was only the staff that issued orders to them concerning what

11     their tasks would be on the basis of the decision made by the minister

12     related to the establishment of the staff for carrying out anti-terrorist

13     actions.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P1474 now.

16        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, this is a letter that you sent to

17     "Nedeljni Telegraf" and that the Prosecutor showed you.  Mr. Stamp did

18     not let you explain why it was that you wrote this letter.

19        A.   Very often, the media wrote about one and the same events.

20     Things were being written and re-written in terms of what I actually did

21     do up to a degree, but many things were just fabrications.  So I decided

22     to explain my role in 1998 and 1999.  I was aware of the fact that

23     several years had gone by and that I won't be very specific with regard

24     to certain things, but it's not that I was defending myself before a

25     court of law then.  So it's not that I had to explain it in the most

Page 10128

 1     precise way possible.  I wanted to put things in general terms, but I did

 2     not keep silent about my role or my activity in 1998 or 1999.  Perhaps

 3     there were some imprecisions there or perhaps things that I thought at

 4     that moment were not of relevance.  But -- well, my wish was in a way to

 5     respond to all the things that had been written about me, primarily those

 6     that were bad.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 4 in

 9     English and page 3 in B/C/S.  If we could just scroll down a bit in the

10     B/C/S and perhaps the English version too.  Yes, let's see the bottom as

11     well.  No, no.  In English it is on the top actually, that particular

12     section.

13        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, can you see the B/C/S version, the second

14     paragraph from the bottom?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Let me ask you something.  You said here that the minister had

17     issued a decision, that the public security forces should be commanded

18     and controlled by the PJP commander, Lieutenant-General Obrad Stevanovic,

19     Major-General Sreten Lukic, and Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic.

20     Major-General Sreten Lukic was the Chief of Staff.  Could you explain

21     this particular portion of your letter?

22        A.   In essence, that is what I said a few moments ago.  I said this

23     rather imprecisely, but I did not keep silent about my own role or the

24     role of Obrad Stevanovic.  I mentioned that Sreten Lukic was the

25     Chief of Staff.  We saw what his obligations were, and in that respect we

Page 10129

 1     saw what his role was.  And we also saw that it was his obligation to act

 2     on orders as he had been ordered by the decision, that is.  We also

 3     elaborated in detail what my role was and what the role of

 4     Obrad Stevanovic was in Kosovo in 1998.

 5        Q.   Yes.  But you state here that General Stevanovic at the time was

 6     the commander of the PJPs.

 7        A.   Well, that's the imprecision too.  He was not the PJP commander;

 8     he was assistant minister.  He acted on orders from the minister.  And

 9     previously, he was both commander of the special units and chief of the

10     administration, and that is why the minister decided that he should be

11     there too because he knew the people, he knew the territory.  So as there

12     was not a single security-related task that was more important at that

13     time, the minister wanted all of us to be down there and to help out.

14     Practically, in the activities that were being carried out on behalf of

15     the ministry down there.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can I have page 6 in English and

18     page 5 in B/C/S now.

19        Q.   We see the year 1999 over here, Mr. Djordjevic; isn't that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And now look at the second paragraph where it says "for the head

22     of staff."

23        A.   I cannot find that.

24        Q.   Do you see the year 1999?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10130

 1        Q.   Now look at that paragraph up there -- rather, the second

 2     paragraph, not the first one.  There is this sentence that starts

 3     somewhere around the middle, and it says:

 4             "The minister appointed General Sreten Lukic as head of staff."

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And then the next sentence.

 7        A.   "He also decided that the special police unit in the AP of

 8     Kosovo and Metohija be commanded by its commander General Obrad

 9     Stevanovic" -- well, that is that imprecision again, the one that

10     deviates from everything else that we have said so far.  So it was the

11     staff that was in charge of all the deployed and attached units, the

12     PJPs, the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit, and there was the unit for special

13     operations of the state security department.  So again, it's this

14     imprecision of mine in this particular document.

15        Q.   Thank you.  In 1998 while you were in Kosovo and Metohija, did

16     you hear of the existence of a command of the PJPs?

17        A.   No.  There was only the staff that practically planned and

18     organised the work of all the units that had been sent down there.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear in 1998 of the existence in Pristina of

20     a commander of the PJPs who would be in Pristina and issue orders to

21     those units?

22        A.   No.  These units were only being issued by the MUP staff.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Djordjevic --

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Or rather, could we now have

25     page 7 in English and page 6 of the B/C/S version.

Page 10131

 1        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you have this section about civilian victims in

 2     the area of Kosovo and Metohija.  Can you find that section?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Have you found that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You say here:

 7       "As for civilian victims in the territory of the autonomous province of

 8     Kosovo and Metohija during the time of bombing, I did not know anything."

 9             Can you tell us what it was that you wrote about here.

10        A.   Well, in the printed media what was stated was that these were

11     civilian victims from Kosovo that were transferred to the territory of

12     Serbia, that is the story that was bandied about, and that is what I

13     responded to here.  And I said that the only crime that I was aware of

14     was the crime in Podujevo.  I had been informed about that, and I also

15     knew what the organs in charge did, both vis-à-vis the victims and the

16     perpetrators.  That crime was not dealt with by the press, and I was not

17     being accused of anything in that way.  So that is all what I said in

18     this respect.  By then the proceedings were over in Serbia, and it was a

19     well-known fact who had committed the crime and how.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now see

22     Exhibit P1226.

23        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, this document which was presented to you by

24     Mr. Stamp and I would only ask you to comment this last paragraph in this

25     report.

Page 10132

 1        A.   The last paragraph reads that -- that is to say that the

 2     Pristina Corps commander is asking the army commander and says that:

 3             "In view of the above, please work out in more detail the

 4     engagement of the PrK units in the implementation of the plan."

 5             In other words, the commander of the Pristina Corps couldn't act

 6     on anyone's orders other than the orders of his superior, which in this

 7     case was the 3rd Army commander.  For that reason, he's asking him in

 8     accordance with the global plan to allow and to provide more precise

 9     instructions and guidance on the use of units of the Pristina Corps in

10     the implementation of the plan.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see Exhibit P1227.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness's other

14     microphone be switched on, please.

15             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, what we have here now is another letter sent by

17     the Pristina Corps commander to the 3rd Army command on the

18     23rd of July, 1998.  Can we please look at the second page of this

19     document and the last paragraph on that page.

20        A.   Here again we have the same situation in which the Pristina Corps

21     commander is asking approval for the use of units according to the global

22     plan from the 3rd Army commander, i.e., his superior officer.  And that

23     was the principle to applied to each and every engagement of units that

24     took place in 1998 as well as the preparation of plans.  Everything was

25     based on the general or the global plan; however, for each action the

Page 10133

 1     Pristina Corps commander had to obtain approval from his superior

 2     officer.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now please have Exhibit D323.

 4             Mr. Djordjevic, this is a document dated 31st July, 1998, sent by

 5     the Pristina Corps commander to the command of the 3rd Army.  I'm

 6     interested only in the second paragraph of this letter.  Please take a

 7     look at it and tell us what this is all about.

 8        A.   Probably the corps commander had certain limitations and

 9     restrictions imposed previously by the orders of the 3rd Army command

10     that were in force.  Therefore, he is asking for these orders to be

11     modified or rendered invalid, which will more closely define the

12     obligations of the corps.  This is another situation that educates how

13     things were working in the army and what was the relationship between the

14     corps and the army.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at

17     Exhibit D424.

18        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, here is a document dated the 1st of August, 1998,

19     sent by the commander of the Pristina Corps from the forward command post

20     of the 3rd Army.  Can you please explain to us item 2, last paragraph.

21        A.   I know that the 3rd Army had a forward command post in Pristina

22     where the corps commander, General Pavkovic, received from that forward

23     command post precise orders relating to the use of the corps forces.  So

24     this is how I perceive this, as another request sent to the 3rd Army,

25     that is to say his request and approval to continue operations against

Page 10134

 1     the terrorist forces according to plan.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at

 4     Exhibit D340.  Can we please look at page 2 in English and that should

 5     also be page 2 in B/C/S.

 6        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, can you please comment on item 1.4.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, before you begin your

 8     answer, I would like to say that this document is dated the 2nd of

 9     October, 1998, which represents an analysis of the implementation of

10     tasks in Kosovo and Metohija and the forward command post of the 3rd

11     Army.

12        Q.   Please, can you now answer my question.

13        A.   In this letter it says that the command of the corps forces

14     engaged in securing the state border and in the area of the IKM, which is

15     the forward command post of the Pristina Corps in Djakovica.  I spoke

16     about this earlier, and that means that the use of forces in the vicinity

17     of the border was in charge of this IKM, whereas the command over the

18     entire forces of the army in the area of Kosovo and Metohija, the forward

19     command post of the army in Pristina was in charge since 27th of July.

20             So based on this, I knew that there was an IK M in Pristina as

21     well.  According to this letter, the command over the overall forces of

22     the 3rd Army, including the corps forces, the forward command post of the

23     army in Pristina was in charge.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now look at page 7

25     in English and page 6 in B/C/S.

Page 10135

 1        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, let's look at point 4.3, proposed measures.  I'm

 2     interested in bullet point number 3, which starts that "Whenever units of

 3     the MUP are engaged ..."

 4        A.   Well, this is a proposal for measures to be implemented by the

 5     IKM of the 3rd Army in Pristina.  It says that whenever units of MUP

 6     of -- whenever more units of the MUP are engaged together with the army,

 7     in the future -- that is to say the army or Pristina Corps, in the future

 8     an organ shall be appointed to co-ordinate the activities of all MUP

 9     forces.  This is a proposal for measures that I'm not familiar with

10     because it was well-known who was responsible for all MUP forces in

11     Kosovo and Metohija.  Therefore, I don't understand this proposal for

12     these measures to be undertaken.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Djordjevic, we spoke about co-ordinating

14     meetings held during the implementation of the global plan in the summer

15     of 1998.  Can you tell me, among the army representatives, who attended

16     these meetings?

17        A.   These meetings were always attended by the commander of the

18     Pristina Corps, General Pavkovic, and also on a regular basis the

19     then-Colonel Djakovic who later became general.  I think that the

20     commander of the 3rd Army attended, but very rarely.  I think he only

21     came a few times and the Chief of Staff Lazarevic attended once or twice.

22     It is possible that someone accompanied the army command, but as far as

23     army is concerned, these are the people who attended these meetings.

24             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have

25     Exhibit P886, page 132 in English and 137 in B/C/S.

Page 10136

 1             Your Honours, can I give the accused a hard copy of this

 2     document?

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.

 4             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Although the Prosecutor's copy is

 5     available as well --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need.  I have this copy

 7     from the Prosecution.

 8             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So the date here is 21st of October, 1998?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, we see here in the introductory note the

12     absentees.  Is your name among them?

13        A.   Those who are absent are Minic, Matkovic, and Lukic.  So

14     according to this document it seems that I was present.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 141 in

17     B/C/S and 135 in English.

18        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, this is now minutes of the meeting of the

19     22nd October, 1998.  Is your name here listed as one of the absentees?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Djordjevic, in the examination-in-chief - and I

22     also think that you mentioned that during the cross-examination - your

23     father died during the October negotiations.  Can you tell me exactly

24     when was it that your father died.

25        A.   That was on the 20th of October, at around 9.00 p.m. is when I

Page 10137

 1     received this information.  At the time, I was in negotiations relating

 2     to these agreements.  So on the evening of the 20th he died, and on the

 3     21st of October I transported his body from Belgrade where he died to

 4     Vladicin Han, or rather, to our village.  On the 22nd we buried him in

 5     Vladicin Han.  After that, I went back to re-join the negotiations.  I

 6     think it was on the 23rd of October.

 7        Q.   Just tell us the year, please.

 8        A.   1998.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at

11     Exhibit P87.  We still haven't got the English version.

12        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, what we have here is minutes of the meeting of

13     the operations inter-departmental staff for the suppression of terrorism

14     in Kosovo and Metohija.  In the preamble, can you tell us when this

15     meeting took place?

16        A.   It took place on the 29th of October, 1998, at the

17     Beli Dvor palace.

18        Q.   And when was this document compiled?  Can you see that in the

19     heading?

20        A.   It says the 2nd of November, 1998.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 3 in the

23     English version and also in the B/C/S version.

24        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you see here at the very bottom we have a -- this

25     underlined title, and then the paragraph right above it.  Would you

Page 10138

 1     please read it and tell us.

 2        A.   It says here:

 3             "Pursuant to the decision adopted at the 5th Session of the

 4     Supreme Defence Council held on the 9th of June, 1998, pursuant to the

 5     Law on the Army, the Law on the Defence, and the roles of service of the

 6     Yugoslav Army, a plan to suppress terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija was

 7     drawn up, which provided for the engagement of units of the Serbian MUP

 8     and the Army of Yugoslavia."

 9             This is what I have said earlier.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 7 of the

12     English version, the same page in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, see here we have item 2, item 1 and item 2.

14     Would you please read and comment on this portion that pertains to good

15     organisation.

16        A.   I think that Pavkovic speaks here.  I think that he briefed on

17     the implementation of the plan, and he says that:

18             "Well-organised co-ordinated action and co-operation between the

19     MUP and VJ units and other factors and organs of authority during the

20     conduct of combat operations."

21             Basically that this entire good organisation and co-ordinated

22     action and co-operation was something that was a feature of the

23     implementation of this plan.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did anybody here in this meeting brief as a head of

25     that co-ordination body, and you were at this meeting.  So did anybody do

Page 10139

 1     that?

 2        A.   No.  General Pavkovic on behalf of the Pristina Corps gave his

 3     briefing and he also did it in the capacity of the author of this plan.

 4     He spoke of the implementation of the plan in general terms.  And then

 5     after him, General Lukic briefed on the obligations of the MUP and some

 6     basic indicators of the activities of this staff concerning these tasks.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And did any of the politicians brief in their

 8     capacity as leaders or heads of that co-ordination body?

 9        A.   In principle, there were two or three meetings prior to that and

10     then in this one too.  The briefing followed the established routine.

11     Pavkovic for Pristina Corps, Lukic on behalf of the Pristina staff; and

12     if any of the politicians wanted to give any remarks, they could do so,

13     about what was going on down there, about their general observations.

14     But never did they do that as heads of command, as chairman of command,

15     or in any other similar capacity.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see P668, please.

18        Q.   Let me just inform you that these are the minutes from the

19     meeting of the MUP staff in Pristina on the 28th of July, 1998.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 4 of the

21     English version, please.  I think that it's page 2 in the Serbian

22     version.  Next page of the B/C/S version, please -- no, no, the English

23     version is fine.

24        Q.   In the English version, in the second paragraph, we see that

25     minister takes the floor for the second time.  And then you have it in

Page 10140

 1     the beginning of the third paragraph, Mr. Djordjevic.  Just please look

 2     at what it says here in that paragraph:

 3             Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic:  "'We have a plan ...'"  and then

 4     on.

 5        A.   Yes.  I did not attend this meeting, but one can see that

 6     Minister Stojiljkovic says "We have a plan."  And then he asks the head

 7     of the staff whether everything went according to the plan and in

 8     co-ordination with the Army of Yugoslavia.  This was three days after the

 9     beginning of activities, and the minister is inquiring about the

10     co-ordination with the army.  He's not inquiring about other matters,

11     just the co-ordination.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Djordjevic, tell us, please, members of reserve

13     police squads, RPOs, were they on the payroll of the MUP?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, what tasks did members of the RPO discharged

16     professionally?

17        A.   Those were villagers, locals, from that village.  So they were

18     farmers and it's possible that some of them held jobs in some companies

19     too.  That is to say they had their jobs outside of the police and the

20     army.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You told us that reserve policemen could also be

22     members of reserve police squads, RPOs.  Can you explain this, please.

23        A.   Yes, they could become members of RPOs as locals from that

24     village, as residents of that village.  And only in that territory, only

25     for the defence of their village, could they be members of an RPO; just

Page 10141

 1     as certain members of the Army of Yugoslavia from that village could also

 2     become members of that RPO.  But it could be also anybody else, just

 3     regular, normal citizens who were not from that -- who were neither

 4     members of the police or the army.

 5        Q.   When members of reserve forces were not engaged as such, did they

 6     have the status of authorised officials?

 7        A.   No.  The status of authorised officials and everything that

 8     carries with it in terms of entitlements is something that they could get

 9     only if they became members of a regular MUP unit.

10        Q.   Thank you.  When members of reserve forces were not engaged as

11     such and they were members of reserve police squads, RPOs, do they have

12     the same rights as members of regular police structures?

13        A.   They have no rights similar to those that members of the ministry

14     have.  They, just like other residents of that village, are engaged in

15     the defence of their village.  They have no obligations or rights of MUP

16     authorised officials or anything of that sort.  They are simply people

17     who are engaged in the defence of their village.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And when these persons are engaged in reserve MUP

19     forces, when they're mobilised, in addition to having status of

20     authorised officials, do they -- are they also entitled to other rights

21     as other members of regular MUP forces?

22        A.   They are entitled to a salary, and they also are entitled to

23     everything else that authorised officials are entitled to when they carry

24     out their regular duties, but only when they're engaged in police units.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In case of mobilisation, what do members of RPO,

Page 10142

 1     reserve police squads, do?

 2        A.   They respond to a call-up issued, be it by the police or by the

 3     army, depending on where they are listed as reserve forces members; they

 4     go to their respective units; and their engagement in an RPO ceases at

 5     that point.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P1504 -- 1054.

 8        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, what we have here is a document of the

 9     Kosovska Mitrovica SUP which was sent to the ministry staff in Pristina

10     on the 1st of July, 1998.  And here in several places, wherever there are

11     item numbers, 1, 2, 3, 4, regardless of the location to which it

12     pertains -- but just read out to us, please, under item 1 what it says

13     here.

14        A.   It says here:

15             "Reserve police squad Ibarska Slatina."

16        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us, are police stations mentioned

17     anywhere in this sentence?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to show you

21     this document as an illustration due to the translation into English,

22     where police stations are mentioned [In English] reserve police branch

23     stations.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Djordjevic.

25             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Now could we have P886 once again,

Page 10143

 1     please.  Page 55 in the English version and page 56 in the B/C/S version,

 2     please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, this portion here, the presentation by Mr. Minic,

 4     do you see that?  This is the meeting held on the 20th of August, 1998.

 5     Have you found it?

 6        A.   Yes, I see that.

 7        Q.   Have you found Mr. Minic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I wanted to ask you whether you ever received any report in

10     relation to the meetings mentioned here?

11        A.   I don't understand your question.

12        Q.   Do you see where these brackets have been placed?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you ever receive a report about the meetings that were held

15     in these villages and what was happening in these villages?

16        A.   Ah, that's what you mean.  No, I never received any minutes or

17     reports.

18        Q.   Thank you.  From July 1998 up until October 1998, did you receive

19     any report about the activity of the RPOs?

20        A.   No, no.  It was the staff that dealt with this activity, and it

21     was the staff that ordered what measures should be taken.  And they also

22     received reports from secretariats.

23        Q.   Thank you.  As for reports on the activity of reserve police

24     squads, did you receive them from October 1998 until the end of the

25     war, 1999?

Page 10144

 1        A.   I never received a single report with regard to this matter.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Djordjevic, in relation to the corpses, did you

 3     issue any task to Mr. Bogdan Lipovac?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In relation to the corpses, did you issue any task to

 6     Mr. Dragan Pasanovic?

 7        A.   No.  I explained here in detail what all the persons were that I

 8     contacted in this respect.  I explained all of that in great detail here.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Are you aware of any activity of theirs in relation

10     to the corpses?

11        A.   I don't know whether and on which basis and upon whose

12     orders they were engaged with regard to these questions.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us the following:  During the war, did

14     you attend any meeting with the president of the Federal Republic of

15     Yugoslavia?

16        A.   During the war, there was this one meeting on the 4th of May.

17     That was the only meeting that I attended.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us where this meeting was held?

19        A.   I think that this meeting was held in Tolstojeva -- near

20     Tolstojeva Street because that is where the club of Members of Parliament

21     is.  It's a building near that building.  I don't know whose building it

22     is.  I don't know that to this day or what building, but at any rate on

23     these premises in Tolstojeva Street.

24        Q.   Thank you.  During the cross-examination on Friday, Mr. Stamp put

25     a question to you.  I don't want to interpret the question, so I'm going

Page 10145

 1     to quote it from page 73, lines 23 through 75, and lines 1 through 3 on

 2     page 74.  Unfortunately I'm working with the working version, the

 3     LiveNote.  The question is:

 4             "Did you not have any knowledge at the time when you planned the

 5     defence of the country that there had been a toughening of stances on the

 6     part of some persons from the leadership of the country that included

 7     expulsion of the Kosovo Albanian population from Kosovo as a solution of

 8     the Kosovo problem?  Did you not have knowledge of the fact that many

 9     persons in the leadership expressed these views?"

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the actual

11     transcript.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Please respond to this question.

14        A.   I don't know why I did not answer this question because there was

15     no reason for me not to answer it.  It is possible -- well, I remember

16     now that it was probably during that footage of the rally of the

17     Serb Radical Party.  I think it was then.  And I focused on the question

18     pertaining to the leader of that political party and his speech at the

19     rally of his own party.  So I'm not taking into account what that person

20     said in parliament or the meeting of his political party.  I did not hear

21     from a single politician of any intention or of any plan or of any

22     activity or of anyone who was supposed to carry out that plan if there

23     was any such thing in relation to the expulsion of Albanians from

24     Kosovo and Metohija.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 10146

 1             JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time do you think,

 2     Mr. Djurdjic?

 3             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll be very brief,

 4     Your Honour, during the next session.

 5             JUDGE PARKER:  I think an opportunity for you to reflect might be

 6     useful during the break so that you can be sure you've covered

 7     everything.

 8             We will adjourn now and resume at 3.40.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 3.13 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 3.42 p.m.

11             JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Djurdjic.

12             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Djordjevic, you told us that, to the best of your knowledge

14     during 1998 and 1999, volunteer units or paramilitary units were not sent

15     to Kosovo and Metohija.  Could you please tell us how come you know that?

16        A.   I was familiar with the way in which volunteers were sent through

17     the Army of Yugoslavia.  Not a single voluntary paramilitary or

18     para-police unit was sent through the police there.  I would have known

19     that because the police administration worked with all the police units

20     that were being sent.  So had there been any activity in this respect

21     from the level of the ministry, I would have been informed about it

22     through the administration.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You told us that you knew about this because it was

24     the police administration that dealt with that.  Tell us, please, for

25     which units did the police administration implement the minister's

Page 10147

 1     decision on the engagement of those units?

 2        A.   They worked on logistics and sending the reservists of the PJPs

 3     who were engaged in accordance with the minister's order.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us who decided that you should take part

 5     in the October negotiations in 1998?

 6        A.   I've already said that several times.  It was

 7     President Milutinovic and Minister Stojiljkovic who decided that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I put this question to you for today's transcript, so

 9     that we would regulate that.

10             Mr. Djordjevic, after the crimes that were committed by the

11     reservists in Podujevo on the 28th of March, 1998, could you please tell

12     me where this unit was returned?

13        A.   That unit -- immediately after the crime -- or rather, these

14     members of the unit were immediately returned to the locality where they

15     were stationed before they went to the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

16     This was decided by the staff.  So it was in Prolom Banja where the

17     police administration had provided accommodation for them until the staff

18     decided on their attachment to the Special Anti-Terrorist Unit.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Although you've already said this, but is

20     Prolom Banja in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

21        A.   Prolom Banja is about 15 or 20 kilometres outside Kosovo, that is

22     to say it's in the territory of Serbia.

23        Q.   Thank you.  When was demobilisation supposed to be carried out,

24     and when was this returned unit -- or rather, when were the members of

25     the reserve force supposed to be returned?  Where did Mr. Trajkovic go

Page 10148

 1     and the protected witness?  I don't want to mention his name.

 2        A.   They went -- well, first of all, Trajkovic knew where the unit

 3     was and he went there.  I think that he first contacted the OUP in that

 4     area, and then they carried out the job that they went there to carry

 5     out.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Where did they actually go?  Tell us what the name of

 7     that particular location is.

 8        A.   That was the OUP of Kursumlija, the department of the interior in

 9     Kursumlija, that is to say Kursumlija on whose territory is Prolom Banja

10     as well.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And after that where did they go?

12        A.   After Kursumlija, after they returned their weapons - I don't

13     know how the services in charge handled this - everyone of them went to

14     their own homes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  The protected witness, to the best of your knowledge,

16     was he ever in Kosovo and Metohija during the war?

17        A.   I do not know of him being in Kosovo and Metohija at all.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would have no

20     further questions for the accused, and I would, in this way, complete my

21     re-direct.

22             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much.  You really meant it that

23     you'd be quick, didn't you.  Thank you.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25                           Questioned by the Court:

Page 10149

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Djordjevic, I would like to ask you two

 2     questions.  One is related to inter-organisational structures in the MUP.

 3     We saw several decisions by the minister, signed by the minister, about

 4     different topics.  If a minister, your minister, signed any decision, who

 5     was drafting it?

 6        A.   All decisions are drafted by the joint services administration,

 7     and they submit that to the minister.  As for personnel appointments and

 8     as for this particular decision too - I don't know which one you have in

 9     mind, actually - but, anyway, these decisions are written up at the

10     appropriate administrations within the ministry.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And who drafted the decisions you signed,

12     yourself, or on behalf of the -- and with the authority of the

13     minister Stojiljkovic?

14        A.   Those decisions were also drafted by those administrations.  So

15     there would be the basic decision, and then there would be an auxiliary

16     decision from me; and it is these decisions -- these administrations that

17     drafted these decisions, status-related decisions, they would include my

18     signature, and I would in effect sign these decisions.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In those cases, this special unit was drafting

20     decisions for the minister, was it shown to you before it was put to the

21     minister?

22        A.   No.  The special unit was not drafting any decisions, if that's

23     what you mean.  They were not in a position to draft any decisions.  They

24     would just send requests to me if they needed some equipment or

25     something.  They did not write up any decisions.

Page 10150

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you didn't understand my question or I

 2     put it to you in a wrong manner.  I would like to know if -- you

 3     mentioned the decision, the basic decision, and then were drafted by

 4     those administrations, that means by your unit or the state security unit

 5     or by -- what do you mean by "those administrations"?

 6             Can you explain where is this joint services administration

 7     located in the ministry, in the MUP, under which -- under whose

 8     authority?

 9        A.   Well, all administrations are in the public security according to

10     the systemisation -- actually, there were a few organisational units

11     outside the RJB, this is the institute for security, the different

12     schools, et cetera.  But all the other administrations are within public

13     security.  They are fully at the disposal of the minister, and it is the

14     minister who issues orders as to what each and every administration is

15     supposed to prepare and when.  But, formally, they are within public

16     security.  And there was an assistant minister who was answerable to the

17     minister for these particular matters, say the joint services and other

18     such affairs.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means a person who is drafting a decision

20     for the minister is member of this joint services administration and then

21     is sending this draft to whom first and then to the minister, or is it

22     going directly to the minister without having reviewed by any other

23     person?

24        A.   The minister gives them instructions what to do through his

25     assistant who is in charge of these affairs, and then the decision is

Page 10151

 1     given to the minister for signing.  If he has any remarks or objections,

 2     he then demands it to be amended, whether it be a decision or a letter or

 3     anything that he has to sign.  So he either signs it immediately or maybe

 4     thereafter.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said by the responsible assistant.  Do you

 6     mean assistant minister or assistant?

 7        A.   Assistant minister.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means before a draft is submitted to the

 9     minister, you saw it in advance; and then it comes back from the minister

10     with a signature and you are -- it's your duty to carry out the -- or to

11     send it to the relevant institutions?

12        A.   The minister had a number of assistants, another three in

13     addition to myself.  To whom of these ministers he would entrust this

14     material, this particular assistant would prepare the material.  And

15     according to the minister's requests, the document drafted in that manner

16     would be presented to the minister, and then it was up to him to decide

17     whether to sign it immediately or to request any amendments to be made.

18     That was the role of the assistant minister.  Sometimes he may have

19     entrusted me with a request to prepare a letter, and then I, by making

20     use of these administrations within the departments, I would prepare

21     them.  And he would treat these documents and these drafts in the same

22     manner that he treated other such affairs according to how he saw fit.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

24             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Djordjevic, I want to take you back to the

25     proceedings of last week Friday, the 11th.  Now, in answer to a question

Page 10152

 1     by the Prosecutor -- actually, he asked you whether you had attended a

 2     co-ordinating meeting with Mr. Milutinovic, Pavkovic, Lukic, and others

 3     at Belgrade on the 5th of January, 1999.  And you replied:

 4             "I may have attended that meeting."

 5             Now, do you recollect this?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember saying that.

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, could you be a bit more specific.  Did you or

 8     did you not attend that meeting in your capacity as chief of public

 9     security department?

10        A.   I attended this meeting because according to the minister's order

11     we were invited and we came to the meeting.  Yes --

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  So you did --

13        A.   -- one might say as the chief of the public security department.

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  Okay, thank you.

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  If I may, I want to refer, now, to the meeting on

17     the 29th of October, 1998, at -- chaired by Mr. Milosevic.  And you said

18     that you did not attend that meeting as a member of the

19     inter-departmental staff.  Do you recollect that?  You didn't attend that

20     meeting as a member of the inter-departmental staff.

21        A.   Yes, I remember what I said.  I said that I was present, but I

22     said that I was not familiar with that body and with that name of that

23     body --

24             JUDGE BAIRD:  [Previous translation continues] ...

25        A.   -- I didn't know who set up this body and told us that:  You are

Page 10153

 1     going to be members of this body, and it's going to be called

 2     inter-departmental staff.

 3             JUDGE BAIRD:  All right.  Now, my question to you is:  In what

 4     capacity did you attend that meeting?

 5        A.   I could only have attended this meeting as the head of the

 6     department based on the invitation from the minister, and I always

 7     attended such meetings in my official capacity, that is, the chief of the

 8     public security department.

 9             JUDGE BAIRD:  I thank you very much indeed.

10             JUDGE PARKER:  Can I ask you one or two short matters,

11     Mr. Djordjevic.  The events at Racak, they were in the January, you

12     described how, I think, on the 18th of January you left Racak and that

13     area and went first to Pristina and then to Belgrade.  And you indicated

14     you'd left Racak as soon as the investigating team was able to enter the

15     mosque.  Do I correctly remember the essence of what you were saying?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Why was it that you understood that your work was

18     at an end, your responsibility, when the investigating judge and the

19     other members of the investigating team were able to enter the mosque?

20        A.   Well, because, at that point, the Serbian authorities were able

21     to verify for themselves what happened there and the consequences of what

22     had happened.  Because up until that moment, the Serbian authorities and

23     the judicial organs were -- they were not able to conduct the proper

24     procedure according to their authority and powers under the law.

25             JUDGE PARKER:  I'm not clear why their responsibilities only

Page 10154

 1     concerned the mosque.  From what we have understood from you and others,

 2     there'd been many people killed.  Why is it that the mosque was the only

 3     place they needed to visit?

 4        A.   I said that the judicial organs were able, in the area where

 5     armed operations had been carried out by placing this territory under the

 6     control of the Serbian forces, that the judicial organs in this entire

 7     area had an opportunity to conduct an on-site investigation and collect

 8     evidence.  However, the bodies of those who were killed were inside the

 9     mosque according to the reports available at the time.

10             However, on that occasion, the investigating judge conducted

11     other procedures on the field.  They found pieces of weapons that were

12     used in the attacks, they found cartridges and other evidence that they

13     were interested in.  That is a routine on-site investigation.  So they

14     had the whole territory under their control, and due to that they were

15     able to carry out all the procedures provided by the law.  As far as the

16     bodies were concerned, the bodies were already in the mosque because that

17     is what the report from the field submitted by policemen said.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  The investigation would normally involve not only

19     looking at dead bodies but also the locations where bodies were found,

20     scenes of any physical evidence, blood, cartridge cases, weapons,

21     et cetera, were located.  It would seem to me that all of those locations

22     would need to be visited in the course of an investigation.  Is that

23     something that you would agree with?

24        A.   Yes.  I'm sure that since the police had secured the area where

25     the anti-terrorist activities were carried out, that the investigating

Page 10155

 1     judge carried out all these procedures according to the law that you are

 2     talking about.  That means securing the area where anti-terrorist actions

 3     were taken and that they collected all the valuable evidence.  Since this

 4     territory was under the control of the police, the judicial organs were

 5     free to do whatever they thought suitable.

 6             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, that leaves me still unclear then why you

 7     felt you should leave or could leave the moment they had reached the

 8     mosque.  They had investigations that might take them to many parts of at

 9     least the village if not outside it.  Can you help me?

10        A.   This area where these clashes had taken place at that point in

11     time was under full control of the police forces.  The police forces were

12     ready and capable to ensure that a proper on-site investigation could be

13     completed.  There was no doubt that whatever the investigating judge and

14     the investigating team wanted to do, they were able to do.  And they

15     entered.  I think it was mentioned in their report.  They also entered

16     the trenches where fighting took place, where they found pieces of

17     weapons and cartridge and other evidence that was available on the ground

18     because until two or three days before that this area was under the

19     control of the KLA.

20             JUDGE PARKER:  Had you been into the village yourself in that few

21     days at any time?

22        A.   No, I have never been to the village.  I went as far as the

23     department, and that happened on the morning of the 18th.  I spent three

24     or four hours there while all this was going on, and after that I went

25     back to Pristina.  I spent some time in Pristina and then went back to

Page 10156

 1     Belgrade.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you for that.

 3             Just one other matter.  You mentioned the decision of the

 4     minister of the 16th of June, 1998, the effect of that being to combine

 5     both the public security department and the state security department of

 6     the ministry.  Have I made the decision of the minister clear enough to

 7     you?

 8             Had that been known to you at all beforehand, that that could

 9     occur or would occur?

10        A.   Yes, I became aware of that when the minister adopted this

11     decision and signed it.  At that moment, I knew that he had made up a

12     single body composed of representatives of the both departments, with the

13     task that was specified in the decision.

14             JUDGE PARKER:  What I was interested in is whether this was

15     something you had expected or understood might happen before the minister

16     reached his decision.

17        A.   At one point, after my decision was issued, a few days after that

18     he decided to set up the staff as described in the order.  I had not

19     known that he was going to set up this kind of staff.  He had an overall

20     insight into the situation.  He knew what the obligations were.  He knew

21     what the capabilities of both departments were.  So it was up to him,

22     because he didn't ask me for any opinion or advice, the staff was already

23     there, and I had my decision -- he, therefore, decided to combine both

24     departments and to have a single leadership and a single staff

25     co-ordinating the activities of the both departments.  This is how he set

Page 10157

 1     up this staff, and a year later - that is to say towards the end of May

 2     or June 1999 - he set up another staff.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  Your own decision I think you said was on the

 4     10th of June.  Was I correct in understanding that it was really a

 5     routine decision appointing or re-appointing because the former staff had

 6     served a year and needed to be the subject of a fresh appointment?

 7        A.   In principle, after the expiration of one year, this staff had to

 8     be re-shuffled and new personnel appointed.  The decision about who was

 9     going to be at the head of this staff, regardless of the fact that I

10     signed this decision, I needed to obtain approval from the minister and

11     his consent about who was going to be at the head of the staff, in which

12     he was particularly interested.  Only after having obtained his approval

13     was I able to issue the decision and to appoint the person as stipulated

14     there.

15             Therefore, I wasn't and I couldn't have adopted this decision on

16     my own.  He had to endorse it.  And based on that, I issued a decision

17     and everything that went with it.  However, a few days after that he

18     realised that this should probably be organised in a different manner.

19     He drafted a decision according to his own assessment.  And it was a good

20     decision in any way because both departments focused and concentrated

21     their capabilities on one single task.  So to all intents and purposes,

22     he invalidated my decision just a few days later, and his decision taken

23     on the 16th of June remained in force.

24             JUDGE PARKER:  You had proposed General Sreten Lukic to head the

25     staff when you made your appointments of the 10th of June; is that

Page 10158

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3             JUDGE PARKER:  So the minister and you had similar appreciations

 4     of the capacity of General Lukic?

 5        A.   Well, yes.  He was an experienced police official.  He had

 6     graduated from the Military Academy.  He held an appropriately high rank. 

 7     He was someone who had been in Kosovo before.  He was a prominent leader,

 8  and he fulfilled all the requirements to be appointed the head of the staff.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  You hadn't discussed with the head of the other

10     department that it could be a good step to take to combine the two for

11     the purpose of combatting terrorism?

12        A.   No, no, I hadn't discussed it.  These were two completely

13     separate departments.  The only person above the both was the minister.

14     Therefore, it was his decision, it was his view of the situation.  And

15     because of that, I didn't discuss this topic with the chief of the state

16     security.

17             JUDGE PARKER:  Did you think it was a good idea?

18        A.   In view of the complexity of the task that lay ahead, at any rate

19     it would have been useful to make use of the capabilities and capacities

20     of both departments in order to fight the terrorists.  I thought that

21     both our departments should make good use of their capabilities in order

22     to confront and counter terrorism.

23             JUDGE PARKER:  Well, you see that it would be a good idea.  You

24     hadn't suggested it?

25        A.   The minister had more information.  I didn't have the state

Page 10159

 1     security intelligence about the situation, that is to say the information

 2     that they had at their disposal.  They provided this information directly

 3     to the minister, therefore he was much better informed about the whole

 4     problem.  All I knew was what I learned through my department and

 5     relevant reports.  In any case, he was fully informed about all the

 6     problems and all the angles of all the problems; and pursuant to that, he

 7     decided to establish such an organisational form involving both the

 8     departments in combatting terrorism in Kosovo.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  And it was a decision, you say, that wasn't

10     discussed with you at all before it happened?

11        A.   No, no, this wasn't discussed with me.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Even though it affected very significantly the

13     department of which you were head?

14        A.   Yes, you're right, but the top senior official was the minister,

15     which made him responsible for both departments and the ministry as a

16     whole.  The ministry as a whole had a single task to combat terrorism and

17     terrorist activities down there.

18             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much for that.

19             The process of questioning you is at an end.  You may now, of

20     course, return to your normal place in the courtroom.  Thank you for

21     that.  The officer will assist you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for giving

23     me this opportunity to review this whole issue in such great detail.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE PARKER:  Are you able to hear us now?  Is that better?

Page 10160

 1             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE PARKER:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Your microphone, please, Judge.

 4             JUDGE PARKER:  -- or discussed at this point?

 5             What I asked was that there -- was there any matter that needs to

 6     be raised or discussed at this point from your point of view?

 7             MR. DJURDJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  If you can set

 8     aside your decision banning contact with the accused.

 9             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Stamp, any matter that needs to be raised at this point?

11             MR. STAMP:  No.  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

13             One of the advantages of the accused being able to finish his

14     evidence is that there is no longer any reason for him to be out of

15     communication with you.  You may, of course, now have normal contact with

16     him during the break.

17             Clearly there is no prospect of us commencing the other witness

18     you had planned for today.  We won't commence that witness, so that you

19     may each relax.

20             We will now adjourn.  We wish all present in court the

21     compliments of this Christmas and New Year season.  We will resume, as we

22     have indicated, in January.  Because of court times and travel

23     commitments, unless you want me in here having just got off a long plane

24     flight and not very attentive, it will not be feasible to sit as we had

25     planned on the Tuesday, the 19th.  So we will resume sitting on

Page 10161

 1     Wednesday, 20 January.  That should give all counsel an adequate time to

 2     look into the preparation of their respective cases, and in particular

 3     Defence counsel the opportunity to plan ahead for their witnesses as they

 4     need to come.  And I would hope that opportunity will be taken of that

 5     slightly extended break to ensure that things move smoothly and quickly

 6     when we resume.

 7             With that having been said, we now adjourn until 20 January of

 8     next year.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.25 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

11                           January, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.